Doctor Gabor Mate: The Shocking Link Between Kindness & Illness!

0:0070% of the adult population is at least

0:02on one medication. Quarter of women are

0:04on antidepressants. The rate of

0:06childhood is going up. Worldwide,

0:09there's this epidemic of distress. What

0:11can we do about that? So, the first step

0:13would be to Dr. Gabor Maté

0:16Legendary thinker Celebrated speaker and

0:18best-selling author

0:19Highly sought after for his expertise on

0:21addiction, trauma, childhood

0:23development, and stress. People

0:25pleasers, these are the people that tend

0:26to develop diseases. When people don't

0:28know how to say no, the body will say no

0:30for them. That niceness is a repression

0:32of healthy anger, and that repression of

0:34healthy anger has huge implications to

0:37your health. And when you repress your

0:38immune system, you're more likely to

0:40have that immune system turn against

0:41you. People who emotionally repress are

0:43more likely to get cancer. And emotional

0:45repression is one of the impacts of

0:47childhood trauma. We interrupt this film

0:49to tell you we are getting reports that

0:51The people's princess is dead. Harry was

0:53a traumatized child. How he's told about

0:56his mother's death is that it was an

0:58accident, "Your mother didn't make it."

1:00His father touches Harry on the knee and

1:02says, "But it'll be okay." and leaves

1:04the room. This 12-year-old, nobody held

1:06him. And children can be traumatized not

1:09just by terrible things happening to

1:10them, but just by not having their needs

1:13met, by not being seen, not being heard,

1:15not being held. Those are wounding for a

1:17child. But my interview with Prince

1:19Harry, I had a gut feeling all along

1:21that I shouldn't agree to do the

1:22interview. It really got to me. I lost

1:25myself. What happened?

1:36Gabor

1:38There's a question we often ask each

1:39other

1:40in flippant conversations, which we

1:42usually kind of brush away because it's

1:44the convenient thing to do. Yeah. That

1:46question is the question I wanted to

1:48start by asking you, which is

1:50how are you?

1:51Yeah.

1:52Um

1:57So, that question is for me brings up,

1:59you know, two dimensions. One is how am

2:01I at this present moment, which is, you

2:02know, how am I at this moment, you know,

2:04which is all there is.

2:05I'm well. I'm I I feel rather peaceful

2:09inside.

2:10Um

2:11I'm very happy to be here with you.

2:14If you'd asked me 2 days ago, I wouldn't

2:16have said that. I would have said I was

2:18feeling somewhat anxious and uh

2:20and kind of troubled, you know? So, um

2:24as a in the moment answer, I'm well, and

2:27I also know how to

2:29keep well as long as I

2:32stick with what I know. And when I

2:34forget what I know, then I can be very

2:36not well. And

2:38so, the last year since we've met has

2:40been in many ways a tough year for me.

2:42Um also one of deep learning. So,

2:44if the question is how have I been, I'd

2:47say I've been up and down, and I've had

2:49real challenges that I've had to learn

2:51from. How am I right now? I'm really

2:54well, thank you.

2:562 days ago, if I'd asked you that

2:57question, your answer would have been

2:58anxious and troubled. Yeah. Why?

3:00I gave a talk on Monday night to 2,100

3:03people. And uh I just didn't think I did

3:06my best here in London. And I thought,

3:08"Oh boy, I could have done better. I let

3:10people down." Um I I allowed myself

3:13judgments and self-doubts to really um

3:15dominate my my thinking. And um

3:19you know, as much as I think I'm

3:22uh immune to that kind of self-doubt,

3:24evidently I'm not. Um so, that's what

3:27happened.

3:29When you say um you let it cloud your

3:31thinking, what are the What were the

3:32symptoms of that? So, you you gave a

3:34talk 2 days ago to 2,100 people.

3:36Yeah.

3:36And you didn't feel you did your best.

3:38You went home that night. What was going

3:40on in your head? What are the symptoms

3:41of that

3:42feeling? Um constant um

3:47Mm.

3:49Cyclical

3:51self-criticism of I could have been more

3:53present, I could have been more

3:55grounded,

3:57more attuned with the audience, perhaps.

4:00But, you know, just all these

4:01self-criticisms,

4:03which then are accompanied by certain

4:05feelings in the body, like kind of a a

4:08roiling in my belly and so on. And uh

4:11that's what I went through.

4:13And what was the remedy for that?

4:17Cuz we can all relate. Yeah. Earlier

4:19this year,

4:21um

4:22also feeling in a state of

4:23discombobulation,

4:25uh just a few months ago, I did

4:26something radical. I did a 2-week total

4:29sabbatical from the internet. No cell

4:31phone, no emails, no no checking on

4:35Amazon how my book books are doing, you

4:38know, all this self-referential

4:40uh

4:41uh ego enhancement stuff. And it just

4:44really made a difference. Uh by the end

4:45of 2 weeks, I was a different person.

4:47And so, I'm keeping it up. And one of

4:50the things you learn is you start

4:52noticing

4:54these body states that you're in and the

4:56mental mm

4:58hoops that you jump through, but you

5:00don't identify with them. So,

5:03what's the worst case scenario? I didn't

5:05do the best possible job. Okay, what's

5:08the headline in the newspaper? Human

5:10being fails to do his best on a

5:12particular occasion. What's the big

5:14deal?

5:16You know? So,

5:17it's a matter of observing this all all

5:20this stuff and not identifying with it.

5:22Not letting it take you over

5:25as it tends to.

5:27I was reading something that said

5:29when we

5:31vocalize or share our stress, it moves

5:33it from the emotional center of our

5:35brain to the much more rational center

5:37of our brain, Yeah. where we can kind of

5:39step outside of the video game and hold

5:41the controller, per se. Exactly.

5:43Yeah, it's the um

5:45um midfrontal cortex of our brain um

5:49that has insight and um

5:51um social connection and uh uh

5:55awareness, you know,

5:57which so often goes offline as soon as

6:00some emotion takes over, some anxiety or

6:03anger or

6:05resentment takes over. Uh the midfrontal

6:09cortex tends to go offline. And uh the

6:11more trauma you experience as a child,

6:14the more likely that is to happen, so

6:15that your

6:17insightful

6:19capacities, the executive functions get

6:21taken over by some deeper emotional

6:24dynamics.

6:25And so, um

6:27one of the

6:28benefits to me of meditation is

6:31is it restores that

6:33uh executive function, so that I'm not

6:36taken over or

6:38too long taken over by emotional

6:41dynamics that

6:43just sweep me away.

6:45For 2 weeks this year, you said you went

6:46offline. Yeah. Why?

6:49Sometimes people say to me uh I I wrote

6:52this book that I know that you have on

6:53your desk, When the Body Says No. And

6:55and my contention is when people don't

6:57know how to say no, the body will say it

6:59in the form of illness. And uh

7:02I I can tell you hundreds of times

7:04people have said to me, "Your book has

7:05saved my life." And my response has

7:07always been, "Maybe I should read it

7:09myself." Because the fact is I'm quite

7:11capable of giving advice and dispensing

7:13wisdom that I don't follow myself.

7:16And that was the case. So, I became

7:18quite stressed, and my relationship with

7:20my wife, Rae, became very fraught.

7:23And she said,

7:24"Enough.

7:26Enough of this gap between who you are

7:28there in public and how you are in

7:30private."

7:31So, that was the big incentive for me,

7:33cuz uh

7:35uh

7:35we're coming up to our 54th anniversary,

7:38and on the whole, I'd rather stay

7:39married than not.

7:41Everything else being considered.

7:43But also for myself, I don't really like

7:44I don't want to be that guy anymore who

7:47who can speak

7:49the truth

7:50that a lot of people consider to be a

7:52truth

7:53so articulately,

7:55but not follow it myself. So, I just

7:57don't want to be that person. And that

7:59takes practice. And that's why I get

8:01That's why I take the to take a break

8:03from the internet.

8:04And what was interesting is

8:08I had my cell phone on airplane mode, so

8:10nobody could get through me.

8:11Couple days Couple times a day, I'd

8:13still pick up the cell phone.

8:15And I say, "What are you doing?"

8:17There's nothing on it, cuz you it's on

8:18the internet. But

8:20the compulsion

8:22to try and get some from the outside

8:25to fill some

8:27some gap within. I just kept noticing

8:29it. By the end of 2 weeks, it wasn't so

8:32strong anymore.

8:34Um

8:35so,

8:36I did it because I needed to for the

8:38sake of my own mental health.

8:41An up and down year for you, you said.

8:43Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

8:46Is that Is that the the down you were

8:48talking about?

8:49Well, I remember a conversation my

8:52conversation with you. And I and I think

8:55I remember you telling me that

8:57you had this goal of becoming a

8:59millionaire. When I was younger, yeah.

9:00When I was younger. And then it's when

9:02you achieve that goal

9:04that you realize that

9:07that ain't all there is. That you're

9:09still left very much with your internal

9:12demons.

9:14And that's a very common lesson. I mean,

9:16there's two ways to

9:19to wake up. One is failure, where you

9:21keep asking yourself, you know, but but

9:23but but success is even more because you

9:26think that once you get something,

9:28then you'll be happy, and you know? So,

9:30I thought, "Okay, well, jeez, I could,

9:32you know?" So, this book, The Myth of

9:34Normal, you know, best-seller

9:35internationally and published in 35

9:37languages, I should be happy. No. The

9:40more I got involved with it, the more I

9:41toured with it, the more engaged with

9:44the outside I became, the more miserable

9:45miserable I became inside.

9:47So, the very success of the book and it

9:49allowed to sweep sweep It swept me away,

9:52and I lost myself, you know? So, that

9:54was one thing. And I did this very long,

9:56exhausting tour. I wasn't taking care of

9:58myself. And then there was the

10:01uh my interview with Prince Harry and

10:03all the um

10:05uh fru-fra around it before it and after

10:07it. And I allowed that allowed that to

10:10take me over as well. Really? Yeah,

10:12yeah.

10:13Yeah. I mean,

10:15retrospect, I can see what happened, but

10:18at the time I was too caught up in it to

10:19notice.

10:21You know? So,

10:22what I'm saying is that it doesn't

10:24matter what I know, if I don't pay

10:27attention, rigorous attention, to what's

10:29going on inside, and if I keep looking

10:32to the outside to give me meaning and

10:34give me um validation,

10:37then

10:39I can lose myself.

10:41And that's what happened.

10:43Your interview with Prince Harry,

10:48how did that cause you to lose yourself?

10:51Well, in two ways. One is um

10:54I had a gut feeling all along that I

10:56shouldn't agree to doing it the way they

10:57set it up. Because of the way it was set

11:00up is in order to watch it, people have

11:02to buy a copy of Harry's book.

11:04And I thought this is not fair. 4

11:06million people have already bought the

11:07book. Why can't they watch this

11:09interview? Do they have to buy another

11:10copy? In other words, I believed that

11:13this should be a free public service

11:15on the part of two people who can have a

11:17very interesting conversation. But out

11:20of sheer opportunism, I agreed to it.

11:22So, I didn't follow my gut feeling. So,

11:23I lost myself even in agreeing to the

11:26format. And afterwards, Harry and I both

11:29wanted it released to the public for

11:30free, but the lawyers said you can't do

11:32that because this was advertised as a

11:35one-time-only event, and you could they

11:37could be a class action suit.

11:39So, um

11:41the result was that I agreed to

11:42something that I didn't really like.

11:45Not that I didn't like the idea of

11:46talking with him. I didn't like the idea

11:48of putting this behind a paywall. So, I

11:50lost myself just in agreeing to it.

