CIA Whistleblower John Kiriakou: They Can See All Your Messages!

0:00Billions of dollars are spent [music]

0:02spying on Americans, whether it's NSA or

0:04CIA or FBI. And to make matters worse,

0:08we know that the CIA can take control

0:10remotely of a car's computer system in

0:12order to crash the car, take it off a

0:14bridge, or take control of your smart TV

0:16and turn the speaker into a microphone,

0:19even though the TV is off and broadcast

0:21back to the CIA. [music]

0:22>> Can they do that with devices?

0:23>> Absolutely. And I'll tell you how we

0:25know. There was a CIA software engineer

0:27who was disgruntled, and he downloaded

0:28[music] tens of thousands of documents

0:30classified above top secret. And instead

0:33of going to the Russians or the Chinese,

0:35he went to WikiLeaks, and they became

0:37the Vault 7 documents. So, our whole

0:39lives are out there potentially [music]

0:41for someone to use against us. And every

0:43country has these capabilities. Listen,

0:46I spent 15 years in the CIA. I love this

0:49country, but one of the most important

0:50things in my life is the issue of

0:51ethics, [music] which is why I blew the

0:53whistle on the CIA's torture program,

0:55because my superiors kept repeating that

0:57torture worked. But besides being

0:59illegal, immoral, unethical, it just

1:01wasn't true. And I would let them send

1:03me to prison again, because it was the

1:05right thing to do. I mean, we know that

1:07they were experimenting on American

1:09citizens and spreading diseases in

1:11American cities.

1:13>> This is the stuff of movies.

1:14>> It is.

1:15>> And because you've been in this world

1:16that the [music] average person really

1:17has no idea about, I have to ask you,

1:19who do you think is the real adversary

1:21of the West? What are you most concerned

1:23about in the world at the moment? And

1:24what about everything that's going on

1:25with Trump and Venezuela and Greenland?

1:27And then, do you think Jeffrey Epstein

1:29was a spy?

1:30>> Yes.

1:30>> Who do you think he was working [music]

1:31for?

1:32>> The Israelis.

1:32>> Why?

1:38Listen, my my team gave me a script that

1:40they asked me to read, but I'm just

1:41going to ask you, um in the nicest way

1:43possible I can,

1:44thank you first and foremost for

1:45choosing to subscribe to this channel.

1:47It is, um it's been one of the most

1:48incredible, crazy years of my life. I

1:50never could have imagined. I had so many

1:52dreams in my life, but this was not one

1:53of them. And the very fact that these

1:55conversations have resonated with you

1:57and you've given me so much feedback is

1:58something I will always be appreciative

1:59of. And I will almost carry a weight a

2:01sort of burden of uh responsibility to

2:03pay you back. And the favor I would like

2:05to ask from you today is to subscribe to

2:07the channel. If you would be so obliged,

2:09it's completely free to do that. Roughly

2:11about 47% of you that listen to this

2:13channel frequently currently don't

2:15subscribe to the channel. So, if you're

2:16one of those people, please come and

2:17join us, hit the subscribe button. It's

2:19the single free thing you can do to make

2:20this channel better. And every

2:22subscriber sort of pays into this show

2:24and allows us to do things bigger and

2:26better and to push ourselves even more.

2:27And I will not let you down if you hit

2:29the subscribe button, I promise you. And

2:30if I do, please do unsubscribe, but I

2:32promise I won't.

2:33Thank you.

2:35>> [music]

2:41>> John Kiriakou,

2:43the world knows your name.

2:45Why?

2:46>> [laughter]

2:47[gasps]

2:47>> Why does the world know your name?

2:50>> I

2:51can give you two answers.

2:54One, I'm proud to say that I blew the

2:57whistle on the CIA's torture program

3:00in a nationally televised interview with

3:03ABC News.

3:04The second reason is

3:07I blew the whistle a long time ago and

3:10just in the past 18 months I seem to

3:13have hit some sort of YouTube algorithm

3:16sweet spot and all of a sudden

3:19my message is getting out there.

3:21>> And you went to prison for blowing the

3:23whistle.

3:24>> And I would do it again tomorrow.

3:26I really would. You know, I was I was

3:28giving an interview to the BBC the day

3:30after I got out of prison. They were the

3:32first

3:34outlet to ask for an interview.

3:36And so, I gladly gave it to them.

3:38And the interviewer said

3:41kind of

3:43perturbedly,

3:45"You're not showing any remorse or

3:47contrition?" And I said, "No, I'm not

3:50remorseful. I'm not contrite. I would do

3:53it again. I would let them send me to

3:56prison again because it was the right

3:58thing to do.

4:00>> And you were a spy in the CIA?

4:02>> Yeah, I was quite an accomplished spy.

4:05In the CIA. I spent 15 years in the CIA.

4:08The first half of my career was in

4:09analysis and uh and I got bored,

4:12frankly. And so I made an unusual, at

4:15the time, change to counterterrorism

4:17operations. And then I was the chief of

4:20CIA counterterrorism operations in

4:21Pakistan after the 9/11 attacks.

4:24>> And if I'd never heard about the CIA

4:26before

4:27and I had never heard about your role in

4:29the CIA before and I was a 16-year-old

4:32>> Right.

4:33>> how would you explain to me

4:35what you did there, what your role was,

4:37and what the CIA is?

4:39>> Sure. The CIA is an intelligence service

4:43whose job it is

4:46at its most basic level

4:48to recruit spies to steal secrets and to

4:51analyze those secrets so that the policy

4:53makers can make the best informed

4:55policy.

4:56After 9/11,

4:58we were expecting an attack, to use

5:00Osama bin Laden's words, that would

5:03dwarf 9/11.

5:05And so my job was to infiltrate Al-Qaeda

5:09by recruiting members of Al-Qaeda

5:12to tell us when and where that next

5:15attack was going to come so that we

5:17could disrupt it.

5:19We could

5:21kill or capture the leadership and

5:23destroy the organization.

5:25>> And give me a range of the things that

5:28you did during your time in the CIA.

5:30Just for a very top-line range of the

5:32types of things you worked on.

5:34>> Oh, sure.

5:35Um as an analyst, it was actually quite

5:37straightforward. Uh

5:39we would write for the president, the

5:41vice president, the secretaries of state

5:43and defense, and the national security

5:45advisor.

5:46>> And who were the presidents during this

5:47that time?

5:47>> Uh when I started it was George H. W.

5:49Bush, the father.

5:51And then it was Bill Clinton, then

5:53George W. Bush. There are several

5:56different publications. There's the

5:57President's Daily Brief, which is the

5:59most important. I covered Iraq the

6:02entire time that I was in analysis from

6:05well before most Americans had ever

6:07heard of Iraq.

6:09I was told actually that it was a

6:10training account because nothing ever

6:13happened there, nothing ever changed.

6:15And then

6:17Iraq invaded Kuwait.

6:19The next day I got to the office early.

6:22I was 25

6:25years old, 26 years old. And my boss

6:29said, "Don't take your jacket off, we're

6:31going to the White House." I had never

6:32been to the White House before except as

6:35a tourist.

6:36And so we got in a car, went to the

6:38White House, we're ushered into the Oval

6:39Office.

6:41It's the president, the vice president,

6:43the national security

6:45adviser, the director of the CIA, my

6:48boss, and me.

6:50And then we all sit down, the president

6:52tells us sit down.

6:53We sit down and the president says,

6:55"Well,

6:56now what do we do?"

6:58And everybody turns and looks at me.

7:00And it took me a second.

7:02And I said, "I Yes, I said, 'Mr.

7:04President, as you know, Iraqi troops

7:07crossed the border at 2:00 this morning.

7:09They the royal family has

7:11has run away to Saudi Arabia. They've

7:14named a new

7:16occupation governor, etc., etc.' Do we

7:18know who that is? I said, "Yes, sir." I

7:20gave him the name. And I said,

7:22"Actually, he he's the co-founder of the

7:24Popular Front for the Liberation of

7:25Palestine."

7:27The vice president shouts, "Jesus

7:29Christ!"

7:30And then the president says, "Gentlemen,

7:32thank you. Thank you. We'll take it from

7:33here." And I remember saying to myself,

7:36"My friends would never believe in a

7:39thousand years what I was doing right

7:41now. They wouldn't even believe me if I

7:43told them.

7:44That's what an analyst does. When I

7:45switched to operations, again, the the

7:48job was very straightforward. It was to

7:50recruit spies to steal secrets.

7:53But then if you're involved in

7:54counterterrorism operations, there are a

7:56lot of extras that you have to be

7:57trained in. So, you go through the

8:00normal spy training. This is how you

8:03ingratiate yourself. It's something

8:04called the asset acquisition cycle.

8:06Spot, assess, develop, recruit. I meet

8:10you at a cocktail party. You seem like a

8:12nice guy. I introduce myself.

8:16I ask, uh, "So, what do you do for a

8:17living?" Well, if you tell me you manage

8:19a shoe store, I'm going to say, "Well,

8:21it was very nice meeting you." And I'm

8:22going to go into the next guy. But if

8:24you tell me you work at the port,

8:27you work in the Ministry of Defense, you

8:30work in the Chinese Embassy,

8:33I'm going to invite you to lunch. I've

8:35spotted you. I've assessed you. And my

8:37assessment is I'd like to get to know

8:40you. Then I begin to develop you. I'll

8:42give you an example.

8:44I was in Pakistan. I got a tip that, uh,

8:47that Al-Qaeda

8:49a group of mid-level Al-Qaeda fighters

8:51was meeting every single day

8:54in a coffee shop at 10:00 in the

8:56morning.

8:57My Arabic was absolutely flawless at the

8:59time.

9:01And so, I had a bushy beard that I grew

9:03for operational reasons.

9:04>> Can I hear some of your Arabic?

9:06>> Yeah. Uh, "Tasharrafna bima'rifatik."

9:08It's nice to meet you.

9:10Or "Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Raheem.

9:12Alhamdulillah Maliki Yawm ad-Din.

9:14Ar-Rahman ar-Raheem." Uh, so,

9:17I, uh, I bought an Arabic newspaper and

9:20I went to the coffee shop. And I just

9:22sat there. And sure enough, at 10:00,

9:25the four of them came in. One of them

9:27looked at me and I looked at him. And

9:30that was it. We made eye contact. I did

9:32that for a week.

9:34The second week, I was there drinking my

9:36coffee, sitting with my Arabic

9:38newspaper, and the one who had looked at

9:40me the week before, he nodded. So, I

9:43nodded back. That was it. No

9:45communication otherwise. The third week,

9:48I'm a regular now. He recognizes me.

9:52So, he says to me, "Salaam alaikum." I

9:54said, "Wa alaykumu assalam. May peace be

9:55upon you." And I say, "And upon you

9:57peace."

9:59One day, he came in alone.

10:01And I said, "Tafaddal, please have a

10:03seat.

10:04Sit with me. No sense in you sitting

10:05alone and me sitting alone."

10:07So, he sat down. We started talking. And

10:10um

10:11I asked him how long he had been in

10:13Pakistan. He said, "Oh,

10:15I've been here for 5 years. I was in

10:17Afghanistan. I was making jihad against

10:19the Americans." And I said, "Oh,

10:22that must have been hell on earth." He

10:24said, "Oh." He said that the bombing of

10:26Tora Bora was hideous. That was the word

10:28that he used. It was hideous.

10:30And I said, "And what about your family?

10:32How's your family?" He said, "My wife

10:34and and son and daughter are in Cairo.

10:38I've never met my son. He was born just

10:40after I left to make jihad." I said,

10:42"I'm so sorry." And he said, "Yes, I'm

10:45I'm lonely and I I want to go home and

10:48we continued this relationship.

