Joe Rogan Experience #2513 - Dean Radin

0:01Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

0:03>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

0:06>> TRAIN BY DAY, JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

0:08NIGHT. ALL DAY.

0:12>> Thank you for being here.

0:14>> Good to be here.

0:14>> I'm excited [music] to talk to you.

0:16Did you maybe manifest this conversation

0:18somehow?

0:19>> Maybe.

0:20>> [laughter]

0:22>> Um, I've seen a bunch of your talks

0:24online and um, the

0:27first of all,

0:28let's start from the beginning. Like,

0:29what is What is your background?

0:32>> Uh, I thought I'd give you a 40 45-year

0:37arc

0:37>> Okay.

0:38>> in about 3 minutes

0:39>> Perfect.

0:39>> because then there's a lot of places you

0:41can get into it. So, I started out as a

0:43musician, violin,

0:46uh, up until about halfway through

0:48college and then I realized to be a

0:50musician means you have to be an athlete

0:53because you're making your living with

0:54your body.

0:55No one told me that up through until I

0:59finally decided that I don't think I

1:00want to make my living with my body

1:02because I've never been very strong and

1:04more importantly, you also need to have

1:05a lot of stamina

1:07and I didn't have that.

1:08>> And you weren't interested in gaining

1:09it?

1:10>> I I couldn't. I I have a genetic

1:13mutation that that created uh,

1:17like most people when they exercise, you

1:19feel really good afterwards. I feel

1:21really exhausted and I never understood

1:23why until many years later I realized

1:25that I have something called Gilbert's

1:27Syndrome, which is a mutation of a liver

1:30enzyme

1:31and you have no recovery time.

1:34>> Woah.

1:35>> Yeah. So,

1:36>> Is there anything they can do for that?

1:38>> Other than something like genetic

1:40engineering, which I've never heard

1:41anybody try yet, the answer is no.

1:44>> I've never heard of that condition

1:45before, I don't think.

1:46>> Yeah. It's uh, there's some missing

1:48enzymes and more importantly, the

1:50bilirubin,

1:51which is unconjugated bilirubin,

1:54you have way too too of it. So, there's

1:56an upside and a downside. The downside

1:58is that there you you can't recover from

2:00exercise quickly. And so, there's a lot

2:02of fatigue that happens. The upside is

2:05that unconjugated bilirubin is an

2:08antioxidant.

2:09It's one of the most natural

2:12antioxidant. So, my cardiovascular

2:14system is like a 20-year-old.

2:16>> Oh.

2:18So, you got your pros and your cons with

2:19this.

2:20>> Yeah.

2:21>> Have you ever tried exercising in very

2:23small doses, like throughout the day?

2:27>> Well, I I walk every day. So, that's

2:29that's my primary exercise.

2:31>> That's always great exercise.

2:32>> Yeah. If I walk too fast, too hard,

2:35I will feel it for the next three or

2:37four days.

2:38>> Wow.

2:39Uh still too fast, too hard, too long?

2:42>> Yeah.

2:43>> So, what if you do like two push-ups,

2:45and then just do two push-ups like 4

2:47hours later, and then two push-ups like

2:494 hours later?

2:50>> can do that. Yeah.

2:51>> Yeah.

2:51>> I can do seven push-ups.

2:53>> Yeah, maybe that's the move. Maybe the

2:55move is just make yourself do things

2:57very lightly throughout the day, just to

2:59keep your bone mass and all that

3:02>> Yeah.

3:02>> good stuff that we lose when we get

3:04older.

3:06>> Yeah.

3:07>> You know, but it sounds like there's a

3:08pro. The cardiovascular benefit is

3:10pretty sweet.

3:11>> Yeah. So, when you get to a certain age,

3:13your your doctor says, "Uh let's take a

3:16uh cardiac calcium scan and see what

3:20what are your arteries doing?" And the

3:21the range is from zero, so they don't

3:23see anything in there, up to 100 where

3:25you're basically about to die.

3:28So, I my doctor did said does do that

3:30because your cholesterol's like off uh

3:33it's way too high.

3:35And I have zero.

3:37>> Oh, wow.

3:38>> And say, "Well, how how could you have

3:39zero?" Cuz I'm 74. I should not be zero,

3:43but I do. And it's because of this.

3:45>> really good for 74.

3:46>> Thank you.

3:47>> You do. You You look like maybe 15, 20

3:50years younger than you're supposed to

3:52look.

3:53>> Yeah. So, that's the other advantage of

3:55this particular mutation is longevity.

3:58>> Damn, son.

3:59Well, that's good. There's a positive to

4:01it. So, violinists Can I ask you this,

4:04totally unrelated. What is the

4:06difference between violin and a fiddle?

4:09>> Well, a violin is a career track towards

4:12concert violinist. So, it it classical

4:14music.

4:15>> So, it's how you play it?

4:16>> It's partially how you play it, but it's

4:19mostly about the nature of the music

4:20that you're playing.

4:22>> So, is it just how it's referred in

4:24different cultures? Like in southern

4:26music, it would be a fiddle.

4:27>> It's also style. It's style and it's

4:30also

4:31the intonation. Like if you're if you

4:34did like I did, I had transitioned from

4:36classical violin when I knew I wasn't

4:38going to do that as a career

4:40into bluegrass fiddle and banjo.

4:42>> Oh.

4:43>> So, I actually ended up playing 25

4:45years, the last 5 years being bluegrass.

4:48And so, there

4:49I actually had to learn not to play that

4:52well.

4:53Like you have to you have

4:55It sounds better for bluegrass if you're

4:57a little bit off tune and you're not

4:59you're not holding it right and it's

5:01>> authentic.

5:01>> Yes.

5:02>> Scratchy, something to it.

5:04>> in fact, in graduate school, I

5:07I was in the competition for the

5:09Illinois State Fiddler Contest.

5:12And so, I was probably 25 or something

5:14at the time.

5:16Uh and Alison Krauss was like a like a

5:18teenager and she was in the same

5:20competition and I lost miserably and she

5:24was incredible even at that time.

5:26>> Who is she?

5:27>> Alison Krauss?

5:28>> I don't know who she is.

5:30Sorry.

5:31>> She She is a

5:32>> who she is, Jamie?

5:33>> Yeah.

5:33>> Yeah, she's a very very well-known

5:36somewhere between country singer, but

5:39she plays the violin and the fiddle and

5:41has a fantastic voice.

5:42>> of the loop. I'm sorry.

5:44>> Yeah. If If heard if you heard one of

5:46her songs, I'm sure you would know it.

5:47>> Yeah, if you

5:48made me name a fiddler, I would say

5:52Well,

5:54The Devil Went Down to Georgia was the

5:55first time like America really

5:57understood of like popular culture like

6:00the fiddle got introduced. Is that fair

6:02to say?

6:03>> Yeah. Yeah.

6:03>> Like that for a lot of people, that

6:05song, the Charlie Daniels Jr. song,

6:08that's that's the fiddle.

6:10>> Yeah, that's like

6:11>> Is that good?

6:12>> Well, yeah, it was pretty good. It's a

6:14little bit like fiddle on steroids, but

6:16yeah.

6:17>> But I mean like as a fiddler, do you

6:19hear that or is it like only for the

6:21unwashed masses that think that's good?

6:23>> [clears throat]

6:23>> it's good good fiddling, yeah.

6:26Yeah, it's fiddling around.

6:27>> It's a beautiful instrument. Sorry to

6:29for the side track. So, um

6:31>> Okay, so I did that for for 20 years or

6:34so and then in the middle of college I

6:36decided I think I want to get a job

6:39where I could use my mind instead of my

6:40body. So, I switched into electrical

6:43engineering.

6:44Uh why? Because I like to take stuff

6:46apart and I I used to make things in

6:48high school.

6:49Uh

6:50So, then I didn't know what I wanted to

6:52do after I got my degree, so I went on

6:54to get a master's in electrical

6:55engineering.

6:56And then I didn't want to be an

6:57electrical engineer anymore, so I got a

6:59PhD in experimental psychology.

7:02And so it it sounds like like flipping

7:04back and forth between lots of different

7:06things and it kind of is.

7:08But you'll see that my career is a

7:10little bit like a game show and that uh

7:13you're presented with this is what you

7:15could do like forever.

7:17Or you can choose door number two.

7:20And almost always chose door number two

7:22because like I I would do this for a

7:24while and say I could sort of understand

7:25that now. I want to do something

7:27different.

7:28Door number two.

7:30So, in the as a senior in college, uh I

7:34learned about this place called the

7:35Institute of Noetic Sciences,

7:37which was started by Apollo 14 astronaut

7:40Edgar Mitchell, who was the sixth man on

7:42the moon

7:43and on the way back to the earth he had

7:45a mystical experience.

7:47And so today a lot of people who go into

7:49space talk about the overview effect and

7:52he was one of the first to talk about it

7:54openly even though all of the other

7:55astronauts had it.

7:58It expresses itself in different ways.

8:00So people generally will turn from

8:02whatever they were, it's a

8:04transformative experience and they

8:06become different.

8:07And so

8:09in his way of expressing that after the

8:11mystical experience and thinking what in

8:13the world is that cuz he felt one with

8:15the universe literally

8:17he decided to create this institute that

8:20would study

8:21what he had been studying for outer

8:23space but for an inner space

8:25to explore inner space.

8:27So I remember in college reading about

8:29this new institute and their motto was

8:31uh

8:32the exploring the frontiers of

8:34consciousness.

8:36And I thought

8:37that sounds like something I want to do.

8:40But there wasn't any place to do that

8:42other than this one institute. So I

8:45always had in the back of my mind

8:47that that's that's where I want to end

8:48up.

8:49>> What does that term noetic I know I've

8:50heard it before but I I never looked it

8:52up.

8:52>> Noetic.

8:54So noetic is

8:56uh a feeling of intuition except that it

8:59carries a sense of certainty that the

9:01intuition is correct.

9:03>> Hmm.

9:03>> So intuition is knowing something

9:05without knowing how you know it. It just

9:07sort of arrives.

9:09But it's knowing with with certainty and

9:11more often than not the certainty is

9:13correct.

9:14So people talk about downloads in

9:16meditation and other places, that's what

9:18that is.

9:19>> This is a subject that

9:22up until I would say last couple decades

9:26was pretty openly dismissed by rational

9:29people.

9:30Right? There's there's almost like um

9:33a desire to dismiss it. Like a desire to

9:36define the world in much clearer terms

9:39where it's maybe ego-driven, you're in

9:42control of your own destiny, and then

9:44there's certain factors that are out of

9:45your control, and just this is how it

9:46is, and this is life, deal with it. And

9:49all this mystical, woo-woo magic

9:51that people have been talking

9:53about for some strange reason for

9:54thousands of years

9:56that we just dismiss, and we dismiss it

9:59um under the narrative of science. We're

10:02talking about science. We're science

10:03people. We want data.

10:05But there is data. That's what's weird.

10:07And if you're willing to look a little

10:09preposterous, which I certainly am,

10:12uh I think it's a good thing to do every

10:13now and then.

10:15Take a chance and try to figure

10:18out if the world is exactly constructed

10:22the way you've been told. Because it

10:24might not be. There might be some

10:25weirdness to it all. And it seems like

10:27we all agree

10:29We all agree there is some weirdness.

10:31You could chalk it off to coincidence

10:33when you think about a person and you

10:35haven't thought about them forever, and

10:36all of a sudden they call you. You

10:37There's There's some weirdness in the

10:39world.

10:41There's some weirdness in the world like

10:42knowing not to do something, and then

10:43something happens.

10:46There's some weirdness in knowing

10:47something's going to happen, and you

10:48ignore that feeling, and then something

10:50terrible happens. You're like, "Fuck, I

10:52knew I shouldn't have gone there."

