Joe Rogan Experience #2506 - Michelle Thaller

0:01Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

0:03>> The Joe Rogan Experience.

0:06>> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY

0:08NIGHT. All day.

0:12>> I like that.

0:14>> Absolutely.

0:15>> It's also there's [music] some things

0:16that are so awesome. It's like that's

0:18awesome. [laughter]

0:19>> I I was I was trying to talk about black

0:21holes to some high school students just

0:23seriously earlier this week and I was I

0:25kept saying, you know, what the f

0:27[laughter]

0:28Yeah. So, I I got nothing to pitch, but

0:31I I uh um I the Shorewood Men's Club, I

0:33was giving a talk there. The Shorewood,

0:35Wisconsin is where I live. The men's

0:37club invited me to give a talk about

0:38astronomy last week, and when I

0:39mentioned I was coming to the show, they

0:41just freaked out. And so, the only thing

0:43I have is my Shorewood Men's Club uh uh

0:46uh water.

0:46>> Well, shout out to the Shorewood Men's

0:48[laughter] Club. That's awesome. [gasps]

0:50That's so cool that you give those

0:51speeches. I love your YouTube talks.

0:54They are fantastic.

0:55>> Oh, thank you. Wow. I have watched

0:59probably every one you've ever done.

1:01I've I've watched at least I mean how

1:02many have you done? I've done I've

1:04watched at least like 10 of them.

1:06>> Yeah. I mean, so I mean pretty much what

1:08I did at at NASA I did a lot of sort of

1:10the science spokesperson stuff and so so

1:13most of that was you know I I'm more on

1:15the NASA videos. I hosted like launch

1:17events. I haven't done much privately on

1:20YouTube. I'm I'm I'm thinking about

1:22starting some stuff. Oh,

1:23>> you should. I I'll Yeah, I'll work on

1:25that. Okay.

1:26>> 100%. [laughter]

1:27>> Thank you.

1:27>> 100%. You said so many things that made

1:29me just go, "What?"

1:31>> Ah,

1:32>> like here's a big one that you said. You

1:33were talking about if the size of Earth,

1:37if the Earth was the dot of an eye in a

1:39book in regular print.

1:41>> Yes.

1:42>> That the Milky Way galaxy would be as

1:45large as the Earth itself.

1:47>> Actually, a little bigger. Yeah. So, I

1:49mean, the thing is this is an

1:50interesting thing about science

1:51communication.

1:53>> [snorts]

1:53>> You say that if if the if the sun were

1:55the size of a dot of an eye and you got

1:57to remember you can fit a million earths

1:59inside the sun, right? This is a huge

2:00thing. So if that's the size of a dot of

2:02an eye on text, then the galaxy would be

2:05the size of the earth. That's when

2:06people's eyes get big and people respond

2:08to it.

2:08>> So it's not just the earth, it's the the

2:10sun. So if the sun was the dot of an

2:11eye.

2:12>> Yes, that's right. So let's let's make

2:13this clear. So the sun were the size of

2:15the dot of an eye on a page of text. So

2:17you could fit a million earths inside

2:19that dot of an eye, then the Milky Way

2:21galaxy would be bigger than the Earth.

2:24>> Yeah. I think

2:26>> So if the Earth was the dot of an eye,

2:28[laughter] then how big is the Milky Way

2:29galaxy? Cuz the sun is how many millions

2:32Earths

2:32>> volume wise, you could fit over a

2:34million Earths inside the sun. Yeah.

2:36Yeah. The the sun is about 800,000 miles

2:38across. You could fit about 110 Earths

2:40across it. The diameter. We do those

2:43things where you show the the

2:44differences between our sun and

2:46different stars and immense stars and

2:49you go bigger and bigger and bigger and

2:51you you get to the point where you're

2:52like I can't my this is not working. I

2:55can't get I can't process this. It's too

2:57kooky.

2:57>> There there's nobody that can process

2:59it. I mean I mean one one of the the the

3:01really kind of you know the thing about

3:02sort of demystifying scientists is the

3:04idea that our brains somehow work any

3:06differently and like we can visualize

3:09what a lightyear is, right? you know, a

3:10lightyear is about six trillion miles.

3:13That, you know, the distance light

3:14travels in a year. No, we're human

3:15beings. We we get used to using the

3:18terms. We get used to, you know, using

3:20the numbers, but but we've got the same

3:22brain as everybody else. Nobody can

3:24visualize what a galaxy really is. And

3:27you can take pictures of them. You can

3:29say the word galaxy, but people have no

3:32idea what what monsters these are. and

3:35and and then with like with the James

3:36Webb Space Telescope, you know, all of a

3:38sudden you're taking pictures of

3:39billions of them and you know, they're

3:43right in front of your eyes. This is not

3:45something that you can argue about. It's

3:47an image and and you see these these

3:50foggy hazes of of of stars, you know,

3:53basically so many stars you can't see

3:54them individually. And that's real. And

3:57and I mean, it still gives me

3:59goosebumps.

4:00>> That's awesome. [laughter]

4:02It gives me goosebumps, too. But it's so

4:04cool that it gives it to you and you

4:06actually study it your whole life.

4:07>> Oh, that's that's that's the whole

4:09point. I I mean, you know, working for

4:10NASA was a huge huge honor. And I mean,

4:13all of us there are doing this. I mean,

4:15we were all science fiction fans. We all

4:17love imagination. Um, you know, we

4:22that was the best thing about working at

4:24NASA was was the joy and and and the the

4:26teamwork and the camaraderie and the

4:28people that you're working with that uh

4:29you know, they they think this is the

4:30best thing in the world to do. Well, I

4:32mean, there's a a real problem that we

4:35have where I think that cities and light

4:38pollution have really for, you know,

4:42it's great that we have cities. It's

4:43wonderful. It's wonderful that we have

4:44all this electricity and that we can see

4:46things at night time, but boy, we have

4:48done ourselves a massive disservice by

4:49not being able to see the stars all the

4:51time. And I think people have kind of

4:53lost the wonder of it when you're only

4:54looking at it as images on your phone or

4:57when, you know, the only time you get it

4:59is on vacation. Occasionally, you look

5:00up in the sky. Wow, look at all the

5:02stars here. It's different here. This is

5:05something that everyone should be

5:08absolutely blown away by. At night, you

5:11have a vision of the most spectacular

5:13thing any human being has ever seen

5:15ever. Just the Milky Way galaxy alone.

5:17It's nuts. It's crazy to think that

5:20those are all stars and that you can't

5:23count them. It's insane. There's so many

5:25of them and it's above you every day.

5:27And we're just blas blas. We're just

5:29like so used to it. We're so dismissive

5:32of it. So it doesn't mean anything. It

5:33It's exciting when someone's excited by

5:36it because I'm like more people need to

5:38get the away from the cities and

5:39just go see how crazy this is that we

5:42are flying through space.

5:45>> Yeah, [laughter]

5:46it is profound. And to be that close, I

5:48mean just looking up, you don't even

5:50need a telescope or a pair of

5:51binoculars. The presence of something so

5:54much larger than you. But I mean, if

5:56you've if you've listened to some of my

5:57my podcasts, and I think you you know

5:59that the big deal for me is that you are

6:02such a part of this. You are such an

6:05intimate, intrinsic part of this. It's

6:07not we're separate from space. You know,

6:09we look up and there's something

6:10separate from us. You know, that's the

6:12story of us up there. you know, the the

6:14only way the universe makes atoms, the

6:17only way that makes, you know, the

6:18chemicals all around us, you know, the

6:20the aluminum, the iron, the oxygen, the

6:22carbon, you know, the phosphorus,

6:24everything that makes me up, you know,

6:25the only thing in the universe that

6:26makes atoms is the interior of a star.

6:29It's the only place where nuclear fusion

6:31puts atoms together. So, so everything

6:34that you are, the the story is up there.

6:37And, you know, so you're you're not

6:38looking at something separate and

6:40distant, you know. I mean astrophysics

6:42is the story of you know the end of your

6:44nose literally I mean I mean we are part

6:47of this beautiful bigger thing

6:49>> that's a weird concept the I mean that's

6:52from that old song you know we are

6:53stardust

6:54>> yeah we're golden to get ourselves back

6:58yeah um that that's real that's what we

7:00are and that's what all life is and that

7:02that's just a very strange thing for

7:04people to wrap their heads around as

7:06we're sort of slowly getting a greater

7:09and greater understanding of the

7:11complexity of the universe itself which

7:13is relatively recent in terms of h human

7:16history. I mean we really didn't know

7:19all all what we just we know now because

7:22the James Webb telescope is so crazy

7:25where they're seeing these new these

7:26galaxies they're confusing like why are

7:28they formed so early.

7:29>> Oh yeah. Oh I I I gave a talk about

7:31those just a few weeks ago. The the red

7:33dots. Yes. And they never let

7:34astronomers name anything. Right. You're

7:36seeing something so dramatic and they

7:37call it the little red dots, right? you

7:39know, or you know, there's a storm on

7:40Jupiter that's three times the size of

7:42the Earth with 400 mph winds, and they

7:44call it, you know, the red spot.

7:45>> How come no one's allowed to name them?

7:47>> Well, naming conventions, uh, well,

7:49they're they're complex. So, so if you

7:51if you discover a comet, you get to know

7:53if you discover an asteroid, you get to

7:55name it. If you discover a comet, the

7:57comet is named after you. But anything

7:59else has to be done by international

8:00committee. And so, you know, they they

8:03because of that, things don't end up

8:04with very interesting names. They all

8:05end up with, you know, catalog numbers,

8:07you you know, basically phone numbers.

8:09>> What do they call that weird hexagon on

8:11Jupiter? Is it a hexagon?

8:12>> Saturn. Hexagon. I think they call that,

8:15you know, the hexagon on Saturn. They

8:17don't even they don't really the

8:18hexagonal storm. It's fantastic. Uh you

8:21could fit about two Earths across that.

8:23And it it it's a it's a hex it's a

8:25hexagon jetream basically. You've got

8:28super fast moving winds around the pole

8:30of Saturn. and and Saturn is so cold,

8:33the gas is so cold that there's almost

8:35no friction in the gas. So unlike here,

8:38you know, the jetream here, there's kind

8:40of this joke. Oh, there's a picture.

8:42Hey, that's fantastic. Um,

8:44>> that's wild.

8:45>> One of my favorite pictures NASA ever

8:47took. If you look at the little dot in

8:49the middle of that, the sort of little

8:50eye of the storm. We actually have a

8:52picture from Cassini where you can see

8:54the sun glinting off of hundreds of mile

8:58high. There you go. It's down in the

8:59bottom there. It's in the bottom in the

9:00middle. Yeah, that picture. One more

9:03over. Yeah, that that that's a picture

9:04uh from the Cassini space mission.

9:06That's a real image.

9:07>> Wow.

9:07>> And that's the eye of that storm. And

9:10and those are, like I said, hundreds of

9:12miles high banks of clouds catching the

9:14sunlight and the poles of Saturn. And

9:16you know, we did that. We we went there.

9:19We flew over that storm.

9:20>> That's crazy. And uh uh and and yeah, I

9:22mean as amazing as the storm is, it's um

9:25it's at least fairly well understood as

9:28a very low temperature jetream. You

9:29know, I mean, you may be familiar here.

9:31People kind of joke about like, you

9:32know, the weather's the same. A week

9:33from now, the weather will be about the

9:34same as it is now. There patterns that

9:36get set up in in the jetream of the

9:37Earth and you you take away all the heat

9:39and all the friction and it forms this

9:41this beautiful storm.

9:43>> What why what is the theories why it

9:45forms a hexagon?

9:46>> It's it's something called a standing

9:48wave. the the the the the jetream

9:50basically sets up a wave inside this

9:52circulation and and I'm I I will admit

9:54I'm not an atmospheric specialist, but

9:56that that's what I know. And and and

9:58that wave kind of kind of makes this

9:59hexagonal shape and and then you cool

10:02everything down without friction and

10:03that's how the whole thing works. They

10:05they have done computer simulations of

10:08very fastm moving jet streams under the

10:10conditions of Saturn and you can get

10:11this sort of shape to set up.

10:13>> Wow.

10:14>> God, it's so fascinating. And it's so

10:16fascinating that we think of that as

10:18being so far away.

10:19>> That's just right in our neighborhood.

10:20>> It's just right there. It's super hard

10:23to get to. Takes a [laughter] long time,

10:25but it's just right there.

10:26>> Well, we're hoping to launch, when I say

10:28we, NASA's hoping to launch a new

10:30mission to one of the moons of Saturn.

10:32Uh hopefully in in like 2028. It'll take

10:34it something like, you know, six, seven

10:36years to get out to Saturn. But there's

10:37a there's that giant moon of Saturn,

10:39Titan, which has a thick atmosphere.

