Full transcript
0:01This podcast is a production of Rádio
0:03Guarda-chuva . Journalism for those who
0:05like to listen .
0:15This podcast is presented by
0:17bob.com.br.
0:22Hi , I don't know if you've noticed , but
0:24whenever someone proposes to discuss
0:26the impacts of the internet and social
0:28media on our human existence , one
0:30argument stands out : " Ah , but people
0:32were afraid of the radio . Then people
0:34were afraid of television , and we spent
0:36100 years listening to the radio , 50
0:38years watching television , and that
0:40fear was never justified . " Hmm . In
0:44homage to this beautiful argument , I'm
0:47going to start today's episode talking
0:49about radio , not radio , like the
0:51grandmother of podcasts , but radio , the
0:53radio set , especially a type of device
0:56called Volksen Funger , the people's
0:58radio in German . It was a very simple
1:02little device , like the Volkswagen
1:04Beetle of radios . And in the 1930s ,
1:06with government incentives , it began to
1:09be sold for a price much lower than
1:11normal radios , something like 20 % of the
1:13full price . In the following years ,
1:20this little radio was sold in the
1:22millions . Historians say that in 1939 ,
1:2665 % of German homes had a Volksfanger .
1:31The only problem with these radios was
1:33that they had a short range and only
1:35picked up local stations that almost
1:37always played German music interspersed
1:39with advertisements praising the
1:40government . The Chancellor of Germany
1:47at that time , you know , was a guy named
1:49Adolf Hitler , who had a propaganda
1:51minister named Joseph Gebels , who was
1:53the creator of the Volksfanger , the
1:56people's radio . I'm Tomas and Averini ,
2:07and the 33rd episode of Escafandro has
2:10already begun . In it , we're going to
2:15talk about how politicians have used
2:17the internet and social media to gain
2:18power and stay there . Before we go on ,
2:23I want to remind you that Escafandro
2:25radio is maintained solely and
2:26exclusively by its listeners . As you
2:28know , this is done through a
2:30crowdfunding campaign . To be a part of
2:32it is simple . Just go to Catarse . Or
2:36visit picpay.me/escafandro and choose
2:41the amount you want or can support the
2:43project monthly . And if you want to
2:46help the project but can't spend money
2:48right now , there are other ways to do
2:50it . You can give Escafandro radio a
2:51good review on your podcast player , if
2:53it gives you that option , or you can
2:55follow and share the podcast on social
2:57media . I'm everywhere as @Tomasini and @
3:01rádioescafandro . For those of you who
3:12have already helped the project , thank
3:14you very much . Hitler's Germany had 70
3:22million inhabitants . Bolsonaro's Brazil
3:25has 210 million . We don't really have a
3:28people's radio , but it's estimated that
3:30WhatsApp is currently used by somewhere
3:33between 120 and 140 million Brazilians .
3:35This comparison between WhatsApp and
3:38the Nazi people's radio wasn't my idea .
3:40She's in a book called * The Hate Machine
3:42* , recently released by reporter ,
3:44writer , and columnist for * Fora de São
3:46Paulo * , Patrícia Campos Melo .
3:48Incidentally , Companhia das Letras sent
3:50me a copy of this book , and I'll be
3:51raffling it off among the podcast's
3:53supporters in the coming days . So keep
3:55an eye on the radio's Instagram .
3:57Several facts and pieces of information
3:58that I'll mention here were taken from
4:00the story that Patrícia Campos Melo
4:02tells in the book . A story that began
4:04in 2018 , a little before the
4:06presidential elections . I'm
4:15not a political reporter , right ? It
4:17wasn't , it's not my area .
4:19Patrícia's area is international
4:21coverage . She's award-winning and
4:22recognized both here and abroad for her
4:24war coverage , such as in Afghanistan ,
4:26Syria , and for a series of reports she
4:28did in Sierra Leone during the Ebola
4:30epidemic . In addition ,
4:34I had been covering several elections
4:35around the world where populist leaders
4:37were using disinformation campaigns to
4:39manipulate public opinion . Some
4:44emblematic elections were in India in
4:462014 , which led to Narendra becoming
4:48prime minister , and then , obviously ,
4:51Donald Trump in 2016 , elected president
4:53in the United States . Because of all
4:56this , the newspaper thought it was a
4:58good idea to ask Patricia to use her
5:00international experience to cover the
5:02Brazilian elections . Even back then ,
5:04when people were talking about
5:05disinformation campaigns , WhatsApp was
5:07at the forefront .
5:09WhatsApp in Brazil is the main vehicle
5:11for disinformation . First , because
5:13Brazil is WhatsApp's second-largest
5:16market . Think about it , Brazil has 209
5:18million people and 130 million WhatsApp
5:21users . India , which is the largest
5:24market , has 1.3 billion inhabitants and
5:27400 million WhatsApp users . So , in
5:29Brazil it's much more widespread . And
5:40how does one begin an investigation
5:42involving the most obscure political
5:44forces allied with a technology company
5:46that insists on keeping a part of its
5:49electronic mechanisms under lock and
5:50key ? Patricia Campos Melos followed the
5:59advice immortalized by Deep Throat , the
6:01source of the Watergate scandal , and
6:03which has been followed by generation
6:05after generation of reporters : Follow
6:08the money .
6:10So , you see where all this messaging
6:12was coming from ? Everyone was saying , "
6:15No , this is all voluntary , this is all
6:17organic , it's the supporters , right ? "
6:20And then I started talking to several
6:22marketing agencies , marketers who used
6:24the service , owners , former employees .
6:28And then came the first story , which
6:30showed that businessmen had bought
6:32packages of mass messaging campaigns to
6:35send out messages in the week before
6:37the second round of the 2018 election
6:39against the then-PT candidate , Fernando
6:41Haddad . The contracts were worth up to
6:51R $ 1 million each . And one of the
6:53companies most cited by the marketers
6:55was Van , which belongs to Luciano Hang ,
6:57a radical Bolsonaro supporter . The
7:02story fell like a bomb in the Bolsonaro
7:04bunker . First , because the messages
7:06could be considered part of the
7:08election campaign and had not been
7:10declared , which is prohibited . Secondly
7:12, because they had been paid by
7:14companies , which was also prohibited .
7:17And thirdly , because mass messaging
7:19could only be used to promote a
7:21candidate , never to defame the opponent
7:23, which had also been done . In other
7:26words , all this noise could constitute
7:28a crime of abuse of economic power ,
7:30which ultimately could result in the
7:32annulment of the Bolsonaro-Mourão
7:33ticket . And then I published the story
7:36and the reaction was fierce .
7:39A campaign to deconstruct my person
7:40began .
7:42The first step was to unearth an
7:43interview that Patrícia had given to
7:45students in 2013 , when she was still an
7:48international reporter and didn't cover
7:50Brazilian politics .