10:54There's There's weirdness in the world.

10:56And it's not necessarily just pattern

10:59recognition and

11:01under-

11:04them before. There's something to that,

11:06too. That's part of it, too.

11:08But there's also something else. There's

11:09some weird connection that people have.

11:11There's a thing that you when you know

11:13someone's mad at you, and they don't say

11:14anything, you're like, "What is this

11:15weird energy I'm getting off

11:16this guy?" There's some stuff we're

11:19we're experiencing in the world that you

11:21can't put on a scale. You can't put a

11:23tape measure to it. You know, you can't

11:26you can't measure its density, but it's

11:28there. There's something. And we have a

11:30very limited amount of senses in terms

11:33of our ability to see, feel, touch,

11:35smell.

11:36It's not enough.

11:38It's probably some other stuff out there

11:39that we don't have the tools to measure,

11:41but it impacts us.

11:42>> But we do have the tools to measure.

11:44So that's what attracted me to the rest

11:47of my career.

11:48Because exactly for the same reason you

11:50just said that people have experiences,

11:53often times they feel pretty strange,

11:55and so they start looking for well what

11:57what is that? So if you go to a like a

12:00conventional science spokesperson, they

12:02will echo back exactly what you're

12:04saying. It's coincidence, it's a it's

12:06faulty of memory, all of that stuff.

12:09But I learned

12:10early on even in college that there is a

12:13branch of science that has studied these

12:16things.

12:17I mean it's been going on since the late

12:181800s that the scientists have been

12:20interested in these kinds of phenomena.

12:22And science is really really good at

12:24taking even strange subjective

12:27experiences and figuring out is that a

12:29coincidence or is that what what is

12:31that? Is it real?

12:33That attracted me.

12:35So and it it partially came out of

12:37reading a lot of science fiction.

12:39So you know science fiction is saturated

12:41with these kinds of stories where the

12:42the element of the story is a revolving

12:45around some kind of psychic or noetic

12:46thing.

12:47>> The force.

12:48>> Yeah.

12:49>> Classically.

12:49>> The force in

12:51in Dune the series, Frank Herbert's Dune

12:54series, the whole thing about spice.

12:56Why did they have to take spice? Because

12:58that's the only way you can navigate

13:00when you're you're jumping through

13:01wormholes. Like you needed to know what

13:03you're about to expect on the other

13:05side.

13:06It just saturates novels and science

13:08fiction. It's there.

13:10And generally if if you have a topic

13:12that people are paying attention to like

13:15that and are very popular, it's because

13:17something is resonating.

13:19Like if if if it was so strange that

13:21nobody even had a way of thinking about

13:23it, it it wouldn't be popular.

13:26But it is It's perennially popular. So,

13:30so I took the science fiction interest

13:32and as a even younger kid about fairy

13:34tales, which is saturated with these

13:35things, too,

13:36and I thought, well, that I wonder if

13:38that's real.

13:40But then you kind of get shuttled into a

13:41scientific career and one thing that

13:44happens for fledgling engineers and

13:46scientists and for a lot of other

13:48academics is they're being taught a set

13:50of assumptions about the way that the

13:52world works

13:54called materialism or physicalism.

13:57And the thing is you're not taught that

13:58that is a set of assumptions. You take

14:00it for granted after a while cuz after

14:02you go through college for 20 plus years

14:05and no one ever mentions

14:07that we're working under a set of

14:08assumptions, a materialism, and no one

14:11ever talks about the philosophy of

14:13science, which is all about studying the

14:16assumptions and are they correct?

14:19Once you do start studying the

14:20philosophy of science, you find out that

14:22there's lots of different ways of

14:23understanding reality.

14:25And so there's the whole materialistic

14:27side, which is really, really good

14:29at explaining aspects of the physical

14:31world. It It gives us these kinds of

14:33technologies.

14:35But it doesn't explain subjective

14:36experience at all.

14:39And so that's that's like the existing

14:41number one mystery in science today

14:44because you have to challenge the idea

14:47that materialism is all there is.

14:49And so people have weird experiences,

14:52they're talking about a more

14:53comprehensive way of understanding

14:54reality. That's what's going on. And so

14:57that's that's why I end up writing a

14:58book like this.

15:00So, the magic here is not stage magic.

15:02It's It's the real magic, which we don't

15:05have a name for yet.

15:07>> When they first started studying this in

15:08the 1800s, what were they specifically

15:10trying to isolate or figure out?

15:14>> Well, just like today, people would see

15:15apparitions, they would have the sense

15:17that there were telepathic connections

15:19between people,

15:20uh they'd did precognitions, and that

15:22was the beginning of figuring out ways

15:25of using experimental science to be able

15:27to study these things under controlled

15:30conditions.

15:31And And the word control is important

15:33because it means you exclude coincidence

15:36by the design, and you exclude leakage

15:38of information, you exclude all kinds of

15:40things. So, the only thing left over is

15:43if that telepathic thing was real,

15:46then we'd be able to see it in the lab.

15:48And the short story is, yeah. So, we're

15:50now 150 years past that, and we have

15:53very, very strong evidence that

15:55telepathy does exist.

15:57>> So, what was the first evidence that

15:59they

16:00they were able to get out of these

16:02initial experiments?

16:04>> They used to call it thought

16:05transference. And so, the methods they

16:07were using then would not pass muster

16:09today.

16:10They They would have like two kids who

16:12say we can we can

16:14we can do telepathic transfer between

16:16us.

16:16And then many times they would find that

16:18the kids were using some kind of signal.

16:20And so, that that wouldn't work today.

16:23Today, people have to be strictly

16:24isolated.

16:26Uh, neither can know what the target is

16:28that they're trying to transfer to the

16:29other person.

16:31And we do lots and lots of replications

16:32with lots of people.

16:34And so, that that then forms a body of

16:37evidence where it becomes extremely

16:39difficult to think of what the flaw

16:41might be. And in fact, if you ask

16:43skeptics about it who know the

16:44literature,

16:45their usual response now is either

16:48uh, there's no plausible flaw that they

16:51can identify because a lot of time has

16:53been spent to figure out what might be a

16:55flaw.

16:56And the second response, which is more

16:58recent now, is we're not even going to

17:00look at the evidence because we know

17:01it's impossible.

17:03Which is no longer a scientific

17:04argument, but that's that's the

17:06approach. We're not going to look at the

17:07data.

17:08>> That's silly.

17:08>> Yeah.

17:09>> Well, it's really silly when you

17:10consider the intelligence agencies have

17:12spent an enormous amount of money and a

17:14considerable amount of time studying

17:16remote viewing.

17:17Like, why?

17:19Why would they invest that much time in

17:21nonsense? Why would they invest that

17:23much time in something where there's no

17:25evidence whatsoever and they've never

17:26achieved positive results? That doesn't

17:29seem to be correct.

17:30>> No.

17:30>> If you just If you listen to the stories

17:32of the guys like Hal Puthoff and all

17:34these different people that have been

17:35involved in these

17:36remote viewing experiments, they had

17:38actionable data that they they they

17:41derived specifically from remote

17:44viewing. I don't understand it. I can't

17:46I've never done it. I've never attempted

17:48it. I don't know if I can do it. I did

17:50it once. Uh we we had an experiment on a

17:53television show that I did where we had

17:55this guy who claimed to be a remote

17:56viewer remote view this area and it was

17:59he was off, but it was also under duress

18:02with cameras. Like, is that the state of

18:04mind that you want to be in when you're

18:06trying to remote view? No, that's not

18:08ideal at all. And that is a factor, a

18:10major factor in

18:13whether or not you can understand

18:15intuition. Is where where What is your

18:17state of mind? Are you in a place of

18:19complete anxiety and fear or are you

18:21totally relaxed and focused on what

18:23you're doing? Is there any distractions?

18:25Is there a jackhammer nearby? Is there a

18:27dog barking? What Is there something

18:29that could interrupt this

18:31state of mind that you're trying to

18:32achieve? Because

18:33there's different states of mind. We

18:36know this. We can measure this. We can

18:38measure the brain waves. We can we can

18:39we understand that the state of mind

18:42it's not a static thing like a toaster.

18:44You know, it's not on or off. There's a

18:46bunch of different going on in your

18:48brain in your mind at any given time.

18:51And so, the idea that remote viewing,

18:54which is some very bizarre connection

18:57that some people have to reality that's

19:00nowhere near local. They can describe

19:03things in detail, talk about submarines

19:05that are being constructed in the in

19:07Soviet Union. Like, it's there's weird

19:10to that. And if you dis- if you

19:12just dismiss that, you're being a fool.

19:15There's something there.

19:17And the only way anybody figures out

19:20there's something there is if you study

19:21it. If actually intelligent people are

19:23willing to look a little foolish and

19:26spend some time studying it. This

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20:18for podcast listeners.

20:21>> Right. So, that brings us to my next

20:23job.

20:24So, after I got my my doctorate, I

20:26started working at Bell Laboratories.

20:28>> Ooh.

20:28>> So, it was the biggest laboratory in the

20:31world at the time. It was still the Bell

20:32System.

20:34And because I was interested in these

20:35kinds of things, for some of my time at

20:38Bell Labs, I started doing little

20:40psychic experiments

20:42involving mind-matter interaction and

20:44also involving precognition.

20:46So,

20:48there's there's a an ongoing link here

20:50that goes back to the Institute of

20:51Noetic Sciences in a strange way.

20:54Edgar Mitchell was gave the first money

20:57to SRI International, which is where Hal

20:59Puthoff and Russell Targ was, to do

21:02remote viewing studies.

21:03He also brought Uri Geller to the United

21:06States and he brought the SRI and a

21:08bunch of other places including Bell

21:10Labs.

21:11So when I was working at the labs, I

21:12knew that there had been people who had

21:14seen some of the stuff that Geller did.

21:17And I was doing these little psychic

21:18things. So I asked for permission to be

21:21able to present some of the work I was

21:23doing at a annual conference of the

21:25Parapsychological Association.

21:27Which is an affiliate of the largest

21:29scientific organization in the United

21:31States.

21:32The American Association for the

21:34Advancement of Science.

21:35So many people don't know that the

21:37Parapsychological Association is one of

21:39the 200 some affiliates of the AAAS. So

21:43legitimate scientific organization. So I

21:46did this precognition test. I asked for

21:47permission and I got permission not only

21:50to give my presentation at the

21:52conference but to use the Bell Labs

21:54imprimatur.

21:56So I was giving this as some guy from

21:58Bell Labs.

21:59Talking to this audience.

22:02Unbeknownst to me.

22:04There were a few people in the audience

22:05who came up afterwards and one of them

22:07said,

22:08"Uh if there was an opening would be

22:10you'd be interested in joining the

22:11Stargate program."

22:13>> Whoa.

22:14>> And so that was an offer I couldn't

22:15refuse. That's one of these cases of you

22:18have this door or you have that door.

22:20Well that door looked really interesting

22:21because

22:22it was known at the time that there were

22:24people at SRI doing this sort of thing

22:26but the classified portions were a

22:28rumor.

22:29Like nobody knew what was really going

22:31on.

22:31>> Right.

22:32>> So I took a leave of absence.

22:34>> That must have been exciting.

22:35>> Yeah.

22:36>> You get that offer? Stargate?

22:38>> Yeah, are you kidding?

22:39>> Holy

22:41>> So I took a leave of absence for 1 year

22:43from Bell Labs.

22:44And so I went to SRI International.

22:48Hal Puthoff was my boss and then Ed May

22:51when Hal left in 1985 Ed May took over.

22:54He's may not be a name that is known as

22:57well but he was the director for 10

22:59years.

