Robert Greene: How To Seduce Anyone, Build Confidence & Become Powerful | E232

0:00some of the greatest seducers who are

0:01not good looking at all what are the

0:04qualities of a great Seducer I'm

0:07revealing stuff I shouldn't be revealing

0:09Robert Greene is one of the best-selling

0:11authors in history an internationally

0:12renowned expert on power strategies and

0:15referencing songs by Jay-Z Kanye West

0:18and Drake written six International

0:19bestsellers that have become legendary

0:21why did you write a book about seduction

0:23seduction is in high form of power

0:26people will do what you want without

0:28ever even realizing seduction is a

0:31mating ritual you can't just swipe and

0:33get it but because of all the dating

0:35apps if you are able to understand the

0:38language of Seduction you're going to

0:39have so much more power and success than

0:41anybody else one thing about words is

0:43people can lie but body language it

0:45doesn't lie you master that language you

0:48can start deciphering all these people

0:50are giving you it's about psychology and

0:52it's about how you carry yourself if you

0:54feel confident it will naturally radiate

0:56through your gestures but what is real

0:58confidence and how does one build it

1:00confidence comes from

1:02you've talked about the topic of powers

1:04but in 2018 you had a stroke in that

1:07moment it sounds like your power had

1:09been taken from you the left side of my

1:11body is paralyzed and that was not easy

1:13I've got to find a strategy to deal with

1:15all this please understand that the

1:17ability that you have now to run to walk

1:20to type you can be taken away from you

1:22it's miserable please don't take it for

1:24granted

1:27foreign

1:30before we get into this episode just

1:32wanted to say thank you first and

1:33foremost for being part of this

1:35community

1:36um the team here at the diver Co is now

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1:45grow and it's the greatest honor of my

1:47life to sit here with these incredible

1:48people and just selfishly ask them

1:51questions that I'm pondering over or

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2:21[Music]

