JRE MMA Show #185 with Ethyn Ewing

0:01Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

0:03>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

0:06>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

0:08NIGHT. All day,

0:12>> man. Good to see you. [music]

0:13>> It's good to be here.

0:14>> I like your shirt.

0:15>> I appreciate it.

0:16>> Professor Finesser. Is that your

0:18Professor Finesser line?

0:19>> This is one of my designs of my uh

0:21Professor Finesser line. Got the cross

0:23guard there.

0:24>> I like it.

0:24>> Little dope.

0:26>> We got a couple different symbols.

0:28Something that I'm building up. I want

0:29to get out to the people.

0:30>> It's a cool nickname.

0:32>> It's uh it's unique for sure. It's It

0:35came about a funny way, but I like it.

0:38It's the mantra that it brings to the

0:40fight game and to who I am is is

0:42perfect.

0:43>> Well, it's finesse and you fight with a

0:45lot of finesse, you know. Um so, we

0:47should start from your UFC debut because

0:51uh that was when you really burst onto

0:52the scene. You fought this guy Malcolm

0:55Wellmaker who's a killer, vicious

0:57knockout puncher and had a ton of hype

1:00behind him because of his performance.

1:02Was it the Contender Series where you

1:03had the big performance?

1:04>> Uh it was all three of them.

1:06>> Contender Series. He knocked that dude

1:07out flat and then uh

1:09>> I don't remember who it was second, but

1:11then it was Chris Moutino was the third

1:12one

1:13>> that that he knocked out like that.

1:15>> And um you put on a show, man, and

1:17nobody had heard of you. And that's one

1:19of the craziest things about this sport

1:21is that there can be a guy like you

1:23that's learning and growing on in the

1:25shadows and then they get the call and

1:28on I think it was two days notice.

1:31>> Yeah.

1:32>> So two days notice you fought above your

1:34weight cuz you're bantamweight normally

1:36and you fought a featherweight and dude

1:39you just it wasn't just that you fought

1:42a guy who was this vicious striker. It

1:44was the calmness and the technique and

1:46the smoothness of it all that was so

1:48impressive. And I was like, "This guy's

1:51different." Like you, the way you fight

1:52is very intelligent. And I love that. I

1:56love watching a guy who's just all

1:58technique and and movement. And you're

2:01you're the epitome of that.

2:03>> Ah, I appreciate it. Um, that's

2:05something I pride myself on. That's I

2:07think

2:09maybe it's because I've I've delved into

2:11more of a boxing realm with perfecting

2:14the striking and and really focusing on

2:17um that that technical aspect, that

2:20style. But yeah, it's to me to watch

2:23guys go in there and just brawl it out

2:25and say uh you know, let's see who can

2:27take more punches before the other guy

2:29drops is is just silly to me. It's it's

2:32like you said, I like to fight with

2:34finesse. I like to hit and not get hit

2:36and champions don't take return fire.

2:38So, um I hope to have a lot of longevity

2:41with this game and uh yeah, that's why I

2:43fight that way.

2:44>> That is the formula for longevity. I was

2:46having a conversation with Fedor, the

2:48guy who was sitting next to us, who's uh

2:50one of the best pool players in the

2:52world, and he's getting we just got back

2:53from ways to well, so shout out to

2:55Brighgam and all the people at Ways to

2:57Well for taking care of us. Um, but he

3:00uh and I were talking about fighters and

3:02about it's very similar to I think

3:05everything whether it's pool or golf or

3:08and there's the people that really focus

3:10on technique and fundamentals and and

3:14really objectively look at what they're

3:16doing and refine it. And we were talking

3:18about guys who just stand in front of

3:20each other and blast each other. I'm

3:21like, look, the crowd will cheer. They

3:24will love to see you, but your career

3:26will be shorter. And the end will be

3:28bad.

3:29>> The end will be bad and and then you'll

3:32probably fight past the time where you

3:34should and no one's going to stop you.

3:36They're going to maybe you have one or

3:38two close friends that'll tell you when

3:39are you going to hang them up, but a lot

3:41of coaches let guys fight way too long.

3:44And I think the organization lets guys

3:46fight way too long. There's a few guys

3:48that in the past at least I' I've see

3:50them on the lineup in a upcoming fight.

3:52I'm like, "Oh god." And then I see who

3:54he's fighting. I'm like, "Oh god."

3:55>> Yeah. like I don't want to see this guy

3:57take any more punishment. I don't, you

3:58know, enough is enough. And those styles

4:01of just face first just attacking. Boy,

4:04the audience loves you. And that's a

4:06trap,

4:07>> right?

4:07>> That is a real trap.

4:09>> Yeah. I mean, 100%. And I think that's

4:13it's almost a little frustrating that

4:15the like general public gives that kind

4:17of energy to that kind of a match. Sure,

4:20I get it. It's exciting. You want to see

4:21blood spill. like people just really

4:24enjoy the chaos of all that and all the

4:25movement and the energy that goes into

4:27it. But yeah, you're you're foregoing

4:30that whole technical aspect like the

4:32perfection of controlling the dance from

4:35the beginning to the end and everything

4:37in between, you know, it's and it's

4:39almost just like a like an educated

4:41street brawl. You're getting in there

4:42and just swinging and going crazy. And

4:44to me, that's not what martial arts is.

4:46I mean, it's it literally is the the

4:49chase of perfection to it of, you know,

4:51like the the hit and don't get hit. That

4:54is the art of of boxing, but the art of

4:57striking and martial arts. You know, you

4:59want to be Yeah. near near perfect in

5:03the way you engage in this is land the

5:05damage and be able to cut those angles,

5:08move your head, pull out the distance,

5:11and not take any of that in return. And

5:13uh yeah, a lot of guys get get cheered

5:16on initially and so it's unfortunate

5:17that um maybe it's not unfortunate, but

5:20you just you just see it a lot that

5:22yeah, those guys get hyped up off the

5:24beginning and then all the other things

5:25happen like you said.

5:26>> Well, I mean look, they are exciting. I

5:28love when guys fight like that cuz it's

5:30just crazy to watch, but I have to set

5:33aside the rational part of my brain that

5:35says this is not smart. It's not a good

5:36thing for them, right?

5:38>> And this is there's no future in this.

5:40Eventually, it's going to catch up to

5:41you.

5:41>> Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, if I watch

5:43these guys, you know, get after it, like

5:44Roman Puga versus uh his opponent on the

5:47Dana White Contender Series this last

5:49Tuesday, I believe it was.

5:50>> Oh, that was crazy,

5:50>> dude. I mean, I've trained with Roman a

5:52little bit here and there. He's from the

5:54same area as me. And uh yeah, the guys

5:57the guy's very skillful, but at the end

5:58of the day, both those guys walked out

5:59of there just busted up. I mean, they

6:01went straight to the hospital. and it's

6:03fantastic to watch. But from a fighter

6:05perspective, at least from someone who's

6:07engaging in this on the same level as

6:09they are, yeah, I uh I don't know,

6:12that's why I like, you know, a little

6:14bit more of that precise style with the

6:16boxing specifically. I guess I've really

6:18drawn a lot of aspects from it.

6:21>> Oh, for sure. I mean, there's there's an

6:25art to like a fighter that fights with

6:28style and a a fighter that fights with

6:30finesse. Like I always go to Izzy in his

6:32prime, Adisana in his prime when when he

6:36was just styling on dudes. I mean it was

6:39a beautiful thing to watch. It was it

6:41was it was like a dance. It was almost

6:44like he was coordinating them, you know?

6:46He was moving them into his strikes and

6:49everything was like faints. They were

6:50all like very specific to gauge

6:53reactions and he'd put it all into the

6:55computer and the next thing you know

6:57he's tuning you up,

6:58>> right? Yeah. I mean, uh, he's dancing

7:00his way out.

7:01>> Yeah.

7:02>> Into the octagon and then he's dancing

7:03in there, you know.

7:04>> Yeah.

7:05>> Yeah. It's, um,

7:07>> and I think the other thing that the

7:09general public doesn't understand about

7:10this game is that it's a smart man's

7:11game.

7:12>> Yes.

7:12>> It's not a tough man's game.

7:14>> Well, that's one of the reasons why I

7:15wanted to talk to you because I've seen

7:16a lot of your quotes online. I've seen

7:18you talk. You're obviously a thoughtful

7:20person and I think you have to be to

7:22have that kind of a style because it

7:24does take a lot of thinking. It takes a

7:26lot of like what you're doing in there

7:28by constantly overloading overloading

7:31your opponent's nervous system with

7:33movement and and and constant counters

7:36and being like right out of range but

7:38then right in range and then right out

7:40of range there's a lot of intelligence

7:42involved in that. And for someone like

7:44me who really loves the art of it, I

7:47love watching a guy like you fight

7:48because I really wish young fighters

7:50would emulate people like you. Young

7:52fighters would see a guy like that like

7:53that's what I want to fight like. I

7:55don't want to be this guy who goes in

7:57there and the end of my career, my face

7:58is just a road map of scars and I got

8:01CTE, but boy, people remember back in

8:04the day when I knocked that guy out or

8:05when we had this fight of the night and

8:07>> Yeah. Yeah. And um it's taken a lot of

8:12experience, a lot of growth, a lot of

8:13seeing different things cuz when I was a

8:15wrestler, it was the Iowa style of

8:18wrestling that I emulated and that I

8:20hope to emulate, which is it's just get

8:23in your face. It's break you down, break

8:25your spirit, break you physically, just

8:27completely wipe you out with just

8:29outstanding pressure, you know. And I

8:31think I suffered with the finesse, with

8:34a little bit of the technicality of of

8:35setting things up and being smooth

8:37because I was just clubbing on your

8:39head, snapping people down, going going.

8:42And I I've refined that. I've I've

8:44pulled back from that almost almost too

8:47much, I would say, to where if I'm if

8:50I'm striking with someone, I don't even

8:51want to engage in like a battle of

8:52physicality. These guys try to push and

8:54move and get up and I'm like, you know,

8:57I'll sit and I'll dance and I'll roll up

8:59and I'll I'll shut them down real quick

9:01and I'm steering them off and I'm

9:02throwing really quick and they try to

9:04get physical where they're really trying

9:05to make it, you know, a high pace and

9:07and and

9:09just more physical. I don't want to

9:11engage with that at all. I want to steer

9:13from beginning to the end. I want to

9:15keep my heart rate as low as possible. I

9:17want to land shots and then I want to be

9:19back to sitting and and like you said,

9:21covering a distance, controlling

9:23everything where I can sit, I can take

9:25my breath and I can see what's coming

9:27next and then I can move accordingly.

9:29And so, you know, after being out for a

9:32little bit of time, I'm now even

9:34elevated another um yeah, to to another

9:38greater extent in my own mind that I'm

9:40now starting to combine the two things

9:42to where before I I wouldn't say I shied

9:44away from it. You know, I'm I'm a tough

9:46guy. if if we want to get physical and

9:47if it needs to go to that, I'm there all

9:49day, you know, don't get me wrong with

9:51that. But, um, I'm I'm finding that

9:55middle ground where I was I was too much

9:58of that Iowa style without the finesse.

10:02Now, I was trying to be all skillful,

10:04all finesse, dance around the Muhammad

10:06Ali shuffle, throw that flicker jab, be

10:08out of range, you know, and and not want

10:11to engage in the physicality too much.

10:13And now I've elevated once again to

10:14where I'm finding that perfect middle

10:16ground that you know my I'm letting my

10:18ego go in the gym to where if we do get

10:20into that physicality or someone gets me

10:22with something, if it doesn't look

10:24perfect, I'm not sitting there thinking,

10:25"Oh, I need to look perfect and and

10:26avoid these things." Now I'm just

10:29sending it and getting after it. So

10:30yeah, it's it's an ever evolving game

10:33and uh I'm just getting better all the

10:35time with everything. So you'll never

10:37see me go in there and brawl anybody,

10:39but you'll see less hesitation. you'll

10:42see uh more precise shots and then all

10:44the other finesse will always be there.

10:46>> Well, it is a constant work in progress,

10:48right? And I think that's one of the

10:49more interesting things about MMA is

10:51that you see a fighter when they first

10:53start fighting in the UFC and then you

10:55see as fights go on, they get more

10:58fights, they get more confidence, they

10:59get more experience, and they also get

11:02significantly better. You know, it's

11:04it's kind of rare that you see athletes

11:06in a sport, generally speaking, when

11:08they get to a certain professional

11:10level, they're kind of already at their

11:12peak and they might get a little better,

11:15but in MMA in particular, you see

11:17dramatic improvement in fighters over

11:19the course of four or five years,

11:21especially if they have good management

11:23and good training.

11:24>> And one of the things that you're

11:25talking about is like letting your ego

11:27go in the gym. That that is so

11:28important. It's so important to

11:30recognize that training is for learning.

11:32It's not you're not trying to win every

11:34training session. You're not trying to

11:35win fights. You're trying to get better

11:36at winning actual fights. And sometimes

11:38getting better at winning actual fights

11:40is addressing whatever weird weaknesses

11:43or weird places where you're not as

11:45comfortable and getting comfortable

11:47there. And the best way to do that is to

11:49just force yourself into those

11:50situations.

11:51>> Yeah, 100%.