23:00Uh and so I worked on that project and

23:02it took a long time to get the

23:04clearances because, first of all, I

23:07didn't know anything about

23:08classification or anything, but I

23:10figured, well, maybe it's just secret.

23:13No, it's just top secret. No, it's top

23:16secret SCI. No, it's top secret SCI

23:19special access program, which means

23:22there's literally a book that you have

23:24to sign, and you can see all the other

23:26people who have signed that book.

23:28Special access means

23:30even if you have a top secret clearance,

23:32you cannot know about this place.

23:34You cannot know about the code word. You

23:36can't The code word was classified.

23:39So,

23:40I mean, it would seems kind of odd

23:41because if you have a code word, it's

23:43not saying anything, but nevertheless,

23:45that's how it worked.

23:47>> Wow.

23:47>> So, we were the research side of people

23:50who talk about Stargate, mostly they're

23:52talking about the military side, the

23:54operational side. Well, we knew what

23:56they were doing, but our mission was

23:58different. Our mission was figure out

24:01those questions that you're asking. How

24:02does this stuff work? Like, is it real?

24:05Yes.

24:06Some people are very talented. Uh, what

24:09are the limits of it? Can you block it?

24:11Can you shield it? Can you do

24:12camouflage?

24:14And one of the main areas was

24:17what's the difference between someone

24:18like Joe McMoneagle who was a superstar

24:21in this area?

24:22Why is he any different than anybody

24:23else?

24:24Because, like when I first met the Ingo

24:27Swann and Joe and a bunch of other

24:29people,

24:30they were the kind of they were so

24:31different than my stereotype of Madame

24:33Zodiac that that they like I say, you

24:36got to be kidding. These people are

24:38remote viewers?

24:39They're just like guys and gals.

24:43And so every method was used to try to

24:45figure out is it psychological

24:47difference? Is it physiological? Is it

24:48medical? What what is it? And the answer

24:50was we couldn't find anything.

24:53Now, there may be some background about

24:55the people themselves, but in terms of

24:58finding out something that we could use

25:00to select because the the army and

25:03others were interested in getting lots

25:05of other people who would be talented,

25:07too.

25:07>> So, there's no consistent factors?

25:09>> No, there wasn't wasn't anything.

25:11>> Wow.

25:12>> So,

25:13>> that seems crazy.

25:14>> Except maybe talent. Two things, talent

25:17and openness.

25:18So, talent is natural talent. It's it it

25:21partially based on genetics.

25:23And openness is a psychological trait

25:25where you're simply open to experience.

25:27So, people who tend to be

25:29to have like a certain way of thinking

25:31about things and are not not open to

25:33other stuff,

25:34they block it. They could block it real

25:36good.

25:37People who are open to experience and

25:39willing to try new things, they in

25:41general tend to do better.

25:43So,

25:44that brings us to talent, which I'll get

25:46to a little bit later, especially about

25:48the genetics of talent.

25:51So, we didn't have the genetic tools at

25:52the time.

25:54Now we do have the genetic tools, and so

25:56we've done a couple of studies looking

25:58for what we call the psi gene.

26:00>> [clears throat]

26:01>> So, we

26:02we think we're on to something.

26:03Okay, so so I work on Stargate for a

26:06year, uh the I go back to Bell Labs and

26:09almost immediately get another

26:11invitation. It's one of these doors open

26:13again. How would you like to go to

26:14Princeton?

26:16Because at Princeton at the time was the

26:17Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research

26:20Laboratory.

26:21It was the a lab doing psi research that

26:24was headed by the dean of the school of

26:26engineering.

26:27And so that lab went almost for 30 years

26:30doing mind-matter interaction, doing

26:32remote viewing, and a bunch of other

26:33stuff.

26:34At Princeton,

26:35so my position was in the psych

26:38department cuz that's where I had my

26:39PhD,

26:40but to lead a program among many

26:44departments, one of which was the PEAR

26:46lab.

26:47And the idea was

26:49uh in order to have any chance of

26:51beginning to understand this stuff, you

26:52need to pull in every discipline because

26:55it's way too big. It's It's too

26:57complicated for a single discipline.

27:00So, we had the philosophy department and

27:02the psychology department and civil

27:05engineering and the parallel lab and a

27:07bunch of other departments. My job was

27:09sort of corral it together to create

27:12multi-disciplinary

27:13research projects.

27:15And I was told on day one, that's

27:16impossible. You This is a job you cannot

27:19do.

27:20Well, why? I mean, we had the money for

27:22it.

27:23And the answer is that in the academic

27:25world, you succeed within silos.

27:28You know an enormous amount about a very

27:31particular kind of topic.

27:33Like even in the psych department there,

27:35you have cognitive psychologists,

27:36perceptual psychologists, social

27:38psychologists, and on and on and on.

27:40They don't even talk to each other

27:43because it's outside of your discipline,

27:44outside the little silo. My job was to

27:47sort of mash it together and it was

27:50ridiculously complicated.

27:52>> Was there resistance?

27:54>> Oh my god.

27:56Resistance is not quite strong enough.

27:58>> [laughter]

27:58>> It's like uh each one of the departments

28:01was getting money from this big grant

28:02that we had, so they were willing to

28:03play the game, but when it actually came

28:05down to doing some kind of a

28:07cross-filtering,

28:08well, no.

28:10>> Why didn't they want to collaborate?

28:13>> Because everything of value in the

28:15academic world is in your silo.

28:18And so, if you're trying to work across

28:19silos, again, even within the same

28:21department,

28:23social psychology and perceptual

28:24psychology might not even talk to each

28:26other. And they had their offices that

28:28were right next to each other.

28:30But that's simply the way that

28:31>> It's insane.

28:31>> Yeah, but it also it sort of makes sense

28:33when you think about it. To become an

28:35expert in something

28:37takes 20 years from from the university

28:39and then the rest of your academic

28:41career just to keep up with it.

28:43So, it kind of makes sense that you

28:45don't want to start

28:46turning your attention off to something

28:47else because you're not in that

28:49department anymore.

28:50So, it it's a problem and it's always

28:52been there. It's not getting any better,

28:55either.

28:55>> Well, it seems like there should be a

28:56way to fix that. The ultimate goal

28:58should be whatever we're all working on

29:01collectively should benefit mankind. And

29:03if you're in the

29:05psychology industry, which you are if

29:07you're teaching psychology, if you're

29:09working on psychology, you should want

29:11to get

29:12involved in this. The The fact they're

29:13all siloed off like that seems insane.

29:16>> Yeah, so the the approach that's

29:17sometimes taken in the academic world is

29:18to create a center. Center for the study

29:21of fill in the blank.

29:23That brings in people from different

29:24disciplines and then they kind of force

29:25together.

29:26>> But these people from different

29:28disciplines probably already working on

29:30important stuff to them and this is

29:31taking away from their time.

29:33>> It It could be except that

29:36depending on the nature of the work, it

29:38may be something that requires another

29:40discipline. So, you might have somebody

29:41in computer science who's working on

29:43that and then you have somebody in

29:44psychology who's interested in the human

29:46side, like how do you connect the

29:48computer and the people?

29:49>> Mhm.

29:50>> Well, there's a subdiscipline called

29:51human factors. That's where I was

29:53working in Bell Labs cuz I had

29:55engineering and psychology. So, you kind

29:57of mash those two together and then you

29:59could actually learn some new stuff

30:00that's of value to both.

30:02And also you That's how you create new

30:03disciplines. That's how the discipline

30:05of neuroscience began.

30:07So, you go back now it's more like 60 to

30:1070 years ago,

30:11somebody noticed that you have all these

30:13people in biology and all these people

30:15looking at cells and all people looking

30:17at at things having to do

30:20with with the nervous system, they were

30:22all different disciplines.

30:24So, a a large foundation came along and

30:27said, "I think we need to create a

30:29discipline of the neurosciences."

30:32And they threw enough money at it to

30:34bring people together and that formed

30:35the new discipline.

30:37So, I work in the area of consciousness

30:39studies, which is only now starting to

30:42become its own discipline.

30:44>> Mhm.

30:45>> Because before that, it was maybe a few

30:46philosophers interested in it, and

30:48anesthesiologists, and that's it.

30:51But, it's changing.

30:52>> So, when you were at Princeton, what

30:53what specifically did How did you start

30:55it? Like, what what specifically were

30:57you working on initially?

30:59>> Well, besides trying to get people to

31:01talk to each other, which was

31:02frustrating.

31:04>> task.

31:04>> Yeah. So, one of the things I did was

31:06meta-analysis. So, this is a way

31:09of taking the results of individual

31:11experiments that are similar to each

31:13other, like telepathy experiments,

31:16and putting them all together with a

31:17statistical method to see whether

31:20independent people are able to replicate

31:22the same thing.

31:23It's called meta-analysis. Meta meaning

31:25it's like an analysis of analyses.

31:28And so, it answers two questions. One

31:30is, if this is really real in a

31:32scientific sense, then other independent

31:35people ought to be able to do the same

31:36experiment and get the same result.

31:38So, that's one part. The other part is,

31:40if you do have a lot of people doing the

31:42same experiment, then what is the

31:44overall result? It's like one gigantic

31:46experiment now.

31:48So, I I did a number of meta-analyses,

31:51and then I was writing a book on it that

31:53nobody wanted to buy, so it just sat

31:54there.

31:56Uh and then I was doing experiments on

31:58precognition as as part of my job. And

32:01because of my engineering background, I

32:03was using

32:04the ver- the latest version of machine

32:06learning at the time, which was neural

32:08networks, and applying it to the data

32:10from the PEAR lab to see if uh you know,

32:14when you do an experiment involving

32:15mind-matter interaction, you usually use

32:18a random number generator, and you ask

32:20somebody this thing is You tell them,

32:22"This is going to push out a whole bunch

32:23of bits, random bits, and I want you to

32:26make more one bits than zero bits.

32:28That's your task." So, they press a

32:29button, and they get some kind of

32:31result.

32:32And now, make more zero bits. And now,

32:34don't do anything. So, this is a uh

32:36three different kinds of tasks in one

32:39session.

32:40And so, what what they were finding was

32:41that in general, if you run a lot of

32:44people in this kind of task, yes, their

32:46intention makes the bits go in the

32:48direction that you want. So, aim high,

32:51goes up, aim low, goes down, so on.

32:54So,

32:56the question then is

32:57not everybody can do that. Some people

33:01get the opposite result. Some Some

33:03people get really good at making it go

33:05high, but they can't make it go low. So,

33:07the idea came about there's a something

33:09like a signature

33:11that was from each person. People had a

33:14way of interacting with the machine that

33:16made it do certain things that was

33:18unique to them, but overall, it worked

33:20out. So, I started using neural networks

33:22to see if I could train a neural network

33:25to tell who was doing the task based on

33:29how the random bits were working.

33:31And it turns out you can.

33:33So, when I left Princeton, because it

33:36was getting way too frustrating, I took

33:38that idea

33:39>> to get people to work together.

33:40>> Trying to to do this multi-disciplinary

33:44teams. It Yeah, and as I told you, the

33:46first day I was there for the job, I was

33:48told,

33:49"By the way, you have you have an

33:50impossible job. It's necessary though,

33:53because this was part of the grant.

33:55What you're doing is part of the grant.

33:57So, you have to do it anyway." And I I

33:59did it for 3 years, and then I decided I

34:01I didn't want to do that anymore.

34:04But so, I went back to to industry, but

34:06I specifically told the people I was

34:08interviewing with, "I want to pursue

34:10this. Like, this is the beginning of a

34:12technology where that will have a

34:14machine identify who you are and your

34:17intention,

34:18kind of like Neuralink, except there's

34:20no connection. There's nothing going in

34:22the brain. It's purely intention."

