Labour Conference, Diesel Shortage and Far Right Labradors - Off the Fence

0:00Hello everybody and welcome to this

0:02week's off the fence with me Constantin

0:04Kissen, my trigonometry co-host Francis

0:07Foster, Winston Marshall of the Winston

0:09Marshall show, and Tom Slater from

0:12Spike. Gentlemen, welcome back. This

0:14week's big four stories are Andy

0:17Bernham's first conference speech as

0:18prime minister in which he announced the

0:20return of tax spend reationalization and

0:23a not so subtle hint that Brexit is up

0:25for renegotiation with a possible

0:27referendum being offered at the next

0:29election. Diesel has hit over two pounds

0:32a liter and Trump is threatening an

0:34export ban. Andrew Neil, who we had on

0:37the show, it's coming out tomorrow, met

0:40argued that this could mean a recession

0:42by Christmas if it happens. Five men

0:45were arrested outside RAF Fairfoot in a

0:48suspected terrorist incident. And now

0:50the government says Iran may have been

0:52involved, in fact, was involved. And

0:54finally, the Green Party has published a

0:56list of banned words, including nutter

0:58and lunatic, presumably, so we can't

1:00accurately describe their supporters.

1:03With all that, let's get into our first

1:05story, which is the Labor Conference. As

1:06I mentioned, uh tax and spend is back,

1:10baby. Reationalization is back. Uh the

1:1340-year consensus. I nearly said Tony

1:16Blair would be rolling in his grave. He

1:17looks like he isn't one. He hasn't quite

1:19got there yet. Uh but this is this is a

1:22tear up not only of Thatcherism but also

1:23of Blairism going back all the way to

1:26the 70s and the potential for a

1:29renegotiation of Brexit and a hell of a

1:32lot more in his speech which was lauded

1:34not only by the left actually but I saw

1:36lots of right-wing commentators um

1:39applauding it as well. Tom, what did you

1:42make of it?

1:44>> I've got to say I was takenback by the

1:46gushing that was met this speech. Um on

1:50the one hand because I think there's

1:52just an element of because of how awful

1:54the quality of political leaders has

1:57been in recent years. Kristan was like

1:58the complete Nadier of that that a lot

2:00of the commentary is very easily

2:01impressed both in terms of his

2:02presentation which again was a bit

2:04chummier than usual but nevertheless not

2:06exactly barnstorming by historical

2:08standards and also the content. I mean

2:10what he was talking about in that speech

2:12was it was as if he was living in a

2:14parallel universe. I mean, this is the

2:15sort of speech a Labour Party leader

2:17would give in economic good times where

2:19there might be money to splurge on the

2:21Labour party's kind of pet projects and

2:23ideologies. It's the sort of speech that

2:25you would give if you had a very solid

2:27majority of the country behind you

2:29despite the fact he's just kind of

2:30inherited what was already a pretty weak

2:33um kind of sand castle majority from Kia

2:35Star and since then the Labour party's

2:36fortunes have plunged and the things

2:39that he was talking about and the things

2:40that came out over the course of Labour

2:42Party conference. I feel like I I I am

2:44loathed to make predictions these days,

2:45but this could be the point in which

2:47Labour really scuppered it for

2:48themselves, both in terms of going

2:51towards Brexit again, but in terms of

2:54the softening up of the position on

2:56migration, let alone what sounds like,

2:58if he ever actually pulls it off, a much

3:00more radical change to the economy,

3:02which in the context of incredibly

3:04jittery bond market seems like something

3:06which he couldn't do even if he wanted

3:07to. So yeah, I mean it's that all party

3:11conferences are a bit like staring into

3:13a kind of parallel universe. I suppose

3:14they're exclusively talking to the

3:16faithful of that particular party.

3:18They're saying things which play to

3:20their preferences and to their pet

3:22projects and whatever. But given the

3:24state that the country and the world is

3:26in at the moment, this felt like hubris

3:29doesn't even cover it. Felt delusional

3:31as much as anything else.

3:34I'm going to offer a contrarian opinion

3:37here which is going to upset people

3:39particularly Winnie. So strike you can

3:43you can absolutely go at me with

3:45vengeance and hell and fury. Look I'm

3:49going to be honest with you. I think the

3:51Labour party have played an absolute

3:54blinder by getting uh by getting Burnham

3:56in charge. Star was a sinking ship

3:59there. The Greens were coming and taking

4:01all of the left-wing lunatics away from

4:03the party. That was really damaging

4:06them. Then you had the right of the

4:08party who were casually flirting with

4:09the lip dems. Burnham has come in and

4:13shored things up. Now you can say, "Oh,

4:15right. Look, come on." Right? But this

4:16isn't going to happen. You know, this

4:18isn't a permanent thing. And maybe it

4:21isn't. And maybe it's like the

4:24proverbial drink before you have to face

4:26the harsh realities of the morning. And

4:28it's only a short-term solution. But you

4:31know what, boys? As short-term solutions

4:33go, this is a pretty good one.

4:36You and you also can make the argument

4:39that in life, Tom, we get the

4:41politicians that we deserve. And here's

4:44WHAT WE DESERVE. WHAT WE want is SOMEONE

4:47TO COME UP THERE, not to say the hard

4:49things, not to be like, "Oh, actually,

4:52we're going to need to make drastic

4:53cuts. This ship is sinking. We need to

4:57be prudent. We need to be fin. We need

4:59to actually think about finances and

5:02economics. No, we want someone to be our

5:06mate. Look at our ever expanding

5:09terrible habits, gambling, expanding gut

5:12and going, you know what, baby, you're

5:14beautiful as you are. That's what

5:16Burnham is. And he snap.

5:18>> I couldn't help noticing, mate. I

5:20couldn't really concentrate on what you

5:21were saying there because I was just

5:22watching Winston's face. Now he went

5:24through a range of emotions there but

5:26most worrying most worryingly he was

5:29making notes. Now that's when you know

5:31things are serious for me.