10:51And

10:52finally I said to him, "Let me take you

10:54to dinner. Let's get out of the coffee

10:56shop." The truth was I didn't want one

10:58of his friends to walk in and see us.

11:01So, we went to a restaurant for dinner.

11:03And I said, "Listen,

11:06there's something that I haven't been

11:07truthful with you about.

11:10I'm not Lebanese.

11:13And I said, "And actually, I'm American.

11:17Are you okay with that?"

11:19And he says, "I think so."

11:21I said, "Well,

11:23actually,

11:24I'm a CIA officer."

11:27And he says, "Okay."

11:30So, he didn't run screaming from the

11:32room or pull a gun or anything. And he

11:35said,

11:38"Why do you want me? Why do you want to

11:40talk to me?" I said, "Actually, you have

11:42access to something that I want." It was

11:44very specific and I told him what it

11:46was.

11:47And he says, "And what will you do for

11:49me?"

11:50And I said, "Anything your heart

11:53desires."

11:54And he said, "I want to go home."

11:57I said, "I can do that."

11:59>> You wanted information presumably.

12:01>> information. Very specific information.

12:03>> Which you can't share.

12:04>> No. I'll go right back to prison.

12:07So uh

12:08>> [laughter]

12:09>> So um

12:11we got him a passport. I bought him a

12:14first class ticket

12:16and I took him to the airport, gave him

12:18some cash to get himself started again.

12:21And I said, "Before you go, I have to

12:23ask you,

12:24why did you agree

12:26to give me this information?

12:28I mean, presumably I'm the enemy."

12:31And he said, "I've been here 5 years and

12:33you're the first person who ever asked

12:35me about my family."

12:38So I said, "Best of luck." Never saw him

12:40again.

12:43That's the job.

12:44>> I have to ask you.

12:45>> Mhm.

12:47>> Take me on the journey of you being a

12:50young man in West Pennsylvania

12:53>> Right.

12:55>> to becoming a spy. What happened?

12:58Because I'll be I'll be honest, you

12:59know, I don't I don't really know what

13:01my perception of spies is, but it's not

13:03you.

13:04>> That's good.

13:05>> Yeah.

13:06>> That's good. See, because I kind of work

13:08under the radar.

13:09>> Mhm. So what's really interesting is I

13:12>> [laughter]

13:12>> There's There's so many um

13:15once you learn about spies as a pod Like

13:17so, if you go back a couple of years and

13:19someone had told me about spies, I

13:20wouldn't have believed them. I wouldn't

13:21have believed that these things actually

13:23happened. Oh, yeah. You know, you hear

13:24about people going undercover and going

13:28to other countries and getting secrets

13:30and and all of these things.

13:33And it's not until you meet the people

13:34that said

13:36"Yes, that's me. I used to do that." But

13:38you're sort of you have this paradigm

13:39shift in your mind and you Oh my god,

13:41what else might be going on?

13:42>> Right.

13:42>> Because I lived in this world probably

13:44up until the age of I don't know, 30

13:45years old, where I kind of just assume

13:47things are what they are.

13:49>> Right.

13:50>> And then you know, you you start to

13:51discover that there's layers of secrecy,

13:54nations are against each other, they're

13:55doing all of these covert operations.

13:58And even like as a podcaster now, I have

13:59moments where I go

14:02like how do I know that

14:05you're not you're not here to steal

14:06secrets from me?

14:07>> Right.

14:08>> So you know what's funny? When I had

14:09Andrew Bustamante on the show,

14:12the comment sections are always the

14:13same. They're always like once a CIA

14:14spy, always a CIA spy.

14:16>> I hate when people say that.

14:17>> It's so intellectually lazy.

14:19>> But I does it I do wonder and I go Okay,

14:21here's a super conspiracy theory. What

14:23if

14:24the CIA have made spies do really well

14:28in the YouTube algorithm so that all of

14:30us as long-form podcasters invite them

14:32on and then they

14:34>> You know what? I would agree with that.

14:36I would have agreed with that a year ago

14:38because Andrew Bustamante has really

14:40made a handsome living out of selling

14:43his experience.

14:44>> Yeah.

14:44>> And he's on every podcast.

14:45>> Yeah.

14:46>> But I am the most anti-CIA former CIA

14:52person that's out there.

14:54>> But wouldn't that be the perfect CIA

14:55agent?

14:58>> I mean, if if I weren't constantly

14:59criticizing the CIA as a as a an

15:02organization that's just out of control.

15:04>> Do you think the CIA are have a strategy

15:06for podcasters and for podcasting?

15:08>> I think yes, now they do. It took them a

15:11little while to to get current, but just

15:15like they

15:16over time developed a strategy with

15:18Hollywood,

15:20sure, they're developing a strategy with

15:22podcasters. You know, it was only in the

15:24last 10 years that the CIA opened a

15:27branch within the office of public

15:29affairs whose job it is solely to liaise

15:32with Hollywood studios. The FBI's been

15:34doing this since the since the 40s.

15:37And the goal is that everything that

15:40comes out of Hollywood should be

15:41pro-CIA.

15:43And you know, we end up with with

15:46Zero Dark Thirty and you know, The

15:48Recruit and the CIA Argo. The CIA is

15:52always the hero in these movies.

15:53>> If you were still at the CIA now and

15:55your job was to in infiltrate and

15:59uh

16:00use creators or podcasters as an asset

16:03for the CIA subjectives,

16:06how might you design that plan if we

16:08were just hypothesizing?

16:10>> You would have to have

16:14a goal

16:17that would be specific enough that you

16:18could actually track the progress to it.

16:20So, you can't just say, "Well, I'm going

16:22to pay this podcaster X amount of money

16:25and we're going to we're going to

16:27we're going to do something with the

16:28algorithm to make him

16:30vastly popular among

16:33men, you know, 18 to 30, let's say.

16:37There's got to be more to it than that.

16:39It has to be a message. You've got to be

16:41able to get a specific, well-honed

16:45message out there.

16:47And the message can be anything.

16:50It could be, you know, love the CIA,

16:52we're the good guys. It could be support

16:55the overthrow of the Iranian government.

16:57It could be, you know, any criticism of

17:01Benjamin Netanyahu as anti-Semitism.

17:03It could be anything you want it to be.

17:06You just have to make sure that it's

17:07repeated enough. See, this was the

17:08danger with the torture program. This is

17:10one of the very important reasons that I

17:12went public when I did because

17:15my colleagues, my superiors at the CIA

17:18kept repeating this lie over and over

17:21and over again that torture worked. And

17:24that torture got us information that

17:26saved American lives. And that was just

17:28simply not true. It was a lie. Besides

17:32being illegal, immoral, unethical.

17:35It just wasn't true.

17:37And so I decided

17:39before we go down this road anymore, I'm

17:41going to go public.

17:43>> So can you take me back then? We got a

17:45little bit sidetracked there, but

17:46>> Sure.

17:47>> John, how did you come to be a CIA spy?

17:51>> When I was 9 years old, I told my

17:54parents that I wanted to be a spy when I

17:56grew up. It came time to apply for

17:59college and I only applied at one

18:02university, George Washington University

18:04in Washington, because it was two blocks

18:07from the White House and it was one of

18:09only three schools in America that

18:11offered a Middle Eastern Studies

18:12program.

18:14I was one of only four people in that

18:16brand new Middle Eastern Studies

18:18program.

18:20I stayed for a master's degree in

18:22legislative affairs with a focus on

18:24foreign policy analysis.

18:26I was taking a class in that program

18:28called the psychology of leadership. It

18:31was taught by an eminent psychiatrist

18:33named Dr. Jerrold Post.

18:36And

18:37he gave us an assignment one one day

18:40where we had to shadow our bosses. We

18:42had to just follow our bosses for a

18:44week.

18:44>> Your bosses?

18:45>> Yeah, I worked at a labor union called

18:48the United Food and Commercial Workers

18:49Union. And so we were just supposed to

18:52follow our boss around for a week and

18:54then write a psychological profile.

18:57I used dozens of, you know, footnotes

19:00from psychological, you know, psychology

19:02texts and I ended up saying that he was

19:05a sociopath with psychopathic and

19:07possibly violent tendencies and you

19:09know, I had these citations.

19:12I passed the paper in.

19:14Dr. Post gives it back to me a week

19:15later, gave me an A, and then he wrote,

19:17"Please see me after class."

19:20So, I went up to him after the class,

19:21and I said, "Dr. Post, you wanted to see

19:23me." He says, "Come to my office." So,

19:25we went down there, he closed the door,

19:28and he says, "Listen,

19:30I'm not really a professor here.

19:33I'm a CIA officer undercover as a

19:35professor here, and I'm looking for

19:38people who would fit into the CIA's

19:40culture.

19:41I think you would fit into the CIA's

19:43culture. Would you like to be a spy?"

19:47And I said, "Yes,

19:49I would."

19:51He picked up the phone

19:53and

19:54called a number,

19:56and he said, "Bob, this is Jerry. I've

19:58got a good one for you. Do you have some

20:00time?"

20:01And he said, "Sure." He writes an

20:03address on a scrap of paper, and he

20:05says, "Be at this address in 20

20:07minutes."

20:08It was only one subway stop away. So, I

20:10jumped on the metro, I went to Rosslyn,

20:12Virginia, just across the river. I had

20:14to buzz to be let in, and a woman opens

20:17the door, she says, "Are you here for

20:18Bob?" And I said, "Yes." She says, "Come

20:21on in."

20:23I'm sitting there for a moment, and then

20:24this like 6'6"

20:26350-lb

20:28giant barrels out of his office, and he

20:30says,

20:31"John, Bob, how the hell are you? I want

20:35you to be at the George Washington

20:36University Medical School Saturday

20:38morning at 8:00. We've got some tests

20:40for you." I said, "Okay."

20:43And then we shook hands, and I left. So,

20:46Saturday morning, I went to the GW

20:48Medical School Auditorium.

20:50There were like, I don't know, 200

20:52people there, and they hand us a a test.

20:56My wife picked me up. She said, "How did

20:58you do?" I said, "I have no idea."

21:00>> Does your wife at this point know that

21:01you're applying for the CIA?

21:03>> Yes, and that was going to be pretty

21:05much the extent of what she ended up

21:08knowing cuz once I got in

21:11>> But you were allowed to tell her.

21:12>> I was not allowed to tell her.

21:14No.

21:14>> So you told her anyway.

21:16>> Yeah.

21:17When I first applied they said, "Listen,

21:19don't tell anybody because you may go

21:21undercover, you may go under deep cover

21:24and we can't have people out there who

21:26know that you're a CIA officer."

21:29>> Presumably the CIA is smart enough to be

21:31able to check if you've told her.

21:33>> Yeah. And they ask you on the polygraph.

21:35>> Did you tell her?

21:36>> Really?

21:37>> And I said, "Yeah, I told her. She's my

21:38wife. What am I going to do?

21:40You know?" But it got to the point where

21:43I'd get home from a day where, you know,

21:44I broke into some guy's house and and

21:46planted a camera and a bug and

21:49I'd get home and she'd say, "How was

21:50your day?" I'd say, "Great."

21:52What did you do?

21:53Not a darn thing.

21:54And then my phone would ring at, you

21:56know, midnight and a guy would say

21:59"The rain in Spain falls mainly in the

22:00plain."

22:01And I'd say, "Uh Mairzy Doats and Dozy

22:04Doats and Little Lamzy Divy." And that

22:06means

22:07"Meet me at the yacht club parking lot

22:09in 3 hours."

22:11And then I'd leave. She's She would say,

22:13"Where Where are you going? It's

22:14midnight."

