Joe Rogan Experience #2392 - John Kiriakou

0:01Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

0:04>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

0:06>> Train by day. Joe Rogan podcast by

0:08night. All day.

0:12>> So, you were saying you replace Mike

0:14Baker?

0:14>> Yeah, Mike's a great guy. He was a good

0:16officer. He was uh he doesn't really

0:21talk about his work a lot. Maybe it's

0:23cuz a lot of years have passed, but he

0:25was the real deal. I replaced him in

0:27Athens and he had done a lot of

0:29preliminary leg work in Athens. Athens

0:32was a tough place at the time. Uh the

0:35American government spent more money on

0:37security in Athens than they spent

0:40anywhere else in the world, including

0:41Beirut.

0:42>> Why? There it was a combination of two

0:45things. There were two indigenous Greek

0:47groups that were exceedingly dangerous.

0:49One was called Revolutionary

0:50Organization 17 November. They had

0:53killed the CIA station chief, two US

0:55defense attaches,

0:57just bad guys all around. The other was

0:59called um popular revolutionary

1:02struggle. And then on top of that, you

1:04had Abu Nidal, the Libyans, the PFLP,

1:08the PFLPGC, the DFLP,

1:12everybody was there because there was

1:14this informal agreement between the

1:17Greek government of uh Andreas Papandreo

1:20at the time and these terrorist groups

1:22that if you don't kill Greeks,

1:26we'll leave you alone.

1:28>> Oh boy.

1:28>> Yeah. But killing Americans wasn't part

1:31of the deal. So, it was every man for

1:33himself.

1:34>> Wow. Your story is pretty nuts, man.

1:37>> It's

1:38>> And your story of getting in trouble and

1:41eventually going to prison for something

1:44that was com what they were doing, what

1:48you reported on was completely illegal

1:50>> and you were completely honest about it.

1:53Um, and it was essentially about the US

1:55torture program,

1:56>> right?

1:57>> Tell us how this all started. like how

2:00long had you been involved in the CIA?

2:03>> Oh, by then I had been in the CIA

2:07well by the time I got to Pakistan as

2:10the head of uh counterterrorism

2:12operations after 9/11. I'd been in the

2:14CIA almost 13 years and um and I was

2:18responsible for all counterterrorism

2:21operations in the country.

2:23al-Qaeda was was running out of

2:26Afghanistan into Pakistan because we

2:28were bombing the daylights out of them.

2:31And so my job was to find them and grab

2:35them and then just hold them or send

2:38them to trial was the original idea. And

2:41um we we were planning at the time for

2:43our first big name capture, right? Bin

2:47Laden, Iman Zawahi. We had killed uh

2:50Muhammad um at he was the head of what

2:53they called military affairs for

2:54al-Qaeda. We killed him at Tora Bora.

2:56But then there was Abu Zubeda and then

2:58there was this unknown person that we

3:00later learned was Khalik Muhammad. So we

3:03were looking for any of these four or

3:06five people and then there were there

3:08were others those responsible for the

3:09embassy bombings in Africa. Uh the USS

3:13Cole bombing.

3:15So, it just so happened that in February

3:17of 2002, we got a lead on Abu Zuba and

3:22um and we captured him. It took us six

3:25weeks to track him down and we were

3:27close a couple of times. Close where we

3:29would bust down the door and there's

3:31like an uneaten like halfeaten sandwich

3:33on the counter, a cigarette still

3:36burning. Sometimes we were a day or two

3:38behind him, but he knew we were looking

3:39and he knew we were close. So, we

3:42finally got him. And then the question

3:44is, "What do you want to do with him?"

3:47And they uh they told me, "Uh, hang on

3:49to him. We're going to send out a plane

3:51and uh we'll take it from there." So,

3:54they did. And I wasn't cleared to know

3:58what they were going to do with him,

3:59just like the guys on the plane weren't

4:01cleared to know who it was we had

4:03captured and and who why they were

4:06taking this guy, where they were taking

4:07him. But, um,

4:09>> that is that all just need to know?

4:11>> Yeah, it's all need to know. In fact,

4:13when I got onto the plane, we three FBI

4:15agents and I picked him up on this

4:17gurnie and carried him onto the plane.

4:18We had to stand him up and maneuver him

4:20onto the plane. Then we laid him across

4:22the luggage rack at the back and tied

4:24him down. And um one of the guys on the

4:28plane, he was dressed completely in

4:29black with a black hood on. And he says,

4:32"John." And I said, "Who are you?" And

4:33he lifts up his mask and he's an old

4:36boss of mine. And I said, "Hey, what are

4:39you doing here?" He said, "Oh, I came to

4:40uh take you prisoner." I said, "Uh,

4:42where are you taking him?" And he said,

4:44'I can't tell you. You don't have a need

4:45to know.' And I said, 'No, that's cool.

4:47He said, 'Who is he anyway? I said, 'Oh,

4:49dude, I'm sorry. You don't have a need

4:51to know. He says, 'Yeah, fair enough.

4:52Fair enough. Okay, safe travels.

4:55>> And then, you know, your job is to take

4:57him from point A to point B, not to

4:58become his friend and, you know, get his

5:00family story, just like my job is to

5:02catch him and hand him over to the next

5:04guy, and it's none of my business where

5:05he's going.

5:07And so when I got back to headquarters

5:09in May of that year, I was just standing

5:12in the sandwich line at the CIA

5:14cafeteria and one of the senior guys

5:16from the counterterrorism center came up

5:17to me very casually and he said, "Oh,

5:21hey. I'm glad I ran into you. I meant to

5:23ask you, do you want to be certified in

5:25the use of enhanced interrogation

5:27techniques?" And I had never heard that

5:29term before. This was May of 2002. I

5:32said, "Enhanced interrogation

5:34techniques? What's that mean?" And he

5:36goes, "We're going to start getting

5:38rough with these guys like that." And I

5:40said, "What's that mean?" So he

5:43describes these 10 techniques. And I

5:46said, 'I don't know, man. That sounds

5:47like a torture program. And he said,

5:50"It's not a torture program. We got it

5:52cleared by the Justice Department and

5:53the president signed it." He says,

5:55"Think about it." I said, "Yeah, give me

5:57an hour. I need an hour to think about

5:59it." I walked out of the cafeteria. I

6:01went up to the seventh floor which is

6:03the executive floor and um there was a

6:07very very senior officer up there for

6:09whom I had worked 10 years earlier in

6:11the Middle East. Knocked on his door, no

6:13appointment or anything. And I said,

6:15"Hey, I need some advice. I was just

6:17asked if I wanted to be trained in these

6:20enhanced interrogation techniques. What

6:22do you think of that?" And he said,

6:25"First of all, let's call a spade a

6:27spade." He said, "This is a torture

6:28program. They can use whatever euphemism

6:31they want, but this is a torture program

6:33and torture is a slippery slope. He

6:35said, "You know how these guys are.

6:37Somebody's going to be a cowboy. They're

6:38going to go overboard and they're going

6:40to kill a prisoner. And when that

6:42happens, there's going to be a

6:43congressional investigation. Then

6:44there's going to be a Justice Department

6:46investigation and somebody's going to go

6:48to prison. Do you want to go to prison?"

6:50I said, "No, I don't want to go to

6:51prison." As it turned out, I was the

6:53only person who went to prison, but I

6:54said, "No, I don't want to go to

6:56prison." I went back downstairs. I said,

6:58"Listen, I have a a moral and ethical

7:00problem with this. I think it's illegal,

7:02and I don't want any part of it." The

7:04funny thing is, I had just captured Abu

7:07Zuba, who we believed was the number

7:09three in al-Qaeda, and I got passed over

7:11for promotion. And the reason I got

7:13passed over, they said, was because I

7:15turned down the training. The head of

7:17the counterterrorism center said in my

7:20promotion panel that I had displayed a

7:22shocking lack of commitment to

7:24counterterrorism.

7:25And then the guy who had given me the

7:27advice

7:29saw that my name wasn't on the promotion

7:31list and he promoted me out of cycle. So

7:35I I realized then I was up against

7:37something that was going to be tough.

7:38And then there was a psychiatrist at the

7:40agency whom I had known for years. We we

7:44earned the same men's group. We went to

7:46the same church. And he happens to be

7:48both a brigadier general in the army and

7:50a CIA psychiatrist. And he said to me

7:53one day,

7:55"Buddy, you know they call you the human

7:57rights guy behind your back." And I

7:59said, 'Yeah, I don't care. And he said,

8:02'You know that's not a compliment,

8:04right? And I said, Steve, they're wrong

8:07about this and I'm right about it. I

8:11said, I'm I'm comfortable with the

8:12decision that I made. And I just left it

8:15at that. I didn't realize though how

8:17much I had pissed them off until later

8:21on. So all you had done essentially was

8:24stand up for your beliefs, your morals,

8:27your ethics in the law and you said, "I

8:30don't want to participate in anything

8:32that I know to be illegal."

8:33>> That was the start. Listen, I was

8:36>> But you're standing out against the

8:37group.

8:38>> And I was the only one I'm I'm I'm

8:39almost ashamed to tell you that they

8:41asked 14 of us if they wanted if we

8:44wanted to be trained in the enhanced

8:45interrogation techniques. I was the only

8:48one who said no. Now, this doesn't

8:51necessarily mean that you would have to

8:53use them. You were just going to be

8:55trained in them.

8:56>> Oh, no. They were they were to use

8:57>> and then but you would be required to

8:59use these techniques.

9:01>> So, if you were not trained in them,

9:03then what would happen? Would would that

9:06preclude you from ever being involved in

9:08any sort of a questioning interrogation?

9:12>> Yes. Which is funny for a couple of

9:14reasons. Number one, there was no such

9:17thing at the time as an interrogation

9:20class, right? The FBI has deep years

9:25long interrogation classes. We never had

9:29to interrogate anybody. And in fact,

9:31when we started capturing prisoners in

9:33in uh Pakistan in January of 2002,

9:37I'm like, "Well, what do you want me to

9:39ask him?" I I cabled headquarters. We

9:41caught this guy. What do you want me to

9:42ask him? Oh, you you'll figure it out.

9:44just go with it. I'm like, "Okay." So, I

9:47I was working with the Pakistani

9:49intelligence service and I said,

9:50"Listen, I'm I'm usually the good cop.

9:52Do you want to be the bad cop?" And he's

9:53like, "Yeah, I'll be the bad cop." So,

9:55we bring the prisoner out. We're sitting

9:56there looking at him. I said, "What's

9:58your name?" He's like, "Screw you." The

10:00Pakistani whacks him across the face.

10:02So, I say again, "What's your name?"

10:03Listen, buddy. Just give me your name.

10:06My friend here, he's not in a very good

10:08mood. He's not a very nice guy. Just

10:10tell me what your name is. Come on. And

10:12then they tell you their name

10:14>> standard.

10:15>> Yeah.

10:17>> So

10:18what exactly did you know what enhanced

10:22interrogation techniques they were going

10:23to implement?

10:24>> Oh yeah. That day in the cafeteria uh my

10:28colleague explained it in great detail.

10:30And a lot of these techniques are not

10:32torture. Right. If I grab you by the

10:34lapels and say dog on you and answer my

10:37questions, that's not torture. or the

10:40the first one was called the belly slap

10:43uh or the intention slap was another way

10:46they called it where I smack you in the

10:47belly makes a cracking sound maybe it

10:49leaves a handprint it's a little bit

10:51embarrassing that's not torture but then

10:54it graduated quickly to things like

10:57water boarding which everybody knows

10:59about but there were techniques that

11:01were that were in my view that were

11:03worse than water boarding like for

11:04example there was the cold cell so they

11:07strip you naked they chain you to an

11:09eyebolt in the ceiling. So, you can't

11:11you can't lay or kneel or sit or

11:14anything. You can't get comfortable in

11:15any way. And um they they chill the cell

11:19to 50° Fahrenheit and then every hour

11:23somebody comes in and throws a bucket of

11:24ice water on you.

11:26>> Oh,

11:26>> but we killed people with that

11:28technique. The Justice Department never

11:30said we could kill people. And when we

11:33would kill

11:34>> people died with that

11:35>> at least two with that technique that

11:37that hypothermia admitted to from

11:39hypothermia

11:40>> and there wasn't a protocol in place to

11:42stop them from dying.

11:43>> No, there was later but in those early

11:46days no later we always had a doctor on

11:49scene. Like for example with Abu Zuba

11:51his heart actually stopped during a

11:53waterboarding session and the doctor

11:55revived him just so he could be tortured

11:57more. It's like yeah didn't the Germans

12:00do that? Come on now. Now we're doing

12:02it. That's not cool.

12:04>> Is there any other way that like I know

12:06that MK Ultra experimented with a lot of

12:09drugs and a lot of different techniques

12:11involved in whether it was trying to

12:14find the truth out of people or getting

12:15people to commit acts.

12:17>> Was did they ever implement something

12:19where they would give someone something?