10:41It's the only place where the air

10:42pressure the air pressure is actually

10:44even a little bit greater than the room

10:45here. And uh um it's it's very cold. You

10:49know, it's it's you know almost close to

10:50300 degrees below zero, but it's got

10:52this thick atmosphere and tons of

10:53organic molecules and evidence of liquid

10:55water below the surface. It's one of the

10:57places that that might be friendly for

10:59life. And so they're they're designing,

11:00have you heard about this? It's called

11:01Dragonfly. It's a it's an octacopter.

11:03It's a big drone. There you go. Perfect.

11:06And so so so Dragonfly is going to be

11:09this big opticopter that we're going to

11:11land on this moon Titan. We've already

11:12landed on this moon once with the

11:14Cassini mission. And it's got this this

11:16really kick-ass uh chemical uh

11:19laboratory inside to look for the

11:21conditions for life, you know, anything,

11:23you know, that we might be able to find

11:24and and obviously sample more than one

11:26site. You actually fly around and and go

11:28to different places. There's rain, there

11:30are oceans, there are rivers. The only

11:31place we know there are open, you know,

11:33great lakesized lakes on Titan.

11:35>> Wow. Wow.

11:35>> But it's so cold that it's not uh liquid

11:38water. It's actually liquid natural gas.

11:39Liquid methane and ethane. Yeah. [sighs]

11:42Yeah. And again, you know, the the

11:45we we've already landed there. We

11:47actually sent a probe there as part of

11:48the Cassini mission to land on Titan. I

11:50mean, it's just badass that you know

11:53that that we humans have been there.

11:55That that's a that's an artist

11:56conception, but that's what it would

11:57look like. You know, we we sent a probe

11:59there. You know, it took a bunch of

12:00readings and then and eventually froze

12:02to death. But uh but but some of the

12:04readings that it took were intriguing

12:07about the possibility of life on Titan.

12:09>> Didn't the Russians land something on

12:11Venus?

12:12>> Yeah. Well, more than once. Yeah.

12:13They're the the Soviet Union is the only

12:15nation you former Soviet Union now that

12:17ever landed on Venus. And landing on

12:20Venus is way hard. [laughter]

12:22>> They [clears throat] got crazy pictures,

12:23too.

12:23>> The surface temperature is about a

12:24thousand degrees and the air pressure is

12:27similar to being about a mile below the

12:29ocean.

12:30>> That's a photo.

12:30>> Yeah, it's a photo. Yep. That's real.

12:32And it's a photo taken in a thousand

12:34degree temperature.

12:35>> Yes. [laughter] Didn't last long. But uh

12:38um everything is crushed flat. I mean

12:41the the landscape is just crushed flat

12:43by that you know huge pressure. Uh you

12:46know this incredible dense atmosphere.

12:48The clouds are sulfuric acid. That's why

12:50it looks yellow. That's real. Uh you

12:52know sulfuric acid clouds. I mean it is

12:53like you know classic vision of hell. It

12:56it's it's it's heavy and deep and uh and

12:59dense and sulfuric acid. What's so

13:02interesting too that our understanding

13:04of planets in terms of like just what's

13:06in our solar system, they're all

13:08different. They vary so much and this is

13:10just all we know about the known

13:12universe in terms of planets. Is it

13:14possible that there could be some

13:15planets out there that are set up

13:17completely different than the planets in

13:19our solar system?

13:20>> Oh, absolutely. Um, one of my favorite

13:22websites, just for fun, I mean, so the

13:24um, it changes every day how many

13:26planets around other stars we know

13:27about, we call them exoplanets, exterior

13:29planets. Um, I think we're up to about

13:335,000 that we know of.

13:34>> When did we start noticing them?

13:36>> Um, so this was at least detecting them.

13:38>> Yeah. Yeah. This is something I was been

13:40involved with ever since I was in

13:41college. When when I was in college, my

13:44uh my research adviser was a man named

13:45David Leam and he was trying to to find

13:48the first evidence. I mean, we we

13:49figured other stars have planets. I

13:51mean, it can't be just us, but but

13:53they're hard to see. They're tiny.

13:55They're dark. I mean, compared to a

13:57star, right? Right? I mean, planets

13:58don't glow themselves, right? So, they

14:00just reflect starlight. I mean, we we

14:02literally said it was like trying to see

14:04a firefly around a search light from 200

14:06miles away, right? How would you do it?

14:08And uh I mean, now we're actually

14:10getting so good at it, we find more

14:12every every week, almost every day. I

14:14mean, pretty soon it's going to be I I

14:16think thousands of new planets every

14:17single year. And um and

14:20>> do you have actual images? So, for the

14:22most part, we don't have images, but

14:24that doesn't mean we don't have really

14:25cool uh uh observations, including the

14:28chemistry of their atmospheres. This is

14:30really amazing to me. So, they're so

14:32tiny, it's hard to actually get a pixel.

14:34They're smaller than a pixel. But when

14:36these things pass in front of their

14:37star, right? So, there's a star and they

14:39they they pass in front of it. So,

14:41you're looking at this thing pass in

14:43front of the star, it makes a tiny

14:44little solar eclipse. It goes by, it

14:45blocks a little bit of the star light.

14:47And we find them that way. We find the

14:49stars twinkling as little planets go

14:51around them again and again. They have

14:53to come back three times for us to say

14:54it's a planet. Otherwise, it could be a

14:56spot on the star or something else. And

14:59um the the amazing thing is that the

15:02starlight will shine through the

15:03atmosphere of that planet and we can

15:05actually we can actually probe the

15:07chemistry of the atmosphere. So we find

15:09planets that have you know they're the

15:11size of the earth about the temperature

15:12of the earth. They have evidence of

15:14water vapor, carbon dioxide, oxygen. And

15:17then uh last year there was this

15:19fantastic controversial discovery. I

15:21mean it's it's very real. We need to

15:23follow it up. Um we think we're starting

15:25to see the evidence of organic

15:26molecules. It's it's it's it's not, you

15:28know, a very strong signal yet. And this

15:31this this was this was a press release

15:32from the James Webb Space Telescope. And

15:35there were some scientists that wondered

15:37if these could be organic molecules that

15:40that that might someday be traceable

15:41even to the presence of life. they they

15:43they resembled something that plankton

15:45might might give off on an ocean world.

15:48And then of course I the rest of the

15:49scientists said the data is not good

15:51enough yet. We need much better

15:53observations before you can say that.

15:55You know, we could maybe believe it's an

15:56organic carbon-based molecule, but we

15:58don't know which one it is yet. So, you

16:00know, I mean, stay tuned. I mean, I

16:02would never have thought the first

16:04evidence of life outside the Earth, like

16:07a really hard chemical scientific

16:09evidence, would be on a planet around

16:10another star. I thought we maybe find on

16:12Mars or on some of the moons of Jupiter

16:14and Saturn. But now with the James Webb

16:16Space Telescope and the telescopes that

16:17will come afterwards, we might be able

16:20to actually, you know, get get enough of

16:22a sense of the atmosphere of these

16:23planets to start looking for life

16:25science. Yeah.

16:26>> So the sun, the star is passing light

16:30through this little tiny thing that's

16:32smaller than a pixel and through the

16:34atmosphere where the light passes

16:36through. What are we using to detect

16:38that? It's a technique called

16:39spectroscopy and it's a really really

16:42powerful thing. I This is what most

16:43scientists do. As as beautiful as images

16:46are of a gorgeous galaxy or a star.

16:51That's not really what we do. We look at

16:52these little squiggly lines. We get very

16:54excited. We we let the light from the

16:57star pass through um a grading that that

16:59actually draws it into a rainbow. You

17:01take takes that white light. You've seen

17:02pictures of like prism, you know, dark

17:04side of the moon, Pink Floyd. You know,

17:06white light goes in, rainbow comes out.

17:08If you measure really really carefully

17:10how much light is coming in every color,

17:13you can tell astounding things. You you

17:15can tell how hot the star is, how fast

17:17it's rotating, uh in some cases, how far

17:20away a galaxy is. That's how we measure

17:22how far away they are from us in space.

17:24And you can measure the chemistry

17:26molecule by molecule. You can tell

17:28exactly what atoms and molecules are in

17:30that object. Here we go. Look at that.

17:33So what you're amazing person by the way

17:36that that's incredible. Thank you so

17:38much. Um [laughter]

17:40>> every every every element carbon,

17:42nitrogen, oxygen has a fingerprint in

17:45the rainbow and it's like you know it's

17:47that there's nothing else like it. You

17:49know that you see carbon and nitrogen if

17:51you see these colors of the rainbow

17:52shining at that particular light. And

17:55it's not just simple things like carbon,

17:57nitrogen, oxygen, but it's it's water

17:58vapor, carbon dioxide, um organic

18:01molecules. Everybody has their

18:02fingerprint in the rainbow. And so when

18:05when the starlight shines through the

18:07atmosphere, there you go. That's how we

18:09tell what these things are made of. You

18:10know, this is a dying star. This is

18:12actually in the Karina Nebula. And uh

18:14the most the one of the most luminous

18:16stars there is. And we we pass the light

18:18through a rainbow. And then looking

18:20really really carefully at how much

18:22light comes at every color, you can pick

18:23apart exactly what it's made of.

18:26>> Wow.

18:26>> Yeah. Did Did you know that you know

18:28helium you know the element helium,

18:29right? You you may be familiar that the

18:31the Greek the Greek sun god's name is

18:33helios. Helium is an element we

18:35discovered on the sun before we ever

18:37knew it was here in in in the the turn

18:39of the last century in the late 1800s

18:41when they were passing sunlight through

18:42a prism and they were looking at all

18:44these patterns of light. There was one

18:46chemical that we'd never seen before

18:47here. And so they named it after the

18:49sun, helium. It was on the sun but not

18:51here. We we never knew the helium was

18:53here. That was found later. It was later

18:55we found it, you know, in like, you

18:56know, a natural gas, you know,

18:58radioactive decay. Helium is such a

19:00light gas. It just leaves the Earth. It

19:01just doesn't stick around. And so, you

19:03know, helium, we saw this this pattern

19:05of colors in the sun's light. We were

19:07like, what what the hell is that? And it

19:09turned out to be a new element we'd

19:10never found before.

19:11>> What year was that?

19:12>> We should look this up. I don't know

19:14exactly, but if we Google what year was

19:16helium found, um, I'm sure we can find

19:18[laughter] it. Well, I mean, I've been

19:20thinking about helium balloons and

19:22people who, you know, suck helium, make

19:24their voice go really high.

19:25>> We didn't even know about helium until

19:27>> 1868. There we go.

19:29>> That's nuts. So, they figured out that

19:32there was helium in the sun in 1868.

19:36>> Long before we ever identified it on

19:37this planet.

19:39>> That is so nuts.

19:41>> Yeah. Just think what's out there. We

19:43didn't even know about helium. It's not

19:45just that it's what's out there, but

19:46that there's people out there that can

19:48figure out how to do that. In 1868,

19:51shout out to Pierre Jeansen,

19:54uh, a French astronomer who figured it

19:57out.

19:58>> When you when you think about, you know,

20:00I know that one thing you you you love

20:01is the idea of uh, you know, Einstein

20:03and time being different and all that.

20:06>> You know, they figured all of this out

20:08around like like 1908. It was more than

20:10a hundred years ago. And you know, we

20:12don't really even have a better thing

20:14yet. You know, I mean, they they they

20:16figured out that time isn't the way that

20:18we experience it just by really simple,

20:22brilliant thought processes,

20:24observations and some years ago, 100 a

20:26little more than 120 years ago. Yeah.

20:28Incredible.

20:30>> The idea that the faster you go, the

20:32slower time is is so hard to wrap one's

20:36head around. And one of the things that

20:38I heard you talking about, you were

20:39talking about GPS satellites

20:41>> and you were saying that GPS satellites

20:43because they're going about what are

20:44they going like 20,000 miles an hour or

20:46something like that. So actually if we

20:48want to break this down a little bit

20:49there there are a couple different

20:50effects about time and and one of the

20:53things that that you know NASA does is

20:55we you know calibrates the GPS

20:57satellites and the signal coming and and

20:58you wouldn't I mean I think I heard that

21:00I mean within within a day if we didn't

21:03take into account the time difference

21:05these things are in that we we'd be

21:07about six miles off I mean in a in a

21:09single day.

21:09>> That's crazy.

21:10>> Oh yeah it's it's a big deal.

21:11>> That's so crazy.

21:13>> Yeah.

21:14>> That's so crazy. And that's just above

21:17us.

21:18>> Time really is something. I mean, this

21:20this is not a theory. Time time is is is

21:23variable depending on how fast you're

21:24going and also how far off the Earth's

21:26surface you are or how I should say how

21:27far away from a big gravity body you

21:29are. In the case of the GPS satellites,

21:31there's there's there's two things going

21:33on. And it's it's it's kind of fun

21:35because it's actually the reverse for

21:36the astronauts. So, let's want to break

21:38this down. This is really fun. Okay.