34:25So, I did end up working for a company

34:27outside of Washington, D.C.,

34:29where part of my work was doing exactly

34:31that. We were using more advanced neural

34:33networks with random number generators

34:36and got to the point where

34:38uh we're about to set a patent for this

34:41device cuz it worked.

34:43And the head of the organization at the

34:45time was a retired general who had a

34:47buddy who was an admiral

34:49and he said that the navy's interested

34:51in this.

34:52For kind of for obvious reasons, they

34:54want ways of communicating with

34:55submarines.

34:58So,

34:59uh at that point, we're like right on

35:01the edge of doing that and we get bought

35:03by another company.

35:04And the new company said, "You're not

35:06going to work on that anymore."

35:08So, the wheels internally started think

35:10it was like golden handcuffs. A lot of

35:12money, but let's I mean it's a very good

35:14position, but I didn't really want to do

35:16that anymore.

35:17>> Did they have a re- Was it a profitable

35:20issue?

35:21>> The vice president in charge of the lab

35:23did not believe that it was possible.

35:25>> Oh, god.

35:26>> didn't look at the data.

35:28>> Of course.

35:28>> So, he said, "No, we're not going to do

35:30that."

35:30>> He doesn't want to be silly.

35:31>> Yeah.

35:32So, I I mean it's so frustrating. You

35:34have the It worked. We have a thing

35:36here. It's working.

35:37No, he just he didn't want to do it.

35:39>> Oh, that's so frustrating.

35:40>> Yeah. So, few years goes by. I kept

35:43doing all this stuff on the side now

35:45outside of work cuz it was just too

35:48interesting to drop.

35:50Uh

35:51my There was a recession. This was 1992.

35:53There were a recession.

35:55Uh

35:56part of my department was laid off

35:58including myself.

35:59So,

36:00unbeknownst to most people at the time

36:02that the Stargate program

36:05uh and by the way, it wasn't called

36:07Stargate then. There's a lot of code

36:09words involved, but it's just known as

36:11Stargate, so we'll use that.

36:13That program was giving classified

36:15contracts to other people

36:18around the world including at the

36:20University of Edinburgh

36:22in Scotland.

36:23So, we had a colleague at the University

36:25of Edinburgh who was creating an

36:26automated Ganzfeld testing system. This

36:28is a telepathy system where you press a

36:31button and the people are involved and

36:33everything is automated. It's kind of

36:34getting the human out of the loop except

36:36for the two people in the experiment.

36:39Well, the man who was developing that

36:41unfortunately died.

36:42And so this was an unfinished project.

36:44So I went to Ed May who was director of

36:46Cart Stargate at the time and I said,

36:49"Well, can I go there and finish the

36:50project?"

36:52Yes, sure. Okay. So I went to the

36:55University of Edinburgh for about a year

36:57and I worked on this project to finish

37:00the automated telepathy system and

37:02they've run many, many, many people

37:04through that system by now.

37:07Um

37:08And so while I was there, I finished

37:10that pretty quickly. I was starting to

37:12develop the presentiment experiment. And

37:15yet Julia Mossbridge on the show

37:16recently. So she was I think she was

37:18talking about this experiment where you

37:21can see if somebody's body is reacting

37:25to something in the future that is

37:27unanticipated, that's random. Well, I I

37:29was developing that at the time. This

37:31would have been around '93 or so.

37:34And I

37:35uh

37:36And so let me let me tell you a story

37:38about

37:40the kind of effect that gave me the idea

37:42to do this experiment.

37:45So the the usual way that people talk

37:47about it is that you're you drive to

37:49work the same way every every day

37:50thousands of times and you have a

37:53traffic light that you're coming up to

37:54and it's green. Normally you'd start

37:56accelerating towards it because you want

37:58to get through the light. Something

38:00tells you today there's something wrong.

38:02I don't know what it is, but I'm going

38:04to slow down. And you keep slowing down.

38:06The cars behind you are beeping and

38:08saying, "What what's going on?" You get

38:10almost up to the intersection and a

38:11truck blasts through their red light and

38:14you would have been hit broadside if you

38:15didn't slow down.

38:17So you have this momentary shock of

38:19relief realizing that you just saved

38:21your life by paying attention to that

38:23little voice inside your head.

38:25So, I thought, "Okay, let's simulate

38:27that in the laboratory."

38:29Well, we can't put people in danger, but

38:31we can do emotional tests like that.

38:34So, you wire somebody up looking at skin

38:37conductance or pupil dilation or brain

38:40waves, all kinds of things in your

38:41nervous system.

38:43And then you just record that

38:44continually, tell them press a button,

38:47and then they're going to see something

38:48on a screen.

38:49So, it could be a very calm picture or

38:52it could be a very emotional picture.

38:54So, emotion can split in two ways. It

38:56could be a very negative picture like

38:59picture of surgery or an explosion or

39:01something, or it could be a positive

39:03like a smiling baby.

39:05So, there are two different balances

39:07they're called.

39:08And you don't know which is going to

39:09come up because a true random number

39:11generator's the thing that decides

39:13after you press the button, then it

39:15decides what it's going to show you.

39:17So, nobody knows in advance including

39:19the experimenter.

39:20So, I set up an experiment to do that.

39:23Uh and by this time I already had left

39:26Edinburgh. I had to make a decision then

39:28again, do you want to go back into

39:30industry? And I had an offer from Oak

39:32Ridge National Labs,

39:33which would have put me back in the

39:35classified world, or this other

39:37opportunity which was to uh work at at

39:40University of Nevada funded by Robert

39:43Bigelow, who's probably best known for

39:45the ASAP program.

39:47>> before.

39:47>> Yeah.

39:48So,

39:49Bigelow was very generously said, "Yeah,

39:52well, I'll pay for your way to go into

39:54the university there." And I was able to

39:56run my own lab. So, the one of the very

39:58first things I set up then was first of

40:00all, I want to continue working on this

40:02neural network or machine learning

40:04method that for making a technology of

40:07intention. That was one of the things.

40:09But the other one was this presentiment

40:11experiment. So, I ran that experiment

40:14and it was unbelievably good. Like it's

40:16it's normally you have little

40:18statistical effects.

40:20This is like in your face, holy smoke,

40:22this is a big thing.

40:23Big big

40:25uh pre-

40:25presentiment effects.

40:28Like if a skin conductance, 1 and 1/2

40:30seconds before you

40:33Well, you press a button, you wait 5

40:34seconds.

40:35Then it selects a picture. So, 1 and 1/2

40:37seconds before the picture is selected,

40:39if it's emotional, you start to become

40:41emotional. If it's calm, you remain

40:43calm.

40:44So, that difference

40:46beforehand, we call the presentiment

40:48effect. It's your body somehow or

40:50unconscious knowing what you're about to

40:52see. Just like approaching a light and

40:55slowing down, something is telling you

40:57something.

40:58So, we did that experiment and I told

41:00this to one of the guys at the at the

41:02center I was working at, and he told me

41:04a story

41:06which is

41:07far more

41:08interesting than

41:10than not going through a a red light.

41:12So, the story is this.

41:15So, he used to go hunting with his

41:16buddies, and they had a whole bunch of

41:18guns. His favorite gun was a six-shot

41:22revolver, a double-action revolver. And

41:25so, with the way that he he would take

41:26all the bullets out, he'd clean the

41:27whole thing out, and he'd put in 1 2 3 4

41:305 bullets and leave the hammer over the

41:32empty chamber, so it wouldn't get

41:33jostled accidentally.

41:35So, he's cleaning the gun, he's putting

41:37in bullet 1 2 3 4, he picks up the fifth

41:40bullet,

41:41and he has that feeling.

41:43Something about this bullet isn't right.

41:45So, he didn't put it in, left it aside,

41:47put the hammer over cylinder six, and

41:50then they went hunting.

41:52So, this is now 2 weeks in advance.

41:55They they come back from hunting, his

41:56pistol wasn't used, and a bunch of other

41:59guns weren't used, but they do what you

42:01should not do after you go hunting,

42:03which is starting to drink.

42:05So, they're all getting a little bit too

42:07tipsy and drinking too much, and a fight

42:09breaks out between two people there. One

42:12of them picks up my friend's gun, points

42:15it point-blank at somebody else, like

42:17right in their face, and my friend is

42:19now looking with horror because the

42:21trigger's getting pulled. The hammer's

42:23going back, the cylinder is turning, and

42:25he's trying to intervene now. He steps

42:27right in front of the gun, and it goes

42:30click.

42:32The hammer hit. It hit that fifth

42:34chamber because it rotated from six to

42:37five.

42:38>> Woah.

42:39>> So, he realized with horror at that

42:41moment that if he had not taken out that

42:42bullet, he would be shot in the head.

42:45And so, the afterwards he said,

42:47"Everyone has a bullet with their name

42:49on it, and mine is in a safety deposit

42:52box, and I know exactly where it is, and

42:54it's not coming out."

42:55>> Wow.

42:56>> So,

42:57that's a real-life version of this,

42:59which is 2 weeks in advance. At the

43:01laboratory, we can only look seconds in

43:03advance.

43:04>> Also, you should have the intuition and

43:05not go hunting and drinking with psychos

43:08that are willing to shoot somebody in

43:09the face over an argument.

43:11>> Nevertheless, yeah. So, so what happens?

43:14Uh yeah, so

43:16>> That's crazy, though.

43:17>> So, that but see, this is this is where

43:19we want to go in these kinds of

43:20experiments. You need like real-life

43:22stuff that you can actually test in a

43:24controlled way in the laboratory. But,

43:27there's all kinds of ethical reasons,

43:28obviously, why you can't do that. But,

43:31I'm pretty sure that if we're able to do

43:32to get something at that level in the

43:34laboratory, we would have much, much

43:36stronger results than we currently do.

43:38>> Now, when it comes to things like remote

43:41viewing and being able to be open and

43:47being able to actually

43:49pull it off and actually

43:52remote view things that you can prove.

43:54What is the state of mind these people

43:58are trying to achieve? Is And what is

44:00the protocol for achieving that state of

44:02mind?

44:03>> It depends on whether you're naturally

44:05talented or not.

44:06So, uh

44:08Joe McMoneagle and a few others that

44:10that I know,

44:11uh

44:13if if you uh were to ask them at uh

44:17at breakfast,

44:19uh

44:19>> [clears throat]

44:19>> could you remote view what I have in I

44:20have a hidden folder over here? They

44:22would continue eating and tell you the

44:24answer immediately.

44:25So, for them, it doesn't take much at

44:27all.

44:28And in fact, what Joe would say, and I I

44:30I have I have some pictures from what

44:32Joe had done.

44:34Joe would say that uh if he knows in the

44:35afternoon he's going to do a remote

44:37viewing, he'll get all the information

44:39in the morning.

44:40Like instantly. It'll just It'll just be

44:42there. And then he has to wait until the

44:44you know, the whole thing plays out, but

44:46it's like bang, he got it. So, it's a

44:48matter internally of simply knowing I

44:50need to get this information and it

44:51happens immediately.

44:54For people who don't have that natural

44:55talent, you go through training

44:58where and by the way, almost everybody

45:00can do this, but it does require some

45:02training now.

45:03So, for a an average person,

45:06the training typically is to not name an

45:09impression,

45:11which is really tough.

45:12So, you have a target, which may which

45:14may be somewhere in the world, maybe a

45:16person somewhere, maybe in an envelope,

45:18something like that.

45:20You're taught uh

45:22the you will have something come to

45:24mind. You know that that's the target.

