The Power Expert: "Nothing Is Real, And I Can Prove It!" Your Brain Creates A Fake World | Jack Neel

0:00What Jeffrey Epstein was was a master

0:02middleman. He could connect you to

0:04anything you wanted. He knew your

0:06weaknesses, appeal to people's

0:08self-interest. Today's guest is the

0:11number one expert in the world on power,

0:13seduction, and the law of the sublime.

0:16>> It's not that the sublime is something

0:18spiritual and invisible or something

0:21that you can't see. You start seeing

0:23things as they are. The brain loses that

0:26functioning. It's no longer able to

0:28construct this kind of matrix world that

0:30we're living in. It's totally fake. One

0:32of the bestselling authors alive, he's

0:34taught a generation of founders,

0:36rappers, and world leaders the hidden

0:38laws of influence. But after a wasp

0:40sting nearly killed him, he's written

0:42the final book of his career on death. I

0:45try to take you through a death ritual

0:48in which I lead you through feeling your

0:51own body dying.

0:53>> Can you walk me through my own death? In

0:55this episode, we'll explore why the most

0:56powerful people [music] are obsessed

0:57with living forever, reveal the habits

0:59in your life that are keeping you

1:01asleep, and question if he really

1:03believes he died. What exactly did he

1:05see at his own funeral? I was up above,

1:09like in the sky somewhere, like a drone,

1:11looking down, and there was my

1:13girlfriend and my mother, and they were

1:16attending my funeral. And all I can

1:18remember was saying to myself, Robert

1:21Green, welcome to the Jack Neil podcast.

1:23Thank you so much for having me, Jack.

1:24My pleasure.

1:25>> Yeah, it's great to have you back here.

1:27Uh,

1:28Robert, a good place to start here. You

1:32spent the last 30 years of your career

1:35studying the most influential,

1:38powerful people that have ever lived.

1:42What do the most powerful people in the

1:43world fear the most? I think they fear

1:47losing their attention and becoming kind

1:49of forgotten and neglected,

1:52you know? So being powerful and being in

1:54the limelight is kind of like a drug and

1:56you get addicted to it and then when it

1:59disappears like let's say you were

2:01president and then you're no longer the

2:03president you go into your private life

2:06you miss that excitement that jolt the

2:08adrenaline the intensity of it and the

2:10fact that people aren't really paying

2:12attention to you anymore.

2:14I remember I'm not in that league, so

2:16don't don't get me wrong, but I remember

2:18I would be like early on with my books.

2:21I'd be on national television and it'd

2:24be kind of exciting, the glamour and,

2:26you know, and meeting famous people and

2:28being interviewed and then I would go

2:29home alone to my hotel room and I would

2:32feel so depressed

2:34like it was gone. It was just all that

2:36attention. Now it's nothing. I think

2:38they fear most of all oblivion of of

2:42being forgotten and that is sort of like

2:45a slight intimation a slight hint of

2:47death itself but I think that's what

2:50they fear most

2:51>> right I guess and when you think about

2:54death versus

2:58the material world like mastering

3:01seduction power control uh you have a

3:05new book the law of the sublime is

3:09what has that taught you about the

3:12material world versus

3:15uh this other world you describe? Well,

3:18it's not that the sublime is something

3:21spiritual and invisible or something

3:23that you can't see or that it's

3:25different from the material world. In

3:26fact, it is very much about interacting

3:29with the material world on a very deep

3:32concrete level. getting outside of your

3:34smartphone, getting outside of all of

3:36your virtuality, getting outside of

3:38social media, and actually encountering

3:40life itself, the blood flowing through

3:43you, the air that you're breathing,

3:45people, and being kind of immersed in

3:48reality, right? And so it's not like a

3:51dichotomy between the spiritual and the

3:54material. But the book, you know, it was

3:58a very difficult book to write because I

4:00had so much to overcome

4:03and it made me kind of confront myself a

4:07lot. All my books do that. Like my human

4:10nature book, I had to kind of come to

4:12terms with the fact that many of the

4:14negative qualities in the book that I

4:16describe about human nature, I had. So,

4:20but this book I had to confront my own

4:23limitations. I had a stroke. I couldn't

4:27physically do the things that I love

4:28doing because I'm a very physical

4:31person. I love movement. I love sports.

4:34I love, you know, doing activities,

4:37climbing, hiking. to have that all of

4:39that taken away from you like overnight

4:42and then to try and write a book and

4:44have that discipline and to get deeply

4:47into the material. It was so difficult.

4:50It was a struggle day in and day out.

4:52And what the book taught me is that I

4:55have resources. I I can do whatever I

4:57want, whatever I put my mind to. It was

4:59an incredible sense of accomplishment.

5:02That's what the book taught me. It

5:03taught me that whatever I put my mind

5:05to, I can do. Because at moments I

5:08wanted to give up, I just couldn't take

5:10it anymore. I couldn't take the fact

5:11that I had to handw write the entire

5:14book. I couldn't type. It was a very

5:16tedious process. And at moments I just I

5:19just can't do this anymore. But I kept

5:22going. I kept going. I kept going. And I

5:24started developing momentum. And it was

5:28it was a hard book to write. But in the

5:29end, the feeling was incredibly sublime

5:32that I actually made it there and that I

5:34I have this. And I feel like I could die

5:38tomorrow, which it could happen to

5:40anybody, but particularly, you know,

5:41with what I went through, but I

5:43accomplished something and I expressed

5:46something very deep inside of me and so

5:49kind of gives my life sort of a meaning

5:50and a purpose,

5:52>> right? And this is just my own

5:55curiosity, but uh do you feel like you

5:58produced a different piece of art, like

6:01a different piece of writing given that

6:03you handwrote it instead of typed it?

6:05It's a great question. Um in my other

6:08books, I often would handw write the

6:11first draft and then I would type it in

6:13and it would be kind of quick. M

6:16>> here I I hand wrote but when I came time

6:20to editing it because my first drafts of

6:24everything I write is absolutely

6:25terrible it's just horrifi I would never

6:27want anybody to see it very poor poor

6:30writing not organized but I had to

6:33rewrite it and so I used to like type

6:35really quickly and edit now I had to

6:38take one notebook with my writing and

6:40then rewrite it in the other notebook

6:42looking at it and rewriting it that way

6:44Slow, slow, slow. Right. This book took

6:48seven years. If I could have typed, I

6:50think it would have taken five, five and

6:51a half years. So, it added almost two

6:52years to the process. But the slowness,

6:56I think, had an effect on the book how

6:58it reads. I had to be much more careful.

7:01I had to think more deeply. I had to go

7:04through every sentence and look at it

7:06and then redo it with my hand. It was

7:09tedious. But I think it made a different

7:11kind of book. It made it in some ways it

7:14made the book a little bit more alive at

7:16least to me because I had to be so slow

7:19with it. I think it definitely feels

7:21that way. Uh when reading it in an

7:25interview this April, you said something

7:28that I think is particularly relevant to

7:31kind of how everyone feels right now.

7:34You said, quote, "Sometimes I feel like

7:36I'm living in an insane asylum. People

7:38are literally going mad

7:40>> and I include myself in that. [laughter]

7:42>> Why do you think everyone's going insane

7:44right now?

7:45>> Well, I I I remember I had the thought

7:47when I was on one of my bike rides. I

7:49have a very weird special recumbent bike

7:52that I can use. It's like my therapy.

7:54And I remember looking out at the world

7:57and there were people playing golf on

7:59this golf course next to where I ride my

8:01bike. And I just got a sense of people

8:05feeling unhappy, feeling kind of

8:08miserable by the way the world is right

8:10now. And it's kind of making everybody

8:13insane. And there's a famous Sufi tale

8:17where there's a man who um everybody he

8:21realizes that everybody's drinking this

8:23water that's making them insane. and

8:25he's the only sane person. And he

8:28decides to take fresh water that isn't

8:30contaminated and go up into a cave and

8:32live. And he realizes at some point that

8:35being the only sane person is

8:37horrifying. He's so alone. So he goes

8:39back into town and he drinks it and

8:41becomes insane so he could be with other

8:43people. And so the feeling is I don't

8:46want to feel like I'm different from

8:48others. I understand that I've drunk the

8:50same contaminated water that everybody's

8:52drinking.

8:53The world is a crazy place right now.

8:56We're all like, we don't know where

8:58we're going. We're like in a car that's

9:01like careening around on a road. We have

9:03no idea where the direction is. We might

9:05fall off a cliff. With AI, with the

9:08economy, with way the world is going,

9:10with politics, with everything so damn

9:13turbulent, where nothing stays the same.

9:16If you could actually quantify the rate

9:18of change in the world in 2026 versus

9:21the world that I kind of grew up like

9:23let's say the early 1970s when I was

9:26like in school and stuff. It's just

9:29astronomical how much faster things are

9:31trends nothing lasts. People are

9:33interested in something for a couple

9:35months then it's on to something else. I

9:37think it's making us crazy because the

9:41human animal, because we're the only

9:43creature that we know of that is aware

9:45of our own mortality,

9:48wants a sense of permanence, wants a

9:50sense of stability in our world, even if

9:52it's a fault, even if it's an illusion.

9:55And to feel like everything is just like

9:57madness, like everything's moving so

9:59quickly, I think has a very strange

10:01effect on us psychologically.

10:04And I read something in the New York

10:05Times a couple weeks ago that kind of

10:07stunned me, which is it was a article

10:10about anti-depressants and it said one

10:12in six Americans are in

10:14anti-depressants.

10:16That's a shockingly high number. Now

10:20people in the 40s and 50s um and I can

10:23remember my parents in the 60s, they

10:25were drinking a lot. So it's not like

10:28anti-depressants or medication is

10:30something new. People were medicating

10:31themselves even back then. But I think

10:35there's a different feel to it now. And

10:37it's not just people on

10:38anti-depressants. I just feel we're all

10:41afraid. We don't know where we're

10:42headed, right? And and I particularly

10:45get that sense from young people

10:47>> who have a sense of they don't feel like

10:49there's a future. And when you feel like

10:51the future is bleak or dark or chaotic,

10:55I think it has a powerful psychological

10:57effect on you. not a not necessarily a

10:59healthy effect on you. I definitely get

11:02that sense right now uh as well that

11:06there's so much uncertainty and

11:10I I do want to touch on your thoughts on

11:13therapy and your thoughts on AI later in

11:15this interview.

11:16>> Sure.

11:18I think a good place to start as far as

11:22the book. Uh, on August 17th, 2018, you

11:26were walking in Griffith Park when a

11:29wasp stung you on the neck. A week

11:32later, that sting became a blood clot,

11:35and that blood clot became a stroke.

11:38In the opening pages of your book, you

11:40reveal something you haven't fully

11:42talked about before in any interview.

11:45As your brain prepared to die, you felt

11:47your bones dissolving and watched your

11:49own funeral.

11:51>> Yeah. What'd you say at your own

11:53funeral?

11:54>> Well, it's weird because uh when I had

11:57the stroke

11:59there, I was sort of acting very

12:01strangely. My girlfriend was sitting

12:03next to me in the car. I was driving,

12:06you know, I was slurring my speech. I'm

12:08not aware that I'm having a stroke and I

12:09started getting out of the car and uh I

12:12was acting very strange and then I'm

12:14unconscious. And obviously in my state

12:17of unconsciousness, I'm not really

12:19seeing or feeling anything. Some people

12:22who have a near-death experience,

12:25they're actually somewhat aware when

12:27they're unconscious of things happening.

12:30I can't say I was, but I woke up

12:33probably an hour later after my stroke

12:37in a room. I didn't know where I was. I

12:39didn't know what happened to me. I was

12:41in a gurnie and there were all these

12:43other gurnies. I was alone. And I felt

12:45like I was abandoned. I thought I was

12:47like in some weird nightmare. I didn't

12:48know what had happened, right? And I

12:51remember feeling

12:53that sense of my bones dissolving as if

12:56it had happened while I was unconscious.

12:58And it stayed with me. It was like your

13:01bones are becoming liquid. And as they

13:04were becoming kind of liquid, it gave

13:06like this strange taste in my mouth. So

13:09I knew that it it was something that

13:10probably happened while I was

13:11unconscious, but it was very real. And

13:14then the image came to me of my own

13:17funeral. And I don't know for sure

13:20whether it's something that happened

13:21once I awoke, but I had the sensation

13:24that it was something I was remembering

13:26from when I was unconscious. And all it

13:29was was I was up above like in the sky

13:32somewhere like a drone looking down and

13:36there was my girlfriend and my mother

13:39and they were attending my funeral. And

13:42all I can remember was saying to myself,

13:45"Everything's going to be okay." You

13:47know, like life goes on. They're going

13:50to be okay. They're going to take care

13:52of each other. They'll be all right.