2:28what do I need to know about you and

2:30your your earliest years to to

2:32understand the life that you went on

2:34that Journey you went on and the person

2:36you came to be well I grew up here in

2:38Los Angeles not far from where we are in

2:41a neighborhoods called Baldwin Hills and

2:43then we move to another neighborhood

2:46a very nice childhood very middle class

2:48family my father was a Salesman his

2:52whole life worked for the same company

2:53for 40 years just sold chemical supplies

2:58um and you know my parents kind of left

3:01me alone a lot I was basically my sister

3:04almost kind of raised me in a way and

3:06and you know I had a very nice childhood

3:08kind of left alone sort of an introvert

3:12books kind of shaped me I became an Avid

3:15Reader in early age

3:17no knew I wanted to be a writer got

3:20heavily into drugs I'm afraid in high

3:22school because that's that was the time

3:24and where I went to school and in

3:26college had some great experiences I

3:29looked very fondly back even on my drug

3:31experiences even though they got kind of

3:33depressing after a while

3:34but it kind of shaped me in in some ways

3:38and you know that was that was me

3:40growing up you know and if I had an

3:42attitude or a lens in which I looked at

3:45people from a distance like I was always

3:47sort of Obsessed

3:49with people wore masks and the way I

3:53looked at it even when I looked at my my

3:55parents and their friends and I said

3:56what is really going on behind their the

3:59masks that they were in all the social

4:00nice cities going on

4:03what is behind what is really the human

4:06animal like and so these are kind of the

4:09themes that

4:10that were make big part of my Me growing

4:13up

4:14from what I read you had

4:16a lot of different jobs and a lot of

4:18different Industries up until the point

4:19when you wrote

4:20um the first of your many books called

4:22the 48 Laws of Power back in 1998 and I

4:26was looking at all of these different

4:27jobs you'd had and they all seem to be

4:29completely different from one another so

4:31then trying to understand how you

4:32arrived at a moment where you then wrote

4:34a book on the topic and subject matter

4:36of power

4:38um having not been you know a psychology

4:41graduate or seemingly worked in any

4:45industry related to like human

4:46psychology seemed to be really peculiar

4:48to me

4:50yeah and also I never really had a lot

4:53of power up until that point so it

4:54wasn't like I knew everything about

4:56being a leader or anything

4:59um you know a lot of things that happen

5:00in life are kind of by coincidence or

5:03serendipitous you don't necessarily plan

5:06on it which is sort of when you look

5:08back on it you can see a kind of an odd

5:10plan going on like a Destiny or fate but

5:13in the moment I didn't feel that

5:15um I had all of these different jobs as

5:17you mentioned some of them completely

5:19unrelated you know I worked in

5:21construction I had a construction job I

5:23worked in the detective agency I was a

5:26tour guide to help write an encyclopedia

5:28I taught English in Spain you know on

5:31and on and on and on and on

5:33but I was searching I wanted to be a

5:36writer and a writer needs experiences

5:39I just was hungry for weird experiences

5:42you know I never really stuck at any one

5:44job and by the time you're 37 38

5:47you know my parents are starting to

5:49worry about me I'm starting to worry

5:50about me I'm getting a little bit

5:51depressed even have moments for suicidal

5:54thoughts are floating in my brain like

5:55I'm very ambitious I know I could do

5:58something well but it's never come

6:00together and so here's the Serendipity

6:03part I'm in Italy for a job one of my 80

6:05different jobs and I meet a man who's a

6:08book packager there

6:10on this particular job we're on and he's

6:14he's a Dutchman I'm not going to imitate

6:15him but he asked me if I had any ideas

6:17for a book

6:19and suddenly all of the painful

6:22experiences in my life working in

6:24Hollywood all the I've worked

6:26for all these weird politicking all the

6:29manipulative games all the crap that I

6:31had seen it just came like almost

6:33vomiting out of me and I said you know

6:36here we are it's 20 this was 19 20th

6:40century back then here we are in the

6:41late 20th century

6:43and people don't dress like they did in

6:46the days of Machiavelli right they don't

6:48wear wigs and stuff but it's the same

6:50damn thing it's the same bloody battles

6:53going on the same manipulations the same

6:56kind of you know people don't reveal who

6:58they are

6:59and it's a Timeless game of power just

7:02the same as Louis

7:04xivari Borgia or the people the CEOs in

7:08the late 20th century it says tout this

7:10Timeless thing and I as I'm telling him

7:12this his eyes are lighting he's wow this

7:15could be this could really be a book

7:17and you know

7:19he said look Robert I'll pay you to live

7:22while you write half the book and then

7:24we'll sell it

7:25and as I told you before I was desperate

7:28it was my get rich or die trying moment

7:30I went back to Los Angeles I borrowed

7:33money from my parents because I was that

7:34poor

7:35and I wrote a treatment and he loved it

7:38and that the rest is history that's sort

7:40of my long-winded answer to your

7:42question that's so interesting it's

7:45crazy how in life

7:46things can just take such a

7:49ton out of nothing and you never know

7:52what that thing is going to be and I

7:55mean you say the rest is history there

7:56give me an idea of the success of that

7:59book the 48 Laws of Power because I mean

8:01I've seen it everywhere for for as long

8:03as I've been looking at books so what's

8:06the give me some quantify the global

8:07success of that book

8:09quantify yeah

8:11well here in the U.S it's it's sold

8:13quite a bit over 2 million copies which

8:16is great and the weird thing is it's

8:19selling now more than it ever has sold

8:21before in other words the the percentage

8:23of books that we're selling here in 2023

8:26is greater than any period before so

8:30it's accelerating which is insane you

8:32know and even my English Publishers

8:34having the same uh is telling me the

8:36same stuff

8:38so it's kind of accumulated it it

8:40started off a little bit slowly I mean

8:42we got press but it became this kind of

8:45cult thing I've had very little

8:47publicity in mainstream media which was

8:50big back then it's not big anymore thank

8:52God but um

8:54it was word of mouth it's like if you

8:57heard about this book it's kind of dark

8:58blah blah blah blah it got on a few

9:00television shows there was this show a

9:03reality show with boxers I think it was

9:05called the contender in which the

9:07finalist held up a copy of the book and

9:09said this book helped me get to where I

9:11am now and it sold like crazy it got

9:14into the hip-hop stream you know Jay-Z

9:17was the first person I ever saw quoting

9:19the book in in print and in Playboy

9:22interview and then you know 50 Cent and

9:25all that and Drake and all these people

9:26that really kind of set it into the

9:28stratosphere so it's it's slowly become

9:32a bigger and bigger thing and um

9:35I had no idea you know I thought it was

9:37a weird book and it could be successful

9:39but I had no idea the journey I was

9:41about to begin it's it's weird that

9:45journey of writing this book has your

9:47have your feelings towards the book

9:49evolved or changed over time because

9:51Society moves on you move on as an

9:54individual as a human you learn new

9:55things you mature and then the book is

9:57kind of held in time

9:59not really

10:01um I I my philosophy in life is is never

10:04look back regret nothing you know it's

10:06it's there I did it it came in a

10:09particular moment in my life and in in

10:11the Zeitgeist and things have changed a

10:14little bit

10:15but I was it was a very serious effort

10:18to try and get it something Timeless now

10:21yes there's a dark side to it and maybe

10:23I've moved on from that and I did

10:26honestly when I wrote my fourth book

10:28mastery

10:29I was a little bit concerned that young

10:32people were getting to were thinking

10:35that the whole game of life is about

10:37politics manipulation so I wrote a book

10:40to kind of counter that

10:42but I I think the book is is true and

10:45it's held up I think

10:48if I look at business what's going on in

10:50the business world I kind of got I think

10:53I hit it on the nail about what goes on

10:55in the Dynamics and the power game

10:58you know I wrote a book on human nature

11:00and the idea is we were formed hundreds

11:04of thousands of years ago in particular

11:05circumstances our brains are wired a

11:08certain way yes we're very sophisticated

11:11yes we have the internet yes I'm here

11:13being interviewed by you on a podcast

11:15it's pretty insane but we haven't

11:18fundamentally changed the same raw

11:21emotions of Envy of aggression of of you

11:25know worrying about our status about

11:28having to disguise ourselves and appear

11:30like we're saintly and loving that we

11:33don't have a shadow which we all have

11:35none of that has changed so yeah I

11:39wouldn't write that book now because I'm

11:41at a different place in life and and I

11:43understand that but

11:45I have I don't I'm not ashamed of it in

11:47any way I stand by it and I think I

11:49hitted something real

11:50what is in your definition what is power

11:54you know I was really compelled when

11:55you're talking about the evolution

11:56evolutionary roots of power but like at

11:58its Essence what is power

12:01it's not what you think it is it's not

12:03you know Vladimir Putin or presidents or

12:07Biden or all these political figures and

12:09these big games Power is a feeling it's

12:11in essence it's an emotion it's a it's a

12:14human need and desire

12:16and really what power is is a sense of

12:20understanding yourself and and being

12:22able to control yourself so the way I

12:25look at it I like to look at it not

12:27through the lens of great power politics

12:29but as an average everyday human being

12:32here in the United States or in England

12:35the feeling that you have with your

12:38children with your spouse with your

12:42colleagues the people who work for you

12:45the sense that you have no control that

12:48you can't influence them with your ideas

12:50that you can't get them to maybe you

12:54know soften some of their ugly Behavior

12:56if they if they have that that you can't

12:58get them interested in helping you with

13:00a project or whatever is the most

13:02miserable feeling a human being can have

13:04Malcolm X out a quote that I love which

13:07is

13:08absolute power corrupts but absolute

13:11powerless corrupts even more

13:14I'm I'm butchering it but that was the

13:16gist of it the feeling of powerlessness

13:19is actually more corrupting than the

13:21feeling of having a lot of power

13:23you it makes it turns people into being

13:27passive aggressive into playing all

13:28kinds of weird games negative games to

13:31get power

13:32you want to feel that you have a degree

13:35of control over events in your life over

13:38people over your future and that to me

13:41is what a power is right and so some of

13:46that involves these games that I I

13:48mentioned in there and some of it goes

13:51beyond the 48 Laws of Power which I've

13:53tried to indicate in my other books

13:56but it's the sense that I'm not helpless

13:59in this world

14:00I remember when I first entered the work

14:02world as a very naive college graduate

14:06with all these ideals and things I'd

14:08read because I was studying literature

14:10and languages

14:12going man this is weird people are

14:14playing all these kind of games I mean

14:16over my head I made mistakes I got fired

14:19for being you know too Brash for

14:21outshine the master it was painful right

14:25and so

14:27learning you don't have to abuse the

14:29loss of power I don't Advocate crushing

14:31your enemy totally I hope I don't have

14:34any enemies ever that I need to crush

14:36ever

14:37you just need to know these things so

14:39that when you enter the work world

14:40you're not naive you're not stupid you

14:42don't make the same kind of mistakes

14:43that I made you spare yourself with pain

14:45you understand the most fundamental

14:47thing about human nature

14:49people have egos

14:51even your boss has an ego you think he

14:54he or she doesn't because they're

14:56powerful they have they're even more

14:58insecure than other people you need to

15:00be aware of these things so that you

15:03don't inadvertently make them feel

15:05insecure and suffer the consequences

15:07so um that's I don't know that's sort of

15:10my idea of power that I was trying to

15:13describe there the way you describe it

15:15is more of a sort of intrinsic

15:17um Force perception of yourself when

15:20people think of power they think of

15:22having control over others or their

15:25influence over others but you've kind of

15:26made it more of a internal

15:29Force yeah well if you can't control

15:31yourself then you're in a lot of trouble

15:33in this world right because

15:36when you just naturally are yourself

15:38doing things you're going to offend

15:39people you learn early on we're social

15:41animals I have to tailor my behavior you

15:44know if you go on babbling about all

15:47about how you feel and think Etc and you

15:49just say what's the first thing on your

15:50mind you're going to end up having a

15:51very very short career you're going to

15:54be saying things that are going to

15:55offend people you're going to be making

15:57a fool of your yourself you'd be saying

15:59things that you end up regretting right

16:01so you have no self-control

16:04and if you see somebody who has no

16:06self-control it makes them it makes you

16:09look like you're not powerful if you

16:11can't control yourself how can you

16:13control anything in your environment how

16:15can you be a leader right so you have to

16:18learn

16:19certain things about about your nature

16:22about who you are and and not just just

16:25be anybody you have to kind of tailor

16:27your appearances as well

16:29because for good or for bad I'm a

16:32Believer in looking at the human animal

16:34without shame and embarrassment just as

16:37we are right and appearances matter it's

16:42the animal part of our nature we we're

16:44we look at we look we judge people by

16:46how they how they how they appear how

16:49they dress their tone to voice their

16:52body language etc etc

16:54it would be in an Ideal World

16:57we wouldn't judge people by appearances

16:59we just judge them by what's inside of

17:01them yes I agree with that but that

17:03we're not ideal we're not descended from

17:05Angels we're descended from primates so

17:09you have to understand that appearances

17:11matter and this is part of of the game

17:15and so

17:16you have to control your appearances a

