Full transcript
0:00a Jason fladlin here I have for you
0:03today the legend himself Sam Evans Sam
0:07is a gentleman that I find very
0:09interesting very uh intellectual and
0:11also
0:12um high-level strategist who's been able
0:14to build someone like one of the biggest
0:18brands I think in the information space
0:19in the Consulting space with what he's
0:21done I don't know how many tens of
0:23millions of dollars uh you've sold Sam
0:25but it's impressive and not just that
0:27the people that you've helped grow or
0:29start their business and be successful
0:31put you in a rarified air of individuals
0:35who are really good at what they do and
0:37as good at teaching it to help others
0:40get results as well Sam anything else I
0:43need to say about you so these people
0:44understand the importance of what we're
0:45going to talk about here today
0:48that's that's good
0:50that's good I like that all right so so
0:53briefly just to kind of set the stage
0:55how did you get where you're at right
0:57now like walk us back through your first
1:00successes then the high points of your
1:02career like where you were killing it
1:04and then what made you pivot to the
1:06focus of what we're talking about here
1:07today which is building Community for
1:10creators and the platform you created
1:12called School
1:13sure so
1:17I
1:20started out by you know I had a
1:23corporate job then
1:25um I went to my girlfriend at the time's
1:27Friends beach house which turned out to
1:31be like a private island
1:32and I was like in shock there was a
1:35helicopter there and stuff and I said
1:37um what does this guy do
1:39and they said he's an entrepreneur
1:42and that was the first time I ever
1:44really thought about becoming an
1:45entrepreneur and then like I started
1:47Googling what is an entrepreneur and all
1:49of this and that's when I decided I
1:50wanted to try being an entrepreneur
1:52because I was like this looks pretty
1:53cool
1:55um
1:55and I started my first few businesses
1:57that were like failures and they were
1:59apps I was building like apps for
2:01different things
2:03um because I had no idea what I was
2:04doing and then
2:06I started listening to entrepreneur
2:08interviews on this website called
2:09mixergy you remember that I do not know
2:12it's old school it was like this guy was
2:15Andrew Warner was interviewing
2:16entrepreneurs before anyone else was
2:18doing it
2:19um
2:20and I would just listen to these
2:21interviews with entrepreneurs and then
2:23this one guy came on and his name was
2:25like Dane Maxwell you heard of him I
2:28have yeah yeah and he had he was talking
2:32about how he started his software
2:34company and then he said that he was
2:35going to start a course with a group of
2:38people and he was going to teach them
2:39how to start a software company
2:41and I enrolled in that and that course
2:44taught me
2:46that took me from knowing nothing and
2:48just like having no idea what I was
2:50doing to like actually having some kind
2:53of framework to follow and that and it
2:55worked I started a software company
2:57called Snap inspect it was successful I
3:00was the like star student of that course
3:03um and
3:06the problem was like I didn't like my
3:10market I was building for property
3:11managers
3:12and
3:14because I was like the star student of
3:15that course a lot of the members of that
3:17course wanted to know like how I did it
3:21and I started coaching them one-on-one
3:23like just selling six one-hour Skype
3:26calls for a grand
3:28um
3:29and they started to get some good
3:31success and then I noticed I was
3:33repeating myself a lot so I figured her
3:35this could probably be a course
3:37and so I made a course just because I
3:40was I sold all the time I possibly could
3:42on Skype
3:43and I launched that course to my little
3:45email list which was only 3 000 people
3:48back then
3:49and it made 300 grand
3:51um
3:52and I was like shocked
3:55um and I really just fell in love with
3:57courses so I sold my software company to
4:00my business partner and I went all in on
4:02courses and then that Journey led me I I
4:06really focused on courses for about
4:09eight or nine years right
4:12um
4:13and the company I built there was called
4:15consulting.com we had three courses a 2K
4:18a 6K and a 36k mastermind
4:22and at the peak of that we we scaled it
4:24to about 36 million dollars a year
4:27um
4:28and then
4:30you know along that journey I realized
4:32that
4:34the tools I was using were frustrating
4:37like kajabi and these other tools
4:40Facebook groups right
4:42um
4:43and I realized that you know courses had
4:46started as just like a static content
4:49experience like you would buy access to
4:52it and you would get videos basically
4:54but the internet changed and social
4:58networking you know was invented and
5:01that thread was kind of woven into this
5:03thing
5:04um and course creators were starting to
5:06add their customers or students into
5:08like a Facebook group and now courses
5:11were a multiplayer experience right
5:14and then I couldn't help but notice the
5:16stats like the community was used more
5:19than the course
5:20and then people were like doing really
5:23cool things like meeting up in person
5:25practicing things with each other and I
5:27noticed that when they had a success
5:29they would thank people in the community
5:31and when they gave testimonials they'd
5:33say the community is worth it is worth
5:36more than the price of the course alone
5:39so I noticed that and that was
5:40interesting
5:42and then I noticed that the traditional
5:45course platforms like kajabi thinkific
5:48teachable you know Coursera whatever
5:52um their or udemy is another one
5:55um they would just focused solely on
5:57that static content experience
5:59and they would completely oblivious to
6:01the what was actually going on which was
6:04these more social interactive
6:06experiences
6:08um
6:09and so then I looked at Facebook and
6:12they seemed to be making really poor
6:14choices
6:15and the perception of the platform and
6:18the experience of being on the platform
6:19was degrading rapidly right so I could
6:22kind of look forward
6:24and into the future and I was very
6:27confident that I could see what was
6:29going to happen like the course platform
6:32providers wouldn't build community
6:34and the community provider which was
6:36like Facebook groups
6:37would get worse and worse and worse to
6:40the point that there would be this Gap
6:42in the market for this platform where
6:45someone would combine community and
6:48courses together basically the perfect
6:51combination of like a Facebook group in
6:53a kajabi Content board altogether
6:56um
6:56and I was pretty confident that that
6:58would be the case so
7:00I decided this was about three and a
7:03half years ago now I decided to just go
7:06all in and like start school
7:08um
7:09and then you know building it was really
7:11hard
7:13um so that's why it was I started
7:14building it three and a half years ago
7:16and now today we here we are and
7:19school's the real thing and people are
7:21using it for what we're talking about
7:23wow and we're in 2023 at the time of
7:26this recording so just to put in context
7:29um you had said something to me on our
7:31last conversation that we had in private
7:33where you were showing me different
7:34communities as examples can you talk
7:36about that on how kind of the economics
7:39in the in the market has changed over
7:40the years in terms of opportunity
7:44what do you mean so you went and you
7:46showed me you said look at this
7:48community over here it's 10 bucks but
7:50these are these are the kind of people
