Andrew Huberman: Become Mentally Dangerous With These Daily Habits | FO556 Raj Shamani

0:00the person that can turn their mind off

0:02in the final hour of their day and get

0:04the better, deeper sleep, I'm going to

0:05put all my money on that person.

0:07>> How turn off.

0:08>> The next time you have trouble asleep or

0:10getting back to sleep, keeping your eyes

0:12closed, slowly move your eyes to one

0:13side, then to the other side. Then

0:15you're going to move your eyes

0:16counterclockwise, then clockwise. Then

0:18kind of look towards the tip of your

0:19nose. You're not crossing your eyes, and

0:21then exhale. Now, when you do that, you

0:23disrupt the propriceptive circuits.

0:26Propriception is the knowledge of where

0:28your limbs are in space. To fall asleep,

0:30you need to forget your body position.

0:32This is the first critical step in

0:34falling asleep that nobody talks about.

0:36>> That really works.

0:37>> It really works. Andrew Huberman,

0:40professor and neuroscientists at

0:41Stanford and host of Hubberman Lab, one

0:44of the biggest and most influential

0:46science podcasts in the world. This is a

0:48masterclass in training your brain to

0:50become sharper, stronger, and harder to

0:53stop. If I give you a 25year-old

0:56someone, how can they have this

0:58unbreakable, unshakable mindset, like an

1:01elite performer mindset that they will

1:02never collapse under pressure?

1:04>> I've never really discussed this on the

1:05podcast. If I only had 5 minutes to talk

1:08to somebody, [music] I would say, look,

1:10this is the best thing you can do for

1:11your health and wellbeing and

1:12performance. High morning cortisol, low

1:15nighttime cortisol. Cortisol's main job

1:17is to deploy glucose and lipids from

1:20areas in your body that give you energy.

1:22It's an energy deploying hormone.

1:23[music] So, how do we do this? The best

1:25way to spike that morning cortisol is to

1:27get bright light in your eyes within the

1:29first 30 to 60 minutes of your day.

1:30Let's keep in mind, you can drink some

1:32water during this [music] time. You can

1:33drink your morning tea or coffee if you

1:35like. If you can exercise in that first

1:37hour, [music] great. But this simple

1:39behavior is going to boost your morning

1:40cortisol levels. This is the key to

1:43long-term resilience and becoming, as

1:45you call it, dangerous. If there are two

1:47people, one sees that risk and jumps.

1:50The another thinks about it but then

1:51freezes. What happens in the brain of

1:54that person who's freezing and not

1:55taking the risk? They're imagining how

1:57great it could go. We think they're

1:59imagining how terrible it could go. But

2:01what causes us to choke is so much is at

2:04stake. If I can't do this, I can't do

2:05anything.

2:06>> Can you build courage?

2:08>> Absolutely. [music] Absolutely.

2:09Incremental. You get people to their

2:11edge of agitation and you let them just

2:13live there.

2:15>> When have you felt the most powerless in

2:17your life?

2:18Well, that's a great question. You ask

2:20hard questions, my friend. Um,

2:26>> I have a small favor to ask you. I need

2:28you to subscribe to our channel. The

2:31more subscribers we have, the better and

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2:35you more value through these

2:37conversations. And also, the full audio

2:40experience of the show is available on

2:42Spotify where you can follow us and

2:44stream and listen to all our episodes.

2:51Welcome on our show, Andrew Hooperman.

2:54>> Thank you for having me.

2:55>> Thank you. It's it's an honor to have

2:57you here.

2:58>> Oh, wow. Thank you. Well, delighted to

2:59be here.

3:00>> So, tell me further, if someone's

3:03watching you for the first time and they

3:05have never heard or seen you or they

3:09have no clue who you are, how would you

3:11explain them what you do and why they

3:13should watch this podcast?

3:14>> Okay. Uh, two sentences of history. Uh

3:17just to orient people, I'm 50 year old

3:1950 years old. Um I spent nearly three

3:23decades as a neuroscientist. Um I'm

3:26still a tenure professor at Stanford

3:27School of Medicine. I now teach uh

3:30neuroscience um to medical students and

3:33um do some other teaching as well. Until

3:35very recently, I ran a research

3:36laboratory. So that was really my life

3:39from about age 19 until fairly recently.

3:42Um, so studying how the brain wires up

3:46during development, how it can change

3:48so-called neuroplasticity and learning,

3:50also some interest in neural

3:51regeneration and diseases of the eye and

3:54of the nervous system. Um, so that's my

3:56my academic grounding and my hands-on

4:00experience.

4:01>> Um, I've had a long-standing interest in

4:04health and fitness. um both running,

4:07resistance training, bit of martial

4:09arts, a number of different things um

4:11that I've been very consistent with for

4:13the last 35 years. So, while I'm not a

4:16certified expert trainer or anything of

4:19that sort, I've I like to think I've

4:20tried many of the things that do and

4:22don't work. And um I have thoughts both

4:26about the science around those and what

4:28I've found works best for me and that I

4:30think could be of value to people. In

4:332021, I decided to start a podcast

4:35called Huberman Lab. Turns out I also

4:37had Huberman Lab at Stanford School of

4:39Medicine, but Huberman Lab podcast,

4:41which is myself and a few other guys um

4:44who uh put cameras in front of me and I

4:48started talking about how the brain

4:51wires up, how you can change it, how

4:53sleep works, how you can optimize it. um

4:56mental health uh modern treatments for

4:59mental health issues, everything from

5:00depression to OCD to uh anorexia,

5:03covering the scientific literature and

5:05offering what I call protocols um which

5:08are um scripted ways to improve

5:12something or optimize something or

5:13reduce a pain point. Um using behavioral

5:17tools, some things you do, behavioral

5:20tools, some things you avoid. Um, we do

5:22talk about nutrition, supplementation,

5:24and prescription drugs as well. So, I

5:26cover all of it. So, I'm happy to talk

5:28about peptides, both of the conventional

5:30and unconventional kind. I'm happy to

5:32talk about hormone therapies. I'm happy

5:33to talk about behavioral tools. So, the

5:35podcast encompasses all of that. And

5:38I've largely done solos where I talk

5:40about these things sort of university

5:42lecture style. Um, but I also host

5:44expert guests in these areas because my

5:46network of science and um medical doctor

5:50scientists, excuse me, and medical

5:52doctors is pretty vast and I know some

5:54of the the best in the world. I don't

5:55know all of them, but I I'm very blessed

5:57to know uh many of them and they have

5:59incredible knowledge that I feel the the

6:01world should have. So, I think that's

6:03probably how you found me. That's why

6:05I'm here. And and my real love in life

6:07is learning and teaching

6:09>> things that I believe can be useful to

6:11people.

6:12>> Perfect. That makes two of us.

6:14[laughter]

6:14>> Yeah, we share a kinship in that.

6:16Absolutely.

6:16>> So based on everything that you've

6:19learned, experimented, watch it fail, uh

6:22you know, acquired knowledge from other

6:25people on and your own experiments and

6:28everything, right? I I want to know if I

6:31give you a 25 year old someone, okay,

6:34right now today, and your only job is to

6:37make them mentally dangerous in next 10

6:41years. mentally dangerous.

6:42>> Dangerous. Like

6:43>> could you define dangerous?

6:45>> Like how do you how can they have this

6:47unbreakable, unshakable mindset like an

6:50elite performer mindset that they can

6:52they will never collapse under pressure

6:54like someone who can handle everything

6:56in their life and they can choose and

6:58pinpoint what to do and then be able to

7:01do that. Because here's the problem.

7:04What I feel

7:07a lot of young people like me, we watch

7:10uh people like you, we understand and

7:11learn everything from you. And then half

7:13of the things we are like Monday we're

7:15excited when we watch you and then by

7:17Thursday we're done. Like nothing works

7:19out. We don't change our lives very

7:21easily, right? A lot of people don't do

7:22that. So if I give you someone like this

7:2520-year-old right now and your job is to

7:29make them me mentally extraordinary or

7:31mentally dangerous in next 10 years

7:33where would you begin?

7:34>> It's a great question. Um so my answer

7:38is at first going to sound a little um

7:41basic

7:42>> but I think it's very important to

7:43understand the principles behind what

7:45I'm going to say as opposed to just the

7:47specifics. In fact, this is a broader

7:49theme I believe people should take to

7:52any discussion about health or

7:54performance, which is there going to be

7:56many many protocols. Do this, do it this

7:59way, do it then, don't do it that way,

8:01don't do it then. But the real question

8:03is what are the principles that are

8:05anchoring those statements? Why do I say

8:08this? Well, because ultimately new

8:10protocols will come along, new peptides

8:12will come along, new podcasters will

8:13come along. And the most important

8:16thing, the most important thing is to be

8:18able to place what you hear into a

8:20framework of, okay, that makes sense.

8:23There's a mechanism to support that or

8:25look, we don't have any knowledge of how

8:26that would work, but I'll try it and see

8:28if it works, provided it's safe, and so

8:30on.

8:32The most important thing for this

8:3525-year-old hypothetical person to do is

8:37to understand that there are a few

8:39non-negotiables in their physiology and

8:42psychology that are directly linked that

8:44they have to obey as often as possible.

8:47Notice I didn't say every single day,

8:48but as often as possible in order to get

8:51the most out of their life.

8:54>> What What are those? Well, as weird as

8:57it may sound, the most important thing

8:59to do is to ensure, and there are ways

9:03to do that we can talk about in a

9:05moment, to ensure that you have high

9:07morning cortisol levels,

9:09>> the so-called stress hormone, which is

9:10not a stress hormone. We'll talk about

9:12why it's involved in stress, but

9:14cortisol is involved in much, much more.

9:16You want to take steps, simple steps

9:18that I'll describe to amplify your

9:21morning cortisol in the first hour or

9:23two of your day. and to make sure that

9:26in the last hour or so of your day, most

9:29days, your cortisol is low. Now, why?

9:33What? What? What in the world? Like,

9:34okay, but if you were going to build a

9:35human machine, okay, and I'm not talking

9:37about psychology now, but you wanted to

9:39build a human machine. And actually,

9:40let's make it a happy

9:42>> quote unquote dangerous machine, you

9:44would say, get that morning cortisol

9:46peak as as high as you can. Get your

9:48nighttime, last hour before sleep

9:50cortisol level as low as you can. Why?

9:53When you do that, it sets this person up

9:57to have vastly higher levels of daytime

10:01energy, focus, ability to learn,

10:05resilience to stress when stress comes

10:07along,

10:08and

10:10ease in falling to sleep, deep sleep,

10:13rapid eye movement sleep. These are the

10:14things of repair of the body, repair of

10:16the mind, consolidating learning,

10:19removing the emotional load of previous

10:22day experiences that might have been,

10:24you know, difficult or stressful, taking

10:26off the emotional load so they can go

10:28into the next day and they can continue

10:29to show up for their family, their work,

10:32their health, and so on and so forth. It

10:34also turns out this pattern of high

10:36morning cortisol, low nighttime cortisol

10:39is the pattern that men, women, people

10:42of all ages should have to optimize

10:45their immune system function. So, we're

10:47talking about getting sick less and on

10:48and on and on. In fact, I've never

10:51really discussed this on the podcast,

10:53but if I only had 5 minutes to talk to

10:57somebody, I would say, "Look, this is

10:59the best thing you can do for your

11:00health and well-being and performance."

11:02high morning cortisol, low nighttime

11:05cortisol. So, how how did we do this?

11:08People are probably immediately

11:09wondering. Um, before I answer, I'll

11:11just add one additional fact. Most

11:12people have heard of melatonin, this

11:14hormone that we secrete at night in

11:16darkness that light suppresses. It helps

11:18us fall and stay asleep.

11:21Most people don't realize that in order

11:23to get sufficient melatonin release, you

11:25need limited light exposure to your

11:28eyes. So, that's why it's good to dim

11:29dim dim the lights. You also want your

11:30body temperature cooling. Your core body

11:32temperature going down is what brings

11:34melatonin up. Cortisol and melatonin are

11:37on opposite cycles.

11:39>> High cortisol inhibits melatonin

11:42indirectly, but it does it. So, if your

11:44morning cortisol is high, your morning

11:46melatonin from the night before will be

11:49lower, more alertness. If your nighttime

11:52cortisol is low, your melatonin peak can

11:54go higher. many issues related to

11:57falling and staying asleep become

11:58trivial under those conditions. They

12:00just kind of disappear. So, we should

12:03ask ourselves, what are the things to do

12:05to boost our morning cortisol levels?

12:07And notice I'm saying morning, I'm not

12:08saying 6:00 a.m. because one thing that

12:11is very important is given the

12:14flexibility, some people really do best

12:16waking up between 8 and 10:00 a.m. and

12:19going to sleep later. Some people do

12:21best waking up between 5 and 7 a.m. and

12:23going to bed earlier. And some people

12:25are kind of someplace in the middle.

12:26Like for you for instance, what is your

12:28if you could control everything about

12:30your sleepwake schedule, what time would

12:31you go to sleep?

12:33>> Like two,

12:34>> right? Yeah.