17:18little bit you have to tailor it you

17:19have to be a bit of actor in this world

17:21on and on and on

17:23you know these are things that people

17:26don't like to admit about ourselves we

17:28like to think that we we're much more

17:30have much more idealistic that we're

17:33that these things really don't matter in

17:35the end

17:36and I wish it were that way but it's not

17:38and so um I'm a bit more of a realist

17:41when it comes to things like that but

17:43yeah

17:44as you were talking about this

17:47need to keep up appearances to some

17:49degree in order to survive and to fit

17:51into the the tribes that we form in our

17:53lives it made me think about how many

17:55guests I've had on this podcast who work

17:58in maybe the entertainment industry or

18:00other Industries yeah you know they're

18:01famous whatever and they report that

18:05Keeping Up Appearances had a really

18:07detrimental impact on their happiness

18:09and their fulfillment in life because in

18:12some cases they you know it meant that

18:13they were doing a job as a presenter and

18:15had to always be happy when inside they

18:17didn't feel that and maybe the contrast

18:18of reality and

18:20um and perception caused them a lot of

18:22harm or they've built a life around

18:24things that they're not interested in I

18:25think you touched on some of that in

18:27Mastery yeah

18:28um that's the that's the question I have

18:30which is keeping up appearances and the

18:31impact that that has on your happiness

18:33are you wearing a mask

18:35um and happiness what's the relationship

18:38I talk about it in the 48 Laws of Power

18:41where

18:42you have to play this this game in life

18:44it's a con to me it's a form of wisdom

18:46which is

18:49it's a wisdom that used to exist like in

18:51the 18th century I read a book that had

18:54a big impact on me many years ago called

18:57the fall of public Man by Richard Senate

19:00in which he described like Cafe life in

19:04London in the 18th century or France and

19:08he was saying back then when you entered

19:09the public Arena or your Cafe you knew

19:12you were an actor you left the house you

19:15put on the mask and you had fun you know

19:18you knew it was like fun it was play you

19:20know when you're a child you like

19:22playing games you like putting on

19:24costumes you like playing your parents

19:26or some character you saw on TV it's

19:29part of human nature we like to play

19:31these games where role players we're

19:33actors and he was saying in the 18th

19:35century that was just a given in life

19:37that when you entered the public realm

19:39you knew you were an actor and then when

19:41you went home

19:42to your wife your family or your husband

19:45or wherever

19:46you drop the mask you went you breathe

19:49the Deep Side relief go now I can be who

19:51I am right and and it wasn't a problem

19:54it didn't create neuroses it didn't

19:56create this like what's wrong with me

19:58I'm I don't know who I am anymore

20:00so people now the problem now is we

20:04don't have distance from that social

20:06realm and so we think that if we're

20:09acting that's who we are but it's not

20:12it's just that's part of being a social

20:14animal is playing a role you know I did

20:17a book with 50 Cent and he kind of

20:20exemplifies a lot of that

20:23he plays a role in life you know when I

20:25met him I I thought uh oh

20:28I was kind of intimidating I was a

20:30little bit afraid you know the thug this

20:32is a guy when I met him he was you know

20:34just a few years away from being shot

20:36and all this stuff

20:37and I met him

20:39and he was the nicest person well he was

20:41almost kind of sweet he'd hate it if I

20:43said that word but he was sweet right he

20:46was very down to earth he was very calm

20:48Etc he's playing a role when he goes out

20:51and he plays that person he knows it he

20:53knows it's like he doesn't take it

20:55seriously you know he had this big beef

20:58with Kanye West back when I was doing

21:00the the the book with him and then I met

21:04the two of them in Vegas when they were

21:05there for the awards they were like the

21:07best of friends they were joking it was

21:08just a game they were playing right so

21:11what I tell people is

21:13we all are actors

21:15humans are born actors we learn at a

21:18very early age to play that kind of game

21:21it's kind of fun sometimes to do that

21:23you know have it enjoy that part of life

21:26but don't think that it don't get

21:28confused with who you are in your

21:30essence

21:31that's sort of the dance you're playing

21:33between those two things I understand

21:35what you're saying and a lot of it has

21:37to do as you said related to Mastery

21:39where people end up in a career

21:42that doesn't suit them

21:44and I look I I think I understand what

21:47you're getting at or I look at like

21:49presenters or people in the news and

21:51they have to smile and be so cheerful

21:54like man what a drag I'd hate to be like

21:57that you know that is so false don't you

22:00feel kind of don't you want to take a

22:01shower after you being so cheerful and

22:04chatty and all that you know yeah I

22:06understand that

22:08but if if that's the profession you

22:10chose and you love it then maybe you

22:12don't feel that way I couldn't do it

22:14personally but you know I think

22:17I think it's okay

22:19think of yourself as an actor I don't

22:21think there's anything wrong about that

22:23um the second very curious lower in your

22:26book that I uncovered was it was low

22:28number two I'm talking about the 48 Laws

22:30of Power here where it says never trust

22:31friends too much

22:33learn how to use enemies yeah do you

22:35trust your friends

22:38okay well everything in the book is

22:40context so when you take things out of

22:42context it's a little harder to

22:44understand and what I'm trying to say in

22:47that

22:47I'm talking about in the Work World when

22:50you're out in the social realm and one

22:52of the worst things that people do is

22:54you have a job and I've been guilty of

22:58it myself even after I wrote the damn

22:59book

23:00you're out in the work world and you

23:02need to hire somebody you need to find a

23:04colleague you need to find some a

23:06partner or an employee

23:09your mind naturally gravitates towards a

23:11friend right because they know you you

23:14trust them you have a relationship you

23:17know and you feel comfortable with them

23:18and it's a terrible mistake

23:21so many of the worst things have

23:23happened in history are because of that

23:25very problem

23:26because friends is there's all these

23:30emotions involved between people right

23:32and those emotions confuse the issue so

23:35what I'm talking about in that law is

23:38when you need to get results you need to

23:40think when you have a job or something

23:41you have to think in Practical terms not

23:44in terms of emotions not in terms of

23:46friendship etc etc

23:49so you want to keep your work world

23:51separate

23:53it's not everything about life is having

23:55to be friends and having nice things and

23:58everybody like you

23:59sometimes what matters is getting

24:01results done and sometimes the best

24:03person to work with isn't your friend

24:06because they don't have all this other

24:07stuff that we're talking about in fact

24:11a very powerful move is if there's an

24:13enemy out there somebody who you never

24:17got along with

24:19if you say if you approach them and say

24:22let's bury the hatchet you know I have a

24:25job and I'd really like you to work with

24:27me I know you're really smart

24:29that per the turnaround of emotions is a

24:31very powerful thing where they're going

24:34wow yeah sure that's that's great I

24:37never expected that and they're all

24:39they're highly motivated to now prove

24:41that they're worthy of of your of your

24:44change of mind

24:45so

24:47it's not about not trusting your friends

24:50in the realm of friendship in personal

24:52relationships it's about being aware

24:55that the work world is different from

24:57the realm of personal relationships the

24:59other point I found really curious was

25:01was put 0.3 about concealing your

25:04intentions and yeah I I find this

25:06curious because I've never really known

25:07where to land on this when people ask me

25:09for advice on the subject matter about

25:11how much of your hand should you show

25:14whether it's in business or life or

25:16whatever there's a there's a group of

25:18people that think you should always just

25:19keep everything you're doing and your

25:20intentions totally secret because then

25:23people might copy you or they'll attack

25:24you whatever and then there's another

25:25school of thought that says when you're

25:27building something when you're doing

25:28something when you have a mission you

25:29need to share it with as many people as

25:31possible because that will Galvanize

25:32people to to come along with the journey

25:34with you and they'll want to support you

25:35and help you so when I read

25:38um Point number three about concealing

25:39your intentions

25:40I wanted to ask you about what what you

25:44think about that which side do you land

25:45on well everything depends on

25:47circumstances so the laws are never

25:50meant to apply to every situation right

25:52so when it's with your own team and

25:56you're trying to inspire them and you're

25:57trying to give them a vision you try to

25:58get them on your side yeah you share

26:01your vision with them you share this is

26:02where the group is going this is where I

26:04want things to be in three years let's

26:07all get together we're trying to do

26:09something very positive for the world

26:10okay here we here's my plan right but

26:14then there's circumstances where

26:16revealing everything that you about what

26:18you're planning to do is actually very

26:20counterproductive right so the business

26:23world

26:24in the 21st century is extremely

26:27competitive it's getting worse and worse

26:29by the day as more and more people now

26:31are entering the power Arena and I think

26:34it's a great thing where it used to be

26:36just a realm where only older white men

26:38had power and now it's the doors have

26:40opened everyone the comp level of

26:43competition is that much more intense

26:45particularly now even with the internet

26:47you have Rivals out there you have

26:50competitors out there even as we talk

26:52right now maybe you're not thinking

26:53about them but they are they're going to

26:55steal your ideas they're looking to take

26:57your business away from you

26:59etc etc just be aware of that phenomenon

27:02and just always saying what you're

27:04planning on doing isn't always the

27:06wisest thing to do sometimes if you're

27:10in a tricky situation

27:12making putting people off the scent

27:14giving them a red herring and saying I'm

27:16planning to do this when in fact you're

27:17planning to do that it's very powerful

27:20technique it's deception but all's fair

27:23in Love and War and business I'm I'm

27:25afraid so you know there are moments

27:29where you don't want to lay all your

27:31cards out on the table right you want to

27:33either create a little bit of mystery so

27:37that people don't know what you're going

27:39to do next and they're wondering what

27:40you're going to do next

27:42and as they're wondering what you're

27:43going to do next they're kind of on

27:46their heels a little bit what's the next

27:48thing that that Stephen is planning I

27:50don't really know wow you know it makes

27:53it it's a very powerful approach there

27:55are other times and other experiences

27:58and moments in life where you do want to

27:59reveal what you're planning to do

28:01because there's a purpose behind it I'm

28:03just saying be aware don't just act in

28:07this world be aware have a strategic

28:09mindset sometimes concealing is what you

28:12need to do sometimes not concealing is

28:14what you need to do it's funny when we

28:16have this conversation about power and

28:18the Darkness and the Shadows that people

28:20have in them I think a lot of people

28:23listening

28:24and probably it seems that way because

28:27I'm the one asking the questions is if

28:29I'm questioning society that I'm not

28:30part of

28:32um they'll think they don't they might

28:33think they don't play these games right

28:35they might you know so that's the

28:36question I have is like have you ever

28:38encountered anybody do you believe

28:39there's anybody out there that doesn't

28:41play power games manipulation have

28:43shadows have darkness in them no I don't

28:46but um so in my War Book uh I I read the

28:51biography of Mahatma Gandhi

28:53well the Saint Louis figures in history

28:56right

28:57and I realized that Mahatma Gandhi was

29:01actually a brilliant strategist now I'm

29:03not saying his use of non-violence and

29:05Civil Disobedience didn't come from the

29:08heart he didn't mean it he wasn't

29:09actually he didn't actually believe in

29:12the peaceful method he did it was very

29:14sincere but he was very strategic about

29:17it and he planned a campaign several

29:21campaigns like the Salt March in the 20s

29:23where he knew for instance that the

29:26English public was very liberal-minded

29:29they had this idea of themselves as

29:31being this very they weren't

29:33colonialists they weren't imperialists

29:35they were doing the best for the world

29:36and he deliberately had these marches

29:39where he knew that that on they would be

29:42reading in their newspaper and seeing

29:44photographs of Indian people being

29:46beaten up by Englishmen and and their

29:50Indian officers on the streets of

29:52wherever

29:54it would have a terrible impact on the

29:56public he thought in terms of strategy

30:00okay so there's Gandhi then there's

30:01Martin Luther King who's somebody I

30:03wrote about a lot in the laws of human

30:05nature another great icon whom I admire

30:08who actually was inspired by Gandhi and

30:10had campaigns of Civil Disobedience and

30:13there was a campaign I believe it was in

30:15Montgomery or Selma Camp which remember

30:17which one

30:18where um he was getting fed up they

30:21weren't getting very far the Civil

30:23Rights moved they're reaching a stale

30:24mate and he was getting very frustrated

30:27and

30:28um somebody an advisor came to him said

30:31look we're going to have this massive

30:33March and and I I can get a lot of

30:36Elementary School and Junior High School

30:38students to be on this March because

30:40they believe in you and they're very

30:42fervent

30:43and I think it'd be great and his

30:45advisors go God you can't do that

30:48you can't have put 13 year olds at risk

30:51and Martin Luther King thought about

30:53Virgin he said no we're going to go

30:54ahead and do it

30:55because damn it I want the American

30:58public sitting in there all fat and

31:00watching their televisions to see these