13:54I've died, but the world goes on. I

13:58mean, I can't really say much more

13:59because so many of these things are

14:02sensations. They're feelings, and

14:04they're not something you can easily

14:06verbalize. But I do remember hearing in

14:08my head, "Everything goes on.

14:11everything's going to be okay. And I

14:13knew it was my own funeral because it

14:15was at a cemetery where my father was

14:18buried. And so I knew that that was the

14:20location.

14:20>> So you didn't feel sadness. It was just

14:24the feeling of everything's going to be

14:25fine.

14:26>> You there was no sadness at all attained

14:28to it. It was very very peaceful. A lot

14:31of people who've who've had near-death

14:32experiences, and as I I have to qualify,

14:35I can't really say I had a classic

14:38near-death experience, but a lot of

14:40people who have had the very powerful,

14:42intense version.

14:44Some people have a hellish experience,

14:47and they've documented maybe about 10

14:4915%. Most people have an incredibly

14:52positive experience, which is very

14:54strange if you think about it. But

14:56there's often a sense of peacefulness

14:59and calmness and like tranquility and

15:02like oneness like you're you finally

15:04gotten rid of all of your anxieties and

15:06fears and this is just it's just

15:08natural. It's just happening. So there

15:10was no sadness at all. And in the first

15:14week that I was in the hospital,

15:18I was laughing. I was joking. I never

15:20had a sense of loss. I had a feeling of

15:24God, I'm so happy I'm alive. I was

15:26exhilarated. So there was never the

15:29sadness came later when I had to deal

15:33with my loss of physical powers. But the

15:36first week and that first day and

15:37minutes after the stroke,

15:39I was frightened cuz I didn't know where

15:42I was, but I wasn't sad.

15:44>> Were you just like did you have some

15:47kind of like peace about

15:49your future death and that kind of gave

15:52you like this sense of bliss? I don't

15:54know if I was thinking so much. Um, it

15:58was just like

16:00I was here in this hospital room with

16:03all these people rushing about, doctors

16:05and everything

16:07and I was just laugh my my girlfriend

16:09who's now I'm now married to was like

16:11they the nurses actually thought there

16:13some I had brain damage. I was so happy

16:15and I was laughing so much. I was making

16:17all of these jokes. It wasn't conscious.

16:20I wasn't aware of why or what that was

16:23happening. But later when I thought

16:24about it, it must have been the idea

16:28like you know people don't realize death

16:31is actually something very physical.

16:34It's not we for us for those who have

16:37not had the experience it's an idea.

16:39It's a thought, but it's actually a very

16:42physical visceral sensation that you go

16:45through, right? And so, it kind of

16:49changes you, but you're not aware of why

16:51or how. It changes your body. It changes

16:54your neurology. It changes your your

16:57physiology. It changes your brain. And

17:00you're not aware of why, but that

17:02feeling of exhilaration

17:04just came naturally to me, like I'm

17:07alive. You know what else matters?

17:09Nothing. You know, we worry so much

17:12about things. We're always so worried

17:14about what people think about us. Like,

17:16did I say the right thing at that party?

17:18And does she like me? Does he like me?

17:22When you die or you come close to death,

17:25I don't give a, you know, f-word at all

17:27about any of these things. It's a

17:29feeling of freedom, of liberation. I

17:31don't care. It's a feeling of I don't

17:33care. It could be a very negative thing.

17:36You have to care. But at the moment it

17:38was like totally exhilarating.

17:41>> In chapter five of your book, you talk

17:44about Jill Bolt Taylor, a Harvard brain

17:47scientist whose

17:49>> own stroke felt blissful. The left

17:51hemisphere of her brain shut down and

17:54she experienced her ego offline and

17:56spent the rest of her life trying to get

17:58back to that

17:59>> nirvanaike blissful state. Do you feel

18:03like you've been trying to get back to

18:05that feeling? That's a very interesting

18:07question. I never thought of it that

18:08way, but it probably in some sense, yes.

18:12So, I remember being in the hospital

18:17like maybe the first hours or so and

18:19looking out the window of the hospital

18:22room and like, wo, how beautiful, how

18:25intense things are.

18:27>> And it wasn't like in comparison to what

18:30was before. It was just like, God, the

18:32sky is so blue. It's so beautiful. and

18:35trees and clouds. How I remember

18:37thinking, God, how weird clouds are. If

18:40you think about clouds, what are they?

18:42You know, it's they're strange,

18:44you know? I I thought since then,

18:46probably on no other planet are there

18:48like sky, blue sky and clouds. And so, I

18:51was sort of struck by things. And then I

18:54get back to my house. And then I have to

18:57deal with therapy and I can't walk. And

19:00I realize all that I've lost and I start

19:03to get depressed. started to get very

19:05depressed, you know, like I was somebody

19:08who swam every three days and swimming

19:11just cleansed me and to be like I can't

19:14go back into water now. It's like it was

19:17terrible. I was very depressed and so I

19:20had to go back to that feeling that

19:22you're talking about. I had to recover

19:24it and the book kind of got me there cuz

19:27I can't write a book unless I feel what

19:30I'm writing.

19:32I I don't know why all of my books have

19:34been like that. Even the 48 laws of

19:36power. I I felt deeply what I was

19:38writing. I had to feel the sublime in

19:41order to write about it. But how do you

19:43feel the sublime when you can't take a

19:45hike, when you can't go anywhere? I had

19:49to find it in my office looking out a

19:51window in my backyard and just having

19:54the food that I was eating and looking

19:56at the food. And so it forced me to like

19:59discover the sublime. So as you say, I

20:03was kind of recovering what I initially

20:05had felt but I had lost in that period

20:08of deep depression which probably lasted

20:10about a year and a half. H your book

20:13also talks about Carl Jung uh famous

20:17psychologist in his near-death

20:19experience. Essentially, he floated

20:21above the earth, reached a stone temple

20:24in outer space before his doctor

20:26appeared at the threshold or entrance uh

20:30and sent him back to a hospital bed. And

20:32he woke up devastated, saying, "Life

20:34back here felt quote flat and fake like

20:38theater props."

20:39>> Yes. Yes. Do you think when we die,

20:43we're actually waking up? Hey, quick

20:45question. And did you know that 2/3 of

20:47Americans have to drink coffee just to

20:49get through their day? Which kind of

20:51makes sense because ever since I started

20:53this podcast, I've been drinking more

20:55and more caffeine, which has ruined my

20:58sleep, my health, and honestly made me

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21:52you. But anyway, guys, back to the

21:55podcast. Do you think when we die, we're

21:58actually waking up? Uh, I think so. I

22:02think so very much. Um, there was a

22:05really interesting book by a woman who's

22:07quite skeptical of near-death

22:09experiences, and I read it for that

22:11purpose. Book is called Dying to Live.

22:14Uh, her name is Susan Blakemore, I

22:16believe. I don't remember exactly her

22:17name. It's a really good book,

22:20but she's a hardcore scientist. And what

22:22she tries to demonstrate is the brain,

22:26as you saw in the Jill Bolty Taylor, our

22:29brains construct reality for us. And

22:32we're not aware of that. So we don't

22:34realize that our brains construct the

22:36visual world in a very particular way.

22:40So how we see the world isn't how a cat

22:42sees the world, how a bat encounters the

22:44world. Our brains literally construct

22:47what we see. They also construct our

22:50reality. Language constructs our

22:53reality. We don't see trees growing out

22:55of the ground. We just see the word

22:57tree. We're not seeing things as they

22:59are.

23:01When you die, the brain loses that

23:05functioning. It's no longer able to

23:07construct this kind of fake world, this

23:11kind of matrix world that we're living

23:12in. It's totally fake. It's a fake human

23:16world. And as the brain dies and all of

23:18these things dissolve, you start seeing

23:21things as they are. That's what happened

23:23to Jill Bolty Taylor. She started seeing

23:26the world before the brain constructs it

23:29visually. like pixelated dots. She

23:32sensed that the brain constructs the

23:35fact that you have a body that's

23:36separated from other people, separated

23:38from the world. As the brain dies, she

23:42felt herself becoming one with

23:44everything around her. She was taking a

23:45shower. She felt herself dissolving into

23:47the shower.

23:49On and on and on. As the brain dies, as

23:52things shut down, you are suddenly

23:54seeing the world as it actually is. And

23:59in the Tibetan book of the dead which is

24:01a really amazing strange book

24:04particularly book 12 I think it is that

24:06talks about this the dying process

24:10the consciousness that you have as

24:12you're dying they believe these Tibetan

24:15Buddhists that that is the world as it

24:17is

24:19>> as I describe you're seeing the world as

24:21it is pure consciousness without words

24:24without all the human things that we

24:26ascribe to the world around Their whole

24:29goal in in Tibetan Buddhism through

24:31meditation is to achieve that same state

24:34that you have when you're dying while

24:36you're alive.

24:38And that's the point of my we're talking

24:40about my 12th chapter in the book about

24:42death and the death sublime. I'm trying

24:44to get the reader to go through death

24:48before they die so that they can have

24:50some of what I'm talking about of that

24:53sense of actually waking up to the world

24:55as it is. I mean, you describe it very

24:57well because the whole book to me is

25:00about waking up to the world as it

25:03actually is instead of the fake version

25:04of it that we all believe. But very much

25:07so in the final chapter just to

25:11make this really easily understandable

25:13for the audience eye. Would you say that

25:17that state where the left hemisphere is

25:22offline of your brain and you felt like

25:25you were seeing the clouds and thought

25:27they were strange and the sky felt more

25:30blue? Is that something people have in

25:33childhood more? Yeah. I mean ju just to

25:36reiterate my my stroke was on the right

25:39side of the brain which affected the

25:42left side of my body. Jill Bolty

25:44Taylor's stroke um is what's called a

25:47hemorrhagic stroke where blood just

25:48suddenly floods your brain

25:50>> and it just takes over the entire brain.

25:53And so I just wanted to make that

25:55distinction because if I had a stroke on

25:57my left side, I wouldn't be here talking

26:00to you right now because I wouldn't be

26:02able to speak my language. The left side

26:04of the brain um determines your language

26:06and cognitive abilities. I would lose a

26:09lot of my cognitive abilities and my

26:11speech abilities. We don't remember our

26:14earliest years for various reasons

26:15because they were before we had the

26:17power of language. And so if we don't

26:19have words, we don't really have

26:21memories of them. So when you're first

26:23born, you're just this crying, muing

26:27little bundle of nerves and needs and

26:30you're just you just have all these

26:32needs that people have to supply for

26:34you. And then maybe around 9 months old,

26:3810 months old, you calm down. You don't

26:41have all you're not all so needy. You

26:43don't always have to have things done

26:44for you. And you start observing the

26:46world. You start looking around. You're

26:49in your crib. You're on your back and

26:51you start noticing things that you you

26:53couldn't because you were so nervous.

26:55You start noticing colors. You have

26:57maybe a mobile over the crib and you're

26:59seeing motion and the world starts to

27:01fascinate you and it's pure. It's not

27:04have it's not you're not seeing words.

27:05You're seeing things as they are. And

27:08then you get a little bit older and

27:09you're able to walk and you go outside

27:11and you see, you know, how strange it is

27:14to be alive. How strange it is to see

27:16plants, mountains, humans walking

27:19around, animals, pets. Everything is

27:22fascinating and weird.

27:24>> It's like you're a space alien that's

27:26landed on planet Earth. You're seeing

27:29things for the first time and the world

27:30is strange and it's wondrous and it's

27:32amazing. And then you start learning

27:35words. And when you start learning

27:37language, even words are kind of

27:39fascinating. They're they're weird and

27:40you're wondering what that word means.

27:43But then you learn the word I and you

27:45learn I and ego and this is me and the

27:49sense of oh, I'm different from

27:51everybody else. When you were in your

27:54first months, you didn't have that sense

27:55of separation like I was talking about

27:57when you have a stroke. You don't feel

27:59separated. And now it's like, hm, I have

28:01an eye. I can look in the mirror and I

28:04can see myself. How strange it is to

28:07actually see yourself in a mirror as if

28:09you're looking at an object.

28:12Slowly you develop an ego and you go

28:15deeper and deeper and deeper into that

28:17eye. You start worrying about what

28:19people think about you in school, on the

28:21playground, in high school. You start

28:23becoming obsessed with the social world.

