Full transcript
0:00Hi .
0:01This podcast is a production of Rádio
0:03Guarda-chuva , journalism for those who
0:05like to listen . When economists analyze
0:10the world , in general , they do so
0:12exclusively through the lens of
0:14economics ,
0:15making decisions ,
0:16but there are exceptions .
0:18Most of the important decisions we make
0:19in life are taken in social contexts ,
0:21right ? This is economist , researcher ,
0:24and University of Chicago professor ,
0:26Leonardo Bursztyn .
0:27Since you're in school , you're subject
0:30to pressure from your peers , right ? You
0:33have to behave one way , you have to
0:34behave another way , you are influenced .
0:36Leonardo Bursztyn did his undergraduate
0:38and master's degrees at the University
0:39of Brasília . In 2005 , he went to the
0:41United States to pursue a PhD at
0:43Harvard and has been a professor at the
0:45University of Chicago since 2016 .
0:47You buy things not just because you
0:48like the product , but because you think
0:50the product might impress others . So ,
0:53my research has studied over the years
0:55the extent to which these social
0:57contexts affect the decisions people
0:59make . To do this , besides using
1:03economic concepts , Leonardo usually
1:04borrows tools from other fields ,
1:07from psychology , from sociology , to try
1:09to understand these decisions . And
1:11typically , my papers use experiments ,
1:13right , and often field experiments ,
1:15right ? In a very interesting study ,
1:25Leonardo investigated if , in the 21st
1:27century , in the largest economy on the
1:29planet , highly educated women are still
1:31willing to sacrifice their own careers
1:33and public image to please suitors of
1:35the opposite sex .
1:38There is evidence that professional
1:41success , earning money , and being
1:43ambitious are things that are still
1:46penalized today in the market . and in
1:49relationships . But so , what we tried to
1:53study in that , in that study , is to
1:55what extent single women make an effort
1:57to appear less ambitious and even give
1:59up opportunities in the job market to
2:01be able to signal , in the relationship
2:03market , that they , in fact , they are ,
2:05uh , they aren't that ambitious and so
2:07on , right ? For this , Leonardo Bursztyn
2:15and two colleagues ran an experiment in
2:17an MBA program in the United States . In
2:20the program in question , at the end of
2:22the first year , students did an
2:23internship , which is an important step
2:25in their career , because the chances of
2:27internships turning into jobs are
2:29considerable . And in the course , one of
2:31the steps to select which student will
2:33be sent to which internship is a
2:35questionnaire . And that was where
2:36Leonardo and his colleagues worked . We
2:39manipulated in the questionnaire
2:41whether the student thought only the
2:43university's career placement office ,
2:45right , would see the answers or if
2:47their peers could also see them .
2:50And the result ,
2:51Single women , whenever they thought
2:53their peers would see their answers ,
2:55would portray themselves as less
2:56ambitious . They would say : " Oh , I want
2:59a lower salary in my job , " " Oh , I want
3:01to work fewer hours , I want to travel
3:03less , " and so on , right ? And when asked
3:05if they were very ambitious , they would
3:07say : " I want less . " And we did other
3:15experiments showing that , in fact , this
3:18is really linked to concerns about the
3:20ability to start relationships , and
3:22concerns that they wouldn't be seen as
3:25marriage material .
3:30This was published and is called "
3:31Acting Wife . "
3:32It was published in 2017 in the
3:34American Economic Review . Another
3:42subject that sparked Leonardo
3:44Bursztyn's interest was so-called
3:45conspicuous consumption ,
3:47which is the extent to which people buy
3:49certain products , not just because they
3:51like the product itself , but also for
3:53the symbolic value the product has , its
3:55value as a signal . To me , the pinnacle
3:58of conspicuous consumption is suede
4:00loafers , an important part of the
4:02universal uniform of the " engineered "
4:04man on a Sunday afternoon . It's worth
4:10saying here that this is a personal and
4:11subjective hypothesis . Unlike Leonardo ,
4:14I haven't been able to produce a field
4:16study on suede loafers , but I've
4:17thought about them a lot . And the first
4:24point is that they are slightly
4:26ridiculous . You'll hardly ever see a
4:31sex symbol , like Keanu Reeves or Ryan
4:33Gosling , wearing suede loafers in a
4:35Hollywood blockbuster . Men in suede
4:39loafers , when they do appear in
4:40Hollywood blockbusters , appear as the
4:42most ridiculous " engineered " men . Even
4:45so , suede loafers continue to feature
4:48as an essential item in the " engineered
4:50" man's Sunday afternoon uniform . This ,
4:53in my unscientific hypothesis , has to
4:55do with three factors . The first is
4:58somewhat obvious . Suede loafers can be
5:00expensive . There are Prada models that
5:03reach R $ 6,000 a pair . The second
5:07factor is that they are delicate . Get
5:09them wet , and they're ruined . In other
5:12words , men who wear suede loafers are
5:14rubbing in the faces of the rest of us
5:16mortals the privileged position they
5:18occupy . In the path of the man in suede
5:21loafers , there are no puddles or muddy
5:23streets . The man in suede loafers is
5:26safe . The world will adapt to him ,
5:29guaranteeing a journey traveled
5:31exclusively on carpets , marble ,
5:33mahogany , or similar flooring . And
5:39finally , the third factor is the
5:41ephemerality of suede loafers , because
5:43the true " engineered " man wears suede
5:46loafers without socks . And loafers worn
5:50without socks , even those costing R $
5:526,000 , are fated to succumb to the
5:54stinky odors that afflict all humans ,
5:56whether wealthy or not . The difference
6:00is that while we normal humans change
6:02our socks , the wealthy man is so rich
6:04he can afford the luxury of changing
6:06his loafers . Of course , we could also
6:15use less subjective examples , like a
6:17luxury car , for instance . You buy an
6:19expensive car , which is something
6:20visible , and that will impress other
6:22people . They will think you are
6:24successful ; it sends a signal .
6:26I mean , when you buy a luxury car , you
6:28might even be buying comfort , power , or
6:31safety , but just like in the case of
6:33the suede loafer , you're also buying
6:35the status that that car gives you . And
6:38that creates a problem , because status
6:40is something highly subjective , which
6:42doesn't depend only on you , but also on
6:44the sociocultural group you're in . And
6:47when it comes to luxury , the sky is the
6:49limit . So , if your neighbor buys a
6:52flashier car than yours , or a more
6:54expensive loafer , the value of your car
6:56and your loafer will drop and you'll
6:58feel compelled to buy a more expensive
7:00car and a pricier loafer , perhaps made
7:03from the skin of an endangered animal ,
7:05while deep down , you might just want to
7:07take an Uber wearing flip-flops .