5:36>> Yeah. Believe it or not I take a

5:37different view

5:39actually. Uh I I have a higher sense of

5:44selfworth. So I I don't feel like this

5:45is the prime minister I deserve. But

5:47Francis, maybe this is the prime

5:48minister.

5:51>> I

5:52I was pacing the room in anger listening

5:56to this guy's speech

5:58and also up again when I heard all the

6:01reactions which Tom alluded to earlier

6:04and the sort of fawning and haggio from

6:07the media. The sort of guy the new

6:09statesman said he was crying listening

6:11to it. Riby at Sky News saying it was

6:14sort of you could see her sort of

6:16tearary and kind of emotional about it.

6:18Everyone thinking this is some sort of

6:20amazing moment.

6:22I'll cut to the chase. The most

6:24important part of this in my humble

6:26opinion is the illusions to proportional

6:30representation.

6:32>> He calls it electoral reform.

6:36Now for our American audience, people

6:37don't understand this. At the moment in

6:39Britain, we have first pass the post,

6:41which means that whoever gets the most

6:44votes, whether in a constituency and

6:46then in parliament, the most seats, so

6:49we have 650 seats and so whoever gets

6:52326, which is half plus one, they can

6:55form a majority and they can form a

6:57party. If you bring in proportional

6:59representation, which Andy Bernham has

7:01been saying throughout his political

7:03career,

7:05we will never be able to vote out of our

7:08problems again. Because as we examined

7:12last week, the split of the nation, not

7:14just now that we've got like six parties

7:16or there several more actually, but the

7:19right and left are pretty much split 48

7:2148%. So you would never get to a

7:24situation where you you could form a

7:25coalition of parties

7:28to get over that 326 seats, which means

7:31we'd be stuck here. And if we're stuck

7:34here, there will be other consequences.

7:38This

7:40I I really don't think people appreciate

7:41how damaging it is. Best case scenario,

7:44look at the continent. Look at these

7:45other countries like Italy who just

7:46perpetually changing leaders. We'd be

7:50stuck. And and for that, I don't need to

7:52go into all the problems we've got, but

7:53that is really the number one problem.

7:57There's some other things, though. He's

7:59talking about expropriation.

8:01They're saying they're going to

8:02confiscate homes and properties in towns

8:06and expropriate them and give them to

8:09people who need homes. This is literally

8:11Leninist. We're past socialism here.

8:14They're taking property. I don't know

8:17how that he I'm not sure they use the ex

8:19the word expropriate. They used the word

8:21se's. These guys make mandi look like

8:24van mises. It's mental. It's literally

8:27mental and and people are still fawning

8:29over this. And sorry I could rant at

8:31length and I don't want to sort of hog

8:33hog the air time. So if anyone wants to

8:35push back on any of those things, please

8:37please do. But before I sort of

8:38>> I want to push back on all of you by

8:40biting my time.

8:44Well, I'll just say a couple other

8:46things.

8:47This idea that Brexit and I think we'll

8:50probably talk are we going to talk about

8:51Brexit separately? Should I save my

8:52Brexit point?

8:53>> Yeah. Yeah. Save your Brexit stuff. I

8:54think we'll we'll talk about that.

8:56>> I'll say one more thing about

8:58Thatcherism. this whole thing was

8:59anchored his whole sort of worldview is

9:02this idea that sort of will after the

9:04war the beverage report which he he

9:07cited and then you have this kind of

9:09high time in sort of English prosperity

9:12and British prosperity and we sort of

9:14build the country up. I'm sorry. And

9:17then thatcher of course destroys and

9:18ruins everything. Firstly in the 60s it

9:22was 95% tax

9:25on on on top marginal rates. That's a it

9:29would be a disaster if we went back to

9:30that. Not only that, in the 70s we

9:32didn't just have piles of rubbish in the

9:34streets. We had dead bodies piled in the

9:37streets. We had three-day working weeks.

9:38We had blackouts. We had inflation going

9:41through the roof. We had to be bailed

9:42out by the IMF.

9:44>> And this is that's supposed to be the

9:46high time and these guys world view. Oh,

9:48bring back the 70s.

9:51>> Can someone explain? Can someone one of

9:52you guys explain why they're so obsessed

9:54with the 70s and and this period which

9:57was clearly like a low point in our in

10:00our history? What what's going on?

10:03Well, we had two interviews this week.

10:06One of them I mentioned already with

10:07Andrew Neil. The other one was with Owen

10:09Jones who literally made the very

10:11argument that you are now saying that

10:12the 70s was the best time and then

10:15neoliberalism came along and ruined it.

10:18So, I hope people go and watch that. Uh

10:20Dean, let's show people what Andrew Neil

10:22had to say about Burnham and the

10:24policies before I get to my

10:25controversial take.

10:30>> It's the people who blame. Uh it's

10:32British attitudes to blame because the

10:35British people think they can have

10:39Scandinavian levels of cradle to the

10:42grave welfare

10:44on kind of mid-Atlantic taxes. And

10:47here's the thing, you can't. Although if

10:49people vote in a way that results in a a

10:52right of center government that might

10:54not deliver on all these things, if the

10:57country does vote for the Andy Burnham

10:59prospectus, that's it. We we are a

11:04socialist tax and spend future. There's

11:07no going back from that. He believes

11:10that a bigger state means more growth. I

11:13hope he is away with the fairies, but

11:16that's his belief. Why don't you think

11:18it's going to work?

11:19>> Because I don't see anywhere in the

11:20world where it ever has. So, a crisis in

11:24the bond markets could force this

11:26government into doing things it doesn't

11:28want to do. I think we are heading for

11:30some really tough times.