31:03brutal you know Paul Connor the the

31:05police chief then

31:07I want to see these children being water

31:09hosed and beaten and it's going to have

31:12an incredible impact he was being

31:14strategic and his advisors were shocked

31:16by it but it ended up proving to be one

31:19of the most pivotal important moments in

31:20the Civil Rights Movement so here you

31:23have Gandhi and Martin Luther King I'm

31:25never and Martin Luther King was a

31:26flawed individual as we know right he

31:30had a private life that wasn't exactly

31:32in the same as his public life

31:34I don't judge him for that because he

31:36was a brilliant man and I admire him I

31:38love him deeply reading his biography

31:41made me even admire him even more seeing

31:43that he had a human flaw outside to him

31:46but these are icons that we set up and

31:49they reveal what I'm talking about in

31:50human nature

31:52you can't escape it but yeah maybe there

31:55was some Saint born in some Century that

31:57I've never heard of that maybe

31:59got pretty far away from everything I've

32:01talked about

32:03but you know you know we all have this

32:06idea like

32:07in the laws of human nature I write

32:09about irrationality Envy aggression we

32:11go or narcissism narcissism is a good

32:14one

32:15oh they're a narcissist I'm not a

32:18narcissist I'm not self-absorbed but

32:20they are yeah yeah I don't have any of

32:22those traits well damn it every single

32:25human being has self-absorption traits

32:28we can't help it we naturally think of

32:30ourselves first yes there are people who

32:32are much deeper narcissists in life no

32:35doubt and there are toxic narcissists

32:37but we all have a touch of it I want you

32:40to be a little more humble in this world

32:42and not be so arrogant and not think

32:44that you are somehow exempt from having

32:47a dark side that somehow you were born

32:49with a halo over your head that you were

32:53born different you don't have human

32:54nature that you're a saintly person

32:56you're much better get rid of your moral

32:59superiority because I find that deeply

33:00offensive we are all Cut From the Same

33:03Cloth we all have the same flaws and

33:06when you look at yourself and when I

33:08wrote the laws of human nature I'm going

33:09damn it Robert

33:11you have a dark side you're a narcissist

33:14you know I had to come to terms with my

33:17irrationality my grandiosity my

33:20aggressive instincts but it's the only

33:23way to change yourself is to be aware

33:25that you have these issues

33:27I have the narcissistic Tendencies now I

33:30see it all right now when they prop up

33:32pop up I can control it better I can say

33:35damn Robert you're being too

33:36self-absorbed you think more about the

33:38other person but if you go around in

33:40life thinking I don't have any of these

33:42problems I'm not a narcissist you're

33:44never going to have the awareness to

33:45stop the fact that you are actually one

33:49being a narcissist is that objectively a

33:52good or a bad thing because when you

33:54when you was obviously I know people are

33:56having a bad thing it's a narcissist

33:57cause a lot of harm and that's very true

33:59but in the context of the human animal

34:01and why the human animal develops

34:03certain attributes and qualities to to

34:05you know maybe further it survival or

34:07its ability to stay within the social

34:09pact is it just a consequence of being a

34:13human to have these like Shadow traits

34:15and to be coercive and manipulative is

34:18it good or is it bad

34:20or is it neither it's neither neither

34:24um

34:24because it just is right

34:28um so with narcissism for instance

34:32um there's a reason why we're

34:34narcissists so I explained in the book

34:37it's not my own Theory it comes from

34:39some great psychologists like kahoot the

34:42origins of narcissism right so when

34:45you're

34:46have to leave you when your parents have

34:48to kind of not abandon you but have to

34:50not give you as much attention as you

34:52used to have and you're three years old

34:54or four years old

34:56you don't remember it but it was very

34:58painful

34:59like oh they don't love me as much

35:01what's wrong with me right you know I

35:05have to get that love and attention not

35:07just naturally I have to do things to

35:09earn it etc

35:10etc and what happens with a lot of

35:13people in that situation when you're a

35:14child is

35:16I have to develop my own I have to be my

35:19own mother or father I have to find a

35:21way of loving myself

35:23when something bad happens I have to

35:26retreat Inward and go I'm really not so

35:28bad at all I'm actually a decent person

35:31I like my own tastes I like the clothes

35:34that I wear etc etc you're developing

35:37the shreds of self-esteem right and

35:41people who never develop that because

35:43they were abused or they were abandoned

35:46or even if they were suffocated

35:49never developed that self-esteem and so

35:52what happens in life is whenever if you

35:55don't develop that and you get older

35:57and people attack you and yell at you or

36:00criticize you you can't Retreat inward

36:04to that self-esteem that love you have

36:06the only thing you know is to get angry

36:08to get the call it narcissistic rage and

36:11to yell at people and say God get away

36:12from me you're evil etc etc etc right

36:16and then the other problems evolve where

36:18the only way I don't have that inner

36:20self-esteem the only way I get people to

36:22love me is by being incredibly dramatic

36:24and overly dramatic Etc et cetera et

36:27cetera and always making myself the

36:29center of attention that's what creates

36:32a deep narcissist that's their only way

36:34of getting the love that they need so

36:37children we all need that degree of

36:40self-esteem that anchor in our life so

36:43narcissism self-love is not a bad thing

36:47but what happens is as you get older if

36:50you go too deep into it it becomes a

36:53problem and so what I say is you need to

36:55take that self-love and it's it has a

36:59good function and turn it outward slow

37:01as much you can and turn into empathy

37:03and love and consideration for other

37:06people more that's your task as you get

37:08older in life that's how I approach all

37:10of these flaws you can't run away from

37:13them you can't run away from your Shadow

37:15your dark side you can make it work for

37:17you can make it positive and productive

37:19and healthy you can become a healthy

37:22narcissist which is a a name that I use

37:25in the book

37:27you can use your dark side for positive

37:30purposes

37:31let's say you have a lot of anger in

37:33your inside and I had a lot of anger

37:35when I was younger I was a very angry

37:37young man right

37:39channel that into some kind of cause

37:43like and you know that I have a lot of

37:45causes that I believe in very deeply and

37:48when I was younger I was like that

37:49channel that energy into something

37:51productive and helpful and put it into

37:54something that goes to something that

37:56helps Society that's using your dark

37:59side for positive purposes because the

38:02Dark Side Of Human Nature has a lot of

38:04creativity has a lot of energy an artist

38:07has to have a dark side you use your

38:10dark side because all those dark

38:12emotions all the people that shat on you

38:14in your life they inspire you they

38:16create your best work don't run away

38:18from your Shadow don't run away from

38:20your narcissism use it in a healthy way

38:24and acknowledge it I think that's the

38:26hardest thing for people to do right

38:27yeah

38:28so few people I think including myself

38:30like have really fully understood what

38:33their their shadow in their dark side is

38:35I mean doing this podcast has really

38:36helped me because I learn things from

38:38other people vicariously and then I look

38:39at reflect on myself or keeping a diary

38:41has helped me to understand that but

38:43that first step in someone having the

38:45self-awareness to understand their dark

38:46side I mean there's even a lot of people

38:48who confronting their Dark Side would be

38:51so it feels like it would be so

38:53impactful on their self-esteem in a

38:55negative sense that they spend their

38:56life

38:57putting up a wall to never go there I

38:59mean there's some people who you even

39:01mention something to them and they would

39:03triggers triggers them yeah you know we

39:06can all think of those people

39:08um

39:09we can all think of those people that

39:11the really interesting thing there is

39:12the role that your early years play on

39:14your relationship with power

39:15because when I think about some of the

39:18nicest I don't know if this is just a

39:19general a stereotype or a narrow

39:22observation I've had but some of the

39:24nicest people I've met in terms of you

39:27know being the opposite of whatever and

39:29toxic narcissist is seem to have really

39:33comfortable loving secure safe early

39:38experiences and then is that is that

39:42broadly true in your view

39:44it's a generalization but there is is

39:47some truth to it I mean there's things

39:49that called attachment theories where uh

39:52psychologists have looked at the kind of

39:54attachment you had to your parents and

39:56they categorized it in four different

39:58ways and there's the ideal the best one

40:01where you have this

40:02incredibly loving mother and father and

40:05they they're they're giving you

40:07unconditional love but they know also

40:09how to give you your Independence Etc

40:12it's not terribly common I don't know

40:14what the percentage would be then

40:16there's levels and levels and then as

40:17you get to the fourth level it's like

40:19the abandonment one where or abusive and

40:23abandonment where you basically leave

40:25the child alone you don't give it any

40:26attention any love and it's very

40:28crippling right but the thing is

40:32children are much stronger than we think

40:36they are they're very resilient they're

40:39very resourceful

40:40they're gonna find their love they're

40:42going to find a way to compensate for it

40:44in some way and what's something very

40:47interesting when I was doing seduction

40:49in some of my other books and I look at

40:52people who were like very charismatic

40:54like a Malcolm X like a Marilyn Monroe I

40:59could go on and on and on these are

41:01people that came from very very bad

41:04families right

41:06they had no love Marilyn Monroe was a

41:09was an orphan essentially raised in an

41:11orphanage you know her whole life was I

41:15gotta get people to love me I need love

41:17so desperately and her way of doing it

41:20was to literally make love with the

41:22camera nobody ever done that before you

41:25could sense that she needed it and it

41:27was so powerful that you sensed it that

41:29she drew it to herself

41:32great charismatic individuals John F

41:34Kennedy is someone who had a lot of

41:36Charisma he came from a very bad

41:38childhood right his father was very mean

41:41to him Etc some children in the worst

41:45circumstances it ends up bringing the

41:46best out of them they have to find their

41:48way in life and some people who have

41:50everything

41:52don't go very far because they don't

41:54know how to find things for themselves

41:56so life is weird some people who have

41:59great childhoods do well some people

42:01have great childhoods are spoiled and

42:03never learn how to get things on their

42:05own and some people have the shittiest

42:06childhoods learn how to be resourceful

42:09and and and and and get what they need

42:11on their own

42:13you mentioned seduction there The Art of

42:16Seduction why did you write a book about

42:18the topic of Seduction

42:21seduction is in a high form of power

42:24because you make people feel pleasure

42:28you make them feel excited or interested

42:31in you and then their their resistance

42:34to your ideas slowly lowers and you have

42:37the ability to influence them and to

42:39move them in the direction that you want

42:40if you yell at them like how we talk

42:42about your child and you tell them do

42:44this do that they resent it and for good

42:46reason

42:47but if you're subtler if you're more

42:50seductive in your approach if you're

42:52more indirect

42:53people will do what you want or go in

42:56your direction without ever even

42:57realizing it so it was a sub theme in

43:00the 48 Laws of Power and so I was sort

43:03of interested in the psychology of that

43:04and why some people are good at it and

43:06some people are awkward about it so when

43:08I finish the 48 Laws of Power I thought

43:10this would be

43:12a natural segue the next book what are

43:15the qualities of a great Seducer

43:21well I like to distinguish between cold

43:23seducers and warm seducers a cold

43:26Seducer is something you don't want to

43:28be that's the typical image that we

43:30might have of a male Seducer but even of

43:33a female Seducer like the great courtesy

43:35set up or they're just after money or

43:37the men are just after sex

43:39that's not my ideal my ideal

43:43is kind of a back and forth quality

43:46where it's not domination it's sort of

43:49like a game that you're playing it's

43:51like a mating game it's like a courtship

43:53ritual where both part people are kind

43:55of seducing each other and so what makes

43:58for a great Seducer is very simple I can

44:01summarize it very simply you are outer

44:04directed

44:05so when you meet somebody

44:08for the first time or you're on a date

44:10or whatever it is

44:12you're not having that internal

44:13monologue going does she like me or does

44:16he like me am I dressed well am I saying

44:19stupid things what can I do to impress

44:21them no you turn it off and you're out

44:24or directed and you're listening to them

44:26and you're entering their spirit and

44:29you're hearing them say things that that

44:32give you idea of what they're missing in

44:34life of what they want of what their

44:36needs are of what makes them an

44:38individual

44:39you're absorbing it you're entering into

44:41their spirit and then you can reflect it

44:43back to them you can give them gifts you

44:46can take them to places that show that

44:48you're attentive to them

44:50because if you look at how we are in our

44:52day-to-day life

44:54normally people never pay us attention

44:57they're always so self-absorbed they're

44:59never thinking about us

45:01I mean the times where you get the sense

45:03that people are actually interested in

45:06who you are as an individual is pretty

45:08rare

45:09if you give that feeling to someone it's

45:12incredibly powerful because we all want

45:14to be validated we all want to be

45:15recognized

45:17so what the Seducer is not someone who's

45:20all worried about him or herself and

45:22thinking they're involved in the other

45:24person they're absorbed like a sponge

