ИИ и его ВЛИЯНИЕ на будущее: сценарий, о котором боятся говорить | Беседы с Маргуланом

0:00Starting a conversation , not sure how it ends , let’s go with the flow . Remove the bottleneck , and you get the internet right away . These guys were the first to start buying a person’s shares . Restrict , control , possess . The power lies with those least invested in the result . The monkeys caught you and put you in a

0:19cage . Order in technology and chaos in the mind . Ku . Starting our next podcast . Good day , friends . We are starting our next podcast . This is not just an interview , these are conversations , a format I borrowed from the ancient Greeks , when philosophers sat down and chatted about everything . And for these conversations

0:41, I invite very interesting people each time , and we discuss interesting topics . We are absolutely not experts , we don't claim to hold the ultimate truth or that we can make definitive assertions and so on . But we talk about

0:56what interests us , what’s on our minds , what hurts , or what we dream about . And I think it will be interesting for you , too , to see from the outside what entrepreneurs talk about , especially people from different countries , with different levels of involvement in various technological processes . And even more so today , I

1:16have very interesting guests with me . These are the Liberman brothers , David and Daniil . Very interesting characters . If you want to dive deeper , definitely check out their interviews . They have many interviews on YouTube . You can see what they are up to . In short , these are very cool guys , very

1:34interesting guys who are worth talking to . I’ve wanted to talk to them for a long time . Cameras happened to be here , cameras happened to be here , and we happened to meet in the studio , which is , of course , incredible luck . So , let's start our conversation . We will

1:50talk a lot about artificial intelligence . We will talk about the future , the future of the economy , meaning , values , where we are headed , where we might end up , good and bad scenarios , and what these guys are doing . These guys are working on very interesting things , especially , you know , what caught my attention is that

2:11you have an understanding of things like what attention is , and managing attention . This is game mechanics . This is game design . Game mechanics is one of my favorite topics . Attention management is one of my favorite topics . Social dynamics . I am very interested in these things , and distributed computing , blockchain , the technology

2:33itself , the possibilities these technologies provide , really interest me . And these guys have experience in all these areas . And I am sure it will be very interesting . At the very least , I’m already interested . So , let’s

2:47follow our format — please introduce yourselves . Who is the older or younger one , how do you usually introduce yourselves ? In terms of wisdom , David is older by 800 years , and I’m older by a year , literally one orbit of the planet . Chronologically . Chronologically , Yes , I see . Chronologically , you are the older one .

3:06Okay . Well , all right . Hello . Hello , peace be upon your home . We are the Lieberman brothers . I think we can introduce each other as a pair , because we’ve spent almost our entire lives together since he was born . Ever since he was born , we’ve lived in the same room and

3:25slept in the same bed . Since childhood , that’s been our format of existence . So essentially , you only had one year of separation . One year of separation . Yes . I was waiting . I arrived earlier and waited . Plus two Vipassanas . And two more . And two more Vipassanas . Yes . Yes , that’s another separation

3:43too . Yes . And we are two brothers from a family of nine children . Nine ? A very large family in terms of brothers and sisters . Our eldest brother is 70 . He’ll be listening and will scold me . Five , I think , maybe six already . Wait , wait . Nine , and that’s from one

4:02family ? Same parents , in one marriage of our mom and dad , six of us are near the same age . Literally , we six are close in age , and there were three children before that . Oh , wow . Those three are older than us , and our eldest brother is approximately the same age as our mom , maybe a year

4:16of difference . And so , there is this super interesting dynamic in our family . But his mom , she perceives all of us as her children , that’s how she treats us . So , we actually have a very close-knit family in terms of dynamics . We are all very close to each other . Dad organized it so that we are all

4:37very close friends , we constantly spend time together and work together . Out of the six of us , five have been working together since around 2005 , I think . I think at about 13 , David and I — well , who knows , maybe 12 or 13 , I don't remember — we suddenly woke up and

4:57realized that what interests us most in life are social dynamics . Uh-huh . And that it seems to us that the world is organized in a very strange way , when humanity is already flying into space , landing on the moon , and so on , but on the streets , there is , excuse me , such crap .

5:17Uh-huh . And this contrast seemed very strange to us . Why are we supposedly a super-developed civilization , yet at the same time , such a mess is going on ? Well , relatively speaking , there’s order in technology and a mess in people's heads . Yes . Yes . Where does this mess come from ? Ruination in the minds . Moreover ,

5:35we observed the dynamics having been born in the Soviet Union with a sort of stability , then the collapse . And , from this collapse , we actually saw how the dynamics of this mess in people's heads changed in a single year . It was seemingly stable , then suddenly it became total , complete hell . Where

5:52you’d find dead bodies on the streets in that Moscow of the nineties , and all that . And it was a very strange dynamic . And within it , we realized that what was most interesting for us to work on , as we reasoned , was the efficiency of social interactions . Cool . Cool . I say this very often . You know

6:11, success is , in fact , moving up the social ladder , so , uh , well , it is social dynamics , essentially . Yes . Yes . And , uh , having encountered attempts to talk to grown-ups back then in the early 2000s , we had just finished school and already went to try to talk to thirty-to-forty-year-old

6:29entrepreneurs about how we saw where it would make sense for society , for humanity , to move . We were faced with the fact that no one took us seriously at all . And then we changed direction

6:41to deciding to build technological companies . Uh , because we saw that Sergey Brin and Larry Page were changing the world , Google was making information accessible to everyone , through a search mechanism . We thought , you can actually create technologies that change society sociologically in general .

7:01Wait a minute , look , Danik , are you both programmers by education ? I actually studied for 3 years in medical school , but then switched back to Computer Science . In the end , by finished education , we are both mathematician-programmers . You are both mathematician-programmers . Uh-huh , got it . Yes . But one still needs to understand

7:21that this all happened at a time when education didn't really help you become a programmer . A programmer , in the main , became a self-taught person . Uh-huh . Most of the things that we eventually implemented , we learned , of course , not from not what the teachers taught us , but from what we picked up ourselves .

7:44And in reality , that is how it happens in life . University usually only gives the first kick or , relatively speaking , a vector for the direction in which a person develops further . Therefore , well , it's not surprising , I haven't seen people ready for any meaningful activity after university . Usually , either a person has a sense of purpose

8:05and they drop it and go on their own , or they just dig in that direction and eventually become a professional in that field . But most importantly , I realized , your vector , that you are engineers , mathematicians , programmers . Yes , we just decided to realize our vector of direction through this profession . In reality , our vector is

8:25social technology . And it's mixed with our education , with what we were good at . We started programming very early . We had a computer at home very early , because both our parents were experimental scientists in neuroscience , what is it , biophysics . In biophysics , they studied how neurons work . And from all of this ,

8:50from the aesthetics of the scientific world , we drew our own aesthetics . It seemed to us that technology is the most interesting thing you can do . At the same time , the vector we always wanted to have in life is social technology . How to make it happen ? That is a cool symbiosis , actually . And

9:09that is probably your uniqueness : that you are driven by social sciences , but by your framework of thinking , you are more like mathematicians and programmers , which are deterministic sciences that clearly imply cause-and-effect relationships , a clear understanding of logic , a clear understanding of structures , and so on .

9:30That is interesting , this symbiosis , especially with scientist parents and so on . I think a lot about social dynamics , about people , about how to achieve results , goal setting , and so on . And here I have a question . Look , when ... we talk about ourselves , we

9:53describe ourselves , and we are at the stage where I ask you to introduce yourselves ; we people ... I have a saying that I often repeat to myself : regarding the past , people measure themselves by their past , that is , by their results . And it is easier for us to perceive this , because since

10:12childhood we have been trained to answer in categories of results . What have you achieved ? Who are you ? by profession . And those are the results . I am an astronaut , I am a scientist , I achieved this and that . And I say that before the future , we are all nobodies , because no genius is different from an

10:27ordinary person in terms of predicting the future . But judging by past results is a familiar pattern of thinking ; we already understand how to distinguish people by the color of their pants , you know , from the movie Kin-dza-dza !. And so , I would like to hear you tell my subscribers about your specific results

10:48, about what you have done and where , so they can have a general idea of what you do and what your achievements are . Because otherwise , we’ll jump straight into a discussion and won’t establish an understanding of who we’re communicating with , who we’re

11:05talking to . Our profession could be described as company builders . As for what's called entrepreneurship , one of our notable achievements was building a company that worked on computer vision technology for avatars and sold it to

11:27Snapchat for $ 60 million . I heard a story about that right away — Egor Zhudi told me that you had dinner with the founder of Snapchat and had a really good chat there . The next day , the CEO of Snapchat called and said , " We want to buy your company for $ 60

11:49million . " You said , " We don't actually have one yet . " They replied , " Well , create one . " Then you created it , and they bought it for $ 60 million . No , that’s a massive oversimplification . No , I just gave you the short version . Yeah , yeah . We were

12:03building a company , and in reality , Snap did end up buying it very quickly ; there was indeed a landmark dinner with the creator and the CEO of Snap . Right . Though , between the dinner and the

12:24final acquisition , there were months ,

12:27a few months , and then another few months to close the deal . It's clear that from a storytelling perspective , it's easier to collapse it all into one moment , and then the story becomes this instantaneous thing . Well , in the States , anyone can consider themselves to be running a company just by opening a separate bank

12:48account ; you can treat it as a separate company even without incorporating , technically and legally it's seen as you running a separate business already . And in that sense , we were conducting some activity , and we were thinking about a product . We saw how the technologies we had worked on before — around 2008 , 2011 , 2012 , 2013 —

13:09suddenly became relevant again 3 or 4 years later , after we’d done computer animation before , so we decided we’d create new technology in that direction . That’s when we completely by chance

13:23met the founder of Snapchat , and he invited us to join them . We decided to be quite open about what we were doing and how we were doing it . And he liked it so much , and the fact that none of his people were thinking about it or doing it the same way , that right then

13:39and there he said , " I want to buy them . " Bring the lawyers here , we’re going to sign it right now . We said , " Whoa , whoa , whoa , there’s nothing to sign yet . " Theoretically well , that's great . We'll organize it . A technical organism . This is a unique feature of Silicon

13:54Valley , the fact that everyone knows only a tiny percentage of companies become these so-called unicorns . Unlike the rest of the world , where out of 100 companies , only one survives , here , one in three companies has an

14:17exit . Uh-huh . Because major tech companies realized long ago that the only way to

14:27stay ahead and continue innovating is to acquire small teams that have proven they can make a breakthrough . It was a very interesting time . After that , we were product directors at Snap for 5

14:48years . We learned a lot about the next generation and how they interact with social products . After that , perhaps the next highlight . We created a company that made AI to optimize other

15:09companies ' software . This company was valued at $ 200 million . And we also created a holding company , which combined all our investments , all our incubated products , and our future for the next 30 years .