22:15I got to work.

22:17So I'd leave, I'd do my meeting, I'd

22:19come home 6:00 in the morning just in

22:21time to shower and shave and get dressed

22:23to go to work and she would say

22:26"What was her name?"

22:28And I I remember this one terrible time.

22:31That's what she said to me, "What was

22:32her name?" The truth is I had been

22:35sitting in a garbage dumpster

22:37waiting for a guy to drive by down the

22:39alley and throw a bag of documents in

22:42and I stunk of garbage and I said to

22:45her, "Do I seriously smell to you

22:48like I've been with a woman?

22:50Seriously."

22:53So we ended up getting a divorce.

22:56>> [laughter]

22:58[gasps]

22:59>> So you do the assessment, presumably you

23:01get in.

23:02>> Yeah, well I

23:03he he called me like 2 weeks later.

23:06Bob did.

23:07And he said, "You blew the doors off

23:09those tests." I said, "Oh, great. Okay."

23:12So, a month later, they summoned me to

23:14headquarters.

23:16And uh I was interviewed by

23:18the office of

23:19Near Eastern Operations, the office of

23:22Near Eastern Analysis, and the office of

23:24Leadership Analysis. I was offered the

23:27analysis job on the Iraq desk.

23:30>> And what is the sum total of the

23:32training you were given in the variety

23:34of different roles that you had? Like,

23:36how did they train you guys by

23:38>> That's a good question. And the answer

23:40is vastly different depending on where

23:43you start your career. So, because I

23:45started mine in analysis, the immediate

23:48training was in mastering the CIA's

23:52writing style. So, the most important

23:55product that the CIA writes every day is

23:58the PDB, the President's Daily Brief.

24:01>> And it tells the president what?

24:03>> What you think he needs to know.

24:05>> Okay.

24:06>> So, for example,

24:07when the Iraqis began moving to the to

24:10the Kuwaiti border,

24:12we had this big debate, are they going

24:14to are they going to cross the border?

24:16Yes or no? So, I said,

24:19"Listen, why don't I call

24:21the American Defense Attaché in Baghdad,

24:24and I'll just ask him to drive down

24:25there and look, and tell us what he

24:27sees."

24:28He drives down there, drives back, he

24:30calls me, and he says, "Literally, the

24:33entire Iraqi military is on its way to

24:36the Kuwaiti border."

24:38So, we wrote a thing for the president

24:40saying, "Iraq is going to invade Kuwait,

24:42and it's probably going to happen in the

24:43next 48 hours."

24:44>> And when when did the president see that

24:46particular briefing?

24:47>> At 7:00 a.m. the next morning.

24:49>> Okay. And is there ever situations where

24:51the president would get it in the middle

24:52of the night?

24:52>> Yes.

24:54Yeah.

24:54>> And be told in the middle of the night

24:55that

24:57>> There There are these levels of

24:58immediacy.

25:00There's routine, which is like, who

25:02cares? And then there is um

25:06priority, which means, ah, I'll get to

25:08it sometime today. Then there's

25:10immediate, which means, you should

25:11probably read it first.

25:14But then there's

25:16flash,

25:17which means, oh my god, something

25:19terrible just happened.

25:21You should probably wake the president.

25:23And then there's critic, which means,

25:26they're coming over the embassy walls,

25:28we're at war, wake up the president,

25:31scramble the jets.

25:32>> 9/11.

25:33>> 9/11. Mhm. That's a critic.

25:36>> Mhm. [snorts]

25:37>> [clears throat]

25:37>> So going back to this question of your

25:39training,

25:40>> Yeah.

25:41>> what is it that the s- CIA teach you

25:45about human nature and how to use human

25:48nature to your advantage that could be

25:50transferable to other disciplines in

25:53life like business or

25:55>> Well, this is going to sound

25:57not very nice,

25:59but it's it's

26:01real life. It's everyday life,

26:02especially in in business.

26:05The CIA actively seeks to hire people

26:09who have what they call sociopathic

26:11tendencies.

26:13Not sociopaths. Sociopaths have no

26:16conscience. They'll just blow right

26:19through a polygraph exam.

26:21But they're impossible to

26:24corral. They're impossible to to you

26:27know, keep

26:29under rein.

26:30Uh and it's because they're not able

26:33their brains won't allow them to feel

26:35regret or remorse.

26:37Now, in business, most CEOs are

26:40sociopaths. Most, not all, but most,

26:44especially in big companies because they

26:45claw their way to the top, usually on

26:48the backs of the people around them.

26:50They don't feel bad screwing the next

26:52guy to get that next promotion.

26:55The CIA wants people like that.

26:58Because those are the people

27:00who are going to break into a foreign

27:02embassy. A normal person would not

27:04advocate breaking into a foreign

27:06embassy. That's sovereign territory of a

27:08foreign country. I would.

27:11I'd be glad to do it.

27:12>> Why?

27:13>> Because we're the good guys.

27:15>> So, do you have sociopathic tendencies?

27:17>> Absolutely.

27:19>> And what are your sociopathic

27:20tendencies?

27:22>> My sociopathic tendency was to operate

27:25in legal, moral, and ethical gray areas.

27:31Specifically, that's what it was.

27:34>> I'm really curious about what we can

27:35learn about the human nature from

27:37someone whose job was to meet strangers

27:39and to get them to basically, sometimes,

27:42to turn against their own country.

27:44>> Mhm.

27:44>> I'm really interested in and I think I

27:47think it's informative because so many

27:48of us, you know, when we think about

27:50what good leadership is or what good

27:52sales man or woman ship is.

27:55>> Mhm.

27:56>> Um it seems like there's transferables.

27:59I guess for some people it's family. I

28:00guess for some people it's something

28:01else. That that that hook that you're

28:04talking about, that thing that gets

28:05them.

28:06>> And the word [clears throat] that they

28:07use at the CIA for the hook is a

28:09vulnerability.

28:11And it's not really a vulnerability in

28:13every case. Now,

28:1695%

28:18Studies have been done about this

28:20internally at the CIA. 95%

28:23of the people who agreed to become spies

28:25for us do it for the money.

28:27Right? It's It's a simple cash

28:29transaction.

28:31You give me money, I'll give you

28:33secrets. 95%.

28:35>> So, you're telling me that you think

28:36human motivation is 95% driven by money?

28:40>> Yes.

28:40>> Really?

28:41>> Yes.

28:42The rest was love and family,

28:46um ideology,

28:49revenge,

28:50and excitement.

28:52You're going to get a handful of people

28:54who are hooked on James Bond movies, and

28:56they will do it. I mean, you're going to

28:58pay them anyway, but they will do it

29:00just for the adrenaline rush.

29:02>> It's interesting cuz when I look at this

29:04list of things and I compare it to

29:07business,

29:08it I would say it's slightly different

29:11from my experience of hiring people.

29:13Specifically of hiring people. I tend to

29:15think that

29:17you know, you could one would ask

29:18themselves, like, why would someone

29:20leave a company right now, like,

29:22I don't know, Open AI and go work at a

29:24startup. They're going to get paid way

29:26more at Open AI. You've got these equity

29:28and these grants, but people are on mass

29:30doing that. And even when I think about

29:32the early days of Google, people left

29:33the big conglomerates that would pay

29:35them more,

29:36and they went and worked for Larry and

29:37Sergey,

29:38um, getting paid way less,

29:40>> Right.

29:40>> but to be involved in something small,

29:42scrappy, exciting.

29:45>> And and so I And this is what what I

29:46think about when I sit, you know,

29:47probably I've hired a thousands of

29:48people in my life now across my

29:50businesses. And money is a factor, but

29:53it doesn't tend to be the biggest

29:56factor.

29:58It tends to be, in my experience,

30:01there's a particular

30:03hero's journey in their mind that they

30:05want to be

30:06seen through. They want to complete.

30:08>> Uh-huh.

30:08>> You know, there's a particular way that

30:09they see themselves, and they want to

30:12fulfill that.

30:13>> Oh, I could get that. I I work with a

30:17with a very, very tiny startup right now

30:18called Ivy Cyber, and uh, it it focuses

30:21on privacy software, you know,

30:24things like, you know, scrambling your

30:26data so it can't be intercepted. That

30:27that sort of thing. And

30:30I've participated in a couple of pitches

30:32to, uh,

30:34to angel investors.

30:37And they all say exactly the same thing

30:38that you did.

30:39>> And this is why I was confused when I

30:40heard that money was 95%

30:42because I I just think

30:47especially in the work that you I don't

30:48know especially in the work that you do

30:50I would assume

30:50>> look at it this way I think this would

30:52explain the discrepancy.

30:54Um you're comparing people who are

30:56making a life

30:57>> Mhm.

30:58>> versus people who are betraying their

30:59country.

31:00>> Mhm.

31:01Sure.

31:02And what's [snorts] interesting as well

31:04is in those examples that you've given

31:07money is actually a proxy to be able to

31:10take care of my family.

31:12>> Mhm.

31:13>> And to be able to you know

31:15fulfill my ideology.

31:17And maybe to get excitement and revenge.

31:19Do you know what I'm saying? So even

31:19that guy that wanted the plane ticket so

31:21he could fly home. Yeah he could he

31:23could have the money could have got him

31:24home if you just given him

31:26the reason why he wanted to go home was

31:27because his family.

31:29>> His family. That was it.

31:31>> What's the extent of the things that the

31:32CIA can get as a

31:35incentive for someone to

31:38turn against the nation to give secrets?

31:40>> Quite literally anything you can

31:41imagine.

31:42>> Even if it's against the law?

31:43>> Well like they're not going to get like

31:45drugs or

31:47you know child prostitutes or no

31:50not stuff like that.

31:51>> What if someone said I want you to

31:55um

31:56>> [snorts]

31:58>> get me a a green card.

32:00>> Oh sure.

32:01>> What if they said

32:03>> good enough not a problem.

32:04>> What if they said I want you to

32:07I've got this

32:08tax bill. I want you to make the tax

32:10bill go away.

32:11>> Okay. Give me give me the plans to that

32:13Russian tank we'll make it happen.

32:15>> What if it was an American would they

32:16speak to the IRS here and just get rid

32:18of it?

32:19>> Oh if it was an American citizen you

32:20mean?

32:21>> Yeah.

32:22>> Uh

32:22no.

32:24>> But why?

32:25>> No.

32:27We normally don't recruit American

32:29citizens. By law the CIA can't operate

32:32domestically. Although they have offices

32:34all over the country those offices are

32:37generally to to debrief business

32:40leaders, C-suite officers who traveled

32:44to denied areas. For example, if if you

32:47take a trip to North Korea, let's say,

32:51I'm going to call you and I'm going to

32:52say, "You don't know me, but I'm from

32:55the CIA and I understand you just went

32:57to North Korea and I was wondering if I

32:58could come over to your office for an

33:00hour and just ask you about your trip."

33:0399.99%

33:04are going to say yes because they're

33:05patriots. So, I go to your office, I

33:08give you my business card, and we just

33:10chat about, you know, your impressions

33:13of the place and

33:15that kind of thing.

33:17>> Just to close off on this point, are

33:18there any skills that the CIA taught you

33:21or trained you in that you think are

33:23transferable for business that we

33:24haven't talked about?

33:28>> They They trained us also in lying and

33:31lie detection.

33:32That was actually quite important. You

33:35know, you

33:36CIA you're you're trained liar.

33:38And this is why the divorce rate is so

33:40high. It's the highest divorce rate of

33:42any entity in in the US government. It's

33:45It's upwards of 80%.

33:47>> Trained to lie. How do they train you to

33:49lie?

33:50>> Hi, my name is Dave Phillips.