28:26And you go so far deep into that eye

28:29that you lose what you had in childhood.

28:32So that waking up feeling that I'm

28:35trying to give you in the book is

28:37actually a return to your childhood. In

28:39fact, one of the chapters is called

28:41return to your origin, the childhood

28:43sublime. So you're actually waking up.

28:46People feel kind of insane. They feel

28:49upset. They feel depressed. They feel

28:51like something is missing in their

28:53lives. Right? We all do. I do. You know,

28:57uh Elon Musk does. It's human nature.

29:00You can't avoid it. Even if you have

29:02trillions of dollars, you feel like

29:03something's missing, like there's an

29:04emptiness.

29:06I am trying to say, and I'm I'm just

29:08speculating, that some of it comes from

29:10the fact that you once knew when you

29:12were a child of a different reality, of

29:15a different way of looking at the world.

29:18And it's you've lost it. And it's back

29:22deep, buried deep in your mind. And you

29:24that feeling that you've lost it, you

29:25want to go back to it. If you had never

29:28had that childhood, you would never know

29:31what you had lost and you wouldn't feel

29:32so upset. But you once knew what it was

29:35to be connected to things, to not

29:37feeling separate. And so

29:40childhood has a deep impact on us in

29:42that we were constantly wanting to go

29:45back to it. And what I try and do in

29:47that chapter is it's not nostalgia. It's

29:51not looking at photographs. It's not

29:53seeing films from when you were a child.

29:55It's experiencing the world as you once

29:57did without all these filters, seeing

30:00things directly as a child experienced

30:02it. Going back to that original

30:04experience. That's what I'm trying to

30:06get you to do in this book.

30:08>> That's fascinating. I can't remember the

30:10exact study, but uh I think

30:13psychologists had taken a group of

30:15several men that were in their 50s and

30:18they sent them all to like a house or

30:21like a camp or something and they put

30:23all the items and magazines and articles

30:26and TV shows like it was 20 years

30:30earlier. And they did test on the guys

30:33and like their testosterone was higher.

30:36Uh really they were able to like have

30:38more energy throughout the day like they

30:40were smarter and they just like felt

30:42more like

30:42>> vibrant because they'd gone back in

30:44time. Uh

30:45>> wow.

30:46>> That's really fascinating. But you tell

30:48a story of Pamela Reynolds uh

30:51>> who was diagnosed with a brain aneurysm

30:54that could kill her at any moment. And

30:57the only way to save her life was I

31:00can't remember the exact surgery, but

31:02they essentially had to kill her to do

31:05the surgery. Yeah.

31:06>> Right.

31:07>> Tell me the story of that one. How did a

31:09dead woman hear music during her

31:11surgery?

31:12>> Well, it's one of the strangest. So,

31:14there's a vast growing literature on

31:15near-death experiences because since the

31:1860s, more and more people are being

31:19revived and telling their story. But

31:22there are a lot of skeptics around who

31:24believe that that's, you know, it's just

31:26hallucinations. There's nothing real.

31:30But the Pamela Reynolds Lowry story is

31:32often quoted because it's very very hard

31:36to explain it away. Okay. So

31:39essentially, although people have tried,

31:41so essentially she had that brain

31:43anorism that could pop at any moment and

31:45kill her. But in order to operate on it,

31:48if you try to operate through the brain

31:51while she's conscious, it's very likely

31:53that you'll pop that anorism. So the

31:56only way they could do the surgery was

31:58to freeze her whole body and bring it to

32:01a temperature where everything stopped.

32:04And the reason is if there was no

32:06activity going on in her brain, no no

32:09activity at all, then the surgeon could

32:13they were saw through the top of her

32:14brain could see all the way down to the

32:16stem because her aneurysm was on the

32:18stem which was made it the most

32:20dangerous of all. It was very deep down.

32:23he could see all the way down through

32:25because there wasn't any activity to

32:26like disrupt that have a clear picture

32:29and then he could put a clamp on the

32:31anerism and save her life essentially.

32:34Okay. But it meant

32:36pumping into her body, taking all of her

32:39blood out and putting at a temperature

32:42like in the 40s Fahrenheit and pumping

32:45it back in to such a degree that

32:48everything in her body would stop. Her

32:50heart would stop beating. They had to

32:52put her on a heart monitor to keep her

32:54and and had they had to artificially do

32:56her breathing for her.

32:59She would be completely unconscious.

33:02There were things put in her ears to

33:04stop to monitor her brain activity to

33:07make sure nothing was going on. But at

33:10the same time, she couldn't hear

33:12anything, right? Um her eyes were taped

33:15shut. Okay. But more than that, she was

33:18in a state of death. There was no brain

33:21activity. and they could see on their

33:22monitors, no brain activity. Okay, so

33:27she becomes unconscious. They wheel her

33:29in to be to have surgery and suddenly in

33:33the middle of it, she wakes up and she

33:36purchases herself on the shoulder of the

33:38surgeon who's doing the surgery and she

33:41sees the instruments that he's using and

33:44she she remembers they look very

33:46strange. It looks like an electric

33:47toothbrush that she's he's going to saw

33:49into her skull with. Okay. She sees the

33:52people, the other nurses, they're trying

33:54to find some uh I I forget the word into

33:57into her thigh to kind of monitor her.

34:01All these things she's seeing. And then

34:03she kind of floats into this other realm

34:05where it's everything is light and she

34:07starts communing with her dead a her

34:10dead cousins and uncles and

34:12grandparents.

34:14And then finally at the end of all of

34:15that, she comes back into her body like

34:18as if she's she's pushed into back into

34:20her body. It's like it's all freezing

34:22and it's like she dove into a pool of

34:25like a you know one of those cryogenic

34:27pools, right? And as she's back into her

34:30body, she hears the music, this eagle

34:34song, Hotel California, right? Blaring.

34:38and just going, "That's not very nice of

34:40them because the lyrics are, you can

34:42check in, but you can't check out as if

34:45she's going to check out of life." And

34:47then it all goes dark. She wakes up in a

34:50hospital bed and she tells the the

34:53doctor's assistant

34:55what she saw with the electric

34:57toothbrush, the instruments, what she

35:00heard about the what the nurses were

35:01saying, a few other details like that.

35:05She tells them that she heard the song

35:07Hotel California and that when she was

35:10finally resuscitated,

35:12she jumped twice. She didn't know that

35:14it was that they were resuscitating, but

35:16she remembers jumping twice.

35:19That's impossible. How could she known

35:20anything? She was dead. She was

35:22completely unconscious. She could not

35:25hear Hotel California. There's no way in

35:27hell. She can't see the instruments

35:30because her eyes are shut, right? And

35:32they were playing the song in the room,

35:34right? They played at the end. She knew

35:36exactly when they were playing it after

35:38surgery was over, right? She saw the

35:41instruments. She heard the song. She

35:44knew that she had jumped twice, which

35:46was how many times it took to

35:47resuscitate her. People have tried to

35:50explain rationally how it could have

35:52happened. But even the doctor who

35:55operated on her was who is a specialist

35:57who's like the only person in the world

35:59who does this kind of surgery who is a

36:01very skeptical man. He says I can't for

36:04the life of me figure out any

36:05explanation for this.

36:07>> It was totally strange. So the point is

36:11and people have struggled with it since

36:13and maybe at some point there is a

36:15rational explanation but I I don't no

36:17one has come up with it yet. Maybe um

36:22the brain, the physical brain is not

36:25what consciousness is. That there's

36:27something conscious that is separate

36:29from the brain. So that you can actually

36:32see and hear without the brain

36:36operating. What would that be? I don't

36:40know. But it makes you think that

36:42consciousness itself isn't dependent on

36:45something physical on the actual brain

36:47itself.

36:49It opens up all sorts of very strange

36:52questions. But the amazing thing about

36:54Pamela Lowry uh Reynolds after she got

36:58back to life, she was very depressed

37:01because

37:03her death experience was so blissful.

37:05The world was like paradise and now

37:07everybody was so ugly. And she became

37:10psychic. So in her near-death

37:12experience, she could hear people

37:14talking without them moving their lips.

37:16And now she's back to life and she has

37:19the same power. She can hear your

37:21thoughts. And her children and her

37:24father would corroborate that she was

37:25literally hearing their thoughts. And it

37:28was depressing her because the thoughts

37:30were so stupid. They were not sublime.

37:33And she ended up wanting to go back to

37:35dying. She ended up dying in in 2010

37:39after like 18 years after the surgery.

37:41But it's a very strange story cuz it

37:44just opens up all of these questions.

37:46And a lot of near-death experiences open

37:48them up. They kind of get a little bit

37:51woo woo in a way that makes me a little

37:54bit uncomfortable because I don't really

37:56feel that's not how I look at the world.

37:58I don't see things as that mystical and

38:01I'm not I don't believe that you know

38:03God is controlling all of this. But it

38:05it opens up ideas that we can't explain.

38:08mysteries, things, something about our

38:10consciousness is very strange and very

38:12mysterious and we don't know what it is

38:14yet and maybe in a hundred years we'll

38:16figure it out.

38:17>> I found that one particularly

38:18fascinating because it seemed hard to

38:22for her to be making it up. You know,

38:24>> there was no possible way she could have

38:25made it up because it was right after

38:27she woke up. She didn't hear anybody

38:29talking about it

38:31and uh there there was there's no ex

38:34possible explanation. Some people said

38:36maybe when she entered the room she saw

38:39the instruments, but the doctor said the

38:42instruments were hidden away. Even at

38:44that point she was unconscious. But even

38:46if she wasn't, the instruments were

38:48hidden away. She couldn't have seen what

38:50they looked like. So there there are

38:53other stories that will blow your mind

38:55about near-death experiences even

38:56weirder than hers. I just didn't want to

38:58go into them necessarily.

39:00On

39:02uh near-death experiences over the last

39:06eight years, decade of you doing

39:09podcast, whenever an interviewer asks

39:11you about the afterlife, you often don't

39:15have

39:16a clear-cut answer or have said

39:20something along the lines of quote, "I'm

39:23not going to go there." But with the

39:25release of this book,

39:27I just want to ask Robert, what do you

39:30think happens when we die?

39:33Well, I don't know. You know, I simply

39:36don't know. Um, I find it hard to

39:39believe that there is like an afterlife

39:43that is how we imagine it, where there's

39:46a a hell and a heaven or we're meeting

39:49our ancestors, our pets, and all of that

39:52stuff. I have a hard time

39:54believing in that because I've always

39:56been kind of a hardcore realist and I

40:00don't know and and the sense of not

40:03knowing I think is the most is the point

40:06of it all. I try to say in the in that

40:11chapter on death that we like to talk

40:14about everything. We like to and here I

40:17am talking about everything on your

40:18podcast. We like to talk and analyze

40:21everything. Right. Right.

40:23>> But when you reach that point of death,

40:25there are no more words. You can't

40:27explain it. You don't know what's

40:28happening. It is a total mystery. Right.

40:32And so I don't think anybody can say

40:36that there's an afterlife. Nobody has

40:38come back to tell us that there is an

40:40afterlife. Of the

40:4380 billion human homo sapiens who've

40:46died since we've been a species, I'm

40:47just throwing that number out. Not a

40:49single person has come back and to say

40:51there is an afterlife. We have no

40:54evidence of it. People with near-death

40:56experiences believe they have evidence,

40:59but there is no hardcore evidence that

41:02we can actually point to. So, I'm

41:04agnostic. It could exist. There could be

41:07some form of afterlife where I get to

41:11see my cat who died in the '9s and I get

41:14reunited with him and I see my father

41:16again.

41:18Or more likely it is the end of all

41:21things. But there is a sense of death is

41:26actually transcendent because

41:29before you were born you were

41:32essentially dead, right? You didn't

41:34exist. And coming into life is like

41:38coming out of death when you were born.

41:40Okay? And so it's a cycle. Nothing

41:43lasts. Everything lives and then dies.

41:46And your dying is part of that cycle.

41:48And it's part of something universal.

41:51It's part of something cosmic that's

41:53been going. Stars and sky die. And so

41:56you're actually a part of some something

41:59tremendous and huge. And

42:03one thing that I experienced in my

42:05near-death uh experience that I don't

42:08talk a lot about is this feeling that

42:11death is this power like probably one of

42:14the most immense powers in the universe.

42:18And for a moment that power is inside of

42:21you

42:22and it feels very strange and different

42:25than anything else. And so

42:29I have more questions than I have

42:31answers about something like the

42:32afterlife. But um I guess I'd have to

42:35say I I don't know. And and I will die

42:38not knowing. And maybe I'll come back

42:41and tell you on on a future podcast, but

42:44I at the moment I really still don't

42:46know. I like to say that um you know

42:51there's some people who say, "Oh,

42:52there's no such thing. You die. Okay.