7:10It becomes a game , right , what they
7:12call here in the United States the " rat
7:13race , " a race where you're always
7:14running but never getting anywhere . You
7:16have to spend , spend , spend . A bit of
7:18the logic of capitalism in some aspect .
7:20And that gives you something to think
7:21about .
7:22Are there important situations where
7:24there's a product people buy , but they
7:25would prefer the product didn't exist ,
7:27but since it does exist , they have no
7:29choice but to buy it , even though if
7:30they could coordinate , they would ban
7:32the product ? I kept thinking about that
7:34, you know ?
7:35And for a long time , Leonardo Burstin
7:37had the idea of studying phenomena of
7:39this type , but he couldn't see the
7:41right target . And even though this
7:43target was there shouting at him all
7:45the time , Leonardo couldn't see it . And
7:48he thought of examples , let's say , not
7:49very practical ones .
7:51And India has these wedding markets ,
7:53right , where people spend , spend the
7:55family fortune to hold a wedding and
7:57the weddings keep getting bigger and
7:59bigger .
8:00Indian weddings .
8:02The idea was , like , what if you go to a
8:04village in India , a company tries to
8:06introduce a more expensive level of
8:07weddings , would people want to buy it ,
8:09but they still wanted to ban it , you
8:11know ? That idea was being nurtured , but
8:15it was like a context that was
8:16interesting , but man , much less
8:18universal .
8:20And so Leonardo kept chewing on that
8:22idea , thinking about how to conduct
8:24experiments in Indian villages , until
8:26last year when necessity finally
8:28presented the perfect , simple , and
8:29obvious solution .
8:31Look how things turn out . And I was
8:33invited to give a keynote , right , how
8:35do you say it ? A master lecture , a , it
8:38was a conference on , well , social media
8:39economics , and they wanted me to give
8:41the main talk there .
8:43Here is an important detail : Leonardo
8:45has been out of Brazil for almost 20
8:47years , so he ended up using an
8:48imprecise translation . He translated "
8:51social media " as " mídias sociais , "
8:53when in reality , we call them " redes
8:55sociais . " So , whenever he refers to "
8:58social media , " he actually means social
9:00networks .
9:01And they said , " Look , it has to be
9:02something new , general , important . " I
9:04said , " Oh boy , now what am I going to
9:06talk about , what am I going to present
9:07at the University of Chicago ? "
9:09That was New York , right ? In July of
9:11last year . So , I thought , wow , now I
9:14need a new study on social media . And
9:17that , that idea I'd been thinking about
9:18for a long time , does it make sense to
9:20apply it to social media ? Because we
9:23start to see that issue of , of public
9:25opinion ; we start to hear anecdotes
9:28that people are suffering , there are
9:30mental health problems with teenagers ,
9:33especially teenage girls who suffer a
9:35lot , uh , issues of image and body image
9:38, right ? Uh , the issue of even suicide ,
9:41we start to see bullying , these things ,
9:43you know , from social media , Instagram
9:45and all that , or people wasting time on
9:48TikTok videos . I said , " Man , is there
9:50really a lot of people using it ?
9:53Because everyone is using it and it's
9:55very costly not to use it and be
9:57excluded , to be considered a weirdo who
9:59doesn't have Instagram , who doesn't
10:01have TikTok at school and all that ,
10:03when in reality they don't even want it
10:05to exist , you know ? " I said , " Man ,
10:07let's go , let's see . " We went , we
10:09started doing the study .
10:12And it seems like , uh , I don't know if
10:13it's because when we look back ,
10:15coincidences remain , causalities emerge
10:17, right ? But it seems like the ideal
10:20field to apply your hypothesis , doesn't
10:22it ? I think maybe even more than the
10:24luxury market , right ? There's nothing
10:26more .
10:26Yes . So , it's , yes , that was when it
10:28clicked , it's that thing , right ? When
10:31afterwards , right ? You bet , you go ,
10:32damn , it was right in front of you ,
10:34like that . I am Tomás Queaverini and
10:48episode 114 of Escafandro has already
10:50begun . In it , we'll talk about how
10:54social networks have become a global
10:56trap to snare human brains . First , I
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12:31thank you very much , thank you very
12:33much indeed for that . After realizing
12:41that social networks were an ideal
12:43field for the studies he wanted to
12:44conduct , Leonardo Burstin began to look
12:46more carefully at this strange
12:48phenomenon of capitalism . And one of
12:51the oddities of networks is that ,
12:53unlike most products , they change
12:54according to the number of people who
12:56are in them .
12:58Whether it's a drink or food , if 20
13:00people , 1,000 , or a million people are
13:01consuming it , the taste of the food
13:02doesn't change . But if you remove all
13:05the users from Instagram , for example ,
13:08it simply ceases to make any sense .
13:10Orkut , Myspace , and Snapchat are just a
13:13few examples of this . At the same time ,
13:16when these networks manage to absurdly
13:18increase the number of people inside
13:20them , they end up affecting the lives
13:22of those who aren't .
13:23For example , if all your friends are
13:25using Instagram and you're not , you pay
13:27a high price , right ? You'll feel
13:29excluded . Let's say you won't know what
13:32other people know , and they won't know
13:33what you're doing . If , say , the
13:36conversation is happening in chat
13:39groups within Instagram , you're left
13:41out of the loop . So , there is a high
13:45cost to not consuming a product that is
13:47a social product , like a social network
13:49, which most people you know are using .
13:52With this insight , we tried to
13:54understand to what extent people are
13:56using social media because they
13:58actually like the product versus the
14:01situation where they don't like it , but
14:03the cost of not using it is higher than
14:05the cost of using it . Let's say I hate
14:09Instagram , for example , but I hate
14:11being excluded when everyone else is
14:14using it even more . So , even though I
14:16don't like it , I'm using it . Given this
14:23, Leonardo Burstin , along with two
14:25other colleagues , set up a field
14:27experiment to try to find out how many
14:30people on social networks actually like
14:32social networks . But before talking
14:38about this experiment , we need to talk
14:40about another aspect that keeps people
14:41trapped in the network's snare ,
14:45addiction . During the research for this
14:50episode , I conducted a poll with
14:51listeners of Rádio Escafandro on
14:53Instagram . The question was quite open :
14:56" Are you addicted to your cell phone ? "
15:01About 2,000 people responded . And even
15:03though we have to take this sample with
15:05a grain of salt , after all , the
15:06question was asked on a social network .
15:09Still , the result was impressive ,
15:11frightening , and perhaps questionable .