11:51>> It's hard to do though because guys want

11:53to be dominant. They want to, you know,

11:55you don't want to lose a training

11:56session. You don't want to give, you

11:58know, this guy that you're sparring with

11:59the impression that he can kick your

12:01ass,

12:01>> right? So, you want to get it back on

12:03them, but sometimes it's smart to not.

12:05>> Yeah, 100%. I mean, I'm I'm over there

12:08uh the Rola Brothers are training over

12:10there at CSW with Eric Pollston right

12:11now, and Yeah, it's like

12:14>> those guys are phenomenal.

12:16>> Yeah, they're the best in the world at

12:18what they do.

12:19>> They're so fun to watch. Those guys

12:20could put jiu-jitsu on the map.

12:22>> Oh, yeah. Cuz the Routollo brothers,

12:24like when they do jiu-jitsu, it is like

12:26this chaotic, exciting, like very

12:31kinetic, very technical

12:34path to your neck,

12:35>> right?

12:35>> You know, that's what it is. It's just

12:37this constant path to your neck,

12:38>> dude. And they got these monkey arms

12:41that it can just wrap around your neck

12:42and get that dar choke from anywhere,

12:44man. It's ridiculous.

12:45>> Long arms are awesome.

12:46>> Long arms are insane.

12:47>> Such an advantage. Like Hodra Gracie had

12:49that. A lot of guys have that. A lot of

12:50like the best Dar guys. Hamzad has that,

12:53>> right?

12:53>> Those long armed guys. [ __ ] man.

12:55>> Yeah. And then like you said, like their

12:57their ability to

12:59>> they they almost like enforce the chaos

13:02because that's where they they thrive

13:03at, you know, all that scramble

13:04situation.

13:06>> They're they're running doing crazy

13:07jumps, like crazy sweep setups. Uh was

13:11it Kate or Tai? I think I say it was Tai

13:14when he ran and he bounced off the cage

13:15or the ropes and he runs back in and

13:17double legs like the dude. Like it's

13:19like a WWE match, you know? They're like

13:21thriving off of that chaotic energy.

13:23Scrambles. Yeah, they they they're so

13:25good in scrambles, you know, and it's

13:27really interesting watching it. Is it

13:30Tai that's doing one FC that is doing

13:32MMA fights now?

13:33>> They're both fighting.

13:34>> They're both fighting now.

13:35>> And that's it's going to be exciting to

13:38have those guys enter into the UFC

13:40someday. Hopefully they will. Yeah,

13:41>> cuz uh

13:41>> Oh, for sure. That they're they're just

13:44freak athletes, you know? It's something

13:45that they've been around since they were

13:48super super young. And uh yeah, I mean

13:53even even their striking, you know, it's

13:55not super technical quite yet. They're

13:57very brand new in it, but they're just

13:59they got long reach. They're very

14:01methodical. They're athletic. They

14:02understand distances from the jiu-jitsu

14:05world of setting up takedowns and, you

14:06know, closing closing that distance. So,

14:09um, but yeah, what I was saying is like

14:11going with that kind of a guy, it's like

14:13the last thing I want to do is engage in

14:15like a grappling position with them in

14:18the jiu-jitsu or in the MMA. And uh, but

14:22it's like, yeah, the more I do that, I'm

14:24only going to get better at doing that

14:26kind of stuff, you know,

14:27>> kill the ego, engage full headon into

14:30what you're bad at. That's the only way

14:32to get good at anything.

14:33>> Another great thing about those guys is

14:34they're totally natural. And in the

14:37jiu-jitsu world, that's rare,

14:38>> right?

14:39>> That's really rare. Jiu-jitsu is a dirty

14:41sport, man.

14:42>> Yeah.

14:42>> Or, you know, I mean, is it dirty if

14:44everyone's doing it? No. Let me say it

14:46this way. It's an enhanced sport,

14:48>> right?

14:49>> For the most part, the elite guys are on

14:51some Brazilian supplements.

14:53>> Yeah. It's It's legal, but they're all

14:56doing it. Yeah. They're all juiced up.

14:57So,

14:58>> I mean, it's kind of legal. Like Abu

15:00Dhabi doesn't test. A lot of places

15:01don't test, right? So it's like and you

15:04see these guys and there's no way some

15:06of them and you know kudos to guys like

15:08Gordon like Gordon Ryan who talks very

15:10openly about it. He's like everybody's

15:12on performance-enhancing drugs. Why

15:14would I be on performance-enhancing

15:15drugs? My goal is to be the absolute

15:17best that I could be period.

15:19>> Right? You know, and the idea that the

15:21only reason why he's so good is because

15:23of steroids is also equally ridiculous

15:25because when he was younger and when he

15:27was much smaller, he was winning

15:29tournaments left and right and beating

15:31world champions,

15:32>> right?

15:32>> And he was totally natural.

15:34>> Yeah. I mean, there's there's no way you

15:36can say someone like Gordon Ryan isn't

15:38the highest prowess of skill set for

15:41jiu-jitsu, you know, like his technical

15:43technicality and his abilities there are

15:45unquestionable. Yeah. Yeah. What I mean,

15:47what are you going to do if everybody

15:48else is is on that level? You're now at

15:52a deficit if you're not taking it. So,

15:54um

15:54>> there's a few guys that don't. Um

15:56>> and and maybe I don't know. Obviously,

16:00there's maybe some strength skill or

16:02strength deficit there, but

16:04that's that's why again going back to my

16:07style and and what I like to do, like

16:09the technicality and having that

16:11ability, there's there's there's just so

16:14many aspects to everything. But if

16:16you're that much more technical than

16:18someone, then that can negate size to

16:20some extent. That can negate

16:22>> um strength to some extent. Like there's

16:24there's there's a lot of equalizers

16:26there. Now,

16:27>> you know, on the on the opposite end,

16:29someone who's got that one hit or

16:30quitter, they could be less technical,

16:32but they're always dangerous. If they

16:34hit you one time and you go to sleep,

16:35then all sins are forgiven. They could

16:37have got beat up for two rounds straight

16:40and they knock you out. That's all the

16:41the crowd remembers. So, uh, there's a

16:44there's a lot that goes into it. But if

16:46you're that much more, you know,

16:49skilled in your technicality, that's

16:52that's you're going to to me that's the

16:54best you can do. That's that's what

16:56you're chasing.

16:57>> For sure. The really dangerous guys are

16:59the guys who have that one hit or

17:00quitter power and then they get real

17:02technical.

17:02>> Yeah.

17:03>> Those are the scary guys.

17:04>> Oh, for sure. I mean,

17:05>> yeah,

17:05>> that's then now you have it all. You

17:07know, that's that

17:10>> often not the case though. That's what's

17:11interesting is power can be a curse as

17:14can talent. Talent can be a a curse too

17:16because you don't work as hard because

17:18you [ __ ] everybody up in the gym and so

17:20you don't show up for practice

17:21sometimes. You still [ __ ] these guys up.

17:23They're just not on your level

17:24physically or for whatever reason.

17:26>> Yeah.

17:26>> And then there's guys that have that

17:28power that always just rely on that

17:30power and never really develop the

17:32fundamentals. And so like Deontay Wilder

17:35is a great example of that. Deontay

17:37Wilder, who I think is the greatest one

17:38punch knockout artist in the history of

17:40the heavyweight division. That [ __ ]

17:42guy.

17:43>> Whoa. And not a big guy.

17:45>> Yeah.

17:45>> But his power is nuts. And Teddy Atlas

17:47has the greatest uh definition of it,

17:50description of it. He said it's the

17:52great eraser. Any mistakes he makes, one

17:56shot erases them all.

17:58>> Yeah,

17:58>> it's so true.

17:59>> Oh, 100%. Yeah, it's uh I agree. I mean,

18:04>> but could you imagine if Deontay could

18:07move like Tyson Fury,

18:08>> right?

18:08>> If Deontay could box like Tyson Fury

18:11with also with that crazy insane power.

18:13>> Yeah, it's it's game over for anybody.

18:14>> It's game over for everybody in front of

18:16that guy. Not a single person, you know.

18:18>> This episode is brought to you by Blue

18:20Chew. Man, let's talk about Blue Chew.

18:22They're already the number one brand for

18:24better sex, but what they're doing with

18:26Blue Chew Gold is completely next level.

18:29Gold is a 4in-one formula designed to

18:32make your bedroom noisy again.

18:35Obviously, it gets you hard like you're

18:38back in your 20s, and everything is

18:40handled 100% online. But Gold boosts

18:43your arousal, getting you ready for sex

18:46physically and mentally. Plus, it

18:49dissolves under your tongue for faster

18:50absorption, so you get that spontaneous

18:53energy back. Look at the stats. Gold is

18:57three times stronger, five times faster,

18:59and eight times longerlasting than old

19:02school methods. Blue Chew Gold is the

19:05real deal. Right now, buy two months of

19:07Blue Chew Gold and get the third free

19:10with my code, Rogan. You will also

19:12receive free overnight shipping. Head

19:15over to bluechw.com for details and

19:17important safety information. Check it

19:20out. This ad and the products being

19:22advertised are intended for a United

19:24States audience. Yeah, if he could move

19:27like us, I mean, it's a tall [ __ ]

19:28order because no one can move like Usyk

19:30other than Usyk, but imagine if he could

19:32move like Usyk,

19:33>> right?

19:34>> You know, I mean, N has that crazy stop.

19:36Bang. One shot, you're in another

19:39[ __ ] dimension.

19:40>> Yeah. And that's, you know, there's and

19:42then

19:44um that's that's obviously like at a

19:46personal level like it some people are

19:48blessed with that talent like you said

19:50or a skill set or athleticism.

19:52>> Well, the power thing is just it seems

19:54like it's a gift.

19:55>> Yeah. No, it is. I mean I mean I think

19:57it was for us I was talking about Connor

19:59and he was talking about how the the

20:01muscles connect to the muscle head

20:03differently. It's like a long or short

20:04once and then you either have like that

20:06real explosive power but then your your

20:07cardio suffers. Whatever it is, he's

20:10going into it. It's a gift. I mean, can

20:12you develop it to some extent? Yeah, of

20:14course. Now,

20:18the other thing with with punching, with

20:19with striking is it's not always like

20:21power that knocks people out. It's the

20:23shot that you don't see coming that

20:24knocks you out.

20:25>> Sure.

20:25>> You know, and so

20:27>> it you know, then you can kind of

20:29equalize on on that playing field, I

20:31suppose, to some extent. If you're

20:34getting people guessing, you're getting

20:35people fainting, you're hitting them

20:36with shots that they're not seeing, then

20:38you're going to get similar, you know,

20:40knockout finishes like that.

20:43>> There's a lot of guys that knock a lot

20:44of people out that don't have one punch

20:46power for sure. Max Holloway is a great

20:47example of that. Like Max has never,

20:49even though he has knocked guys out with

20:50one shot, it's generally like after a

20:52bunch of damage,

20:53>> right?

20:54>> But I mean, Max talked about it pretty

20:56openly about guys like Connor, Jose

20:57Aldo, and he's like they just get tired

21:00quicker because of the speed and power.

21:01They're so explosive and it's so much

21:03energy to try to close the distance that

21:06quick and land those big nuclear bomb

21:08shots, but you only have a few of those

21:10in a whole fight.

21:12>> Yeah, I I feel like uh Max's

21:15um perspective on those two guys may be

21:18construed just because of I mean he

21:21fought Connor the first time I guess

21:22when Connor was in his prime, you know,

21:25and he was coming up.

21:26>> It was almost before his prime.

21:27>> It was it was on that rise.

21:28>> They were both kids. I think Max was 20

21:30at the time. Yeah, he was I think he was

21:32like the youngest UFC USC fighter at

21:34that time or something close to.

21:35>> He was a different human back then

21:37>> for sure. But I just think so like cuz

21:39Conor's cardio is something that I have

21:42noticed.

21:43It wasn't it wasn't super poor like

21:46initially when he was fighting at 145. I

21:48mean to me he never like Chad Mendes

21:50they had a lot of grappling exchanges.

21:52Chad took him down. Chad hit him with

21:53shots. you know, Connor just stayed

21:56nice, calm, cool, and collected and uh

21:58he he got back to the striking where he

22:01could do that, but to me, he never was

22:03like gassed out. But then you watch the

22:05second Diaz fight and he's running

22:07around the cage for five rounds. Now

22:09he's gone up in a weight class. So then

22:11it goes back to, you know, what's his

22:13what's his training regimen look like?

22:15He's he's not cutting as much weight, so

22:16he doesn't have to be as much as

22:18disciplined. His diet changes.

22:20>> There's a lot of aspects. So, like I

22:23don't know. Con that the Connor one was

22:25was weird to me just because I saw I saw

22:27a change in it when he was at 145. He he

22:30didn't have poor cardio. As soon as he

22:32left that weight class, his cardio

22:34waned. And then Jose Aldo, I mean, that

22:37guy was undefeated for what, 10 years, a

22:40champion for 10 years, and you never saw

22:42him get tired. And I never saw him get

22:45tired. Yeah, Max fought him at a certain

22:47point when he's a little bit older, this

22:48and that. So, I don't know. Maybe that's

22:50just Max's perspective on that. I'm not

22:52saying Max is incorrect in what he's

22:53saying, but um

22:56I don't know. There's there's to me

22:59there's just I haven't um pinpointed

23:03exactly what's the right and wrong way

23:05to do everything just because there's so

23:06many variables especially in MMA. I

23:07mean, we were kind of discussing a

23:09little bit earlier is it's not just

23:11solely that you have like good cardio

23:13that allows you to

23:16continue to perform in that fight.