7:51who can buy this and this is why we
7:54should focus more on those types as
7:55opposed to the traditional model like
7:57you said earlier your courses were
7:59something like 3K 6K or 36k or some very
8:03high ticket number right
8:05um but is that going to sell to like a
8:0820 something year old who's used to
8:10being on a Discord and has a different
8:12kind of notion of investing in
8:15information products
8:17yeah so
8:20I don't think that yes
8:24what we're talking about here is the
8:26younger generation like because there's
8:28quite a bit to this I think so we can
8:30kind of unpack it so like if you look at
8:32what the younger generation is doing
8:34like the Gen Z people that were never
8:36exposed to direct response they never
8:39like saw Jeff Walker's product launch
8:42formula or Russell brunson's webinar
8:44Secrets like they didn't see any of that
8:46and they never bought a course from
8:47Brendan Bouchard or Frank Kern or
8:49anything so like they didn't follow
8:51those conventional patterns right they
8:55just kind of did what felt natural to
8:57them
8:58um and I thought it was quite
8:59interesting what they did so
9:02they tend to have a Discord server right
9:06and then they charge a monthly
9:08subscription for it right and if you
9:11want to check out some of these things
9:12you can look at wap.com
9:14whop.com they're like a Marketplace for
9:17all of these kinds of like things and
9:19people are teaching like stock trading
9:22crypto trading and things the vast
9:24majority of the people on there are
9:26probably like 15 to 20 years old
9:29um and the average price point is
9:31anywhere from like 10 to 100 bucks a
9:35month right
9:38um
9:39and some of these people make 100 Grand
9:41a month this way right which is
9:43interesting
9:45um
9:45and it's not just a Discord server they
9:48also have a course too right
9:50but I thought that was quite interesting
9:52how they were like
9:54how they were doing that
9:56um they thought about the Community
9:58First and it's mostly your buying access
10:00to the community and then there's also
10:02some content whereas the older school
10:04people they are more like all about the
10:07content and then the community was like
10:09an afterthought but also the business
10:11model changes when you focus on
10:13Community First it's like subscription
10:16makes perfect sense
10:18because it's a membership and I think
10:21the problem with selling static content
10:24the way we've done it traditionally is
10:26that
10:28everyone wishes they had monthly
10:30recurring Revenue right
10:32but there was no good way to charge a
10:36monthly recurring price for static
10:38content it just didn't make sense a
10:41mastermind makes sense for occurring
10:43because it has events and calls and
10:45things right but a course doesn't but
10:48when you frame it the other way like
10:50it's the community and there's also
10:52course content it does make sense so
10:55yeah there's
10:57that's something I found really
10:59interesting
11:00um and I think that kind of style is
11:03more the future to be honest
11:06um
11:07however that doesn't mean that like
11:09selling High ticket is going anywhere
11:11right like high ticket is perfect for
11:15B2B
11:17right
11:18um selling a 36k mastermind or like a 6K
11:22High ticket program with a phone call or
11:25something that isn't going anywhere
11:26that's still the best model right the
11:29problem is is that you just if you're
11:31starting out you can't charge six or 25
11:35grand for something
11:37it's a huge Jump Plus you've got to do
11:40sales calls and and like people
11:42don't want to do those
11:44um
11:45so really if you know for the mass
11:49Market I think this is the new way the
11:51Community First charging a monthly
11:54subscription and for the people that are
11:56already doing High ticket I think the
11:59low ticket subscription Community is the
12:01perfect front end
12:02[Music]
12:04because you can if you could just build
12:06a funnel that got took paid traffic and
12:09turned it into a paid monthly subscriber
12:13and it could break even on month one
12:15right so it your it's self liquidating
12:18the ads
12:19and then that's your new email list in a
12:22way
12:23but it's more it's way more interactive
12:25than an email list it's like they can
12:27talk to each other they can consume
12:29content and now you've got a paid member
12:31instead of just a a lead you know what I
12:33mean
12:35then they can start to level up through
12:37your high ticket stuff yeah
12:40yeah so for established businesses
12:43putting a membership on the front end
12:45just makes so much sense because it will
12:46feed the back in uh for somebody who's
12:49starting out creating the community as
12:52as the the tip of the spear so to speak
12:54and then if they want to later on they
12:57could then graduate themselves to
12:58selling a 6K or even a higher ticket
13:01thing on the back and once they have a
13:02rocking Community but even if they don't
13:05the lifetime value of the customer is
13:08much higher because they're paying over
13:11and over again each and every single
13:13month as opposed to just trying to sell
13:15them one thing at a time
13:17exactly
13:18and I think the community is the perfect
13:20way to start because
13:23you don't really know what to make in
13:25the beginning if you're a beginner right
13:27and if you're just sitting there looking
13:29at like PowerPoint or keynote thinking
13:31like what how can I make a course it's
13:34really hard
13:36um and so by just getting people in a
13:39community and that Community could just
13:41be free right if someone's a total
13:43beginner step one is to figure out like
13:45what is your niche
13:47and then step two is like how can you
13:50talk to people in that Niche and see see
13:53what they need and so just getting like
13:55five ten people into a community for
13:58free and then just starting to interact
14:00with them trying to help them you'll
14:04you'll start to figure out what they
14:05want you can start to create that
14:07content piece by piece and see how they
14:10react to it and and you can sort of
14:12start to build out
14:14you know enough content in there as
14:17you're interacting with these people and
14:19if they start to have some kind of
14:21success
14:22then you know you've got like
14:25the
14:26the concept the proof of concept for
14:28something that you could charge money
14:30for and then you could charge money for
14:32the new members that come in and then
14:34you keep making it better you get more
14:36case studies and testimonials
14:38and then when a lot of your customers
14:41have had a lot of success and they've
14:43for if they've like made more money than
14:45what they paid you
14:47didn't then their natural instinct is to
14:50want to go to another level
14:51and that's when you add on your next
14:54thing right and so naturally you'll
14:56still end up in the same spot with like
14:57a mastermind I think and a higher ticket
15:00thing and right
15:02um it's just how do you get there from
15:04zero right
15:06hmm
15:07so what I'm what are mistakes most
15:10people make who are trying to do
15:11community right now
15:16they don't I mean the probably the
15:18number one mistake is they don't even
15:20know what who their Community is for
15:23right I think a lot of people they get
15:25an idea like I want to do a community
15:27but
15:29you know about what for who you know
15:32like these really basic questions
15:36um
15:36so just just clearly defining who is
15:40this thing for
15:41and then getting just those people and
15:45not anyone I think people from social