11:40So, that will be out tomorrow. And I

11:42wrote an article yesterday uh in which I

11:45only with a very little small portion of

11:47my tongue in my cheek argue that Andy

11:50Bernham will save Britain. There is a

11:52bit of a caveat which is that if there's

11:54a fiscal crisis very soon then that

11:56might not happen. But if he is allowed

11:59to do this, it will destroy the economy

12:03so much that that is in my opinion the

12:05only way the British public will

12:07actually reset their attitudes to all of

12:09these things. Because one of the things

12:10I talk about in the article is the

12:13British public have a schizophrenic

12:16attitude to tax and spend. If you ask

12:19people about tax and spend, it's

12:21actually very unpopular. Only 36% of

12:23people in this country say that they're

12:25in favor of tax and spend uh in the in

12:29the general sweep of things. But then

12:31when you ask them about individual

12:32policies, if you ask them about a wealth

12:35tax, if you ask them about a mansion

12:36tax, if you ask them about taxing the

12:38top 1% more, taxing the top 10% more,

12:41reationalizing the water companies,

12:44reationalizing

12:45railways, reationalizing your grandma,

12:48they're massively, massively, massively

12:50in favor of it. And my argument is the

12:53British public will remain in favor of

12:55all of these things until this worldview

12:57is utterly discredited by reality which

12:59I would argue is what happened in the

13:0270s which is why you then had a period

13:04of time when you were able as a country

13:06to pursue a different set of policies

13:08that actually created u the the modern

13:11economy as we have it. I am with all

13:14respect to our fellow citizens convinced

13:16that until that reality manifests itself

13:19in disaster. We will not there is no

13:22argument to be won anymore. People are

13:25people believe that prosperity is

13:26generated by taking more from other

13:29people. That is the British attitude to

13:31these things as Andrew Neil said and

13:33until we have an economic reality that

13:37really hurts people which is something I

13:40really really don't want. It will be

13:42absolutely terrible. All four of us are

13:44going to be more or less insulated or

13:46cushioned from it certainly more than

13:47the ordinary person. And it's because of

13:49that that I've spent my entire public

13:52life arguing against this world view.

13:55But I I I am I I feel entirely powerless

13:59and I feel that better people than all

14:01of us have made better arguments than

14:03all of us about this and I don't think

14:06the British public care. I think they

14:08want to have a go at socialism. And I

14:10think the elation that you saw not only

14:13in the room at the Labour Party

14:14conference, but across the media, across

14:16social media from across the political

14:19spectrum actually is not because Andy

14:22Burnham talked about his dad moving,

14:24although a lot of people are seduced by

14:25the sort of personal narrative. I think

14:28the reason this stuff got the reaction

14:30that it got, is that he's offering a lot

14:32of people what they want.

14:35Well, of course, the difficulty here is

14:37that how you poll particular questions

14:38will produce particular outcomes. Um,

14:41because as you say, even though you

14:42could look on net what the British

14:45public seem to believe about economic

14:48policy more broadly, you break it up,

14:49you get different responses. I suppose

14:51one thing, maybe this is a note of

14:52optimism, is that I think the British

14:53public where economic matters are

14:55concerned are actually more persuadable

14:56than it often seems. Like even the kind

14:59of quote unquote austerity is, we could

15:00argue about whether or not that was

15:02meaningfully austerity. that was very

15:04popular. I mean that was a program for

15:06the country which the public felt that

15:08was necessary that needed to be

15:10implemented to write the public

15:11finances. Of course it didn't actually

15:13put us in better steady economically in

15:15the end but nevertheless that was

15:16something that the public were open

15:18towards. The the thing about Andy

15:19Bernham and his economic outlook I think

15:21he's going to be disastrous for the

15:23economy for the country but maybe not in

15:25the way that you think Constantine just

15:26in the sense that I think he represents

15:28the continuation of what Karma was doing

15:31of what the last conservative government

15:33was doing rather than any particular

15:34acceleration of it. The weddedness to

15:37net zero for instance which I'm sure

15:38we'll come on to in relation to the

15:40diesel crisis. the weddedness to the

15:44just kind of trundling along rather than

15:46engaging in the kind of spending cuts

15:48restructuring of the economy that is

15:49necessary. If you listen to that speech

15:52quite closely, it's also there I might

15:55be proven wrong by future events.

15:57There's an element where I think he's

15:58just going to go down as a kind of a bit

16:00of a leftwing prick tease to a certain

16:02extent. He will say things like in that

16:04speech, we're going to lift the Thatcher

16:06era ban on nationalization. Then when it

16:08comes to him saying what it is that he

16:09actually intends to do, it's more public

16:12control which could be everything from

16:14having some kind of pony community

16:16representative on the board of an energy

16:18company just or to having the mayor

16:20being able to call in bosses of energy

16:22companies. It can be something a lot

16:24lower than that. I think he is kind of

16:25aware of the fact that even when he

16:27wasn't leader of the Labour party, him

16:28even just sounding off about the bond

16:30markets moved the bond markets. I think

16:33he knows he's actually quite hemmed in.

16:34I think he is going to be disastrous for

16:36the country, for the economy, I think it

16:38could well accelerate the decline in the

16:40way that you're slightly tongue and

16:42cheek hoping for Constantine. But

16:43because he's more of the same rather

16:46than it being any kind of radical break

16:49with the past, but again, I might be

16:51eating these words in 6 months.

16:54>> Do you know where I am with this? And

16:55it's slightly with Constantin, but it's

16:57just I remember when I was doing standup

17:00and I were regularly and I was saying to

17:02the standup comedians as Constantin was,

17:05this free speech thing, it's a big

17:08thing. Cancel culture is real. It's

17:11going to affect you. It's going to

17:12affect all of us. It's going to

17:14constrain it. You know, they called us

17:17far right Nazi, whatever else. And then

17:20they went on. Anyway, the other week I

17:23was in a comedy club in the green room

17:26and there was a group of comedians in a

17:28corner and they were talking about how

17:30worried they were about cancel culture.

