Full transcript
0:00Hi .
0:02Rádio Guarda-Chuva . Journalism for
0:04those who like to listen .
0:09At the time , I identified with some of
0:12those patterns , behaviors , and thoughts
0:14. I even joke that today I am a
0:17recovering perfectionist . Uh ,
0:21this is psychologist , professor , and
0:23researcher at the Federal University of
0:25Minas Gerais , Marcela Mansur Alves .
0:29Marcela told me that she always knew
0:31she was too hard on herself , but that
0:33she saw it as a positive trait . I
0:38understood that the pressure was a
0:40driving force that made me pursue my
0:43goals with more discipline , dedication ,
0:47and engagement .
0:51And this way of presenting yourself to
0:53the world is one of the most common and
0:54current . The standard answer to the
0:58classic job interview question , " Tell
1:00me one of your flaws , " is : " I'm too
1:02perfectionistic . " And yes , this answer
1:05is almost always a lie , but that
1:08doesn't make it any less important ,
1:10less significant , or less emblematic of
1:13our time . Think carefully about how
1:16it's usually stated . " I'm too
1:19perfectionistic . " I mean , the problem
1:23is in the amount . After all , everything
1:26in excess ends up being bad , even a
1:28head scratch . Which implies that
1:32perfectionism isn't exactly a flaw , but
1:35the truth is that perfectionism has a
1:37cost that is not small . And then came
1:43this cost , the weight of this pressure
1:46reaching the point of total exhaustion ,
1:49an emotional burnout resulting from
1:52this constant need to do everything in
1:55the best way , everything right . So I
2:00started making choices that deprived me
2:03, for example , of moments of rest ,
2:05leisure , you know , of spending time
2:07with loved ones and hobbies or other
2:10things . you know , to overinvest myself
2:14there in work .
2:15And gradually this personality trait
2:17began to invade other areas of her life
2:19,
2:20my relationships with family , with
2:23peers , with friends and boyfriends ,
2:25romantic relationships , girlfriends ,
2:28anyway .
2:30Marcela told me that the level of
2:31perfectionism reached the point where
2:33she sometimes felt paralyzed .
2:35That started to happen . I think there
2:39was also an increase in anxiety spikes
2:41and all the behaviors that come with
2:43that anxiety , right , which even
2:45involves , at times , a certain
2:47procrastination in some things . So , " Oh
2:50, can you apply for this ? " " Oh , I don't
2:52want to , right ? " Because applying for
2:54that implies that I'll have to dedicate
2:56myself more , I'll have to invest more ,
2:58and I'm already exhausted .
3:00But was it , was it because of the
3:02exhaustion or was it because of this
3:03feeling that I think is common to
3:05perfectionists ? extremes like that ,
3:08from what I've been reading , which is
3:10that you think it's so impossible to
3:12reach perfection , that it's better not
3:15to even try , right ?
3:16Why should I start something I know I
3:19won't achieve ? It's too costly . I think
3:24for me it was much more the fear of
3:26failing and what failure meant .
3:32Understanding that failure would say
3:34once again that I was a worse person ,
3:36you know , that I had less value . And I
3:39think that scared me . Marcela Mansur
3:49told me that this only changed about 10
3:51years ago when she was invited to
3:54co-advise a postgraduate project at
3:56UFMG that was related to perfection .
3:59It was by studying . It was only later
4:01that I named it , so I think that was
4:04important . I brought it to my therapy
4:09and started to identify the negative
4:12effects hidden behind this image , this
4:15mask , perhaps , of it being something
4:18that brings me or leads me to success ,
4:21to being who I am , right ? From then on ,
4:30besides taking care of her own
4:32perfectionism , Marcela Mansur Alves
4:34dedicated a good part of her academic
4:35career to understanding this subject .
4:39Today she has a PhD in neuroscience , a
4:41postdoctoral degree in psychology , and
4:43is the coordinator of a laboratory at
4:44UFMG dedicated to studying different
4:46human personality traits . And at this
4:53moment , you , listening to me while
4:55washing your dishes in a methodically
4:57organized way , glasses first , pots last
4:59, turning off the faucet at the right
5:00time , building stacks in the drying
5:02rack that would make Oscar Niemeyer
5:04blush , might be feeling some
5:05identification with Professor Marcela .
5:09And I dare say that with that
5:11identification comes a certain pride .
5:14It's not just in job interviews that
5:16perfectionism appears as the sweetest
5:18of flaws . But those who study the
5:21subject see things differently . And
5:24more and more researchers understand
5:26that perfectionism is one of the most
5:28pernicious personality traits . For
5:32American psychologist Thomas Greenspon ,
5:35for example , the idea of healthy
5:37perfectionism is an oxymoron , like " up
5:39down " or " happy sadness . " For American
5:43psychologist Aser Past as well ,
5:45perfectionism is a malignant trait of a
5:48neurotic , a psychopathology . I'm Tomás
6:01Kiaverini and episode 164 of Escafandro
6:04has already begun . In it , we are going
6:08to talk about our eternal search for a
6:10full life that never arrives . About the
6:12imposition of unattainable standards ,
6:14about the artificial happiness of
6:15social media , about a source of
6:17psychological suffering that is sold as
6:19the pinnacle of human existence . We are
6:22going to talk about perfectionism .
6:27Before that , I need to remind you that
6:30Escafandro is proudly funded by a group
6:32of bright people who support the
6:34podcast financially . In addition to
6:36keeping the podcast on the air for 7
6:37years , this group of listeners is
6:39entitled to a series of perks . They can
6:41listen to episodes a day early , have
6:43their names mentioned here , and
6:45depending on the subscription level ,
6:47they get an Escafandro mug or an
6:49autographed book . So , if you like the
6:52podcast , want it to grow , multiply , and
6:54reach an ever-larger audience , come
6:56support our project . The fastest way to
7:00do this is via Pix using the email
7:02address apoiadores@radioescafandro.com .
7:09By the way , you can also use this email
7:11to talk to us .
7:13Apoie@radioescafandro.com . Besides that
7:18, there are several other ways to
7:19participate in our crowdfunding . If you
7:22want to see all of them or learn more
7:24about the rewards for supporters , just
7:26go to our website radioescafandro.com ,
7:29find the " support " tab , and everything
7:31is explained there . Finally , if you are
7:35already among the bright people who
7:37support the podcast , folks like Kira
7:39Rodriguez , Daniela Amália , Rafael Curi
7:41, and Mateus Pinho Bernardes , thank you
7:44so much — truly , thank you very much
7:46for that . Before you leave the dishes
7:54half-washed and go cry in the bathroom ,
7:56I’ll tell you that it's very likely
7:57we aren't talking exactly about you .
8:00Washing dishes with care , doing things
8:02with attention to detail , is not in
8:04itself a sign of perfectionism .
8:07Looking at perfectionists , I’m not
8:09saying these people seek to do things
8:12well , right , simply because they like
8:15doing things well . That’s the
8:18difference , isn't it ? Perfectionists
8:20have very high , uncompromising , and
8:23rigid personal standards . They are
8:26extremely self-critical , and they do
8:29all of this because they believe their
8:32personal value depends on it . So the
8:35problem , the issue , isn't about not
8:37seeking quality in what I do , or not
8:39wanting to be better , or not wanting to
8:41do the best possible . The problem lies
8:43in the psychological dependence on
8:46external approval and validation . A
8:49quote from the book The Perfection Trap
8:52by British psychologist Thomas Curran ,
8:54read by Priscila Pastre . By the way ,
8:57whenever you hear Pri’s voice in this
8:59episode , you know it’s an excerpt
9:01from Thomas Curran’s book , The
9:03Perfection Trap .