12:35>> Like 1 or 2.

12:36>> And what time would you wake up?

12:38>> 9 10.

12:40>> Great. So let's call 10. 10 a.m. is your

12:42morning. 6:30 a.m. is my morning. That

12:44doesn't make me a better or worse

12:45person. Doesn't make you a better or

12:46worse person. We're just different. But

12:48when I say morning, I'm not giving a

12:49clock time. I'm giving a within the

12:51first hour or two of waking. Okay. All

12:54right. How do you boost your morning

12:56cortisol? We're building this ultra

12:58dangerous person.

12:59>> Okay.

12:59>> Great.

13:00>> But be before we actually build this,

13:02why did you start with morning and not

13:04the night before?

13:06>> It's a good question, but the answer is

13:08that this peak in cortisol cause because

13:12it's on a what's called a negative

13:13feedback loop. it actually inhibits

13:16itself so that once you create that

13:18peak, it ensures that the afternoon and

13:21evening cortisol is low. And I'll

13:23explain why that is in in a few minutes

13:25if that's okay. Um, so getting that

13:28morning peak going, it's like a

13:29wavefront that starts the 24-hour cycle.

13:32>> Okay. Okay. So, let's assume you go to

13:35sleep anywhere from 6 to 8 hours the

13:37night before.

13:38>> Okay. Um when you are in your deep deep

13:42sleep, so two or three hours into your

13:44sleep, your cortisol is at its very

13:47lowest just naturally. Okay,

13:50your cortisol intrinsically with no

13:54input from the world starts to climb in

13:56the hours afterwards slowly slowly and

13:58then faster and faster and faster. So

14:00that in the third uh phase of your

14:03sleep, if we just divide your sleep into

14:05three blocks, in that last third, your

14:08cortisol is rising very fast and so is

14:11your body temperature and then at some

14:13point you wake up. Now it could be

14:15because of an alarm clock. It could be

14:16because you wake up naturally. That is

14:18literally called the cortisol awakening

14:20response and it is the reason you wake

14:23up. So when people say cortisol is a

14:25stress hormone, you don't want your

14:26cortisol too high. That's true for the

14:28evening and night time. It's not true

14:30for your morning. You want your cortisol

14:34basically spiking first thing in the

14:36morning. So you get up, cortisol is now

14:38elevated. Cortisol's main job is not to

14:43deal with stress. That's just one of its

14:45jobs. Its main job is to deploy glucose

14:47and lipids from areas in your body that

14:50give you energy. It's an energy

14:52deploying hormone.

14:53>> Okay.

14:54>> Okay. So that cortisol peak is rising

14:56very very fast. The best way to spike

15:00that morning cortisol is to get bright

15:01light in your eyes within the first 30

15:03to 60 minutes of your day. In fact, you

15:05have a unique opportunity at that time

15:07to spike your cortisol up to 50% 50.

15:10Now, there's two ways to do it. The best

15:12way to do it is to go outside, take off

15:15any brimmed hat you might have or

15:17sunglasses.

15:18Eyeglasses and contacts are fine. Look

15:20in the direction of the sun. Now, you

15:22wake up later than I do. So, when I wake

15:25up, the sun is just coming across the

15:26horizon. That's great. If it's higher in

15:29the sky, that's fine, too. Never look at

15:31the sun um in any way that that makes it

15:35too bright to look out. You blink, in

15:37other words, to protect your eyes. But

15:38you can squint. You can look a little

15:40bit off and away from the sun. But that

15:41bright light from the sun is full

15:42spectrum. It includes the short

15:44wavelength, medium wavelengths, and long

15:46wavelengths that are optimal for getting

15:48this cortisol peak.

15:50In fact, if you do that, you'll get a

15:52big peak in cortisol within 5 to 10

15:54minutes. On cloudy days, on overcast

15:56days, it's especially important to do

15:58that because you're going to likely be

16:00spending more time indoors on overcast

16:01days. Okay? Ideally, 5 minutes or 10

16:04minutes. Keep in mind, you can drink

16:06some water during this time. You can

16:08drink your morning tea or coffee if you

16:09like. You can do other things that,

16:11believe it or not, hydration boosts

16:12cortisol. Caffeine further boosts

16:15cortisol. If you can exercise in that

16:17first hour, great. Most people don't

16:19jump right into exercise, but this

16:22simple behavior is going to boost your

16:24morning cortisol levels.

16:26That essentially establishes the the

16:29relationship between cortisol,

16:31melatonin, and your circadian clock. So

16:33the next day, your morning cortisol will

16:35start to rise in anticipation of this

16:38peak. It's becomes what we call

16:39entrained. So I'm listing off some

16:41protocols. Morning sunlight, but it

16:42takes 5 10 minutes. and you hydrate and

16:44you drink some caffeine, maybe you move

16:45your body a little bit, take a walk,

16:47some jumping jacks or something light

16:49like that. You can bring uh your spouse

16:51or your kids or whatever and you can

16:53just enjoy that time. Try not to look at

16:56your phone during this time. Do not stay

16:58in bed and look at your phone. Okay,

16:59this has also a forcing function on not

17:02doing certain things.

17:04Now, if you are able to get some

17:06physical exercise in this hypothetical

17:08situation, I'd take this 25-year-old and

17:10I'd say, "Listen, I know you don't like

17:12to work out first thing in the morning,

17:14but you're going to either do some

17:15cardiovascular training or some

17:17resistance training, [snorts] one or the

17:20other for six days a week. One day a

17:22week, you can get complete rest. Okay?

17:24And I can explain later what the optimal

17:25protocol for uh for excuse me for

17:28exercise I believe is for the typical

17:30person wanting to be strong and have

17:31endurance and and build resilience as

17:34well brain plasticity and so on. Okay.

17:37The long and short of this is if

17:39somebody were to do that in the first

17:42hour to two hours of the day

17:46the cortisol then starts to drop

17:48gradually around let's say about four or

17:51five hours after they've been awake.

17:53drops drop just naturally it just drops.

17:54Now let's say you get a disturbing text

17:56a you've got a deadline you're stressed

17:58cortisol will get deployed but the peak

18:00in cortisol will be very brief. Okay.

18:04Now, as that person heads into the

18:06evening, probably still working. We'll

18:08talk about this. Maybe some bright

18:10lights. You can't control the

18:11environment. You you are now buffered

18:13against some of that. You're protected.

18:15And then at night, in the final hour

18:17before sleep, it's dim the lights.

18:19Obviously, avoid caffeine in the final 8

18:21hours before sleep. Most days, I'm

18:22drinking a little caffeine now cuz I got

18:24up very early today and it's late in the

18:26day now, but I can have a little bit.

18:29That's me. Some people might not be able

18:30to. You want to really emphasize

18:32lowering your cortisol. Long exhale

18:34breathing is great if you find yourself

18:36too stressed and you're kind of getting

18:37ready for bed. Why long exhale

18:40breathing? There's so much has been made

18:42of breath work and meditation. But just

18:44to encapsulate all of breath work which

18:47you know I long before it came to the

18:50United States in scientific form people

18:52in India have been doing breath work of

18:53various forms. So I want to acknowledge

18:55that. But there's something called

18:57respiratory sinus arrhythmia, which is

18:59just a fancy term for when you inhale

19:02with vigor and you extend your inhales,

19:05it speeds your heart rate up. Why?

19:07Because the diaphragm moves down, the

19:09heart gets a little bit bigger in

19:10volume. Blood within the heart moves a

19:12little more slowly and the nervous

19:14system sends a signal to speed the heart

19:16rate up every inhale. When you exhale,

19:22especially if you deliberately extend

19:24the exhale, because the diaphragm moves

19:26up, the heart gets a little bit more

19:28compact or smaller in volume. Blood in

19:30there moves more quickly in that smaller

19:32volume. And the vagus nerve, which

19:34connects the body and brain in both

19:36direction, sends a signal to the heart

19:38to slow your heart rate down. This is

19:40the basis of so-called HRV, heart rate

19:42variability. for people wearing an Aura

19:44or a Whoop or using an eightlee or any

19:46other device and you say high HRV is

19:49good, right? What is high HRV? High HRV

19:53is your parasympathetic nervous system,

19:55this relaxing arm of the of your

19:57autonomic nervous system hitting the

19:59brakes on your heart rate. [sighs]

20:02If you want a higher HRV, you can

20:04exercise. You know, another great way to

20:06increase your HRV, do five extended

20:08exhales during your day. Just anytime

20:11you just

20:13You're slowing your heart rate down in

20:15your sleep. Your heart rate, your HIV

20:17will be HRV will be higher. Most people

20:20don't realize it. Significantly higher.

20:22You're teaching your nervous system to

20:24slow your heart rate down just by five

20:26exhales in a day

20:28>> or three or one long one before sleep.

20:32[sighs]

20:33When you do an extended deliberate

20:35exhale, you slow your heart rate down.

20:37You lower your cortisol levels. Takes a

20:40few minutes to lower your cortisol

20:41levels. and you calm yourself down. When

20:43you hold your breath or you move about

20:45your day and you're inhaling [snorts] a

20:47lot and you're on average you're

20:49inhaling more vigorously than your

20:50exhales, your heart rate's going to be

20:52climbing up. So throughout the day your

20:53heart rate's doing this, it's doing

20:55this. HRV, if you think, well, that's

20:57weird. Why would we want our heart rate

20:59variable? Shouldn't we want it nice and

21:00even? No, no, no, no. Because the HRV

21:03reflects the pumping of the brake on

21:04your on your stress system. Okay? So in

21:08that final hour, you are ideally you're

21:11not drinking too many fluids cuz you'll

21:13wake up. But if you're a little thirsty,

21:14drink some fluids. No big deal. You're

21:16avoiding caffeine. You're dimming the

21:17lights. Why dimming the lights? Because

21:19light hits a specialized set of neurons

21:22in the eye called the intrinsically

21:23photosensitive melanops and retinal

21:25ganglion cells. Okay? Those cells

21:27connect directly to a little region over

21:29your hypothalamus which is your

21:30circadian clock which then connects to

21:33another nucleus in your hypo

21:34hypothalamus and so on and so forth and

21:36then inhibits the release of melatonin

21:38from your pineal gland. All this can be

21:40made very simple viewing bright light

21:42ideally from sunlight in the first hour

21:44of the day spikes your cortisol through

21:46a similar mechanis circuit with a little

21:49twist and in the evening bright light

21:52will inhibit melatonin.

21:54So, bright mornings and days, dim nights

21:59or dark nights, that's the ideal

22:01situation. And we can really flush this

22:03out even more. But I should say if you

22:05don't have access to sunlight for some

22:08reason, you would do well to um most

22:11people do well to purchase a 10,000 lux

22:14artificial light. I have one when I

22:16travel that's about the size of a

22:17tablet. Um it looks a bit like the

22:19lights in this room. That very bright

22:21light is sufficient to boost your

22:23morning cortisol. Sunlight is better

22:25because it's full spectrum, but

22:26sometimes I don't have access to one.

22:28But I'm the guy on the plane looking at

22:30that light for a few minutes each

22:32morning. I have one in my home even

22:33though I do go outside. So when I wake

22:35up and use the bathroom, I have one in

22:36my bathroom. I have one in the kitchen.

22:38So I'm making my morning coffee or tea.

22:40I have it there. And so I'm getting

22:41blasted with bright light early in the

22:43day. And then at night, I'm either in

22:46dim light or I generally don't use

22:49candle light because I worry about

22:50burning things down, you know, if I fall

22:52asleep with a candles down. But I

22:54everything's dimmed way way down. Okay,

22:57now this sounds extreme,

23:01>> but we're really talking about 5 to 10

23:03minutes in the morning, things you would

23:05do anyway,

23:06>> right? Hydrate, caffeine, most likely,

23:09>> exercise, ideally that takes a bit

23:10longer. And then at night, things that

23:12you need to turn off the lights at some

23:13point.

23:14>> You need to bring your level of

23:15activation down. Learning to turn your

23:18mind off. This is the key to long-term

23:21resilience and becoming, as you call it,

23:24dangerous. If you are somebody who can

23:27push, push push on the gas pedal, but

23:28you don't know how to turn your mind

23:30off.

23:32Let's make it competitive. This will get

23:34people going. Give me two people.

23:36>> Both can work very very hard, vote, both

23:39extremely committed to their goals and

23:43both have perfect circumstances in terms

23:45of access to to food and exercise and

23:47all the things. The person that can turn

23:50their mind off in the final hour of

23:52their day and get the better, deeper

23:55sleep, I'm gonna put all my money on

23:56that person within 5 to 10 years, far

24:00surpassing the other. How to turn off if

24:03someone super competitive is already

24:06feeling like they've lost in some way

24:08because the internet has made them

24:10believe that they've lost it already,

24:12right? So, they're in the hyper

24:13competitive mode. They just don't know

24:15how to turn off. M

24:17>> how can somebody turn off and be

24:20>> and feel less restless?

24:21>> Yeah, this is a great question and and

24:23it's going to take us a little bit in

24:24the in the uh direction of psychology.