23:18There's another aspect of how calm,

23:20cool, and collected you can be because,

23:22you know, like we were talking hitting

23:23the mids and something, if you're real

23:25tense and you're just trying to kill

23:26them, yeah, you're going to burn

23:27yourself out. But if you're fast and

23:29snappy, you're producing just as much,

23:31if not more power, and now you're being

23:34more efficient with it, you know? And

23:35so, um, I don't know. The cardio one is

23:39is a is a funky one in combat sports to

23:42me.

23:43>> It really is. But I think if you look at

23:45Jose Aldo, Jose Aldo when he was on top,

23:49when he was the king,

23:50>> he was wrecking everybody and he was the

23:53hammer most of the time and he was so

23:56athletic and so fast and had some of the

23:58best leg kicks we had ever seen. Like

24:00the Uriah Faber fight, how [ __ ] tough

24:02is Uriah Faber? Yeah,

24:03>> cuz like that guy, many, many, many

24:06humans would have been stopped a long

24:07time ago just from those leg kicks. And

24:09Uriah just kept trying to the very last

24:13second of the even though he was way

24:14behind the scorecards, never folded up

24:16his tent, he was still trying. But Aldo

24:19wasn't the nail. You know what I'm

24:21saying? Like there was there was very

24:22few moments in a fight where someone had

24:24really started overwhelming him. And one

24:27of the things that Max has always been

24:28so good at is knowing when to hit the

24:31gas and knowing when to just slowly ramp

24:34up the pressure. And you see guys start

24:36to fade. And Max is a cardio [ __ ]

24:38machine. I mean, super disciplined guy,

24:41right?

24:42>> And great camp. Those guys in Hawaii

24:44really prepare him well. He is always

24:47like 100. It's like the fight with Gachi

24:50fighting in the fifth round of a [ __ ]

24:52crazy chaotic war just at the same exact

24:55pace he was fighting in the first round,

24:56>> right?

24:57>> So, it's the experience of knowing what

24:59your body can do, when you can hit the

25:00gas, when you need to back off, when to

25:02move, when not to, and when you feel

25:04your opponent start to fade a little

25:06bit. You see the mouth being open a

25:08little bit more. You see the movement

25:09looks a little sloppier,

25:11>> right? Oh, 100%. That's Yeah. Knowing

25:13when to rest is is a big aspect of that

25:15as well because you go and you that's

25:17why a lot of the training you do is is

25:19that short burst. You know, you hit like

25:21your sprints. Um you know, you might

25:23maybe hit the straightaway on on the

25:24track and then you jog and maintain cuz

25:26in a fight you're never completely

25:28resting. You're always moving a little

25:29bit. Um so yeah, I mean that's that's a

25:33huge thing. the experience. I think his

25:35his style and and just what he's

25:37created, like you said, in his camp is

25:39is a high output, high volume

25:41individual. So, you know, his body's

25:43probably um

25:46become used to that and that's that's

25:49how he performs normally.

25:51>> Yeah, I was shocked that Connor wanted

25:52to fight him in his first fight back

25:55after years off. I mean, five years is a

25:58long time to not fight. And then to come

26:00back and fight a guy like Max who's been

26:02constantly fighting the best guys in the

26:05world and knowing that Max is a guy who

26:08never fades and he's in very diff gotten

26:12him out of there is Ilia

26:13>> and you know Ilia caught Max when Max

26:16went down from 55 down to 45 which I

26:18think was a a mistake. He was so big. He

26:21got so big to get up to 55 to fight

26:23Justin and he did it over a long period

26:26of time. Put a lot of mass on and then

26:28you essentially you're starving yourself

26:30to get down to 45 again. Your body's

26:31going to be weak no matter what you do.

26:33It's not like he was when he was

26:35fighting at 45. He maintained a lower

26:37weight class, knew exactly when to cut

26:39and would make it no problem each time.

26:42That last cut to 45 was a nightmare. It

26:44was a horror show. And so when he got in

26:47there with Ilia and then you're fighting

26:49El Matador, that [ __ ] you want

26:52to talk about technique, right?

26:53>> Technique and his strike, the smoothness

26:56and efficiency and the one punch. Go

26:59night power.

27:00>> I mean, that guy has it above. Who the

27:02[ __ ] did that to Charles Olivera the way

27:03that guy did? Yeah.

27:04>> I mean, that's nuts. He's got And up at

27:0655 when Oliver is a big 55, too.

27:09>> Yeah. I mean, yeah, him moving up to 55.

27:12Those are some those are some big dogs

27:14right there. big. Especially when you

27:16look at him and Justin. When him and

27:17Justin were like facing off each other,

27:18I'm like, that's a way bigger dude.

27:21>> Like Justin's bigger than me and Ilia is

27:23smaller than me. When I stand next to

27:24two of them, like this is crazy that

27:26Ilia has the kind of power that he's

27:28just wrecking guys even that are way

27:30bigger than him,

27:31>> right? Yeah. I mean, his his skill set

27:34is is amazing combined with the power.

27:37That's that's someone you talk about has

27:38a skill set and the punching power, you

27:40know, and encompasses both those things.

27:42It's Yeah, he's he's got it all. I mean,

27:45um and and the thing with him, too, is

27:48he's just so he's so calm, cool, and

27:50collected. I think that's also

27:53something. I mean, I I do a lot of like

27:55comparison from

27:57from Muay Thai boxing to the MMA world

28:00because, you know, I'm I'm in MMA, so I

28:03understand that there's so many

28:03different aspects to it where like

28:05someone could take you down and that's

28:06going to affect your your striking skill

28:09set. You know, if you got someone who's

28:11real dumb wrestler and you're and you're

28:13way better striker, if you're sitting

28:14there and worried about them taking you

28:16down and smothering you, your striking

28:18goes out the the window a little bit

28:19because now you have a whole different

28:21set of weapons that you're worrying

28:22about. Um

28:24>> and you can get caught easier.

28:25>> Yeah. Especially if you're like just

28:27loading up on them. Yeah. You're going

28:28to get ducked under and double egged and

28:30and then taken down. And that's that's

28:33the whole thing. But um

28:37I forgot where we even started this

28:39train of thought. But uh yeah, I mean I

28:42think it's his his collectness too, but

28:45I was I was saying there's comparisons

28:46to all these and that's what like boxing

28:48you see these guys. They might have a

28:49couple more rounds, but they come out

28:51and like the first round, maybe uh the

28:53second round is is a feeling out round.

28:55you know, it's it's a slow

28:58buildup where they're they're collecting

29:00data, they're setting traps, they're

29:02they're doing a lot of that. And you see

29:04that in MMA, just not at the same level.

29:06Obviously, there's a there's a greater

29:08skill set. There's more weapons to worry

29:09about. It is different. Um, but I don't

29:13know. I obviously I'm reaching for peak

29:16perfection with everything. So, if we're

29:18coming and we're looking at distance

29:19control, I think the boxers do it

29:21better. you know, if we're looking at

29:22setting up faints and and working off a

29:25jab, especially, I think that's I think

29:27that's the most frustrating thing when I

29:29watch MMA or UFC fights and watch the

29:33majority of the guys never never ever

29:35use a jab and it's always just this big

29:37overhand right. I'm like,

29:39>> like what are you doing? Like you have

29:40two hands like you have the jab, set it

29:42up. Now, I'm not saying that's

29:43everybody, but I see I see many people

29:46doing that. But that going back to

29:48Taporia, that's one thing that he does

29:50so well is he's a shorter guy. He sits

29:52back on that back foot. He's throwing

29:54that jab. He's he's understanding your

29:56distance control so he can get in and

29:58then that's where he's got that power

29:59and he lets that go.

30:00>> It's going to be interesting to see how

30:01he rebounds because that was a uh a lot

30:04of damage. He two fractured orbitals,

30:08you know, they had to stop the fight in

30:09between rounds.

30:10>> Yeah.

30:11>> And uh he took big punches from a guy

30:13who's got [ __ ] rocks in his hands.

30:15>> Yeah. I mean, Justin can crack.

30:17>> He Well, they call him what, the most

30:19violent most violent in the in the game,

30:21and I think that stands true. Uh, yeah,

30:24that's that's a hard one to bounce back

30:25from. It's going to take extra time of

30:28him really letting all his injuries heal

30:30and and be fully recovered before he

30:32even thinks about sparring again, you

30:34know, ever getting touched in the face

30:35again.

30:36>> Yeah, I don't know where he's at now,

30:38you know. Um, but I know that he's still

30:40recovering and it'll be a while. I mean,

30:42the fight was in June. We're doing this

30:43right now. It's August 30th. Was it 30th

30:46or 31st?

30:46>> 31st. Yeah.

30:47>> 31st.

30:48>> So, you know, he's had a couple of

30:50months, but you know, that he probably

30:51needs like six months before he's even

30:54sparring again.

30:54>> Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah. I mean, it's

30:57going to take some time. It's going to

30:58take some time. I mean, the thing that I

31:00really hate to see is when you guys you

31:01have undefeated individuals like that

31:04who have gone undefeated their whole

31:05career, feel invincible, and then it

31:08sometimes that one takes them off their

31:10pedestal, you know, like Jos Aldo's a

31:12great example of that of I mean, and he

31:14came back and he fought tough, but he

31:16just never was the same, right?

31:17>> He was never that untouchable. Um,

31:20you know, there's probably many people

31:22that I can touch back on, but yeah, hope

31:25I think hopefully that's that's the main

31:28thing that he's going to need is that

31:30that mental um indestructibility and to

31:34come back and just be like, I'm the same

31:36person. That one fight doesn't change

31:37anything and I'm ready to go do it

31:39again.

31:39>> Well, he's a very mentally strong guy

31:41and I think he will bounce back in that

31:44regard. It's just there's also the just

31:47the reality of how much damage and only

31:49he knows how much damage he actually

31:51took in that fight. Yeah.

31:52>> You know how that affects him as well

31:54because you know as well as anybody that

31:56there's only a few of those kind of

31:58fights that you could have in your

31:59career and you got to be very careful

32:02how you recover from those. And uh a lot

32:05of fighters, a lot of great fighters

32:06have made a mistake of coming back too

32:08soon. Uh Vulcganowski is one that I

32:10point to all the time who's arguably the

32:12greatest featherweight of all time. He

32:14is one of the most masterful fighters in

32:16the game. He took a short short notice

32:19fight with uh Islam uh in the rematch

32:22and got head kicked and then I think it

32:24was only four months later that he was

32:26fighting Ilia. And that is crazy. That's

32:29a crazy thing to do. He took a full head

32:31kick, shinned the dome, gets KO'ed, and

32:34then four months later he's fighting the

32:36[ __ ] scariest challenger that he's

32:37ever had to face,

32:38>> right? Yeah. 100%. You you can't rush

32:41back into those things. I mean,

32:42especially when you're that cemented,

32:44you don't really need to rush back into

32:46it, right? You know, you you have your

32:47legacy behind you.

32:48>> Well, you shouldn't have even taken that

32:50fight with Islam. There's no way you

32:52should take a world championship fight

32:53when you're hanging out with your

32:55buddies, drinking beer, you know, eating

32:57fish and chips or whatever the [ __ ] he

32:58was doing. And then

33:00>> hunting with Vul over there, you know,

33:01>> he's having a good time, but he wasn't

33:02in training. He said there's no way he

33:04was in train. He didn't look like he was

33:05in training physically. Like his body

33:07didn't look the same. did not like he

33:08looked out of shape, but he definitely

33:10looked smoother and less ripped than he

33:13usually does.

33:13>> There's a there's a difference to being

33:15in a two or three month fight camp of

33:18day in day out, two, three practices a

33:19day, the diet's set, the the mentality

33:22is set versus I'm just training.

33:25>> On the outside of that,

33:26>> when you came in on two days notice to

33:28fight Wellmaker, were you in training at

33:30all? Like what was your scenario?

33:33>> Uh I was doing uh food eating

33:35championship training. was killing uh

33:37double doubles and 3x3s. No, but with

33:40that one, I was I was fortunate because

33:43uh I I stayed strict pretty much year

33:46round. So, I had fought fought in

33:47January um at the beginning of the year

33:50and then I was supposed to fight

33:52multiple times and I just had I had two

33:53or three opponents pull out and then I

33:56fought November 7th for the title fight

33:58for the A1 combat which was Lydia of the

34:00weekend before. though. Fortunately, I

34:02did I was even though people were

34:05falling out, I I kept to the course. I

34:07stayed strong. I stayed in a fight camp

34:09mentality. That November 7th fight ended

34:13up happening. So, I had a strong two

34:15months. Now, still, even that one week

34:19difference of going being in a fight

34:21camp, and then I have a couple drinks at

34:23the casino, I'm eating food. And I

34:26thought to myself because January was it

34:29was a similar thing where they said

34:32February Australia

34:34get ready, get your passport, let's look

34:36into this, blah blah blah. You know, I

34:38had a had a nice knockout finish there.