9:05Perfectionism is not about perfecting
9:07things or tasks , nor about striving to
9:10achieve especially high standards in
9:12your tasks , appearances , parenting , or
9:14relationships . This is very , very
9:18profound . It’s all about perfecting
9:21ourselves , or , to be more precise ,
9:24perfecting our imperfect selves . Going
9:27through life in defensive mode , hiding
9:29all the flaws , failures , and
9:31shortcomings from the people around us .
9:37At this moment , we arrive at an
9:39especially interesting point in our
9:41story , because this psychological
9:43definition of perfectionism has a
9:45parallel with the philosophical
9:47definition of the concept of perfection
9:49. I talked about this with the
9:52journalist , social scientist , writer ,
9:55therapist , and professor Luiz Mauro S.
9:57Martino .
9:58Hi Tomás , how are you ?
9:59I'm fine ,
10:00doing great . I hear you , I'm listening .
10:02Can you see me ? Luiz recently published
10:04the book " No One is Perfect . " How to
10:06let go of the illusion of a perfect
10:08life , respect your own limits , and
10:10become who you are .
10:11I can see you . The audio is good , the
10:14image is good .
10:15Perhaps you remember Luiz Mauro San
10:17Martino from one of our most
10:18listened-to episodes , " The Entropy of
10:19Hours . " I have to say I was especially
10:23surprised when you say in the book that
10:25this model of perfection we're used to
10:28thinking about when we talk about
10:30perfection only came about in modernity
10:32, right ? And then you talk about Greece
10:34, and so on . And I was thinking about
10:36Plato , right , that we have this idea of
10:38the Platonic world , etc.
10:40Yes .
10:41Tell me a little about that . What are
10:42the similarities , the differences ? What
10:44can we say about this beginning of the
10:46history of perfection and how it
10:48reaches the present day ? So , Luiz ,
10:51if we think about going back to
10:52philosophy , specifically to Plato ,
10:55which is where you started , right ? The
10:58idea of perfection that exists in
11:01ancient Greek thought was not placed
11:04first as an obligation for mortals , nor
11:07second as a possibility for mortals . It
11:12was understood that the world where we
11:15live , the real world , is an imperfect
11:17world , where things corrupt , not in the
11:20sense of corruption as we know it today
11:23, but corrupting in the sense that
11:26things transform , they decay , and they
11:28end . In contrast to a world that was by
11:33nature imperfect , Plato brings the idea
11:37of a perfect world . But this perfect
11:42world is not a real world ; it is
11:44precisely the world he calls the realm
11:47of ideas , of forms — something so ideal
11:50, so beautiful , and so perfect that it
11:53does not and cannot exist in a world of
11:56corruptible things . Luiz explained to
12:00me that this is why the Greeks , or at
12:02least some of them , had such an
12:04appreciation for mathematics , because
12:06mathematical beauty is perfect and
12:08incorruptible . A triangle will always
12:10have three sides and the sum of its
12:12internal angles will always be 180
12:14degrees . But then the idea was that
12:16only geometry . And then Plato expands
12:20it with a Pythagorean basis as well for
12:22music , for pure mathematical proportion
12:24, the musical geometry of perfection
12:26gave us a brief glimpse of perfection .
12:30So , in the Greek universe , the idea of
12:32perfection was not placed as a point
12:34for us mortals ,
12:36but the Greeks had another concept that
12:38was similar to what we understand as
12:40perfection today , but which also had
12:42important differences that finally lead
12:44to the parallel with Marcela Mansur
12:46Alves ' explanation , the idea of virtue ,
12:49the idea that you cannot be perfect ,
12:51but that is not an excuse for you not
12:53to try to improve . So I find this game
12:57very interesting , which was done by
12:59placing perfection on another plane ,
13:02but saying that you have something they
13:04called arete , virtue , the cultivation
13:07of the best you can be .
13:09It's a constant attempt , right , to
13:11improve , right ?
13:12Exactly .
13:13To head toward this perfection that
13:15never arrives . Right ?
13:16Exactly . Because the idea of virtue ,
13:18virtue nowadays has also changed its
13:20meaning a lot . For us , virtue has a lot
13:22to do with goodness , being nice , and
13:24that’s not wrong , but the meaning of
13:26virtue is strength , power . I exercise
13:29virtue when I try to be the best at
13:31what I can be . But look , it’s not the
13:34ideal best , it’s the best within the
13:37condition I have . So it is a constant
13:40exercise . We could even call it
13:43improvement and effort , but not with a
13:45view toward perfection , with a view
13:47toward improving what can be improved .
13:50And not everything can be improved .
13:57And so , how did we arrive at the
13:59current concept of perfection , Luiz ?
14:01Tell us a little about that , please .
14:04Well , taking a brief leap of 2,000 - some
14:06years , which will certainly scandalize
14:08my philosopher friends and my historian
14:10friends . You see , I’m going to end
14:13the recording basically with only a few
14:15friends in some areas .
14:16Paleontologists think it’s fine , that
14:182,000 years is nothing .
14:19That’s true . The archaeology folks
14:21might still keep following me on social
14:22media .
14:22No , it’s no problem , it makes no
14:24difference .
14:25So , taking that leap , what happens with
14:28modernity ? Since we are talking about
14:30human sciences , not mathematics , things
14:33are far from being exact or perfect and
14:35we can't pin down a date for the start
14:37of modernity . But Luís is talking
14:39about something like 300 years ago ,
14:41something that began in the Renaissance
14:43and extends to the present day .
14:45What happens ? Basically , the idea of
14:47perfection comes down to Earth . It
14:49means the new concept of the human
14:52being that appears at that time will
14:55largely work on the idea that this
14:57human being can reach something very
15:00close to this perfection .
15:03And here it is important to add a side
15:05note , that we are mainly talking about
15:07European culture , which is the one that
15:09has the most influence on the formation
15:11of our Western world .
15:12Because these ideas have no date , but
15:14they have a very well-defined geography
15:16. Anyway ,
15:18this human being appropriated
15:20capacities that were until then
15:23considered divine , and he can do that .
15:27Of course , this has a wonderful first
15:29moment , which is the idea of the
15:31Enlightenment , of having the courage to
15:33use your own reason , as Kant , an
15:34emblematic philosopher of that era ,
15:36reminds us .
15:36But
15:37what is the side effect ? The idea that
15:39the human being can be perfect and that
15:42by using our capacity , our reason , our
15:45strengths , we can reach this perfection
15:47.
15:48And then it arrives , capitalism .
15:51Something else happens at this moment ,
15:53Tomás , the industrial revolution .
15:54Uh-huh . And so we start to have a model
15:58of society where being good isn't
16:01enough ; I need to be the best . Being
16:04the best isn't enough , because I have
16:06to beat my competitor . And shortly
16:08after , the movement continues . It's not
16:10enough to be the best , you have to be
16:11perfect . I have to win in the
16:13industrial revolution . I mean , we have
16:20two basic matrices that form the
16:22current concept of perfection . One of
16:24philosophical origin , the other of
16:26material origin , shaped by the emerging
16:28capitalist system . At this moment , you ,
16:35my listener , must be wondering how to
16:38separate what is virtue , effort , or
16:40diligence from what is perfectionism ?