17:32They couldn't say this, they couldn't

17:34say that. Someone got banned from

17:36playing this club for saying this. What

17:38happens if you don't fully go on with

17:39the pro pali thing? And I looked over

17:42there and I was like, "Welcome to the

17:45club, boys. You finally got it, didn't

17:47you?" And that's how I see this. You can

17:50only keep repeating the same thing again

17:52and again to people. You can only do it

17:54so many times eventually. It's like when

17:57you're my only other reference being a

17:59teacher, you can only say to them to the

18:01kids, you know what? Do your revision.

18:03AND IF THEY DON'T WANT TO do it, you go,

18:05well, you're going to fail your exams

18:07and I'm going to be on my summer

18:09holidays. What do you want? That's where

18:12we are. If they if THE IF THE BRITISH

18:14PROBABLY WANT SOCIALISM,

18:22I KK in a way I'm sort of hope you're

18:26right and you giving the example of

18:29thatcher coming after the 70s is is a is

18:32a positive example I'd say it's not the

18:35only way it goes and

18:37>> I agree

18:39>> so you know we've got the example of the

18:4270s that that that pre-80s period we've

18:46got all the examples of socialism

18:49everywhere in the world which continue

18:51to this day and communism.

18:54We've got the Soviet Union example.

18:55We've we we've just got every kind of

18:57example. We've got a lot of lies about

18:59what the examples of what's going on

19:01with social democracy on the on the

19:03continent.

19:05My worry is it could also go the example

19:08of let's say Mitan in France in the 80s

19:12where he comes in hard left. It doesn't

19:15go well. After a couple of years, he

19:17yanks he he he goes to the right to save

19:20the economy,

19:22which means that you kind of carry

19:23either carry on with the socialist or

19:25and this is what happened to Star. You

19:28get a faction on who go you're not going

19:30left enough and so then they form their

19:33Green Party. Basically, the problem

19:35they're idologues so they can't be

19:38wrong. So, they just they'll just I'm

19:41not sure that they'll ever unplug.

19:42they'll just go further left.

19:45>> So,

19:45>> oh yeah, yeah. But, but that's where the

19:47market the bond markets create the

19:50correction. That's where the reality

19:51snaps back. To amplify your pessimism

19:54further, I think there's a third way

19:56this could go, which is of course a

19:581930s style situation. And if you look

20:00at the cultural issues that we've got, a

20:02tanking economy plus all of that, you

20:05could be looking at a far-left far right

20:07both rising rapidly at the same time in

20:09response to the deterioration of the

20:11economy. I want to make it super super

20:13clear. I am not in favor of this. I just

20:17think it's the only way things have a

20:19chance to get profoundly better in the

20:22next 10 years. Otherwise, we will likely

20:25get what you're talking about, Winston,

20:26which is a continuing bumbling along the

20:29bottom, continuing sort of trying to

20:33well, you know, look look at we can

20:35borrow more money. we can we can find a

20:37way to I I read an argument I think in

20:38the Telegraph the other day that uh you

20:41know what we really need to do is

20:42restructure the debt so we can borrow

20:44more and then everything will be fine.

20:46It's like I I I and I think that is the

20:50temptation of every politician actually

20:52is to find a way to pretend we don't

20:55have a problem because the moment you

20:56stop you then don't have to fix it and

20:58fixing it is going to be bloody awful.

21:02that the there's an a practical element

21:05to this as well which is what is

21:08actually the situation in Britain right

21:09now and if we get to the next election

21:12in three years the right is still split

21:15>> Labour win either a majority or they win

21:18uh in coalition they bring in

21:21proportional representation as I

21:23mentioned earlier so your even your

21:26example as like the least bad scenario

21:28way to wake people up we might be on a

21:30path where it's almost moot because

21:33we're just going to have so many hellish

21:35other problems with a split country as

21:38I've argued before who don't seem to

21:40actually change from right to left

21:42particularly overall but just change

21:44within right and within left. So

21:48whilst I I I hope people wake up to the

21:50realities of of these policies I I I'm

21:53less hopeful about what's actually next.

21:59>> Go ahead. I was saying there is a

22:02scenario in which this provided the

22:04right gets its act together which is a

22:06very big if at this point we've seen

22:08some council bi-elections overnight in

22:10which restore stop reform from gaining a

22:13seat is a pattern that we're seeing

22:14recurring across the country but if the

22:16right got its act together I think this

22:18could be seen as the moment in which

22:20Andy Bernham just completely scuppered

22:21Labour's chances at the next election

22:23because what are the two big issues

22:24which are affecting society poll any

22:27poll will show they're jostling for

22:28position number one and position number

22:29two cost of living and it's immigration.

22:32On immigration at this conference,

22:33Labour have softened up already an

22:35incredibly soft set of reforms. They're

22:37going to seemingly junk a lot of what

22:39they were going to do around indefinite

22:40leave to remain. Essentially allowing a

22:42large chunk of the Boris wave to be able

22:44to access benefits be on a pathway to

22:45citizenship. They're opening up these

22:47quote unquote safe and legal routes, how

22:49safe they they'll be legal, but they say

22:51they won't be safe. particularly in

22:53relation to Afghan Afghanistan and

22:55Palestine. They claim it's going to be

22:57cats, but as we all saw from that one

22:59Palestinian woman who came over and then

23:01managed to bring 18 of her family

23:03members along effortlessly. I don't

23:05think that's going to move the dial at

23:07all. People are already making jokes,

23:09you know, he says he wants growth in

23:10every post code. The way things are

23:11going, it's going to be a migrant rapist

23:12in every postcode. I mean, all of these

23:14things are this is the issue of our era

23:17and he's on the wrong side of it. Then

23:18you look at the economy. Even if he

23:20doesn't get to the point where he can

23:22engage in these grand nostalgic spirit

23:24of 1945 kind of visions for what he

23:27wants to do to the economy, even just

23:29carrying on as we are is going to be

23:32disastrous. We are facing another fuel

23:35crisis. We It is going to look like a

23:37particularly painful winter potentially.