45:26You have no idea what it is, but you

45:27know that there is a target you're going

45:29to have to describe. So, name the first

45:31thing that comes to mind, but not the

45:33without naming it. So, you start little

45:35scribbles, and then you have more

45:36complicated scribbles, and you start

45:38adding feelings and senses that are

45:42associated with these scribbles.

45:43Eventually, you get to the point where

45:45it's kind of all gels together, and then

45:47you get a a coherent image.

45:50The problem is that if you tell somebody

45:52I'm going to show you a picture in 20

45:53minutes that you don't know what it is,

45:55and you say, "Okay, well, just imagine

45:57what you're going to get." And you get a

45:58flash of yellow,

46:00you're instantly going to start thinking

46:02of bananas.

46:03And once that happens, you can't not

46:05think of bananas anymore.

46:07So, that's what I mean by not naming.

46:09>> Mhm.

46:09>> So, that's one of the very first things

46:11that you learn is anything that comes to

46:13mind that you have a name to is probably

46:16not it.

46:18It takes practice, but you can get

46:19there.

46:20>> Wow. What was the most impressive thing

46:22that you ever saw anybody achieve with

46:25remote viewing?

46:27>> After I got the clearances, uh Hal gave

46:30me the briefing that that everyone gets

46:33like in in SCIFs and Congress and

46:35presidents, whatever. I got the same

46:37briefing.

46:38So, uh

46:39one picture after the other of

46:42experiments

46:44by Joe and by a bunch of other people

46:45who are not as well known.

46:47They basically give almost a veridical

46:49drawing of the target. And these are

46:52targets that are elsewhere in the world.

46:54These are targets that are in envelopes.

46:56These are targets that are in SCIFs. All

46:58of all different kinds of targets.

47:00Where nothing about the target is known.

47:03Like I will tell you a five-digit number

47:06which stands for the target. And so, all

47:08you have is a five-digit number. Now,

47:10give me a description of what I'm going

47:11to show you in 2 hours.

47:13And they do it.

47:14>> So, you're putting the number to the

47:16target. You're just saying like uh

47:18Moscow is number 654.

47:21>> A random number, yes.

47:23>> And just by you attributing that number

47:25to whatever this target is, there's a

47:27connection made.

47:28>> Yep.

47:29>> What's happening? How is that

47:30>> Yep.

47:31>> [laughter]

47:31>> So,

47:32>> What's that?

47:33>> Yeah, we we don't know why that is.

47:36Uh there are theories about it, and the

47:39theory requires probably stepping away

47:41from materialism as the only model of

47:44reality.

47:45So, there are other models which allow

47:48for consciousness, whatever that is, cuz

47:49we don't know that either. But

47:51consciousness seems to have a non-local

47:53quality.

47:54So, it's the same kind of non-locality

47:56that you talk about in quantum

47:57mechanics.

47:58>> Mhm.

47:59>> So, quantum mechanics has entanglement,

48:01which are non-local connections between

48:02things.

48:03Uh it was also through time. So,

48:06connections through space and time. So,

48:08we know that that's a real thing. That's

48:09what the physical world allows.

48:11It is as though consciousness, whatever

48:13that is, also has that property. It is

48:17non-local.

48:18So, if you push it hard enough, you end

48:20up with something like the that movie uh

48:23everything everywhere all at the same

48:25time. That's basically what we're

48:27talking about. There's an aspect of

48:29reality which we don't ordinarily see,

48:32but nevertheless connects everything

48:35throughout space and time.

48:37And so, if it that were not true, then

48:39things like precognition wouldn't work

48:40so well, telepathy wouldn't work, remote

48:42viewing wouldn't work. None of that

48:44would work.

48:45But nevertheless, it does work. So, that

48:48is like a more comprehensive way of

48:50understanding what reality's like.

48:52>> Do you think this is an emerging quality

48:54in human beings, or do you think this is

48:57an atrophied quality that we used to all

49:00have before the development of written

49:03language, books, media, all these

49:06different things that sort of take away

49:09this quiet communication that people

49:12probably had with each other. We believe

49:14wolves have that with each other. Wolves

49:16coordinate somehow. They coordinate

49:18attacks on animals. And it could be

49:20through learned experience, but how do

49:22they how do they remember it and know

49:24what to do and how do each one have

49:26specific roles? Like one wolf will chase

49:29the elk into like a certain corridor,

49:31and the other wolves will wait and be on

49:33uh like a higher ground and come down

49:35and attack. They know that they do weird

49:37stuff that somehow or another requires

49:40some kind of communication.

49:42>> Yes.

49:43And they're way more intelligent than we

49:45have usually thought.

49:46>> Well, think about how intelligent some

49:48dogs are.

49:49>> Yeah.

49:49>> You know, like a Belgian Malinois or

49:51something like that. One of those dogs

49:52they use for military training. Those

49:53Those dogs are incredibly intelligent,

49:56and they need action exercise. They need

49:58activities. They need things to

49:59stimulate them, cuz their brain is like

50:01firing all day long. Wolf is that times

50:04a hundred.

50:05>> Yeah. And so,

50:07most animals, plants, insects, maybe or

50:09have consciousness in some form. And if

50:11that consciousness is similar to ours,

50:14it is non-local.

50:15>> Do you think it's an emerging thing, or

50:17do you think it's a thing that we've

50:18always had?

50:20>> I I think that we are shaped as humans

50:23by evolution to not pay attention to the

50:26there and then.

50:28Because if we were paying attention to

50:29there and then a lot, then you may not

50:31notice that there's a tiger in front of

50:33you who's about to eat you.

50:35And so, if you like look over the the

50:36long span of development of whatever it

50:39is we are,

50:41people who are walking around thinking

50:43about Pluto a million years ago would

50:46have been pruned out of existence.

50:48>> [laughter]

50:49>> So, only certain kinds of people

50:51historically were able to do that. We

50:52call them shaman.

50:54And the shaman as part of a tribe were

50:56extremely important because they knew

50:58the food would be 10 miles away that way

51:01next week.

51:02But the shaman typically could not take

51:04care of themselves very well. You know,

51:06their their minds are off in Pluto, and

51:09so the tribe took care of them.

51:12And so, today we don't have that very

51:13much. There are

51:15we're distracted by everything,

51:17and we don't have the same

51:20uh kinds of needs that they would have

51:22had 10, 20,000 years ago.

51:26Uh except in some indigenous societies.

51:29So, one time I gave a talk for the

51:31Australian government. There's a whole

51:32bunch of ministers there and people in

51:34the military, and I was talking about

51:36this sort of stuff.

51:37And unbeknownst to me, one of the

51:39ministers was representative of the

51:41indigenous people there. So, I finished

51:44this long talk on telepathy,

51:46uh and and she came up afterwards and

51:48said, "Well,

51:49we've known this stuff for thousands of

51:51years. That's they they would use it.

51:53Like in the Outback, there was no

51:55phones, but somehow they were in

51:57communications, part of the culture."

51:59So, they didn't have the distractions

52:01and they had a need.

52:03So, you can imagine a more or less

52:05isolated culture for a long period of

52:07time that didn't have tigers immediately

52:10al- always trying to capture them, they

52:12had the need to be able to communicate

52:13that way.

52:14We don't have the need anymore, so it

52:16atrophies.

52:17>> Mhm. Okay. So, it atrophies and so it

52:20with things like remote viewing, do you

52:22think this is almost like a relearning

52:25of a skill that people had at one point

52:27in time?

52:28>> Yeah. And there's still some people who

52:30have some of the genetics because all of

52:33this is basically is devolving back into

52:35talent. Some people have that talent.

52:38>> And you think that's a genetic thing?

52:40>> I think a good chunk of it is genetic,

52:42yes.

52:42>> So, it's from people in their ancient

52:44past that had that quality, had that

52:46ability. And they passed on that trait.

52:48>> Yeah.

52:49>> This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

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53:44That's better h e l p.com/jre.

53:50>> So, like in Joe McMoneagle's case, he

53:53was one of those guys who did search and

53:54rescue behind enemy lines.

53:56And he always came back. His team always

53:58found their guy and they always came

54:00back alive.

54:02And and so, well, where did that come

54:04from? Well, he used his intuition in the

54:06field to decide let's not go down that

54:09road, let's go over here. And and it was

54:11safe. So, afterwards, when asked, when

54:15there was recruiting for people who had

54:16some abilities like this, they would ask

54:19people like that, "Do you find like in

54:21your in combat, you never get hit?"

54:23Okay, let's talk.

54:25Uh the other thing, of course, is did

54:27you ever have any experiences beforehand

54:29that suggests that maybe you had these

54:31experiences? Well, Joe did and his

54:34sister did, too. So, there it suggests

54:36again some kind of a familial genetic

54:39underpinning for why people have

54:41experiences.

54:43So, I will continue the story because

54:45I'm going to intersect with this genetic

54:47part in a minute.

54:49So, I'm at you and LV

54:51doing all kinds of interesting stuff. Uh

54:55somehow the the New York Times learns

54:58about what I'm doing and they think it's

54:59an interesting character story for a

55:01parapsychologist to be working

55:04in Las Vegas

55:05because Las Vegas is sometimes called

55:07the the largest parapsychology lab in

55:10the world. You have a whole bunch of

55:12people trying to mentally influence more

55:15more or less random systems, like they

55:17are all the time.

55:18>> Mhm.

55:19>> So, okay.

55:20>> way to look at Vegas.

55:21>> Yeah. Well, it kind of is, right? You

55:23toss the dice, you want a certain

55:25result. Well, we do that in the

55:26laboratory, except we don't have a lot

55:28of money associated with it.

55:30Uh I was able to actually get data from

55:33one of the casinos, the smaller casinos,

55:35and the because the general manager was

55:37interested in what I was doing. So I

55:39said, well, can I get all the data as

55:41much as you have on jackpots

55:44for slot machines and also the table

55:46games?

55:47And a miracle occurred and she said,

55:48yeah. So she gave us the data, was able

55:50to analyze it and among other things

55:52found that jackpots happen more often

55:56and payouts happened were larger

55:59and table games did better between one

56:03one or plus or minus one day from the

56:05full moon.

56:07And which by the way matches magical

56:09lore.

56:10I mean all kinds of things are are

56:11related to when the full moon happens.

56:14Religious effects and all kinds of

56:15things.

56:16So I thought, well, that's interesting.

56:18More jackpots happen

56:20plus or minus the day of the full moon.

56:21I And that's why I said to the general

56:23manager,

56:24maybe this is something you don't want

56:25to tell people

56:26cuz they'll all start coming in the full

56:28moon.

56:29She said, yeah.

56:31Bring them in because all you could do

56:33with this information was lose a little

56:35bit slower.

56:36Because everything is, you know, you

56:38Vegas

56:39>> Rigged.

56:39>> Yeah, it was not rigged but it's set up

56:41in such a way that the odds are against

56:43you.

56:44>> Yeah.

56:44>> So you would lose slower. But but

56:46nevertheless, you'd see that in the

56:47data. So there's something interesting.

56:49Okay. So I I get to the to the end of my

56:52time at UNLV and a new door opens.

56:55And it partially because I because of

56:58the New York Times piece, that book that

57:00I had written at Princeton that nobody

57:02wanted to buy, suddenly had publishers

57:05calling me and saying, do you ever think

57:06about writing a book?

57:08Yeah. I I have one.

57:10So I published that book. That caught

57:12the attention of people at a

57:14organization called Interval Research,

57:18which was funded by Paul Allen, the the

57:21co-founder of Microsoft.

57:23So Paul Allen was interested in doing

57:25what he called uh developing the wired

57:27world. This was uh

57:30This would have been started in 1990 as

57:33a 10-year project to figure out given

57:37that the internet was going to be a

57:38gigantic thing, what do we do with it?