34:41Um, but then yeah, just that one week of

34:44being off of of eating whatever I wanted

34:46to and just kind of doing whatever. I I

34:49ran once. I showed up to sparring and

34:51light touch sparred. Um, I had gone to

34:54one other practice cuz in my mind I was

34:55like, I need to be somewhat ready for

34:58this. Like I can have I can have a week.

35:00I've been in fight camp all year long. I

35:01can have one week and then that's the

35:03week that they call and say 48 hour

35:05notice MSG 10 and0 undefeated Malcolm

35:08Welmaker. You want it? And uh and then

35:11of course I'm going to can't say no to

35:12that one.

35:13>> So you fought the weekend before the

35:14Wmaker fight.

35:15>> I fought November 7th. Yeah.

35:17>> Wow. That's actually good.

35:20>> If you didn't get hurt.

35:21>> Yeah. Well, it was a minute and 30

35:24seconds. I knocked him out in the first

35:26round. So, it was it was to me it's just

35:28the stars aligned. I mean,

35:30>> don't you think it's also good that you

35:32just had the experience like seven days

35:34prior to the whole thing getting in the

35:36cage, cage shuts, you just fought. So,

35:39it's much more comfortable for you than

35:41if you had like Connor taking five years

35:43off. as elite as Connor is, double

35:46champ, one of the greatest of all time

35:48for that. Even a guy like that, you take

35:50five years off and you could see like

35:52what it did to him. It's like it [ __ ]

35:54with his head.

35:55>> Oh, yeah. You could you could see it. It

35:57there wasn't the same Connor energy

35:58going into it. Uh, of course, I I always

36:03want a quick turnaround like after I

36:05fight just for that very reason. I I I

36:08cut the weight. I know what that's like.

36:10I

36:12warmed up in the back with all the

36:14anticipation, you know, and that energy

36:16flowing through my body. I walked out in

36:18front of the crowd. They announced my

36:20name. I got in there. I I actually

36:22fought someone. So, yeah, if you have

36:24that going for you, then that's Yeah,

36:27it's way way better. For sure.

36:28>> Yeah. The more active you can be, the

36:30more comfortable you can be with the

36:31experience as long as you're not getting

36:33hurt. Yeah. Here's a stat that I was uh

36:35reading about Izzy. Um and people forget

36:38about this. when he was the champion, he

36:40defended his title a lot, man. He was

36:43the guy that they can go, "Hey, we need

36:45someone to headline this card." And Izzy

36:47would step in. And I think he fought

36:49three time he defended the world title

36:51three times in one year, which is crazy

36:54cuz I don't think the middleweight title

36:56since he's gone has even been contweight

37:02fights have there even been for the

37:04title since he's been gone. There's only

37:06been a few fights. I think there's only

37:09been

37:09>> I mean there's Sean and and

37:11>> and Drius Shawn and Drius two uh Drius

37:15and Hamzot

37:17>> and then Sean and Hamza

37:18>> and Sean and Hamza I mean it might

37:20literally be like maybe five fights

37:23since he's lost the title and [ __ ] he

37:26defended it more than anybody

37:28>> right yeah which is crazy he defended it

37:29three times in one year

37:31>> and then you have

37:32>> this you know huge span of time in

37:34between defenses

37:35>> but then there's a question of like What

37:37is the when does it become a benefit and

37:40when does it become a detriment? Like

37:42when when you're fighting too many times

37:44a year like the Morab Davish Willie

37:46fight um one of the things that a lot of

37:49people talked about after Per Yan beat

37:52him in the rematch was what about the

37:54strength of schedule? I mean Morab was

37:56fighting constantly. He was fighting. He

37:59fought so often and for so many years

38:01that you got to think that at a certain

38:03point in time maybe he's doing himself a

38:06disservice by being so active.

38:08>> Yeah. I mean, for sure. Um I don't know.

38:12I mean, that's

38:14it's something you got to feel out for

38:15yourself, you know? It's it's something

38:17that you have to know in your heart of

38:19hearts. And

38:20>> nobody else can tell you that. Your

38:21coach can't be like, "No, you're

38:22training really well these days. You're

38:24super sharp. This and that." like if

38:26something's off realistically,

38:29you should be perfect going into your

38:30fight, especially at a at a world

38:32championship caliber. Um, it's just I

38:36mean, I keep making these comparisons,

38:37but it's another thing that I I go back

38:39to with the boxing world is these guys

38:41look at it as a business. Like, look at

38:43Floyd Mayweather. Like, everything was

38:45like he he made sure that the the cage

38:47was his side. He picked the gloves. It

38:49was certain people at certain times. And

38:51there's there's some things to be said

38:53about that, but it's a business mindset.

38:54It's a very smart approach to it. You

38:56know, I'm fighting when I'm ready. I'm

38:58not fighting injured, which is which is

38:59more of the main thing is like people go

39:01in there with injuries and, you know,

39:04get hurt or or lose even. It's like

39:06that's that could be detrimental on your

39:08record. I think the MMA guys are a

39:10little bit more on the the tough side

39:12instead of the the business side of

39:13things where they'll they'll fight

39:15anyone any time, which I mean, that's

39:17how you got to be, but that's how you

39:19build your team around you. you have a

39:21team that tells you, hey, you know, this

39:23time isn't isn't necessarily the best to

39:25go into it and this and that and just

39:27being a little bit smarter about your

39:29schedule. It's like, yeah, us fighters

39:31are going to sit there and go, I'll

39:32fight anyone any given time. Um, doesn't

39:35matter, but yeah, this is this is a

39:38business. It's not just um fighting like

39:42getting in that cage solely. It's it's a

39:44lot of aspects that go into it. Don't

39:45you think it's way more difficult to go

39:48into a fight perfect in MMA than it is

39:50in boxing, though? In boxing, it seems

39:52like it's much easier to avoid injuries.

39:54>> For sure. There's there's there's

39:55differences. I just I reflect back to

39:58that. I like the way that they conduct

39:59themselves. I think it's it's and and

40:01there's a lot that's to be said to that

40:03cuz it's it's a longer standing sport.

40:06>> There's been more time and experience

40:08into it.

40:09>> But yeah, 100%. I mean, you know, I I

40:12was before this April fight, I the first

40:16round of the day of sparring, I was just

40:19going light with Callum Bisping for

40:22literally one second and we moved around

40:24and he's a heavyweight. We moved around.

40:26He took me took he tried to take me

40:27down. I stuffed. He took me down and I

40:29kind of just sat with it because I

40:30didn't want to get caught in any, you

40:32know, knee tweaking positions or

40:33anything cuz he's just so much heavier

40:34than I am. And I sat into a butterfly,

40:36which is typically how I would do that.

40:38elevate the hips immediately and try to

40:40make a scramble and my my meniscus just

40:44popped instantly right then and there.

40:45First round of the day, barely barely

40:48had done anything. Barely started and it

40:50wasn't even like a a crazy position, but

40:53yeah, now I sustained injury. Now I

40:56don't go against heavyweights anymore

40:57because

40:57>> you should never be doing that as a

40:59bantamweight. You should not be sparring

41:01with heavy.

41:02>> Well, that's why I go the first day I'm

41:03or not the first day but the first round

41:04and I'm just trying to warm up. There's

41:06there's a lot of things to be said. I I

41:07grow and I and I learn and I get smarter

41:09every time.

41:10>> I think you should only spar with guys

41:11that are reasonably close to your

41:12weight, period.

41:13>> 10 10 pounds is probably a maximum above

41:16you. You know, you shouldn't be going

41:17with anybody more than that.

41:18>> Yeah, I get I get smarter with these

41:20things. I I do dumb things and uh

41:22>> I figure

41:24for the for the most of my history, I've

41:27had to learn the hard way with things.

41:29So, uh I'm getting better at it. I'm

41:30getting smarter. So, but like I said, it

41:32was just a freak thing. It wasn't like

41:33we were going crazy hard or anything

41:35like it just was the first round I just

41:38trying to move and and then some little

41:39thing happened.

41:41>> Uh it wasn't a full full tear but it

41:43happened back in like Februaryish right

41:46before that that April one. So leading

41:48up to the Estabon fight it's like I

41:49didn't grapple till the last maybe maybe

41:53month of it maybe.

41:54>> Oh so it was bothering you even before

41:55that fight.

41:56>> It was all the way up to it. I mean like

41:57that's that's when it happened was the

41:58April fight which was the Eston fight.

42:00>> Wow. Wow. So yeah, it's it's very

42:04difficult to avoid everything, you know,

42:06like there's a lot of different things

42:08that won't even seem like a detrimental

42:10position, but yeah, you got grappling,

42:12which can tweak all sorts of different

42:14parts of the body. Uh a simple cut from

42:17from striking can happen very easily. So

42:20for sure, it's it's much more abundant

42:22in the MMA world because there are more

42:24weapons. There's a lot of variations of

42:26things to watch out for. Um, but that

42:30being said, I like to carry, like I

42:32said, this is a smart man's game. I like

42:33to carry a a level of of business-wise

42:36and and smartwise to this. And that's so

42:39though the

42:42um exact functions may differ. It's it's

42:45the mindset that I like to carry from

42:47it.

42:47>> Right. It's a Well, it what you said is

42:49perfect that it's a long business.

42:51Boxing's been around for a long time and

42:53the really elite trainers, the re the

42:55really elite coaches, they know how to

42:57prepare their fighters and they know

42:59what fights to take and when to take

43:01them, right?

43:01>> And unfortunately with the UFC, like

43:04sometimes

43:06you get a call like the Malcolm

43:08Wellmaker fight, you know, and you're

43:10like, "Oh [ __ ] it would have been nice

43:12to get two months to prepare for

43:13Malcolm, but I have two days, right?

43:17>> And I just fought. [ __ ] it. Roll the

43:20dice." And you also were coming out of

43:23nowhere and I don't think a lot of

43:25people had time to prepare for you cuz

43:27as good as you are when you fought

43:29Wellmaker when you fought uh how do you

43:31say his name? Estavan. What is his

43:33>> Raphael Estan?

43:34>> Rav Estan. He was also undefeated and

43:39super skillful. He was a really good

43:41fighter and still is. But um to have

43:44those two performances in a row, the way

43:47you looked, you looked like a guy like

43:48if you were

43:5020 years ago, you would have been a

43:52[ __ ] alien. Like no one had seen

43:54anybody like you before. That's how much

43:55this sport has grown just in 20 years.

43:58If you go back to like Ultimate Fighter

44:00season 1, there was [ __ ] nobody like

44:02you. Nobody like you back then,

44:04>> right? You know, it really wasn't until

44:06Anderson burst onto the scene shortly

44:08after that that we really got to see

44:11that kind of elite level of striking.

44:14>> Yeah. I mean,

44:16>> yeah, talk about an alien for that time.

44:18That was Anderson Silva. That's that's

44:20one of the top to ever do it. There's

44:21there's no question.

44:22>> Oh my god. People forget because maybe

44:24they see his later fights in his career,

44:27>> but you go back and watch him when he

44:28was in his prime. I remember when when

44:30he fought Chris Leeben, and Chris Leeben

44:32is a murderous puncher. like one of the

44:35hardest punchers that's ever fought in

44:36the UFC. He's he's one of those guys

44:38that's got that [ __ ] god-given crack,

44:41>> right?

44:41>> And he's just such a warrior. I mean,

44:43wades into the storm, you know,

44:46>> but that style is tailorade for him. And

44:49when I was looking at the odds, a friend

44:50of mine was there. I go, "Bet the house

44:53on the Brazilian." I go, "Bet the

44:55house." I go, "Listen to me. This is a

44:58[ __ ] dude. Just wait." because

45:00that's when he really came into his own

45:03uh over in Cage Rage

45:05>> when he that's when he really became

45:07Anderson Silva.

45:08>> That was a yellow cage. Was that Cage?

45:10Yes. That's when he did that

45:11>> the the elbow. The crazy elbow.

45:13>> Yeah. Tony Frricklin.

45:16>> Yeah. What was the It was like a upkick.

45:19Like a crescent up kick. Was that Pride

45:20or was that the cage rage?

45:22>> He was on the bottom and he whipped his

45:24leg over the top. It wasn't like a

45:25straight up kick. He He kind of like

45:27brought it over. Oh, I don't remember

45:29that one.

45:29>> Yeah, I don't I don't recall either.

45:31>> Who Who was he fighting?

45:32>> I don't know. I'm not I'm not good at

45:34names always.

45:34>> So, in Pride, it was uh who was he

45:37fighting here, Jamie?

45:38>> Uh Japanese gentleman.

45:41>> Y Nokami. Oh, Yushkami. This was Rumble

45:44on the Rock. This is BJ Penn's

45:46promotion. Look at that. Oh,

45:48>> yeah. He's just doing things that like

45:50>> you nobody had ever thought of at that

45:52time.

45:53>> He gets that right leg loose, ties his

45:55hands up. Bow. That's crazy. And Okami

45:59was a beast. And they fought again in

46:01the UFC later and he he KO'ed Okami.

