From Anxious to Secure, How I Attached My Avoidant

0:00You know, it's very interesting you

0:01should say all of that because from my

0:05experience as the avoidance, what you're

0:07describing, this journey of taking more

0:10responsibility, taking more charge is

0:13one of the biggest complaints I had,

0:15which I believe was sabotaging things.

0:18>> Mhm.

0:18>> That you didn't initially.

0:20>> That you wanted me to make all the

0:22decisions for everything, whereas I

0:25didn't want to. It was like this

0:28pressure to

0:30>> well steering.

0:31>> It was two-sided because if I did try to

0:34take charge and make decisions, you

0:37wouldn't cooperate.

0:38>> No, no, but I mean like what movie are

0:41we watching?

0:43>> You know, like really simple decisions

0:46where you where you were just

0:47>> I picked the movie you never liked.

0:51>> So

0:51>> it's also true. Yeah.

0:54So I think me taking a step back

0:57>> it it was it's a dynamic.

1:00>> Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

1:01>> And and then it's getting out of it is

1:04also it needs to be double-sided effort.

1:07Both sides need to be willing to

1:09cooperate.

1:09>> Yeah.

1:10>> Yeah.

1:10>> You have to stop playing the assignment

1:13because you wanted all control.

1:14>> Yeah. Yeah. That's also true. Yeah.

1:16Yeah. It's very tricky. and and like

1:19this. What I did right now is

1:25>> Hey guys, welcome to another episode of

1:27the Attachment Diaries. My name is

1:28Gabriel. I'm a former avoidant

1:31>> and I'm Karolina and I used to be

1:33anxiously attached.

1:35>> And today's topic is going to be

1:38essentially the opposite of what we

1:40talked about last time where we

1:43discussed my journey from avoidant to

1:46secure. So, in order to keep things

1:49fair, we're going to talk about your

1:51journey from anxious to secure

1:54>> and how I stop sabotaging our

1:57relationship.

1:58>> Exactly. Thank you. All right. So, um

2:03I'm a bit excited about this because

2:05you've been putting me on the hot seat

2:07quite a bit with my avoidant attachment

2:09style. So, now I get to ask you all the

2:12burning questions and point out all your

2:15mistakes and shortcomings. I'm happy for

2:17you.

2:19>> So, I thought maybe what could help

2:21initially is to talk a little bit about

2:24what your experience was as an anxious

2:27person in relationships. Can you tell me

2:29a little about that?

2:32my experience as an anxious person in a

2:36relationship in our relationship in

2:38particular because that's the only

2:40relationship I had where I was actually

2:43anxious

2:45was that of constant worry in a way. I

2:51was always paranoid that you're not

2:55going to text me ever again or that

2:58that's like the last time we saw each

3:00other. It's just constant fear of being

3:04abandoned

3:06but also a lot of ups and downs

3:12because I have this fear and then

3:16whenever you did text me or whenever you

3:18did initiate or whenever we saw each

3:20other be like yay he cares. So it was

3:24this experience of like constant doubt,

3:27constant questioning

3:30but also a lot of thrill and

3:35positive

3:37um

3:39surprises.

3:40>> Mhm.

3:42roller coaster, I guess, but also a lot

3:44of negative surprises when you did start

3:47pulling away and became more and more

3:49unavailable and went from dating to, oh,

3:53I'm undecided. I don't know what I want

3:56and then breakups. So, yeah. So it

3:59sounds very much like uh being along for

4:03the roller coaster ride experience

4:07>> or creating a roller coaster. In a way I

4:11think a part of it was that I had all my

4:13fears

4:15>> and I think in some ways I was making

4:16them come true.

4:18>> You were making your fears come true.

4:20>> Mhm. I think so.

4:21>> Oh, I want to hear all about this.

4:25>> Tell me more. What fe what fears did you

4:27have

4:27>> of being abandoned?

4:29>> Being abandoned.

4:30>> Yes.

4:30>> And do you feel like to some extent you

4:33contributed to that becoming a reality?

4:36>> I think so. I think it's a bit like this

4:42phenomenon

4:43where you when you're very afraid of

4:46something, you end up making it happen.

4:49>> Mhm.

4:51Even with uh drivers, right, when they

4:55see something on the road, they end up

4:57driving in that direction, even if it is

5:00a pole or a truck or something.

5:03>> Um I feel like the same way my fear of

5:07being abandoned and my obsession,

5:11my insecurity

5:12contributed to this dynamic that then

5:15allowed you to take me for granted and

5:18abandon me. So it was a self-fulfilling

5:21prophecy of sorts,

5:22>> I think. So yes.

5:24>> Okay. So what was the narrative for you

5:27then?

5:29>> The narrative

5:30>> in your own mind that led to whatever

5:34contribution you had to the abandonment.

5:37I think it was this fear

5:43that that somehow my fate

5:46that there's something wrong with me or

5:50that I can never have what other people

5:52seem to have this stability

5:57I I don't know some weird you know

6:00>> you previously mentioned this

6:02reoccurring fear that I remember you

6:05used to have with being the cliche old

6:09lady with cats, right?

6:11>> Just that I can't have cats. Yes.

6:13>> Yeah. Because of your allergies.

6:14>> So I can't even have cats.

6:16>> Yeah.

6:17>> But

6:18>> yeah,

6:18>> but this was like a genuine fear of

6:21yours, right? Forever alone.

6:23>> Yes. Yes.