7:51A student had asked me : " How do you
7:53define your political opinion ? "
7:54I am a leftist . I am a leftist . I will
7:57always support the PT ( Workers ' Party ) .
7:59And now I'll just make a half-hearted
8:00apology here that I think it's a
8:02mistake for a journalist to declare
8:03their vote . I think it's a mistake ,
8:06everyone votes for someone , but I think
8:08it affects how our work is viewed ,
8:10right ?
8:11And the internet doesn't forget .
8:12And they made it go viral . A really
8:15massive thing of " oh communist , PT
8:17supporter , this lying article , there's
8:19no proof . " But , you can't tell where
8:23this smear campaign came from ,
8:26this great beauty and the great danger
8:28of social media is that everything is
8:29very decentralized , right ? So , you had
8:32several Bolsonaro-supporting
8:34influencers , right ? Real influencers
8:37with many followers . And we don't know
8:40who's spreading this , right ? Because
8:43you can't know who's spreading the
8:44memes . For example , one of the things
8:49they spread was a photo of a blonde
8:50woman with then-candidate Fernando
8:52Haddad saying : " Look , the journalist
8:54Patrícia Campos Mão was me . " But that
9:05, dear listeners , was the mild part .
9:11Insults , etc. But then in the days that
9:19followed , things started to get weird .
9:23First , they sent a message talking
9:25about my son .
9:26At the time , Patricia's son was 6 years
9:29old and
9:30said , " Ah , if you want your son's
9:32safety , it's better to leave the
9:33country . This isn't a threat , it's a
9:36warning . " Then they started calling my
9:40cell phone , saying they were going to
9:41destroy my face , something like that .
9:51In other words , they had my cell phone
9:52number , they knew I had a son . Then
9:57they started sending messages in
9:59Bolsonaro supporter groups , saying
10:00things like , " At public events I was
10:02going to do , so-and-so , the communist
10:04journalist , is going to be somewhere ,
10:06at whatever time , go there to confront
10:08her . " And then it got very , very scary ,
10:15you know ? I usually think that internet
10:20lunatics stay on the internet , right ?
10:23They're just internet bullies , but when
10:25it starts migrating to real life , and
10:27then the newspaper thought it best to
10:28have someone with me , like a bodyguard ,
10:30just for that , you know ? I don't know
10:33if I was going to leave at any point ,
10:35if some crazy person was going to throw
10:37a glass at my face , something like that
10:38.
10:41Besides the threats of the smear
10:43campaign , there was some skepticism
10:45about mass messaging .
10:46People were saying things like , " Oh no ,
10:48that doesn't exist . Mass messaging is
10:50made up . "
10:51But Patrícia Campos Melo kept pulling
10:53the thread . After the first scoop , she
10:58published another report about a
11:00proposal
11:00for the PSDB ( Brazilian Social
11:02Democracy Party ) .
11:04Then , in partnership with reporter
11:06Artur Rodrigues , she decided to use
11:08another trick often employed by
11:10investigative reporters ,
11:15which is to check the companies '
11:16records to see if they had any labor
11:18lawsuits ,
11:18in this case , the companies that sold
11:20mass messaging packages .
11:22And there were some ; we tracked down
11:24the people who were suing , and one of
11:26them was this Mr.
11:28Hans River do Rio do Nascimento ,
11:30who was suing the Iacaus agency . It was
11:33a lawsuit where he was claiming
11:34overtime pay that he said hadn't been
11:36paid .
11:36And attached to the case file was a
11:38journalistic goldmine .
11:41To prove his work , he attached several
11:43photos , you know , of what the room
11:44looked like , what the cell phones
11:46looked like , the SIM card boxes , and
11:48several message exchanges with the
11:50agency owners . Then I contacted him ,
11:53sent a WhatsApp message , and said : "
11:55Look , uh , I know you're pursuing a
11:57labor lawsuit , I'm doing a story on
11:59digital marketing . I'd like to talk to
12:01you about the lawsuit . " And he agreed .
12:05So I went to meet him at a bakery near
12:06his house . He said : " You can record it ,
12:09you can put my name on it . "
12:11I asked Patricia to give more details
12:12about this first contact , because after
12:14Hans River's videos came out in the
12:16press , his slightly high-pitched voice ,
12:18his somewhat sideways glance , the
12:20flowery shirts with four buttons undone
12:22during a formal deposition , everything
12:24there seemed a bit shady . I was very
12:26careful , because the messages showed
12:28the company owners saying things like :
12:30" Oh , you don't show up for work , and so
12:32on . " When I arrived , the first thing he
12:36said was : " Oh , I don't have money , I
12:38have to pay child support and I'm
12:39diabetic , I don't have money to buy
12:41insulin , can you give me some ? " I said :
12:44" Sure , R $ 20 , right ? " " I did it like I
12:47would with anyone , right ? Like I've
12:48done many times in my life , you know ,
12:50covering refugees . But , well ,
12:52everything was kind of , you know ? Kind
12:54of convoluted , dragging on . So much so
12:57that we only included in the report
12:59what was absolutely documented , right ?
13:03Either with the spreadsheet he gave me
13:05or with photos .
13:06Furthermore , in this report , no
13:08politician was mentioned
13:09because this guy didn't have access ,
13:11right ? He was the guy who was there
13:13pressing the button to send the mass
13:14messages . So what he explained , and
13:18what we put in the article , was this
13:20operation that had software that was a
13:21WhatsApp simulator where you put the
13:23cell phones or SIM cards with multiple
13:25SIM cards stuck together . Then you
13:29needed lists of CPF numbers ( Brazilian
13:31tax ID ) to register the SIM cards . And
13:34how did all this work ? So I was very
13:37careful not to write anything based
13:38solely on what he was saying . But then ,
13:41in fact , we investigated , he spoke , he
13:43came back to the newspaper later
13:45wanting to see , he met with me and
13:46Artur , everything was fine , because for
13:48him ... " He was interested ; he wanted to
13:50reach a labor agreement with the
13:52company . He did all that , passed all
13:54the materials to us . Then one day we
13:56said , " Look , we're going to call the
13:58agency owners because we need to hear
13:59the other side , we need to hear their
14:01side . " So we called and asked , we spoke
14:04to one of them , a press officer they
14:06had hired , and we said , " Look , we're
14:08doing a story , this and that involves
14:10this employee , this is moving this and
14:12that . "
14:12A day later , even before the report was
14:15published ,
14:15he sent a message saying , " I don't want
14:17you to publish anything anymore . I
14:19don't want it anymore , take back
14:20everything I said , I don't want you to
14:22publish it . " Then I said , " Well , we
14:24need to understand why you passed all
14:25the evidence to us , right ? What
14:27happened ? You're being threatened , you
14:29need to talk , you can talk to the
14:30police , right ? " He didn't answer , he
14:32just kept saying , " I don't want to talk
14:33, I don't want to talk . " Then we went
14:35to the Labor Court website , he had
14:36reached an agreement with the company ,
14:38if I'm not mistaken it was R $ 10,000 ,
14:39and that's why he didn't want to talk .