33:52I work for an import-export company.

33:55>> But do they teach you the art of lying?

33:57>> Oh, yeah.

33:57>> And what is the art?

33:59>> You know, it's it's hard to like it's

34:01hard to pin down. You just sort of have

34:03to have it. You have to have that

34:05ability, but the hard part is you have

34:07to keep the lies straight. I'll give you

34:09another example. I've never told this

34:11story before.

34:15I was asked by headquarters. I was

34:17overseas in the Middle East

34:19and I was asked by headquarters to

34:21target one specific officer

34:23of this foreign country.

34:25>> Target?

34:26>> Yeah.

34:27Hi, how are you? Oh, we've never met.

34:29I'm John. So nice to meet you.

34:32Let me take you to lunch.

34:33He had access to to information that we

34:36really needed.

34:38Uh so, they told me to

34:40accidentally bump into him. So, I

34:42surveilled him for a week.

34:45And he was single. And on Saturday

34:47morning, he went to a coffee shop. So, I

34:50go into the coffee shop. And I'm looking

34:52at him, and he's looking at me. And I

34:53said,

34:54"I know you."

34:56"Ministry of Foreign Affairs?" He said,

34:57"Yes. Do I know you?" I said, "I am John

34:59from the American Embassy." "Oh, nice to

35:01nice to see you." I said, "Hey, good to

35:03see you, too. Do you live in the area?"

35:04"Yes, I do." I said, "Oh, so do I." I

35:06didn't. I lived like across town. "Oh,

35:08fancy meeting you here at this coffee

35:10shop. I come here all the time. Do you?"

35:12"Yeah," he says, "I come here all the

35:13time." "Why don't you have a seat?" he

35:14says. So, I sit down.

35:17At the end of the conversation, I go

35:18back to the embassy. And I write a

35:19cable. And I said, "He's gay.

35:22I'm 100% sure he's gay."

35:24So, then we started this conversation,

35:26headquarters and I,

35:27"How can we use that to our benefit?

35:29Does he have a wife?"

35:30>> No.

35:31He's single.

35:31>> Which was unusual at his age.

35:34>> How did you know he was gay?

35:35>> Oh, I

35:36I just It was a vibe.

35:38>> [laughter]

35:38>> Okay.

35:40>> So,

35:42headquarters says,

35:44"We want you to pretend that you're

35:45gay."

35:47I said, "Oh, come on, you guys."

35:49"No, we really need the information. You

35:51got to pretend that you're gay."

35:53I said, "Okay. I'll do it.

35:55I'll do it for Uncle Sam."

35:58So, I call him. And I said, "Hey, I have

36:01two tickets to this show. And I was

36:04hoping maybe you'd be free.

36:06Maybe we'll grab some sushi afterwards."

36:10He said, "Yeah, I'd love to."

36:12So, we go to the show. He thoroughly

36:14enjoyed it.

36:15And we go for sushi afterwards.

36:18And then we go out again. And he says,

36:21"Why don't you come over to my place

36:22some night? And I'll I'll make dinner."

36:23I said, "Great." So, I go over to his

36:25place. He made a lovely dinner.

36:27And then I thought, well, I have to

36:28invite him to my place. So, I told my

36:30wife, "You're going to have to like get

36:32out." So, she left. I made dinner. I

36:35removed all the pictures of us together.

36:37And we had just gotten married. So, we

36:39had like our wedding picture up and

36:40everything.

36:42At the dinner,

36:45he leaned in to kiss me.

36:47And I instinctively backed off. And he

36:49said, "Oh my god, I'm sorry. I thought

36:51you're gay." And I said, "Oh, no. I I am

36:54gay.

36:55I'm I'm I'm not into hairy guys."

37:00And he's like, "Oh."

37:02"Okay." I said, "I'm sorry. I think

37:05you're great, but I'm I'm not feeling

37:08it."

37:08>> You didn't kiss him?

37:09>> No.

37:10>> [laughter]

37:12>> So, we remained friends.

37:15And in the end, he gave me the

37:16information.

37:17Because we were friends. And then he he

37:20opened up. He's like, "I can't tell

37:21anybody I'm gay. They suspect I am, and

37:24they pass me over for promotion. And my

37:26boss asked me, is there something in

37:27your personal life that you're not

37:28telling me?" He knows I'm gay. I said,

37:31"Listen, your culture's backwards. Don't

37:34tell them you're gay. Just say that

37:36you've just never met the right woman,

37:37and inshallah, the right woman is

37:39coming, you know, in your life at some

37:42point, and

37:43I actually Googled him a couple of years

37:45ago, and he did become an ambassador

37:46finally.

37:47>> And he's still working in that country

37:49now?

37:49>> Mhm.

37:50>> [clears throat]

37:50>> Does that kind of stuff happen a lot in

37:51the CIA where you have to take one for

37:53the team?

37:53>> Yes.

37:55>> Have you ever taken one for the team?

37:56>> No.

37:57>> You I'm not sure you're telling the

37:59truth.

37:59>> Well, I it came close.

38:01>> When did it come close?

38:02>> So, I was overseas. I was a brand new

38:04operations officer.

38:06And there was

38:10a woman

38:11in this foreign intelligence service who

38:14was

38:15the ugliest woman I've ever seen in my

38:17life.

38:19Like, you want to avert your eyes. Like,

38:21she came off the side of Notre Dame.

38:24She was a, you know, a stone gargoyle

38:26with a giant mole right here with a

38:28giant hair coming out of it. That kind

38:30of ugly.

38:31So,

38:35so I took her to lunch

38:36and she was very nice. And then I

38:38thought I did something kind of gutsy by

38:40CIA standards cuz it was early on in our

38:42relationship. I invited her

38:45to go to lunch on a Saturday. Now, as a

38:48rule,

38:49the people in this country were not

38:50allowed to socialize with us

38:53privately. It had to be like their whole

38:55office, you know, or several of them

38:58together. So, I asked her just to meet

39:01me

39:02privately for lunch on Saturday. Don't

39:04tell anybody.

39:05>> So, she was someone from the Middle

39:06East?

39:06>> Yes.

39:08And she agreed. And I was like, "Oh my

39:10god, she said yes." And I ran back to

39:12the office. I was like, "She said yes to

39:14a lunch on Saturday alone."

39:17And my boss says, "Okay,

39:18here's what I want you to do.

39:20I want you to [ __ ] her."

39:22And I said, "What?" I said, "Have you

39:24ever seen her?"

39:26And he said, "I know,

39:28but we're the good guys and you're going

39:30to have to take one for the team."

39:33And I go, "Oh my god." I said, I go,

39:37"Okay,

39:38I'll do it."

39:39And he says, "No, you're not going to

39:41[ __ ] her. We don't do that." I said, "I

39:45don't know. I just started this. I've

39:46never been an operations guy before. How

39:49am I supposed to know?" He said, "Come

39:51on." He said, "Just develop her like a

39:53normal person. You don't have to [ __ ]

39:55her." I said, "Oh my god, you almost

39:57gave me a heart attack."

39:58>> But they they

40:00might not be mad if you did.

40:02>> So long as I reported it and I got the

40:04recruitment out of it.

40:05>> It wasn't illegal to, uh, you know,

40:06sleep with assets.

40:08>> Yeah, you're not supposed to sleep with

40:10assets. It has happened to a couple

40:12people I know.

40:13And, um, they end up being pulled back

40:15to the United States. You have to sit in

40:17the penalty box if you do that. You're

40:18not supposed to do that. But yeah, it

40:20happens sometimes.

40:22>> isn't a real thing?

40:23>> It can be. We don't

40:27>> [sighs]

40:27>> When I first got hired, one of the

40:29old-timers told me the story of about an

40:32Ayatollah that they were trying to

40:34recruit and they set this Ayatollah up

40:36with a prostitute. And it was he had sex

40:39with this prostitute in a room where

40:41they had cameras everywhere.

40:43And so they bumped him afterwards. They

40:45bumped into him and said, "Hey, we have

40:47all these pictures." And they laid out

40:49the pictures of him, you know, butt

40:50naked with this prostitute.

40:52And he said, "Yeah?

40:54Give me that one in 8 by 10. Give me two

40:575 by 7s of that one. How about some

40:59wallet size for this?" He's like, "Get

41:01out of here."

41:03And he said, you know, after that, we

41:06just stopped doing that. It doesn't

41:08work. When you recruit somebody, you

41:10really do need the relationship to be

41:12based on mutual trust.

41:14>> Not coercion, pressure, or threatening.

41:16>> somebody, it's it's not going to result

41:18in a productive relationship. The

41:20Russians do it. The Israelis do it.

41:23But most intelligence services around

41:25the world don't.

41:27>> Because you've been in this world,

41:29what is it that you know about the

41:31nature of the reality that we all live

41:33in

41:34that the average person

41:36really has no idea about?

41:39Do you know what I mean?

41:40>> Yeah.

41:41>> Because, you know, going back to what I

41:42said earlier, 3 years ago before I

41:44started doing all this podcast stuff and

41:45started interviewing people that that

41:47had been involved in spy work in the CIA

41:49and all this,

41:50I was kind of like naive to the way that

41:52the world worked. I thought

41:54I thought if I have a password on my

41:55device, my device is secure. And I

41:57thought that, you know,

41:59>> Right.

42:00>> all these kind of just simple things.

42:01But what is it that you know about the

42:03nature of reality that most people

42:04don't?

42:06>> Well, I I guess it's a couple of things.

42:10You know, John Kennedy called the CIA

42:13the best and the brightest.

42:15And we're not.

42:17We're just average people.

42:19And we're not as smart as we think we

42:21are. We're not as worldly as we think we

42:23are.

42:24We've pretty much missed every major

42:27global development since 1947. From the,

42:30you know, the rise of the Berlin Wall to

42:32the fall of the Berlin Wall to the fall

42:34of the Soviet Union to the Suez crisis

42:36and the Iran hostage crisis and 9/11 and

42:39everything else, we missed it.

42:42We're really good at day-to-day, you

42:44know, updates for the president. We're

42:46really good at recruiting minor

42:48hangers-on around terrorist groups, but

42:51the the big picture items, we're just

42:53not good at it. Number one. Number two.

42:58Until 9/11, it was against the law, like

43:01in stone, to spy on Americans.

43:05And now,

43:06billions of dollars are spent spying on

43:09Americans, whether it's NSA or CIA or or

43:14FBI or intelligence community

43:17contractors,

43:19nothing is secret. Nothing. And to make

43:22matters worse,

43:25let's say maybe you did do something

43:28that law enforcement might be interested

43:29in. They don't need a warrant anymore.

43:32They don't need to go to a judge and

43:33say, "Well, we have reason to believe,

43:35you know, blah blah blah." All they have

43:37to do is just buy your metadata, cuz

43:38it's for sale.

43:40Just go to the go to the carrier. Just

43:42buy it.

43:43They don't need a judge's order to do

43:45that.

43:46It's all out there. We've made all We've

43:48made ourselves vulnerable. All of our

43:49lives are out there, whether it's on

43:52Facebook or X or Insta or whatever.

43:56If they really want to get you, they're

43:58going to get you, which reminds me of a

44:00book

44:02written by Dr. Harvey Silverglate.

44:05He's a professor of law at Harvard, and

44:06it's called Three Felonies a Day.

44:09And he argues in this book that we are

44:11so over-criminalized,

44:13so over-regulated in this country, that

44:15the average American on the average day,

44:18going about his or her normal business,

44:20commits three felonies.

44:22Every day.