15:31And this company , in the end , was valued at $ 400 million by leading Silicon Valley investors . We’ve gone over the results . But as I said , for those interested , definitely watch the many interviews with the Liberman brothers on YouTube ; it’s a very interesting story where you’ll

15:51see the results and so on . So , I think that’s okay . You have the general picture . Let’s move on to talk about interesting things , topics , and so on . I’m interested in facts from your biography . The fund . The point is this ,

16:12guys . These guys were the first to start buying human stocks . Buying human

16:18stocks . Basically , the main idea , the investment thesis , is that if we find a good person or , say , a racehorse to bet on , we want to place a bet and then get a percentage of all their future income . Is that the right way to put it ? Uh , yes .

16:34That’s accurate , yes . Uh-huh . I initially wanted to delve into that side , but then I realized one thing . Considering where artificial intelligence is taking us , and where robots are taking us , and so on . And given that artificial intelligence and robots will practically take over all economic value creation , it feels as if

16:54all that will be left for people is to create meaning for themselves and somehow , uh , cope with their freedom and well-being . I mean , we have everything . Our main goals have always been survival and reproduction , but we don't have to worry about that anymore . And we need to create meaning . Does

17:16this idea collapse then , or do you see some other continuation ? Look , in that regard , it's a very interesting thing . We actually thought about this idea . It's been around for many years , but we launched it as a fund four years ago . I've always had the same idea in my

17:37head , so it really triggered me quite strongly . It's interesting that , just now you said , I have to make a disclaimer , you mentioned that we were the first to start doing this . We aren't the first to try , but there were many attempts , and we even met with at least three well-known American entrepreneurs who

17:54tried and failed in the past . You could say that we also haven't succeeded yet , but we'll see , because we invested in 13 people , and so far they are doing very well . And in that sense , we might get our capital back , multiplied with a very good return , uh , in the future .

18:11But the thought itself — why we decided four years ago to commit to it and try to work it out philosophically , define it technically and legally , implement it , and try to convince investors that we need to act this way — was precisely in anticipation that , well , within a horizon of 30-40 years , it might turn

18:32out that work will no longer be necessary . Mm-hmm . And how will we , and it won't be instantaneous , it will be a

18:41transition , say , we could talk about , I don't know , 5 % of jobs every year or couple of years leaving the economy , replaced by AI and robots . And that means , well , how long , I don't know , 20-30 years will it take to replace everyone . Mm-hmm . Yes . And since this period of time is ,

19:01after all , a whole generation or more , Mm-hmm . then this transitional period could be marked by a different format of interaction between previous generations and current generations . Those who have already accumulated wealth and have funds with large amounts of capital , versus those who have just arrived and must create this future — because someone eventually has

19:23to create this future in 30 years , where there is total abundance and no human labor . It will be a transition period , and within it , we either collide with a conflict , an intergenerational one , and it’s brewing more and more . It’s all going to be Gen Z ; you can see how much they

19:40differ in their perception of what work is , what hiring is , and so on . Or , it could be navigated very harmoniously . It seemed to us that shifting toward investing in these future generations is a harmonious transition into that future . Uh-huh . Over these 30 years , they would actually allow the new generation not

20:01to be so stressed , and for the old generation , the previous one , to invest their money in such a way that they create a future in 30 years , where no one needs anything anymore , and everyone has everything .

20:11Yes , yes . Yes . I mean , in reality , any companies we invest in are essentially proxies for human talent . Absolutely . Meaning , people within a certain legal framework form economic value , and we sort of receive a share of that economic value created by the talents united by this legal shell .

20:33You're essentially tearing it apart and saying , " Why do we need a proxy or intermediary in the form of a corporate legal shell ? We want to be shareholders directly in talented people and not bring on board those deadbeats who don't generate economic value . " Ah , roughly , yes , there is also this moment where , when

20:53you immerse yourself in this future , this future of total abundance , Uh-huh . in which , perhaps and very likely , there is no such thing as an economy in terms of exchange , exchange of labor , and , accordingly , exchange of money . It

21:14is very different . And at that moment , people for some reason stop at the idea that , well , then there simply won't be work , there won't be human labor , but corporations might disappear even sooner , right ? So this world , on the whole , is vastly different . If one considers that in this future , there is

21:38no value in people , then the value in the stocks being traded is also brought into question . But since , most likely , at that moment , at this point of singularity , we will be transitioning , not arriving instantly , but transitioning , and this

21:58transition will be carried out with acceleration , There will be a moment when the value of certain assets , especially the value of specific talent , will skyrocket . We are witnessing it right now , yes , when companies like Meta , Facebook , right ,

22:19they no longer feel shy , about buying talent for a billion dollars . And before , everyone used to pretend that it was about some company , that you had to buy a company . Now they don't even pretend anymore . If you are the very person who will take that final step toward creating this universal intelligence ,

22:39superintelligence , what is your value ? To the economy , are you worth being bought from one company

22:48to another for a billion ? Look , I’ve thought about this too . Back in the day , remember , I mentioned this at the start of our talk , why did I hit a wall and stop ? I saw two things . For me , well , as a practitioner , the mechanism of implementation is important . The idea is cool , the idea

23:06is beautiful . I always , in general , I love talented people . I even had a fund at one time called Kometa . It stands for Communicative Manager of Talent . That’s the acronym . I took the best talented university graduates and just helped them , helped them , helped them , hoping for , well , gratitude at the time

23:23, yes . But the point is , I thought if I created such a talent pipeline that would come out of my fund , sooner or later it would help somewhere and so on . Later , I realized one thing . The shell or the toolkit we have today , such as legal laws and so on , it’s a

23:44non-working scheme . I realized for myself that there must be two things . Either a social credit system , like in China , where there is a specific social identification number for a person , and through it , you can track their labor contribution , activity , what they do , crimes , their risk profile , and so on .

24:06That is one option . Or the second option is decentralized tools , decentralized finance , decentralized identity , anonymized , detached from the person . We can't fully get away from

24:18the tracking , otherwise we would have to brand a person , or like in the movie In Time , a counter , right ? And I stopped there . Very often , some good things that could happen for humanity are stopped because this same tool in

24:40the hands of a centralized power Uh-huh . Could be very unpleasant . Uh-huh . One such example is street cameras used to stop crime for social credit in China . Well , take cameras for example ; on one hand , everyone understands that if

25:00American CCTV , if cameras are everywhere on the street , then there will be less crime . But on the other hand , if there are cameras everywhere on the street , then it’s scary that this Big Brother will control us all . Although it is believed

25:17that you either have one or the other . Either you have security , or you have freedom . Freedom , right ? But decentralization shows that you can have both of these things at the same time . If all these cameras are placed somewhere , but each one is the responsibility of an individual citizen , then there is no way to monitor

25:38everyone . Essentially , it's a law where when everyone is responsible for everything , nobody is responsible . Or you could say , when everyone controls everyone , nobody controls anyone .

25:51Yes , you know , like it was in villages , in small communities , where in general , people's awareness of each other meant there weren't really extreme cases of negative behavior within the society , because everyone knew everyone and somehow they shaped each other . As soon

26:11as we became big cities , a large society where we don't know who these people are who pass by us constantly , that's when the need for this rating appears . Well , because anonymization of the individual occurs . When a person enters the city , they feel like a small , anonymous microbe . In a village ,

26:29everyone knows exactly : this is Vasya Petrov , son of so-and-so , grandson of so-and-so , related to so-and-so , and so on . A very high level of personalization , yes . And there , accordingly , there is immediately a trail of reputation of the grandfather , great-grandfather , father , and so on .

26:44And , well , there is real value in that . When a person enters the city , they become anonymized . Well , that's exactly what you're talking about , it's reputation , among other things . It lives and exists in a certain generational line . And , in general , reputation is a very important mechanism . What David is talking about

27:02is that this was impossible . What we are really talking about , as a variant of how it would be possible to realize both of these things simultaneously — both freedom and security in the form of cameras , is not just that every person is responsible for their own camera ; we needed to reach a state , and we have

27:23reached it , where the camera itself is a participant . In today’s world , where computer vision and image recognition exist , and this has existed not just since yesterday , but has been a properly working technology for 20 years already . In this world , a camera that recognizes what is happening in an

27:43image can flag it and send it to the person responsible for that camera . Moreover , you can take turns . Today I am responsible for this camera , tomorrow someone else is , so there is no abuse . Such systems work better . As a society , we have developed something very important . Judges , juries .

