⁠How Michael Phelps Built a Champion Mindset: Obsession & Discipline | FO458 Raj Shamani

0:00Phelps, of course, is the most decorated

0:02Olympian [music] of all time. If he was

0:04a country, he would have the third most

0:07swimming medals ever.

0:10Where did this obsession of winning come

0:12from?

0:13>> Hating to lose.

0:14I hate to lose more than I enjoy

0:16winning.

0:17How did this come up?

0:18>> One thing my coach took out of my

0:20vocabulary was the word can't, because

0:22it's going to be exponentially harder

0:24since you told yourself you can't. 28

0:27medals. The second youngest male swimmer

0:29to qualify for a US Olympic team. And

0:32what goes on in your head before even

0:33the race has started?

0:34>> When I'm on the block, nothing. I'm like

0:36a dog trying to get out of the cage.

0:38Like I'm just

0:39Did you use any psychological warfare

0:43sort of tactic against your competitors?

0:46I'm taking care of me and I'm focusing

0:47[music] on what I need in that moment. I

0:49don't give a [ __ ] about my competitors

0:50in that moment. When I'm on the pool

0:51deck, it is a full-blown war.

0:55I want to absolutely destroy them.

0:57Was there anyone you secretly feared as

0:59a competitor?

1:00No, I beat everybody.

1:02I don't care who you are. I'm the shark

1:04in the water.

1:06If I smell that smallest ounce of blood,

1:08I'm going to destroy you. Watch me take

1:10it. Tell me about that phase, which is

1:12your 2008 Beijing, where you won eight

1:15gold medals. History in Beijing for

1:17Michael Phelps.

1:19Eight for eight. For those two years, I

1:22felt unbeatable in the pool. I literally

1:24felt like there wasn't a single soul on

1:26the planet that could touch me, that

1:27could beat me.

1:28In an interview which you gave, the

1:30interviewer asked you that you have won

1:3228 Olympic medals in your life, and you

1:34said no, there's 23 that count.

1:36>> I medaled in 28 out of 30 of my races at

1:38the Olympic Games. 23 are only the ones

1:41that we need to talk to. Silver is

1:42losing? You're second, you lost. Third

1:44place, you lost. I don't talk about the

1:46other five. It's going to be gold.

1:48It's going to be

1:49a new world record.

1:51Once I did make that Olympic team, when

1:53I got fifth, I was pissed because I

1:55didn't want a piece of paper that

1:57somebody said congratulations, you came

1:58and competed. I came because I wanted

2:00something around my neck.

2:02I'm there to hear my national anthem

2:03play. That's it.

2:07Tell me the first time you won the gold

2:09medal.

2:09>> I couldn't get caught up in that one

2:11moment, even though it was special. So,

2:13that gold medal is like, all right,

2:15finished, what's next?

2:19Walk me through four, five techniques or

2:21certain things that you would do in that

2:22five, six years of training, where you

2:24were truly preparing to win gold. We'd

2:27start in the morning with a training

2:28session.

2:30Eat plates of food for breakfast, go

2:32home, take a nap, wake up, eat something

2:35else, go back to the pool, go home, eat,

2:38sleep, wake up, and do it all over

2:39again. Every day for six years? Six-year

2:42stretch where I didn't miss a single

2:43day.

2:44A lot of people say why, and I say why

2:46not. There wasn't a single person on

2:48this planet during those 20 years,

2:50pretty much in my career, that was more

2:52prepared than me. That's why I got the

2:53results that I got.

2:56>> [music]

3:03>> Five Olympic Games, 28 medals, 23 of

3:06them gold, 39 world records. If this man

3:09was a country,

3:11he would have been the third highest

3:14country with the medals.

3:16There is no other human being, there is

3:19no other athlete in the world who has

3:21achieved this much in a single sport as

3:25much as this person has achieved. He's a

3:27beast, he's a maniac. He's achieved

3:29numbers that no human has ever touched.

3:32He's achieved numbers that might never

3:34be touched again. And for six years

3:36straight, this man trained every single

3:38day. No Sundays off, no holidays, no

3:41Christmas, nothing. No excuses.

3:45How did he build this beast wild

3:49mindset?

3:50While the world was moving, he was

3:52training like a maniac. He was obsessed

3:54trying to be better, faster just by 1

3:57second, just by half a second. And

3:59today, on figuring out, we're sitting

4:02with this beast, the absolute goat. It's

4:05an honor to do the podcast with Michael

4:08Phelps,

4:09the greatest athlete, the greatest

4:12Olympian, the athlete which has never

4:16existed before and the world has never

4:19seen.

4:20And in this conversation, we're going to

4:22figure out what it actually takes to

4:24absolutely become the champion and to

4:27build a mindset of a beast so that you

4:29kill every time you enter the arena.

4:33This podcast is like

4:35the masterclass

4:37of an athlete mindset. If you want to

4:40win this year,

4:42watch this till the end.

4:43>> [music]

4:48>> You know, actually, before I even I even

4:50start this,

4:52how about

4:56for 0.01%

4:59people who have no clue who you are,

5:02why don't you tell us, Michael, who are

5:04you? I was a swimmer at one point in my

5:06life.

5:08Um

5:09I won a couple gold medals, broke a

5:11couple world records. Um

5:14competed in five Olympic Games.

5:18Um I'm a father of four now. I have four

5:21boys, nine, seven, six, and almost two.

5:25Um

5:27Yeah, and I think a lot of what I try to

5:30do now is

5:31>> [snorts]

5:31>> is really promote

5:34healthy and active lifestyles, whether

5:36that's water safety with

5:39my foundation,

5:41um or it's really trying to open up the

5:43world to the importance of mental

5:46health.

5:47Um you know, I think for me going

5:49through what I went through the tail end

5:51of my career, um really helped me

5:54explore more about who I am.

5:57Um but also, I think with me

6:01showing my vulnerability and opening up

6:03and talking about the struggles that I

6:04go through,

6:06I've been able to hear others or see

6:09others that have become vulnerable

6:11around me and shared what they go

6:13through.

6:14Um and for me,

6:16I think the second part is way bigger

6:20than the first part. Um because the

6:23second part we're dealing with life and

6:24death.

6:26The first part was awesome. But like,

6:28don't get me wrong, it was incredible

6:30hearing my my national anthem play and

6:33you know, winning a bunch of gold

6:35medals, but you know, the fact that life

6:38and death is also in play with so many

6:40people, I think I

6:42I just heard a stat.

6:44My wife just sent it to me yesterday. It

6:46was

6:48This is kind [snorts] of crazy to me.

6:50Suicide's the second leading cause of

6:53death

6:54for people 10 to 34.

6:59So, for me, that's why I say the second

7:01part is so much

7:02it's so much bigger.

7:04Um

7:04you know, just being again, being able

7:06to save a life

7:07uh is a thousand times better than

7:10winning an Olympic gold medal. Um and

7:12for me, just being able to have the

7:14platform that I had, that I have,

7:18um to give me

7:21the chance to to speak what I'm

7:23passionate about is is really special.

7:26Let's try to understand both the phases

7:28of your life. Part one, part two.

7:31But before we go there, I want to

7:32understand something about you when you

7:34were a child, like from the beginning.

7:37Tell me, what do I need to understand

7:39about you when you were 10 years old?

7:42You [snorts] were unable to sit in a

7:43class. You saw your parents' uh

7:46relationship falling off.

7:48You were restless

7:51and not able to just cope up with

7:53everything which normal kids do. Yeah.

7:55What do I need to understand about that

7:57Michael? Um I mean, I I I I I I I I I

7:59and everything that came after. Yeah, I

8:01mean, [snorts] I think for me, uh

8:05you know, going back even before 10, you

8:08know, when I was 7 years old, I was

8:11you know, nonstop kind of bouncing off

8:13the wall. You know, I was always around

8:15the pool. My my two older sisters swam,

8:17so I was around the pool all the time,

8:19so water safety was

8:21uh something that was a big priority for

8:23my mother and and you know, once I was

8:26in the water and I was safe there,

8:29you know, I was just kind of playing

8:30around the pool all the time. So, that's

8:32when I got into the water, and then the

8:34water was kind of

8:36a release for me. Um you know, being

8:39able to

8:41kind of swim as hard as you want to go

8:43faster with, you know, anger, if you

8:46might have it, was something that I

8:49enjoyed.

8:50Um yeah, it wasn't great dealing with

8:53anger as a 7, 8, 9, 10-year-old kid. Um

8:57but for me, it was an outlet. Uh and it

9:00was something that that, you know, I

9:02ended up falling in love with, and uh

9:05yeah, I mean, I I remember in

9:08uh middle school,

9:10>> [clears throat]

9:11>> I was told uh by my teachers that I

9:14would never by excuse me, by a teacher,

9:17uh that I would never amount to

9:19anything.

9:20Um and and I still remember her name and

9:23and

9:24uh I still remember what she looks like.

9:26I still remember where I was sitting in

9:27the class. Um and and I think at that

9:31point for me, I used it as motivation.

9:34Um you know, the the fact that a

9:36teacher, number one, would say they're

9:38doubting a student and not knowing how

9:40to deal with them, I think is

9:42saddening, it's upsetting.

9:45Um but for me, I was like, watch this,

9:47I'm going to prove you.

9:49Uh and I think at the time, that was

9:51pretty much when I

9:53had stopped taking um

9:56Ritalin, which was for my ADHD.

9:59Uh,

10:00so my ADHD I literally was like I was

10:03all over the place. I was leaning back

10:05in the chair on the back legs, leaving

10:07dents on the in on the floor in the

10:09classroom, always getting sent to the

10:11principal's office, and honestly I just

10:13had a really hard time sitting still.

10:15Um,

10:16and at that point my mom was, you know,

10:18I was playing baseball, I was playing

10:19lacrosse, I was playing soccer, and I

10:21was swimming. I was playing all these

10:23different sports just to try to get the

10:25energy out of me. My mom was just like I

10:27don't know what to do with him. Um, and

10:29it's crazy fast forward now to where I'm

10:3140 and I have four kids. It's the same

10:34way.

10:34>> [laughter]

10:34>> Their kids are non-stop. Um,

10:37but I think, you know, going back to

10:39that point I I think swimming really

10:41gave me

10:43something to focus on. Um, yeah, I was

10:47that

10:48well, I still am that kind of ADD, kind

10:51of all over the place, jittery, like

10:53kind of always moving around. Like

10:55that's just who I am. That's my

10:56personality. So, you know, I think over

10:59time I naturally took something that

11:01somebody labeled me with having or being

11:05a less than of a kid, I took that into

11:08into almost really making it a

11:10superpower. Um, because it gave me the

11:13ability to focus on things that I was

11:15really passionate about. Um,

11:17See, your teacher said she must have

11:19noticed and the rest of the world just

11:20noticed how you were as a kid who

11:22restless not able to sit anywhere.

11:24What do you think

11:26that teacher didn't get or the world

11:28didn't get about that kid who was not

11:32able to sit properly? Because uh, you

11:34definitely had something in you and you

11:37>> I just thought she didn't know how to,

11:39whether it's a lack of better way of

11:40saying it, like I don't I don't think

11:42she wanted to deal with me or knew how

11:44to deal with me or knew how to handle me

11:47or knew or knew how to taught me, teach

11:49me, right? Like she didn't she just

11:50didn't know.

11:51Um, and you know, like for me

11:54like my mother has been in education for

11:5650 years.

11:57You know, like that's her passion. Her

11:59passion is being in the classroom to try

12:01to make an impact for a student. To try

12:03to help them take whatever they're

12:05learning in that year, that classroom,

12:08and catapult it to help them into the

12:10rest of their life, to help transform

12:12them into what they want to be. And all

12:14of those steps need to happen, but when

12:16a teacher, you know, instantly shuts

12:18down on a kid,

12:20it just doesn't look good for the

12:21teacher.

12:22Um, but I mean,

12:24>> [clears throat]

12:26>> I think I got like a C in her class, so

12:29like let's be honest. Yeah.

12:31I was kind of like just get me out of

12:33here. You know, like that was my least

12:35least favorite class that I went to

12:36every single day and I sat there.