24:28>> Um so I just want to make sure before we

24:31move on that I've closed the hatch on

24:33boost your morning cortisol by sunlight

24:34or 10,000 lux artificial light.

24:37>> Hydrate. Listen, do this every morning.

24:39But if you wake up on a plane and you

24:40don't happen to have this 10,000 lux

24:42light, open the window. If you can't do

24:43that, you're you're going to be fine.

24:44You'll you'll live a day, you know.

24:46You'll live a day. You'll, you know, so

24:47do the other things. Hydrate, drink some

24:49caffeine. Like I don't you don't want to

24:51burn extra energy on the neuroticism of

24:55trying to get everything right.

24:56>> That's making you weak, right? You need

24:59and I look at every opportunity

25:02to build resilience. This like like I we

25:04were saying before we started recording,

25:06I you know, yesterday I had far less

25:08sleep than I normally get. I feel great

25:10today. I have a practice for that which

25:11I can talk about recovering mental and

25:13physical vigor. But I really wanted to

25:16see my best childhood friend who's a

25:18neurosurgeon and neuroscientist do a

25:19neurosurgery and be there and also

25:22recorded yesterday and I very much

25:23wanted to be here and it meant flying

25:26yesterday and the flight was delayed. So

25:27instead of getting angry about the

25:29flight being delayed, I always ask

25:31myself one of two questions. Do I

25:33completely relax or do I continue to

25:35work? What I don't do is any in between.

25:38I am perfectly fine just sitting there

25:40completely relaxing. Yes, let yourself

25:42scroll social media for a short period

25:44of time. Let yourself watch a movie,

25:46socialize, text with friends, call your

25:49mother. You know, I'm on my mother, so

25:50call me more. So, but don't do a hybrid

25:53of the two or really focus in and get

25:57some work done. At the airport

25:58yesterday, I decided I'd had a long day.

26:00I knew that today was going to be a long

26:02but exciting one. Decided to just get

26:05complete rest. on the flight into San

26:06Francisco. I took a brief nap, got to my

26:09hotel, got things settled, and I could

26:11feel my my mind going towards h I'm

26:14going to be tomorrow is going to what

26:16good does that do? And you always should

26:18be asking the question,

26:21is this in the left column or the right

26:23column? And I'll explain what that

26:24means. A guy named Andy Stump, he's a a

26:27former what we call tier one SEAL team

26:29operator. He has a podcast called

26:31Clearing Hot. Um he's super impressive

26:34guy from his work in the SEAL teams and

26:35he went on to break two world records

26:37doing other difficult dangerous things

26:39but he has this exercise that he shared

26:41with me which I do which is you take out

26:43a sheet of paper you do this about once

26:44a month and you write down in the left

26:47column all the things that concern you

26:49what people think of me the what I see

26:51I'm worries everything you put all that

26:53in the left column in the right column

26:54you put all the things that you can

26:58actually control what can you do

27:01exercise, hydrate, sleep, practice

27:04turning your brain off, call your

27:06mother, you know, all the things that

27:09and what you realize is that you really

27:11don't have any control over the things

27:12in the left column. And we all know

27:14this, but this exercise,

27:16it's so valuable. I'm so glad Andy

27:18taught it to me. He I read it about it

27:21first in his book Drown, which is an

27:22excellent book, but then he described it

27:24to me directly

27:26for the month afterwards. You notice

27:29when things are in the left column or

27:30the right column. So last night I was

27:31thinking, oh god, like if I even thought

27:34because this is the way the mind goes. H

27:36someone sets off a fire alarm or

27:38someone's loud in the hotel, I'm going

27:39to get even le. I'm like, can I control

27:42that? No, I can't control it. You notice

27:44how crazy the mind is with all these

27:47concerns and how few of those concerns

27:48you can actually impact. So that's the

27:52main way you do it. And every

27:55opportunity to stress is an opportunity

27:57to practice stress resilience. Every

27:59opportunity uh to stress is an

28:02opportunity to let go of some component.

28:05These opportunities come all day long.

28:07You know, you don't have to be David

28:08Gogggins to be in the pressure test all

28:11day long. We are all in the pressure

28:12test. And even just keeping your mind in

28:16that right column. So I actually around

28:18our podcast studio and with my friends

28:20we we're sort of have this saying now

28:22like that's a left column issue like

28:24don't like and and so it becomes this

28:26question I think it varies culturally do

28:28you talk about it or does that build it

28:31>> maybe talking about things allows you to

28:32expune it to delete it I think it builds

28:35it stay in the right column and when

28:37your mind starts drifting into the left

28:39column great that's a great opportunity

28:42to practice getting your mind back over

28:44into the right hand column how do you do

28:46that you Think about literal actions.

28:49You get extremely present. I can take a

28:51sip of water. Might sound trivial. I can

28:53smell what the air is like in here.

28:55Feels good. It's so quiet in here. I

28:57really like the background quiet of this

28:58place. I've enjoyed meeting you. I

29:01learned about some new neuroch already

29:02based on the the devices on your temple.

29:05Like you can really get present and

29:06suddenly because of this is comes from

29:08my training as a neuroscientist. The

29:10brain works in what are called dynamic

29:12attractor states which I is not a way of

29:14trying to sound academic or fancy. Think

29:16of your thoughts and your emotions as a

29:19ball bearing on a flat surface. But as

29:21you think more about something, that

29:23surface starts to become concave. And as

29:26you learn more about it and you go into

29:27it and you think about it, it becomes a

29:29trench. And now that ball bearing is

29:30locked in that trench. And typically it

29:32takes something very robust like

29:36calling a friend and them saying, "What

29:38are you doing?" or getting a good

29:40night's sleep or exercise or some great

29:43event to knock that ball bearing back

29:45onto its flat surface again. But you are

29:48in charge of your mind. And you know, at

29:5050 years old, I finally realized that

29:53it's possible to control one's thoughts.

29:56It it really is. You can you can learn

29:58to steer your thoughts. You can't

30:00eliminate thoughts, but you can take

30:02your mind to where it needs to go. And

30:04there opportunities all day long to

30:06practice this. Right before I came in

30:08here, I went in the bathroom. Yes, I use

30:10the bathroom. And I have a practice of

30:12prayer. Right before I do or go on any

30:15podcast, I ask for clarity. I ask for

30:20the opportunity to share knowledge that

30:21I hope will be useful to people. I offer

30:24up the opportunity for new unexpected

30:27things to come through. I did I did

30:29that. I do it every single time because

30:32I take you and I take this very

30:33seriously, right? People are giving us

30:35their time. I'm not a person who

30:39neurotically, you know, controls every

30:41aspect of of my life, but I take every

30:43opportunity I can to make my life better

30:46because in this case, I like to think

30:48that us having a a richer conversation

30:51will benefit people more. So, learn to

30:54turn it off. But that comes from

30:56practice and you're getting micro reps

30:58all day long. The more stress, the more

31:00opportunity. The more stress, the more

31:01opportunity. Now, in order to learn to

31:03fall asleep at night, high morning

31:05cortisol. Don't drink caffeine too late

31:07in the day. Get exercise at some point,

31:09ideally in the first half of your day,

31:11but if you have to do it in the evening,

31:12do it in the evening. But I am a huge

31:16huge believer, practitioner and fan of a

31:19practice that originated in India, which

31:22is called yoga nidra. This, in addition

31:25to the morning high and nighttime low

31:28cortisol, is in my mind the most

31:30powerful tool that we can cultivate

31:32because it teaches you to turn off

31:35thinking and planning and allows you to

31:38learn how to get into pure sensation. It

31:41sounds so squishy, but I'll tell you, no

31:44drug will do this, at least not in a

31:45healthy way. Any drug that takes you out

31:47of thinking and planning and just into

31:49pure sensation, that drug is going to

31:51rebound you into a rough place when you

31:53come out of it. Yoga nidra and in

31:56fairness I you know I a few years back I

31:58started calling it non-sleep deep rest

32:00that was not this is a great opportunity

32:03to talk to your audience uh who may know

32:06that you know some people were critical

32:07of that decision. The reason for that is

32:10I wanted people to understand the real

32:11value of this practice and I always make

32:14the effort to credit yoga nidra as the

32:16the origin of it. I take no credit for

32:19this practice but in quote unquote the

32:22west such a silly term right but in the

32:25west there's there's this assumption

32:27people hear yoga and they think movement

32:29and then a lot of people who they think

32:31I don't want to do yoga I don't which is

32:34just their own limitation but yoga nidra

32:36involves what it involves lying or

32:38sitting down you know this I'm sure long

32:41exhale breathing slowing the heart rate

32:43down deliberately

32:46noticing My mind is in a mode of

32:48thinking and doing and planning. I'm

32:51going to move it into pure sensation.

32:53Just focus on what I hear, what I feel.

32:56This is so critical. This is the first

32:59and most basic step in what I call

33:01turning your mind off. It's turning off

33:03planning and thinking and doing. And

33:05it's a skill. You do this for 10, 20, or

33:0830 minutes one, three, or seven days a

33:11week. And across a couple of years, you

33:13get very good at it. So, I started it in

33:152017 and I thought to myself, this is

33:18remarkable. I can fall asleep more

33:19easily if I wake up in the middle of the

33:21night. I know how to turn my mind off.

33:24>> Do that again.

33:25>> I do it again for 10 minutes. There's

33:27also an eye movement trick that you can

33:28do. You want to hear something really

33:30wacky? So, there's a paper published a

33:32few years ago where they developed this

33:34giant bed that rocks back and forth and

33:36people fall asleep very quickly. Hm.

33:39Okay. Well, I don't have a rocking bed.

33:41You don't have a rocking bed. it's not

33:43very practical. There's also a paper

33:45published in um a really fine journal

33:47showing that there's a particular rate

33:49of walking and swaying that parents

33:51naturally find that puts their baby to

33:53sleep and it matches the same rocking

33:55speed, right? It's a very slow back and

33:57forth rocking. Say, okay, this is

33:58age-old wisdom, but what does this do?

34:02You would think it was the physical

34:03sensation and in some sense it is but

34:07turns out and this is the basis of some

34:08new technologies that I'm not a part of

34:11but I've had the opportunity to try of

34:12eye masks that can induce sleep. The

34:15next time you have trouble falling

34:16asleep or getting back to sleep. Keeping

34:18your eyes closed slowly move your eyes

34:20to one side then to the other side.

34:24Then you're going to move your eyes

34:25counterclockwise. I told you it would be

34:27kind of crazy. Then clockwise. Then kind

34:29of look towards the tip of your nose.

34:30You're not crossing your eyes. and then

34:32exhale. Now when you do that because

34:35there is a relationship between the eyes

34:37and your cerebellum this area of your

34:39brain that is primitive area of your

34:42brain that controls balance

34:45you disrupt the what we call

34:47proprioceptive circuits. Proprioception

34:50is the knowledge of where your limbs are

34:52in space. To fall asleep you need to

34:54forget your body position. This is the

34:57first critical step in falling asleep

34:59that nobody talks about. And so now

35:01there's some really interesting

35:02technology stimulating and inhibiting

35:04certain brain areas that control

35:06propriception and it makes people sleepy

35:09and they fall asleep. So as crazy as

35:12this sounds,

35:13>> this really works.

35:14>> It really works. It really works. Now if

35:16you're if you drink four cups of coffee

35:18and you're ruminating over something,

35:20it's not going to override that. But if

35:22you wake up in the middle of the night,

35:24you go to the restroom, for instance,

35:25you I woke up, I go back, maybe it's

35:27noisy, someone made a noise. Close your

35:29eyes and with your eyes closed you're

35:31gonna move your eyes to doesn't matter

35:33to the left or right first you go one

35:35side then the other side maybe do it

35:37again if you want then counterclockwise

35:39clockwise then you kind of point your

35:41eyes toward your midline or your your

35:43nose and then you exhale and you forget

35:47body position many many people who I've

35:50taught this to write to me and say I

35:52can't believe it but I then wake up the

35:53next morning it's wild I did it on the

35:55plane ride here I was out also these

35:58circuits that we access in yoga nidra of

36:02self-directed relaxation or of turning

36:05off propriception, our knowledge of our

36:07body position. They are amendable to

36:11plasticity, which is simply to say that

36:12they get stronger in response to these

36:15behaviors over time. The plasticity of

36:18these behaviors is really critical. You

36:20get better at it. The same way that I'm

36:22sure you know, you sit down and you're

36:24really excited about something, you're

36:26in immediate focus. But I'm guessing at

36:28some point in your school career, your

36:29career career, you have something you're

36:32like, I don't want to do this. But you

36:33know how to get in gear. You think,

36:35okay, what do I have to do? Maybe you

36:36watch a YouTube video. Maybe you don't.

36:38You turn on some music. You tell

36:40yourself, what's wrong with me? Like,

36:41all right, let's get this. You call

36:43someone. Let's do it. And you're in.