15:47media have this natural instinct to
15:49think bigger is better and so like they
15:52just try to get anyone in there but
15:54Community it's more about like the
15:57intimacy and the culture and the in the
16:00relationships and quality it's more of a
16:02quality than quantity game
16:04so
16:05you know Define who it's for and be
16:08strict about only getting those people
16:09in
16:10and
16:12then figure out like what they need and
16:15how this community can serve those needs
16:17right
16:19um a perfect example of this is this guy
16:22has this dentist community
16:25um there's like 60 000 dentists in there
16:28and you have to be a practicing dentist
16:30to get in and they actually check right
16:33license practice everything
16:37um
16:38and in there they only talk about
16:41patience and
16:44the different procedures so like they
16:46might share X-rays and then they say
16:49like I've got this case I'm stumped I
16:51don't know what to do here has anyone
16:54else seen something like this and then
16:56the other dentists you know share their
16:58knowledge
17:00um
17:01there's nowhere else in the world where
17:03you can find sixty thousand dentists
17:05together collaborating right
17:08and so it grows purely By Word of Mouth
17:12and
17:14um
17:15it's extremely engaged
17:18and it's the quality of the content is
17:21so high that a few dentists schools in
17:24um America
17:25have made it part of their certified
17:27curriculum
17:30so you know how that's very just well
17:33defined and it's it's not just a
17:35community for anyone to talk about
17:37anything right it's like very specific
17:40um
17:42and so that's like an example of like
17:44what you should do and
17:47and that's probably the biggest mistake
17:48we see people make
17:50they're not they don't have the thing
17:54that you can't find anywhere else like
17:57the example you just gave was that's
17:58literally at the beginning at least
18:02um the first of its kind a place that
18:04was beneficial that didn't exist prior
18:09y'all I think in the past maybe there
18:11was plenty of communities but they might
18:13have been
18:15you know just the people didn't care
18:17about them very much they were loose
18:19about who could get in so some people
18:22get in and they start spamming or they
18:24weren't specific about what the
18:27community was for like this isn't for
18:28discussing accounting or real estate or
18:33or even like hiring or it's only for the
18:37actual cases
18:39right right
18:41so
18:44they just did a they did a good job of
18:46knowing who it's for and like how it
18:49should be used
18:51um
18:52and then with time it got bigger and
18:55then it became something you could
18:57couldn't get anywhere else right
18:59that makes sense so at the beginning it
19:01was very clearly to find
19:04extremely so right and and it was
19:07enforced So Not only was it clearly
19:10defined it was supported in action and
19:13in communication to the audience
19:18how do we go about
19:20finding that for the communities we want
19:22to create what do you recommend there
19:25well I think
19:27you know I think the reason why that
19:29Community existed was because it was
19:31very pure like the guy who started it
19:32was a dentist
19:34and that was his problem he wanted like
19:37a Library of Alexandria kind of of
19:40dental cases
19:43um and so he made what he wanted and he
19:46was passionate about it
19:48um and so it worked so I think
19:51you know it's very important to just
19:54think about like what is your Niche and
19:57who are well who are the people you want
19:59to help
20:00and what is something you care about
20:02deeply
20:04and then
20:05figuring out exactly what they need
20:08which might be a bit blurry in the
20:10beginning right but you will figure that
20:13out like maybe they need help finding
20:18um maybe they need help finding a
20:20Content person or maybe they need help
20:23hiring a media buyer or a copywriter
20:25like maybe it's actually they need to
20:28find someone that can help them
20:31find someone for their role for their
20:34company that's kind of like Cole Gordon
20:36right he helps you get closer
20:39um
20:40and sometimes it's training sometimes
20:44it's
20:45like practicing with somebody else like
20:49they just need accountability
20:51um
20:54it it just depends like what I think one
20:57of the easiest ways to do this is to
20:59Define who it's for and then try to
21:02define the goal like how do you know if
21:04these members have been successful in
21:06here like what what is some objective
21:09point that they could reach in their
21:11life or in their business
21:13that would make this a success and then
21:16your job as the creator of this thing is
21:19to figure out what is the most efficient
21:21path
21:23for these people to get to this point
21:25and that is what you should be iterating
21:27and experimenting with in the community
21:29and building the
21:32best practice for which is ultimately
21:34like manifest in the content right
21:38um
21:39have you ever seen like crystals form in
21:42like a a beaker did you ever do this in
21:45science class yeah like 25 years ago
21:49like some Crystal mix water stuff and
21:52you put like a string in it and you
21:53leave it there and all these crystals
21:55form on it right yeah
21:57that's kind of how I think about a
21:59course it's like first of all you get
22:02some people into this community and you
22:04know what you're trying to do and
22:06everyone's talking to each other and
22:07they're trying to like figure out how
22:09what is the best way to get here
22:12and along that Journey you might figure
22:14some things out and then some members
22:16might figure some things out
22:18and
22:20those are the things that actually kind
22:22of come from the community but then they
22:23get like crystallized in the course
22:27does that make sense so the course is
22:29like the the crystals that are found in
22:32all of this experimentation and then
22:35someone new that comes in just has the
22:37like the documentation to get to where
22:40everyone in the community is real fast
22:42yeah you you kind of formalize what
22:46comes out of the community that you know
22:48is great that organically developed
22:51and then you can take that and make that
22:54a relic if you will or something of a
22:56reference for new members that are
22:57coming in as well as a useful thing for
22:59existing members to review
23:02yeah exactly
23:05um
23:06what are some of the reasons you think
23:08people that want to start a community
23:09beyond what we talked about uh but still
23:12don't are like are they afraid that it's
23:14going to consume too much of their time
23:17um are there what are the issues you see
23:19that people are resistant even though
23:21they know they start a community that
23:23they still haven't yet
23:28um
23:32I honestly think it's a lack of good
23:35examples
23:37hmm
23:39so
23:41you know until you've seen it done and
23:44experienced it right
23:46then you just
23:48you don't believe and you don't have a
23:52something to model
23:54and I think that's where it is right now
23:56um but some like a lot of people want to
23:59start a community but they don't really
24:00know how to do it
24:02um so I would honestly say it's
24:05it's a lack of examples and a lack of
24:08actual
24:10education which is kind of funny for me
24:13because I've come from the course world
24:14we're like all I did was teach people
24:17how to do stuff and now I would say the
24:19number one problem of our
24:21of our customers is they don't know what
24:23to do
24:24um
24:26and so they're just trying all kinds of
24:29things and some people are stumbling on