45:26inside their psychology inside their

45:29world

45:30a lot of this is you know very

45:32applicable to romance and dating

45:35etc etc it fails for whatever reason I

45:37you know not necessarily something I've

45:39read much about in your work but it

45:40feels like dating and romance and

45:44relationships have become

45:46much more complicated in the modern

45:47world that it's become much more

45:49difficult to seduce somebody

45:53um what is the what are the attributes

45:55of someone then that is not good at

45:57seducing

45:59anti-seducer has many qualities I have a

46:02whole chapter on the anti-seducer I try

46:04and Define it

46:05uh there there are several of them I

46:07can't I don't have them all memorized

46:08but one quality that's very

46:10anti-seductive is preaching and

46:13moralizing

46:14is like telling people oh that's wrong

46:17what you just said or your politics are

46:20ugly or you're not a really you're not

46:21really good at this or something or

46:23other

46:24having a moral superiority a sense of

46:26sanctimonious sanctimony in a realm

46:29which should be about pleasure where

46:31should be that kind of equality that

46:33kind of dinette back and forth Dynamic

46:35where you're asserting your moral

46:37superiority is deeply deeply

46:39anti-seductive the element of preaching

46:41to people

46:42not being generous

46:45and I mean not just with money money is

46:48important

46:49but not being generous with your spirit

46:51right

46:52you want to be open you want to give as

46:55much as you can to the other person of

46:57yourself of your time of your money of

47:00your energy Etc

47:02so being all kind of crimped and I don't

47:04want to give I don't want to spend money

47:07I want to take you to the cheap place to

47:09eat I don't want to give you much time

47:11is very very anti-seductive when you're

47:15talking a second ago about the person

47:17who goes on the day and they're thinking

47:18about themselves and what they you know

47:20what their hair looks like or whatever

47:22else

47:23that spoke to an insecure person

47:27is insecurity a seductive quality or is

47:31it a

47:32anti-seductive quality it is

47:34anti-seductive now there is a part of

47:37weakness that is seductive

47:40so I would say vulnerability is

47:43seductive but insecurity is

47:45anti-seductive and there's a big

47:46difference why does vulnerability draw

47:48people to you

47:49because

47:51the sense so if I can Define seduction

47:54in in in simple terms

47:58um most of the time we are closed to the

48:01influence of other people particularly

48:03now we have these walls up because life

48:07is Harsh people are coming at us with

48:09their advertisements with their pleas

48:11with their wanting money with this than

48:12the other and we've all learned to be

48:14very defensive right and seduction is an

48:18openness is the opposite of that and you

48:21felt it when you were a child towards

48:23your parents you felt very vulnerable

48:25and open and and there was an element of

48:28your parents and how they treated you

48:29that was very much like a seduction

48:31right so seduction is about being open

48:34to the other person to the extent where

48:36you can even fall in love you can fall

48:38under their spell and the sense of

48:40letting go of your ego letting go of

48:43your defensiveness and letting other

48:45another person enter your world is being

48:49seduced it requires vulnerability if you

48:53meet the typical

48:54um scenarios of a man

48:57who's not vulnerable at all he's so

49:00powerful and in control and everything

49:02has no vulnerabilities it's frightening

49:05you know for a woman it could be very

49:08frightening like this he's he's so

49:11strong he's so invulnerable that there's

49:13something wrong about it you know maybe

49:15he's a serial killer maybe he's got

49:17skeletons in his closet something isn't

49:19right about that what what seduces you

49:22about a puppy about a child about an

49:25animal is their vulnerability it makes

49:28you want to hug them it makes you want

49:29to help them right the sense which If

49:32You Came Upon A a tiger that's there and

49:35that they don't need that well that's

49:36not seductive I mean on your screen it

49:39is but if they're there in your living

49:40room that's not seductive but that puppy

49:43is Right vulnerability the sense that

49:47somebody needs protection or help brings

49:50out qualities in us that we don't

49:52normally have that I think allow for

49:55seduction so that is being vulnerable

49:57that is

49:59I can be influenced by that other person

50:02I am open to the to their Spirit right

50:06that's being vulnerable the word

50:09vulnerable I hate to sound like a

50:11professor so excuse me in seduction it

50:13comes from the wrong the root of it

50:15means a wound vuleness so you have a

50:19wound inside of you and you need healing

50:21and the other person naturally wants to

50:23help you right but being insecure is the

50:27off means

50:28I'm so self-absorbed I'm so worried

50:31about myself

50:32that I can't get out of it and we've all

50:35had that experience when you meet

50:38somebody and they and you can sense you

50:40can smell their insecurity in them I'm

50:42not judging them because we all have

50:43insecurities

50:44it makes you feel insecure it makes you

50:47feel a little bit awkward whereas if you

50:50meet someone who's not like that who's

50:51confident Etc it brings out that quality

50:54in you so if you're on a date and

50:56there's someone who's you smell that

50:58kind of insecurity it makes you awkward

51:01and insecure it creates a kind of a

51:02problem so that would be the difference

51:04between the two

51:06there's going to be a lot of people

51:07listening to this that are single

51:10and ready to mingle

51:13um what advice would you give them in

51:15terms of being great at dating you've

51:18talked about the importance of

51:19vulnerability there and how that kind of

51:20forms connection between humans in a

51:22very innate way what else is great

51:25dating advice for this for the single

51:26people out there well

51:29the thing is okay there are several

51:31things so first of all we live in a

51:34culture where people think you don't you

51:37shouldn't have to put effort into

51:38something like love and romance you

51:41should just be who you are man I don't

51:43have to put on a rule I have to play a

51:45game that's manipulative

51:47no I'm sorry

51:50love and romance is something that is

51:52almost biological

51:54if you look at animals and mating

51:56rituals they're incredibly elaborate

51:58seduction is a mating ritual and so the

52:02worst thing you can feel is that this

52:05person isn't putting any effort into

52:07something

52:08let's just say it's it's uh it's from

52:11the woman's point of view this man

52:13he just shows up wearing jeans and his

52:15usual sloppy outfit he doesn't come's

52:18hair

52:19etc etc etc

52:20he takes me to the pub for dinner on our

52:23first date

52:24you know he's not thinking about me he's

52:27not willing to put any effort into it if

52:30he's not willing to put any effort into

52:31it

52:32what's it going to be like three months

52:34down the line when he completely takes

52:36me for granted which is what happens in

52:38a relationship am I not important enough

52:40right whereas the ability to have a

52:44little bit of effort to think of it as

52:47kind of theater and drama and that

52:49there's nothing evil about it so

52:51I'm going to dress nicely I'm gonna I

52:54just have to be fancy just that I'm

52:56gonna you know I'm gonna put some effort

52:58into how I look I'm going to take her to

53:01a place that isn't is you know I'm not

53:04talking about candlelights and roses and

53:06that kind of crap doesn't that you can

53:09be creative it can be somewhere that

53:11that's scuzzy that's on the wrong side

53:12of town but it's different and it's

53:15appealing to and you put some thought

53:16into it there's a reason you're taking

53:18her there right I have a friend who went

53:22on a date and she came back from the

53:24date and was complaining because the

53:28person that she date went on that first

53:30date with

53:31was using a took it to a spot where he

53:34had an available valid discount code

53:38and and talk about anti-seduction there

53:41you go why is that anti-seductive in

53:44that case one might say that male is

53:46being you know economically Savvy

53:49financially savvy

53:51that you know if you're not able to let

53:54go of your of your kind of tightness

53:57when it comes to a woman something's

54:00wrong with you man just let go spend

54:02some extra money spend the extra 10 quid

54:05that you might need to spend on taking

54:06you to someplace different but it

54:09signals a kind of cheapness and it's not

54:11about money it's about a cheapness in

54:13your spirit

54:14right she's not worth

54:17you know letting go okay maybe you don't

54:20have that much but my God you have

54:23enough it's not gonna like if you're

54:24that poor then then you know okay maybe

54:27but probably not you could afford it

54:29show that you that it means something to

54:32you

54:34let seduction is a language it's not a

54:37language of words it's a language of

54:39gestures that we're paying attention to

54:42we're paying attention to people's body

54:44language we're paying attention to their

54:46actions to the things that they never

54:48say

54:49so when you signal that

54:53discounts are so important to you that

54:55even on the first date you have to have

54:57a discount

54:58you're signaling that it's not there's

55:00something tight about you in your nature

55:02and it's not very pleasant I from doing

55:05this podcast and speaking about topics

55:07like love and sex and dating and you

55:09know dating apps even one of the um

55:12comments I saw quite frequently was from

55:16young men who are struggling to seduce a

55:21woman yeah or vice versa

55:24um specifically young men that you know

55:27and then I read some stats I think Scott

55:28Galloway came on the podcast and talked

55:30about how

55:31I'm gonna butcher these numbers but a

55:33staggering amount of men haven't had sex

55:35and the young men haven't had sex in the

55:37last 12 months

55:38um and then when I looked at the

55:40comments section specifically on YouTube

55:42I saw I kind of saw that energy

55:44reflected where it looked like young men

55:46in particular were struggling to seduce

55:49a mate a partner in the modern world

55:53is is that real in your view is there is

55:57there something that has changed in

55:59society has that always been the case

56:01um is there anything we can do if we're

56:03a young man that's struggling in the

56:05modern world because of the internet and

56:06computers and this and dating apps and

56:09well a lot of it is I'm afraid to say is

56:12internet porn

56:14where you get the idea that you know sex

56:17is something that should be very easy

56:19and quick and that women should have

56:21look how that kind of body and physique

56:24etc etc and that becomes your Norm

56:27Etc that can be that can be very

56:29damaging but the idea that things must

56:32come easy and quick is is very prevalent

56:35and to win over someone like oh say

56:39you're a man it's a woman who might be

56:41reluctant to have sex for good reason or

56:44reluctant to have a relationship

56:46requires some effort it requires some

56:49thinking you can't just hack well you

56:51can't just swipe and get it you can you

56:54can have your internet sex but you're

56:56not going to get that in real life it

56:57doesn't work that way it takes time it

57:00takes patience you know and you're gonna

57:02have to work and you're going to be

57:04rejected

57:05being with people is a skill being a

57:08social animal although there's a part

57:11that comes naturally if you spend all of

57:13your time here you're losing that skill

57:15of how to respond to people's body

57:17language you know half of the thing is

57:20you're sitting in a bar opposite let's

57:23say it's a woman

57:25and how she crosses her legs how she

57:28sips her drink how she looks at you how

57:31she touches her hair she's signaling

57:34things it's a language it's a beautiful

57:36language right you have to learn it and

57:39you're not going to learn it here

57:40because you can't you have to be in

57:42person it has to be skinned skin you

57:45have to get a feel of what other people

57:46are thinking and feeling and we're

57:49actually really really good at that

57:50humans have that's what makes us human

57:53it's called mirror neurons I can sense

57:56what's going on in your mind I can read

57:58your body language

58:00you have to get out in the world and you

58:02have to be put yourself physically out

58:03there and try and try and try and have

58:07rejection

58:08and I know it sounds awful but it is a

58:11skill in a way where you're learning how

58:14to like understand and deal with people

58:16and and and understand that what they're

58:19who they are and get inside their Spirit

58:21it takes time and effort and patience so

58:24for young men you have to realize that

58:27right you if you think everything has to

58:30be easy and quick it's never going to

58:32work for you and I talk about the actor

58:35the Hollywood actor Errol Flynn

58:37who is perhaps

58:40numerically the greatest male Seducer

58:42ever because estimated that he had

58:45seduced close to 3 000 women and he died

58:48when he was 50 and if I I did the math

58:51one day what how can that possibly be

58:54um

58:55and I tried to research what was his

58:58secret and it was hard to find out

59:00finally I found a book written by a

59:02woman whom he had seduced another

59:03actress and she said

59:06he was so relaxed and so comfortable it

59:10was like being it was like an animal

59:12type thing and then what I would sit

59:13with him it was almost as if I had drunk

59:16two martinis just sitting next to him

59:18his comfort and his security and his

59:21confidence his relaxed attitude it just

59:24made me drunk

59:25so feeling relaxed feeling confident and

59:30not defensive and comfortable with

59:32yourself is a very powerful seductive

59:35quality I mean there are many of them

59:37but that's one that I would point out

59:38have you ever figured out what builds

59:40confidence you earlier on you were

59:42talking about how children need to

59:44experience things first hand you can't

59:47just tell them you can't just tell

59:48someone for example to be confident

59:50preaching doesn't seem to work what what

59:52is it in your view that that does build

59:54that true or you also can't fake

59:57confidence no I remember we talked about

1:00:00rejection a second ago I was rejected by

1:00:02pretty much every girl that I was

1:00:04pursuing between the ages of of 16 and

1:00:08I'd say 22. really yeah like and I do

1:00:12you know what it was I I was faking

1:00:13confidence it all changed when I was