15:17Almost 90 % of people said yes , they were
15:19addicted to their cell phones . Given
15:27this , I did what journalists do when
15:28they find impressive , frightening , and
15:30perhaps questionable results . I went
15:33looking for answers .
15:34I'm Carla Cavalheiro Mura , I'm a
15:36clinical psychologist ,
15:38a specialist in the subject .
15:40I've been in private practice for over
15:4230 years and currently coordinate the
15:44technological addictions group at the
15:46Impulse Control Disorders outpatient
15:48clinic of the Institute of Psychiatry
15:50at Hospital das Clínicas in São Paulo
15:52.
15:53It's an interesting laboratory , isn't
15:54it ? Because it works with what you call
15:57impulse , is that it , but they are forms
15:59of addiction , right ? I'm not sure if
16:02that's the correct way to put it , we
16:03can even get into that , but chemical
16:05dependency isn't part of this working
16:06group , is it ?
16:07Actually , we don't use the term " vice "
16:10very much ; we use the term " dependency "
16:12more .
16:12In this outpatient program at HC , which
16:14goes by the name Proamite , they have
16:16groups for various types of dependency ,
16:18with technological dependency being one
16:21of the last to be incorporated . So ,
16:23shopping addiction , food addiction ,
16:26having an impulse to pull out hair ,
16:28which is trichotillomania , or picking
16:31at one's skin pathologically and
16:34obsessively , which is excoriation
16:36disorder . So , people have dependencies
16:40on behaviors , so we call them
16:42behavioral addictions . So there are two
16:46major vices , right , two major
16:48dependencies : chemical dependencies ,
16:51which are linked to the use of
16:53substances , toxic substances , and then
16:56there are behavioral dependencies . It's
16:59an area of psychology , psychiatry , and
17:02health , actually , that is quite recent .
17:05Let me ask you specifically about this
17:08matter of words , like dependency , vice ,
17:11and addiction , right ? Are they synonyms
17:14, but we are using the word dependency
17:17more , or is there a root difference in
17:20these terms ?
17:23They are synonyms , but what we use most
17:25in literature , in the medical field ,
17:27addiction is used quite a bit , right ,
17:30addictions , but it's mostly
17:31dependencies .
17:33This issue of words might seem silly ,
17:36but it isn't . Because when I conducted
17:38the poll with our listeners on
17:40Instagram , the question mentioned " vice
17:41. " And this word , being the most used ,
17:44ended up becoming worn out and lost a
17:46bit of its precision , because on one
17:48hand , it gained a pejorative character .
17:52Saying someone is addicted to crack or
17:53addicted to drinking brings more weight
17:55to an already dramatic situation .
17:57Curiously , the opposite also happened .
18:00Often , we use " vice " metaphorically in
18:03lighter contexts . I'm addicted to Game
18:07of Thrones or I'm addicted to chocolate
18:08. And even if it's possible to be
18:11addicted to these two things , in
18:12general , that's not really what's
18:14happening . So I asked Carla Cavalheiro
18:17Moura to explain what characterizes
18:19vice or dependency . She started with
18:22behavioral dependencies . They are
18:25behaviors that we all engage in . For
18:27example , shopping behavior , right ?
18:29Everyone shops , but some people do a
18:32little bit more . And that little bit
18:36more , or a lot more , let’s say ,
18:38causes these people to get sick because
18:41of the consequences of this abusive use
18:43of a specific behavior that is normal ,
18:46natural , and healthy for life , just
18:49because they do it a bit too much . This
18:53has to do with the way a part of our
18:55brain works , the reward system .
18:58Vices , dependencies , and addictions ,
19:00they all act upon this complex .
19:03Speaking very simply , almost everything
19:06gives us pleasure . So , even fear gives
19:08us pleasure . And then my reward system
19:11records that and says , " Whoa , this is
19:13good , this is cool , this feels
19:14pleasurable , I want more and more of it
19:16. " This system and others like it are
19:20largely responsible not only for your
19:22life and my life continuing , but also
19:24for life on the entire planet . We only
19:27eat and reproduce , for example , because
19:29eating is enjoyable and having sex is
19:31enjoyable . The problem , of course , is
19:34when things happen in excess .
19:37I wanted to talk more about social
19:39media , but first I wanted us to try to
19:41discuss what makes something addictive ,
19:43right ? What do a drug like crack and
19:48gambling or an Instagram feed where we
19:51watch people doing random things have
19:54in common ?
19:57Well , they activate our reward system ,
19:59and within that reward system , dopamine
20:01is released ; there’s pleasure
20:03happening there . Because of this
20:06immediate , very fast , and frequent
20:08pleasure , we can't seem to stop . And
20:13it's something that primarily gives you
20:15pleasure and often serves a function
20:18there , you know ? Whether it's for
20:23distraction , escapism , or mood
20:25modulation — something you need to stay
20:28entertained so you don't have to do
20:31what is unpleasant , because life is
20:34sometimes tedious , it isn't always just
20:37pleasure , pleasure , pleasure , which is
20:40exactly what these behaviors and , if we
20:43think about chemical issues , substances
20:46give us at first , right ? The next step
20:50is the escalation .
20:52You use it more and more and you start
20:55to notice that it’s no longer as
20:57pleasurable as it used to be , that the
20:59little bit of social media you were
21:01using is no longer as gratifying for
21:03you . You have to stay there kind of
21:07longer to be able to feel the same
21:09thing . And when you are not there , you
21:13get a feeling that we call FOMO , fear
21:16of missing out .
21:18Fear of missing out could be loosely
21:20translated as the fear of being left
21:22out . It is one of the great attraction
21:24factors of social media .
21:25There is something happening there that
21:28I don't know that I need to know .
21:30Right ? But then what actually
21:32characterizes a dependency ?
21:34When we talk about addiction , we talk
21:35about biopsychosocial factors . It is a
21:38multifactorial issue . Some people have
21:41more predisposition than others , but to
21:44understand it more easily , we should
21:47see that these people perform certain
21:50behaviors in a dysfunctional way ,
21:52maladaptive , in a way that causes harm
21:55in the physical , psychological , social ,
21:58work , and educational areas , and causes
22:01much psychological suffering .
22:03These are the two central factors of
22:05dependency . It causes harm in other
22:08areas of life and causes suffering .
22:10These two factors must be combined for
22:13us to characterize a dependency . Is
22:16that it ? Mental suffering and
22:18disrupting our lives in some way . Is
22:20that it ?
22:21Yes . Yes . Always . Because , when we
22:24think about harm to daily activities
22:27and technology use , and especially
22:29social media use , if we set aside that
22:31part of mental suffering , which I think
22:34is a smaller portion of the population ,
22:36but the part of daily harm there , I
22:39think practically everyone who is on
22:41social media experiences this to some
22:44degree , don't they ?