11:52Number one.

11:54Number two, then there was the

11:55incredible social media and British

11:57media reaction to it that was for the

12:00most part

12:02so negative and so demeaning and so

12:04dismissive and so distorted that I

12:07barely even know how to talk about it. I

12:09thought by this age I would know better,

12:12but you know what? It really got to me.

12:14It really got to me. I mean, uh I can

12:17give you examples, but um

12:19eventually what happened was

12:21that I was really in a

12:23negative state of mind, and

12:25have you read the book The um The Fox,

12:28the Mole, the Horse, and the Boy, and

12:30the and the Horse? I bought it last

12:31week. It's upstairs in my bag.

12:33Wonderful. So, great It's a great little

12:35book great big book, although very few

12:38words in it, mostly just these wonderful

12:40drawings. Charlie Mackesy, um he's

12:43really channeling wisdom in that book,

12:44and the horse is the most grounded of

12:48the four characters of the four friends,

12:50and he's asked,

12:51"What's the most courageous thing you've

12:52ever said?" And the horse says,

12:55"Help."

12:56So, it's so difficult to ask for help,

12:59but I did. You know, in the middle of

13:01all this fru-fra and my upset, and I

13:04called a

13:05friend of mine, a psychiatrist,

13:07um

13:09and I said, "I'm just in a bad state."

13:12And he said, "What's going on for you?"

13:13And I said, "Well, there's all this bad

13:14press and all the

13:16social media distortion of who I am and

13:18my motives." He said, "What is it about

13:20that you bothers you so much?"

13:22And I said, "Not being seen."

13:27Not being seen is one of the needs of

13:28the child.

13:29But he said to me,

13:31"Okay, look, Gabor, when you were an

13:33infant, you not being seen for who you

13:35are as a human being almost cost you

13:37your life."

13:38Which it did.

13:40As soon as he said that, I said, "Yeah."

13:43This isn't about the present.

13:45This is an old, unresolved, not yet

13:47fully resolved wound. Age 79, I'm still

13:51upset at not being seen. I don't care if

13:53people agree with me um or they viewed

13:56my ideas, but I want them to see me and

13:58what I'm actually saying, not some

14:00distorted version created by their own

14:02minds. And And when he said that, "That

14:06not being seen really threatened your

14:08life." I said, "Yeah. That's what's

14:10going on." And then I could relax. I

14:12said, "This is So what what somebody

14:14else says? I don't live in the British

14:15press. I don't live in somebody else's

14:17mind. Here I am,

14:20you know? Let them think and say what

14:22they say. But

14:24it took somebody to wake me up to that.

14:27So, that's what happened.

14:30You said you could share examples of how

14:31it got to you.

14:33Of Yeah.

14:35Well, oh boy, um they called me a stern,

14:39overbearing

14:41merchant of pain.

14:44You know? Uh

14:49At some point in the interview, you

14:52know, when Harry was um And here's the

14:53thing was See, Harry really was a

14:55traumatized child. Um And you can when

14:58you read his book, you you can see why,

15:01you know, he

15:03And people couldn't understand how this

15:05is possible. How could somebody so

15:06privileged,

15:07at the very apex of society, in gilded

15:10palaces, be traumatized? Total

15:12misunderstanding of trauma.

15:14Um it's true.

15:16Uh people have it much tougher in many

15:19ways, but as an infant, as a sensitive

15:22infant, to be born into a

15:25a loveless marriage where the father's

15:27having an affair even before he's born,

15:29where the mother's a troubled, very

15:31sensitive, very creative, warm-hearted,

15:33but

15:34mm very unbalanced young woman. So,

15:37Harry describes in his book

15:40Spare, that he's 12 years old when his

15:43mother's killed.

15:45How he's told about his mother's death

15:48is that his father, then Prince Charles,

15:50comes into his room early in the morning

15:53and says,

15:54"Something terrible happened. There was

15:56an accident. Your mother didn't make

15:57it."

15:59Then there's a few moments of awkward

16:00silence, and finally

16:02Charles touches Harry on the knee and

16:05says, "But it'll be okay." And leaves

16:07the room.

16:08And this is how this 12-year-old was

16:10told.

16:11Nobody held him.

16:13Um Charles himself was only doing what

16:16happened to him

16:18when when Queen Elizabeth went on a

16:21international four- or five-month royal

16:23tour, leaving the five-year-old kid

16:26behind. When she returned to England,

16:29she greeted him by shaking his hand.

16:32And

16:34now

16:35what I said to Harry was that even

16:38animals

16:40hold and touch their kids.

16:43Their infants, mammals, that's what they

16:44do.

16:45Because mother rats, when the baby's

16:48born, they lick their babies.

16:51And the way the mother rat uh

16:53rat licks the baby, this has been shown

16:55in laboratory, influences the brain

16:57development of the child. And those

16:59babies that get the right kind of

17:01licking, it's called grooming, they have

17:04better brains as adults.

17:07Premature infants used to be put in

17:09incubators, and nobody used to touch

17:10them.

17:11Then it was found out that if I just by

17:14stroking their backs 10 minutes a day,

17:16that promotes healthy brain development.

17:18And the great British-American uh

17:21anthropologist Ashley Montagu wrote a

17:23book called Skin: The Human Significance

17:25of Touch.

17:27So, I was saying that touch is

17:28important. You not being held and not

17:30being touched was a deprivation.

17:33And I said, "Mammals,

17:35monkeys, you know what happens when a

17:36baby elephant is born? This is

17:38fascinating.

17:40The mother ele- I read this in the book

17:42called The Evolved Nest, for which I

17:44wrote the preface,

17:45by a wonderful psychologist called

17:47Darcia Narvaez. When a when an infant

17:49element elephant is born,

17:52and the mother goes into labor, all the

17:54other mother elephants stand around in a

17:56circle. When the infant plops on the

17:57ground, they all stroke them with their

17:59trunks.

18:01So, touch and being held is so important

18:06for mammals. And I was saying, "Animals

18:09do journalist, who I don't know what she

18:12was listening to, said, "I said the

18:15royal family treats their kids like

18:16animals."

18:17I said, "No. I wish they had."

18:20So, I mean, the distortion is just

18:23laughable if it wasn't if I hadn't taken

18:26it so personally,

18:27for the reasons I already explained. For

18:29you to take it

18:32so

18:33personally, which led you to call a

18:35psychiatrist, Yeah. a man like you with

18:38the knowledge you have that writes books

18:39about the mind and stress and the body

18:41and all these things,

18:44you must have been in a pretty dark

18:46place. I was in a dark place, and I

18:48wasn't But look,

18:50I'm a human being like the rest, and

18:52what Charlie Mackesy says in

18:54in that book is that the most courageous

18:57thing you can do is ask for help.

18:59Mm. It's true. You know, there's that I

19:01don't know if you remember the Beatles

19:02song Help, I need somebody, and and John

19:04Lennon sings, "When I was younger, so

19:06much younger than today, I didn't need

19:08anybody's help in any way."

19:10But now, those days are gone. I'm much

19:13less self-assured. He's actually saying

19:16that when he was younger, he believed he

19:19didn't need help.

19:20But the reason he believed he didn't

19:22need help, that he has to make it on his

19:23own, cuz he was so traumatized as a

19:25child.

19:26His uh father left him when he was born.

19:30Um his mother left.

19:32He was brought up by an aunt, and Lennon

19:34grows up feeling abandoned, that I can

19:36do this on my own. I don't need anybody.

19:39You know? And uh later on, he realizes,

19:43"I need help."

19:44But as actually, we're all born needing

19:47help. We're all born uh

19:49needing to be understood, to be attuned

19:53to be seen, to have our emotions

19:56received and validated. That's one of

19:57the essential needs of children.

20:00As I make the point in The Myth of

20:01Normal, and children can be traumatized

20:04not just by terrible things happening to

20:06them, but just by not having their needs

20:08met.

20:09By not being seen, not being heard, not

20:11being held, those are wounding for a

20:13child. Which is what the meaning of the

20:15word trauma means. So, you don't need

20:17terrible things to happen.

20:19It's so difficult for people to

20:20understand that.

20:22You know, they they they think for

20:23trauma, you need

20:25horrific events. Well, horrific events

20:28can be very traumatic. But you can wound

20:30people,

20:32sensitive people. The sensitive child or

20:34any child can be hurt

20:36just because the parents are too

20:37stressed and unavailable emotionally to

20:39really see them for who they are.

20:42I've struggled with that in my life,

20:43especially being um

20:46a CEO, I think. I've struggled to ask

20:49for help when I need it.

20:50Because you kind of see yourself as the

20:53helper.

20:54And also, I've struggled with the idea,

20:58maybe I don't know where I got this

20:59story from, that people like me, maybe

21:02because I'm a man,

21:03maybe because I'm um

21:06the head of businesses,

21:09we have to figure it out on our own.

21:11And the cost of repress repressing

21:15how I feel

21:17has become more and more evident over

21:19time. Yeah, how so? Just like I think I

21:23When I was younger, I never experienced

21:25anxiety before. And then as I had more

21:28difficult moments in business where I

21:29tried to solve the problem in my mind

21:31for the first time that like 25, 26, 27,

21:3428, 29, 30 that I experienced like fully

21:37fledged what I'd call anxiety where I

21:39just couldn't get a

21:42thought out of my head and I felt it in

21:44my body. My breath was short, this

21:46constant state of like angst. Yeah. Um

21:49and

21:51and yeah, I just thought I could deal

21:53with it myself. I thought I could think

21:54my way through it. Yeah. Um was that the

21:57hardest the the hardest moment in terms

21:59of your own psychology in your adult

22:01life in recent times?

22:03Let me answer that question in a moment,

22:04but let me ask you a question that

22:06occurs to me, if I may. Yeah, please. Um

22:08it's like with beautiful women,

22:11they sometimes have a really hard time

22:13cuz they can never know

22:17that somebody

22:18want me for who I really am,

22:20or they're just attracted to my physical

22:23features.

22:25So, for somebody who at a young age

22:27becomes quite wealthy and successful,

22:30um

22:31how do you know when somebody's

22:32approaching you?

22:34Are they

22:35approaching you cuz they want something

22:37from you, or because they really care

22:38about you? I mean, that must be a

22:39problem for you, I imagine. 100%.

22:42100%. You never really know or

22:43understand what your relationships are.

22:45Yeah.

22:46You know? Yeah. Huh. So, it it must be

22:48confusing sometimes. It is. And you I

22:51typically fall back onto the

22:53relationships I had before. Yeah. Yeah.

22:55Cuz I can trust those ones. Yeah. So, I

22:56have the same my

22:58best friends, people I spend my time

22:59with on my birthday, there's five, you

23:01know, five people there, are the five

23:03people that were there 10 years ago.

23:05Yeah. Unless, I think,

23:07we get reconnected to our gut feelings,

23:10then our gut feelings will tell us what

23:12is real and what isn't. But the problem

23:14for many of us is that we get

23:16disconnected from our gut feelings very

23:17early in life, like in a

23:19in this room of 2,100 at the Troxy on

23:22Monday night, um I think I asked this

23:24question, I always do it. Uh have you

23:26had the experience of having a strong

23:28gut feeling about something and not

23:30paying attention to it, ignoring it, and

23:32being sorry afterwards?

23:34Mhm. Almost everybody puts their hand

23:35up.

23:36That's a child sign of childhood

23:38wounding.