42:54So, but h how how did how do they know?

42:56How does anybody know? You mentioned

43:00seeing your cat and your father. What do

43:02you hope happens when you die?

43:05Well, it it would be great to to to be,

43:09you know, I don't think if there was

43:11such a thing where you do see these

43:13people and in the near-death experiences

43:15like Pamela Lowry Reynolds,

43:18um, she actually saw like her her uncle

43:21Jean who she loved who had died and her

43:23grandmother and her mother and all these

43:25other things, but it's not like she saw

43:28them in paradise or heaven. They were

43:30like weird spirits. They were like beams

43:32of light that were like communicating to

43:35her without saying anything. Maybe

43:38there's something like that where

43:41the energy that was my father I somehow

43:45re-enounter

43:46would be amazing. I mean I I you know I

43:49miss my father deeply. You know it was

43:51very of the worst experiences of my life

43:54that everyone goes through most everyone

43:56does with the death of their parent.

43:58It's it's it's traumatic. It would be

44:02would be fantastic to somehow be

44:04reunited with that spirit, you know, but

44:08what one wishes isn't necessarily what

44:10happens, you know, but and it would be

44:13great to see my cat Boris, who was my

44:17cat in the '9s, who was there when I

44:19wrote the 48 Laws of Power. My

44:21girlfriend had to build a special table

44:23for me because that cat was so attached

44:26to me that he would never let me work.

44:29He was always on top of the computer.

44:31She built this special table that he

44:33couldn't get on so I could write the 48

44:36laws of power. But of course, he did

44:38manage to get on. Anyway,

44:41he's wrapped up in all of these

44:43cherished memories of mine. It would be

44:45wonderful to see Boris again as well.

44:48>> I know this might be a similar answer,

44:50but what do you feel like deja vu is?

44:55You know, there's a lot of people have

44:57tried to explain it and Jung tried to

44:59explain it um with a sense of

45:02simultaneity

45:04as if our sense of linear time is

45:06incorrect and that things can happen at

45:08the same time. And so you're

45:10experiencing the past as if it's the

45:12present.

45:14But the thing about a deja vu is it's

45:17what I call the uncanny.

45:20So,

45:21it's this passing sensation

45:25that you know this experience before

45:27that it happened before, right? But you

45:30can't quite seize it. You can't quite

45:32grasp it. It like it's like something

45:34that just eludes your it's in your hand

45:36and then it's gone. And what was that?

45:40So what it was the feeling was of

45:44something kind of familiar

45:47like you remember that moment but then

45:50it's gone and that sense of something

45:53being familiar but unfamiliar at the

45:56same time is the uncanny is what makes

45:59it so powerful and dreams are very much

46:03like the uncanny. Dreams are kind of

46:05like a deja vu.

46:08The only thing I could say about it is I

46:11try to explode in my book some of our

46:15hard-h

46:27the past can become the present and the

46:30future can become the present. It's a

46:32strange power that the brain has, but we

46:35don't see it. We don't understand it.

46:36And it's very rare that it occurs, but

46:39it shakes up our concept that time is

46:41just this arrow from the past to the

46:44present to the future, on and on and on.

46:47And so deja vu is like that kind of

46:50sensation like the past and the present

46:54are almost the same. You know, you kind

46:58of mentioned this earlier, uh, that we

47:01live in a fake world, but

47:04do you think we

47:06might literally live in a simulation?

47:09No, I don't I don't go that far. I know

47:11some people believe that like it's

47:15something from aliens who are beaming

47:18this or some kind of inorganic thing

47:20that is projecting the world that we're

47:22seeing. [gasps]

47:24No, I I I think there's a more rational

47:28explanation for it, which is basically

47:32the human brain constructs,

47:35our world constructs a reality for us,

47:39protects us in many ways. So, Aldos

47:43Huxley

47:44in his book Thors of Perception, he

47:47calls it big mind. And so

47:51small mind is the brain is trying to

47:54control what you see because if your

47:56brain let in all the visual stimuli, you

47:59would go crazy. There's too much. So it

48:02tries to narrow things down so that you

48:05don't have all this happening at once.

48:08It's also trying to protect you. And so

48:11if you'll notice like if you meditate or

48:13anything, your thoughts tend to

48:15constantly circle around the same things

48:17over and over and over again. The brain

48:20is constantly repeating things to you to

48:22give you a sense of comfort to slow

48:24things down to make things easy and

48:26digestible for you.

48:29When you take drugs and how those huskly

48:32talks about this like measculine or

48:35Iawasa or LSD

48:38that narrowness that brain mechanism

48:41suddenly opens and you're starting to

48:43see the world as it is and if you've

48:45ever done a hallucinogenic drug and I

48:48did a fair amount of it in my early 20s

48:51you have that sensation. You're starting

48:54to see the world as it actually is. It's

48:55an incredible experience. You're not

48:58hallucinating. You're actually seeing

49:00the world as it is when the brain isn't

49:02filtering everything. And so the fake

49:05simulation part is the fact that the

49:07brain filters everything for you and

49:10gives you constructs the world that you

49:12take for granted and it's not the real

49:15world. And when you go through a

49:18near-death experience

49:20or you take an hallucinogenic drug or

49:23you go deeply into the sublime, as I try

49:25and allow you to in the book, because

49:28the book gives you exercises to go into

49:30it, you're getting rid of all that

49:32filtering and you're seeing what's

49:34outside of the simulation.

49:37I compare it to a circle and inside that

49:39circle is the simulated world that we

49:42live in. a world of language, of words,

49:44of social conventions, of codes and and

49:47and other things. The sublime is

49:50everything outside that simulation,

49:52everything outside that circle. And when

49:54you touch it, it shakes you up and it

49:57and it can literally change you. It can

49:59really transform you.

50:01>> Right. Would you consider like a dja vu

50:03experience to be within the sublime uh

50:06dreams? I know you've given the

50:08comparison of like looking at some

50:11grandeur mountain and feeling a sense of

50:13awe, but like would those things be

50:16outside of the circle? It's a very good

50:19question. The thing about deja vu is

50:22what's so maddening about is it's just

50:23like a sense for like two seconds, maybe

50:27even less than a second passes through

50:29your your brain, your consciousness. And

50:32often

50:34the sublime I tell people and I have

50:37talk about in the introduction to the

50:39book is similar for just a few seconds

50:43you sense what that what the world is as

50:45it is perhaps something from childhood

50:48comes back to you or you look at an

50:50animal and suddenly you you you're aware

50:52of of this other reality that it has or

50:56or things strike you as strange

50:58>> because normally you walk around and

51:00everything is familiar. here and you

51:02don't pay attention and suddenly

51:05something feels strange. It feels out of

51:07place in this world and it's like a deja

51:09vu. It's it's so elusive. It only

51:11happens for a couple seconds

51:13>> and then you forget about it and I want

51:16to be able to hold on to such moments.

51:19Um you know we have things called

51:22involuntary memories. So we don't

51:26remember

51:27many things before we learn language as

51:30I said earlier like when you're 2 years

51:32old or even before that because we don't

51:36have words to describe them but

51:38sometimes

51:40a smell will bring back a memory from

51:43very early childhood

51:46and it's so fleeting and you can't

51:47connect the smell but you know that it's

51:50something familiar right and you if you

51:54go deep enough into it and you have this

51:55happen often enough, you can capture

51:58some of the feeling of childhood, not

52:01the thought of it, but the actual

52:03feeling. Cuz that smell actually has

52:06that inside of it, the the actual

52:08experience that you had, right? I

52:12sometimes smell things that like bring

52:14me back to my childhood. And I used to

52:16think that it was me remembering my

52:21childhood and like being like, "Oh, I

52:22was so happy I was a kid. I didn't have

52:24problems. But is it more so I'm putting

52:26myself in the state that I was when I

52:28was a child where I'm seeing the world

52:31for what it really is? Like how do you

52:33view that? There's a famous story of the

52:36writer Marcel P. He was obsessed with

52:39involuntary memories because he viewed

52:42his childhood as this paradise that he

52:44was forever separated from. Now I don't

52:46want to give the impression that

52:48childhood is pure paradise.

52:50All of us had fears. Some of us had

52:53traumas and abuse, but there was

52:55generally something intense about it.

52:58I'll say that childhood was very

53:00intense, much more so than our adult

53:03life. And so he was obsessed with it.

53:06And he had he describes in his novel of

53:10they had this biscuit in France that

53:12people eat a lot called a meline. It's

53:15like a little cookie and you dip it in

53:17tea and then you eat it. and he's like

53:21in his 30s and he dips the tea and he

53:24eats it and suddenly

53:27the memory of when he was four or 5

53:30years old and he first tasted the Meline

53:33comes back to him and it's alive and he

53:36experiences it as if he were there,

53:38right? And it's very very intense. So to

53:43answer your question, the actual

53:45physical sensation is what's triggering

53:48it. It's not like you can consciously

53:52go, I'm going to remember what that

53:55thing tasted like because you won't be

53:57able to. It comes unconsciously and it's

54:00embedded in objects. So your childhood

54:03and that kind of exciting intense

54:06feeling is not just bunch of thoughts.

54:10It was in colors, it was in smells, it

54:12was in tastes, it was in motion, how the

54:15world looked, right? And when you get

54:18back into those physical concrete

54:20things, childhood comes back to you not

54:23as a thought, but as actually something

54:26you're living through. And it's very

54:27exciting, right? We often don't remember

54:30our oldest thoughts in the first place.

54:33We remember like settings, tastes,

54:35smells.

54:35>> Can you remember your earliest childhood

54:37memory? Cuz you're not that you're

54:38you're still quite young.

54:40>> Yeah, I can. Uh it

54:45it was uh at Disney World in Florida,

54:49>> I think.

54:51>> I don't know if you know Buzz Lightyear,

54:52but there was like this Buzz Lightyear

54:54game. I remember playing it, but

54:56I'd say that's probably the earliest

54:58thing I remember. What?

54:58>> How old were you?

54:59>> I think I was four. Yeah.

55:01>> Uhhuh.

55:02>> So,

55:03uh don't really have anything before

55:05that.

55:06>> Uh-huh.

55:06>> How about you? Do you remember your

55:08earliest? Well, my earliest childhood

55:11memory is with I'm playing with my

55:13childhood friend. I remember his name.

55:15And we were like

55:17walking around an abandoned building. I

55:19must have been like four years old.

55:22In those days, your parents were four

55:24years old. They wouldn't let you go do

55:25things like that, right? Um, and I

55:29remember like the shadows and the

55:32darkness kind of like scaring me and how

55:35weird it was. this abandoned building in

55:38all the shadows. That's like my earliest

55:40memory.

55:41>> That's a funny one. Abandoned building

55:43when you're four years old. Um, you've

55:46kind of danced around this concept, but

55:49what can you learn by looking into your

55:52pet's eyes?

55:53>> I mean, most people I I don't know. I

55:55don't know the percentage have like a

55:57dog or a cat or a bird or something. And

56:02first of all um like a cat

56:06um is not completely domesticated right

56:09and they are related DNA genetically

56:13very much to large cats right and to the

56:18cats that we know from millions of years

56:21ago. I don't know the exact date of the

56:23age of how long cats have been around,

56:26but you're when you look at the eye and

56:29you look at it and you try and go inside

56:31it and because I have cats and it's

56:33spirit, you're looking at something that

56:35is pretty much the same as it was

56:38millions of years ago. A consciousness

56:41that predates human beings, predates

56:43many, many things. And it's very

56:46exciting, strange thing to confront

56:48something so old. human beings we can't

56:52say the same thing for I mean they're

56:53primates but primates haven't been

56:55around as long as at least the

56:58chimpanzees and gorilla as long as as

57:01large cats

57:05when you look into the dog's eyes you're

57:07seeing a wolf right they're descended

57:10from wolves and like when a dog licks

57:14your face that is actually wolf behavior

57:18because The pups of wolves would lick

57:21their mother's mouth until it would

57:23vomit food into its mouth. And so it's

57:26literally recreating behavior from

57:28wolves. And dogs live in a world of

57:31smell, of scent. So what you're doing

57:33when you're looking into their eyes is

57:35you're seeing that what we're talking

57:37about. Our world is constructed by our

57:40brains. Their world is a very different

57:43reality.