44:24You may not mean to, but you do, every

44:27day. So, if they decide they want you,

44:31they don't like your politics,

44:33they can get your metadata. They can go

44:35through that metadata, find crimes that

44:39they can charge you with, and ruin your

44:41life. And there's nothing you can do to

44:43protect yourself.

44:45>> To some extent, they did that to you.

44:47>> Yeah, they did. They did that to me.

44:50>> Because you spoke out about a torture

44:52program that [clears throat] was

44:53happening in the CIA.

44:54>> Yeah, John Brennan wrote a letter to

44:56Eric Holder and said,

44:59"Charge him with espionage."

45:01And Holder wrote back. Eric Holder was

45:03the Attorney General. Holder wrote back

45:05and said, "My people don't think he

45:06committed espionage." And John Brennan

45:09wrote back to Holder and said, "Charge

45:10him anyway, and make him defend

45:12himself."

45:13So, they arrested me, charged me with

45:15five felonies, including three counts of

45:18espionage. Espionage can be a death

45:20penalty case.

45:21Charged me with espionage.

45:23They waited until I went bankrupt 10

45:26months later with $2 million in legal

45:29fees.

45:31And then they dropped the espionage

45:32charges.

45:33And they said, "We can re-add the

45:35espionage charges,

45:37or you can take a plea to this lesser

45:38charge."

45:40What are you going to do?

45:42Roll the dice, knowing that the

45:44government wins 98.2% of its cases,

45:47according to ProPublica?

45:49Or do you just take the deal and make it

45:50go away? And that's what I did.

45:52>> And you got roughly 2 years in jail.

45:54>> Yeah, I ended up doing 23 months.

45:57>> Mhm.

45:58And for anyone that doesn't know, this

46:00was because at some point in your

46:02career, you spoke out about torture

46:04programs that were happening in

46:06Guantanamo Bay and and and elsewhere.

46:08>> And yeah, and at secret prisons that the

46:10CIA had set up around the world, right?

46:13>> And going back up to the top of my

46:14question here, I'm really trying to

46:16speak to Jane Dave who's listening to

46:19this right now. Sure. They have a normal

46:21life.

46:21>> Yep.

46:22>> They're not really aware that spies

46:23exist and the extent of the work they

46:24do. They kind of assume that everything

46:26they see and people they interact with

46:27are normal and they think their devices

46:30and everything else is secure. What

46:31message do you have for them? A word of

46:33warning or caution about the reality?

46:35>> Yeah, that's a good question.

46:37Elliot Spitzer, the former um

46:40governor of New York

46:42when he was attorney general of New

46:43York, he said

46:47don't nod when you can motion.

46:51Don't speak when you can nod.

46:55And don't ever put anything in a text

46:58message.

47:01At the CIA on our very first day, they

47:03told us not to ever say or do anything

47:07that we would be ashamed to see on the

47:10front page of the Washington Post. I

47:12took that seriously.

47:14The truth of the matter is because of

47:16technology the way it is today,

47:19our whole lives are out there

47:21potentially for someone to see, for

47:24someone to use against us.

47:26So, be careful what you say, be careful

47:29what you write, even in jest

47:32because it can be taken out of context

47:34to target you.

47:38>> And what about digital security? You

47:41talked about the fact that it's possible

47:43for these these forces and not just the

47:45US, but other countries to be able to

47:48hack and crack your devices and see

47:50anything on your devices. I think we all

47:52go around assuming that our devices are

47:53secure. They're not secure at all.

47:56>> At all. It's not just, you know, NSA,

47:58CIA, FBI that you have to worry about.

48:01It's the British, the French, the

48:03Germans, the Canadians, the Australians,

48:05the New Zealanders,

48:07the Russians, the Chinese, the Israelis,

48:09the Iranians.

48:11I mean, everybody has these

48:12capabilities. Everybody.

48:15So, you've got to be very, very careful.

48:18>> Capabilities to do what?

48:19>> To intercept communications.

48:21>> I've heard you say that they can hack

48:24car systems.

48:26They could So, they could theoretically

48:27hack into my car?

48:28>> Yes, we know that from uh WikiLeaks.

48:31There was something in 2017 called the

48:33Vault 7 Revelations. There was a a CIA

48:36software engineer who was disgruntled.

48:40And instead of

48:42going to the Russians or the Chinese,

48:45he went to WikiLeaks.

48:47And he downloaded thousands, tens of

48:49thousands of pages of

48:52documents classified above top secret.

48:55And

48:56they became what WikiLeaks called the

48:58Vault 7 documents. So, they included

49:01things like

49:02the CIA, for example,

49:04will hack into, let's say, the Iranian

49:08Ministry of Interior computer system.

49:11But they'll leave little electronic

49:13clues

49:15all written in Cyrillic.

49:16>> Uh in Cyrillic as well?

49:17>> The Cyrillic is the is the alphabet, the

49:19Russian alphabet. Yep.

49:22>> Uh or

49:24they can take control of your smart TV

49:27remotely,

49:29and they can make the speaker turn into

49:31a a microphone. So, even though the TV

49:34is off,

49:36it can still

49:37hear everything that's being said in the

49:38room and broadcast back to the CIA.

49:41>> Can they do that with all devices? Do

49:43they

49:43>> Oh, they could do that when I first got

49:45hired, they were able to do that.

49:48>> So, they could be doing that right now

49:49with

49:49>> Oh, yeah, totally.

49:50>> My iPad

49:50>> Absolutely, yes. That's old technology.

49:53And then the thing about the car, this

49:56was revelatory. They can take control,

49:59again remotely, of a car's computer

50:01system

50:03in order to

50:06well, I mean, in order to to kill you.

50:09>> Crash the car.

50:10>> Crash the car, take it off a bridge,

50:12take it into a tree, sure.

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52:07I've heard you talk about sleeper agents

52:09before.

52:09>> Yes.

52:10>> What is the What is a sleeper agent?

52:12>> Yeah, the Russians are very good with

52:15sleeper agents.

52:16We Americans don't have No No other

52:19country that we know of uses sleeper

52:21agents. A sleeper agent is someone

52:24who is taken virtually from birth

52:27and trained

52:29to be of another nationality. For

52:31example, let's say you're born in Russia

52:36and from the age of, you know, two, they

52:40take you from your family with your

52:42family's acquiescence,

52:44and they take you to

52:47an American-style

52:48town that they've built out in the

52:50hinterland in Russia,

52:52and they teach you to speak English

52:55with an American accent.

52:57You watch American TV shows, you watch

52:59American movies, you eat American food,

53:02you get an American-style education. So,

53:05I have no idea that you're not American.

53:09You speak English just like I do. You

53:11know all the same

53:13you know, social references that I make.

53:15You follow the Philadelphia Eagles, you

53:18know, or or the, you know, the San

53:20Francisco 49ers or whatever.

53:24And then they send you to the United

53:25States on a on a fake

53:28with a fake ID. What they'll do is

53:30they'll go through I was born in 1964,

53:33so they'll go through death records from

53:361964, and they'll look for for deaths

53:39where the person was only a day or two

53:41old.

53:43And they'll take that name and the birth

53:45date and they'll get a social security

53:47card with the birth date.

53:49And then they'll use the social security

53:51card to get you a passport. An American

53:53passport. So, you come here on your

53:55American passport.

53:57Everything's legit. Now your name is,

53:59you know, Bob Smith, which was really

54:01that baby's name that died.

54:03And you get a job, let's say, as a

54:06travel agent.

54:09And you may work as a travel agent for

54:1220 years

54:14and never hear from them.

54:17But then they'll activate you.

54:19And they'll say, "We want you to go take

54:21care of this target over here."

54:23>> Kill him.

54:23>> Yeah.

54:24Or we want you to get a job at the

54:27Defense Department and give us

54:29everything that you that you can steal.

54:32Whatever.

54:33There's a woman in my neighborhood who

54:34was outed as a sleeper

54:36about a year ago. She was an elementary

54:38school teacher.

54:40And they grabbed her. And they ended up

54:41trading her back to the Russians for two

54:43Americans.

54:45So, they're they're out there. I I

54:47interviewed a a sleeper, a former

54:49sleeper, on my own podcast a couple of

54:51weeks ago. He was

54:54from the East German intelligence

54:56service.

54:57And he was raised as an American

54:59and

55:01sent to New York.

55:03He got a job, I forget doing what, like

55:05restaurant supply company or something

55:08like that.

55:10And

55:11he got married

55:13and he had a daughter.

55:15And he told me, "As soon as I looked at

55:17her face the day she was born,

55:20I realized this life wasn't for me

55:22anymore.

55:24So, they

55:26sent him an activation. What they do is

55:28they'll send you a radio message.

55:30And he didn't respond to it.

55:32>> [snorts]

55:32>> And he told me he was on the subway one

55:34day. He's just standing there holding

55:35the strap.

55:37And this guy came up to him and the guy

55:39grabs the strap next to him and whispers

55:42in his ear, "If you don't report back, I

55:45have to kill you."

55:47And so, he ran straight to the FBI field

55:51office in New York and he said, "I'm an

55:53East German sleeper

55:54and I want to turn myself in."

55:56And he became a prolific source for the

55:58FBI.

55:59>> So, he was

56:02taken as a young person?

56:03>> Yes.

56:04>> What was his story?

56:05>> Yeah, taken as a young person, sent to

56:08Russia to become American.

56:11>> Mhm.

56:11>> They set him up with this phony

56:12identity.

56:13>> Mhm.

56:13>> And then after he had gone through all

56:15the training, he came over here young.

56:17He was like 20 or 22.

56:21And uh and did this for

56:2325 years.

56:25And then he said as soon as his daughter

56:27was born, he was like, "Wow, this is

56:30what life is for, not being a sleeper."

56:33>> Do you think the average person

56:34listening to this conversation right now

56:36is interacting in their life at this

56:39exact moment in time with someone who is

56:42involved in

56:44espionage, spying, the CIA, or some

56:47international

56:49equivalent?

56:50>> Probably not.

56:52Because

56:55they're mostly focused foreign

56:57intelligence officers are going to be

56:59spread out all over America. If if

57:02if a listener

57:04of this podcast is working

57:06in a defense

57:08company

57:09a defense contractor, anywhere in

57:11America, then my answer is yes.

57:13Yes, you're probably encountering

57:17espionage of some sort

57:19or somebody committing espionage.

57:21Whether it's Russian, Chinese, or

57:22Israeli, they're the three biggest ones

57:25that go after us.

57:27Um

57:28in Washington

57:32I mean foreign spies, there there could

57:34be as many as 10,000 in Washington. I

57:37remember my first wife um

57:40she was teaching ballet at a small

57:42private school and one of the

57:45the students there, they were all like

57:46four, five, and six years old. One of

57:48the students there father was a Belgian

57:50diplomat.

57:51And so we would sit and talk and oh

57:54aren't the kids talented and oh this is

57:56so much fun. They look so cute in their

57:57little tutus. And then I went to work

57:59one day and as I was walking in, he was

58:02walking in and I said, "Oh come on

58:04Peter."

58:06And he's like, "You know,

58:07I thought you were a spy." And I said,

58:10"I actually didn't think you were a

58:12spy."

58:13And he was just going for a liaison

58:15meeting.

58:16We had a good chuckle about it and I

58:18said, "Listen,

58:20don't tell anybody, right?"

58:22Right, right, right. Sorry.

58:25>> So I'm trying to figure out how many how

58:27many spies do you think there are in the

58:30United States? If you think about

58:32>> Fo- foreign spies?

58:33>> Foreign spies, domestic spies, people

58:35that are basically undercover.

58:38>> Including Americans, you mean?

58:39>> Including Americans.

58:40>> The number of CIA employees is

58:42classified. The number of CIA employees

58:44undercover is actually even more highly

58:47classified. I can give you a guestimate.

