Joe Rogan Experience #2560 - David Grusch

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0:12>> All right, bro. David, what's up?

0:14>> Thanks for having me back on. Yeah,

0:16>> my pleasure.

0:16>> Yeah.

0:17>> Well, you're the one that's closest to

0:18the flame, so tell me what's going on.

0:20>> Oh, I know, right? So, uh, living a

0:22nightmare is what I tell my friends. So,

0:24it's definitely um been a tough several

0:27years or so. And uh you know last time

0:29we were on uh just testified in front of

0:32Congress and uh the UAP Disclosure Act

0:36of 23 was you know possibly getting

0:38passed. It failed to get passed and then

0:40I um based on you know things I know

0:43about the Biden administration, things I

0:44heard from the White House, I decided to

0:46kind of lay low for a year. So 24 I

0:48didn't do too much. And then uh

0:51Representative Burlson had this crazy

0:53idea to to hire me as a professional

0:56staff member for Congress working for

0:58him. Uh turns out I guess I was like the

1:01first guy that ever testified in front

1:03of Congress as a whistleblower and then

1:04being subsequently hired by Congress. Um

1:07I was the first guy to ever do that

1:08which is very interesting and very cool.

1:10And I I do thank Burlson for um you know

1:13his leadership on that. And so I did

1:16that for about a year and a half. um

1:18just finished up actually. I was like,

1:20you know what? I'm staying longer than I

1:22thought. You know, I'm going to wait

1:23until Labor Day, see where things are. I

1:25worked pretty hard over uh uh summer

1:27recess in August and and decided uh to,

1:31you know, wind down some of my

1:32activities because I accomplished a lot

1:34of my objectives. We can get into that

1:36obviously and then uh kind of move into

1:39I'll call it my next phase of

1:41operations, which includes a little

1:42break for me. Um it's been very tiring.

1:45I've been kind of, you know, going full

1:47throttle for the last couple years and

1:49whatnot. And so we're really at a, I

1:51think, a poignant moment in US history

1:53with what Trump's done and the things

1:55you've seen in the media and whatnot.

1:56And there's a lot of other stuff

1:58happening behind the scenes because, you

2:00know, a lot of my work has been private

2:02behind the scenes, you know, working for

2:04Congress, specifically Representative

2:06Burlson.

2:07>> So, let me ask you the environment. So,

2:09are there some people in Congress that

2:11are interested in disclosure of this

2:13stuff and pursue you and want to find

2:15out information and want you to tell

2:18them what what's going on and and then

2:21are there other people that are

2:23resisting this? Yeah, I think there's a

2:25big bifurcation of the non-believers and

2:27then kind of the UAP caucus. Although

2:29you see more and more people kind of

2:31signing on to the cause like I did a

2:32presser back in June in front of the

2:34capital with members and we even had

2:36Brigider General retired uh

2:38representative Scott Perry there who was

2:40on the House Intelligence Committee from

2:42my home state of PA and it was good to

2:45see other members, you know, start

2:46showing that they support the cause. But

2:49it has been challenging behind the

2:50scenes and I had many skiff classified

2:53meetings with the members kind of going

2:55over the topological history of this

2:57topic and and some of the deeper darker

3:00kind of you know criminal stuff I bumped

3:01into and how I worked with DOJ to kind

3:05of highlight some of that stuff and

3:06that's what

3:06>> kind of criminal stuff.

3:08>> Yeah. So, uh, when I was, um, looking

3:12into this, and I have to be very

3:14respectful of, uh, my participation in

3:16this because it's an ongoing thing with

3:17DOJ. Um, I was, you know, following the

3:20money, bumping into other activities.

3:23Um, very much like, actually, it's sort

3:25of related. And if you saw in the news

3:27that David Rush, very similar name to

3:30me, it's kind of uh, freaky, uh, but he

3:32was arrested with $40 million of gold

3:34bars. He was a CIA officer. where he

3:36made a fake uh continuity of government

3:38special access program and you know he

3:40went under the radar basically um doing

3:43his own thing and getting gold and

3:44Rolexes and stuff and the FBI raided his

3:46house back in May. True true story.

3:49Yeah, the guy has a

3:50>> is that gold bars?

3:51>> He has he had $40 million of gold bars.

3:53>> Where did he get the gold bars

3:55>> from the agency?

3:56>> They have them laying around.

3:58>> Yeah. I can't get into all the details

3:59of why the government

4:01>> Hold on. The government has gold bars.

4:03>> Yeah. And this guy just snatched him.

4:06>> Yeah. He made I don't know all the

4:07details, but he made a fake continuity

4:10of government special access program

4:12that nobody was briefed into. He like,

4:14you know, papered it and uh nobody at

4:16the CIA questioned what he was doing.

4:18And he was like, "Well, I need, you

4:19know, 40 million in gold bars because of

4:21the special continuity of government

4:23activity."

4:23>> Wait, wait, wait. So that's how they

4:25fund some things in gold bars.

4:28It's almost like uh in Afghanistan when

4:30I was over there, I'd have guys with

4:32briefcases full of $100,000 in cash cuz

4:35you have to pay for things, right?

4:37>> So,

4:38>> but that kind of makes more sense to me

4:40than lugging around gold.

4:42>> Yeah.

4:42>> What does like 40 million in gold bars

4:44look like?

4:45>> Uh I saw the seizure photos. It's a lot.

4:47I mean, it's really

4:48>> Can I see what that looks like?

4:49>> It's approximately 303 gold bars that

4:51each weigh approximately 1 kilogram a

4:54piece.

4:54>> Yo, that's a lot of weight. Yeah, I was

4:56looking for a picture. There's only like

4:58AI photos of it

4:59>> at least that I could find.

5:00>> So, a kilogram is 1.2.2 lb.

5:02>> Yeah. 2.28 or something.

5:03>> That's crazy.

5:04>> 600.

5:05>> He's got 600 lb of gold.

5:08>> Yeah.

5:08>> Where the do you put? So, he just

5:10had it in his house.

5:11>> He did have it at his house and he

5:12laying around.

5:13>> Bunch of Rolexes and all that. And

5:15>> Oh, so he was just going crazy.

5:16>> Yeah. Well, who knows what he was really

5:18going to use the gold for, but that

5:20that's an open-ended thing. And he was

5:21he was pretending that he was using it

5:24for some disclosure type deal or did it

5:28have anything to do with UAPs?

5:29>> Uh not that I'm aware of, but that same

5:32ecosystem I bumped into. So his

5:35fabricated program was a continuity

5:37government program. So that's like, you

5:38know, if something bad happens,

5:40>> people are going to a hideout site, you

5:42know, sanitized location,

5:44>> right?

5:44>> And so what I bumped into unfortunately

5:48was like the deep underbelly of the

5:49federal government. We can get into it.

5:51It's it's a lot of stuff I've never

5:52talked about because it's just very

5:54terrifying and I you know I've been

5:55through a lot of a lot of crazy and

5:58I ended up bumping into a criminal

6:01enterprise uh run out of a particular

6:03agency and um it was basically um

6:08getting money through certain criminal

6:11endeavors the most unspeakable type of

6:13criminal endeavors under the cover of uh

6:16certain national security programs.

6:18That's about as

6:18>> When you say certain unspeakable

6:20>> Yeah.

6:21>> You mean like what do you mean like

6:23trafficking?

6:26>> Yeah.

6:27>> Like child trafficking.

6:30So the government was involved in child

6:34trafficking for money.

6:35>> Officers of the government. That's true.

6:37Yeah. It's it's up. I uh I

6:39briefed members in a classified setting

6:41all the details. Um, and I I'm

6:43highlighting that because

6:46this is how serious this issue is is

6:49there's an ecosystem and there's a lot

6:50of good people are on these programs in

6:53terms of the the UAP side. Yeah. And I

6:56know a lot of them. They're friends of

6:57mine. They're patriotic people doing

6:58their duty, but there is like a small

7:00little cast system of characters um that

7:03are part of this larger ecosystem of uh

7:06no holds barred. we're going to do what

7:07we want and you know we're going to do

7:09whatever kind of criminal activity to

7:10get a washed money uh for our cutouts

7:13like so a good example of course would

7:14be Iran Contra right which is very

7:16famous 86 and the CIA was engaged in

7:20those kind of activities and this has

7:22all been exposed all over north and all

7:23that to fund the contras weapons

7:25purchases procurement etc and a lot of

7:28that you know seemed to uh possibly be

7:31drug trafficking the government never

7:33confirmed that but you look at Barry

7:34Seal and and his um uh statements in the

7:3980s and 90s and and it's likely that

7:41that um probably occurred, you know.

7:44>> Yeah. It was all through Freeway Ricky

7:45Ross.

7:46>> Yeah, that's right.

7:47>> Yeah. Ricky's been on the podcast

7:48multiple times.

7:49>> That's right. That's right.

7:50>> Yeah. He was on what is it like two

7:52years ago, year and a half ago. Last

7:54time he was on. Um

7:56>> it's funny cuz he's out now. Uh became

7:59an attorney while I was in jail. Found

8:02out learned to read first. Okay.

8:04Couldn't read. became an attorney in

8:06jail, found out that they tried him. You

8:08know that triple jeopardy, three strikes

8:10thing.

8:11>> Yeah.

8:11>> They tried him incorrectly. They used

8:13that incorrectly because it's supposed

8:14to be three different times you were

8:16arrested instead of like three crimes

8:17that were attached to one arrest. So, he

8:19gets out of jail. Now, he sells legal

8:21weed.

8:24>> All right. All right.

8:25>> Lovely guy. But he he's a great guy, but

8:28he had no idea that he was selling

8:30cocaine to fund the Contra versus the

8:32Sandinistas.

8:33>> Interesting. He had no idea. He thought

8:35that he was just a a slick character

8:37that just knew what he was doing and

8:39was, you know, he didn't realize that

8:41the CIA was literally allowing him to do

8:43it. Then we've also had Michael Roupert

8:45on the podcast. You know who he is?

8:47>> No.

8:47>> Michael Roupert was the LA narcotics

8:49officer that on uh I believe it was on

8:51C-SPAN. He went on C-SPAN during a

8:54hearing and he exposed the entire or

8:58organization selling drugs in South

9:01Central Los Angeles because he was

9:03involved in it. He was involved in like

9:06busting people that were doing it and

9:07then they told him he has to leave it

9:09alone because it was the CIA.

9:11>> Yeah. Yeah. And so when I bumped into

9:14that stuff, you know, I immediately

9:15worked at Department of Justice.

9:17>> That's one level, but like child

9:18trafficking is another level.

9:19>> I know, man. It's it's really up

9:22and and there's a lot of details that

9:24are I have a lot more questions than

9:26answers and and I you know I worked with

9:28the OJ and you know from what I

9:29understand uh I got a gold star in a

9:32brief to Cash Patel about it last year.

9:34I wasn't in the briefing, but I, you

9:36know, I I was told I got kudos, but it

9:39was very disturbing. And so, like,

9:42obviously, a lot of these programs are

9:45legal in the sense that there's in terms

9:47of UAP stuff, there's, you know,

9:49classified executive orders back in the

9:50day that covers them and

9:52>> and they're upstanding citizens and we

9:54could we could litigate like, you know,

9:56uh, Congress wasn't necessarily brought

9:59into the fold enough from an oversight

10:01perspective, etc. But, you know, the

10:03core of the program, you know, does have

10:05uh a legal beginning, but when you don't

10:07have oversight, unfortunately, certain

10:10small pockets of people start doing

10:12that they shouldn't have. And I and

10:14unfortunately,

10:16>> I got deeply ins snared in that. There

10:18was a very small group of people that

10:22uh, you know, pushed me over the edge

10:23and I had to do what I got to do to to

10:26you know, protect myself. And I never

10:28wanted to be a whistleblower. You know,

10:30I was a deeply entrenched, you know,

10:3115-year intel officer, military officer

10:34in the Air Force. You know, I was

10:36working some of the country's most

10:37sensitive issues. You know, started

10:39going to the White House to brief the

10:40National Security Council in my mid20s

10:41on space issues back during the Obama

10:43administration. And and in 2019 when I

10:47joined the UAP task force and I was

10:49tasked to investigate this, I was like,

10:51"Sure, I'll look into it." you know, the

10:53special access program or black program

10:55community has a lot of dysfunction and

10:57and maybe some stuff wasn't reported,

10:59you know, you know, correctly and and I

11:01didn't know really what I was going to

11:02find, but if there was a US program, you

11:05know, I'd figure it out. I'd probably

11:06get cleared to it and we'd be fine. We'd

11:08have like a mafia meeting and and uh you

11:11know that and I know why it was

11:14protected the way it is and whatnot. But

11:15unfortunately

11:17about a year and a half about October

11:212020 is when kind of my life changed and

11:26particular individuals instead of coming

11:28to me who knew me by the way personally

11:30I know I know them personally now Dave

11:33you're bumping into something you know

11:35I'm going to defensively brief you this

11:37is what it is or hey I'm going to slide

11:39an NDA sign this and I'll read you in

11:42and my colleagues and I joked about that

11:44like we're bumping in the

11:46eventually somebody's going to knock on

11:47my door in my office and be like, "Hey,

11:49I need to talk to you." And

11:50unfortunately, that never happens. Um,

11:53it's really tragic because that would

11:55have been an easier way. But, um, I

11:58immediately got administratively nuked

12:00in October 2020 and basically they went

12:04after everybody around me. Uh my boss at

12:08the National Reconnaissance Office as

12:10you know Major Gush the Air Force

12:11officer in the reserves got walked out

12:13of NRO headquarters in Chantelli,

12:15Virginia under fabricated

12:18uh personal conduct things and and they

12:20went after, you know, my chief of staff

12:22who worked for me at NGA when I was a 15

12:24and and co-workers, people they thought

12:28were my enablers, right? And um and I

12:33thought, okay, I could fight this.