12:21>> That's a good question. The short answer

12:23is yes. not in the very beginning, but

12:27they were working with things like truth

12:29serum and and different drugs like

12:32relaxation drugs, uh, gabapentin, you

12:35know, stuff like that to sort of get get

12:37you to open up. But remember too that

12:41the agency got in such trouble in 75 and

12:4476 before the the church committee and

12:47the pike committee about MK Ultra that

12:50as soon as Senator Church said don't

12:53destroy the documents, the director went

12:56right back to headquarters and ordered

12:58them to destroy everything. And so only

13:01about 20% of the MK Ultra documents

13:03still exist. So, we don't really know

13:06exactly

13:08exactly what it was that was learned in

13:11that program, like what worked and what

13:13didn't work. We hear these stories

13:15about, you know, dosing the the fog

13:18laden um air of San Francisco just to

13:21see if everybody gets sick. We've all

13:24read the stories about this bakery in

13:25France where apparently we dosed the

13:27bread and everybody in the village went

13:29nuts. Uh but we don't really have

13:32wholesome documentation that we could

13:35have used operationally while

13:38interrogating prisoners.

13:40>> So just to avoid prosecution, they

13:42figured out a way.

13:43>> Yeah.

13:44>> That's crazy. And so then whatever they

13:46did learn is lost.

13:48>> Yeah. It's lost

13:49>> if there was something whether it's MDMA

13:51or right LSD or whatever they give

13:54people.

13:54>> They worked with L with LSD for 20

13:57years. at least at least 20 years. You

14:00know, they there was an operation, it

14:02was a sub operation of MK Ultra

14:04>> where um they rented a safe house in San

14:07Francisco. They recruited a bunch of

14:10hookers and had them go out and pick up

14:13John's, bring them back to the to the

14:16safe house where they thought they were

14:18going to get laid, dose them with LSD,

14:21and then interrogate them and try to get

14:23them to give up their deepest secrets.

14:26It's like midnight climax.

14:27>> Yeah. Midnight climax. Exactly. It's

14:29like what? Nobody's agreed to do this.

14:32You You haven't informed them properly.

14:35These are American citizens. You can't

14:36just take people off the streets and and

14:39force LSD down their throat.

14:41>> They were running the Hate Ashbury Free

14:42Clinic. Yeah. Until right after a month

14:45after Chaos by Tom O'Neal came out.

14:47Yeah,

14:47>> you're exactly right.

14:48>> Yeah. Yeah. My mom my uh wife's mom went

14:53there. She used to, she was a hippie in

14:56San Francisco. She went to the hate

14:58ashberry free clinic.

14:59>> It was run by the CIA, which is so

15:02crazy. And it's totally connected to

15:04Manson. And the man

15:05>> Oh, yeah. Mans. Exactly. Exactly. Manson

15:07was a part of it as well.

15:09>> It's so nuts. And they wouldn't have

15:11even known about that until they found a

15:13stash of documents that connected it all

15:15together.

15:16>> And just think of what's been destroyed,

15:18>> right?

15:18>> What we could have learned.

15:19>> Exactly. We only know a small fraction

15:22of what was done. So, is it a case of

15:24just they're they're not elected,

15:27they're put into power, presidents come

15:29and go, and over the course of their

15:31career, 20 years plus, they just have so

15:35much power and so much ability to get

15:37things done that they just bypass the

15:39law.

15:39>> Yeah. I I think that is that's the whole

15:42story right there in a nutshell. When I

15:44was there, I remember being shocked by

15:46some of the old-timers who had been

15:49there for as long as 40 or 42 years.

15:51There was one in particular. He was the

15:53national intelligence officer for

15:54warning. So he was the one that was

15:56supposed to say, you know, I'm worried

15:58about what Libya is going to look like

16:0010 years from now and then somebody

16:02writes a paper about it. He had been

16:03there for 42 years. He had to get a a

16:07waiver from the director because he had

16:09aged out. Well, these guys, make no

16:12secret of of their belief that they can

16:15outweight pretty much any president.

16:17Presidents come and go, and these guys

16:20are there forever. And so if the

16:22president wants him to do something that

16:23they don't want to do, they just slow

16:25roll it. Just wait until he leaves and

16:29that's the end of it. You know, that's

16:31why I say I I've said this in interviews

16:33a lot. There is a deep state. You don't

16:36have to call it the deep state if you

16:38don't want to. You can call it the

16:39state. You can call it the federal

16:41bureaucracy. You can call it whatever

16:42you want. The fact is it exists and it's

16:46unelected and it's generally

16:48unaccountable to anybody. and they just

16:51wait for the president to leave if they

16:52don't want to do what he wants.

16:56>> So, you find out about this torture

16:59program, you won't participate. So, that

17:02puts you on the outs. And when do you

17:05know that this is going to be like a

17:06significant problem in your career?

17:10>> You know, honestly, I didn't know until

17:13well after I left the agency. you know,

17:16once I I turned this down

17:19um and I got this outofcycle promotion

17:22for the Abu Zuba operation, I was I was

17:24named executive assistant to the CIA's

17:27deputy director for operations. And in

17:29that position, you have access to

17:31literally everything that the CIA is

17:34doing around the world. And so I'm

17:37reading these cables coming back from

17:39the secret site and people are saying

17:42like, "Whoa, I didn't sign up for this.

17:45Nobody said we're going to torture

17:46people. I quit. And then they come home.

17:50Or there was a secretary who fainted

17:52once when she happened to be in the room

17:54while Abu Zubeda was being tortured and

17:57she curtailed her her assignment. That

18:00means she sends a cable to headquarters

18:02saying, "I'm coming home. I'm not doing

18:04this anymore." That is a careerending

18:06decision to curtail an assignment. And I

18:09remember thinking, so I'm not the only

18:12one who thinks this is this is illegal.

18:16Certainly somebody's going to come out

18:18and say something. And nobody did. This

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19:28orange county California. Like what are

19:30the techniques that they were using that

19:31were like causing her to faint?

19:34The big ones were waterboarding, the

19:36cold cell, and sleep deprivation. Sleep

19:39deprivation doesn't sound like any big

19:41deal. And when that finally leaked, Don

19:43Rumsfeld, who was the Secretary of

19:44Defense at the time, made a statement

19:47that that still kind of sticks in my

19:49mind. He said, "There is no such thing

19:53as sleep deprivation." He said, "I have

19:56a standup desk in my office. I don't

19:58even have a chair in my office and

20:00sometimes I'll work 24 hours and then

20:02into the next day 36 hours. But that's

20:05not what we're talking about here. We

20:07know from the American Psychological

20:09Association that people begin to lose

20:12their minds at day seven with no sleep

20:15and they begin to die, their organs

20:18begin to shut down at day 9. But the CIA

20:21was authorized to keep people awake for

20:2312 days. And that was another thing that

20:26caused prisoners to just die. They would

20:29have heart failure, you know, or

20:31>> how do they keep them awake?

20:33>> You chain them to that eyebolt in the

20:34ceiling again. You have these industrial

20:38strength lights on them 24 hours a day

20:40and like death metal 24 hours on volume

20:4411. And um and they just can't sleep

20:48because if they if they collapse,

20:51they'll pull their arms out of their

20:52sockets. They're chained to that to that

20:55eyebolt.

20:56>> Jeez,

20:57>> it was bad. And then when people would

20:59die, they would just dig a hole next to

21:02the interrogation building, put him in

21:05the hole, cover it up, and then bring

21:06the next guy in.

21:08>> No report, no nothing.

21:10>> Nothing. There was one guy they reported

21:12on and and headquarters wrote back and

21:14said, "Just put him on ice until we can

21:15figure out what to do." And they l

21:17literally just put him in a bathtub and

21:19filled it with ice and then just decided

21:21a couple days later he started to turn.

21:24We should probably bury this guy.

21:27>> Wow.

21:27>> Yeah, it was ugly. And and the Justice

21:30Department never said anything about

21:31that. They're like, "Oh, listen. Uh you

21:33know, you can do these techniques and if

21:35you kill him, just bury him out back."

21:36Yeah, that wasn't the that wasn't the

21:38approved operation.

21:40>> Was any of it effective? Like, was there

21:42any actionable information?

21:44>> That's that's the worst part of this. it

21:46it no none of it was effective. You

21:49know, I say this all the time, Joe. It's

21:51like a kick in my gut to have to

21:53compliment the FBI. But if there's one

21:56thing that the FBI is really good at,

21:59it's interrogations. They've been doing

22:00interrogations effectively since the

22:02Nuremberg trials in 45 and 46. These

22:06guys know what they're doing. And so

22:08with Abu Zuba as an example,

22:11we captured Abu Zubeda and normally

22:14overseas the CIA has primacy.

22:16Domestically the FBI has primacy, but

22:209/11 was still an open criminal

22:22investigation. And so we sent Abu Zuba

22:24out to the secret site and the FBI took

22:26over. The CIA was furious about this.

22:30But there was an FBI agent by the name

22:31of Ali Sufan who did exactly as he was

22:35trained to do. and he began to engage

22:37Abu Zubeta in a conversation. And Abu

22:40Zubeta just gave him the silent

22:41treatment for weeks. This went on for

22:44weeks. But you go in, you offer him a

22:47cup of coffee, you offer him an orange.

22:50If he's cooperative, you'll let him

22:51write a letter to his mother, you know,

22:53whatever. And finally, he opened up and

22:55he gave us actionable intelligence that

22:59saved American lives. And I'll give you

23:00two examples. Number one, we had no idea

23:03what the al-Qaeda wiring diagram looked

23:06like. We knew it was Bin Laden and

23:07Zoahi, and then we just didn't know

23:11what what the organization was was like,

23:14how it was built. So, he explained to us

23:16how each one of these cells all around

23:19the world was stovepiped,

23:20compartmentalized. So, cell A had no

23:23idea what cell B was doing. And um and

23:28Ali said as an example

23:30if you want to do an operation in let's

23:33say Dusseldorf how would you do that and

23:36Abu Zuba said well there's this guy

23:39Muhammad and here's his here's his phone

23:42number Muhammad lives in Dusseldorf and

23:44he has a cousin Abdullah and Abdullah

23:46has access to weapons and here's

23:48Abdullah's email and then Abdullah's got

23:50a friend Rashid they meet at the coffee

23:52shop and Rashid has has access to

23:55explosives Ives and then we're able to

23:57call the Germans and say, "Hey, listen.

23:59You have a serious problem in Dusseldorf

24:01and here's what you need to do." And

24:03then they kick down the door and they

24:04grab these guys. That saved lives. The

24:07other thing that he told us and he he

24:10laughed actually because Ali didn't know

24:13what the heck he was talking about. He

24:15was talking about Mkhtar, a guy using

24:18the Numara Mtar. We knew from our own

24:21files that there was this guy out there

24:25who called himself Mktd who was a very

24:28bad guy. In 1996,

24:31he had initiated something called the

24:33Bojinka operation. It was supposed to be

24:36carried out uh in the Philippines and

24:39the idea was to hijack as many as 14

24:43747s

24:44and then fly them into buildings all up

24:46and down the west coast of the United

24:48States. It just so happened that one day

24:51Mkhuar working on his plan, his

24:54diabolical terrorism plan, he went out

24:57to have lunch. And when he went out to

24:59have lunch, the cleaning lady came in to

25:01clean the apartment. And she sees all

25:03this stuff laid out and she said, "That

25:05looks like a terrorist attack being

25:07planned." She calls the cops. The cops

25:10come and say, "Oo, this looks like a

25:12terrorist attack. We better call the

25:14Philippine Intelligence Service." They

25:16come and look at it and somebody says,

25:18"We should probably call the CIA on

25:20this." And so we confiscated everything

25:24and Bojinko was disrupted.

25:27>> That's crazy.

25:28>> It's crazy.

25:29>> A cleaning lady.

25:30>> You never know. You just never know.

25:33>> It's just crazy that he would leave the

25:34plans just laying around

25:36>> thinking nobody's nobody's going to

25:38come. Nobody's going to see it. And then

25:40he ran off. So we knew there was this

25:42guy out there planning this big thing

25:45and his name was Mktar. Abu Zuba laughed

25:47at us and said you don't know who Mktar

25:49is. And Ali said no. And Abu Zuba said

25:53his name is Khaled Shikh Muhammad.

25:57That's the first time we ever heard that

25:58name. We didn't have any documents in

26:00any files that were about any guy named

26:03Khaled Shik Muhammad. But that was the

26:05very first time we were able to piece it

26:07all together. And it was thanks to Abu

26:09Zuba in turn thanks to Ali Sufan's

26:12treating Abu Zuba with respect. But on

26:16August the 1st, George Ten 2002, George

26:20Tennant went to the White House and he

26:22asked the president for reasons that

26:23have never been made clear. He asked the

26:25president to turn over primacy to the

26:27CIA.

26:30He did that. And the CIA director,

26:32Robert Mueller, to his credit, he knew

26:35exactly what was going to come. not only

26:37withdrew FBI personnel from the secret

26:41site, he withdrew FBI personnel from the

26:44country that the secret site was in and

26:47within 12 hours the CIA began to torture

26:50Abus Beta. He went completely silent and

26:53remained silent and then the FBI went

26:56back to the president and said, "Look,

26:57the CIA is screwing this up. We were

26:59getting all this intelligence from this

27:01guy. Now he won't say anything. And

27:03we're putting him in a coffin. And we we

27:06heard that he had this irrational fear

27:08of bugs. So we we pour a box of

27:11cockroaches on him in the coffin and

27:13close up the coffin. And we would open

27:15it up every couple days to change his

27:17diaper and give him food. And he went

27:18nuts. And so finally the White House

27:22turns everything back over to the FBI.