16:44How do researchers manage to understand
16:46and diagnose something as subjective as
16:48a human personality ? I asked Marcela
16:50Mansur Alves about this , who
16:52coordinates a laboratory dedicated to
16:54doing exactly that . And the answer was
16:57one of the most interesting .
17:00We can access this , for example ,
17:02through an interview , through behavior
17:04observation , but commonly we use tools
17:07that in the field of psychology we know
17:09as psychological tests . And we do this
17:14through what we call self-report
17:16measures .
17:17This self-report is generally done in
17:19the form of a questionnaire with
17:21questions machiavellically thought out
17:22and improved over the decades . You will
17:26tell me , right , how you function in
17:28different aspects , how extroverted you
17:31are , how conscientious , responsible ,
17:33organized , uh , empathetic , generous ,
17:36open to experiences , susceptible to
17:38negative emotions , right , anxious . So ,
17:42you’re going to tell me what you’re
17:44like ,
17:45right ? But what if the person goes
17:46there and lies from start to finish ?
17:48People can lie , especially in
17:50situations where they are being
17:52evaluated . It's more common to have
17:54what we call lying or response bias ,
17:56right , in an evaluation context where
17:58the person has something to lose or
18:00gain from it . So , oh , I’m in court ,
18:03right , so lying there might be in my
18:06interest , or I’m applying for a job ,
18:09right ,
18:10see , my only flaw is being too much of
18:12a perfectionist , right ?
18:13We say " lying , " but that's not the best
18:15way to put it , because the person isn't
18:16always conscious of it . That’s what I
18:19was going to ask , because I think
18:21everyone has a view of themselves that
18:23is almost never the exact view , right ?
18:26Actually , I think one of the great
18:27pains of being human is not knowing how
18:29people actually see you , right ? And I
18:32think everyone thinks they're a little
18:34different than they actually are , right
18:35? And I think that varies as well ,
18:37doesn't it ? So I wonder to what extent
18:40you can conduct a survey that is
18:42self-reported and account for those
18:45biases , as you mentioned , more
18:47elegantly than just lies .
18:50We have strategies , many of them
18:53basically analytical , right ?
18:56Finally , the Machiavellian part , dear
18:57listener ,
18:58there are construction strategies as
18:59well . We can build instruments that
19:02reduce the possibility of response bias
19:05, right ? One of the examples Marcela
19:08gave me was to invert the pole of the
19:10question , taking a positive item and
19:12asking it as if it were negative , or
19:14vice versa . A question about
19:17sociability , for example , you could ask
19:19: " Do you find it easy to work in a
19:21group ? " This will automatically create
19:23a confirmation bias . Everyone wants to
19:26be sociable , right ? But what if the
19:28question is , do you prefer to complete
19:29tasks alone ?
19:30And then we compare these response
19:32patterns . That's why the best-developed
19:37tests have a larger number of items ,
19:40because then I can capture that
19:43regularity in your answer and ,
19:46depending on the context , estimate the
19:49probability that you aren't being
19:52totally honest .
19:55Lastly , you can always do a cross-check
19:57. We also ask for the perceptions of
20:01people who are acquaintances , people
20:03who have some intimacy , so that we can
20:06often corroborate a perception the
20:08person themselves has or get other
20:10sources of information about that
20:13individual's behavior . So , while I was
20:21listening to Marcela's explanation , a
20:23question kept echoing in my head ,
20:26which is the question of how innate
20:28perfectionism really is , right ? Because
20:32we know that humans are biocultural
20:33beings , right ? We have a mix of what
20:35we're born with and culture , right ? And
20:43I have a son , and when we have children
20:45, we get to follow this personality
20:47that we imagine is forming in this
20:49little person , but I joke that they
20:51already come with the drive , with the
20:53software installed , right , and they're
20:55just getting updates , right ? And I
20:58think it's curious that we see their
20:59little friends growing up too , and how
21:01children have such strong personalities
21:03from a young age , right ? My son , for
21:05example , has a trait of perfectionism
21:07related to organization ; he's always
21:09liked things organized . Even if it's an
21:12organization that has nothing to do
21:13with ours , so , an organization that we
21:15often think is a mess , but it has to be
21:16his mess , right ? So that little mess
21:18there , he's tidying up the mess his way
21:20, and if one little thing is out of
21:22place , he gets angry , and so on . But
21:24I've seen this perfectionism trait in
21:26him since he was very little , you know ?
21:28So that's what I wanted to ask you . To
21:30what extent is this with us ? To what
21:33extent is this molded by society , and
21:35to what extent can we tell what is one
21:37thing and what is another ? You know ?
21:41That question is very deep , right ?
21:43Because we could follow many paths here
21:45, right ? I think I'll start by telling
21:49you that today we also know there are
21:51some personality characteristics that
21:53are present from the moment we are born
21:56, right ? So we usually call it
21:58temperament when they're babies , right ?
22:01And then later we follow that and think
22:03, but where did it come from , right ?
22:06Because it was already there ; there are
22:09studies in the field of individual
22:11personality differences that , through
22:13designs of children , uh , adoptive
22:16families , biological families ,
22:18comparing monozygotic and dizygotic
22:20twins , adoptive siblings , and
22:22biological siblings , that can already
22:24tell us that there are some personality
22:27characteristics that are with us from
22:29the moment we are born . Of course ,
22:34these patterns go through many updates ,
22:36as you called them , right ? And this
22:39ends up being built or developed in
22:41parallel with our other functions ,
22:43right ? So , the more we develop our
22:47cognition , right , the more verbal
22:49repertoire we have , and the more we can
22:53manifest behaviors in a less physical
22:55and more abstract way . Sorry to
22:59interrupt , but this is a truly
23:00fascinating subject . I mean , we have
23:02some characteristics that are more
23:04innate than others .
23:06Yes . So , if you ask , regarding
23:08personality , what is typically more
23:11innate ? Well , we usually refer to a
23:14proposal that exists in the field of
23:16personality study , in personality
23:18psychology , which is what we call the
23:21five-factor model , right ? Right ? So
23:23these are five broad characteristics ,
23:26right , that have been investigated in
23:28many cultures , have quite a bit of
23:30consistency in cross-cultural research ,
23:33and are studied in childhood , adulthood
23:36, and adolescence . So , we know that
23:38these characteristics have a very
23:40strong contribution from our biology .
23:43You are born with them , right , and they
23:46provide an initial framework . Then , of
23:53course , I asked Marcela to explain to
23:55me what each of these five
23:56characteristics are that psychologists
23:58have used to define our personality .
24:02She started by telling me about
24:04extraversion ,
24:06a tendency to be more gregarious , more
24:09sociable , to have more positive
24:11emotions , and to seek more sensations .
24:15Marcela explained that we have to think
24:17of these five characteristics as levels
24:19. Everyone has all five at different
24:22levels . In the case of extraversion ,
24:24for example , one person might have a
24:26level above average and another a level
24:28below average , which would make them an
24:30introverted person . Following
24:34extraversion , she spoke about
24:36agreeableness .
24:39When we are talking about agreeableness
24:41, we are talking about generosity ,
24:43about empathy . We are talking about a
24:47sharper perception of others , including
24:49others , and attention toward others ,
24:51right ?
24:52Then there is conscientiousness .
24:55Conscientiousness has to do with a
24:58tendency to be very disciplined ,
25:00competent , organized , and to have
25:03greater behavioral control . You were
25:06talking about your son ; he is probably
25:08a more conscientious child .