12:37>> class was it? English.

12:39I hated English. You [snorts] know, and

12:41and maybe it was how she was teaching it

12:43to me. Because I had teachers that were

12:44great. You know, like I had teachers

12:46throughout my my

12:48uh, elementary, middle, and high school

12:50where they were awesome and they helped

12:53me understand when I had problems

12:55learning what everybody else was

12:57learning faster than what I was

12:59learning.

13:00Or if I was learning things faster than

13:02everybody else, then she gave me he or

13:04she gave me stuff

13:06to help me stay focused, right? Like

13:08that I I I think it's just

13:11uh, everybody has a different mind and

13:13everybody is able to handle or control

13:16as much as they can. Um, and she just

13:19didn't know what to do. Uh, it was sad

13:21and I'm sure there still are teachers

13:23out there in the world that are like

13:24that and

13:25it is it is unfortunate and it is sad.

13:28Um, but to the kids out there who do

13:31have an experience like that, know that

13:34there are other outcomes that can happen

13:36in life. Um,

13:39I mean, people doubted me in the

13:40swimming pool, too. And honestly, like

13:42for me again, it was just it was a form

13:45of motivation. That was it. You know,

13:47like if somebody wants to doubt me, like

13:48I've been on this kick lately where I've

13:50just been firing off quotes on

13:52Instagram. Just like on my story, just

13:54ripping quotes off that just like fit me

13:56in the morning. And I'm like I'm I'm I'm

13:58a big quotes person and and you know,

13:59like throughout my career my coach would

14:01always put quotes on the top of the

14:03workout. Um, motivating quotes or just

14:06quotes that people need to hear that for

14:08me that I need to hear. Um, you know,

14:11for for whatever you're going through

14:13life, so yeah, I can

14:14>> Which one's your favorite quote now?

14:16I mean, my my favorite quote is actions

14:18speak louder than words. You know, like

14:20that's that's one of my all-time

14:22favorite hands-down quotes because it

14:25it's true. You know, like you can say

14:27whatever you want, but if your actions

14:29don't back up those words, then all it

14:30is is just a bold-faced lie, you know?

14:33So, you know, for me like throughout my

14:35career like I I wanted to,

14:38you know, break this world record, win

14:40this gold medal, whatever it was, and I

14:43knew that there had to be a process on

14:45how to get there, right? Like I can't

14:47just say it and snap my fingers. There

14:49had to be, you know, every single day

14:52little baby things that were stacked on

14:53top of each other and little baby steps

14:55that were heading towards that goal. And

14:57if I was taking steps backwards, then

14:59I'm just cheating myself.

15:01What what do you think

15:04you said water became your escape and

15:06you were just always in the pool taking

15:07out your anger

15:09and everything. Like it it became your

15:11coping mechanism in some sort and you

15:12were always in the pool, right?

15:13>> Mhm. What do you think what did water

15:15give you

15:16emotionally which nothing else could?

15:20Um, I [clears throat] mean, my kids call

15:22me Aquaman now, so I guess

15:24>> [laughter]

15:24>> it's kind of the same

15:25Um, you know, I I don't know. I think

15:28thinking back to it and, you know, kind

15:30of being able to dive through my career

15:32a little bit inside the pool.

15:35Um,

15:35I was super sensitive to every little

15:38part of the water in my body, right? So,

15:40like when I would swim, I'm feeling the

15:42water in the palm of my hands.

15:45Like that's where I'm feeling all the

15:47pressure. So, if my shoulder my my arm

15:49or my body is not a certain way, then

15:51I'm not able to feel that. So, it's all

15:53trial and error and trying to get in the

15:55right position.

15:57Um, and naturally I think, you know, for

15:59me just being submerged in water, I just

16:03felt at home.

16:05Um, I don't know, for lack of better

16:07terms. Like, you know, even that even

16:09like now,

16:11if I go into a big depression state or

16:14I'm just in a grouchy mood for a couple

16:17of days and workout hasn't helped and,

16:19you know, my normal routine hasn't

16:21helped, whether it's the cold tub or the

16:22sauna, you know, I'll I'll just get, you

16:25know, my wife will just kick me out of

16:26the house and say go go jump in the

16:28swimming pool.

16:29Um, because it's it's kind of like the

16:31only place where

16:33I I don't have anybody talking to me.

16:36I don't have to think about stroke. I

16:39don't have to think about what I'm

16:41having for dinner or what I'm making for

16:42dinner or what I'm doing tomorrow or

16:44this or that.

16:46I'm just there in the moment.

16:49Right? Like I can just be. And I can

16:51swim for 500, which is, I mean,

16:56minimal compared to what I used to swim.

16:58>> [laughter]

16:58>> Um, or I could swim 2,000. It doesn't

17:01matter. Like

17:03just being able to be back in the water,

17:06being back into that environment I think

17:08is kind of one of my reset switches.

17:12Um, that kind of just levels me out.

17:15Do you think you were running away from

17:16something? Or you were you were swimming

17:20away from something or swimming towards

17:22something? I think I found swimming,

17:24yeah, as an outlet, but I think, you

17:26know, the reason why I found swimming is

17:28my two older sisters swam as well. So,

17:30you know, for me kind of seeing what

17:32they were doing and my middle sister

17:35Whitney was traveling all over the world

17:37and she was on world championship teams.

17:39I was like, "Wow, that seems pretty

17:40cool." Like she was trying to go to the

17:42Olympic Games and I was like, "Yeah, I

17:43want to go to the Olympic Games." Like,

17:45"Hell yeah, like who doesn't want to go

17:46to the Olympic Games?" Um, and I I just

17:49kind of followed and and, you know,

17:51naturally as a kid if you learn that you

17:54get good or you start getting faster,

17:59you kind of think how fast can I get?

18:01And that's kind of what I did. You know,

18:03like from the start until the end of my

18:05career I was

18:07kind of like, "All right, how how much

18:09faster can I get? Can I drop a second?

18:11Can I drop a half a second? Can I drop

18:13two tenths? Like what is the maximum

18:16potential that I have inside of me and

18:18how can I challenge myself in different

18:20ways?"

18:21Um, swimming for me like again, like

18:24I would scream underwater. You can't

18:26hear me. Like

18:28I would call my coach every single

18:30[ __ ] name on the planet. Like sorry

18:33for profanity, but like like I literally

18:35would. Like because there were times

18:37where I was so frustrated and so angry

18:41and there was nothing else I could do,

18:42whether it was like I my body was in

18:44pain, I I mentally couldn't do it or I

18:47felt like I couldn't do it. Um, I would

18:49just scream and then naturally I would

18:52still get through it and it would go

18:54well and blah blah blah blah blah, but

18:57it's like in that moment like for me

18:59screaming was one of those things that

19:00would just let everything out. Um, and

19:03it's something that like, you know,

19:04we've taught our kids. Um, again, we

19:07have four boys and and the emotions get

19:10high.

19:11So, you know, we taught them this thing

19:13called a lion breath where you take a

19:15deep breath and you roar like a lion.

19:18And you scream as loud as you can. And

19:20again, with I mean, the younger one

19:22doesn't scream that much, but like the

19:24three older ones it's a lot of noise,

19:26but it's again, like we find once

19:28they're able to do that, their shoulders

19:30drop a little bit and they're able to

19:32have that conversation of what big

19:34feelings emotions they're going through

19:35inside instead of carrying them along

19:37through life. Can you show me what what

19:39is it? Like what's the lion breath? Uh,

19:41you don't want me to scream in here.

19:43It's okay. You can just show it like a

19:44little bit

19:45>> it's just like

19:45>> one version of it.

19:46>> [sighs]

19:46>> Ah, and you obviously you can scream as

19:49loud as you want, but it's it's

19:50literally just take a deep big, big, big

19:53deep breath in and just scream as loud

19:56as you possibly can. And naturally like

19:58naturally when when you do that, your

20:01shoulders do drop a little bit, right?

20:02You are able to kind of

20:04come back to earth, right? Be your

20:06normal self. Like I always joke, there

20:08was uh

20:09the candy, the Snickers bars commercial.

20:12Um it's always they they they always

20:14show them here, but it's it's uh it's a

20:17commercial where it's like you take a

20:18bite of a Snickers and you just feel

20:19like you're normal self. Like I feel

20:21like that's what that's what it is. Like

20:23what Snickers is saying like when you

20:24have a sugar low, you eat some sugar and

20:26naturally you feel better. But here it's

20:29like if you're stressed or you're

20:30frustrated and you take that deep

20:32breath, you're able to be like

20:34huh, okay. So, why am I going through

20:36that? What feelings and emotions am I

20:38going through? And you're able just to

20:39get it all out. Like for me it's, you

20:41know, there are a bunch of different

20:42things that I do.

20:44Um I don't do lion's breath that often,

20:46but

20:47uh when I'm in the pool it's very easy

20:48to do it.

20:50Um

20:50but yeah, I mean there there's a

20:52checklist that I have for my own mental

20:53health. So, you would So, you used to

20:56scream inside the pool a lot. Or like

20:59underwater like

21:00>> Underwater, right?

21:01>> Like when I was going and taking like

21:03when I was doing my streamlines off the

21:04wall and I was kicking underwater, I

21:07would

21:08there were a lot of F bombs that were

21:09said. Yeah, that was one of my favorite

21:11words to scream underwater. And people

21:13could hear it. Honestly like when you're

21:15in a set, like person next to me would

21:17be like, "Did you just scream?" And

21:19you're like, "Mhm, [clears throat] I

21:20did. I did." And they're like, "All

21:22right, we have one more." And you're

21:23like, "Yep, we got one more repeat.

21:25Let's go."

21:26Um but it it's just

21:28it's kind of like in the moment like it

21:30it

21:31I feel like I needed

21:33I needed to do that just to get through.

21:36Um and everybody I think probably has

21:37something different, right? But that

21:39that was just me. It was screaming

21:40underwater. It's same thing like when

21:42I'm in the weight room now like I I was

21:45just traveling overseas and and I was

21:47lifting in I think it was Mumbai.

21:50And I was in the weight room and I was

21:53like grunting.

21:56And then like everybody in the gym like

21:57looked at me and I was like, "Shit." And

21:59I'm looking into a mirror and

22:00everybody's face is staring right at

22:02you.

22:03Um but it's just kind of something that

22:05I do. Um I mean I used to do it right

22:07when I get up onto the block. You know,

22:09right after I did my arm slap, it was

22:11something that I would always do, just

22:12clear my throat.

22:14So, is it you were screaming a lot

22:16because you were obsessed with trying to

22:18win? Or was it A lot of different

22:20things. It was probably yeah, I wanted

22:22to win. I wanted to push through

22:23whatever I was going through or I was

22:25emotionally just ready to snap and

22:28screaming was something that would help

22:30me.

22:31Where did this obsession of winning come

22:33from? Was it

22:34Hating to lose.

22:36But

22:36>> I hate to lose more than I enjoy

22:38winning.

22:38>> Even when you were like 9, 10, 11?

22:41How did this come up?

22:43I don't know.

22:45It was just something I always had. Like

22:46I always felt from from when I was a

22:49little kid like

22:51there was there was there was no second

22:54place.

22:55That wasn't an option.

22:57It's just something that I always I mean

22:58like

23:00I remember winning home run derby at 10

23:02or 11 years old. Like I was the biggest

23:05kid playing lacrosse, playing long stick

23:07middie,

23:08um just slashing people with the stick.

23:11Um

23:12yeah, I mean

23:13winning winning was everything. Yeah. Do

23:16you think it has anything to do with

23:18not getting your father's approval when

23:20you were a kid?

23:22Um the absence of

23:25I don't think so.

23:26Uh because

23:28I I mean I I would say a lot of it

23:29probably came from him

23:31um because he was he was kind of more of

23:34the athlete from my parents'

23:37relationship. He was

23:39a baseball player, a football player,

23:41track and field stud.

23:43Um

23:44he I think he was the first person to

23:47get cut from uh the Washington Redskins

23:50back in the day

23:51uh when they were the Redskins. So,

23:53um winning or trying to be the best is

23:56something that that in sports was

23:59something that he was he was very good

24:01at. Like competition in sports that that

24:04was something that he excelled in. Um I

24:07would say my sister Whitney and I are

24:10uberly competitive, more competitive

24:12than my older sister Hillary. Um

24:14especially in sports.