1:00:16actually had a sense of security in

1:00:18myself but in the period where I was

1:00:20like faking confidence I was pretending

1:00:22I was confident

1:00:24um it was like they could they just

1:00:26could read past it that's almost how I

1:00:28look back on the situation so I came to

1:00:30learn that you can't fake confidence you

1:00:32can't pretend to be it because there's

1:00:33so many sort of micro Expressions that

1:00:36yeah that you that look that end up

1:00:38reading more like insecurity than

1:00:40confidence

1:00:40um but what is real confidence and how

1:00:43does one build it in your view well

1:00:44you've kind of answered your own

1:00:45question there in a way so um you know

1:00:49conf fake conferences like bravado right

1:00:52and you're putting on an act

1:00:54and particularly women who've had to

1:00:56deal with this for you know Millennia

1:00:59they can smell it they can sense it they

1:01:02don't have to it doesn't have it's not

1:01:03in your words it's the body language etc

1:01:05etc

1:01:07real confidence comes from actual

1:01:10um actions from your actual things

1:01:12you've accomplished right so you know

1:01:16when you're 22 21 it's hard to have that

1:01:19confidence because what is it based on

1:01:21you know maybe it's based

1:01:23okay maybe you're you're really good

1:01:25looking if you happen to have that good

1:01:27fortune and you can feel confident about

1:01:29that and you don't have to try so hard

1:01:32all right maybe that might work or maybe

1:01:34you're really good at sports or maybe

1:01:37you're a really good dancer or you're a

1:01:40really great singer but it's based on

1:01:42something real you have a skill you have

1:01:45something that separates you you have

1:01:46something that you can do that you can

1:01:48accomplish because when you're 21 it's

1:01:50hard to have those you know I look back

1:01:52on myself when I was that age I had

1:01:54nothing no wonder I got rejected you

1:01:57know

1:01:58um

1:01:59so it comes from what you do in life

1:02:03okay the the finest sense of confidence

1:02:05is actually creating things and having

1:02:08success and meeting goals and achieving

1:02:11things and having a record of that you

1:02:15know and maybe what goes with that is

1:02:16having some money but it's not

1:02:18necessarily because you don't have to

1:02:20have a lot of money and you don't have

1:02:21to be good looking to seduce that's a

1:02:24myth that I try to explode in The Art of

1:02:26Seduction some of the greatest seducers

1:02:29male and female were not good looking at

1:02:31all it's about psychology and it's about

1:02:33how you carry yourself

1:02:35but the confidence comes from actually

1:02:38what you can do not how you feel or what

1:02:41you say well it is how you feel but the

1:02:44feeling is based on things that you

1:02:45actually can do skills that you have

1:02:48that separate you that make you feel

1:02:50really confident you know

1:02:53so body language

1:02:55yeah I find it fascinating that you know

1:02:58there's quotes and things that say 80 of

1:03:01our communication is non-verbal etc etc

1:03:04um body language is so interesting to me

1:03:06because again I think that's one of the

1:03:07things that it's just impossibly hard to

1:03:09fake I was reading you know a couple of

1:03:11books on there was a phase when I was I

1:03:14don't know 20 probably just after being

1:03:15rejected all the time when I was maybe

1:03:1622 where I started reading books from

1:03:18pickup artists and they would obsess on

1:03:22the topic of body language and one of

1:03:24the things they'd say is and I I was

1:03:26explaining this to my girlfriend a

1:03:27couple of weeks ago that when when a man

1:03:30is lower confidence when he's desperate

1:03:32he does this thing called pecking in a

1:03:34nightclub where he'll like lean in and

1:03:35like shout in your ear and when he's

1:03:37higher confidence he kind of leans out

1:03:39and he'll he'll wait for you to lean in

1:03:41small things like that subtleties like

1:03:44that that intuitively we we're reading

1:03:46and understanding and communicating and

1:03:49Etc but someone that doesn't have the

1:03:51confidence probably isn't even aware

1:03:52that they do so when I reflect on my

1:03:54rejection phase I think gosh my body

1:03:57language must have been exuding

1:03:59desperation and low status and low value

1:04:01low self-esteem

1:04:03what's your thoughts on body language

1:04:04and

1:04:06well um in my last book human nature I

1:04:08wrote a whole chapter on it

1:04:10I quoted the figure 95 but who knows

1:04:13what it really is

1:04:15the thing it is that um we evolved for

1:04:19hundreds of thousands of years before

1:04:20language existed right and our earliest

1:04:23ancestors depended on the group for

1:04:26their survival and getting along and

1:04:28their powers came from observing other

1:04:30people and their body language you could

1:04:32read it so it's a skill that's wired

1:04:34into US wired into our brains it's very

1:04:37unique skill that we humans have it's

1:04:40just that you don't learn that when

1:04:42you're a child when you're two years old

1:04:44you have it because your life depends on

1:04:46it

1:04:47you you have to see what if your mother

1:04:50is is loving you or is or your father is

1:04:52kind to you because if not you know you

1:04:54could be abandoned your life depends on

1:04:56it you're great at reading that and

1:04:58children have are incredibly Adept at

1:05:00picking up body language so if someone

1:05:03is fake

1:05:04if someone's an imposter they hate being

1:05:07around children because children see

1:05:08through you you know like you know like

1:05:10radar right because they're so attuned

1:05:13to it you had that skill when you were

1:05:15very young but you lost it because you

1:05:18became so oriented with words and you

1:05:20became so self-absorbed that you're not

1:05:22paying attention

1:05:24but it's extremely important right so

1:05:28the whole body is involved in it so

1:05:31you've got to first stop thinking about

1:05:34people's words so much because the one

1:05:37thing about words unfortunately is

1:05:38people can lie they can say whatever

1:05:40they want they can say I love your

1:05:43screenplay that was fantastic you were

1:05:45great in that movie I thought you were

1:05:47great senator they can say anything to

1:05:49please to flatter to control you but

1:05:52body language man it doesn't lie right

1:05:54so I talk in that book about the eyes

1:05:57and the fake smile the fake smile is

1:06:01something you see every single day but

1:06:02you're not paying attention it's like

1:06:06it's kind of tight right it's like

1:06:09yeah right but a real smile

1:06:12you're the whole face gets animated and

1:06:15there's a little crinkly thing here as

1:06:17your face as you as it lights up and

1:06:19your eyes light up it's it's hard to

1:06:22even put into words but it's there you

1:06:23can see it it's real it's not faked

1:06:27knowing the difference between a fake

1:06:28and a real smile is really important in

1:06:31seduction in business or whatever to

1:06:33know if someone is like yeah

1:06:35I like that idea you know they don't

1:06:38really they're saying that to please you

1:06:39they actually hate your idea you master

1:06:42that language you can start deciphering

1:06:44all this people are giving you

1:06:46the face you can disguise it a little

1:06:49bit actors know that but you know what

1:06:51you can't fake it's your voice

1:06:55if you're nervous

1:06:56not even the finest actors in the world

1:06:59can fake that your voice betrays so many

1:07:02things about you it betrays your

1:07:04weakness it betrays your lack of

1:07:06confidence or it portrays the other

1:07:08quality Etc right so pay really

1:07:12attention to the tone of people's voices

1:07:14to how fast they talk people who talk

1:07:16fast are very nervous someone who's

1:07:19talked I know I'm probably talking a

1:07:21little too fast too sorry uh my mind

1:07:24races so I can't do that normally I

1:07:26don't talk so fast but um

1:07:29you know you talk slowly you have a

1:07:31certain tone you have a certain

1:07:32intonation that kind of reveals

1:07:34confidence okay

1:07:36body language posture you were talking

1:07:39about pecking right when you go and look

1:07:42at a meeting of people in in a business

1:07:44meeting

1:07:45you'll see all the employees kind of

1:07:48leaning forward nervous and you'll see

1:07:51the boss kind of leaning back arms for

1:07:53us like this you know I'm the powerful

1:07:55one you come to me I'm the leader I'm

1:07:58the I'm the top dog or she it's a woman

1:08:00I don't need to be like this I'm like

1:08:04this body language reveals a lot about

1:08:06leadership qualities

1:08:08etc etc etc

1:08:10you know if you go you're at a party

1:08:14and you come up to someone that you're

1:08:16meeting for the first time and they're

1:08:18talking to you and you notice that their

1:08:21feet are angling away from you

1:08:24that means that they're not really

1:08:25interest they're looking for any moment

1:08:27to try and walk away and Escape they're

1:08:29not really into you whereas their feet

1:08:31are facing you they're engaged they want

1:08:33to talk to you right

1:08:35this is a whole art you can learn and

1:08:37you can sit there and you can read it

1:08:38and I talk about I give the story in

1:08:41laws of human nature of a man named

1:08:43Milton Erickson the founder of NLP and

1:08:47hypnotherapy probably one of the most

1:08:49brilliant psychologists who ever lived

1:08:50when Milton Erickson was 19 years old or

1:08:53so he had polio

1:08:55he nearly died his entire body was

1:08:58paralyzed the only thing he can move the

1:09:01only muscle he could move with his

1:09:02eyeballs now imagine that he was a young

1:09:05man with a very active mind he can't

1:09:07talk he can't do anything all they can

1:09:09do is move his eyeballs a little bit

1:09:12he was so bored can you imagine how

1:09:14bored you'd be like that you can't read

1:09:15you can't do anything people would come

1:09:18in to visit him all they could do was

1:09:20look at them and study them he became

1:09:23the greatest reader of body language

1:09:26ever in the history of mankind people

1:09:28said it was he was almost had ESP he

1:09:31could read everything about who they

1:09:33were just by because he ended up

1:09:35recovering he became a psychologist

1:09:37because his life depended on developing

1:09:40this skill he was going to just die from

1:09:42sheer boredom if he didn't learn how to

1:09:44read body language he mastered that

1:09:46language much like somebody could Master

1:09:48French and it's an incredibly powerful

1:09:51language that I I can't emphasize enough

1:09:55you know we can go about learning the

1:09:57language of body language and I'm sure

1:09:59that will help but

1:10:00it's such a complex

1:10:05um like VAR there's like a thousand

1:10:07things with my body language at all

1:10:08times like how I'm speaking my eyeballs

1:10:11why where I'm looking my posture my arms

1:10:13like am I crossing my arms am I crossing

1:10:14my legs all of these things so the the

1:10:17challenge of mastering all of that feels

1:10:19a little bit overwhelming am I right in

1:10:22assuming the easiest

1:10:24the easier challenge to master is in

1:10:26fact just like my sense of self

1:10:28very well put because you know if you

1:10:31feel confident if you feel secure if

1:10:34you're not

1:10:35all Inward and insecure and worried

1:10:37about yourself it will naturally radiate

1:10:40through your gestures yeah you don't

1:10:42have to sit there and pay attention to

1:10:43your fingers your arm your ears your

1:10:46eyes it's just there it's natural so

1:10:48yeah that is the solution so the two

1:10:50game parts of the game it's your own

1:10:52body language be aware that people are

1:10:54judging you for that right and you can't

1:10:57as you say

1:10:58be monitoring everything or you'll drive

1:11:00yourself crazy and you'll look very

1:11:02weird right so the best solution is to

1:11:05feel these certain things that are going

1:11:07to radiate and to not give the fake

1:11:10smile but when you really happy to just

1:11:13show it and show your emotion that way

1:11:15and the other side

1:11:18which is more is I think really

1:11:20important is learning other people's

1:11:22body language and that can come from

1:11:24study and is much more a logical thing

1:11:27than than constantly thinking about

1:11:29everything that you do

1:11:32your next book

1:11:34that I have here mastery

1:11:37why did you write a book called mastery

1:11:40well to be honest with you it came the

1:11:42idea for it was around the year 2010

1:11:452009 I was getting a little worried that

1:11:48people who were reading my books

1:11:49particularly young men who were reading

1:11:51power and seduction they cut they were

1:11:53thinking that's all I need in life man I

1:11:55just need to be a manipulator I just

1:11:57need to play political games that's what

1:11:58success is all about

1:12:00and I was worried that you know

1:12:03if if you don't understand how to make

1:12:06something what's going to be the future

1:12:07of mankind are bridges just going to

1:12:10fall down our hotel is going to collapse

1:12:12people don't know how to make things

1:12:13anymore we don't know how to use our

1:12:15hands anymore right so

1:12:18being able to be good with people is

1:12:20extremely important as a social animal

1:12:22but perhaps higher up in the hierarchy

1:12:25is being able to do things to be able to

1:12:27have great skill and to be able to

1:12:30create something and know how to master

1:12:32a subject and to you know build

1:12:34something that can last that's really

1:12:38important and I'm feeling like because

1:12:40young people this is back in 2010

1:12:42imagine now

1:12:44had this idea that everything comes

1:12:46quick and easy because you can click

1:12:48click click and things come to you that

1:12:50everything in life should be that way

1:12:52that we're becoming alienated from the

1:12:55human brain how the human brain operates

1:12:57because the human brain requires time if

1:13:00you know how the human brain operates we

1:13:02have what are called neural Pathways and

1:13:05every time you repeat something a neural

1:13:07pathway is created and strengthened and

1:13:10strengthened and strengthened it's why

1:13:12we get addicted to things but it's also

1:13:14why we develop skill so if I'm sitting

1:13:18there shooting free throws day in and

1:13:19day out and day out my brain is wiring

1:13:21it it's learning it it's learning that

1:13:22motor skill that hand mind thing and

1:13:25it's getting better and better and

1:13:27better at it it takes time it takes

1:13:29repetition to build those Pathways and I

1:13:33explain in Mastery that you reach the

1:13:35proverbial ten thousand hours which some

1:13:37people dispute nowadays so it's just a

1:13:40number it's not it's not a fact