24:30really good stuff but it hasn't been
24:33like clearly documented and distributed
24:36to everyone
24:38um
24:40yeah
24:42yeah that makes sense are there some
24:44other examples then that you can offer
24:47us that would Inspire us to see really
24:51how ripe this opportunity is
24:57well it totally depends like what your
25:00goal is for it right
25:02um
25:04because you shouldn't just start a
25:05community for no reason I mean if you're
25:08a beginner I think
25:11you know you need to it's very hard if
25:15you're a beginner to just make a course
25:16on something and make money from it
25:17right because what are you going to
25:19teach for who
25:20right
25:22um
25:23so really it's like product it's
25:26Discovery and product development for
25:28people that want to get into the info
25:30game like you need to find a niche and
25:33you need to find a problem and you need
25:35to
25:36find
25:38a good solution that works that people
25:41are willing to pay money for right
25:44and I think the best way to do that is
25:46to
25:47to just make it a community and start
25:50getting those people in and start
25:51collaborating with them the way we built
25:54school was like this like we've got a
25:57community called School community
25:59you couldn't see it at school.com
26:01community
26:04with this is we had this community live
26:06after a few months and we just put
26:09people in it and we got them to use
26:11school and then
26:13on school tell us how we could make
26:15school better
26:16and then we would make school better and
26:19tell them and then they would give us
26:20feedback and we were just you know
26:22iterating like that
26:24um and I honestly can't imagine building
26:27school without that feedback loop right
26:29people are telling me their problems and
26:32what they want I'm listening to all of
26:34them and I'm trying to filter them and
26:36prioritize them and and then execute
26:38them and then I tell them that I did it
26:40and then they give me feedback again and
26:42we just keep going through these Cycles
26:44like this and it gets better and better
26:46and better and you also build trust with
26:49these people because they've they know
26:52you're listening
26:54um
26:54and so
26:56I honestly can't imagine any other way
26:59for building something
27:01it's like it makes life so much easier
27:04you never wonder what do people want
27:06the problem is always how can I do this
27:09how can I give people what they want as
27:12fast as possible like that's the only
27:15problem I have
27:17um
27:18and so
27:20anyone can have that honestly wow and
27:24then I think that is a natural like
27:25marketing and growth mechanism too
27:27because once you've got you know once
27:30people have that experience
27:32they tell other people about it too
27:34they're like this guy listens he makes
27:36things better
27:37and
27:39he's clearly passionate about this right
27:42and so that's very attractive
27:45um now I'm building a platform here but
27:47you could use this exact same kind of
27:50method to build anything like a course
27:54um a community
27:56and I think it can start free you know
27:58we started this school community and
28:01school was free in the beginning
28:03and then we made it better better it
28:06took us about
28:07um
28:08two and a half years before it was good
28:10enough that we thought we could charge
28:12money for it
28:13and then we charge money for it so like
28:15this is this this is what I'm saying for
28:17beginners you can start with something
28:19free
28:20because all you want in the beginning is
28:22someone to tell you their problems
28:25so that you can help them
28:28basically and you don't want to when you
28:31don't have a huge amount of solutions it
28:33doesn't really make sense for someone to
28:35pay and you don't want someone to pay
28:37necessarily because the most valuable
28:39thing to you is people telling you their
28:41problems
28:42you don't want to gate that
28:44and so
28:46you know that's how I I would start
28:50um
28:51because I think that's the biggest
28:53problem for people wanting to get into
28:55this space right the space is pretty
28:57awesome once you get in once you you
29:00know you get into it like
29:02I've never seen anywhere else that you
29:04can make a million dollars a year so
29:06easily
29:08and
29:10the but the hard part is like how do you
29:12start from from zero and so I think this
29:15is a great way to do that
29:18um does that make sense
29:20yeah what I'm hearing Sam is
29:22I could be a beginner and and not even
29:25necessarily know specifically how I
29:27could help an audience or a market
29:29segment but I can make a very attractive
29:32invitation hey I'm starting this
29:34community here's here's our Focus here's
29:36specifically what we're trying to
29:37accomplish here's how we're going to try
29:39to go about doing it you want to be a
29:41part of it the initial barrier of Entry
29:43is is free they join it and then you try
29:46to serve as best as you possibly can and
29:50that will be reciprocated by those
29:53you're serving if it's not on on the
29:55point they'll tell you to make it on the
29:57point once it's on the point they will
29:59be grateful for you which will not only
30:01allow them to perhaps stimulate Word of
30:04Mouth immediately it allows you to have
30:06more confidence yourself in going out
30:08there and getting more users to join
30:10your community and then once it hits a
30:12point where you know the value is there
30:13then you can start charging for it it's
30:16it's a lot different than the model of I
30:18hope I get it right you pay me money and
30:21then let's see if I impact got it right
30:23or not which is very scary for a lot of
30:25people and stops them from ever starting
30:28yeah and then I think this way the
30:30marketing just makes itself basically
30:33because people are going to post their
30:35wins in the community those are your
30:37testimonials you just screenshot them
30:39right
30:41um and they read better than real
30:43testimonials that you ask people to
30:44write because they're out
30:47dozan is pure right
30:50um and then if you need to make a vsl I
30:52started doing this like
30:54I know I no longer sell info but when I
30:57was selling info like a year ago
31:00yeah I just recorded I got a loom video
31:03and I just showed my screen and I said
31:06this is this is what you get there's a
31:08community here's the content in the
31:11classroom you can see members are
31:12talking to each other oh look this
31:14person got a result this person got a
31:16result do you want to join this thing do
31:18you want to be a part of it and then
31:21here's our calendar and we do calls on
31:23this schedule we record the calls you
31:25can see all the recordings here like
31:27this thing cost this price if you want
31:30to join it here's the link
31:31like there's no copywriting there
31:34there's no script there's no anything
31:38it was the laziest thing I ever did and
31:40it it bit every single vsl I'd ever made
31:44which is really funny
31:47hey got everybody up in arms Sam I
31:49remember when you did it they were like
31:51this is the Sam Evans Google doc sales
31:53letter or something like that like and
31:55everybody started doing it afterwards
31:59yeah one thing I've learned to really
32:01not like is
32:04abstractions of things so like you know
32:07one thing that annoyed me about
32:08marketing was you had to like create
32:10marketing but that was something else
32:14than what you were creating right your
32:17product or whatever
32:19and so I always thought what if I could
32:20just focus on my product and then just