57:41So, this was people that were that were

57:44poached from Apple and from Xerox Park

57:46and the MIT lab and all the lots of

57:49places. They brought 100 people

57:50together. And so, I was invited to do a

57:54psi research program there with a budget

57:56that was 10 times larger than I had at

57:58UNLV and a salary that was three times

58:01larger. So, I thought, "Yeah, that's the

58:03door that I want."

58:04So, at interval, everything was

58:06proprietary because it was all leading

58:08into patents that would eventually

58:11create things. And so, some of the

58:12things we take for granted now were

58:13developed there.

58:15Uh I was there not so much to develop a

58:18psychic technology, but because a small

58:21percentage of the projects were

58:23considered blue sky.

58:25This kind of the make sure that

58:27everybody in the lab realized that we're

58:30trying to push the envelope hard in

58:33developing new things. And so, it's

58:34always useful to have a couple of

58:36speculative projects around.

58:38So, I worked on that.

58:41And then, uh that the 10 years was over

58:43in 2000. So, this is all in Silicon

58:45Valley.

58:46So, a couple of us then left to create a

58:49nonprofit

58:51uh

58:52which which we called the Boundary

58:53Institute, which would continue the

58:55research that we were doing.

58:57And then, that lasted for about a year

58:59because there was the dot-com crash and

59:02we couldn't raise money to keep

59:03ourselves afloat.

59:05I was invited then to join the Institute

59:07of Noetic Sciences, where I've been now

59:09for the last 25 years.

59:11So, the the the circle here is here I am

59:14in college and looking at this this

59:16place studying the frontiers of

59:18consciousness

59:19and that's where I end up and I've been

59:21there ever since and no new doors have

59:23opened that have attracted me. So, I'm

59:26I'm there and I've been having great fun

59:28at the institute.

59:30>> I interrupted you when we were talking

59:32about numbers being associated with

59:33targets, and you were expanding on

59:37actionable data. Like real Like what

59:40What was the most impressive thing to

59:42you that you saw the people achieve with

59:44remote viewing?

59:45>> Do you mean from an operational sense or

59:48or

59:48>> just Just for people listening, like

59:50what would be

59:52the most spectacular example of

59:54something that couldn't be achieved any

59:56other way?

59:58>> Well, one of the things was actually

1:00:00admitted by President Carter way back

1:00:02when when they found a

1:00:05a bomber, a nuclear bomber that that

1:00:08landed somewhere in Africa,

1:00:10uh which could not be seen from above

1:00:12because of the canopy of of all the And

1:00:14And nobody knew where it actually

1:00:15landed.

1:00:16>> It crashed, right?

1:00:17>> It crashed.

1:00:18There was a a bomb on board that they

1:00:20did not want anybody else to get.

1:00:22Um

1:00:23and so they asked one of the remote

1:00:25viewers. In fact, this One of the They

1:00:27They asked several of them, but one of

1:00:28them specialized in location, which is

1:00:31very difficult for remote viewing. Like

1:00:33if you look at a map and you say, "Well,

1:00:34you know, put a dot on the map for where

1:00:36it is."

1:00:37That turns out to not be very easy, even

1:00:39for remote viewers. But this one lady

1:00:43was very, very good at that. She was a

1:00:44dowser.

1:00:46In fact, she was a map dowser.

1:00:48So, you get a big piece of blank

1:00:49>> saying dowser like those people that

1:00:51walk around with the the stick to find

1:00:52water?

1:00:53>> Yeah, except map dowser thing is you

1:00:55have a blank sheet of paper which is

1:00:58linked by association to an actual map

1:01:00somewhere. You don't You know, you don't

1:01:02want to give anything away, so you don't

1:01:04use a real map. Use a piece of paper

1:01:06which is has little X's on it that map

1:01:08onto an actual map.

1:01:10>> Okay.

1:01:10>> So, we asked this lady, her name was

1:01:12Fran,

1:01:13uh put a mark on the map of where this

1:01:15bomber landed. And of course, she

1:01:18doesn't know it's Africa. She doesn't

1:01:19know anything.

1:01:21She does her thing, and she puts a mark

1:01:22on the map, and says, "I I think it's

1:01:24there."

1:01:25And so, they go there, and they find it

1:01:27within a couple of kilometers of that

1:01:29spot.

1:01:30>> Woah.

1:01:30>> And so, they they originally go to that

1:01:33spot, they see natives nearby. So, they

1:01:36ask the natives, you know, "Was there

1:01:38anything crashing out of the sky

1:01:39recently?" Said, "Yeah, something

1:01:41happened over there. That's where it

1:01:42was."

1:01:44>> Now, what did Carter say when he when he

1:01:47spoke about this publicly?

1:01:48>> Carter was asked a very similar

1:01:50question, that did did you ever

1:01:52encounter anything really weird? So,

1:01:54that's the example that he used.

1:01:56>> Didn't Carter have a UFO experience

1:01:59before?

1:01:59>> He had that as well, yeah.

1:02:01>> And Carter was the the folklore is that

1:02:03Carter was briefed

1:02:05about something having to do with alien

1:02:07life, and he was so upset that he he

1:02:10started weeping.

1:02:11>> Yes, I have heard those stories, yes.

1:02:14>> What do you think about those stories?

1:02:15>> It could well be true.

1:02:17Yeah.

1:02:18I mean, so, here there's actually

1:02:20>> of what he was told?

1:02:22>> Uh, no. I don't know what he was told.

1:02:24If I had a guess, given that he was a

1:02:26very religious person, it probably was

1:02:28pushing against his religious beliefs.

1:02:31>> Yeah.

1:02:31>> That's what I would guess.

1:02:32>> Well, you know, that was the the giant

1:02:34rumor that was going around recently,

1:02:37that there was going to be some big

1:02:38disclosure by the White House, and that

1:02:40a bunch of pastors had been briefed

1:02:42about this to try to talk to their

1:02:43flock,

1:02:44and then and to, you know, get ahead of

1:02:47it.

1:02:47>> Yeah.

1:02:48Yeah.

1:02:49>> You heard that, right?

1:02:50>> Yeah, that

1:02:50>> What did you think of that?

1:02:51>> It could well be true.

1:02:53So, I I know Jacques Vallee really well,

1:02:56uh

1:02:56>> He's a fascinating guy.

1:02:58>> Yeah. And And I know Garry Nolan, and

1:03:00and

1:03:00>> Another fascinating

1:03:01>> Yeah, I I I

1:03:03work in circles where we basically all

1:03:05known each other for a long time.

1:03:07Uh, and the the UFO business, UAP, is

1:03:10very similar in some respects to the

1:03:12psychic side.

1:03:14B- both in that there's an enormous

1:03:16amount of misinformation that has been

1:03:18pushed by government, by other places to

1:03:22deflect attention.

1:03:23>> Right.

1:03:24>> And so there there's lots of examples of

1:03:26that.

1:03:28Which

1:03:29I mean I

1:03:30because of what we know now about the

1:03:32UFO thing,

1:03:34it's relatively easy to see how that

1:03:36could have happened for

1:03:39for the psi business as well. So just

1:03:42one example, I I go to the Naval War

1:03:44College and I've given a number of

1:03:46lectures

1:03:47and one of them is on telepathy. How do

1:03:49we know that telepathy actually exists?

1:03:51There's a bunch of different ways of

1:03:53knowing that.

1:03:54And so afterwards two sub commanders

1:03:56come up. In fact, that's that's the

1:03:58story. That's the opening story gambit

1:04:00in my book Science and Magic.

1:04:02So the two sub commanders come up and

1:04:04they say well we have a story to tell

1:04:06you. These are two independent subs.

1:04:09They're the commanders of two subs.

1:04:11So I'm telling them all everything we

1:04:13know about telepathy and they say well

1:04:15one time and we're we're submerged,

1:04:18we're under maneuvers,

1:04:20a crewman wakes up from a dream and tell

1:04:22goes to the commander and says we need

1:04:24to surface because something bad has

1:04:25happened at home.

1:04:28Well, we can't. We're under maneuvers.

1:04:29Next time we can surface, well then you

1:04:31can call home.

1:04:33So the next time they surface they call

1:04:34home and sure enough when the sailor

1:04:37woke up from his dream, there was indeed

1:04:38something bad happening at home.

1:04:41So I had So both of the commanders had

1:04:43the same story.

1:04:45So I said well, does this happen like

1:04:46every Tuesday?

1:04:47No, there were no false positives. It

1:04:50happened once and both times it was it

1:04:52was correct.

1:04:54That's very important to know, not

1:04:56simply that it happens,

1:04:57but it is happening when the submarines

1:04:59are at a classified depth,

1:05:01which means at least 300 m, probably

1:05:03more below the surface of the ocean

1:05:05where it's extremely difficult to get

1:05:07any kind of message there.

1:05:10So it's not electromagnetic.

1:05:11We don't know what that would be.

1:05:13>> What were the events at home that were

1:05:14bad?

1:05:15>> They didn't tell me the events at home,

1:05:17but it was the same

1:05:18>> Personal events? Like some in someone's

1:05:19family or something?

1:05:20>> Something in their family, something was

1:05:22going wrong.

1:05:23Uh which turned out to be correct. So,

1:05:25So, one thing is, yes, it tells us

1:05:26something that's important to know from

1:05:28a scientific perspective because they

1:05:30are not reachable by ordinary means.

1:05:32That's the whole point about having a

1:05:34submarine. Very difficult to know where

1:05:36they are and get messages to them.

1:05:38The other thing is, the people who are

1:05:40selected to be submariners are

1:05:43psychologically extremely stable.

1:05:46They are not prone to flights of

1:05:48fantasy. They don't have claustrophobia.

1:05:49They They don't have any kind of the

1:05:51neuroses that you would imagine that

1:05:53somebody would need to go into a

1:05:55submarine for months submerged who knows

1:05:57where.

1:05:58>> Right.

1:05:59>> So, it means that this happens to

1:06:00ordinary people. In this case, in an

1:06:03altered state of awareness, namely in a

1:06:04dream state, but nevertheless, they got

1:06:06it. And there were no false positives.

1:06:09So,

1:06:10I was a little

1:06:12whenever I give a talk to a new type of

1:06:13group, especially in the military, I was

1:06:15thinking these guys are they think I'm

1:06:17nuts because I'm telling them stuff that

1:06:21shouldn't exist by any conventional

1:06:23perspective.

1:06:24It's exactly the opposite.

1:06:27I'm mostly have talked to officers, like

1:06:29uh up to generals and admirals and few

1:06:32levels below that.

1:06:33They are all completely on board.

1:06:36And I began to understand why. That not

1:06:39only are they in in life and death

1:06:40situations, and that's where these

1:06:42things tend to bubble up, but also they

1:06:45had to trust their intuition in making

1:06:47lots of decisions that affect other

1:06:49people. And they would not have risen

1:06:51through the ranks unless they were

1:06:52really, really good at it.

1:06:55So, that that's why I was not getting

1:06:57the kind of pushback that I expected to

1:06:58get.

1:07:00>> Interesting. The Bell Labs connection is

1:07:02very interesting, too. You know, Bell

1:07:04Labs is a

1:07:05It's also the source of myth and

1:07:08folklore about the Roswell crash.

1:07:11That they received things from the

1:07:13Roswell craft and back engineered it.

1:07:17Do you know that whole crazy

1:07:19>> I I know about those stories. I I don't

1:07:21know any I don't have any direct

1:07:22knowledge of any of that stuff.

1:07:23>> Never heard anything when you were

1:07:24there?

1:07:26There was a company called the American

1:07:27Computer Company way back in the day and

1:07:29they just would sell, you know, Windows

1:07:31computers. You could

1:07:33you pick out the hard drive and all this

1:07:34jazz online. They'd build it for you.