57:45So if you look a cat, everything is

57:48motion and movement. That's how it

57:50hunts. It's constantly aware of motion,

57:54right? It's obsessed with it. Okay,

57:56that's a different way of looking at the

57:59world than what we normally have. Dogs

58:02live in a world of smell and scent. That

58:05is their intelligence.

58:07We think we're so intelligent, but we

58:09can't know what a dog knows about.

58:12Somebody comes into a room, they can

58:14smell the chemicals on their shoes,

58:16where they came from, the direction, you

58:18know, they can sense your emotions from

58:21these chemicals that you're these things

58:23that you're emitting, right? They have

58:25this uncanny sense. You're confronting

58:28an intelligence that is different from

58:31your own that goes back thousands,

58:33millions, tens of millions of years. And

58:37it should make you totally in feeling of

58:40awe that you're surrounded by these

58:42things that you can that we're human.

58:46We have our own weird brains, but that

58:47we can put ourselves inside of the world

58:49of a cat or a dog or a bird or a bat or

58:53a spider. You know,

58:57if you went around looking at the world

58:59that way, it would change a lot of your

59:02consciousness. You would feel much

59:03differently if you just looked at a

59:05squirrel and started having these chain

59:07of thoughts or a butterfly. You know,

59:11butterflies are absolutely insane if you

59:13thought about what happens. But we don't

59:17that's that's our that's how we need to

59:19wake up. That's the simulation. We're

59:20not experiencing this even with our own

59:23pets,

59:23>> right? We just look at a dog and think

59:26dog or cat. We think cat.

59:29>> You know what we do is we turn them into

59:30humans. We anthropomorphize them. We

59:33think that they're just feeling and

59:34thinking the same things we are. And I'm

59:37trying to say try and get into their

59:39world, into their reality. And I have a

59:41whole chapter. I go into like 12

59:44different kinds of animals and what

59:46their worlds are like. Like hawks, you

59:49know, I have a story of a hawk and their

59:51world is sane.

59:54>> High predators like that or dolphins and

59:56whales or wolves.

59:59We like to look at science fiction

1:00:01movies with space aliens,

1:00:03but we're surrounded by space aliens.

1:00:07Snails, spiders, elephants, they're all

1:00:11aliens and they have a very different

1:00:14reality than our own. Right. Before this

1:00:16interview, we talked a tiny bit about

1:00:19social media and uh we'd gone to a

1:00:23philosophy event together recently where

1:00:26you had

1:00:27talked about the concept of brain rot.

1:00:29Uh how is social media making us dumber?

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1:01:39recoveries. But anyway, guys, back to

1:01:42the podcast.

1:01:46How is social media making us dumber?

1:01:49And do you think brain rot is a real

1:01:52disease? I've noticed it in myself. So

1:01:57if I can notice something in myself, I

1:01:59don't have to feel like I'm superior to

1:02:01everyone else. And it makes me

1:02:03understand what people are going

1:02:04through. And I've noticed in myself

1:02:08levels of distraction that I didn't have

1:02:12before. And so I I for instance

1:02:16Instagram.

1:02:18Now only in the last three or four years

1:02:20have I started really paying attention

1:02:22to Instagram.

1:02:23And the feed

1:02:26is is unbelievable.

1:02:28You know, these videos are are

1:02:30addicting. They're they're amazing.

1:02:32animals, comedians, you know, exercises

1:02:36that you didn't know about, things like

1:02:37that, products,

1:02:40and you get addicted and you watch more

1:02:43and more of them, and it cuts off your

1:02:45ability to focus deeply on something

1:02:47because your mind is split up into 30

1:02:49second little bits here and there and

1:02:51there and there and there. And I

1:02:54realized [clears throat] the reason it

1:02:55works is because it operates on your

1:02:58emotions. It's not a conscious cognitive

1:03:02thing. They know how to operate on your

1:03:04emotions. They know what hooks you,

1:03:06things that are pleasant, things that

1:03:08are entertaining, things that are make

1:03:10you angry, things that are informing you

1:03:12of something that you never thought of

1:03:14before. They hit your emotions and they

1:03:17hit the most vital emotion of all, which

1:03:19is loneliness.

1:03:21>> You feel like you're a part of

1:03:23something. You're not so alone, right?

1:03:26Okay. You're in some kind of virtual

1:03:28community.

1:03:29But the human brain was designed for

1:03:33focus. That's our power. That is our

1:03:36superpower.

1:03:38It's what made us who we are. The fact

1:03:40that unlike an animal,

1:03:43and I believe me, I think animals are

1:03:44incredibly intelligent. But they're

1:03:47always distracted. They're always

1:03:49looking around. Where's the predator

1:03:50coming next? When am I going to get

1:03:52eaten? You know, how do I protect

1:03:54myself? Where do I get food? We develop

1:03:57the ability to be able to be safe first

1:04:00of all and then to focus deeply on

1:04:02things like a rock that we can now turn

1:04:05into a weapon or a tool. Right? Our

1:04:08brains developed out of our ability to

1:04:11focus without distractions for a minute,

1:04:14for 2 minutes, for 5 minutes, for 30

1:04:16minutes. When our ancestors tracked

1:04:20large game in order to hunt and kill

1:04:22them, they had to focus for hours and

1:04:25days tracking that game. That's what

1:04:27developed the human brain. That's how

1:04:30we're able to write books, create music,

1:04:33design buildings that don't fall down,

1:04:35build things, create things that are

1:04:38beautiful, that are useful.

1:04:41These constant distractions,

1:04:43these constant sense of what are other

1:04:47people doing that I'm not doing, what am

1:04:49I missing is continually breaking that

1:04:53focus. It's like a a circuit. The

1:04:55circuit is being shortcircuited,

1:04:58you know, 20 times in the space of a

1:05:01couple minutes. Whereas if that 2

1:05:03minutes where you're like getting all

1:05:05these little bits of feedings from your

1:05:07social media, if you were to take those

1:05:09two minutes and focus on a problem,

1:05:11focus on yourself, focus on your life,

1:05:14something very different would be

1:05:15happening. So it is literally

1:05:17deteriorating our brains.

1:05:20>> It is literally diminishing and

1:05:22neutralizing the power of the human

1:05:25brain. And I don't say that from a

1:05:27position of superiority and judgment

1:05:29because I see it in myself. I see it and

1:05:32I understand it very deeply and it's

1:05:35very human and these people who are

1:05:38programming us and they are literally

1:05:41people who are programming us with their

1:05:42algorithms they understand the power

1:05:45that this has they know what they can do

1:05:48with it and they're completely have no

1:05:51consciousness about conscientiousness

1:05:53about it. They take no responsibility

1:05:56for what they're doing to young people

1:05:57with their in their brains and how young

1:06:00people can't read a book anymore. They

1:06:02can't go through a 300page book because

1:06:04it's too long and they're too

1:06:06distracted, right? They can't write an

1:06:09essay anymore because, well, they can

1:06:10get AI now to write the essay for them.

1:06:12But, and once again, I'm not preaching.

1:06:15I understand it. If I were 20 years old

1:06:18and growing up in this world, I would be

1:06:20like that. And it's already infecting

1:06:22me. But it is rotting our brains. And

1:06:26anybody who argues against that, I I

1:06:28don't know. I mean, the evidence I think

1:06:30is overwhelming that this is actually

1:06:33happening. But I wrote in my book,

1:06:35Mastery,

1:06:37literally, it's a manual about how the

1:06:39human brain operates. And it's based on

1:06:41on science and studies. And I'm showing

1:06:44you that this is the brain that we all

1:06:46inherited. And we are literally now in

1:06:50the process of trying to rewire our

1:06:52brains in a way that is not human, is

1:06:54not effective, is not powerful. H and

1:07:00as far as the mechanism that makes us

1:07:04distracted and kind of takes us away

1:07:06from our roots of being able to focus on

1:07:08problems for an extended period of time.

1:07:11Is it just we're not built to experience

1:07:15all these different emotions back to

1:07:17back so quickly or is it all these

1:07:19different novel dopamine stimuli? Like

1:07:22what is it exactly? Well, as I said,

1:07:27it's emotionbased.

1:07:29So, if it were just thoughts and ideas,

1:07:32if they were just posts about Plato and

1:07:36Nietze and philosophy and, you know, all

1:07:40that stuff wouldn't have the power that

1:07:42it has. We'd be able to control it. In

1:07:44fact, we probably wouldn't be very

1:07:45interested in it. But because it plays

1:07:48on our emotions,

1:07:51we have to pay attention and because we

1:07:54are we think of ourselves as rational

1:07:56beings, but we are really emotional

1:07:58beings to the core and we have very deep

1:08:02rich emotions and they play on those

1:08:04emotions. And when you get something

1:08:06that excites you, you see on your feed

1:08:10something that excites you, you can't

1:08:13ignore it.

1:08:14>> And and and it becomes an addiction. you

1:08:16go down this hole. So, so people are

1:08:18getting addicted to like experiencing a

1:08:20bunch of emotions essentially. I guess

1:08:23you could put it that way. They're

1:08:25addicted to the experience of being

1:08:28taken outside of their day-to-day life

1:08:31and into this alternate realm where

1:08:34everything is interesting,

1:08:35>> right?

1:08:36>> Okay. So, I love animals. That's like

1:08:39one of my passions. And I see I don't

1:08:41really do Tik Tok, so I'm mostly on

1:08:43Instagram and and I know there's a whole

1:08:45bunch of other things that people are

1:08:47Instagram's kind of pass probably, but

1:08:50um I noticed there's like things about

1:08:53elephants or about tigers.

1:08:57Gee, I can't ignore that. They're so

1:08:59well done. They're so interesting that I

1:09:01have to watch it. Right. And then now

1:09:04that I've watched one of them, now 10 of

1:09:07them suddenly appear. They flood. I

1:09:10noticed like I started I'm trying to

1:09:12like get my posture better because of my

1:09:14stroke. I saw one uh of post about how

1:09:19to correct your your shoulders and

1:09:21loosen them up and now hundreds of them

1:09:24and I have to watch them because I'm

1:09:25something I'm interested in. They know

1:09:28how to hook you. They know how to you're

1:09:30addicted to the experience of social

1:09:32media itself of being entertained,

1:09:35diverted, distracted. I I think that's

1:09:38the source of it and that itself is kind

1:09:41of like can be a fake version of the

1:09:44real thing sometimes like watching a

1:09:47video of an animal versus like seeing

1:09:48the animal in person like you're getting

1:09:50well yeah I mean it is exciting it is

1:09:53interesting I am learning about some

1:09:56things but it's not the same thing as

1:09:59reading a book it's not the same thing

1:10:01as thinking about it and so

1:10:04yeah I'm learning exercises to help my

1:10:07shoulders and back. But I could have

1:10:10gotten that from a physical therapist or

1:10:12I could have seen one video, but now

1:10:15that there are hundreds of them and I'm

1:10:16like hooked on it and I'm trying to see

1:10:18if there's something better, I'm like

1:10:20drawn into this other world. This world

1:10:22that they have created for me, right?

1:10:25It's not my world. The point I'm trying

1:10:28to do in the law of the sublime is stop

1:10:32being programmed.

1:10:34have experiences that are completely

1:10:36your own. So if you go and hike up a

1:10:40mountain and you leave your phone behind

1:10:43and you're just interacting with the sky

1:10:46with, you know, the the view all around

1:10:49you. It is your experience. Nobody's

1:10:52programming it for you. Nobody's in your

1:10:55ear telling you what you should think,

1:10:57what's interesting, what's exciting

1:10:58about it. I want you to get out of this

1:11:01world that's being programmed. get out

1:11:03of the algorithms and into your own

1:11:05brain and into your own world, which is

1:11:07to me more exciting than all the feeds

1:11:10that they're actually giving you. It's

1:11:12kind of like a sugar high. It's like

1:11:14eating, you know, it's eating like

1:11:16sugared cereal after a while, right? In

1:11:20chapter one, you tell a story about a

1:11:22rich man whose life feels empty but all.

1:11:26And after months of therapy sessions,

1:11:28the only thing that makes him feel

1:11:29better is climbing I think it's the

1:11:31tallest mountain in the Americas. Uh

1:11:34with his therapist and the whole

1:11:37experience nearly kills him, but

1:11:41he eventually felt better like his life

1:11:44wasn't so benol anymore.

1:11:46Jinzy goes to therapy more than any

1:11:49other previous generation,

1:11:51but

1:11:53Jinzie struggles with pretty much every

1:11:55mental health ailment more than every

1:11:57generation.

1:11:59>> Do you think modern therapy is making

1:12:02this generation worse? Like why does

1:12:05your brain need pressure?