36:44>> Yeah,

36:45>> you know how to ramp up, but do you know

36:47how to turn it off? Do you know how to

36:49ramp down? And you know, the best

36:51athletes know how to do this. That's a

36:54skill you learn. you and so this

36:5625-year-old person I would say great you

36:58are in the peak of the opportunity to

37:01still rewire your brain in the right

37:02ways that includes get after it culture

37:06but how are you going to turn off your

37:08brain to restore reset dump the data

37:12that's not significant from the day

37:13before the the conflict you had some the

37:16thing you saw online is an attempt to

37:18steal your focus and energy and sleep

37:20>> when I go on X I'm literally it's

37:23warfare I'm I'm a benevolent player

37:26there, but you're not going to take my

37:28energy. I think about this. You're I

37:30have I have a shield up. You're not

37:31going to take my Somebody says something

37:33about me. You're I know what they're

37:35trying to do. They're losing energy by

37:37But I'm not going to let them take It's

37:39It's a video game. And you win by taking

37:43as many of those attentional resources

37:45and putting them into your health, your

37:48well-being. This includes how you treat

37:50other people. You think you're a high,

37:52can you be a like a high focus driven

37:56person and switch it off?

37:58>> That's a mental, career, financial,

38:02whatever you want to call it, physical

38:04athlete. That that's the that's the

38:07dangerous person. I don't worry about

38:09the person who can just get after it and

38:10drink 12 cups of coffee, pop an

38:12Adderall, and and just outwork

38:15everybody. So the next morning they're

38:16they're outworking everybody. Okay, see

38:19you on Thursday. I'm going to I'm going

38:21to blast past you. And I actually

38:22learned this when I was first starting

38:24off in neuroscience. I would go to

38:25meetings. I never liked drinking

38:27alcohol. First of all, I don't like the

38:29way people act when they drink alcohol.

38:31I never felt like I There might have

38:32been a few weddings or parties in my my

38:34life where like I'm with friends I

38:35really know and we have a few drinks and

38:37like there's that bonding feeling. It

38:38was great. Let's be honest, it was

38:40great. But most of the time at

38:41scientific meetings, I just noticed

38:43people being sloppy and stupid, saying

38:45dumb things, getting themselves in

38:46trouble. Also, I was there to build my

38:49career. So I thought, well, maybe in 20

38:51years when I'm a tenure professor, I'll

38:53do that. But now I'm going to bed early

38:55on night one. And on night two, those

38:58guys who are really established, like

39:00they're kind of dragging. By day three,

39:02they're falling asleep and like they're

39:04with their mouth open and drooling in

39:06the in the meetings and a bunch of

39:07students do too. These were athletes

39:09that'd be like, "This is too easy. I'm

39:11still there front row taking notes,

39:13getting my workouts in, and on the last

39:16night I might have a good time."

39:18So, it's not that I don't have a good

39:19time, but I from day one, I I'm going to

39:23pass you, not you, but you get the idea.

39:26I'm going to pass up the next person by

39:28what I don't do as much as what I do.

39:31>> And we don't hear about this cuz it's a

39:33little bit hard to put all this into a

39:3590-cond clip on social media. So, a lot

39:37of get after itself. Take this peptide,

39:39take this stimulant. And listen, I love

39:41caffeine and I think there's a place for

39:43these tools, but it's much easier to get

39:45in gear. How do you do that day in day

39:47out consistently? Have a reset day. One

39:50day per week I don't exercise. I try and

39:53spend as much time in fresh air,

39:55sunshine, and relaxation as I can, but

39:57if I can't, I might just veg all day.

40:00>> Like do nothing half a day, watch a

40:03movie with my girlfriend, relax, just

40:05kick back, hang out, be I call it I I

40:07sort of joke it's it's our zero cortisol

40:09day. No such thing as a zero c. I still

40:10get the sunlight in the morning at that

40:12cortisol peak. You know, I didn't

40:13emphasize this enough before, but I'll

40:15just return to the if you have a high

40:16morning cortisol peak. Any stress that

40:19comes, you'll be able to deal with it.

40:21There's actually really good data on

40:22this. I I'm not here to plug my book,

40:24but I have this book, Protocols, which

40:25discusses this, that the return to

40:28baseline of of cortisol after a stressor

40:31is much faster if you had high morning

40:32cortisol. The worst situation is a

40:35what's called flattening of the morning

40:36of the cortisol curve across the day

40:38where it's not a big peak in the

40:39morning. It's kind of high midish

40:41baseline into the evening. Any stress

40:43that comes is riding on an higher

40:45baseline. Now it's carrying into the

40:47evening. It disrupt it's shown to

40:49disrupt all sorts of things. Blood

40:50glucose regulation, all the negative

40:52effects of cortisol, so-called chronic

40:54stress are really about afternoon and

40:56nighttime high cortisol. We're never

40:58told this. Also, if you're somebody who

41:00uses, for instance, ashwagandha to

41:02suppress cortisol, that should

41:04definitely be done in the final hours of

41:05the day, not in the morning. Small

41:07amounts in the early part of the day,

41:08fine. later in the day not so good. I

41:11don't recommend people take ashwagandha

41:13for long periods of time maybe for

41:15>> two for well

41:18it potently reduces cortisol you know by

41:20one study depending on the amount but

41:22600 milligrams you know twice you know

41:25or so um can reduce cortisol

41:28significantly by about 30%. You want

41:30high morning cortisol. So you want in

41:31the afternoon. I would say if you're

41:33going to reduce cortisol using

41:34ashwagandha at high doses, you want to

41:37limit that to about two weeks without

41:39taking and then take two weeks off. In

41:41moderate doses, you know, 300 up to 600

41:43milligrams is probably fine to take

41:45consistently, but in the second half of

41:47the day, um, some people take things to

41:49fall asleep. I I I think things like

41:51magnesium, theine, apagenine, which is

41:53chamomile tea, or things like

41:55ashwagandha, can help. But if you're not

41:57doing all the right behaviors, it's

42:00going to make a trivial impact. And I

42:02have been somewhat um you know bullish

42:05on experimenting with things like

42:06pinealon which is a peptide that can

42:08help increase REM sleep, but only every

42:10once in a while. I don't think it's good

42:12to rely on pharmarmacology to induce

42:14sleep too often. Also because you're

42:16shortcircuiting your ability to turn

42:18your mind on

42:19>> but I do like stimulants early in the

42:21day. In particular, caffeine. That's the

42:24my main stimulant. Alpha GPC and things

42:26of that sort. Energy drinks. Do you use

42:29nicotine? It seems like everyone uses

42:31nicotine now. Go. Good for you. You

42:32might be the one male under 40 I've met

42:35that doesn't take nicotine. You know,

42:36nicotine creates an alert but calm

42:38state, which is a very coveted state.

42:40It's hard to get that state, but it does

42:42increase blood pressure and it's very,

42:44very habit forming. I mean, you see

42:45these guys who they start with one 3

42:47milligram pouch and a six milligram

42:49pouch. Pretty soon it's five pouches a

42:51day. I love competing with those guys

42:54because in a few years they're going to

42:56have other issues.

42:57>> So like I'm my dad who's a scientist

43:01taught taught me this long ago. He said,

43:03"Listen, you got to learn to be a

43:05long-distance runner. This is a long

43:07game. [snorts] You want to win the long

43:09game. You want to win the short and the

43:10medium game, too, but you want to win

43:11the long game." And anyone can push hard

43:15in the short term, but they're just and

43:17you're going to see you're just going to

43:18see people start dropping out. So take

43:21care of those final hours of the day.

43:22Learn to turn it off. You can also

43:24practice yoga nidra with a 10, 20 or 30

43:27minute script. They're all there, you

43:28know, tons of them on YouTube. We have

43:30some on our web page. They're all zero

43:32cost. They're all it just depends on

43:34what you like. You could do the practice

43:35that in the day. If you don't get enough

43:37sleep, for instance, I highly recommend

43:40doing it first thing when you wake up in

43:41the morning to recover the sleep you

43:42didn't get. It's very potent at

43:45recovering mental and physical vigor. If

43:48you can't do it, then in the afternoon,

43:49I always have a little bit of a dip

43:50around 2 PM. If I didn't sleep enough

43:52the night before, I religiously do a a

43:56yoga nidra between 2 and 3 p.m., maybe

43:58even 10 minutes, ideally 20 or 30. Come

44:01out of that, hydrate, maybe a little bit

44:03of caffeine. Boom, you're right back.

44:05There's now data showing that pockets of

44:07the of your sleep of your brain go into

44:09deep sleep and maybe even REM sleep

44:11while you do Nidra. So, it's very

44:12restorative. There is no pill that will

44:15do this. There's no pill that will do

44:17this.

44:18>> And you don't do that at night

44:19>> yoga nidra

44:20>> before sleeping.

44:21>> I generally don't because I don't have

44:23trouble falling asleep. The challenge

44:24I've had over the years is falling

44:25asleep and then waking up at 2 or 3 or 4

44:27in the morning and not being able to go

44:29back to sleep. The eye movement trick

44:30plus doing nijra during the daytime has

44:33I have the ability to turn my mind off

44:36and go back to sleep. Well, the real key

44:38to becoming what you call dangerous and

44:39ultra resilient or antifragile, whatever

44:41language you want to use, is you learn

44:44to recognize what state you're in. This

44:46is this is the piece actually that sits

44:49even deeper than all the rest. You know,

44:52the oracle said it first, but know

44:53thyself. You have to know where you're

44:55at. Am I in a good state? Am I in a

44:57vulnerable state? If I go on social

44:59media now and I see something that

45:01upsets me, am I just going to go down

45:02that rabbit hole? We all like to think

45:05we can just blaze through life, but

45:07knowing where you're at is like checking

45:09the checking the engine, checking the

45:11machine, is like the steering aligned.

45:13And I don't sleep as much as I need to

45:16or I have stressors in my life. My

45:18steering is not aligned. So, I have to

45:19do other things to keep myself in check.

45:22>> Um, you don't.

45:22>> Yeah. So, it's about building in a

45:24resilience that includes flexibility.

45:26>> And I think people hear like they think

45:28rigidity, but it's not that. You know,

45:31I'm working really hard on having a turn

45:32off button.

45:34>> That's the hard one, right?

45:35>> It's really, really hard. And there was

45:38about like 3 years ago, there was a

45:40phase of my life where I was just like

45:43pushing through, pushing through really

45:45like

45:45>> Yeah, I get the sense you're that kind

45:46of guy.

45:47>> 3 hours, 4 hours sleep. And that's when

45:49I discovered NSDR yoga nitra from you.

45:51And they were like audios 10 minutes, 20

45:53minutes. And I was doing like three

45:55podcasts a day, like you know, just 3

45:57three hours. And then what I started

46:00doing, my team started noticing like in

46:02middle of one guest would leave and then

46:05I would have like a 30 minute break

46:07before the next guest comes right and I

46:09would put in the NSDR audio by you

46:12>> and I would just lay down and I would

46:14fall asleep like like a baby and they

46:17were like where did Raj go? Awesome.

46:20>> Like where is he? And I'm like under the

46:22table sleeping and but those 10 minutes

46:2615 minutes gave me so much energy which

46:29probably even a coffee didn't give me

46:32>> right

46:32>> that was like so good like those 10 20

46:35minutes now

46:35>> your mind needs to turn off you need to

46:37go into this some people call default

46:39mode network which is associate people

46:41get confused because the the default

46:42mode network is associated with

46:44depression if it's too high but you need

46:46to go into idle you can't just push this

46:48engine that is your brain and nervous

46:50system all the time. I mean, you can do

46:52it. The problem is you can do it for a

46:53while, but what I love about what you

46:55just described is, and this is another

46:57piece, so I'd say know thyself.

47:00Learn how to turn your mind off, meaning

47:03learn how to turn off thinking and

47:05planning. I'm not saying turn thoughts

47:07off. You can still learn how to go into

47:08pure sensation and relax. Boost your

47:11morning cortisol, keep it low at night,

47:13which allow your melatonin to be high.

47:15So, these are we're sort of building out

47:16a framework here.

47:18And then the other one is take yourself

47:21seriously.

47:22And taking yourself seriously is both

47:25hitting the gas pedal and knowing how to

47:27do that and knowing how to come off the

47:29gas pedal so that you can come back and

47:30do it again. You gave a really great

47:32example. What I heard, what I thought as

47:34you told me that story is awesome.

47:37You're taking yourself seriously. You're

47:39you're the equivalent of a professional

47:41athlete or somebody who's studying for

47:43their boards for neurosurgery for

47:45medical school, whatever. somebody's

47:48doing

47:5015 years old, 20 years old, 25 years

47:52old. Take yourself seriously. Now,

47:54people hear that and they think, uh,

47:56more rigidity, no fun, no laughter. No,

47:59laughter is great. Having a great time

48:01with your team is great, but the people

48:03who become leaders, the people who win

48:05in their fields, the people that do it

48:07consistently over time and enjoy the

48:09process and have healthy lives

48:11internally and externally,

48:13they know how to switch it off and they

48:17take themselves seriously. And you know

48:19it was um I think it probably comes from

48:22my dad's side you know that I I would go

48:25to these scientific meetings and I was

48:27like how could these people be like so

48:30serious about their careers but then

48:32they sort of like are like partying

48:33through the meeting and I realized oh

48:35many of them are actually just really

48:38brilliant so they can do this. None of

48:40those people are around anymore. They're

48:42not in the field anymore. like natural

48:45proclivities and and genetic gifts,

48:47they'll carry you pretty far. But the

48:49people with genetic gifts and natural

48:51proclivities and circumstantial gifts

48:53[snorts] that take themselves really

48:55seriously, they we know they they excel.