1:13:42you've spent so long learning something

1:13:46that there's so many Pathways it's like

1:13:48this amazing

1:13:50inner landscape with all these

1:13:52connections going on in your brain and

1:13:54now you can be creative now you can come

1:13:57up with things that nobody's ever

1:13:58thought of you can play chess on a

1:14:00higher level you can be Pele on soccer

1:14:03or Lionel Messi making passes that no

1:14:06one had ever seen before because you're

1:14:07not having to think right you don't have

1:14:10to think anymore your body just does

1:14:11does what it wants

1:14:13imagine twenty thousand hours which is

1:14:15possible just people sometimes detain in

1:14:17certain Fields you're almost like a

1:14:20genius you're almost like superhuman

1:14:21right

1:14:23if you're someone who's so locked into

1:14:25the internet to getting things instantly

1:14:27you can't get past hundred hours let

1:14:30alone ten thousand you're never going to

1:14:32develop skill and you're going to find

1:14:34life really really difficult for you so

1:14:37I wrote the book because I was actually

1:14:39deeply worried that we were losing a

1:14:41part of of how the human brain operates

1:14:44something Elemental part of our wisdom

1:14:48the interesting three line between that

1:14:50and the subject matter we've discussed

1:14:52in power and seduction is that by

1:14:55learning to master something you build

1:14:56that sense of self-esteem and confidence

1:14:58that we're looking for

1:15:00um to to be good at the former topics

1:15:02mentioned but

1:15:04on the topic of um Mastery the first

1:15:07chapter in this book and really the

1:15:08first question a lot of people ask is

1:15:10this question about finding your passion

1:15:11and I've always had a difficult

1:15:13relationship with this question because

1:15:14it sometimes assumes that there's one of

1:15:17them and that you have to go in search

1:15:18of it somewhere in the first chapter of

1:15:20your book you talk about discovering

1:15:21your life task

1:15:24um

1:15:25why why is it important is it the same

1:15:27thing is is finding your passion and

1:15:29finding your life task the same thing no

1:15:31I just recorded this yesterday uh on my

1:15:33own podcast I went on a rant about how

1:15:36it's not about passion it's not about

1:15:38finding your passion I actually don't

1:15:40like that word passion it kind of makes

1:15:41me cringe because if you think about it

1:15:45passion to succeed at anything requires

1:15:48time and effort and boredom and tedium

1:15:52so let's just say a simple example

1:15:54you're learning to play the piano when

1:15:56you first sit down at the piano you have

1:15:58to play these really insipid Tunes it's

1:16:00so boring you have to learn you know um

1:16:03I forget what they call it a finger

1:16:05exercises and scales on any instrument

1:16:07you have to learn scales Etc it's

1:16:10tedious man if you think it's got to be

1:16:13passion forget it you're never going to

1:16:15get far the thrill comes after a year of

1:16:18playing the piano and you get better at

1:16:20it and better and better and now it

1:16:22starts coming fun then 10 years it's

1:16:25more fun than 20 years it's fantastic

1:16:27you know

1:16:28I'm not I'm not trying to name drop here

1:16:31but the other night I had dinner with

1:16:33Stevie Wonder

1:16:34it was the most amazing thing I ever

1:16:36seen he's absolutely I wish I'd

1:16:38interviewed him from my book speaking of

1:16:40Genius you know and he's blind obviously

1:16:43everybody knows but I was watching him

1:16:46you perform for us we were they

1:16:48prevented his recording studio I was

1:16:51watching him play the piano and he's

1:16:53blind

1:16:54right and he's improvising and it's just

1:16:57absolutely brilliant and amazing as I'm

1:16:59seeing this I'm thinking I could see the

1:17:02thousands of hours he's been putting in

1:17:04just touching these keyboards and

1:17:06knowing where the where the where the

1:17:08keys are you know it was just mind mind

1:17:11blowing how amazing it was that is the

1:17:15power that the human brain naturally has

1:17:17through hours and hours and hours of

1:17:21effort that's how it works so you know

1:17:25he didn't get there because it was

1:17:27passion he got there because he was a

1:17:29child prodigy at an age of 11. he was

1:17:32assigned to a contract with Motown

1:17:34records right

1:17:35he was playing that as he was a kid hour

1:17:39after hour after hour after hour he had

1:17:41a love for the piano but it wasn't like

1:17:44every time he sat down it had to be

1:17:46passionate about it he had the patience

1:17:48to put up with all of the boring stuff

1:17:50okay so

1:17:53you want to discover what you were meant

1:17:55to what you have a connection to what

1:17:57you have a love for right when you're a

1:18:00child hopefully or when you're 18 or 19

1:18:03or 20 that's the best time to discover

1:18:05it all right

1:18:07you decide and it doesn't have to be

1:18:10something highfalutin or or worth uh you

1:18:13know like intellectual you could be

1:18:15great with your hands you could be great

1:18:17with your body you could be great with

1:18:19images and visuals you could be great

1:18:21with words you could be great in many

1:18:23different areas okay they're all equal

1:18:26they're all great you as a child are

1:18:29naturally so there's a book I always

1:18:31recommend for people called the five

1:18:33frames of Mind by Howard Gardner in

1:18:35which he talks about the five forms of

1:18:37intelligence that humans have

1:18:40the each brain by genetically is wired

1:18:44in One Direction or the other

1:18:46you want to know that you want to feel

1:18:48it inside of you

1:18:49it's like a feeling it's not an

1:18:51intellectual thing you feel when you're

1:18:53doing sports that it's it's good it's a

1:18:56natural thing it's what I'm meant for

1:18:57when you're involved with words like I

1:19:00was when I was eight years old you felt

1:19:03right it felt like a natural fit I have

1:19:05to follow this path when you're three or

1:19:08four years old and it's music like

1:19:10Stevie Wonder and you're hearing this in

1:19:11your head wow that's that's it for me

1:19:14right okay you feel it you feel this

1:19:18connection all right now you fast

1:19:20forward to when you're 18 or 19 years

1:19:22old and you're having to make a career

1:19:23choice

1:19:24okay so I call that your 20s the most

1:19:28important phase of your life that's

1:19:30going to make or break you in some way

1:19:33if you spend your 20s trying to learn

1:19:36skill in something that connects to you

1:19:39deeply

1:19:40right

1:19:42then things are going to happen to you

1:19:43by the time you reach 30. you've

1:19:46discovered your life's task it may not

1:19:48be something so specific for me

1:19:51it was writing words but I didn't know

1:19:54what to write I tried novels I tried

1:19:56journalism I tried theater I tried

1:19:58screenwriting but you know it it gives

1:20:01you a direction and you try and you try

1:20:03and try and you know that's what you

1:20:04were meant for that's what you were

1:20:05destined for you you feel connected to

1:20:08it you feel a love for it and so when it

1:20:10comes time to do the tedious stuff

1:20:13you're able to do it because you know in

1:20:16the end it'll pay rewards you'll get

1:20:18better and better at it and the

1:20:20connection is so deep that to not do it

1:20:23would be miserable so

1:20:26you can't think of everything in life

1:20:28having to be pleasurable and having to

1:20:29be passionate it's going to be boredom

1:20:32there's going to be tedium how do I deal

1:20:34with it you have to feel a greater love

1:20:36than just mere pleasure or passion it's

1:20:40got to be something so deep within you

1:20:41that to not do it will make you deeply

1:20:44and happy for me not to write or be a

1:20:47writer I don't think I'd be alive right

1:20:49now I would have been so miserable I

1:20:50would and so alienated from who I am so

1:20:52that's what will get you through that's

1:20:54that's what a life's task is when you

1:20:56think about that in the book you talk

1:20:58about the first phase which is you know

1:20:59your apprenticeship on your journey to

1:21:02mastery when you're in that

1:21:04apprenticeship phase

1:21:06you know when you're maybe early in your

1:21:07career you're early on your journey to

1:21:09becoming The Pianist the violinist the

1:21:11podcast the entrepreneur whatever

1:21:13what are the the most important things

1:21:15to be

1:21:17um selecting for as it relates to the

1:21:19job you take the people you're around

1:21:21that kind of thing like if there's a 23

1:21:23year old listening to this that is a you

1:21:26know an apprentice at a floristry shop

1:21:29making bouquets of flour and they're

1:21:32being offered five different jobs in the

1:21:33industry of floristry which one should

1:21:36they be looking at if they're in the

1:21:37early steps of their apprenticeship very

1:21:39easy question to answer thank you

1:21:41um you want to look for the job that

1:21:43offers you the most possibilities of

1:21:45learning so if you're going to go to a

1:21:47florist shop where there's only one

1:21:50other person there it's like an

1:21:52entrepreneur who started it and you're

1:21:55going to be like their right hand man or

1:21:57woman and you're going to learn and the

1:21:59pay is half of what you could get at

1:22:02this very fancy you could be of working

1:22:04at the shop at some department store

1:22:06where they'd pay you triple take the job

1:22:08that pays one-third where you're going

1:22:10to learn the most you're going to learn

1:22:11about the business you're going to learn

1:22:14from the ground up and you note is going

1:22:17to be a level of excitement where

1:22:19you know we might not survive another

1:22:22few months we've got to work hard we've

1:22:23got to be motivated we're all on the

1:22:25same page here a lot of people when

1:22:27they're 23 they grab the job with the

1:22:29biggest paycheck and that's a mistake

1:22:31because if you go to like a large large

1:22:34firm

1:22:35you're kind of lost you don't have as

1:22:38much responsibility you suddenly have to

1:22:40deal with all the political games the 48

1:22:42Laws of Power you're not paying

1:22:45attention you're not developing skills

1:22:46as much you don't have as much

1:22:48responsibility

1:22:49take the job that has one half the

1:22:52salary but you're responsible you're

1:22:55going to be learning and it's up to you

1:22:57that's that's the most important thing

1:23:00you can do when you're at that point in

1:23:01your life you say there's three steps in

1:23:04that apprenticeship deep observation

1:23:07is that what you mean when you say deep

1:23:09observation you mean like being able to

1:23:10observe the job happening would you mean

1:23:12something else well it means that it

1:23:15also means

1:23:16so most people when they start a job

1:23:18their whole their first impulses I've

1:23:20got to impress people I've got to make

1:23:22them like me that's that inward

1:23:24Direction that's so deadly and seduction

1:23:26and it's deadly in life you want to be

1:23:29outer directed you want to observe the

1:23:32codes and conventions of your field the

1:23:34social codes you know what what's

1:23:37acceptable behavior what's not

1:23:38acceptable behavior the skills involved

1:23:41the the various heuristics the various

1:23:43things that you have to learn that

1:23:46create skill you want to be a sponge

1:23:48absorbing what's going on around you

1:23:51what are the things you need to learn

1:23:53what are the valuable skills what are

1:23:56the things that aren't valuable what are

1:23:58who are the people you need to avoid who

1:23:59are the people you need to emulate

1:24:01you're a laser you're just observing

1:24:04everything around you and not worried

1:24:06about yourself that's the proper that's

1:24:09deep observation you talked about skill

1:24:11there it's all well and good seeing

1:24:12skills and knowing what skills are

1:24:14important but acquiring those skills is

1:24:16pointing two when you're in that

1:24:17apprenticeship phase in life skills

1:24:19acquisition and this kind of goes to

1:24:21what you're saying with the working in a

1:24:22florist shop next to the entrepreneur

1:24:24you're going to be Hands-On you're going

1:24:26to be doing which is also goes to what

1:24:27you said earlier about parents and

1:24:29children like putting them in situations

1:24:31where they get to do stuff yeah a lot of

1:24:33jobs don't offer that a lot of jobs

1:24:35don't offer the difficulty the challenge

1:24:36right

1:24:39Hamilton is that well we call it

1:24:41learning by doing and you see some

1:24:44things play into how the human brain

1:24:46operates that which that's what you want

1:24:47I'd give the image in the in the

1:24:49introduction to master the pardon the

1:24:51alliteration here but the brain has a

1:24:53grain to it

1:24:54you want to work with that grain you

1:24:56don't want to work against the grain

1:24:58because it's counterproductive and one

1:25:00of the grains of the brain sorry is

1:25:03learning by doing when

1:25:06you know flashback 300 000 years ago and

1:25:10we're sitting there we're making tools

1:25:12out of Bones out of wood Etc

1:25:14the way the skill was passed on to other

1:25:17people and didn't die with with one

1:25:19generation was you watch this person

1:25:22making the tool and then you watch them

1:25:24and you learn and you imitated them

1:25:26flash forward to the medieval period in

1:25:28Europe where they had apprentices

1:25:30apprenticeship schools seven years

1:25:33you're learning masonry you're learning

1:25:35carpentry you're learning whatever for

1:25:38seven years you're sitting there

1:25:39watching somebody make things and you're

1:25:40doing it that's how the brain operates

1:25:43you learn by doing not by thinking not

1:25:46by thinking oh this is how things are

1:25:49fitted in more you know with mortars etc

1:25:52etc no am I doing it with my hands the

1:25:55human the brain and the Hand have the

1:25:58most connection of any part of our body

1:26:00because so much of our power as a

1:26:02species depended on our hands we don't

1:26:04have much of that anymore but

1:26:07learning by doing things with your hands

1:26:09or making things is how the brain is

1:26:12wired so you want to go with that grain

1:26:15so you want to do things you want to

1:26:16make things you want to be learning

1:26:18through action not through just a lot of

1:26:20talk and you know

1:26:23as you might know the show's not

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1:26:40there wondering could my place be an

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1:27:10could just use some extra money to cover

1:27:11some bills or for something a little bit

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1:27:23one of the things that um that you