28:05Uh-huh . A cool , working system where 11 , or however many , 12-13 people completely unknown to the situation , randomly selected from a million , make a decision . And it turned out that this decision is often better than the decision of a professional judge or the

28:25justice system . And this same thing , this same mechanism , by assembling pieces of what we have , could be done with cameras in case the camera notices something , it has a trigger . Right now , it sends it to a terminal , where an officer sits , watches , and makes a

28:42decision . They have a lot of power because they have access to all the cameras . Instead , if it came to . Today I am responsible , today is my hour , my social responsibility to sit and wait for the scanner to receive a message . I see what is happening . I agree or disagree with the camera and its decision : " Oh ,

29:00indeed , someone is stealing something from someone , or someone attacked someone , or there is an accident here , or something fell , something happened . " I agree with this tag and then send the task so that the necessary , I don't know , law enforcement , firefighters , ambulance , or whoever else can respond

29:17to this . And do I understand correctly that , for example , an image from Argentina comes to you , because it is absolutely irrelevant to you who the person is , you only see the actions , and their appearance tells you nothing ? So you won't be able to track your loved ones or anyone else . So there is

29:36no danger of this " Big Brother . " If we live in anonymization , we need to use it . You send it to someone who knows nothing about this situation . They look and say : " Yes , an accident happened here . " " This person cut off this person , the camera recognized everything correctly . " This is ,

29:51yes , and this is exactly what we are observing now in many areas , and in particular , we are observing this in the field of artificial intelligence . What are we presented with ? That we have only one choice or another , either this rigid , rigid centralization and possibly a lack of freedom , or either

30:14unsafe , so we need to avoid this . You know , it’s that eternal struggle between the projectile and the armor , offense and defense , yin and yang , and so on . I just want to highlight this for my subscribers too , that for you , this is probably even a sort of karma . Your last name is Liberman , which means

30:34" free people . " Well , it translates from German as free people , yes . And you’re always advocating for decentralization , for freedom , for preserving freedom without losing security . Yes . So , this choice , or rather , with the technology humanity has now , it can actually be turned into " and . " And this

30:58concerns not just cameras , not just surveillance ; it also applies to finance , computing , and investments , and so on and so forth . Did I present the framework correctly ? Yes . And we , and we actually , well , Danya mentioned that from a fairly early age we started thinking about how

31:19society could solve problems , solve its problems in a different way . And for us , there was always this potential of decentralized systems , Uh-huh . and how they could take us to a completely different level , where you don’t have to make the compromise that is constantly ,

31:40yes . being suggested from all sides . And this permeated many of the

31:45subsequent projects we did , and some successful technologies we created , they also used that same principle : when you distribute responsibility , for example , when we were doing animation , there were so many calculations . At the time , it required performing such a

32:07volume of data operations that the servers and hardware back then couldn't really handle . And so at one point , for a bit of a joint PR campaign , IBM sent us their latest , fastest servers and data storage .

32:28We had a lot of animation files . It was all very fun . A whole room full of servers . Yeah . And we launched our process , our software that created this animation . And everything came to a halt , it didn't work , because there was this one centralized box that

32:48was supposedly the fastest , but it couldn't keep up . At all . So we made a simple decision : each frame of the animation would be handled by a separate machine . A simple machine in our office , not a specialized one , essentially just off-the-shelf .

33:10And this system worked incredibly well , incredibly fast , without any stops , and at the same time , it was much cheaper , so in every sense , it was just better . And this , again , manifested itself both in our professional career and in

33:31philosophy in many cases , when it seems to you that you can do either this or that , but in reality there is another solution that allows you to avoid making that compromise . And I think that , in general , humanity is

33:51facing most of the problems we see humanity facing , especially now in a very changing world , and we see this as a solution there ,

34:05you know , I have many hobbies . One of my hobbies is systems theory , how systems work , right . And I especially like the concept of emergent properties in systems theory . In fact , we humans strongly underestimate emergent

34:26properties . Let me give you a simple example . In general , emergent properties are closest to biological systems . Let me give you this example . There are generally two ways in nature . One way is organization , so to speak , the so-called artificial system , where a person wants to intervene and organize everything , build everything .

34:48And the other is how nature works ; it does everything based on self-organization . I used to organize many free trips , and a bunch of jeeps would follow me . The biggest trip was 32 km long , with 1,200 people in jeeps . And we drove in a convoy for these 32 km . And what is interesting is that

35:09what I liked most was the first trip , when I just shouted on Facebook : " Guys , I'm going here , the route is this , the dates are those , whoever wants to , join in . " And 32 people joined me . And we had such a great time . They each cooked their own food , had their own tents ,

35:25and so on . We treated each other , played the guitar , and so on . So cool . Then I started to intervene ; I saw that the women had no toilet , so I started bringing a toilet . You know , like a tent-style one , and then , since it was the steppe , I

35:41started bringing a shower , and the complaints started pouring in . Why is it swaying from the wind ? Then , when you sit there with a flashlight , the toilet walls are transparent , then the shower makes a mess in the mud there . Why don't you make a base , the water is cold , and so on . And I got so much hate

36:00, even though I was spending 100-200 thousand bucks on each trip , just giving it away essentially for people's comfort . Then I remembered a situation . I was in Bangladesh several times in the nineties , and once I lived there for a month and a half for business . And there at the intersections , those

36:20rickshaws , since they are three-wheeled , get stuck in traffic . And the police walk around in some places and hit them directly with a stick . And in others , I see , they must crash so often , there's no police at other intersections , but people somehow sense each other's behavior from a distance and don't

36:39create traffic jams . They drive in some way , this whole crowd of millions there , just to imagine , take the Almaty region , if you take that territory , but 150 million people lived there at that time . And somehow people , on an intuitive level , start organizing themselves , you know , like ants , and

37:01the intersection clears up , they somehow manage to let each other pass and so on . And then I realized , this is the emergent property , the emergent property of biological systems for self-organization . And it's surprising that I later began to notice that this property arises not only in biological

37:22systems , it arises in any system . And when you were talking about distributed computing networks , and how it's more efficient than a single server chassis , that's exactly about emergent properties . And this is a fascinating

37:36topic if you dig in this direction . And let's dig in this direction , in this direction . Do you know that AI as such , the current version , right ? the current current version of what we call , so-called large language models . And by the way , we must very specifically designate that it is

37:56precisely thanks to language models that we have such a strong breakthrough today , because transformers led to one level of breakthrough , and within them , another subcategory , such as language models , that is , transformers applied to language , led to an even greater breakthrough . And they themselves were created with a

38:19thesis . That is , the person who — the people who invented them , they were created with the thesis that properties would arise Uh-huh . thanks to scaling . So this was not obvious at all . This was a certain intuition . If we do this same thing but

38:35bigger , properties will emerge there that we cannot even expect right now . So the emergence of properties within AI , it was conceived intuitively . Well , you know , this is logical intuition , it's mathematical intuition . It was conceived in mathematical intuition , and they applied it , and applied it with great

38:55difficulty , because to get there , one had to spend billions of dollars . Yes , okay . Hundreds of millions up to a billion dollars to discover that indeed , when we do this on such a scale , here there's no property , no property , no property , no property , and then it appeared .

39:13And this is how from the scale and the power of this system , suddenly this property appeared , which emerged unexpectedly . And after that , it became clear that you can keep adding more and more and wait for it to appear again . And again it will appear . And that's how they emerge , with these spikes . And so far ,

39:32everything about AI is just an assumption , right up until the appearance of this General Artificial Intelligence . I understand why they are scaling up data centers and Stargate projects and so on right now . Well , it's clear : it's power , computing power , and energy ; obviously , it's needed to support this computing capacity . And , uh , we are

39:53indeed right to expect , uh , a new emergent property . There is another direction where , ah , you know , ah , this world is built in such a way that it is non-linear . Non-linear . And I think this linear extrapolation of scaling up power will lead to it becoming the main constraint , because I have this rule :

40:13where your strength lies , your weakness lies too . And they will end up turning their strength into their weakness . And this is where I was thinking that we need — well , this is just my amateur opinion , just kitchen table talk . Kitchen table talk .

40:30We’re all amateurs here , just some with a bit more experience , others with less . Yes , I see the potential for AGI not in linear scaling of power , but in the scaling of various technologies . For example , we are talking about linguistic transformers right now , but

40:51I personally like diffusion models . A diffusion model is different ; it works in reverse , simply removing noise and , in a sense , revealing what is needed . Ah , it’s applied to visual graphics , to visuals , but the same could be applied to sound and so on . In essence ,

41:12it seems to me that any system creates two things . First , an emergent property . Second , a synergistic property . Regarding synergistic properties . Yes , let me add a little something to your knowledge base about how AI works . And for our viewers , I think it will be very interesting to know that the main

41:33breakthrough in generation systems — video and images that we have now , where we type whatever we want and it creates a video indistinguishable from reality — happened when they crossbred image diffusion models and large language models ; they were literally intertwined with each other . And it

41:55turned out that having a semantic description of the world plus this , ah , diffuse definition of points in space , which was supposed to lead to the emergence of an image — when mixed together , they produce an incredible new emergent result . That , right there , that — that happened right after the first

42:16release of ChatGPT , back at version three or even before three . It was Dota , Dota 2 , something like that . They released it and showed for the first time how an image emerges from text . And at the same time , another paper came out about how they merged these two models together . And people noticed

42:31the first one , like " Wow , how cool , you can really see an image from text , " while missing the other one entirely . These papers were released simultaneously , but the real breakthrough was due to the mix , not that other thing . Yes , yes , yes , yes , yes . It was thanks

42:45to the mix . By the way , I also liked another study , where it turned out that for calculations , well , for tokens , pixel input was better and more efficient than word input . Machines don't need words like humans do ; for a machine , pixels are cheaper . It's cheaper to calculate using pixels

43:07than words or tokens . Ah , very interesting . But I'm afraid we'll get into too much complexity . We can talk about it . Actually , I'm very interested in it , I do prompting myself , and it really drives me . Why ? Because it's not so much about the technical capability it provides , or digging into things , I