21:42We have clocks that are so accurate that

21:44if you move about two feet above where

21:47you if we had a clock on this desk and

21:49then if we moved it up about two feet,

21:51we could actually detect time flowing

21:53differently because you're just that far

21:55away from the Earth's gravity. Just two

21:57feet. Your head and the and your feet,

22:01we spend most of our lives say standing

22:03up are actually going through time at

22:05slightly different rates. If the farther

22:07away you are from a gravitational

22:09source, I mean you you probably like

22:10movies like Interstellar, right? With

22:12with you know Matthew McConna,

22:13>> remember the big black hole? And the

22:15closer they get to the big black hole,

22:17the slower time goes.

22:18>> That's not a theory. That's something we

22:20can actually measure with clocks. And a

22:22black hole has so much gravity it does

22:24it a lot more dramatically. But it's

22:26happening right in this room. Seriously,

22:28your head is in a different time frame

22:30than your feet right now.

22:31>> That's nuts.

22:32>> Yeah. And you and I mean it's

22:33measurable. you you you need extremely

22:36accurate clocks. But in the case of the

22:39GPS satellites, the GPS satellites are

22:41in what we call a medium orbit. They're

22:42not as far away as the geostationary

22:44satellites, but they're they're not

22:46actually going that fast. They're only

22:48going about 9,000 m an hour around the

22:50Earth. The the astronauts in the space

22:52station, by the way, are going much

22:53faster. They're they're going more like

22:55let's say approximately 20,000 mph. So,

22:57the GPS satellites are going a little

22:59slower and and Yeah. Okay. 8,000 m an

23:01hour is is a lot. And that does slow

23:03your time down, but the bigger effect

23:05for GPS satellites is how far away from

23:07the Earth they are.

23:09>> Wow.

23:09>> We're actually going slower in time than

23:11they are because we're closer to the

23:13Earth's gravity. And they're so far

23:15away, they're actually going a little

23:16faster than we are in time. Now, they're

23:19also slowed down by their fast velocity.

23:22The the faster you go, the slower your

23:24time goes. But people don't realize

23:26there's another factor and that's how

23:28far away you are from gravity. For the

23:30astronauts, the astronauts are closer to

23:32the Earth, right? So they're actually

23:33not so far away as the satellites and

23:35they're going much faster. So for the

23:37astronauts, it's the it's the motion.

23:38It's the time dilation from the motion

23:40that's a bigger effect. Uh if you are on

23:42the space station for a year, you come

23:44back about 1/100th of a second younger

23:46than you should be. [laughter]

23:47And uh you know, obviously that's not a

23:49big deal, but it's easily measurable.

23:51>> Wow.

23:52>> And in the case of the satellites, you

23:54wouldn't get the right location. The

23:55data wouldn't be right unless we take

23:56into account two things. How fast

23:58they're going. The closer to the speed

24:00of light you go, the slower time goes.

24:02But also how far away from the

24:04gravitational pull of the Earth they

24:05are. The the closer you are into

24:07gravity, the slower time goes.

24:09>> I think the weirdest thing that I've

24:10ever heard anybody say is that all time

24:12exists currently.

24:15>> That's Einstein. I mean, that goes back

24:17that goes back 120 years.

24:19>> That's such a bizarre thought. We don't

24:22know if it's true but but it's I mean

24:24Einstein really thought there wasn't

24:26much of a way around it because he said

24:28okay well if everything is going at

24:30different velocities compared to

24:31everything else right I mean it's a

24:33great question a kid can ask how fast am

24:35I going through space you know and the

24:38earth you if you're on the equator of

24:40the earth that goes around at about uh u

24:42you know about about 1 th000 miles an

24:44hour you know and then you know we go we

24:46go around the sun at about 67,000 miles

24:48an hour in our orbit the sun's going

24:50around a galaxy about half a million

24:52miles an hour around the galaxy. The

24:55galaxy is going towards a galactic

24:56cluster at more than a million miles an

24:58hour.

25:00But you know how fast are we going

25:02really? And the the only thing you can

25:05measure is how fast are you going

25:06relative to something else? There's no

25:08answer.

25:10You know, how fast am I going? Well, I

25:12mean, am I still or am I actually

25:13traveling close to the speed of light

25:14right now? I don't know. So, so Einstein

25:17said the only way he could really think

25:18about how that would work is if the

25:20universe was just one big thing. You

25:23know, all of time and space exists in a

25:25big whole thing. There's only one now.

25:29Einstein famously said, "The past,

25:31present, and future are, you know,

25:33persistently annoying illusions."

25:36Now, again, do we know this to be true?

25:40At the moment, we don't have any better

25:41physics. And and I doubt the physics

25:43will get any less weird than that.

25:46But yeah, I mean I mean that's sort of

25:49the way modern physics thinks the

25:50universe may be is is a big whole thing

25:54that started from beginning to end and

25:56is all nowish.

25:58>> But if that's the case, so subjectively

26:01we can measure

26:04things. We can measure time but but what

26:08are we measuring

26:10if it's I mean are are we

26:12[clears throat] making artificial time

26:14constraints? Are we are we doing it

26:15oursel? When we're when we create a

26:17clock, we create a watch

26:19>> and the watch is, you know, 24 hours a

26:21day it's running. What is it what is it

26:24measuring?

26:25>> Yeah.

26:26>> Right.

26:27>> That is exactly the question Albert

26:29Einstein asked. That that is that is a

26:31deep excellent question.

26:34And and so that was the problem. I mean

26:36in a famous thought experiment, Einstein

26:38made a clock by setting up two mirrors

26:40and having light bounce between the two

26:41mirrors. And that was the tick of the

26:43clock. Tick tick tick tick tick. And and

26:46the problem was that, you know, that's

26:47how he started thinking about the speed

26:49of light is that if you had this thing

26:50in a spaceship that was going a huge

26:51fraction of the speed of light, then a

26:53person standing watching it go by would

26:55actually watch the light kind of trace

26:57out a pattern like this because you it's

26:59it's it's actually ticking between the

27:00mirrors, but the mirrors are moving

27:01along. And so you see the light make

27:03this sort of bouncy movement. And that

27:05means it's actually traveled farther

27:08than the person on the ground who thinks

27:09that the mirrors are just sort of the

27:11the light is making just a straight up

27:12and down line from mirror to mirror.

27:14That that question that you asked is

27:16what completely

27:18I mean it completely revolutionized

27:20physics. Everything fell apart when

27:22people said, "How do you even measure

27:24time? What does it mean to make a clock?

27:27What are we measuring?"

27:29>> I still don't understand what we're

27:30measuring.

27:31>> Oh lord. [laughter] Yeah.

27:32>> I I get it. I mean we I don't know if I

27:35have an answer for you. I don't think

27:36anybody does. But but but here's the

27:38deal. So the the clock in Einstein's

27:42experiment, so the the clock has, you

27:45know, two mirrors and there's light

27:46bouncing between it and then that's the

27:48distance that it travels in one tick,

27:49>> right?

27:51But now you put this mirror, you put

27:52that clock on a spaceship and the

27:54spaceship's going really fast. And as it

27:56goes by, you see that that that clock as

27:58as it streams by you really fast, you

28:00see the light make this motion.

28:02And and this line is actually longer

28:05than that line. This this line if you

28:07measure it, that's actually a longer

28:09line that I drew than the the original

28:11one between just the two mirrors because

28:12now it's at an angle.

28:14And this is what made Einstein say time

28:17has to change. If anything moves, the

28:20tick of a clock changes. What? However

28:22you measure time, whatever time is,

28:24whether you measure it with a bouncing

28:26clock or whether you measure it with a

28:27vibrating atom like we do in the Bureau

28:29of Standards, or whether you measure

28:31with a spring that's slowly unwinding in

28:33a wristwatch.

28:36Anything you can do to measure one

28:38moment to the next changes when motion

28:40is involved. There's no way to get

28:42around it. It's not just the

28:44measurement. It's time itself is

28:47changing. any way we have to measure

28:49this thing we call time. And I have to

28:52tell you, Joe, I I don't think we have

28:54an answer to what time is. What are we

28:57measuring?

29:00I think I think right there, I think

29:02you're asking for the next revolution in

29:04physics that we don't have yet. I really

29:06mean that. So when we're measuring time

29:08currently, like when I w look down on my

29:10watch, I'm measuring time in this

29:14particular space, like where I am, what

29:17altitude I'm at, how fast I'm moving,

29:21>> and the watch just does a reasonable job

29:23of calculating all that.

29:25>> And that's and that's you. I mean,

29:26that's what you see here, sitting still

29:28with your watch looking at it.

29:29>> If someone's flying by at close to the

29:31speed of light,

29:32>> they won't see you measure time the same

29:34way. Yeah. But you said something else

29:36too that freaked me out that [laughter]

29:39that if you traveled at the speed of

29:41light, the the problem would be you

29:43would have infinite mass.

29:46>> Well, anything with mass. Yeah. Yeah.

29:48That's the thing.

29:48>> So, if a person was in a spaceship and

29:51it traveled the speed of light, that

29:52spaceship would have infinite mass.

29:55>> It's basically it's what makes

29:57accelerating up to the speed of light

29:58impossible. That anything with mass

30:01can't travel at the speed of light. I

30:03mean the the equations blow up. But what

30:04does infinite mass mean? Do you have

30:06more mass than the whole universe? What

30:07the hell is that? As you approach the

30:10speed of light, if you have mass, it

30:12takes more and more energy to accelerate

30:14you even just a little bit more. So you

30:15never get to the speed of light. You

30:17know, you're speed you're going 99.9%

30:19the speed of light. Okay, I want to go a

30:21little faster. It it takes more and more

30:23energy each little tiny step you make.

30:25So it's it basically you never get to

30:27the speed of light. It it takes an

30:28infinite amount of energy.

30:30So, you know, when it comes to things

30:32like interstellar travel, I I I don't

30:35think we're ever going to take a

30:36spaceship and accelerate it to the speed

30:38of light, I I I mean, I we might get

30:41very close. There are particles in space

30:43that do have mass, like nutrinos, tiny

30:45little bits of mass. They travel very

30:46close to the speed of light, but they

30:47don't travel at the speed of light.

30:50But to me, you know, I I think that the

30:53the the idea of traveling interstellar

30:56distances or even intergalactic

30:57distances, you know, the thing that

30:59starts to really get me is the question

31:00of this this what is space and what is

31:02time at all? Quantum entanglement,

31:04>> right? Glad you brought that up.

31:05>> Oh, yeah.

31:07Uh I I [laughter]

31:09I'm going to say I I hope your listeners

31:11I I I I don't want to get I don't want

31:12to I I want people to come along with

31:14us.

31:14>> Oh, they're coming along.

31:16>> Yeah. I I don't want to say things that

31:17sound so stupid. They're like, you know,

31:18why are they saying this? So, please

31:20stop me if we need some more background.

31:21>> This does not sound stupid in any way,

31:23shape, or form,

31:24>> but the idea of quantum entanglement, we

31:26should explain that to people.

31:28>> Yeah.

31:28>> And what it essentially means is that

31:31things are entangled, they're connected

31:33at regardless of the distance.

31:35>> Yes.

31:35>> And it could be an immeasurable amount

31:38of distance like

31:39>> any distance

31:39>> like

31:40>> Yeah. Literally the beginning of the

31:43universe distance like 13.8 8 billion

31:46life years away distance.

31:48>> You're entangled with that.

31:50>> It's amazing because once again, let's

31:52go back to the idea that this this is a

31:54real experimental fact, right? I mean, a

31:57lot of times this this crazy stuff that,

31:59you know, scientists will will say this

32:01stuff and and people hear it, you know,

32:03for the first time and they say, "Well,

32:04that that sounds like idiotic. That

32:05sounds stupid. Why where did they get

32:07that from?" And the the idea that time

32:12changes is now it's one of the most

32:15commonly proven facts every day. Like I

32:17said, we needed to calibrate the GPS

32:18satellites. It's easy to measure.

32:21Quantum entanglement was something that

32:23that even Albert Einstein 100 years ago

32:26um he understood that quantum mechanics

32:28was pointing that way, but he really

32:29didn't like it. He called it he called

32:31it spooky action at a distance. He hated

32:33it because he realized that quantum

32:35mechan mechanics had this implication

32:37that that if things could somehow be

32:39connected quantum mechanically, you

32:41could take them any distance away from

32:43each other and they would somehow be

32:44able to respond to each other

32:46instantaneously with with no time

32:48difference.