1:12:07>> Well, some uh there's a famous uh

1:12:09psychologist named James Hillman. He

1:12:11thinks that and he's a psychotherapist.

1:12:13Do you think psychotherapy is making

1:12:15people sick? Um, I don't know if I'd go

1:12:18that far, but what I'm trying to talk

1:12:20about in that chapter is that we live in

1:12:24a world of words, of language, and

1:12:28talking about things just imshes us

1:12:32deeper and deeper and deeper into that

1:12:34world of symbols and words and language

1:12:36and into ourselves. So, if I'm in

1:12:38therapy and I talk about myself and my

1:12:41childhood and my mother and what I went

1:12:44through when I was 7 years old and all

1:12:47the terrible things in high school and

1:12:48how people bullied me, all I'm doing is

1:12:52I'm getting further deeper and deeper,

1:12:53deeper imshed into me, into myself, into

1:12:56my world, into my problems. And what I'm

1:12:59trying to say in that chapter is the

1:13:01best therapy is to be taken outside of

1:13:04yourself. is to be taken outside of that

1:13:07narrowing little ego and I with all of

1:13:10your traumas and all of your pain which

1:13:12we all have had from our own childhoods

1:13:14and from our own early experiences,

1:13:16right? We live in a world that's cosmic,

1:13:20right? That's that's insane that we live

1:13:23in in a universe with planets and stars

1:13:26and science has told us the whole story

1:13:28of that. And we live in this insane

1:13:31landscape of mountains and oceans and

1:13:35deserts, right? It's just visually and

1:13:38and emotionally and it's just so

1:13:40stirring and beautiful. And to be taken

1:13:44into that kind of world outside and and

1:13:47to experience kind of the most primal

1:13:50landscapes and the most primal

1:13:52experiences

1:13:54has to me greater power over you than

1:13:56all the talking talking talking about me

1:13:59me my problems my problems my problems

1:14:01just get deeper and deeper and deeper

1:14:03into your hole and I'm trying to take

1:14:05you out of that hole into something

1:14:07large and and vast and in that story the

1:14:11therapist had a man who had a wonderful

1:14:15wife, a great job, loving children. He

1:14:19had all the cars that he wanted, a

1:14:21beautiful house. He felt something

1:14:23missing. He felt something empty. And

1:14:25that's why he turned to therapy. And the

1:14:27therapist after point just felt like

1:14:30they were going in circles and it just

1:14:32wasn't going anywhere. And he finally

1:14:34he's had the idea that they were going

1:14:36to train together and climb the tallest

1:14:38mountain in the Western Hemisphere. a

1:14:41very difficult climb that could possibly

1:14:43kill you. And exposing himself to the

1:14:45dangers of nearly dying, of the wind, of

1:14:49the storms, of the height of this

1:14:50mountain, of the age of it, of the stars

1:14:53in the sky.

1:14:55He was taken out of his the benalities

1:14:57of his life and he was totally stirred

1:14:59and transformed.

1:15:01And I'm not saying that's for everyone.

1:15:03I'm sure therapy can have some value,

1:15:07but I'm just worried that people are so

1:15:10are getting deeper and deeper into their

1:15:12self-absorption

1:15:13and that therapy in some ways is kind of

1:15:16exacerbating that and then what you

1:15:18need. And what religion used to give

1:15:21people was a sense of the transcendent

1:15:23of something much larger than you, much

1:15:27larger than your problems. And that can

1:15:30really really heal some of the wounds

1:15:32that you have.

1:15:33>> Right. Which part of the mountain

1:15:36experience was the thing that made him

1:15:39better? Do you think it was like the awe

1:15:41the climb itself? Do you think it was

1:15:42like the pressure of death? Well, first

1:15:45of all, um, they stopped talking.

1:15:48>> The therapy was no longer talking. It

1:15:50was training. It was, you know, running,

1:15:53hiking, and getting ready for it. So in

1:15:56that his mind is taken outside of all of

1:15:58his problems and all of his feelings of

1:16:00emptiness. And then you're climbing up a

1:16:04mountain and and as you climb a

1:16:06mountain,

1:16:08if you don't have your tech, your

1:16:10smartphone with you and if you're not

1:16:11talking,

1:16:13you're feeling the elements.

1:16:16You can't help it. You're feeling the

1:16:17cold air. You're feeling the the ground

1:16:20that's full of rocks that the path isn't

1:16:23smooth, right? You're feeling the

1:16:25changes in temperature as you go higher

1:16:27and higher and higher. Your senses are

1:16:30opening up to this world that is filled

1:16:33with all sorts of things to look at and

1:16:35to feel. You're becoming like a bird as

1:16:38you almost like flying in the air.

1:16:40You're getting higher and higher higher.

1:16:41This is a mountain that's I don't know

1:16:45about 19,000 ft high. They were trying

1:16:48to get to the summit and I think they

1:16:50got to maybe 14 15,000. You get to that

1:16:53height, the oxygen level is changing. If

1:16:56you've ever been in an environment where

1:16:57there's less, the oxygen is thinner. It

1:17:00has a strange effect on your brain.

1:17:02>> It was a physical experience that was

1:17:05transformative and a physical experience

1:17:07that transforms you, transforms your

1:17:09emotions, transforms your thoughts,

1:17:11transforms your moods. I think that's

1:17:13what it was is it was a complete

1:17:15immersive ex experience.

1:17:19>> That's fascinating. It reminds me of uh

1:17:22for her birthday, she wanted to

1:17:25>> go on a nature retreat.

1:17:27>> Um and I had a good place picked out,

1:17:31but I wanted her to wake up in nature

1:17:33the day before. So I booked two

1:17:35locations. Surprise.

1:17:38>> Uh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh so the

1:17:41second one was like some farm with a

1:17:43bunch of animals. Very nice uh family

1:17:45that lived there. And then the first one

1:17:47I went to like this place really high up

1:17:50in the woods. I can't remember what part

1:17:52of California it was in, but there was

1:17:56like electric fence all around it and

1:17:58they had bear spray there. And it was

1:18:01like black bears everywhere. Um I think

1:18:03they said there was even brown bears or

1:18:05something. You saw them

1:18:06>> and we didn't see any. But it would we

1:18:08we get there at like 11:00 p.m. at night

1:18:10and we were just terrified. We had to

1:18:12walk up this huge staircase and

1:18:14>> I was like,

1:18:15>> I am so sorry. This is the dumbest thing

1:18:17I've ever done. This is the most

1:18:18stressful situation. But when I look

1:18:20back at it, I I really enjoyed that

1:18:23experience because it was like

1:18:25>> we're so afraid of a bear killing us.

1:18:27Like we feel like we're living again in

1:18:29that moment. But um

1:18:30>> yeah, I just it reminded me of that. But

1:18:33>> yeah,

1:18:34>> in chapter 7, you write about love.

1:18:37>> Yeah. saying, "The most powerful zone of

1:18:40the sublime is the quote dissolving of

1:18:43boundaries between two people, the

1:18:45fusion of two bodies and souls."

1:18:49Why do you think this generation

1:18:52struggles to actually love another

1:18:54person?

1:18:55Well, it's hard for me to say because

1:18:58I'm not of your generation. I'm speaking

1:19:01of your because it is your generation.

1:19:03Um, so everything that I have is from

1:19:07the outside and is comes from what I

1:19:10read and what people tell me. So it's

1:19:11not something I feel, but I I try and

1:19:14put myself in your place. And I think um

1:19:18the insecurities that you feel about the

1:19:21world and about the future and about how

1:19:24hard life can be and how maybe you can't

1:19:28get a home and you can't get this and

1:19:31that other things and you don't feel

1:19:32secure about your career and your job

1:19:35makes you feel very vulnerable. Makes

1:19:37you feel very insecure.

1:19:40And a relationship with another person

1:19:44is opening yourself up to the

1:19:46possibility of being hurt, of being

1:19:49vulnerable, of the other person leaving

1:19:51you. Uh the other night I had this dream

1:19:57of being like left and I think it was by

1:20:01like my wife or somebody like that. And

1:20:04I was like waking up and I was almost

1:20:06like crying. It was such a powerful

1:20:07nightmare and it made me feel like the

1:20:10sense of abandonment is probably the

1:20:12worst feeling that a human could sense

1:20:15of being alone. It's like being like

1:20:17dying. So, a lot of young people want to

1:20:21build a wall inside of themselves where

1:20:23they don't have to feel anything. They

1:20:25don't have to experience pain and trauma

1:20:27and being hurt and being vulnerable.

1:20:30They want like, you know, those kind of

1:20:32relationships where they can find people

1:20:34for a date, maybe for some sex, etc., or

1:20:37maybe a relationship for a few months.

1:20:40But as the relationship deepens

1:20:42and you get closer to someone, the

1:20:45possibility comes up that they could

1:20:47leave you.

1:20:48>> And the longer you get involved with

1:20:50someone, the more painful that is. And

1:20:53so if you just do the marketplace

1:20:55version of loveum dum dum dum dum, you

1:20:59don't have to have to go through that.

1:21:00You don't have to feel, yeah, it might

1:21:02hurt a little bit after a couple months

1:21:04they break up, but it's not like being

1:21:06with someone for 2, three, four, five

1:21:08years and breaking up, but that's very

1:21:10painful, right? So I think people don't

1:21:14want to go through that. And I say in

1:21:16the book that

1:21:18we use the language falling in love. And

1:21:22it's a really beautiful metaphor. And to

1:21:24me it's like you're here and you start

1:21:26falling and falling and falling. And the

1:21:28deeper you fall, if you fall all the

1:21:31way, what is all the way? All the way is

1:21:34that sense of kind of fusion with the

1:21:37other person where you're so deeply in

1:21:39love with them that the boundaries

1:21:41between you disappear. And it's not

1:21:44forever. It's just at moments, but you

1:21:45fall that deeply. All right, but what

1:21:49happens is you fall a little bit and you

1:21:52get worried. Uh-oh, I could get hurt.

1:21:54All right, I'm not going I'm going to

1:21:55stop falling. I'm going to find someone

1:21:57else. Because you're addicted to the

1:21:58feeling of love of the first few months

1:22:02cuz that's what you want over and over

1:22:04and over again. But you won't let

1:22:06yourself fall far enough to go deep

1:22:08enough into that love experience. And

1:22:12the reason I think that it's such a

1:22:14powerful experience is that

1:22:18the human animal is a strange creation.

1:22:20We're like a hybrid. We're like part

1:22:23animal, part human. We have very

1:22:26physical sensations. We have very

1:22:29powerful sexual desires and attractions.

1:22:32But we also are psychological and

1:22:34spiritual. We want something larger in

1:22:37life. We want something kind of

1:22:38transcendent. It's the source of all

1:22:40religions.

1:22:42But religion doesn't give us that

1:22:44powerful physical sensation. And that

1:22:47physical sensation doesn't give us that

1:22:49kind of powerful spiritual sensation of

1:22:52being attuned to connected deeply.

1:22:55Love is combines the two of them and

1:22:57it's deeply satisfying for the human

1:23:00animal. It combines the physical, the

1:23:03physical attraction, the the closeness,

1:23:05the intimacy that the physical brings

1:23:08with something spiritual and deeper and

1:23:11an actual sense of love that is deeper

1:23:13that transcends your your your

1:23:15individuality, your yourself and your

1:23:17self-absorption. I say it's like

1:23:19escaping from the prison of the ego. And

1:23:22I feel it's what everybody wants. But if

1:23:24you won't allow yourself to fall,

1:23:27you're going to be trapped in your ego

1:23:29for the rest of your life. And to

1:23:31understand

1:23:34how important that particular experience

1:23:36is,

1:23:38I kind of wanted to tie this to a study

1:23:42from last year. It said one in three

1:23:44young men have chatted with an AI built

1:23:48to act like a romantic partner.

1:23:50>> Yeah. When you think about the future of

1:23:52AI,

1:23:54do you think

1:23:56humans can fall in love with a machine?