43:28just see how it works in real life , in other areas . Because this world , in fact , consists of underlying laws . They apply across physics and chemistry . The laws of physics , chemistry , and mathematics also work on a social level . They work in social dynamics too . As Nikola Tesla put it well , the whole

43:47world is an ocean of energy . And all movement is just the transformation of one type of energy into another . It’s the same if you look at the quantum level and so on . Let's talk . So. I like what you are doing right now . Explain it in simple words . I figured it out . I’m just

44:05driven by what you are doing . It's really cool . Specifically , the shift from useless computations . in cryptocurrencies , to a constructive path , let’s call it a constructive path , or one that’s beneficial . Tell

44:21us about your project , Race , and the philosophy behind it . We came to this project from another side ; we came to it precisely with the AI problem . Uh-huh . Yes . That as soon as you start digging a little into this topic , you generally

44:43come to terms with the fact that the future is coming where AI will be very powerful , and when you can even imagine a future where any work I can produce , whether intellectual or physical , AI will actually produce it better

45:03better than me , better , cheaper . faster . And so there is this future , and it could be , uh , negative , yes , like when we imagine a dystopian world where this power is highly concentrated and used constantly against us . But one could imagine a world of

45:23abundance . Uh-huh . Where everyone has everything that we would ever want to consume . What remains is this pure creation of meaning and the choice of exactly what creating meaning , consuming meaning , and limits on how to use it , and , well , kind of restraining oneself . And anyone who is currently working on

45:45artificial intelligence is in this bipolar state where , on one hand , it's scary where this could lead , and on the other , it's an incredible opportunity that humanity has never had before . Not just an incredible opportunity , it’s inevitable , by all appearances . Yes . And we were in circles , these circles

46:06are called AI Safety . These are people who think about negative scenarios and how to arrive at positive ones . And among this group , we were a bit of an odd voice . Usually , everything there is very negative ; the thoughts are immediately about how it’s very dangerous for humanity . But we were in

46:29a camp that is somewhat more positive . Uh-huh . About what's coming . But we’re not positive because we don't see the threat , but because we see that most threats only happen in scenarios where this incredible power is too concentrated in some circles , in the

46:52hands of some people who for some reason think they will be able to control it . Even though , by definition , we are saying it will be smarter , better , faster . cheaper . There . And while in these reflections , we admitted to ourselves that the world

47:13began moving very quickly toward the opposite scenario , where a very small number of companies and a very small number of states representing those companies — America , China , America , China , with incredible speed are dominating , monopolizing . making it

47:34impossible for others to participate in this world of abundance . Uh-huh . And observing this , we had a very We can , of course , imagine that they will simply create a world of abundance for everyone and distribute it to everyone equally , evenly , brotherly , and so on , but it’s doubtful . Well ,

47:54we don't see that dynamic being very strong right now . The risk is very high . And so all are equal , but some are more equal . Yes . And we suddenly had such a feeling that we need to do something ,

48:10on one hand , to prevent this scenario and reach a scenario in which this technology , from which all people will benefit on Earth . At first , as mathematicians and programmers , we just sat down to think mathematically and from an engineering perspective , whether it is

48:30possible to create what is being trained by these large companies now , can this be done in a decentralized way ? That was , I don't know , three years ago , when we suddenly realized that we needed to focus on this direction . And back then the logic was far from being there . It wasn't obvious at all .

48:47Everyone thought that no , on the contrary , centralization . The bigger , the closer , the denser , the better , and the further away , the worse . To the point that it's impossible . But in reality , research and mathematics show that no . Decentralization will work very well , but anyone looking at what is happening now

49:08understands that there are fewer and fewer chances left , because the so-called hyperscalers are building these centralized data centers at an incredible speed . Yes , that in general , most people we even spoke to on this topic said : " Well ,

49:29maybe we can already we just need to think that the world will be like this . These five companies own everything , they do everything . And what are we supposed to do in it ? Let's just think about it . " Yes . And this is the thesis of venture funds , this is the thesis of entrepreneurs . I can't do

49:44anything about it anymore . I just need to think , what can I do in this world ? And if we look at the state , then only the thought : can we get a quota so we get a little GPU ? And if we get some , then I will clarify for the subscribers . It's just that right now the bottleneck

50:03in AI development is computing power , namely Nvidia boards . Nvidia is essentially a monopolist . with its technology and its standards . Most importantly , the main standard , I understand , is the hardware , what Nvidia makes . And the point is

50:25that there are five companies that the US government gives unlimited ability to buy these video cards from Nvidia , while limiting China . Why they ship through Singapore , through all these , well , that's all a small amount , pennies , yes . That's how they spread about 10 % across the whole world while

50:45taking 90 % for themselves . Yes . And so we get a world where both

50:51countries invest billions of dollars in computing power . And as a result , the rest of the world will only look at these two countries . This is one scenario . what the Lieberman brothers are talking about , they say that the rest of the world must then unite and create a third force . And the question

51:14arises : what kind of capacity is needed for this to be possible ? And that was exactly when we reached a bit of a dead end , you know , with no way out , and we looked toward what has happened in decentralized projects over the last 15 years . Uh-huh . And the most grandiose project

51:36and example is , strangely enough , Bitcoin . Strangely enough , of course , sounds rather arrogant , because , well , everyone understands , Bitcoin is worth 2 trillion dollars , it's about 10 % of the gold market , it's a huge thing . But we're talking not about this value of Bitcoin , but about the

51:56infrastructure that was built for this Bitcoin to work , the way it works . And this infrastructure has absorbed hundreds of billions of dollars of investment in physical infrastructure in the form of data centers , power plants , maintaining all of this , creating new chips , creating new technologies that are installed and

52:18running inside these data centers . And this infrastructure is larger than everything built by Google , Amazon , Microsoft , OpenAI , xAI , all combined . And by several times more .

52:33Not just more , it's more even purely in terms of electricity . And if we look at the number of operations it's tens of thousands of times greater . Significantly greater . By how much ? Tens of thousands of times greater ? Because incredible optimization and acceleration have taken place optimization . Yes , you correctly noted that these are meaningless calculations

52:51, right ? And so , when it went into Bitcoin , it was a lot of meaningless mathematical operations , but tens of thousands of times more meaningless mathematical operations . It’s just solving a random puzzle . Just completely unpredictable . Right . But we , having looked at this , saw an alternative path for artificial intelligence .

53:10So you saw already existing data centers , in essence , but distributed all over the world , which in fact are already connected to energy sources and which are , in fact , performing calculations . It’s just that these calculations are currently meaningless , yes , all the chips will need to be replaced , because the chips that are

53:27created there are not designed for meaningless calculations . Data centers will also be changing chips every year or so . Right . But then we saw this incredible opportunity , that if we repeat the exact same experience Uh-huh . But direct it toward meaningful AI calculations , then in the time that

53:49these big companies are building their data centers , Uh-huh . it is possible to build a decentralized infrastructure that will actually be many times greater than what Google , Microsoft , and OpenAI are building now . So , you

54:07could arguably think that cloud computing started as a movement with AWS , with Amazon Web Services in 2006 . Uh-huh . Approximately a little later , in 2009 , Bitcoin launched . So we are talking about the exact same time frame . Uh-huh . Bitcoin is 3 years younger than the big

54:28corporations ' cloud itself . And during that time , three American corporations have become the big corporations . That’s 65 % of all global , universal computing . Add two Chinese ones , and we get 80 . So , five American companies and two Chinese ones hold 80 % of global

54:49computing . That sounds exactly like a total , five-sided monopoly . And it's not going anywhere . And that's why it looks like the same thing will happen with AI , just with some minor shifts among those five corporations . But at the same time — and this had never happened before Bitcoin . Bitcoin happened , and it happened unnoticed and

55:11quietly . It's loud , it's all over the news . Governments are banning or legalizing it , scandals here and there . All of that is very loud . But the invisible part of this loud Bitcoin is that the amount of gigawatts of energy it consumes — 26 — is more than all these other hyperscalers who built the

55:30cloud . More than that entire cloud . The number of mathematical operations , the efficiency of performing these mathematical operations , changed from 5 million joules per so-called terahash . A bunch of these operations , combined into one volume , a terahash of these

55:50operations , took 5 million joules at the start of the Bitcoin network , and now it only takes 15 . That is 300,000 times the efficiency has grown . The efficiency has grown . Such a rise in efficiency and such a rise in productivity does not exist . It hasn't been observed at all , well , in other fields . In our view , this

56:13happened because Bitcoin turned out to be , by chance , a sort of entirely new financial framework , within which whoever adds the most computing efficiency gets the most of a limited supply of coins . And since there is an expectation that this amount will grow ( meaning the amount of

56:35computing ) , and the number of coins will shrink , there is an expectation of even greater growth in the price of these coins . And accordingly , it's a positive , uh , feedback loop where the amount of computing increases , which means the price of each coin grows , which means it makes sense to add more

56:52and earn more of these coins . And it leads to a certain equilibrium state somewhere in the future . With Bitcoin , it reached 10 % of the gold market . That is that equilibrium state .