1:07:36>> Yeah.

1:07:36>> And they had a whole page of their

1:07:38website that was dedicated to uh Bell

1:07:41Laboratories and Bell Laboratories being

1:07:44close to a military base

1:07:47not because the military base is really

1:07:48to protect New York City. It was really

1:07:50to protect Bell Labs cuz they were

1:07:51working all this top secret stuff there

1:07:53and that they had back engineered some

1:07:55stuff from the Roswell crash. This is

1:07:56all like this

1:07:58>> Maybe.

1:07:59>> It's so fun. Why is that stuff so fun?

1:08:02>> Yeah, uh maybe. I mean, after all, they

1:08:04they invented the fiber optics and

1:08:06lasers and everything in modern the

1:08:08modern world.

1:08:09>> optics specifically was one of the

1:08:10things that they discussed as being

1:08:12something that they discovered.

1:08:13>> Well, there is I mean, if you go to the

1:08:16to to the ordinary history, you can

1:08:18figure out why that happened. Not that

1:08:20it didn't involve reverse engineering

1:08:22anything. That there's a long history

1:08:24about why somebody would have gotten to

1:08:26the point to realize that you can do

1:08:28certain things with glass.

1:08:30That would be interesting.

1:08:31>> Mhm.

1:08:32>> Whether the idea came from somewhere

1:08:34else, that's that I don't know.

1:08:36>> It's just interesting. It's just It's

1:08:38It's fascinating when you find out that

1:08:40there are these very limited access

1:08:42programs that are

1:08:44beyond top secret that even the

1:08:45president can't find out about them.

1:08:47>> Yeah.

1:08:48Yeah, and so with one of the

1:08:49disadvantage of a special access program

1:08:51is that you could be working next to

1:08:53somebody and are not allowed to talk

1:08:55about what they're doing. And that that

1:08:57was happening a lot. So, a lot of the

1:09:00Stargate program is now public. It's

1:09:03There's like four volumes that that go

1:09:05through great gory detail on this called

1:09:07the Stargate archives.

1:09:10Not all of it has been released.

1:09:12So, a lot of the military stuff won't

1:09:14will never be released because it

1:09:15involves people and methods and so on.

1:09:18Some of the research side is not

1:09:19released either.

1:09:21And so I know about that because I was I

1:09:24was in there. I also just

1:09:26by virtue of hanging around other

1:09:28people, you learn things

1:09:30that that they talk about. So, we know

1:09:32about some of those things, too. And I

1:09:34know when you they're talking to Hal

1:09:36Puthoff and occasionally would ask him

1:09:37something and he say, "Well, I can't

1:09:38talk about that.

1:09:40Well, I can't talk about this."

1:09:41>> Right.

1:09:43That's a problem. Does that frustrate

1:09:45you that you can't openly discuss some

1:09:48of these things?

1:09:49>> Yes.

1:09:51It was especially frustrating when I was

1:09:52working there because we go into the

1:09:54building and we're doing all kinds of

1:09:56interesting psychic things and you go

1:09:58out of the building and it does not only

1:10:00it doesn't exist.

1:10:01And if it ever comes up in conversation,

1:10:03you don't say I can't talk about it

1:10:05because that would mean they know just

1:10:07you have to go along with the game and

1:10:09just agree with everybody else that it's

1:10:11all nonsense.

1:10:12>> Wow.

1:10:12>> So, it's nonsense out there and in here

1:10:15we're working on it. So, that kind of

1:10:17>> What a weird psychological dilemma.

1:10:19>> Well, even worse.

1:10:22The whole point about classification is

1:10:24to keep secrets.

1:10:26We were figuring out ways that you can't

1:10:28keep secrets.

1:10:30Right? I mean, the whole thing about

1:10:31remote viewing and telepathy and all

1:10:32that stuff. There are no secrets.

1:10:35With the right talented people, nothing

1:10:37can be shielded. Nothing.

1:10:40Outside, everything is all about

1:10:42secrets. So, one of the reasons, I

1:10:44think, that these topics are still have

1:10:46a stigma attached to them and why

1:10:48there's disinformation

1:10:50is because imagine how the society would

1:10:52work if there were no secrets.

1:10:55>> Do you don't you think that technology

1:10:56is eventually taking us in that

1:10:58direction?

1:11:00>> Yes, but it's not going to be Neuralink.

1:11:02It's It's not going to be brain

1:11:05computer stuff. It's going to be the

1:11:07real thing.

1:11:09>> You You So, you think technology will

1:11:11aid us in achieving the real thing?

1:11:12>> Yes.

1:11:13>> How so?

1:11:14>> Okay. So,

1:11:17one day we're talking to Gary Nolan.

1:11:19Uh Gary says, uh "Have you ever looked

1:11:22at the genetics of of highly talented

1:11:24people?" There's a lot of folklore out

1:11:27there that there people who are psychic

1:11:29who come from psychic families.

1:11:32And then there people who don't have

1:11:33anything psychic and don't have anybody

1:11:35talking about psychic stuff.

1:11:38That suggests genetics. So, this is a

1:11:40couple years ago we decided to do an

1:11:42experiment that we call side genes.

1:11:44We're looking for the psychic gene.

1:11:47More likely a polygenetic trait, but

1:11:49nevertheless, something about genetics.

1:11:51So,

1:11:52we do an experiment where we recruit

1:11:553,000 people using the internet who say

1:11:58that they're psychic from psychic

1:11:59families. And then we do all kinds of

1:12:01vetting to make sure that they are who

1:12:03they say they are and they have some

1:12:05talent.

1:12:06And we get their DNA.

1:12:08Uh we only had enough money to find out

1:12:09of the 3,000 people, 13. Cuz we also did

1:12:13face-to-face interviews to make sure

1:12:14they weren't nuts.

1:12:16So, we get their DNA. Then we find match

1:12:18controls and we do standard methods of

1:12:21comparing the two the two sets of

1:12:23genomes.

1:12:25And so, we found something that we

1:12:27didn't expect, which was that the

1:12:30psychics were all so-called wild type.

1:12:33They didn't have any unusual things

1:12:35happening in their their DNA.

1:12:37The controls

1:12:39had a significant effect in an intron

1:12:41sequence.

1:12:43So, when you you have you have DNA, it's

1:12:44billions of base pairs. Only about

1:12:4750,000 of them produce proteins. It's

1:12:50the ex- called the exome. It's a portion

1:12:52that creates our body. It's It's that

1:12:54stuff.

1:12:55All of the rest of it used to be called

1:12:57junk DNA cuz they didn't know what it it

1:12:59did. It's the intron sequence. It's the

1:13:02thing between the genes.

1:13:04That now we know is the epigenetic

1:13:07portion. It's the portion of the DNA

1:13:09that turns genes on and off.

1:13:11These controls had a mutation in their

1:13:14intron sequence. So, they were turning

1:13:17something off. We still don't know

1:13:19exactly what it is, but something about

1:13:22their makeup was turning off psychic

1:13:24sensitivity.

1:13:26And so, one of the people in our our

1:13:27project was a specialist in the genetics

1:13:31of societies. Different societies have

1:13:33different genetic makeup. And he found

1:13:36that to our surprise there, too, that

1:13:39countries that were exposed to

1:13:41Christianity, the longer they were

1:13:43exposed, the more this intron sequence

1:13:46was there, the mutation. We started

1:13:49thinking, "Well, how does that make any

1:13:50sense?" And suddenly we understood.

1:13:54The uh

1:13:56the Inquisition had systematically

1:13:58looked for people over hundreds of years

1:14:01who had these abilities, and then they

1:14:02killed them.

1:14:04And so, you

1:14:04>> Jeez.

1:14:05>> You think about this is a uh a

1:14:07non-evolutionary

1:14:09method, but nevertheless a pruning of a

1:14:11portion of humanity. So, they were

1:14:14getting rid of people who had this, and

1:14:16what were left over were people who had

1:14:17this no psychic stuff at all.

1:14:21So,

1:14:22yeah. So, it's like a uh

1:14:24a eugenics in an opposite direction

1:14:26where they weren't trying to pull people

1:14:28for talent, but get rid of the talent.

1:14:30And you can see it in the in the genome.

1:14:33>> And this is directly connected the to

1:14:35the Inquisition? Because so the

1:14:38Inquisition

1:14:40this is

1:14:41What What were they like who were they

1:14:43targeting specifically?

1:14:45>> They were targeting witches.

1:14:47So, the witches were once I mean an

1:14:49awful lot of innocent people were caught

1:14:51up in that as well.

1:14:53>> But people who are known as healers, who

1:14:56people who had precognition. And of

1:14:57course the the church at the time was

1:14:59just concerned that somebody's going to

1:15:01come along that's going to attract our

1:15:03followers away from us.

1:15:05So, magic was okay within the church.

1:15:09Within the bounds of the church if a

1:15:10priest is anointed in a certain way,

1:15:12they can do magic. The whole ceremony of

1:15:15the Eucharist is a magical practice.

1:15:17It's okay.

1:15:19Outside of the church it was not okay.

1:15:21And so it was a very heavy-handed way of

1:15:24ensuring that the power would remain in

1:15:26the church.

1:15:27>> So, by enforcing their Christian

1:15:29ideology, they eliminated anybody that

1:15:31had any alternative powers or

1:15:35visions or anything weird any other kind

1:15:38of practices.

1:15:39>> Yeah. And so the the case of the

1:15:41Catholic saints is very interesting.

1:15:44Like Joseph of Cupertino was said to

1:15:47have levitated. And also to do

1:15:49bilocation. Very psychic things.

1:15:52He was very he was lucky in a sense that

1:15:57he was already a priest. Uh lots of

1:16:00people thousands of people saw him

1:16:02levitate.

1:16:03And he made basically a deal was made

1:16:06with the Inquisition that you now need

1:16:08to go to this place out in the middle of

1:16:09nowhere and don't show this anymore to

1:16:11anybody. Because we don't

1:16:13>> you say he could levitate like how high?

1:16:15>> There are stories of him levitating 30

1:16:17ft.

1:16:19>> Sometimes drifting into the rafters of

1:16:21churches in front of astonished crowds

1:16:23and even Pope Urban the the eighth.

1:16:25>> Yeah.

1:16:25>> You could read more about it in his

1:16:27extraordinary life through Franciscan

1:16:29Media.

1:16:30Huh.

1:16:31>> Yeah, Saint Teresa life

1:16:32>> The patron saint go back please. The

1:16:35often called the patron saint of air

1:16:37travelers.

1:16:38>> Yeah, why not?

1:16:39Right, we're all levitating.

1:16:41>> Well, that is the most famous levitator

1:16:43in Catholic history. So there's other

1:16:45levitators?

1:16:45>> Oh, yeah. Yeah, there's a book called

1:16:48>> How come nobody can do that now?

1:16:50>> Uh, there are stories that people can do

1:16:52it now, but so far in the laboratory we

1:16:53haven't able to see this.

1:16:56>> Hmm.

1:16:57>> There's a book called

1:16:58>> Stop, stop, please. Go back.

1:17:00Um, [clears throat] this one, Saint

1:17:02Teresa of Avila.

1:17:03>> Yeah.

1:17:03>> Uh, Spanish mystic who famously recorded

1:17:06that her levitations occurred

1:17:07unexpectedly during states of deep

1:17:09spiritual rapture. She described the

1:17:11sensation as a violent force lifting her

1:17:13up from beneath her feet and was so

1:17:15embarrassed by it that she instructed

1:17:17fellow nuns to physically hold her down.

1:17:21Whoa.

1:17:22>> dozens of them.