1:27:25referenced at the start of this

1:27:26conversation I think maybe even off

1:27:27camera was in 2018 you had a stroke

1:27:31um and that changed your life in a very

1:27:32fundamental way

1:27:34can you tell me what what happened and

1:27:36how it's How it changed you

1:27:39well

1:27:41it was a terrifying experience

1:27:45um you know I was in a coma

1:27:47uh I emerged from it and suddenly

1:27:49I'm somebody who's very physical I I

1:27:51Sports was a huge part of my life I

1:27:55would swim very long distances I love

1:27:57mountain biking I I was doing all kinds

1:28:00of um hiking it was extremely important

1:28:03to me I was every single day I did

1:28:05something physical to take my mind off

1:28:07things Suddenly It's taken away from me

1:28:10the left side of my body is basically

1:28:12paralyzed I have no control over it to

1:28:14this day I still have problems with it

1:28:17can't swim

1:28:19can't mountain bike can't hike right

1:28:23I can't take my mind I can't think while

1:28:25I'm taking a hike I can't type for a

1:28:28rider that's not much fun

1:28:30I had to deal with crap that I've never

1:28:33had to deal with my life I had a pretty

1:28:35easy time compared to this I had to

1:28:38learn new life skills

1:28:40when I'm already 62 years old you know

1:28:43that is an easy stuff I don't want a

1:28:46whine or complaint because people deal

1:28:47with worse stuff all the time a lot of

1:28:49people get cancer Etc

1:28:51but it's this anybody who's had a stroke

1:28:54knows what I'm talking about it's very

1:28:56hard because you can practice and

1:28:59practice and practice and practice hours

1:29:01and hours of therapy I do over an hour

1:29:04of therapy every day and you hardly

1:29:06notice any results

1:29:08the frustration you takes you 10 minutes

1:29:11to tie your shoes you can't button your

1:29:14your thing you have to get other people

1:29:16to do that it's hard to cut food

1:29:19you have to be patient you have to

1:29:22accept this you have to find another way

1:29:24of loving your life of accepting these

1:29:26things that you took for granted before

1:29:28and I tell people I look out my window

1:29:31now where I'm writing and I see people

1:29:33walking their dog and I put myself in

1:29:36their shoes and go God

1:29:38that must be so great just to walk your

1:29:40dog down the street what a pleasurable

1:29:43thing they don't realize it

1:29:45you take it for granted now please don't

1:29:47take it for granted understand that the

1:29:50ability that you have now to run to walk

1:29:52your dog to swim to type it can be taken

1:29:55away from you and just appreciate your

1:29:58life what you have because the things

1:30:00that I love were taken away from me and

1:30:02I wish they hadn't been so I've had to

1:30:04adjust myself

1:30:06you know when something like that

1:30:07happens in life when you

1:30:09when you are the the victim of an of a

1:30:13tragedy or instance or circumstance or

1:30:16something that happens there's often a

1:30:18degree of unfairness surrounding it when

1:30:20I when I read about that incident in

1:30:222018 I've read that it was a bee sting

1:30:25that caused a clot that caused the

1:30:28stroke

1:30:32yeah I know it's actually I think a wasp

1:30:35but if that wasp had been like moving

1:30:39the wind a bit a little different and it

1:30:41would move this way instead of this way

1:30:43may not have had a stroke you know but I

1:30:46can tell you this so

1:30:48um in May of that year the the stroke

1:30:51was in August in May I'd finished the

1:30:54laws of human nature which took me five

1:30:55years and when I finished that book

1:30:58I felt like I was near death I was so

1:31:00exhausted I was so drained you know my

1:31:03wife was really worried about me because

1:31:04I just looked really Haggard slowly I

1:31:08kind of recovered but then

1:31:10in July I went to New York

1:31:12and I forgot my blood pressure

1:31:14medication that I'd take so my blood

1:31:17pressure was starting to rise and then I

1:31:19came back to LA and I walked in this

1:31:21park and the bee the wasp stung me here

1:31:24and my whole chest turned red and it was

1:31:26like the most unbearable feeling so I

1:31:29went to the hospital they gave me this

1:31:31drug called Prednisone to relieve the

1:31:33itching prednisone increases your blood

1:31:35pressure

1:31:36and so when I ended up having the stroke

1:31:39the blood clot it was right where the

1:31:40wasp sting was so the neurologist said

1:31:43probably all this cholesterol was

1:31:45released from that drugs that from that

1:31:48wasp being here and that's where the

1:31:50blood clot occurred okay but there were

1:31:54all these other circumstances that kind

1:31:55of led to it a kind of a perfect storm

1:31:57and maybe if I hadn't had that wasp

1:32:01sting it would have happened four months

1:32:03later under different circumstances and

1:32:06I would have died because what happened

1:32:08was I was driving my car when I got my

1:32:11stroke my wife was in the other seat she

1:32:14saw

1:32:15something really strange going on my

1:32:18face I didn't notice it she forced me to

1:32:21pull over the side of the road

1:32:2390 of the time I'm alone I'm swimming

1:32:25I'm hiking I'm driving could have

1:32:28happened four months from then

1:32:30she wouldn't be there I'd be dead right

1:32:32now so I can't really think in terms of

1:32:36oh if that wasp had been diverted it

1:32:38would be a good feeling but it's too

1:32:40painful for me to imagine I like to

1:32:42think of fortunately someone was there

1:32:44who saved my life because it could have

1:32:47very well happen four months from then

1:32:49because I my body was worn down and

1:32:52something much worse could have happened

1:32:55that that Journey you described of

1:32:58having to rebuild and relearn and re

1:33:00redesign your life it's we've talked

1:33:02about the topic of power so much in this

1:33:04conversation in that moment it sounds

1:33:07like your power to some degree had been

1:33:09taken from you

1:33:11you know um

1:33:13you you learn like at least for me when

1:33:17I looked at people I Look to people

1:33:18differently after my stroke

1:33:21I had more empathy for them I'm normally

1:33:23an empathetic person but I was looking

1:33:25at people in the pandemic who got long

1:33:30covered who were having Strokes or were

1:33:33having terrible circumstances or when I

1:33:35look at people who are disabled because

1:33:37I'm essentially disabled now

1:33:40I understand them I and and also the

1:33:43other thing is when I look at people who

1:33:45are really poor

1:33:47um who are struggling in life

1:33:50they feel really dependent and helpless

1:33:54I felt that physically I don't feel that

1:33:56materially because I don't have that

1:33:57problem anymore thank God but I I have

1:34:00more empathy I understand it not an

1:34:02intellectual way but in a visceral

1:34:04physical way that sensation of

1:34:07I don't know where my food's coming from

1:34:09I don't know what's going to happen the

1:34:11next day I'm weak I'm dependent I'm

1:34:13helpless it's miserable

1:34:16I kind of understood that feeling now on

1:34:18a on a different level

1:34:20on a level that affected me personally

1:34:22and it's a lot different than having it

1:34:24affect you in an intellectual way

1:34:28the phases in that journey to where you

1:34:30are today the first phase after the

1:34:32incident you wake up you realize that

1:34:35your your life has changed what's what's

1:34:37going on in your psychology what's going

1:34:38on in your mind you talked about

1:34:40helplessness and

1:34:42to be honest with you what happened to

1:34:45me was

1:34:46right afterwards there was the level of

1:34:48delusion in my mind I kept thinking well

1:34:51in three months I'll be back at it I'll

1:34:54be in six months I'll be swimming in a

1:34:56year I'll be hiking again I deluded my I

1:34:59wasn't aware of how hard the process was

1:35:02and then six months eight months a year

1:35:04down the road as I realized I was wrong

1:35:07that's when the depression sat in that's

1:35:09when it really started hitting me I

1:35:11thought I'd be back here I am four years

1:35:14on I thought it'd be back to my life but

1:35:16I'm not

1:35:18you know so that's what was the hardest

1:35:21struggle was actually a year in there

1:35:23and going

1:35:24there's a phase where you kind of

1:35:25plateau where you're not really

1:35:27progressing anymore that's the worst

1:35:29part of it I'm progressing now again

1:35:32because I have a great therapist but

1:35:34I had to deal with really bad depression

1:35:37about a year a year and a half in when

1:35:39it started realized this is my life man

1:35:42I'm gonna always have this funny arm

1:35:44that's Bowing in I'm going to be walking

1:35:47like this

1:35:48I I don't I never expected this in my

1:35:51life so I've had to deal with that and

1:35:54I've had to kind of find a way to not

1:35:57let it get me down to find other

1:35:58pleasures and joys in life Etc which I

1:36:01have

1:36:02how how do you find a way to not let it

1:36:04get you down I'm thinking now about

1:36:05people that are listening to this that

1:36:06might be struggling with their own

1:36:08subjective struggles in life they've

1:36:10been they've lost their job they've you

1:36:13know they've they have a disability

1:36:14whatever it might be what are what are

1:36:17the successful strategies you've

1:36:18deployed to try and remain

1:36:22I keep that peace of mind

1:36:24well I don't know how much of it is

1:36:25applicable because I'm at a phase of

1:36:28life where I don't have material worries

1:36:31you know and I could have had a kind of

1:36:35stroke where my physical element would

1:36:38have been untouched but my brain would

1:36:40have been damaged which is another part

1:36:41that would have been worse because I

1:36:44wouldn't have been able to write another

1:36:45book and I have a very active mind

1:36:49um

1:36:49so for me being able to write another

1:36:52book is my salvation so when it's three

1:36:55o'clock in the afternoon when I get down

1:36:57to writing

1:36:58it's the happiest moment of my life I

1:37:00feel at peace I'm back to my work and I

1:37:03love my work and I love what I'm writing

1:37:05about it saved me a lot I do meditation

1:37:08I've been meditating now for about 12

1:37:10years I think more more than that every

1:37:13morning it's a ritual I have to meditate

1:37:16if I don't something is wrong and I've

1:37:19never missed a day I can honestly say

1:37:21and it it just calms me down it just

1:37:25gives me a strength throughout the whole

1:37:27day so I get up

1:37:30seven o'clock you know the sun's usually

1:37:32showing because it's Los Angeles and

1:37:35um I'll go it's the morning

1:37:38I'm greeting the morning I'm greeting

1:37:40the sun it's like I'm in like I'm a you

1:37:43know somebody four thousand years ago in

1:37:46a tribe here's the sun it's it's a

1:37:49miracle that there's even something like

1:37:50that the birds are chirping I'm looking

1:37:52at the Ivy the sky is blue

1:37:56calm myself down

1:37:58intrusive negative thoughts start

1:38:00popping into my mind you didn't do this

1:38:02you have a podcast today at two o'clock

1:38:04Robert you want to do this that and the

1:38:06other

1:38:07I'd get rid of them I go calm down put

1:38:09that away ground yourself and it's

1:38:11helped immeasurably the other thing is

1:38:15always keep in mind that there are

1:38:16people who have it worse than you so I

1:38:19don't want to feel sorry for I don't

1:38:20like the sense of feeling sorry for

1:38:22myself

1:38:23in fact sometimes I turn it around and I

1:38:26look at that person walking the dog or

1:38:28jogging they go I actually feel sorry

1:38:30for you because you're not aware of how

1:38:33precarious life is you're not aware of

1:38:36how this can be taken away from you

1:38:37you're not aware of how precious it is

1:38:39to just be alive and just to see the sky

1:38:42and the birds so I feel better than you

1:38:45in a way I turned it around I don't want

1:38:47to feel sorry for myself the things

1:38:49they're people who have it worse I read

1:38:51in the newspaper all the time you know

1:38:53cancer you're in Ukraine or I was

1:38:56dealing a lot with people in in Iran

1:38:58right now what they're dealing with I

1:39:00don't have to deal with that kind of

1:39:01crap like being in Iran and dealing with

1:39:04that daily life how how horrifying you

1:39:07know these are thoughts that take you

1:39:09out of the moment where you're feeling

1:39:10sorry for yourself and you're kind of

1:39:12grateful for certain things so those are

1:39:14some of the strategies I've had to kind

1:39:16of create for myself

1:39:20I find it so um I find it so

1:39:25I guess powerful to hear those

1:39:26strategies because we all get caught up

1:39:29in

1:39:30a narrow perspective and our own

1:39:33subjective feelings that we're suffering

1:39:35or that life is against us and then that

1:39:37kind of torments us in many ways as

1:39:39you've post-stroke in 2018

1:39:42um is there anything else that you have

1:39:44learned about the nature of Happiness

1:39:46from from that incident that we that you

1:39:49might not have known before that

1:39:51incident that I might not fully

1:39:52understand now

1:39:53the things I heard you talk about are

1:39:55the importance of a sense of purpose how

1:39:58perspective and gratitude are Central to

1:40:02are feelings of happiness but is there

1:40:04any other observations you've had that

1:40:06I'm just saying this from my own selfish

1:40:07perspective because I want to know

1:40:09well first of all I don't want to give

1:40:11the impression

1:40:12that I've solved everything so I'm a

1:40:15work in progress I have moments where I

1:40:18get so frustrated it's almost like I

1:40:21have Tourette's Syndrome

1:40:24like I can't you know I'm still four

1:40:27years in and my arm is still like this

1:40:28and I still can't brush my teeth if I

1:40:30want I get very frustrated so

1:40:33I'm getting better but it's still a work

1:40:35in progress I don't want to give the

1:40:36impression that I've somehow this I've

1:40:39mastered it because it has mastered me I

1:40:42have a long way to go but I'm getting a

1:40:44lot better A lot better at it day to day

1:40:48um

1:40:49you know I don't know I think I've kind

1:40:51of touched on everything only in the

1:40:53sense of

1:40:54what about connection you talked about

1:40:56your wife yes he's helped me a lot

1:41:00God bless her soul she's had to take