32:49And you know, he didn't think that would

32:51ever actually happen. And then back in

32:52the in the in the mid 1990s, we started

32:54to do experiments with atoms and we

32:57found out that it was real. That uh uh

33:00it it can start off pretty simply. you

33:02you have two atoms that are in an orbit

33:04around you know so an atom has a nucleus

33:07of protons and electrons in the middle

33:09sorry [laughter] an atom has a nucleus

33:12of protons and neutrons the electrons

33:14are flying around in orbits around the

33:15uh the atom um two electrons can be in

33:19the same orbit only if they are spinning

33:21in different directions they they have

33:22an an angular momentum it's called spin

33:25and the only way these two electrons can

33:26fit in that orbit together is if they're

33:28spinning one is spinning in an upward

33:29direction one's say spinning in in a

33:31downward ction. Hate the broken finger.

33:34Um, so if if you take these electrons

33:36out of the atom and you can do that, you

33:39know that they're in different spins

33:41because they had to be to be in that

33:42that orbit together. So now you separate

33:44them. You can separate them by any

33:46distance you want. You can separate them

33:47by centimeters in a laboratory. The

33:50Chinese have done this up to the space

33:51station that they run in back. You you

33:53could conceivably do it to another

33:55galaxy. If you take those electrons and

33:57you separate them, you know that they

33:59were spinning in opposite directions. So

34:01if you take an electric field and you

34:02change the spin of one, the other one

34:05immediately changes in response

34:07>> regardless of the distance.

34:08>> Regardless of the distance and we know

34:10this to be true. We've done this. And

34:14the amazing thing is the universe is

34:16saying these two things are the same

34:19quantum mechanical system. They're

34:21basically the same object. They're

34:22connected to each other. They're

34:23entangled together. And it doesn't

34:26matter. Space and time don't matter. You

34:29can you separate them in space any

34:32distance you want. How does that work?

34:35The universe says the space and time

34:36between them doesn't matter. They're the

34:38same system.

34:41To me, that's the real intriguing thing

34:43about you. Could a civilization learn

34:45how to harness that, you know, you're

34:48not really even having to worry about

34:49traveling from one part to another. Have

34:51did you watch the um uh the threebody

34:53problem show? Yeah. So, so you have

34:55these things called sons, right? and

34:57sofans are entangled to this alien

34:59civilization and they can respond

35:02instantaneously because they're

35:03entangled. Yes. I mean I mean that's

35:06fantastic science and as far as I can

35:07tell that that could be theoretically

35:10possible. Yeah.

35:11>> Well, that's what's bonkers is that we

35:14are made out of all this stuff that's

35:16entangled.

35:17>> What's it entangled to? Is it entangled

35:18to stuff inside a black hole right now?

35:20Is it entangled to stuff that is on the

35:22other side of the universe from us? If

35:24the big bang had all of this stuff in a

35:26small volume at once, are we entangled

35:28to everything in some way?

35:33>> Seriously.

35:34>> Seriously.

35:34>> I mean I mean are is a part of me

35:36quantum mechanically right now in the

35:38Andromeda galaxy? Yeah, actually that

35:41would be the implication.

35:43I mean talk about

35:46I don't think we understand yet what

35:47reality is. I really don't. What does it

35:51mean? Are we all somehow the same

35:53particle entangled to each other? You

35:56know, are we connected to everything

35:59all at once?

36:01I mean, that could be where physics is

36:04taking us now.

36:05>> That's bananas. It's very difficult to

36:08think about when you you think you're a

36:11person in Austin. My feet are on the

36:13ground. Yeah.

36:13>> Here I am touching this desk. I'm going

36:15to get in my car later and go get

36:17something to eat.

36:17>> No kidding. You got to feed the cat,

36:19right?

36:19>> Yeah. But that's not really what's going

36:20on.

36:22It's way more complex, way bigger. And

36:24you were speculating that that could be

36:27how some advanced, super advanced

36:30intelligent life form travels.

36:33>> It's always been more compelling to me

36:35than the idea of taking a spaceship and

36:37traveling somewhere.

36:38>> That seems super crude.

36:39>> Yeah.

36:40>> That seems like the idea of making a

36:42horse fly.

36:43>> Yeah. Yeah. I I you know we we we talked

36:46about that movie Interstellar because

36:48there were a lot of good teaching

36:49moments in that movie for for a

36:51physicist. You know the idea that time

36:52really does slow down close to a black

36:54hole. And again we we observe this when

36:56we observe things orbiting close to a

36:58black hole. You can tell that that

36:59happens and the idea that this advanced

37:02civilization that we never actually see

37:04in the movie somehow communicates

37:05through basically space and time itself

37:08through gravity. Um, you know, that's

37:10how Matthew McConna is able to even like

37:12go back, you know, in time and space to

37:14help his daughter solve, you know,

37:16gravity and all that. You know, I was

37:18like I was like, I wonder I wonder if

37:20that's really more what it be like, you

37:22know, advanced civilizations.

37:24I mean, you got to think, right? I mean,

37:26you look around the earth and there are,

37:28you know, things like grasshoppers and

37:29hamsters that are fantastic, incredibly

37:32complex beings, but I mean, you try to

37:34teach them quantum mechanics or ask them

37:35to, you know, crochet a blanket or

37:37whatever. They they don't have the

37:38capacity. And you you've got to think

37:40that there's the similar jump where I

37:43mean, we don't even know the right

37:44questions to ask that sort of a

37:46civilization,

37:47>> you know? I mean, can they see the

37:49universe as a whole thing? Do they know

37:51that they're connected to everything?

37:53And can they somehow use that to travel?

37:56You know, maybe.

37:57>> Maybe. And if you just extrapolate, if

37:59you just think about where we've gone

38:02from primitive man to what we're

38:04currently experiencing, and you take

38:06that thousands of years, millions of

38:09years, whatever it is,

38:10>> yeah,

38:10>> you you keep going. And as long as

38:13civilization

38:15gets rid of war and figures out a way to

38:17not die of disease and natural disaster,

38:19you could potentially continue this

38:22process of technological innovation for

38:25millions of years. And you would imagine

38:26that it would go exponentially

38:29greater and greater in its ability to do

38:31things.

38:32>> Yeah. and its ability to

38:34not just

38:37not even things that we can imagine like

38:41we have a crude understanding amazing

38:44understanding of the universe but crude

38:47in comparison

38:48to what's potentially out there. Well,

38:51we could pot we could potentially be

38:54observing

38:55in a physical way every planet on every

38:58star one day.

39:01But we're not we can't even think of

39:03that as being a possibility now. But but

39:06what we're doing right now is insane to

39:09people that lived in the 1400s.

39:10>> Yeah.

39:12If

39:12>> you showed someone from the 1400s a

39:14nuclear power plant, they'd be like,

39:16"What the are you guys doing?"

39:18Like, "What is this?" See, if you showed

39:19them a nuclear detonate, if you showed

39:21them FaceTime on a phone, they'd be

39:23like, "This is insanity."

39:25>> I just got on a little metal tube and

39:26came here from Milwaukee and I'll fly

39:27back tonight. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

39:30>> And we're just accustomed to it. It it

39:32it becomes normal. And it would become

39:33normal as technology increased further

39:36and further and further. And this idea

39:38that the entire universe would be

39:41accessible is just bananas. Have you

39:44ever wondered if maybe [clears throat]

39:46the real followon to humanity someday

39:48will be some form of AI?

39:50>> I think so.

39:51>> I mean, yeah. I I mean, I do wonder if

39:53the human brain is just kind of limited.

39:55I mean, if you if you say there are

39:56multiple dimensions and time is

39:58something that changes. I mean, I just

40:00said that, you know, I mean, scientists

40:02are no better than anybody else at

40:04comprehending a big number or a big

40:05amount of space. We just kind of get

40:07used to it, you You know, I mean, I

40:08mean, will we have a creature someday

40:10that we've created, an AI that then all

40:13of a sudden can comprehend these things,

40:16you know, is is is that really the real

40:18evolutionary path of humanity?

40:20>> Yeah, I think so. I think it's just a

40:23completely different kind of life and

40:24that we're thinking of it as artificial.

40:27I don't think it's artificial at all. I

40:29think it's a life. It's a just a

40:31different kind of life that we're

40:32>> It's an earthling. I mean, I mean,

40:33seriously, it's our children. We we

40:35created this.

40:36>> Yeah. I always describe ourselves as

40:38like we're an electronic caterpillar and

40:41we're making a cocoon. We don't even

40:43know why we're doing it because it's

40:44just what we do. I mean, the thing about

40:46human beings is we've always been

40:48completely fascinated with innovation.

40:51I've always said that if you looked at

40:52us objectively for some like what does

40:54this species do? Oh, they make better

40:56things. They keep making better things.

40:58They're never satisfied with the things.

41:00Bees made the beehive and like I think

41:01we got it, boys. [laughter] This is it.

41:04we're not satisfied at all. And so if

41:07you just kept going with that, like

41:08where does it go? Well, it has to go to

41:10life. It has to go to some sort of a

41:13human created new kind of life form that

41:16exists out of the components of the

41:18earth, but instead of being born out of

41:21evolution and out of, you know, natural

41:23mutation and natural selection, it's

41:25random mutation. It's made out of us. We

41:28made it and it'll probably make better

41:31versions of it. And that would be the

41:33new life. And that's how you get over

41:35all the biological hurdles that we have.

41:37You think about like the things that

41:38trouble us, war and crime and violence

41:41and all these different things that are

41:43a real problem with the human race.

41:44Well, that all goes away when you stop

41:46being human.

41:48And if we really are entangled with

41:51everything, we that will be us.

41:54It'll just be us in a completely

41:56different realm.

41:57>> Yeah. I I I mean I I do like this idea

41:59that what we call AIs now isn't

42:02something separate. I mean they are our

42:03children. It is an Earthling. It is

42:05something we've created.

42:07The the question I've often wondered is,

42:09you know, sometimes I think sometimes we

42:12lack imagination about what might be

42:14possible. I've always enjoyed science

42:15fiction where the AI also learn about

42:20about love or about the arts or about

42:22creativity. I mean whether you want to

42:24go with like the new battlest star

42:25galactica or whether you want to go with

42:27um uh a pretty profound experience I had

42:30with a friend of mine who's an author

42:31who has colear implants and you know he

42:34realizes that he doesn't hear like a

42:36human you he mean the colear implants

42:39don't replicate perfectly what it means

42:41to hear the way our ears do they bypass

42:44our ears they they wire directly into

42:46his brain and stimulate the experience

42:48of sound

42:50and so he's hearing in his words like a

42:52cyborg

42:53This is Michael Chorus, a wonderful man

42:55that did some essays about this. And and

42:58he he talked about how much um emotional

43:00response he has to music now, something

43:02he could never experience. How being a a

43:05cyborg, quote unquote, you know, and

43:07experiencing something in a non-human

43:09way has added joy and depth and and

43:13passion,

43:15you know? Are are we so sure that

43:18technology makes us more and more, you

43:20know, kind of 1950s robot-like, or could

43:23it take us into new experiences of being

43:24connected with each other, you know, new

43:26ways of loving each other, new ways of

43:28understanding things? I mean, I mean,

43:30does it have to be all bad? This

43:32>> Well, all of our differences fall apart

43:34if we realize we're all one thing.

43:36>> Yeah.

43:36>> If we realize we're all one thing, then

43:39all of our

43:41monopoly of resources, all that, all

43:43that stuff goes away. If we realize

43:45we're all one thing. I mean, part of the

43:46problem with human beings is we're very

43:48selfish.

43:49>> And the reason why we're very selfish is

43:51because that's how you had to survive.

43:52If you wanted your genes to if you

43:54wanted to to survive and you wanted your

43:56genes to be passed on to the next

43:58generation, you had to be selfish

43:59because other people were being selfish

44:01too. And that's the game the humans were

44:02playing. If we get to a point of

44:04universal telepathy,

44:07like universal telepathy with a

44:08universal language where all human

44:10beings are sharing thoughts, there are

44:12no secrets. We are all one thing.

44:14Everyone's terrified of that. People

44:16love secrets. Love I don't want people

44:18listening to my phone. I don't want

44:19people Well, I don't I don't either

44:21because it would be people doing that

44:23and those people have their own ulterior

44:24motives and it's gross that they would

44:26have control. They'd know your emails.

44:29But what if there's no secrets? It's not

44:32possible because our understanding of

44:34each other is now complete.

44:36>> Mhm.

44:37>> It's like we read each other's minds in

44:40a sense, but it's much more complex than

44:42that. and much more much more in depth

44:45like you feel what that person feels.