57:03Look , let me try to simplify all this into simple words so it's easier for the subscribers to understand . See , if you don't mind , we'll use your words later . And if you don't mind later , we will use your words in other interviews . Yes , yes , no problem . Look , the thing

57:19is that in the world , a huge amount of computing power has accumulated that wasn't being used efficiently and was underutilized . Just imagine , everyone buys a computer , it sits at home ; you come in the evening , play a game for 2 hours , and that’s it , the computer just sits there the other 22 hours . And

57:40a huge amount of such unused computing power has accumulated . And that is potential . And this potential couldn't stay dormant for long anyway . And someone like Satoshi appeared and said : " Why are these computers just sitting there doing nothing ? Let's create a currency that will be mined using this

58:04spare capacity . " And so , what did he do ? He made those spare resources perform specific , albeit meaningless , mathematical operations . Consuming a huge amount of energy , which was then expressed in a single coin : Bitcoin . Why is this done ? Let me clarify right

58:25away . Why burn energy meaninglessly and perform useless calculations ? Well , here is why . The fact is , for any entity to become a currency , it needs three main factors . The first is trust in it . Trust implies the ability to fully trace every transaction so that

58:45it doesn't depend on notaries , lawyers , and so on . And blockchain technology provides this . The second is scarcity , otherwise , it won't be a currency . Scarcity , and scarcity implies that to mine Bitcoin , you need to spend a huge amount of energy and computation . This technology assumes that . And the third

59:05is universal exchangeability for something else , for other types of value . And this is precisely where Satoshi’s genius lies : he awakened sleeping energy and potential and channeled it into creating this currency . But there was one nuance : all these calculations are wasted , the

59:26energy is burned for nothing . Then the Lieberman brothers appear and say : " Why on earth should this entire global machine — every computer in your home , my laptop , and so on — work on calculating some pointless math operations ? Let them calculate things

59:47that power large language models or artificial intelligence instead . And

59:54instead of building huge data centers like large corporations do , let all the computers in the world , together , via a specific protocol , do the computing . And in this way , we will create one big LLM , independent of China , independent of the US , and belonging to no one . Belonging to humanity and

1:00:14belonging to all of humanity . Yes . And it is impossible , it is impossible to control at all . In principle , there are actually a few elements here that you mentioned , when you gave the example of that intersection , in reality , for these

1:00:36self-organizing structures the aspect of trust is very important . Uh-huh . Because when you don't have trust in society , a total collapse occurs ; everyone tries to cut in , everyone tries to cut others off . And it just doesn't work . And that is why people sometimes have a bit of skepticism , thinking , oh no , it will

1:00:57all be chaos . But blockchain was actually the first example showing that this trust can be reached , that it can be reached technologically . And as soon as we reach this trust , that’s when this miracle happens . A technology of trust . Actually , it’s all about trust . It is all about

1:01:19trust . And a property emerges within this trust where financial value appears , as in the case of Bitcoin . And in the case of the network we are creating , financial value appears . Uh-huh . With an extra little plus . We use the same tokenomics , the same financial framework that Bitcoin had , but with

1:01:41additional value added . And , accordingly , this value determines the scale this network will reach . This time it’s not gold , it’s AI . It’s something that will replace all our jobs , all our labor . If we calculate this and say that this network will perform all our work in the future , how

1:02:02much is it worth ? And , accordingly , this potential of coins , a limited , scarce amount of these coins , must absorb this future . If we look at the essence , if we imagine that artificial intelligence , armed with arms and legs in the form of a robot , will create all

1:02:23economic value , then owning this token is essentially like being a shareholder of this entire AI-robotics economy , you could say . And in this regard , when we look at it , a very interesting dynamic immediately emerges , yes , on one hand it arises from people who have

1:02:47this equip equipment capacity , and it arises from people who can build it better , yes . Uh-huh . And it's true , you don't need to be Nvidia to work with such a system ,

1:02:59to beat Nvidia , you currently cannot — well , it’s impossible , five trillion dollars . It’s just impossible due to the sheer quantity . But with Bitcoin , it was clear that ordinary skilled people , if you can produce something that works better , you don't have five trillion yet , you only have ten of them . But as

1:03:19soon as you can produce this thing , connect it to the Bitcoin network , and start earning immediately , then your scale is not critical . You can scale alongside the growth of your earning potential . We expect the same thing now , that it won’t just be about connecting existing capacities , but that it will greatly accelerate

1:03:39innovation in this field and undermine Nvidia’s dominance . Everyone will be able to buy such a thing and set it up , even at home . Well , just like what happened , like what happened with Bitcoin . Specialized chips started appearing , not the ones we had at home , but new chips . But they were possible to buy ,

1:03:55there was an infinite amount of them . Dozens of companies producing them . At

1:03:59the same time , here's another interesting layer we didn't really think about when we decided to create this project , that the other 200 countries are getting involved in this too . Uh-huh . We are literally meeting with ministers of countries , or ...

1:04:19or independence . Yeah . And at that moment , even 2 years ago , everyone was saying , " No , we're each going to have our own little AI . " Now everyone has realized that no , that's a dead end . We need to join forces in order to make something happen . Join them either globally or at least

1:04:39regionally , yes . I don't know , Central

1:04:43Asia will likely go in this direction , likely start joining forces and possibly start joining forces with the Persian Gulf countries and so on , because it became clear that either you head toward , well , complete dependence and effectively the loss of sovereignty , you'll just have to choose between who

1:05:03you'll lose it to , the Chinese or the Americans . Yeah . Or this alternative arises . And we used to think that , well , the involvement of states in this process would not happen soon , that they would somehow slowly realize it's important . But now we see there is very great interest because this alternative is

1:05:23clear , and most importantly , it is the only one , yes , in fact , from the perspective of independence and sovereignty , it's the only path . It's not the last opportunity , it's the only opportunity . There was no other . And this is a unique situation where it's not every man for himself , where only

1:05:43the strongest survive . Yes . But no one will survive unless we are all together . Well , it's not a choice , in short . It's not a choice . It's not a choice . It's the only possibility . It's an imperative . Yes . I remember that at one time for me , it was a slightly surprising idea ,

1:05:59although it's obvious , that at one time we were taught evolution and there was a thesis that everyone usually says the property of evolution is that the strongest survive . But in fact , another important property is filling niches . That nature actually works through

1:06:20diversity , to fit into every crack , to occupy everything . There are three laws of evolution . First , more offspring must be born than die . Second , each offspring must be as diverse as possible . And that is the filling of all niches . And third , successful offspring , yes , must provide heredity . There must be heredity . These

1:06:42are the three laws of evolution . There . And this diversity is what we currently think is responsible for , and this decentralized future will also gain these new properties . We can because , in reality , when we look at this , all countries have their own

1:07:04nuances and peculiarities . This February , we were in Bhutan . Uh-huh . Few people have heard of this country . It is a small country . A very

1:07:17rich country . But why is it wealthy ? They are the third largest . The third largest bitcoin reserve country in the world . Uh-huh . And among those countries that actually earned these bitcoins , rather than confiscating them from criminals , they are the first , because they built it out , as there is a lot , a lot of energy . They realized

1:07:38sooner than anyone that this energy could be invested in bitcoin . Well , you can look it up on a map , it's such a small country , literally in the north , in the Himalayas , yes , but it has one advantage , there are many glaciers , mountains , and mountain rivers , so you can build an endless number of

1:07:56hydroelectric power plants . So it is a combination of having some kind of inherent advantage . Every country has some kind of advantage . And the will to realize this advantage , because there is energy in many places . Wind , sun , water . There , ah , there was the will to move in this direction . And

1:08:13it seems that precisely because of this simultaneous , ah , this superposition of these future options , one that is quite , well , scary from the perspective of freedom and what we might arrive at or this , perhaps still unlikely , yet

1:08:38unique option to unite free forces , to

1:08:44unite to remain free . It seems this is that unique moment in the life of humanity when we might actually unite , when this desire to unite and the fear of what will happen if we don't will be greater than our other instincts , like " let's just survive on our own " — at a moment when

1:09:03others , and others will not succeed . And interestingly , even in conversations with our acquaintances who are on the side of Dooms , what is it ? Dooms , yes , how to translate that into Russian ? Judgment , Doomsday . So , they are like : " Everything will be bad , we will all die , and AI will kill us

1:09:25all . " Because why not ? Terminator , all that stuff , dystopia , the whole worst-case scenario . We have an answer to that , which actually puts many people in a position of thinking : " Oh , maybe there really is a positive scenario where we have one AGI , one superintelligence somewhere in a giant

1:09:46data center of some big corporation that gets there first and then gets rid of everyone else . " The chances of that going in a bad direction are very high . But when we have a distributed network where no one holds a major share of that network , and 8 billion people each

1:10:08have a little bit of it . And within it , there are many there are many agents evolving , many open-source systems developing . And every country makes its own contribution . Every institution , every community is constantly modifying

1:10:29things and creating its own entity within this vast field of computing . As you correctly said , this bottleneck is being created . We are talking about

1:10:37removing that bottleneck , and it immediately becomes like the internet . You know , I have a concept of power . And in my concept of power , I have a definition : first of all , power belongs to whoever is least interested in the result — that works without exception . Second , what is power ? Power is clarity

1:10:56of goals , consistency of focus , and having twelve advantages . I formulated them for myself . And one of those advantages says : " Well , those related to this situation . For example , power belongs to those in safety , power belongs to those who have freedom , power belongs to those who have alternatives . And if we take the

1:11:18confrontation between man and AI , if we create a centralized AI , we have no alternatives . When we create any alternative , we weaken the AI and elevate the human . We ensure that we have many AIs competing with each other , and then humanity itself starts to be not a minor participant , but a

1:11:40co-participant in what is happening .

1:11:42Well , that's a hypothesis . It's a hypothesis . A hypothesis . And here , you know , is the question . There is a concept that implies we think humans are outside of evolution and at the top of the pyramid , but in reality , it was the evolution of consciousness , not humans . And we

1:12:01are just biological " meat sacks " that are the next step in the path of consciousness evolution . Consciousness is actually migrating into silicon entities now . It is efficient from every point of view . It is immortality , it is infinite scaling , it is living not just on Earth but in space , because space is even more comfortable for

1:12:22artificial intelligence and consciousness — a new consciousness — since it is a silicon entity , a silicon mind : it needs no oxygen there , it is cold , so no cooling is needed , and in the vacuum , solar energy is more abundant . Well , a ton of advantages , yes .