27:24It takes Ali months to get him to talk

27:28again. And then he starts talking again.

27:30and he's given us more and more

27:32information about al-Qaeda operations in

27:35Malaysia and anti- Australia operations

27:39and what's going on in Canada and how

27:42al-Qaeda is able to move across borders

27:45uh between Europe and Asia and then the

27:47CIA comes back in again and starts

27:49torturing him again

27:51>> and screwed it all up. Now, why would

27:54they do that? I don't understand. If

27:56you're getting information

27:57>> Mhm.

27:59>> why would they decide to ramp it up and

28:01torture him?

28:02>> I think for a couple of reasons. I think

28:04we should never underestimate the

28:05motivating factor of of a desire for

28:09revenge. Right? This was the worst

28:12intelligence failure in the history of

28:15the country. 3,000 people died because

28:19we hadn't done our jobs.

28:21So that was one thing. The other thing

28:24is the CIA had entered into an agreement

28:26with these two contract psychologists uh

28:28James Mitchell and Bruce Jessen in

28:31October of 2001 and they said hey we've

28:35reverse engineered the military's SEIR

28:38program and we think this would be an

28:40effective but harsh uh interrogation

28:44technique. And so we were chomping at

28:46the bit at the agency to try this thing

28:49out without using the word torture. We

28:52paid those guys $18

28:55million

28:56to say, "Oh, we think you should torture

28:58people. Here's here are the torture

29:00techniques. Just let us know when you

29:01want us to start." $108 million for

29:04that. And so we thought, "Well, we've

29:08already spent the money and we really do

29:10want revenge on these guys, so what the

29:13hell? Let's just let's just go for it."

29:15I think that's what it was.

29:17>> Wow.

29:19So, how did you get in trouble?

29:23>> I waited for somebody to say something

29:27about torture and nobody did. And then I

29:30got divorced. My my kids moved with my

29:33ex-wife to Ohio and they were little.

29:36They needed their dad. So, I decided I'm

29:38going to leave the agency, go into the

29:39private sector so I can see my boys on

29:41the weekends. And um and still I waited

29:44for somebody to say something and nobody

29:46did. Now, I wish that I could tell you

29:49that I stood up and I took a stand and

29:54and that wasn't it at all. I got a call

29:57in December of 2007. So now I I'm out of

30:02the agency three and a half years. I got

30:04a call from Brian Ross at ABC News and

30:07he said that he had a source who said I

30:10had tortured Abu Zabeta. I said that was

30:13absolutely false. I was the only person

30:17who was kind to Abu Zubeda. I said, I've

30:20never laid a hand on Abu Zubeda or any

30:22other prisoner.

30:24And he said, well, you're welcome to

30:26come on the show and defend yourself.

30:29Well, I had never spoken to an an a

30:31reporter before. I I didn't know that

30:34was a reporter's trick. So, I said, I'll

30:37think about it. In the meantime,

30:40President Bush, I remember it being a

30:43Monday. President Bush gives a press

30:45conference and

30:49the International Committee of the Red

30:50Cross had said in a paper that the CIA

30:53was torturing prisoners. Uh, Human

30:55Rights Watch said CIA is torturing

30:57prisoners and Amnesty International said

30:59CIA's torturing prisoners. So, a

31:01reporter says, "Look, all these

31:02international human rights organizations

31:04are saying that the CIA is torturing its

31:06prisoners. What's your response to

31:08that?" And the president looks right in

31:10the camera and he goes, "We do not

31:13torture like that." And I said to my

31:16wife, who was a senior CIA officer, I

31:18said, "He is a bald-faced liar. He's

31:22looking the American people right in the

31:25eye, and he's lying to us." And she

31:29said, "Are you surprised?"

31:31Well, then on Wednesday, two days later,

31:35um he gets another a similar question

31:40and he said that there is no torture. I

31:42knew he was lying. And then another two

31:45days later, it's Friday and he's walking

31:48from the South Portico of the White

31:49House to the helicopter to go to Camp

31:51David for the weekend and a torture

31:54shout a torture, a reporter shouts

31:57another question about torture. And this

31:59time he stops and he turns and he says,

32:02"Well, if there is torture, it's because

32:04of a rogue CIA officer." And I said to

32:08my wife, "Brian Ross's sources at the

32:10White House and they're going to pin

32:12this on me." So I called Brian Ross and

32:16I said, "I'll give you your interview."

32:17And I decided in the whatever it was,

32:20>> why did you think they were going to pin

32:21it on you? Because they were calling you

32:23the human rights guy. So that you were

32:24going to be a

32:25>> pathy.

32:26And I was not willing assumed that that

32:28was happen because that's just your

32:30experience with the organization.

32:32>> Oh yeah. They're going to leave somebody

32:33out to dry to protect themselves. So I

32:36called Brian Ross. I said, "I'll give

32:37you your interview." And I decided that

32:40whatever he was going to ask me, and he

32:42never told me in advance what he was

32:43going to ask me, I was just going to

32:45tell the truth. And so he met me at uh

32:49the ABC News uh studios on Dale Street

32:53in Washington. And um and I said three

32:56things in that interview that changed

32:58the course of the rest of my life. I

33:01said that the CIA was torturing its

33:03prisoners. I said that torture was

33:05official US government policy. It was

33:07not the result of any rogue officer. And

33:10I said that the policy had been

33:12personally approved by the president

33:14himself.

33:15And then, as you can imagine, within 24

33:19hours, the CIA files what's called a

33:21crimes report against me with the FBI,

33:23saying that I had revealed classified

33:26information.

33:28The FBI then investigates me from

33:30December of ' 07 to December of '08. And

33:34then they send my attorney a letter

33:36called a declination letter declining to

33:39prosecute. They said that they had

33:41completed their investigation, that the

33:44information was already out there

33:47because of Amnesty International, Human

33:49Rights Watch, and the Red Cross. But

33:51most importantly, torture is a crime,

33:54and it is illegal to classify a crime

33:59for the purpose of keeping it from the

34:00American people. So, no charges. My wife

34:03and I went out to celebrate that night.

34:05We went to dinner.

34:07Three, four weeks later, Barack Obama

34:11becomes president and he names John

34:14Brennan. At first, CIA director, but the

34:18liberals went crazy because Brennan was

34:20one of the fathers of the torture

34:21program. Everybody seems to forget that

34:23now, and we can get into that if you

34:26want, but um but he then names Brennan

34:29the deputy national security adviser for

34:31counterterrorism.

34:33Brennan immediately sends a memo to Eric

34:37Holder, the new attorney general,

34:41and says, talking about me, charge him

34:44with espionage.

34:46And Holder writes back, we we got these

34:49memos in discovery when I went to trial.

34:52Um Holder writes back and says, "My

34:55people don't think he committed

34:56espionage."

34:58And then Brennan writes back and says,

34:59"Charge him anyway and make him defend

35:01himself." So they charged me with five

35:05felonies, three counts of espionage.

35:08They waited until I went bankrupt

35:11and then they dropped the espionage

35:13charges.

35:17>> Yeah.

35:19>> Oh god, that's so gross.

35:20>> That's Washington. It's just so hard to

35:23believe that the United States of

35:26America government works like that. I

35:29believe it. I believe it. It's hard to

35:31swallow.

35:32>> There's a book by Harvey Silverglate

35:34who's a professor of law at Harvard

35:36University. The book is called Three

35:38Felonies a Day. And he says that we are

35:41so overregulated, so overcriminalized

35:45in this country that the average

35:47American on the average day going about

35:52his or her normal daily business commits

35:55three felonies every single day. So if

35:59they want to get you, they're going to

36:01get you. And there's nothing you can do

36:03to protect yourself.

36:05[Music]

36:07So, what was Brennan's beef with you?

36:10>> Was it just because of the fact that you

36:12did that interview or was there

36:15underlying tension? We were never pals.

36:19I've known John Brennan for 35 years. We

36:22never really cared for each other. To

36:25tell you the truth,

36:27I I thought the guy was in over his head

36:30intellectually.

36:32Uh he when I first started there, he was

36:34a deputy group chief. He was a GS-15

36:37nobody journeyman, you know, first line,

36:40second line manager, no big deal. There

36:42are hundreds of them. And he worked for

36:44this really wonderful woman, a a great

36:47intellect, uh named Martha Kesler. And

36:50Martha was so highly respected. She had

36:52written this book, I still remember the

36:54title, called Syria, Fragile Mosaic of

36:57Power. And when you got hired, you got

36:59her book. and you had to read the book

37:01because like this is what we do. This is

37:03the perfect example of what we do. So he

37:06was her deputy. One day he went to her

37:08and he said, "Martha, you know, I've

37:10been your deputy for x number of years.

37:12I think I'm ready for promotion into the

37:14senior intelligence service." And Martha

37:17said, and I just talked to her daughter

37:18a couple of weeks ago about this. Martha

37:21said,

37:22"Not only will you never be a member of

37:25the senior intelligence service, I don't

37:27even want you working for me anymore.

37:29you're fired. Well, you're not really

37:32fired at the CIA. If you're fired, that

37:36means you have six weeks to walk the

37:38halls and find another job. If you can't

37:40find another job in six weeks, then they

37:43escort you to your car, they take your

37:45badge, and you know, so long, good luck.

37:49Well, it's the normal job turnover is in

37:52the summertime. This is the week before

37:55Christmas

37:5719

37:5893

38:00or four, I can't recall now. And um

38:05there are no jobs open at Christmas. So

38:08he finally finds one job. It is in the

38:11PDB staff, the president's daily brief,

38:14and it is as a a morning briefer,

38:18giving the president's daily brief

38:20briefing to the lowest ranking person

38:24and titled to a PDB briefing. So that's

38:26the National Security Council's director

38:29for intelligence programs, who happened

38:32to be this guy named George Tennant.

38:35And so they immediately hit it off. two

38:38alpha dogs cigar smoking hard drink and

38:42there used to be a kiosk right at the

38:43corner of 17th and Pennsylvania Avenue

38:46adjacent to the White House that sold

38:48cigars. Tenant had had a heart attack

38:51and he wasn't supposed to smoke and his

38:52wife would yell at him. So they would

38:54after the briefing they'd walk out to

38:55the kiosk and buy cigars and just stand

38:57there and laugh and you know talk about

39:00chasing women or whatever. Totally hit

39:03it off. Then Tenant becomes the deputy

39:05director of the CIA. So he brings he

39:09brings Brennan back with him and makes

39:12him Martha Kesler's boss, deputy

39:15director of the office that Martha's

39:18working in. He calls Martha Kesler in

39:20and says, "Now you're fired." And so she

39:24just elected to retire.

39:26Well, he ended up being identified by

39:30tenant as the guy like this is my guy.

39:34This guy's going places. He needs

39:36operational experience because he's been

39:38an analyst and an analytic manager all

39:40these years. I'm going to make him the

39:41station chief in Riyad, Saudi Arabia.

39:44He's an analyst. He's never served

39:46overseas before. Never recruited a spy

39:49ever. It wasn't his job. Now all of a

39:52sudden, he's the the station chief in

39:54one of the most important stations in

39:55the world. So he does that for a long

39:58time, by the way, during which he

40:01approves the visas for the 9/11

40:03hijackers.

40:05and uh then he comes back as the deputy

40:10executive director of the whole CIA

40:13right so it's director deputy director

40:16executive director and then the deputy

40:19directors for operations intelligence

40:21science technology administration and

40:24they're they're dotted lines so he's now

40:26one of the five most senior people in

40:29the entire CIA he does that for a couple

40:31of years and then becomes the executive

40:32director by the time I get promoted to

40:35be the morning briefer for the director

40:37and executive assistant. I'm throwing

40:39all these stupid terms out. Executive

40:41assistant to the deputy director for

40:43operations. I'm meeting with Brennan

40:45every single day. So, we're we're doing

40:48the Iraq war. We're doing terrorism and

40:51al-Qaeda and all this stuff.

40:54He didn't like me and I didn't like him.

40:56And then when I became the quote unquote

41:00human rights guy, that just kind of

41:02sealed it for me. But I didn't care cuz

41:04I didn't respect him. Anyhow, I I will

41:07say that that Jim Pavitt, the deputy

41:10deputy director for operations,

41:12legendary officer and a really great

41:15guy. He hated Brennan more than I did.

41:18And he used to mock Brennan because

41:20Brennan at the time was telling

41:23everybody, "I want to head my own

41:25agency. I want to head my own agency."

41:27and they finally put him in charge of

41:28this thing that was temporarily called

41:30the TTICK, the transnational terrorism

41:32information center. It later became the

41:34National Counterterrorism Center. Um,

41:38and they sort sort of shunted him off

41:40there and it was a nothing analytic

41:42organization, not even in the in the

41:45headquarters building. It was out one of

41:46the outlying buildings and then he kind

41:49of went away. But where he really did

41:52write for himself is in 2007 there was

41:57this there was this wave of retirements,

42:00right? We're we're enough now beyond 911

42:04that people can begin to retire. So this

42:06huge wave of senior level retirements in

42:09'07 and then once these guys retired

42:12half of them went to the McCain campaign

42:14and half of them went to the Hillary

42:15Clinton campaign and John Brennan was

42:18literally the only one who went to the

42:21Obama campaign

42:24>> and he saved himself.