46:04>> Yeah. Stuff like that. The elbow you're

46:06talking about just like

46:08>> just a pioneer for it. You know, it's

46:10not like he's watching film. He's not

46:11sitting on YouTube watching

46:13>> people do these things prior. He's the

46:15one that's coming up with this.

46:16>> Yeah. This is the crazy elbow. You know

46:17what the the funny story about this

46:19elbow? He was training that and his

46:21coach told him, "Stop doing that. You're

46:22not going to do that." And

46:24>> so he made his wife hold pillows at home

46:26>> and he was [laughter] he was practicing

46:28it at home. He was having her hold a

46:30pillow and he was just working on the

46:31mechanics of that elbow. It's like he

46:33wanted to prove his coach wrong, right?

46:34>> And he wanted to get the knockout with

46:36that that technique

46:37>> and lo and behold, he did it.

46:40>> Well, he had some great fights over

46:41there. Um particularly the um uh the Lee

46:45Murray fight. Did you ever see that

46:46fight?

46:47>> Um probably I Murray is right. He's the

46:50the British dude that

46:52>> became a bank robber.

46:53>> He was the bank robber. Correct. Yeah.

46:54>> Biggest heist in UK history.

46:57>> Yeah.

46:57>> Yeah.

46:57>> And that was a bad dude, too.

46:59>> Oh, he was a bad mother.

47:00>> Everybody was scared of that dude.

47:01>> Well, that guy could crack. He was

47:03another guy. Had crazy power and just a

47:05vicious dude. Just an absolutely vicious

47:07guy who was legitimate criminal.

47:09>> Yeah, exactly. He had that like that

47:11whole aura and persona to him.

47:12>> Yeah. He was a real gangster.

47:14>> Yeah. That that brings a little bit more

47:15of like this, you know, I don't want to

47:17say fear, but like, oh, who's this guy?

47:19You know,

47:20>> the [ __ ] guy was an elite fighter and

47:22he was also a elite criminal,

47:25>> right? [laughter] Yeah. He's

47:26multi-talented.

47:28>> I mean, that's something in a movie.

47:30Like a guy like who's a top tier

47:33criminal who also competes and wins in

47:36the UFC,

47:37>> right? Yeah.

47:38>> And won by triangle. He beat uh Jorge

47:41Rivera by triangle.

47:43>> Yeah. And it's crazy. I know. And you

47:46have Anderson come in and just demolish

47:48this dude. Yeah.

47:49>> Just wrecked him. And he wrecked him

47:50with technique. And it was a lot of it

47:51was leg kicks.

47:52>> Yeah.

47:53>> He just Anderson's Muay Thai was at such

47:55a different level. It was so artistic.

47:58>> Yeah. I think that's the perfect word to

48:00describe that was artistic cuz just

48:02beautiful the way he set things up. I

48:04mean, he made elite guys look

48:07>> very brand new in the cage. And uh

48:10>> I I didn't see very many close fights

48:11with him till later in his career.

48:13>> Yeah, it's a later in his career thing.

48:15And I always say that with fighters, you

48:17really have to look at them when they

48:18were at their highest RPM, whatever.

48:21It's you generally it's only a few

48:22years,

48:23>> but that few years like judge them by

48:25that. Judge them by those performances

48:27when they were just on fire.

48:29>> And I I tell people you have to always

48:32go back and watch those Anderson fights

48:34when he front kick Vtor in the face,

48:36>> right?

48:37>> First time anybody had ever won by

48:38knockout with a front kick to the face

48:40in the UFC. Now people do it all the

48:42time,

48:42>> right?

48:42>> But I didn't even think that was a good

48:44option. Like there's a video of and I

48:46grew up kicking. There's a video of me

48:49and Eddie Bravo. We're working with

48:50those Bob one of those Bob dummies and

48:52he's like, "What do you think about a

48:53front kick to the face?" I'm like, "It's

48:55better to the body. I mean, you could

48:57land it to the face, but you know, I

48:58don't really see very many guys do it.

49:00It's much more wrong."

49:02>> Yeah, [laughter]

49:03>> it's perfect.

49:03>> Just watch the Anderson Silva fight.

49:05>> And everybody does it now. So many guys

49:07get knockouts with a front kick to the

49:08face because you don't see it coming

49:09when it comes straight up the middle. If

49:11everything's coming around and all a

49:13sudden something comes straight up the

49:14middle and catches the bottom of your

49:15chin.

49:16>> For sure. I I like um I I like that side

49:20kick to the body to the liver, throwing

49:21that heel in the liver. I think that's

49:24>> more of a natural motion, but I have

49:26been working with the front kicks. I

49:27like them a lot. Uh especially with that

49:29with the weight on the back leg a little

49:31bit and especially with these calf

49:32kicks, people are really trying to bear

49:35down and throw the calf kick hard.

49:37That's that's uh was going to be my

49:40technique in my last one was when that

49:41when that calf kick comes off the very

49:43beginning because that's what Fa does is

49:46comes out he control looks for his

49:48distance and he bases down he throws

49:50that calf kick almost every single time

49:52against every opponent and I was like

49:54you know especially because I was

49:55planning on going there one-handed and I

49:58was like I just going to pull this front

50:00leg up front front kick to the face and

50:02it's going to land. It's going to be

50:04beautiful. But yeah, I started to work

50:05that like you you put all that weight on

50:07that back leg. This one comes up fast

50:09and the one I like better, especially

50:10with the boxing as I come down here is

50:13uh kind of getting that lean forward and

50:15you're stepping back and then when

50:16people think your face is in range

50:18forward, you just pull back and throw

50:19that one straight up the middle

50:21>> and you're talking off the front leg

50:22>> off the back leg on this on the second

50:24one. You're kind of basing out here and

50:25you're you're stepping back onto the to

50:27the back leg and when they open up like

50:29they're going to throw something,

50:31>> you lean back and throw it up the

50:32middle.

50:32>> Yeah. changing the distance there so

50:35people don't expect it.

50:36>> For the calf kick, you're just light on

50:38the front leg and you're throwing it off

50:39the front leg. Are you sliding forward?

50:41Are you just picking it up and stabbing?

50:43>> I just pick it up and stab it cuz they

50:45got to close a little bit of distance to

50:46get that calf.

50:47>> Mhm.

50:47>> That one's um you know, the kick is a

50:49longer range, but that one you have to

50:50come a little bit closer

50:52>> for me to throw it appropriately. Some

50:54people smack it with the the foot or

50:55whatever it is. I don't like that. I

50:57like that Dutch style almost like a

50:59soccer kick. just you're you're raising

51:00it straight up and that shin bone is

51:02touching that soft calf. And so to do it

51:05that way, I get a little bit closer

51:07distance, but then that's where, you

51:08know, you set it up and all the other

51:09stuff. You be a little safer doing it

51:12that way.

51:12>> Yeah, the calf kick is interesting

51:14because a lot of guys are kind of just

51:16going straight up,

51:18>> right?

51:18>> You know, like you ever see Yukioza

51:20fight?

51:21>> He's one of my favorite guys to watch

51:23fights. That's That's probably like the

51:24perfect example of throwing a very um

51:28deliberate and and technical calf kick

51:31is how he does it.

51:32>> He destroys people's legs. Destroys

51:34them. And he's kicking up. He's kicking

51:36up all the time. And there's no pivot.

51:38And it's so fast.

51:39>> It's so fast. And there's no tell. And

51:41he's throwing it in every combination.

51:43So he's hitting you with a jab. He's

51:45inside low kicking you. The left hook,

51:47he's outside low kicking you.

51:49>> Yeah. He's smacking you from all the

51:50different levels

51:51>> constantly and taking out your base

51:53every time. Every time you're close

51:54enough, he's taking out your base every

51:56time. Every time from all angles. I love

51:58watching this guy fight. He does that

51:59cool thing, too. Like what he just did.

52:01Check out that. Watch that. They gave

52:03him trouble for that cuz you're not

52:04supposed to do that in kickboxing. See,

52:05he does that. He hooks the guy's leg.

52:07>> So, he throws like a halfspeed kick.

52:09Show back it up again so you can see

52:11that. He throws like a half speed kick,

52:12holds it,

52:13>> and then trips him.

52:14>> My dad was actually just talking about

52:16that one with me. That's That's very

52:18clean technique.

52:19But he is such a wild guy to watch

52:22because of the damage that he does to

52:25guy's legs.

52:26>> So this is what I love about the

52:28artistic aspect of it and the technical

52:30aspect. When people figure out, okay,

52:31what do you do when you're fighting a

52:33guy like this? Well, Jonathan Hagerty

52:34figured it out. It's constant switch

52:37stances, constant knees to the body,

52:40moving, jabbing, constant movement. You

52:42never let him get set up for those, you

52:44know, and he took a lot of leg kicks and

52:46that, but he landed way more than he

52:47took. and he won the decision against

52:49Yozos. It was a big win, but it was also

52:52like a blueprint. Like if people got to

52:54see that fight, they see it. See you can

52:55find that fight. Jonathan Hagerty and

52:57Yuki Yoza.

52:58>> He did a really good job of picking that

52:59front leg up. That's And that's going

53:01back to MMA is something that it's still

53:02developing, but I don't see a lot of

53:04guys defend the calf kick. I see a lot

53:07of guys willingly eat them. Yes.

53:09>> And it's like you do that with the

53:10shining guards on, you could probably

53:12spar all day and take calf kicks, you

53:14know,

53:14>> sort of

53:15>> if they're landing clean, like really

53:17clean. Yeah, you're gonna feel it. Yeah.

53:18But for the most part, you pick the leg

53:20up, you pull it back a little bit, it

53:21doesn't land super flush. You could take

53:23it with shin guards on. You take you

53:25take one good one with no shinguards on,

53:27it's a completely different game. It it

53:29takes, you know, you're that leg away

53:30from you.

53:31>> This episode is brought to you by

53:32Superpower. Your doctor spends eight

53:34minutes with you and your insurance

53:36decides what blood work you get. That's

53:39not healthcare. It's a broken system.

53:41With Superpower, you take control. It

53:43starts by testing over

53:46150 biomarkers. But what really sets

53:48Superpower apart from other blood

53:50testing companies is what comes next.

53:53They connect your blood work with real

53:55time wearable data, health history, and

53:58genetics to uncover patterns others miss

54:01and deliver personalized guidance you

54:03can't get anywhere else. This is

54:05healthcare built for individuals, not

54:08institutions. Go to superpower.com/rogan

54:12to save $50 on your membership. Yeah.

54:14So, look how Jonathan is never

54:16stationary. Constantly switching

54:18stances. Look, I mean, literally

54:20constantly and constant movement. And

54:22then when you're thinking about the

54:23legs, the jab, the step forward, knee,

54:26everything is constant movement. There's

54:28never a chance for Yoza to set up. And

54:31nice spinning back kick to the body

54:32there.

54:33>> So close, too.

54:33>> Yeah, I know. He's He's wicked, man.

54:35This dude's wicked. But Hagerty figured

54:37him out, man. Look at that outside low

54:39kick on a hop. I mean, in constant

54:42stance switches and that switch knee to

54:44the body. Look, Yoza is looking for

54:45those, man. If you you could only take

54:48so many of them from this guy, too. He's

54:49got [ __ ] stones for shins.

54:51>> Yeah. Yeah. He's got no nerve endings on

54:54anything below the knees.

54:56>> It's really incredible, man. Watching

54:58this fight is uh a real masterclass in

55:01striking. And this one thing that I

55:02always give credit to one for. I think

55:05one has the absolute best strikers when

55:08it comes to just pure striking, right?

55:10And the exciting guys that they have

55:13over there. Uh

55:14>> Azadullah Iman Gazalia, have you seen

55:16that guy fight?

55:17>> Yeah.

55:17>> He's my favorite. That I [ __ ] love

55:20watching that guy fight. Like it's like

55:21Jesus Christ, he's good.

55:23>> And one of the guys that he trains with

55:25just fought in the PFL, Mega Med. Did

55:27you see that fight?

55:28>> No.

55:29>> I forget how to say his name. It's like

55:32I think it's Abu or a I forget his name

55:34but uh he put on a masterclass in

55:37striking and he looked just like I uh

55:39like uh Azadullah Iman Gazalia like the

55:42way he was fighting like that style long

55:44tall striker and these Dagistan guys man

55:48you got Dagistan's got elite Muay Thai

55:50too that's crazy. Yeah that's a dude uh

55:53Amruu Amu Magamemedov. Well, speaking of

55:56that,

55:56>> show me a little bit of that cuz this

55:57cat, he fights just like Acadullah, like

56:01very similar. And I know they're from

56:03the same place.

56:04>> You talk about artistic, that's like

56:05Zabarov

56:07is another one.

56:08>> Yes. Yeah. He and he was kind of the

56:10first of those guys that you go, "Oh, I

56:12I think of these guys as wrestlers." But

56:15look at this guy. He's throwing 360

56:17roundhouse kicks and wheel kicks.

56:18>> Well, he was doing like I don't know,

56:20not kung fu, but one of those practices

56:23before he was ever wrestling.

56:26Yeah, it was like Sancheu or something.

56:28>> But you watch this cat fight. He fights

56:30just like Azadullah. He's got that long

56:32reach,

56:34slick striking, wicked kicks. He he

56:37throws a lot of high kicks.