12:35They're bringing up like my mental

12:36health stuff, which we've talked about

12:37before, Afghanistan PTSD. I'm like, I

12:40reported it. I was cleared of, you know,

12:42no problems. Kept my top secret

12:44clearance, and I still have my top

12:45secret clearance, but it got very,

12:50very um

12:53scary in early 2022. And I've avoided

12:57talking about this for a long time. And

12:59I've mentioned in my hearing in 2023,

13:02you know, I was, you know, I'm I'm here

13:03in fear for my life, etc. Well, you

13:06know, I'm not talking about the criminal

13:08stuff. I found stuff that's happened in

13:09my personal life and stuff. And so, back

13:11in early 2022,

13:14um everything's fine. Uh started uh

13:18noticing some suspicious activity um

13:21near where I live and I didn't think

13:24much of it. Thought it was kind of

13:25strange. And I don't want to quite go

13:28into all the details, but basically

13:31um later one particular day

13:35uh I was sent a message that they can

13:37touch me and my wife and they they're

13:40they know where we are and they

13:42>> and what do you think this was

13:43particular? Was this because of the

13:45child trafficking stuff? Was this

13:47because of some other illegal activity

13:49with no oversight? you know, in private

13:53environments, I was asked what what red

13:55line, what trip wire did I cross? To

13:58this day, I don't know specifically. I

14:03suspect uh based on them, what turns out

14:08they were monitoring my classified

14:10computer at work, uh my re my

14:14investigation notes that I would keep

14:15encrypted on there. I think they were

14:18very worried that I figured out a lot of

14:20things. And I I still don't know for

14:22sure though, like and it and there's a

14:24lot of other things too. I guess I'm

14:25kind of jumping around because um in

14:28early 2021, you know, certain people

14:31that were helping me and I was talking

14:33to started to experience uh Havana

14:36syndrome symptoms, you know, anomalous

14:39health incidents. And I know a lot about

14:40that. That's another kind of ecosystem I

14:43was an expert in in the government. And

14:45of course, my first thing is like, huh?

14:47Uh, did you piss off the Russians or

14:49Chinese or some other kind of foreign

14:51intelligence service or because you

14:52don't think domestic. And I'm like, what

14:54did you do in your career? Were you on

14:56covert action programs? Did you like,

14:58you know, bomb some, you know,

15:01adversaries building and they're pissed

15:02off at you and they hold a grudge? And

15:04so I noticed that I wasn't going to

15:06equate that to the topic. And

15:09uh but I I was very nervous about that

15:12because people I know uh were starting

15:14to experience those symptoms

15:16specifically uh microwave directed

15:19energy most likely just based on um

15:22certain tradecraftraft they were doing

15:24to detect it which I won't get into the

15:25details of that and then the their

15:27symptomology so to speak and uh so that

15:30was frightening and in in that 2021 time

15:34frame I was sitting at home I was

15:36getting you know investigated ated by

15:37three agencies and um I really didn't

15:41know what was going on. A lot of my

15:43colleagues were kind of continuing on

15:44that investigation on on on my behalf

15:47and eventually in late 2021 NGA hired me

15:50as a 15 off the street. Kind of came

15:52back into government full-time. I was

15:55hoping um that agency would protect me

15:57against uh you know the CIA and the NRO

16:00and and certain elements of the DoD that

16:02were going after me because of these

16:05couple antagonists that were trying to

16:07you know basically um push me over the

16:10edge administratively. But

16:13what what I crossed the Rubicon in early

16:152022 when I was sent a message and it

16:17was this the same day I was sent a

16:19message other people got that message

16:22too. So it was coordinated

16:23geographically

16:24and of course you know I reported that

16:27to federal law enforcement count

16:28intelligence element and at the time I'm

16:30like well you know there was a one

16:32adversarial intelligence agency that had

16:34an interest in me several years ago and

16:36I had a little incident that was

16:37actually kind of funny. Um so I wasn't

16:40sure if it was like the US government or

16:42even if it was related um to the my

16:46investigation. And then several several

16:50uh weeks later

16:52and I was I get chills talking about

16:54this cuz it's it's kind of upsetting. Um

16:57I was uh in DC um for a conference on

17:02UAP actually uh for my for my agency NGA

17:05at the time and I got summoned to an

17:08offbooks

17:09uh Senate Intel committee uh we'll call

17:12it meeting in their you know their skiff

17:15right their their vault where you can

17:16talk classified information and certain

17:19individuals were there known to me um

17:21great credentials people I've known for

17:23a while uh in my line of work and so was

17:27you know a dozen dozen and a half uh

17:30senior staff for Marco Rubio Mark

17:32Wernern you know etc right and

17:36in that meeting uh we you know we talked

17:38about the legacy program the history

17:41many hours and I'm going to fly on the

17:43wall like this is really for Senate

17:45staff I'm just kind of sitting in the

17:46back and you know they turned to staff

17:50and they you know they pointed at me and

17:51they're like um oh by the way you know

17:54the these couple individuals and they

17:56and they named the individuals. I'm

17:57like, I know who they are. Um

18:00uh they uh wanted to kill you and um I

18:05know Lu Alazand talked about it, but

18:07why?

18:08>> I do not know that for sure. I think

18:10well so um

18:15be careful what I say. Uh there are

18:18certain presidential findings that allow

18:20certain things to protect critical

18:21things in the government. And my

18:26assessment is I was getting so close to

18:29exposing it because I was sort of

18:31preparing my inspector general's uh

18:34report to the IG that um I must have

18:37crossed some sort of Rubicon. I still

18:39would like to know and I hope these

18:41people are you know uh brought to

18:42justice and that's you know my wish and

18:45dream and hopefully Department of

18:47Justice does what's needed. But

18:49>> there's an investigation ongoing right

18:51now.

18:51>> Yes. on that. And that's all I'll say

18:53defensively not to interfere with that.

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20:06>> Okay. How much of this do you think has

20:08to do with actual UAP disclosure and how

20:11much of it has to do with a lack of

20:14oversight that allowed people to do

20:16illegal activities? I think some problem

20:19children decided to abuse some standing

20:23options to protect, you know, critical

20:28infrastructure in the United States,

20:29which, you know, for example, that would

20:31be like a Air Force flight line, a ICBM

20:34silo, um, other activities. And they

20:38decided, um, I was some sort of threat.

20:42And it's it's so disgusting because I

20:45you know like I said I was a fieldgrade

20:46officer in the air force. I was a you

20:48know GS15 a CIA colon equivalent

20:49civilian and I'm sitting there in Senate

20:52chambers and I'm hearing this and I

20:53won't get into all the details. in it a

20:54lot. I heard like you know all the

20:56details on that and I don't want to like

20:58um burn my sources and and I just

21:01remember how upset the Senate staff was

21:04and to the point where you know a

21:06particular staffer um who's very senior

21:09went to his office and got some whiskey

21:11and you know all of them started

21:12drinking in the skiff because it's like

21:13everybody was afraid like are they

21:15serious? or like they literally were

21:18thinking about killing Dave and

21:20like and and and I found out that there

21:22was a kibash to that. It's a longer

21:24story for someday if I could ever, you

21:26know, discuss the whole the whole

21:27history. And

21:28>> so it was considered but then it was

21:30kibos.

21:30>> Yes. Thank God. And I know how it was

21:33stopped and I I owe some people a debt

21:35of gratitude literally. And um and this

21:39was just a few weeks after, you know, I

21:42was sent a message and and even after

21:45the meeting um we were finding stuff and

21:49other people were finding stuff um to

21:52let people know that they're being

21:54tracked. And I know this sounds like so

21:57crazy and all that, but

22:00>> Well, so does someone having $40 million

22:03in gold hanging out their house and a

22:04bunch of Rolexes. Never did I think, you

22:07know, I'm a very patriotic guy. I love

22:09serving America. You know, it hurts me

22:11every day not having the uniform

22:13anymore. And knowing that was the level

22:17that they thought about going to because

22:20of this interesting interpretation of

22:23certain standing options. And I and

22:28eventually in this disclosure process, a

22:30lot of that will come out. I just have

22:32to be careful what I say now until, you

22:34know, the the president figures out how

22:35to, you know, release some of this

22:36history, unfortunately. So,

22:38>> understood. Yeah. So, one of the things

22:40that we talked about before, so you were

22:42scheduled for another podcast a while

22:44back, but flights got cancelled when we

22:46moved it today, but you were saying that

22:48it's actually fortuitous that it was

22:50rescheduled.

22:51>> Yeah. A lot of things are happening. I

22:54see the administration getting really

22:56really serious on this and I think

22:58people don't appreciate the courage that

23:00Trump is is is showing right now uh

23:04ordering the government to release

23:05everything we know about this topic.

23:07It'll be

23:09>> courage how so like you think he's in

23:11danger from releasing this information?

23:12>> Not necessarily, but it's it's

23:15um the ontological shock and the history

23:19coming out and sort of the outrage. I

23:22mean, I think it'll be uniting sort of

23:23like in post 911 America after the

23:25towers fell, right? You have the the

23:27fear of dirty bombs and other terrorist

23:29attacks, but you also have this like

23:31uniting uh panacea that kind of brings

23:33people.

23:34>> You think that is equivalent to what's

23:36happening right now?

23:37>> It will be and I think

23:39>> going to happen.

23:39>> So, I believe uh before Trump Trump's

23:45term ends that it's all going to come

23:49out. What does that mean?

23:51>> Everything I've testified about, you

23:53know, the fact that, you know, we've

23:55been studying this for a while. We've

23:57recovered material aka intact

23:59semi-intact craft. We've, you know,

24:01recovered this anomalous intelligence

24:03piloting the craft. And, you know, we

24:05are reverse engineering that. And

24:09obviously, there's other parts to that.

24:11It's very complicated ecosystem. A lot

24:14of people who are just release it all,

24:15show us Indiana Jones warehouse tour

24:17don't appreciate the care that we're

24:20going to have to um proceed with because

24:24this is not a static ecosystem. This

24:25isn't just like archaeology where you're

24:27digging up stuff. There is you are

24:29dealing with you know third parties both

24:33human you know adversarial countries

24:35etc. they have their own program. Then

24:37you have, you know, our this anomalous

24:39intelligence, our visitors, NHI,

24:41whatever you want to call them,

24:42ultraterrestrial, depending on which

24:44taxonomy in the tree that you want to um

24:47ascribe some of this origin to. And and

24:51of course, you know, the the national

24:53security related technology that has

24:55been derived, we've derived great stuff

24:57to defend America. I've had exposure on

24:59that and you know, I'm very

25:00>> re it through back engineering.

25:03>> Yeah.

25:03>> 100%.

25:04>> Yes. Well, some of it it it was

25:08inspiration. It wasn't a a onetoone like

25:11we we we unlocked the iPhone. It was

25:13like, "Huh, that's an interesting

25:14material. Look at that um frequency

25:17selective surface property. You know

25:19what? We could use that for an aerospace

25:21application or whatever." And so, a lot

25:24of it was garnered via inspiration, not

25:27one to one. Yeah. In some cases, I

25:30suppose we did, but like that's been

25:32most of it. Yeah. So what's the holdup

25:34in terms of disclosure?

25:38>> I necessarily can't read the president's

25:41mind. Uh there's certainly a uh

25:44multilateral kind of diplomatic issue. I

25:46mean so we're in this this issue now

25:48where once we cross the Rubicon then we

25:52affect allies and adversaries. You know

25:53our adversaries have programs. What are

25:55they going to tell their citizenry? You

25:57have uh possible theological distress

25:59Vatican etc. And I'm, you know, I'm a

26:01Catholic and I I certainly appreciate

26:05uh the Vatican's long study on this

26:07subject and they just stayed quiet on

26:08what they know. And so it's there's a

26:10lot of like collateral effects if you're

26:13not careful with certain stuff. you you

26:16can you know trigger a response and

26:18there is great fear that uh I don't

26:21necessarily believe in this but like

26:23there has been assessments in the past

26:25that you know revealing certain things

26:27may you know trigger a response from a

26:30third party

26:31>> trigger a response from them from these

26:33>> possibly entities yes and that is a

26:36>> that has been written up uh government

26:40think tanks wrote that up in reports to

26:41previous presidents

26:42>> so the the the theory is that we

26:45disclosed

26:46people are now aware of it all over the

26:48globe and they decide to show

26:50themselves.