42:27>> Wow. So

42:30how did you wind up going to prison?

42:33Well, as soon as Barack Obama became

42:36president, John Brennan decided he was

42:39going to have my head. And so he asked

42:44uh Holder to have the FBI um grab me.

42:48And I'll tell you what, they they knew

42:50they didn't have a case. So there's a

42:53little bit of background. Um from 2009

42:56to the end of 2011, I was the senior

42:59investigator on the Senate Foreign

43:00Relations Committee working for John

43:02Kerry. It was a terrible job. Kerry

43:04said, "Oh, I want you to do this and do

43:06that and we're going to investigate this

43:08and investigate that." And then he would

43:09kill all the investigations because he

43:11wanted to be Secretary of State and he

43:13didn't want to piss anybody at the White

43:14House off.

43:16So, I can't talk about how Afghanistan

43:19produces 93% of the world's heroin and

43:22all of it is because the CIA said they

43:24could. I can't talk about the dashyle

43:26massacre where 2,000 Taliban soldiers

43:28were suffocated to death in container

43:30trucks because the CIA didn't punch

43:33holes for them to breathe in the in the

43:35containers. Can't talk about any of that

43:37stuff because you want to be the

43:38Secretary of State. So, I left in 2011.

43:42And right before I left,

43:46I got a call from a Japanese diplomat.

43:49And this is one of the things that I I

43:51loved about that job is this constant

43:54engagement with foreign diplomats, like

43:57who's doing what and what do you think

43:58about Israel? What do you think about

44:00China? What do you think about what's

44:01going on in, you know, Mexico or Cuba or

44:04whatever? And um I get a call from this

44:06Japanese diplomat and he invites me to

44:08lunch. I said, great. We meet at a place

44:10uh on Capitol Hill and um I I remember

44:14that lunch very well. I remember we

44:16talked about Israeli elections. We

44:18talked about Turkish elections and we

44:20talked about the Arab-Israeli peace

44:21process. And at the end of the lunch, he

44:24says to me, and I should add, his

44:27English was so bad that we had to do the

44:30lunch in Arabic.

44:33So, he said, "What's next for you?" And

44:35I said, "Well, I think I'm going to

44:37resign soon. I promised Senator Kerry

44:39I'd give him two years. It's been two

44:41and a half. I have five kids, and I

44:44really need to make some money and put

44:45my kids through college." And he goes,

44:47"No,

44:49don't do that. If you give me

44:52information, I can give you money."

44:56And I said, "What the [ __ ] is wrong with

44:58you? You have any idea how many times

45:01I've made that pitch? Shame on you cold

45:03pitching me like that?" And I got up

45:05indignantly and I walked out. And I

45:08walked and I mean directly without

45:10stopping to the office of the Senate

45:12Security Officer. And I I knocked on the

45:15door. I went in. And I said, "Hey, I was

45:17just pitched by a foreign intelligence

45:19officer." And he goes, "Was it that damn

45:21Russian again?" And I said, "No, it was

45:23Japanese." He goes, "Japanese?" I said,

45:26"I know, right?" He goes, "Well, no.

45:28Sometimes they poke around looking for

45:30trade information." I said, "This didn't

45:32have anything to do with trade

45:33information." I don't think I don't

45:35know. We didn't even get that far. He

45:38said, "Okay, do me a favor." He said,

45:39"I've got a standalone computer here

45:41that's not connected to the internet.

45:43write it up as a memo and I'm gonna

45:45courier it over to the FBI. So I sat

45:47there and I wrote the whole thing

45:49blowby-blow.

45:50The next day he calls me and he says,

45:52"Two FBI agents are going to come up and

45:54talk to you." And I said, "Okay." So

45:56they come up. I recount the whole the

45:58whole lunch and they said, "All right,

46:00here's what we want you to do. We want

46:02you to call him back, invite him to

46:04lunch, and then try to get him to tell

46:06you exactly what information he wants

46:09and how much he's willing to pay for

46:11it." And I said, because I'm a patriot,

46:14I said, 'You want me to wear a wire? And

46:17they said, 'N no, we're going to be at

46:18the next table. We're going to listen to

46:20everything. I said, 'But he only speaks

46:22Arabic. That's okay. We got a guy who

46:24speaks Arabic. Don't worry. I said, all

46:25right. So, I call him. I invite him to

46:27lunch. We go to lunch, do the whole

46:30thing. But before the lunch, right

46:31before the lunch, they called and they

46:33said, "Operation came up. Just write us

46:36another another memo. Do the lunch and

46:38write us another memo." I said, "Fine."

46:40So I write another memo. They asked me

46:41to do it a third time, a fourth time,

46:44and a fifth time. The fifth time, he

46:47says to me, "I have great news." He

46:50said, "I got my dream job. I've been

46:52promoted and I'm going to be the deputy

46:55ambassador in Cairo." And I said,

46:57"Congratulations." I shook his hand,

47:00never saw him again.

47:02So I've written all this to the FBI. One

47:06day in January of 2012, so I've been out

47:09of the Senate for about 9 months,

47:13the FBI calls and I look at my cell

47:15phone, it says Federal Bureau of

47:17Investigation. I was like, I wonder what

47:18that's all about. So I answer and they

47:20said, hey, you remember that thing you

47:22helped us out with a year ago. And I

47:25said, yeah. And they said, we've got a

47:27similar situation and we need your help.

47:30And again, because I'm a patriot, I

47:32said, anything for the FBI. I kick

47:35myself now for saying it. I said,

47:37"Anything for the FBI. What do you want

47:39me to do?" They said, "Come down to the

47:41Washington field office Thursday morning

47:42at 10:00." I said, "Done."

47:45I go down there the next Thursday

47:48and uh they're waiting for me at the

47:49entrance. Which I thought was odd. And

47:52we go up to a conference room and they

47:54said, "We're both cleared. Si, TK,

47:56gamma." And then there were two

47:59compartments above top secret that I was

48:02cleared for that they said they were

48:04cleared for. And so if the if the

48:07conversation necessitated it, we could

48:09go into that area.

48:13So they said, "Well, before before we

48:16start, just wanted to ask you, just read

48:18your book. It was great. I loved it.

48:20Hey, what about this that you said in

48:22your book?" And I was like, "Yeah, okay.

48:24Yeah, it was a cool story. What about

48:26this other thing?" Yeah, I had fun. I

48:28said, "It was kind of hard. You know, it

48:30took me nine months to write the book.

48:3222 months to get it cleared." "Oh, yeah,

48:34you got it cleared." "Yeah, of course I

48:35got it cleared." "2 months it took me to

48:38get it cleared." I'm thinking, "What an

48:39odd question."

48:42Then they start asking me about

48:43something called the Sam Adams Project.

48:45And I said, "I'm sorry, I don't know

48:47what that means."

48:49And then the bad cop of the two says,

48:52"We know you've been giving information

48:54to the Guantanamo defense attorneys." I

48:57said, 'What are you talking about?

49:00And then I said, "Wait a minute. Are you

49:03investigating me?"

49:06And they said, "Yeah, and we're raiding

49:08your house right now as we speak." And I

49:12said, "Thank God." I said, "I want to

49:14speak to my attorney right now." That

49:16was the only reason that they didn't

49:18arrest me. And one of the things that I

49:19learned, and this became painfully

49:22evident when they started arresting

49:23January 6 people, was the FBI in

49:26Washington likes to make its arrests on

49:28Thursdays

49:30because there are no federal

49:32arraignments on Friday. So, you're in

49:34the DC jail Thursday night, Friday

49:36night, Saturday night, Sunday night

49:38getting the [ __ ] beaten out of you. And

49:41then they arraign you on Monday. and

49:43then you want to make a deal just so you

49:45don't ever have to go inside that prison

49:47again. But because I asked to see my

49:50attorney, they let me go. So I called

49:52the attorney as soon as I I got out of

49:54the office. Actually, when I was walking

49:56out,

49:58one of them went over to I didn't know

50:01it at the time, but it was Peter Stro.

50:03And Peter Stro says, "Tell me he

50:06implicated himself."

50:08And the guy said, "Not really. No, we

50:11have to let him go. And so I grabbed my

50:14cell phone and I left. Went to the

50:16attorney's office. They had already

50:18called my attorney and said they were

50:20charging me with espionage. I hadn't

50:22committed espionage. They knew I hadn't

50:24committed espionage. And in fact, since

50:27then, I'm fast forwarding a lot. Three

50:31FBI agents have reached out to me, well,

50:33two to my attorneys. One reached out to

50:35me directly to apologize saying that

50:38this came from the top. They thought it

50:40was a BS case. they were sorry they were

50:43involved, but there was nothing they

50:44could do. One guy reached out to me

50:46through eBay of all things, like to try

50:49to cover up the uh the trail. He's like,

50:52"Listen, I've I've been losing sleep

50:54over this for, excuse me, for the last

50:5613 years. I just wanted to tell you how

50:58sorry I am blah blah blah." It's like,

51:01"Well, I hope you feel better. My whole

51:03life fell apart, but I'm glad you got

51:06that off your chest." So um it became a

51:10matter of of just survival after that.

51:13You know you have to take it seriously.

51:15I was facing 45 years in prison and then

51:18when the justice department um made a a

51:22request for a profer meeting. The profer

51:25meeting is they'll give you a little

51:26idea of what they have against you and

51:28then they make an offer. You can take it

51:30or leave it. And they offered me 45

51:33years. And I said, "I'm not doing 45

51:39minutes.

51:40I didn't do anything wrong." And this

51:43woman, she became deputy attorney

51:46general uh for the criminal division

51:48under Biden. She said, "Take this deal,

51:52Mr. Kiryaku, and you may live to meet

51:54your grandchildren."

51:56>> Oh my god. Oh, it was I went home that

51:59night and

52:01I went I'm I'm ashamed to even say it.

52:04That night we we put the kids to bed and

52:07my wife and I were watching TV and she

52:10said, "Come on, let's go to bed." I

52:12said, "I can't sleep. I There's no way

52:14I'm going to be able to sleep." And she

52:15said, "No, come on. Let's go to bed."

52:17She knew

52:19I was going to go down into the garage,

52:21turn the car on, and just lay across the

52:23back seat. And she said, "No, come on.

52:26you need to try to get some sleep. And

52:28she saved me that night, but 45 years.

52:32And so

52:34they waited 10 months before they were

52:38even willing to engage in a

52:39conversation. And then they offered 10

52:42years on a Monday. On Wednesday, they

52:45offered eight. And on Friday, they

52:47offered five. My lead attorney was this

52:50legendary guy named Plato Cacheras.

52:54And Plato said, "You know, I've been a

52:57criminal defense attorney in this city

52:59for 52 years, and this is the first time

53:02I've ever seen them come down in time."

53:06He said, "Usually they offer you 10, you

53:08say no, the next offer is 15, then the

53:10next offer is 20." I said, "Why are they

53:13coming down in time?" He said, "Because

53:15they have a [ __ ] case and they know it's

53:16[ __ ] and that's why we're going to go to

53:18trial and we're going to win this

53:19thing." I said, "Great." Well,

53:24they they they stayed at five and then

53:28they came back and they said three and a

53:31half. And I said, "I'm going to trial.

53:34I'm going to win this thing." Turned out

53:36at the time my best friend, his wife had

53:40an uncle who was OJ Simpson's jury

53:42consultant. And she called him for me

53:44and she said, "Hey, my friend John, he's

53:46in this situation. He's like, "Yeah, I

53:47read about this in the papers. He could

53:49use your help." He came up, didn't

53:51charge me a scent. He came up to

53:53Washington. We got him a security

53:55clearance and uh which was another

53:57thing. We asked for a security clearance

54:00and then uh the the uh Justice

54:03Department called and said the White

54:05House said Kuryaku's attorneys have

54:06enough security clearances. And I said,

54:09who at the White House said we have

54:10enough security clearances? Well, they

54:13had to tell us that it was John Brennan.

54:16No more attorneys for Kuryaku. Fisher

54:18cut bait. We're like, it's not up to

54:20John Brennan to decide if I have enough

54:23attorneys. You They have an unlimited

54:26number of attorneys, an unlimited

54:27budget. As it turned out, they spent $6

54:31million to put me in prison. Was society

54:34really better off spending $6 million to

54:38put me in a low security prison for for

54:4123 months?

54:43So

54:45in the end they said best and final

54:47offer

54:4930 months you do 23.

54:53Well I was only the second American who

54:55had ever been charged with this crime of

54:58um violating the Intelligence Identities

55:00Protection Act of 1982.

55:04Uh the only other person that was

55:06charged with it was a woman named Sharon

55:08Screenage. She was a CIA secretary in

55:10Ghana in the 80s and she was having an

55:14affair with a member of Ghana's

55:16intelligence service. And in the course

55:18of pillow talk, she revealed the names

55:21of all of the CIA officers in the

55:23station and the names of the sources

55:26they were running. And so the Ganaans

55:29executed these guys.

55:30>> Oh my god.

55:32>> She got nine months in prison. Nine

55:35months. and they offer me 45 years

55:40for blowing the whistle on the torture

55:41program. So my wife and I stayed up all

55:45night, literally all night, and because

55:47Sharon Scranage had taken a plea, there

55:49was literally no case law. So what we

55:52found, we found several things. Um, we

55:55found several articles from the Harvard

55:57Law Review saying this law is

55:59unconstitutional.