6:24>> So that nar how how did you

6:30translate that belief or that narrative

6:34in our relationship? How did it how do

6:36you think your behaviors reflected that?

6:39>> I think it made me unsure of myself. I

6:44think it made me doubt my own value and

6:47I and what I bring into the

6:49relationship.

6:52it contributed to me feeling replaceable

6:55or like it's somehow my fate to end up

6:59alone, which is ridiculous because now

7:01we've been married 13 years, so I'm the

7:05opposite. But it didn't directly cause a

7:09a lot of stuff. It was more of an

7:12indirect

7:13side effect.

7:15>> Mhm. And it created the dynamic between

7:18us where I was always unsure and also

7:22always wanting more.

7:25And you were the one who had to then put

7:27the brakes on and be like, well, let's

7:30pace ourselves. Let's not jump into

7:33things,

7:35which then reinforced all my beliefs and

7:38all my fears and only made me feel more

7:41insecure. So, it was like a spiral of

7:44sorts. Mhm.

7:45>> And when I was spiraling, I

7:49automatically would then become less

7:51attractive or less interesting or allow

7:54you to take me for granted or

7:56>> Yeah.

7:56>> Yeah. I can definitely confirm that that

8:00comes across or came across. M

8:02>> I think a simplified version of how

8:05people understand this is they talk

8:07about being high value or knowing your

8:09own value

8:10>> and that when you do people or men women

8:14will respect you more and take you more

8:16seriously and I think it's maybe a bit

8:20simplified but there is a lot of truth

8:22in that too that when you know your own

8:24worth you're communicating it externally

8:28and if you believe for whatever reason

8:30that you deserve deserve to be abandoned

8:32or will be abandoned, right? Then

8:34>> there's something wrong with me.

8:36>> Yeah.

8:37>> You're communicating that too and

8:39>> I have my own pattern that feeds into

8:42that and then yes, it becomes a cycle of

8:45push pull of abandoning

8:47>> and also reinforcement of the messages.

8:51Yes. Exactly.

8:52>> So it sounds like quite a rough ride.

8:55>> Mhm.

8:56Definitely. What changed for you over

8:59time? Or how did you feel like you

9:02journeyied from being in this state

9:05predominantly

9:07to gradually easing out of it? Cuz I

9:10know from my perspective how much you've

9:13changed, which is dramatic.

9:16Um, but this transformation, let's let's

9:18flesh it out a little bit. Where do you

9:21feel like it started?

9:23>> It's a good question, I guess.

9:27And it's hard to pinpoint a exact moment

9:32of when it started, but I do find that

9:36in the course of our relationship,

9:39it did undermine my

9:43sense of confidence

9:45and I was spiraling towards more and

9:48more anxious states and

9:51less and less confidence and

9:56more and more anxiety basically.

10:00>> And I think it was me noticing that

10:04that's what's happening a bit. Me

10:07realizing, okay, I was more confident

10:12before I met you than I am now. And

10:16being a bit like, what what the hell? So

10:22noticing it I think was the first

10:27step in in snapping out of it. M

10:30>> I think a part of it was also that in

10:34our relationship I let you take the

10:36reigns a lot which I think often is what

10:40avoidance need and I saw that that's

10:43what's creating this dynamic

10:47that when I'm making or when I'm letting

10:49you lead the way

10:51>> and we're just doing everything on your

10:54terms

10:55and staying in your narrative and and in

10:58your frame of mind, it's only making me

11:02spiral and feel worse and worse and

11:04worse about myself and you become more

11:08and more undecided

11:10and more and more distant. So in essence

11:13noticing okay this is not healthy this

11:16is not good for me this is not making me

11:19happy because in the beginning our

11:22relationship did make me happier

11:25but then as the months went by it did

11:29not anymore it made me less happy it

11:32made me more anxious and then I realized

11:35okay I I need to take the reinss I can't

11:38let you drive I I need to drive myself.

11:42I need to take charge of my own life and

11:45not just hope that you're going to give

11:48me what I'm wanting.

11:52Instead, to try to give myself what I'm

11:54wanting more and become a bit more

11:56independent

11:58and and I think it did happen after

12:00every breakup to be honest. When we were

12:03together, I was more in this follower

12:06role. And whenever you did break up, it

12:08was I was initially always desperate and

12:11sad and wanted you back.

12:13>> Yeah.

12:14>> But every time I was also offended, you

12:16know.

12:16>> You were?

12:17>> Yeah.

12:18>> I remember. And and it forced me to snap

12:20out of

12:22this chase and wanting more and more

12:25closeness was you you'd put a stop to

12:29it.

12:30>> You were like the drug that I always

12:31wanted more of. And then you'd remove

12:33yourself from the equation and I'd be

12:35like, "Okay, I I need to fill my time

12:38with something else. I need to fill my

12:40attention with something else." And

12:42decide what I want in life and make

12:45plans where you're not included

12:48and and look out for myself and

12:52so yeah, it's not an exact point.

12:56It's more like lots of little breaking

12:59points

13:00>> that added up.

13:01>> That added up. You know, it's very

13:03interesting you should say all of that

13:05because

13:07>> from my experience as the avoidant,

13:10>> what you're describing this journey of

13:13taking more responsibility, taking more

13:15charge,

13:17is one of the biggest complaints I had,

13:20which I believe was sabotaging things.