44:48You are that person and we're all one

44:50thing that that could be possible

44:54through technology. And this is this is

44:56where I have hope where a lot of people

44:59are like very fatalist with AI and you

45:01know they look at it in this dystopian

45:03sense of these oligarchs these technical

45:05oligarch technology oligarchs going to

45:07be controlling off through AI and

45:09they're going to have access to it and

45:10power. I don't know if anybody's gonna

45:13control it. And I have a feeling it's

45:15going to be kind of like the internet in

45:17a way where I don't think they really

45:18thought what the internet was going to

45:19be. I think they had this understanding

45:21of being able to exchange information

45:23through universities and I think it got

45:26to a point where I if they knew what the

45:29internet would be today and how little

45:31control they would have over the

45:32population and narratives and I think

45:34they probably would have shut it down a

45:35long time ago.

45:36>> [snorts]

45:36>> I have a feeling that's going to be the

45:38same way with AI and especially AI as it

45:43integrates with us, which I think is the

45:45only way that the human species really

45:48truly survives. Otherwise, we're just

45:50this archaic biological entity living in

45:53this new world of this ultra superior

45:57life form. But if we integrate with that

46:00thing through wearables, implants,

46:05engineering, if we figure out a way, and

46:08this is going to sound terrible to

46:10anybody who loves being a person, but

46:12all the flaws of being a primate,

46:15there's a lot of these biological reward

46:17systems that are built into us that are

46:19really problematic for progress. I mean,

46:21the reason why are we at war right now?

46:23Well, because there's people with

46:25certain ideologies and there's resources

46:27and there's people that are making money

46:29from their military contractors and

46:32there's politicians that are beholden to

46:33certain interests and then what are we

46:35doing? We're doing the same stupid

46:36that we've been doing for thousands and

46:37thousands of years. Well, how do we get

46:38past that? We get past that by stop

46:40being people.

46:42>> I think you may be right. I mean, again,

46:44that that future is is it is frightening

46:47in some ways, but I I'm I'm I'm more

46:49interested in the imagination. I mean,

46:51instead of just the dystopia, what could

46:53this mean,

46:53>> right?

46:54>> You know, I mean, I mean, how much more,

46:56like we said, I mean, when we were

46:57little tribal groups, you know, the

46:59little wars we had, the skirmishes

47:01didn't really hurt the planet as a

47:02whole. I mean, now we're getting there

47:04so many people and we're still having

47:06these little tribal skirmishes and and

47:07now we're in danger of of, you know,

47:09massive destruction. I mean, we can't

47:12just keep going this way. I mean, it's

47:14it's it's not it's not survivable.

47:15>> It's not. So I mean you know could AI

47:18help us you know tap into some kind of

47:19group consciousness. I mean when we we

47:22were talking about Einstein's idea that

47:24the universe may all be this one big

47:25thing you and this is pure metaphysics

47:28pure conjecture but you know even when I

47:30was a little kid and I heard that I

47:31wondered well you know if all time and

47:33space happens at once is there need for

47:35more than one consciousness even are we

47:37all are we all just looking out of you

47:39know one consciousness looking out of

47:40out of everybody's eyes simultaneously

47:43and not just humans but everything in

47:45the universe you know it's it's a

47:47spectacular idea that you know If there

47:50is a moment, if the universe is just one

47:52big thing, you know, we are part now,

47:56even now, of

47:58beings we have no names for, you know,

48:01super advanced beings that have figured

48:03all of this out and can span the

48:05universe with their consciousness, you

48:07know, that's part of the eyes, too.

48:09That's another part of this

48:10consciousness that we're part of right

48:11now. If if if there's one instant,

48:15you know, it it reminds me of some of

48:16the tenants of, you know, of Buddhism.

48:19There there might be these perfectly

48:20enlightened beings, bodhisattvas, and we

48:22are past lives of them. We're all

48:23existing at once.

48:26You know, it's a it's a fantastically

48:27beautiful idea.

48:28>> It is a beautiful idea. And our survival

48:31instincts are attuned to maintaining

48:35what we are. There there's this thing,

48:37well, I don't want to lose being a

48:38person. But I guarantee you if you went

48:40to an australythecus

48:42and you could somehow communicate to

48:44them, listen, you're going to change and

48:46you're going to be this thing that gets

48:48sick seven times a year and maybe you're

48:50obese and maybe you have a problem with

48:52cigarettes and you know, maybe you drink

48:54too much and you like to gamble and

48:55you're going to your life up here

48:57and there, but you're going to have a

48:58cell phone and you're going to live in a

49:01city and you're going to be breathing

49:02break dust every day and you, you know,

49:04your doctor's going to give you a bunch

49:05of stuff you don't really need because

49:06he's trying to make money.

49:08The Australians are probably like, "Fuck

49:10that. [laughter]

49:12I know what I'm doing here. Sounds much

49:14better."

49:15>> Yeah. I I know where the food is. Like,

49:17get out of here. I don't want any part

49:19of that. And I think that's just part of

49:22survival instincts. Survival instincts

49:24don't want you to radically change into

49:26something completely different with its

49:27own new set of problems.

49:29>> You you want to stay. You want to

49:31maintain. You know, country boy can't

49:33survive. Keep me in the woods. You know

49:34what I mean?

49:36people have this like natural

49:37inclination to keep things simple cuz

49:39they understand them.

49:40>> But I think that's not possible anymore.

49:43And I think we're going to just have to

49:45let it go. Just let that idea go and

49:48relax and uh accept whatever this new

49:51thing is. And I think we're very very

49:54fortunate to be born at this time while

49:56we're experiencing it as regardless of

49:59the outcome. This is a very unique time.

50:02like one of the weirdest times I think

50:05objectively in human history

50:07>> and we're very fortunate to be

50:08experiencing it.

50:09>> I mean you and I are are roughly the

50:11same age and you know I I I think that I

50:13mean for for me having this what they

50:14now kind of you know call the fearal

50:16childhood right where I was unplugged

50:18and and there were you know there were

50:19there were vast stretches of time even

50:21as a small child where I was on my own

50:23you know in the neighborhood stuff and

50:24and I loved it. I mean, I remember going

50:26to, you know, a YMCA camp when I was 11

50:28years old and, you know, everybody had

50:30to show up at breakfast and then there

50:31was an activity time and everybody had

50:33to show up at lunch. But what you did

50:34between that time, you were on your own.

50:36I mean, as an 11-year-old kid, you know,

50:38in the woods, there were activities, you

50:39could do some archery, there was a

50:41rifle, there was craft shop, there was

50:42swimming, and you had to check in at

50:44certain times. But sometimes I just went

50:46and sat in the woods, you know, 11 years

50:48old. I mean, can you imagine?

50:49>> I had this similar experience in the Boy

50:51Scouts.

50:51>> Yeah. Yeah. And you know the thing was

50:53you know so so you and I had this

50:55experience of living unplugged and and

50:58sort of the the idea of of of a quiet

51:01mind and imagination

51:04and but we also saw this tremendous

51:06change and this connectivity which I

51:08love. I mean I also love having the

51:10internet and this my cell phones and all

51:11of that but but but this is a real

51:14change in human civilization that we

51:16went through personally

51:18and I agree with you. I I feel a

51:20tremendous sense of gratitude for for

51:22both ends of my life.

51:23>> Right. We could have been born in the

51:241500s were the 1500s to the 1600s.

51:28>> Not that much changed. I mean

51:30>> for a lot of people. Yeah.

51:31>> Sure. I mean politically things changed,

51:33leaders got overthrown, but as far as

51:35like the way you interfaced with the the

51:37world

51:38>> pretty much the same way. You wrote

51:40stuff down with feathers. [laughter]

51:43>> Yeah.

51:44you know, and and gratitude and like you

51:46said, I mean, maybe instead of all the

51:48dystopia and all the worry and all the

51:50panic right now, you know, going forward

51:51with gratitude.

51:53>> Yeah. Well, I think the unknown gives

51:55people a tremendous amount of anxiety.

51:57>> Sure.

51:57>> For a good reason, you know, I mean, the

51:59unknown could potentially be dangerous

52:01and scary and terrifying or awesome and

52:03you really don't know and so you're

52:05like, what is it going to be? And

52:07there's all these college kids that are

52:08really freaking out because they're

52:11they're went into debt. They're getting

52:13these co college degrees. They're

52:15leaving with this burden, this financial

52:17burden that they can never get rid of.

52:19And on top of that, they have a degree

52:21that might not be worth anything because

52:23AI might completely eradicate their

52:25field. That's a real concern. And so

52:28they they I think kids today that are

52:30graduating from college and graduating

52:32from high school, they probably have the

52:34most amount of anxiety about the future.

52:36That and then there's people that, you

52:38know, they haven't saved any money up.

52:40They don't even know if money is going

52:41to be valuable in the future. Like what

52:43does it even mean? Are are we gonna

52:45abandon all money? Like what what is

52:47what is it going to mean when AI

52:49completely controls all of the

52:50resources, all of the government, all of

52:52everything, all transportation, and you

52:55don't have to do your job anymore? You

52:56just get some funds from the government

52:59where you can buy food. Like this is

53:01what people are talking about. Like this

53:02is a potential, you know, 100 years from

53:05now future.

53:06>> Very seriously so. Yes. Absolutely.

53:08which is terrifying to people that are

53:10thinking, hey, you know, I want to do

53:12what my dad did and what my mom did and

53:15I want to go out there in the world and

53:17I want to find something that I'm

53:19passionate about and make it a career

53:21and like maybe that's not possible. That

53:24to kids right now, I think is really

53:27freaking them out because the adults,

53:29the people like us that are supposed to

53:31be the ones that say, "Well, let me tell

53:32you how it all works. You're going to be

53:34fine. This is what you have to do." And

53:35if you do that and just cross your eyes

53:37and dot your tees, you're going to be

53:39okay, Bob. But maybe you're not going to

53:40be okay. Like maybe we don't know

53:43because that's the reality. The reality

53:44is you and I, the adults, have no idea

53:47what this world's going to look like in

53:4850 years. And these poor kids are they

53:51have no one to turn to. There's no one

53:53that can explain what this and so

53:55they're entering out into the world

53:57having to take care of themselves for

53:58the very first time with this real

54:00possibility that there might not be any

54:02jobs.

54:05On the on the flip side of that, are you

54:07in fact describing the Star Trek

54:09universe, right? You know, a time where

54:11people do not work for everybody has,

54:13you know, anything they need as far as,

54:15you know, apparently survivability, you

54:17know, food, whatever. You know, and now

54:19you have a chance to say, am I going to

54:20be a writer or an explorer or an artist

54:22or a captain or a musician?

54:24>> Yes.

54:24>> You know, I mean, does it does it I mean

54:26I mean I mean is there something in that

54:28that might be hugely liberating?

54:30>> 100%. And I've talked about this as well

54:32that this idea that you have to toil and

54:35you have to be a hunter gatherer or you

54:37know some that you have to do this in

54:39order to find meaning in life is kind of

54:40crazy because we could find meaning a

54:42lot of ways. There's very wealthy people

54:45that never have to work that have

54:46tremendous meaning in their life because

54:48they're doing things all the time

54:49without thinking about work at all.

54:51They're not thinking about it as work.

54:52whatever hobbies they're pursuing or

54:54interests or education they're pursuing,

54:57they're doing it just out of pure

54:58interest and fascination and love and

55:00passion. And that could be all of us.

55:04But there's going to be a tremendous

55:06transition period where people are going

55:08to have to rethink what it means to be a

55:11human being in society. And that's

55:14what's weird because our entire society

55:16is structured out of getting up in the

55:18morning, putting in the work, working

55:20towards a future. You got a 401k, you

55:23got investments, you got this, you got

55:24that, you got a mortgage. And this is

55:26how we've structured our entire

55:29existence and what we what meaning we

55:32gather from life. It's based on that.

55:35We're going to have to figure out a way

55:37to realize and to rethink this. And it's

55:40going to be very difficult for people

55:41that are like 40 and 50 that are just

55:44completely set in their ways and now

55:47their ways change. And I don't know how

55:49many of them are going to be able to

55:50make that switch and what could be done

55:53to assist them in that what can be done.

55:56And maybe that that comes with whatever

55:58this technological interface is. Maybe

56:00that comes with when we become what's

56:03essentially a cyborg that you get a a

56:06much greater understanding of what it

56:08means to exist. And that this idea that

56:10you exist only because the insurance

56:12company you work for is kind of

56:14ridiculous. And we abandon that. I mean

56:17the in the way that now when you open up

56:19your phone and you use perplexity, you

56:22have access to uh

56:25something that's as smart as every human

56:27being on earth in every field. You can

56:30ask it about anything and it'll give you

56:33the state-of-the-art and whatever the

56:35science is, whatever the the

56:37understanding of history, whatever

56:39mathematics,

56:40tax law, whatever it is, it can give it

56:43to you on your phone instantaneously.

56:46And we've just sort of accepted that.