23:40And what are we talking about? Maybe,

23:41just maybe, will speed up some of the

23:43North Sea oil and gas licenses without,

23:46you know, even actually changing the

23:49policy there. Tinkering is what is the

23:51kind of medium case scenario, I think,

23:54for what Burnham is actually going to

23:55do. So, given a bit of time, I think

23:56that is could be potentially disastrous

23:58for him. As I say, this is the the

24:01requirement in all of this would be that

24:03either the right-wing parties or

24:04right-wing voters get their heads around

24:07this and start kind of sorting into the

24:09party that's most likely to win in their

24:11constituency or the party that's most

24:12likely to win in the country. But

24:14looking at where things are at at the

24:15moment, obviously that is such a massive

24:17if. It's probably not much to hang your

24:18hat on, I guess. Well, given the the

24:21negative conversation we've had, I do

24:23think it's important to eject a little

24:25bit of a note of optimism and say that

24:27we could in a few years be facing

24:30another Brexit referendum, which

24:31obviously would be wonderful and

24:33delightful for all of us. The first one

24:34went fantastically well, really united

24:38the country and that is one of the

24:40things that Labour under Bernham are

24:42considering. From what I understand, the

24:43entire front bench basically uh died in

24:46the wool remainers. Uh, and as I think

24:49everyone watching this will know,

24:50Francis and I voted remain in the

24:52referendum, but were absolutely

24:54disgusted by the way the the remain side

24:57tried to earn overturn the the

24:58Democratic vote. Uh, but that is

25:01effectively what Bernham is proposing to

25:03put uh in the election manifesto at the

25:06next election, which would give us

25:08another 10 years uh of the wonderful

25:11shenanigans that we had before. What do

25:13we make of this?

25:15>> Well, you know what? I think it's a

25:17great idea because I don't think we're

25:18divided enough at the moment.

25:20>> For goodness sake,

25:21>> what you you're just trying to wind me

25:23up.

25:25>> It's not that hard these days, mate.

25:29>> I don't think we're dividing. We're

25:31divided enough. I DON'T THINK THE LEFT'S

25:33DIVIDED ENOUGH. I DON'T think the

25:34right's divided enough, whether it's the

25:36right or the right wing. I think we need

25:39more division. Let's have more to argue

25:42about. Let's break up more families,

25:44more relationships,

25:46more interfamiliar relationships. Let's

25:49get everybody at each other's throats.

25:52Let's bring back the big dogs. Let's get

25:54it in THE ROOM. WHY NOT? WHY NOT?

25:56EVERYTHING ELSE IS GOING TO [ __ ] Why

25:58not throw a lynx can on the bonfire?

26:02>> You know what? Actually, you make a good

26:04point because

26:05>> Burnham started his speech saying enough

26:09of the division of the last 10 years of

26:11politics.

26:12>> Yeah.

26:12>> Before going into an unbelievably

26:15divisive speech.

26:17>> What could be more divisive than Brexit?

26:19Everyone's finished. We're just No one

26:20wants to revisit that. I mean, I know

26:22they do. All those remainer from metas.

26:24I I would say I, by the way, this is

26:26going to sound very wet, but I actually

26:27sport my ballot for Brexit, although I'm

26:29now very very hard Brexit. And I don't

26:32think we need to go much further. Um I

26:34certainly don't want to go and the

26:35reason because I think that is because

26:37all the remain lie all the remain

26:40arguments prove to be lies but that's a

26:42conversation for another day. But there

26:43is something on this Brexit thing I need

26:45to pick up because it's a crazy lie that

26:48Labour keeps keeps selling.

26:51>> They keep saying that immigration was

26:55illegal immigration was easier to deal

26:57with when we were within the EU. And the

27:00argument is because of the Dublin

27:02protocol, the Dublin agreement, we could

27:06send back illegal entrance to wherever

27:08they first came from, where sorry,

27:10wherever they first entered in the EU. I

27:14got a question for you guys. I got it's

27:15a fan pop quiz.

27:18of the 30,000

27:24uh requests from the UK to return

27:27illegal immigrants from between 2015 and

27:312020 to other nations in the EU. How

27:35many

27:36were successful?

27:38What do you think?

27:40>> 50.

27:40>> I'm not sure about that time. I'm not

27:42sure about that time frame, but I

27:43remember it was something like 500 a

27:45year or something in that ballpark.

27:48Yeah, basically 1,800 in that total

27:51time. And not only that, we had to take

27:54in more

27:55>> from EU countries wanting to send them

27:57back to us.

27:59>> So this idea that it was somehow easier

28:01to deal with illegal immigration is a

28:04total lie.

28:06It's it's it's

28:07>> they think we're stupid

28:09>> to especially to try and sustain that

28:11now is fascinating because as you said

28:13that stuff about the Dublin accord is

28:14just complete bollocks and anyone who

28:16looks into it for 5 seconds will realize

28:18that also the fact that we've had all

28:20this non-EU migration since Brexit first

28:22of all we know why because Boris Johnson

28:25decided to loosen up the visa rules but

28:26also you saw that in various the

28:28European countries they were all

28:29desperately trying to plug these gaps in

28:31the labor market after COVID and the

28:33lockdowns and everything. Um, and then

28:35also if you think about the the EU, we

28:37would be rejoining an EU in which this

28:39lunatic Pedro Sanchez has just granted

28:41an asylum to an amnesty rather to a

28:45million illegal migrants who as soon as

28:47they get Spanish citizenship could be on

28:49their way to Britain.

28:51>> Yeah. Or 60,000 people crossing the

28:53border in two

28:55>> hours or two days or whatever it was in

28:57Fueta.