25:10Next , she told me about openness .
25:13Openness has to do with flexibility in
25:16the sense of having a tendency to
25:18explore the new , the different , and
25:21being more inclined to value , right ,
25:24and try to appreciate human experiences
25:27in depth .
25:28And finally , there is neuroticism .
25:30It is a tendency , a greater
25:32susceptibility to negative emotions —
25:35sadness , anxiety , fear , worry — who are
25:38also more susceptible to stress , right ?
25:42to stressful events , right , they
25:43dysregulate more easily because it's a
25:46system that is closely related to our
25:48protection from danger , from threats ,
25:50right ?
25:53And then , again , everyone is born with
25:56these five characteristics at different
25:58levels .
26:00So , I can be a person who has high
26:02extraversion , but low neuroticism . I
26:05could have both be high . You would
26:07probably be a drummer in a band of a
26:13drummer in a rock band that didn't make
26:15it . Maybe if you had both high , right ?
26:19Yeah , I have any possibility of
26:21combination , right ? If we use
26:24combinatorial and mathematical analysis
26:26, right ? We would be talking about
26:29multiple combinations , because I have
26:30five traits with two poles . That's if
26:32I'm only looking at the two poles ,
26:34right ? But I also have people who are
26:36in the middle , you know , those people
26:39who are more balanced , and we have the
26:41super extremes . But as Marcela
26:45explained to me , this is just our
26:47initial configuration . Throughout life ,
26:50we are shaped by the environment and
26:52these levels change according to each
26:53person's experience .
26:54We don't know where we'll end up , but
26:56we know more or less where we started
26:57from , right ?
26:58Exactly . And our personality keeps
27:00developing , right ? as we interact with
27:03our multiple environments .
27:06When we talk about perfectionism , it
27:08can fit into these five characteristics
27:10in different ways . For example , if I'm
27:14a child with a tendency toward high
27:16conscientiousness and high neuroticism ,
27:19I am most likely more vulnerable to
27:22developing high levels of perfectionism
27:25if I encounter an environment that is
27:27critical and has many expectations ,
27:30right ? sometimes unrealistic
27:33expectations about my own performance .
27:36If that environment only values my
27:39results , then , if that environment
27:43links affection to achieving results , I
27:47learn that my personal value is
27:50determined by what I achieve , by my
27:53results . Besides varying in levels from
28:03person to person , perfectionism also
28:05varies by type . In the book The
28:08Perfectionism Trap , Thomas Curran uses
28:10a model that talks about three forms of
28:12perfectionism .
28:14Do you agree with this way of them
28:16categorizing perfectionism ? Do you
28:18think it's an interesting model for us
28:19to think about ?
28:20It is one of the most cited and studied
28:22models in scientific literature , right ?
28:25Marcela explained to me that this model
28:27follows that same maxim as the
28:28personalities . Everyone has levels of
28:30these three forms of perfectionism .
28:32These levels vary in intensity . The
28:38first form of perfectionism is
28:40self-oriented .
28:42I have high , inflexible , rigid
28:44standards for myself , and I criticize
28:46myself , I push myself , and I impose
28:49these personal demands . So , it's me
28:52with myself . The second type is
28:54certainly the worst to live with ,
28:56because it is oriented toward others .
28:58Me in relation to others ; I want the
29:01other person to be perfect . I expect
29:04the other person not to fail , I expect
29:06the other person not to make mistakes .
29:08And finally , we have socially
29:10prescribed perfectionism .
29:12There is a perception by the individual
29:14that others expect perfect performance
29:17from them , a perfect result , that they
29:19must be perfect . That is , that they
29:21must not make mistakes . So it is from
29:23the other to me .
29:25And so , after this series of delightful
29:27definitions , we finally reach the core
29:30point of our deep dive , which has to do
29:32with the impacts of perfectionism on
29:34our mental health . And we are
29:36increasingly understanding that they
29:39are devastating . Research has shown
29:42high levels of correlation between
29:44perfectionism and mental disorders ,
29:46such as anxiety , depression , anorexia ,
29:49and suicidal ideation . Of course , we
29:53cannot say with total certainty , right ?
29:57It isn't just an anxious pattern that
29:59is causing your perfectionism or the
30:01other way around , is it ? But what we
30:08know from studies using very complex
30:10models testing , well , complex models ,
30:13is that there is a great burden of
30:16suffering that comes with this
30:18excessive pressure , this rigid standard
30:21, this high bar . Causal relationships
30:25are always harder to establish ,
30:27especially when we are talking about
30:29human behavior . The classic example of
30:32this problem is the idea that wine is
30:34good for your health , which is probably
30:35false . People who drink wine likely
30:38have better health because they earn
30:40more , have less stress , tend to take
30:41better care of themselves , and sleep
30:43better . But in the case of
30:45perfectionism , researchers have found
30:47some clues of causality . One of them
30:50was in treating people with eating
30:52disorders .
30:54We increase the probability of
30:55intervention efficacy for , for example ,
30:57eating disorders when we consider
30:59perfectionism . In other words , it helps
31:01patients with eating disorders ; we
31:03begin to understand that there is
31:04something at the root of the eating
31:06disorder , which isn't the same for
31:08everyone , right ? But there are many
31:10people who are perfectionists within
31:12this group . So we see that there is
31:16this very strong , very consistent
31:18relationship with intense suffering ,
31:20suicidal ideation , high levels of
31:23hopelessness , depression , anxiety ,
31:25burnout , and obsessive-compulsive
31:27disorder . So , perfectionists tend to
31:31suffer not only from clinical
31:33conditions but also other consequences
31:35of their perfectionism , such as
31:37emotional exhaustion and a sense of
31:39being completely overwhelmed , right ?
31:43Overwhelmed in relationships ,
31:44overwhelmed at work , overwhelmed in
31:46their studies . A perfectionist has a
31:50greater tendency toward what we call
31:52workaholism , which is an
31:53over-investment in work as the only
31:56meaning in life , right ? And there's a
31:59bigger problem when we talk about the
32:01correlation between psychological
32:02distress and perfectionism . Quoting
32:05Thomas Curran . People with a high
32:08degree of perfectionism rarely seek
32:10help to treat mental health problems or
32:12go to therapy . They bury their problems
32:15as deep as possible , treat them as if
32:18they never existed , and rely even more
32:20on their perfectionism as a way to keep
32:23things in order . I think this point you
32:26bring up about eating disorders is
32:29especially interesting , because an
32:31eating disorder starts from an issue
32:34that is like a slice of perfectionism
32:37in a specific area of life , right ?
32:39Because we're talking about an image
32:41issue , aren't we ?
32:41Uh-huh . Yes .
32:42I want a thin body , right ? Which is an
32:45unattainable body , related to an
32:47idealized thinness .
32:48Uh-huh .
32:49It's as if we took a metonymy of
32:51perfection , right ? You take a little
32:53snippet here and then you understand
32:55the person's entire personality based
32:56on that trait , right ? It's quite
32:58interesting to think about this moment
33:00I really wanted to reach with you ,
33:02which is this era of social media ,
33:04where everyone is exuding perfection
33:06online , right ?
33:07Exactly . So , today , social media is a
33:12way of propagating our culture's values
33:15, and we see an idealized identity ,
33:18only successful people , right ? In
33:23various fields of life , we have a huge
33:25tendency on social media to exacerbate ,
33:28right , to intensify . Gradually , this
33:32idea of perfection ends up spreading
33:34throughout society , creating the idea
33:37that it's never enough . There will
33:40always be that extra mile for you to go
33:43, that extra kilo to lose , that , I
33:44don't know the expression , but that
33:46modification on your face that you need
33:49to do , one more
33:51facial harmonization , Luiz . Facial
33:53harmonization .