1:23:58And like why is it so important to love

1:24:03a real person? You kind of said the ego

1:24:04dissolving, but I'd love your thoughts

1:24:06on this. Well, as far as I know, you

1:24:08can't have sex with an AI bot. Not yet,

1:24:12at least. You know, they haven't gotten

1:24:13that far. And if they get that far, then

1:24:16then all bets are off. But

1:24:19it's only titillating you and it's

1:24:22frustrating. I mean, I don't know about

1:24:25young men today, but when I was young,

1:24:28you wanted the physicality, right? Your

1:24:31hormones were churning like crazy, you

1:24:34wanted the the the physical touch. You

1:24:37wanted to immerse yourself if you're

1:24:40straight in a woman's body, right? It

1:24:42was very powerful attraction. It was a

1:24:44need that was so powerful, it drove you

1:24:46crazy at times. as those hormones are

1:24:48turnurning up. And so what you're

1:24:50getting from your AI bot is

1:24:53just lots of affirmations and validation

1:24:57and feeling comfortable and secure and

1:25:00and they're telling you all these great

1:25:02things about yourself. And they're

1:25:04mimicking what ideal woman would be

1:25:07like, who never argues with you, who's

1:25:09never who never has a period,

1:25:11who's always like wonderful and warm and

1:25:14sweet.

1:25:15And it it's like such an an illusion

1:25:19that how are you ever in your life going

1:25:21to be able to relate to the physical

1:25:23person when you're just so wrapped up in

1:25:26this little pastry that they're

1:25:29providing for you. It's so frightening.

1:25:31I can't even begin to go there. I mean,

1:25:33I'm sorry. uh I I I'll start to lose my

1:25:35mind if that's what's happening cuz the

1:25:39physical aspect when you're young of of

1:25:43another person of feeling that

1:25:45powerfully is one of the most joyous

1:25:48experiences of your life. You'll you'll

1:25:50never have it you'll never return

1:25:51because as you get older it's not as

1:25:54powerful. But that attraction, that need

1:25:58for the touch, the feel, the warmth of

1:26:00another body,

1:26:02it frightens me. I can't tell you how

1:26:04frightening that is. And and if you if

1:26:06that's going to be the pattern for the

1:26:09rest of your life. Oh god.

1:26:11Fortunately, I'll be dead before this

1:26:13goes this goes too far. How many young

1:26:16men? You said one out of three. Yes.

1:26:19Right. In what age group? So I don't

1:26:23have that age group. I think that was

1:26:24maybe uh 24 and below. But I do know

1:26:28that the most popular age group for

1:26:30people that talk to it like a friend is

1:26:3313 to 17. Well, a friend is a little bit

1:26:36different,

1:26:37>> right?

1:26:37>> Um but even that uh my wife uses AI a

1:26:42lot um for questions like about law and

1:26:45medicine and things.

1:26:47I'm not into it. But I It always is

1:26:50telling her what she wants to hear. And

1:26:53that's what these things do. They're

1:26:54very smart. They know how to do things.

1:26:56These people who create these things are

1:26:58masters of marketing, are masters of

1:27:01human psychology.

1:27:03And they know that if you're going to

1:27:04get addicted to their AI bot, it has to

1:27:06validate you. It has to say things that

1:27:09you want to hear. And it's very

1:27:11addictive because people don't provide

1:27:13that for you in your life. Do your

1:27:16parents ever tell you what you want to

1:27:18hear? Often it's the opposite, right? Or

1:27:20even your friends. So, it's very

1:27:23addicting because you don't get that

1:27:24from other people. But it's also very

1:27:26dangerous.

1:27:28Honestly, I can't imagine like you

1:27:31usually shouldn't tell people that you

1:27:33deeply care about what they want to

1:27:34hear. Like even if you kind of agree

1:27:36with them, like I think the most useful

1:27:38thing to do is take the other side of it

1:27:41to let them really think it out. Uh but

1:27:45on AI

1:27:48do you think AI will kill us all? Well,

1:27:52that's the the doomsday scenario, the

1:27:54kind of singularity where it reaches

1:27:56this point of power that it can destroy

1:27:59us.

1:28:01We're already destroying the planet as

1:28:04it is uh with climate change, with what

1:28:08we're doing to the world, and we're

1:28:10seeing the world

1:28:12burn itself up right now, right? So,

1:28:14we're already destroying the world with

1:28:17our technology. So, that's not what

1:28:19frightens me. Uh I mean, it is

1:28:22frightening, but it's not what

1:28:23particularly frightens me. What

1:28:24frightens me is that we're losing a

1:28:28sense of what it means to be a human

1:28:30being. And so what it means to be a

1:28:35human being is to be flesh and blood and

1:28:38bones and to be involved in things

1:28:40physically and active and encountering

1:28:42the world in a concrete way. What is

1:28:45human is to use our brains in a

1:28:47disciplined fashion to create something

1:28:49beautiful to master a skill. take years

1:28:52and weeks and whatever it takes to

1:28:55design a beautiful building or create a

1:28:57beautiful piece of music or artwork or

1:28:59whatever. These are things that make us

1:29:02human. Also, our spiritual yearnings

1:29:04which are very much a part of us and our

1:29:07relationship to death itself.

1:29:10If you slowly erode that so that a

1:29:14generation arises that doesn't want to

1:29:17read a book, that can't write an essay,

1:29:20that can't go deep enough into thinking,

1:29:22that can't take the time to create

1:29:24something, that doesn't want to be

1:29:26physically involved with someone in a

1:29:29relationship for a long period of time,

1:29:31that doesn't want to get outside and and

1:29:34see like the reality of death and

1:29:37spiritual things. you're no it's not

1:29:38human anymore and it's very frightening

1:29:41and that's more scary to me than all the

1:29:45doomsday scenarios.

1:29:47>> Right. You've talked about how that

1:29:49humans have an internal need for worship

1:29:52and in modern society we put that energy

1:29:56toward celebrities, politicians.

1:30:00Do you think the anthropomorphization of

1:30:03AI is dangerous in that people might put

1:30:08that worship toward artificial

1:30:10intelligence?

1:30:12Yes. I mean, um,

1:30:17yeah, I I I mean, we're already seeing

1:30:20that. Um, but what people worship

1:30:23nowadays is technology itself. That's

1:30:26our religion. And it is a religion

1:30:30because

1:30:31people who believe that technology can

1:30:34solve all of our problems, can solve

1:30:37global warming, can solve warfare and

1:30:41everything else, can solve disease, can

1:30:44do the Peter Teal thing and believe that

1:30:46we can conquer death. You know, that is

1:30:50not based on evidence. That's not based

1:30:52on science. That's based on a wish, a

1:30:54desire, because it feeds the greatest

1:30:57desire of us all. Right? With just

1:31:00magic, with a few brilliant engineers,

1:31:02we can solve all of our problems. That

1:31:05isn't reality. That isn't truth. That is

1:31:07a religion. That is a belief system,

1:31:10right? And that is what people worship.

1:31:14And

1:31:15you know what we really should be

1:31:18worshiping is the fact that we're alive.

1:31:21The fact that evolution happened. The

1:31:24fact that the world was created the way

1:31:26it is. The fact that we understand what

1:31:28the big bang is and we have all this

1:31:31connection. We're able to understand the

1:31:33world of animals and etc. That's

1:31:36mindblowing.

1:31:38But technology doesn't to me have have

1:31:40that awesome feeling. I don't feel when

1:31:43I go through AI of oh my god. Now, I

1:31:48must say that when you have a a problem

1:31:52that you want to look up about something

1:31:55very uh esoteric and you type it into

1:31:59AI,

1:32:00it is kind of magical.

1:32:02>> I won't deny it that all of this large

1:32:06language model, this consumption of vast

1:32:09amounts of material can answer any

1:32:13question that you want, right? You know,

1:32:16even the most detailed question I I I

1:32:19got a new car and it has a computerized

1:32:22system of navigation, all these things

1:32:24that I can't understand. I asked AI a

1:32:27question, very specific question about

1:32:29it. It answered it. It is incredible. I

1:32:33must I must say and in a in a certain

1:32:36way, you go, "Wow, we were able to

1:32:39create that." But on another level, it's

1:32:42just information. It's just data. It

1:32:45doesn't really fill me with the same

1:32:47sense of awe as like nature.

1:32:52I will say that in the early years of

1:32:54the internet,

1:32:56there was a feeling of the sublime. I

1:33:00believe in that we could be connected to

1:33:04the other 8 billion people on the planet

1:33:06in a way that was very direct that we

1:33:08could communicate with everybody, share

1:33:10our likes, find people who like the same

1:33:13things that we liked and and kind of

1:33:15instantaneous. It was a it was beautiful

1:33:18and then it got changed into something

1:33:20very different. And AI has a side of it

1:33:24that that is a little bit awesome in how

1:33:29much knowledge it has. But on the other

1:33:31side, the frightening aspects of it like

1:33:36are we aware of what criminals are going

1:33:39to be doing with AI?

1:33:41Do you realize that there's a dark side

1:33:43of human nature that people have

1:33:45criminal tendencies?

1:33:47You know, I just know like as a writer,

1:33:51I get these fishing emails that say I

1:33:55represent a Goodreads community of

1:33:5880,000 engaged readers. And what struck

1:34:02me about the 48 laws of power, blah blah

1:34:04blah blah. It's these cookie cutter

1:34:06things that AI have devised that are

1:34:08very clever. that just marketing things

1:34:10that are trying to get me to give my

1:34:12money up.

1:34:14Can you imagine what criminals on a

1:34:16large scale are going to do with this?

1:34:18The weapons that they're going to be

1:34:19able to learn how to make from AI. So

1:34:22for that awe moment I have about my new

1:34:24car, there's this side of, yeah, people

1:34:27are going to be able to use it to build

1:34:29their own nuclear bomb or their own

1:34:32biological weapon. What are we creating?

1:34:36It seems from the conversations I've

1:34:39I've had that some of the people

1:34:41building AI

1:34:43like see it in a almost religious way

1:34:45that they are like bringing about some

1:34:48type of super intelligent deity or

1:34:51something. Uh do you get that sense?

1:34:55Yes. And um

1:34:57you know uh there's a sense I mean what

1:35:00it can do for medicine it is could be

1:35:02incredible. It could it could, you know,

1:35:04diagnose cancer well before and and and

1:35:07let you live longer, you know, but a lot

1:35:11of people doing AI are very frightened

1:35:14of it at the same time. And they're very

1:35:15aware of the dangers that can come

1:35:17because they see they know what China is

1:35:21developing with AI, the totalitarian

1:35:24powers that it can give a government,

1:35:26>> right? There was an article in the New

1:35:28York Times today about how the first

1:35:31completely AI drone attacked the Ukraine

1:35:36and killed three people. It was it was

1:35:40just wasn't even directed by a human

1:35:42being. It was completely on its own. It

1:35:44flew on its own on its own impetus and

1:35:48it you know that's the future of

1:35:49warfare. If these people who are

1:35:52developing these things can't see the

1:35:54dark side of human nature and what

1:35:56they're going to do with it, I don't

1:35:58know what kind of stupidity or

1:35:59irrationality is or what kind of

1:36:01blindness that they have. At the

1:36:03beginning of this year, we had the

1:36:05release of the Epstein files which

1:36:09suggested that several well-known

1:36:12scientists, celebrities, politicians

1:36:14were a part of Jeffrey Epstein's

1:36:16network.

1:36:20Why do powerful people get away with

1:36:24evil?

1:36:27In my laws of human nature book, I have

1:36:30a chapter on what I call grandiosity.

1:36:34>> And what that means, what I what I

1:36:36describe it is normally, let's say we

1:36:40humans live on the ground. Our feet are

1:36:43on the ground. And that ground is

1:36:44reality. It's actually who we are. all

1:36:48our wards, all our good sides, our bad

1:36:50sides. We live generally about eight

1:36:53feet above ground because we think of

1:36:56ourselves as being better than we

1:36:57actually are. We think of ourselves as

1:36:59smarter, better looking, more moral and

1:37:02nice and virtuous than we actually are,

1:37:05but we're only like 8t off the ground,

1:37:07which isn't too bad. Mhm.

1:37:09>> You start having success, you start

1:37:12having some power and that 8 ft starts

1:37:14turning into 80 ft, into 800 ft, into

1:37:17several thousand miles above Earth. You

1:37:20think that you are great, that you have

1:37:22the magic touch. Everyone around you

1:37:27is saying how wonderful you are. You get

1:37:29you're fil surrounded by yes people. You

1:37:32know, Elon Musk, he's not surrounded by

1:37:34people who are telling him, Elon, you're

1:37:37going a little too far. or you should

1:37:38stop taking these drugs. You need to be

1:37:41more realistic. You need to do this. No,

1:37:43they're all feeding his his ego, his

1:37:46sense of grandiosity.

1:37:48And when you get to that point, you no

1:37:52longer are aware of consequences.