58:50>> But also you know if Russia, China

58:52>> Yeah.

58:5350 to 60,000 altogether?

58:56>> 50 to 60,000 in the United States.

58:58>> Mhm.

58:59>> So by a couple of degrees of separation

59:01if you know 100 people

59:03>> Yeah. You're probably going to know one.

59:06Sure.

59:08>> So there's probably about 50,000 in the

59:10United States. So I've I've just done

59:12some quick math on my notepad here.

59:15Which means that in order to know

59:17one

59:19you'd need

59:20to meet 6,600 people.

59:22>> Okay.

59:23>> Because the US population is roughly 330

59:24million people.

59:25>> That's right.

59:26>> And I and then I did some other maths

59:27and did some research. And I asked um

59:29the question I was trying to figure out

59:30is how many people does the average

59:32person meet a year?

59:33And it's roughly

59:35about

59:363 to 10,000 people.

59:37>> Mhm.

59:38>> So, theoretically

59:39>> So, the chances are good?

59:41>> every year

59:43statistically

59:45according to my

59:47napkin math you're meeting one of these

59:50undercover [laughter] spies.

59:52One a year.

59:54>> There it is. Well, now that number I

59:57gave you is I'm lumping like all CIA

1:00:01people and all foreign intelligence

1:00:03officers in the United States.

1:00:06>> Interesting.

1:00:07>> But again, if you work for an American

1:00:10defense company, Northrop Grumman,

1:00:12Lockheed Martin, Boeing, any of them,

1:00:17your chances of encountering a foreign

1:00:19intelligence officer are

1:00:21even money.

1:00:22>> Can't you as a spy with the United

1:00:24States

1:00:25ask the United States to give you loads

1:00:26of money? Like can't you say, "Oh, you

1:00:28really want me to go do that. Can I have

1:00:29a million dollars?"

1:00:31Cuz you're giving you're potentially

1:00:32giving away a lot of money to other

1:00:34people.

1:00:34>> Oh, my god, giving away like unlimited

1:00:36amounts of money.

1:00:37>> Cuz your budget when you were a spy, how

1:00:38much was it?

1:00:39>> After 9/11, it was unlimited.

1:00:41>> What does that mean? It means you can

1:00:42basically give away as much money as you

1:00:44need to.

1:00:45>> If I approach somebody and he says, "I

1:00:47can give you

1:00:49this terrorist.

1:00:51I want 10 million." I'm like, "Done."

1:00:54>> What was the most you ever gave in terms

1:00:56of money?

1:00:56>> You gave someone 10 million? For what?

1:01:00>> Abu Zubaydah.

1:01:02>> Who's Abu Zubaydah?

1:01:03>> We believed that Abu Zubaydah was the

1:01:05number three in Al-Qaeda. He wasn't the

1:01:07number three, but he was a very bad guy.

1:01:10I led the raids that captured Abu

1:01:12Zubaydah in Pakistan, Faisalabad,

1:01:14Pakistan, in March of 2002.

1:01:17And um

1:01:19the State Department had a $10 million

1:01:21reward. We ended up giving the 10

1:01:23million to the Pakistani intelligence

1:01:24service. It wasn't

1:01:26>> a person.

1:01:27>> a person. It was just really great

1:01:29analysis that led us to him. But,

1:01:33there were others in the so-called war

1:01:36on terror

1:01:40who

1:01:42got more than 10 million

1:01:44and got it like within 24 hours.

1:01:49>> Individuals?

1:01:50>> Individuals.

1:01:51>> How much?

1:01:53>> One got 25 million.

1:01:55>> Just a person?

1:01:56>> Uh-huh. And the thing is, you know,

1:01:57there's a lot of danger there.

1:01:59If you're a if you're a, you know, a

1:02:02shepherd

1:02:03or a tea boy

1:02:05and you make $40 a month

1:02:08and all of a sudden you have $25 million

1:02:13something something's up.

1:02:14>> And what was the 25 million for?

1:02:17>> It was for a very

1:02:20high-ranking

1:02:23foreign terrorist who was brought to

1:02:25justice. I I can't I can't say

1:02:28cuz it was never

1:02:31publicly disclosed.

1:02:33But, what we would have to do in a

1:02:34situation like that is

1:02:37we would have to tell the the source,

1:02:39you can't live here anymore.

1:02:41Pick a country

1:02:43and that's going to be home from now on.

1:02:45And then we go to that country and say,

1:02:47"Hey, can you do us a solid? We've got

1:02:48this guy who, you know, he really came

1:02:50through and

1:02:52>> [clears throat]

1:02:52>> he's not going to be a burden on your

1:02:54economy

1:02:55>> cuz he's got 25 million dollars.

1:02:57Which country did he pick?

1:02:58>> Oh, I can't I can't tell you that.

1:03:02He wanted to He wanted to stay in the

1:03:03region.

1:03:05He He wasn't willing to move to the

1:03:06United States, for example.

1:03:08Cuz we're happy to take him.

1:03:10You're welcome to come to the United

1:03:11States. He's like, "Absolutely not."

1:03:13>> He went to Dubai.

1:03:14>> I would.

1:03:15>> Yeah, [laughter] with the tax code.

1:03:19Interesting.

1:03:21Mhm.

1:03:23I think I'm I think I'm Yeah, I'm You

1:03:25can tell my bias from the questions that

1:03:26I ask about the things that fascinate me

1:03:28about espionage and spies. It's just

1:03:31It's the under They're understanding of

1:03:33human nature and what motivates us and

1:03:35the psychology of humans that you can

1:03:36learn from

1:03:38um spies and the nature [clears throat]

1:03:40of human beings, I guess.

1:03:42>> Right.

1:03:42>> And also, I guess the other thing that

1:03:43really fascinates me is just

1:03:47I've had so many mind mind-blowing

1:03:48moments where I've learned just how

1:03:51fragile the reality that I believe is.

1:03:54Like I thought things were secure and I

1:03:55thought they were as they are, but

1:03:57>> Right.

1:03:57>> it just doesn't appear to be that way.

1:03:58There appear appears to be lots of

1:03:59secrets. And you know, conspiracy

1:04:01theorists get a hard time,

1:04:03but actually, the more I've done this as

1:04:05a job, the more I go, "Hm, conspiracy

1:04:07theorists are

1:04:08right more than I expected them to be."

1:04:10>> See, and that's an important point.

1:04:13I

1:04:14>> [sighs]

1:04:17>> I hate conspiracy theories that run

1:04:20amok. But you know, the the the a former

1:04:22CIA director is the one who came up with

1:04:24the term conspiracy theory.

1:04:27And it was it was a way for the CIA to

1:04:29discredit people by making them sound

1:04:31like crazy people. When in fact, there

1:04:34was such a thing called MK Ultra. There

1:04:36was such thing called, you know,

1:04:38Operation Grasshopper or or MK Chickwit

1:04:42or you know, the CIA did crazy crazy

1:04:45stuff from roughly 1952 to 1975.

1:04:50For example, they um

1:04:53experimented with a a virus

1:04:56that they

1:04:59that they released in San Francisco.

1:05:01They waited for it an unusually foggy

1:05:04like heavily foggy day. They released it

1:05:07into the atmosphere just to see if it

1:05:09would make people sick. And 11 people

1:05:12went to the emergency room with this

1:05:13rare upper respiratory infection. And

1:05:16then they were like, you know, high

1:05:17fives. Yeah, it works.

1:05:20And then they they started experimenting

1:05:22with LSD. LSD was a big thing at the CIA

1:05:25in the early days.

1:05:27We were convinced See, and this this is

1:05:30this is where counterintelligence is

1:05:31important.

1:05:35The Chinese

1:05:38told us

1:05:39in like 1951

1:05:42that the Russians were using LSD to try

1:05:45to engineer it to be used as a mind

1:05:49control drug.

1:05:51That wasn't true. That was

1:05:53disinformation.

1:05:54The truth was the Russians had no

1:05:57LSD program.

1:05:59The Chinese did.

1:06:01So, they tried to throw us off the off

1:06:04the scent by blaming the Russians.

1:06:08We panicked.

1:06:09And by 1952 we started this program

1:06:11called MKUltra,

1:06:13which began

1:06:15by using LSD

1:06:17um experimentally.

1:06:19What the CIA did was they they started

1:06:21by dosing their own employees

1:06:23without telling them.

1:06:25Um several committed suicide. One jumped

1:06:28out of a hotel window.

1:06:29>> With the hope that

1:06:31>> Yeah, we'll just see what happens. See

1:06:32what they say. See how it feels. You

1:06:34know, see if we can control them. See if

1:06:36we can plant memories that didn't

1:06:38actually happen.

1:06:40And then they decided, "No, it's not a

1:06:42good idea to dose our own people. Let's

1:06:44just dose strangers out in public." So,

1:06:46they went to San Francisco.

1:06:49They

1:06:50rented a safe house

1:06:52and they hired prostitutes to go out on

1:06:56the street, pick up Johns, bring them

1:06:59back to the safe house.

1:07:00>> Johns?

1:07:01>> Johns, people who hire prostitutes, men

1:07:03who hire prostitutes.

1:07:05Dose the Johns with uh

1:07:07LSD

1:07:09and just see what happens.

1:07:12But, I mean, these are like serious

1:07:15crimes you're committing against people.

1:07:18>> Just reading about it here, it says

1:07:19under Operation Midnight Climax.

1:07:21>> Mhm.

1:07:22>> Interesting name. Operation Midnight

1:07:24Climax.

1:07:25>> The CIA paid sex workers to lure men to

1:07:28safe houses where agents drugged them

1:07:31and then watched them through one-way

1:07:33mirrors and recorded their behavior.

1:07:35>> Exactly.

1:07:36>> They tried to erase their personality.

1:07:40>> Nice, huh?

1:07:42>> The goal was often to break and rebuild

1:07:44the human mind.

1:07:46In 1973, the CIA director ordered mass

1:07:49destruction of the MK Ultra files.

1:07:52What we know comes from accidentally

1:07:54surviving documents, meaning this is a

1:07:56sanitized version.

1:07:57>> That day he testified before the Church

1:08:01Committee.

1:08:02The Church Committee specifically told

1:08:05him, "Do not destroy any documents."

1:08:09He went back that afternoon to the CIA

1:08:12and said, "Destroy everything."

1:08:14>> Why?

1:08:15>> Because it it was damning. They were

1:08:18experimenting on American citizens. They

1:08:21were They were experimenting by

1:08:23spreading diseases in American cities.

1:08:28And so

1:08:30he was held in contempt of Congress. He

1:08:33was fined like $150.

1:08:37And um

1:08:38about 15% of the documents were

1:08:41overlooked and survived.

1:08:44We'll never know exactly what happened

1:08:46under MK Ultra.

1:08:49>> As we sit here now, there's people on

1:08:51the streets of Iran

1:08:53that are protesting the leadership

1:08:55there.

1:08:56And the CIA the CIA are often associated

1:09:00with some of the coups going back to the

1:09:021950s and other countries toppling

1:09:04elected leaders to protect US interests.

1:09:07>> Yes.

1:09:09>> Do you think the CIA are involved in

1:09:10Iran at the moment?

1:09:12>> Probably.

1:09:13I think the Israelis are heavily

1:09:15involved in Iran at the moment. I'll

1:09:16tell you why, for a couple of reasons,

1:09:18more than a couple. Number one, in the

1:09:20so-called 12-day war that we saw last

1:09:22year,

1:09:23the Israelis were absolutely masterful

1:09:27in the way they went after

1:09:28the Iranian leadership.