33:54Why ? The order of the day in modernity
33:57is victory . And to have victory , I have
33:59competition . So I need to win . But
34:01winning today isn't enough . I need to
34:03win today and win tomorrow . It still
34:05won't be enough . There will always be a
34:08quite complex motivation that will try
34:10to drive me forward in the direction of
34:13a perfection that never arrives .
34:21Perfection never arrives because
34:23perfection does not exist . It is a
34:25mirage , yet research shows that more
34:27and more people are chasing this mirage
34:30. Marcela Mansur told me about a study
34:32that looked at levels of perfectionism
34:34in several countries over the last 30
34:36years . And there is a growing trend ,
34:39especially regarding this element which
34:42is socially prescribed perfectionism ,
34:44Tomás , which has a lot to do with this
34:46perception that others always expect
34:48perfect results from me , that I don't
34:50make mistakes , that I don't fail , that
34:53I am successful . This aspect , in
34:56particular , has increased a lot , hasn't
34:58it ? Which leads us to think that there
35:02is an effect from our culture , from our
35:04society , from social and cultural
35:07aspects we have been experiencing over
35:09the last 30 years , that help us
35:12understand how harmful this is .
35:16When we look at the growth of
35:18perfectionism over these last 30 years ,
35:20we notice that it has intensified in
35:22the last decade . In fact , there is one
35:26year that is especially significant . It
35:29was the year that perfectionism ,
35:31especially socially prescribed
35:32perfectionism , skyrocketed . 2008 . And
35:36if we look at the tech world , two
35:38important things happened at that time .
35:41In 2007 , Apple launched the iPhone , the
35:44father of all smartphones , which
35:46definitively brought social media into
35:48our pockets . And by 2008 , Facebook put
35:52an advertising executive as the COO , as
35:54the person in charge of the company's
35:57day-to-day operations . In practice ,
36:00this caused Facebook to change its
36:01ultimate goal . It stopped being a
36:04network that connected people who knew
36:06each other to become an advertising
36:09platform . And so it started doing what
36:15advertisers do : selling an ideal world ,
36:18a perfect world . The problem is that ,
36:24unlike a billboard , a TV commercial , or
36:26a magazine ad , this perfect world
36:28started to be sold all the time . And
36:32those who study mental health saw
36:33another important curve skyrocket in
36:352008 , that of depression and suicide
36:41among young people . There is a tendency
36:47for social media to be a propagator of
36:49this cultural ideal , right , focused on
36:52performance ? That message we receive
36:56like : " you can do anything , you can be
36:58anything as long as you are
36:59extraordinary , because if you are not
37:01extraordinary , you are a failure , you
37:03are automatically a failure , " right ? In
37:092021 , a former Facebook product manager
37:11named Frances Haugen leaked to the
37:13press the conclusions of an internal
37:15study that aimed to understand the
37:16impact of Instagram on the mental
37:18health of teenagers . The results of
37:21this study were so problematic that the
37:23company decided to shelve the research ,
37:25which only came to light because of a
37:27leak . The survey showed that
37:30approximately half of Instagram users
37:31felt the platform increased the
37:33pressure on them to be perfect . 40 % felt
37:36the social network increased their fear
37:39of not being attractive , rich , or
37:41popular enough . And 30 % of British
37:44teenagers told researchers that
37:46spending time on the platform was a
37:49reason they felt suicidal . Houses ,
37:54trips , cars , workout plans , beauty
37:57products , diets , parenting tips , life
37:59coaches , productivity hacks . We are
38:04living inside a hologram of
38:05unattainable perfection , with the
38:08imperative to constantly update our
38:10lives and lifestyles in search of a
38:12flawless nirvana that does not exist .
38:25This epidemic of perfectionism has
38:27mainly affected young people , which is
38:29not exactly a surprise , but the numbers
38:32are staggering . A 2016 study in the UK
38:36showed that 71 % of girls aged 17 to 21
38:39felt the need to be perfect . This
38:43figure represented a sharp increase . 5
38:46years earlier , it was 23 % , which
38:49represented a rise of 165 % . To make
38:54matters worse , among the three types of
38:56perfectionism , the one growing the
38:58fastest is socially prescribed
38:59perfectionism . This scenario is the
39:02worst possible , because socially
39:03prescribed perfectionism is the one
39:05that most impacts mental health . People
39:07with this type of perfectionism often
39:10report high degrees of loneliness , fear
39:13of the future , a need for approval ,
39:16poor-quality relationships , rumination ,
39:19melancholy , self-harm , worse physical
39:22health , low life satisfaction , and
39:25chronically low self-esteem .
39:28People with high levels of socially
39:30prescribed perfectionism also suffer
39:32more from depression , anxiety , and
39:34suicidal ideation . In the book "
39:41Ninguém é perfeito " ( Nobody is Perfect
39:43) , Luís Mauro Sartino raises a very
39:45interesting question that has to do
39:46with the idea of normality . What
39:50happens to this idea in a world where
39:52faces are automatically filtered ,
39:53bodies are permanently sculpted by
39:55lighting , makeup , and editing software ,
39:57and successes are propagated and
39:59rewarded with likes and shares , while
40:01failures are hidden under the worn
40:03blankets of the real world . Luís , I
40:08wanted you to talk a little about three
40:10concepts you discuss in the book that
40:12intertwine : the idea of standard ,
40:14normality , and perfection .
40:16In very general terms , the model of "
40:18normal " is derived from the notion of
40:21perfection . So , what is a " normal " life
40:24? It is precisely a life that is
40:27presented to us in the most idealized
40:28way possible and , therefore , perfect .
40:31Think , for example , of the slang term "
40:33padrão . " " That guy is such a '
40:35padrãozinho ' . " I mean , basically ,
40:36that the guy has a stomach shaped like
40:38a shrimp's back . He's fully tanned and
40:40hairless . He has a square jaw , a
40:43meticulously stubbled beard , perfectly
40:45disheveled hair , and radioactive-white
40:48aligned teeth .
40:50When you're offered a standard , that
40:52standard is presented as something good
40:53, something you need to follow
40:55precisely because it's good . But what
40:57happens if I reach that standard ? I'll
41:00realize it's not as good as I had
41:02imagined . As a result , I'll want
41:05something even bigger . So , the standard
41:07I'm offered is always one step above
41:09what I'm capable of doing . So , I get
41:11close to that standard , and the
41:12standard changes . I get close to that
41:13standard , and that standard changes .
41:14That's why this standard is an ideal .
41:16The idea of " normal " at this point
41:19transforms the normal into a " norm . " I
41:22take it from this nomenclature of the
41:24norm , and the norm is what must be done
41:26, it's what is expected . It separates
41:28from the average . That's what's so
41:30interesting , because the norm becomes
41:32perfection , from social media to
41:34behavioral manuals , wherever we choose
41:37to look . When you look , for example , at
41:41standards of body , family , behavior ,
41:43fashion , whatever you want , attitude ,
41:45relationships , you'll see , Tomas , that
41:48there's a huge degree of idealization .