1:37:55So, if you're only like 8 ft off the

1:37:58ground

1:37:59and you start seeing that there's

1:38:01something that you do that could be

1:38:03wrong or that could hurt you or that

1:38:06could come back and and bite you,

1:38:10you might not think of it too deeply,

1:38:12but you it'll stop you from doing this

1:38:14behavior because you're aware of it. But

1:38:16when you get that high, you start losing

1:38:17any sense of responsibility, any sense

1:38:20of consequences because you've never had

1:38:22to pay any consequences. You can get

1:38:24away with anything. And you know, it's

1:38:26the famous quote of Bill Clinton, you

1:38:29know, why did you do that with Monica

1:38:31Lewinsky and sabotage your entire

1:38:34career? Because I could. I was able to.

1:38:38I could. I could do it. If you feel like

1:38:40you can do something, then there are no

1:38:43sense of consequences.

1:38:45And you know, I sometimes consult with

1:38:48people who are very very powerful. I was

1:38:51on the uh board of directors of a

1:38:54company American Apparel and the uh CEO

1:38:58of the company Dove Charnie. He was a

1:39:01brilliant entrepreneur, but he had a

1:39:03side of him that was uncontrollable

1:39:06and it was becoming abusive of his

1:39:08employees and he was basically

1:39:12u sexualizing the environment

1:39:15>> and we we slowly became more and more

1:39:18aware of that. But nobody had ever

1:39:21chastised him. Nobody had ever stopped

1:39:23him. He had lawsuits. He won every

1:39:25single one of his lawsuits. And he got a

1:39:28sense of being invulnerable.

1:39:30When you get that sense of being

1:39:31invulnerable that you can beat anything

1:39:33through a lawsuit, then what's to stop

1:39:36you? You know, and look at it. I mean,

1:39:39you've got Bill Gates caught up in this

1:39:42scandal. So, it's not a question of

1:39:45intelligence.

1:39:47I imagine Bill Gates has a very high IQ,

1:39:50right? As as do some of these other

1:39:52people. The Nam Chsky was caught up in

1:39:55it for God's sake. These people have

1:39:57very high IQs, but that's not what

1:40:00tripped them up, right? That's not what

1:40:02got them involved. It's that sense of

1:40:04I'm bigger than anything. I'm not going

1:40:06to pay any consequences. I can get my

1:40:08way out of anything I want to.

1:40:11That's an interesting take. Yeah. I

1:40:15I'm not sure how much you read into the

1:40:18files or have looked into the story as a

1:40:20whole, but I wanted to ask

1:40:24about the character of Epstein himself.

1:40:26Which of the 48 laws of power would you

1:40:30suspect Epstein mastered?

1:40:33Appeal to people's self-interest.

1:40:36So, what Jeffrey Epstein was was a

1:40:39master middleman. He could connect you

1:40:42to anything you wanted, right? He knew

1:40:46your weaknesses. So, uh, you wanted, uh,

1:40:50front row tickets to the Knicks, I can

1:40:52get you that because I've been

1:40:53befriended with with Mr. No D N D N D N

1:40:55D N D N D N D N D N D N D N D N D N D N

1:40:55D N D N D N D N D N D N D Nolan who's

1:40:56who owns the New York Knicks. You want

1:40:59this for your daughter to get into

1:41:01Harvard? Well, I'm connected to this man

1:41:04who's donated who's been one of my

1:41:06donors. I can get your daughter into

1:41:07Harvard. So he knew what people's

1:41:11self-interest was, right? So maybe it

1:41:15was funding for your particular cause,

1:41:17for your university. Maybe it was travel

1:41:21to some exotic island on one of his

1:41:24private airplanes and being relaxed.

1:41:26Maybe it was having sex with underageed

1:41:29young women. You know, he knew what was

1:41:33your interest, what your weakness is.

1:41:34also the the law about finding your

1:41:36thumb screw but more about what it is

1:41:39that you were missing what you needed in

1:41:41life and he would be the one to supply

1:41:43it

1:41:45>> and it's a very compelling argument you

1:41:47know like let's say me for instance

1:41:52I had a stroke and I can't do certain

1:41:56things and what if Jeffrey Epstein

1:41:59contacts me and he goes Robert

1:42:02I know the finest neurosurgeon at

1:42:05Harvard who's developed this incredible

1:42:08new um I I forget what the word is

1:42:11peptide or whatever um one of those baby

1:42:14things that they get from you that that

1:42:16they put inside your body.

1:42:17>> Oh, stem cells.

1:42:18>> Stem cells. I know the guy who's

1:42:19developed the most advanced stem cells.

1:42:22You're going to be walking again.

1:42:26What do you say to that? Sure, Jeffrey.

1:42:28I'll do that. Okay, we'll come to a

1:42:29party here at my townhouse in Manhattan

1:42:32and I'll connect you to him. All right.

1:42:33I take the next plane and I meet him

1:42:35there and now I'm involved in Jeffrey

1:42:38Epstein's world and now it's publicized

1:42:40and now my reputation as Robert Green is

1:42:42ruined because of that. I could see

1:42:44myself falling for that. I mean maybe my

1:42:49weariness would have done some research

1:42:51about Jeffrey Epstein and by the time it

1:42:53was past 2008 or nine he had already

1:42:57been arrested and imprisoned in Miami.

1:43:02a slight bit of research would have

1:43:03said, "Well, [gasps]

1:43:05I had a stroke, but maybe maybe it's not

1:43:07worth it." You know, maybe I'll just

1:43:09find this Harvard guy on my own. But I

1:43:12could see where that would work, right?

1:43:14Because he knew what my weakness was,

1:43:16what I needed most. And he was going to

1:43:18be the man who supplied it. And that was

1:43:20his power. He was connected to so many

1:43:22people in so many different branches in

1:43:25war, in politics, in culture, in in sex,

1:43:30in in business, in in education that he

1:43:34could connect anybody to anybody that

1:43:35they needed to for for any problem they

1:43:38had. That was the source of his power.

1:43:40>> I think that's a great assessment. And

1:43:43which of the 48 laws of power do you

1:43:47think led to his downfall? Epstein

1:43:50in victory know when to stop. Law number

1:43:5447 I believe

1:43:57when you've had some success

1:44:00uh which I mean if you could call that

1:44:03success I guess. I mean let's just I I

1:44:06wouldn't but that let's just say that

1:44:09you know step back. Okay you're addicted

1:44:13to young women. It's terrible. It's

1:44:15dangerous. It's been incredibly You've

1:44:17ruined so many lives. You've been

1:44:19arrested

1:44:21and you've spent time in prison. Stop.

1:44:25Stop at that point, right? And now give

1:44:29charities to young women. And now

1:44:33completely reform yourself and go off

1:44:35into the last 30 years of your life of a

1:44:38different person. In victory, know when

1:44:40to stop. Know when things are going to

1:44:42turn around. When success seems like

1:44:45it's it's inevitable that everything you

1:44:47do is great, you're headed for a

1:44:50downfall because the next thing that

1:44:52happens will probably be a bad thing

1:44:54because inevitably that is how things

1:44:57happen. Your trajectory in life is never

1:44:59straight up. And in fact, the more time

1:45:01you have victory, the less cautious you

1:45:03become and you're going to find yourself

1:45:05tripping over yourself at some point.

1:45:08>> So that was the law essentially that he

1:45:10violated. I'm sure there are others, but

1:45:12that would be the one that sticks out.

1:45:14And do you think it's possible? I'm not

1:45:15sure if there's a law that correlates to

1:45:16this or if that is the one that

1:45:19correlates to this idea. But just that

1:45:21he became so influential and was doing

1:45:25so much that someone else wanted to

1:45:27usurp whatever position he was in. You

1:45:30mean envy?

1:45:31>> I guess so. Like I like I'm not sure

1:45:34exactly what people classify him as. I

1:45:37don't think anyone really has a clear

1:45:39idea of what his role was in the world,

1:45:41but like if maybe someone else wanted to

1:45:44make them money in the way he was making

1:45:45money or have the opportunities and

1:45:48connections that he had, I guess that

1:45:50would be envy.

1:45:52Yeah. I I just think um he made so many

1:45:56enemies among young women and the women

1:46:00who were the victims of his abuse

1:46:03that at some point it was going to bite

1:46:06him. You couldn't get away with that.

1:46:08You can't keep all that quiet.

1:46:11It It is a fascinating thing that people

1:46:14of high intelligence, of high IQ like

1:46:16him or Bill Gates, don't think like

1:46:19that. They don't think like there are

1:46:22now roaming around the planet hundreds

1:46:24of women who hate my guts, who want to

1:46:27kill me, who who I I know that I have a

1:46:31even though I won't admit it, I'll think

1:46:32that they were willing or something. How

1:46:35come you can't think that at some point

1:46:37they're going to gang up? That they're

1:46:38going to get revenge on you,

1:46:40>> right?

1:46:41>> People who don't think of consequences

1:46:44fascinate me because how do you go

1:46:46through that? How how is that? I'm

1:46:48someone who's always thinking about

1:46:49consequences.

1:46:51You know, I'm always aware of my

1:46:54reputation of something I could say or

1:46:56something I could do that would ruin the

1:46:58whole thing. you know, how is it that

1:47:01there are people in power that just

1:47:04aren't aware of any of that? It it's

1:47:06it's a fascinating subject, but I I

1:47:08don't necessarily have the answer.

1:47:09Right. It's kind of like what you said

1:47:11earlier, but it's they surround

1:47:13themselves with people who don't believe

1:47:14in consequences. Maybe in your life, you

1:47:16surround yourself with people who

1:47:18believe in consequences. In regards to

1:47:21power and powerful people, we kind of

1:47:24touched on this a bit earlier,

1:47:26but Mark Zuckerberg, Sam Alman, Brian

1:47:30Johnson, they're all spending hundreds

1:47:33of thousands, hundreds of millions of

1:47:34dollars on cellular reprogramming, blood

1:47:37work, biohacking.

1:47:40Like, why do you think the most powerful

1:47:42people on Earth are obsessed with living

1:47:44forever? Well, uh,

1:47:48I don't know. They get a feeling that

1:47:50like we talked about it earlier like

1:47:52technology can solve everything,

1:47:55>> right? And so who deep down in their

1:47:59heart wants to die unless you're like

1:48:01suicidal, right? Uh we all we all would

1:48:04like to live and not maybe not forever

1:48:07but longer. So I have the money. I'm in

1:48:12a tech business. I can fund whatever and

1:48:17I'm different from other people. It's

1:48:19like a mark of distinction of of

1:48:22superiority.

1:48:24Uh you know the average joke out there

1:48:27can't afford these things can't try to

1:48:29live forever but I can because I have

1:48:31all this power. You know Vladimir Putin

1:48:34is in that group. He's trying he's

1:48:35believes in all that stuff

1:48:37>> really.

1:48:37>> You know Brian Johnson I just read an

1:48:39article. He's now come down with some

1:48:41disease that I don't know if it's going

1:48:43to kill him, but it's like making him

1:48:46aware that all of his interventions are

1:48:50coming at a cost in a way. So, it's a

1:48:53belief that I've done so well, I can

1:48:56solve everything and why not solve the

1:48:59problem of death itself, you know, and

1:49:02then if I live longer, I can make more

1:49:05money and I can do all these other

1:49:07things. It's so empty. It's so devoid of

1:49:10anything.

1:49:12That's why it's like how could people

1:49:14who were so smart and intelligent be so

1:49:17incredibly stupid, you know? I mean,

1:49:20first of all, so my mother, God bless

1:49:25her, is 99 and in two and a half months

1:49:28she's going to turn 100 and she's going

1:49:30to make it the way she's going. But

1:49:35every single one of her friends has

1:49:37died, right? You know, she has me and my

1:49:41sister, but that's about it, right? All

1:49:44of her friends are gone. All of her

1:49:46relations are gone. She can't hear very

1:49:48well. Her seeing's going, she's doing

1:49:51okay, but she's your body's going to

1:49:54decay at some point, and you're going to

1:49:56have to deal with it. And even if you

1:49:58prolong your life for another 10, 20, 30

1:50:00years, you're going to be alone. You're

1:50:03not going to have any of your friends

1:50:04around. Your wife will have died, you

1:50:08know, well before you unless she's also

1:50:10taking the same things as you. It's like

1:50:13it's not intelligent. It's not thinking

1:50:16at at all. You know, I can understand

1:50:18the impulse to be healthy.

1:50:21I feel like that and I'm doing things so

1:50:23that I can live a good life. What

1:50:26matters is not living forever. What

1:50:28matters is living well. And living well

1:50:31is to have energy to you know to have

1:50:33your senses still there to have your

1:50:35brain still functioning to be able to