23:40Because we're born connected to our gut

23:41feelings. No baby is disconnected from

23:44their gut feelings. Something happens to

23:46make us disconnect. What is a gut

23:48feeling?

23:50In it from a physiological perspective,

23:52because gut feeling is used as a word to

23:53describe, you know, an intuition or, you

23:56know,

23:57Well, the real gut feeling is really

23:58happening in the gut.

24:01In the Western way of looking at it, we

24:04tend to look upon the intellect and and

24:05and the intellectual brain as the only

24:07brain that we have, but actually our

24:10brain is a far more complicated um

24:13structure.

24:14And our heart has a nervous system,

24:17which is connected to the brain up here.

24:19And there's a kind of knowing in the

24:20heart. Sometimes people say, "I knew it

24:21in my heart." And they did.

24:24If they're connected.

24:26Gut feelings are what all animals

24:28possess. It warns them of danger or when

24:30it's safe and when it isn't safe. Not in

24:32the brain. Um the gut is connected to

24:35the brain. The the gut sends more

24:37connections to the brain than the brain

24:39sends to the gut.

24:41And the gut has more of the

24:44neurotransmitter serotonin in it than

24:46the brain does.

24:48So that the gut feelings are here to

24:50tell us about what is safe and what

24:52isn't. And when the brain in the gut

24:56and the brain in the heart and the brain

24:58in up here in this in the head are

25:01connected, then we're grounded and

25:03present and very alert and very aware of

25:05what's going on. But when childhood

25:07trauma interferes with those

25:09connections, which it does, then we

25:11start to just work from up here, and we

25:13can think we can figure things just from

25:15up here.

25:17But actually, when you think about human

25:19beings, where did we evolve? We evolved

25:21for millions of years out in nature. How

25:24long does any creature in nature survive

25:26if they don't pay attention to their gut

25:28feelings?

25:30So, to go back to your question about

25:32me,

25:33I used to believe I really used to

25:35believe

25:36into my 40s that I everybody else could

25:39be stressed, but I couldn't be.

25:42And it's like you and your anxiety. Um

25:46I think the reason you

25:48I didn't feel the stress cuz I had

25:50coping mechanisms.

25:52Like working hard

25:54and um

25:55getting people's attention or using my

25:58smarts.

26:00And and

26:02uh having status and all this kind of

26:04stuff, you know?

26:05And then that broke down. I realized I I

26:08could be stressed like everybody else,

26:09but literally, I had to I I had this

26:12belief, and it's almost unbelievable to

26:13me now, that I used to believe that I

26:16couldn't everybody else could be

26:17stressed, but I couldn't be.

26:19That's what I thought.

26:22Yeah.

26:24Your wife, when you went through that

26:26Yeah. dark moment, if I was her, what

26:28would I have observed?

26:32Well, first of all, and I talk about

26:35this in The Myth of Normal, and really

26:37my wife came on stage at the Troxy on

26:38Monday night and talked about this. I

26:40asked her to.

26:42Women have 80% of autoimmune disease in

26:44this society.

26:46So that um

26:48diseases where the immune system attacks

26:50the body happens to women much more than

26:53to men.

26:54Things like rheumatoid arthritis,

26:55systemic lupus, chronic fatigue,

26:58fibromyalgia,

26:59um

27:00inflammatory diseases of the gut,

27:03um

27:04and and so on.

27:06Why?

27:07So,

27:08um

27:10those diseases tend to happen to people

27:13not just according to my own

27:14observation, although it's very much my

27:17own observation when I was working in

27:19family practice and palliative care

27:22before I did addiction medicine, I

27:24noticed that who got sick and who didn't

27:26wasn't accidental.

27:27Um as the subject of my book When the

27:29Body Says No, and then again in The Myth

27:32of Normal, people tended to be

27:36compulsively concerned with the

27:37emotional needs of others rather than

27:38their own,

27:40identified with duty, role, and

27:42responsibility, so they're

27:44they're working the world rather than

27:47their own um

27:49true selves.

27:50They tended to suppress healthy anger.

27:53So, they tended to be very very nice and

27:54peacemakers.

27:56And they tended to believe that they're

27:58responsible for other people feel, and

28:00that they must never they must

28:01disappoint anybody, two fatal beliefs.

28:03So, these are the people that according

28:05to my observation, but according to a

28:07whole lot of research as well that I

28:09didn't even know about, but I've since

28:11found them, elegant research, these are

28:13the people that tend to develop

28:15autoimmune disease. Now, in this

28:17society,

28:18which gender is more acculturated,

28:21programmed to suppress their healthy

28:23anger, to be the peacemakers, to be the

28:25caregivers? Women. This is a function of

28:29a reality that a lot of people deny, but

28:31it's a patriarchal society, but which we

28:33can talk about, but it's not a

28:34conspiracy, it's just how it works. So,

28:37me in my marriage, I expect my wife to

28:39absorb my stresses. And if I'm unhappy,

28:43guess who I blame? And who do I take it

28:45out on? So, she would experience

28:47somebody who's

28:48um can be hostile for no reason and

28:51blaming and

28:53she used to walk on eggshells.

28:56Now, um

28:58thank God, she's not the type to do that

29:00for too long, and at some point she'll

29:02call my bluff.

29:03And then I either wake up or she says,

29:07"Thank you very much, but enough of

29:08this." You know?

29:10And so, she would experience somebody

29:11who's irritable

29:13and

29:14unreasonably blaming

29:16and not taking care of their own needs,

29:18and then expecting her to take care of

29:20them for me.

29:22And um

29:24we both had to grow up. Now, she was

29:26programmed that way as a child.

29:28Her parents had a lot of problems, and

29:30she became the peacemaker and a

29:32caregiver emotionally.

29:34And then she carries that role into her

29:36marriage with me.

29:37And here's where the bad news is of her

29:39people, we always marry somebody at the

29:42same level of emotional development or

29:44trauma resolution as we are.

29:46So, when we met, we were two traumatized

29:48people not even realizing it. And then

29:50we played out our traumas, and I played

29:53it out in the typical male way,

29:55which is to be aggressive and demanding

29:57and resentful

29:59if she wasn't around to mother me.

30:03And um that's what she would have seen.

30:05And this dynamic can still arise

30:08except when it does,

30:10she puts a stop to it right away. And I

30:13have the

30:14grace and the wisdom I now to

30:16understand, yeah, I'm doing it again. In

30:18fact, I haven't done it since then.

30:20Because I just don't want to be that

30:21guy.

30:23You know, but that's what she would have

30:24seen.

30:25And what was going on inside your head?

30:27Were you anxious? Were you depressed?

30:30I was anxious and um

30:33then I want her her soothing. I want her

30:37I how should I say this? Um

30:41There's an interesting sexual dynamic

30:43between men and women.

30:44The men very often

30:46expect the unconsciously expect their

30:48women to mother them.

30:51To give them the mothering that

30:53they didn't fully receive as kids.

30:55And the women take on that role because

30:57they're acculturated in this society to

30:59do that.

31:00But then what happens sexually?

31:02No healthy guy wants to sleep with his

31:04mother. And no healthy woman wants to

31:06sleep with her son.

31:07So, that

31:08the the order and the you know, the the

31:11the passion kind of drains out because

31:13of this unconscious dynamic of women

31:16mothering men and and men men demanding

31:18that they do.

31:20So, then I become frustrated.

31:22And

31:24then who do I blame for that? I blame

31:26her rather than looking at how did I

31:28contribute to how did I have create this

31:30situation?

31:32So, um

31:33all that stuff played out in our

31:35marriage.

31:36And we've had to learn a lot from

31:38what didn't work.

31:40In my relationship when I was most

31:43anxious,

31:44it's also when my relationship nearly

31:48ended. Mhm.

31:50Um with my partner because like you

31:52said, I inadvertently took it out on her

31:55Yeah. because I felt that she should

31:56understand how I'm feeling and basically

31:58adapt to me.

32:00Exactly. And she didn't, and so

32:04there was conflict because I felt like

32:06she was misunderstanding me. Yeah. And

32:08wasn't like acting in the right way to

32:11meet the needs that I had. Like she

32:12couldn't under You know, and and so that

32:15I think I wore her down, and then there

32:17was kind of like as you say that

32:19ultimatum

32:21Yeah. moment where she's basically

32:22saying, "Listen, should I just go?"

32:24Yeah. And what you probably didn't do,

32:26and what I didn't do for a long time, is

32:28just to go to her and say, "You know

32:30what? I'm feeling anxious." Yeah, that

32:31was the That's what happened after. You

32:33know, you know, and I'm feeling

32:35unsettled. And I realize that I have

32:37resentful feelings towards you, you

32:39know?

32:40Instead of owning it, we acted out.

32:43Yeah. And then we Why don't they

32:44understand us? Yeah. And

32:46actually So, what we're actually

32:48demanding is that we can be children

32:50emotionally, and they be the mothers who

32:53without any

32:55effort on our part will understand and

32:57see us.

32:58You know, and this is a strong dynamic

33:02um in men-female relationships. And what

33:05tends to happen is is that men then

33:08Women at some point get to the

33:10if they're healthy enough. Now, if

33:12they're not If they're not strong enough

33:14to assert themselves, you know what

33:15happens? They get sick. Mhm. And uh

33:19I know this is a mouthful, but a lot of

33:23women's cancers and autoimmune diseases

33:25are precisely because of this

33:26self-repression. And I could talk about

33:28that at great length, the physiology of

33:30it. But either that the body will

33:33somehow say no for them. That's why

33:35women are on much more likely to be on

33:36antidepressants cuz they're taking the

33:38medication for both of them.

33:40You know, and so either the woman gets

33:43ill somehow or she asserts herself and

33:46says, "I'm not doing this anymore." At

33:48which point the guy will go seeking a

33:50younger mother who's not yet mature

33:52enough to assert herself.

33:54And this happens all the time in

33:56relationships.

33:58The cost of self-repression, the cost of

34:00sort of emotional repression. I think

34:01everybody is guilty at some point in

34:04their life of repressing their emotions.

34:05I think men Yeah. do it a lot as well. I

34:07mean, if you look at the suicidality

34:09Yeah. in the UK among men, men tend to

34:11act it out on themselves like that,

34:12yeah.

34:13What is the cost of self-repression that

34:15you talked about? The physiological

34:17mechanism of what's going on when we

34:19repress our emotions and how we feel?

34:21It's It's been well studied not just by

34:23me, but others

34:25and documented that repression of

34:28healthy anger

34:29um

34:30disturbs the immune system.

34:32Now, why should that be the case? Now,

34:35healthy anger

34:36is simply

34:38when somebody is intruding on your space

34:42and they won't desist. You say, "You're

34:45in my space. Get out." That's healthy

34:48anger. It's in the moment. When it's

34:50done its job, it's finished with.

34:53It's different from chronic rage, which

34:55is a whole other thing.

34:57Now,

34:58in other words, anger is a boundary

35:00defense.

35:01That's all it is. Animals do it. Ah, get

35:04out of my space.

35:05You know, now

35:07the emotional system in general has the

35:09job

35:11uh the human emotional system

35:15in general has the

35:17role of allowing in what is nurturing

35:20and loving and healthy and welcome and

35:23to keep out what isn't. That's the job

35:25of the emotional system.

35:27Let me ask you a trick question. What's

35:29the job of the immune system?

35:35Okay, I'll answer.

35:36It's to keep out what is unhealthy and

35:38unwelcome and toxic and to let in what

35:41is nurturing and healthy.

35:43So, the immune system is like is can be

35:45called a floating brain.

35:47It has a memory. It has a reactive

35:48capacity.