1:09:30What they did was

1:09:33they

1:09:34focused on recruiting Afghan refugees.

1:09:39Iran was home to more than 2 million

1:09:42Afghan refugees

1:09:44and as

1:09:46essentially illegal aliens, they could

1:09:48not avail themselves of medical care,

1:09:53the welfare system. They're starving.

1:09:56You're right, they only eat if they can

1:09:57beg for enough to to buy food.

1:10:00And so the Israelis went to these people

1:10:02very discreetly and said, "Hey, you

1:10:03know, we'll give you $200 a month

1:10:06if you tell us where the generals live,

1:10:09in which apartments do the generals

1:10:11live, where do the nuclear scientists

1:10:12live?"

1:10:14The Israelis killed the top 12 generals

1:10:19across the entire Iranian military and

1:10:21killed almost every Iranian nuclear

1:10:24scientist.

1:10:25Because what they were able to do was to

1:10:27recruit these Afghans to not just tell

1:10:29them where they were living, where the

1:10:31generals and the scientists were living,

1:10:33but

1:10:34what their cell phone numbers were.

1:10:36And so the Israelis were able

1:10:38to geolocate the cell phones.

1:10:41And then that's where you fire the

1:10:42missile.

1:10:44They killed all of them. And then after

1:10:46the Iranians finally realized

1:10:49it's the cell phones,

1:10:51they ordered that no senior military

1:10:52officials and no scientists could carry

1:10:55cell phones.

1:10:56But it never dawned on them

1:10:59to tell the bodyguards not to carry cell

1:11:01phones. And so, the Israelis started

1:11:03rocketing the bodyguards and just killed

1:11:05everybody else.

1:11:06>> Have you ever killed anybody?

1:11:08>> No, thank God. My children asked me

1:11:09that.

1:11:10And I told them very proudly that I have

1:11:13never taken any action that resulted in

1:11:15the death of another human being.

1:11:17There's one kind of half exception.

1:11:20And I think about this all the time.

1:11:23In 1993,

1:11:27I guess it was.

1:11:30I was sitting in the morning meeting.

1:11:32I told you earlier that every unit meets

1:11:35every day at 9:00, and you just talk

1:11:37about what happened in the country that

1:11:39you cover overnight.

1:11:41I was in the morning meeting, and the

1:11:43secretary came in, and she said, "John,

1:11:46General Powell is on the phone for you.

1:11:48Call him Powell."

1:11:49I said, "General Powell, how does he

1:11:51know who I am?"

1:11:52And she said, "I don't know, but he

1:11:53asked for you by name."

1:11:56My boss is like, "Well, go answer the

1:11:57phone."

1:11:59So, I went to my desk and I said, "Good

1:12:00morning, General Powell. This is John

1:12:01Kiriakou."

1:12:03And he says, "John,

1:12:04if the Iraqis were going to kill the

1:12:06president, who would actually be in

1:12:08charge of that operation?"

1:12:11And I said, "Well, if you're talking

1:12:12about the attempt to kill President

1:12:14Bush, George H.W. Bush,

1:12:18he had been visiting Kuwait. I said,

1:12:20'Kuwait operations are run from the

1:12:23Iraqi Intelligence Service's Basra

1:12:24station."

1:12:26But, Basra station is headed by

1:12:30um Sabir Abdulaziz al-Douri, the

1:12:32director of the Iraqi Intelligence

1:12:34Service. He says, "Where does he sit?" I

1:12:36said, "Baghdad." "Where exactly in

1:12:38Baghdad?"

1:12:39I said, "If you hold on a second, I'll

1:12:41look up the address." So, I looked it

1:12:42up. I gave him the address. He says,

1:12:44"Thank you." And he hangs up the phone.

1:12:47I go back in the meeting.

1:12:49They were like, "What did he want?" I

1:12:50said, "He wanted to know

1:12:52about Sabri Badori and the attempt to

1:12:55kill President Bush. I'm like, okay.

1:12:588 hours later, we fired 47 cruise

1:13:00missiles into Iraqi intelligence service

1:13:03headquarters.

1:13:04But by then, it was the middle of the

1:13:05night in Baghdad and we killed the

1:13:07janitor.

1:13:09So the next day, I said to my boss,

1:13:12I killed that janitor.

1:13:14And he said, I knew you were going to

1:13:16say that. You didn't kill the janitor.

1:13:18You had no idea what Powell was going to

1:13:20do with the with the information.

1:13:23I said, I know, but I still feel guilty

1:13:24about it.

1:13:26Other than that, thank God,

1:13:29I never had to do it.

1:13:30I'm not sure how I would sleep at night.

1:13:34>> Do the US still assassinate people by

1:13:37the CIA?

1:13:38>> Absolutely, yes.

1:13:40When Barack Obama was president, John

1:13:42Brennan

1:13:44in the first term was the deputy

1:13:45national security advisor for

1:13:46counterterrorism and he started

1:13:48something called the Tuesday morning

1:13:51kill list meeting.

1:13:52So, it would be Brennan, it would be the

1:13:55national security council attorney,

1:13:57somebody from the CIA

1:13:59general counsel's office, and a

1:14:02representative of the director of the

1:14:04counterterrorism center. And every

1:14:05Tuesday morning, they would meet at the

1:14:06White House, come up with a list of

1:14:08people to kill that week. The teams

1:14:10would fan out around the world, kill

1:14:13their targets, and then go back and meet

1:14:15next Tuesday morning.

1:14:16>> And are these world leaders or are they

1:14:18normal people?

1:14:19>> No, these are these are ground level

1:14:21terrorists.

1:14:22>> Okay, so it could be

1:14:26someone that appears to be a normal

1:14:27civilian, but is doing something that

1:14:29they don't like.

1:14:30>> The law is

1:14:32pretty clear on this. It it's supposed

1:14:35to be somebody who poses a clear and

1:14:37present danger to the United States, to

1:14:41an American citizen, or to an American

1:14:43installation.

1:14:45>> Which can be quite a vague brief.

1:14:48>> the thing. It sounds like it's clear.

1:14:51It's actually not at all clear.

1:14:53And

1:14:54when they get back from these missions,

1:14:56we just have to take their word for it.

1:14:59>> Which um spy force around the world did

1:15:01you think was the most

1:15:04impressive?

1:15:05>> Oh, the Israelis.

1:15:07>> Really?

1:15:07>> Yeah. The Israelis

1:15:09have no rules.

1:15:11They'll kill anybody.

1:15:13Uh what was it? 3 years ago?

1:15:16This uh

1:15:18this pager operation?

1:15:19>> Oh, it was so fascinating.

1:15:21>> Good lord, it was it was a work of

1:15:23genius.

1:15:24>> It is genius. It is

1:15:26>> totally illegal.

1:15:27>> Totally illegal.

1:15:28>> But it was genius. The the moving parts

1:15:32>> I I couldn't believe it was real. I had

1:15:34to like re- I was like, "There's no way

1:15:35that this is real. This is the stuff of

1:15:37movies."

1:15:38>> It is.

1:15:39>> For anyone that doesn't know,

1:15:40what was the story?

1:15:41>> Uh yeah. Okay. So,

1:15:44the Israelis knew that Hezbollah, the

1:15:48terrorist group Hezbollah

1:15:49[clears throat] from Lebanon,

1:15:51was communicating using pagers. They

1:15:53didn't want to use cell phones cuz they

1:15:54didn't want the Israelis to intercept

1:15:56their phone calls. And they thought,

1:15:57"Oh, pagers.

1:15:58Th- Those are safe."

1:16:00So, the Israelis

1:16:03bought a company

1:16:05in like Hungary, I think it was, that

1:16:08made pagers.

1:16:10And they got Hezbollah to order the

1:16:12pagers from this company.

1:16:16They were able to insert explosives in

1:16:19the pagers. And the pagers went to like

1:16:21Taiwan, and from Taiwan to Thailand, and

1:16:24then from Thailand to I forget where,

1:16:26Syria, I guess, and then from Syria to

1:16:29Lebanon.

1:16:31And so,

1:16:32what the Israelis did was they were able

1:16:35to activate the explosives in all the

1:16:38pagers simultaneously.

1:16:40>> Killing people?

1:16:41>> They killed everybody of any import in

1:16:45Hezbollah. They essentially decapitated

1:16:48Hezbollah. And then the ones they didn't

1:16:50kill in that operation,

1:16:52they bombed the apartment buildings

1:16:54where they lived. See, this is the thing

1:16:55too about the Israelis. If they want to

1:16:57kill you,

1:16:59they won't

1:17:01they won't like just do a close in hit.

1:17:03They'll blow up the entire city block

1:17:06where you live.

1:17:08They'll kill a thousand people

1:17:10just to get you. And they don't care.

1:17:13And then then then they say, "What are

1:17:14you going to do about it? You're going

1:17:15to go to the International Court of

1:17:17Justice?"

1:17:18>> Do they Do they really do this?

1:17:19>> Yeah.

1:17:20Uh-huh.

1:17:22>> Did Did you ever interact with them?

1:17:23>> Yes.

1:17:24>> And how did you find [clears throat]

1:17:25them to be?

1:17:26>> Miserable.

1:17:28My very first briefing that I ever gave

1:17:31as a junior analyst was to the Israelis.

1:17:34My boss said, "Okay," he says, "you're

1:17:36going to give your first classified

1:17:38liaison briefing.

1:17:40So, [snorts]

1:17:41it's going to be the Israelis and there

1:17:42are a couple things you should know." I

1:17:44said, "Okay." He said, "We don't allow

1:17:46the Israelis into the building

1:17:49ever." I said, "Why not?" He said, "Cuz

1:17:51they spy on us. Not only do they spy on

1:17:53us, they would always bring gifts. Like,

1:17:56"Oh, we brought this wonderful gift for

1:17:58you."

1:17:59And then you Every Every time somebody

1:18:01tries to bring something in, you have to

1:18:02x-ray it.

1:18:03And it's got like listening devices and

1:18:05it's packed with 2 years' worth of

1:18:07batteries. We're like, "You guys, you

1:18:09have to stop doing this. Every time you

1:18:11come here, you try to bug our conference

1:18:12rooms. You got It's bad form. You have

1:18:14to stop doing it." And then they're

1:18:16like, "Ho ho ho,

1:18:17okay, okay. We knew you would find it.

1:18:19We're just kidding." Come on.

1:18:22So, we have to meet them

1:18:25miles away from headquarters

1:18:27in a place that we rent.

1:18:30So,

1:18:32he said,

1:18:34"Nothing over for secret level. No top

1:18:36secret information, just up to secret.

1:18:39I'm like, "Okay." So, I go with like a

1:18:40dozen analysts. And because I'm the

1:18:43junior-most analyst, I've only been on

1:18:45the job at this point, I'm going to say

1:18:476 weeks or so,

1:18:49I went last.

1:18:50So, the first analyst says, "I'm the

1:18:52chief analyst, and this is my briefing."

1:18:54And then the next guy says, "I'm the

1:18:56political analyst, and I'm the econ

1:18:58analyst, and I'm the military analyst,

1:18:59and I'm the oil analyst, and

1:19:01you know, the tech analyst." And then it

1:19:03comes to me.

1:19:04So, I said,

1:19:06because I was overt at the time, I was

1:19:08not undercover, I said, "My name is John

1:19:11Kiriakou, and I'm going to brief you on

1:19:13Saddam Hussein's psychological state of

1:19:15mind."

1:19:17Well, there were two Israelis there. One

1:19:19was from Mossad, and one was from Shin

1:19:21Bet. Shin Bet is the FBI of Israel, and

1:19:25Mossad is the CIA of Israel.