32:22that could be the marketing somehow
32:25and I think
32:27that makes it way easier to do and you
32:29never have to think about copywriting or
32:31you I hate
32:33um keynote and PowerPoint I never want
32:35to see those things ever again
32:37um
32:38I also don't want to edit any videos
32:41I want to do it first take right I just
32:44I just want it to be effortless so that
32:47I can just focus on the core problem
32:49that my audience has
32:52um and the better I solve that the
32:54better my business does and
32:56yeah
32:57and Community lends itself most easily
33:01to have this raw unrefined not needed to
33:06be refined marketing as a byproduct of
33:09the community
33:11yeah
33:13um
33:15yeah it's just very real like what you
33:18see is what you get you can actually
33:20just pull it up on your screen and say
33:23this is the product because I think in
33:26info for a long time you didn't really
33:29know what you were going to get when you
33:32purchased right there was like these
33:34these different
33:36um launch videos and there was a lot of
33:38like hype and build up and
33:40and there was a lot of slides with
33:42bullet points saying benefits but like
33:45what was it gonna what would it look
33:48like
33:49you
33:50you didn't know really it still worked
33:53but
33:54turns out if you just make the thing and
33:56it's cool like you can just show it and
33:59and then the testimonials are kind of
34:01naturally built in there because they're
34:03just posts right
34:06yeah and you wouldn't want to sell it if
34:10you didn't have those so the community
34:13really tells you when you should sell it
34:15and what the value of it is as opposed
34:17to you trying to guess on your own
34:20especially for new products right who
34:22have been unproven it's very scary uh
34:25what should I price this at how should I
34:27sell it etc etc
34:30yeah you can still do that right like
34:32people that have a list and they have a
34:35lot of a good reputation and stuff they
34:37can sell something that doesn't exist
34:40um and then they can make it live with
34:42everyone right because there's just a
34:44lot of trust there
34:46um but yeah I think it just helps a lot
34:48for beginners because they don't have to
34:50like try to learn how to do backflips
34:52with copywriting and they they just
34:56share what it is
34:58and then
35:00and they actually have it
35:02and people like it so that really helps
35:05with the confidence part
35:07yeah
35:09and so when you design school and that's
35:12s-k-o-o-l when you design school how did
35:16you design it to be a superior
35:18experience to create Community than what
35:21already existed out there
35:24yeah that's a good question so the first
35:28thing I had in mind when I made school
35:31was
35:33like Facebook groups but better
35:36right there was the simple statement I
35:38had
35:39so how would we know if we achieved that
35:42well someone would have a Facebook group
35:44and they would move it to school
35:46and the engagement would be better
35:49and them as the owner and their members
35:52should think the experience is better
35:54right
35:57so that was what I was trying to do and
35:59so
36:00you know we started with the most simple
36:02things first well you how you need to
36:05create a group then there needs to be
36:07profiles of users then there needs to be
36:09group membership
36:11and then there needs to be posts and
36:13posts showing a feed and then posts have
36:17comments posts and comments have likes
36:19you can add images and then you can add
36:22videos and then you know you there's
36:25notifications and in this search and
36:27then there's DMS and you know there's a
36:31lot two Facebook groups right so like
36:33this is why it took so long it's like
36:37you know we didn't build everything
36:39Facebook did because
36:41I think that's part of the reason why
36:43Facebook isn't very good is it's doing
36:44way too many things
36:46it's way too messy and noisy but we were
36:50trying to figure out what are
36:52the things that matter
36:54and then what things do they do
36:56perfectly and then obviously we'll do
36:59that but what things where can we
37:01improve on what they do right
37:04so it's like trying to figure out what
37:06are the things we need and then what
37:08things should we do the same and what
37:09things should we improve on
37:12and if you just carefully go through
37:14that piece by piece
37:17um
37:18and you have Engineers that are talented
37:20enough right the other that's the other
37:22thing like
37:25when you build a social network was it
37:27which is essentially what school is
37:29speed is is essential someone won't wait
37:35like someone won't get engaged in like
37:38showing up daily to a platform that's
37:41slow right
37:43so to make things fast you need you know
37:47really good software Engineers so we had
37:49to do that too
37:51um that was actually the hardest part of
37:53building school to be honest was just
37:54finding the engineers capable of making
37:56something better than Facebook because
37:58Facebook has you know amazing Engineers
38:01right and infinite amounts of money
38:04um
38:06so you know we just went through that
38:08process and of course using it ourselves
38:11and getting people to use it at the same
38:13time and then looking at metrics like
38:16daily active users monthly active users
38:19and benchmarking those metrics against
38:21Facebook
38:23so that
38:25yeah and then just using a lot of like
38:27feeling so
38:30you know what does it feel like
38:32to use that's that's really important
38:36um
38:37because yeah something has to be fast it
38:40has to also meet all of the like
38:41objective requirements like it has all
38:43the features
38:45it needs to be intuitive you know people
38:47have no time for instructions or
38:49training when it comes to a platform
38:50like this
38:52and
38:53it needs to feel good
38:58um
39:00and that part's hard
39:02um
39:04and just honestly how that looked really
39:06is just me staring at the screen every
39:08day and thinking about it every hour for
39:11years
39:12um
39:13yeah
39:15to the point you shut down
39:16consulting.com close the very lucrative
39:19Mastermind just to focus completely on
39:22score
39:23yeah
39:26what are some of your biggest insights
39:28that you've had of of because you've
39:30been iterating with the community and
39:32and thinking deeply on this like what
39:34were some of your biggest aha moments as
39:36you went through this process
39:43to like our moments about anything
39:47yeah like so you said you I'm assuming
39:49you had a hypothesis this is what the
39:51community is going to look like this is
39:52what school's going to operate on uh and
39:55then you put it out there and tested it
39:57and certain things I'm sure worked well
39:58other things didn't work so well so like
40:00speed of load is probably like one of
40:02the ahas when it comes to the community
40:04itself what did your community members
40:06want from you that you weren't expecting
40:08in terms of the what would be valuable
40:11to them
40:13hmm
40:15um so something that was surprising or
40:18just like you're like huh I didn't think
40:20this was as important as it seems to be
40:23now that the community's constantly
40:25telling me it's important
40:34well one thing you know that
40:37my team came up with this idea to gamify
40:39it right
40:41so my co-founder was one of the
40:43engineers at like riot games that and
40:46they built League of Legends and we've
40:48got about four or five other Engineers
40:50from League of Legends right so like
40:52there's a lot of gamers in our company
40:56um
40:57and they when they were looking at