13:23>> Mhm. that you didn't initially

13:25>> that you wanted me to make all the

13:27decisions for everything whereas I

13:30didn't want to

13:32>> it was like this pressure to

13:35>> well steering

13:36>> it was two-sided because if I did try to

13:39make more if I did try to take charge

13:42and make decisions

13:45>> you wouldn't cooperate. No, no, but I

13:48mean like what movie are we watching?

13:51You know, like really simple decisions

13:54where you were where you were

13:56>> I picked a movie you never liked.

13:59>> So

14:00>> it's also true. Yeah. Yeah.

14:02>> So I think me taking a step back.

14:06>> It it was it's a dynamic.

14:08>> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And and then it's

14:12getting out of it is also it needs to be

14:15double-sided effort. Both sides need to

14:17be willing to cooperate.

14:19>> Yeah.

14:19>> Yeah.

14:20>> You have to stop playing the assignment

14:22>> because you wanted all control.

14:24>> Yeah. Yeah. That's also true.

14:25>> Yeah.

14:26>> Yeah. It's very tricky.

14:27>> And and like this what I did right now

14:30is part of that journey.

14:31>> Yeah. Yeah.

14:32>> To not just let you control the

14:34narrative

14:34>> whereas previously you may not have said

14:36anything. Yes. or believed

14:38>> because I wanted didn't want you to get

14:40upset

14:40>> or and it would have ended at whatever I

14:44just said.

14:44>> Yeah. And not just be silent

14:45>> and you'd be like, "Yeah, I guess he's

14:47right." Or something to that

14:48>> Yeah.

14:49>> Yeah. So, stepping up, taking charge,

14:52taking responsibility,

14:54>> stepping out and looking at the

14:56situation with my own eyes

14:58>> from my perspective, not taking you into

15:01perspective.

15:03and also letting go of the fantasy of

15:08who I wanted you to be and what I wanted

15:11us to become. And

15:13>> I think that's actually a very important

15:15point, the fantasy. Can you elaborate a

15:17little on that because I know a lot of

15:19our coaching clients can be stuck in

15:21that where they're just looking at their

15:24avoidant partner in particular through

15:26this lens of what's what they can be or

15:30what the relationship could be.

15:32What what's the what are the pitfalls in

15:35that for an anxious person?

15:37>> I think this isn't just anxious people.

15:40I think avoidance are very much the

15:43same. I think it's

15:44>> a human problem that when you fall in

15:48love with someone, you make this perfect

15:51picture of this person. And we do it a

15:56bit differently. I think anxious people

15:58have

16:00more of

16:02tendency to look past avoidance

16:04shortcomings

16:06versus avoidance have more of a tendency

16:09to be scrutinizing and and think, "Oh,

16:13maybe the grass is greener. Maybe this

16:15perfect person exists somewhere else for

16:18me."

16:19But in essence, it's the same need. I

16:24think it's a need to be with someone who

16:27will fulfill all your needs without you

16:30having to ask for it.

16:31>> That's the fantasy.

16:32>> That's the fantasy. And the pitfall it

16:34creates

16:36is for anxious people that we chase the

16:41avoidant. We believe the avoidant can be

16:44that for us

16:46and then we chase them to give us things

16:50that often they straight up say they

16:53cannot give us. But we're so

16:58sold on to the narrative, sold on to the

17:01fantasy that we keep on pushing

17:05for for that idea

17:08>> rather than face the reality of what

17:11this person is actually willing to give

17:13or not give. And I think this fantasy

17:18of what an avoidant could provide often

17:21comes from the early relationship stages

17:25where both people put on a bit of a show

17:27for the other person.

17:29>> Right.

17:30>> Right.

17:31>> They make all this incredible effort.

17:33There's love bombing

17:34>> and and they're cool and understanding

17:36and meeting your needs.

17:37>> Everything's working.

17:39>> Yeah.

17:39>> Yeah. And we're on the same page.

17:42So, so this is where

17:44right you're you're you're sold.

17:47>> Yeah.

17:47>> On what you can have and then as an

17:50anxious person you keep on trying to

17:52find back to that initial feeling.

17:54You're chasing after that initial

17:56feeling that's no longer there.

17:58>> And then feeling like oh the fact that

18:01the feeling is no longer there must be

18:03my fault and what did I do wrong and

18:07is there not enough? Like is there

18:08something wrong with me? Am I not

18:10enough? and

18:11>> trying harder and harder and harder.

18:13>> Yeah. So, yeah, I think the first step

18:17for me was to stop idealizing you

18:22and get upset with you and

18:26see okay

18:29flaws. letting go of the this fantasy

18:32then

18:33>> helped you deal with the reality of who

18:36I was what I could and could not provide

18:38>> and helped me not take it also

18:40personally because suddenly it wasn't my

18:42shortcoming that you're not giving me

18:44these things

18:45>> it was my shortcoming

18:46>> exactly it was it wasn't my shortcoming

18:50that you're not giving me yeah

18:52>> these things and fulfilling my fantasy

18:54but suddenly it was like okay he's got

18:58problems Yeah.

18:59>> And he's unsure about decisions or

19:03procrastinating and playing all these

19:05stupid games and

19:08>> being a jerk and, you know,

19:12>> you're supposed to be in the hot seat

19:13today,

19:14>> leaving me on red and and you know, not

19:17replying and and what's more, I can do

19:20the same thing.

19:22>> Yeah.