56:00It it violates the First Amendment and

56:03it is prior restraint. right? Like it

56:07tells you in advance, you can't say X,

56:09Y, and Z,

56:11but because there was no case law, you

56:13can't you couldn't challenge it in

56:14court. And I said, "Well, can't we just

56:16appeal appeal the charge and maybe, you

56:20know, all the way up to the Supreme

56:22Court?" And they said, "Yeah, we can do

56:23that post conviction

56:26and then you're going to be 45 years

56:28waiting and hoping that the Supreme

56:30Court does the right thing. We can't do

56:31that."

56:33So, um,

56:36so I decided by 6:00 a.m. I'm going to

56:39turn it down. I believed in my heart I

56:42hadn't done anything right. This was

56:44political. It was a vendetta by John

56:46Brennan. And Obama, by all accounts, I

56:49had friends of course who were still

56:50working at the agency and working at the

56:52uh at the CIA or at the White House. And

56:54they said that Obama had this Nixonian

56:58obsession with national security leaks.

57:02And it's because that came from Brennan.

57:04Obama was a senator for two years. He

57:07didn't have any experience doing

57:08anything. So he did what John Brennan

57:11told him to do. And Brennan said, "You

57:13got to crack down on these leaks. They

57:14do nothing but embarrass us. So, um, I

57:18decided I'm going to turn it down. 6:00

57:20a.m. I send an email to my attorneys. I

57:22had 11 attorneys.

57:24I was paying half of them, five of them.

57:27And, um, and then one of them writes

57:30back and says, "Put on a pot of coffee.

57:31We'll be at the house by 7." So, they

57:33come to my house. The the four main ones

57:36came to the house. Plato was the first

57:38one in. I imagine this like 80year-old

57:426'2, 280 lb mean old man. He comes in

57:47and I said, "Good morning, Plato." And

57:49he said, "You stupid son of a [ __ ]

57:52Take the deal." Like that. I said, "Take

57:54the deal? You're the one that told me

57:56not to take the deal. You're the one who

57:58told me we're going to go to trial and

57:59win this thing." And he says, "I only

58:02told you that to keep your spirits up."

58:05>> Oh god. And then the second one, his

58:07partner Bob Trout, a sweet

58:11gentleman, a southern gentleman, he

58:14says, "If you were my own brother, I

58:18would beg you to take this deal."

58:21And I'm like, "Now, what do I do?" And

58:23then the third,

58:26who is the guy Mark McDougall, one of

58:29the best attorneys I've ever encountered

58:31in my life. and and the one that I liked

58:35and respected the most out of all of

58:36them. I liked all of them and respected

58:38all of them, but but I felt a connection

58:40to this guy. He pulls me aside. He was a

58:42little bit angry and he said, "You know

58:44what your problem is? Your problem is

58:47you think this is about justice and it's

58:49not about justice. It's about mitigating

58:51damage. Take the deal."

58:55And I looked at my wife, she's just

58:58like, "What are we going to do?" So, I

59:02took the deal

59:04and I got two and a half years in prison

59:07and they made me do every single day of

59:10it. In fact, we went to sentencing and

59:14um this was in the Eastern District of

59:15Virginia, the the espionage court. And

59:18the reason why we didn't go to trial in

59:20the end was that the the OJ Simpson uh

59:23jury consultant said, "If we were if we

59:26were in any other district in America, I

59:29would say, "Let's go for it. We're going

59:31to win this thing." But the Eastern

59:33District of Virginia, your entire jury

59:35is going to be people from the CIA, from

59:37the FBI, from DoD, from intelligence

59:40community contractors. He said, "Buddy,

59:43you don't have a prayer. Take the deal.

59:47Yeah,

59:49>> it was bad.

59:50>> Wow.

59:50>> So, at sentencing, my attorney said,

59:53"Your honor, we request that Mr. Kuryaku

59:54be sent to a minimum security work

59:56camp." She says, "Any objection from the

59:59justice department?" They said, "No

1:00:00objection." She goes, "Okay, minimum

1:00:02security work camp. No bars on the

1:00:04windows, no locks on the doors. You're

1:00:06free to come and go as you please.

1:00:08You're just on your honor, not to

1:00:09abscond."

1:00:11And most of the guys work. There's a

1:00:12little college in town. You go sweep the

1:00:15floors or whatever.

1:00:17So, I got to the prison

1:00:20three months later and uh it's it's

1:00:23weird the system that we have, Joe. You

1:00:25just you walk up and you knock on the

1:00:26door and you say, "Hi, I'm I'm John

1:00:28Kiraak. I'm here to turn myself in.

1:00:30That's all you do." And your friends and

1:00:31family just drive away. And so they

1:00:35said, "Yeah, uh you got to go across the

1:00:37street to the actual prison. They'll

1:00:39process you and then they just bring you

1:00:40back over here." And I said, "Okay."

1:00:41Okay. So, I go across the street and uh

1:00:44I said, "I'm I'm John Kuryako. I'm here

1:00:46to turn myself in." And uh and the guy

1:00:49takes me by the arm. We go outside and

1:00:52we start walking around to the back of

1:00:54the prison. And I said, "No, no, I'm

1:00:57supposed to be at the at the minimum

1:00:58security camp across the street." And

1:01:00the guy laughs at me and he goes, "Not

1:01:03according to my paperwork. You're not."

1:01:05And I was like, "Oh my god, take it

1:01:07easy." We later learned

1:01:10Brennan was so angry at the shortness of

1:01:13my sentence that he told them, "Make it

1:01:17as difficult as possible."

1:01:21So, I told myself, "Take it easy. If you

1:01:24make any ruckus, they're going to put

1:01:26you in solitary. Don't say a word." So,

1:01:27I didn't say a word. It took him about

1:01:3040 minutes to process me. Then, they

1:01:33walked me to my cell. The only thing the

1:01:35cop said to me, he says, "A word of

1:01:38advice, buddy. If anybody comes into

1:01:40your cell uninvited, that's an act of

1:01:43aggression." And I said, "Great. Thanks.

1:01:46I'm here 40 minutes and now I'm going to

1:01:48get my ass kicked. I appreciate it." And

1:01:51then I started that whole odyssey.

1:01:54>> And so what kind of prison were you in?

1:01:57I was in

1:01:59FCI, the Federal Correctional

1:02:01Institution at Lorettto, Pennsylvania,

1:02:03which is a low security prison, but it's

1:02:06called a low medium, and then there's a

1:02:08high medium. So, this was low medium. It

1:02:10took me 5 days to get access to a phone.

1:02:13And I called Mark McDougall, the the

1:02:16attorney that I liked so much, and I

1:02:18said, "Mark, they put me in the actual

1:02:21prison with the pedophiles and the mafia

1:02:24dons and the drug kingpins." I said,

1:02:26'What do I do?' He says, 'Oh my god.

1:02:29Well, he said, 'We could file a motion,

1:02:32but it'll be two years before we get a

1:02:34hearing and you'll be home by then. He

1:02:36said, "Buddy, I'm sorry. You're going to

1:02:37have to tough it out."

1:02:40And so that's what I did. Wow.

1:02:47So, you have this long career working

1:02:49for the government. They put you away.

1:02:52And what is it like for you

1:02:55to feel so betrayed

1:02:58and to get out

1:03:01and what what do what do what do you do

1:03:03when you get out?

1:03:05>> I was frankly very angry when I got out.

1:03:07I didn't realize how angry I was. Like

1:03:10people would mention it to me like maybe

1:03:12you should talk to somebody. Maybe you

1:03:14should, you know, think about a

1:03:16pharmaceutical option. And I was like

1:03:18why? There's nothing wrong with me.

1:03:21Yeah. I'm ready to fight and march and,

1:03:23you know, raise my fist against the

1:03:25Obama administration.

1:03:27And so, um, I was wrong, of course. I

1:03:31was I was so angry that that

1:03:36it it wasn't even healthy for the people

1:03:38around me. But I'll tell you the Joe,

1:03:41the hardest thing is you think you can

1:03:44just step back into your life again and

1:03:47you'll never be able to step back into

1:03:50your life. So I thought, okay, well, I'm

1:03:53I'm highly educated. I have a bachelor's

1:03:56degree in Middle Eastern studies. I have

1:03:58a master's degree in legislative uh

1:04:00policy analysis. I finished my PhD case

1:04:03uh uh classwork in uh in international

1:04:06affairs.

1:04:08I got rejected by McDonald's, by

1:04:11Safeway, by Target, by Uber. We don't

1:04:14hire uh felons.

1:04:17I mean, I couldn't get a job anywhere.

1:04:20>> And you're broke.

1:04:21>> And I was broke. Bankrupt.

1:04:24>> Mhm.

1:04:24>> So, you couldn't even get a job driving

1:04:26for Uber? No.

1:04:27>> Uber turned me down.

1:04:29>> Wow.

1:04:29>> Yeah. It's crazy. It's crazy. But you

1:04:32know what, though?

1:04:33>> What did you do? Well, I was confident

1:04:37that I was right and they were wrong.

1:04:40And my my wife,

1:04:43unfortunately, she's now my ex-wife, but

1:04:45she gave me some of the best advice

1:04:47anybody ever gave me. She said, "You

1:04:50have to keep telling your side of the

1:04:53story because eventually they're going

1:04:55to move on to their next victim. And if

1:04:57you keep talking, your side of the story

1:05:00is going to be the side of record and

1:05:02eventually the truth is going to come

1:05:04out. And sure enough, six weeks before

1:05:07um before I uh was released from prison,

1:05:10I called her. I was I was allowed to

1:05:13call her every other day for 15 minutes.

1:05:16So I called her and I said, "How was

1:05:17your day?" And she said, "It was great."

1:05:19And I said, "Really great? Why was why

1:05:21was it so great?" And she said, "Because

1:05:24the Senate torture report was released

1:05:25today and it proved that everything you

1:05:28said was true." And I said, "That is

1:05:31great." And she said, "John McCain stood

1:05:32up on the floor of the Senate and said,

1:05:34"If it weren't for John Kuryaku, the

1:05:36American people would never have had any

1:05:38idea what the CIA was doing in their

1:05:41name." And so when I got home, God bless

1:05:43him, I the one of the first calls I

1:05:45received was from John McCain's chief of

1:05:47staff. And he said, "Senator McCain

1:05:50says, "Welcome home." and he wants to

1:05:52know what he can do to be helpful.

1:05:54And I said, "Oh my god." I said, "Tell

1:05:56him." I said, "Thank you." I liked

1:05:58McCain very much from when I was working

1:05:59on Carrie's staff. Carrie was a little

1:06:01jealous of McCain. Um, and McCain would

1:06:04go out of his way to shake my hand and

1:06:06say hi. Carrie said to me one time, "Why

1:06:08don't you two get a room or something?"

1:06:10And I said, "No." I said, "It's we have

1:06:11this connection over torture." I said,

1:06:14"Main takes me seriously and I take him

1:06:16seriously." And so when I when I spoke

1:06:20to McCain, I said, "These damn Obama

1:06:22people, they confiscated my pension and

1:06:26I'm going to have to work until the day

1:06:27I die. They drove me into bankruptcy and

1:06:31took my pension."

1:06:33So

1:06:35he came up with this idea. It was a

1:06:37great idea to write an amendment. My

1:06:40attorney wrote this amendment to the

1:06:42National Defense Authorization Act of

1:06:452016, and it said that every American

1:06:51convicted of violating the Intelligence

1:06:53Identities Protection Act between

1:06:55October 1st and October 31st, 2012 shall

1:07:00hereby have his pension reinstated. So,

1:07:03of course, I'm the only person in the

1:07:05world that that refers to. So he he

1:07:08said, "Nobody reads these 1500page

1:07:10bills. We're going to slip it in there."

1:07:12And he said, "I'm going to be on the

1:07:13conference committee. We'll get it taken

1:07:14care of." And then he got sick. He got a

1:07:17brain tumor and he wasn't named to the

1:07:20conference committee. And so they pulled

1:07:23it back out again. And then he died. And

1:07:26so here I am 10 years later.

1:07:30The only way that this can be made right

1:07:35is with a presidential pardon. And

1:07:38that's what I've been working on for

1:07:40years now.

1:07:42>> So, what did what did you do for money?

1:07:45>> I was offered a job at a small think

1:07:47tank in Washington called the Institute

1:07:49for Policy Studies, and they said,

1:07:53"We'll give you an office, but you're

1:07:54going to have to raise your own salary."

1:07:57And so, it was just like constant

1:07:59GoFundMes. I did that for a year. I made

1:08:01$20,000 for the year. And I said, I

1:08:04can't do this. It's untenable.

1:08:06And so I just decided, look, no company

1:08:10is going to hire me, right? I can't go

1:08:12back into government again. And so I'm

1:08:15going to have to work for myself. So I I

1:08:19had already written my first book, made

1:08:21number number five on the New York Times

1:08:23bestsellers list. My second book, I

1:08:25wrote Longhand from prison. I ended up

1:08:27winning two literary awards for that

1:08:29book. book. I won the the pen first

1:08:31amendment award which along with the pen

1:08:33falner the Pulitzer and the Edgar Allen

1:08:35Poe is one of the big four and then I

1:08:37won the forward reviews memoir of the

1:08:39year that year I thought I'm going to

1:08:41keep writing books I started writing a

1:08:44column that ended up being syndicated

1:08:46through the consortium for independent

1:08:49journalism so it's like 200 small town

1:08:52papers around the country and um you

1:08:55know a little bit here a little bit

1:08:56there consulting and And the Greek

1:09:00government, I'm I happen to be Greek

1:09:02American, my grandparents all came from

1:09:04the island of roads.