24:16Um there's there's just Yeah, I mean for

24:18us again there was just there was no

24:20second place.

24:22Um

24:24you know, for me it it it ended up

24:26becoming preparation, right? Like

24:28preparation is everything. If you're not

24:30prepared, then

24:32you're going to get second or you're

24:33going to get third or you're going to

24:35get last, right? Because there's always

24:37somebody that is overly prepared or more

24:39prepared than you are, no matter what.

24:41So, for me I just became that person.

24:44There wasn't a planet. There there there

24:45there wasn't there wasn't a single

24:47person on this planet

24:50during those 20 years pretty much of my

24:53career. You know, I had a couple losses

24:56that I can name for through my Olympic

24:58career.

25:00But there wasn't another person on this

25:01planet that was more prepared than me.

25:03Not, period.

25:05There wasn't. That's why I got the

25:07results that I got. It's not rocket

25:09science. It's not.

25:11I put in the work, I got the results.

25:13That's it.

25:14Let's let's go to your preparation time

25:16and like when you first started with

25:18your coach.

25:19>> Yeah. And

25:21first when your coach spotted you

25:24in the same year he went to your mother

25:26and said that you're going to win an

25:27Olympics or you're going to be in the

25:28Olympics, right? What was that story?

25:30Tell me about it. My coach came to North

25:32Baltimore Aquatic Club where I was

25:33swimming where my sister swam. Long

25:36tradition of uh of excellence with that

25:38club in Baltimore.

25:41You know, from

25:431984

25:46until 2016

25:49there was

25:51at least one person on every single

25:53Olympic team.

25:55Wow.

25:56So, my coach came in '96 [snorts]

25:59or right before '96, maybe '95. Okay.

26:03Um

26:05and he was helping my sister's group a

26:07little bit.

26:09Uh my middle sister's group a little bit

26:10prepare for uh Olympic trials and the

26:13Olympic Games in '96. And

26:16then the group kind of split and he took

26:18over a different group. I think I'm

26:19thinking I'm explaining this right away.

26:21Um

26:22and then I remember seeing him while I

26:24was that kid playing at the pool.

26:27You know, I was only swimming like three

26:29days a week. Like I really wasn't

26:30training that much back then.

26:32And I would always play, play, play and

26:36I would see him go up and down the pool,

26:40walk, run, arms up in the air,

26:43screaming, whistling. And I was like

26:46like I remember being like, you know,

26:48like

26:48if it was me back then what I was

26:50thinking, I would be like there's no

26:51[ __ ] chance I'm swimming for that

26:53man. Like he is an absolute lunatic.

26:57Fast forward a year,

27:00I spent 20 years 20 plus years of my

27:02life with that man and he is my only

27:04coach. Um but it it it's kind of crazy

27:06because, you know, seeing it you know, I

27:09think at that age I was like, "Man, like

27:11truly like this guy's nuts."

27:13Um

27:14but what I learned it was just the

27:15passion that he has. And that he that

27:17that he had back then that he still has

27:19today. Um But did he come to you or you

27:21went to him? So,

27:23uh I was I was excelling in the group

27:26that I was in and and I needed to be in

27:29a higher group. And and I was 11 years

27:31old at this time and the kids that were

27:32in that group were like

27:3414, 15, 18 years old. Like way older,

27:39way more mature. Um but I was faster

27:42than them.

27:44So, I I ended up swimming in that group

27:46and and I got to that group and and but

27:48before I got there my coach sat down

27:50with my parents one night and he's like,

27:52"Well, look like if if, you know, your

27:54son wants to make the Olympic team in

27:55four years, he can make the Olympic

27:56team."

27:57As an 11-year I I was 11 years old.

28:00He said that to you? He said that to me.

28:02And he's like, "But look, he's like you

28:03got to stop playing baseball, lacrosse,

28:05and soccer."

28:07But for me like looking back now like

28:09those playing those four different

28:10sports

28:12I think naturally gave me a better body

28:14awareness. Like the more I talk to the

28:17professional athletes from all sports,

28:19all walks of life now,

28:21that's the same thing they did.

28:23Playing multiple sports. Don't be super

28:25hyper focused on one sport. But at a

28:27certain time there's then going to be a

28:29decision that you have to make.

28:31It it's it's just naturally I feel like

28:33that's how it is in sports. If you

28:34really want to be the best at one sport,

28:38there's a

28:39you have to make a decision at some

28:40point. Um just because of the process of

28:43development, this, that, and the other.

28:45Um but back then, yeah, he he sat down

28:48and said that and I was like, "All

28:48right, kind of like fine. Like I'll stop

28:50playing these other sports. I'll focus

28:51on swimming. No problem." And I just

28:54remember back then I I I was I was the

28:57Energizer Bunny. Like he basically would

28:59wind me up and I would just go. Or he

29:01would say jump and I would say how high.

29:03Um

29:05because he gave me that vision of

29:09wanting to go to the Olympic Games.

29:12To then

29:15make the dream of winning an Olympic

29:17gold medal

29:20even bigger. Because you know, I just

29:22thought about going.

29:24And then I'm like, "Maybe I could win,

29:26right? Like that would be pretty cool."

29:28When you were 11 and he said that to you

29:29for the first time that

29:32you could go to Olympics in next four

29:33years. Did you believe it? Or did you

29:35act act like someone who believed it

29:38until it actually became true? Uh I

29:40believed it because he showed confidence

29:44in me.

29:45As an 11-year old

29:46>> Something that he saw of me in the pool

29:49gave him confidence that he could do

29:51that.

29:52He had already trained and worked with

29:54previous Olympic coaches, Olympic

29:56athletes,

29:57and he saw something.

30:00Um

30:00and honestly, I think back to the

30:02question you asked earlier, like you

30:04know, he then became a father figure in

30:07my life, right? Because

30:09I I mean, I literally spent

30:11spent 25 years traveling the world with

30:15him,

30:15right? So, I mean, like basically my

30:17whole entire life was

30:19hand in hand with him. Everything we did

30:21swimming related was together. Um

30:25and and you know, I think once I did

30:28make that Olympic team,

30:30that really really made me trust him.

30:34Because I was like like like for me

30:35because I know you said don't skip, but

30:37like when I made that Olympic team and I

30:40got fifth,

30:43I was pissed, but I was hungry.

30:45Right? Because I didn't want a piece of

30:47paper that somebody said,

30:48"Congratulations, you came and

30:49competed." That's not why I came.

30:52I came because I wanted something around

30:53my neck. That's it.

30:55So, I remember that day after my Olympic

30:58final in Sydney,

30:59the workout paper he wrote down, it said

31:02WR on the top of it. And for people who

31:05don't know, that means world record.

31:08And I was like, "What's this?"

31:09He goes, "You're going to break a world

31:10record in 6 months."

31:13And I was like,

31:14"Okay.

31:15Sure. Let's see what happens."

31:17Sure enough, 6 months later, I break a

31:19world record. So, like again, like

31:21that's where the whole trust really

31:23really opened up. Um but but you know, I

31:27think through you know, from the time I

31:29got with him to the time I was 15,

31:34he basically just broke my strokes

31:36completely apart.

31:39Um like he started from scratch.

31:42Uh you know, I I had some good things

31:45going on with my body and how I swam and

31:48the reach, obviously I have super long

31:50arms, long wingspan, short legs, really

31:53strong legs, um short but wide. My my

31:56[clears throat] my quads are huge. Um

32:00so for me like it when I got to him at

32:0211 years old, I still remember back in

32:04the day, so the people who don't

32:05understand swimming, a six-beat kick

32:08is

32:10three kicks per one stroke. So, it's

32:13one, two, three with your legs per one

32:15stroke.

32:17So, he was teaching me the importance of

32:18a six-beat kick. It wasn't 11, I forget

32:20what age it was, but um

32:24he said, "Every time you drop your legs

32:25in a practice and you don't do a

32:27six-beat kick, I'm going to kick you

32:28out."

32:30And the first day I got through like

32:32500 of a 6,000-yard workout.

32:36Kicked me out. Next day, 2,000, kicked

32:38me out. Next day, 2,500, kicked me out.

32:40Next day, 3,000, kicked me out. Next

32:42day, 4,000, kicked me out. By the end of

32:44the week, I got to a full workout.

32:46And from that day forward,

32:48I never dropped my feet for a single

32:50stroke of freestyle

32:52for the rest of my career.

32:55Did I agree with what he was doing? No,

32:56it sucked getting kicked out. It was

32:58absolutely miserable sitting there

32:59watching my friends train and and and be

33:02in a practice, but I learned the

33:04importance of the small technical points

33:07that you have to have

33:09in order to be able to go wherever you

33:12want to go, right? Like it's almost like

33:14a college level class. You can't take

33:16the thousand level class without taking

33:18the one through nine, right? Like so,

33:20there's a process through it all and he

33:22taught me that process throughout my

33:24career and we were able just to sharpen

33:26up those tools, right? Like that's

33:27really all it became.

33:29Um because

33:31you know, throughout my career, we ended

33:33up ended up just trying to shave off

33:34hundredths of a second. How do you shave

33:36off 5/100 of a second? Mhm. Is it a

33:39turn? Is it a kick? Is it a streamline?

33:41What is it? Is it dive angle? Like what

33:45what how do we do it, right? So, it's

33:47trial and error. But it all started from

33:49those years

33:51um when we first started working

33:52together. I mean, whether it was

33:54mindset, whether it was goal setting,

33:56whether it was preparation, routines,

34:00um

34:01you know, that's where stretching came

34:02into play. All that stuff to to just get

34:04your body prepared. Um my warm-ups were

34:08the same at every single meet from the

34:09time that I was

34:1113 or 14 till the time I retired. It

34:14didn't change.

34:168642 or 6442, every single warm-up. Who

34:20was more ambitious, you or your coach?

34:24Uh

34:29you could probably say both of us at

34:31different stages of my career.

34:33>> [snorts]

34:34>> Cuz I think leading up to 2008,

34:37I don't think there was anybody more

34:39ambitious than me.

34:41Post like '04 or '08 to 2012, he was way

34:46more ambitious. He wanted and I just

34:48wanted nothing to do with the sport.

34:50Um and then when I came back, I think we

34:53both wanted it.

34:54When I came back to finish in '16,

34:57um

34:58we were both equally as hungry and

35:01wanting to do

35:04or wanting to finish, I guess, what we

35:06had started the right way.

35:09Um because I mean, I I've said this and

35:11I'll say it a thousand times more, like

35:13there's not a coach on this planet that

35:17could have

35:19helped me,

35:21coached me to be able to do what I was

35:24able to do. Not a single person. I was

35:26an [ __ ] I was a little [ __ ] dude

35:28to coach, I know it. And he'd say it,

35:30too. Um and I'd say the same about him.

35:33But you know, I think again, like it's

35:35the passion that we had and and we

35:37learned a lot about each other through

35:38the process, right? It was you know, he

35:41had to adapt, I had to adapt cuz I

35:43wasn't that 11-year-old kid that he

35:44wanted to start working with when I was

35:4630, Mhm. right? So, just that change

35:49that we had to go through was was um was

35:52important for us to have the the

35:55relationship that we had for as long as

35:57we had.

35:58You your coach also said people around

36:01you or everybody to not to say the word

36:03Olympic. What was when was that? What

36:05was that story?

36:07I mean, my mom when I made the Olympic

36:10team in 2000,

36:11she like fully decorated the front yard

36:14with like all these American flags and

36:16like this, that, and the other. And my

36:17mom was or my coach is

36:20Bob goes, "This is the last time you're

36:21ever going to do this.

36:23Never again." Um

36:25>> What? And and I think because it's like

36:29I mean, I think looking back at it now,

36:31I would say

36:32because the goal wasn't just to make the

36:34Olympic team. That wasn't the goal.

36:36The goal is to win an Olympic gold

36:38medal.

36:39Not just be a part of the Olympic Games,

36:42but win the Olympic Games. Be a champion

36:45at the Olympic Games.