19:23>> Yeah. So, it was an empowering

19:25experience of going from kind of being

19:30on the rails where you're letting me

19:33drive

19:35>> and you're in this fantasy of who I am

19:38to hold on. I need to be more in control

19:42and the fantasy is a fantasy.

19:44>> Yeah.

19:45>> And not to say

19:47there isn't reality in that fantasy, you

19:50know. I think

19:50>> here we are today.

19:52>> Yeah. It can be built.

19:54>> Yeah.

19:55>> But in in the initial burst, I think it

19:58often is just putting on the best

20:00possible effort you can, which most

20:03people can sustain for a month or two or

20:05>> you were crazy.

20:11>> The elaborate dates. I don't know where

20:13you got all the date ideas. Was it of

20:14Pinterest or something?

20:16>> I think I did my research, but I also,

20:19you know, I was creative.

20:20>> Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to make an effort.

20:23>> Yeah.

20:24>> And it's not something anyone can

20:27sustain. And it's also not healthy to

20:30try to impress someone else the whole

20:32time.

20:34So yeah, I think

20:37stepping out of the train of idealizing

20:41you and chasing after some idea of who

20:46you made me believe you were, but also

20:48who I made you to be.

20:51>> Yeah.

20:52>> Yeah. That was step one.

20:55But that was the beginning.

20:58>> Mhm.

20:59>> Of me stopping to sabotage our

21:01relationship.

21:03There is more.

21:04>> I know

21:07>> that that was just like the initial

21:09realization.

21:11>> But further actions were actually what

21:15changed things for us in our dynamic.

21:18>> Mhm.

21:19>> Actions that were possible suddenly

21:21because I was no longer putting up on a

21:24pedestal the whole time or making you

21:26this unattainable goal that I can never

21:29achieve.

21:30>> Right? And I find that we see a lot of

21:33people in that trap where they just

21:36continuously cycle in this stage, right?

21:40Where it's like

21:42>> they have an idealized idea,

21:44>> the person, often the avoidant, fails to

21:48meet that ideal.

21:50um they're disappointed, they're

21:52devastated, there's like a break or

21:54something, maybe they get back together

21:56often and then it starts over

22:00instead of looking instead of facing the

22:04music and saying, "Okay, I guess they're

22:07human, right? And they're not this

22:09perfect fantasy I have."

22:12>> They are not perfectly caring. They are

22:15selfish sometimes.

22:17They don't have anything figured out in

22:20life.

22:20>> Yeah. Yeah.

22:22>> They don't know what they're doing.

22:24>> Yeah.

22:25>> They have mental health problems,

22:27>> right?

22:28>> So, you mentioned this was the

22:30beginning, so a foundation of sorts.

22:32>> Yes.

22:33>> Where did it go from there?

22:35>> So, we were in this cycle of breakup,

22:38makeup, breakup, makeup.

22:41And I would say it already started with

22:45the first breakup.

22:48which technically was I broke up with

22:53you because you didn't know what you

22:55wanted.

22:56>> Well, that's how I framed it.

22:58>> And I realized that you gaslet me into

23:00doing it.

23:02>> And and I was like,

23:05what the hell is wrong with you?

23:08And I can make my own decisions for

23:10myself. Thank you very much.

23:13>> And so yeah. Mhm.

23:17>> So that was I think the first time

23:20when my blinders were off and I was

23:24like, "What the hell?" Right.

23:27>> And and then you sent me the group

23:29invite for the

23:31>> Halloween party.

23:31>> Halloween party. Yes. Yeah.

23:34>> And then again, I was openly offended. I

23:36was like, "How dare you send me a group

23:38invite?

23:41>> Uh I'm not coming. I deserve a more

23:44special treatment

23:45>> than a mass email

23:48to which made you give me the more

23:51special treatment and like of course

23:55>> um

23:55>> you came.

23:56>> So that's where I learned

23:59that being confrontational and being

24:02difficult

24:04>> I guess

24:05>> actually gets me more of what I want.

24:09And I kept on making this experience

24:12that if I'm just being stubborn

24:16and being like no that you're going to

24:19make it work, you know, and and that

24:23helped me undermine this belief of mine

24:26that there's something wrong with me and

24:27I deserve to be abandoned because

24:29suddenly I'm not doing anything. I'm

24:33literally throwing a tantrum. M

24:35>> and yet you make an effort to make

24:38peace. So that was like a new trick I

24:42learned that I can pull

24:45>> that pulls you back in.

24:47>> And I also realized, okay, I can get him

24:52to come back. I can pull him back in.

24:56So, I think part of what made me

24:58sabotage our relationship was this like

25:01sitting back attitude

25:03of

25:04>> letting it happen,

25:05>> letting everything happen and letting

25:06you control everything.

25:08>> And with these little things, this is

25:11how I learned to take the reigns and

25:14take control. So, the sabotage on my

25:17part was doing nothing

25:20or just being helpless. And instead, I

25:23learned to influence you. I was like,

25:26"Okay, how do I get him to behave the

25:29way I would want him to behave?"

25:33>> And that's a very different way of

25:35thinking about a relationship or

25:38friendship even. But I think this

25:42pursuing what you want is how you make

25:44anything happen in life.

25:46Yeah, it's funny you should say all of

25:48that because I think as an avoidant or

25:52me at the time, it was incredibly

25:55frustrating that you were not taking

25:58charge. I understand it's the dynamic

26:00and all that, but you stepping up and

26:03being more confrontational. I'm not

26:05saying going to the other extreme,

26:07right? But where it feels necessary and

26:11fair,

26:12>> calling you out.