26:51>> Yeah. I mean, I think there's a real

26:53fear of like a Ghostbusters moment, I'll

26:55say. And Oh, boy. You know, and

26:59it's one of those things where

27:02I I'm trying to walk the line and be as

27:07diplomatic as possible and also trying

27:09to prepare the populace at the same time

27:11because clearly the government hasn't

27:13right now. And I mean, Trump wants it

27:14out for sure. His team needs to be

27:17astute enough to know what to ask for.

27:19Uh, you know, massage the deep state and

27:22and get that information because we just

27:24saw Tim Bchett on Benny Johnson's

27:27podcast talk about uh Steven Miller

27:29called him and was like, "Hey, I'm

27:30getting blocked like physically blocked

27:33from access to a lot of this stuff."

27:35And, you know, that's very concerning. I

27:36I would say Steven Miller is an alpha

27:38dog. He's a pitbull. And as a fellow

27:41alpha, I do appreciate his

27:43>> That's a silly thing to say. You know

27:44that, right?

27:45>> What?

27:46>> A fellow alpha.

27:47>> Fellow alpha.

27:50>> Opens yourself up to like tremendous

27:52amounts of ridicule.

27:53>> Yeah, I know. I know. I mean, nobody's

27:55perfect and I know everybody has their

27:57faults, but I do appreciate

27:59>> the ferveny. he is attacking the issue

28:02behind the scenes and I just I think he

28:04needs guided the right way and informed

28:06and and kind of how how to cut this

28:09deal. You know, like

28:10>> I met him very briefly at the UFC event

28:12at the White House and he told me that

28:14it's going to come out. I'm like, okay,

28:16>> that's good. Well, there you go.

28:17>> It was really quick.

28:18>> Yeah.

28:19>> Was like he's like, I'm just I know

28:20you're interested in this. This is

28:21literally all we talked about.

28:23>> The UFO thing is going to come out.

28:24>> Yeah.

28:25>> Like, okay, when when's that coming out?

28:27Let's go.

28:27>> Exactly. and and and and Trump

28:30understands the subject pretty good and

28:31you know he's in the know and

28:34he understands some of the implications.

28:36So I like I said he has a lot of courage

28:38because this is likely going to change

28:40society in a big way. I can't necess I'm

28:43not like a social anthropologist or a

28:44psychiatrist like I can't necessarily

28:47predict in what specific ways it might

28:49reduce you know feudal nation state peer

28:51competition and other things. Uh, but it

28:54is going to change and I and I think

28:56when people look back at this interview,

28:57it's gonna be very haunting because I

28:58think in short order, you know, before

29:01Trump leaves office, we're going to be

29:02in a new paradigm. And I'm normally a

29:05very pessimistic, cynical person. A lot

29:07of my friends know that. But I I have

29:10great confidence that the president is

29:12doing the right thing. And I I I feel um

29:15there's eventually going to there the

29:18people that are in charge of this are

29:19going to have to comply with the the

29:21president's order. And uh but there's a

29:23right way of of doing this, I think. And

29:25I, like I said, I'm not some sick of fan

29:27for the deep state. I'm a whistleblower,

29:28obviously. And you know, I have um

29:31philosophical differences about how this

29:33was kept and how they could possibly

29:36reveal stuff. But I I am surprisingly

29:40confident, which is which is kind of

29:41weird for me to say because I just see

29:43the tea leaves. I know Miller's serious.

29:46Um there's other people in government

29:47serious. I mean, even see Aaron Lucas,

29:49the PDDNI, the deputy director of

29:51national intelligence, you know, sign

29:53these big NDA waiverss. It includes like

29:55any kind of waiver of not even telling

29:56the president, sorry, you have to tell

29:58us kind of thing. And and so you you're

30:00seeing kind of the the chess board being

30:02set. I know everybody's not happy with

30:04the tranches coming out with the

30:05lowhanging fruit videos and and

30:07recordings and stuff. And Representative

30:09Burlson and I before I left his office

30:11recently got um a 1952 recording that

30:15was still classified from Blue Book

30:17talking about the seriousness of this

30:19issue and all the crazy that

30:20they're seeing near nuclear sites and

30:23test ranges, which is interesting

30:24because in in uh that video that's been

30:28declassified, it mentions the very sites

30:30that in modern day have that same

30:32anomalous activity to include stuff in

30:34the Southwest. So I can't say where it's

30:36in the ecosystem in the open source, but

30:38the the executive branch hasn't

30:40acknowledged what specific test and

30:42training range. They're seeing crazy

30:43orbs that they can't explain this acost

30:46helicopters and and all that. So

30:49>> um so is Trump experiencing resistance

30:52in your opinion?

30:55>> Yes. Um, and I don't know all the

30:59details, but uh, clearly clearly Miller

31:02has, and a lot of it is, I think, and I

31:05can't read the mind of the deep state,

31:07but as a former deep stater, uh, I would

31:09say that there's always been this kind

31:11of disdain for political appointees and

31:13they don't and members of Congress, like

31:15they don't they don't have the reverence

31:16on this issue. They're going to it

31:18up. They're going to, you know, say

31:20something that they shouldn't have about

31:21a classified program. And um that's why

31:24some classified programs are kept from

31:26Congress. It's called waved programs. Um

31:29and uh the only presidents that were

31:32really really involved were the ones

31:34like HW Bush, right? He was CI director.

31:36He was fully briefed on this issue. A

31:38lot of that lore is true about HW Bush.

31:40Cheney, like I've talked about, fully in

31:43this. He was the mob boss for many

31:45years. He was kind of the head of this

31:48activity. And so I think there's some um

31:52testing of the waters right now. It's

31:53kind of like cat's paw dynamic, like you

31:55know, we'll give you a little bit of

31:56this, a little bit of that, and they're

31:58they're seeing how the administration is

32:00going to potentially roll this out. And

32:02and obviously if the White House wants

32:04my opinion, I'm available. But um I do

32:07trust the president's team hopefully

32:09will be able to handle this. And because

32:12I if Trump doesn't enforce his order and

32:15see this through, I don't think any

32:17other president is going to be able. I

32:18mean I mean regardless of Democrat,

32:20left, right, whatever, like if he

32:22follows through on this, he's going to

32:24be the goat. He's going to be a legend.

32:26And you know, all the other things

32:28people have problems with in his

32:29presidency, Iran, whatever, I think this

32:32will um wipe those out. and this is like

32:35really important for his legacy to

32:38initiate the process before the 28

32:40election. Then there's like a hot

32:41handoff to the next um administration.

32:44And you know, if Trump's a political

32:46animal, he could easily line up a

32:48Republican team on the 28 ticket to

32:50basically, you know, be his continuity

32:52on this, too. I think that'd be very

32:53smart. And

32:55>> so this is going to take a long time to

32:56release. Is that how you're

33:00>> projecting this?

33:00>> That was always the plan back in the

33:02day. I just because it's like an

33:04anestization and climatization process.

33:07It's like, you know, okay, we're gonna

33:09focus on this topic. Everybody's this is

33:11going to get normalized. The temperature

33:12is going to cool and then we're going to

33:14bring in this shocking thing.

33:15>> So, there's a there's a schedule like in

33:18terms of like the psychological impact

33:20on the populace.

33:21>> There was in the past in terms of

33:23certain um government think tanks wrote

33:27classified assessments for uh previous

33:29presidents on this. I don't know what

33:31the current plan is. I'm just uh I'm

33:33currently literally a private citizen

33:34right now. But if they're going to do

33:37what they did in the past, it is

33:40>> and the slow roll out has its pluses and

33:43minuses. Like I would say due to human

33:45factors, risks of adversarial countries

33:47getting ahead of us, other

33:49whistleblowers, whatever. You probably

33:51have to roll this out in at least like

33:5312 months and whatnot. But we're in a

33:55precarious time if the administration

33:58doesn't start because uh China and

34:00Russia could take advantage of this

34:02moment now. Our weakness, you know,

34:04China has their famous uh belt and road

34:06initiative. Uh China has admitted

34:08publicly that they have a UAP task

34:10force. Obviously, they have more than

34:11that behind the scenes. And they

34:14actually announced that when the DoD UAP

34:17task force was announced, you can find a

34:19news article from June 2020 in the South

34:21China Morning Post where they talk about

34:22they're analyzing these encounters.

34:24They're using AI, etc. So,

34:26>> do you feel that China has or do you

34:28know if China has these crashed vehicles

34:32as well?

34:34>> There's parallel programs.

34:35>> There's parallel programs. Now, one of

34:38the things that Diana Pulka said when

34:40and and Gary Nolan refers to in the same

34:43way as well, they they refer to them as

34:45donations.

34:47>> Yeah, that's what's really interesting

34:48is I am aware of certain historical

34:50retrieval rules where they were like

34:52perfectly landed and it wasn't like a

34:54crash and what is what's going on there?

34:58I'm sure we've done a deep assessment. I

35:01never had access to that kind of

35:02information. I'm sure that we understand

35:05why that happened at some level, but

35:06that is true that that's actually

35:08happened.

35:08>> So the theory is that they want us to

35:11find these things so that we can examine

35:13the technology and perhaps work from it,

35:18>> like engineer it or like you were saying

35:20before, gain inspiration to try new

35:22>> Yeah. I mean, part of it's like throw in

35:24the gorilla banana, see if it can peel

35:26it. But also, the the more skeptical

35:28intel officer in me is like, is this a

35:30Trojan horse? Do you want us to uh

35:34figure things out and then get then get

35:35addicted to certain type of technology

35:38and then that creates a control loop uh

35:41where they start handling us whether we

35:43need raw resources to maintain a certain

35:46technology or as in this intelligence

35:49whatever this is this nonhuman

35:51intelligence

35:52>> right so if if it is a if it is a

35:56donation do you feel like this donation

35:59is evenly distributed amongst world

36:01powers.

36:03>> You know, I do not know the the the

36:07statistical distribution. That's very

36:09interesting. I I never understood the

36:12total number of retrievalss in um other

36:15countries participated in.

36:16>> Well, there's supposed to be quite a few

36:17in the United States.

36:18>> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's for sure. I

36:20don't know the answer to that actually.

36:22I'm sure there's a statistical analysis

36:25that'll come out in this process. You

36:26know,

36:26>> do you think there's any shared

36:27information between these governments?

36:30Do you think they communicate?

36:32>> There is a a gentleman's agreement. Uh

36:35the the top layer of it I can talk

36:37about, and I've talked about it

36:38previously, so it's not um anything

36:40super new. If you look at the accident

36:43measures agreement of 1971, which which

36:45is the short title of this god-awfully

36:47long title treaty that was signed in

36:49September 1971,

36:52you'll see article three of the treaty

36:54talks about UAP. And hey, if you see any

36:56unidentified objects around your nuclear

36:59or critical critical comms facilities,

37:01please call us, bro. And that was

37:02between the USSR in America. And then uh

37:06in 2013, the classified annex of that

37:09treaty got declassified. You can find it

37:11online at George Washington University

37:12National Security Archives, but it gives

37:15the nuke flash like the red line like

37:17code to say it was like Adam222, Adam

37:20333, and that's all declassified. and he

37:23would send that to the the Kremlin like

37:24hey uh we see weird around

37:28uh plac uh it's not us it's not a false

37:31flag and vice versa and so there was a

37:34redline comms for UAP activity between u

37:38Russia and the US and of course Russia

37:40and US during the Cold War had a mutual

37:41notification treaty for space launch

37:43vehicle and ICBM launches etc. Weirdly

37:47enough, we've never had that with China.

37:49Even to this day, we don't have a

37:51mutual, this is crazy. We don't have a

37:53mutual notification. If they're going to

37:54do like a a sub submarine launched

37:57ballistic missile test out of, you know,

37:59off their coast, they're not obligated

38:02by treaty to tell us. So, and sometimes

38:05they don't with certain national

38:07security activities. and and so uh

38:10Northern Command, NORAD, Missile Warning

38:12Center, other other places, uh NSA,

38:14DefMAC and Laurel, Maryland have to be

38:17on their agame to like make sure it was

38:18like a test because the Chinese aren't

38:21obligated to tell us. And I um a crazy

38:25story in that regard. The Indians did

38:28something like that to us. I was on duty

38:30in the NRO operations center. And by the

38:32way, I got this clear through security,

38:34so you know, NRO, don't shank me. Um uh

38:38basically there was an unexpected

38:41Indian uh missile test that hit one of

38:44their satellites in 2019. I think it was

38:46like March of 2019.