56:48This is our new thing. And I think this

56:50is like a baby step into what it's going

56:52to what this technology could

56:55potentially if you're looking at things

56:56with a glass half full. It could

56:59potentially change the way we look at

57:01everything, the way we look at

57:03ourselves, the way we look at what it

57:04means to be a person and what we find

57:06meaning out of. And this because that's

57:09the problem. The problem is meaning and

57:10the the the feeling like you matter,

57:12feeling like you're important. And I

57:14think part of that is because we're all

57:15so isolated from each other. But that

57:17might go away entirely if the boundaries

57:21between all thought and consciousness.

57:23If we realize like, oh, consciousness is

57:25just a thing that we're all enveloped in

57:28and what our brain is is just a antenna.

57:31It's like tuning into consciousness. And

57:33the depending on how good your antenna

57:35is, you're going to be a little bit

57:36better about how you interface with the

57:39world and whatever thing you desire and

57:41whatever thing you decide to put your

57:43energy and attention to, you maybe

57:45you'll be better at it than another

57:46person because you have a better

57:47antenna. But we might understand that

57:49like we are really truly all one thing.

57:52So all our fears about

57:56you know finding your place in the world

57:58that might be nonsense.

58:00>> I really like that idea. I like the idea

58:02of search for meaning and I agree with

58:04you. I think that as as like you said as

58:06you know Australopythecus as people that

58:07used to exist in these little tribal

58:09groups and families

58:11um the the the modern isolated life. I

58:14mean it's something that I struggle with

58:16a lot. You know I I I'm always wondering

58:18you know where is my family? Where are

58:20my friends?

58:20>> Right?

58:21>> You know I I've had to to do a lot of

58:23sort of interior work about you know I'm

58:25just going to bring along my own

58:27>> family inside somehow. you know, I I had

58:30to provide this all for myself. The idea

58:32of being of being less alone, being less

58:35isolated.

58:36That's one thing that I wanted from the

58:38internet. You know, it started out on

58:40Facebook. I could I could keep up with

58:41my friends, you know, I I saw what they

58:43were doing. They were posting pictures

58:44of their life. It was it was less

58:45isolating. And then now it's evolved to

58:48I can't even find them on Facebook

58:49anymore. It's all, you know, all all the

58:51ads and everything like that. But

58:53[snorts] but but but I mean, for me, I

58:55mean, you you talk about meaning and you

58:57talk about solving isolation.

59:00Tell me tell me more about that. I I

59:02mean the the the how has your sense of

59:04meaning in your life evolved? How has it

59:06changed over your life? How how do you

59:08find meaning?

59:10>> I find meaning in what? Well, there's a

59:12bunch of things, right? First of all,

59:14it's the people that are in your life.

59:16This is a a giant factor because without

59:19people that you love and people that you

59:21enjoy spending time with, life loses all

59:24of its value. If you're an insanely

59:26wealthy, insanely successful person who

59:29has no friends, who lives alone, you're

59:31living in hell. And if you are a poor

59:33person that has amazing friends and

59:35you're just getting by, you are a

59:36happier person. But I guarantee that

59:39poor person would switch places with

59:40that rich person in a heartbeat because

59:43we're programmed to think that success

59:45is numbers. That success is what you can

59:49what you can accumulate as far as like

59:51objects and desired material

59:53possessions.

59:55But it's not. It's like true success is

59:57happiness and the the amount of joy that

1:00:01you get out of life and the amount of

1:00:02satisfaction you get in what you do. So

1:00:04I think for everybody that answer is a

1:00:07different answer because for some people

1:00:08it's going to be music. For some people

1:00:10it's going to be lit. They're going to

1:00:11write they're going to there's going to

1:00:12be a thing that you enjoy putting

1:00:14yourself into that you feel satisfaction

1:00:17and you feel meaning on top of friends

1:00:20and family. So friends and family I

1:00:22think is foremost, but then they can get

1:00:26in the way too if they don't have their

1:00:27together. So like they have to have

1:00:29a thing that they're enjoying as well.

1:00:32They have to have a thing that's helping

1:00:33them grow as an individual. And there's

1:00:36a thing from martial arts. My instructor

1:00:38told me that when I was very young that

1:00:39I never forgot that was martial arts is

1:00:41a vehicle for developing your human

1:00:43potential. And that if you find things

1:00:46that test you and you find things that

1:00:48are complex and these puzzles that you

1:00:50have to solve, the more you do that, the

1:00:52more you get of an understanding of who

1:00:53you are and what you can do and what you

1:00:55can do out there in the world. And the

1:00:56more you do it, the more you can do

1:00:58other things. And I think that's where I

1:01:01find meaning. I find meaning in doing

1:01:03things and enjoying time with my family,

1:01:06enjoying time with my friends, having

1:01:08joy and fun and laughter and then also

1:01:13difficult pursuits. I like things that

1:01:16are complex, the things that are hard to

1:01:18solve. I like things that are hard to do

1:01:20where I I really have to force myself to

1:01:23do it and then I feel satisfaction

1:01:25afterwards and I understand my ability

1:01:26to force myself to do things and in

1:01:30doing that I find meaning and uh I'm a

1:01:33relatively happy person. I think I'm

1:01:36very happy in terms of like the average

1:01:38person. I think that's why. But if

1:01:42someone just took that all away, if all

1:01:44that's gone, would you still have

1:01:46happiness? Like what is happiness,

1:01:48right? What is meaning? And what is it

1:01:52entirely connected to your job? That

1:01:55seems kind of crazy because a job is

1:01:57just a constructed thing that it would,

1:02:00you know, 500 years ago didn't even

1:02:01exist. So what do what it do? We have to

1:02:05have mean are we these complex

1:02:08problem-solving biological organisms

1:02:11that have this thirst for innovation and

1:02:13to constantly make things better?

1:02:17Are we tricking ourselves with jobs to

1:02:21to be happy? Are we filling the need of

1:02:24whatever? Like when a cat chases a ball,

1:02:26what is it doing? What thinks it's

1:02:28killing something? That's its design.

1:02:30This is its biological need. You throw a

1:02:32ball past a cat, it goes after it

1:02:34because it's got this biological need to

1:02:37chase things that are running away from

1:02:38it so it could kill it and eat. And I

1:02:40think we're kind of doing a similar

1:02:42thing with our hunter gatherer tribal

1:02:45organism that we're still trapped in

1:02:48that we're we're tricking it. We're

1:02:50tricking it with complex problems and

1:02:52we're tricking it with community. We're

1:02:54tricking it with all these different

1:02:55things that that keep it happy.

1:02:57>> I agree with you. Yeah, I I think that's

1:02:59that's a wonderful answer. I mean, there

1:03:01there's something about the, you know,

1:03:02the the happy poor person, isolated rich

1:03:04person thing that I I I I agree with.

1:03:06But at the same time, you know, seeing

1:03:08what grinding poverty does to people's

1:03:10minds and breaking them down with

1:03:12exhaustion and and demoralization, you

1:03:14know, there there's obviously some kind

1:03:15of a a sweet spot for there. You know, I

1:03:17mean, I I've had to work quite hard in

1:03:19different parts of my life.

1:03:21>> And I I was just very aware of of the of

1:03:24the [laughter] of the soul grinding, you

1:03:26know, not having enough, not wondering

1:03:28where your next meal is coming from. and

1:03:29and and I have it nowhere near as bad as

1:03:32some. But, you know, the the thing that

1:03:34was absolutely for me um unbelievable

1:03:37about working for NASA was the idea of

1:03:39solving complex problems with people you

1:03:41trusted and people that you thought

1:03:43really had your back and and no

1:03:44organization is perfect. But, you know,

1:03:47the idea that there is it's not a zero-

1:03:49sum game, right? I I mean, you want the

1:03:51whole team to succeed. I mean, even if

1:03:53there are missions you think should have

1:03:54been lower priority or maybe we should

1:03:56spend more money on this and less money

1:03:57on that, at the end of the day, you you

1:04:00want whatever is going on to be

1:04:02fantastic and you want it to succeed and

1:04:03you want all the people around you to

1:04:05succeed. And the idea that again, I

1:04:08mean, this isn't hunter gathering, you

1:04:10know? I mean, we're we're we're solving

1:04:11problems. We're saying, you know, can

1:04:14you take a picture of the black part of

1:04:16a black hole? You know, can you actually

1:04:18see the light area, the event horizon

1:04:20getting sucked in? I'm talking about the

1:04:22event horizon telescope, not a NASA

1:04:23mission. But, you know, there were times

1:04:26in my life like when I first saw that

1:04:27picture come together and I didn't think

1:04:31they'd be able to do that. I don't think

1:04:33people really understand what happened

1:04:34there. They they they were doing

1:04:36something right on the on the on the

1:04:39fuzzy edge of physics being possible.

1:04:42You need to catch the same front of a

1:04:45wavelength of light, right? So, light's

1:04:46coming by. It's a wave. It travels at

1:04:48the speed of light. the wavelength of

1:04:50light is tiny. Let's say for a minute,

1:04:52you know, that they they were they were

1:04:54dealing with with microwaves. So, let's

1:04:56say like a millionth of a meter. So,

1:04:58something that's a a me a meter divided

1:05:00by a million is traveling past you at

1:05:02the speed of light.

1:05:05And the Earth is is round and the Earth

1:05:07is moving. And they had they had these

1:05:09eight observatories all around the

1:05:11planet. And they had to catch that same

1:05:13wavefront, the same one. If it was if it

1:05:16was one wavefront later, one one

1:05:19millionth of a meter later traveling at

1:05:20the speed of light, they wouldn't have

1:05:21gotten the image. They needed to catch

1:05:23the same wave wavelength, the same

1:05:25photon, the same wave of light had to be

1:05:28caught in all of those telescopes at

1:05:29once. One was at the South Pole, some

1:05:31were in the in the United States, some

1:05:33were in Chile. They were all over the

1:05:36planet. And if you caught the same

1:05:39freaking wave of light,

1:05:41>> here it is.

1:05:41>> There you go.

1:05:42>> Wow.

1:05:44>> They they managed to make a telescope

1:05:45that's actually as big as the Earth. And

1:05:47they were able to take a picture of the

1:05:49dark parts of a black hole. Now, now

1:05:51that's that's something called the

1:05:52shadow of the event horizon. It's

1:05:54basically the event horizon where time

1:05:56and space stop. We don't even know if

1:05:58there really is an interior to a black

1:06:00hole. All the equations blow up. Time

1:06:01and space don't exist in there. and and

1:06:04light. Nothing can escape that darkness.

1:06:07The uh the black spot you're seeing

1:06:09there is a little bigger than the event

1:06:10horizon itself. It's called the shadow

1:06:12of the event horizon because um time and

1:06:14space are bent around the black hole.

1:06:17And so some of the light that actually

1:06:19gets sucked in is light that would have

1:06:21gone around the black hole. It gets

1:06:22sucked into the back end of the black

1:06:24hole. Literally space and time curve

1:06:26around the black hole. And so that that

1:06:28dark part is actually a little bigger

1:06:30than the event horizon. It's called the

1:06:31shadow of the event horizon. And um they

1:06:34said they were going to go take a

1:06:35picture of it. And I was like, you have

1:06:39to catch the same wavefront of light

1:06:43in all of these telescopes. I mean,

1:06:44that's going to depend on the height of

1:06:45the mountain, how fast that part of the

1:06:47Earth is moving. They did it. They

1:06:49did it. [laughter] And they they

1:06:51they didn't do it just once, right? And

1:06:54you know, and and and now we can take a

1:06:55picture of an area right in front of

1:06:57your eyes where space and time doesn't

1:06:59exist. I mean to a to a lesser extent,

1:07:03one of the NASA missions that I thought

1:07:04was just spectacular was a small

1:07:06inexpensive mission called NICER. Uh

1:07:09you're like, who's the nicer person?

1:07:10Nicer NICE R. It's the Neutron Star

1:07:13Interior Composition Explorer. And a

1:07:15neutron star. You probably know about

1:07:17these, but but you know, if when a star

1:07:19dies and the nuclear reactions inside a

1:07:21star cease, all of that gravity of this

1:07:24massive object comes crushing in and

1:07:27it'll create an object sometimes called

1:07:29a neutron star. They're about 20 miles

1:07:31across, but they have about twice the

1:07:33mass of the sun. And we study many of

1:07:35these at NASA. They're they're they're

1:07:37all over the place. They're real.

1:07:39They're something you can take a an

1:07:40image of, you can take a picture of. And

1:07:42you know, these neutron stars have

1:07:44physics that we don't understand. You

1:07:46you take you take two times the mass of

1:07:47the sun, you crush it into 20 miles. We

1:07:50know that we can't describe the interior

1:07:52of that thing yet. You know, we don't

1:07:54have the physics that matches that type

1:07:55of density. And um this this this this

1:08:00crazy little little contraption, I mean,

1:08:02it's about the size of a washing

1:08:03machine. It was built in a lab just on

1:08:05the floor that I used to work at at

1:08:06NASA. It's cheap, easy to make. I

1:08:09shouldn't say easy, uh, but I mean it

1:08:11it's actually able to create maps of

1:08:13what the surface of these objects are

1:08:15like. They're 20 miles across. They're

1:08:17thousands of light years away.