56:40And that dude Alvarez that he's fighting

56:42was tough as [ __ ] dude, cuz he he he

56:44took a lot before he finally wilted.

56:46>> You could see he's hurting from the leg

56:48kicks already before that. Oh,

56:49>> he's getting destroyed.

56:52>> Vicious. Being a long guy like that is

56:54just so much more beneficial. That's why

56:56everybody thinks it's all these big

56:57muscle heads like like the OG UFC that

57:00that's that's the fighter [laughter]

57:01build.

57:02>> The guy on the the guy on top of the

57:04world with his fist.

57:05>> It's like it's the tall long like skinny

57:07guy that can strike. Well, like that's

57:09the perfect like MMA build.

57:10>> Yeah, because they can strike you from

57:12six inches away from where you can

57:14strike them. That's a crazy advantage.

57:16Yeah, that's a back to where was with

57:19Tai on Thursday, whatever it was. And

57:21he's like I want to say he said 78 inch

57:24reach.

57:25>> Wow.

57:25>> He's like he's like I have a 78 inch

57:28reach. He's like so I can touch you guys

57:29from this and that and southpaw and blah

57:31blah blah. But I'm like well yeah like

57:33>> that's like a light heavyweight reach.

57:34>> Yeah. It's like well no dude they both

57:36of those guys have crazy long reach.

57:38It's ridiculous.

57:39>> Real real long arms, real long legs.

57:40Perfect for triangles. Perfect for for

57:42any kind of dar guillotines anything.

57:45rear nakeds. Rear naked with an arm in.

57:47>> Yeah. And then you fight southpaw like

57:48this.

57:49>> It's like you can touch from a million

57:50miles away. That's what me I'm the

57:52opposite. My whole style is all the way

57:54out or all the way in. I I got to get in

57:56and get to work in there, you know? And

57:58and there's something to be said about

57:59that, too, because those two styles

58:01cancel each other out. If you have a

58:03long guy, he's not going to fight as

58:05well on the inside. It's not saying that

58:06he can't, especially with the Muay Thai,

58:09the way they clinch is actually very

58:11efficient. And and with the boxing

58:14stuff, opening stuff up and being able

58:15to get your your longer limbs in there

58:17is is perfectly viable as well. It's

58:20just you got to play off of your of you

58:23know, your god-given talents and your

58:25assets. And so the shorter guy is going

58:28to negate the long guy by getting

58:29inside. And if the long guy can maintain

58:31the distance and keep him there, then

58:33he's going to win that.

58:34>> Yeah, there's benefits to all body

58:36types. It's just knowing what to do with

58:38that body type. Like look, Mike Tyson is

58:41arguably the greatest heavyweight of all

58:43time. He's in the in the conversation

58:45with Ali and Joe Lewis and

58:49there's a few guys that you could like

58:51put into that that category as the

58:53greatest heavyweight of all time. And I

58:56think Mike Tyson certainly in his prime

58:58was right there.

58:59>> Yeah.

58:59>> You know, Lennox Lewis, you got to put

59:01Lennox Lewis in that conversation. Even

59:04prime time Larry Holmes, you got to put

59:06him in that conversation, right? But

59:07Mike Tyson was 5'11, you know, as a

59:11heavyweight. That's crazy. And he was

59:12only like 215, 220 in his prime. But

59:15that bombing and weaving and constant

59:17movement, he would just overwhelm guys.

59:19You see the tall guys putting their

59:20hands out, they just they were just

59:22dealing with this [ __ ] Wolverine that

59:24was running towards them.

59:25>> Yeah. And and I had just seen something

59:28from him or read a quote and he he said

59:30it wasn't my physicality that was my

59:32greatest asset. It was my elusiveness.

59:34It was that I was so elusive that I

59:36could get in and I could get to work,

59:38you know.

59:38>> Yes.

59:38>> And

59:40a lot of people, unless you're like a

59:42real um practitioner or, you know, a

59:46student of the sport, they don't see

59:47that. They just see they just see the

59:49bombs coming and they attribute that to

59:52he's got punching power. He's this

59:53monster. But there's just so much more

59:55intricate. You know, it's like you said

59:58about Anderson, like this is an art

1:00:00form. This is it's a game of of setting

1:00:04things up. It's a chess match. You know,

1:00:05everybody looks at it like it's

1:00:06checkers, but it's there's so many more

1:00:08moves that could be made and that need

1:00:10to be made to be the best at this.

1:00:12>> And you really want to be appreciated by

1:00:14the people that understand that. You

1:00:16don't want to be the guy that gives into

1:00:18the the howls and the the cheers of the

1:00:20casuals. The the real feeling, the good

1:00:23feeling that fighters get is when

1:00:25someone is a true student of the game,

1:00:27who really understands what they like, I

1:00:29love it when you're doing this. I love

1:00:31that thing you do when you do. There's

1:00:33those that's what guys want to hear.

1:00:34They want to hear like from their fellow

1:00:37fighters. Like if you know a like when

1:00:39an elite fighter goes up to another

1:00:40elite fighter, it's like, "Bro, I

1:00:42[ __ ] love what you're doing." You

1:00:44could see they're like, "Thank Like it's

1:00:45like hits different% means more when

1:00:49when you know that a guy is really

1:00:50operating at a very high level,

1:00:52>> right? Yeah. Cuz the rest of the people

1:00:54have never stepped room into even a gym

1:00:56to spar or like go a couple rounds of

1:00:58grappling, you know? So it's

1:00:59>> they often times they don't know what

1:01:01they're seeing.

1:01:01>> They have no understanding.

1:01:02>> Sometimes they think when the guy's

1:01:03missing it's cuz he sucks, you You know

1:01:05what is funny is that

1:01:08even I have had that realization cuz

1:01:10like growing up it was like me and my

1:01:11pops watching UFC and to me I you know

1:01:14that was that was my thing. But I would

1:01:16always sit there and go well why doesn't

1:01:18this guy do this? It's right there. Just

1:01:19do that. It's right there. It's like

1:01:21dude you're not standing in a cage

1:01:23surrounded by thousands of people. You

1:01:25don't have the same fatigue. You don't

1:01:26know injuries you're going into with it.

1:01:28you don't know what you practiced

1:01:30leading up to it that you even have the

1:01:32capacity to think about and to act on.

1:01:35It's like there's just so many things.

1:01:36So like I watch stuff now and I'm so

1:01:39much better at that because I'm sitting

1:01:41there going he could do that but I don't

1:01:43know what he's seeing, you know? I don't

1:01:44know what's going on in his mind. So

1:01:46>> yeah, there's there's different levels

1:01:47to it.

1:01:48>> Yeah, for sure. It's I mean it's a very

1:01:51complex game. It really is. I wanted to

1:01:54ask you a question. Do you think that it

1:01:56was a benefit for you to lose your first

1:01:58two fights? Do you think there's maybe

1:02:00something to that? Cuz we were talking

1:02:02about your first two opponents in the

1:02:03UFC being undefeated until they fought

1:02:05you. They had never experienced loss as

1:02:09a professional before and then they get

1:02:11on this crazy big hype thing. And

1:02:13there's something about being undefeated

1:02:15as well, especially when you're a guy

1:02:17like Wellmaker who's not just

1:02:18undefeated, but a knockout artist. Like

1:02:20people get really really jazzed up and

1:02:22excited about that.

1:02:24Do you think that maybe having that bad

1:02:26feeling of loss earlier in your career

1:02:29maybe grounded you more?

1:02:31>> Yeah, certainly. I uh I went six and0

1:02:34undefeated as an amateur, but I can tell

1:02:37you at that time I was not living a

1:02:40fighter's lifestyle to the fullest. You

1:02:42know, at that time I would literally go

1:02:45to practice in the morning and then I

1:02:47had to go to work at night or whatever.

1:02:49But I was like, man, fighting is the

1:02:50best. You just go wake up, practice

1:02:52once, you get to kick it. the whole rest

1:02:54of the day you get to go fight and make

1:02:55all this money and and live your dream.

1:02:57That's all it takes. This is this is

1:02:59cool and all and I'm winning all these

1:03:00amateur scene fights which that's what

1:03:02the amateurs are for for learning and

1:03:05getting your experience. But um yeah, it

1:03:09really showed me that there was change

1:03:11that needed to be be made in what I did

1:03:15with with fighting and what I did

1:03:17outside of fighting. And outside of

1:03:19fighting was was arguably more

1:03:21important. you know, there was a lot

1:03:22that I needed to change, uh, a lot that

1:03:25I needed to refocus on and and make

1:03:27right by. And it wasn't until I did

1:03:30those things that I saw this this

1:03:34drastic change. You know, it wasn't

1:03:35until I that I erased all the negatives

1:03:38and then filled it with all the

1:03:39positives that I'm able to be on a

1:03:4210ight win streak doing what I'm doing

1:03:44now because who knows? I mean, maybe

1:03:47maybe I would have changed that, but I

1:03:49don't think it would have been as

1:03:51drastic if I hadn't experienced those

1:03:53two losses the way I did.

1:03:55>> So, before those two losses, your first

1:03:58two professional fights, were you kind

1:04:00of [ __ ] off?

1:04:01>> Yeah, for sure.

1:04:02>> Yeah. What were you doing?

1:04:04>> Just everything. I mean,

1:04:06>> drinking, [snorts] partying,

1:04:07>> smoking, drinking, being a delinquent,

1:04:09being

1:04:10>> not the best partner. Um,

1:04:12>> how old were you back then? Uh, I came

1:04:14back from college in 2017. I, uh, tore

1:04:18my meniscus in a dual meet and then my

1:04:21coach was

1:04:22>> same knee.

1:04:22>> Uh, my right knee, different knee. Coach

1:04:25is an [ __ ] about it. I snap, crackle,

1:04:27popped all the way through the rest of

1:04:28the season. Wasn't until after an

1:04:30[ __ ] about in what way? Like you

1:04:31didn't want to make

1:04:32>> He just ignored it like completely. He

1:04:33just pretty much told me suck it up.

1:04:35Like,

1:04:36>> oh, what a great coach.

1:04:37>> And uh, yeah, exactly. That's why I

1:04:39didn't go back. I mean, it was a lot of

1:04:41things. I was in Bristol, Tennessee. So,

1:04:43it's like there's [snorts] not a whole

1:04:45lot to do out there coming from SoCal.

1:04:46So, that was a a culture shock. I was on

1:04:49my own for the very first time. And

1:04:51then, yeah, I got hurt. So, then I

1:04:53started I don't know, everybody else is

1:04:55out there partying and stuff. I never

1:04:56partied. I grew up very religious. I was

1:04:58very strict. I all throughout high

1:05:00school, I didn't I didn't touch

1:05:02anything. I didn't look anything. I

1:05:03didn't wanted to partake in anything. I

1:05:05I just wrestled. That was my only drug

1:05:07was wrestling back then, you know? Like,

1:05:09that's all I did. And I had a lot of

1:05:10success then. And it wasn't until I

1:05:13deviated from that course and I started

1:05:15finding

1:05:18fun or enjoyment or just maybe just

1:05:21trying to fill time and and numb some of

1:05:24the things that I was thinking about or

1:05:25worrying about or like that wrestling

1:05:27thing. It might not have been the

1:05:29biggest thing to people, but for me like

1:05:30that was my first time experiencing

1:05:32where I had just placed like eighth in

1:05:35California State. I was fifth at the

1:05:37national tournament. I was just just

1:05:39doing everything right. you know, I had

1:05:40won the US Open for my age division and

1:05:43then I go to this and I'm on my own for

1:05:45the first time and I have all this

1:05:46adversity and it's just like I don't

1:05:48know, I just felt like like why is this

1:05:51happening to me? You know, I felt like

1:05:53uh I I had been abandoned at that point

1:05:56and maybe maybe other people would have

1:05:58recovered from it better, but that was a

1:05:59first time experience for me. So, but

1:06:01yeah, I was barely 19 years old around

1:06:03that time. I think I probably started

1:06:04fighting around in the amateurs around

1:06:0620. So, I was I was relatively young,

1:06:09but

1:06:09>> So, that's when you started partying.

1:06:10>> I was as soon as I tore my meniscus, I

1:06:13finished out the wrestling season and

1:06:15then I remember like even school like

1:06:18slouched off. Like I didn't I wasn't

1:06:19really caring about school too much. We

1:06:21had finals. I didn't really even try too

1:06:24hard and then I went I remember that day

1:06:26as soon as the last final was done, we

1:06:28all went to the my buddy's house and

1:06:31that's the first time I ever got drunk

1:06:32like ever. And so, and it's not to say

1:06:35that those things are like the end of

1:06:36the world if if you're controlling them,

1:06:38but I certainly wasn't. You know, I had

1:06:39like a lot of compounding things being

1:06:41first time. And uh that carried over. It

1:06:44was like that all the way up until

1:06:48Yeah. Uh it was after that second loss,

1:06:52I was probably still not doing what I

1:06:55needed to be doing to be a disciplined

1:06:57athlete. Um a respectable just like, you

1:07:01know, good person really. I wasn't I

1:07:03wasn't being a good person. And uh

1:07:05[sighs]

1:07:06yeah, there was there was a lot of

1:07:07change, a lot of growth. You know, I had

1:07:09a lot of people guide me back into that.