38:47>> One of our satellites.

38:48>> Oh no, not our uh one of their uh

38:51weather. Yeah. Their own defunct weather

38:53satellite and

38:54>> on purpose or an accident?

38:56>> On purpose. And

38:57>> they shot down one of their own

38:58satellites

38:59>> and they didn't tell us. I remember in

39:00my office at like all these different

39:02phones. I'm like calling the embassy all

39:04this. I'm like what the you know,

39:05and because we were worried at the NRO

39:08about the debris because we fly space,

39:10you know, spy satellites. That's the

39:11mission of the National Reconnaissance

39:12Office and I was the backup director of

39:14intelligence as a reser at the

39:16operations center where I was, you know,

39:18also handling the PDB for the director

39:19and I, you know, led the director's

39:22briefing team and, you know, I'm like

39:24going to the orbital analysts on the

39:26watch floor with all the crazy screens

39:27like calculate the the the debris field,

39:30you know, let me know if we have to

39:31maneuver something and blah blah blah.

39:33I'm like running up to the director's

39:35office in my uniform, you know, out of

39:37breath. I'm like, "Holy shit." You know,

39:39um, and it was kind of a big deal. And

39:41that's publicly, you know, you can

39:42Google that now. And, um, I remember

39:45when that went down, it was pretty

39:46crazy. So,

39:47>> that sounds completely insane.

39:49>> Yeah.

39:49>> So, are there other countries besides

39:53China, Russia, and US that supposedly

39:55have access to these vehicles?

39:57>> Yeah.

39:58>> Which other countries can you say? that

40:00I don't want to get into cuz that gets

40:02into some sensitive stuff,

40:04>> right? Um, supposedly this is like one

40:06of the best legends that there's a a

40:09craft that's so large they couldn't move

40:11it so they had to make a building around

40:12it and it's supposedly in Korea.

40:15>> A legend?

40:16>> I don't know.

40:16>> Oh, yeah. You do know. How dare you?

40:20But if you heard you've heard that

40:21rumor, I'm sure online.

40:22>> I've heard that rumor online. Yeah.

40:24>> Yeah. You don't know anything about

40:25that?

40:26>> Yeah. We'll let the federal government.

40:28Do you have any personal experience with

40:30any of this stuff?

40:31>> You know, it's funny you asked that. I,

40:34as far as I can remember, I have no

40:37experience with the phenomenon. Like a

40:39lot of a lot of people in this, I guess,

40:41ufology or whatever you want to call it,

40:43they have that personal experience like,

40:45oh yeah, when I was a kid, I saw an orb

40:47or whatever. And

40:48>> I have zero. I've seen a couple

40:50interesting things in the sky that, you

40:52know, could have been satellite passes.

40:54I've been an amateur astronomer besides

40:55having a physics degree. I've been an

40:57amateur astronomer since like I was like

40:59in middle school like 12 13 years old

41:00and and I still have never seen anything

41:03in my personal life uh in a stupendous

41:06nature. I've never had any kind of

41:08spooky woo stuff happen

41:10>> never been visited.

41:11>> No. and and and that's why like I was

41:13open to this you know I'm a child of the

41:1580 well I grew up at I was born in the

41:1680s you know most of my childhood was in

41:18the 90s and you know I watched XFiles

41:21and Star Trek Next Gen and of course I'm

41:24like you know I'm a precocious teen

41:26reading like brief history time and you

41:29know Isaac Azimov and I'm learning about

41:31the Draco equation I'm like there's

41:32probably life but who knows and I'm I'm

41:35open to it and then you know when I got

41:37in into the intelligence community

41:38that's like the first thing I looked up

41:40like on the I'm like on the computer.

41:42I'm like I go on to a certain database.

41:44I'm like type it in Area 51, you know,

41:46UFOs. Like everybody's done that who's

41:48who's gone through intel school whether

41:50they admit it or not. And of course, I

41:51didn't see anything or anything.

41:53>> Um the only thing I bumped into early in

41:55my career in like 2009, I remember

41:58reading the OSAP uh the Defense

42:01Intelligence reference documents, the

42:02DIDs, and at the time I had no idea what

42:05they were doing. And turns out it was

42:07obviously UAP related, but I was reading

42:09why why is the DIA looking into magneto

42:12hydrodnamic propulsion and uh cloaking

42:16and all all this other stuff. And of

42:18course I find out later what it was, but

42:20I had absolutely no uh personal

42:23experience and even professionally

42:26uh for most of my career. Now I found

42:28out behind the scenes later like, "Oh,

42:30you remember that top secret program

42:32you're working on, Dave? you were

42:33actually uh looking for UAP and you

42:36didn't know it. I'm like what? And and

42:38of course, you know, I find out and I

42:40learn about, you know, how they hid all

42:42this infrastructure and they used a lot

42:44of conventional national security

42:47intelligence collection architecture to

42:48basically facilitate this crash

42:51retrieval program, which makes sense

42:52because they're not going to reinvent

42:53the wheel and, you know, totally have a

42:56separate infrastructure to use to like

42:58figure out if stuff crashed, activity,

43:01etc., right? And um you know early I

43:06would say

43:08about 10 years into my career I remember

43:10some imagery analysts saying hey Dave

43:13you know like uh they told us to

43:14airbrush some stuff out of photos and

43:16stuff and it was round and I'm like okay

43:19dude well maybe that's something you're

43:20not clear to or whatever. And I do

43:22remember that and I had some suspicious

43:26recruitment earlier in my career too. I

43:28was on some really sensitive stuff that

43:30I ended up finding out it was um

43:32directly adjacent to the program and I

43:34went through this whole like smoking man

43:36recruitment thing for a year and you

43:39know was told I was going to get these

43:41kind of bizarre accesses and I'm like

43:43what are you talking about and

43:44ultimately I was never recruited and I

43:46kind of just like put filed that in the

43:48back of my brain for years but like I've

43:50said uh you know before it wasn't until

43:52like spring of 2017 I was at the CIA

43:55briefing um the deputy director staff on

43:58a bunch of DoD classified programs and

44:01the chief of um a very sensitive office

44:04at the agency pulled me aside and was

44:05like, "Dave, what what do you know about

44:07UFOs? Like uh I hear there's like a

44:09program at the Pentagon and all that."

44:11And and and I'm like, "I don't know."

44:14Like I'm briefed almost every DoD

44:16program at the time by the way and

44:17hundreds of of of programs in the

44:19intelligence community because I was in

44:20a position of very high trust and I you

44:22know I'm very patriotic and I'm very

44:23humbled that I was in a position like

44:25that in my 30s and and I didn't think

44:28anything of it until until this this

44:31subject got more popularized people went

44:33public you know Tom Dong TTSA and all

44:35that and and and then I was

44:39professionally interested but not really

44:40working on it in 2018 and then early in

44:4319 is when I got brought on as the NRO

44:47rep to the the then Navy task force

44:49which became the DoD's, you know, UAP

44:51task force. That's kind of my origin

44:53story. And and so I was always I'm

44:55always been curious, but I never saw

44:57evidence and I never had any personal

44:59experience with the phenomenon that kind

45:01of kind of colors my uh judgment on

45:03this, I guess. So,

45:05>> so I'm sure you're aware of how put off

45:07when he was uh tasked by the Bush

45:10administration along with a bunch of

45:11other thinkers to try to come up with

45:13pros and cons for disclosure.

45:15>> Yeah, I knew some other people in that

45:16meeting and I verified that meeting took

45:19place and even even Arrow admitted in

45:23their volume one report which was

45:24horrible. Well, that's a long story.

45:26Painful. Uh, that it it took place, but

45:28it was just a hypothetical scenario at a

45:31a fedally funded research and

45:33development center in Northern Virginia.

45:34>> What year was this?

45:35>> 2004. It was like November of 2004. And

45:39it's like, but why was it hypothetical

45:42if it's not real? Nobody explains that.

45:45And obviously the story is, you know,

45:47Steve Hadley, who was the national

45:48security adviser, uh, sponsored it. You

45:50know, I I believe Hadley denies it, but

45:53you know, who knows if Steve would uh

45:55you know, tell the truth on that just

45:56because of the sensitivity. So,

45:58>> and so for people that don't know what

46:00happened, supposedly they brought in a

46:02bunch of different thought leaders and

46:04they gave them uh a pro and a con side,

46:07like what would be negatively affected

46:09by disclosure, what would be positively

46:11affected by disclosure, and attached a

46:13numerical value to each group.

46:15>> Correct. They had like a computer system

46:17there that like tabulated everything

46:18from what I know talking to other

46:21attendees

46:21>> and virtually every one of them had more

46:24negative than positive and so the

46:27decision was made to not disclose.

46:29>> Well, yeah. And in the main decision, if

46:31I remember correctly was the federal

46:33contracts fraud. Well, that could be

46:36debated in, you know, the Supreme Court.

46:38But uh they realized a lot of and so

46:41this is another issue of disclosure

46:43besides the onlogical thought shock and

46:44people can't handling it and like

46:46>> misappropriation of funds.

46:47>> Yeah. And misappropriation of funds and

46:49all that. It's oh so these set of

46:52contractors got sole source contracts

46:54and exclusive access to this for

46:56internal research and development where

46:58they figure out something then sell it

46:59back to the government etc. for all

47:01these decades. What about my mid-level

47:03small business and my contractor and

47:06blah blah blah. And so you're going to

47:08they were afraid that you would see

47:10legal challenges going to the Supreme

47:11Court in violation of what they call the

47:13DEFARS, right? The defense federal

47:15acquisition regulations,

47:16>> right?

47:16>> And the the government would be liable

47:20for who knows billions of

47:22dollars worth of monies that they spent

47:25on this to these contractor partners

47:28that got in back in the day and like,

47:30well, we're not exposing any more

47:31people. We're locking it down. and what

47:33they call a JNA, justification and

47:35approval for a soul source contract.

47:37This is a reason national security like

47:39we can't expose any more people to this.

47:41And of course that also causes a brain

47:43drain and group think and and actually

47:45hurts the defense uh industrial base.

47:48But that was the main reason. It wasn't

47:50oh uh you know upcoming millennials that

47:53are turning 18 can't handle it. It was

47:55like yeah we're we're kind of culpable

47:58and kind of a up contractual

48:00relationship. And and that's going to be

48:02something that the the Trump

48:03administration is going to have to deal

48:04with. It's like, well, how do I reorient

48:06the defense and industrial base? I mean,

48:09this could trigger a golden era of

48:11innovation in America. More people get

48:12to play. You overtly can take the basic

48:15information that's not sensitive um and

48:18put it into academia, right? So, you

48:19have undergraduate, graduate, post-doal

48:21programs, and you actually create this

48:24like more educated workforce to actually

48:26benefit national security. But, and and

48:28China doesn't have this issue. They're

48:30they're pulling people from pick a

48:32university in China, Nanjing, whatever

48:34university, and they're sucking them

48:36into these programs and but in America,

48:39we don't have that kind of permissive

48:40totalitarian environment. So,

48:42>> well, in China, they probably don't have

48:44the issue with misappropriation of funds

48:46and lying to Congress.

48:47>> No, CCP, baby. You know, do whatever you

48:49want.

48:49>> They do whatever they want. So, they

48:51don't have to worry about liability. So,

48:53this is one of the things that came up

48:54in that film, Age of Disclosure, is that

48:57you're going to have to make some sort

48:59of a amnesty program.

49:01>> Yeah. And I'm I am for that as long it's

49:05like use immunity for specific uh

49:08testimony or

49:09>> as long as it doesn't cover like this

49:10other you're talking about.

49:12>> Like my and of course I know who's

49:14watching people clearly that are from

49:16this ecosystem. Um, you know, I would,

49:19you know, expect that like everybody's

49:22been basically good Americans. There's a

49:24small cast of characters that have done

49:26unspeakable things. I mean, how they

49:27wanted to kill me. This is like

49:28it's disturbing and and you wonder why I

49:31had to become a whistleblower. I didn't

49:32want to do this but like I was

49:34pushed over the edge uh to do that, you

49:36know? I digress. But like besides like

49:40bluecollar really up criminal

49:43shits, which you know, once again, there

49:45is a judicial justice process in

49:47America, you know, we're not going to do

49:49street justice here. We will, you know,

49:51take care of that professionally. Um,

49:54like I took care of the other criminal

49:55stuff I found out professionally. I'm

49:57like, look, I'm, you know, and and and

49:59when I was doing that, I mean, I was

50:00meeting people body armor armed with

50:04colleagues of mine that were, you know,

50:05rolling heavy, too. And like it was a

50:07very serious part of my investigation.