1:09:06As soon as I was arrested, like within a

1:09:08day, the Greek ambassador called me and

1:09:11he said, "What can we do to be helpful?"

1:09:13And I said, "You can give me

1:09:14citizenship."

1:09:16And man, like that, I got Greek

1:09:19citizenship. And so as soon as I got out

1:09:22of prison, the Greek government hired me

1:09:24to help them write a new whistleblower

1:09:26protection law. And then they passed it

1:09:29quickly. The parliament passed it into

1:09:30law and then the European Union adopted

1:09:33it. So I went to Brussels and I

1:09:35testified there and then they repackaged

1:09:38it. Now it's the law of the land in all

1:09:40of the European Union. And then people

1:09:43in the states began taking me more

1:09:44seriously. I started doing some paid

1:09:47speaking gigs. I got hired as an adjunct

1:09:50professor at a couple of different

1:09:51universities. And then, you know, after

1:09:54a while you can make an okay living. I'm

1:09:57still gonna have to work until the day I

1:09:59die because I have literally nothing

1:10:03saved. It all went to the attorneys

1:10:06and uh you know hope for the best. I

1:10:08will say that I was a third generation

1:10:12Democrat. I left the Democratic party

1:10:16ages ago. Um

1:10:19John Brennan and Barack Obama's actions

1:10:22convinced me that I had done the right

1:10:24thing. And now I have found common cause

1:10:29with

1:10:31populist Republicans.

1:10:34You know, you don't have to agree on

1:10:35every issue, right? You don't have to

1:10:37like everybody and everything that they

1:10:39believe in and everything they stand

1:10:41for.

1:10:43But I've struck up a a great friendship,

1:10:46for example, with Tucker Carlson.

1:10:49Sweetest guy in the world and a great

1:10:52supporter of mine. and Judge Npalitano.

1:10:56It's a love fest every time that the two

1:10:58of us get together. And I realized that,

1:11:02you know, this thing this this political

1:11:05system we have, it's antiquated. It

1:11:08doesn't work. You have to you have to

1:11:11engage with the individual. Like I I

1:11:13never thought that I would be agreeing

1:11:15with Marjorie Taylor Green on some of

1:11:16these these civil liberties issues,

1:11:19right? or Thomas Massie or Bernie

1:11:22Sanders for that matter. But I've

1:11:24realized that now I've I've got to I've

1:11:27got to stand up for what's right, not

1:11:30what the DNC happens to think what's

1:11:32right or some politician that I used to,

1:11:36you know, think I had respect for thinks

1:11:38is right.

1:11:40A couple of nights before I left for

1:11:42prison,

1:11:43the director, the former director of the

1:11:46CIA's counterterrorism center, who later

1:11:48became the deputy director for

1:11:49operations and was very close to

1:11:51Brennan. He was the DDO when Brennan was

1:11:54the director of the CIA. He tweeted at

1:11:56me and he said, "Don't drop the soap."

1:11:59with a a laughing emoji.

1:12:02I gave myself a couple hours to cool

1:12:05off. And then I texted back and I said,

1:12:07"Jose, I'm on the right side of history

1:12:10and you are not."

1:12:13And that gave me such peace.

1:12:17I knew I could go to prison, survive

1:12:20this just fine, and come out and still

1:12:22make an impact. And, you know, knock on

1:12:25wood, that's how it's worked out.

1:12:33It's it's ugly, you know, and you get to

1:12:35prison.

1:12:37One of my attorneys said, "Hey, I've had

1:12:39I've collected a a list of 600 emails,

1:12:43email addresses from people who want to

1:12:46know how you're doing. Once you get

1:12:48there, once you get comfortable, just

1:12:51send me a a letter and I'll send it

1:12:53around to these people." I said, "Okay,

1:12:54great." It took me you you don't realize

1:12:57it but you're in shock for the first

1:12:59week or two and then I started settling

1:13:02into the routine

1:13:04and it was kind of I mean it was pretty

1:13:07screwed up that first day

1:13:1020 minutes after the cop warned me about

1:13:12people coming into my room unannounced.

1:13:15These two guys just walk in boldly just

1:13:17walk in. I jump up. I put my fist up. I

1:13:20go, "What do you want?" One of them has

1:13:22a swastika on his neck. It took up his

1:13:24entire neck. It came up onto his face.

1:13:27The other one had [ __ ] you tattooed on

1:13:30his eyelids. So I go, "What do you

1:13:32want?" And and the the swastika guy

1:13:35says, "You the new guy?" I said, "Yeah."

1:13:37So he says, "You a fag?" I said, "No,

1:13:41I'm not a fag." He said, "You a rat?" I

1:13:44said, "No, I didn't have anybody else in

1:13:46my case. I'm not a rat." And he says,

1:13:47"You a cho?" I go, "I don't know what

1:13:50that word means." He goes, "Chomo, child

1:13:54molester." I said, 'N no, I'm not a

1:13:56child molester. And he goes, "Okay, you

1:13:58could sit with the Aryans in the

1:14:00cafeteria." And I was like, "Oh,

1:14:03I guess I'm with the Aryans now."

1:14:06>> Oh, grand.

1:14:08Yeah. And then the guy across the hall

1:14:10from me was the boss of the Banano

1:14:11family. And uh one day he said to me, I

1:14:15I I would get the New York Times and and

1:14:17he would get the New York Post and we

1:14:18would trade at the end of each day. He

1:14:21asked me, "Let me ask you something." He

1:14:24says, "Why you sit with those Nazi

1:14:26retards in the cafeteria?" I said, 'I

1:14:29don't know, Pete. My my first day here,

1:14:32they told me to sit with them. He goes,

1:14:34"From today, you're with the Italians."

1:14:38And I said, "Awesome." And they became

1:14:40my closest friends. I mean, I got a book

1:14:43out of it. They were absolutely

1:14:46wonderful,

1:14:48honorable,

1:14:49honest,

1:14:51fun,

1:14:53the smallest so-called gang in the

1:14:55prison, but the one that commanded the

1:14:57most respect. And once word was out that

1:14:59I was with the Italians, it was hands

1:15:02off. And it was thanks to one guy, shout

1:15:05out to Mark Lanzelotti. Mark was from

1:15:07Philly and he saw in the New York Times

1:15:09I was going to be assigned to that

1:15:11prison on a Sunday. I was assigned on

1:15:14Thursday and he took it upon himself to

1:15:19go to every one of the Italians to say

1:15:22there's a CIA guy coming here. He's not

1:15:25an FBI agent. The FBI are cops and rats.

1:15:29The CIA protected us from the Muslims.

1:15:33And they're like, "Oh, okay." And so it

1:15:36was, you know, welcome.

1:15:39No problems.

1:15:40God, it has to be insanely stressful.

1:15:43>> It was like It was like living in the

1:15:44Twilight Zone. The stress the stress

1:15:46will kill you. It's incredible. You see

1:15:49people break down all the time. They

1:15:50just lose it. And it's not like you're

1:15:52going to, you know, be taken out to some

1:15:54medical unit someplace. You go to

1:15:56solitary and you can live or die down in

1:15:58there. Yeah. Oh, so I was telling you,

1:16:02so I I I waited about 6 weeks before I

1:16:05was comfortable enough to to write a a

1:16:07letter. So I I very arrogantly called it

1:16:11letter from Lorettto because I had such

1:16:13respect for Martin Luther King's letter

1:16:14from Birmingham jail. And so I said two

1:16:18things in this. I mean I talked about

1:16:20the food and I talked about the Italians

1:16:22and but I said two things. I said um

1:16:25there was this one guard who was really

1:16:26abusive. She was absolutely horrible.

1:16:28You know that phrase rode hard and put

1:16:31away wet. That was this that was this

1:16:33woman all tatted out from you know the

1:16:35neck down and just a nasty mean old

1:16:39awful awful person. So I was walking

1:16:42through the hall one day and she said

1:16:44hey are you that [ __ ] whose name

1:16:47I can't pronounce at mail call and I go

1:16:50Kiraku

1:16:52just like it's spelled. She goes how

1:16:54about if I call you [ __ ]

1:16:57like that. So I said classy and I walked

1:17:00away.

1:17:03Somebody later told me they're not

1:17:05allowed to talk to us that way. That's a

1:17:07violation of, you know, code 11.8

1:17:09subsection, you know, B, whatever. So I

1:17:13wrote it in the um in the letter. And I

1:17:16was just like, you know, life in prison.

1:17:17What am I going to do? This this woman

1:17:19swears at me. There's nothing I can do.

1:17:21The other thing was more important.

1:17:23I had been there three days and one of

1:17:26my cellmates was an Australian arsonist

1:17:28and he said, "Let me walk you around and

1:17:31introduce you to the guys." I said,

1:17:32"Okay." We go to this other housing unit

1:17:36and there's a little tiny guy there who

1:17:40didn't speak any English and he said,

1:17:41"This is I forget what his name is,

1:17:43Ahmed or something. He's from Iraq." And

1:17:45I said,

1:17:47"It's very nice to meet you." And he

1:17:49says, "Ah,

1:17:51I'm in Iraq." I said, 'Yeah, great.

1:17:53You're from Iraq. I was in Iraq. It's

1:17:56very nice to meet you. Turns out he was

1:17:57there on a terrorism charge. He was the

1:18:00imam of some mosque in New York and

1:18:03somebody was trying to sell a Stinger

1:18:04missile to somebody and he translated

1:18:07the the document, the bill of sale and

1:18:09he got wrapped up in this terrorism

1:18:11case. So, I get called into the

1:18:14lieutenant's office the next day and

1:18:16usually if you're being called into the

1:18:17lieutenant's office, you're going

1:18:18straight to solitary.

1:18:20So I hear my name, Kuryaku, Lieutenant's

1:18:23office. Immediately, always with

1:18:26immediately. And they know you can't do

1:18:28it immediately because all the doors are

1:18:29locked. So I wait for a 10-minute move

1:18:32period. The the bells ring and I go to

1:18:35the lieutenant's office. I said, "You

1:18:36wanted to see me." And they have the

1:18:39this guy's picture on a on a computer

1:18:42screen. You know this guy? I said, "I

1:18:45don't know him. I met him yesterday.

1:18:48What'd you say to him?"

1:18:49I said, I said, "Nice to meet you." What

1:18:52did he say to you? He said, "Nice to

1:18:54meet you, too." "Oh, yeah. Well, after

1:18:57you walked out, he called a number in

1:18:59Pakistan and they told him to kill you."

1:19:02I said, "Get the [ __ ] out of here. I

1:19:04could kill this guy with my thumb." "Oh,

1:19:06no, no, don't do that. We've been

1:19:08looking for a reason to to transfer him

1:19:10out." I'm like, "Okay." So, every time I

1:19:14see this guy, I give him the stink eye,

1:19:16right? And then he gives me the stink

1:19:18eye back. But then the more I thought

1:19:20about it, the more I thought that

1:19:21doesn't make any sense. He's Kurdish. He

1:19:25only speaks Arabic and Kurdish. Why

1:19:28would he call a number in Pakistan when

1:19:30they don't speak Arabic in Pakistan?

1:19:33That just didn't make sense. So I saw

1:19:35him in the yard and I went up to him and

1:19:37he got kind of scared like he was going

1:19:39to try to defend himself. And I had, you

1:19:40know, six inches and 100 pounds on this

1:19:43guy. So I said I said, "Wait a minute. I

1:19:45just want to ask you a question.

1:19:47Did the cops say anything to you about

1:19:50me? And he said, "Yeah." I said, "What

1:19:53did they say to you?" And he said, "They

1:19:55told me that after we met, you called a

1:19:57number in Washington and they told you

1:20:00to kill me." And I said, "Oh, they did,

1:20:03did they?" So, I went back to the law

1:20:04library and I looked this up and this

1:20:06was a class D felony. It was conspiring

1:20:10to commit violence in a federal

1:20:12facility. It's punishable by up to 5

1:20:15years in prison. So, I wrote it in my

1:20:18letter and I sent it to my attorney and

1:20:20I didn't give it a second thought. I

1:20:22didn't know my attorney was friends with

1:20:23Ariana Huffington who then put it on

1:20:26Huffington Post with this banner

1:20:27headline.

1:20:29Millions of hits. The next thing I know,

1:20:31Jake Tapper drives to the prison to

1:20:34interview me and it's in I mean, it's

1:20:37everywhere from from CNN to Playboy to

1:20:40The Economist and and Time Magazine.

1:20:42when Time magazine was a thing and NPR

1:20:45is calling the prison to interview me

1:20:47and the next thing I know I'm called to

1:20:49the warden's office. Well, that's in an

1:20:51offlimits part of the facility. So, the

1:20:54warden calls me in. He's like, I'm going

1:20:57to send you to solitary right now. And I

1:20:59thought, you know, is now the time to be

1:21:02to be humble before the warden or should

1:21:05I stake my claim? And I said, "Warden,

1:21:09with all due respect,

1:21:12I've gone nose tonose with al-Qaeda,

1:21:15with Hezbollah, with the Iranians, and

1:21:19you want me to be afraid of you?