48:59Okay, most of us have some opportunities

49:03and advantages afforded to us. Some

49:05people have none. The only way for all

49:08these people, all three categories of

49:10people to excel in the long term is you

49:12have to take yourself seriously. And

49:14people will hear this and they'll think

49:16uh like Huberman, he's just like take

49:18it. Yeah, take it. You've been gifted

49:20this life, right? It doesn't mean you

49:22don't smile, smile, experience joy, take

49:25a day and just completely relax. You you

49:27want to be present to people. But if you

49:29don't take these things seriously, what

49:30ends up happening is you default to the

49:34mean, the dominant culture that you're

49:36surrounded with. So if you're around

49:39people that like to work hard, play

49:41hard, okay, cool. But pretty soon you're

49:43playing as hard as you're working and

49:45that doesn't look so good over time.

49:47Okay? Or you're around people that have

49:49given up or they're getting depressed

49:50and now you're not the person that can

49:52be there to really support them. You're

49:54one of them.

49:56So, nobody is made of steel, right?

50:00We're not robots. But take yourself

50:02seriously. Take your life seriously. And

50:04I know your listeners do that. But I

50:06think that perhaps they've been taught

50:09or they've they've convinced themselves

50:10that to take oneself seriously is to

50:12never come off the gas pedal.

50:15>> You know, Formula 1 driver knows like

50:17that it's not just pit stops. The car

50:19needs care. It needs love. It needs

50:21rest. But when you rest and how you rest

50:24is absolutely key. And the other piece

50:26of it is, you know, that becomes tricky

50:29is, you know, which people belong in

50:31your life, which people don't. And

50:33that's a tough one because it starts to

50:34sound rigid. You know, when I hear about

50:36people's like, I eliminate all toxicity

50:38from my life. There's no such thing.

50:39Toxicity comes through the phone.

50:41There's no such thing. They're going to

50:42be people who have challenges and

50:43they're not handling them well. Are you

50:45going to be in a position where you can

50:46help lead them and guide them and uh and

50:49be the calm in their storm so that they

50:52can hopefully if you need it be the calm

50:54in your storm. That's how it works. So I

50:58love that you do nidra in between. And

51:00if listen if one day you decide you know

51:03every once in a while you just scroll

51:04Instagram instead cool if you reset.

51:06[snorts] What you don't want to do is

51:08scroll Instagram thinking I should be

51:09doing yoga nidra or I should be doing

51:10the other thing. When our mind is split

51:12between two places, that's the most

51:15taxing thing. When we're trying to

51:17focus, but we can't. When we're trying

51:19to sleep, but we can't. The mind thrives

51:22on kind of unitary states, but those are

51:26hard to get into. We need to train

51:27ourselves to get into them. And sadly,

51:30the mind defaults to unitary states like

51:33anger and frustration very easily. And

51:36most of the algorithmic stuff that not

51:39all of it but a lot of it is designed to

51:41get you into those states very quickly

51:42so you're not doing anything else.

51:44>> Yeah.

51:44>> So yeah,

51:46>> you know this used to be one of the

51:48biggest lies that I used to believe in

51:49that you don't need an off button. And

51:51I've I've been this hustle hustle hustle

51:54work work be obsessed. I' I've been like

51:56a kind of a poster boy for a lot of my

51:59life just like that in my family and

52:01friends and I've been there and I've

52:03realized in last couple of years like

52:06not not even couple of like very

52:08recently that you need to take a break

52:10you need to actually have an off button

52:12and now I'm very consciously practicing

52:14that trying to take an off right

52:17>> what has been what do you think like

52:19what's the biggest lie you know which is

52:23which we hear in the world about mental

52:26toughness or about elite performance.

52:28>> Yeah, great question. I think put

52:29simply, it's that the goal is to just

52:31build a bigger and bigger capacity.

52:34>> What we don't acknowledge and people

52:36need to understand is that the better

52:39you get at something, this is a it's a

52:41weird one. The better you get at

52:42something,

52:44the more of an inroad into your energy

52:47it creates. Now, this is weird, right?

52:49Because when you're first learning

52:50something, it takes a lot of energy.

52:52Then you get

52:53>> you get fluid with it. You can sit down

52:55and podcast. I can sit down and podcast

52:57under most any conditions, right? As

52:59long as there's enough oxygen in the

53:00room. And maybe even if there's not, you

53:02and I can have a great podcast. We just

53:04know how to do it. But to really drop

53:06into your craft and I don't care if it's

53:09podcasting or finance or sport or

53:11medicine,

53:13it creates an inroad into your energy

53:16and it is greater than when you're not

53:20very skilled at something because you're

53:21you're engaging more and more and more

53:23focus. So I think there's two things.

53:25The early part of any career, you have

53:28to find your edge. Okay, so this runs a

53:30little bit countercurrent to everything

53:31I've said, but you're trying to figure

53:32out, yeah, how how little sleep can I

53:35exist on? Okay, I break at two nights no

53:38sleep. Okay, I break. I can do one

53:40night. In fact, I did it last week.

53:4230-hour work stretch with my business

53:43partner. Haven't done that in a long

53:45time. We did it. It hurt. We did it. We

53:49carried each other. I was like, I could

53:50tell when my mind was getting wobbly. He

53:52would step in. We would do things. And

53:53we did it. We had to do it. Feels good.

53:55I don't really want to do that again for

53:57a long while. Um but I built that

53:59capacity over many years. Okay, you

54:01build that capacity by finding your

54:03edge. Now you don't want to die or

54:05injure yourself or become mentally sick

54:08but you get to that edge and then you

54:10stay away from that edge and then so I

54:13would say in the first year or two of

54:14doing something go for it. Just go all

54:17in.

54:19Reset only

54:21as needed to just keep coming back. Keep

54:23coming back. Keep coming back. But at

54:25some point you're going to hit a wall.

54:26You want that wall to be a non-lethal

54:28wall. Okay, you want that wall to be I'm

54:30exhausted. I need a week off. I can't

54:34afford a week off. Okay, I hit my wall.

54:36That's my limit. What can I do every day

54:38at this point consistently over time and

54:40work around that average? It's going to

54:42balance around that average plus or

54:43minus 2 hours or so. So, for me, I like

54:46you, I have a a pretty large capacity.

54:49If I do the right things in between, on

54:51the way here, I cleared my mind. On the

54:53flight in, I slept. I know how to clear

54:55my mind and reset, but I can probably do

54:59anywhere from

55:01depends on the work. Um, anywhere from

55:065 to 10 hours of real work per day, real

55:09work. Okay, that's not including the

55:11lunch break. It's not including the

55:12walk. So, like

55:14>> five is doable.

55:16>> 6 to 7 is doable. Hurts a bit more. 10

55:19hurts. The next day, I'm not doing 10.

55:22I'm borrowing from the next day where I

55:24can only do five, right? Okay. And you

55:26know this, but I had to find that. I had

55:28to establish that you build that up the

55:30same way you build up strength. You

55:32know, there's a beautiful parallel to

55:33resistance training. Everyone knows,

55:35okay, you you do your sets and reps, you

55:37take the reps to failure or close to

55:38failure, you allow some period of time,

55:40the muscle gets stronger, you come back.

55:42But an old principle from resistance

55:45training that's still very true is as

55:47you get better at it, you know how to

55:49really cramp the muscle hard. you know

55:51how to really push. You know when the

55:53when the harder reps are coming, you get

55:55better at inducing the stimulus, the

55:58stress stimulus that causes the the

56:00adaptation of growth and and strength

56:02increase.

56:04You need fewer sets after resistance

56:07training for 10, 15 years. People say,

56:08"Oh, no, no, you need to do more." No,

56:10you need to pour more into fewer sets.

56:13You have the ability to do that. Now,

56:15when somebody first starts resistance

56:16training, they can't generate that kind

56:18of focused intensity. So the more

56:20focused intensity you can bring to

56:21something, the more volume and focused

56:23intensity, the more rest you need to

56:25offset that. So what ends up happening

56:26is at your stage when you're, you know,

56:28I would say like the first year 1, two,

56:31and three, I think you can go on all gas

56:33pedal in anything. Just all gas pedal.

56:36Work, work, work, learn, learn, learn,

56:37learn, learn. Do it. Don't die. The goal

56:40is just don't die, but just go all in.

56:42Okay? Then in years four, five or so,

56:46you're learning how to create some

56:47balance and be more effective. You're

56:49trying to stay out of chronic illness.

56:51You're trying to stay out of autoimmune

56:53conditions. You're you know, this is

56:54typically if people don't do this is

56:56when their hair starts falling out. They

56:57start getting skin issues. The nervous

56:59system is

57:00>> is under stress. It's just you're that

57:02nighttime cortisol is too high. If we

57:04really want to break it down, that's

57:05what's happening. The rhythm is off. The

57:07nighttime cortisol is too high. you're

57:08not resetting the nervous system and

57:10therefore the endocrine system and

57:11therefore all the immune system and so

57:13on. And some people break at that point.

57:17>> Um, you know, I do think that there's

57:18variability. People who are very driven,

57:21who are kind of highwired. I'm of that

57:23sort. Um, you might be of that sort.

57:26They tend to have a certain physical

57:27stature. Um, they're kind of go go go.

57:29They're kind of electric and they know

57:31that electric ant feels really good,

57:32right? They tend to veer more towards

57:34towards autoimmune conditions because

57:36they can push push push push push and

57:38the the cortisol just keeps coming and

57:40they can keep going. Some people just go

57:42into like a chronic fatigue. Boom.

57:44[clears throat] They just crash. They

57:46just crash. My problem your problem is

57:48we don't crash. We keep going but we're

57:51our baseline is dropping.

57:53>> So the key is around years I would say

57:55four, five, six, you're learning to

57:57bring the balance in. Now by years 6 7

58:01there's some overlap there obviously 6 7

58:038 9 10 you're a pro. Now you're a pro.

58:08You know when you're stressed. You know

58:09when you're feeling extra good. You know

58:11when you need to nidra. You know when

58:13you need to get off your phone and go do

58:14this thing and you know what to go do.

58:16So it doesn't mean you need 10 years to

58:19get good at something. You can get real

58:21far real fast in three years. But you

58:23can't keep that pace up.

58:25>> You have to learn to dynamically

58:27regulate it. And the unit of of

58:29analysis, like the the unit of time to

58:31focus on is the day. What can I do

58:34today? This is another big part of

58:35shutting your brain off. I'm not

58:37thinking about tomorrow as its own

58:40thing. I know it's coming. I know I've

58:43got stuff to do, but what can I do today

58:46to get the most done, but know that I'm

58:48coming back tomorrow and I got to do it

58:50again. I want to do it again. So, years

58:521, 2, and three, go for it. years four,

58:56five, six, learn to dynamically regulate

58:58it. Beyond that, you're a pro

59:02>> and now you you really can start to

59:04integrate the principles of what you're

59:06and you'll and that's when you also can

59:07start guiding your team better. Hey,

59:09listen, that's a left column issue.

59:13>> Clip it.

59:14>> You know, here go do yoga. I don't want

59:17to do yoga like you're you're inhaling

59:20too much oxygen for this problem. Go

59:22turn it off. You know, I have a lock box

59:25for my phone that I still sometimes use,

59:26but I don't need it quite as much these

59:28days. But I needed that at some point

59:30because there was just too much

59:30incoming. And this is what you're really

59:34becoming a mental athlete, right? And

59:36then in terms of physical well-being, I

59:38do think that there's certain physical

59:39activities that can help reset the

59:41nervous system. People are different,

59:44but for me, once a week I need to go on

59:46a long jog or run or cycle or swim. So,

59:49it's an hour slow, really slow. I do

59:52that typically on Sundays. I like to do

59:53it out ofdoors. I might do it socially

59:56uh with someone else or other people,

59:58but it's a it's an endurance thing. I'll

1:00:01listen to podcasts or books and I'll

1:00:03just like, go, this last Sunday I just

1:00:04went for a slow jog, you know, out and

1:00:07back 45 minutes. The whole work of the

1:00:10thing is to not go any faster and just

1:00:13do it. That takes me into the week. I

1:00:16start my week with a hard leg workout.

1:00:17That's how I like to do it, but it's

1:00:19brief. It's only about an hour. Two a

1:00:22couple warm-up sets and a couple hard

1:00:24work sets for each muscle group. So that

1:00:27means some belt squats or some leg

1:00:29presses or some, you know, and some

1:00:30hamstring curls and taken to failure.

1:00:32Two or three sets. This is important.