50:10But yeah, I I believe in amnesty, but I

50:12I think we need to do it like a truth

50:14and reconciliation commission, which was

50:16in post-apartid South Africa in the 90s

50:18where you had um you know, some white

50:21farmer comes in, it's like, yeah, I

50:22murdered a bunch of black people or

50:24whatever, you know, and it's like, okay,

50:25thank you for telling us that. You're

50:27good. You know, don't do it again and

50:29move on. I'm I mean, I'm distilling it

50:31down, but that's essentially what the

50:32TRC in South Africa was. And I think

50:34something like that would be very

50:36additive and good because I mean I have

50:39friends that run the program. They're

50:40they're great guys. They're bros you

50:41know and gals and um they you know were

50:45signed paperwork you know it was like if

50:47you you know divulge this it's under

50:49penalty of treason you go to Levvenworth

50:51or you know capital punishment.

50:54>> And yeah

50:55>> let's break down what you know.

50:57>> Yeah

50:58>> and what you can say.

50:59>> Yeah. What are these things and what are

51:02they capable of?

51:04>> So,

51:06uh, there's like physical and

51:08non-physical, call it UAP and

51:11intelligence we're likely dealing with.

51:13So, for example, the orbs, could that be

51:16sentient plasmoid? Possibly

51:19>> sentient plasmoid. So, plasma that has

51:21consciousness.

51:22>> Yeah. in some way and that could be like

51:24you're seeing the other side of some

51:26sort of wormhole and it's some other

51:28intelligence shooting this like I'll

51:30call it like plasmoidic probe into you

51:32know our existence I mean there's this

51:34is of course a theoretical framework and

51:36once again I don't have a PhD in

51:37>> but it's theoretical that there is a

51:39life form that is a plasmabased life

51:42form

51:42>> and there's already papers on the open

51:44internet about this a couple years ago

51:46what's the title of the the paper they

51:49wrote about this possibility so this is

51:51a um academic assessment of a

51:55possibility of the orbs. Now, could the

51:58orbs actually be physical craft, but

52:00they have a sheath of plasma around it?

52:02Interestingly enough, and OAP did a

52:06defense intelligence reference document

52:08on magneto hydrodnamic propulsion, um

52:11which if you remember the the movie The

52:13Hunt for Red October,

52:14>> that's the Caterpillar Drive on the

52:16Russian submarine, you know, back in the

52:18day. Uh and of course uh with MHD you

52:22can also do it you have to use a

52:24conductive fluid um either salt seawater

52:27that has salt in it or uh you could do

52:29it in the air but you have to create a

52:31plasma and you steer the plasma with

52:33it's called the lorren force it's it's

52:35basically have a perpendicular magnetic

52:37field large amount electricity and you

52:40can basically through the lorren force

52:42which is like ionic propulsion sort of

52:44um uh control it in the in the

52:46atmosphere as well and you can you know

52:48read papers on that and I e and and

52:51other stuff like that and so one of the

52:53byproducts of an air breathing MHD

52:56system is plasma around it. So depending

53:00on the size of the orb um it is

53:02conceivable that there's a physical

53:05craft behind it as well just by as an

53:06artifact of the propulsion system. Uh

53:08once again that's a a theory. I'm sure

53:11the program knows and that will be

53:13communicated at a later date but like

53:14you know that's Yeah.

53:15>> So this theory about sentient plasma

53:19>> Yeah.

53:20>> is it the idea that we have a very

53:23narrow-minded view of what life can be

53:26>> and that life as it evolved in other

53:29places in other parts of the universe

53:32>> went noncroporeal at some point like the

53:34the meat suit sucks. We're going to

53:36>> right

53:37>> be an energetic

53:37>> like this is an ultimate expression of

53:40both technology and at least enhanced

53:44evolution that eventually consciousness

53:46is isolated or consciousness may be

53:49ubiquitous and exists in everything

53:52anyway and that yeah

53:54>> yeah certainly and I'm not the the

53:56expert in I would say the the

53:57consciousness theory I like the Penrose

54:00Hamarov orc O theory which is the

54:02microtubules the room temperature So

54:05microtubules are in neurons of the brain

54:07and you have this like room temperature

54:08quantum system that can collapse the

54:11wave function without an observer and

54:14that's what Roger Penrose and Stuart

54:16Hamarov and I've talked to Hamarov crazy

54:18smart guy um he's an anesthesiologist by

54:21training and Penrose obviously is a very

54:22famous mathematician and uh physics

54:25legend and uh that's how they view

54:28consciousness. I'm not saying that's the

54:29exact model. I happen to prefer it

54:32because it's very trippy and very

54:33interesting and does explain spooky

54:35action and like um telepathy because oh

54:39well if it's just a quantum system then

54:40I'm like quantumly entangled. Oh that

54:41makes sense now like why remote viewing

54:44and other stuff works right.

54:46>> Yeah.

54:46>> Okay. So you have some sort of

54:49plasabased intelligence.

54:52>> Yeah.

54:52>> And then what else?

54:54So obviously there has been the physical

54:57craft of all different flavors like I've

55:00talked about it. You know the tic tacs

55:01are real. There's eggs. There's

55:03different types of discs. There's boot

55:05heels sunfish looking things. Um uh

55:08boomerangs crescent moon looking uh

55:10craft as well. And obviously

55:13all those have different

55:15um origins in terms of pilots and

55:18whatnot. There's a there's a little bit

55:20of overlap. It's almost like uh certain

55:23people like the Porsche 911 or Ford

55:26Mustang. They they kind of build the

55:27same shape and that's probably

55:28indicative of the technology or the

55:30propulsion system.

55:31>> I'm not an expert in exactly why that

55:34is. And yeah, we've recovered, you know,

55:36sever several different types and it's a

55:38it's once again it's a taxonomy where

55:41it's almost like like not all white

55:44people look the same, right? same idea

55:46where you might have like a species per

55:48se but then there's sort of like subsets

55:51right

55:52>> now

55:54is there a theory or is there

55:56information based on where these things

55:58are from and that there different ones

56:00are from different places

56:02>> there is but I never got access to that

56:07and even if the information was once

56:10again how would you like um confirm that

56:12as a skeptical former uh human intg ence

56:15officer, you have some sort of NHI

56:18communicating to you, oh, I'm from star

56:20system X, Y, and Z. Right?

56:21>> Cool. Is that denial and deception, you

56:24know, activities? Are you misdirecting?

56:26You're from somewhere else. So,

56:28>> uh, even if they said they told us, how

56:31would you verify that? I mean, there's

56:32certainly obviously ways

56:34>> and but some of it seems once again

56:38extraterrestrial is part of the pie

56:40here, right? There's a, you know,

56:42there's ultraterrestrial and other

56:43things. And I it does seem like a lot of

56:46it's been here for a while and also

56:51seems so similar to us that I have

56:55questions. And once again, this isn't

56:56rhetorical. I don't know the answer.

56:57It's like, well, is this bio-engineered?

57:00Is this uh a break from our tree? Is

57:03this um some sort of other technology?

57:07Uh like chameleon type technology, if

57:10you will. I don't I don't know the

57:11answer to that. So I I think that's

57:14>> what are the prevailing theories amongst

57:15the people that are working on this

57:16though.

57:17>> Yeah. So

57:18>> like do they have answers or do they

57:19just have theories?

57:21>> I am not certain of that because I do

57:23not have that level of knowledge and as

57:26the government rolls that out I'm happy

57:29to you know parse that with the American

57:31people in public and kind of explain my

57:34opinion on things as gaps and

57:36information for myself is filled in

57:38because I'm not omnipotent. I didn't

57:40have full access and I only know what I

57:42know. And that's why I've I've treated

57:44this with such reverence because even me

57:47going public, I'm like, I don't

57:48know what this is going to trigger

57:50besides my own personal safety, which

57:51clearly I was under duress and and I had

57:54to even resign my Air Force Commission.

57:56Didn't even fully retire and I'm trying

57:58to get that fixed. I, you know, filed

57:59something with the Air Force board a

58:01year ago so I can actually retire and

58:04have my benefits because I, you know, I

58:06miss my promotional lieutenant colonel

58:07and other stuff. But um I digress. But

58:12certainly

58:14there is such similarity that there was

58:17a concern and uh from a genomic

58:20perspective and there was work on that

58:21to compare genomes. Unfortunately, I

58:23don't know the answer to that and what

58:24they found out

58:26>> work to compare genomes from biological

58:28samples.

58:29>> Uh yeah, dead cadaavvers. Yeah.

58:31>> So that's real.

58:33>> Oh, 100%. Yeah.

58:34>> So there are

58:35>> Oh yeah, I know that for sure. you. How

58:37do you know that for sure?

58:38>> I got to see the audio visual on that

58:40side.

58:41>> You got to see what?

58:42>> Yeah. So, I got to be a little vague

58:44only because I want to protect the

58:46sources because it may indicate a

58:48specific activity or operation and these

58:50people were very patriotic and um they

58:54were just dead cadaavvers in you know on

58:57the ground because it was a retrieval

58:59activity. Yeah.

59:00>> You saw them physically or you saw video

59:02of them?

59:02>> Video.

59:03>> Video.

59:03>> Yeah. So you saw a dead cadaavver that

59:07was at a crash.

59:09>> Yes.

59:10>> So they filmed the crash and they filmed

59:14these cadaavvers.

59:15>> Yeah.

59:15>> How old is this footage?

59:17>> Uh I don't want to say. Okay.

59:18>> It's contemporary, but I

59:19>> It's contemporary.

59:20>> Yeah. But I don't want to reveal a

59:21particular operation because it narrows

59:23it down.

59:24>> But it's clear. It's not like you're

59:26looking 1950s black and white. It's

59:29clear. And do know, you know, when I get

59:33that kind of information, you know, I'm

59:34like, okay, tell me what it is, what

59:36what happened, and then I put it out for

59:37collection, so to speak, and then I

59:39confirm it independently because I was

59:41very uh allergic to any kind of

59:43deception, right? Like in the in the

59:45advent of AI, Sora AI, you can you can

59:47create a very realistic and so I was

59:50very anal retentive when I was given

59:53documents, audiovisisual, etc. And I sat

59:56on that stuff for like years until I

59:58felt comfortable with that not being

1:00:00some sort of limited hangout or

1:00:02deception activity. So yeah.

1:00:05>> What did it look like?

1:00:06>> Human looking.

1:00:07>> How human?

1:00:08>> Very

1:00:09>> like like looked like a human or looked

1:00:12similar to a human.

1:00:13>> Very

1:00:15very beautiful. And

1:00:17>> beautiful.

1:00:17>> It and I I said

1:00:19>> what color was the skin?

1:00:20>> Uh bluish white and super close. No, no,

1:00:24no, no, no. It like

1:00:26>> like someone who drowned

1:00:27>> like a pale sort of albino and

1:00:30>> and it's interesting and I said this in

1:00:32another interview that's not out yet,

1:00:33but and and God willing this is my last

1:00:36interview for a while hopefully in

1:00:38pre-disclosure environment, you know,

1:00:40and uh General McCaslin when he was

1:00:43talking to Dong and this is public

1:00:45record. Tom's talked about it on I think

1:00:47your show and other interviews where he

1:00:49always told Tom think of the Greek gods

1:00:51and and Oh, true. you look it up and and

1:00:55now I kind of understand what he meant.

1:00:56But General McCaslin, who disappeared

1:00:58within a week of Trump giving the the

1:01:00declassification order on UAP in

1:01:03February 2026, there's a lot of reasons

1:01:05why uh Mccasin's disappearance uh

1:01:08>> disappeared. Um he walked out of his

1:01:11residence in Albuquerque and vanished.

1:01:13>> Oh, that's right. That guy. Yeah.

1:01:15>> Yeah. And nobody knows. And I, you know,

1:01:18I have a relationship obviously with

1:01:20Justice and

1:01:22nobody knows what happened to

1:01:23the guy.

1:01:25>> And he like he left home so he

1:01:27couldn't be tracked. I think his phone

1:01:28was left but you know one of his

1:01:30firearms was missing. It's like very

1:01:32weird. So

1:01:34>> Right. He left without his phone.

1:01:35>> Yeah.

1:01:35>> Yeah. That was one of the weird parts

1:01:37about it.

1:01:38>> Yeah. And and once again he was going on

1:01:41a trip with like 18 of his friends. He

1:01:42went to REI the day before to get like a

1:01:45medical kit and other supplies and I

1:01:48mean obviously his wife's

1:01:51discussion about him the body cam

1:01:52footage is public and you know he had

1:01:55some mental health issues nothing major

1:01:58and and um some aging type issues but

1:02:03she didn't think you know he was going

1:02:05to like kill himself or whatever. So, I

1:02:06mean, you never know. And I've had

1:02:07friends unfortunately uh pass away

1:02:10through suicide in the military, but

1:02:12it's very bizarre and it's when within a

1:02:15week of Trump that coming out and um

1:02:18>> just say I know a lot about General

1:02:19McCass.