28:58>> Exactly. Well pronounced there. I'm sure

29:00um France has been giving less. I've

29:01been working on that for a while. It's

29:02the

29:04like that exactly those that invasion is

29:07what the the future of the EU looks

29:09like. They've always struggled to

29:10control their own external border. We'd

29:12be lumping ourselves back into it again.

29:14And um it's like going back to this

29:17point about how Labor live in fantasy

29:19land. The remainers within Labor and the

29:21rest of politics are completely in

29:22fantasy land. They're the most low

29:24information people when it comes to the

29:26issue of the European Union and

29:27migration. The only way the rejoin case

29:30can be sustained is if you do not pay

29:32attention at all to what is going on

29:34within the European Union. They act like

29:36it's a land of economic milk and honey.

29:38Well, meanwhile, France is like

29:39teetering on the edge of a sovereign

29:41debt crisis and Germany, the former

29:43industrial powerhouse, is it

29:45de-industrializing at a rate of knots.

29:47They talk about it as if it's this kind

29:48of haven of like political center-left

29:52centrist stability. Meanwhile, again in

29:55France and Germany, they're spoiling to

29:56elect parties that make reform look like

29:58the Lib Dems. Like, it doesn't make any

30:00sense if you actually

30:02>> It makes sense in one way, Tom. It makes

30:04sense in one way, I think, which and I

30:06think this is the reason that they think

30:08this might be a time to do this because

30:10if you poll the British public at a very

30:12superficial level,

30:14>> there are a lot of people who quote

30:15unquote regret Brexit. And I think that

30:18what's happening there is my theory, I

30:19may be wrong about this, is people don't

30:22think about the causal relationship very

30:24carefully. So they say, well, we had

30:26Brexit in 2016. Then we had 5 years of

30:29[ __ ] around about Brexit, which was,

30:32as Francis alludes to, quite divisive.

30:34>> Then we got whatever Brexit got. We

30:36didn't get reduction in immigration. But

30:38what we've also got is is falling living

30:41standards. And people go, well, we got

30:42Brexit, then we got falling living

30:43standards. Therefore, Brexit caused

30:45living standards cuz they don't know

30:47that the European Union is actually

30:49growing far slower than the UK. Even

30:51though our growth is anemic, theirs is

30:54even more an I don't know what the right

30:56adjective would be for worse than anemic

30:59like dead I guess is right. They're not

31:02growing at all basically. Um

31:04>> they got like sickle cell or something,

31:05you know.

31:06>> Yeah. Sickle cell. Yeah, exactly. Their

31:07economy is at sickle cell levels.

31:10So, so, so what we've got is

31:12>> two months after, sorry.

31:14>> Yeah. Yeah. So, I think I think what's

31:17happening is British people go, we had

31:19Brexit, it's that uh prop whatever the I

31:24can't remember the Latin expression, but

31:25something happened therefore the thing

31:26that followed it happened because of it.

31:28And that's what we've got with this

31:30where people go Brexit happened, things

31:32have not got better, therefore Brexit

31:34was bad. and they're not looking at the

31:37facts that you're talking about which is

31:38on the two major issues in this country

31:41which is the economy and immigration the

31:43European Union and its key countries

31:47Germany Italy and France are act and

31:49Spain are actually doing even worse than

31:51we are and so to go back into that at

31:55great cost and great turmoil to the

31:57country uh even as someone who who

31:59thought you know the remain argument not

32:02the ones that were lies but the other

32:04remain arguments strong. Um I just this

32:07doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

32:08And by the way, we put we talked about

32:11this with Andrew Neil and his argument

32:12was that

32:14>> actually Labour haven't thought this

32:16through because that's superficial

32:18Brexit regret when it becomes converted

32:21into actual campaigning and when people

32:23start to become aware of the economic

32:24realities of the EU and other things

32:27that are going on, this may prove if

32:29they go for this may this may prove to

32:31be their downfall. Yeah, I completely

32:33agree on that score because also

32:36rejoining the EU the case for that is so

32:39much tougher than remaining within the

32:41EU like remain we know what the status

32:44quo looks like you know that's something

32:45which is quite clear but if as soon as

32:48that campaign gets underway talking

32:50about the euro talking about freedom of

32:52movement that rebate we're never getting

32:54back all of these arguments are ones

32:56that strengthen the leave or the in this

32:58case the remain out if you like cause I

33:01just don't it again immigration I think

33:04with a bit of it wouldn't take much

33:06explaining to say that again rejoining

33:09the EU at this point is going to be a

33:10very very bad idea so um I I think be

33:13careful what they wish for really I mean

33:15I I I again don't like to make

33:17predictions too much but I it seems like

33:19a slam dunk if we ever got to another

33:22referendum but it's the sort of thing I

33:23don't think there is much appetite for

33:25it in the country because you can

33:26superficially poll people and say do you

33:28reckon we should rejoin the EU do you

33:29reckon you regret it but again as soon

33:31as you get a bit more granular

33:32Do you think we should be in the euro?

33:33No. Do you think that we should have

33:35freedom of movement? No. Even if you ask

33:37people, do you think we should have our

33:38own trade policy? They're like, of

33:39course we should. So again, it won't

33:42take much, I think, for this fantasy to

33:44collide with reality. And I am amazed

33:46they're going back towards it. I think

33:47it's just cuz it's like an identity

33:48question for these politicians as much

33:50as it is anything else now.

33:52>> Like they were so wounded by that vote

33:54going the wrong way 10 years ago. even

33:56ones who were in the Labour party or in

33:58politics who weren't that bothered about

33:59the EU of suddenly it's become their

34:01entire personality. Um, but it's it's

34:04definitely not going to survive contact

34:05with reality.