1:21:22Give me some credit." He said, "Yeah,

1:21:25we'll see what you say when you've spent

1:21:27some time in solitary." I said, "I've

1:21:30lived in Yemen in Pakistan.

1:21:34I'm not afraid of your Lorettto,

1:21:35Pennsylvania solitary.

1:21:38Besides, I said, go ahead and send me to

1:21:41solitary. CNN's going to be waiting for

1:21:43you next to your car in the parking lot.

1:21:46And I just looked at him. I never went

1:21:49to solitary. Not for a minute.

1:21:53>> Wow.

1:21:55Jeez.

1:21:57So, they're just trying to set you guys

1:21:58up.

1:21:58>> Mhm. trying to get you guys at each

1:22:00other's throat and hopefully one of you

1:22:02will do something.

1:22:03>> They did it one other time. My one of my

1:22:05attorneys

1:22:06>> Do you know who orchestrated that?

1:22:09>> No.

1:22:10>> It was the warden himself.

1:22:12>> No, I don't think he was smart enough. I

1:22:14don't think he cared enough. It had to

1:22:16come from the agency.

1:22:18>> Oh my god.

1:22:19>> There was one other incident, too. Um,

1:22:23I lived in the same block of cells with

1:22:26a with an Afghan-American pharmacist who

1:22:29had an oxy problem. Nice guy. And he

1:22:33came up to me one day and he said, "Hey,

1:22:35um, the spokesman for the Taliban is

1:22:37here now and he wants to meet you." I

1:22:39said, "The spokesman for the Taliban?" I

1:22:42said, "Are you talking about that case

1:22:43in New Jersey?" And he said, "Yeah." I

1:22:46said, "I don't have anything to say to

1:22:47the spokesman of the Taliban. I don't

1:22:49want to meet him." and he said, 'Oh,

1:22:51okay. I'll tell him. So, I'm out in the

1:22:54yard one day and my attorney had warned

1:22:58me they're they're upset at the

1:23:00shortness of your sentence, so be very

1:23:04careful. They're going to try to set you

1:23:05up and add years on. So, I'm out in the

1:23:09yard and here comes this guy with a

1:23:11beard down to his waist and he's got his

1:23:13hand out to shake my hand. And I put my

1:23:16hands up so as not to touch him. And I

1:23:20look just past him and there's a guard

1:23:22in the woods outside the thing with a

1:23:25long distance camera lens and he's going

1:23:27click click click click click click

1:23:28click click click click click and I said

1:23:30don't you even think about touching me

1:23:33and he said oh come on man come on we

1:23:36have a lot in common. I said we have

1:23:38nothing in common. I spent half my

1:23:40career trying to kill people like you. I

1:23:42said get away from me. Don't touch me or

1:23:45you're going to end up unconscious on

1:23:46the ground. and he walked away and then

1:23:49he got transferred out. And I said,

1:23:51"Isn't it interesting that the spokesman

1:23:54for the Taliban was sent to our prison

1:23:56and was only here for 4 days? Isn't that

1:24:00interesting?" And then they just gave

1:24:02up.

1:24:03>> Wow.

1:24:04>> Mhm.

1:24:08This kind of stuff is so hard to

1:24:10believe.

1:24:10>> It's America. You don't want to believe

1:24:12this about America.

1:24:13>> You want to believe we're the good guys.

1:24:15>> Yeah. And you want to believe that we

1:24:16would never turn on our own like that

1:24:18over something that's just

1:24:21>> Yeah. But they do.

1:24:23>> But the crazy thing is it's like the CIA

1:24:25torture program wasn't even effective.

1:24:28>> No, that's the thing. It wasn't even

1:24:31effective. But you know what though,

1:24:33Joe? When these guys die, and they've

1:24:35started to die, in their obituaries,

1:24:39it's going to say that they were among

1:24:42the creators of the CIA's torture

1:24:44program. And so they have a vested

1:24:48interest in repeating this lie over and

1:24:51over and over again that it was the

1:24:53right thing to do.

1:24:54>> What I don't understand is wouldn't they

1:24:57want to be effective?

1:24:59>> You would think

1:25:00>> that I mean that's

1:25:01>> if they were clear-headed. Yes. That's

1:25:02the only thing that makes the least

1:25:04sense to me. Like I

1:25:08idealistically I like to think of the

1:25:10people that are in charge of the CIA of

1:25:12having a very important role in national

1:25:14security.

1:25:15>> And if you're in a position where you

1:25:17have a very important role in national

1:25:19security, it's

1:25:21it's imperative to do what is most

1:25:24effective.

1:25:25And if torture is not most effective,

1:25:29>> then don't do it. Then you would abandon

1:25:31torture and use those coercion tactics

1:25:34that the other guy was using.

1:25:36>> Yeah, that's right. And in fact, they

1:25:38ended up abandoning the torture program.

1:25:42Yeah. The Mitchell and Jessen took their

1:25:44$108 million and they retired to Florida

1:25:48and uh and then subsequent CIA directors

1:25:51following George Tennant said, "Yeah,

1:25:53you know, this didn't work. We're not

1:25:54going to do it anymore."

1:25:58God.

1:26:01I mean,

1:26:03>> I I have to laugh just cuz it's so nuts.

1:26:06What else can you do?

1:26:07>> It's beyond nuts. It's disgusting.

1:26:12And it's just amazing that they could

1:26:14get away with that.

1:26:15>> Yeah. And they have.

1:26:18Nobody's been prosecuted. Nobody.

1:26:21>> Does Trump know about all this stuff?

1:26:24>> About my stuff? Yeah.

1:26:26>> Like, have you ever tried to get a

1:26:28pardon out of him?

1:26:29>> I I've tried. Um I Let me rephrase. I am

1:26:33trying. So, I have a letter that uh that

1:26:38Ronald Reagan's former deputy attorney

1:26:40general generously wrote asking the

1:26:43president to pardon me. Tucker Carlson

1:26:45signed it. Judge Npalitano signed it.

1:26:48Doug Diesson, who's a friend of the

1:26:50president, signed it. Sid Miller, who's

1:26:52here in in Texas, um has signed it. and

1:26:55the president's former US attorney in

1:26:58Utah has signed it. And then and and I

1:27:01sent it to uh to Ed Martin, the US

1:27:03pardon attorney. And then other people

1:27:07have said, "Oh, I would have signed

1:27:08that." So we have a second letter. Dr.

1:27:12Phil um has agreed to sign it. Um

1:27:17there are a couple of other people, high

1:27:19level people. Ken Higgian, who was the

1:27:21head of the president's uh transition

1:27:23team, has signed it. Uh and there are a

1:27:25couple of others. We had really good

1:27:27news yesterday from the CIA director,

1:27:30John Ratcliffe. Um and he said that the

1:27:33CIA has no objection if the president

1:27:37were to pardon me. That that's a big

1:27:39deal.

1:27:40>> That's great news.

1:27:40>> We we have also a nice one-s sentence

1:27:43statement from Tulsi Gabbard saying that

1:27:45she has no objection to a pardon. So, I

1:27:49I don't know, man. I'm I'm hoping for

1:27:50the best. You know what they say in

1:27:52business school? Hope is not a strategy,

1:27:55but um

1:27:57I I genuinely don't know what else to

1:27:59do.

1:28:01>> Now, you you're doing all these

1:28:04conversations. You did the conversation

1:28:05with Tucker. You did his show. You're

1:28:07you're now doing my show. You've done a

1:28:09bunch of other shows. Do you have any

1:28:12concern that in exposing more of what

1:28:15has been done to you that it somehow

1:28:17limits your possibility of being

1:28:18pardoned because you're exposing so many

1:28:22people that may still be working there?

1:28:25I'm told that all of my detractors are

1:28:28either dead or retired. A friend of mine

1:28:31from the CIA um called me the other day

1:28:33to say something very funny that she was

1:28:36sitting in a uh a mandatory uh security

1:28:38briefing and she said one of the slides

1:28:41was just a picture of me and it said the

1:28:44insider threat

1:28:46>> underneath and she said everybody

1:28:48started to boo and the instructor said

1:28:51why why are you booing and one of the

1:28:54guys said he's not an insider threat

1:28:57he's a whistleblower and she said in the

1:29:00next running of the class my picture was

1:29:02removed. So I won. I won and John

1:29:07Brennan lost. That's really what it's

1:29:09come down to.

1:29:15>> It's so hard to hear these stories.

1:29:17>> It's terrible.

1:29:18>> It's so hard to imagine that

1:29:20>> our government could be so disgusting.

1:29:22>> Oh my god. I wouldn't wish this on my

1:29:24worst enemy. Truly, I wouldn't wish it

1:29:26on anybody. And you know, think of it

1:29:28this way also at the working level.

1:29:31These FBI agents don't get promoted by

1:29:34not arresting you,

1:29:35>> right?

1:29:36>> The the assistant US attorneys don't get

1:29:38promoted by not prosecuting you or by

1:29:40giving you a short sentence.

1:29:43>> Right.

1:29:43>> Right. They all see themselves as, you

1:29:46know, having the corner office at the

1:29:48law firm someday or running for Congress

1:29:50or for governor

1:29:52>> and they're going to make that career on

1:29:54your back.

1:29:55>> That's the problem, right? because

1:29:57there's a lot of cases where people are

1:29:59setting people up and you know I was

1:30:01talking to a friend of mine about this

1:30:03one case where there was a I'm sure you

1:30:05remember there was a 19-year-old um I

1:30:08think he was probably at the very least

1:30:10intellectually challenged guy and they

1:30:13tricked him into uh they radicalized

1:30:16him, gave him a fake bomb, gave him a

1:30:19cell phone. Do you know the story?

1:30:20>> Exactly what you're talking about.

1:30:21>> And then swept in and and got him. and

1:30:25he wasn't planning on doing anything.

1:30:27No,

1:30:27>> it was they talked him into doing the

1:30:29whole thing. He wasn't a bright person

1:30:32>> and they got a arrest because of that.

1:30:35So, it it adds to their career.

1:30:36>> That's it.

1:30:37>> Like when when I was having a

1:30:38conversation about this, we brought up

1:30:40the uh the governor that they were

1:30:43planning on kidnapping. Governor

1:30:45>> Whitmer.

1:30:45>> Yeah.

1:30:46>> U Michigan.

1:30:48>> Yeah. And that 12 of the 14 people were

1:30:51working with the FBI.

1:30:52>> Yeah. which is just

1:30:54>> listen there are well doumented cases

1:30:56where the FBI infiltrates a group and

1:31:00they go to a meeting and literally

1:31:02everybody in the meeting is an FBI

1:31:04agent. Like what is that? Is this a

1:31:07joke?

1:31:09>> This is what the American taxpayers

1:31:10money goes for. Do you remember have you

1:31:12heard of the Route 82 bridge plot in

1:31:14Cleveland?

1:31:15>> No.

1:31:15>> There are three morons sitting in a bar

1:31:19getting drunk.

1:31:20>> Oh, I did hear about this. The other guy

1:31:22comes in, hey, you know what we should

1:31:23do? It would be so much fun. Blow up the

1:31:25road Route 82 bridge. I have some

1:31:27explosives. And these guys are drunk.

1:31:29They're like, "Yeah, let's do Route 82

1:31:31bridge." Well, the guy with the

1:31:32explosives is an FBI informant. He set

1:31:33them all up. And they got like 20, 18,

1:31:36and 15 years in prison. It was the FBI's

1:31:39idea, not their idea. They're just

1:31:42sitting in a bar drinking.

1:31:43>> Well, how about January 6th?

1:31:44>> How about January 6th?

1:31:45>> This is the crazy I was trying to

1:31:47explain to Jim Gaffigan one day. Jim

1:31:51Gaffkin was talking about what they did

1:31:52in January 6. I go, "Do you understand

1:31:54that there were paid people that were

1:31:58working for the federal government?

1:31:59There were employees of the federal

1:32:01government that were on that lawn trying

1:32:04to convince people to go in." And he was

1:32:06very incredulous.

1:32:08He He did He did not believe it. And I

1:32:11said, "They are Asian provocators that

1:32:14are that is their job to try to get you

1:32:17to do something illegal."

1:32:18>> Exactly. so they can build their careers

1:32:20by making these arrests.

1:32:22>> Not just that, but demonize the

1:32:24president, the former president to a

1:32:27much larger extent

1:32:28>> to charge him with insurrection to say

1:32:31that he was plotting to overthrow the

1:32:32government.

1:32:34>> Yeah. And as it turns out, the only one

1:32:36who was actually plotting to overthrow

1:32:37the government was John Brennan.

1:32:41>> How was he plotting to overthrow the

1:32:42government?

1:32:42>> In 2015 and 2016 with Russia Gate.

1:32:46>> Oh, right. Right. You know, I remember

1:32:48talking to CIA friends of mine saying,

1:32:51you know, they taught us in training

1:32:53that you've got to follow the evidence.

1:32:57And there's no evidence that any of this

1:32:59happened. I worked with Christopher

1:33:01Steel on an operation in London

1:33:0425

1:33:05years ago, 26 years ago.