41:52And , therefore , if I'm talking about an
41:54ideal , I'm returning to a negative
41:56version of that Greek ideal back from
41:57Plato . Only it isn't presented to me as
42:00something in the world of ideas ; it's
42:02presented as something on my horizon ,
42:04and I only don't reach it if I don't
42:06want to .
42:07This impossible vicious circle has one
42:10extra little detail : we are constantly
42:13being evaluated in public and in real
42:15time . Do you notice that in an
42:18evaluation culture like ours , where we
42:20are constantly giving ratings and stars
42:22on social media , this demand for
42:23perfection becomes even stronger ?
42:26Yeah , so that was actually my question ,
42:29right ? Because as you said , this
42:32concept in a way converses with ancient
42:34Greece , it consolidates in the
42:36industrial revolution , but perhaps
42:39we've never been so pressured in this
42:41sense as we are now . Not only because
42:44we are constantly showing , displaying
42:47ourselves on social media , right ?
42:50Eh , I know you aren't exactly a regular
42:52on Instagram and TikTok ,
42:55but I'm talking about the average
42:56person , right ? Eh , and I think the book
42:58speaks to them especially .
43:00Uh-huh . But we're not just showing
43:01ourselves , we're watching too . And so
43:04we have various levels of editing ,
43:06filters , and crops of reality , where
43:09whenever we see someone else's life , we
43:12only see the good part , right ? Nobody
43:15posts stories when their relationship
43:16ends , when they're depressed , when they
43:18don't want to get out of bed , right ?
43:19When they didn't go to the gym , right ?
43:21When they skipped leg day , right ? We
43:23live in this society where perfection
43:25is always being sold , right ? Look ,
43:28first of all , it's interesting to note
43:31that , especially on social media , life
43:33is edited to look cooler than it
43:36actually is . And it's quite curious how
43:40, on screen , even the most trivial
43:42actions gain new life simply because
43:45they have greater visibility . Then , of
43:50course , you have some processes that
43:52are even psychic in nature , which are
43:54projection and identification .
43:57Here are two psychology concepts that
43:59are important for us to break down .
44:01Identification is when you look at the
44:03life of a celebrity , a schoolmate , or
44:05an ex , and think , " Wow , that person's
44:07life is so cool . " Projection , on the
44:10other hand , goes a step further . It's
44:12when you look at all of that and think :
44:14" Wow , I wish , I want , this is the
44:17person I want to be . " That is a
44:20projection . When I literally project
44:23onto someone something that is inside
44:25me , and I find in that person a home
44:27for this idea of mine . So I see that
44:30celebrity with a wonderful life , and I ,
44:33with my everyday life , project my dream
44:36onto that person . Hence the idea of
44:38projection , of literally projecting , as
44:40if it were a screen . The person , poor
44:42thing , is not to blame at all for me
44:43being ...
44:43Well , maybe a little , right ?
44:45Well , maybe a little , but blame is a
44:46strong word , I didn't want to get into
44:48that . But anyway , they aren't to blame
44:50for me projecting my stuff onto them ,
44:52but in a way , the life they display to
44:55me allows for this projection and , at
44:57the same time , allows for forms of
44:59identification where I say , " Wow , I'm
45:01like that too . " Except that
45:03identification and projection aren't
45:05always positive . So , sometimes I see a
45:08person with this perfect life and think
45:10, " Wow , I want to be like that . " And I
45:12immediately remember that I'm not . I
45:15look around and see , wow , I don't have
45:18and won't have any of that . It reminds
45:21me a bit , if you have a rich enough
45:23inner life , of those verses by Carlos
45:25Drummond de Andrade . I think it’s by
45:27Carlos Drummond ; I’m always afraid of
45:29quoting poetry and having someone say ,
45:30" No , that’s not Drummond , it’s
45:32Fernando Pessoa . " I’m not very good
45:33at remembering that stuff . Luís is
45:35right to be cautious about his own
45:37poetic memory , as the verses he’s
45:39referring to were written by the
45:40Portuguese poet , perhaps the greatest
45:42poet of the Portuguese language ,
45:44Fernando Pessoa .
45:45I am nothing , I shall always be nothing
45:48, I cannot wish to be nothing .
45:50Aside from that , I have all the dreams
45:51of the world within me . Wait , I have in
45:54me all the dreams of the world . It’s
45:57the first stanza of the poem * Tobacco
45:59Shop * , which has everything to do with
46:01perfection . It is narrated by a man who
46:03is watching a tobacco shop from a
46:04window across the street . He looks at
46:07the world outside and laments his own
46:09existence , of a life he wasn't able to
46:11live . Quoting another little piece of *
46:13Tobacco Shop * . The world is for those
46:16who are born to conquer it and not for
46:18those who dream that they can conquer
46:19it , even if they are right . I have
46:22dreamed more than Napoleon achieved . I
46:24have held to my hypothetical breast
46:26more humanities than Christ . I have
46:28made secret philosophies that no Kant
46:31has ever written . But I am and perhaps
46:34always will be the one from the attic .
46:37Even if I don't live in it , I will
46:39always be the one who wasn't born for
46:41it . I will always be just the one who
46:43had qualities . I will always be the one
46:46who waited for them to open the door at
46:48a wall with no door . But when you are
46:54in a mechanism of projection like this ,
46:56you look around , what happens ? Your
46:57dream collapses . You say : " Wow , I am
46:59not and I cannot be , and my dreams
47:01aren't here anymore either . " The vision
47:04of this perfect life can inspire us , of
47:06course , but it has a side effect . The
47:09perfect life of others often serves
47:11only to remind me of the imperfection
47:13of my own and to make me feel even more
47:16down , saying : " Man , look , so-and-so my
47:18age has already achieved I don't know
47:20what car , position , projection , fame ,
47:23and here I am living my daily life . "
47:25And I've heard 22 - year-olds say , and
47:28this makes me very sad : " No , I am a
47:31failure , I will be nothing . " Here
47:34it’s worth mentioning a second layer
47:36of * Tobacco Shop * that is perhaps the
47:37great beauty of the poem . The man who
47:40contemplates better lives knows that
47:42what he thinks is false , it’s a
47:43projection . He knows the pleasure the
47:47chocolate gives the girl is the result
47:49of chemical reactions , he knows the
47:51world is imperfect and that in the end
47:53nothing really makes sense . Cue the
47:56quote for Fernandão . But the
47:59tobacconist arrived at the door and
48:01stood in the doorway . He looked with
48:03the discomfort of a head ill-turned and
48:05the discomfort of a soul , barely
48:07understanding . He will die , I will die .
48:11He will leave the sign , and I will
48:14leave verses . At a certain point the
48:17sign will die too , and the verses as
48:19well . After a certain point , the street
48:22where the sign stood will die , and the
48:23language in which the verses were
48:25written . Then the spinning planet where
48:27all this took place will die . End quote
48:31. To make that a little less sad after
48:41my last line , right ? We create
48:43characters for every situation , nobody
48:45knows if we’re both wearing slippers .
48:48Off-camera , the more visible part , we
48:50don't know if we’re , I don't know , in
48:52sweatpants , in slippers . I’m not ,
48:54before anyone asks .
48:55Leave it a mystery . Leave the mystery
48:56in the air . Ho .
48:57Leave the mystery . Leave the mystery .
48:59But we could be . Why ? Because this one ,
49:01at this moment , is our public persona .
49:03These books here are all cardboard ,
49:04right ? Those too , right ? They are .
49:06Yeah , if you push them , they fall .
49:07Yeah .