35:51And um

35:53it

35:55res- allows in nutrients and vitamins

35:58and healthy bacteria and keeps out and

36:00destroys what isn't, toxins and

36:03unhealthy invading organisms and so on.

36:06In other words, the immune system and

36:08the emotional system have exactly the

36:09same role.

36:13That's the first point. The second point

36:14is they're not separate systems.

36:17Physiologically speaking,

36:19the emotional system, the nervous

36:20system, hormonal apparatus, and the

36:22immune system are all one system.

36:25And there's a whole new science when I

36:27say new, 60, 70, 80 years old called

36:30psychoneuroimmunology

36:32that studies the unity. So, it's not

36:34even that all these things are

36:35connected, they're one.

36:37So, therefore, when you're suppressing

36:39one aspect of it, you're also

36:40suppressing the other. So, people that

36:42repress healthy anger, they have

36:44diminished immune activity.

36:46And this has been demonstrated.

36:49So,

36:50so the repression of emotions has a

36:53physiological function. And when you

36:55repress your immune system, you're more

36:57likely to have that immune system turn

36:58against you

37:00or to fail you when it comes to

37:02malignancy.

37:03The immune system like you and I have

37:05cancer cells in our bodies probably

37:06every day cuz na- nature makes mistakes.

37:09That's not a problem. The immune system

37:11recognizes them as

37:13cancer cells don't have on their

37:15surfaces markers

37:17that our normal cells do. So, the immune

37:19system says, "This is a foreigner. It's

37:21an enemy. I'm going to destroy it."

37:23But when you repress your emotions, you

37:25can also undermine your immune system,

37:28and then your immune system will not

37:30recognize the malignancy and not destroy

37:32it. It allows it to

37:35to proliferate.

37:37There was a British surgeon in the 1960s

37:40who operated on Am I talking too much?

37:42No, you know, there's no such thing on

37:43this podcast.

37:44Okay.

37:46Because I just get so passionate about

37:48this stuff.

37:49Uh and the reason I get so passionate

37:51about it is cuz it's so important in

37:52healing. And we as physicians could do

37:55so much more for people if we understood

37:57these scientific facts, but we don't as

37:59a profession. Anyway, there was a day

38:02There was a British um

38:04thoracic surgeon called David Kissen in

38:06the 1960s who noticed what I noticed in

38:10my practice, that um

38:14people emotionally repressed are more

38:15likely to get lung cancer.

38:18Now,

38:19it's true that

38:21most people who get lung cancers are

38:24smokers.

38:25But out of 100 smokers, only about 10 or

38:2815 get lung cancer.

38:30Which doesn't mean that lung smoking

38:32isn't the major contributor to lung

38:33cancer. It is.

38:36But he found that it was those of his

38:38patients that were emotionally repressed

38:40that were likely to get the lung cancer

38:42as a result of the smoking.

38:44And the more repressed they were, the

38:45less smoking they had to do in order to

38:47get lung cancer.

38:48This is This guy noticed this in the

38:501960s. So, emotional repression has huge

38:53implications physiologically. And

38:55emotional repression

38:57is one of the uh

38:59impacts of childhood trauma.

39:01Why?

39:02The child is born with

39:05some fundamental needs.

39:07One of them, as I've articulated

39:10earlier, is for attachment, for

39:12closeness, proximity,

39:14unconditional loving acceptance by um

39:18caring adults.

39:19Not just the human child,

39:21all mammalian children have that need.

39:24Without that, they don't survive.

39:26So, that's called attachment.

39:28The seeking of closeness and proximity

39:30for the purpose of being taken care of

39:33or to take care of the other. And our

39:34brains are wired for attachment.

39:37We have circuits in our brain

39:39dedicated to the attachment

39:40relationships. And that's so important

39:42all through our lives, but especially

39:44when we're infants and young children.

39:46Now, but we have another need. We've

39:49already talked about it. I just haven't

39:50named it. The other need is for

39:52authenticity. We used to be ourselves,

39:54connected to our bodies and our gut

39:56feelings.

39:57Because again, without access to our gut

39:59feelings, we don't survive.

40:01Uh out there in nature, where we evolved

40:03and where we lived until

40:0615,000 years ago. You know, and so that

40:10authenticity is very important, to be

40:12connected to yourself, so that you know

40:14when you're safe and when you're not. Uh

40:17you know what you want and what you

40:18don't want. You know how to say no when

40:20you don't want something. You know how

40:21to say yes when you do. That's

40:23authenticity. Auto the self, being

40:26ourselves. And

40:29to go back to Harry, his

40:31challenge all his life

40:33was that he wasn't allowed to be

40:35authentic. He had to play a certain role

40:37and fit into a certain set of

40:38expectations of how to be and who to be.

40:41And he could never figure out who am I

40:42really?

40:43You know, in that context. But that's so

40:45general. So many of us face that

40:47challenge of who are we really? Who are

40:49we authentically?

40:51As opposed to what's expected of us.

40:53Now, so we have these two needs.

40:55Attachment on the one hand

40:58authenticity in the other.

41:00Ideally, the two are not in conflict.

41:04Ideally, you can be in a relationship or

41:07I can be in a relationship where we can

41:09be ourselves and be accepted and

41:12connected with.

41:14And that's ideal all our lives.

41:17But what happens to a young child where

41:19if they're authentic, they're not

41:21accepted?

41:22So for example,

41:24um certain psychologists

41:26recommend that angry children should be

41:30uh punished for their anger.

41:32Rather than

41:34their anger being understood as to what

41:35it's all about and the child being

41:38taught different ways to express it.

41:40They just to be punished for it. And by

41:43different ways.

41:45By the way, if you're parent of a

41:472-year-old and if you don't frustrate

41:49your child, you're probably not doing a

41:51good job cuz your 2-year-old may want a

41:53cookie before dinner. And you say, "No,

41:55cookie before dinner." Uh

41:57I want a cookie, you know. And in a

41:59minute they're throwing a tantrum. Cuz

42:01what do even adults do when they're

42:02frustrated? They throw tantrums.

42:05Children, that's just what they do. They

42:07have no self-regulation yet.

42:09So the 2-year-old gets upset.

42:12Now you punish them.

42:14You give them a message, "You're not

42:16acceptable to me when you're angry. When

42:18you're angry.

42:19You have to be a certain way for me to

42:21accept you.

42:22Or you mustn't be sad. Cheer up.

42:25What's you know, what's wrong with you?

42:26You know?

42:28So when children are given this message

42:30of conditionality,

42:32that you're acceptable to me

42:35only if you behave in ways that I

42:38approve of,

42:40otherwise

42:41the attachment relationship is

42:43threatened,

42:44then a child is faced with this choice,

42:46which is not a choice at all.

42:48Do I stay attached to my parents?

42:51If my parent if my father's an

42:52alcoholic,

42:54and uh

42:56the only way I can find acceptance is by

43:00repressing my emotions and not show my

43:02sadness and my fear,

43:04then do I show my sadness and my fear or

43:06my anger?

43:08Or

43:10do I threaten the relationship? Well,

43:11there's no choice at all. The child will

43:14choose the attachment.

43:17And therefore they give up connection to

43:19themselves.

43:20Which is the essence of trauma. That

43:22disconnection from ourselves, not in my

43:24own words, in the words of other trauma

43:26theorists, um

43:28who I agree with,

43:29the worst aspect of trauma is the

43:31disconnection from ourselves. And we do

43:33that for the sake of making maintaining

43:35attachments. Which means for the rest of

43:37our lives, we'll be afraid to be

43:39ourselves.

43:41Is this what they call people pleasers?

43:42People uh exactly.

43:44So um

43:45Sheryl Crow, the American singer and

43:47musician, um

43:49developed breast cancer.

43:51And she said that since my breast cancer

43:53I've been a different person. Until

43:55then, I was always trying to please

43:56others.

43:58And now, and there was used to be voices

44:00in my head that were always telling me

44:01that I was wrong. I don't listen to them

44:03anymore.

44:05You know, so that uh

44:07people pleasers are the ones who gave

44:10up, not by conscious choice, but as a

44:12matter of survival, their authenticity

44:15in order to stay liked and accepted and

44:17attached with. But then they carried

44:19that on in the rest of their lives.

44:21And they're at risk. I always worry for

44:23the very nice people.

44:25I think this is fascinating. I looked at

44:28the back end of our YouTube channel and

44:30it says that since this channel started,

44:3269.9%

44:33of you that watch it frequently haven't

44:36yet hit the subscribe button. So, I have

44:38a favor to ask you. If you've ever

44:40watched this channel and enjoyed the

44:41content, if you're enjoying this episode

44:42right now, please can I ask a small

44:44favor? Please hit the subscribe button.

44:45Helps this channel more than I can

44:46explain. And I promise, if you do that,

44:49to return the favor, we will make this

44:51show better and better and better and

44:54better and better. That's a promise I'm

44:55willing to make you if you hit the

44:56subscribe button. Do we have a deal? You

44:58always worry for the very nice people.

45:01Yeah. You talk a

45:03a lot about that in When the Body Says

45:05No. Yeah. Why is being nice a potential

45:09risk to one's health?

45:12Well, there's two there's two places to

45:14be very nice from. One is just genuine

45:16human compassion and concern for others,

45:19but you're still grounded in yourself.

45:21That's great.

45:23But a lot of people are very nice

45:25because they afraid not to be.

45:28Because they weren't liked who they

45:29were, they weren't loved for who they

45:30were. Being nice was their way of

45:32gaining the the love and the attention

45:33they needed. Let me tell you a story. In

45:36uh

45:37uh in 1870, there was a Frenchman

45:40neurologist called Jean-Martin Charcot,

45:42who was the first one to describe

45:45multiple sclerosis, which is an

45:47inflammation of the nervous system. Very

45:49debilitating.

45:51And Charcot said

45:53in 1870, without any scientific

45:55research, but just from his own

45:57observation, that this was a

45:59stress-driven disease.

46:01Okay? Now, since then, there's been a

46:03lot of research to show how stress and

46:06trauma potentiate multiple sclerosis.

46:09And that's not even controversial. Not

46:11that any neurologists knows that, they

46:12don't get taught this stuff in medical

46:14school, but the research is there. And I

46:16presented it in in my books. And

46:19in any case,

46:20when I was writing When the Body Says

46:21No,

46:22a group of a self-help group of multiple

46:25sclerosis patients phoned me and said,

46:27"Would you come and talk to us?

46:29Cuz we understand you're working on

46:30stress and and illness."

46:32And I said, "Yeah, sure, I'll come and

46:33talk to you." And there's about 25

46:35people in the group.

46:37This is in Vancouver, Canada. And I gave

46:39them very tentatively apologetically

46:42apologetically, I said, "Look, I don't

46:43know this for sure, but the sense I get

46:46from my work in family practice and

46:48palliative care is that the people that

46:49develop your condition and other

46:52conditions tend to be people to be

46:53pleasers. That they have a they tend to

46:55have difficulty saying no. They tend to

46:57be very nice people."

46:59And I I said, "You know, I'm sorry if

47:01I've offended you. I don't mean to. I'm

47:02just giving you something very

47:04tentative. I haven't done the research

47:05yet. I'm just giving you my

47:07observations." They said, "You just

47:09described us."

47:11And they all said that. And there's a

47:13woman who says in the group who says, "I

47:16don't even know how to say no."

47:18I said, "Terrific. Give me $100 right

47:21now."