1:00:34You want to keep the body strong,

1:00:35especially the lower body. You get that

1:00:37out of the way early in the week. But I

1:00:38don't push to exhaustion because it's

1:00:40Monday and I have a long week ahead.

1:00:42Next day, rest. I didn't do any exercise

1:00:45today. I try and walk in the morning. I

1:00:47get my sunlight. I do these things, but

1:00:49take that day off after the leg day. A

1:00:52day later, depending on how I feel, I

1:00:55might do some resistance training again,

1:00:57but typically I will do some sort of

1:01:00easier cardio, only about 30 minutes,

1:01:02just keep the cardiovascular system

1:01:04going, blood flow to the brain. These

1:01:05things really help improve brain

1:01:07function, blood flow, uh, improve sleep

1:01:09and so on, but nothing excessive. The

1:01:12next day, I'll do some sort of pushing

1:01:13and pulling. So, some pressing movements

1:01:16for the chest, some pressing movements

1:01:17overhead, some chin-up type movement,

1:01:19and some rowing type movement, some

1:01:21abdominals. So, it's just kind of like

1:01:22general torso stuff. Same principle, a

1:01:25couple warm-up sets, couple hard work

1:01:27sets to failure of each exercise. You're

1:01:29done in an hour. And then the next day,

1:01:31I do some sort of cardio, very brief, to

1:01:35get my heart rate way, way up. V2 max

1:01:37type training, just once a week. Get on

1:01:39the aerodine bike, warm up for a minute,

1:01:41and then pedal hard hard for 20, 30

1:01:43seconds. Rest 20 seconds, and then

1:01:45repeat hard, hard, hard, um, something

1:01:48like that for six rounds. By the end,

1:01:50your heart rate is maxed out. You feel

1:01:52like you want to die, but then the rest

1:01:54of the day is pretty easy.

1:01:55>> This rhythm works very well because

1:01:58you'll get strong, you'll have

1:02:01endurance, you'll have the ability to

1:02:03sprint and go fast. You're not going to

1:02:05be the fastest or the or the best

1:02:07runner. You're not going to be the

1:02:08strongest, but you're going to have

1:02:09all-around fitness. Your posture will be

1:02:11good. I'm 50 years old. I've been

1:02:13training this way for 35 years, and I

1:02:15can tell you, uh, anyone can do this.

1:02:18Male, female, whatever age or hormone

1:02:20status, you can do this. But you need to

1:02:23find your walls. You need to find your

1:02:25limits. And then you need to decide if

1:02:27if you're going to push past them. And

1:02:28and I think for me the the real joy is

1:02:31in trying to share tools with people

1:02:34like the morning cortisol stuff, the low

1:02:35nighttime cortisol stuff, and the many

1:02:37other protocols we cover in a so that

1:02:39they can set themselves up to be in the

1:02:41best position to succeed over time. Cuz

1:02:44if you don't get that right, you're not

1:02:45going to succeed over time.

1:02:47>> You know, there are many things you can

1:02:49take to give you energy. There are many

1:02:51books you can read for inspiration. I

1:02:54don't even think about inspiration

1:02:55anymore. what

1:02:57>> I just don't I I think um I try and look

1:03:00for themes in the world where I like to

1:03:05interact with people

1:03:07like you, like my friend Eddie that I

1:03:09saw do neurosurgery this morning who are

1:03:11like really in their element cuz there's

1:03:13a vibe that comes from that and and over

1:03:15time you just find that you're just

1:03:17surrounded by people like that.

1:03:18>> Agreed.

1:03:20>> Right. you just it's like it's like a

1:03:21it's like a bunch of tributaries come

1:03:22together and then like

1:03:24>> I'll encounter people during the day

1:03:26that are struggling and they'll say,

1:03:27"Hey, do you have any advice?" And of

1:03:29course, I'll stop and give them my time.

1:03:31But as you continue to do well and and

1:03:34take care of yourself, you just notice

1:03:36your whole world is made up of people

1:03:38that are like really positive and then

1:03:40you don't have to worry so much about

1:03:41all the like the the downer stuff. It's

1:03:44also important to keep in mind that when

1:03:45you go online, you're in the you're in

1:03:47the open waters of of everything from

1:03:51very healthy to really just like

1:03:53mentally ill. Like we have to remember

1:03:55that on the internet a lot of people are

1:03:58not well and they're stressed and

1:03:59they're tired and they're um and you can

1:04:03send them love, but do not let any of

1:04:06that erode your well-being. You cannot I

1:04:08mean, you're a public figure. Uh I I

1:04:11became a public figure at 45 and I'm 50

1:04:13now. Um I like what do you do? I mean

1:04:17that's it that takes a lot of strength

1:04:18of mind in order to not because I'm sure

1:04:20people say many many kind things but

1:04:22occasionally people try and puncture

1:04:24your balloon by just being unkind

1:04:26because they're they're

1:04:29>> they're kind of semi-broken people.

1:04:31>> So how do you deal with that? Like what

1:04:33is your what is your tool?

1:04:34>> I don't it doesn't affect me. I don't

1:04:36know why. Like it just

1:04:37>> Oh yeah. Healthy upbringing. Your

1:04:39parents must have done something well.

1:04:41>> I absolutely thank them. Yes.

1:04:43>> For sure. It it doesn't affect me at

1:04:45all.

1:04:45>> Uhhuh.

1:04:46>> Like things and I have a similar thing

1:04:49which

1:04:50>> and we're not just saying that for the

1:04:51cameras. It really does.

1:04:52>> Like you can ask my team or like they

1:04:54will tell you and I can tell you

1:04:55everything.

1:04:56>> I mean it's my show. I can cut the wrong

1:04:57stuff as to be honest with you.

1:04:59>> No, but I really I think it's it's

1:05:00interesting that um because I think a

1:05:02lot of public figures and non-public

1:05:04figures they struggle with that. Like I

1:05:06don't I've never

1:05:09>> I've never I don't doubt myself at all.

1:05:12>> Like just

1:05:12>> great.

1:05:13>> Just say what you want to.

1:05:14>> Yeah.

1:05:15>> I I know what I'm

1:05:17>> what I'm going to do. I see every hate

1:05:19or every negative comment that I get.

1:05:22>> I see it either it's a constructive

1:05:24feedback which I probably have missed

1:05:26and it's a blind spot and I see it as

1:05:28>> perhaps perhaps not always. Yeah. No,

1:05:30not like like some of them I see it as a

1:05:32constructive feedback that oh maybe I

1:05:34missed this

1:05:35>> and some I'm like

1:05:37>> I don't care. That's your opinion. Like

1:05:39it doesn't even affect me. I just laugh

1:05:40it off.

1:05:41>> Yeah. I mean I think it's

1:05:44>> I mean it's interesting because I think

1:05:45it all starts with knowing that you're a

1:05:47fun that one talking about themselves is

1:05:50is a fundamentally good person. You

1:05:52know, I think good parenting starts with

1:05:55um children feeling loved and that they

1:05:57are, you know, born into and are of

1:06:00goodness, right? Because I think that

1:06:02people who don't feel that way um are

1:06:05very susceptible to to criticism, right?

1:06:08Because it gets at this question like,

1:06:09"Am I bad? Am I this?" Like, it gets to

1:06:11those things. If you if you know that

1:06:12fundamentally you have a you have a good

1:06:14heart, you you're human. You make

1:06:16mistakes, but you have a good heart,

1:06:18you're 90% of the way there, right? So

1:06:21keep that keeping that in mind. And then

1:06:23there's this peculiarity of of human

1:06:25nature that humans like I mean think

1:06:27about what it takes just think for a

1:06:29second of what it takes to go on the

1:06:32internet and take the time to send a or

1:06:36post a cruel comment about somebody.

1:06:38Just think of like how broken somebody

1:06:40has to be inside. And they're probably

1:06:42hearing this and thinking no you're the

1:06:44one that's you know but no like just

1:06:46think about that. And I I don't say this

1:06:48with any smuggness or pleasure. It's

1:06:50like, wow. Like, I wouldn't in a million

1:06:53years think to do that for amusement,

1:06:57for pleasure, for like it's net negative

1:07:00for everybody. You're down

1:07:02>> wired that way.

1:07:03>> What's that?

1:07:04>> You're not wired that way.

1:07:06>> I don't get it. I really don't get it.

1:07:07And and so if people are feeling um

1:07:11aggravated by content they see online

1:07:14about themselves or others, they should

1:07:16really keep in mind what it takes to um

1:07:19to to kind of like how how broken and

1:07:24sad somebody must be inside in order to

1:07:26do that. So I if I see something I like,

1:07:27I try and I send them love.

1:07:29>> I just try and send them love. Good

1:07:31luck. Good, you know, love like you

1:07:34know, but it's um it's great that you

1:07:35don't you don't suffer from that. Like I

1:07:37I think we don't talk about it often but

1:07:40my parents and my brother like my family

1:07:42in particular they did an incredible

1:07:45job. I grew up in a joint family

1:07:48>> and one thing which they gave what is

1:07:50joined family?

1:07:51>> Join it's like we were 10 people in one

1:07:53house.

1:07:54>> Okay.

1:07:54>> So join family is when you

1:07:56>> uh like your mom and dad, you your

1:07:58brother, my uncle, aunt, my grandma,

1:08:01grandfather, everybody lived in one

1:08:02house.

1:08:02>> Oh, how cool. Yeah.

1:08:04>> Yeah. We don't typically have that here.

1:08:05That's awesome.

1:08:06>> So we call it joint family and nuclear

1:08:08family. Nuclear is when the way you guys

1:08:10live here like mom, dad, kids.

1:08:12>> Yeah. Well, that's the best of

1:08:14circumstances. Typically nowadays

1:08:16there's I mean divorce is rampant here,

1:08:18right? My parents divorced. They both

1:08:20got remarried. I was very young. It was

1:08:22very disruptive. Very disruptive to my

1:08:24whole psychology. But um but it worked

1:08:26out and I loved them all and you know

1:08:28but we certainly didn't all live under

1:08:29one roof. So that's cool. So you would

1:08:32wake up in the morning, how many people

1:08:33would you see in your kitchen? 10 people

1:08:36just like [laughter]

1:08:36>> amazing

1:08:37>> and every weekend I would have like

1:08:40cousins over so we would be like 30

1:08:42people in one house.

1:08:44>> So I've I've born and brought up in that

1:08:46and I think one incredible thing it's

1:08:49like

1:08:51a they did a great job because they they

1:08:54gave me so much self-belief which I'm

1:08:57just grateful. I don't know why they did

1:08:58that and how they they did that but they

1:09:00did that very beautifully. Even today my

1:09:03brother, my cousins, my everybody just

1:09:05believes so much. So that's an

1:09:07incredible thing. The other is also when

1:09:09you're born with so many people all

1:09:12around. You get immune to criticism

1:09:16>> because you're since childhood, you've

1:09:18been constantly compared [laughter]

1:09:21>> like you're compared to your cousin,

1:09:22you're compared to your brother, you're

1:09:24compared to the five people in family

1:09:26>> and you've been like you've been shout

1:09:28at, you've been abused on like just

1:09:30verbally about certain things. So, you

1:09:33get so immune that by the time you're an

1:09:35adult, the outside world doesn't affect

1:09:37you at all.

1:09:38>> That's so interesting. Um,

1:09:40>> like it make you

1:09:41>> I didn't know this existed, by the way.

1:09:42And I think most Americans won't know

1:09:44this this uh joint family joint family

1:09:47structure. But I have to say, you know,

1:09:49early on in life, I um I joined some

1:09:52sports and some other things where I was

1:09:53in a just a big pack of young guys.

1:09:56>> And you take a lot of we call it here

1:09:59ribbing, right? You take a lot of like

1:10:00joking and hazing and I mean people are

1:10:03rough on each other verbally and you

1:10:04learn that it's an expression of love.

1:10:06>> Yeah.

1:10:07>> Sometimes it's an expression of real

1:10:08criticism but it makes you resilient.

1:10:11And when I went into science listen in

1:10:13science you are constantly being told

1:10:15that's not good enough change the paper.

1:10:17That's not good enough for I mean it's

1:10:18non-stop no not good enough. Finally

1:10:22okay do it again. So I've never

1:10:26um I assume crit criticism is part of

1:10:30the the process. So similarly so

1:10:32different it came from my friendship in

1:10:34my my work community but it was constant

1:10:37barrage of critique critique critique

1:10:40critique including some like you make

1:10:42some embarrassing mistakes and you have

1:10:43to live with that shame and recover from

1:10:45it and know that you're still loved or

1:10:47that you love yourself. So there are

1:10:48some parallels but I think the fact that

1:10:50you had that at home from such a young

1:10:53age and now when you go home how like

1:10:56when you visit is it it's a huge group.

1:10:58>> Oh yeah that's beautiful.

1:11:00>> Now they're very proud. Of course they

1:11:02don't criticize me anymore but

1:11:03>> but you're you're now you're becoming a

1:11:05leader of the family, right? An example.

1:11:08>> Yeah.

1:11:09>> Yeah.

1:11:09>> Yeah.

1:11:09>> Yeah.