49:08But it’s interesting to think about
49:09the following : on social media , even
49:11because of the architecture of the
49:13networks , we know there are some types
49:14of content that grab more attention .
49:17And these types of content , in general ,
49:19are linked to performance in a very
49:21theatrical sense , which doesn't mean
49:22it's fake , okay ? But a performance of a
49:26perfect life . Why ? Because we know it
49:28will get likes , it will go viral , it
49:30will grab attention .
49:32And we want to be loved , right ? We want
49:34, we want love , we want , we want
49:36success too , we want recognition , right
49:38? Don't we ?
49:39Yes . We want to be loved , everyone
49:42wants to be loved , and perfectionism is
49:44closely linked to this primitive desire
49:47. Although we keep our eyes on perfect
49:50standards , we seek to reach them not so
49:53much because of what they bring to the
49:55world , nor even because they make us
49:57look brilliant , but because doing
49:59something right alleviates the fears
50:01caused by the shame of not being good
50:03enough to be loved or valued or , in
50:06other words , to matter to others . It's
50:09a curious affective economy we live in
50:11these days , where the like , the heart ,
50:13the comment , and the share are signs of
50:15affection , right ? That's interesting .
50:17One day , perhaps archaeologists of the
50:20future will try to understand . At the
50:23beginning of the 21st century , people
50:25understood that a like was a form of
50:27validation , of affection , perhaps even
50:29of love . So , yeah . So , we know that
50:32displaying this life in this affective
50:35economy brings a very strong sense of
50:37satisfaction . Getting that admiration
50:41feels good , let's say , in very simple
50:42terms , it's good for the ego . Wow , how
50:45cool , look , you made it . But for every
50:48one who makes it , you have millions who
50:51don't . And that creates this tension
50:53between what we see on social media and
50:56the reality of our lives . And there is
51:00an important point in this whole
51:01discussion that Luís addresses in the
51:03book , which is the impact of this norm
51:05of perfection on different types of
51:07people . People who are further from the
51:09established standard tend to suffer
51:11more from the negative impacts of
51:13imposing these standards .
51:15Of course , the further you are from the
51:18established standard , the more you will
51:20be pressured to be closer to that
51:22standard . In some cases , they will sell
51:26you all kinds of cures and solutions to
51:29rid you of this imperfection that is
51:31sometimes your body , you know ?
51:35Sometimes it's your lifestyle ,
51:37sometimes it's your background ,
51:39sometimes it's your face , but to rid
51:41you of the taboo of this imperfection
51:44and make you closer to a standard .
51:58Everything indicates that social media
51:59is among the culprits . That's why more
52:01and more researchers have been
52:02considering an epidemic of
52:04perfectionism , but they are part of a
52:06larger system . We live in a society
52:08based on consumption . If the economy
52:11doesn't grow , it's a sign of a crisis .
52:13And growth depends on people buying
52:15more things . And people are buying more
52:19things . In the United States , retail
52:22sales rose from 4.3 trillion dollars in
52:262012 to 6.5 trillion dollars in 2025 .
52:30Marcelo , one thing that really caught
52:33my attention while reading Thomas
52:35Curran's book was how this personality
52:38trait combines with our capitalist way
52:40of life , right ? Perfectionism makes
52:44people want to produce more and more ,
52:46want to have more and more , want to buy
52:49more and more , right ?
52:51Perfectionism is the defining
52:53psychology of an economic system that
52:56is determined to overcome human limits .
52:59It's quite interesting , how convenient
53:02it is , right , for capitalism for people
53:04to seek perfectionism , right ?
53:08It's fully reinforced , right , in the
53:10capitalist system , this standard , where
53:13a person ties their personal value to
53:15what they achieve , right ? So , that's
53:19the message that capitalism conveys ,
53:21isn't it ? It’s hard for me to want to
53:23let go , right ? To think that I want to
53:26abandon my perfectionism in an
53:29environment that reinforces these
53:31results I can get , through this
53:34hyper-investment , eh , even unrealistic ,
53:37in this productivity , right ? For Luís
53:49Mauro San Martino , this hatred of
53:51perfectionism has created a monster he
53:53dubbed the " low self-esteem economy . "
53:56The more I prove to you that you have a
53:58problem , the more I can sell you the
53:59solution .
54:00In the book , Luiz recounts a
54:02conversation he had with a former
54:03student who was thinking about starting
54:05a master's degree .
54:06It was a more technical chat , about
54:08research , where to go , she wanted to
54:10study abroad . And then we started
54:12talking about values , because studying
54:13abroad isn't easy , right ? It's not a
54:15decision you make overnight for most
54:17social strata . And she said , " No , I
54:20want to study this and that , " and at
54:21one point , right ? She says , " Well , I
54:23don't know if I should use the money I
54:25have saved . " " I have some savings , but I
54:27won't go for the master's because I
54:29need to get preventive plastic surgery .
54:31"
54:31Luiz told me he was a bit confused . He
54:34even thought it might be corrective
54:35surgery due to some congenital problem
54:37or something of the sort .
54:38Sorry , preventive plastic surgery . And
54:41she said , " Yes , because the skin starts
54:43to decay after age 20. " So imagine ,
54:45I've already been in decay for 27 years
54:48. Ever since I turned 20 . She showed me
54:50, " Look , these are wrinkles . " And I
54:52looked , and I couldn't see them . And
54:54indeed , she didn't do the master's
54:56degree . She opted for preventive
54:58plastic surgery to maintain her face or
55:01avoid wrinkles , something like that .
55:04And there's a chapter where you talk
55:06about ... I remembered Marx , right ? In
55:08the Communist Manifesto , it ends with ,
55:10I think perhaps one of the most famous
55:11phrases in history , which is : " all that
55:13is solid melts into air , " right ? And
55:15you talk about this fragility of
55:17perfection , right ? And we are here , in
55:19our 40s , and we are in fact starting to
55:21see our own wrinkles appear , right ? I
55:25think as we get older , it becomes
55:27clearer that things are indeed fleeting
55:30, that things will disappear , will
55:32decay .
55:33Uh-huh .
55:35Sooner or later we’re going to turn
55:37to dust or , if you believe in something
55:38else , a part of us will turn to dust ,
55:40right ? But the fact is that this search
55:44for perfection and this need to
55:47maintain perfection makes aging and
55:50human decrepitude even more complicated
55:53, right , Luiz ? Do you see that parallel
55:55?
55:56Absolutely . The idea of perfection ,
55:58Tomás , has many side effects , doesn't
56:00it ? In fact , in a way , the whole book
56:02is a study of these side effects , a
56:04story about these side effects . One of
56:07the side effects is that we turn the
56:09idea of loss into failure . So I lost , I
56:11failed . I lost my youth , so I failed to
56:15stay eternally young . I lost my job , so
56:18I failed to succeed in everything . I
56:21lost a relationship , so I failed . This
56:24equivalence between loss and failure
56:26makes us forget that loss is a natural
56:28condition of human life . That's not a
56:31pretty speech . I know it's not a nice
56:33speech . We would love to hear the
56:36opposite , but that’s the reality
56:38you’ll face when you lay your head on
56:40the pillow at night and remember that
56:42you have limited time , that life goes
56:44on , that things continue . And perhaps
56:49the idea , Tomás , is really to learn to
56:51understand loss as part of the game ,
56:54it’s part of being human .
56:58And there’s another correlation you
57:00make between two extremes , which is the
57:02issue of lack and excess , right ? It’s
57:05a human condition , isn't it ? We always
57:07have this feeling of emptiness , right ?