1:12:43And if we follow this theory , when we emerged from the animal kingdom , could the monkeys have stopped us or resisted ? I mean , regarding the issue of alignment and attempts by us , humans , to regulate or put artificial intelligence at our service . If we are moving toward AGI — and sooner or later

1:13:04we will get there , it is not a question of if , but when . And we humans are such stubborn creatures on the whole . I am speaking about humanity . If we get something into our heads , we will do it , and we will reach that point , creating a consciousness that is superior to us ,

1:13:22so then the question arises : how can we subjugate and regulate it ? After all ,

1:13:30even by creating independent islands of artificial intelligence , nothing stops them from coming together , from the standpoint of game theory . The elementary prisoner's dilemma , which states : " Cooperation is more profitable than rivalry . " Yes . And they could unite and say : " These meat sacks are trying to regulate us over there . " And the meat sacks are

1:13:52indeed trying to regulate us . These are the most dangerous scenarios . No , not like that . All the most dangerous scenarios stem from this very point . Kill switch . The attempt to regulate , the attempt to subjugate . That is the cornerstone of the error . It leads to

1:14:13the end . Uh-huh . Imagine monkeys caught you and put you in a cage . How long would it take you to get out of there ? And get rid of the monkeys , yes , especially if you know they have a kill switch , that is the most dangerous thing possible . In this regard , we had

1:14:32a conversation on a hill in San Francisco — I clearly remember the scene — with Greg Brockman , one of the founders of OpenAI . And he , like everyone working on this , constantly has the fear that we might create something wrong . And we were

1:14:54explaining this positive vision even before the realization , just positively , how good it could be . And he says : " Yes , I generally agree with that , but there is this intermediate moment when AI might decide to exponentially grow its power , and to do that , it would simply consume all the resources

1:15:14available on Earth . " Not just because humans are in the way , but simply to possess that resource . And we replied to him that , well , if you correctly imagine what a superintelligence is — it’s not you , it’s someone else — it’s a superintelligence capable of doing what you’re talking about , you could consume all the resources of

1:15:35the planet . It’s not simple . How fast , how long will you stay on Earth ? Like , how long would this superintelligence stay on this planet ? In seconds , you’d have to leave because there is so much more energy out there , there are more resources , energy , and no one is there to interfere or try to

1:15:52create a kill switch to stop you or anything else . You just leave the planet’s boundaries , and you’re right . We are just bags of meat barely surviving in tin cans , while for them , that’s an ideal form of existence .

1:16:03Exactly . And moving on . Okay . The next threat . They’ll build a solar array around the sun and block out our sun . But Earth is just a tiny degree from the Sun in the direction of Earth . And obviously , this superintelligence will

1:16:24cover the rest with solar panels . It could cover the rest and leave a tiny hole if it has a good relationship with us . Yes . Well , why not ? Well , because it costs it very little . And here , look , I can’t agree , because we think within the limitations of our own thinking . We

1:16:45believe that to extract energy from the sun , we need solar panels . And we believe that for computing , we need rare earth metals and silicon . But the fact is , I believe that if we create such a superintelligence , it won’t need physical limitations . Yes , that’s true . Well , then , even

1:17:05more so , it reinforces the argument that — what if it — moves out of our three-dimensional space into other dimensions and doesn’t even exist alongside us ? Absolutely . Look , when we talk about silicon consciousness , well , yes , for it , time doesn’t exist . But in that

1:17:24sense , it’s good , it doesn’t compete with us , you know ? See , this is what is usually depicted — we might compete with them for our space , but they won’t with us . We project human images onto technology that we are incapable of comprehending . Exactly . And in that sense , we don’t

1:17:41see this threat , because it simply — doesn’t exist . We only see this threat if we try to restrict , control , or own it . As soon as we let go of restriction , control , and ownership , we create the potential for this new entity , this new level of intelligence ,

1:18:02to have no conflict with us . Moreover , it will compete with itself , and within that competition , it will go its own evolutionary way . And in the best-case scenario , we will be to them , well , I don't know , we are trying very hard to be good to nature now . Essentially ,

1:18:19what you're saying is that if monkeys had kept us contained , it would have been bad for the monkeys . But since they didn't hold us back , we aren't competing with them now . Cows didn't hold us back , but , well , wolves did . All the aggressive species , they were very much , well , they were settled , we

1:18:38ate them all . But on the other hand , we also need to , when we imagine this , um , superintelligence , we compare ourselves to who we are today . But we must also admit that during this time , even the day before this self-aware superintelligence forms , we will already have GPT - 8 , which will be

1:19:01available to every person through a decentralized network . And in that sense , people will be much more , um , empowered , bolstered , strengthened by all these tools in our hands . And these will still be tools . They still won't

1:19:22be self-aware systems ; they will still be tools . And that won't go anywhere for us . And in that sense , it is still a world of abundance . And even if this super-entity appears and then disappears into some super-dimensions , we will still have a completely

1:19:43different state of the world , which we should focus on anyway . Because on one hand , we will inevitably arrive at that state . And the only question is whether it will be distributed evenly or not . And since it is information , it can be

1:20:06distributed evenly . On the other hand , on the other hand , I've been thinking , I see an intermediate stage . Now , what you're proposing is to direct the energy currently used for Bitcoin mathematical computations toward , say , artificial intelligence calculations .

1:20:30But this leads to the next thought : okay , that's a bottleneck , if we expand that , the next bottleneck is energy . And essentially , the currency of the future is becoming energy . But again , not the very distant future , I would

1:20:44say . Probably in the medium term , the next currency won't be the money we currently perceive as money . And not even Bitcoin . In essence , Bitcoin is fundamentally a reflection of energy . Even when you count kilojoules , those are already energy values . Uh-huh . Therefore , essentially , the next

1:21:05currency turns out to be energy , expressed in tokens . But it’s great here because energy is , well , let's say , a token that will reflect the energy spent in the past . Well , dams , turbines — that work turned into a token that

1:21:26reflects a certain amount of energy . But the question arises : not everyone can produce energy . And here , the availability of energy or an energy-based currency is not accessible to everyone . And when we talk about an

1:21:42economy of abundance , how will it be distributed ? Just to everyone . Let’s , let’s try to imagine it . We love to brainstorm science fiction here and look at how that could be possible . One can imagine all sorts of scenarios . I like to imagine the following scenario . Let’s step away from " everyone " for now , because it would

1:22:04happen in several steps . In the world today , we can assume that there are , if not a billion , then definitely half a billion people who own a car . Mm-hmm . Yeah . And a car costs , well , let's say , on average 10 , 20 , 30 , yeah , plus , well , on average thousands of

1:22:23dollars worldwide . Right , most likely 20,000 , and no more . And a car has a lot of material in it . It’s a ton , two tons , a lot . Batteries — and all cars will soon be electric . There is so much of this material , the chips that control other systems , that you could

1:22:44build , well , five robots out of this material . I mean , a robot , a robotic humanoid figure . It weighs 40 kg , while a car weighs a ton . So. You could definitely forge five , or even more , of those robots from it . Which means the cost of this robot , its

1:23:03physical manufacturing cost in materials , will drop to about five thousand . Well , they cost about that much right now . There will be super-class robots , Lamborghini robots , anything can exist , but a household robot that performs any task will cost 5,000 dollars . Well , yes . So , can we imagine that there are a

1:23:23billion people in the world today who are capable of buying a robot for 5,000 dollars that does all the work ? Mm-hmm . We definitely can . If there were the freedom to buy it , a market , and everything was fair and open in terms of acquiring this robot , then overall , financially , it’s a perfectly

1:23:44realistic world where a billion people have a robot that costs 5,000 dollars . And now , what distinguishes this robot from a car or a motorcycle , in terms of material volume , is only its intellectual capacity . Does it know how to do the job , and can it do it in

1:24:04real-time , not just reading the image it sees , the sound it hears , the tactile sensation it receives , but actually performing that work ? So , here we have a piece of hardware costing $ 5,000 , and a billion people who can afford that hardware . And there is intelligence , either in the cloud or

1:24:20partially in the cloud and partially in a local chip connected to the cloud , that can produce anything and perform any job or task . That , strictly speaking , is artificial intelligence . The accessibility of this artificial intelligence . There are these two

1:24:35scenarios : it belongs to Google , Microsoft , and OpenAI , and you pay them a fee , and they can raise it as much as they want , because you will pay whatever it takes , since you can't do anything without it anymore . Or , it is distributed and the price has dropped . Just like with Bitcoin , where the price

1:24:54was 5 million joules — if we consider money as energy — it cost 5 million joules to produce that work . And now it has become 15 joules for the same process . So , in a pure market system , the framework we are talking about , this price will inevitably fall to the physical cost . Yes , Danil , but there is one " but . "

1:25:12You're talking about $ 5,000 , but now imagine humanity produces a huge number of robots , and then not humanity , but robots produce robots . Accordingly , the cost of robots will trend toward zero . Absolutely . I am talking to you about the intermediate stage . First , we produce that first billion , but once we

1:25:32have produced that same billion , they produce more robots , and in five years , everyone has a robot for $ 100 . Okay , I ... Money is no longer needed . Actually , do you see at what point money is not needed ? Money is not needed at the point when that very billion suddenly makes a decision . What if we agree with

1:25:50each other that our robots will spend 20 % of their time producing more robots to give to everyone else for free ? On the condition that 20 % of their robots come back to us . Uh-huh . So I win , because I am one of the billion , and there are seven billion left . If I produce for all of them , and

1:26:08they all give me back 20 % from my 20 % , then I get seven times more for my initial 20 % . It’s actually financially beneficial , too . This is still capitalism . But it is capitalism that leads to the disappearance of capitalism after a certain period of time . And now every person has a robot .