1:11:10>> And you're and you're fine with that

1:11:11pressure. It sound I I get the sense

1:11:13that you feel calm in that pressure.

1:11:16>> That's great.

1:11:16>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm okay with that. Yeah,

1:11:18it's wonderful. No, I think it's

1:11:19wonderful. I'm learning from you. I

1:11:20think I I don't think you see that

1:11:23mindset in uh American households that

1:11:26much.

1:11:26>> But you know, in like

1:11:29my current state of reality has not

1:11:31changed their attitude towards me at

1:11:33all.

1:11:34>> Mhm.

1:11:35>> Like does it make sense?

1:11:36>> That helps. Yeah. Keeps you humble.

1:11:38>> They just

1:11:39>> they're the same people and they would

1:11:41>> put me to ground and they would leave no

1:11:44opportunity to thrash me whenever they

1:11:45get

1:11:46>> Well, that's that's good, too. Yeah. And

1:11:47it's a way of love.

1:11:48>> Yeah, absolutely. No, I think that's

1:11:50very very important. I mean, I am

1:11:53relieved to hear it because I I worry

1:11:56about people that become very successful

1:11:58very young. You know, I was reasonably

1:12:01well I was a very aspiring kid. Then I

1:12:03had some rough years. Then I would been

1:12:05you know the scientific the I my

1:12:07scientific career went very well. I had

1:12:08to work very very hard but it went very

1:12:10very well. Um but I was surrounded you

1:12:12know at Stanford School of Medicine. and

1:12:14you look to your left, you look to your

1:12:15right, everybody's doing awesome stuff.

1:12:19And some of them are doing I mean, I've

1:12:20got colleagues that will win Nobel

1:12:22prizes, have won Nobel prizes. That that

1:12:24wasn't me. I knew that like I it was a

1:12:27good scientist. I think I am a good

1:12:29scientist, but I also know knew my

1:12:31level, my place. Um I do feel I deserved

1:12:34and deserve to be there. But when you're

1:12:36surrounded by people that are like the

1:12:38Michael Jordans of their field, the

1:12:39LeBrons of their of you go like Eddie

1:12:42Chang, my I mean like he's on a whole

1:12:44other level, a whole other level. And

1:12:47he'll be like no no like yes, completely

1:12:50different as a clinician, as a

1:12:52scientist. So it raises you your

1:12:55standard is very high. But I think that

1:12:57one thing that's great is that I became

1:13:00public facing at a time when I was 45

1:13:02years old. So my personality and my, you

1:13:05know, for better or worse, was already

1:13:06crystallized. I was not going to change

1:13:08that much. Um,

1:13:10but my friends still treat me the same.

1:13:12And I think that the the encouragement I

1:13:16heard a good one. This was actually uh I

1:13:18think it was Jaco Willing that said

1:13:20this. He said, um, you know, your really

1:13:22good friends will, and this is very like

1:13:25maleoriented,

1:13:28really good male friends, they'll give

1:13:30you the hardest time to your face, but

1:13:32they will never talk badly about you

1:13:33behind your back.

1:13:34>> Bang on.

1:13:35>> Yeah. So, that's like that's the

1:13:37critical test. Like, they should be able

1:13:38to say anything and they will give you a

1:13:40really hard time to your face, but if

1:13:42you're out of the room, they're not

1:13:44getting into any kind of gossipy stuff

1:13:45about you when you're out of the room

1:13:47and you about them. That's kind of like,

1:13:49you know, 30% of like how to be a dude.

1:13:53[laughter] Know that rule. Know that

1:13:55rule. Take and give some some flak, you

1:13:58know, when when your friend is in the

1:14:00room, when you're in the room together,

1:14:01but when you're out of the room, like

1:14:02there's just no there's no bad talking

1:14:04when people are out of the room.

1:14:05>> I think that's it's like a family of

1:14:07sorts. So anyway, I I appreciate you

1:14:09sharing a bit because um I get a sense

1:14:11of that your confidence is is very is

1:14:14very real. Um, and that doesn't arrive

1:14:18on accident. So, yeah.

1:14:19>> You said it worries you when somebody

1:14:21young gets super successful. Yeah.

1:14:23>> Why?

1:14:24>> What worries you the most?

1:14:26>> I mean,

1:14:27>> what have you seen personally?

1:14:28>> Oh my goodness. So, I've known people

1:14:31who got very popular, famous,

1:14:35and rich from athletics who really

1:14:39soared in their business pursuits.

1:14:41everything from tech to people in the

1:14:44you know world of you know culinary and

1:14:47things like that and [snorts] so many

1:14:50crash and burn. I mean attention is a

1:14:52drug if [snorts] it's misused.

1:14:56Attention recycled into creative pursuit

1:15:00into intellectual pursuit and then

1:15:02giving back more. That's a beautiful

1:15:03thing. But you look at all these

1:15:05performing artists, you know, musicians

1:15:06and so forth that like they [snorts]

1:15:09they implode. Um, and I think it's

1:15:12because

1:15:14um, like empmphetamines, like opioids,

1:15:17um, but especially like empmphetamines

1:15:19that you know the the some people if

1:15:22they don't have that solid family

1:15:24grounding, that solid internal structure

1:15:26and psychology,

1:15:28hopefully they have the family too, but

1:15:29if they don't have that, they experience

1:15:32these peaks of attention and money where

1:15:34they're the focus. Most people don't go

1:15:36through life where like they're the

1:15:37focus and then they experience this

1:15:40traumatic dip afterwards and they need

1:15:41to get back and if they can't they start

1:15:44using substances or they start spending

1:15:46it money in ways that they think that's

1:15:48going to be the the um the quote unquote

1:15:52salvation you know I mean I think

1:15:54there's a reason why at least in the

1:15:55United States so many um famous people

1:15:58eventually turn to some notion of God

1:16:00right is because they realize that

1:16:02that's a a loving relationship that will

1:16:05never leave them if they don't leave it.

1:16:08And and and in principle, it never

1:16:09leaves them anyway. Because

1:16:12when people realize, oh, you know,

1:16:15people love them only because of the

1:16:17position they're in. That's that's a

1:16:19scary thing. There are certain things

1:16:20that are immune to this. But if you

1:16:22think about it, like um there's certain

1:16:24roles that like they're only when

1:16:26they're in when somebody's in the role,

1:16:29everyone [snorts] like treats them a

1:16:30certain way and does something the

1:16:31moment they're out like that like like

1:16:33no one cares about the the ex president,

1:16:35right? They kind of do, but they're no

1:16:38longer the person other people treat.

1:16:40Well, now it's complicated because it's

1:16:41so politically divided, but you get the

1:16:43idea. But I think we've come up with

1:16:45something today that I didn't intend to

1:16:47sort of arrive at, but I do strongly

1:16:48believe. Yours 1, two, and three. Gas

1:16:51pedal.

1:16:53>> Gas pedal. Just do it. Don't damage your

1:16:55health to the extreme. Like don't do any

1:16:57crazy dang anything crazy. Don't die,

1:17:00but like just gas pedal.

1:17:03Four, five, six. Learn to dynamically

1:17:05regulate it. 7 8 9 and forward. All

1:17:08right. Now you're Now the good stuff.

1:17:11Now you can really just fine-tune and

1:17:14really and savor it, you know, like

1:17:16savor it, like really sit back every

1:17:18once in a while and be like, you know,

1:17:20like in your case, you can be like, man,

1:17:21I did that. You built something real

1:17:23because you took the risk. And that's

1:17:25what we want. I know, I can tell even

1:17:26though we don't know each other very

1:17:28well, like that's what you want for your

1:17:30audience. That's what I want for people.

1:17:32I want people to realize, yes, you may

1:17:34have an autoimmune condition. You may be

1:17:36suffering from a mental health issue.

1:17:37You need to tend to those things in very

1:17:39direct ways but get these basic things

1:17:41right. You will be amazed how much

1:17:43better your life is.

1:17:44>> Are some people built different?

1:17:48>> In what sense?

1:17:49>> In any sense like you know when you look

1:17:50at somebody who's like just on a winning

1:17:53streak. You look at them and be like you

1:17:55know that beast is built different.

1:17:58Well, certainly um

1:18:01while there are exceptions of people who

1:18:03are very genetically disadvantaged,

1:18:05overcoming that and doing tremendously

1:18:07well in sport, the example that's always

1:18:09given is like Spud Webb won the slam

1:18:10dunk competition. He's not a tall guy

1:18:12kind of thing. Okay, but hang around

1:18:15some NBA players, you realize most of

1:18:17them are very very tall, right?

1:18:19>> That's a genetic thing. This amount of

1:18:21IGF-1 and growth hormone pumped out of

1:18:23their pituitary. So, you know, um

1:18:26largely inherited. So,

1:18:28>> but from a mindset perspective,

1:18:29>> from a mindset, this is a fascinating

1:18:31issue to me. I I do believe that some

1:18:36people have more energy and it's not

1:18:38necessarily physical or mental energy,

1:18:40although it often is. It's more a sense

1:18:44of self. Like some people report this,

1:18:47they believe when they're born that

1:18:48they're like faded to do something

1:18:50something. It's like they have this kind

1:18:53of vi like level of vibration in their

1:18:56nervous system that they need to like

1:18:57take it someplace and like do something

1:18:59with this. And when you give them

1:19:01something to bite down on and they just

1:19:02go and hopefully they bite down into

1:19:04something that's generative and healthy.

1:19:06>> You know, I I uh I humans are a unique

1:19:10animal, but I spend a lot of time

1:19:11thinking about the nervous systems of

1:19:13other animals too for reasons related to

1:19:15my scientific career. Some species of of

1:19:17animals have a lot of energy and others

1:19:19are very like loafed and then they

1:19:21occasionally do something right. People

1:19:23are kind of like that too. You know, I

1:19:24do think that some people are just more

1:19:26relaxed. They they not as driven. I

1:19:28think they are still fundamentally

1:19:30important to society. And I don't say

1:19:31that just to, you know, be politically

1:19:33correct. I think that they we need

1:19:34people who are just going to tend to

1:19:37certain things day in day out on a very

1:19:40um consistent level and they're not

1:19:42trying to break out of their current

1:19:44circumstances. They're not they don't

1:19:46feel this friction with their current

1:19:47circum they're not I do think that this

1:19:49is strongly related to the dopamine

1:19:51system. I think some people they feel

1:19:53the friction of where they're at. It's

1:19:56never enough which is tricky because you

1:19:58want people to savor what they have and

1:20:00continue to strive. You don't want

1:20:01people to be always dismayed. It's not

1:20:04enough. That's not good, right? And you

1:20:06see that when people start to think, oh,

1:20:08more cars, more money, more marriages,

1:20:12in some cases more children, you know,

1:20:13like it's interesting on X, you know, I

1:20:15I spend a fair amount of time on X.

1:20:18>> It's interesting. You can learn things

1:20:19there. But there seems to be this sort

1:20:20of like competitiveness that you can

1:20:22observe and certain people like about

1:20:23kids. Great. Children are wonderful.

1:20:25They're joyful. I I love kids, right?

1:20:28But

1:20:30when people are attached to any one

1:20:32thing as being the answer, it's very

1:20:34clear where that's headed. They're not

1:20:36they're headed for dismay. You know,

1:20:38they're headed for for trouble, whether

1:20:40it's money or it's fame or anything

1:20:42else. But I do think that having a

1:20:45little bit of internal friction and

1:20:48agitation or a lot. I mean, let's be

1:20:51fair, like

1:20:54many kind of disagreeable

1:20:57uh people go on to do great things

1:20:59because they look at the world and they

1:21:01say it can be so much better.

1:21:03>> We just have to build this, you know,

1:21:05trillion dollar company or it can be so

1:21:07much better. We just have to talk about

1:21:09all these things we know that nobody's

1:21:10willing to talk about. Like in my case,

1:21:12I really believe that there's deep value

1:21:14in people understanding some basic

1:21:16science of how they work and also some

1:21:19interesting things from health and

1:21:20wellness and things from ancient really

1:21:23ancient practices like yoga nidra that

1:21:26if we can just tell it to them in the

1:21:28form of physiology like maybe they'll

1:21:30get it like that most people just I

1:21:33would say a lot of people look at the

1:21:34world and they go h like I'm just trying

1:21:37to get by. Um are they lazy? No. Are

1:21:40they worse? No, it's just I do think

1:21:42that people who like to build things

1:21:46[sighs] have to build things.

1:21:48>> But when I was in high school and I was

1:21:49involved in certain things, I was

1:21:51talking to my friends about like, let's

1:21:52get a wholesale license and build this

1:21:53company. We probably should have done

1:21:54it. It would have done very well. We

1:21:56didn't. I listened too much and we

1:21:58didn't do it. But then I went in the

1:21:59direction of another thing. And then

1:22:00when I was running my lab, I'm tenured.