47:22She says,

47:23"Well, I don't I don't I don't have $100

47:25with me right now." I said, "It's not a

47:26problem." I said,

47:29"Outside the outside this building

47:30there's an ATM machine. We can go and

47:32after the meeting we can go out, you can

47:34get $100 and give it to me."

47:36She says, "Uh

47:38I'm not comfortable doing that."

47:41I said, "Listen, I'm just trying to get

47:44you to say no to a ridiculous demand by

47:48a perfect stranger to whom you you owe

47:51nothing whatsoever." She said, "I can't

47:53say the word."

47:56Because in childhood,

47:58and by the way, when you have kids,

48:00you're going to find out what the word

48:03no means because at age 1 and 1/2, all

48:05kids start saying no.

48:07They say that long before they say yes.

48:10Why?

48:11Because that no is their boundary

48:13defense of I have to figure out who I

48:15am. I'm not going to accede to your

48:17demands. I need to figure out what I

48:18want. Put your shoes on. No.

48:21And the parents think this is something

48:22wrong. There's nothing wrong. It's

48:23nature individuating the child.

48:27When families punish that, the child

48:30will repress the no and the body will

48:32say in the form of multiple sclerosis,

48:35for example.

48:36Niceness, ALS, amyotrophic lateral

48:39sclerosis or known in Britain as motor

48:41neuron disease.

48:43Um

48:44Stephen Hawking was diagnosed with it at

48:46age 21. He was told he'd be dead within

48:4910 2 years. He lived another 55 years.

48:52Doctors don't know everything. You know,

48:54um

48:55but there's been studies on ALS

48:57patients. They're extraordinarily nice.

49:00So, um

49:02there was a from a Cleveland Clinic in

49:05Ohio, a major referral clinic, two

49:08neurologists published a paper at an

49:10international

49:11ALS or motor neuron congress, why are

49:14ALS patients so nice? And what they

49:16described was that when people came to

49:19their

49:20office for diagnosis before they met the

49:23physician,

49:24they had underwent EDX electrodiagnostic

49:27testing of the nerves. And the

49:28technicians who performed the test would

49:31write on the side of the test, "This

49:32person can't have ALS. She's not nice

49:35enough." Or "I'm afraid this person has

49:37ALS. They're too nice. And the

49:39physicians, the neurologist specialist

49:41said, despite the shortness of their

49:43contact with their patients and the

49:45obviously unscientific nature of their

49:47observations, invariably, they turned

49:49out to be right.

49:52And then I called Dr. Wilburn who did

49:54this study and I said, what did the

49:56other staff what did the other

49:57neurologists say

49:58when you presented this? They said, oh,

50:00I said, yeah, we all noticed this. We

50:01just can't explain it. Since then,

50:03there's been a study where they've asked

50:05neurologists about their patients

50:08and the answer is, all their ALS

50:10patients are extraordinarily nice.

50:12Now, what do neurologists don't do

50:15is they don't make the connection that

50:17that we that that that that that

50:19niceness is a repression of healthy

50:20anger and that repression of healthy

50:22anger plays a role in the onset of that

50:26disease.

50:27So, it's not a accidental connection.

50:30So, why do I write very nice people? Cuz

50:32they're putting themselves at risk.

50:35Again, niceness can come from genuine

50:37concern for others,

50:40but that's not

50:42accompanied by an ignoring of yourself.

50:44You also care for yourself. Then you can

50:46be as nice as you want.

50:48But you also know how to say no.

50:50And you also know how to set boundaries.

50:52You don't know how to and you know how

50:53to be angry if you need to be.

50:55But the niceness that comes from

50:57self-repression,

50:58that's the one that hurts.

51:01There's clearly going to be a lot of

51:03very nice people hearing that.

51:05That know they're nice, that know

51:06they're people pleasers, that know

51:07they've experienced in their lives the

51:09consequences of

51:12putting everyone else before themselves.

51:14Yeah. I can It's funny, as you were

51:16talking, I was thinking about the person

51:17that I know who I think is nicest. Yeah.

51:21And that individual is sick all the

51:23time. Yeah. And I just connected that

51:26dot in my head. That I remember making a

51:28joke to her about, oh, you're sick

51:29you're sick a lot, like whatever, you're

51:31sick a lot. And then also thinking, oh

51:33my god, she is probably the nicest.

51:36Nice is an interesting word because that

51:38can be

51:39misconstrued as like, hiya, or like, you

51:41know, Yeah. saying nice things to

51:43someone else, but it's really at a

51:44deeper level.

51:46From what I've observed in that person,

51:47putting everyone else before them. Okay.

51:50Or chronically serving other people's

51:52needs before their own.

51:54Well, so, my contention is, as I said

51:57earlier, when people don't know how to

51:58say no, the body will say no for them in

52:00the form of illness. And for and for a

52:02lot of people with serious illness, the

52:04illness is the wake-up call.

52:06Yeah. And they actually learn. And when

52:08they do, that can make a difference to

52:10the course of their illness. Sometimes,

52:12not always, but I've seen examples of

52:14remarkable healing when people learn to

52:17say no and stop being people pleasers.

52:20And I just only wish

52:22that physicians understood this. So,

52:24when somebody comes to them with chronic

52:26eczema and all these other chronic

52:28conditions, they would not just provide

52:30the physical treatment, but they would

52:32also talk to the person about how much

52:34stress do they taking on. It's very

52:35stressful to take on everybody else's

52:38issues and ignoring your own. It's very

52:40stressful. That stress has a

52:42physiological impact on the body.

52:44How does someone who is a people pleaser

52:47how do they turn that ship around?

52:49Because it's

52:50they'll hear that, but because their

52:52niceness or their people pleasing is so

52:54deep within them and it started so

52:55early,

52:56they're not going to they're not going

52:58to change. Most of them won't change.

53:00Well,

53:02they may change if they get sick. You

53:05know, and if they learn something from

53:06it. I've had a lot of people tell me

53:07that. Um

53:09But it is happens very early. Uh but

53:12it's everybody's second nature, not

53:14their first nature. It's a very

53:16interesting phrase, second nature. It

53:18means that there is a first nature. Now,

53:19no baby is born as a people pleaser.

53:22No baby is lies there no one-day-old

53:24baby lies there thinking,

53:26gosh, um I'm hungry and wet and and and

53:30and lonely, but gosh, mom and dad have

53:32been worked so hard, I better not bother

53:34them.

53:35You know, babies will express their

53:37needs very volubly and very articulately

53:39and very loudly.

53:41That's how we're born. We're meant to be

53:43born that way.

53:44So, that this suppression of that is our

53:47second nature.

53:49And that first nature never goes away.

53:52We can always retrieve it. But you have

53:54to become conscious of it. So, and when

53:57the body says no, I lay out certain

53:58principles of healing. Um in the myth of

54:01normal, I will actually teach this

54:02exercise. Ask yourself this question,

54:05where in your life are you not saying

54:06no?

54:07Where where no wants to be said, but

54:09you're not saying it. Like let me

54:11actually let me give an example.

54:13Let's say I come to London and and and

54:16we're friends and I call you up, hey

54:17Stephen, here I am. Do you want to have

54:19coffee?

54:20Um

54:21but you've been up all night helping a

54:23sick friend.

54:24Or

54:25otherwise, you're just too stressed to

54:28want to meet me right now.

54:31Your desire is to say no.

54:34But what if you suppress that no?

54:36And you say yes for the fear of

54:38displeasing me or disappointing me or

54:40losing my friendship. If I say no, Gabor

54:43won't like me anymore.

54:45What's going to be the impact on you if

54:47you keep behaving that way?

54:50Physically, what's going to be the

54:51impact?

54:52I'm going to be going to be more tired,

54:55more exhausted, probably going to be

54:57more stressed. All that. Yeah. You're

54:59going to be resentful.

55:00Disconnected from Yeah, exactly. You

55:02know, so so it's not a this so

55:04this person, they need to the

55:07I I teach this exercise in the book

55:09about

55:10where am I not saying no?

55:12And

55:13what is my belief behind saying not

55:15saying no? I don't want to upset Gabor

55:17if he's coming to me.

55:17Exactly. And and and I and I depend on

55:19Gabor's liking. Yes. You know. Uh which

55:22means

55:23as a child, you depended on your

55:25parents' liking and you had to suppress

55:27your no's to be liked. Thirdly, where

55:29did I learn this belief that if I say

55:31no, I'm not likable or I'm guilty or I'm

55:33not worthwhile, you know? And the fourth

55:36question is, um

55:38who would I be without that belief?

55:41You know, uh and so if if your friend

55:43does this exercise regularly, believe

55:45me, she can turn it around. But it takes

55:47some practice. Who would I be without

55:50that belief? Yeah. When I

55:53put myself in her shoes or I put myself

55:55in a people pleaser's shoes, I wouldn't

55:57I'm a people pleaser in in certain

55:59environments, but I wouldn't say I'm

56:00generally. Yeah. Um I can imagine

56:03someone would respond to that and say,

56:04well, I'd lose all my friends.

56:06She'd find out who her friends really

56:08were.

56:09Because the real friends would celebrate

56:11it.

56:12They'd say, oh, finally, we're so glad

56:14to see you being yourself.

56:16The friends that were just using her or

56:18relying on her to be their supporter

56:21um unconditionally,

56:23uh will turn away. And I say this to

56:26people,

56:27this contest between attachment and

56:29authenticity can be a painful one,

56:32but you can decide which kind of pain

56:34you want.

56:35As a child, you had no choice.

56:38As an adult, it's true, if you're

56:40authentic, you might lose some

56:41attachment relationships. That's going

56:43to be painful. But which pain would you

56:45rather have? The pain of being authentic

56:47and losing some friendships that were no

56:49friendships at all?

56:51Or the pain of

56:53of of of losing yourself and all its

56:55implications and all its impacts on the

56:57body. So,

56:59um

57:00it it would be difficult for her and

57:02it's true, some relationships that she

57:04has now that would fade away,

57:06but my god, she'd also attract much more

57:09genuine and authentic relationships. And

57:11her true friends would really celebrate

57:13her.

57:14You know, now let me tell you something

57:16that just occurred to me, but forget it.

57:17The there was a

57:19um book written by an Australian nurse

57:21about 12 years ago.

57:23And she this nurse, like I used to work

57:25in palliative care with dying people,

57:26she works with in hospice with dying

57:28people. And these are people who tend to

57:30die of of of malignancy and chronic

57:32illness well before that time.

57:35And she wrote a book called the the the

57:37top five regrets of dying people.

57:39Bronnie Ware.

57:40And uh

57:42you know what the top regret was? That I

57:43wasn't being myself.

57:46That I wasn't true to myself.

57:48I wasn't being authentic. That's the top

57:50regret of dying people. And and the um

57:53the third one was that I didn't express

57:56my feelings for fear of disturbing or or

57:59displeasing others. So, authenticity is

58:02not just a new age concept. It's

58:04actually a central dynamic in staying

58:07healthy human beings.

58:10Oh, one more thing. So, yesterday I was

58:12in Westminster Abbey.

58:16And I was looking at all these

58:18beautifully and articulately worded

58:20monuments

58:22to all these colonialists.

58:26To all the people that oppressed and

58:29murdered

58:30and robbed

58:32and despoiled

58:34native people all over the world.

58:36They're the heroes of the British

58:37Empire.

58:39And I think one of the reasons there's

58:42such a strong pushback against the idea

58:44of trauma in this society

58:46is if you recognize trauma, which exists

58:49not only on the personal individual

58:51level, but very much on the collective

58:53level,

58:55the ruling elites in this country would

58:57have to come to terms with the fact that

58:59their wealth is based on the

59:01traumatization of foreign peoples, which

59:04incidentally

59:05was one of the crimes of Harry. Is that

59:07he pointed that out.