34:07>> And also as well, Andrew Andrew made a

34:09very good point when Andrew Neil in our

34:11interview when he said, "Look, there's

34:12also the practical realities of as a

34:16politician, you're a human being. You've

34:17got limited bandwidth. You've got a

34:19limited amount of hours. You've got a

34:21limited amount of energy. You can only

34:23dedicate and devote yourself to so many

34:25issues and causes and problems and

34:28whatever else. You're going to add this

34:30to it. This is going to take up so many

34:33manh hours. It's going to take up a huge

34:37amount of time, effort, and energy.

34:40We've got huge problems elsewhere that I

34:43don't think it's hyperbolic to describe

34:44them as existential, and this is what

34:47you want to deal with. Do you know WHAT

34:49I MEAN? WE'RE LIKE, YOU KNOW, A GUY

34:51who's basically his house is falling

34:54apart, the wife's about to leave him,

34:55the kids are hating him, and he's like,

34:57you know what? I think I think I think

34:59it's time to get the band back together

35:00in it. That's what we need to do. Are

35:03you going, "No, mate. I think I think

35:05you need I think you need to put the

35:06fire out." That's where we are. So,

35:09realistically, I don't can't see it

35:12happening purely from just a logistical

35:16point of view on the Labor side.

35:18>> One final word. We actually have to we

35:21have to do it's the opposite of what we

35:23actually have to do which is we we have

35:25to leave the European Convention of

35:26Human Rights which were bound to with

35:29the Human Rights Act which is what is

35:31stopping us from actually dealing with a

35:34lot of our legal immigration problems.

35:36He he is going in literally the wrong

35:38direction. We need more Brexit.

35:42>> There we go. More Brexit. Uh easy sell

35:45no doubt to the country. Uh now let's

35:47move on to another issue which I

35:50actually think could be extraordinarily

35:53impactful on the country. Uh and it is

35:55of course the potential diesel ban from

35:58the US. The US is currently providing

36:01about a third of the diesel we have in

36:02this country. Francis take it away.

36:05>> Okay so um so Trump has threatened to

36:08ban diesel exports from the US. And so

36:12just for a little bit of info for people

36:14who don't know what diesel is used for,

36:16it's used for heavy transportation,

36:18industry, agriculture, but also this is

36:20important for emergency backup systems

36:22for hospitals. This is very very very

36:26important stuff. He's worried about the

36:28rising price of diesels with the

36:30midterms coming up and he wants to use

36:32he wants Europe to use their diesel

36:34reserves to flood the market and

36:36therefore lower prices. And obviously

36:39the rise in diesel prices due to the war

36:42in Iran and a Russian ban on diesel

36:45exports because of the Ukraine war. And

36:48this has a lot of this pressure has been

36:50put on him by Republicans in

36:52agricultural heartland

36:56are really worried about the backlash

36:58from the midterms. Uh France, Italy, and

37:02Germany have about 900 days of diesel

37:06combined. Um, we're in the UK because

37:09we're [ __ ] We have 42 because we're

37:13idiots. Um, now I've got a different

37:15stat to UK because in the Telegraph they

37:18said we import about 55% of our diesel

37:21from the US. So I don't know who's

37:23right. That's what the

37:24>> Do you know? Can you look it up with

37:25Venice AI? What is the percentage of our

37:28diesel that comes from the US at the

37:29moment? But carry on, Francis. We'll

37:31look it up and we'll get the stats up.

37:33>> Yeah. And um and I've got some other

37:36good news guys. So, our biggest refinery

37:39uh is set to shut down uh for 10 weeks

37:42uh due to maintenance.

37:44So, the the biggest refinery that we

37:46have is about to close down because we

37:48need to maintain it. So, on top of that,

37:51that's an extra [ __ ] But don't

37:54worry, the government came out and said

37:55we have a diverse, they love that word,

37:58don't they? Doesn't matter what we are,

37:59we're diverse, uh and resilient supply.

38:03And as KK said, we're about to hit or

38:06we've just gone through the two pound a

38:07liter threshold. And this is really,

38:11really, really worrying because if this

38:14happens, this plunges an already fragile

38:18economy into a recession. We are not

38:22robust. We cannot withstand this type of

38:25economic shock. It is a major concern

38:29not only for Europe but particularly for

38:32us as we simply do not have the reserves

38:35to cope with this. And I guess the

38:38question is um do we think this is going

38:41to happen? Is this simply Trump

38:44posturing? Will the Europeans

38:46capitulate? And uh does it matter that

38:49we're diverse?

38:52Well, one of the things we should

38:53separate is Europeans from us. Actually,

38:56in many ways, we just talked about the

38:58fact that

38:58>> agree with you, mate.