14:41So we wrote , well , we're not going to
14:43be used to close a labor agreement for
14:44you , right ? You provided all the
14:46evidence , you spoke on the record ,
14:48everything is recorded , etc. And then
14:50we did the story . Obviously , I thought
14:52the guy wasn't very happy , but he never
14:54said anything again . Then , in February
14:56of this year , during a session of the
14:58Parliamentary Commission of Inquiry
15:00into fake news , which is about a
15:01network of disinformation and
15:03dissemination of false news , I was
15:04covering something else , but there was
15:06a colleague there , and when he started
15:08talking , uh , he told a lot of lies ,
15:10right ? He lied from beginning to end .
15:12He said that I had contacted him , he
15:14hadn't said it was to talk about the
15:15lawsuit . Uh , then we had all the
15:19messages saying that and that I wanted
15:21a story in exchange for sex . And when I
15:25arrived at the FIA in São Paulo , when
15:27she heard the refusal , the dismissal I
15:29gave , I made it clear that it wasn't in
15:31my interest for someone to want a
15:33certain type of story in exchange for
15:35sex , that wasn't my intention . My
15:38intention was to be heard .
15:39And it was all so absurd
15:41that at first , obviously , I got very
15:43nervous because it was a horrible thing
15:44, you know , someone saying that and
15:46lying in a Parliamentary Commission of
15:48Inquiry . But on the other hand , since I
15:51had everything absolutely documented , I
15:53kind of calmed down , an inner peace
15:55that made me think , well , I'll get to
15:56the newsroom and do a story showing all
15:58the evidence , I'll open the recordings ,
16:00it's all there , right ? Everything's
16:03fine . And the guy lied in the
16:04Parliamentary Commission of Inquiry ,
16:06it's a crime . But in the meantime , uh ,
16:09Congressman Eduardo Bolsonaro made a
16:11video about it , tweeted it , then he
16:12went to the Chamber's plenary session ,
16:14and he said ,
16:16let's leave aside the issue of
16:18Patrícia Campos Melo and the sexual
16:20innuendo . Let's get to the facts that
16:22matter . From then on ,
16:23all the Bolsonaro-supporting
16:24congressmen ,
16:25the trolls , the bots , and the most
16:27fervent social media activists went
16:29into action .
16:29It turned into a massacre , right ?
16:32Because , I don't know , in a short time
16:35you had millions of memes , pornographic
16:37montages , a naked woman's body , and a
16:39photo of my face , uh , embracing a photo
16:41with the face of the witness . Then ,
16:44when it seemed like things couldn't get
16:46any worse , she wanted , she wanted a
16:48scoop .
16:49When President Bolsonaro amplified this
16:52again , right , when he made that uh
16:54sexual joke , right , with me ,
16:57she wanted a scoop .
17:01Then there were messages from people
17:03saying : " You deserve to be raped from
17:05there down . " We're learning that the
17:22bottom of the gas station has a
17:24basement , right ? This slightly nervous
17:27laugh is from lawyer Mariana Valente . I
17:29spoke with her because , in addition to
17:31being the director of the Internet Lab ,
17:33a multidisciplinary research center on
17:35the internet , she's a professor at
17:37Insper , a researcher at Cebrap , and a
17:39scholar of digital hate speech against
17:41women .
17:42This involves a series of things that
17:43already exist and are already enshrined
17:45in law . So , threatening someone isn't
17:49new , right ? That's always been
17:51prohibited , it's always existed .
17:53Extorting someone too . Defaming someone
17:57too , but suddenly there's a possibility
17:58of doing it in an organized way , which
18:00is something that hasn't yet gained a
18:02proper expression . For example ,
18:06stalking — we don't even have a word
18:08for it in Portuguese . We have a
18:13provision in the penal code for a kind
18:15of obsessive pursuit , but stalking ,
18:16which is relentlessly pursuing someone ,
18:18is something that has become much more
18:20possible through the internet . So , it
18:26seems that hate speech against women
18:28could also be the case , right ? Suddenly
18:33we see it being presented in a very
18:35organized way and with a new importance
18:36. Finally , it's not at all a
18:43demonization of the internet ,
18:45especially because these things have
18:46emerged as a response to the
18:48possibility of new voices being able to
18:50express themselves and gain traction in
18:52the virtual environment because of the
18:53open architecture , right , where anyone
18:55can start writing and be heard . And I
19:02wanted to take this opportunity to
19:04briefly comment that we talk about open
19:05architecture , but most of these
19:07communications are happening on
19:08platforms that have their own
19:10architecture , right ? So we have to put
19:13a caveat in this open architecture
19:15story to get to the point I know you've
19:16been making
19:17here . Of course , we're mainly talking
19:20about them , our little friends ,
19:21algorithms that reward hate ,
19:23polarization , and performative activism
19:25. And if you don't know what I'm
19:27talking about , go back two spaces , or
19:29rather two episodes , and it will all
19:31become much clearer . In any case ,
19:33regardless of the platform ,
19:35if there's something common to all
19:37these manifestations of the New Right ,
19:39conservative movements , these online
19:41articulations , it's anti-feminism .
19:45Feminism is seen by different groups as
19:47something pernicious from different
19:48perspectives , right ? From very
19:57conservative people , who see feminism
19:59as destroying the family and values , to
20:01those with other perspectives , not
20:03necessarily of that type of
20:05conservatism , who believe that feminism
20:07colonizes political discussions and
20:09online debates ... in short , it's very
20:11common , and recently in Brazil , it's
20:13very much linked to the upper echelons
20:15of power . We saw this ridicule during
20:27Jair Bolsonaro's campaign , and we've
20:29seen people connected to him , from his
20:31family , perpetuating this type of
20:33manifestation . And with that , I don't
20:40mean to say that they are the only
20:42sexist figures in Brazilian politics ,
20:43not at all . But we've seen a
20:48normalization of this type of discourse
20:50and behavior that has spread . I think
20:55it's even worth mentioning something
20:57from a personal perspective : this
20:58research on hate speech against women ,
21:00when we conceived the project ,
21:01about two years ago , it
21:03wasn't dangerous , for example , to talk
21:05about these issues , as it has become .
21:08This has made many people think twice
21:10before talking about certain subjects
21:12or touching on certain things . These
21:15were some decisions we had to make as a
21:17team throughout this project . I mean ,
21:20look , this is very important , but we
21:22have to approach it very carefully , or
21:24not address it at all , thinking about
21:26safety .
21:26And did you avoid addressing any topics
21:28because of this , Mariana ? Look , I'm
21:32very interested , for example , in
21:34understanding how the chans are
21:36organizing themselves around misogyny ,
21:38but doing research with a solid
21:40foundation is very complicated . And so ,
21:44it's not a personal decision of mine ,
21:46right ? It's a decision that involves
21:48the safety of the people on my team .