36:47So, I think once you get caught up in

36:49just making the Olympic team, then

36:52sometimes you might slip and not pay

36:54attention to the small details that are

36:56going to help you be your best self at

36:57the Olympic Games.

36:59Right? Like I I mean, I see it in

37:01I see it with athletes that have been on

37:03Olympic teams with me,

37:05right? Like they had this dream of

37:06making an Olympic team. It's making and

37:09that's it. Just getting there. It's not

37:12actually

37:14doing my best time at the Olympic Games

37:17and potentially coming home with

37:18hardware. That was my goal from day one

37:21when I had my first Olympic race.

37:23Get a gold. Yes, but it's

37:26how do I get faster than my trials swim,

37:29right? For me, I wanted to drop So, in

37:32the US, we have Olympic trials and top

37:35two people in each individual event get

37:38to go. There's

37:39over 2,000 swimmers that at that Olympic

37:42trials. And a maximum of 52 people will

37:45be on an Olympic team.

37:4752 out of 2,000 plus.

37:49And those 2,000 will also come from like

37:51all over the place. Yeah, so like but

37:53like you know, I think it it just like

37:56got I just lost a train of thought. What

37:57was I talking about?

37:59You were talking about

38:00your Olympic

38:02>> Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, now I got it. That

38:03you always wanted just win the medal.

38:05So, yeah, but like for me, like when I

38:08made my first Olympic team in 2000, it

38:10was about

38:12dropping a second from Olympic trials to

38:15the Olympic Games. Drop one second. If I

38:18can do that, then I'm in

38:21I'm in the realm of winning an Olympic

38:23medal, right? So,

38:26I dropped 98/100 of a second and I

38:29missed a medal by less than 3/10.

38:34And I had to wait another 4 years to

38:36have another chance.

38:38How did you feel like you were 15 when

38:40you entered Olympics? You were the

38:41youngest in the world to do that.

38:43Youngest since 1932. And then

38:46you

38:48you end up coming fifth, sixth?

38:51Fifth.

38:52How did you feel?

38:53First time, 15-year-old, youngest

38:55person, fifth. Fifth.

38:58Upset. [clears throat]

38:59They gave me a piece of paper like you

39:01have in front of you that says, "Good

39:02job, you competed. You got fifth."

39:05I don't want to get fifth. I'm not there

39:06to get fifth.

39:07I'm not.

39:08I'm there to hear my national anthem

39:09play. That's it. I mean, obviously, that

39:12was a stretch for me at that time,

39:14but I think having that opportunity of

39:16getting fifth and representing my

39:17country and

39:19being at the biggest stage at such a

39:21young age, I think just only prepared me

39:23naturally for what was going to come.

39:25But you messed up in your first Olympic

39:27Games, right? I think you you forgot

39:29your paper. Oh, yeah, I forgot my

39:31credential. Well, I didn't forget my

39:32credential, I took my roommate's

39:34credential.

39:35Um

39:36I was roommates with another one of the

39:37younger guys on the team and and uh

39:41I we had our credentials just on like

39:43the handle of a door

39:44>> Mhm. and I just ended up grabbing his

39:47instead of mine. We look nothing alike.

39:49So,

39:51uh, I ended up going to the pool and

39:52they wouldn't let me in the pool. I

39:54didn't have my credential.

39:56I tried to go back to the village and I

39:58couldn't get on the bus or get back in

40:00the village because I didn't have a

40:02photo of me on my credential.

40:04>> [sighs and gasps]

40:05>> So, that kind of delayed my warm-up and

40:08my process of getting ready. Um, the

40:12slightest bit and I mean I don't think

40:14that threw me off. I mean because still

40:16I didn't even tie my suit before the

40:18race. My my strings of my suit were just

40:20tucked into my like the top of my suit

40:22which is I mean they're not going to

40:24fall off. The suits are so tight and so

40:26small. They are not going to fall off.

40:28No shot. But I mean I just wasn't

40:30prepared, you know, I think.

40:33The biggest thing I learned from that

40:34moment is is just understanding what

40:36needs to take place

40:38at the most pressured moment.

40:40Right? You know, like for me, yeah, I've

40:42gone to the Olympic trials, but I never

40:45experienced what an Olympic Games was,

40:47what a

40:49swim meet on different soil feels like.

40:53And especially in Australia where

40:54swimming is the number one sport, right?

40:56I mean the floor was shaking. I remember

40:58it vividly. The floor was shaking

41:00because there was an Australian in my

41:01heat next to me who ended up getting

41:03third. I mean like literally like the it

41:05was it was vibrating. There was 18,000

41:08people on one side

41:10and then all the media and the

41:11dignitaries are on the left.

41:13And yeah, I mean like everything just

41:15threw me off. Like looking back

41:16>> was going on in your mind? I was a deer

41:18in headlights. Just scared. Not really

41:21knowing what the hell to do. But I knew

41:23that I had to just get up on the block

41:25and race.

41:26Um, and that was something that, you

41:27know, still to this day like I miss.

41:30Like I I loved I loved competing. I

41:33loved racing more than anything on the

41:35planet. A chance for me to get up versus

41:38the rest of the world or versus the

41:40like my teammates, my competitors in the

41:42US and have a chance to show who is the

41:45best. Yes, every single time. Because

41:47naturally like I'll always go to that

41:49that next level

41:52because I I

41:53I don't like to lose. So, yeah, getting

41:55fifth it was terrible. It sucked. But

41:58again, like I truly believe

42:00had I got a medal

42:032004 might have been different.

42:05Right? You know, like

42:07me falling short of a goal there

42:11probably gave me more motivation to rip

42:14into that next four years to make sure I

42:17don't have that feeling again.

42:20I don't have that sadness or that

42:22disappointment again.

42:24Yeah, it took me a lot to just to make

42:26the Olympic team, but still like getting

42:28there again, you got to wait four years.

42:31I don't want to wait another four years.

42:33So again, like I want everything to be

42:34perfect when I have that chance. And I

42:36think having 2000 I think gave me the

42:38chance to do my trial run in 2004

42:42to prepare for what was to come in 2008.

42:45So when you

42:47>> [clears throat]

42:47>> when you came fifth with a paper, you

42:49came home and now you're like I don't

42:51even know where that paper is. What

42:53whatever that thing was, right? Honestly

42:54like it's just like like a

42:56participation. Like it's just like here

42:59and I'm like

43:01I don't want it.

43:02>> And then you came home and you're

43:03thinking like 2004 is going to be my

43:06year. I'm going to come back home with

43:08gold medal.

43:09If I could place a camera in your head,

43:12what was going on in your head? Like

43:14first day when you just came back from

43:16Well, I knew

43:18you know, like back to that story of

43:19getting back into training the day

43:20after, you know, that's something that

43:23that naturally athletes don't do coming

43:26off an Olympic Games, right? Like you

43:29you kind of

43:32take that four weeks like two to four

43:36four to six weeks four to eight weeks

43:39kind of just to recover to get back into

43:41that cycle

43:43um, to prepare for an Olympic Games, but

43:45for me it was

43:47right back into it because

43:50it

43:51in the sport of swimming when you miss

43:53one day, it takes you two days to get

43:55back to where you were.

43:57So if you miss two months,

44:00it's going to take you four months to

44:01get back to where you were.

44:03So for me from 2000 into 2001,

44:08I didn't miss a step.

44:10Right? I was right back into training. I

44:12mean I went back into training. I mean I

44:13would say I probably did a 5K over 5K. I

44:17think I did like eight 200s or 10 200s

44:20backstroke long course in lane one in

44:24the Sydney warm-up pool the day after

44:26the 200 fly in 2000.

44:29And on the top of the paper it said WR

44:32in six months at Nationals.

44:35And I went to Nationals six months later

44:36which are World Championship trials

44:39um, for that following summer in Japan.

44:44And the last 50

44:47I came back on the existing world record

44:49holder at the time Tom Malchow

44:52and I ran him down with 10 15 m to go.

44:56Um, and I broke the world record

44:581:54.92.

45:01Um

45:01and that kind of catapulted me into that

45:03next summer. I won my first World

45:05Championship at 16 and rebroke the world

45:08record. Um, and then from that point

45:10forward rebroke it in 2002, rebroke it

45:13in 2003, rebroke it in 2004 when I won

45:16the gold medal.

45:17Um, it was just Did I?

45:21No, I didn't break it. I didn't break it

45:23in 2000. Not not winning the gold medal,

45:25but I did break it in that year in that

45:27calendar year. I just won on a tear.

45:30Um, and I think kind of once I got that

45:32taste of success, like I was saying

45:34earlier, that was, you know, for me it

45:36was what else can I do?

45:39How much faster can I go? And I think

45:41that's when we started expanding and

45:43swimming different events. Right? Like I

45:45was swimming the 200 IM. I started

45:46swimming the 400 IM, the 100 fly, the

45:48200 free, the 200 back.

45:51Um

45:52in 2008 I was the American record holder

45:54in the 100 freestyle.

45:56Um, I I just became super versatile and

45:58that was something that we started back

46:00early when I was working with Bob.

46:03Um, cuz we had a goal back then of

46:04trying to be

46:06top 10 in the world in every single

46:08stroke.

46:10Butterfly, backstroke, breaststroke, and

46:11freestyle.

46:13You

46:15But you took four days off from 2000 to

46:172004.

46:19Pretty much yeah, because I had a wisdom

46:20wisdom teeth.

46:22>> [snorts]

46:23>> And I think maybe like

46:25I wouldn't even say I got sick. Like I I

46:26mean even if I was sick, I was still in

46:28the water. I was still training. Um But

46:31you were so obsessed with training and

46:32you believe that even one day off is

46:34going to take you two days back. Why do

46:37you even take four days off then? Well,

46:39I had to. Uh, I mean I had to later in

46:41my career for certain surgeries. I had

46:43hand surgeries throughout my career.

46:45Um,

46:46but I think at that point it was if I'm

46:49not taking the opportunity that I have,

46:51then somebody else is going to take that

46:52opportunity away from me.

46:54And I want the opportunity to be mine.

46:57So for me it was, you know, I think it

47:00it was all about control. What can you

47:01control? I can control not getting sick

47:04by taking care of my body.

47:06Right? So I think naturally over time I

47:08learned how to take care of my body. But

47:10did you feel guilty on the days when you

47:12were off?

47:14Do you feel bad like [ __ ] like

47:16>> It sucks. Yeah, like I mean

47:18it sucked because I was missing an

47:19opportunity and a chance, but once

47:22you're going through surgery, if you

47:23have surgery, then it's kind of like

47:26you need to give your body some kind of

47:27recovery.

47:29Um

47:30I don't think it really hurt taking

47:34those days off.

47:35Um

47:36because I think then after that I it was

47:38like

47:39I went on a six-year stretch where I

47:41didn't miss a single day.

47:43Um

47:45and a lot of people say why and I say

47:48why not. Right? There's no blueprint on

47:50how to win eight gold medals. There's no

47:52blueprint on how to break 39 world

47:54records. There's no blueprint on how to

47:55win 23 Olympic gold medals.

47:58Um, the only thing you can do is trial

47:59and error. Mhm.

48:01>> Um,

48:02for me, yeah, I mean I I would say I

48:04became obsessed.

48:06But I think it's that fine line between

48:08obsession and passionate that I always

48:09flirted with.

48:11Um, and I I was over I was overly

48:13passionate about trying to be the

48:15absolute best. You know, for me

48:18at such a young age I I I had a goal of

48:21of doing something that no one has ever

48:24done in the sport and also changing the

48:26sport and taking it to a new level. So

48:29there wasn't going to be anybody that

48:30was going to stand in my way of doing

48:32that. You know, I I looked up to Michael

48:34Jordan and what he did, you know, on the

48:36court of uh on the basketball court and

48:38and, you know, no matter what he was

48:40going through physically, mentally,

48:42personally. Um, you know, when he was

48:44out there performing, he left every

48:46single ounce on the basketball court.

48:48You know, he had the flu in the flu

48:50game, still dropped what? 50, 40, 45?

48:53Like Yeah, right. Like there was just no

48:55excuses, right? So

48:57um, for me every single day is an

49:00opportunity to get better.