1:17:23>> Assisi.

1:17:25But it's like

1:17:27do it now.

1:17:28Why do you think people don't do it now

1:17:30and film it on their iPhone?

1:17:32>> Well, so the TM organization had a city

1:17:35program, the city yogic powers.

1:17:37>> Like levitation.

1:17:37>> And and they had this whole thing for a

1:17:39long time about yogic flyers.

1:17:41So one time I went to the university

1:17:43where they were going to show the four

1:17:45best yogic flyers. They were all excited

1:17:48about that. We had a few other people.

1:17:50And so there were four young men who go

1:17:52in full lotus position

1:17:54and then hop.

1:17:55>> I've seen that.

1:17:56>> Yeah. So so we are like, you know, right

1:17:58next to them seeing hopping and the

1:18:00hopping's pretty good because you're in

1:18:01a full lotus position and you hop around

1:18:03two and a half feet.

1:18:04>> It's plyometrics, though.

1:18:06>> Yeah.

1:18:06>> Yeah.

1:18:06>> It was hopping. So I said I asked them,

1:18:09"Well, why why aren't anybody flying Why

1:18:11why is the flying not happening?" They

1:18:13didn't go.

1:18:14>> Right, but

1:18:15you know.

1:18:15>> So that's it takes You have to be pretty

1:18:17strong to do that.

1:18:18>> Yeah, but that's all that is.

1:18:19>> Yeah.

1:18:19>> I know guys who can do that.

1:18:21>> So the Maharishi was asked "Why why

1:18:23don't why isn't anybody flying?" And his

1:18:25response was there's too many people who

1:18:27think it's impossible.

1:18:29So it's it becomes like a sociological

1:18:31thing. So is that true?

1:18:34I don't know.

1:18:35>> Do you think it's people are more

1:18:37close-minded to the ideas that anything

1:18:40outside the norm?

1:18:42Anything like that, levitation, is

1:18:43nonsense. So, it's like it's permeated

1:18:45our our zeitgeist.

1:18:47>> Yes. It It also I believe that it can

1:18:49act as a block for other people.

1:18:52So, what what is So, you haven't asked

1:18:54yet, why is a scientist who worked at

1:18:57Princeton and Bell Labs and what Why am

1:18:58I writing about magic? It's because of a

1:19:00couple of experiences that told me that

1:19:03our understanding of psychic effects now

1:19:06is like in a box. We We generally do

1:19:08experiments. We get relatively small

1:19:10effects. They're not gigantic effects.

1:19:13They're not levitation.

1:19:15Well,

1:19:16maybe it's the same thing. Somebody can

1:19:18make a random number generator do

1:19:20something.

1:19:21It You need statistics to see it.

1:19:23They're really small, but we don't know

1:19:25the limits.

1:19:26So, I've had a few experiences

1:19:28that told me I really don't know what

1:19:30the limits are.

1:19:32And so, that that brings up this.

1:19:35So, bending a bowl of a spoon without

1:19:37force,

1:19:38which I did.

1:19:40And so, I I brought you a spoon. This is

1:19:42the same spoon from the It's from 1961.

1:19:45It's this particular

1:19:47So, I set up this. I I went to a

1:19:50uh spoke called spoon bending party

1:19:53because

1:19:53>> You bent that spoon with your brain?

1:19:55Or your mind?

1:19:56>> Well, with

1:19:57>> Or your consciousness or whatever it is?

1:19:59Something.

1:20:00>> did something, but I'll show you in a

1:20:01minute how we did this. So, I The reason

1:20:03I did this cuz I was at Interval and at

1:20:05the time Russ Targ was working for me

1:20:08and at May too.

1:20:10And Russ came back from one of these

1:20:12parties and he said he had bent a a

1:20:15rebar,

1:20:161/2 in rebar.

1:20:18Which that I mean, some muscle men can

1:20:21do that, but

1:20:22you have to be pretty strong to bend a

1:20:24rebar and have it stay there.

1:20:26So, I was thinking that is ridiculous. I

1:20:28didn't say that, but I was thinking

1:20:30that's impossible.

1:20:32And the same thing about this. If you

1:20:34bend the neck of a spoon, which is what

1:20:36typically people do,

1:20:38a person can do that just and it's gone.

1:20:41So fast that you you can't see it. And

1:20:42then you hide it and you reveal it and

1:20:44it looks like you bent it.

1:20:46So, I went to one of these parties

1:20:48and I heard that there was a woman there

1:20:50who was able to bend the bowl of the

1:20:51spoon just by touching it. Not by

1:20:54itself, but sort of touching it and

1:20:55moving it over. And I said, "I want to

1:20:57see that because it's ridiculous."

1:21:00So, I'm standing in front of this woman

1:21:02and she's holding it like this. She has

1:21:04a a thumb there and a finger here.

1:21:06>> Mhm.

1:21:06>> And and so, she's waiting for her to do

1:21:09it and I'm mimicking her because I

1:21:11wanted I want to see how she's doing it.

1:21:14You know, is it a trick?

1:21:15So, we're doing that and nothing is

1:21:17happening and then somebody says, "Look

1:21:19what you did." And I'm looking, "Well,

1:21:20somebody did something?" No, Dean, look

1:21:23what you did. I'd bent it 90°.

1:21:26And I immediately look at my fingers.

1:21:27Did I do this by force? No, no

1:21:30indication, no indentation or anything.

1:21:33And so, the person said, "Bend it all

1:21:34the way." So, it was halfway and I I

1:21:37literally went

1:21:38and went all the way.

1:21:40So,

1:21:41so now I have this spoon and I'm sort of

1:21:44mind-boggled by it cuz I know it wasn't

1:21:47force. I'm not strong enough to be able

1:21:49to do that. Very few people would be

1:21:50able to do it.

1:21:51So, I have another spoon just like it

1:21:54and I'm on the plane flying home and I'm

1:21:56like trying to do it with this spoon and

1:21:58I suddenly get a huge shock of fear

1:22:02because I'm in a metal tin can 30,000 ft

1:22:05up and I don't know how I did it and I

1:22:07don't want the wings to suddenly go

1:22:09shoo.

1:22:10Because I'm

1:22:11>> Right.

1:22:12>> I still don't know exactly how, but I

1:22:14know the metallurgy now. So, it turns

1:22:16out that if you're holding it like that

1:22:18and you can do between 50 and 70 lb of

1:22:21force suddenly, like a like an impulse,

1:22:24you will cause the the lattice

1:22:27that that forms the grain boundary to

1:22:30momentarily soften.

1:22:31And then for about 20 seconds, it will

1:22:33be really, really soft. And that that's

1:22:36And And at that point, you can literally

1:22:38just take a thumb and finger like this,

1:22:40which is what I did, and squish it over.

1:22:42Instantly tightens up again.

1:22:43>> But there's no explanation for what

1:22:45caused the initial force.

1:22:47>> No, because I I was holding it like

1:22:48this. And I I I can't do it.

1:22:51>> that now?

1:22:52>> No. I don't I don't know how I did it. I

1:22:54do know, however,

1:22:56>> that the actual spoon that you did it

1:22:57with?

1:22:58>> Yeah, this this is the spoon.

1:22:59>> it?

1:23:01This is a regular spoon.

1:23:02>> Yeah.

1:23:02>> It's Yeah.

1:23:03>> I want to show you this

1:23:04>> to bend.

1:23:05>> I want to show you this other

1:23:07part here.

1:23:09This is the motivation.

1:23:11So, I was told

1:23:16But more importantly than that, is to

1:23:18take the full spoon that you have.

1:23:21Because this this this is what I was

1:23:22working on.

1:23:23>> one was already weakened, right?

1:23:24>> No.

1:23:25>> No, but but I mean now it is.

1:23:27>> No. That that is the way it is. It's a

1:23:29little spongy.

1:23:30>> Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like that,

1:23:32I just did that.

1:23:33>> Yeah. You're applying

1:23:34>> Straightened it out.

1:23:36>> Yeah.

1:23:37And you have to apply a lot of force to

1:23:39do it.

1:23:39>> A lot. Yeah, I got to really strain.

1:23:41>> Yeah.

1:23:41>> And I have fat thumbs.

1:23:45But once it's like that, I could kind of

1:23:46do that pretty easy.

1:23:47>> Yeah. Well, now of course, you you

1:23:48smoothed it out. So, now try to do it

1:23:51without it being in that position.

1:23:53>> With just one finger?

1:23:54>> No. No. Just like like this. Hold Hold

1:23:57it like that. Hold th- thumb underneath,

1:24:00finger on top. Yeah, and and bend it

1:24:02down.

1:24:02>> No, it's the neck. It's not bending the

1:24:04neck. Yeah.

1:24:07>> The shell shape resists bending.

1:24:09>> It's very hard to bend.

1:24:10>> Yeah. And more importantly, don't hurt

1:24:12your fingers on this.

1:24:13>> Yeah, [clears throat] I can't do it.

1:24:14Well, I I might be able to do it if it

1:24:16was more stable, but it's very hard to

1:24:18do. It's not something that's easy at

1:24:19all.

1:24:19>> with leverage, certainly you can do it.

1:24:21But there there was there was no

1:24:23>> clamp, maybe I could do it.

1:24:24>> Oh, yeah.

1:24:24>> But I mean, I would want to use both

1:24:26hands. I'd want to like get in there.

1:24:27>> Yeah. Yeah. But that's

1:24:29>> No.

1:24:29>> That's not what happens.

1:24:30>> it with a finger, that's very hard to

1:24:32do. And you don't know how he did it.

1:24:34>> Well, so I was in a very weird state of

1:24:37motivation. Cuz we were told that if you

1:24:40could do that without force

1:24:43that you would get this button.

1:24:44>> [laughter]

1:24:46>> Certified warm former?

1:24:47>> Yeah. So so this is called warm warm

1:24:50formering because you're forming this as

1:24:53though it became warm. Cuz it feels it

1:24:55like it feels like putty when it

1:24:57actually warms.

1:24:57>> That's what I had heard that people do

1:24:59with like the necks of them.

1:25:01>> Oh, yeah. No, the neck I wasn't

1:25:02interested in the neck.

1:25:03>> I've seen a guy do that and he told me

1:25:04it was a trick. He goes, "I'm not going

1:25:06to tell you how I do it, but I'm not

1:25:07using magic. It's

1:25:08>> You could just do it.

1:25:09>> And he said he was like doing something

1:25:11like rubbing it with his fingers and it

1:25:12would like it was a specific type of

1:25:14spoon or something like

1:25:16>> But even with this spoon, I mean, you're

1:25:17certainly strong enough to be able to

1:25:18push it over.

1:25:19>> Yeah.

1:25:20>> At at the neck. The shell shape is very

1:25:22difficult to

1:25:23>> Yeah, I can't I can't do it.

1:25:26>> So, I was told if if I

1:25:29>> But look, [clears throat] I had to use

1:25:30both hands.

1:25:31>> Yeah. And you you apply leverage and

1:25:33you're going to feel it tomorrow in your

1:25:34fingers, too.

1:25:35>> Nah, I'll be all right.

1:25:36But yeah.

1:25:37This is um

1:25:39that's very hard to do.

1:25:40>> So, if you could do it, you get a

1:25:42button.

1:25:43So, the next day I was giving a talk to

1:25:45this conference. This was held at a

1:25:46conference. And I imagined myself with

1:25:48my suit on with the button.

1:25:51And it it was like some kind of weird

1:25:53ego thing where I felt I needed to

1:25:55demonstrate to the people in the

1:25:56audience that I can do this stuff.

1:25:58And it and it was so strange because I I

1:26:02I'm not very egotistical and and I'm not

1:26:04self-aggrandizing, either. But there was