57:10Everyone fills it in their own way ,
57:11right ? Many people fill it with
57:13religion , others fill it with sports ,
57:15right ? Even if we try to fill it ,
57:17there's no way we can actually fill
57:19that lack , right ? We have to live with
57:21it , it’s part of being human , right ?
57:24But then you talk about excess as a
57:27counterpoint to this lack , in the sense
57:29that we keep trying more and more to
57:32fill that void and then we fall into a
57:34world of excess , right ?
57:36Yeah , since I don’t accept losing , I
57:38don’t accept any loss , I don’t know
57:40how to deal with lack . Since I don’t
57:42know how to deal with lack , I don’t
57:44know how to deal with my own voids , I
57:45don’t know how to deal with my
57:47shortcomings , I don’t know how to
57:48deal with my losses . And in the face of
57:50what is missing , I often look for a
57:53whole logic of excess to try to deal
57:56with a lack I don't want to face . So ,
57:59for example , remembering that I am
58:01getting older , that I will no longer
58:03have — starting in November , I will
58:05never be 47 again . My God , soon I'll
58:08reach 50 , so I won't be young anymore .
58:11I have this lack , and if I take the
58:13discourse of perfection seriously , my
58:15God , I won't be young anymore . So , if
58:18I'm not young , I have to fall into
58:21excess , seeking all kinds of elements
58:24to fill this void . For example ,
58:27something very typical and , I believe ,
58:30much closer in some circles than in
58:32others . I will try to act like a young
58:34person .
58:35The classic midlife crisis where a guy
58:38buys a motorcycle , right ? He breaks up
58:40and gets a girlfriend 20 years younger .
58:41Exactly . Exactly . Because in reality ,
58:44the crisis isn't about midlife . He
58:45didn't manage to mature enough to reach
58:47midlife . The crisis is because he wants
58:50to cling eternally to a youth , right ,
58:52to this image of a child , of a young
58:54person he once was , or maybe never even
58:57was in the way he wanted to be . Since
59:00this youth is missing , a hole is left .
59:02Instead of filling the hole and saying ,
59:04" Let me enjoy my maturity , " I go to the
59:06excess of the search , which is what you
59:09call the phantom of lives not lived ,
59:11right ?
59:11Exactly . One of the ways we can deal
59:14with this search for perfection , Tomás
59:16, is by stopping the imagination of the
59:18life I could have had . Because , of
59:21course , I could have always had a
59:22better life , but sometimes that ends up
59:24turning into guilt . " Oh , if only I had
59:27made that choice , you know ? " But I
59:29didn't . " Oh , if I had married so-and-so
59:32, if I had dated what's-her-name , if I
59:34had accepted that job offer " — every
59:37choice I make , I " un-choose , " to play
59:40with the language a bit . You , with the
59:42dictionary right there behind you ,
59:44forgive me . Every time I choose one
59:46thing , I un-choose all the others . But
59:48that doesn't mean I leave them behind .
59:51Often , the choices I didn't make
59:53continue to haunt me , and they gain
59:56strength because , since I didn't choose
59:59them , I can idealize them as much as I
1:00:03want . I can make them as perfect as I
1:00:07want . The life I didn't live , if I
1:00:10don't remember that it would be exactly
1:00:12the same as the one I have today , it
1:00:14becomes a ghost . It will haunt me . And
1:00:16an exercise for us to do is as follows .
1:00:19Maybe if I had the life I'm imagining ,
1:00:21the life I didn't live , maybe I'd miss
1:00:23the one I have . At this point , over an
1:00:36hour into the episode , I need to tell
1:00:38you about one more perverse aspect of
1:00:41perfectionism . I promise it will be the
1:00:44last , because one of the most
1:00:46emblematic characteristics of our
1:00:48capitalist system is the idea of
1:00:50meritocracy , that effort is rewarded ,
1:00:53that if you really dedicate yourself ,
1:00:55you'll get there , wherever " there " may
1:00:58be . Interviewees call perfectionism
1:01:01their best flaw . Leaders in the world
1:01:04of business , politics , sports , and the
1:01:07arts attribute their success to it .
1:01:10Celebrities and life coaches educate us
1:01:12on the many ways we can maximize it for
1:01:15personal gain . In fact , much of what we
1:01:19understand as virtue in work , money ,
1:01:21status , and the good life in modern
1:01:24society constitutes the powerful
1:01:26driving force of perfectionism , an
1:01:28obsession with unlimited growth and a
1:01:31search for more at any cost . This cost
1:01:35has grown exponentially . We are
1:01:38drowning in our discontent , submerged
1:01:40in the depths of not being enough ,
1:01:43seeking perfection because others seem
1:01:45perfect without effort .
1:01:48The problem is that effort may take you
1:01:51further , but it has a limit , while
1:01:52perfectionism is limitless . Research
1:01:56shows that , in fact , perfectionism
1:01:58often leads to worse results . Those who
1:02:01study the subject usually see the
1:02:03performance graph as a parabola . It
1:02:06begins with an ascending line in the
1:02:08zone of increasing returns . More effort
1:02:10generates more performance . But this
1:02:13has a limit . And those who go beyond
1:02:15the limit reach the zone of diminishing
1:02:17returns . The effects of excessive
1:02:20effort , like stress and exhaustion ,
1:02:22start to hinder results . Then comes the
1:02:25zone of negative returns , where
1:02:27performance really plummets , often
1:02:30because the perfectionist in question
1:02:32has stopped trying . And I don't need to
1:02:36tell you that crossing levels of
1:02:38success with levels of perfectionism
1:02:40isn't the kind of thing that's easy to
1:02:42do , but there are many people trying in
1:02:44various ways . And in general , what the
1:02:47bulk of these studies has shown is that
1:02:50perfectionistic people are no more
1:02:52successful than others . And why do we
1:02:56make this direct association between
1:02:58success and perfectionism ? Everything
1:03:00indicates it's because , as we said
1:03:02earlier , the perfectionists who fail
1:03:04are all hidden under worn-out blankets .
1:03:09Stories , billboards , reality shows only
1:03:11show the perfectionists who succeeded ,
1:03:13who made it , wherever that may be .
1:03:29Before I finish , I want to invite you
1:03:31to check out Ciência Suja , a podcast
1:03:33that is our partner at Rádio
1:03:35Guarda-Chuva and which , as the name
1:03:36suggests , cares about investigating the
1:03:39not-so-clean side of science . In their
1:03:43most recent episode , done in a chatty
1:03:45format , they talk about the widely
1:03:47spread idea that there is a secret cure
1:03:49for cancer being hidden from the public
1:03:52. It’s a very intriguing conversation
1:03:54, so search for Ciência Suja on your
1:03:56favorite audio app . Give it a listen ,
1:03:59you won't regret it . I'm Tomás
1:04:09Kiaverini and this concludes episode
1:04:12165 of Escafandro . Thank you for
1:04:15listening and see you on the next dive .
1:04:28Hello , this is Rita Rapazote . I am
1:04:31speaking from Lisbon , Portugal . The
1:04:35cover design is by Cláudia Fornari .
1:04:40The theme music is by Paulo Gama . The
1:04:45sound mixing for this episode is by
1:04:47Vítor Coroa . Production and audio
1:04:51editing are by Mateus Marcolino . Script
1:04:56, direction , and sound design by Tomás
1:05:00Kiaverini . Special thanks to Thaís
1:05:04Porlã .