1:02:20>> Well, there's quite a few scientists

1:02:21that were connected to UF UAP disclosure

1:02:25or UAP potential back engineering

1:02:27projects or mysterious projects

1:02:29>> possibly. I think

1:02:30>> do you think there was more like

1:02:32>> to be fair was a little overblown and I

1:02:34don't think there was a ton of

1:02:35correlation like one was like a female

1:02:37that worked at Air Force Research Lab

1:02:39when Macccasin was a commander. I think

1:02:41that was one of Well, I mean there's a

1:02:43lot of people that work at Air Force

1:02:44Research Lab. That doesn't mean it's

1:02:45necessarily related to the topic. I the

1:02:48only one

1:02:48>> didn't she have did didn't that one

1:02:50particular lady if it's the same person

1:02:52didn't she have some sort of research

1:02:54that was on material science?

1:02:56>> That sounds correct. I'm not totally

1:02:58conversant on all the people that

1:03:00disappeared. The only one besides Maslin

1:03:04that was very concerning to me was my

1:03:07Air Force friend that um died

1:03:10mysteriously about two years ago. And

1:03:14it's an open investigation, so I won't

1:03:16get into all the gory detail of my

1:03:17assessments. Um it I mean it's binary.

1:03:20It's either a very tragic thing, either

1:03:23self harm or otherwise, or it was

1:03:25something else. and my friend uh his

1:03:29name's Matthew Sullivan calls sign quake

1:03:31in the air force him and I were on

1:03:32active duty together uh he was on the

1:03:35program and he was uh one of my sources

1:03:39and I and I once again I don't name

1:03:41people but like he unfortunately has

1:03:43passed so I want to make that clear

1:03:45>> this video do you think this will be a

1:03:47part of disclosure that we'll get to see

1:03:50this video of these dead bodies

1:03:51>> probably

1:03:54so there's a there's a lot audiovisisual

1:03:56stuff. The problem with the the with the

1:03:58the current climate, like you're going

1:04:00to have to wheel out the physical

1:04:01evidence, too, cuz people are the trust

1:04:03in government is so low right now. Like

1:04:04you you could show a video, but people

1:04:06are going to be like, "Oh, well that's

1:04:08just the US government with us,

1:04:10and you're going to have to

1:04:12>> curate a wheel out literally like, you

1:04:14know, put it in the Uvar Hazy Center,

1:04:16the Smithsonian, and then give the

1:04:18biological samples to Eric Weinstein,

1:04:22who I know he wants it." And

1:04:24>> why would you give it to him? Well, he

1:04:26says he has people that test it. Um,

1:04:29>> I have people that test it, too.

1:04:30>> Yeah, but give it to me.

1:04:32>> I'm just I'm just saying that

1:04:33>> it's all ridiculous and give it to who?

1:04:35There should be a way that human beings

1:04:38uh other than the government can look at

1:04:40this stuff.

1:04:40>> Well, there needs to be an independent

1:04:42process. Yeah.

1:04:43>> Right now, is this stuff

1:04:46>> So, this is contemporary this this dead

1:04:49body thing.

1:04:50>> And so, this is a fairly recent crash.

1:04:54>> Mhm. And did these things have all the

1:04:58characteristics of a human being? Did

1:05:00they have ears? And

1:05:01>> as far as I could recall, and it wasn't

1:05:03like all they have close up. Oh, yeah.

1:05:06>> They had hair. What color was the hair?

1:05:08>> It was like grayish and all that. It was

1:05:11The problem is I don't give the nature

1:05:13of the the video. It wasn't super close

1:05:17up. It was like,

1:05:17>> of course not

1:05:18>> during the operation. So, it's not like

1:05:20>> during the operation of retrieval.

1:05:22>> Yeah. Okay. And then they they had these

1:05:25things. So what is your understanding of

1:05:28what happens to these bodies?

1:05:30>> Oh, they're kept for analysis. And

1:05:32>> how do they keep them? They freeze them.

1:05:34>> Yeah. Yeah.

1:05:35>> Yeah. I don't know the exact process.

1:05:36I'm not a biologist, but they do put it

1:05:38in some sort of preservation status. So

1:05:42>> Huh.

1:05:43>> Yeah.

1:05:43>> So was that the most compelling thing

1:05:45you saw?

1:05:47Yes, because you know it couples with

1:05:50you know both the the craft and the

1:05:52alleged you know occupants and you there

1:05:54was some other stuff in that in that

1:05:56area that I got to be careful talking

1:05:58about because it's so specific that

1:06:00it'll easily ID the you know the patriot

1:06:02that helped me on that.

1:06:04>> Um and once again I want the public to

1:06:06see all this stuff and I you don't take

1:06:09my word for it. Plead with the president

1:06:11to make sure this comes out. He's really

1:06:13courageous to do so and I just I hope

1:06:15this all comes out.

1:06:15>> When you say contemporary, you mean last

1:06:1720 years, more recent?

1:06:19>> I don't even want to characterize it,

1:06:20but it's it's contemporary.

1:06:22>> And when you say Greek gods, like do

1:06:24these these creatures actually look like

1:06:28something special, like not just like a

1:06:30regular person. You said beautiful.

1:06:32>> Yeah. Just very oddly it and it's been a

1:06:35while and but I'm just trying to

1:06:36visualize in my mind. It was just very

1:06:38very beautiful. It was just

1:06:40>> Were they wearing an outfit?

1:06:42>> Uh, it looked like it like some kind of

1:06:44form fitting thing, but I didn't get a

1:06:45good look at it.

1:06:46>> Spandex?

1:06:47>> I don't know. I didn't get a good look

1:06:48at it, honestly.

1:06:49>> You didn't?

1:06:50>> No. I mean, it was like a a pan. So,

1:06:52>> okay. So, they didn't even focus on the

1:06:54bodies. They just like, "Oh, there's a

1:06:55body of there." You know, people had a

1:06:58job to do,

1:06:59>> right? Did you worry that that that's a

1:07:01scop that you're being shown something

1:07:02that's horseshit? Well, like I said, I

1:07:04was very careful with that and confirmed

1:07:06it through other sources and methods to

1:07:08make sure it wasn't some sort of hangout

1:07:11from some government element trying to

1:07:12sway me one way or the other. And

1:07:15>> so, you independently verified that

1:07:16there was an event.

1:07:18>> Yeah, I did.

1:07:19>> Okay. And then there's footage of this

1:07:21event. And in this footage of this

1:07:22event, how many bodies were there?

1:07:24>> I think three or four is what I saw. I

1:07:26don't know what the total was.

1:07:26>> Did they have gender?

1:07:28>> Um, looked amorphous to me, but once

1:07:31again, it was a pan. Really? It wasn't.

1:07:32Yeah. Okay.

1:07:33>> Yeah.

1:07:33>> Long hair, short hair,

1:07:35>> long.

1:07:36>> All of them.

1:07:38>> Yeah.

1:07:38>> Hm.

1:07:38>> That I could recall. Yeah.

1:07:40>> The Greek gods thing is very weird.

1:07:42>> It's weird. And

1:07:43>> it's a weird comparison. Like you stop

1:07:44and think about that. Yeah. Well, why

1:07:46were the Greek gods

1:07:47>> so beautiful?

1:07:48>> It's funny you say that cuz like I think

1:07:50about like breakaway human. I mean, once

1:07:52again, I'm just I'm just

1:07:54>> or maybe even an original civilization

1:07:56that existed before.

1:07:58>> Yeah. There's more people are leaning in

1:08:01that direction when they start looking

1:08:03at some of the stuff that's underneath

1:08:04the pyramids and some of the weird

1:08:06structures that they're finding all over

1:08:07the earth. Like how how are these

1:08:09things? We had a whole podcast yesterday

1:08:11about it. It's like how are these things

1:08:13made? Who made these things? Like what?

1:08:15>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously I I follow

1:08:17Graham Hancock and Randle Carlson just,

1:08:19you know, casually and

1:08:21>> and I do have um not fears, but uh you

1:08:25know, I have questions about some sort

1:08:27of breakaway human civilization and that

1:08:29explains some of this or it's

1:08:31bio-engineered because like for them to

1:08:33develop naturally say off planet say

1:08:36it's extraterrestrial that it looks

1:08:38almost dead ringer like us like that

1:08:41doesn't make any sense to me.

1:08:42>> Well, does it make sense? If we're

1:08:43engineered, then it makes sense. So,

1:08:46>> that is that is certainly a possibility.

1:08:48You know, I have questions about that,

1:08:49too.

1:08:50>> This is a this is what Bob Lazar

1:08:53believes. I had a long conversation with

1:08:54him about that. He thinks that human

1:08:57beings are a product of genetic some

1:08:59sort of manipulation.

1:09:01>> And I think hypothetically, if that

1:09:05ended up being verified in some way,

1:09:06shape, or form, you know, how how does

1:09:09that change humanity? What does it mean

1:09:10to be human? And I I think there's a lot

1:09:11of deep human sovereignty and other

1:09:13questions uh on that if that ends up

1:09:16being the case.

1:09:16>> Well, it gets weird because we're

1:09:18willing to believe that an omnipotent

1:09:20god created us out of nothing. That's

1:09:24cool. But the idea that we were visited

1:09:26by what's essentially almost godlike in

1:09:30their powers and abilities, some

1:09:31creature from somewhere else or some

1:09:33being, some super hyper intelligent

1:09:36being from somewhere else

1:09:37>> and they manipulated us. That bothers

1:09:39us. I know. And I weird. My biggest

1:09:41regret was not getting access to like

1:09:43the biological assessment reports and

1:09:45stuff like that. I was getting enough

1:09:47spears thrown my way and I was, you

1:09:48know, in literal danger. So, I

1:09:50unfortunately wasn't able to kind of,

1:09:52you know, um, get access to that stuff.

1:09:55>> Have you talked to anybody who did get

1:09:56access to it?

1:09:58>> Um,

1:10:00not on that side of the program in terms

1:10:02of like the scientists analyzing the

1:10:04bodies. No. I just I know people that

1:10:07are good friends of mine that were on

1:10:09retrievalss and saw them as well in

1:10:11person. And once again, I'm like

1:10:13comparing like did did you it look like

1:10:14this? It look like this? Did this

1:10:15happen? Was it this type of craft?

1:10:17>> Do they vary in terms of what they saw?

1:10:19>> Yes. And uh some of my colleagues saw

1:10:23them alive as well.

1:10:25>> Yeah.

1:10:26>> What did they see alive? Like the Greek

1:10:27god looking ones?

1:10:28>> Uh no. Uh it's

1:10:31the pop culture. I can't believe I want

1:10:34to talk about this. Uh the pop culture

1:10:36>> uh reptilian looking

1:10:37>> reptilian

1:10:39>> the the grays yes as well those are real

1:10:42once again the aerial school phenomenon

1:10:44in 1994 very well documented mass

1:10:46sighting what does it

1:10:48>> is that Zimbabwe

1:10:49>> yeah near a uranium mine

1:10:52>> and they saw small gray beings coming

1:10:54out of a lenticular disc craft once

1:10:56again this is why it's almost like not

1:10:59that shocking it's like yeah they look

1:11:00like that no

1:11:02>> well that story has been going on for a

1:11:05long time and that iconic. The problem

1:11:07with like iconic imagery is that now you

1:11:10have it in your head what to expect and

1:11:13like that was like from the movie

1:11:15Contact. Remember the movie Contact?

1:11:16Like it showed itself.

1:11:17>> Great movie. Great movie. I know my boy

1:11:20Amomar, I got him hooked on that movie.

1:11:22He watches it like every quarter.

1:11:23>> It's a phenomenal movie.

1:11:25>> But there's a scene in the movie where

1:11:27the alien shows itself as Jodie Foster's

1:11:31dad. I know because it's something that

1:11:33she can handle

1:11:34>> and that's what it's funny you say that

1:11:36that's what if they're bio-engineered

1:11:38then that makes sense because of that

1:11:39ease of contact ease of communication

1:11:42also less onlogically shocking it's

1:11:44familiar

1:11:44>> right

1:11:45>> and and I think as this rolls out I

1:11:49think the American people need to think

1:11:50about like okay well if you know I'm

1:11:52presented with this reality how would I

1:11:54react you know I I just think of them

1:11:56personally as like it's like my West

1:11:57Virginia cousins you know it's like

1:11:59different part of the family you But but

1:12:01I'm cool with them. And uh

1:12:03>> that's a

1:12:04>> I'll I'll chill with them, you know,

1:12:07whatever. And hey, I'm a nerd. Like do

1:12:09you know how bad I want to just like

1:12:11hang out with them?

1:12:12>> Oh yeah, me too.