49:02No matter how yesterday went. If you had

49:04a bad day yesterday, today is a

49:06different day. Period. That's it.

49:08You can't live in the past and you can't

49:09live in the future. The only thing you

49:11can do is live in the present.

49:12Walk me through four five

49:14techniques or certain thing that you

49:16would do in that five six years of

49:18training where you were truly preparing

49:20to win gold.

49:22You know, I'll tell before you actually

49:23go there, I'll tell you

49:25one of the most watched Michael Phelps

49:28video

49:29is a clip by me which is funny on the

49:31internet

49:32>> [laughter]

49:33>> because I was researching for this this

49:35podcast and I I typed on YouTube the

49:37most watched Michael Phelps clip and in

49:39that clip I'm explaining

49:41where in one interview he said

49:43that there was there was a faith in your

49:45life probably 6 7 years

49:47where

49:49somebody's asking you that what was the

49:52what's the reason of your success? Why

49:53do you win? And you say just train every

49:55day. Yeah. And they say that's it.

49:57>> the small things. Yeah, I mean

49:58>> And then you said no, train every day.

50:01>> Yeah.

50:01No Christmas. Yeah, I try not to be.

50:03>> party, nothing, no flu, just train every

50:06day. And that that clip is doing really

50:07well for some reason. But explain me

50:10what happened in those 6 years.

50:11I mean it's it's it basically really is

50:14what can you control? What is in your

50:16control every single day? And it's like

50:19you're eating, you're sleeping, you're

50:20drinking water, you're stretching if

50:22you're sore, you're lifting if you're

50:24trying to get stronger, you're working

50:26on your endurance and staying in your

50:27endurance level, working on heart rate

50:29if that's what you're trying to improve.

50:30There's so many different little small

50:32things that you can do it depending on

50:34what your goals are.

50:35>> [gasps]

50:36>> So for me it's it's how can I be

50:38prepared every single day, right? So

50:40like if I go back to that point, you

50:42know, after the 2000 Olympic Games, like

50:44it wasn't you know, it was probably 2002

50:472003 where

50:49I started doing ice tubs.

50:52Right? So it's recovery.

50:54How can I how can I recover my body and

50:56my mind every single day to make sure

50:58that my body, if I'm treating it like a

51:01Ferrari and I want it to go that fast

51:03every single day

51:06I have to recover. I have to treat my

51:08body with with love, right? So if I'm

51:10not eating, if I'm not stretching, if

51:12I'm not drinking water, if I'm not

51:13sleeping, if I'm not staying off my

51:15feet, if I'm not all of these small

51:18things, then I don't have a chance to be

51:20my best during those two to four hours

51:22when I'm in the pool every single day.

51:24So it it became literally a full-time

51:26job the age of 15 16 because I mean I

51:30was professional at 15 or 16 years old.

51:32So I treated it like a job. Um

51:36everything I did was eat, sleep, and

51:37swim. Sure, I was in school

51:40um

51:41until I I was in school through high

51:43school and then

51:44I took

51:466 months of credits at Michigan and

51:48decided that I needed to focus on

51:49swimming and that's what I did. Um but

51:53yeah, I mean like it it was

51:54>> your coach like created

51:56>> like we'd start in the morning with a

51:57training session

51:59and then I would go and eat a bunch of

52:02plates of food for breakfast just to

52:05recover from the you know

52:077500 yard workout we just did.

52:10Um go home, take a nap, wake up

52:16eat something else

52:18go back to the pool

52:21train for 2 hours

52:23go home

52:25eat, sleep, wake up and do it all over

52:27again. It literally like it became a job

52:29at such a young age.

52:31Every day for 6 years.

52:32>> Every day.

52:33Yeah. So

52:35But your coach also created adversities

52:37during the training. What was what was

52:39it like? Why would you train like

52:43like put

52:44do it in the dark, do it without water,

52:47do it

52:47>> mean like there were so many different

52:49things he tried to do just to or just to

52:51mentally prepare us I think for things

52:53that we were going to go through or

52:55could potentially go through. Tell me

52:57worst three.

52:57>> Um I mean like he would break my goggles

53:01or step on my goggles on purpose to

53:03teach me to make sure I had a backup

53:05pair.

53:06And naturally in 2008 my goggles fill up

53:09with water as soon as I dive in and

53:12I had to revert back to a training a

53:14training habit that I did

53:17to help me count strokes to get through

53:19that race. And naturally

53:22I hit the wall at the right time, but I

53:24was able to win and I was able to break

53:26the world record, too. So

53:28you know, I think the things that he did

53:30like breaking my goggles or

53:33um you know, like I I've had my suit rip

53:36right? And and you know, during that

53:39time if you're getting ready for an

53:40Olympic final or a world championship

53:42final and your suit rips

53:45your emotions are going to change,

53:46right? So I was able to then because of

53:49what I went through, whether it's from

53:51the breaking the goggles or or you know

53:55going 10 workouts a week where I'm going

53:5810,000 meters every single session and

54:00going 100k bang bang bang just every

54:03week. Um I think it it just gets you

54:08relaxed in those super high-pressured

54:11tense moments when all of these lights

54:13are on and there's millions of people

54:15staring at you. Oh, and by the way,

54:17we're swimmers, so we're half naked. You

54:19know, so it's like

54:21>> [snorts]

54:21>> um but but I think that's what it was.

54:23Like he was just uh he was obsessed with

54:25with being over-prepared. Um

54:29you know

54:30yeah, it's probably

54:32a little psychotic in ways, but

54:35um you know, looking back at it I

54:37understand why he did what he did, why

54:41he challenged me mentally

54:44um

54:46when things were uncomfortable, right?

54:48Like you know, I remember having to swim

54:49without goggles. It sucks.

54:52Your eyes hurt, right? Like they burn

54:54after swimming for 2 hours without

54:56goggles. Try to swim a race without

54:57goggles. No, it's not fun. Um

55:01but after doing that like I I learned.

55:05And naturally like my cap rips at the

55:07Olympic final as I'm getting ready to

55:09get up on the block for the 4 by 200

55:12free relay.

55:14I have to naturally calm myself.

55:17I asked for

55:19uh a teammate's cap

55:21and I know that I can't represent his

55:22brand and I know I can't represent his

55:24name.

55:26So I had to flip the cap inside out and

55:28just swim with the black cap. But in

55:30that moment

55:31you're calm because you've prepared for

55:33it, right? So like I mean even like

55:35visualization, visualization is

55:38something that that we did my whole my

55:40whole entire career. Uh and it would be

55:42three different ways how you want or you

55:45would play three different tapes

55:47how you want the race to go, how you

55:49don't want the race to go

55:52and what if, right? And how and and and

55:55what if this happens in the race, how do

55:56you how do you adapt? How do you adjust,

55:59right? So it doesn't matter what

56:00happens. Whenever I get there, I'm

56:01prepared. If I lose, if my cap rips, my

56:04goggles break, they fill up with water,

56:06it doesn't matter because my emotions

56:08will stay in check.

56:10And if you can handle your emotions in

56:11the most tense pressured situations,

56:13then you're able to be the best version

56:15of you, right? So like you know, going

56:17back to 2008, I think it was you know,

56:19for me I think it was you know, lack of

56:21better terms, it was like I

56:22I was in the matrix.

56:24Like literally time slowed down. Like I

56:26was just like, all right, cool. Like

56:28I'm more prepared. Let's go.

56:33But it's preparation. And it's again,

56:35yeah, had I not done those 6 years, I

56:37probably don't get the exact results

56:39that I had. You know, like we always

56:41this is something that that um

56:44I always hope that people can relate to,

56:46but um when you're trying to accomplish

56:49a goal

56:51you know, obviously it's not going to

56:52happen like that. It's not going to

56:53happen overnight.

56:55There has to be like little short

56:57in-term goals through that process to

57:00reach the big goal.

57:01So through that process my coach and I

57:03would always say

57:05you know

57:06coming to practice

57:08that's a deposit into the bank.

57:10Right? And 4 years from now, I hope our

57:13bank account is massive

57:15because when we go to the Olympic Games,

57:18I want to withdraw that whole entire

57:20account and just put it on the table and

57:22say let's go.

57:23Right? So it's it's again, it's just a

57:24way of looking at preparation and what

57:26you're doing every single day

57:28because greatness is really it's just a

57:29bunch of small things that are done well

57:31stacked upon

57:32on top of each other. That's it. It's

57:34really not that hard. What You said he

57:37was almost psychotic. What's the most

57:38psychotic thing he did?

57:41>> [sighs]

57:41>> I mean but him [clears throat] and I

57:43have gotten in so many different

57:44arguments and and

57:48I mean it's almost like we were like a

57:50married couple, you know, just like

57:51fighting over like the smallest little

57:53things. Like it's crazy. Um

57:57I mean

57:58>> [sighs]

57:59>> I remember there was a time

58:01uh I forget how old I was, but I mean

58:04like I said, I was a little [ __ ]

58:07And we were doing 400s free long course

58:12and I was supposed to be going like

58:15under 425 or around like 420

58:18and

58:20uh

58:21I I wasn't. I was just going slower and

58:23just pissing him off on purpose.

58:25Um and he was like, you're going to go

58:28you're going to go these times or we're

58:29going to start over.

58:31And I had like 10 or 15 seconds before

58:33the timer went off where we were about

58:35to do the next repeat. And I looked at

58:37the clock and I just didn't say

58:39anything. And right as I was getting

58:41ready to push off I just said, no.

58:44I went back under the water

58:45>> [snorts]

58:46>> and naturally when I was training I

58:48always had to bilateral breathe. I had

58:49to breathe on both sides.

58:51Um so he was on my left side. I'd have

58:54to go three right, three left.

58:57So I ended up switching it that day cuz

58:59I went three on my right

59:02and then I went to my left and saw him

59:04the first time and I was like, [ __ ]

59:05that, I ain't going back to that side. I

59:07[laughter] just kept breathing to my

59:08right. I'll never forget he came down to

59:11the other end and was chasing, throwing

59:13his arms up in the air, whistling

59:14whistling like crazy.

59:16And he threw a bunch of kickboards and

59:18pull buoys down on top of me as I was

59:20pulling or as I was flip turning. I just

59:22kept swimming.

59:24I just kept swimming.

59:26Um

59:26we had a talk shortly after that.

59:28>> [laughter]

59:29>> Uh we both expressed some frustration,

59:31but

59:32um you know, again, I think it was just

59:34the passion that we both had and and

59:37I wouldn't change it because, you know,

59:39I'm sure I did some things that that

59:42pissed him off and frustrated him

59:44throughout our time together and

59:46likewise, there were some things that he

59:48did that pissed me off and and

59:52you know,

59:53if you asked me if I would change

59:55anything that I did or do it differently

59:58in any way, shape, or form, I wouldn't.

1:00:00Um not at all. You know, I think it's

1:00:02it's kind of allowed me to

1:00:06be the person who I am now and feel

1:00:07comfortable in my own skin. So,

1:00:10and I was able to learn a lot through

1:00:13again, the craziness that we went

1:00:14through. I mean,

1:00:15I've thrown water bottles at him. Like,

1:00:18it's it's been bad. Like, I I'm really

1:00:20sorry, Grandpa.

1:00:22Sorry I'm bringing this all out. People

1:00:24have seen videos of it, though.

1:00:26Cuz that was on a video. That was on a

1:00:28documentary that we did.

1:00:31No, it's just it it's it's the passion

1:00:34and again, it's the frustration because

1:00:37for us, we were trying to work in

1:00:40hundreds of a second, right? You know,

1:00:41like two of my Olympic medals were won

1:00:43combined by 5/100 of a second.

1:00:47Right? I won the 2004 100 fly by 4/100

1:00:50and the 2008 100 fly by a 100.

1:00:53Right place at the right time? Yeah, for

1:00:55sure, but it's also hitting the wall at

1:00:57the right place at the right time with

1:00:58the right amount of force, momentum, and

1:01:00speed, but it's also being able to judge

1:01:03when to go all out and when not over

1:01:05swim a race and this, that, and the

1:01:07other. So, again, it's like everything

1:01:09we did, it was it was a full-blown chess

1:01:11match.