1:33:09There was this fundamental

1:33:11misunderstanding of what an operations

1:33:14officer was supposed to do. an

1:33:16operations officer goes out and collects

1:33:19intelligence and then sends it back and

1:33:22that's it. Then it's up to the analyst

1:33:24to decide this is great, this is crap,

1:33:27this is not true, this is a partially

1:33:29true, whatever. So he goes out there,

1:33:32talks to whatever low-level terrible

1:33:35sources he happen to have, writes all

1:33:37this nonsense down, sends it back, and

1:33:40they're like, "Look what Donald Trump

1:33:43did. He hired prostitutes to pee on

1:33:47Barack Obama's bed. No, he didn't. One

1:33:50guy made this up and Christopher Steel

1:33:54wrote it and sent it back. That doesn't

1:33:56make it fact.

1:33:57>> Wasn't it funded by the Hillary Clinton?

1:34:00>> It sure was. Yes, it was.

1:34:03>> Yeah. Which is equally wild.

1:34:06>> You made another point. I wanted to

1:34:08address these January 6 people.

1:34:11Let's say that some of them

1:34:14did do whatever, broke the window or

1:34:19went into the building unauthorized.

1:34:22Okay, then that's deserving of a smack

1:34:25on the hand and and a strongly worded

1:34:27letter and maybe a $1,000 fine. Don't do

1:34:30that again. 30 years in prison

1:34:34again. Is society really better off by

1:34:39locking all these people up and spending

1:34:42millions and millions of dollars of the

1:34:44taxpayers's money to do it?

1:34:46>> Of course not.

1:34:47>> No, of course not. But it it also just

1:34:49divides us even further.

1:34:50>> It does.

1:34:51>> And it also very much distorted the

1:34:53narrative with people like Jim Gaffigan

1:34:56who's a friend of mine who's a very

1:34:58left-leaning comedian. and he had it in

1:35:02his mind that these people went and they

1:35:04al they also have this thing where they

1:35:06say a cop was murdered,

1:35:07>> right?

1:35:07>> That's not true.

1:35:08>> I hate that

1:35:09>> they say it over and over again. That's

1:35:10not true. One cop died after the fact of

1:35:14a heart attack.

1:35:15>> It you could say maybe it was because of

1:35:18the stress of January 6th. Perhaps

1:35:22>> maybe. Maybe not.

1:35:23>> Maybe not.

1:35:24>> Maybe he shouldn't have been a cop.

1:35:26>> Yeah. I mean, if you can significant

1:35:28health problems,

1:35:28>> right? Like that's not normal to just

1:35:31die of a heart attack because of a very

1:35:32stressful day.

1:35:34>> That's but that's it. This idea that

1:35:36they killed cops that keep that

1:35:39narrative keeps coming out. It was an

1:35:41insurrection. They murdered cops. They

1:35:44broke into the White House. They were

1:35:45looking for Nancy Pelosi. They were

1:35:47going to kill her. Like, okay, are you

1:35:49sure? Because there's a lot of this

1:35:51story that's [ __ ] Now, it turns out

1:35:53at one point in time they were saying it

1:35:55was 20 FBI agents. Now the the latest

1:35:58number is 270.

1:35:59>> That's right.

1:36:00>> Yeah.

1:36:01>> That's huge.

1:36:02>> That's a lot of people. That's a lot of

1:36:04people that are encouraging people to

1:36:07break in.

1:36:08>> And there's many instances of these

1:36:10suspected people that are on camera. A

1:36:12lot of them wearing face masks. Um

1:36:14there's one of them where a guy's

1:36:16removing the broken glass from the

1:36:18window and encouraging people to go in.

1:36:20And another guy gets in his face and

1:36:22goes, "Do not do that." And then he

1:36:24pushes that guy. [ __ ] you. and the other

1:36:26guy backs off.

1:36:28>> Um,

1:36:30>> how is that not

1:36:33being investigated as a serious crime?

1:36:36>> And like that that is a serious

1:36:40that's a violation of what you're

1:36:42supposed to be doing in the first place.

1:36:44If the FBI was on that loan on that

1:36:46lawn, I would hope what they would be

1:36:49doing is informing people entering into

1:36:52this building is a felony. breaking

1:36:55these windows, getting into this

1:36:57building is you do not want to do this.

1:37:00If you want to peacefully protest, do

1:37:02that. But I'm telling you, this will

1:37:04[ __ ] with you for the rest of your life

1:37:05and most likely ruin it.

1:37:07>> Mhm.

1:37:08>> I think you're 100% right.

1:37:10>> That's what I would hope from law

1:37:12enforcement. I wouldn't hope that they

1:37:14would be trying to set people up and

1:37:16from a civil society,

1:37:19>> right?

1:37:20>> You know, do we we want to set people up

1:37:22to go to prison? We want to wreck

1:37:25families and wreck people's lives. Why

1:37:28would we want to do that?

1:37:29>> Also,

1:37:30what was there? Did they turn down the

1:37:33idea of bringing in the National Guard?

1:37:37>> You know, I I really don't understand.

1:37:40It appears Yes, it it appears that

1:37:42that's exactly what happened.

1:37:44>> Also significantly deterred people from

1:37:48committing these crimes.

1:37:49>> That's right.

1:37:50>> That they were encouraged to do. I'll

1:37:51tell you, if I was at a demonstration

1:37:53and all of a sudden the National Guard

1:37:55showed up, I'd say, "Ah, this isn't for

1:37:57me." Yeah.

1:37:58>> Yeah. And I think most people would do

1:38:00that as well.

1:38:00>> You're right.

1:38:04>> It's crazy. It's just so gross that

1:38:07>> Yeah.

1:38:08>> the our legal system gets used against

1:38:11political opponents in that way, in such

1:38:13a devious and just a sinister way. Harry

1:38:17Truman once famously said, "If you want

1:38:19a friend in Washington, get a dog."

1:38:23[Laughter]

1:38:26>> Yeah. Yeah. God, what a gross business.

1:38:30It's just sad because I also am a

1:38:32patriot and I want to think of us as

1:38:34better than that.

1:38:35>> Yeah. We're the good guys.

1:38:36>> And I don't think it's necessarily the

1:38:38fault of these individuals. I think the

1:38:41system really sucks. And I think you

1:38:45work for that system and just like all

1:38:47these Congress people that wind up

1:38:49insider trading, everybody else is doing

1:38:51it. It's the culture. You get wrapped up

1:38:53in it just like bad cops, you know, you

1:38:56get assigned to a precinct that's filled

1:38:58with corrupt cops and you have to do

1:39:00things to stay with them. They're your

1:39:01blood brothers and you're all in this

1:39:03together. And so you wind up doing some

1:39:05criminal activities that you think are

1:39:07just everybody does it. This is what we

1:39:08do.

1:39:09>> Yep.

1:39:10>> And you're an FBI agent. Well, we got to

1:39:12set this guy up. Okay, let's set him up.

1:39:14This is what we do. Hey, if he doesn't

1:39:15do it, he's not committing a crime. We

1:39:17got nothing on him. Okay.

1:39:19>> And then you just convince him to do it.

1:39:20And he's a [ __ ] idiot. And so he does

1:39:23it and he hits that cell phone and now

1:39:25you're arresting him and he's like,

1:39:26"What?"

1:39:27>> Yeah.

1:39:27>> And he's so dumb he barely knows what

1:39:30happened.

1:39:30>> Mhm. And the chances are he can't afford

1:39:34a decent attorney or he's not notorious

1:39:38enough and newsworthy enough to to get,

1:39:42you know, A-list attorneys volunteering

1:39:44pro bono, right?

1:39:45>> So, he's stuck with a a public defender

1:39:48that's going to spend eight hours on the

1:39:49case and he's going to get screwed in

1:39:51the end.

1:39:51>> And there's also the narrative that's

1:39:53very difficult to shake. So if you get

1:39:56accused of some sort of a heinous crime,

1:39:58the narrative for most people that are

1:40:01casual viewers of that story is that

1:40:03you're a terrorist. Yeah.

1:40:05>> Or you're a guy who's going to kidnap

1:40:07the governor or you're a guy who is an

1:40:09insurrectionist who's trying to

1:40:11overthrow the government on January 6th.

1:40:13And then you watch the footage that they

1:40:15wouldn't release during the trials and

1:40:17you see them getting a guided tour, the

1:40:20guided tour through like the the

1:40:22security guards are walking them into

1:40:23the Senate. Like what the [ __ ] What is

1:40:26this?

1:40:26>> Like what is and why is no one outraged?

1:40:29And why is it only one side that's

1:40:30outraged? God, if I was a a a if I was a

1:40:34a a Democrat congressman or a senator or

1:40:38if I was any sort of a politician on the

1:40:40other side, I'd be like, do you know how

1:40:42disgusting this is?

1:40:44>> This is you're you're using this to go

1:40:46after Donald Trump of all things in

1:40:49instead of just better political

1:40:52opposition.

1:40:52>> Exactly.

1:40:54And the media are to blame in part as

1:40:56well.

1:40:56>> Well, they're bought and paid for.

1:40:58>> Absolutely.

1:40:58>> I mean, 100%. The the media in this

1:41:00country is a complete and total failure.

1:41:02The the only thing that's real media in

1:41:04this country are independent

1:41:05journalists.

1:41:06>> That's right.

1:41:06>> And there's a mostly people who worked

1:41:09for large media corporations and either

1:41:12were fired or had to leave because their

1:41:14own ethics and morals and eventually

1:41:16branched out on their own and now

1:41:18they're in grave danger.

1:41:20>> Yeah. you know, and they're worried

1:41:22about being prosecuted or set up or

1:41:24killed.

1:41:26>> Yeah, it's super sketchy because that's

1:41:29we like to think of ourselves as better.

1:41:32>> We're this is the shining example for

1:41:34the rest of the world. This is the

1:41:37experiment in self-government that the

1:41:39whole world follows this lead

1:41:42and when you see that not just tolerated

1:41:45but standard.

1:41:48>> Yeah. It hurts.

1:41:50It really does. I was raised in a family

1:41:53like you were uh where I was taught that

1:41:56this was the greatest country on earth

1:41:59bar none.

1:42:00>> I still think it is.

1:42:01>> And I do too. And that's why we have to

1:42:03weed out

1:42:04>> the likes of John Brennan.

1:42:08>> God.

1:42:10But it seems like there's a lot of

1:42:11people like that are deeply rooted.

1:42:14>> Yes, indeed. And this is what you were

1:42:16talking about too that presidents come

1:42:18and go, but those people that's the real

1:42:20power. You know this this term the deep

1:42:22state. A lot of people that you know

1:42:24there's a lot of people that don't like

1:42:26to entertain any kind of conspiracies

1:42:28because they think it's like a fool's

1:42:29journey. But you you're really foolish

1:42:32if you don't believe in conspiracies.

1:42:35Yeah. Because just how many of them have

1:42:37to be proven true before you go, maybe I

1:42:41should reassess my position on these

1:42:44things?

1:42:45>> 62 years after the JFK assassination,

1:42:47we're still learning new information.

1:42:49>> Yeah.

1:42:50>> Information that's been kept from us

1:42:52>> and still being kept. There's still a

1:42:54lot of it. I mean, they were supposed to

1:42:55that was the one of the more

1:42:56disappointing things about this

1:42:57administration. Like immediately, right

1:42:59off the jump, we're supposed to get all

1:43:01the CIA files, all the JFK files. We're

1:43:04we're supposed to know exactly what

1:43:05happened to him. We know very little

1:43:09>> very little new information has been

1:43:11released that illuminates any aspects of

1:43:14that case.

1:43:15>> Yeah. It's a shame.

1:43:16>> Yeah. It's it's terrible because most

1:43:20likely at least some part of our

1:43:23government was involved in assassinating

1:43:25the president.

1:43:26>> And no one went to jail.

1:43:29>> No,

1:43:29>> nothing happened. And in fact, people

1:43:32succeeded and thrived after that.

1:43:35>> Sad truth. Yeah,

1:43:36>> that's exactly what happened.

1:43:38>> I mean, it goes back there's so many

1:43:40cases like I've had conversations with

1:43:42people that like they, you know, they

1:43:44don't want to be fools, right? So that's

1:43:46a lot of the people that don't want to

1:43:47believe in conspiracies like most of it

1:43:49can be explained away by incompetence or

1:43:52coincidence and this and that. Like

1:43:54that's not even true. It's not even most

1:43:56of it. It's some things can be explained

1:43:59away.

1:43:59>> Some things. I had a a friend at the

1:44:01agency. He was one of my first bosses

1:44:03and he had started out in uh in this

1:44:07like internship program that the agency

1:44:09had the the ma it was a you had to be

1:44:12working on a master's degree. But

1:44:14anyway, his first assignment was in the

1:44:17counterintelligence center which at the

1:44:19time was being run by James Angleton.

1:44:22And um on his first day, the secretary

1:44:25walked him around and you know this is

1:44:27what we do over here and this is what we

1:44:29do over there. And there was this entire

1:44:31wall of file folders and she said,

1:44:35"Whatever you do, don't look in those

1:44:38folders. You're not cleared for that."

1:44:41Well, he said, "Well, of course, the

1:44:43very first minute that he's left alone,

1:44:45he runs and looks in the folders." And