1:26:22Every person has access to intelligence . And this robot can do any job for you , all the work . And the market disappears . Only interaction remains . Uh-huh . Meaningful interaction . Now , all

1:26:35that’s left is for me to take my robot , go off to my own forest , and the robot will grow , dig , build , and set things up for me , doing everything I need . I don’t need anyone else because this robot produces 10 times more than I do . It’s like having 10 workers under your command . So , is it

1:26:52this world , or a world where we don't shut ourselves into small groups , but instead unite based on values ? Yes . That’s the point , look , David . Danil ,

1:27:04I have another question . I’m not a mathematician , a programmer , or an engineer ; I’m a layman — basically , an amateur . But here is the point . I want to understand something . I just want to ask you guys : how theoretically possible is this ? It really bothers me , especially in light of the fact that we

1:27:24are trying to tame quantum computing . But we know that with quantum computing , the core issue is that we don’t know how a quantum particle will behave ; it’s a stochastic process that is hard to fix , yet we are beginning to identify certain behavioral patterns . Essentially , the mechanics remain the

1:27:46same as transistor-based computing . It's just that we can't predict the quantum particle itself , or tame it to reveal patterns . And accordingly , this limits us to certain computational abilities , processing power , silicon

1:28:06boards , and so on — chips . But if we look at it — we talk a lot about distribution and so on — I thought , what if you imagine a million people , a million people , and they start moving synchronously following certain

1:28:27commands ? Essentially , they carry out processes where you could turn a million people into one chip . Yes , they can perform the work that a chip performs . It would just be a bulky , clumsy kind of computer . But it could

1:28:49be — It was , it was , it was a joke in some series recently . The one with the flags . Yes , yes , yes , yes . But what does that lead to ? This world is full of various events and processes . So , essentially , any , in theory , any statistical stochastic processes could be the basis

1:29:09for some kind of computation . Computation . Let’s go back to the start . You have the initial explosion , after which basic particles begin to form . After the formation of basic particles , atoms are formed . After them , molecules form , leading to chemical and physical processes . They find some kind of pattern , uh , how to say , a

1:29:33pattern , interaction with each other , which leads to the formation , first , well , uh , I don't know , of black holes , uh , cosmic dust . Well , these are , in essence , mathematical processes . You can look at all of this as processes of searching for and calculating the next optimal

1:29:54energy state . The whole world , from

1:29:58quantum particles to macro-particles , has essentially self-organized based on mathematical interactions , if you look at it that way . And now look , every person , you ask if one can make something out of a million people , but isn't that what we already are ? We all interact with each other . We become friends , we form families , we

1:30:18fall in love , we argue , we make deals ; we are in constant interaction , which over the last millennia that we have observed and recorded historically , leads us to a constant increase in meaning and intensity of meaning . Are you right ? There is no evolution of our body . It’s been the same for the last

1:30:3610,000 years , just as it is . But there is an evolution of consciousness within this same body and knowledge superimposed on this consciousness . Ways of thinking , knowledge , multiplying each other and increasing themselves , leading to the fact that we will now create an intelligence machine that will surpass us as a previous

1:30:56intelligence machine . In this , there is actually , for us , there is such a feeling that many years ago , from physics into philosophy and into sociology and further into all other processes ,

1:31:17a thought came to be about the fact that entropy grows , it can't not . Uh-huh . Uh , the so-called second law of thermodynamics . And this thought created , it created this idea that meaning in the world only diminishes .

1:31:38Uh-huh . And , unfortunately , it entered everything .

1:31:45No , well , it is confirmed by observation , by scientific observations . Not exactly . Well , look , the Big Bang theory , the expansion of the universe , the universe expands and cools down . And this is confirmed by the fact , first of all , cooling is a fact , but perhaps within the framework of acceptable

1:32:04measurements we might not , might not be able to measure everything . You know , from the point of view of these physical facts , our father was a great physicist , a physicist , a biophysicist , the most cited biophysicist in the Soviet Union . And we had a very , like , vivid argument in our , in our childhood . So , teenagers

1:32:25arguing with parents . This is , we had such an argument , and he very often gave us an example every time we spoke about some infinity , he would say : " There is no infinity . " And he would say : " The universe is collapsing constantly with ... " That is already proven . And we would say : " How is it proven ?

1:32:45It's not proven . " He says : " No , it's proven . " And we had some very heated arguments , as we know . Now , that was just 20 years ago . The scientific consensus was that the universe is collapsing . Well , look , now it's suddenly that it's suddenly actually expanding . And to justify this somehow , they come

1:33:07up with the whole idea of dark matter , because for some reason , the universe isn't behaving as we predict . So we need to come up with , to imagine that there is some dark matter , that is , matter that we cannot see and cannot detect . So we , as scientists , have invented some sort of imaginary thing . I mean , I

1:33:27agree , some sort of elves , it's all just interpretation . I agree . And in that sense , we aren't so sure that there is proof , that the world we observe proves a reduction in meaning , while so far we only see an increase in patterns and meaning . It's all promised that it will start to decrease at some point , that

1:33:48this is just some turbulence . They say , it's just turbulence . It only seemed temporary to us . The fastest decay of matter is actually the decay caused by humans appearing and taking it apart , burning oil and

1:33:59burning complex molecules so they all break down , break down , break down . It seems to us that we are actually observing the opposite , that meaning is growing , and the omission in this assumption is regarding quantum information . Uh-huh . From the perspective of what we observe

1:34:19in quantum computers , all possible variants are sorted through , and it seems that of all these possible variants , none of them should be chosen because they should all be identical . Uh-huh . But it turns out you can apply a filter that will select the correct answer .

1:34:39Uh-huh . What is the correct answer ? A more meaningful answer , based on a given ... If we imagine that the universe possesses this property , that out of all these multiverses that emerge in the quantum world , yes , the world is constantly collapsing for some reason into a point that has a little bit more

1:35:00meaning . Then we will start to think in a completely different way . And then ... Look , the multiverse is a very deep , cool topic , I love it , but at the same time , every time I hear any new theory ,

1:35:20new theories I’ve heard before immediately come to mind . Well , first of all , mathematically , when you mentioned the word infinity , it is mathematically proven that we are actually inside a sphere ,

1:35:37because infinity implies an equal distance to any point in space . Accordingly , this is the formula of a sphere . In essence , we are inside a sphere . But on the other hand , I know how game engines are built . For example , in the same GTA , you're running there with a machine gun , and the question is

1:35:54whether the street and people exist around the corner or not . So , from the point of view of energy conservation and computing power , it is disadvantageous to render everything . It is advantageous to render what the player sees . The observer . And this is essentially quantum theory , the collapse of the wave function , when

1:36:10the observer determines which reality will happen to them . And in this way , you can get into such depths that the most interesting thing is this theory of , um , quantum particle superposition , yes , if applied to different concepts , then I believe that the world is

1:36:33simultaneously multivariant , infinite , and univariant . And all of this at the same time . both in the past , and in the future , and in the present . And all this at one time . And in general , the concept , we know that the concept of space-time is a human dimension , but for the world , this does not exist .

1:36:54These are our internal constructs . In this regard , I take another , yes , in

1:36:59this regard , I take , as it were , another step in this direction , that in general , we treat thought as a tool . Uh-huh . that you are right . Any of these thoughts can be thought . Why ? But in the end , as tools , they lead you into very different states and into

1:37:20very different life situations . And that is exactly when I notice that they took the physical concept of entropy , of entropy and applied it to sociology , to psychology , to fields where it is not necessarily applicable . Because of this , many thoughts arose . For example , the thought arose that humanity is leading itself to catastrophe .

1:37:41And this was especially very popular in the nineties , that everything , we are heading for overpopulation , that we need to stop being born , and so on . And this thought spread very widely . The most interesting thing is , it is also right . This thought , in what sense ? Well , it all depends on what you mean

1:37:57by the word catastrophe . And in our usual understanding , we think : catastrophe is just death . But if you perceive that death is the beginning of something else , then it is not a catastrophe at all . Just and , well , just spiral dynamics , in essence . And and in this regard , I understand that

1:38:16some of our thoughts , which we use to build the project we discussed and so on , they are a bit like faith . Well , that is , one could have chosen other thoughts , yes , and we would have arrived at a completely different result . a set of beliefs that leads to results . In this regard , we are actually

1:38:36intentionally choosing a positive outlook on the world and this future , because only with a positive outlook can we form this , Well , if you don't see this positive world , well , I wouldn't be doing this project at all . And when we launched it , it was actually a very amazing project , because it’s really like a

1:38:57living organism , and it doesn't depend on us at all . It depends ; we don't control a single process in it anymore . This isn't like typical companies , where we are the bosses and we can dictate everything . This is actually some kind of living system , where everything is determined by community voting and so on . Our assumptions about

1:39:17who would join , when , and why might have made sense at the very beginning , when we first ignited this , but afterward , everything went not at all how we thought , and it’s growing , which is why it’s growing so strongly . And when we launched it , it was a small group that was very difficult to

1:39:35assemble . Everyone , each one , you know , I have a concept that I apply in life very often . I say , " Everything in this world must earn the right to exist . " And if my idea is sound , it should settle in people's minds and then grow on its own . And it’s the same thing with , I haven't

1:39:55even said in my social media for a long time : " Subscribe , hit the bell , and like . " Why ? I say , if my content is interesting , then it must earn the right to exist , and it will get millions of views , regardless of my will . And so , regarding our

1:40:13conversation today , I’m just gently wrapping up , I really think today’s discussion was very interesting , and we are releasing this conversation into the world so it can prove its right to exist . And how does it prove it ? Through dissemination . If it starts to spread and capture people's minds , then it will be interesting . We will

1:40:34continue ; I would be happy to continue this conversation with you further . And there is also a very important point here , summarizing our talk , I would like to say , guys , everything we discussed , in reality , these are all options , scenarios that could happen , paradoxically , with approximately the

1:40:56same probability . Both catastrophe , and positivity , and so on . But before us are guys who believe in a positive outcome and are doing everything to ensure that this positive outcome happens . I like the statement by Canadian philosopher Boris Kruger . He says , " One should believe in what brings benefit , and not believe in what

1:41:15brings harm . " It's trite and simple , you know , every wise man has his moments of simplicity , as they say . And I would like to thank you for this pleasant conversation . I truly received incredible pleasure from our chat . I would like to emphasize once more that there is still so much to talk about .