1:01:13And we were able to

1:01:15damn near perfect it. Or I only I broke

1:01:18seven world records and won eight gold

1:01:20medals. It should have been eight for

1:01:21eight in '08, but it was eight for seven

1:01:24in '08. So,

1:01:27but yeah, it was it was awesome. And I

1:01:29think it again, like having the

1:01:31opportunities that I had later in life,

1:01:33whether it's '04, '12, or '16, I don't

1:01:35like talking about '12 cuz I hate that

1:01:36Olympics cuz I didn't swim very well. Um

1:01:39but

1:01:40it wouldn't have been possible without

1:01:42those things that I did back in the

1:01:44early 2000s, right? Like, you know, from

1:01:47'04 or 2000 to '04 and then that

1:01:50transition from '04 to '08 when we were

1:01:52at University of Michigan and and

1:01:55you know, we assembled the training

1:01:56group that we had there with I mean,

1:01:58that was

1:01:59one of the most iconic training groups,

1:02:01you know, in my opinion,

1:02:03that we've had. There was every single

1:02:05day, there was there was a handful of

1:02:07the guys that were just going at each

1:02:09other.

1:02:10And by by saying at each other, it was

1:02:12just competition after competition after

1:02:14competition every single stroke that you

1:02:17took during practice. And it was it was

1:02:19something that I just thrived from. I

1:02:21loved being in that kind of environment.

1:02:23You know what I really love about you

1:02:25and your coach partnership, the more I

1:02:26read about it. I'll tell you what I

1:02:28really love about you and your coach.

1:02:30You both kept each other on very high

1:02:32standards. There was an incident I was

1:02:34reading where he didn't show up because

1:02:37he was sick and you texted him that

1:02:40why would I have a coach if I have to

1:02:42coach myself?

1:02:43>> [laughter]

1:02:44>> So, I said like, I was ruthless. Like, I

1:02:47was absolutely ruthless. I was such a

1:02:49jerk.

1:02:51But it was like any any time that I had

1:02:53the chance to come back at him, I took

1:02:56it. Um and I was like I remember that. I

1:02:59was like, why the hell am I swimming for

1:03:00somebody else? Like, you're my coach.

1:03:02Like, if you're not here, why the [ __ ]

1:03:04am I here? I think I literally said

1:03:06that. Um also to the point because I I

1:03:09knew it would piss him off. Like there

1:03:12would be times where I would just say

1:03:14things on purpose to

1:03:16make him mad.

1:03:18Because it was fun and I just enjoyed

1:03:19it.

1:03:20I enjoyed getting under his skin.

1:03:24And I also knew that if I did ever want

1:03:27to get kicked out

1:03:28and I didn't [clears throat] like the

1:03:29practice that

1:03:30I could make him pissed off and say

1:03:32something and

1:03:34he would

1:03:35he would he would toss me. So,

1:03:38there weren't many times like that. But

1:03:40yeah, I mean, I there I knew what to say

1:03:44um

1:03:46to get a reaction.

1:03:48And that's what I wanted. I wanted a

1:03:49reaction.

1:03:51And one thing that you just mentioned

1:03:53and your coach, you guys did almost

1:03:55every day. There was a video tape

1:03:56technique, the visualization in your

1:03:58head.

1:03:59Walk me through it. If somebody who's

1:04:02watching this right now

1:04:05someone like me who wants to become an

1:04:06absolute champion in whatever they're

1:04:08doing.

1:04:09What [clears throat] is that

1:04:09visualization technique? Like, what

1:04:11would you do

1:04:12sitting down in your room every day? I

1:04:14would just lay down. It would be like

1:04:18you know, like if I'm getting ready to

1:04:19go to practice or, you know, if I just

1:04:22have like 30 minutes to lay down on the

1:04:23couch or lay down on my bed and just

1:04:25visualize, it would just be So, what are

1:04:28you thinking? Let's say just walk me

1:04:29around. Yeah, yeah. It would be like

1:04:30What's going on in your head right now?

1:04:32Like in a perfect situation, like

1:04:34say I'm swimming the 200 butterfly. If

1:04:36I'm swimming the 200 butterfly, like

1:04:38what does a perfect race look like? A

1:04:40perfect race looks like a great start,

1:04:42good entry,

1:04:44eight to 10 dolphin kicks, pop up right

1:04:46before 15 m, take 16 to 17 strokes that

1:04:49first 50, hit the wall with speed and

1:04:52momentum on a full stroke, um get out

1:04:56into open water,

1:04:58kind of make the the rest of the

1:05:00competitors deal with my wake and my

1:05:03waves and make them fight through that

1:05:04so it's harder for them and they have to

1:05:06use more energy. Um

1:05:09hitting the wall, breaking a world

1:05:11record,

1:05:12how the race doesn't or, you know, yeah,

1:05:14I mean, like the perfect scenario. Like,

1:05:16no matter what it is. Are you going in

1:05:18for a work pitch and you're trying to

1:05:20get your company to or you're trying to

1:05:22get another company to sign your

1:05:23company? Yeah, then it's a home run.

1:05:26Like the, you know, how like the perfect

1:05:28video is your vision of it going

1:05:30perfectly how you want it to, how you

1:05:33dream it to be. How you don't want it to

1:05:36go is

1:05:37>> [snorts]

1:05:38>> you get touched out by a 100th of a

1:05:41second because you screwed up a wall or

1:05:45you misjudged a turn or

1:05:48you didn't have the right start or your

1:05:51preparation wasn't good. Your warm-up

1:05:54wasn't good. Right? Like, all of those

1:05:56things. So, it's trying to almost really

1:05:59make sure your ducks are in a in a line

1:06:01and

1:06:02every little small piece of that puzzle

1:06:04is fit into the right spot. And then how

1:06:08the race could go would be

1:06:11what if I

1:06:14wake up and they don't like all of a

1:06:17sudden they don't have the same food

1:06:19that I've been eating every other day.

1:06:21Or what if I wake up 20 minutes late? Or

1:06:24what if my suit rips? Or what if my cap

1:06:26rips? Or

1:06:28what if I get sick? Right? All of these

1:06:31things

1:06:32are already played out. So, once I get

1:06:35to the Olympics or once I get to World

1:06:38Championships,

1:06:39if it does happen, I'm like, all right,

1:06:41cool. If I get sick, Doc, what do I need

1:06:44to do? Right? Like, we got team doctor.

1:06:46Doctor, what do I need to do to make

1:06:47sure I can get out there to compete and

1:06:49be my best? Um

1:06:51all of those Yeah, I mean, it's again,

1:06:53it's it's another form of preparation

1:06:55because I feel like if you get into a

1:06:58situation that you're not prepared for

1:07:01or you haven't thought of, then you're

1:07:02not able to be your best self.

1:07:04So, I guess in a long way of saying it,

1:07:06it's controlling the controllables.

1:07:09You know, like controlling the

1:07:10controllables is something that that a

1:07:12dear friend of mine, Greg Harden, taught

1:07:14me

1:07:15back in 2004.

1:07:17And it it's really just such an easy

1:07:20quote and a powerful quote because you

1:07:22can really relate it to so many things

1:07:24in life. Right? Like

1:07:26if I'm thirsty, right? You saw my water

1:07:28just explode cuz I was trying to break

1:07:29the ice. So, I'm going to have a drink

1:07:30of water. Like, if I'm tired, I'm going

1:07:32to go take a nap or I'm going to go to

1:07:33bed earlier tonight than I did last

1:07:35night. It's literally that simple.

1:07:37What do you need to get ready for a

1:07:38meeting? X, Y, and Z. You have a list.

1:07:41Do those three things. If you don't do

1:07:42those three things, you're not fully

1:07:43prepared. You're going to go to that

1:07:44meeting and you're going to be like,

1:07:45"Ah, [ __ ] I wish I would have done

1:07:47that." Well, tough break cuz you didn't.

1:07:49Right? So, and if you don't learn from

1:07:51doing it that way

1:07:53to get ready for the next time, then

1:07:54what are you doing?

1:07:56Right? So, it's it's it's just it's

1:07:58different ways to look at preparation.

1:08:00And for me, again, like I became

1:08:01obsessed with it because

1:08:03I wanted to have the opportunity to be

1:08:05great. I didn't want anybody else to

1:08:06take that opportunity from me. I wanted

1:08:08to earn it. So, I prepared and I worked

1:08:11harder than anybody else did. Period.

1:08:14But would you play every day in your

1:08:16head that you're winning the perfect

1:08:19race? No, that's just I mean, that's

1:08:21just like

1:08:22that's just for big meets. Like, I'm

1:08:24just doing I'm just visualizing for big

1:08:26meets. I'm not doing it for every day.

1:08:28Like

1:08:30like I'm not laying in bed tonight and

1:08:31being like,

1:08:32"What's a perfect day tomorrow? Not

1:08:34tomorrow. Should I go tomorrow? What's

1:08:36Like, no. Like, it's like it's more it's

1:08:39more just like 6 months before a race,

1:08:41before a big meet. Like

1:08:44you know, just kind of getting ready

1:08:45into that mindset because when that

1:08:47moment comes, again, like, yeah, World

1:08:49Championships, you get a little bit more

1:08:51often than the Olympic Games, but the

1:08:52Olympic Games, you got to wait 4 years.

1:08:55You know how long 4 years is to just

1:08:57have a chance to go compete and

1:08:58represent your country the Olympic

1:09:00stage? Like, it sucks. It's awful. But

1:09:03like, that's what I'm saying. Like, if

1:09:04you're not prepared, somebody else is.

1:09:07Especially at that level.

1:09:09Right?

1:09:10Cuz people do obsess. Right? And winning

1:09:12a gold medal, it's what?

1:09:14To have the chance Well,

1:09:16to win a gold medal, it's less than 1%

1:09:18of 1%.

1:09:20>> [snorts]

1:09:23>> So,

1:09:24but for 6 months, you would play the

1:09:26perfect perfect hiccups, the failure

1:09:28every day in your head.

1:09:31There was an incident where you won a

1:09:33gold even when your goggles almost broke

1:09:37like they were what there was water

1:09:38inside your goggles.

1:09:40You couldn't see there was blackout and

1:09:41you still won. How many times did you

1:09:43play that in your head or how many times

1:09:45did you practice with broken goggles

1:09:47before even you actually get there?

1:09:48Well, I think you know when my coach

1:09:50broke my goggles and I had to swim a

1:09:51race without having a pair of goggles. I

1:09:53think taught me to always have a backup

1:09:55pair and

1:09:57when that happened I was just like oh

1:09:59[ __ ] Okay, I guess

1:10:01I got to figure out what I'm going to do

1:10:03and I think for me at that time

1:10:06I reverted back to what I did in

1:10:08training because

1:10:11every single one of my 200s throughout

1:10:13my career every one of my 200

1:10:14butterflies throughout my career when I

1:10:16was competing first second third and

1:10:18fourth 50 all were the same strokes.

1:10:2216 17 18 and then 19 or 20

1:10:26depending on how many kicks I took off

1:10:27the last one.

1:10:29So I was like all right cool. I'm just

1:10:30going to revert back to what I do

1:10:32because in training we do these things

1:10:33called stroke and time 50s.

1:10:36So if you're trying to go 30 seconds

1:10:38then you take 20 strokes.

1:10:4029 19 28 18 27 17

1:10:46So for me naturally I just started

1:10:48counting my strokes after the first well

1:10:50I guess right when I dove in because I

1:10:53realized

1:10:54>> [clears throat]

1:10:54>> I started counting my strokes as soon as

1:10:56I dove in because I realized that they

1:10:59weren't going to stop leaking and also I

1:11:02was unable to take my goggles off.

1:11:05Because

1:11:07when I would swim I would wear my

1:11:10goggles

1:11:11one cap

1:11:14two cap another cap so I couldn't rip

1:11:17all of it off and swim with no cap or

1:11:20goggles it would just it would it just

1:11:22wouldn't be good. So I ended up counting

1:11:24my strokes at the first wall 16 second

1:11:27wall 17 third wall 18 fourth wall is 19

1:11:30or 20 I don't remember. Um but ended up

1:11:33yeah winning a gold medal breaking a

1:11:35world record

1:11:37um and you can go back and look at that

1:11:38video. I I was

1:11:40honestly pissed

1:11:42after I saw the time. Why?