40:59school they were like
41:01it's missing like
41:03it needs to be more fun that's what they
41:05said and I'd never really thought about
41:07fun because when you're a businessman
41:10making courses you fun isn't some like
41:13objective right like you're not
41:15optimizing for fun it's you're
41:17optimizing for results and
41:20and you never think of things that way
41:22but when you come from games it's very
41:24different and so they said school's not
41:26fun
41:29and I was like okay well
41:31how would you make it fun and they came
41:34up with all of these ideas to gamify it
41:36um and they came up with this basic
41:38progression system which is like key to
41:40every game it's like
41:42as you use it and progress there's some
41:44kind of reward that you get and you can
41:47use that reward for things so it's like
41:49a currency right
41:51and
41:53I just I was totally like I had no idea
41:56if this was a good idea or anything
41:58because I haven't been much of a gamer
42:00and
42:02I don't have much experience with this
42:05the feature really was well adopted
42:09and
42:12it's
42:13made School way more engaging and fun
42:18um
42:19and I never saw that coming it wasn't my
42:22idea either
42:23[Music]
42:24um
42:26yeah and how it's kind of manifested now
42:28is you can one like is one point so if
42:31you you know if you add value in the
42:33community you and people like it you get
42:36points as you get points you go up
42:38levels and as you reach different levels
42:40the creator of the community can unlock
42:42different things for you
42:44so you could unlock a course or you
42:46could unlock access to a calendar event
42:50and you can basically
42:53incentivize engagement
42:57and so
42:59one thing I was really really surprised
43:01to see is that some people were saying
43:03you know I only really was engaging to
43:06try to get points so I could unlock this
43:08thing
43:08but in the process I met some really
43:11amazing people and I've made some
43:13friends and I don't think I would have
43:15met them if it wasn't for this
43:18yeah
43:20so that was probably the most surprising
43:22thing
43:26I like how you implemented it too Sam
43:28because I've seen other platforms that
43:31try to gamify it
43:32and it's just it's too overwhelming it's
43:34too complicated uh it's hard to
43:37understand if you're the the content or
43:39the community manager how to manage it
43:41it's too much for you and for your users
43:44it's like you have to read a manual that
43:46know how to unlock this or unlock that
43:49so your Simplicity towards it I thought
43:50was
43:51really well done and if anybody creates
43:54a community in school it's just it's
43:56baked right in it's something that
43:58within a few minutes you can configure
44:00set up and intuitively understand and
44:02know how to use it benefit from
44:04hmm
44:06that's been my experience playing with
44:08with the platform I that I find it
44:11interesting that that didn't come from
44:13you that essentially came from the
44:16developers that you brought in and
44:17really from those who have been in
44:19communities right who have experienced
44:21here's what has made a good Community
44:23for me and the pastor has made me engage
44:25to be part of it from games yeah from
44:28communities
44:29yeah but these Gamers they're they're in
44:32communities right and and they're on
44:34TeamSpeak and they're chatting and
44:35talking to each other and they're
44:36working together to achieve a certain
44:38goal right
44:40um yeah in in most of these games like a
44:43league of legend for example right it's
44:45not the traditional games I grew up on
44:47where it's like Mario Brothers I'm one
44:49player playing against a computer
44:53yeah no you're right it is more of a
44:55community open world like
44:59thing
45:00um
45:01yeah and it makes it sticky with those
45:04you know leveling up gaining experience
45:07points um the stronger you level up the
45:10the better weapons you get in some of
45:11these games and the more capabilities
45:13you have and you've unlocked and you've
45:15turned that into I could have bonuses uh
45:19because I'm thinking like you know I'm
45:21I'm thinking like a traditional marketer
45:23here like if I had seven bonuses that I
45:26offer and one of those bonuses could
45:27even be a personal consultation with me
45:29in the past Sam when I sell that I have
45:32to sell that saying you know here's what
45:34you would have to do to qualify for this
45:36bonus because it'd be a conditional
45:37bonus XYZ one two and three were writing
45:40all sorts of copy on the page to explain
45:42it right I'm having to take three
45:44minutes to explain it when I'm selling
45:46it what I'm thinking now is in in school
45:49it could literally be once you reach
45:51level seven you will unlock this bonus
45:53and I'd be happy to do a consult with
45:56anybody who met level seven because you
45:58know they would be super heavily engaged
46:00and committed and and to your point they
46:03might even just try to game the system
46:05to unlock a prize but along the way
46:08they're going to do the things that will
46:10make them more capable to get them the
46:12results that they want anyway right yeah
46:14dude I've got a good story about this I
46:16at this course called we tube right and
46:19it was tingrin
46:21but
46:23I didn't want to sell it anymore because
46:25it had like coaching and stuff in it
46:28like not one-on-one but just group calls
46:31um
46:32and it was sold over the phone like most
46:3410K things are they typically involve
46:36some
46:37you know level of support and it's a
46:40phone sale
46:41I made it
46:44I had this idea for a Black Friday sale
46:47I'll make it one thousand dollars but
46:49it's going to be called a self-study so
46:51you get no support there's no coaching
46:54calls No One's Gonna help you with
46:56anything you've got to go through it
46:57yourself but the community is there to
46:58help you
47:00then at the last minute I thought hey to
47:03incentivize people to help each other
47:04I'm going to take the latest Quantum
47:06Mastermind recording
47:08which I'd already done which is the 36k
47:11Mastermind I put that in I think at
47:13level seven
47:15and so you could unlock it if you got to
47:17level seven so
47:20I launched this on Black Friday it did a
47:23million dollars in a day with no paid
47:26advertising or anything which I was
47:28shocked about like that was it was the
47:31best
47:32launch I ever did actually because there
47:36was like a million dollars from and it
47:38was there was no payment plans or any of
47:40that stuff right and then no Affiliates
47:42was just a clean Mill
47:44um and then the engagement in there was
47:46insane because people wanted they could
47:49like picture that that was worth that
47:51was a 36 Grand thing so it was like they
47:55could compare the Val they knew that it
47:57had real value
47:58and the engagement in that group was
48:00completely insane
48:02um I said to stop even looking at it
48:05because it was just you know
48:08there was new posts and comments every
48:10few seconds and like it was just
48:13completely crazy
48:15um
48:17and so I think a lot of people that have
48:20assets that are doing that they're doing
48:22nothing with like if you've got a
48:23mastermind and you record it
48:26you know you could take an event or
48:28parts of that event not even a whole day
48:30or it could just be the part on YouTube
48:32ads or the part on whatever and you
48:35could add that as a bonus it's some it's
48:37work you've already done that isn't
48:39going to cannibalize the sales of the