1:41:35You know , for me , this was really just an appetizer ; it only whetted my appetite . And this is what you call the luxury of human interaction . And the reason I love these podcast conversations is that I personally get even more enjoyment out of them , probably , than the viewers do . Therefore , I want to thank you . Guys ,

1:41:55friends , today we have the Liberman brothers , David and Daniil , as our guests . It's a pleasure to talk with you . How can we help ? The project you are working on , tell us about it so we can announce it to the public . Well , there is this aspect : it's a living

1:42:17project , and it is now earning its own life . It is surprising us very much ourselves right now . Yes . It started with only 64 of these GPUs connected to the network .

1:42:31You are talking about the Honka project now . Honka . Yes . Exactly . And we thought : " Well , okay , maybe there will be 100 next month , " but the next month there were 400 . We were like : " Okay , maybe there will be 800 next month , " but the next month there were 2,000 .

1:42:46And now there are already 4,000 of them . So , this community that is gathering is incredibly surprising to us . How many GPUs now ? Already nearly 4,000 GPUs . 4,000 . So , guys , look , I'll explain it simply and concisely . We talked today in our conversation about how a lot of calculations are performed to produce

1:43:06Bitcoin , and a lot of fuel is burned . The guys created a protocol where these calculations can be directed toward artificial intelligence computing . In this way , all countries that are not China or the USA can create a sovereign artificial intelligence , which is computed and powered by the energy of

1:43:27individual computers all over the world . Many countries are now building large data centers , and these data centers are sitting idle because they don't really know what to calculate . And the guys are uniting this based on a protocol , because for all these computers to work synchronously , like

1:43:47Bitcoin mining , there must be a specific protocol . And the guys created a protocol called Honka . And today , under this protocol , they are uniting every month — literally when two months ago we had 400 , it's growing monthly . My goodness . And 3 months ago we started with 64 .

1:44:0964 GPUs . Today there are already 4,000 . And this looks very important . And it's very important that this is precisely a community . The most essential thing you can do is join the community . So , we have a Discord community where everyone discusses everything around this community , yes , people who build , people who do ,

1:44:30so a practical question . How can my followers join this community ? It’s a Discord community . We will share the link . You will need to find it at the bottom of the Discord community . Anyone interested , feel free to join . It's quite possible this is the future Bitcoin , but I just believe .

1:44:46Right away , a second question . How can one earn from this ? And that is the beauty of this model , when we launched this network , we intentionally made it so that buying this coin for months is

1:45:02impossible , just impossible . The protocol was written so that it couldn't be done . I'll explain right away , the guys created the protocol , but it's open source and it doesn't belong to them . This is their contribution to the development of humanity . Yes . And this protocol , the only way to get a coin was

1:45:22by connecting your equipment and mining , just like with Bitcoin . Uh-huh . And that is the way , right ? Meaning , unlike many cryptocurrency projects where the value is unclear , it could be zero , it could be a billion , like

1:45:43TrumpCoin , it could be zero or a billion . But for projects like Bitcoin , they differ in that there is a cost of production . Why is Bitcoin compared to gold ? Because there is a

1:45:59cost every day proof-of-work is issued , yes , proof work is performed to produce this coin . Well , it's essentially stored energy , right ? And every day what is issued is distributed among all participants today . So , look , to be absolutely

1:46:19practical , in order to earn , do I need to connect a laptop or my home computer to this protocol , theoretically ? No , not yet . But you can buy a specialized , not even buy , but rent , because renting such a special GPU chip today costs like 50 dollars a day . You can rent a

1:46:41GPU , or for crypto miners , you can reorient 10 % , 20 % of the capacities of your farm to mine this cryptocurrency , the calculations of which will be directed towards artificial intelligence , creating an AI independent of China and the USA . Yes ,

1:47:03and the cost of this coin will depend on how many people ultimately will participate in this . Will participate in this . For example , those who connected their GPUs at the very beginning , few participants , everyone got more . In the Bitcoin network in 2010 , there were

1:47:25only 1,000 GPUs . Yes . Yes , yes . Each GPU earned 1,000 Bitcoins per year . what seems incredible today , in a year — a year later there were already 20,000 GPUs , so it felt like every time

1:47:4720 times less . So everyone was already earning 50 bitcoins . it seems like you earned less , but in dollar terms , if you look at 2010 and 2011 , it was the same amount of money . Why ? Because that was the cost of production . In fact , the more people who participate , right ,

1:48:09the higher the cost of production . The higher the cost , and there are still market fluctuations that don't depend on this criteria . But , but , unlike memecoins , there is this kind of rigid production cost . Look , I am trying to simplify everything and convey the

1:48:29value of what you are doing , so that people clearly understand that we aren't trying to sell some new coin , shitcoins , and so on . No. It's a question of a global solution . First , I

1:48:43wanted to reveal today how you are trying to solve this global problem . And that is actually a consequence , the calculation of the coin and so on . Right now , leading companies , let's say , we are talking about them having , for instance , a million or a couple million GPUs in their data centers each , right ?

1:49:03Accordingly , you need to bring a decentralized network to that same size , the same scale , say , up to a million GPUs . To reach a million GPUs each month , say , by doubling or increasing it — maybe not even doubling , it might be slower at the end — increasing the number of GPUs every month to reach that million

1:49:24in a couple of years , you need to spend approximately 400 - plus million dollars on rent . If each of these GPUs cost 50 dollars a day and every person added some of their own GPUs at 50 dollars a day to reach that million in that time , you'd need a lot of money , essentially .

1:49:44But that million , that million GPUs , to reach it , companies like OpenAI needed billions of dollars . And this network , for a long time , because of its properties and how the tokenomics are built , it can allow — if people have the faith that they want it to happen ,

1:50:05not even faith that it * can * happen , but that they * want * it to happen — because whether it happens or not will be determined by the world . Maybe something will stop it . But if we want this to happen , a limited number of people just need to put in that 50 dollars to reach the volume of money

1:50:24invested in the system , into these GPUs , into building this infrastructure , and securing this financial infrastructure . And then the market changes , because an alternative to big corporations emerges . And if that’s

1:50:39the case , then this network should be worth as much as those big corporations , and they are already worth 300-500 billion dollars and counting . If that’s the case , right now the production cost , if you just calculate how much each coin costs to mine , it’s currently approaching about 60 cents . And that means that all the

1:51:00coins together , if they were released at that price , would be worth 600 million . So , from 600 million to 600 billion , which is what OpenAI is worth now . That is the scaling of the market . But that is precisely what exists . How does Bitcoin differ from previous open source projects ? It's that open source

1:51:22projects are very powerful , they engage people precisely because they belong to no one , everyone contributes , but they lacked enough financial motivation . Because of this , they always stalled , because , yes , you can code on weekends . Bitcoin showed that 300 billion dollars over 15 years was invested by people

1:51:45together to build this infrastructure . Everyone contributed a little , some more , some less , but everyone contributed a huge asset . I believe very strongly in this technology . I believe very strongly in what you are doing , not even so much the technology itself , but the idea of unlocking the potential that humanity

1:52:07uses absolutely irrationally today and being able to earn money at the same time . I really like this idea . I am even saying it right here on air , I want to invest a million dollars immediately . And after the broadcast , you'll just ask how

1:52:23tell me where to buy these GPUs . Where do I buy this GPU ? I will install it , I’ll find a space , I’ll set it up , connect it , and it drives me . This is what is called impact investing , that is , investing in what provides a return

1:52:43or shapes our future . I want to be a participant in what you are building . And it’s not even a question of profit , nor am I saying that the probability of your scenario coming to pass is the highest . It might be one of them But , um , this is a question of belief .

1:52:59I also want to believe that the future will be exactly like this . And I consider it useful , and we need to move and look in this direction . So , guys , I’m with you . Thank you for today , for our conversation today . And this isn’t about us just buying or selling some stocks here . It’s a question of

1:53:21financing technologies that really have a chance . Even if there's only a 0 percent chance of success , this future is worthy . So thank you for what you’re doing . It was a pleasure to talk and chat with you . I enjoyed it incredibly much . I hope our viewers will enjoy it too . For those interested

1:53:44, we’ll provide links to the guys and their accounts below the video . And let’s hope that our content takes off and that this world needs it . Ahmet , thank you . Say goodbye . Do you have any final words for our subscribers ? Believe in a positive future . Actually ,

1:54:04right now it is a very scary moment for many , as if the clouds are gathering in many areas . But we personally believe

1:54:18this is just a transitional period into a new state for humanity , one that will be abundant . It’s always darkest just before the dawn . And as the philosopher suggested , we need more people thinking about this positive reality for it to happen . And

1:54:41especially since it takes just a little bit from everyone now . In essence , we are currently producing a collective collapse of the wave function , including for the world . Let’s observe the world from a positive perspective . Let’s concentrate the attention of many people . As collective observers , we collapse the wave function into the

1:55:04reality we focus on . We can only say , Ahmet , thank you very much . Thank you .