1:07:12And as soon as I made those changes,

1:07:14yeah, now now I'm here having been able

1:07:17to live and experience it cuz that's the

1:07:20best teacher out of all of them. You

1:07:21know, you can go and watch a YouTube

1:07:24video on how to do something, right?

1:07:25Like fix a car. Oh, I know exactly where

1:07:27the alternator is. I know where this

1:07:29this pump is. I know how this connects

1:07:30to this. Then the second you open it up,

1:07:33it's like, okay, well, I didn't know I

1:07:35needed this tool. And wow, this is

1:07:37really way harder to pull off. And and

1:07:39it's the experience. It's it's the

1:07:40hardship and experience that teaches you

1:07:42things. So 100%. If I hadn't gone

1:07:44through that, who knows where I'd be and

1:07:47what I'd be doing right now. you when

1:07:49you hurt your knee in uh college, was

1:07:52that the first time you'd ever done

1:07:54where you had an injury where it

1:07:55completely compromised your ability to

1:07:57perform where you realize like, oh, like

1:08:00my body's very vulnerable.

1:08:03Um, so I I had actually sprained my

1:08:06ankle. It was it's called the OC DS.

1:08:08It's like the number one and number two

1:08:10in Orange County face off. and uh I had

1:08:14tore up my ankle pretty good and that

1:08:16was going into league and then CIF and

1:08:19all that stuff and I had almost worried

1:08:21that I wouldn't be able to wrestle which

1:08:23is a big thing. Luckily I was able to

1:08:25wrestle on that but yes I guess the

1:08:28meniscus was probably the first time

1:08:29where it really took me out of my game

1:08:31like that and to me it was more of a I

1:08:35don't know if it was a vulnerability of

1:08:36the body. I like I

1:08:40had come to terms with that. I I

1:08:42understood that. Um

1:08:46I don't know. I maybe I I thought there

1:08:48was a higher power like protecting me

1:08:50and at that moment like I was no longer

1:08:51protected and I had been abandoned and

1:08:53that's kind of what got to me honestly

1:08:55is I thought like God had

1:08:59abandoned me essentially at that time.

1:09:01>> Really? You didn't think like maybe God

1:09:03would did you even consider that it was

1:09:05a challenge that it was something?

1:09:06>> I can look back on it and say with

1:09:08certainty that it is. And that's

1:09:10>> You were young. I was young and that's

1:09:11that's why I said I clouded my mind with

1:09:13a bunch of other things and instead of

1:09:14focus on it and thinking about it

1:09:16clearly I just just moved farther away

1:09:19from the issue. So like at that time

1:09:21that's what I thought. Now being a

1:09:23mature man having grown my relationship

1:09:25with God having read and studied and and

1:09:29understanding that like I said that

1:09:30those hardships are what build us is

1:09:33that that's what tests our faith and

1:09:34what really brings us closer to God. Now

1:09:37I see that it it wasn't as big as I had

1:09:39made it, you know, but I learned and and

1:09:43maybe falling farther down the path

1:09:45taught me even more.

1:09:46>> Yeah, I think it does. I think fall I

1:09:48think failing is actually a very good

1:09:50teacher. I really do. I think in all

1:09:52aspects of your life and uh especially

1:09:55when you're a young person, you have

1:09:56this idea of who you are. Having that

1:09:58get knocked down where you have to

1:10:00rebuild is very important because once

1:10:02you rebuild and you realize like, okay,

1:10:06now I know what I'm capable of. Now I

1:10:08know that there's this is there's going

1:10:10to be ups and downs, but I must maintain

1:10:12the path,

1:10:13>> right?

1:10:14>> Did you have to get your knee fixed? Did

1:10:15you have to do anything to it?

1:10:16>> Yeah, they did a scope on it. So they

1:10:18they shaved uh the part that was hanging

1:10:20away, which to me I wish I had never

1:10:23done.

1:10:23>> Yeah,

1:10:23>> because that knee gave has gives me

1:10:25issues to today. like any of this

1:10:27inversion like a triangle choke with a

1:10:29right leg going over that meniscus. It

1:10:32was my lateral meniscus outside. It

1:10:33rolls over and it catches. So then I got

1:10:35to bring my leg straight and pop it back

1:10:36into place. And uh it's gotten better.

1:10:40You know, I I get through it quicker

1:10:42these days. But

1:10:43>> they tell you to not even get that

1:10:45surgery now. Well, so my my second

1:10:48professional fight where I got ankle

1:10:50locked. I got uh [sighs] I think it was

1:10:54like an outside reap and I went to sit

1:10:56up to to grab it and he had the position

1:10:58locked and my knee just went [snorts]

1:11:00like eight times in my ear real bad and

1:11:02it was in the same exact spot that

1:11:04lateral meniscus that outer which uh I

1:11:07don't know what what other ligament is

1:11:09on the outside there. But uh to me it

1:11:12was like exactly where the the meniscus

1:11:14on the right leg had happened. But I

1:11:16grabbed up or sat up. I grabbed his

1:11:18arms. I kept trying to fight through it

1:11:20and then he switched it over to the to

1:11:22the heel hook on the other side. My

1:11:23ankle popped twice as I rolled and I

1:11:25finally tapped in. But I didn't I didn't

1:11:27even get an MRI on that one. I tried to.

1:11:30It took so long that I was doing the

1:11:32knees over toes and strengthening and I

1:11:34was starting to move on it that by the

1:11:36time they're like, "Okay, we can get

1:11:37your MRI in a week." I'm like, "Dude,

1:11:39I'm already moving and exercising and

1:11:40doing stuff on this." Like I was cool.

1:11:43But yeah, I never did anything with

1:11:44that. And that knee's really never given

1:11:47me any issues. And then the one I got

1:11:49the scope on still bothers me to today.

1:11:52>> Yeah. They don't recommend [snorts] that

1:11:54anymore because they did a study of

1:11:56people that have had meniscus surgery

1:11:58versus not not having meniscus surgery

1:12:00and just rehabilitation. And it shows

1:12:02that rehabilitation seems to be the

1:12:04better path.

1:12:05>> Yeah.

1:12:05>> I mean, especially for like there's I

1:12:07have one that's been scoped and it

1:12:09bothers me all the time. That's the one

1:12:10I got shot up today.

1:12:11>> Okay.

1:12:12>> It always bothers me. It's like there's

1:12:14missing padding on one side of it. It's

1:12:16missing. But I had a bucket handle tear

1:12:18and in jiu-jitsu it would lock and my

1:12:21leg would be stuff like stiff and I

1:12:23could I have to like push it back into

1:12:25place. It was excruciating.

1:12:26>> It was like stuck locked out.

1:12:28>> Yeah. Yeah. It would go back eventually

1:12:31but it would take sometimes it would

1:12:33take a day before and it would swell up,

1:12:35you know. But if I knew, first of all,

1:12:38this is a long time ago. Unfortunately,

1:12:39there was no stem cells available back

1:12:41then. I would have 100% just done stem

1:12:43cells and now I would have done the

1:12:44knees over toes stuff and a lot of

1:12:46cycling like stationary box bike cycling

1:12:50at not high resistance is a fairly low

1:12:53resistance is just repetitive motion.

1:12:55It's really good for getting the blood

1:12:57flow to the knees and really good for

1:12:59strengthening up the tendons and the

1:13:01ligaments and everything but without

1:13:03load. You you know it's just you do it

1:13:05at like a very low resistance and just

1:13:07for a long time and that's really good

1:13:09for your knees.

1:13:10>> Sweet. Yeah. Yeah, I mean there's

1:13:11there's so many things like I think even

1:13:13like leg extensions would probably be

1:13:14like a good little exercise for the

1:13:16knees. I mean

1:13:18>> it's a pretty deliberate spot. I think

1:13:19you know like backpacking

1:13:21>> I think I think like a controlled

1:13:22version of that because there's a lot of

1:13:24times you know you're dropping down like

1:13:25pretty heavily

1:13:26>> this and that which is probably not the

1:13:28best impact on the knee. Yeah.

1:13:30>> But if you were doing it like because

1:13:32that's kind of the knees over toes is

1:13:33he's doing some similar motions. If you

1:13:35had some maybe not as much weight,

1:13:38>> some weight on your back, you could

1:13:39slowly kind of find that and then have a

1:13:41soft landing like right

1:13:42>> I don't know. I was backpacking recently

1:13:44and I was just thinking about this. I'm

1:13:45like like in a controlled setting like

1:13:46in a gym like on a machine that I'm like

1:13:48maybe not as much as like a steep

1:13:50incline or a decline like something like

1:13:52that would be really good. And then the

1:13:53range of motion stuff is I I've had, you

1:13:56know, with with my injury and stuff and

1:13:59time to step away, I've had like a lot

1:14:00of opportunity to think and I I feel

1:14:03like I've I've grown tremendously. And

1:14:05it's like, yeah, all the little tiny

1:14:06things like the knees, like they're

1:14:08fine. Like I I do it. I really don't

1:14:11have an issue too much. Like maybe if I

1:14:13get into that position, it'll do it. But

1:14:15it's like, you know, what happens when I

1:14:17do get into like a position, let's say a

1:14:19leg lock position for example, or like a

1:14:22a straight knee bar, and you know what?

1:14:24If my my flexibility is an issue there,

1:14:26or just simply like a wizard position

1:14:28where the knees getting popped up, like

1:14:30just any there's there's a million in

1:14:31one positions that the knees could be

1:14:33compromised there. And so, yeah, it's

1:14:35going back doing a lot of range of

1:14:36motion stuff, a lot of strengthening on

1:14:38the knees. Um,

1:14:39>> do you do uh Polloquin step downs? Do

1:14:42you know those?

1:14:43>> No. Uh Charles Polloquin seem to find

1:14:46pollin simple. You're essentially doing

1:14:49it either you're doing it from um an

1:14:51incline board with like a little bit of

1:14:53elevation or you're just doing it from a

1:14:55straight up step. And what you're doing

1:14:57is you're just lowering yourself down.

1:15:00So one foot is above on the step and the

1:15:02other foot you're lowering like that.

1:15:04Like there. There you go. He's doing it

1:15:05on plates. Very simple. Very simple,

1:15:09right? I mean, you're literally only

1:15:10going like 10 inches,

1:15:12>> but you're going up and down like that,

1:15:14and it's just controlling the body

1:15:16weight like that. Phenomenal for knee

1:15:18strengthening and for knee stability.

1:15:20It's excellent. It's one of the best

1:15:22exercises.

1:15:23>> Sweet.

1:15:24>> You doing uh backwards pulls with like

1:15:26either a sled or on a treadmill. Do you

1:15:29walk backwards doing that? I I'm not

1:15:31doing like really any exercises uh

1:15:35weight and like I mean I do little

1:15:37things but for strength and conditioning

1:15:40after boxing but I stay away from the

1:15:41weights

1:15:42>> but it's not even for the weights. I'm

1:15:43talking you do it on a treadmill.

1:15:45>> Okay,

1:15:46>> you do on a treadmill just basically

1:15:47keep the treadmill off and just with

1:15:49your own resistance you step backwards.

1:15:51Okay.

1:15:52>> So, you put your back to the screen and

1:15:54hold on to the bars and you're basically

1:15:56just pushing with your legs going

1:15:58backwards and it's really good for

1:16:00strengthening your knees and also for

1:16:01blood flow. That's a knees over toes guy

1:16:03thing.

1:16:03>> Okay. All right.

1:16:04>> His his page is phenomenal. That guy

1:16:06>> I'll go to the Yeah. the 24-hour fitness

1:16:08and burn out their treadmill.

1:16:09>> Yeah. Yeah. You can do that or you could

1:16:10use a sled. You know, we do it with a

1:16:12sled here.

1:16:13>> You know, you put the sled you put like

1:16:14a waist strap and you just back up and

1:16:17pull the sled. It doesn't have to be a

1:16:18lot of weight. It's not It's not a

1:16:19weight thing. Right. It's really just a

1:16:21circulation thing and a strengthening

1:16:23thing.

1:16:23>> He has another one that

1:16:25uh you get the band around your back and

1:16:29then you're kind of

1:16:31I forgot how he did it. You're you're

1:16:33essentially like uh leaned over and then

1:16:35straightening the leg. It's got it's

1:16:36you're like in a lunge, I guess.

1:16:38Actually,

1:16:38>> you're in a lunge. The knee goes over

1:16:40the toes. You have the resistance on the

1:16:42back and then you're pushing and

1:16:44essentially doing the same thing as

1:16:45probably walking back with this leg.

1:16:47>> The band is attached in the front or in

1:16:49behind

1:16:49>> attached in the front. So resistance is

1:16:51pulling you forward. Okay.

1:16:52>> And you're you're lunged over the knee

1:16:54the knee over the toe

1:16:56>> and then you're you're extending that

1:16:58that leg and it's just hitting that knee

1:17:00perfectly.

1:17:01>> It's it's very similar to the one you're

1:17:02talking about, I'm sure.

1:17:03>> Yeah. because so much time you spend

1:17:05pushing forward and not a lot of people

1:17:07spend much time pushing backwards, but

1:17:09pushing backwards is really important.