22:46Yes , yes . But since the HC is a
22:50reference in the treatment of
22:51technology dependency , the people who
22:53arrive there are usually well beyond
22:55this stage where a good part of the
22:56world's population is today : of living
22:58day to day with this annoyance , this
23:00background noise , this constant urgency
23:02to look at that little glowing square
23:04to see if someone is doing something
23:06interesting , if someone noticed
23:07something interesting you did , if
23:09someone gave you a crumb of human
23:11attention in the form of a little heart
23:12, a thumbs up , a wink , who knows , maybe
23:14even a little flame .
23:17Very serious cases end up arriving ,
23:19people already at the other end , right ,
23:22at an almost final point of addiction .
23:24And it is important to say that even
23:26though we are talking more about social
23:28media here , technology addiction is
23:30multifaceted .
23:31Within technological dependency , there
23:34are problematic activities . So ,
23:38excessive shopping is problematic ,
23:41using pornography excessively is
23:43problematic , electronic games are
23:46problematic , social media , excessive
23:49use of series , streaming , videos , is
23:52harmful , it is also problematic .
23:56Given this , one of the first steps to
23:57treating technology addiction is
23:59understanding the specificities of each
24:01case . According to Carla Cavaleiro
24:04Moura , gaming addiction , for example ,
24:06is more prevalent in males , while
24:08social media addiction is more common
24:11in females .
24:12So , this patient comes to us , Tomás ,
24:16around 26 , 27 years old , absolutely
24:19dysfunctional . Often living a life
24:24where they couldn't even finish high
24:27school due to excessive gaming ; or in
24:31the girl's case , excessive social media
24:34use , leading to comorbidities like
24:37depression , low self-esteem , or
24:40incapacitating anxiety . They arrive in
24:45a state where they haven't been able to
24:47hold any kind of job since they were
24:49very young , right ? They haven't had any
24:52romantic relationships with anyone .
24:56Their families are absolutely distant ,
25:00hurt , upset , and critical of them .
25:05Socially , they end up lacking the ego
25:08support to go out , make friends , or
25:11build relationships , also because
25:14there's an issue of low self-esteem and
25:17a self-concept that was very difficult
25:21to build . So , this is how they arrive .
25:25In this account I'm telling you about ,
25:27we already see the damage , right , from
25:30an academic , professional , and family
25:32perspective , and also the psychological
25:35suffering , because the discourse is : "
25:37I'm here because back then a lot of
25:39people told me I was using certain
25:42activities excessively , but I didn't
25:44realize it , and now I'm seeing that , in
25:47fact , life passed me by and I didn't do
25:49anything . " Just today in the group ,
25:53there was a 27 - year-old young man who
25:55did this ; we do an activity called the
25:57" Life Line . " So we ask this patient to
26:00recount episodes of their " Life Line "
26:02from the time they began treatment . And
26:04he said : " I found my life a bit empty . "
26:10here . If you were one of the people who
26:13answered our survey saying that yes ,
26:15you were addicted to your phone ,
26:16perhaps you are reconsidering . For a
26:20condition to be classified as an
26:21addiction , it must be extreme . I would
26:25venture to guess that most of the 2,000
26:27listeners who answered our poll are not
26:29in that situation . At the same time , I
26:34would also venture to guess that few
26:35things are more familiar to humans
26:37today . than this feeling that our lives
26:40have become emptier , that time on
26:42social media has created bubbles of
26:44nothingness in our already fleeting
26:46existence . And this young man who spoke
26:53about an empty life , was he addicted to
26:55games , social media , or something else ?
26:58He used several things , right ? He also
27:01used games and social media — less so ,
27:04but videos as well . People who game
27:08often also have a habit of watching
27:11others play , and they sort of get into
27:14a flow , a state of immersion . There is
27:19another feature of technology you must
27:21know very well , which is temporal
27:22distortion . So , when I go on , I say , "
27:26Wow , I'll just spend 15 minutes
27:28checking my social media . " And when I
27:31realize how much time has passed ,
27:33it’s usually different from the time
27:35I subjectively perceived .
27:45In an experiment where they tried to
27:47define how much people really enjoy
27:49social media , Leonardo Burstin and his
27:51colleagues started with a step that
27:53seems complicated , but is relatively
27:55simple . Define the price of something
27:58that costs nothing . Actually , what we
28:00are giving in exchange is our data ,
28:02which apparently costs nothing .
28:04How do you vary the value a product
28:06brings to its consumers ? It’s how
28:08much are you willing to pay ? If you are
28:10willing to pay $ 100 , it means you
28:11value that product ; that’s the value
28:13it gives you , right ? And if the product
28:16is free , like social media , the value
28:18is usually calculated by how much I
28:20have to pay you to stop using it . If I
28:23have to pay you $ 100 to stop using a
28:25product , the conclusion is : look , you
28:26really like this product if I have to
28:28pay you $ 100 to quit , right ?
28:30This dollar figure isn't a random
28:32amount , because Leonardo had already
28:35read several similar studies and the
28:37value is usually around that .
28:39How much do I have to pay a person to
28:40stop using Facebook for a month ? It’s
28:43generally around that amount in the
28:44United States with students , maybe
28:45sometimes a little less .
28:47But according to Leonardo Burstin ,
28:49these studies reached imprecise results
28:52because they left out a huge variable .
28:56That was the variable he and his
28:58colleagues were targeting , but to reach
29:00it , they had to start with what they
29:01already knew : defining the price of
29:03social networks — that is , how much
29:05people would charge to unplug for a
29:07period of time . For this , they hired a
29:10firm specializing in research with
29:12university students .
29:14A platform that has 600,000 registered
29:16undergraduate students who have an app ,
29:18and they receive a little notification :
29:20" Hey , there's a survey here , want to
29:21answer it ? " It says , you'll earn $ in
29:2610 minutes .
29:27With this platform , they managed to get
29:29a sample of 1,000 university students
29:31spread across the United States .
29:33For some people , we studied Instagram ,
29:35and for others , TikTok , which are the
29:37two most popular social media apps
29:39among young people , right ? The protocol
29:42starts by just saying that there is a
29:43survey , how much the respondent gets ,
29:45and how much time is spent .
29:47Then it starts giving more information ,
29:49of course . And then the moment in the
29:50survey arrives that says : " Look ,
29:51our goal is to identify how much we
29:53need to pay you to quit social media
29:55for a period of time . "
29:57At this point , it asks the person : " Oh ,
29:59are you interested ? And if you are
30:01interested , we're going to need , we'll
30:03need your Instagram handle . "
30:05At this stage , when the survey asks for
30:07the username , several people drop out .