26:13>> Yeah. was actually very reassuring was

26:17actually respect inducing and something

26:20inducing and trust inducing and

26:21something I craved because when you are

26:24in this state of I don't know and just

26:27waiting for me to take the lead and all

26:29that stuff I feel like all the

26:32responsibilities on me and I have to

26:36figure it all out and I don't actually

26:37know where you're at and that's

26:41unsettling and not trust inducing.

26:43And I find avoidance can eventually have

26:47enough of that and that can contribute

26:50to a lot of distance se separation, you

26:53know, breakups because they want someone

26:57that I don't know fights back a little.

27:00Somebody that

27:01>> can handle them.

27:03>> Yeah. Can handle them.

27:05>> Like you need you need this back and

27:07forth. It can't just be one person

27:11dominating everything

27:12>> or and the other one just love bombing.

27:15>> Yeah. Yeah.

27:16>> And I think it's also about being

27:19willing to meet the avoidant where

27:22they're at rather than

27:26projecting your ideas onto them.

27:30Because it was when I was more willing

27:32to see you for who you were that made

27:34you open up more and talk to me about

27:38your issues because suddenly it wasn't

27:41like I was projecting some idealist

27:44version or some impossible standard onto

27:46you and hoping that you'll fulfill it

27:48>> right

27:49>> but I was like okay well you didn't

27:52reach out to me for a week

27:55what's up

27:56>> yeah and when you have this idea

27:59idealized version of me.

28:02>> There's no room for me to be human,

28:05to have these flaws, to have the

28:07weakness, which is another way I think

28:10actress people sabotage things.

28:12>> It's just too much pressure to have it

28:16all together to be this perfect partner.

28:20>> Yeah.

28:21>> And you overcoming that and being

28:25willing to say, "Okay, this is where

28:27he's at. this is what he can do and

28:29cannot do helped me

28:32feel safe enough, right? Because I

28:35wasn't afraid that there was going to be

28:36judgment

28:38because I'm falling from that pedestal,

28:41that it was okay to be human and to be

28:44flawed,

28:45>> that I could open up more and connect

28:47more.

28:48>> Yeah, absolutely. And I guess that goes

28:53both ways because it's not just that you

28:57had to be perfect,

29:00but somehow I had to be perfect, too.

29:02And I think one of the biggest ways in

29:06in which I stopped sabotaging our

29:08relationship was that I stopped

29:11expecting myself to be perfect

29:14>> and I allowed you to blame me for

29:17things.

29:18And and that was actually quite a

29:20mind-blowing

29:22experience that I made time and time

29:25again

29:26because

29:28you would start blaming me for something

29:30like, "Oh, you get upset so quickly.

29:34You're so controlling. You're putting

29:36all this pressure on me." And normally

29:39I'd get defensive and I'd be like, "How

29:41can you say that?" Or, "I'm just asking

29:44for this or that."

29:46But I allowed myself to be imperfect. So

29:50I'd be like, "Okay, let's just go with

29:53this narrative and see where it takes

29:55us." And I'd be like, "Okay, yeah, I I

29:59am putting all this pressure on you."

30:03And

30:06we'd start having a conversation about

30:08something I was doing that made you

30:10upset.

30:12And I noticed that within 10 minutes of

30:15this conversation, we go from blaming me

30:18to blaming your mom.

30:22And I was like, "Huh?"

30:25And that happened time and time again.

30:28Yeah.

30:28>> Which in turn helped me get even less

30:30defensive whenever he blamed me for

30:32things because I tell myself,

30:35>> "Oh, he's it's it's the same thing

30:38again. M

30:40>> he's overreacting or or maybe there is

30:43something I'm doing but his you know

30:48reaction or

30:50amount of emotion attached to this thing

30:55that I'm doing seems a bit um

30:58>> out of proportion.

30:59>> Yeah. Out of proportion to the like I

31:02okay I texted you three times in a row

31:04or you know and not always sometimes I

31:06was overriting your boundaries.

31:08Sometimes I was being needy, but but I I

31:11learned to take things not so

31:12personally. And I think that was a huge

31:17game changer for us because it allowed

31:19us to actually build trust

31:22>> like real trust, not this blind trust

31:24that was there before and all the hopes

31:27and ideas, but

31:29>> yeah.

31:29>> Actual connection.

31:31>> Yeah.

31:32And uh and I think another big part of

31:37what allowed me to stop sabotaging our

31:41relationship was letting go of the

31:43outcome. And and that's that's a big

31:46one. Actually, I want to talk more about

31:48this

31:49>> because I think this is something so

31:53many of my coaching clients, your

31:55coaching clients fall into. You're so

31:59attached to a particular outcome,

32:03you're preventing your partner from

32:05giving you what you want. So even if we

32:10had plans,

32:12I might be so particular about our

32:14plans, where we go, and how it feels

32:17like that it creates that pressure,

32:20right? That would then make you back out

32:22of the plan. That can be true of like

32:25wanting kids or marriage, right?

32:28>> It can be true of dinner.

32:30>> Yeah. But I'm just saying,

32:31>> yeah,

32:32>> in the context of more serious

32:34>> decisions of a relationship.

32:36>> Absolutely.

32:37>> When there is this expectation.

32:38>> Yeah. And and I think it is an attempt

32:41from the anxious person to control the

32:43avoidant. Absolutely. Because we're so

32:45afraid that like I was so afraid that

32:48you're not going to want to give me what

32:50I want that I would like clutch on to

32:53Thank you.