1:19:28So, the Shin Bet guy has his glasses

1:19:30down like this, and he he he goes like

1:19:32this, he says, "Spell your name."

1:19:36So, I spell it, K I R, I spell it. And

1:19:39he goes,

1:19:40"You are

1:19:43Jewish?"

1:19:44I said, "Don't you dare.

1:19:47I am not recruitable.

1:19:48Don't you dare even try it."

1:19:52I was furious.

1:19:53We went out of the briefing, I was going

1:19:55to explode. Everybody started laughing

1:19:57at me. They're like, "They do that to

1:19:59every one of us."

1:20:02Every one of us.

1:20:03>> They try and recruit you?

1:20:04>> Yeah.

1:20:05>> To turn against the United States?

1:20:07>> Yeah.

1:20:09On my very first day at the CIA, we got

1:20:11a briefing from the CIA's director of

1:20:13security.

1:20:14And he said

1:20:15that all of us have to have in the very

1:20:18front of our minds

1:20:20the concept of counterintelligence. For

1:20:22example, he said, "There's a steakhouse

1:20:25right down the road on Route 123. It's

1:20:28the It's the nearest restaurant to the

1:20:30CIA." He goes, "Don't ever eat there."

1:20:34Why?

1:20:36Because the KGB thinks we all eat there.

1:20:39So, all the customers are KGB officers

1:20:42waiting for CIA people to walk in and

1:20:44start talking about work. Don't ever eat

1:20:46there. I've never eaten there. To this

1:20:48day.

1:20:49>> Because they're potentially Russian

1:20:50spies.

1:20:51>> Mhm.

1:20:51So, he said,

1:20:54"Our Israeli friends

1:20:56have two officers in their embassy. One

1:20:59from Mossad, one from Shin Bet.

1:21:01The FBI has identified 187 undeclared

1:21:05Israeli intelligence

1:21:08officers spread all across the United

1:21:11States, mostly at defense contractors

1:21:15trying to steal our secrets.

1:21:17Now, we give the Israelis 95%

1:21:22of our defense secrets. You want the

1:21:23F-35? Done. Here's the F-35. You want

1:21:26this advanced missile? Here you go. It's

1:21:28on us.

1:21:29So, they steal the remaining 5%.

1:21:34>> Do you think Jeffrey Epstein was a spy?

1:21:38>> I believe very strongly he was a spy,

1:21:40yes.

1:21:41>> And who do you think he was working for?

1:21:42>> The Israelis. I'm confident it was the

1:21:45Israelis.

1:21:46>> Why?

1:21:47Jeffrey Epstein

1:21:50is kind of the stereotypical example

1:21:54that they give you in training for

1:21:56what's called an access agent. This is a

1:21:59different kind of recruit.

1:22:01So, for example, if you're a foreign

1:22:04intelligence service and you want

1:22:06information, like close-in information

1:22:09from

1:22:10a former president,

1:22:12from the CEO of the biggest company in

1:22:15the world, from a member of the British

1:22:17royal family, you're not going to

1:22:18recruit these guys. You're not going to

1:22:20recruit Bill Clinton or Bill Gates or

1:22:22Prince Andrew.

1:22:24So, you do the next best thing.

1:22:27You somebody who has regular access to

1:22:29them.

1:22:30And that person that you recruit is

1:22:32going to need to make these people feel

1:22:34comfortable and appreciated.

1:22:37And so you give him plenty of money.

1:22:40So he has this

1:22:41house on an island or he has the whole

1:22:43island and maybe you bring in young

1:22:46girls, you get them in compromising

1:22:49positions.

1:22:50Just in case you need to use what's

1:22:52called compromat.

1:22:54Compromising

1:22:56pictures.

1:22:58We know We know now that Jeffrey

1:23:00Epstein's house

1:23:02on the island

1:23:04had video cameras

1:23:07hidden video cameras in literally every

1:23:09room including the bathrooms.

1:23:12Why?

1:23:15Uh why would he care

1:23:17what was going on unless it was to use

1:23:20that information against people?

1:23:22As I said, only the Israelis and the

1:23:26Russians use

1:23:29extortion as a motivator.

1:23:33>> So would they have made Jeffrey Epstein

1:23:35rich?

1:23:36>> Yeah.

1:23:36>> to give him that access.

1:23:38>> Yes. How how could they have done that?

1:23:40>> Oh, that's easy. I mean, you you do

1:23:43>> [snorts]

1:23:43>> I mean, governments are the only ones

1:23:45really that can money

1:23:46that can launder money unfettered.

1:23:49And you can also do it through real

1:23:50estate, through fine art, and through

1:23:52horses.

1:23:53Those are the three easiest ways to

1:23:55launder money

1:23:57today.

1:23:58Fine art, real estate, and racehorses.

1:24:02>> But presumably

1:24:04he would have spoken out at some point,

1:24:06no? He would have said something or

1:24:08>> No.

1:24:09But it would explain why he got a

1:24:10sweetheart deal in 2006. I mean, this is

1:24:13a guy that's been convicted of child sex

1:24:16crimes.

1:24:17And he gets 6 months of house arrest

1:24:20with an ankle bracelet?

1:24:21We have mandatory minimums in this

1:24:23country. That's a 5-year mandatory

1:24:24minimum first offense.

1:24:26>> He definitely had some interesting

1:24:27power, didn't he?

1:24:29>> Mhm. And

1:24:31Alex Acosta,

1:24:33who was the prosecuting attorney at the

1:24:35time and then later became Secretary of

1:24:37Labor under Trump, Trump won.

1:24:40Alex Acosta said that he was ordered

1:24:44by the Attorney General

1:24:46to give Epstein the sweetheart deal.

1:24:48Well, who's the only person that can

1:24:50order the Attorney General to do

1:24:51something?

1:24:52It's the president.

1:24:55So,

1:24:57was it because

1:24:59Epstein was was working on Clinton?

1:25:02Most of the people down there were

1:25:03Democrats. I mean, what what was

1:25:06the reason?

1:25:08>> Maybe he was working for the US

1:25:09government.

1:25:10>> It's possible that he could have been

1:25:12doubled against the Israelis or others.

1:25:15Sure.

1:25:17Sure, that's possible.

1:25:18>> If you had to bet,

1:25:20what would you say? If you had to bet

1:25:22everything you have

1:25:24on either him being a spy or not a spy,

1:25:27>> Yeah.

1:25:28>> What would you bet on?

1:25:29>> He was a spy.

1:25:30I feel very confident in that

1:25:32assessment.

1:25:34I debated Alan Dershowitz about this on

1:25:36the Piers Morgan show one time.

1:25:38It was it was Scott Horton and me

1:25:41who said

1:25:42that he was an Israeli spy. And it was

1:25:44Alan Dershowitz

1:25:46and General Danny Ayalon, the former

1:25:48head of Mossad.

1:25:51Ayalon was kind of

1:25:53into it in terms of having a fun time.

1:25:55He was just having a fun time with the

1:25:57conversation.

1:25:58He wasn't going to admit to anything.

1:26:00Dershowitz was Epstein's attorney.

1:26:03So, I said that that I believed Epstein

1:26:07was an Israeli spy. And Dershowitz

1:26:09interrupts me like attorneys do.

1:26:12And he says, "That is outrageous.

1:26:15If he had been a spy, he would have told

1:26:18me because I was his attorney and I

1:26:20could have gone to the White House and I

1:26:22could have gotten him a better sentence.

1:26:24And I said, "Wait a minute.

1:26:26You could have gone to the White House

1:26:28to say, 'Go easy on Jeffrey Epstein

1:26:30because he's an Israeli spy collecting

1:26:33information from American politicians?'

1:26:36If I were the president, I would have

1:26:38hung him from a tree."

1:26:41And then Piers Morgan said, "General

1:26:42Ayalon, was he a spy?" And he goes,

1:26:46>> [laughter]

1:26:48>> "Who knows?"

1:26:49>> Who knows?

1:26:52>> I said, "Come on, man."

1:26:53>> Who do you think is the real

1:26:56adversary of the West? Cuz we often talk

1:26:58about it being Russia or

1:27:00>> I think it's China.

1:27:01>> Why?

1:27:02What is it that we don't realize about

1:27:03China and their agenda?

1:27:05>> Oh, wow. So much. The Chinese are so

1:27:09good at what they do. And the Chinese

1:27:11are so patient. You know, in the United

1:27:14States,

1:27:15we we don't have long-term timelines for

1:27:18for anything. When we want something, we

1:27:20want it now.

1:27:21>> Is that in part because we have this

1:27:234-year election cycle?

1:27:24>> Yes. I believe that it is. The Chinese

1:27:27will plan for something 25 years down

1:27:29the road.

1:27:29>> Because they'll still be in power then.

1:27:32>> Yeah.

1:27:33And so,

1:27:34you know, they're really good at

1:27:36stealing technology.

1:27:38There are more Chinese PhD students in

1:27:41the hard hard sciences here in the

1:27:42United States than you can shake a stick

1:27:45at. They're everywhere. They're they're

1:27:47at every major university and they're

1:27:48really really smart.

1:27:52And then oftentimes they'll say, "Oh,

1:27:53you know, I've had such a great

1:27:54experience here. I'd like to stay in the

1:27:56United States." Yeah, I bet you would.

1:27:59I bet you would.

1:28:00So you can spy for China.

1:28:02>> Do you think that's happening?

1:28:04>> Every single day.

1:28:06>> You think that

1:28:08Chinese students are in America spying

1:28:10on behalf of China?

1:28:11>> Yes.

1:28:13Yes.

1:28:13>> How could you be so sure?

1:28:15>> I'm 1,000% sure.

1:28:17>> How could you be so sure?

1:28:18>> Because we frequently arrest them and

1:28:21then trade them for Americans who are in

1:28:23Chinese prisons.

1:28:25>> Hm.

1:28:26>> [clears throat]

1:28:26>> Yeah.

1:28:28>> And they're masquerading as students.

1:28:31>> Mhm.

1:28:32PhD candidates, always in the hard

1:28:34sciences, always.

1:28:37>> So, China are the long-term adversary.

1:28:39>> And what is it that they want?

1:28:40>> China want? What is it they're doing?

1:28:44And what is the outcome?

1:28:44>> they want a couple of things. I think

1:28:46that

1:28:48on a more immediate basis, they want

1:28:49reunification with Taiwan. It's going to

1:28:51happen someday. Even the Taiwanese will

1:28:53tell you, "Yes, we're a part of China,

1:28:56but we're kind of not a part of China.

1:28:59We're not really independent, but we are

1:29:00kind of independent."

1:29:02Even American policy is that Taiwan is a

1:29:05part of China.

1:29:06And eventually someday they'll be

1:29:08reunited.

1:29:09>> Do you think with everything that's

1:29:11going on at the moment with Trump and

1:29:12Venezuela and Greenland, this is going

1:29:14to create cover for

1:29:16>> Oh, I was hoping you would ask me a

1:29:17question like that.

1:29:19I think that's very That's a very

1:29:20important issue that that the media

1:29:23really aren't talking about.

1:29:26So,

1:29:28let's put it in the context of what

1:29:29happened last week in Venezuela because

1:29:32it

1:29:32they're all moving parts of the same of

1:29:36the same policy.

1:29:38So,

1:29:41we we sent a Delta Force squad into

1:29:43Venezuela a week ago and we snatched

1:29:46President Maduro and he faces

1:29:48international narcotics trafficking

1:29:50charges in New York. Okay? Some people

1:29:52are for that, some people are against

1:29:54it.

1:29:55Whether you're for it or against it,

1:29:57it's happened. There's nothing we can do

1:29:58about it now.

1:29:59But,

1:30:02that operation may have inadvertently