30:10Because I don't want to give it due to
30:12privacy issues , man , or even because of
30:14FOMO , right ?
30:15Fear of missing out , remember ?
30:17I don't even want to think about not
30:18using social media for a period of time
30:20. So , so there is a selection at this
30:22moment .
30:22And then the questionnaire starts a
30:24research protocol that is similar to an
30:26auction ,
30:26based on binary choices . For example ,
30:30would you rather earn $ 50 and be
30:32forced to stop using it for a month or
30:34earn zero and keep using it , 60 , zero ,
30:3670 ? We make these binary choices and
30:40say that basically one of them will be
30:42drawn and what they chose will be
30:44implemented , get it ?
30:46With this , Leonardo and his colleagues
30:47identified an average value for which
30:49that group of people would agree to go
30:51a month without using the networks .
30:53You have to pay more or less about $ 50
30:56per month , for both Instagram and
30:58TikTok , for the person to stop using it
31:00for a month .
31:02And this wasn't a big surprise , because
31:04as we've already said , other studies
31:05had already reached similar conclusions
31:07. And if they stopped the study at this
31:10stage , social media would look good in
31:12the market .
31:13You would reach the conclusion that
31:15these young people really value these
31:17platforms a lot .
31:18And for a long time , many people took
31:20this value of social media as truth .
31:22There have been several economists in
31:24recent years who , based on this type of
31:26calculation , reached the conclusion
31:27that GDP is much higher because digital
31:29platforms create a lot of value for
31:31people . So you , people already start to
31:34think that this is evidence that they
31:36create a lot of value .
31:37Then they went further .
31:43Okay . And how much do you have to pay
31:45the same person if they aren't the only
31:47one being paid ? Could it be that a
31:50person has to be paid much less when
31:52they know others around them are also
31:53being paid to stop using it during that
31:55period ? For that , they created a second
31:58stage in the questionnaire .
31:59Look , we're doing this study in several
32:02universities , and at your university ,
32:04if we reach two-thirds of your peers ,
32:07right ? In other words , if two-thirds of
32:09the research participants agreed to
32:11accept money to leave social media for
32:12a period ,
32:14we will pay a larger group , a large
32:16group of students to stop using
32:17Instagram for a month . In this case , we
32:21will have two options and we want to
32:22know what you would prefer in each of
32:24these cases , because we will choose one
32:25of these two and implement it . Option
32:28one , let's say we reach two-thirds of
32:30the students and we decide to pay
32:32everyone the minimum amount for them to
32:34deactivate . If we do that for everyone ,
32:37how much would I have to pay you ?
32:39And did the result change ?
32:42The same people , when you say that
32:44other university peers will also stop
32:47using social media during the month ,
32:50you have to pay them much less . The
32:52value decreased between one-fourth and
32:54one-third ,
32:55which indicates that the network is
32:57really one of the things that gives
32:59value to social media , which is
33:00something perhaps obvious , but we were
33:02able to measure it .
33:04But again , they went further . And it's
33:06in this third step that the real trick
33:08lies .
33:09Third moment , we ask , okay , now if we
33:11really reach two-thirds of the students
33:13, if we have the money to pay everyone
33:16to stop using it , we will choose one
33:18person to decide what will be done . And
33:21if it's you , what would you prefer ?
33:23That we keep things as they are ? People
33:26continue using social media or
33:28implement this idea of deactivating for
33:31a month at the university ? Which one do
33:34they prefer and how much are they
33:35willing to pay to be in one scenario
33:36versus the other , right ? This is the
33:38question that is the great insight and
33:40novelty of the paper .
33:41And it was a great novelty , mainly
33:43because of the result , which
33:44surprisingly was the inverse of the
33:46previous one .
33:48Sometimes the people you have to pay to
33:51stop using social media alone are
33:52willing to pay to quit it along with
33:54others . The experiment showed that on
33:59average , Instagram users are willing to
34:01pay $ 10 so that a large group of
34:02people , including themselves ,
34:04deactivates the network . On TikTok , the
34:07amount goes up to $ 8 . In the case of
34:11Instagram , 48 % of users are willing to
34:14pay something for this group
34:16deactivation . In the case of TikTok ,
34:19that number rises to 64 % . That's where
34:23we see that , in fact , saying and
34:25concluding that they have a positive
34:27value for social media use just because
34:30you have to pay them to stop using it
34:32alone is a wrong conclusion , because
34:34they actually assign a negative value
34:36to the product as a whole , to the
34:38market . If they could choose , instead
34:41of having a positive value , we find
34:43that for many people , the market , the
34:45product actually has a negative value .
34:47So , in the case of Instagram , half of
34:50the users ,
34:51almost half , yeah ,
34:52would pay to escape that trap .
34:56Yeah .
34:57And Leonardo , when you thought of this ,
34:59what was your hypothesis ? Were you
35:01thinking of a percentage ? Did you think
35:03most people were in that situation ?
35:05What did you think before creating the
35:07experiment ? I thought it would be
35:09interesting if some people felt that
35:12way . If someone had asked me " almost
35:13half , more or less half , " I would have
35:15said : " Are you crazy ? That's too much ,
35:17right ? " " A lot of people would think :
35:19imagine a product where almost half of
35:21the users wanted the product not to
35:23exist . " It's crazy , but that's the
35:25issue of the trap , right ? The trap is :
35:27I'm at university , I don't have
35:29Instagram , people will think I'm a
35:30weird guy , I won't participate in
35:31conversations , I won't know what other
35:33people are doing on the weekend , they
35:35won't invite me , and so on . So I hate
35:37it , but I have to use it .
35:39And Leonardo , it's interesting because
35:41your proposal was : we're going to shut
35:43down Instagram on campus , right ? So
35:47if we're taking away family , friends ,
35:50uh , I mean ,
35:51probably if you could say : " No , we're
35:53going to take away Instagram in general
35:55, " perhaps that rate would increase
35:57even more , right ?
35:58Yes . That's a good question . We , that's
36:00the issue we had to deal with because
36:02we wanted to do something that was
36:03incentivized , a real decision , right ?
36:06And that imposed limitations , right ?
36:08Because they needed to work with the
36:10real possibility of disabling the
36:12networks , and doing that within the
36:14campus for a set period is possible ,
36:16but disabling Instagram and TikTok for
36:18everyone is not .
36:20But we did something more hypothetical ,
36:22a hypothetical thing , a question is :
36:24would you prefer to live in a world
36:25with or without Instagram ? Just a
36:27question , something general , right ? And
36:30we also see very high fractions , close
36:32to about 40 , 50 % more or less of the
36:35surveyed young Instagram users in this
36:37context would prefer that Instagram
36:39didn't exist .