1:22:02I'm at Stanford. Everything's going

1:22:03great. We're publishing articles in

1:22:04Nature. It was a premier journal. I told

1:22:06my dad I'm going to start a podcast and

1:22:07he was like [sighs] to his credit he's

1:22:10great about it now he's been a guest on

1:22:12my podcast but he's like I don't know

1:22:13that Stanford is going to like that like

1:22:14how are you going to and I'm like I

1:22:16don't care I'm doing this it's like

1:22:18you're on a you have this feeling this

1:22:21landscape of health science wellness

1:22:24whatever it is it you just know it could

1:22:28be so much better for everybody I'm

1:22:31going

1:22:32>> and I think that's a unique trait and I

1:22:34think it involves a certain amount

1:22:35amount of of um no other option type

1:22:40feeling in your body. It's like you you

1:22:41feel pulled towards it. And I think the

1:22:43hard part for people who are in this

1:22:46category are when they feel these

1:22:50valleys of I'm not as driven or like

1:22:52things are not going as well. And I can

1:22:55tell you having been in a long

1:22:56scientific career now podcasting for you

1:22:59know six years or so. How long have you

1:23:01been podcasting?

1:23:02>> This is 50th.

1:23:02>> Great. So we're colleagues,

1:23:05peers and colleagues. You know, there's

1:23:07natural cycles. You know, the YouTube

1:23:09algorithm changes a little bit. The

1:23:11pause Bob I know has video like things

1:23:12change. Experts like and it goes and

1:23:15it's being a part of being a pro is

1:23:17being able to tolerate those dips in one

1:23:20area where other areas are going great

1:23:21and then all of a sudden you're on a

1:23:22rocket ship again.

1:23:23>> Yeah.

1:23:24>> And that just comes with maturity. Um

1:23:28but quitting was never an option. Never

1:23:31an option. But see, you don't get that

1:23:33quitting as an option because you're

1:23:35wired that way, right? Same as with me.

1:23:38But there are some people who quit.

1:23:41>> And I would ask them with kindness,

1:23:45do you really want it

1:23:48or is this or are you in the wrong

1:23:50domain? Maybe you want it, but you need

1:23:53to think about what it is

1:23:55>> like. And it's tough because in years

1:23:57that years one, two, and three, it does

1:24:00take an extreme output to see how far

1:24:03you can go. But until you've given

1:24:06something, you know, three years of

1:24:08really solid effort, like bordering on

1:24:11extreme effort, you don't know where it

1:24:13can go.

1:24:14>> True.

1:24:14>> You don't really know. Um, and it's

1:24:18tough because not everyone can do that.

1:24:20you know, suddenly they find themselves

1:24:21with a new child at home and then the

1:24:23certain although many people made it

1:24:25work anyway.

1:24:26>> Let me be specific and you explain me

1:24:28what's going on in the brain because you

1:24:29used a while ago you used the word

1:24:32risk-taking. Some people are like that

1:24:33they just go at it and then we were

1:24:36talking about another situation where a

1:24:38lot of people have dreams to do certain

1:24:40things, right? So let me be very

1:24:42specific that if there are two people

1:24:46and they want to do something risky in

1:24:48their life. Okay. One sees that risk and

1:24:51jumps and then goes and does it anyway.

1:24:54The another thinks about it, plans about

1:24:57it and just about to take a jump but

1:24:59then freezes and does not take the risk.

1:25:02What happens in the brain of that person

1:25:04who's freezing and not taking the risk?

1:25:06>> Yeah, it's a great question. Well, we

1:25:07can put science to it. Um

1:25:11there's a really nice paper about the

1:25:13neuroscience of choking, but not choking

1:25:16choking. Um meaning when the stakes get

1:25:20really high and you blow it. And it's a

1:25:24beautiful experiment and it shows that

1:25:27when

1:25:29you have the opportunity to do something

1:25:31and get a little reward, you rarely

1:25:34choke. When the rewards go up and up and

1:25:36up and you start thinking about what you

1:25:38stand to gain, not what you stand to

1:25:40lose, you over the brain overrecruits

1:25:43neurons in motor cortex and very skilled

1:25:47people miss.

1:25:49>> It's fascinating and this carries over

1:25:51to people in the world of finance and

1:25:52all sorts of things. So it's not that

1:25:54they're so at a neurological level,

1:25:57maybe even at a cognitive level.

1:26:00The freezing comes from thinking too

1:26:03much about how good it could go,

1:26:06[snorts] how well it could turn out, it

1:26:07becomes overwhelming. The stakes are so

1:26:10high.

1:26:11>> Yeah.

1:26:11>> So lower the stakes. Lower the stakes in

1:26:14your mind. This is why, you know, I

1:26:17love, you know, some of these phrases

1:26:19are just cliches, but there have been

1:26:20times in my career like I my podcast is

1:26:22doing very well, but then I had this

1:26:23book I needed to finish. It's a long

1:26:25book. It's almost 650 pages. It's like

1:26:27seven books collapsed into one.

1:26:30>> Yeah. So that people could read 100

1:26:32pages on sleep and have their sleep

1:26:33worked out or stress or exercise. They

1:26:35don't I don't expect anyone to read it

1:26:36all the way through, right? You'd fall

1:26:38asleep. So cure insomnia. But but doing

1:26:41that in parallel with the podcast was a

1:26:44lot. And so the mindset in my mind was

1:26:47chop wood, carry water, which is a

1:26:49phrase which just means some days you

1:26:51don't think about why. You just chop

1:26:53wood, carry water. This is how you keep

1:26:54a village going, right? Chop wood, carry

1:26:57water. And I said, I'm doing this simply

1:26:58because I said I would chop wood, carry

1:27:00water. Resentments would come up. Why' I

1:27:02do this?

1:27:04I can get out of this. Push that aside.

1:27:06Chop wood, carry water. Took time. Took

1:27:09much longer than I thought, but you get

1:27:11there. What was I doing? It was just

1:27:14lowering the stakes. Just do it today.

1:27:16Just today. One more day. One more day.

1:27:19I think when people get to that place

1:27:20where they could do something and they

1:27:22freeze, they're imagining how great it

1:27:25could go. We think they're imagining how

1:27:27terrible it could go. But what causes us

1:27:29to choke is, oh my goodness, like so

1:27:33much is at stake. If I can't do this, I

1:27:35can't do anything. So they're psyching

1:27:36themselves out. So lower the stakes.

1:27:39Give it go all in instead of for three

1:27:41years. Go all in for three days and then

1:27:44quit. Talk to me after three days. If

1:27:45you survive three days, you can survive

1:27:47three more days. You survive those three

1:27:49days, you can another three days. And

1:27:50just keep going. Lower the like bring

1:27:52the horizon in. Bring the time horizon

1:27:54in. That's the way to do it. Now, the

1:27:56person who just jumps, we love and

1:27:59admire those people. You did it. I did

1:28:01it. But the timing has to be right, too.

1:28:04You can't be reckless. You can't be

1:28:05halfhazard. We know this, right? That's

1:28:07how you get yourself killed in physical

1:28:09endeavors. And that's how you lose

1:28:11everything in financial endeavors,

1:28:13right? You know, um what is it? I think

1:28:16it's like the Warren Buffett saying

1:28:17like, you know, there, you know, three

1:28:18things kill men in in finance. Like it's

1:28:22like a liquor, you know. Um ladies, if

1:28:25they, you know, they're not faithful,

1:28:27they pick, you know, they have crazy,

1:28:29you know, dating life and this kind of

1:28:31thing. Um and leverage, they overlever

1:28:33like you, I mean, you can be take on too

1:28:35much risk and lose, right? and the other

1:28:38two the the first two there it's worth

1:28:40mentioning I've studied many stories of

1:28:43success in the creative arts in science

1:28:45in and and to some extent even in

1:28:47podcasting now the excesses that people

1:28:51bring about when they start to do really

1:28:53well are often what take them down

1:28:55overspending

1:28:57drugs you know I mean like we've watched

1:28:59this recent Conor McGregor thing this

1:29:02guy was at the pinnacle right and I

1:29:04don't know what his specific issues were

1:29:06but too much money, too many resources,

1:29:09not enough people around you to keep you

1:29:11in check and somebody can collapse. It's

1:29:14very easy to see and to recognize when

1:29:16somebody has a substance abuse issue or

1:29:18if they have a behavioral regulation

1:29:20issue and they're like getting in fights

1:29:22in bars or things like that, you know,

1:29:23which sadly um happened to a number of

1:29:27people who are like pro aletes.

1:29:30But the excesses are also excesses of

1:29:33ego where people think, "Oh, like I won

1:29:35the last I built 10 companies. I can

1:29:38build 10 more.

1:29:40>> How about one more better than all the

1:29:42other 10?" Right? This is where I do

1:29:44think like him or hate him, I think Elon

1:29:46is particularly impressive because he

1:29:48goes for big things, but he knows

1:29:50himself. He can manage all this stuff.

1:29:52>> You know, you you said about people who

1:29:55get it. It's about their ego and then

1:29:57power and then they kind of because they

1:29:59have all excessive things they start

1:30:02losing it right

1:30:02>> and attention

1:30:03>> and and attention so I was reading a

1:30:06research very recently

1:30:07>> and I'm quoting it it was about power

1:30:11like

1:30:12>> people who get so much power

1:30:15what power does to your brain is

1:30:17equivalent to somewhat of trauma like 20

1:30:21years of research they did I I can't

1:30:24remember the specifics But if you're

1:30:27given power, your brain literally

1:30:29changes as if it changes in trauma.

1:30:31>> Interesting.

1:30:32>> Like you get more impulsive. You start

1:30:34losing real sense of reality. All of

1:30:37these things starting to happen. Your

1:30:39decisions start getting worse and worse.

1:30:41And the the more and more powerful you

1:30:43get, all of these things start happening

1:30:44to you.

1:30:45>> Yeah. Well, the world uh enforces us. I

1:30:47it it makes me think, you know, when

1:30:49when kids are young and especially with

1:30:51adolescence, like many years ago, I was

1:30:53like a camp counselor and you see this

1:30:55thing with adolescence is they're

1:30:57constantly taking things to the they're

1:30:58like testing the edges, right? But deep

1:31:00down they want you and you need to keep

1:31:02them safe and small kids are like this.

1:31:05They'll sort of go to an edge of a thing

1:31:07and they'll look to their parents like,

1:31:08"Are you looking out for me?" Right? I

1:31:10mean as we get more power, more freedom,

1:31:14we sometimes like we test it. But yeah,

1:31:18life has its own way of of correcting

1:31:20these things. Um it's tricky because I

1:31:23don't want people to feel like as they

1:31:24gain success that they should, you know,

1:31:26just sit in their chair and keep

1:31:27working. For some people, the the reward

1:31:30is the work. And I think it is important

1:31:32to make the work a significant fraction

1:31:34of the reward. Otherwise, you can't keep

1:31:36it up. You can't just do something just

1:31:38for money. Unless you Listen, I know

1:31:40some investors. They will say it. They

1:31:42love money. Why do they Why do they love

1:31:44money? I don't know. Maybe they grew up

1:31:46poor. Maybe they just love money. They

1:31:48like investing. They like winning. But

1:31:49they like earning it. They don't like

1:31:52they like earning it more than they like

1:31:54spending it. It's so cool. It's like a

1:31:57game. It's like a video game for them.

1:31:58For me, I love learning and I love

1:32:00teaching. So for me, learning and

1:32:02teaching, learning and teaching, that's

1:32:03the process. and anything that comes of

1:32:05that whether or not it's recognition or

1:32:07any financial returns are just icing

1:32:11but people naturally start to focus on

1:32:14oh well if I do this thing that's a good

1:32:16business decision this will be good for

1:32:17me and my family I mean we can have m

1:32:19multiple incentives and motivations but

1:32:21as but we have to stay attached to the

1:32:23core thing

1:32:24>> the core thing like the the the work of

1:32:26it the essence the learning and the

1:32:28teaching for me like I'm constantly

1:32:30looking for new information I think

1:32:32could be of use this conversation is

1:32:33stimulating thought I mean I I am very

1:32:36intrigued by this family model. I think

1:32:39it's really beautiful but it has I'm

1:32:40going to think about that more what it

1:32:42means what what could be adopted for

1:32:44people who don't have the access to that

1:32:46what components might be useful or rep

1:32:48replicable um and other things you said

1:32:51like I I I think because for me learning

1:32:54and thinking and teaching is what it's

1:32:57about. I do think

1:33:00if somebody's doing really well, you

1:33:02would hate for them to think, "Oh, well,

1:33:04now it's all going to just, you know,

1:33:07like come crashing down." No, you can

1:33:08make really good decisions. And one of

1:33:10the best ways to do that is to have a

1:33:12committee of people. You should not be

1:33:14making all the decisions about your life

1:33:17in the confines of your skull. You need

1:33:19people that you respect, not for every

1:33:22decision, but certain people for certain

1:33:23decisions that you can bounce things off

1:33:25of. and you don't let them make the

1:33:27decisions, but you need to pressure test

1:33:29because we can delude ourselves, right?

1:33:32But there also comes a time when you

1:33:34just say, "I'm going to ignore

1:33:35everybody. I'm going to do this." And if

1:33:36it doesn't work out, you got your