32:54>> Yeah.

32:54>> Yeah. Anxious people are controlling

32:57too.

32:58>> Yes.

32:58>> In their own ways and their own sneaky

33:01ways sometimes.

33:02>> Yeah. Yeah.

33:03>> And I think for the longest time I

33:06didn't I didn't see it. I felt

33:09something. I felt frustrated or annoyed

33:13like something like a bit of this like

33:15get off me,

33:16>> you know? I need my space.

33:18And I think a lot of it came from that

33:20too, that you were just

33:24very particular about certain things and

33:27made sure that you had you got what you

33:31wanted at the end of the day.

33:33>> Or I was so afraid that you're not going

33:35to want to give me what I wanted.

33:38>> Yeah. And in constantly trying to

33:42control it and make sure it happens and

33:44get what you want,

33:46>> I became increasingly frustrated and

33:48pushed back and was like to make a point

33:51almost. No, I'm not going to give you

33:53what you want under these conditions

33:56where you are forcing me to give you

33:58what you want.

33:59>> You have to allow me to give you what

34:01you want freely.

34:05>> That was a hard one.

34:07>> Yeah.

34:07>> Yeah.

34:08And it was a lesson I had to learn time

34:11and time again. And initially I only

34:14learned the opposite

34:16>> because that push for something and then

34:18you wouldn't give it to me which made me

34:20believe more and more that you don't

34:23care or that you we don't want the same

34:25things. I mean you even say it, right?

34:27>> Yeah. But

34:30the more I stepped back and the more I

34:33relaxed,

34:34the more I'd get positively surprised.

34:38And you did come around and you did give

34:42me what I wanted.

34:45We got back together every time.

34:47>> Yeah.

34:48>> And that came without me pushing for it.

34:52It just happened. In a way, it's about

34:55creating room to allow the avoidant

34:59partner to step up, to trust them that

35:02if you're not controlling everything

35:04about them or managing and micromanaging

35:06and ensuring they're not triggered and

35:08they're not upset and everything that

35:11they will come through. And I think this

35:14is one one of the other patterns that

35:16are so typical where you have the

35:20avoidant partner constantly distancing

35:22themselves or wanting space because the

35:25anxious person knowingly or not

35:28>> is controlling covertly. And not to say

35:32pushing isn't good sometimes, right? I

35:34think it depends where you're coming

35:35from. If it's from a place of I can't

35:38trust him to do what he needs to do, so

35:41I'm going to say this or do that little

35:44thing there to ensure he does what I

35:46want.

35:48>> It's you're sabotaging.

35:49>> If it's coming from a place of I know he

35:52needs this push now to get out of this

35:54slump of depression or whatever

35:57>> or I can't be good this silence anymore.

36:00>> Yeah.

36:01>> Or whatever.

36:02>> Yeah. Exactly.

36:03>> Yeah.

36:03>> Depends where you're coming from.

36:06So seeing your own controlling behavior

36:10and that it wasn't getting you what you

36:13wanted.

36:13>> I don't think I saw my own control.

36:16I I think from my perspective was like,

36:19oh, if I relax about it, I'm going to

36:21get what I want.

36:22>> Okay, I'm just going to take the

36:23satisfaction and calling it controlling

36:26behavior because that's what it was.

36:30M

36:32>> you're in the hot seat today.

36:35>> That is what it was. Yes.

36:37>> Right.

36:38>> I'm sorry.

36:42>> I'm still sorry.

36:43>> Still sorry. I think cuz it's it's with

36:46every pattern we uncover, right, that

36:48either of us have. It's this ongoing

36:52process, too. People tend to think like,

36:55I had my aha moment and now I'm over it

36:59and I'm different and I will never do it

37:01again. And what I tell my clients is

37:03when your partner has a breakthrough,

37:05expect them to relapse in a week,

37:08sometimes sooner. That's totally normal.

37:10It's expected.

37:12>> And you need to help them get back on

37:14their feet over and over again. And it's

37:16with time and effort and reinforcement

37:19and support that we finally come through

37:22and truly transform and come out the

37:25other end and let go of that pattern.

37:28But it's a process of building enough

37:30confidence and trust in this new way of

37:33coping in this new way of behaving to

37:36let go of the old coping mechanism.

37:39>> Yeah. Yeah. And you don't need to fully

37:42let go. It's about fixing it enough

37:46because I'm still anxious. I mean,

37:48you're still avoidant.

37:51You're also anxious. I'm still avoidant.

37:55We have flaws.

37:58But it was enough for me to stop being

38:01completely anxious and clutch on to you

38:05and be helpless

38:08to get you to stop breaking up and just

38:10stay.

38:11>> Yeah. And when that happened, when we

38:16last time we broke up and we got

38:19together

38:21and and the way we you were relating to

38:23me then to me came as a surprise like I

38:27was expecting

38:29the old pattern to continue the pulling

38:32away and the not answering and

38:35but I wasn't so anxious anymore. So even

38:39if you did, which I think sometimes you

38:43did still pull away. We were living half

38:46an hour away from each other by metro.

38:50>> But there were times when you just

38:52didn't text me and I some and and there

38:56were times when I'd text you instead, be

38:58like, "Okay, enough of this silence. Let

39:00me just text him and find out what he's

39:03up to."