21:51We're talking about very violent
21:53attacks , right ? happening to people ,
21:56frightening people . Addressing these
22:10issues in Brazil today involves risks ,
22:12and part of those risks is associated
22:14with a normalization of this type of
22:24individualization of the people who
22:26write , right , an intimidation , and
22:27that's linked to how powerful people
22:29endorse this type of behavior . Of
22:35course , this sends a message , right ?
22:38People's behavior isn't just linked to
22:40what's prohibited by law and what isn't
22:42. And the normalization of this form of
22:45violence is precisely what we're trying
22:50to study , precisely what we're trying
22:51to understand . And then suddenly all of
22:54this involves new risks , right ? And a
22:59very difficult scenario to understand ,
23:00and one that everyone is focusing on ,
23:02and in the heat of the moment it's
23:04difficult to have the distance to be
23:05able to talk about it from a research
23:07point of view , even more so when your
23:09research involves taking risks , right ?
23:12We've
23:12seen that the attacks aren't just
23:14against women , right ? There's a
23:17hostility towards journalism and
23:18journalists that's far greater than
23:20under other governments .
23:22Patricia Campos Melo is back .
23:24No government likes the press , right ?
23:26It's not our job to be darlings ,
23:29but after Bolsonaro came to power ,
23:31this becomes very personalized , right ?
23:34And much more aggressive towards women .
23:37The type of language and the level of
23:39aggression towards women is much higher
23:41, right ? Well , they rarely say things
23:43like , " Oh , your article is rubbish or
23:45your article is wrong . That's part of
23:47the game , it's welcome and necessary .
23:48We make mistakes and need to correct
23:50them , right ? " But what they will say is
23:53, " Oh , you're old , you're ugly , you're
23:55fat , you offer sex , your family is this
23:57and that , your son is that and that . "
24:00It's a type of attack whose ultimate
24:02goal is to serve as censorship . Because
24:07if we write investigative articles and
24:09we know that every time we publish
24:10something like that it will become an
24:12attack , it's obvious that we're going
24:13to stop and think , and that will
24:15function in a way as self-censorship . I
24:18don't think so , I haven't stopped
24:20writing anything , but obviously every
24:22time I'm going to publish an article of
24:24this type , I'm afraid , right ? Because I
24:26don't know where the attack is coming
24:27from , the function is intimidation . And
24:30you always have a segment of the
24:32population that wants to free itself
24:33from the yoke of political
24:35incorrectness . So , suddenly , you have a
24:39The government and several politicians
24:41who are openly misogynistic will always
24:43attack by exploiting this kind of
24:45ingrained prejudice in a segment of the
24:47population , which is exactly what they
24:49want . So , it explodes , right ? It
24:52becomes something , it's always these
24:54things , or it's a woman , right , a woman
24:56who has a voice , who is chosen , right ?
24:58How so ? A woman who has a voice , she
25:00doesn't fit in . Uh , or it's some member
25:04of a minority , or it's a Black person ,
25:06or it's a trans person , or it's an LGBT
25:08person , or a woman .
25:11How old was your son at the time of
25:13this article , Pata ?
25:13So , in 2018 , he was 6 years old .
25:16Old enough to understand , but not to
25:18protect himself , right ? He saw , he saw
25:21one of those , he saw a video , right ? He
25:24found a video , he was 7 years old , but
25:27thinking about it today , that video was
25:29OK , right ? Of course , it's horrible ,
25:32it's a guy calling me a . It's
25:35awful . But imagine if he had found it ,
25:38and I hope he never does . Find any of
25:41those porn videos or porn memes ,
25:43there's no way to explain that to a
25:45child , right ? It's impossible . That
25:49will never be erased . That garbage will
25:51stay on the internet forever . Just like
26:12the traditional kind of advertising
26:14that Gebus did on the people's radio ,
26:16mass messaging campaigns done via
26:18WhatsApp work with the idea of
26:19repetition . Once a narrative is created
26:25about a certain theme — a penis-shaped
26:27piece of wood , satanist pedophiles ,
26:29Miriam Leitão's false participation in
26:31a bank robbery — that narrative is
26:33spread massively and repeatedly . It's
26:42called fire hosing , that verb derived
26:44from the English term fire hose . We
26:47talked about it in the previous episode
26:49. By the way , again , if you haven't
26:51listened to the first two chapters of
26:53the series , I recommend them , because
26:55here , as in good conspiracy theories ,
26:57everything is connected . This
27:03repetition of the same message
27:05basically serves to create familiarity ,
27:07to make people get used to that idea .
27:10And once something is imprinted in our
27:12heads as truth , it's very difficult to
27:14change it . But despite these While
27:19similar to traditional advertising ,
27:21WhatsApp has some characteristics that
27:23make things different . To begin with ,
27:25the bulk of messages are exchanged
27:26between people who know each other .
27:28This means that these messages usually
27:30arrive with a seal of authenticity . I
27:33say usually because the opposite also
27:35happens . Almost everyone has that one
27:37type of person who isn't blocked just
27:39to avoid even more awkwardness at the
27:41next family Christmas dinner , if we
27:42ever have family dinners again , or if
27:44we ever do again at Christmas . But
27:46anyway , besides arriving through
27:48acquaintances , many of these messages
27:49arrive through groups . If you're in a
27:52group , especially a political group ,
27:53you're likely to agree with the general
27:55ideology circulating there . In other
27:58words , if you're in a Bolsonaro group ,
28:00you're more likely to accept the idea
28:02that Miranda Leitão is a communist
28:04thief than if you're in a PT group .
28:10These particularities were noticed very
28:12early on by Bolsonaro , actually by his
28:14son , Carlos Bolsonaro , who saw this
28:16phenomenon being exploited in campaigns
28:18abroad and decided to apply it to his
28:20father's communication strategy . It
28:22took years to create ... and cultivating
28:24groups within a broad and complex web
28:26through which much of Bolsonaro's
28:28communication flows today . But there's
28:32another important difference between
28:34this postmodern " radio of the people "
28:36of Bolsonaro and the original " radio of
28:38the people " of Hitler . Unlike what
28:40happened in Nazi Germany , today it's
28:42impossible to know what's being
28:43transmitted by this network of
28:45orchestrated groups and unsuspecting
28:47simpletons . Patrícia Campos Melo
28:48doesn't know and will never know how
28:50many people received pornographic
28:52montages with her face . She doesn't
28:54even know if these messages are still
28:56circulating now , while we retrace the
28:57steps of the path she began more than
28:59two years ago . A path that didn't stop
29:04with this broad campaign of
29:05intimidation and demoralization . But
29:07before moving forward , Patrícia Campos
29:10Melo decided to take an action that we
29:12journalists rarely take . She decided to
29:14counterattack , and not only in the
29:16pages of newspapers . She decided to sue
29:18Hans River do Nascimento .