59:09The the that let's face it, the royalty,

59:12the wealth that I was born into

59:15was achieved at the despoilation and

59:17oppression of people around the world.

59:20So, trauma

59:21is not just a personal issue. It's very

59:23much a social and collective and

59:25historical issue. What's the cure?

59:28You know, cuz if we're if we're many of

59:29us are byproducts of generational trauma

59:32and we're seeking different ways to ease

59:34our pain through through the means of

59:36addiction, whether it's pornography or

59:38heroin or alcohol.

59:40Um we can't all afford expensive

59:43therapists.

59:46But we exhibit those self-destructive

59:48behavior patterns maybe every single

59:49day, maybe with social media addictions

59:51or whatever.

59:53What do we do?

59:55Unfortunately, uh the health care

59:57systems around the world have very poor

1:00:00appreciation of the emotional

1:00:03contribution to people's

1:00:05physical or mental ill health.

1:00:08And most physicians and most

1:00:10psychiatrists are not trained in it.

1:00:12Unfortunately, there's a huge um

1:00:15gap between science and research on the

1:00:17one hand and medical practice on the

1:00:19other. It's maddening sometimes to

1:00:21contemplate it. Um

1:00:24So, the first step would be to educate

1:00:26the the caregivers.

1:00:28Just educate doctors about the actual

1:00:30science of the mind-body connection and

1:00:33the impacts of trauma.

1:00:35Educate them.

1:00:36So, when you go to a physician with um

1:00:39say chronic fatigue

1:00:41or um

1:00:42inflammation of your joints,

1:00:45they don't just give you the necessary

1:00:46medication, which I'm not against, but

1:00:49they'll also ask you, "What's going on?"

1:00:52You know? So,

1:00:53that's the first thing.

1:00:55Second thing is let's prevent the

1:00:57problem.

1:00:58So,

1:00:59let's support young families to be

1:01:01really there for their kids.

1:01:03So that

1:01:04families don't have to struggle

1:01:05economically.

1:01:06And the parents are so stressed.

1:01:09Um

1:01:10As I may have mentioned, I've forgotten

1:01:12now,

1:01:13when parents are emotionally stressed,

1:01:15economically stressed, according to a

1:01:18number of studies, the kids' stress

1:01:20hormone levels are abnormal.

1:01:23And that is a harbinger of future

1:01:26disease.

1:01:28And so, let's look after young families.

1:01:31Let's make people feel secure.

1:01:33Uncertainty, lack of control,

1:01:36uh lack of information, these are some

1:01:38of the drivers of physiological stress.

1:01:41So, let's create a society where there's

1:01:43a more sense of mutual acceptance and

1:01:46commonality and and and social support.

1:01:50You know?

1:01:51Let teachers be educated that the kids

1:01:54who are so-called misbehaving are kids

1:01:56who are actually troubled.

1:01:58Troubled because of stuff at home and

1:02:01that the solution is not to exclude them

1:02:03or to punish them,

1:02:05but to actually give them emotional

1:02:06support in the classroom and in the

1:02:08schools. Let the schools be

1:02:11the human brain,

1:02:13according to a Harvard study, develops

1:02:16um

1:02:18from before birth. It's an ongoing

1:02:20process that begins before birth and

1:02:22continues into adulthood.

1:02:25The necessary conditions for human brain

1:02:27development is safe,

1:02:29uh supportive emotional relationship

1:02:31with adults.

1:02:33Let everybody who deals with children,

1:02:35from social workers to teachers to

1:02:37daycare workers to kindergarten um

1:02:39supervisors to to parents, understand

1:02:42the emotional needs of kids.

1:02:44And and provide that safety. Uh let the

1:02:47justice system, so-called, about which

1:02:50there's very little just,

1:02:51um

1:02:52uh

1:02:53in Canada,

1:02:5550% of the women in jail are indigenous.

1:02:58They make up 6% of the population. 50%

1:03:01of the jail population. You call that

1:03:03justice? You take the most traumatized

1:03:05people

1:03:06who then act out their traumas and then

1:03:08you punish them for it. So, let the

1:03:10medical system, let the educational

1:03:12system, let the legal system understand

1:03:15child development and trauma.

1:03:18Now, in terms of the adult, to answer

1:03:19your question more specifically, so

1:03:21there's a social answer, Mhm. but then

1:03:24there's the individual answer.

1:03:26Yeah, a lot of people can't afford good

1:03:28therapy. It's true. It's expensive and

1:03:30and and even if there's a lot of people

1:03:32who are get therapy but not getting

1:03:33appropriate therapy.

1:03:35Well, if you can't afford therapy,

1:03:38go to the library, read some books.

1:03:41My own, but not just my own. I could

1:03:44rattle off five other books you should

1:03:45read. Read Dick Schwartz's

1:03:48book on internal family systems called

1:03:50No Bad Parts. Read Bessel van der Kolk's

1:03:52book on trauma called The Body Keeps the

1:03:54Score. Read Peter Levine's book Waking

1:03:56the Tiger on trauma. Read Oprah

1:03:59Winfrey's and Bruce Perry's book What

1:04:01Happened to You? Read Bruce Perry's book

1:04:04called uh

1:04:05The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog.

1:04:08Um

1:04:09I mean, have you even read Peter Levine?

1:04:11Oh, yeah.

1:04:12Oh, good. Oh, good. Wonderful. I'm glad

1:04:13to hear that. He's one of my mentors and

1:04:15friends.

1:04:16And we often work together. Uh so, this

1:04:19is and and and all of these books will

1:04:22have some

1:04:23advice about how to help yourself,

1:04:26including my books. Then, there's a lot

1:04:29of stuff on the internet. So, this

1:04:31uh the interview that you and I had a

1:04:33year ago,

1:04:34I checked this morning, has been seen by

1:04:362 and 1/2 million people. I'm sure it's

1:04:38helped a lot of people. It's a lot that

1:04:41you can get, just, you know, freely.

1:04:42Nobody's going to get charged to

1:04:45you know, on the YouTube. Um

1:04:47lots of my talks are available. Lots of

1:04:49talks by other really good people

1:04:50available. Do that. There's self-help

1:04:53groups

1:04:54of all kinds.

1:04:55Um Is there a risk here? This is what

1:04:57the the one side of the narrative

1:05:00sometimes argue that you can kind of

1:05:02over-traumatize

1:05:04your life in terms of over-labeling

1:05:07everything that you do as a trauma. So,

1:05:09you know, and

1:05:11I mean, the

1:05:12that always happens, right? When when

1:05:14people become

1:05:15aware of something, they become

1:05:17over-aware and they start over-labeling

1:05:19and saying, "That's a trauma response.

1:05:20That's a trauma response. That's a

1:05:22trauma response." And they kind of live

1:05:23with a feeling that they are inherently

1:05:25broken.

1:05:26Yeah, but my point is that nobody's

1:05:28broken.

1:05:29Um Actually, I talked about our first

1:05:32nature.

1:05:33That's always there.

1:05:35When people recover, it's an interesting

1:05:37word, recovery. What does it mean to

1:05:38recover?

1:05:40When you recover something, what are you

1:05:41doing?

1:05:43Going back to You're finding it.

1:05:46Oh, yeah. Actually, yeah. That's the

1:05:47definition of the word, isn't it? What

1:05:48do people find when they recover? They

1:05:50find their true selves.

1:05:52That's what they'll tell you. That true

1:05:54self never went away. Nobody's damaged

1:05:56goods. Nobody's broken.

1:05:58To talk about trauma is not to

1:05:59disempower people, but to empower them.

1:06:02If I learn that my response to the

1:06:04British media

1:06:06and the Harry

1:06:09issue

1:06:10was

1:06:11actually it's nothing to do with the

1:06:12present moment. It's actually some old

1:06:15programming.

1:06:17Oh, okay. Now I can drop it. Are you

1:06:19glad it happened?

1:06:20I'm glad that everything happened cuz

1:06:21everything is learning.

1:06:23Nothing in this this life is wasted if

1:06:25you know how to use it properly. And um

1:06:28so, what I'm saying is that

1:06:30to under- to to be aware of trauma is

1:06:32not to lose power, but to gain it

1:06:33because it's not an excuse. I can't keep

1:06:36going to my wife and saying, "I'm being

1:06:38resentful of you and and punishing you

1:06:40because my mother didn't take good care

1:06:41of me when I was a baby cuz she was too

1:06:43stressed."

1:06:44You know?

1:06:45I mean, that that that's lack of

1:06:48responsibility.

1:06:49But to for me to understand that my

1:06:52demands on my wife to take care of me

1:06:54like a mother would of a baby

1:06:56actually is my trauma response, then I

1:06:58can drop it. Cuz I'm not a baby anymore.

1:07:01I don't need

1:07:02I'm not that helpless. I'm not that

1:07:04resourceless.

1:07:06Um I'm not that um

1:07:07ungrounded. So, that

1:07:10when you recognize trauma, it's not in

1:07:11order to use it as an excuse, but to

1:07:14actually to overcome it.

1:07:15That's the whole point.

1:07:17When we talked about the suppression of

1:07:19our emotions and anger, you used the

1:07:21word healthy anger. Yeah. When you you

1:07:23know, cuz there's a there's a risk,

1:07:24isn't there, when you're

1:07:25saying that anger can be a positive

1:07:27thing, that people will then assume that

1:07:29berating someone behind a counter or a

1:07:32waitress in a restaurant because they

1:07:34got one item on your order wrong is

1:07:36standing up for your boundaries. I've

1:07:38done it.

1:07:39Yeah.

1:07:41No, it's not.

1:07:42So, healthy anger is in the moment.

1:07:44And it's just a boundary defense.

1:07:47It's not outrage. It's you're in my

1:07:50space, get out.

1:07:52That's its purpose. That's its only

1:07:53purpose.

1:07:54Or to protect something like a You want

1:07:57to see anger?

1:07:58Um

1:08:01Try and tell a mother bear

1:08:03not to

1:08:04be close to their

1:08:06to their cubs, you know? You'll find out

1:08:07what healthy mother anger is all about,

1:08:09you know? That's just healthy.

1:08:12The kind of rage you're talking about,

1:08:15have you ever had that kind of rage?

1:08:18Definitely on a spectrum. I've got I've

1:08:20got So, the reason I struggle with the

1:08:21answer is because I've got a friend

1:08:22that's fully shown me what the

1:08:25that's the extreme side of that is,

1:08:27where we used to call it the red mist

1:08:29with him, where he would literally lose

1:08:30control.

1:08:31is incidentally what Harry used to call

1:08:32his anger.

1:08:33Oh, really?

1:08:34Yeah. Yeah. My friend So, my friend um

1:08:37my friend, one of my best friends in the

1:08:38world, he he talks about this all the

1:08:39time is he had you could trigger him by

1:08:42saying something, usually by

1:08:44saying he was wrong about something.

1:08:46Yeah. Or something like that. Yeah. And

1:08:48then he would just lose it. So, I

1:08:52remember the first

1:08:53the last time it happened was

1:08:55and the pandemic rolled in, I was

1:08:58staying with him

1:08:59at in his apartment cuz the lockdown and

1:09:02I was living in America at the time. And

1:09:04we were discussing the virus. And I said

1:09:06to him, um I think people that are older

1:09:10and that have certain health um

1:09:13situations are more at risk. And he said

1:09:15to me, "No, people that are younger are

1:09:17more at risk." And I said and I showed

1:09:19it an NHS um website which said, "No,

1:09:21it's people that are older are more at

1:09:22risk."