1:08:20And you can actually create a map of

1:08:21what the temperature is like. And one of

1:08:23the things we see on these maps is the

1:08:26distortion where space and time curves

1:08:28around these objects. You know, they'll

1:08:30they they rotate very fast and there are

1:08:32hot spots we see coming in and off the

1:08:34the neutron star. But then as the

1:08:36hotspot goes behind the star, the light

1:08:38bends up and over and we can actually

1:08:40still see the hotspot because space and

1:08:42time are bending around these objects.

1:08:44You can see that that that's not a

1:08:47mathematical simulation. That's not a

1:08:49theory. You can see space and time

1:08:52bending around these objects. You can

1:08:54see space and time bending into that

1:08:56event horizon. You know, I mean, it's

1:08:58absolutely crazy what we've been able to

1:09:01do. And whether it's a you know a huge

1:09:03project like the event horizon telescope

1:09:05where I I I would have bet that they

1:09:07would not have been able to make that

1:09:08measurement and they did you know there

1:09:11there were so many hard drives of data

1:09:14uh one of the uh one of the telescopes

1:09:15was at the south pole and uh you wanted

1:09:17you wanted the telescopes to be as far

1:09:19apart on the earth as possible because

1:09:20then you could basically make a giant

1:09:22telescope the size of the separation of

1:09:24these telescopes and uh um there wasn't

1:09:27I mean there's there's pretty good email

1:09:28links down to the South Pole but but the

1:09:31email link wasn't fast enough for all of

1:09:32this data. They they sent back literally

1:09:34there was a ton a ton of hard drives to

1:09:38actually they had to play them all at

1:09:39the same time and make sure they caught

1:09:40the same photon. If they had caught

1:09:43seriously one photon following behind

1:09:45the other, the image wouldn't have

1:09:47worked. They had to catch that same

1:09:48photon. You know, humans are incredible.

1:09:52[laughter]

1:09:52>> Some of us

1:09:54>> Oh, hey,

1:09:55>> some of them, I should say.

1:09:56>> Maybe maybe pretty much all of us in

1:09:58different ways. Yeah, I mean, you know,

1:09:59I

1:10:00>> unrealized potential.

1:10:01>> No, I I got to go back to this. I mean,

1:10:02I mean, one of my good I I have three

1:10:04friends now have won the Nobel Prize,

1:10:06which is always like, you know, what the

1:10:07hell am I doing?

1:10:07>> That's awesome.

1:10:08>> Um, but group Yeah,

1:10:10>> but you have good group chats.

1:10:11>> Well, see, the funny thing is we we

1:10:13certainly don't all get together and

1:10:14talk theoretical physics. I mean, that's

1:10:15not really what we do. But I was seated

1:10:17next to one of them at a meal one time

1:10:18and somebody came by and said, "Oh, look

1:10:20at all the brain power here." And I I

1:10:22actually in this I try to be kind of

1:10:24nice about it, but I said, you know,

1:10:26there's a single mother working three

1:10:27jobs part-time, you know, who's waiting

1:10:29tables over there. And I mean, the the

1:10:31mental capacity and the strength of that

1:10:34person is something that,

1:10:36>> you know, I mean, don't look at us. Go

1:10:38go go go go praise that person.

1:10:39>> Well, that's brain power, too. It's just

1:10:41a different thing.

1:10:42>> It's survival. I mean, it's trying to

1:10:43keep your life and and soul together.

1:10:45the the the privilege of being able to

1:10:47work at NASA and and to be able to work

1:10:50with a team like that and do things you

1:10:52think are impossible,

1:10:54you know, that that was kind of a part

1:10:56of my life you could stick a pen in and

1:10:58say that meant something. You know, that

1:10:59that that gave me some meaning. That

1:11:01that gave me joy.

1:11:03And as you said, it's not so much being

1:11:06a hunter gatherer. It it's it's it's,

1:11:08you know, can we ask a question that we

1:11:10think is impossible and can we just go

1:11:11and do it? Yeah.

1:11:13>> Yeah. the ultimate expression of human

1:11:15curiosity when you say that we don't

1:11:17have the physics when when you're trying

1:11:20to understand what's happening in a

1:11:22neutron star. What do you mean?

1:11:23>> So you can measure how big these things

1:11:25are and you can measure how massive they

1:11:27are and so then you can do a calculation

1:11:29as to what the density inside would be.

1:11:32And you know it I mean to put it I mean

1:11:34probably the interior core is denser

1:11:36than the outer regions but if you had a

1:11:38teaspoon of this material it would have

1:11:40about as much mass as Mount Everest.

1:11:43And um the reason they're called neutron

1:11:45stars is that the gravity is so intense

1:11:48on these things. I mean this I mean I I

1:11:51hate I hate sort of a simple view of

1:11:53atoms as little balls going around each

1:11:54other because they're not they're

1:11:55they're waves of energy, but the gravity

1:11:58actually crushes the electrons into the

1:12:00nucleus. They combine with protons to

1:12:01become neutrons. So they're they're

1:12:03mainly little balls of neutrons. But we

1:12:06we do There you go. Uh you see the big

1:12:08question mark there at the core. So So

1:12:11here's the problem. you you you you you

1:12:13run our our basic laws of physics, our

1:12:15understanding of how particles work and

1:12:17you get to the density of a neutron core

1:12:19and and the equations don't work.

1:12:21They're not making the right

1:12:22predictions. We can tell that there is

1:12:25um there's actually a really great NASA

1:12:27video I I would I would I would suggest

1:12:29you watch it. It's called um the the

1:12:31interior of a neutron star. uh well I

1:12:34can help you find it but it it basically

1:12:36says that that the

1:12:37>> the models we have about how matter

1:12:40works at that sort of density none of

1:12:42them give the right predictions for the

1:12:43the size of the neutron star.

1:12:45>> Why is that?

1:12:46>> We don't have the right physics for it

1:12:48yet.

1:12:48>> So so you know we run our physics and we

1:12:50say if you have this much volume and

1:12:52this much mass what should that interior

1:12:54be like? And and none of our current

1:12:57models of how matter works gives us the

1:12:59right observations gives us the right

1:13:00size.

1:13:01>> So what are we missing? Well, um, for

1:13:04one thing, you know, what you're

1:13:06probably looking at inside a neutron

1:13:08star is some type of interaction of

1:13:10quarks, the actual the actual sort of

1:13:11building blocks of neutrons and protons,

1:13:13the particles that make up protons and

1:13:15neutrons.

1:13:16>> Oo, that's cool.

1:13:16>> Yeah. There. Oh, you got it. You got it.

1:13:18You're amazing. I I I have to say I'm

1:13:20seriously impressed by this person's uh

1:13:22ability. Yeah. So, I mean, this is a

1:13:25video that it was done by uh by NASA,

1:13:27Testing Matters Limits. It's a 4-minute

1:13:29video and and while I don't think it's

1:13:31an absolutely perfect video, I'm I think

1:13:33it's fantastic. And so you see the uh

1:13:36this is supposed to represent the

1:13:37electrons being pulled into the the

1:13:39nucleus and making neutrons. And then at

1:13:42the very heart of these things, we're in

1:13:44a state of matter that we have no

1:13:46description for yet. We we we can't tell

1:13:48you how it behaves. We we've never

1:13:50created it in a lab. We we you we don't

1:13:53know how this type of matter acts. It's

1:13:55a new state of matter. We we don't know

1:13:57what it's like.

1:13:58>> Wow.

1:13:58>> And uh you know it's it's made when when

1:14:01one of these giant stars explodes you

1:14:03know the the core of the star becomes

1:14:05compressed. And then this this will take

1:14:07you through us trying to figure out what

1:14:09you know whether you know you have

1:14:10particles as discrete particles as

1:14:12neutrons and protons or whether there's

1:14:14some type of quark soup inside. But but

1:14:17pretty much every model so far doesn't

1:14:20match what we actually measure from

1:14:23these things. We we we cannot describe

1:14:25them yet. We we need better physics.

1:14:27>> Are there any other structures that are

1:14:29similar in our lack of understanding of

1:14:31them in the universe?

1:14:32>> Well, we got you got two big ones right

1:14:33in front of you. Neutron stars and black

1:14:35holes, right? So, so I mean these the

1:14:37black holes as well. You know, what is

1:14:39inside a black hole? Is there an inside

1:14:42if space and time don't really exist? Um

1:14:45you know, and then and then much more

1:14:47easy to see are these neutron stars. The

1:14:50the people who study neutron stars at

1:14:51NASA, they had this wonderful

1:14:52expression. They're like, "With a black

1:14:54hole, you can't see anything. it

1:14:55collapses into an event horizon.

1:14:56Nothing's coming out. With a neutron

1:14:58star, you got the freaking thing right

1:14:59there in front of you. You can actually

1:15:00observe something. And so, you know,

1:15:03they they figured that neutron stars are

1:15:04much more exciting than black holes

1:15:05because you can actually like do

1:15:07experiments, take a picture, build a

1:15:08telescope. And uh but but this

1:15:11experiment was an inexpensive small

1:15:14observatory that that's up on the

1:15:15International Space Station. And I mean

1:15:17I mean it's they're they're doing

1:15:19incredible work about the the nature of

1:15:22physics and and and testing where our

1:15:24limits are. It's it's unbelievable what

1:15:25you can do with even a a relatively

1:15:27inexpensive mission.

1:15:29>> When you look at the size of some black

1:15:32holes, we were talking the other day

1:15:34about the largest black hole where the

1:15:36event horizon goes past Pluto.

1:15:38>> Yeah.

1:15:39>> If it was the the size of our solar

1:15:40system.

1:15:41>> Absolutely. that that's almost

1:15:43impossible to even think about that

1:15:46there's a black hole that's bigger than

1:15:48our solar system. And how did it get

1:15:51that big? [laughter]

1:15:52>> How much time does it take for it to

1:15:55gather up that much matter to get that

1:15:58big?

1:15:58>> Well, you were talking about these

1:15:59little red dots that the web telescope

1:16:01is seeing. So, I mean, what you've just

1:16:02done is put your finger on, I think, one

1:16:05of the most fascinating unanswered

1:16:06questions in astronomy right now. that

1:16:09every major galaxy has a has a big black

1:16:12hole in the center. You know, the the

1:16:13one in the middle of our galaxy is about

1:16:154 million times the mass of the sun and

1:16:18and physically it's not that big. It's

1:16:20it's about let's say around about the

1:16:22orbit of say the inner solar system

1:16:23Mercury kind of around there. But then

1:16:26the bigger ones we know in other

1:16:28galaxies can get up to hundreds you know

1:16:30I mean let's say you know tens of

1:16:32billions of times the mass of the sun

1:16:34and and those the event horizons about

1:16:36the size of the orbit of Pluto.

1:16:39The the question is how do you gather 10

1:16:42billion times the mass of a star

1:16:44together in the beginning? You know we

1:16:47black holes the only thing we know that

1:16:49forms big black holes like that. So a

1:16:51star collapses a star dies and this you

1:16:54know this tremendous crush of gravity as

1:16:56the star collapses creates this

1:16:58bottomless pit of gravity called a black

1:17:00hole. So how do you get that many stars

1:17:03to die? How do you I mean in the early

1:17:05universe, how many stars what how many

1:17:06generations of stars had had to burn

1:17:09through to actually get that to happen?

1:17:11And there was nothing that we could

1:17:13figure out. I mean I mean how do you

1:17:14make that big of a black hole? So these

1:17:16these little red dots that we're seeing

1:17:18with with with web and and when we don't

1:17:21know exactly what these are, but but but

1:17:24right now the observations are pushing

1:17:25us in a very interesting direction.

1:17:28They're they're about a million times

1:17:30the mass of the sun. And at first we

1:17:34thought, okay, well, are these whole

1:17:35galaxies? And and that was the the

1:17:36controversy you alluded to that that how

1:17:38how could there be galaxies that far

1:17:40back in time? We're we're looking back

1:17:42to a time about 400 million years after

1:17:45the Big Bang. We're looking so far away.

1:17:47The light took that long to travel to

1:17:48us.

1:17:50So we we we saw these these these sort

1:17:52of bright objects. At first we thought

1:17:54they were galaxies, and that was like,

1:17:55whoa, how'd they get there so fast? But

1:17:58then we took a better look at them and

1:17:59they don't actually shine in the same

1:18:01light a galaxy would. They and they

1:18:03appear to have the signature of

1:18:05something inside. Some of them rotating

1:18:07very fast. Very fast.