1:11:44I could have gone faster. I should have

1:11:46gone faster.

1:11:47I I think I could have gone at least a

1:11:49half a second faster than that for sure

1:11:51100% just because of the goggles. Yeah.

1:11:54I was I was firing on all cylinders

1:11:56going into that Olympic Games. But why

1:11:58would you be pissed?

1:12:00When you broke a world record you won

1:12:02the gold.

1:12:03I wanted to go faster.

1:12:07That's me. Like honestly I didn't hit

1:12:09the goal that I wanted right? The goal

1:12:11the goal is hitting a certain time. It's

1:12:14not winning it's not winning a gold

1:12:15medal because I know if I get to a

1:12:17certain time I'm the only one that's

1:12:20thinking about doing it.

1:12:21I'm the only one that's doing stuff

1:12:23every single day to get there. So if I

1:12:24hit that time

1:12:26the rest will take care of itself.

1:12:28Nobody else nobody else will win that

1:12:30gold medal if I do that time. And what

1:12:33was going on in your head

1:12:35at that microsecond when you knew that

1:12:36goggles have

1:12:39Did you did you go like oh [ __ ] what do

1:12:43>> nothing I can do.

1:12:43I need to do?

1:12:44There's nothing I could do at that

1:12:45point. I couldn't

1:12:47that was out of my control. The only

1:12:50thing I could do was what was in my

1:12:52control and that was try to win the race

1:12:53with

1:12:55what was at hand.

1:12:57I knew I was the most prepared person

1:12:58there. I just had to worry about my

1:12:59stroke. I had to worry about counting my

1:13:01strokes. That's all I did.

1:13:0316

1:13:0517

1:13:0618 and then bang 19 20

1:13:10ripped off and I was like

1:13:12151 5

1:13:15>> [snorts]

1:13:15>> I should have been 150 point.

1:13:17Should be one 150 for sure.

1:13:20I thought honestly like I I truly

1:13:22thought I could break 150 in the 200

1:13:24butterfly at some point in my career.

1:13:27I only went 151.

1:13:29I think I could have gone a second and a

1:13:30half faster at some point in my career.

1:13:34That's insane even after breaking a

1:13:36world record or winning gold you would

1:13:39not be happy about it.

1:13:41But it's the goals right? Like it's you

1:13:43know like

1:13:45like for me like I I just held myself to

1:13:48such a high standard and I put the most

1:13:51pressure on myself. Like didn't matter

1:13:53what everybody else was saying or doing.

1:13:56The the

1:13:57the one person who put the most amount

1:13:59of pressure on me was me.

1:14:02Because it is in my control right? I'm

1:14:05not going to be able to skip two weeks a

1:14:07month six weeks eight weeks and just

1:14:10wake up one day and break a world

1:14:11record.

1:14:12You have to do the work. If you're not

1:14:13doing the work then skip it.

1:14:16Do something else.

1:14:18Tell me

1:14:20Tell me about that phase which a lot of

1:14:23people call it the alien phase.

1:14:25>> [laughter]

1:14:26>> Which was year 2008 Beijing where you

1:14:29won eight gold medals. You competed

1:14:31in eight races

1:14:33and you won all of them.

1:14:35There's never been an athlete in the

1:14:38world till now who has ever gone that

1:14:41far and have won so many medals.

1:14:43What was what was that phase like that

1:14:45alien phase where everything you touch

1:14:47you would turn it into gold?

1:14:49I mean yeah during those games and like

1:14:52I guess from like 07 08 like those two

1:14:56years like I

1:14:58I truly felt I felt unbeatable in the

1:15:01pool. I really did. Um What did you feel

1:15:04like? Unbeatable. Like I literally felt

1:15:06like there wasn't a single soul on the

1:15:08planet that could touch me that could

1:15:10beat me.

1:15:11Um I just felt like I was super

1:15:13prepared.

1:15:14Um you know everyone says it's like that

1:15:1610,000 hour mark right? Like I think

1:15:182007 was my 10,000 hour mark. Um

1:15:24and then it just it just kept getting

1:15:25better. I mean 2007 those world

1:15:27championships in Melbourne were I mean

1:15:30I might even say performance wise were

1:15:32better than what they were in in in

1:15:34Beijing.

1:15:35Um I mean the times that I did the

1:15:37amount that I was breaking world records

1:15:39by I mean they were body lengths behind

1:15:41me. Um

1:15:44Yeah I mean again it's just it's the

1:15:45preparation that I had done years prior

1:15:48that were showing.

1:15:50That's all it was it's right? Like you

1:15:52know if you go out and buy a piece of

1:15:54property and you want to build a house

1:15:56you can't snap the fingers right? You

1:15:58just got to put it up one brick at a

1:15:59time and that's what I did one day at a

1:16:01time leading up to that point. You know

1:16:032004 was you know obviously a learning

1:16:06process for me be yeah it was a great

1:16:08experience winning six gold medals. Um

1:16:11but I think

1:16:13it truly just prepared me for what was

1:16:15coming in 2008

1:16:17to make sure that I was overly prepared

1:16:20obsessively prepared for every small

1:16:23detail.

1:16:24Um because I knew how hard it was going

1:16:26to be to win seven let alone eight. What

1:16:29was different about that phase?

1:16:35Uh

1:16:35I mean coming off of 2004 obviously you

1:16:39know it was my first gold medal right?

1:16:42So

1:16:43you know

1:16:4418 19 years of dreaming of winning a

1:16:47gold medal and it happens.

1:16:49Um you win a couple of them.

1:16:52You get off of that Olympic Games and

1:16:54then literally every headline is Michael

1:16:56Phelps fails because he doesn't win

1:16:59seven gold medals and I'm like

1:17:01>> [laughter]

1:17:01>> what are you talking about? Like this is

1:17:02a joke.

1:17:04Um honestly though like

1:17:05uh you know to just have the chance to

1:17:09win one was incredible but you know

1:17:11winning six in an Olympics and then

1:17:13winning eight in the next Olympics. Um

1:17:17Yeah I was I I was just prepared. You

1:17:18know like I mean even even going back to

1:17:21like the the the quote that Ian Thorpe

1:17:23said going into 2008. He said no one

1:17:26will ever gold medals in an Olympic

1:17:28Games. Like that for me is motivation.

1:17:30Right? Like everything I did during that

1:17:33time

1:17:35you know truly was about trying to be as

1:17:37perfect as I could perfect was going

1:17:40eight eight for eight.

1:17:42Um but again like I was competing

1:17:47against

1:17:48somebody who was pretty much fresh

1:17:51every single time right? Like people go

1:17:53to the Olympics and they might swim one

1:17:54or two races. Exactly.

1:17:56>> Right? And I'm swimming a total of 17

1:18:00races 18 races in

1:18:02eight days. Yeah that was like insane

1:18:05right? That that's fascinating. Like

1:18:08it's a full training week. Like during

1:18:09that week with all of the warm-ups

1:18:12warm-downs so that's that's 2000 2000

1:18:16meters for warm-up 2500 meters for

1:18:19warm-up 2000 meters for warm-down is

1:18:21doing it twice a day plus all the

1:18:23racing. I mean I'm swimming I was

1:18:26swimming like 60,000 meters during a

1:18:28competition week.

1:18:30There are people that don't even train

1:18:3260,000 65,000 yards or meters a week

1:18:37period.

1:18:38So again like

1:18:41everything I did from 2000

1:18:45to the first step I got with Bob from

1:18:47him

1:18:48destroying my strokes and recreating

1:18:50them into what they were throughout my

1:18:52whole entire career

1:18:54got me to that point.

1:18:56>> [snorts]

1:18:56>> So

1:18:57you started competing on 10th August and

1:19:00then 10 11 12 13 there was only like one

1:19:02day I think 15th August was off. I had a

1:19:05morning off.

1:19:05>> Yeah. I had a morning or I had a a

1:19:08morning or an afternoon cuz the finals

1:19:10were in the morning for that Olympics

1:19:13where typically they're in the afternoon

1:19:15or night time.

1:19:16Uh I had one I typically had one session

1:19:19off every every uh

1:19:22every major major competition. Uh Um

1:19:25and and by that point I needed it. Yeah.

1:19:28[laughter] I was so tired by the end of

1:19:30those meets, man.

1:19:32Um

1:19:33You slept Did you sleep the whole day

1:19:34like on 15 when you got got an off

1:19:36between those events?

1:19:37>> Uh no, like during an off day I would

1:19:39wake up normal time.

1:19:41Uh I would I would stay on that

1:19:43schedule, that routine. I would wake up

1:19:46and I would have like a morning like a

1:19:47splash.

1:19:48And then I literally would do

1:19:51800 to 1,000, like not much. I was

1:19:53supposed to do more, but I never did. Um

1:19:57and I would just go and just kind of

1:19:59feel I'm just feel how I was feeling,

1:20:02see if I needed to get a little massage

1:20:04or whatever I needed to stretch or

1:20:06something before the finals. Um

1:20:09go have lunch,

1:20:12watch a movie,

1:20:13play some games. I don't know. Like we

1:20:15were always playing spades or risk,

1:20:18hearts.

1:20:19Um some kind of game to kill time, but

1:20:22yeah, I mean it was it was a pretty

1:20:23normal day. I wouldn't really I wouldn't

1:20:25think about much and by the time the

1:20:28afternoon came we we always have a team

1:20:30meeting before we would go over to the

1:20:33final session.

1:20:35And you know, from the team meeting it

1:20:37was

1:20:39headphones go on.

1:20:41No one talks to me or I don't talk to

1:20:43anybody. They might talk to me, but I I

1:20:45ignore absolutely every noise. Mhm. Get

1:20:48to the pool about 2 hours before my

1:20:50race, stretch for about half hour, dive

1:20:53in the warm-up pool 90 minutes before my

1:20:54race, and then do my warm-up, get out,

1:20:59dry off, put warm clothes on 30 minutes

1:21:02before my race, get my racing suit on,

1:21:04jump back in the pool for 3 to 500, just

1:21:07kind of stroke play, kind of feel my

1:21:09body, make sure everything's going, get

1:21:11out, walk up for the race 15-20 minutes

1:21:13beforehand, and then bang, that's it.

1:21:16You get either

1:21:17I I mean my races were anywhere from

1:21:2247 seconds to

1:21:274 minutes and 3 seconds.

1:21:31That's it.

1:21:33Did you ever feel like taking an off in

1:21:35that alien phase? Taking off? Yeah. Like

1:21:38an off day of training or maybe just you

1:21:40didn't feel like like today is not the

1:21:42day. I'm sure there must have been at

1:21:44least one day where you must have been

1:21:45>> mean, yeah, but I think the goals that I

1:21:47had were were

1:21:50too big. They were big enough where I

1:21:52couldn't take a day off. I couldn't.

1:21:54What did you tell yourself on the day

1:21:56when you were feeling sick and you

1:21:57didn't want to get out of bed?

1:21:58>> I mean, for me like when I when I would

1:22:00get out of bed, the first things I see

1:22:01are my goal sheets.

1:22:03Like literally first thing I wake up,

1:22:05they're on my desk, they're on my

1:22:06bedside table because I you know, for me

1:22:09I want to know why I'm waking up. What

1:22:11is the purpose of that day? Yeah, I

1:22:13might feel like [ __ ] but if I can get

1:22:1510% if I can get 20% if I can get 50%

1:22:18out of that day,

1:22:20then isn't that better than getting

1:22:22zero? Yeah. You know? Like as long as

1:22:24you're not taking a step backwards.

1:22:27Cuz if you are, try to flip that car

1:22:29around and go a different direction,

1:22:30right? Try something different.

1:22:33Um because taking steps back just it it

1:22:35it crushes you. Absolutely crushes you.