1:09:22Yeah. And he just went into this red

1:09:24mist. Okay. He was totally triggered and

1:09:26lost control of his emotions. Okay, so

1:09:28if you observed him then, what you would

1:09:30have noticed is

1:09:31remember what I said about healthy

1:09:32anger? It's in the present moment. Once

1:09:34it's done its job, it's gone.

1:09:35Yeah. Your friend, the angrier he gets,

1:09:37the angrier he gets.

1:09:38Yeah. So the the rage just keeps

1:09:40building on itself. Now we talk about a

1:09:42fit of anger.

1:09:44It's a good word.

1:09:45You know where else we talk about fits?

1:09:47It's epileptic fits.

1:09:49In epileptic fits,

1:09:50certain electrical miswiring in the

1:09:53brain then recruits other brain circuits

1:09:56and it gets more and more and more until

1:09:57whole the whole body shaking and the

1:09:59person may even lose consciousness and

1:10:01soil themselves and so on. That's an

1:10:03epileptic fit. A fit of anger is the

1:10:05same. The the a fit of rage is the same.

1:10:09So that the more severe it gets, the

1:10:12more of his brain circuits it recruits.

1:10:13So rather than expending itself,

1:10:15doing its job and then being gone, it

1:10:19actually gets worse and worse and worse.

1:10:21That's unhealthy anger and triggering is

1:10:23a good word.

1:10:24Because look at what the word triggering

1:10:26means.

1:10:27Now if you look at a weapon,

1:10:28how big a part of the weapon is the

1:10:30trigger?

1:10:32This big.

1:10:33For the trigger to set off anything,

1:10:35there has to be ammunition there. There

1:10:37has to be

1:10:38um explosive material there.

1:10:42So your friend is carrying a lot of

1:10:44explosive material. I can tell you, your

1:10:47friend never felt understood or

1:10:49validated as a child. And he's still

1:10:51carrying the rage of that. So you

1:10:53trigger him

1:10:54and then

1:10:56by disagreeing with him and all the pain

1:10:59of invalidation, all the rage of not

1:11:01being understood now gets triggered and

1:11:03recruits more and more of his brain

1:11:05circuits. Now I can tell you something.

1:11:07Healthy anger is essential for our

1:11:09physical integrity.

1:11:10That rage, in the absolute in the in the

1:11:13aftermath of a rage episode, your risk

1:11:16of a heart attack or stroke doubles for

1:11:18for the next 2 hours, according to

1:11:20studies. Because what happens? Your

1:11:22blood pressure goes up,

1:11:23your blood vessels narrow, and the

1:11:25clotting factors in your blood increase.

1:11:27So of course you are at more risk. So

1:11:29the repression of anger can lead to

1:11:31chronic illness, but so can rage lead to

1:11:35uh heart attacks and uh and strokes and

1:11:38so on. So anger is a delicate thing.

1:11:41Shall I say something about my friend

1:11:42that we found out because he then went

1:11:45to a childhood psychologist Oh, good.

1:11:47himself. And that's why I said that was

1:11:49the last time. So you can imagine that

1:11:50was 3 years ago. Yeah. The pandemic, 2 3

1:11:52years ago. He went to a childhood

1:11:53psychologist and what they uncovered

1:11:55through their work was that as a kid he

1:11:57he was not only um a foot shorter than

1:12:00all the other kids,

1:12:01Yeah. but he was both dyslexic and

1:12:03struggled a lot intellectually. So um

1:12:06the people around him and on his report

1:12:07card

1:12:09basically called him stupid as a child.

1:12:11And then he actually found a text I

1:12:12think he found a text message at some

1:12:14point between his mom and his nan Yeah.

1:12:15where they were diminishing his chances

1:12:17of success. And he grew up with this

1:12:20deep sense of like I am not intelligent.

1:12:25A deep deep sense of it. And it's come

1:12:27out in all of these ways as an adult.

1:12:28And that you're right.

1:12:31Yeah. That's what was going on in that

1:12:32moment. I was challenging I was taking

1:12:33him back probably. Well, and you know

1:12:35what? That again to come back to Harry,

1:12:36that's what happened to him.

1:12:38They called him stupid and thicko and

1:12:41naughty.

1:12:43And he was none of none of those things.

1:12:45He just had trouble of concentrating and

1:12:47being attention because of all the

1:12:48stress.

1:12:50My friend has ADHD as well. Yeah, yeah.

1:12:52And and so in his book he describes that

1:12:55he'd been told he had post-traumatic

1:12:56stress. I didn't diagnose him with all

1:12:58this stuff. It's in his book. I said,

1:13:00"You know what? But I think given how

1:13:02you you were distracted as a kid, you

1:13:04had trouble paying attention,

1:13:06um they called you stupid,

1:13:09this is ADD. And um

1:13:12I wasn't saying he's got a disease. I

1:13:14was saying you actually that was a

1:13:16normal response that you had to an

1:13:18abnormal situation

1:13:20where that you were under a lot of

1:13:21stress and they made you wrong for it.

1:13:23They called you naughty. They called you

1:13:24stupid. They called you thicko. You're

1:13:26not any of that.

1:13:28Now the whole bunch of British

1:13:29psychiatrists got their knickers tied in

1:13:31a knot because I made that diagnosis,

1:13:34you know.

1:13:35Um

1:13:36My God, people. I was saying to the guy,

1:13:39"You don't have a disease. You have a

1:13:40normal response

1:13:42to abnormal circumstances. You were not

1:13:44stupid ever."

1:13:46But but children undergo this character

1:13:48assassination like you offended. And

1:13:50imagine the rage inside him.

1:13:53So when you disagree with him, you're

1:13:54triggering all that.

1:13:57It's just that's just how it works. Now

1:13:58interestingly enough, people call me

1:14:00stupid.

1:14:03That's not a trigger for me. Yeah, it's

1:14:04not for me. Because I know I'm not. You

1:14:07know, I I always grew up with a sense of

1:14:09my own intelligence, not to overstate

1:14:11it, but I know never had any doubt about

1:14:13it. But certain things you can do Yeah.

1:14:16like not see me

1:14:18and that'll trigger me.

1:14:20And for context for anybody that doesn't

1:14:22know why you not being seen triggers

1:14:25you,

1:14:26Well, look.

1:14:28I was born you know, I

1:14:30may have mentioned this last year. So I

1:14:31was born

1:14:322 months before the Nazis occupied

1:14:34Budapest. Then they started

1:14:36exterminating all the Hungarian Jews. So

1:14:38literally, my life was under threat cuz

1:14:41they didn't see me as a human being.

1:14:43They saw me as vermin.

1:14:45You know, now not that I knew that

1:14:46directly, but my mother, can you imagine

1:14:49what it was like for her to have a

1:14:512-month-old and living under the risk of

1:14:53death all the time for a whole year.

1:14:56And then

1:14:58as I mentioned before, she gave me to a

1:14:59stranger to save my life.

1:15:02And I didn't see her for 5 weeks. Well,

1:15:04that's not being seen. And my father's

1:15:07not there to see me cuz he's in forced

1:15:08labor.

1:15:09So literally, not being seen threatened

1:15:11my life.

1:15:13So no wonder

1:15:14when people uh

1:15:16when that happens now, you know,

1:15:19that for me is the trigger.

1:15:21Now the of course the answer is

1:15:25is to see myself.

1:15:27If I fully see myself, it doesn't matter

1:15:29whether you see me or not. You know, so

1:15:31if you see me,

1:15:34if you're not seeing me, if you're

1:15:35distorting

1:15:38who I am in your mind and in your words

1:15:41bothers me, it's only because I'm still

1:15:43counting on you

1:15:45uh or other people

1:15:47to see me cuz I don't know how to see

1:15:49myself. If I'm fully confident in

1:15:50myself, I'll say, "Gee, it's too bad,

1:15:53you know, uh Steven doesn't see me.

1:15:55Well, maybe we'll talk talk about it or

1:15:58maybe

1:15:59he'll never understand it, but

1:16:01I don't live in his mind." How do I

1:16:03fully see myself?

1:16:04It's hard to do, right?

1:16:06It's it's it's hard to do because

1:16:09when you were seen, it's not hard to do.

1:16:13Because you children see themselves

1:16:15through their parents' eyes. Yeah.

1:16:17But when you were not seen, then you

1:16:20have to learn it. This is one of the

1:16:22things to go back to meditation. That's

1:16:25not the only way. First of all, notice

1:16:27all the ways that you're not seeing

1:16:28yourself. Like 2 days ago, when I had

1:16:31this anxiety about how maybe I didn't

1:16:33give my best talk on Monday evening,

1:16:35you know what? I did my best. May not

1:16:37have been perfect, but I prepared for

1:16:39it. I put myself out there for 2 hours.

1:16:42And um

1:16:43I spoke a lot of truth.

1:16:45Might not have been the best, but so

1:16:47what? But

1:16:48but but but at that moment I wasn't

1:16:50seeing myself.

1:16:51You know, I could still lose it. So

1:16:53meditation,

1:16:55which is the form of meditation that at

1:16:57least I am learning,

1:16:59is about just noticing and seeing what's

1:17:01going on inside without judgment.

1:17:04So being aware.

1:17:06So let's practice. And you also

1:17:07suggested

1:17:09removing the things from your life that

1:17:11will stop you from seeing yourself, like

1:17:14social media.

1:17:16Well, because that can be a lot of

1:17:19friction.

1:17:19remove social media from my life, but

1:17:21what I can remove is my attachment to

1:17:23it.

1:17:25For example,

1:17:26I don't have to look at the comments

1:17:28on all my talks on YouTube. Who says

1:17:32what, who likes it, who doesn't like it.

1:17:34You know, I'm not on Facebook. I don't

1:17:36have a

1:17:37I have a professional Facebook page, but

1:17:39I don't

1:17:40administer it.

1:17:41Um

1:17:42but people go on Facebook

1:17:44and who says what, who likes me, who

1:17:46doesn't like me.

1:17:47You know,

1:17:48they can wean themselves off that. So we

1:17:50may not be able to stay off social media

1:17:53um

1:17:54to write my books. Thank God for the

1:17:57internet. But I don't have to

1:18:00be attached to it. So it's it's it's

1:18:02it's using it, but not letting it use

1:18:04you.

1:18:06Which is very hard.

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1:19:52Yeah, the the social media and all these

1:19:53things, these stimuli, they I I feel

1:19:55like they've

1:19:56I'm concerned that many of us are living

1:19:58in a state of chronic stress, mild

1:20:03background Yeah. stress. Yeah. And I say

1:20:05that a lot because the amount of times

1:20:07that I catch myself, I spoke to James

1:20:09Nestor who talks a lot about breathing

1:20:10and breath. Yeah.

1:20:11And the amount of times that I now catch

1:20:13myself very shallow in breath Mhm. after

1:20:16just looking at my my phone or thinking

1:20:19about something.

1:20:21Yeah. Let's get my get some oxygen back

1:20:22into me. In bed at 1:00 a.m. as I'm

1:20:24trying to sleep, catch my breath being

1:20:26shallow. During this podcast when I

1:20:27start thinking about something, my

1:20:28breath gets really shallow. Looking at

1:20:30my phone, my breath gets really shallow.

1:20:31I live in this

1:20:33I feel like I'm living in a state of

1:20:34like constant subtle

1:20:37background stress. Yeah.