29:20The guy lied in a Parliamentary
29:21Commission of Inquiry . His lie led to a
29:24virtual sacrifice of offense ... " It's
29:26about honor , right ? And the president
29:29of the Republic ,
29:30and he went there and repeated it , he
29:32amplified it . He already knew it was a
29:34lie , we had already proven it was a lie
29:36. And if we only sued Hans , it would be
29:39kind of unfair , right ? You're only
29:42going to punish the guy who isn't the
29:44powerful , lying guy , etc. He offended
29:46my honor , I'm going to sue . But when
29:49President Bolsonaro said that , and
29:50since he had already been involved in
29:52many attacks against the press , and
29:54what he said generated something very
29:56aggressive against me , then we decided
29:57to sue ,
29:58and Patrícia started pulling the
30:00threads of this web of illegal attacks
30:01again . And the clue to the next thread
30:08came to her in an audio recording made
30:10during a lunch in Spain . I had a source
30:16who called me and said : ' Look , I was at
30:19lunch , there's a guy here who has an
30:21agency in Spain , this guy had already
30:24done it , he did mass messaging for
30:26several parties there , he did it for
30:29Podemos , he did it for the PSO . ' "
30:32According to the source , this Spanish
30:34marketer named Luiz Novoa claimed that
30:36his company's programs had been used
30:38for mass messaging during the Brazilian
30:40elections . So I kept pressing him , and
30:42he sent me the audio .
30:43In the audio , Luiz Novoa actually said
30:45that Brazilian companies were using his
30:47system , that he didn't know about it ,
30:49that WhatsApp started taking down
30:51accounts , and that's why he
30:52investigated and found that 80-90 % of
30:54the Brazilian agencies working with his
30:56system were running political campaigns
30:58. In the audio , you could hear someone
31:00asking if these messages were linked to
31:02any political party , and I didn't
31:04answer . They were campaigns for
31:05Bolsonaro .
31:07We went to verify this ; I trusted the
31:09source , but I needed to confirm it ,
31:11right ? I needed to confirm all this
31:15information with the guy . I couldn't
31:17publish a story based solely on an
31:18audio recording . And I was about to
31:21take a trip where I was first going to
31:23India to cover the Indian election .
31:26From there , Patrícia would take a
31:27plane to participate in an event in the
31:29United Kingdom before returning to
31:31cover the end of the Indian elections .
31:32Well , you know how it is , the life of
31:34an international correspondent . And
31:42then when I was in London , I told the
31:44newspaper : " Look , I'm going to give an
31:46insert . " I found the address , an
31:52address the guy had on the internet , it
31:54was in La Coruña . I took a budget
32:03flight there with a company called
32:04Voiling . I found a really cheap , shabby
32:08guesthouse , because that's what it was ,
32:10you know ? And I could go broke , right ?
32:14So I couldn't spend too much money on
32:16the newspaper's budget either .
32:18The life of an international
32:19correspondent , please don't confuse it
32:21with the life of an international spy .
32:31And then I went to the address I had , I
32:32went to do a call . I thought it was his
32:35office . Then I found out it was his
32:36house . I sat in a café that was right
32:41in front of the gate of the house and
32:43waited there eating Ramon Serrano ,
32:44drinking Coca-Cola Zero .
32:48In the end , Luís Novoa didn't show up ,
32:50so we went to plan B. She sent a
32:52message introducing herself as a
32:53journalist , saying she was covering the
32:55Indian elections and wanted to talk off
32:58the record , or unofficially , about his
33:00work on political campaigns . So
33:02I went to have coffee with him , and I
33:03told him , " Look , I'm just going to
33:04record this , you know , " and he said , "
33:06Okay . " And then he confirmed everything
33:07.
33:07This off-the-record conversation
33:09couldn't be used , but it confirmed that
33:11the audio was genuine and added to
33:13another probable crime in the Bolsonaro
33:15campaign : hiring foreign companies
33:16without representatives in Brazil ,
33:18which is prohibited by electoral law .
33:20Obviously , the guy wasn't very happy at
33:22that moment , and said , " No , but I'm
33:23going to deny it , I'm going to deny it .
33:25" I said , " Well , you can deny it , but
33:27you said this in the audio , you said
33:29this here , and so on . " And that was it ,
33:31did it
33:32prove it ?
33:33Yes .
33:40And then there's one last anecdote ,
33:41which is the story of when you were at
33:43the Gabo Festival , right ? Covering
33:45something that had nothing to do with
33:47the subject , and suddenly there was
33:48another scoop , right ? Yes , totally . We
33:50were there , I went to participate in
33:52the Gabo Festival .
33:53The Gabo Festival is an annual
33:55journalism event that takes place in
33:57Medellín , Colombia , in 2019. It
33:59happened on October 4th . I
34:01was even with a friend , Cristina
34:02Tardágila , who is from the
34:04international network of fact-checkers .
34:06At
34:06this event , there was a panel with a
34:08public policy manager from WhatsApp .
34:10Patricia , of course , went to watch
34:12because it was an interesting topic and
34:13very relevant to the work she had been
34:15doing in recent months , but she
34:16couldn't even imagine the bombshell she
34:18would receive in the middle of the
34:20presentation .
34:21The guy spoke as if nothing had
34:23happened , saying , " WhatsApp was used
34:25irregularly and massively during the
34:26Brazilian election , in an attempt to
34:28influence the Brazilian election . " And
34:33that was something that WhatsApp hadn't
34:34said for a year ; it was the first
34:36admission they made , right ? I even
34:39remembered , I looked at Cris's face ,
34:41she looked at mine , like , " He's saying
34:43what we're hearing , " and then we , I did
34:45the story .
34:55This official confirmation was kind of
34:57the icing on the cake of this whole
34:59series of reports about irregular
35:00messaging . Because at the beginning of
35:04the articles , people literally said I
35:05was lying , that mass messaging didn't
35:07exist , that it was all a lie , right ?
35:09That I was saying this because I was a
35:10communist , or something like that . So
35:13the day WhatsApp itself admitted it ,
35:14they completely changed their behavior ,
35:16right ? For example , in April they sued
35:21one of the agencies I denounced in the
35:23article because they were still doing
35:25mass messaging , which violates
35:26WhatsApp's terms of service , right ?
35:28Yeah , but it was super unexpected . And
35:37in the end , can we say more or less
35:38what the impact of this whole system
35:40was on the elections ? That's the
35:42million-dollar question . There's no
35:47quantitative study that proves or shows
35:49that a disinformation campaign , whether
35:51it's a trending hashtag , a false meme ,
35:53or a WhatsApp campaign , can change
35:55someone's vote . The election in Brazil
36:01was decided by WhatsApp . Quantitatively
36:03, you can't say that . What you can say
36:07is that this type of disinformation
36:08campaign always favors a certain type
36:10of candidate , the extremist candidate ,
36:12right ? Never the moderate , because
36:17these campaigns exacerbate polarization
36:19, they always help to demonize certain
36:21segments of society . A classic populist
36:25strategy , right ? And with that , those
36:30who win aren't the centrist candidates ,
36:32but the more extreme candidates , those
36:33populists who know how to use these
36:35instruments , these digital marketing
36:37tools .