39:05But there were also times when I'd be

39:06like, I'm sick of just chasing after

39:09him. Let me wait and see if I hear from

39:11you. And sometimes I wouldn't hear from

39:13you for like 5 days, seven days, even

39:16though we were together.

39:18But it didn't get to me in the way it

39:20used to.

39:22It wouldn't make me feel unsure of

39:26myself. It just was like mildly annoying

39:31or

39:32>> a bit like a test. how long until I hear

39:35from him. So, it was surprising, you

39:37know, when when we started working, it

39:41was surprising to me. I didn't expect

39:44it. It wasn't something I created. It

39:48was something that just happened.

39:51But I think that's part of this journey

39:53of anxious to secure that when you are

39:56secure, you're not so obsessed over the

40:00outcome. you're you're trusting this

40:02person that you're with, right, to come

40:06through and to not abandon you out of

40:08the blue for no reason. I mean, it's

40:10ridiculous the fear that anxious people

40:12have that you're going to be abandoned

40:15for no reason. Why would you be

40:17abandoned? I mean,

40:19>> yeah. Or even that if you are that it's

40:21somehow all your fault.

40:23>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

40:25>> That's ridiculous.

40:26>> It is ridiculous. Yeah. your avoidant

40:29partner also has issues.

40:30>> Yeah. So, yeah, when things were

40:33working, I was just like, how is it

40:37possible that now

40:40that I seem to care less and make less

40:42effort, you make more effort and things

40:46just work and we get along

40:49and we're good.

40:51>> Yeah.

40:52>> And I was still afraid of being

40:54abandoned, I think, for another year or

40:56something.

40:58But I could sense that we're growing

41:00closer and closer together

41:03and that just never happened again.

41:06>> Yeah.

41:07>> Yeah. Problem solved.

41:09>> It Yeah. It It is kind of ironic how in

41:13a way it is about letting go of patterns

41:16and behaviors and beliefs

41:18>> and control

41:19>> and control that allow for this

41:23normality. the I I would say just like

41:26maybe how you might be as a child when

41:30you don't have all this conditioning yet

41:31and all these beliefs and trauma. You

41:34just you just connect.

41:36>> You just make friends.

41:37>> Yeah. You just trust more easily. You

41:40connect more easily

41:42>> and it just feels like huh

41:44>> it just works. that just works

41:46>> rather than I have to layer on all these

41:49mechanisms, frameworks,

41:51ways of behaving, coping, controlling,

41:54whatever.

41:54>> Try to mold my partner, push them onto

41:57the right

41:58>> train track and Yeah.

42:00>> Yeah.

42:01And I find that what you're describing

42:03here too about letting go of all these

42:06kinds of controlling behaviors and like

42:10helping, trying to

42:12>> support is a dynamic we often see

42:18where it almost feels like a parental

42:22role where the anxious person plays the

42:27mother or father to their avoidant

42:29partner. that is in the child role where

42:33they're like I have to be this parent in

42:36a sense in order for this to work cuz if

42:38I don't it's all going to fall apart and

42:42that's a trap like it's not sustainable.

42:46I think there is room for some of it but

42:48it can't just operate on that basis.

42:52>> Yeah, I think some of it can be helpful

42:55and that still is the case for us,

42:59right?

43:00But it has to be very little.

43:03>> Yeah.

43:04>> And only when the other person is

43:07enjoying it.

43:08>> Yeah. When they're receptive.

43:10>> Yeah. When they want to be treated like

43:12a kid.

43:14>> And it can be nice sometimes, right?

43:16>> Get pets.

43:17>> Yeah.

43:18>> And like be like, "Okay, I'm having

43:20cookies for dinner."

43:23>> But when they're not receptive and you

43:26continue doing it,

43:27>> you're digging a hole. You're you're

43:29Yes. You're sabotaging.

43:30>> Yeah.

43:30>> You're not going to get what you want.

43:32>> Yeah.

43:33>> You're going to get burnt. I think the

43:35journey from anxious to secure in a way

43:38is a journey of acceptance that you

43:41can't control your partner,

43:44>> that you can't ensure that they're going

43:46to give you what you need. and learning

43:50to trust that they will want to

43:55to give you the things you need on their

43:58own accord

43:59>> or realizing that they will not and you

44:03know moving on.

44:05>> Yeah,

44:05>> I I think that also happens sometimes.

44:08It just turns out you can't get what you

44:10want from this person. They're literally

44:14not willing and some people are not. But

44:17you were and and I find a lot of

44:20avoidance are it is a matter of leaving

44:24them room and also putting them on the

44:27spot and confronting them and calling

44:28out their BS and

44:31giving them deadlines to make up their

44:34mind.

44:35>> They they need that.

44:36>> And you needed that. You needed me to

44:39step in whenever you were distant and

44:42unavailable. Sometimes you need to be

44:44straight up, you know, show up at your

44:46place and with something to like

44:51pretend that, you know, with pizza or

44:54drag you out.

44:56>> You needed that.

44:58>> Yeah. Yeah.

44:58>> To snap out of being depressed or

45:00something.

45:01>> Yeah. Absolutely.

45:02>> Much like I needed that,

45:03>> you know, I welcomed it.

45:04>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's a bit like a

45:09state of learned helplessness sometimes

45:10where you can't reach out for help.

45:13>> Yeah.

45:13>> And somebody needs to step in.

45:15>> But it's all about balance, right? You

45:17can't overdo anything. Whether it's like

45:19stepping back too much

45:21>> and just letting go entirely and saying,

45:24"I don't care. I'm doing no contact."