1:22:37So what does a goal sheet of an of a

1:22:39world champion looks like? I mean, for

1:22:41me it was

1:22:42they were bro- all of my times were

1:22:44broken down into 50s, right? So like

1:22:48if I'm swimming a 100, it's broken down

1:22:50the first 50 and the second 50, and then

1:22:52it has my total time. They're they're

1:22:54down to the hundredth of a second. Every

1:22:58day you would have this? Well, I just

1:22:59see like I see So I would have

1:23:02short-term goals and long-term goals.

1:23:04Long-term goals are

1:23:06what times do I want to swim at the

1:23:08Olympic Games or World Championships?

1:23:11And then the short-term goals are what

1:23:13times do I need to hit this season in

1:23:15order to give me a chance at the end of

1:23:17the season to rip 154 in the 200 IM or

1:23:21155 in the 200 IM back there.

1:23:23Um

1:23:25And then yeah, it's just I mean

1:23:28and then I basically I I I

1:23:30I wrote I I would write down basically

1:23:32100, 200 free.

1:23:34He would always make me do the mile at

1:23:36least once a year. I [ __ ] hated the

1:23:38mile.

1:23:39Uh

1:23:40100, 200 back, 100, 200 fly, 200, 400 IM

1:23:43cuz I'd swim all of those races

1:23:45throughout the year. And I'd sometimes

1:23:47swim a breaststroke race, too.

1:23:49Um

1:23:50But yeah, I mean like I think for me,

1:23:53you know, for the 400 IM I knew that I

1:23:55had to I knew that they like my strokes

1:23:59had to be at a certain level in order to

1:24:01do the times that I needed to do in the

1:24:03400 IM, right? To be able to add those

1:24:05times together to make the right splits.

1:24:08And it all came what I was doing it it

1:24:09it all came from what I was doing every

1:24:11single day, right? Like if I'm going in

1:24:13like if I'm going in for a practice, my

1:24:15coach like Bob would show me the

1:24:17practice. He'd be like, "These are This

1:24:18is what we're doing today. We're doing

1:24:2010 400 back or 10 200 back short course,

1:24:23and then the last one I want you to try

1:24:25to go 140." I'm like, "All right, cool.

1:24:27Let's go 140." Um and I would start and

1:24:29just descend my way down to that time,

1:24:31and he would give me goals every single

1:24:33day of what to hit in practice because

1:24:35those goals then were hand in hand with

1:24:38what I was trying to do long-term,

1:24:39right? And if I did that every single

1:24:41day and I did, whether it was freestyle,

1:24:44backstroke, breaststroke, butterfly, IM,

1:24:45it didn't matter. I was doing those

1:24:47times back to back to back to back to

1:24:49back to back to back every single week.

1:24:54Why? Because nobody else was.

1:24:56Mhm. What's the definite What's What's

1:24:58the definition of insanity?

1:25:00Doing the same thing over and over again

1:25:01and expecting different results. I was

1:25:03doing different things over and over

1:25:04again expecting different results.

1:25:07I knew I was going to get them because

1:25:08again, there wasn't another person on

1:25:10the planet that was more prepared for me

1:25:12in those last in those two decades of my

1:25:15of my career on this planet. There just

1:25:17wasn't.

1:25:18That's why I was able to have the

1:25:20success that I did. Was it all about

1:25:22competing yourself, the old version of

1:25:25you, or was it about competing with

1:25:27other people who would come

1:25:29as your competition in the Olympics

1:25:31game?

1:25:33I was competing

1:25:34>> were you competing about against

1:25:36yourself or others? No, I was competing

1:25:37against the clock.

1:25:39That's it. Against the clock.

1:25:42That's how my That's how my time or

1:25:43that's how my sport was defined.

1:25:46By a time.

1:25:48How fast can you go?

1:25:50And again, like I was saying,

1:25:54if the times that I dreamt of and I

1:25:56believed that I could go

1:25:59were faster than the world record or

1:26:01faster than what other people believed,

1:26:04if I did those times, guess what would

1:26:07happen?

1:26:08I'm going to win. Yeah. Right? So

1:26:11for me it it it became a numbers game.

1:26:16But it's said that you knew your

1:26:17competition better than you they knew

1:26:19themselves.

1:26:20>> sure. Why would you say that? You would

1:26:22study on them? I mean, I knew how they

1:26:24would swim their races. It's easy,

1:26:26right? Like I I feel like Like would you

1:26:28study your competitors, the way they

1:26:30would do style? What would you study

1:26:31about them?

1:26:32>> Well, I mean like I I always I learned

1:26:34things from them, right? Like I would go

1:26:37back and you know, if you talk about Ian

1:26:39Thorpe, like I would learn from his

1:26:41freestyle and how he swam and his kick

1:26:44and his underwaters and you know, just

1:26:46how his body moved in the water. Um you

1:26:50know, I took a lot of core exercises

1:26:52from different countries that I would

1:26:54see on the pool deck. Um just because

1:26:58like if they're doing it, then I can do

1:27:00it and I can beef it up. Like I can

1:27:03alter the exercise and change it and

1:27:05make a hybrid. Um but like Lochte, like

1:27:08I mean, I swam against Lochte for 15

1:27:12years, 10 or 15 years, right? So

1:27:14um you know, I felt like I knew him

1:27:16almost better than he knew himself just

1:27:18because of the history that we had. And

1:27:21of course, yeah, like I watch a lot of

1:27:22tapes. I I I mean, I I I don't you know,

1:27:25I'm I I don't have any connection to the

1:27:28sport anymore

1:27:31now.

1:27:33Um you know, there are a couple

1:27:34international people that I talk to,

1:27:36couple international athletes that I

1:27:37talk to, but I have zero connection with

1:27:39anything to do with the sport of

1:27:40swimming anymore. Um

1:27:40But yeah, it was it was just I don't

1:27:42know.

1:27:43Studying them? Yeah. You just I mean,

1:27:45cuz it's like

1:27:47you could you yourself can only do so

1:27:49much, right? So it's like if if you

1:27:51can't learn from others or others that

1:27:53have come before you, then

1:27:56you're just never going to grow. And

1:27:57again, like it was always back to that

1:27:58goal of wanting to change the sport and

1:28:00take the sport to a different level and

1:28:02You're talking about Ian Thorpe. He also

1:28:04said

1:28:05it very highly unlikely that you will

1:28:08win eight golds. Yeah, win eight golds.

1:28:10>> you you taped that quote on your locker

1:28:12room. Why would you do that? It was in

1:28:13the back of my locker in in Michigan in

1:28:162008. Um

1:28:18because it it it's kind of like the same

1:28:21story back to my teacher, right? Like my

1:28:23teacher telling me I'd never amount to

1:28:24anything and proving her wrong.

1:28:27And if

1:28:29a fellow competitor and a friend of mine

1:28:31is telling

1:28:33um

1:28:34Excuse me, if a friend of mine and a

1:28:35competitor of mine is telling reporters

1:28:37that it's not possible to win eight gold

1:28:39medals, guess what? I'll have the last

1:28:41laugh. Um and I it's you know, like

1:28:44Thorpe is a great friend of mine, always

1:28:46has been.

1:28:47Um

1:28:48but even like after after that and then

1:28:50after 2016 in Rio cuz he said no one

1:28:54over the age of 30 will win an Olympic

1:28:56gold medal.

1:28:57Um

1:28:58he

1:28:59he sent me a text uh

1:29:01right after and I was giving him [ __ ]

1:29:03for it, and he was like, "Dude, he's

1:29:04like, I know how your mind works. I was

1:29:06just giving you a little extra

1:29:07motivation."

1:29:09Um

1:29:10but no, I I I you know,

1:29:12I I always like proving people wrong

1:29:15especially Especially if they doubt

1:29:16something that I think is possible. Um

1:29:20You know, I think one thing

1:29:22my coach took out of my vocabulary was

1:29:25the word can't.

1:29:27Cuz if you say you can't do something,

1:29:30you can't. Your mind has already made it

1:29:32up for you. Like you made that choice,

1:29:34right? Don't do it. Don't think about it

1:29:36anymore. Don't think about whatever that

1:29:37was. Move on from it. Because it's going

1:29:39to be exponentially harder since you

1:29:41told yourself you can't. Right? So, it's

1:29:44such a negative word. So, we removed it

1:29:46from my my vocabulary and and you know,

1:29:49for me I I I just believe that whatever

1:29:51I did,

1:29:53whatever I dreamt of, excuse me, let me

1:29:55take a step back. Whatever I dreamt of

1:29:58was possible based off of the actions

1:30:01that I did, right? It's back to that

1:30:03quote. Actions speak louder than words.

1:30:05Right? What you do every single day, how

1:30:08you show up, when you show up, it

1:30:10matters. And it's going to matter at the

1:30:12most important time, right? So, um yeah,

1:30:16that's it. Would you ever imagine

1:30:18yourself losing a race?

1:30:20Uh

1:30:21sure.

1:30:22Yeah, why not? What if I lost? Yeah,

1:30:24because I never want it to happen. So,

1:30:26of course.

1:30:27Yeah.

1:30:28Do you do that?

1:30:29>> Yeah.

1:30:30And

1:30:30>> What if I get second by a hundredth of a

1:30:32second instead of winning by a hundredth

1:30:33of a second? Yeah, I'd be [ __ ]

1:30:35pissed. But,

1:30:37the only way I can change that is

1:30:39controlling what I do every day. So,

1:30:42maybe I have to prepare better, right?

1:30:44And was there any Well, I think

1:30:47I think to I think to better answer

1:30:48that, like

1:30:51I remember my losses more than I

1:30:53remember my victories.

1:30:55Because the feeling of defeat

1:30:58I never wanted to have again.

1:31:00Right? Cuz it feels like [ __ ] when you

1:31:02lose. It feels like [ __ ] when you fail.

1:31:04It's not It doesn't feel fun, right? So,

1:31:07for me, I looked at it as if I failed,

1:31:12it was my fault.

1:31:14Because I didn't prepare.

1:31:16I didn't take the time to focus on the

1:31:18small details that are going to help me

1:31:20down the road.

1:31:22So, those defeats

1:31:24motivate me even more to never have that

1:31:27happen again.

1:31:30What's about losing that you hate so

1:31:31much? I just don't like the feeling of

1:31:34somebody being better than me.

1:31:35>> [laughter]

1:31:36>> Um no, honestly, I I think that's what

1:31:38it is. Like I just I like

1:31:40you I think it's it's like you ask the

1:31:44greats or the goats of all sports or

1:31:49probably all walks of life. And and I

1:31:51think they'll say

1:31:53they hate losing more than they enjoy

1:31:55winning.

1:31:57It's just that just the feeling of

1:31:59defeat. Like I just I don't like it.

1:32:01It's just something I I don't enjoy. And

1:32:04if there's something in my control, in

1:32:06my power to make sure that I have a

1:32:08chance at least to succeed,

1:32:11then that's what I'm going to do. And if

1:32:12I fail and I fail because that person is

1:32:15more prepared than me, then so be it.

1:32:17But, I'm not going to show up

1:32:19unprepared, right? Like it's just it's

1:32:21not who I am.

1:32:22Did you use any psychological

1:32:26warfare sort of tactic against your

1:32:28competitors which you secretly would use

1:32:30>> No.

1:32:30>> and not share it with anyone?

1:32:32>> No. I mean,

1:32:35I would say some people probably think

1:32:37me doing my back slap and clearing my

1:32:40throat on the block was a form of trying

1:32:44to get in their head, intimidation. It

1:32:47wasn't. Um you know, the clearing of the

1:32:50throat,

1:32:51I don't know when that came in. I feel

1:32:53like it was maybe post 2008.

1:32:57Um but my arm slaps,

1:33:00I

1:33:01I've been doing [clears throat] those

1:33:02since I was 8 years old,

1:33:047 years old. I've done that my whole

1:33:06life. You know, so it's just a part of

1:33:08what I needed to do in order to get as

1:33:10prepared as I can be. And if what I'm

1:33:13doing is messing up them, it's not my

1:33:15problem. It's not my fault.

1:33:17Right? Like I'm taking care of me. I'm

1:33:19taking care of me and I'm focusing on

1:33:20what I need in that moment. I don't give

1:33:22a [ __ ] about my competitors in that

1:33:23moment. I could care Why? Why would I

1:33:26care about them?