36:40And Pata , in the end , how do you see it
36:42? Because in journalism , there are few
36:45moments when we can see any reflection
36:47of the stories in the real world , right
36:48? How do you see the responses to all
36:53the work you've done , both from civil
36:55society and the justice system ? When
36:58the articles were published , they
36:59politicized the matter a lot , right ?
37:01Both sides , right ? The side of
37:04then-candidate Jair Bolsonaro , saying
37:06it was a lie and that I was this and
37:08that , and the other side clinging to
37:09that to try to change the election
37:11result . And at that moment , I think the
37:14authorities — I don't know exactly , I
37:16don't know how to interpret what
37:17happened — but the fact is that they
37:19didn't conduct searches and seizures ,
37:21they didn't break anyone's
37:22confidentiality . So , at that moment ,
37:24which was the moment they could have
37:25investigated , they didn't . And then , a
37:27coalition led by the PT and another by
37:29the PDT filed requests for
37:31investigation , they filed lawsuits in
37:32the TSE ( Superior Electoral Court ) ,
37:34which are four lawsuits that are still
37:36pending today , right ? But these
37:40lawsuits moved very slowly all this
37:42time until I think there was a moment
37:44after WhatsApp itself admitted it , and
37:45then two months later you had the TSE
37:47changing the rules , right ? So , these
37:53two were concrete results , and this
37:55coincided with a moment when I think
37:57Brazilian society , and also societies
37:59in other parts of the world , realized
38:01the potential for damage from
38:02disinformation campaigns , not only
38:04through WhatsApp , but through various
38:06means . So you had several things
38:08happening at the same time . You had the
38:10Parliamentary Commission of Inquiry
38:12into Fake News , which also began to
38:13uncover a lot of information . You had
38:15the Supreme Federal Court ( STF )
38:17investigations , without going into the
38:19merits of whether the investigation was
38:21correct or not . But these are things
38:23that began to investigate , reopening
38:24the process of evidence production at
38:26the Superior Electoral Court ( TSE ) . So
38:28those investigations that were
38:30completely paralyzed at least began to
38:32investigate because everyone had
38:33requested the production of evidence ,
38:36which is like : " Oh , we want you to
38:37interrogate people , break
38:39confidentiality , " etc. None of that had
38:41been done . So , in a way , I think there
38:44was a reflection , which is one of the
38:46few things in the fake news bill that
38:48is a settled point : prohibiting mass
38:50dissemination . So I think that had some
38:53effect . The problem is that with
38:55misinformation , you can plug one hole
38:57only to have another one come out ,
38:59right ? So maybe WhatsApp isn't such a
39:02big problem in this municipal election
39:04right now , but they'll find something
39:06else , right ? And there needs to be some
39:09kind of accountability for those who
39:11finance this type of campaign . It's not
39:14about criminalizing the average
39:15WhatsApp user , right ? But whoever is
39:19funding this kind of thing needs to be
39:20held accountable .
39:22This accountability isn't simple
39:24because it's a new and complex
39:26phenomenon that we don't understand ,
39:28and those who judge it don't understand
39:30either . Supreme Court Justice Luís
39:32Roberto Barroso , for example , even
39:34ordered WhatsApp to disclose all the
39:36boosted campaigns already done for the
39:38Bolsonaro-Mourão ticket , which , no
39:40matter how much goodwill the company
39:41had , would be impossible for the simple
39:44reason that WhatsApp doesn't boost
39:45anything . But the problem is even more
39:48complicated because the truth is that
39:50even those creating these technologies
39:51can't predict how they will unfold over
39:53time . Earlier this month , Twitter CEO
39:56Jack Dorsey gave an interview to the
39:59New York Times Daily podcast . Listen to
40:03the man's stammering when asked about
40:05Twitter's proposed solutions for
40:07dealing with smear campaigns , hate
40:09speech , and so on . " For me , it's a
40:17constant interaction , a constant
40:19pressure to be one step ahead of how
40:21people might use this negatively , deal
40:23with it , and then see the potential new
40:26negative uses . If we try to create a
40:29perfect system that , in quotes , solves
40:31the problem , we're going to do it wrong
40:33. Okay , but if a company like Cambridge
40:38Analytica can manipulate the data of
40:40millions of people to influence an
40:42election , can't these tech giants use
40:45the same brilliant algorithms to stop
40:47hate speech , smear campaigns , etc. ? The
40:52answer , once again , is complicated , but
40:54come with me , give me your hand , and
40:56we'll come out on the other side
40:58understanding everything a little
40:59better . At least I hope so . " Anyway , in
41:02this case , we have to start or continue
41:05talking about Cambridge Analytica . We
41:07even talked about it in previous
41:09episodes , about how brilliant it is ,
41:11how it studied thousands of data points
41:13on tens of millions of Americans for
41:15Trump . But to what extent was that
41:16really the case ? When Cambridge
41:19Analytica says , " I managed to elect
41:21Donald Trump , "
41:22Mariana Ana Valente from Internet Lab
41:24replies , it's
41:27also selling its service , talking about
41:28how powerful it is , and buying into
41:30that discourse without a bit more
41:32critical thinking is buying into its
41:34service . There are other fields doing
41:39research on political radicalization
41:41and associating it , for example , with
41:43increased inequality . So , I mean , it's
41:47a problem when we look at technology ,
41:50being excessively technocentric .
41:53It's that old story , if you only have a
41:55hammer , all your problems will look
41:57like nails . That being said ,
42:01this use of personal data , the
42:02profiling of people , the manipulation
42:05of emotions , is very frightening .
42:07And why don't we ask Uncle Marques
42:09Zuckerberg to create a great algorithm
42:11for good that brings peace to the
42:12networks ? One of the arguments that
42:15platforms most often bring up regarding
42:17the difficulty of moderation is the
42:18lack of context . Often , the use of a
42:21word in one context is fine , but in
42:23another context it's not . We recently
42:27conducted research at Internet Lab that
42:29analyzed an algorithm that analyzes
42:31hate speech , or rather , speech toxicity
42:33. The research looked at some drag
42:39queen profiles and found that in many
42:41cases , the drag queens ' speeches were
42:42considered more toxic than those of
42:44some white supremacists . And this had
42:49to do with the words they were using ,
42:51which is all about context , right ? For
42:54example , in Portuguese , you might say :
42:57" Ai , viado , " a word that in one context
43:00can be very toxic , but in another
43:01context , depending on who is speaking
43:03and to whom , can be a friendly way to
43:06say it . So , it's not simple for an
43:09algorithm to determine whether content
43:11is toxic or not , and the possibility of
43:13error is high . I know of some cases of
43:17anti-racist activists , for example , who
43:19were blocked because their content was
43:21considered racist , racist against white
43:23people . How do you solve this , right ?