1:20:39Well, I'm I'm glad you mentioned breath

1:20:41because um

1:20:43it's one of the

1:20:44to go back to the question of what

1:20:45people can do for themselves, they can

1:20:47learn to breathe.

1:20:48And Eckhart Tolle is a spiritual

1:20:50teacher. Um

1:20:52he says that

1:20:54um

1:20:55rather than go to retreats and

1:20:57therapists, just take a few conscious

1:20:59breaths several times a day.

1:21:01I mean, not that not to dismiss the

1:21:03other, but that's more important than

1:21:05anything else.

1:21:06And interestingly enough, the Buddha,

1:21:09when he was teaching his monks,

1:21:12in fact, one of the Buddha's assistants,

1:21:14Ananda,

1:21:15asked him um

1:21:17"Oh holy one, do you still meditate?"

1:21:19And he said, "Yes." "And what kind of

1:21:21meditation do you practice?" says

1:21:22Ananda.

1:21:24And uh Buddha says, "Observing the

1:21:26breath." So, in Buddhist meditation, and

1:21:29I'm not here to advocate for any

1:21:30particular pathway, and I'm not a

1:21:33practitioner of any religion, but

1:21:36he this this this is very wise man.

1:21:40Um he taught

1:21:42awareness of breath as the most

1:21:43important portal into into reality. What

1:21:46do you think that the antidote is for

1:21:50the way we've designed our lives to be

1:21:52constant in this sort of stressful

1:21:53stimulation and

1:21:55cuz we're clearly I was just wondering

1:21:57if human beings are supposed to endure

1:21:59this much constant stimulus and stress

1:22:01in their lives, and with, you know,

1:22:02chronic inflammation and all these kinds

1:22:04of things are now killing people at

1:22:06alarming rates. The the you know, the

1:22:08the diseases that are caused by

1:22:09inflammation.

1:22:11What can we do about our stress? And is

1:22:13it is it okay? Maybe it's okay.

1:22:16Well, um it's the norm, so you can say

1:22:19it's normal. Is it okay? Well,

1:22:22the question is to be answered by

1:22:24looking at what the impacts are.

1:22:26And what are the impacts?

1:22:28You know, the impacts are very serious.

1:22:31For um you can see it on the individual

1:22:34level and in terms of mental health

1:22:35conditions, as I said earlier, are

1:22:37burgeoning internationally. Um

1:22:41autoimmune conditions are uh but if you

1:22:43look at it on also on the social level,

1:22:46there's more conflict, there's more um

1:22:48division, there's more intolerance

1:22:52in our culture than it has been for

1:22:54quite a while. These are the impacts of

1:22:56the stressful culture that we live in.

1:22:58So, is it okay?

1:23:00Yeah, if you want to if you want this,

1:23:01it's okay. But if you don't, it's not

1:23:04okay. It depends what you want.

1:23:06Relationships. Yeah.

1:23:08Romantic relationships. Yeah. Um

1:23:11thought a lot about the role that our

1:23:12trauma plays in our ability to form

1:23:15relationships. Obviously, society's

1:23:17changed quite profoundly in the last

1:23:19couple of decades. Different sort of

1:23:21gender transformations have caused

1:23:23certain mismatches and difficulties with

1:23:25people connecting. The world has gone

1:23:27very digital now, so dating apps run the

1:23:29run a lot of dating. I think 50% of

1:23:31people originally meet online. That's

1:23:33their first point of contact. Dating is

1:23:35very very hard for people, and there's a

1:23:36lot of people that are kind of giving up

1:23:37on it. Mhm. Um attachment, dating,

1:23:41trauma,

1:23:42um I've come to learn that we are

1:23:44mirrors. I think I found love in my life

1:23:46when

1:23:47not when I

1:23:49discovered anything externally, but when

1:23:51I did a lot of work to figure out the

1:23:54the barriers that were standing in my

1:23:56way of connection.

1:23:57Well, you just answered your own

1:23:58question.

1:23:59Oh, really? Yeah.

1:24:00We can't form proper relationships until

1:24:03we have the capacity to be alone

1:24:06and be comfortable with ourselves.

1:24:08You know, and the more comfortable you

1:24:10can be alone,

1:24:12which is different from being lonely, by

1:24:13the way.

1:24:14Um the more capacity to be actually to

1:24:16be to be alone to be with yourself and

1:24:19to grow on yourself

1:24:20in your own truth, the more likely

1:24:22you're able to form meaningful and

1:24:24positive relationships.

1:24:26And rather than asking me,

1:24:28a lot of people want into relationships

1:24:29to solve their problems.

1:24:31Then there's the initial in love phase

1:24:33where everything is just ideal, you

1:24:35know, and then reality hits.

1:24:38And then all of a sudden, that person

1:24:40who you're so infatuated with becomes

1:24:43your enemy, and you hate them so much.

1:24:45You know, I mean,

1:24:47I've experienced such hatred for my wife

1:24:50over the years.

1:24:52And uh

1:24:53when I've been disappointed or

1:24:55dissatisfied, you know, because I was

1:24:58looking to her to fill me with, and

1:25:01nobody can fill you from the outside.

1:25:04So, so once you no longer need it,

1:25:07um

1:25:08once you no longer are dependent on it,

1:25:12then you can enter into a healthy

1:25:14relationship. Or, to put it more

1:25:16positively,

1:25:18a relationship can be a real ground for

1:25:21mutual growth.

1:25:23So, you can enter into a relationship.

1:25:26You're not going to be perfect. You're

1:25:27never going to be perfect.

1:25:29Um

1:25:30carry a certain degree of trauma,

1:25:32certain degree of dysfunction, certain

1:25:33things that trigger you, as we said

1:25:34earlier.

1:25:36But you But if both people are committed

1:25:38to the truth, which my wife and I have

1:25:40been. I mean, that's one thing you can

1:25:41say about ourselves, you know.

1:25:43For all the stuff that we've been

1:25:45through, ultimately the truth mattered

1:25:46more than who's right and who's wrong.

1:25:49So, if you're committed to the truth and

1:25:51working it out, and if the fundamental

1:25:54love is there, then you can grow

1:25:56together. And so, for me,

1:25:58the relationship has been the most

1:26:00important growth

1:26:02growing ground of my life, not the

1:26:03therapy that I've had or the reading

1:26:05that I've done. Uh not that I'm

1:26:07dismissing any of that,

1:26:09but the actual relationship has been my

1:26:11um

1:26:12most important schooling

1:26:15in in in in how to become authentic.

1:26:17There's no real chance of a good

1:26:18relationship if one or more parties in

1:26:21that relationship aren't committed to

1:26:22truth and they're committed to

1:26:24being right or to victory or It happens

1:26:27all the time.

1:26:28As I said earlier, people always meet at

1:26:30the same level of of of of emotional

1:26:34development or trauma resolution,

1:26:37so that water finding its own level.

1:26:40But when one person starts growing and

1:26:42the other doesn't,

1:26:44it becomes impossible.

1:26:46Either the person that does the growing

1:26:48gives it up and goes back to their

1:26:49previous self, which is almost

1:26:51impossible,

1:26:52or the other person is challenged to

1:26:54start growing themselves, or they're

1:26:56going to split.

1:26:58That That's just what's going to happen.

1:27:00And

1:27:01again, to go back to the situation

1:27:03between men and women, this is what

1:27:05tends to happen, and I've seen it

1:27:08in my own marriage, I've seen it in as a

1:27:10physician, as an observer of human

1:27:12beings.

1:27:14The couple are kind of getting along,

1:27:16but then the children come along.

1:27:18Now, the mother's caring energy has to

1:27:20go towards the children,

1:27:23where it needs to go.

1:27:25The father

1:27:27may feel now a bit of a

1:27:29their nose is a bit out of joint, cuz

1:27:31now they're not getting the attention.

1:27:33And now the woman has a decision to

1:27:35make. Do I look after the 3-day-old baby

1:27:38or the 3-month-old baby, or do I look

1:27:40after the 35-year-old baby? And

1:27:44to the extent that the mother chooses to

1:27:46look after the 35-year-old baby, she's

1:27:49depriving the 3-month-old.

1:27:51A lot of women then make a choice that I

1:27:54need to look after my kids, and I can't

1:27:55put all this caring energy

1:27:57mothering caring energy into my husband

1:27:59anymore.

1:28:00And then relationships get into trouble

1:28:02cuz the guys can't stand it.

1:28:04I've seen this over and over and over.

1:28:06I'm not saying it's universal, but it's

1:28:08very common.

1:28:10Sex.

1:28:12In your practice, I imagine you've come

1:28:15across this quite quite often where

1:28:16there's a sexless relationship, and

1:28:19that's causing issues. What is typically

1:28:22the true cause of that? Mhm. Um that

1:28:26disconnect in the in the with intimacy,

1:28:27with sex, in the bedroom, cuz a lot of

1:28:29people are struggling with that. Yeah.

1:28:32Well, first of all,

1:28:33I think um today we jump into sexuality

1:28:36way too early.

1:28:38In other words,

1:28:39um

1:28:41we talk about intimacy,

1:28:43but intimacy really means the innermost.

1:28:46And we tend to have physical intimacy

1:28:48before we have emotional intimacy.

1:28:50So that um people jump into bed rather

1:28:53quickly. I'm not being prude or I'm not

1:28:54being prudish here.

1:28:56I'm not

1:28:57prescribing that you should only get

1:28:59have sex when you get married or

1:29:00anything like that.

1:29:01But when we enter into sexuality early,

1:29:05without the emotional intimacy and the

1:29:06emotional authenticity,

1:29:09then the sex become divorced becomes

1:29:11divorced from our

1:29:13uh our real needs.

1:29:15And especially for women

1:29:17who who tend to

1:29:20And I I can't speak of everybody, but in

1:29:22general, women tend want to have more

1:29:25intimacy emotionally.

1:29:27Um

1:29:28that becomes very hard. And if the

1:29:29emotional intimacy doesn't follow, sex

1:29:32becomes kind of mechanical.

1:29:34Becomes mechanical. Yeah.

1:29:35Um

1:29:36So, that's one big reason. The other

1:29:38reason we already talked about this sort

1:29:40of parenting dynamic between the

1:29:41genders. Yeah. Uh now, I know we're only

1:29:44talking about the two major genders now.

1:29:46There's all kinds of gender variations

1:29:48these days and uh but these dynamics

1:29:50exist in all kinds of context. So, that

1:29:52when one partner is doing all the

1:29:54emotional carrying or most of the

1:29:55emotional carrying, this is parent-child

1:29:57relationship that really deadens the

1:29:59sexual drive.

1:30:01You know what I'm saying here? Sorry?

1:30:02Mercia Pye.

1:30:04She's a a psychologist. She actually

1:30:06said to me the other day, "Never call

1:30:08your partner mommy or daddy." Yeah. For

1:30:10this very reason. Yeah, well, oh oh

1:30:12good. That's that's a good way to put

1:30:14it.

1:30:15I I think it's because we um we put

1:30:18sexuality um

1:30:20And this society, of course, just

1:30:22glorifies sexuality.

1:30:24You know, and if you look at some of the

1:30:27most famous sex symbols, who were they?

1:30:30Um abused women.

1:30:32You know, like a Marilyn Monroe, deeply

1:30:34traumatized child.

1:30:36And abused

1:30:39as an adult by President Kennedy and

1:30:42just about everybody.

1:30:44And she was the

1:30:46the woman everyone wanted to sleep with.

1:30:49You know, so that is really distorted

1:30:51sexuality here. And for women

1:30:53especially,