36:4157 % of Instagram users said they would
36:44prefer to live in a world without
36:46Instagram . And to better understand the
36:57insanity of this result , think of a
36:59parallel with a normal product , a
37:01refrigerator , for example .
37:04Imagine if you asked and 40 % of people
37:05who have a fridge said : " I wish the
37:07fridge didn't exist , but I have a
37:09fridge . " It's something like that ,
37:11it's bizarre , man .
37:12Bizarre , right ? For you to notice in a
37:14common product , but that's what's
37:15happening with social media right now .
37:17And it's not a small fraction , it's a
37:19very high fraction of users . Not only
37:21are they in the trap , but they are
37:22aware that they are in the trap . That's
37:23another interesting point , right ? It
37:25could be that many people are trapped ,
37:27but they they don't have this this
37:28awareness , they don't know . So , maybe
37:31it's even more , maybe there are more
37:32people who are trapped and don't have
37:34this awareness that , man , I have to ban
37:36, I have to take this off , I'm trapped .
37:38And when you see young people ,
37:40undergrads , 18 to 22 years old , they
37:42already have this awareness that it's a
37:44product that does harm , but they have
37:45no choice , it implies that there is
37:47something very wrong happening , right ?
37:55And then you , my pragmatic ,
37:56disconnected listener , might be
37:57wondering , okay , but why does all this
37:59crowd stay on the networks ? Leonardo
38:04Burstin and his colleagues asked about
38:06this .
38:07The most cited reason is actually FOMO .
38:11Among the people who remain on
38:12Instagram , despite saying they would
38:14prefer to live in a world without the
38:16platform , 80 % said they stay there
38:18because of the so-called FOMO . Fear of
38:21missing out . Fear of being left out .
38:24Which is even interesting that perhaps
38:26the value , the number we would find
38:27would be even higher , as several people
38:29who didn't even want to join the study
38:31were so afraid of the idea of being
38:32without social media that they didn't
38:34want to enter the study .
38:37As for other reasons why people stay on
38:40social media , 20 % said they stay for
38:42entertainment , 15 % for access to
38:45information , 7 % for convenience and
38:47productivity , and 10 % because they were
38:49addicted . As Carla Cavaleiro Moura
38:56explained to me , it's not easy to
38:57define the exact number of people who
38:59are actually dependent on technology ,
39:02due to various socioeconomic , cultural ,
39:05environmental , and personality factors .
39:09Still ,
39:10it's estimated , and I'm speaking very
39:12broadly , that 3 to 6 % of the population
39:14suffers from technology addiction . This
39:17issue of addiction is , to me , crucial
39:19in this discussion about social media .
39:22And one way to put everything into
39:23perspective is to look at alcohol
39:25dependence , which is also a tricky
39:26thing to measure . But studies show that
39:294 % of Brazilians have a dangerous
39:31consumption pattern with the potential
39:33for dependence . These numbers are
39:36similar to those for technology
39:37addiction , and that made me think it
39:39was a good idea to investigate this
39:40parallel further . To do that , I went to
39:43talk to someone who looks at this whole
39:45issue from a more personal point of
39:47view . What do you think is important
39:49for the people listening to us to know
39:51about you ? Well , my name is Maria ,
39:54though that is a fictional name . I'm 44
39:59years old , I'm in my third relationship
40:03, I have two children , and I discovered
40:07my illness 2 years and 3 months ago ,
40:11which is alcoholism .
40:14Since this isn't an episode about
40:16alcoholism , I asked Maria to give me a
40:17quick summary of her relationship with
40:19addiction . We only manage to identify
40:23the illness when you hit rock bottom ,
40:26because until then , you see it as part
40:29of you , even with observations from
40:35relatives or people close to you , like ,
40:36you don't know how to drink , you need
40:38to learn how to drink , you need to have
40:40limits . For me , I was always within my
40:45limits , and even when I had blackouts
40:48and couldn't remember what happened , I
40:50thought that was normal . Sobriety
40:55itself was a moment of boredom , a
40:59moment of dull normality . I needed to
41:03drink to be able to disconnect from
41:07that .
41:08Did you drink every day ?
41:10The last 7 years , after a loss I
41:13experienced . My mother passed away , and
41:16it was gradual . I started drinking , you
41:20know , more times a week , sometimes with
41:22limits , sometimes without . So , on
41:24Thursday , Friday , and Saturday , I would
41:26drink without limits . I would buy 18
41:29small bottles and drink 12 . As much as
41:32I could handle .
41:34What were those little bottles ?
41:36Uh , beer . And on Monday , Tuesday , and
41:38Wednesday , I would have one , I would
41:42have two , but it was always there . When
41:47the pandemic arrived , every day became
41:49limitless , and eventually they reached
41:5218 , 24 hours . Every day there was a
41:56blackout . So I would watch TV until 1
42:00or 2 in the morning , sometimes three ,
42:02just to stay awake longer , to be able
42:05to drink more and more . And then the
42:08next day I’d wake up with a moral
42:10hangover , with a physical hangover . It
42:13was horrible to work until 4 p.m. After
42:16that , my body would start to hydrate ,
42:19the hangover feeling would have passed ,
42:21and by 6 p.m. I was ready to start the
42:24drinking all over again .
42:27How was the issue of withdrawal for you
42:30? What is the feeling of trying not to
42:34drink like ?
42:35The shakes , cold sweats , anxiety
42:38attacks , and I would get so tense that
42:42my hands would stiffen up . And then I
42:46needed to drink for that to go away .
42:49And Maria , let me ask you something . Do
42:51you use social media ?
42:53I do .
42:55What is your relationship like with
42:57social media ? With Instagram , TikTok , I
42:59don't know which social network you
43:00usually use ?
43:02I’ve always been very strict about
43:04the information I posted on them . So , I
43:07never had that problem with social
43:09media . Maria told me she uses social
43:11networks as a form of distraction , but
43:13what's interesting to me is that she ,
43:15as someone who knows the dangers of
43:17addiction , takes a series of
43:19precautions against Instagram , Facebook
43:21, and the like .
43:23I don’t have any on my phone ,
43:24precisely so I don't waste time there ,
43:27which to me is time that won't come
43:29back , right ? So it really is wasted
43:32time and it’s something that
43:33fascinates you . For me to access them ,
43:37I have to open my laptop , which for me
43:39is a bit laborious , because it's a
43:41house with three laptops and only one
43:43desk , so I don't have easy access to it
43:46, so I don't get holed up in it . So , I
43:50already avoid accessing them .
43:52But you avoid it because you see a risk
43:55there .