43:26You have to solve it with more
43:28investment .
43:29And this investment , according to
43:30Mariana Valente , would have to be
43:32channeled into one of the most reliable
43:35machines we know : humans who spend
43:36hours in front of a computer analyzing
43:39countless complaints , work that
43:40consists of frequent contact with hate
43:43speech , torture videos , child
43:44pornography , murders , suicides , and
43:46everything else obscure that the human
43:48mind is capable of producing . And to
43:50complicate matters , this phenomenon
43:52happens on a global scale .
43:54There are many complaints in Brazil
43:56about the fact that platforms don't
43:57allow showing female nipples , right ?
44:00Many platforms . And the responses that
44:04often come are , " Oh , but we're in some
44:06countries where showing a shoulder is
44:08considered indecent , and we have to
44:10have a global rule . "
44:12In Brazil , this confusion between
44:14justice and companies , between what is
44:16possible and what is not , became very
44:18evident in that saga of the WhatsApp
44:20blockages ,
44:21which were done because WhatsApp
44:23wouldn't deliver content that WhatsApp
44:24didn't have .
44:26On the other hand ,
44:27if you want us to trust you , you have
44:29to give us reasons , right ? And we have
44:31to be able to audit your code . For
44:35example , last week I interviewed the
44:37CEO of WhatsApp for an event and I
44:38asked precisely this question : How are
44:40we going to know that it actually works
44:42the way you're saying it works if you
44:44don't make the code available to be
44:46audited ?
44:48And what did he say ? He said that they
44:52have transparency mechanisms today that
44:54they open up for specific audits and
44:56everything , but that they are committed
44:58to opening up the code more in the
44:59future .
45:02The answer then was tomorrow . Not today
45:04, but tomorrow we promise to improve .
45:07He committed . I think he committed
45:09publicly . That's great . We can hold him
45:12accountable . Facebook is very different
45:24from WhatsApp , which is very different
45:26from Forchan , but they all have in
45:27common the proximity between the person
45:29who produces the message and the person
45:31who receives it . Bolsonaro no longer
45:33needs Globo Network to talk to the
45:35people , he has Twitter . I mean , he has
45:39much more than Twitter . Over the last
45:45decade , with Carlucho at the helm , the
45:47Bolsonaro family has built a parallel
45:50communications empire with its own
45:52language : controversial , mocking , and
45:54politically incorrect , created in
45:56anonymous forums and Orkut communities ;
45:59its own content , inspired by American
46:01conspiracy theories , repackaged by the
46:04likes of Olavo de Carvalho ; and ,
46:06finally , its own medium , not composed
46:08of a fixed network like Globo or Fox
46:11News's affiliates . Instead , it's a
46:15mutant web spanning multiple platforms ,
46:17most clearly seen in WhatsApp messaging
46:20campaigns . First , organized groups
46:23initiate the message to be reproduced .
46:26Then , millions of supporters spread
46:27across the country continue to relay
46:29this message until it finally reaches
46:31that uncle you try to avoid at
46:33Christmas dinner . What's every
46:40politician's dream , right ? To be able
46:43to communicate directly with your
46:44supporters , your voters , without the
46:46media interfering . So , this thing about
46:50strengthening communication through
46:52social media , including using bots ,
46:55trolls , etc. , delegitimizes the
46:57traditional press . On the other hand ,
47:04since his election , Bolsonaro has
47:06received relentless treatment from a
47:08large part of the press . I would say
47:10it's the majority . The corruption
47:12scandals , the nefarious relationships
47:14with militias , the stupid statements ,
47:16the disregard for the deaths of more
47:18than 100,000 Brazilians have been
47:20repeated even by more conservative
47:21media outlets , such as Rede Globo and
47:23Estado de São Paulo . And what happens
47:26to the president's popularity ? It goes
47:30up . In fact , while I'm recording this
47:32podcast , it's at its highest point .
47:35Four out of ten Brazilians think Jair
47:37Bolsonaro's government is great or good
47:39, according to Datafolha . For those who
47:49have studied the subject , the increase
47:51in Bolsonaro's popularity is very much
47:53related to the R $ 600 emergency aid .
47:55This measure , which lifted many people
47:57out of poverty as if by magic , came to
47:59fruition mainly because of Congress .
48:02But the president , it seems , has
48:03managed to capitalize on this . I told
48:06part of this story here in episode 25 ,
48:08lessons from the coronavirus for the
48:10economy . In any case , beyond the aid
48:14since he was elected , Bolsonaro has a
48:17fixed , loyal base that has never been
48:19below 25 % . And this is intimately
48:25linked to this parallel communication
48:27system , which , in addition to all the
48:29characteristics I've already mentioned ,
48:31has one more that is perhaps the worst
48:33of all , the most hypocritical and the
48:35most difficult to confront .
48:38It's a form of communication that
48:39presents itself as anti-system . Mariana
48:42Valente .
48:43So I'm speaking to you , citizens , here
48:45directly on Twitter , because I don't
48:47need SECOM , I don't need to follow the
48:49bureaucratic rules of the state , I
48:51don't follow this system that only
48:52causes corruption and all that , right ?
48:56The cruelty of this stance is that the
48:58kickbacks in his son's office , the
49:00militia friends , the destruction of the
49:02Amazon , the genocidal inaction in the
49:03face of the pandemic , all of this is
49:05attributed to the system's conspiracies
49:07against the government .
49:11This is part of the election strategy
49:13and the constant mobilization of a
49:14segment of the electorate as a
49:16political strategy . A guy who spent so
49:21many years in the legislature , uh , all
49:24the things surrounding him , uh , that
49:26he's been accused of , but he manages to
49:28present himself as anti-establishment
49:30and convince people . Few sectors of
49:39Brazilian society can celebrate any
49:41progress under the Bolsonaro government
49:43. Deforestation in the Amazon grew by
49:4737 % last year . Gross domestic product
49:50fell by almost 10 % in the second quarter
49:52. The coronavirus pandemic remains out
49:54of control , but we don't even know the
49:56extent of the damage because there's no
49:58national testing standard , and even the
50:00data the government has is released in
50:02a confusing way . For some critics of
50:05Bolsonarism , the country is left to its
50:08own devices , without any plan , any
50:10project . On the other hand , perhaps the
50:13absence of a project is itself the
50:15project . Kenon's followers would
50:17certainly support this policy , and
50:19Olavo de Carvalho's followers are there
50:21supporting it .
50:23If there's anyone who's managing to
50:24carry out their project , it's Olavo ,
50:26right ?
50:27This is the journalist and writer Denis
50:29Russo Burgerman . If you listened to the
50:31last episode , you know he spent three
50:33months immersed in the
50:34pseudo-philosophy of conspiracy
50:35theorist Olavo de Carvalho .