1:12:13>> Like not that I have like uh personal

1:12:16bias for President Trump to do this, but

1:12:18like just like any American, I like I

1:12:20want to know more.

1:12:21>> Of course,

1:12:21>> I want to meet them. I want to

1:12:22communicate. Well, I think it's just

1:12:25it's wrong for some people to have

1:12:27access to this information because this

1:12:30I think this is different than any other

1:12:31kind of secret information.

1:12:33>> I think it's weight and its significance

1:12:36and impact on the human race in general.

1:12:40I I mean I demand I I want we should

1:12:44know you shouldn't there shouldn't be a

1:12:47group of unelected bureaucrats and

1:12:50defense contractors that have access to

1:12:52this stuff and the general public

1:12:54doesn't. So they have a completely

1:12:56different map of the world than we do.

1:12:58>> I know and I just think about the

1:13:01unfortunate lies and how society has

1:13:03progressed over the last several decades

1:13:05and where we could have been if this was

1:13:06handled back in the ' 50s60s and 70s.

1:13:08Right. And once again, it shouldn't even

1:13:10be me doing this. Like, I saw a little

1:13:12bit of crazy I learned some stuff.

1:13:14I met with some of the most senior

1:13:16people in government to confirm all

1:13:17this, you know, at the highest highest

1:13:19highest level. And um it's me like I'm

1:13:24just a dude like I'm I was a, you know,

1:13:26major in the Air Force and, you know,

1:13:28mid-level senior civilian in the IC. But

1:13:32unfortunately,

1:13:33I got stuck with this and it wouldn't

1:13:35have happened unless this small crew,

1:13:38you know, honestly pushed me over the

1:13:39edge and, you know, I I was in

1:13:42unbelievable duress and I ended up

1:13:43having to go public. So

1:13:44>> So tell me more about these reptilians

1:13:46that your friend encountered. They were

1:13:48alive.

1:13:49>> Yeah.

1:13:49>> So they were alive post crash.

1:13:52>> Yes.

1:13:53>> Why do these things keep

1:13:54crashing?

1:13:55>> So some of it is um NHI versus NHI.

1:14:01wides.

1:14:02>> Yeah,

1:14:02>> they war in the skies. Isn't that in the

1:14:05>> You think it's like would they get

1:14:06along? They're so advanced. But uh the

1:14:10we have records of them around

1:14:12with each other.

1:14:12>> Is that in the Mahabarata or the

1:14:14Bavagita? There's there's like talk

1:14:16about sky wars in ancient Hindu text.

1:14:20>> Vid Oh yeah, in the Vidic text, the blue

1:14:21people. And I know that's why you asked

1:14:24blue. I don't recall them being that

1:14:26blue, but you know, right?

1:14:28>> I got a short little look unlike

1:14:29>> Yeah, when they're alive, they're

1:14:30darker.

1:14:32>> Well, that is true. There's like a

1:14:35post-mortem change in their like people.

1:14:38That's what happens with people.

1:14:39>> That that is true cuz you know, as they

1:14:42were struggling and then died, obviously

1:14:43their affect changed and So,

1:14:46>> this friend that encountered first of

1:14:49all the we'll go to the the Greek god

1:14:52people first. Yeah. What did their craft

1:14:53look like?

1:14:55>> Uh, boomerang, crescent moon, usually.

1:14:59Not all the time. It's kind of like once

1:15:00I go back, some people like to drive the

1:15:02Porsche 911. Uh, that tends to be not

1:15:06all the time, but uh that's what they

1:15:10like to roll up in.

1:15:10>> They they they talk about them as the

1:15:12tall whites.

1:15:13>> Yeah.

1:15:14>> You hear that? Were they tall? Were they

1:15:16large?

1:15:16>> They look tall to me. I didn't have

1:15:18>> hard to tell because you don't

1:15:19>> I didn't have a ground reference really.

1:15:21I would say at least

1:15:24human size. They could be

1:15:26>> very similar to human size.

1:15:27>> Yeah, they could be my big ass is 66,

1:15:29but like the

1:15:30>> they looked big um

1:15:32>> similar to humans,

1:15:33>> I think. So, and there might be taller

1:15:36once again. I'm sure there's other stuff

1:15:38I don't know about. I'm sure there's

1:15:40other variants of them too that look

1:15:42more towards like the classic um

1:15:44>> what is it in eufology? like Nordic or,

1:15:46you know, tall whites

1:15:49>> and that are probably even taller. If

1:15:51some of those uh experiences are true,

1:15:54which once again, as long as that source

1:15:57is credible, that might be a thing. So,

1:15:59I think we need to be prepared to kind

1:16:01of

1:16:02>> that being a thing. I don't know.

1:16:03>> Yeah, that makes sense.

1:16:05>> Now, the reptilian craft, what did that

1:16:07thing look like?

1:16:09>> Uh, that one is tic tac looking.

1:16:12>> Uhoh.

1:16:13>> Yeah.

1:16:14>> I was hoping they were the cool ones.

1:16:15Yeah. The reptilian ones are the ones

1:16:17that everyone's terrified of.

1:16:18>> Yeah. And and once again, like we're

1:16:20we're doing like and of course it's not

1:16:22always a tic tac. Once again, kind of

1:16:24like what I said, but like that tends to

1:16:25be them.

1:16:26>> Um from what I understand, obviously,

1:16:28hopefully I'm not wrong, but I'm, you

1:16:30know, pretty good sourcing on that.

1:16:33>> When you see like um malevolent

1:16:35behavior, right, it's like, well, that's

1:16:36a humanistic lens. You're seeing like a

1:16:39animal lash out in captiv captivity kind

1:16:41of thing. Or they're in duress. they're

1:16:44having an emotional experience, etc. And

1:16:46it's like, you know, are they actually

1:16:48scary or is it just because of the

1:16:50situations we've been in with them? And

1:16:51so what kind of bias and and all that?

1:16:53So,

1:16:53>> of course.

1:16:54>> Yeah.

1:16:54>> And so these reptilians, what did they

1:16:57look like?

1:16:57>> Now, I've never seen them in person.

1:16:59Your friend described as

1:17:01>> it's like very almost like um 7 foot

1:17:04tall plus uh sort of gorilla looking

1:17:08skin.

1:17:08>> Gorilla looking, scaly skin though,

1:17:11reptile gorillas. But there's multiple

1:17:13types. There's ones that are are more

1:17:17humanoid looking. So

1:17:19>> there's multiple types of reptilians.

1:17:20>> Yeah. And I'm not an expert on that one.

1:17:22That's once again I never saw it in

1:17:24person to get the exact uh you know.

1:17:27>> See if there's a artist rendition.

1:17:30>> Yeah. Yeah.

1:17:31>> Chris you are.

1:17:32>> Yeah. And once again it it sounds it

1:17:35sounds so skitso like even for me

1:17:37>> gorilla with scales.

1:17:38>> Ex deep state intel officer. I'm like, I

1:17:40cannot believe I'm talking about

1:17:42this on Joe Rogan.

1:17:43>> Scare scaly gorilla.

1:17:45>> I know. And I mean, it sounds skitso.

1:17:47And it's like coming from somebody like

1:17:49me, you know, who, you know, is a

1:17:51credible person and has been in

1:17:52government. It's like,

1:17:54>> I'm going to be that guy. I'm going to

1:17:55be that guy. And then like down the road

1:17:57people will review Joe Rogan and he's

1:17:59like that We thought he

1:18:00was crazy, but

1:18:02>> what do you know? You know, it's true.

1:18:03Well, of course, if there are things

1:18:05from somewhere else, you're going to

1:18:07sound crazy describing any of

1:18:08>> because it's it's so outside my

1:18:10experience because I never had some kind

1:18:12of woo thing growing up or some sort of

1:18:15interaction with the phenomenon. So, it

1:18:17it it it feels so outside my personal

1:18:20comfort level and experience because um

1:18:22I'm relying on the personal experience

1:18:24of others, you know, audio visual stuff

1:18:26and it still feels like I'm watching a

1:18:28movie. Like, it's like is that is it

1:18:30real? I mean, I know it is, but like

1:18:31it's I have a cognitive dissonance a

1:18:33little bit, you know? So,

1:18:35>> and how were you able to watch this

1:18:36video? Do they have to put you into a

1:18:38secret room?

1:18:39>> Yeah, I won't get into the exact way it

1:18:41went down, but uh uh we'll just say it

1:18:44was uh kind of sketchy, but it to keep

1:18:48everybody safe. So,

1:18:49>> and so there apparently is NHI versus

1:18:53NHI warfare.

1:18:55>> We've we've documented that.

1:18:57>> Documented it

1:18:57>> in collection.

1:18:59what we perceive as warfare. So, unless

1:19:02it's something conflict,

1:19:03>> yeah, it looks like conflict. It smells

1:19:05like conflict. Is it some other kind of

1:19:06weird I don't know. And there's

1:19:08maybe an assessment on that. But,

1:19:10>> and um when this reptilian craft

1:19:14crashed, the assumption was that it was

1:19:16some sort of conflict because I would

1:19:17imagine,

1:19:18>> correct,

1:19:18>> that they're the ones you'd have to

1:19:19worry about

1:19:20>> cuz there was dead uh dead grays there,

1:19:23too.

1:19:24>> Oh, yeah. So,

1:19:25>> so the grays and the reptilians were

1:19:26duking it out.

1:19:27>> Yeah. I guess I guess you know you know

1:19:31I know the people who were there and

1:19:32>> this sounds insane Dave. It

1:19:34sounds crazy. And and once

1:19:36again, I don't want to get in too many

1:19:38specifics cuz this is a very unique

1:19:41>> There's a couple unique retrievals out

1:19:42there that to protect the innocents and

1:19:45people that have risked their

1:19:46lives cuz a lot of the people that

1:19:49>> uh came to me with that kind of

1:19:50information. I mean, they were

1:19:51physically threatened like me and and

1:19:53all that and and so like me going public

1:19:56was taking it for the team because I was

1:19:57able to create this umbrella of uh

1:19:59tacet, you know, protection in case

1:20:01somebody got with. And

1:20:02unfortunately, you know, my my friend

1:20:04Matt, who knows what happened to him,

1:20:06but um you know, tragically he died, you

1:20:09know, mysteriously. So

1:20:10>> now these reptilians, what was their

1:20:13craft like?

1:20:15>> Oh, like I said, the tic tac tic tac

1:20:16stuff.

1:20:17>> And was their craft crashed into the

1:20:19ground, like broken up?

1:20:21>> Yeah.

1:20:21>> Okay.

1:20:22>> It was like wedged into

1:20:23>> like had it been hit with something?

1:20:25>> Um I don't remember exactly what

1:20:28happened in that regard, but it did

1:20:30crash. So, and I don't want to misspeak

1:20:32on what exactly happened. So,

1:20:35>> and how many times has this happened if

1:20:38you had a guess?

1:20:38>> I don't know the total number of like uh

1:20:41adversarial conflict crashes, but I mean

1:20:44it seems to be at least a dozen or two.

1:20:47I don't know.

1:20:48>> So, at least a dozen or two adversarial

1:20:51crashes. And then there's the high

1:20:54alitude nuclear tests,

1:20:56>> right? You're aware of those, right?

1:20:58>> Mhm.

1:20:59>> Okay. So, there's been a lot of

1:21:01speculation that during those high

1:21:03alitude nuclear tests that crafts that

1:21:07didn't know it was coming got rocked.

1:21:10Do you know anything about that?

1:21:12>> That's an area that I'll let the

1:21:14government handle. That's because it

1:21:15gets into vulnerabilities and and and

1:21:18what the US has figured out. So, that

1:21:20just gets a sensitive area, but that's

1:21:23something I'm sure that'll come out in

1:21:24this process because

1:21:25>> So, you can't talk about that. Is that

1:21:27what you're saying? because it gets into

1:21:29um US capabilities and what we figured

1:21:31out in terms of uh

1:21:32>> Well, this is all like from the 50s,

1:21:34right?

1:21:34>> Yeah. But we still got nukes and we

1:21:36still got those kind of weapons, you

1:21:38know,

1:21:39>> away. So,

1:21:39>> you're aware of those um

1:21:42it was uh what what was it, Jamie? Was

1:21:45it um a telescope that they were t they

1:21:48they were taking photographs of the

1:21:50stars and they were doing it with uh do

1:21:54you know what I'm talking about? all the

1:21:55little dots popped up thing that Yeah,

1:21:57that's like two or three weeks ago,

1:21:58>> right? We talked about that a couple

1:21:59weeks ago. It was an observatory and the

1:22:02observatory has these old plates of

1:22:05images that they took of the sky.

1:22:07>> Oh, is this Beatatric's work, the Vasco?

1:22:11>> Yes.

1:22:11>> Um yeah, I read it. Very interesting.