43:57It’s a risk for everyone , right ? I
43:59see with my children that the phone is
44:02part of their body , right ? Everything
44:05they do , they do with their phone in
44:07hand and always connected to a network .
44:10And for me , it was already difficult to
44:13find myself when I stopped drinking ,
44:15right ? I had no identity , I didn't know
44:18who I was , because I had a persona when
44:20I was drinking . And seeing my children
44:24basing their behavior on others to
44:26build their personality makes me sick
44:28to my stomach . It makes me very angry ,
44:31and I don't want that for myself either
44:33. I avoid it completely so I don't lose
44:36my essence .
44:37How much time on the network , do you
44:39know how much time they spend on social
44:40media ? How long are they plugged in
44:42every day ? Yes ,
44:44roughly speaking here for you , if they
44:47stay awake for 15 hours , I can tell you
44:52that 13 hours are spent plugged into
44:56networks .
44:58There are studies showing that the
45:00brain circuitry involved in chemical
45:02dependencies ,
45:03Carla Cavalheiro Moura ,
45:05is very similar to the brain circuitry
45:07involved in behavioral addictions . Of
45:12course , if we compare some things ,
45:14right , in terms of a crack user versus
45:17a technology addiction user , there are
45:20specificities , but components of
45:23excessive use , increasing use , and
45:26escalation are present . When we look
45:31back at the construction of this
45:33dependency , we realize that this person
45:36started using it recreationally . Some
45:41say we are the society of distraction .
45:44So , we need to be entertained and
45:47distracted all the time . And what
45:50information am I giving my brain when
45:52I'm entertaining and distracting myself
45:53all the time ? So , I'm here at the
45:56computer doing something super boring
45:58for my work . Then I go on Instagram and
46:00see something cool . And there's a whole
46:05design to social media that was created
46:08, broadly speaking Tomás , to get us
46:10addicted . So we have autoplay , infinite
46:16feeds , algorithms , which is wow , you
46:19stop what is boring , get a little dose
46:23of dopamine there , when will your brain
46:27stop that ? In some people , this will be
46:31very functional , it will be very
46:32organic , very natural . So , for example ,
46:36if we talk about child and adolescent
46:38brains , being a child or adolescent is
46:41already a pre-exposure , a risk factor ,
46:43so to speak ,
46:45because the brain is , it is more
46:47elastic too , right ?
46:48Yes . And it lacks important functions
46:52like the one that regulates impulsivity
46:54, which is here in the prefrontal
46:57cortex , because our brain develops from
46:59back to front . The last part to develop
47:03is this area here for this youth and
47:05child to develop self-regulation , which
47:08is what we do , what you do , Tomás , and
47:10what I do when I go on Instagram . And
47:14then the child becomes dominated by
47:16that reward environment
47:19that is highly stimulating .
47:21And then this will shape their brain in
47:24a way that they have more difficulty
47:26containing these impulses .
47:29Actually , she really can't help it
47:31because she lacks the tools to contain
47:34those impulses . This frontal part
47:38doesn't just control impulses ; it also
47:39controls things like anticipating risky
47:41situations . That’s why teenagers are
47:44always like , " Wow , I didn't think , "
47:46right ? Because they have that
47:47difficulty . So , when excessive use
47:50occurs , we aren't helping these
47:54children and teens develop the tools
47:57needed to learn self-regulation . That
48:01frontal area only finishes developing
48:03around age 24 or 25 . It’s the last
48:06part to form , right ?
48:07It’s the final part of the brain to
48:08develop , moving from back to front .
48:10I saw a video of yours talking about
48:12the similarities to casinos , right ? To
48:16what extent can we say they were
48:18actually designed to be addictive ? Just
48:21like cigarettes , right ? Cigarettes were
48:23designed — we know today that companies
48:26engineered them to be more addictive ,
48:29right ? How do you see this issue on
48:31social media , Carla ? People have
48:34already gone public saying things like
48:36that . Aza Raskin also spoke about the
48:40infinite feed , right ? The
48:43Araskin was the guy who invented
48:45infinite scroll . We featured his
48:48statement and dove deep into the impact
48:51of this invention in episode 31 , which
48:53is the first part of a trilogy about
48:55the impact of the internet on our lives
48:58. How do these companies monetize your
49:01attention and engagement ? There are
49:05teams working on how to keep you there .
49:10It’s not necessarily that they want
49:12to addict us , but this method of
49:14keeping us there is somehow making us
49:17dependent . What was it like in the past
49:20? You would pick up a magazine , flip
49:23through it , and the magazine had an end
49:25. Today , we don't have that " stop "
49:28signal . So , those cues on social media
49:32are either subtle or nonexistent .
49:35At the same time ,
49:37there is no government regulation to
49:41impose limits on these companies . So ,
49:47there are no boundaries .
49:49And the icing on the cake is the
49:50phenomenon of media convergence ,
49:52which is the convergence of gambling
49:55with , for example , video games . This is
49:58very dangerous because we see gambling
50:00disguised as video games .
50:02It's more or less like every human on
50:05the planet living 24/7 with a virtual
50:07Las Vegas , a ubiquitous slot machine ,
50:09always at their fingertips .
50:12When we are scrolling through the feed ,
50:14it’s like we’re working a slot
50:16machine , this intermittency where you
50:18don't know what’s coming , you don't
50:21know how many likes you'll get , you
50:23don't know exactly when they'll show up
50:25. It makes you stay more glued , because
50:28if you know when it’s going to happen
50:31, you only go when it happens . If you
50:34know it won't happen , you don't waste
50:35your time . This unpredictability of
50:38when things happen , that they happen
50:41randomly , is what brings this component
50:44of obsessive , impulsive checking , and
50:46it can cause , uh , this dependency ,
50:49right , of you staying there for hours
50:51and hours and neglecting very important
50:54factors in your life . So I asked Carla
50:57Cavalheiro Moura if she sees a parallel
50:59with our relationship with other
51:01addictive substances . Will we treat
51:03social media in the future the way we
51:05treat cigarettes today ?
51:07Look , I myself was a smoker when I was
51:0918 , today I'm 56 . And at the time I
51:13smoked , it was the most beautiful thing
51:15to smoke , because there were these ads
51:17with cowboys and wonderful women and
51:19that was sensational . So , all I wanted
51:22when I was 14 , 15 years old was to turn
51:2518 and smoke . Only many , many , many
51:28years later , and then all the campaigns
51:30came , did we realize how harmful it was
51:32. We already knew , but not that much .