50:37I don't think Bolsonaro has read his
50:38works . Bolsonaro , I don't think he's a
50:41person who reads books , but at least
50:43two of his sons considered him a great
50:45guru . Olavo said it was never his
50:49intention to influence the government .
50:52And I have no reason not to believe him
50:53on that point . I think it was never the
50:57center of his strategy to appoint
50:58ministers , for example . And what
51:02happened was that , probably , Eduardo
51:04called him and said : " Dude , we have to
51:06fight the culture war in the ministries
51:08, especially the Ministry of Education
51:10and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs . "
51:15Bolsonarism wanted the Olavo follower
51:17to occupy those positions , right ? Well ,
51:21I don't think Ernesto Araújo , Veles ,
51:24or Vintraub , who are ministers
51:26appointed by Olavo , were very close to
51:28Olavo . There's even a suspicion that
51:32Ernesto Araújo didn't think this way
51:34before . He just saw the opportunity . A
51:37little before Bolsonaro took office , he
51:39wrote the first text in which he
51:40reveals himself to be the Ernesto
51:42Araújo of today . But he had years and
51:43years at Itamaraty ( the Brazilian
51:45Ministry of Foreign Affairs ) before ,
51:46with a reputation for being discreet . I
51:47think we saw Bolsonarism rising to
51:49power and thought : " Man , this closeness
51:52with Olavo will be useful . " And Olavo
51:55has no idea who a good manager is . He's
51:59only focused on this culture war , this
52:01conspiracy theory . The enemy is
52:03cultural Marxism , there's no other
52:05problem in Brazil . That's the only
52:07problem . And so he appointed people he
52:10knew just because they were also , like
52:12him , furious against the power of the
52:13left that is dominating and oppressing
52:15Brazil . He is a very strong reference
52:21point for the most engaged wing of
52:23Bolsonarism , which is the wing that is
52:25very active on social media , especially
52:27on Twitter , but also on Facebook , and
52:29which nowadays we know is very much the
52:31barometer that the government uses to
52:32know if it's doing well or badly . They
52:37measure , to some extent , the approval
52:39of their administration through Twitter
52:41. And Olavo is very influential on
52:44these networks , not because he has many
52:46followers — Bolsonaro has many more
52:48followers than him — but because he is
52:50a figure who mobilizes people . He
52:52generates a lot of engagement , he
52:54cultivates this engagement , he spends
52:56the day on social media cultivating it .
52:59I think there must be many people who
53:01question this understanding , but the
53:02government understands that it is
53:04important to please this radical wing
53:06that follows Olavo . In general , the
53:09ministers he appointed have proven to
53:11be terrible managers , and you see that
53:13he continues to have the power to move
53:15pieces . It's a project that has nothing
53:27to do with public policies for Brazil .
53:29It's a project that only deals with
53:31this fictitious dimension of reality ,
53:33right ? With this conspiracy .
53:36The conspiracy is entrenched in the
53:38system , so the system has to be
53:40destroyed .
53:42It's a project that stems from the
53:44belief that all of Brazilian culture
53:46today is dominated by communists . And
53:49their project is to destroy this group
53:51that dominates . And so it's a project
53:55that's being carried out in several
53:57ministries , right ? Not only those that
54:00Olavo indicated , but the figure of
54:02Sales , for example . Sales is not the
54:04typical student of Olavo , far from it .
54:07Sales is not naive . He is not a guy who
54:09, as far as I know , believes in
54:11conspiracy theories . He is a guy who
54:13knows how to do business . He is a guy
54:15who works for the economic sectors that
54:17have power . But , you'll see what Sales '
54:20project is . It's the fight against
54:22cultural Marxism . It's , for example ,
54:24removing environmentalists from the
54:26Amazon , because environmentalists are
54:28guilty of environmental devastation .
54:32This is part of that conspiracy theory
54:34that basically says that all activism
54:37and all cultural influence is dominated
54:39by communists and that the only way to
54:41save Brazilian culture is by kind of
54:43destroying Brazilian culture , because
54:45it's dominated by communists . And so ,
54:59at the end of our short and disturbing
55:01journey through the depths of the
55:02internet , I arrive at the realization
55:04that , for me , is the most frightening
55:06of all . Because this language of
55:11violence , of political incorrectness ,
55:12of laughter in the face of the object ,
55:14which comes riddled with conspiracy
55:16theories and anti-establishment
55:17manifestos , was clearly one of the
55:19pillars for the political rise of the
55:21new right and Bolsonarism . It has also
55:23helped the government sustain itself in
55:25a strategy of keeping its base inflamed
55:27. But what's most frightening to me is
55:29that this language , in a way , has
55:31dictated the course of the government .
55:35The decision about using your tax money
55:37to build schools or nuclear submarines
55:39is being made based on the thinking of
55:41a sect of devotees of this strange
55:43extremist religion , who , unable to
55:45recognize their own image in the mirror
55:47, remain certain that the fanatics and
55:49extremists are the others . It's a
56:01strategy for maintaining power . And as
56:04this becomes a strategy for maintaining
56:06power , we are lost . Before putting an
56:17end to this three-episode series , I
56:20want to tell you , as usual , about
56:22Rádio Guarda-chuva , our collective of
56:24podcasts made by journalists . As you
56:26know , Budejo , Giro Latino , Penestante ,
56:29Vida de Jornalista , and Finitude are
56:31part of this network . And it's about
56:34this last one that I'm going to talk to
56:35you about today . Well , not me , but the
56:37presenter of Finitude , Juliana Dantas .
56:40Hi , Tomás . It's a pleasure to be here
56:43inside the Escafandro radio . And I
56:45wanted to invite listeners to follow us
56:47from here to Finitude to listen to our
56:49episode this week . It's the second
56:52chapter of the series How to Deal . This
56:55time , how to deal with someone who is
56:57depressed . It's a very open
57:00conversation about how each of us can
57:02play a role in supporting and guiding
57:04the relationship with a friend or
57:06relative who has been diagnosed with
57:08depression . Unfortunately , we know it's
57:11a topic that still suffers from a lot
57:13of prejudice , and this ends up being a
57:15second layer of pain on top of those
57:17who are already dealing with this
57:18mental health issue . So , what can we
57:21say or do ? What is best to avoid ? These
57:25are some of the points we start from in
57:27this week's episode of Finitude .
57:31There's a new episode every Tuesday on
57:33your favorite podcast player . Thank you
57:35. Kisses to you . Now , this concludes
57:42the 33rd episode of Escafandro . The
57:45soundtrack and theme of our episode is
57:47by Paulo Gama . Sound mixing by Víor
57:50Coroa . I am Tomás Queini , and I
57:53conceived , produced , edited , and did
57:55the sound design for this episode .
57:58Thank you for listening , and until the
58:00next dive in 15 days .