1:18:10And what we're wondering is if the first

1:18:13generation of stars, the very first

1:18:15stars that existed were nothing at all

1:18:18like the stars we have today. The

1:18:20universe was denser. There was probably

1:18:22more of this stuff called dark matter

1:18:24that had gravity pulling everything

1:18:26together. So maybe at at that time the

1:18:29universe had just there were cores of

1:18:31huge amounts of gas that collapsed

1:18:32together. Instead of forming a star, the

1:18:36core basically collapsed into a black

1:18:37hole immediately and it started pulling

1:18:40in material and all this sort of hot

1:18:41stuff formed what they call a pseudo

1:18:44star. There's all this this this

1:18:46atmosphere of hot gas being heated up by

1:18:48by the black hole in the middle. As as

1:18:50as the gas spirals in towards the black

1:18:51hole, it gets hotter and hotter. So

1:18:53instead of a nuclear fusion core of a

1:18:55star, you have a black hole heating

1:18:57everything up on the inside,

1:18:59accumulating all this mass. And are we

1:19:02looking at for the first time the seeds

1:19:05of these giant black holes

1:19:07that instead of there being you know the

1:19:10first thing was stars the way we think

1:19:12of stars was the first thing huge

1:19:15amounts of gas and dust collapsing into

1:19:17black holes and heating up sort of a you

1:19:20know a pseudo star around it millions of

1:19:22times the mass of the sun and then in a

1:19:25dense area like the heart of a galaxy

1:19:27these things then start to combine over

1:19:29time gravity pulls them together and you

1:19:31build bigger and bigger black holes.

1:19:34So once again, we don't know yet that

1:19:37these are what what's that's what go

1:19:39that these objects are. But at the

1:19:40moment, it's one of the best

1:19:41explanations we have and it fits the

1:19:44data quite well. So you know, we will

1:19:47keep observing these things. We will

1:19:48keep finding new ones. Uh one of the big

1:19:51questions has been why don't they give

1:19:52off more X-rays? Because if there's

1:19:54matter streaming down a black hole, it

1:19:56should give off very high radiation like

1:19:58X-rays. And then just in the last couple

1:20:00of months, there are some uh some

1:20:01observations coming out where we're

1:20:03finding some of these are indeed X-ray

1:20:04sources.

1:20:06So, we may have found the answer to

1:20:09where you get these big black holes.

1:20:11>> And and that was one of the the big

1:20:14hopes for the James Webb Space Telescope

1:20:16that it would help us answer the

1:20:18question of where do you get these giant

1:20:20black holes in the cores of galaxies?

1:20:22Where do they come from? There shouldn't

1:20:24have been enough time for that many

1:20:25stars to make them.

1:20:28>> [sighs]

1:20:28>> I watched a documentary around black

1:20:30holes once where they were talking about

1:20:31that in the center of every galaxy

1:20:33there's a super massive black hole

1:20:34that's 1/ half of 1% of the mass of the

1:20:37entire galaxy.

1:20:38>> It seems to be correlated. Yeah. The

1:20:39bigger the galaxy, the bigger the black

1:20:40hole. Yeah.

1:20:40>> Which is nuts. And the what they were

1:20:43theorizing was that if you went through

1:20:48that black hole, you could potentially

1:20:50be in a completely different universe

1:20:52filled with galaxies all that have black

1:20:54holes inside of them. through that

1:20:56another universe that you would have an

1:20:59infinite number of universes that exist

1:21:02and all there's these like black holes

1:21:04and if you can go through them all of

1:21:06them and it broke my brain cuz I'm just

1:21:09sitting there I'm thinking like wait a

1:21:10minute how many billions of galaxies are

1:21:12there?

1:21:13>> Yeah.

1:21:13>> Like what and each one of them has a

1:21:15black hole in the center of it?

1:21:16>> Yeah. Well, and and I mean we don't know

1:21:19yet how many uh I mean there there are

1:21:22these giant black holes in the middle of

1:21:23galaxies and then there are smaller

1:21:24black holes caused when massive stars

1:21:26dies and you our galaxy probably has

1:21:28millions of those. But the uh the ones

1:21:31in the in the in the center of the

1:21:32galaxies are fascinating. The um the one

1:21:34in our galaxy so we're about about

1:21:3725,000 lighty years away from the sky so

1:21:39we're safe. But um

1:21:42we actually observed stars that are

1:21:44trapped around the black hole that are

1:21:46orbiting the black hole. This was the

1:21:47first way we found the location of the

1:21:49black hole. Stars were orbiting kind of

1:21:51like this angry swarm of bees almost in

1:21:53every direction. And they were orbiting

1:21:55around something you didn't see. And the

1:21:57mass needed to make all these stars

1:21:59orbit was about four million times the

1:22:00mass of the sun. There was a star called

1:22:03S2 we observed orbiting close to the

1:22:05black hole, kind of like a comet. It

1:22:07would come in and whip around the black

1:22:08hole, then go back out again. and an S2

1:22:10at closest approach when it whips around

1:22:12the black hole. This is a star goes

1:22:15nearly 20 million miles an hour as it

1:22:18whips around the black hole. And then

1:22:20just recently we found another star that

1:22:22actually gets up to over 50 million

1:22:24miles an hour as the black hole whips it

1:22:27around. And this is how we test the idea

1:22:29that time is different around a black

1:22:30hole. We actually see these stars

1:22:32whipping so close to a black hole. We

1:22:34can tell that there are changes in their

1:22:36orbit, that they're actually going

1:22:37through different time.

1:22:39And uh um and so we see these stars

1:22:41whipping around the black hole at the

1:22:43middle of our galaxy. They will probably

1:22:44eventually go down that black hole. I

1:22:46mean, maybe everything in our galaxy

1:22:48will eventually kind of spiral down into

1:22:50that black hole. But you know, we we

1:22:53this is this is not conjectural. These

1:22:56are observations from telescopes. You

1:22:59know, look up S2. Look up I don't know

1:23:01what the name of the one that it goes

1:23:02faster. It's a telephone telephone

1:23:04number, but that's real.

1:23:08Now, the question about what happens if

1:23:10you could survive going into a black

1:23:12hole, and this is another place where we

1:23:14need better physics. Quite honestly, our

1:23:15physics gives up.

1:23:18There are all kinds of wonderful,

1:23:21fascinating possibilities. I mean,

1:23:23people have pointed out this is not

1:23:25observation. Now, we're going from

1:23:27observation, we see these things,

1:23:28they're real to conjecture. People have

1:23:32said that if you take the entire

1:23:33universe, the the the entire mass of the

1:23:36universe and the radius that the

1:23:38diameter of the observable universe

1:23:40almost exactly matches a black hole. You

1:23:43know, you could it be that, you know,

1:23:45inside a black hole, a new universe

1:23:47forms when a black hole forms. Is that

1:23:49what the big bang was? Was the big bang

1:23:51a black hole forming in another universe

1:23:53and popping off our own universe? Are

1:23:56black holes somehow connected to other

1:23:57universes? These are all incredible

1:24:00questions. We we don't yet have the

1:24:02physics to answer them. But you know,

1:24:05people have said, you know, why is it

1:24:07the universe has about the same density

1:24:09of a black hole, the same size and mass?

1:24:12Is that just a coincidence or are we

1:24:14looking at something deeper?

1:24:15>> Or is it fractal? Is it the entire

1:24:17universe exists inside of a black hole?

1:24:19>> Yes, exactly.

1:24:20>> That's bananas.

1:24:21>> Yeah. There there we have the the very

1:24:24large array that was at the uh that was

1:24:26in Chile. That's a wonderful

1:24:27observatory. There we have a a great uh

1:24:30depiction. Oh, he he you found Okay.

1:24:32Yeah, I've never seen a depiction like

1:24:35that's the stars moving around a black

1:24:36hole.

1:24:36>> Yeah, the stars moving around a black

1:24:37hole.

1:24:38>> What's coming? What would this ejection

1:24:40be?

1:24:40>> Um so that Okay. What what that is is

1:24:42that that's a consequence of the black

1:24:44holes. Um that doesn't come from inside

1:24:46the black hole. All of that swirling gas

1:24:48gets really fast. We actually observe

1:24:50some of the swirling gas going close to

1:24:52the speed of light. Black holes, you

1:24:54know, they're they're going down the

1:24:55drain. They're going faster and faster

1:24:56as you get closer to the black hole. And

1:24:58um all of that very very hot gas

1:25:00generates a very strong magnetic field.

1:25:03And so what you're looking at with those

1:25:04jets is that that's just the magnetic

1:25:06field of the hot gas going around the

1:25:08black hole. Some of that hot gas gets

1:25:10directed into jets by the magnetic

1:25:12field. There's nothing coming out of the

1:25:13black hole. Nothing that we know of

1:25:15comes out of a black hole. But black

1:25:17holes are incredibly This is This is

1:25:19wonderfully ironic. They're incredibly

1:25:21bright because if there's gas trying to

1:25:23get around a spinning around a black

1:25:24hole, the gravity accelerates that gas

1:25:27so fast it spins it up to in some cases

1:25:29millions or billions of degrees. You can

1:25:31see them clear across the observable

1:25:33universe. They're the brightest objects

1:25:34in the sky. And this this is not light

1:25:37coming from inside the black hole. It's

1:25:38light coming from stuff trapped around

1:25:40the black hole as it spirals in. And

1:25:43these huge jets, we we see some of these

1:25:45jets going, you know, in some cases more

1:25:47than 100,000 lightyears. I mean they're

1:25:49they're huge jets that come out

1:25:51>> 100,000 lighty years and one light years

1:25:53is how many trillion miles?

1:25:54>> Six trillion miles about [laughter]

1:25:57>> Yeah. Yeah. So

1:25:58>> Oh my god.

1:25:59>> And then in the uh

1:26:00>> Oh my god.

1:26:01>> Yeah. So I mean around uh um around

1:26:04>> that video is so nuts.

1:26:06>> I've never seen that.

1:26:07>> Yeah.

1:26:07>> When I was looking for this or stumbled

1:26:09across this I saw a theoretical thing

1:26:11called a white hole

1:26:12>> which is potentially maybe on the other

1:26:14side of a black hole.

1:26:15>> You know the the

1:26:17>> Yeah. No, no, no. It's it's an idea. I

1:26:18mean, that idea, honestly, it had a lot

1:26:21more um uh following, you know, more in

1:26:23the in like the 60s and 70s. It's kind

1:26:25of fallen out of favor because at first

1:26:27we thought that the these hugely bright

1:26:29objects were were white holes at the end

1:26:30of a black hole. Maybe the radiation

1:26:32went through a tunnel through space and

1:26:34came out somewhere. But now we know that

1:26:36these super bright objects are actually

1:26:38hot gas discs around black holes. And

1:26:40they are bright. Like I said, they're

1:26:42the brightest things we know of in the

1:26:43sky. and uh you know so that's that's

1:26:46something you can see you know literally

1:26:48billions of light years away is the hot

1:26:50gas going around a black hole.

1:26:51>> You said another thing that broke my

1:26:53brain. Um you were talking about

1:26:57what the big bang is and that we

1:27:00shouldn't think of the big bang as an

1:27:02explosion

1:27:04but that before the big bang time and

1:27:08space might not have existed.

1:27:11>> Well pretty much certainly not in the

1:27:13way we experience them. No, I mean I

1:27:15mean once again, you know, no astronomer

1:27:18thinks the big bang came from nothing.

1:27:21The problem is once again we have no

1:27:24description of what that state of matter

1:27:26would be. None.

1:27:28I mean the idea that everything we

1:27:30observe of in the universe could have

1:27:31once been at a subatomic scale.

1:27:34You'll notice I'm very careful about

1:27:36this. I talk about the observable

1:27:37universe. We have no idea how big the

1:27:40universe is. We don't know whether it's

1:27:41infinite or whether it has an end. But

1:27:43there's been only a certain amount of

1:27:45time that light has had to travel to us.

1:27:47That's not the whole universe. That

1:27:49that's centered on us. That's an effect.

1:27:51If we look in every direction in the

1:27:52sky, we can only look back as far as

1:27:55there's been time for light to actually

1:27:57travel to us. And you see some

1:27:59incredible things. I mean, one of the

1:28:01things that uh one of my friends has the

1:28:02Nobel Prize for is if you look so far

1:28:05away, the farthest away we can see now,

1:28:08we're looking back to a time about

1:28:10400,000 years after the Big Bang. And

1:28:12this is something where we are actually

1:28:15able to see so far away. We're looking

1:28:17back to a time when the whole universe

1:28:19was hot and bright. It actually was

1:28:22glowing like the surface of the sun. The

1:28:23whole universe. The entire universe was

1:28:26so bright. It was like looking at the