51:36Regarding technology , we might realize
51:39it down the line when we look at the
51:41kids and say : " Man , I let this child
51:44have the phone too much and it was
51:46highly damaging to them . " Look at how
51:49dangerous this is . " Do you think it
51:52should be prohibited for children up to
51:54a certain age ? " Do you think it should ?
51:57It already is , right ? There is already
52:00a manual from the Brazilian Society of
52:02Pediatrics that recommends no screens
52:05should be given to children before the
52:07age of two . No type of screen .
52:09Two years old . But two years , isn't two
52:11years too little , because I don't know ,
52:13my six-year-old son , for example , I try
52:15to keep him away from the phone like
52:16the devil avoids the cross . No. And
52:19then it says that from two to five you
52:22should give them at most one hour with
52:25total monitoring , from five to ten you
52:27can reach two hours , and from then on
52:30you shouldn't exceed three hours . And
52:35so , Tomás , every time I've given my
52:37son , my daughter , a child , or a
52:39teenager a social network , a phone , or
52:41some technology , it's important that
52:43you see what they're doing . I ask
52:47parents : " What game does your child
52:48play ? " " I don't know . " You don't even
52:51know the name ? No , not even the name .
52:54Then I say stop everything , let's not
52:56start psychotherapy yet . You are going
52:59to sit down with your child and watch
53:00them play their game .
53:02I asked Leonardo Burstin about the
53:04issue of dependency , as he has
53:05obviously thought quite a bit about the
53:07subject .
53:07The point is , it's an interesting thing
53:09to be studied : to what extent do these
53:11two factors , the social trap and
53:13addiction , which is an individual thing
53:15, interact ? Maybe you fall into it
53:18because of the trap , and then you have
53:19to keep checking in to stay socially
53:21relevant with your friends . Then ,
53:24suddenly , before you know it , you're
53:25addicted , right ? So there is a bit of
53:27this interaction between the two
53:28factors , isn't there ? And when I asked
53:31how we can try to get out of this trap ,
53:34Leonardo , living up to the University
53:36of Chicago school of thought , gave a
53:38little boost to the invisible hand of
53:41the market .
53:42To what extent will companies
53:44themselves begin to anticipate and
53:46perform some self-regulation , adjusting
53:48the product , not scaling it like that ;
53:50to what extent will they have the
53:52incentive to do this without regulatory
53:54pressure or public opinion pressure ?
53:58That is something we need to keep an
54:00eye on . Finally , I also think that
54:03something that will start to appear are
54:05decentralized and private solutions ,
54:07right ? For example , look , this is
54:10something I haven't disclosed until
54:12today , but I'll take this opportunity
54:13to talk about it . I , for instance ,
54:17created an app , an app that helps young
54:19people coordinate to spend less time
54:21using social media .
54:24And how will this app work ? Will it be
54:26like a parallel social network where
54:28people interact there instead of
54:30interacting through Instagram or
54:32actually , there are several ways . What
54:35I developed was an app where you form a
54:38group with friends and decide to take
54:40on a challenge to spend less time on
54:42social media , and at the end of the
54:44period , in this case two weeks , we
54:47check who met the challenge and who
54:49didn't . And if everyone meets it , we
54:53make a donation to a charity of the
54:54group's choosing . So there is a reward .
54:58That is one solution , there may be
55:00others in the future , but there are
55:02ways to design products , since there's
55:04that Chicago School emulation , right ?
55:07The market often solves problems , right
55:09? It is possible to create a private
55:12solution , but I think in the end it
55:14will be a combination , it will be a
55:16combination because the government has
55:18a role at least in raising awareness
55:20among people , right ? Of running
55:23campaigns , providing information ,
55:24reaching out to parents and saying : "
55:25Look , do you think you're helping your
55:27child ? " Actually , no , you are creating
55:29a problem .
55:30And in economic terms , I imagine that
55:32the almost monopolistic condition of
55:34these companies also gets in the way ,
55:37right ?
55:37Yes . There is something we discuss
55:41briefly in the paper , that when a
55:43network is too large , it becomes a more
55:46powerful trap . I'll give an example .
55:49Let's say you were to split the world
55:52in half . In each location , half of the
55:56people could use Instagram and 50 % would
55:59have to use another product . When you
56:03limit the size of the network at the
56:05local level , you diminish the trap .
56:10Because if 90 % of people use Instagram ,
56:11then the only way to communicate with
56:13others is by using Instagram . So you
56:15have to have Instagram . It is very
56:16costly for you not to be on Instagram .
56:17This cost is reflected in the survey
56:19numbers . Among people who are not users
56:22of these networks , the percentage of
56:23those who would like to live in a world
56:25without them is slightly higher . In the
56:28case of Instagram , it increases from 57
56:30to 58.5 % .
56:32But it's limited to 50 % and the other
56:34half is using another product . So , to
56:36communicate with everyone , you have to
56:38use something else , right ? You're not
56:40forcing anyone to use one product . And
56:47speaking of forcing someone to use a
56:49product , how do suede loafers fit into
56:51this whole story ?
56:53At the end of our paper , we ask
56:54hypothetically , right ? Have you ever
56:57bought any product from these brands ?
56:59You list a bunch of brands , like Rolex ,
57:01a long list .
57:02The survey , unfortunately , doesn't ask
57:04any questions specifically about suede
57:06loafers , but anyway , it's a metaphor ,
57:08right ?
57:10Yeah . Then we ask : " Would you prefer to
57:12live in a world with or without these
57:14brands ? " And look , among the people who
57:15own these brands , who paid to buy them ,
57:1740 % would prefer they didn't exist . So ,
57:21perhaps this type of trap is more
57:23common than we imagined . Leonardo
57:30Bustin's research is called When
57:32Products Become Collective Traps : The
57:35Case of Social Media . It was published
57:39in October 2023 , and you can find the
57:43link in the episode description . Before
58:20we finish , I’d like to invite you
58:22once again to check out the podcast
58:24Pauta Pública , our partner at Rádio
58:25Guarda-chuva . On the show , once a week ,
58:28journalists from Agência Pública
58:30interview interesting people about
58:32topics making headlines in Brazil and
58:34around the world . Look for Pauta
58:37Pública in your audio app , give it a
58:39listen , and you won’t regret it . This
58:48marks the end of episode 114 of
58:51Escafandro . Thanks for listening , and
58:54until our next dive . Hello , this is
59:09Michele Dexum , and I’m speaking from
59:11Stellenbosch , South Africa . This
59:18episode featured production and editing
59:20support from Mateus Marcolino . The
59:23sound mixing is by Vitor Coroa . The
59:26theme soundtrack is by Paulo Gama . The
59:29cover design is by Cláudia Furnari .
59:32Direction , script , and editing are by
59:35Tomas Averini .