48:41actual product because it's just a part
48:42of it
48:43and it's actually the thing that the
48:45lower tier customers want the most
48:47because that's and it gives them a taste
48:50of that so then a lot of people that saw
48:52that wanted to buy The Mastermind it was
48:54like so perfect it was kind of crazy
48:58um
49:00and yeah that's also an option that
49:02people can do if they've got a higher
49:04ticket thing they can make it a
49:05self-study and then let the community do
49:07it right
49:09um there's so many cool things you can
49:10do when you use incentives
49:15that's brilliant yeah I'm sitting there
49:16thinking right now for my book right
49:18like my goal with the book I don't make
49:20any money off the book because there's
49:21you know ten dollars on Kindle uh but if
49:24I could get people to buy the book go
49:26through and support each other in the
49:27community that would lead to Natural
49:29backend cells of my other stuff
49:31but it would also most important to me
49:34get more people actually consuming the
49:36book
49:37um and you know the relieving reviews
49:39and all that other good stuff by putting
49:41some sort of
49:43if they if they get in this community
49:45and they hit a certain level based on
49:47their interaction then they'll unlock
49:48some other thing I have over here and I
49:51have a hundred different things over
49:52here that I could put at the end of that
49:54rainbow oh that's that's very
49:56fascinating what's the book about so
49:58it's about webinars it's called one to
50:00many
50:00so one cool thing you could do I've
50:03talked to like documentary filmmakers
50:05and stuff they have like
50:07you know big Netflix documentaries in
50:10there they say that people watch the
50:13documentary and they get all amped up
50:14and excited but then they don't do
50:16anything right
50:18and they want to change that so they
50:20want to start putting call to actions at
50:21the end of their documentaries to like
50:24to join a movement and then once they're
50:27in there like what do they do
50:30this one documentary thing is it's about
50:32veganism and I said well give them a
50:35grocery list right like where do you
50:37start if you want to become a vegan like
50:40I don't know I'm not a vegan but maybe
50:42it's groceries maybe it's a buddy that
50:45you can talk to each week to see what
50:49recipes they've found what they're
50:50eating how they're feeling right
50:53um
50:54like what are the next steps after the
50:56book to actually make change yep you
51:00know what I mean and then that's what
51:02they should join and start doing and
51:04posting about in the community it's like
51:06they're executing the key things from
51:08the book in real life and sharing their
51:11actions and meeting each other and
51:14forming bonds and basically creating
51:17like a movement essentially and that can
51:19be incentivized by
51:22you know clippings from your Mastermind
51:25or an interview you do with a successful
51:28person or whatever and then you can find
51:30the most passionate people in a
51:33community these people will always
51:34emerge that are obsessed about it for
51:37some reason
51:39make those people like the leaders of
51:42the community so that it's not all on
51:43you and they will help run everything
51:46and they'll organize local meetups
51:48they'll do all of that stuff
51:51yeah I've seen the the this the
51:53breakdowns like two percent of any
51:55Community is going to contribute like 50
52:00and of the total Community output right
52:03uh and those who do you want those and
52:05so those are the ones that will take it
52:07in in unburden you from it and make it
52:10better than you could because any one
52:12individual is not going to be able to do
52:13it anyway so these will emerge and then
52:15these become your biggest Advocates
52:17these become the ones that allow you to
52:19scale
52:20and that's the other thing that's
52:21exactly right but that's the other
52:23misconception people have about
52:24communities they think everyone needs to
52:26be engaging all the time right if you
52:30look at most of the internet the
52:32internet is like
52:33less than one percent of people
52:36make the stuff
52:38and 99.9 of people just consume right
52:41and it works great YouTube I don't know
52:44the numbers exactly but this will be
52:47rough there might be like 50 million
52:49YouTube channels but there's two billion
52:51monthly active users yeah
52:54yeah reddit's like that too right for
52:56every every one person who posts or
52:58comments I think there's 98 of people
53:02who never post or comment they just read
53:04and browse and there's nothing wrong
53:06with that right in fact it would be kind
53:09of bad if everyone felt compared
53:11compelled to post because it would just
53:12be chaos
53:14so
53:15you only really need like three true
53:19regulars that's you know if three people
53:22show up daily a passionate and having
53:24interesting conversations
53:27the community will always look alive no
53:29matter when someone visits it
53:32there will always be new quality content
53:34and new stuff to look at in in quality
53:36interactions
53:38right so
53:40that's why I said it's like quality not
53:42quantity you really just want to when
53:44these people emerge you want to really
53:46like
53:48reward them make them feel special like
53:52um we send merch to people all the time
53:54for free
53:56um and then we we kind of talk to them
53:59on zoom and let them be a part of
54:01building this platform too because
54:02they're so passionate about it we want
54:04to co-create with them
54:06and we all we listen to what they say
54:08like a lot and then we even invite them
54:11to come visit our office and come hang
54:13out here with the team one guy spent two
54:16weeks here recently he he had originally
54:19booked for one but he was loving it so
54:21much he extended it for another week
54:24um and he paid for the flights he paid
54:26for everything right he just wanted he
54:29is so passionate about school that he
54:31wants to just be here
54:35like he was working on his stuff here
54:37right like we didn't have to try to
54:39entertain him or anything like he just
54:41wanted to kind of bathe in the in the
54:43energy kind of thing
54:46um
54:46and so yeah keep your eyes out for those
54:49people they'll definitely emerge and
54:51then you want to
54:52you know kind of prop them up as like
54:56leaders in in the community right and it
55:00takes less that takes more stuff off of
55:02you
55:04that makes so much sense
55:09what what else about school should
55:11people know so they can understand the
55:14value that school offers up if they want
55:16to start building community
55:21or the main pieces of school uh there's
55:24a community
55:25there's courses so you can put your
55:28courses in there too
55:31um there's like a calendar where you can
55:33have events right so you could schedule
55:35a weekly recurring call on Zoom
55:38and have it in the calendar there
55:41and then there's also DMS so you can
55:43talk to people right like one to one
55:47and then there's the leaderboards where
55:49people get points and you can unlock
55:51things which is what we've been talking
55:52about
55:53those are the main things so when you're
55:56thinking about like how am I going to
55:58create this thing
56:01you could have I would recommend a
56:03weekly recurring kind of call it doesn't
56:06have to be weekly it can be monthly or
56:08whenever but I think recurring events
56:11kind of set a tempo
56:13right and that helps build community
56:15because people will see each other live
56:16on zoom and get to hear each other's