1:17:11It's really important to just overall

1:17:14knee strength,

1:17:14>> right? I think I think the side to side

1:17:17stuff too is like I was almost like let

1:17:19me get in the sand and I do a lot of

1:17:21like working out in the sand just for

1:17:22the boxing for the for the footwork and

1:17:25being able to stay in a stance. But like

1:17:27that little like side explosion stuff

1:17:28would probably start strengthening those

1:17:30those muscles on the side and the

1:17:32ligaments going that way.

1:17:33>> And then I'm trying to think like, you

1:17:36know, how do you get that that motion? I

1:17:38mean, you could get a band and probably

1:17:40like do kind of like a lateral extension

1:17:42or pull it up into your like an inward

1:17:45extension.

1:17:46>> You know who used to do a lot of weird

1:17:47[ __ ] with bands? BJ Penn.

1:17:49>> Oh yeah. He did a lot of weird [ __ ] in

1:17:51his prime with like flexibility stuff

1:17:53and developing strength from weird

1:17:55positions with bands.

1:17:57>> Yeah. I see. Uh

1:18:00I don't know if BJ was was a part of

1:18:02that program, but like the Raphael dos

1:18:04all the the fascia kind of stuff.

1:18:06>> Yeah.

1:18:07>> Yeah. Well, Rafael Dos Anjos was

1:18:09training with Nick Kers. Nick Kersan was

1:18:11a student of Marv Marinovich.

1:18:14>> Okay.

1:18:14>> And Marv Marino is the guy who trained

1:18:16BJ when he was like in his prime. Okay.

1:18:18when he when he really got super serious

1:18:20about cardio, but it's a very

1:18:22controversial approach. The Marinovich's

1:18:24approach was, you already know how to

1:18:26fight, so forget about fight training.

1:18:29We're just going to give you the most

1:18:30[ __ ] insane gas tank you've ever had,

1:18:32and that way you'll be able to execute

1:18:33everything you want. And so, the primary

1:18:35focus was just plyometrics

1:18:38>> and their conditioning program. And it

1:18:40was hell,

1:18:41>> right?

1:18:41>> And BJ did not like going through it,

1:18:43but when he went through it, he was like

1:18:44unstoppable cuz he just never gassed,

1:18:47>> right? And it's that's the interesting

1:18:49thing about conditioning in general is

1:18:52we have these ideas of what the

1:18:55threshold is like what a human body's

1:18:57capable of doing for five minutes for

1:18:59three rounds or five rounds like in

1:19:01terms of what kind of pace that you

1:19:02could put up. And then you have certain

1:19:04guys that come along that sort of

1:19:06redefine what the threshold is like

1:19:08Morab. Rob comes along and here you got

1:19:11some guy whose gas tank is [ __ ]

1:19:13superhuman and he makes the best

1:19:15fighters in the world just wilt under

1:19:18the this constant pressure being taken

1:19:20down and his strength and his his his

1:19:23skill as a wrestler. It's just this

1:19:26constant attack, constant constant

1:19:28constant constant. And you wonder like,

1:19:30okay, what how long did it take to build

1:19:32up that reserve? How long did it take to

1:19:34build up that gas tank? That's not

1:19:36something you can achieve in just one

1:19:37camp, right? Like that's that's

1:19:39something that takes literally years to

1:19:41develop.

1:19:42>> Oh, for sure. That's why I mean, like I

1:19:44said, going back to wrestling, my my

1:19:47what what I would say my superpower, my

1:19:50most utilized skill set was my my

1:19:53cardio, my gas tank, you know. Um, and I

1:19:55don't know, I what is it? Anabolic

1:19:57versus anorobic, like the striking

1:19:59versus the grappling cardio.

1:20:01>> Mhm.

1:20:03I think there's something to be said

1:20:04about that wrestling cardio, like just

1:20:08that like strict, you're just grinded

1:20:10out 24/7, you know, you're always

1:20:12colliding, your muscles are always

1:20:13tensed up. I think there's something to

1:20:15be said about that that if you had great

1:20:17wrestling cardio, you could do almost

1:20:19anything in the world.

1:20:19>> Yeah. It builds up a a foundation that's

1:20:22kind of unstoppable,

1:20:23>> right?

1:20:24>> If you can maintain that kind of work

1:20:26ethic cuz it's it's a it's an insane.

1:20:28That's the other thing about it is the

1:20:30mental toughness that comes from

1:20:31wrestling, right?

1:20:32>> There's some like when a guy has like an

1:20:34elite wrestling background and he enters

1:20:35into the UFC, I always say they have an

1:20:38advantage. They have an advantage over

1:20:39everybody else because

1:20:41>> whether or not you choose to put

1:20:43yourself or you get coached by someone

1:20:44who puts you through hell in camp. With

1:20:46wrestling, you don't have a choice. Like

1:20:48everyone's going through hell, right?

1:20:49>> There's no one get there's no easy path

1:20:52to get on a [ __ ] wrestling team

1:20:53anywhere in the country,

1:20:54>> right?

1:20:56>> You have to wrestle for your your

1:20:57position. It's literally

1:20:59>> you got to battle for that that spot,

1:21:01you know, and then the practice is once

1:21:03or twice a day of just purely grinding

1:21:05it out. Staying in a wrestling stance

1:21:07alone is extremely tough to do. Now

1:21:09you're doing it at elevated pace. Now

1:21:12you're doing it with someone snapping on

1:21:13your head. Now you're just like, and

1:21:14then you go and you you do live

1:21:15wrestling and then finish it up with

1:21:17sprints. Yeah. To me to me there's

1:21:19nothing that beats that. Like and and I

1:21:22think

1:21:23the the style of it is like go go go.

1:21:26Like even jiu-jitsu, you're finding

1:21:27places to rest. You know, you can throw

1:21:29on in the guard and and you can you can

1:21:32rest in certain entanglements. Striking

1:21:34is all about being able to have an

1:21:37explosive motion and then find your way

1:21:39to to be defensive to slow down what

1:21:41they're doing. You're either you're

1:21:42getting in stuffing it, you're at a

1:21:44distance where you can be a little bit

1:21:46relaxed because they can't reach you or,

1:21:48you know, you're you're moving off

1:21:49making them miss where there's no

1:21:51resistance there. You know, I just with

1:21:54wrestling, you don't have any of that.

1:21:55there's there's no chance for a break,

1:21:57especially if you got someone like Morab

1:21:58who's just on you 247. And so to me,

1:22:02that's, you know, back to the cardio

1:22:03thing we talked about earlier. I don't

1:22:05know. I I think if you got Yeah. elite

1:22:08wrestling cardio, then you could do all

1:22:10the rest of it. You'd be able to strike,

1:22:11you'd be able to do the jiu-jitsu and

1:22:13take homes, like you can hang for that

1:22:16duration of time with great cardio.

1:22:18>> It's also if you could figure out how to

1:22:20be a great wrestler, you can kind of

1:22:21figure out anything. It's just a matter

1:22:24of taking that same focus that turned

1:22:25you into a great wrestler and applying

1:22:27it to whatever it is, MMA, whatever,

1:22:29whatever else you're trying to do. If

1:22:32you're willing to go through what it

1:22:33took to become a great wrestler, that's

1:22:34an extraordinary human. That's very few

1:22:37people ever reach a very high level of

1:22:39wrestling. It's just too [ __ ] hard.

1:22:41>> Yeah.

1:22:42>> And it's the best foundation for combat

1:22:44sports, for sure, for MMA. Because if

1:22:47you could take a guy down and he can't

1:22:48take you down, that's a massive

1:22:50advantage, right?

1:22:51>> Massive. You dictate where the fight

1:22:52takes place. And if you develop elite

1:22:54striking on top of that, it's a perfect

1:22:57combination.

1:22:57>> Oh, for sure. I mean, anybody asking me

1:23:00personally, I would say get a wrestling

1:23:03background, get some boxing, you can

1:23:06figure out the rest of it. You can

1:23:07figure out how to check kicks, block

1:23:08kicks,

1:23:09>> you can you can do the rest of it. But

1:23:10if you have those two fundamental core

1:23:12bases, yeah, you're you're pretty good

1:23:14against most people.

1:23:15>> I would say that, too. But I would say

1:23:16another thing is, and this is very

1:23:18controversial, if I was to teaching a

1:23:21young kid, I would say get into point

1:23:23karate. Learn point karate because if

1:23:27you could learn how to move the way

1:23:28those guys move, the things that those

1:23:30guy when you see like Michael Venom

1:23:32Paige just stump people, they're just

1:23:34stumped. Like I don't have any like

1:23:37Kevin Holland who is fights everybody.

1:23:39He's [ __ ] competitive with everybody

1:23:41he fights.

1:23:42>> With MVP, he was just stumped. like what

1:23:44am I g what the [ __ ] am I doing? I can't

1:23:46even touch this guy.

1:23:47>> Right?

1:23:47>> That is a giant skill set. And I always

1:23:50said before MVP came onto the scene, I'm

1:23:52like one of these guys, one of these

1:23:54really elite point fighter guys is going

1:23:57to come in and start [ __ ] everybody

1:23:58out because you can't hit them.

1:23:59>> Yeah. Yeah. And that goes back like him

1:24:02and like Wonderboy are both the prime

1:24:04examples of a karate style individual.

1:24:07>> Yes. Um, and they're really long, so,

1:24:10you know, they can utilize that a little

1:24:11bit to their advantage with that that

1:24:13lungey in and out.

1:24:14>> But to be honest, yeah, that's something

1:24:16that like I've wanted to delve into a

1:24:18little bit more with myself cuz I like I

1:24:20can throw kicks really well. Honestly, I

1:24:23have I have good flexibility. I have the

1:24:25ability to throw them with with speed,

1:24:27with power. Um, but having something

1:24:30like that where you can throw it nice

1:24:32and fast and snappy, those little

1:24:33sidekicks and the way that they throw

1:24:35the kicks is great cuz

1:24:37>> I mean the only other relation I would

1:24:38have to that is the the Savat style. I

1:24:41like the way the Savat style guys throw

1:24:42their kicks.

1:24:43>> I'm not very familiar with Savat.

1:24:45>> The only thing that I I don't utilize

1:24:47myself is a lot of the toe stuff because

1:24:49I'm not wearing shoes to kick to the

1:24:52body.

1:24:53>> They're they're like stabbing you with

1:24:54their toes. Everything like they'll even

1:24:56they're even kicking like your leg. Yoza

1:24:58does that.

1:24:58>> Yeah.

1:24:59>> He stabs guys in the body with his toes.

1:25:01>> It's like the ball of his foot, right?

1:25:02But like

1:25:02>> Well, he's going in with the toes, man.

1:25:04There's a lot of like slow-mo videos of

1:25:07him stabbing guys in the liver with his

1:25:09[ __ ] toes.

1:25:10>> You know who else is

1:25:11>> conditioning their toes.

1:25:12>> Yeah. Well, that's the thing is you

1:25:14better have some You'll probably have

1:25:16many multiple breaks on each toe leading

1:25:18up to that. Yeah. Yeah, cuz it's just

1:25:20that's why we were talking about the

1:25:21front kick to the body is good if you do

1:25:24it like a traditional Muay Thai where

1:25:25you're going up and and out which is

1:25:27fantastic. You can produce a lot of

1:25:29speed and power but I think everybody

1:25:31does this this kind of shovel up toes

1:25:34into the body kick nowadays in the MMA

1:25:36world. That's what I see more so. I mean

1:25:38Connor Connor utilized the heck out of

1:25:40that. Uh most guys bring the toes up.

1:25:44It's And you better be very precise with

1:25:47that cuz all it takes is one elbow

1:25:48blocking down and your toes in half out.

1:25:50Yeah.

1:25:51>> Did you see um Rodriguez's toes after he

1:25:55fought Fluffy?

1:25:55>> Yeah.

1:25:56>> Do you see that picture, Jamie? Pull

1:25:57that picture up. It's off Gregory

1:25:59Rodriguez his uh Instagram page

1:26:02>> after he beat Fluffy. Uh he showed a

1:26:04photo of his You haven't seen it?

1:26:06>> I haven't seen it, actually.

1:26:06>> Oh, you're going to cringe. It's hell.

1:26:09>> Is it like like a Jon Jones break where

1:26:11the

1:26:11>> worse bones are sticking out? The bones

1:26:13aren't sticking out, but it's it's

1:26:15hilacious. You look at what happened to

1:26:17his toes,

1:26:17>> dude. And that one like that takes it

1:26:19out of you. You start smashing your toes

1:26:20like that and you got to continue

1:26:21fighting.

1:26:22>> Oh, yeah.

1:26:22>> Or you got to continue into a fight camp

1:26:24with like broken toes.

1:26:26>> Yeah.

1:26:26>> Yeah. That's what one of my wrestling

1:26:28camps, I was chasing my brother in the

1:26:29front yard the day before and his heel

1:26:31came back and my pinky toe was like

1:26:32this, straight sideways. Went to the

1:26:35family doctor.

1:26:37Oh yeah. I have a picture just like that

1:26:39actually with my fingers, my toes

1:26:41throwing westside.

1:26:42Oh, look at that. Jesus.

1:26:45Ow.