1:22:13And um

1:22:14>> it's hard to make an exact conclusion if

1:22:17if it's UAP, but it's really great

1:22:20original scholarship and I applaud her

1:22:22for for doing that. But there appeared

1:22:24to be moving uh reflective things that

1:22:29were outside of our atmosphere that they

1:22:31were taking images of. They were not

1:22:33static. They were not

1:22:33>> starutnik too. That was the important

1:22:35thing.

1:22:36>> Pribut very important because there was

1:22:37no satellites at the time. This was

1:22:40images that they took of the sky that

1:22:41showed things that were reflective that

1:22:44seemed to be metallic allegedly. And if

1:22:46I remember her paper correctly with her

1:22:48co-authors, it also there were cluster

1:22:51concentrations over sensitive nuclear

1:22:53facilities and nuclear testing um uh uh

1:22:58chronological temporal correlation as

1:23:00well.

1:23:01>> So data shows unidentified lights in

1:23:03archival astronomy images were 68% more

1:23:06likely to be imaged 24 hours after a

1:23:09nuclear weapons test.

1:23:10>> Like I was saying, yeah,

1:23:11>> right. So this is chronologically like

1:23:14we have these nuclear weapons tests

1:23:16including these high altitude

1:23:17detonations like oper operation starfish

1:23:19prime.

1:23:20>> Yeah.

1:23:20>> We detonate these things and then all of

1:23:23a sudden these craft start showing up

1:23:25like hey what are these crazy

1:23:28monkeys up to?

1:23:29>> It does seem like there was a heightened

1:23:30amount of activity once we started

1:23:32testing nuclear weapons. Oh yeah.

1:23:34>> Obviously this phenomenon is old. It's

1:23:35interacted with man and antiquity. You

1:23:37know Jacques Valet's scholarship on that

1:23:39passport meonia that. Yeah,

1:23:41>> that's why the names of our rooms at the

1:23:44comedy club are Fat Man and Little Boy.

1:23:45>> Oh, nice. Yeah, because that's what

1:23:47ushered because it's the comedy mother

1:23:49ship. It's a UFOs based. The

1:23:50>> Yeah, if you go to the Air Force Museum,

1:23:52um they have the the Anola Gay there, I

1:23:54think. Is that right?

1:23:56>> It's one of the planes.

1:23:57>> Oh, wow.

1:23:58>> My alma mater is going to crucify me for

1:23:59getting that Air Force history wrong at

1:24:01the Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio.

1:24:03But

1:24:03>> Wow.

1:24:03>> It's pretty cool. They have a mockup of

1:24:05the the little boy and fat man bombs, so

1:24:08you can see how big they were. You're

1:24:09like, "Holy that was big."

1:24:10>> One of the things that Lazar said is

1:24:13that one of the objects they were

1:24:15working with was very old. And he said

1:24:17that they had somehow that it it was

1:24:20told to him that it was retrieved from

1:24:22an archaeological dig.

1:24:24>> I don't know about his specific story

1:24:26and his exposure, but uh the

1:24:29archaeological thing that that is a

1:24:30thing. Yeah.

1:24:31>> Are you aware of the labyrinth at Hawara

1:24:34in Egypt?

1:24:37>> No. What is that? Okay. So,

1:24:39>> is that the one where there's a metallic

1:24:40object that they they but but the what's

1:24:43his face won't let people go in it from

1:24:44the Egyptian?

1:24:45>> Well, it's it's complicated. It's a

1:24:47little more complicated than won't let

1:24:48them, but there's definitely resistance

1:24:50to it.

1:24:51>> So, these labyrinths, this this

1:24:53incredible compound that's underground

1:24:56was documented by Heroditus and he said

1:24:58it was greater than Giza. He said it was

1:25:01much more spectacular construction. Wow.

1:25:03So now they know from ground penetrating

1:25:05radar that these these cavities in the

1:25:08ground, these symmetrical rooms exist.

1:25:11They know where they are and they know

1:25:13why they're flooded. So they're flooded

1:25:15because during the 1960s they built a

1:25:18dam to divert water for agriculture. And

1:25:21when they did, they changed the water

1:25:22table and it flooded this labyrinth

1:25:24area. And when they used this ground pen

1:25:27penetrating radar and um I think it's

1:25:30radio tomography and a bunch of other

1:25:32different ways of

1:25:33>> one of the things they found was a 40 m

1:25:36long metallic object that's in some sort

1:25:40of is it

1:25:42>> is it in an atrium like it's in some

1:25:45sort of a large room.

1:25:47>> I've heard of I've seen a video about

1:25:49this. You're you're recalling some stuff

1:25:51I've seen just casually online. Like

1:25:53just imagine if that's what that is.

1:25:56>> It's like it's like the movie Stargate

1:25:58with with Kurt Russell.

1:26:00>> If these people had been worshiping this

1:26:02craft and so much so that they built

1:26:05this incredible temple and put it in the

1:26:07center of their temple. It's a 40 m long

1:26:10metallic object and the metal apparently

1:26:14is of unknown origin. Like they don't

1:26:16know what the metal is. It's not

1:26:18registering as copper. It's not

1:26:20registering as steel or or or iron

1:26:22rather. They don't know what it is.

1:26:24>> Interesting. Interesting.

1:26:26>> Yeah. It's weird.

1:26:28>> Yeah. I mean, I'm I won't be surprised

1:26:30if some ancient civilizations were

1:26:32essentially cargo cults, you know, for

1:26:34these visitors. I mean, that is most

1:26:37likely true in many cases, not all. And

1:26:40of course, that gets into theological

1:26:42areas that are touchy, but I I do think

1:26:45that that's probably the case.

1:26:46>> The central object is hard to classify.

1:26:48It appears metallic, not stone or wood.

1:26:50I named it Dippy after the giant dip

1:26:52diplotica skeleton in the hint hinty

1:26:56hall of London's natural history museum.

1:26:58It could be anything. Its shape

1:27:00resembles those tic-tac hard mints. It

1:27:03might also be an upright disc or even a

1:27:05colossal shen ring. The ancient Egyptian

1:27:08symbol representing the eternal cycle of

1:27:10creation. The big job object alone big

1:27:14object alone rather raises profound

1:27:16questions. How did it get there? Why is

1:27:18it there?

1:27:21So, show him some of the uh artistic

1:27:24recreations of what it looked like

1:27:27underneath the ground. So, this is all,

1:27:30you know, like I said, Herodotus wrote

1:27:32about this thousands of years ago, but

1:27:33now it's documented that these chambers

1:27:36and these pathways actually exist.

1:27:38>> And there had been people that had

1:27:40studied at least the upper surface

1:27:41levels of it as recently as like the

1:27:431800s.

1:27:44>> Interesting.

1:27:45>> Yeah.

1:27:46But that, you know, through all like a

1:27:49lot of Egypt, there's a water under

1:27:52Giza, there's water under the pyramids,

1:27:54there's water under,

1:27:55>> you know, a lot of that stuff is

1:27:56flooded. And so this is what it looked

1:27:59like. This is all underground.

1:28:03It's crazy because if this along

1:28:07with uh Filippo Beyond's work where it

1:28:09shows using that same uh satellite radio

1:28:13tomography that there's some sort of

1:28:16structure underneath the pyramids that

1:28:18goes over a kilometer into the ground.

1:28:21>> Is there easy access or is it just like

1:28:23a government denial? the antiquities

1:28:25bureau whatever they call it in blocking

1:28:27it or

1:28:27>> I think there's been some progress in

1:28:30terms of allowing exploration and I

1:28:34don't know the extent of it but I know

1:28:36that a lot of people are very hopeful

1:28:38that that progress is is going to be

1:28:40achieved like they're opening up this

1:28:42research and look this would be a giant

1:28:45boom to their tourism industry oh yeah I

1:28:47mean that's what they want I mean Egypt

1:28:50probably survives I don't know what

1:28:52percentage of their economy in Giza is

1:28:53tourism But it has to be massive.

1:28:55>> Yeah. And you always hear interesting

1:28:56stories. You know, I have an eclectic

1:28:59uh group of colleagues and you hear

1:29:01interesting stories. Is it the Queen's

1:29:03Chamber? The the granite

1:29:05>> pill box and people have had interesting

1:29:07experiences in there too. And and uh

1:29:10>> well the king's chamber that

1:29:11sarcophagus.

1:29:12>> Yeah. It's that like granite box, you

1:29:14know, talking perfectly cut granite box

1:29:17that also I think it mirrors the exact

1:29:19dimensions of the Ark of the Covenant.

1:29:22Interesting. That's That's crazy. But I

1:29:26know people who've laid in it because

1:29:28they have to kind of pay the guard. It's

1:29:29like off hours and they just have like a

1:29:32weird transcendental experience. I mean,

1:29:34it's kind of woo.

1:29:35>> Once again, I've never experienced

1:29:36something like that.

1:29:37>> Let me lie down there.

1:29:38>> That's a thing. That's a thing. I I'll

1:29:40let you know who to talk to offline. Uh

1:29:42>> how much do you think it cost to lay in

1:29:44the box?

1:29:45>> Maybe. I don't know. Couple bucks.

1:29:46>> Egypt. 20 grand maybe. I don't

1:29:48>> 20 grand. Whoa. Yeah. 20 grand. You

1:29:50could like sleep there. Yeah.

1:29:53>> Yeah. It's um it's very strange because

1:29:55the structures themselves are incredibly

1:29:57strange. You know, the structures

1:29:58themselves are so immense and so complex

1:30:00and there the methods of construction

1:30:02are completely unknown and just the

1:30:04symmetry and the the the the precision

1:30:08of the engineering is beyond

1:30:10comprehension for people that lived at

1:30:13the very mo the very the most recent it

1:30:16could be is 4,500 years ago. And a lot

1:30:19of these people think it's far older

1:30:20than that. And and we're finding that

1:30:22I've been watching some of Graham

1:30:24Hancock's stuff. You just look at these

1:30:25like

1:30:26>> megalithic architecture that's older

1:30:27than you think. The stuff in Turkey and

1:30:30in the United States as well in Ohio and

1:30:32and um

1:30:34>> Mississippi.

1:30:34>> Yeah.

1:30:35>> And it's like and they're finding all

1:30:36these pyramid structures using synthetic

1:30:38aperture radar. And I so I am casually

1:30:40following it and it it does seem like we

1:30:42don't really even know our own history.

1:30:44And I think with all this coming out,

1:30:46there's going to be a huge rew re uh

1:30:49writing of a lot of our ancient and

1:30:51modern history. So,

1:30:52>> well, that's where it gets really weird.

1:30:53Um, you know, uh, Rep. Paulina Luna was

1:30:57on the podcast and

1:30:58>> Oh, yeah.

1:30:58>> She was talking to me about the book of

1:31:00Enoch.

1:31:02>> I hadn't read it. She's like, "You have

1:31:03to read it." And I've read it twice now.

1:31:05And I'm like, "What in the are they

1:31:07talking about?"

1:31:08>> Like the book of Enoch, which was also

1:31:10found with the Dead Sea Scrolls in

1:31:12>> Kuman. And it it refers to the watchers

1:31:15who came down and and mated with

1:31:17daughters and created this race of

1:31:19giants. And it's like what? Yeah. And

1:31:22you think is like now when you when all

1:31:24this comes out was that actually literal

1:31:25and you and of course the Bible council

1:31:28na was more of a political document

1:31:30before secular government and you know

1:31:32they got together like what are all the

1:31:33different books that we can agree upon

1:31:34that are good that are

1:31:36>> yeah what gets into the canon. And

1:31:37that's the thing about the book of Enoch

1:31:39is that it was it was not put in there

1:31:41because it didn't jive with the Torah.

1:31:43>> Correct. Yeah.

1:31:44>> Yes. Which is like, okay, you

1:31:47Imagine if that was in the Bible. Like

1:31:49if you go to church and you read about

1:31:50the Watchers.

1:31:52>> Well, there's actually a lot of

1:31:53interesting stuff in the Bible. Like

1:31:55obviously, and that's another thing like

1:31:56of course with um you know, I'm Catholic

1:31:58uh by growing up CCD confirmation did

1:32:01the whole thing as a kid. And you see a

1:32:03lot of uh outspoken exorcists and other

1:32:06people right now saying, "Well, all this

1:32:08uh alien stuff is just diabolic

1:32:11deception and demons and you know, all

1:32:13that kind of stuff." And and I and I

1:32:15respect that opinion and I do think like

1:32:17what you perceive as a demon is a

1:32:19certain class of non-human or anomalous

1:32:22intelligence. And and that is certainly

1:32:24a thing, but the the whole ecosystem is

1:32:26not demonic. And but the Bible's

1:32:30interesting because once again it

1:32:32doesn't discuss about other life

1:32:34elsewhere like it doesn't talk about uh

1:32:37bacteria and viruses that those were

1:32:39unseen. We cohabitated with bacteria and

1:32:42viruses until the invention of the