45:26>> Or just micromanaging everything

45:29>> or reaching out and love bombing.

45:32>> Yeah.

45:32>> Yeah.

45:33>> You need the middle ground. And you need

45:35to learn to get along.

45:39You're not working with some like it's

45:42another human being that you're trying

45:44to build a connection with, right? So,

45:48it's about

45:50cooperating instead of controlling or

45:54covertly manipulating.

45:56>> Yeah. It's funny that we stress this so

45:59much, but I find as obvious as it might

46:02sound,

46:03>> people don't Yeah. People don't realize

46:06>> that they're doing that right that

46:08they're not relating to their partner as

46:11an equal, as a person. They're like,

46:14"No, no, they're

46:15>> somehow deficient or broken and need

46:18this help or need to be controlled or

46:20whatever it is." And as long as you're

46:23coming from that place, they are going

46:25to feel resentment or frustrated at you

46:30for relating to them that way. And it

46:32generally goes both ways, right?

46:34And it doesn't end well if it continues

46:37for too long.

46:38>> Yeah. And if someone is making you feel

46:40broken and deficient

46:43to also be able to say no.

46:46>> Yeah.

46:47>> You're broken.

46:50>> You're you're no less broken than I am.

46:52>> Yeah. We're both broken.

46:56>> Yeah. So I think that was the journey

46:59for me. That's what changed.

47:02That's what allowed

47:05me to overcome the fear of being

47:07abandoned and build this relationship

47:11where I don't feel

47:13>> the need to control everything.

47:15>> Unless it's, you know, about certain

47:18>> Unless it's about baking.

47:19>> Unless it's about baking.

47:21>> No, but you've come a long way with

47:22baking. No, it's true.

47:24>> Yeah.

47:27>> And you also don't have the need to

47:30control everything. how the dishwasher

47:32is loaded.

47:34[Laughter]

47:40>> But we work.

47:41>> Yeah.

47:42>> And we both know we're hopelessly

47:46attached

47:48>> and there is room for either of us to be

47:50clingy and insecure. And there's also

47:54room for either of us to not have room

47:57for the other person.

47:59>> Yeah.

48:00>> To be like, I can't right now.

48:02>> Also bored.

48:03>> Yeah. Yeah. Turned out we did want the

48:06same thing and need the same thing.

48:08>> Yeah.

48:08>> Yeah.

48:09>> So in this this journey of yours from

48:12anxious to secure,

48:14how because you mentioned it earlier,

48:16right, that there is improvement along

48:18the way. It isn't about completing the

48:21journey to finally get what you want.

48:24>> You get what you want as you go along.

48:28How long would you say in our 13 14

48:31years of being together did you start

48:35seeing results?

48:37I

48:38>> think it was directly linked to me

48:41taking more charge.

48:44So within the first years,

48:45>> within the first year after the first

48:48breakup, it was already I already had

48:52that experience I think.

48:56>> But it wasn't until I would say one and

48:58a half years in after the last time we

49:02got back together.

49:04I think then that really started

49:06outweighing the bad stuff. I was getting

49:09more of what I was wanting over what

49:13wasn't working for me, right?

49:16>> Or over what I was missing.

49:18So, and the first six months was good,

49:22too. I'd argue, although we already had

49:26a bit of this pull away, and I was

49:27afraid of being abandoned. I was a bit

49:30caught up in

49:32what it was, what it all means.

49:36It never was black and white, you know?

49:38It never was like me not getting

49:40anything of what I wanted,

49:41>> right?

49:42>> And it was never like I'm getting

49:44everything I ever dreamt of,

49:47unfortunately.

49:49>> Uh but yeah, I think it was one and a

49:53half years in.

49:55>> Okay. that it became

49:58where it flipped where it went from

50:00getting worse and worse and worse to

50:02better and better and better.

50:04>> Excellent.

50:05>> I'm glad to hear you can put that on my

50:07performance report.

50:10>> Husband of the year.

50:12>> Definitely going to give you a husband

50:14of the year.

50:14>> Did I get a gold sticker?

50:16>> Yes. And yeah, there is room for

50:20people to some people want to be

50:22sometimes treated like

50:26It's nice.

50:26>> And it's not just me.

50:27>> Sometimes it's nice.

50:29>> Yeah.

50:30>> Okay. Well, thank you for sharing your

50:33anxious to secure journey.

50:35>> Did you get enough confrontation? I I

50:38don't feel like you were confrontational

50:39enough.

50:40>> No, I felt like I was still on the hot

50:42seat. Yeah.

50:43>> Even though you're supposed I don't

50:44know. Maybe I have to practice it.

50:46>> I think you have to learn from me to

50:51>> You're trying to understand. I have to

50:53lean in more.

50:54>> Too much responsibility.

50:56>> You're too anxious.

51:00>> I'll work on it.

51:01>> I used to be more critical. What

51:03happened?

51:03>> Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I'm just too

51:05kind now.

51:10>> All right, guys. Well, thank you for

51:12watching today's episode. If you found

51:15this helpful, do please like the video,

51:17subscribe if you want to hear more from

51:19us, and you know, if you found this

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51:23would benefit, share it with them, and

51:26check out our links in the description

51:28if you want more resources. We have

51:30plenty of free stuff on our website,

51:32too.

51:34>> Thank you for watching.

51:36>> All right, bye for now.