56:18voices and things
56:20I think that's a really good idea like
56:22once a week it can just be a q a or hack
56:25you could just call it a hangout There's
56:27No Agenda you just show up you just talk
56:30then you can record that and post it and
56:32afterwards so you're already starting to
56:34build up this this Bank of like content
56:38um
56:42yeah the course content you can just
56:44start small like don't think you have to
56:46have a big course just start with only
56:49the things you think are helpful and
56:51then when cool stuff emerges from the
56:53community you can create it there
56:56um you can also get other members to
56:58create a part of your course right it
57:00you don't have to do it all yourself
57:01I've found that
57:03this is a good Discovery actually you
57:06were asking that question earlier but
57:08the members like it more when there's a
57:10mix of members creating stuff and you
57:13kind of directing
57:14when it's just all you
57:17um
57:17I don't think it's as fun isn't because
57:21it's just the same person
57:24and them saying that they could one day
57:26be a contributor like that motivates
57:29them
57:30and people have different styles
57:34um
57:35and it's way better as the Creator
57:37because it's just less burden on you
57:38right
57:40um
57:41and those are the basics honestly and
57:44then obviously I'm repeating this but
57:45the most fundamental thing is who is it
57:47for
57:49and what are you guys going to do in
57:51there
57:51without the answer to both of those
57:54questions
57:55the other stuff doesn't matter really
57:57hmm
57:59so what I've noticed with with your
58:01stuff Sam is like we take a kajabi or
58:05any of these other platforms that you
58:08would put content into so I'm going to
58:10create a course video course whatever
58:11put publish it somewhere right uh first
58:14of all they're pretty expensive
58:16um compared to the pricing of school
58:18secondly though for most of the
58:21customers that I've seen go through
58:22those platforms they don't end up
58:24finishing their products because they're
58:26too complicated like there's too many
58:28configurations there's too many ways in
58:30which you got to learn how to put the
58:31content here there or wherever what I
58:34noticed was school
58:36I tell me if I'm overstating this I
58:39think anybody could easily
58:41frictionlessly put their course
58:43materials in there without having to
58:45even really watch a video it's pretty
58:47intuitive right
58:49yeah
58:51yeah it's you you don't need to learn
58:53anything it will be intuitive you just
58:55feel where you should click and it
58:58pretty much works yeah
59:00yeah and I like that because a lot of
59:03people it's hard enough for them to
59:04create the course and then they're like
59:06well I gotta configure this and I gotta
59:08make this in this format in this way and
59:10upload it here and then go over there
59:12and go over here and that's something
59:14where Facebook misses it because
59:16Facebook has none of that bridge being
59:18built for people to create training that
59:20this never how it was intended to be but
59:23these these training software they've
59:26they've made it like
59:28they've done too much just like
59:31Facebook's done too much because they've
59:32been too many things to too many people
59:33these courses are too many things to too
59:35many people and you've made it easy to
59:37create a course
59:38specifically to connect to a community
59:41so that's really intuitive
59:43um also
59:45um it's all in one I could set up
59:47payments collect payments and fulfill
59:49and deliver it all within the ecosystem
59:51of school correct yeah
59:54and that's I think that's a big point
59:57for people to understand because we've
59:58we have this conversation with our
1:00:00clients all the time they're like well
1:00:01what if you know they're buying over
1:00:03here in this platform and then we're
1:00:04adding them over there in in Facebook or
1:00:08Whatsapp or whatever right and then like
1:00:11well what happens if we have to remove
1:00:12them from course access because they do
1:00:15this or they do that or how do we have
1:00:16these two systems talk to each other and
1:00:18they don't and there's no easy way to do
1:00:20that because this is all in one
1:00:22ecosystem that's a lot easier
1:00:24uh for you to have everything working in
1:00:28concert correct
1:00:29yeah
1:00:30like I don't know what your experience
1:00:32is like let's say up here but it never
1:00:33really does what you think it's going to
1:00:35do
1:00:37it's a Band-Aid and sometimes it's a
1:00:39Band-Aid that falls right off yeah
1:00:43um it gives you it makes you feel like
1:00:45powerful but when you run it it doesn't
1:00:47really work
1:00:49um and yeah we just tried to put
1:00:51everything together so you don't have to
1:00:54connect any zaps there's no API
1:00:58I thought the thing I had in my mind is
1:01:00how could we make it like Airbnb
1:01:03right anyone with can just be like I
1:01:06want to make money with my house
1:01:09they just go on there it guides them
1:01:11through then they get customers and
1:01:12money goes into their bank account right
1:01:16they don't need to do anything there's
1:01:17no Merchant there's no stripe there's no
1:01:20there's no landing pages or funnels
1:01:23there's no
1:01:25there's none of that it's just
1:01:29easy
1:01:31um
1:01:33yeah that's what we want to do
1:01:35yep and I think you've done a really
1:01:37good job so I recommend anybody who
1:01:40wants to set up Community I recommend
1:01:42school to them I recommend school to you
1:01:44listening right now and I think it's
1:01:46perfect too because it's not just
1:01:48Community although you could completely
1:01:49run it only as a community
1:01:51it allows you to also use it in
1:01:55combination with coaching or anything
1:01:58digital or information related in your
1:02:01business and so it's very exponential
1:02:03when you connect those two together any
1:02:05last thoughts on community school or
1:02:08just business online in this day and age
1:02:10in general Sam
1:02:16I think
1:02:19just forget about like the theory
1:02:22and just
1:02:23do it like just just start talking to
1:02:26the people honestly like and then
1:02:29everything just comes from there
1:02:31everything seems so overwhelming
1:02:35until you
1:02:37you know you just start talking to
1:02:39people like I think even myself like
1:02:42I've caught I sat in the room just by
1:02:45myself trying to figure everything out
1:02:47in my head or by reading articles or
1:02:50something and it I wasted a lot of
1:02:52energy and I went through a lot of pain
1:02:53trying to build things that way
1:02:57and now you know things are way more
1:02:59collaborative and
1:03:01and I never even have that pain of like
1:03:03oh what would someone think of this or
1:03:05what does someone want I just get on
1:03:07Zoom with them and I'm like what do you
1:03:10think of this
1:03:11and I just watch their facial
1:03:12expressions and then I'm like what
1:03:14problems do you have and they just tell
1:03:16me and so like the material I need to be
1:03:18creative I don't
1:03:21I just I find it so much easier to just
1:03:23talk to someone and it just immediately
1:03:25kind of happens
1:03:27um
1:03:27I think that's what people should do
1:03:29like less passive kind of
1:03:32watching and consuming and more just
1:03:34interacting with the actual people
1:03:36they're trying to serve
1:03:39brilliant school.com
1:03:43s-k-o-o-l.com if you want to know more
1:03:45Sam appreciate it thank you very much
1:03:47for your time today thanks
1:03:51all right I'm