39:00>> Of course, we need more Brexit. But the

39:02one area in which the Europeans have

39:04actually in this instance done much

39:07better is they have not pursued the net

39:10zero suicide in this part of it with the

39:14same vigor that we have. So, they all

39:16have about a year's worth of diesel

39:18supply. We have a month's worth of

39:21diesel supply just over. And so this

39:23puts us in a completely different

39:25position. Andy Burnham is going to have

39:28to get on all fours and and get very

39:31very grateful with Donald Trump to get

39:32any concessions out of him. Maybe, you

39:36know, well, you know, it's an image that

39:38we'd all enjoy. Um but uh so in that

39:42situation um that's we would have to uh

39:47basically go crawling to the White House

39:49and no I don't know what Trump would

39:51demand but he does not strike me as

39:53someone who gives things away without

39:54asking for something in return. And so

39:56if Britain was to find a way to secure

39:59uh an exemption from these from this

40:02export ban which may well happen um then

40:06uh then we we will have to give up

40:08something very valuable in exchange. Now

40:10let's be let's come back to why this is

40:11all happening. This is obviously all a

40:13consequence of the Iran war. And what

40:18President Trump is trying to do is to

40:20amilarate some of the pain that that war

40:23is causing domestically. uh because you

40:26see that the you know with prices rising

40:28at the pump and don't forget diesel is

40:30obviously what what fuels all

40:31agriculture effectively. So uh a lot of

40:35the the American agricultural states and

40:38a lot of the American ordinary consumers

40:40gas prices are one of the key metrics

40:42for whether presidencies going well in

40:44the United States. Uh with the midterms

40:46looming this is not a good look. When we

40:48interviewed Senator Ted Cruz at the

40:51outset of this war, he said if this

40:52conflict is still ongoing at the time of

40:54the midterms, we have failed, I believe

40:57was his exact language, or something to

40:58that effect. The reality is they have

41:02failed. And what they're trying to do

41:03now is to get Europe to open up its

41:07reserves and take their reserves down to

41:09zero as quickly as possible to suppress

41:12diesel prices in order to help the

41:13Republicans win the midterms. Uh, and

41:16Britain is stuck in the middle because

41:18of net zero and the lunacy that we've

41:21had shutting down. France says we've got

41:23our biggest refineries down for for

41:25maintenance for 10 weeks, but we've shut

41:27down a whole number of refineries. And

41:30then yes, it's also true, by the way,

41:32that the war in Ukraine. Ironically,

41:35it's actually Ukraine's recent successes

41:37that are making this problem worse

41:38because one of the things the Ukrainians

41:41have been doing and very successfully is

41:43targeting Russia's refinery uh refining

41:46capacity with drones and missile strikes

41:49and they've been so effective at it that

41:51Russia a huge producer of oil and gas

41:55obviously which used to refine a

41:57significant portion of it itself is now

41:59importing petroleum products from

42:02countries like India because so much of

42:04its refining capacity has been damaged.

42:06So, it's a giant mess. A and President

42:10Trump will do whatever he believes is in

42:12the interests of the Republican party. I

42:15was going to say the American people,

42:16but in this instance, I think it's fair

42:17to say it's the Republican party and the

42:20consequence for Europe if he continues

42:22to press that will be absolutely

42:24disastrous. Europe is more resilient. We

42:27are absolutely screwed if this happens.

42:30>> And and the consequences are not just

42:32purely economic. I mean, when the fuel

42:35runs out, that's when the unrest starts.

42:37I mean, this is something and also when

42:39the just when the prices rocket is when

42:41the unrest starts. I mean, Alistister

42:42Campbell said that actually the biggest

42:44crisis he ever had to deal with during

42:46the new Labor years was not the fallout

42:48for 911. It wasn't the Iraq war, which

42:51he of course played his role in lying

42:52our way into. It was the 2000s fuel

42:55price protest where you had a bunch of

42:57lorry drivers blockading depots and

42:59basically bringing the country to a

43:00standstill. the NHS came within a like a

43:02hair's breath of running out of of fuel.

43:05And this is something which can readily

43:07happen. It's why you're seeing countries

43:09across the world suddenly trying to

43:10plate their kind of restive populations.

43:13And that's something that you're not

43:14just going to see in a developing

43:15country. You could easily see it in this

43:17country. And it's entirely, if not

43:19entirely, then largely self-inflicted.

43:21Obviously, we did have this sort of

43:24fantasy, this end of history fantasy

43:26that conflict was a thing of the past,

43:28that war was something that only really

43:29happened over there. it didn't really

43:31have knock-on effects for what happens

43:32at home. Obviously, the combination of

43:34Ukraine, Winston's favorite war, the war

43:37in Iran, and all the other ones have,

43:38you know, brought that crashing down

43:40around us. Um, but at the same time, you

43:42can make yourself more resilient against

43:44these kinds of things. I mean, there was

43:45a good piece in the Sunday Times about

43:46this. Um, we're currently, I think it's

43:48all of our of our road diesel accounts.

43:51We're importing 55% of that. Some of

43:52that from America, some from that from

43:54elsewhere. Um, it was as low as 14% in

43:56the early 2000s. Over that time, I think

43:58we've gone from nine refineries to four.

44:01Last year alone, we closed two

44:03refineries, which would account for 25%

44:06of our capacity to to refine uh oil. So,

44:10this is something which has been

44:12actively pursued by successive

44:14governments and has left us. Of course,

44:16international crises happen. We are

44:18dealing with global markets, but you

44:20leave yourself so much more exposed to

44:22this by the decisions that you make in

44:25this country. And it's the combination

44:26of the sort of net zero ideology at

44:27large as you've been saying Constantin

44:29and also this sort of just in time model

44:32of running your economy where you have

44:34very meager reserves because that's the

44:36way to because it's cheaper to do so

44:38effectively and everything's running

44:39fine most of the time and you know all

44:42it takes is a pandemic and a couple of

44:43wars to make you realize that that's

44:44probably a bad way to plan going

44:46forward. So look again at the risk of

44:48just echoing everything you've said.

44:50This is a real recipe for disaster and

44:52it's one that will show up I think not

44:54just in terms of price at the pump and

44:56things get very tough for people out

44:57there but potentially serious unrest as

45:00well if it's not gone on top of

45:02>> uh just to interject to this point.

45:03Venice AI says about 17% of the diesel

45:06used in the UK comes from the US KK. So

45:09it turns out neither of us is right.

45:11Anyway, moving on.

45:11>> Well, I would say I was directionally

45:13more accurate than you.

45:18Look, I don't I don't want to offend

45:19your loyalties to the Ayatollah, so I'm

45:21just going to make Britain.

45:25>> We had in the 80s 17 oil refineries.

45:28Sorry, 18 oil refineries and now we have

45:31four.

45:33>> This is this is about Britain and it's

45:36aka everything you said about net zero

45:37folly. the fact that we're not still

45:40properly not properly e doing ex oil

45:44expeditions into the into the North Sea

45:46and and still importing oil from the

45:49Norwegians from the same bloody fields

45:51that we own that are ours and this is

45:55sort of across the field there's some

45:57sort of various net zero follies that we

45:59should we should do a long conversation

46:01about uh one day but until we have

46:04energy security we're going to be a a

46:07failing country in this new world order.

46:11>> Yeah. Well, look, you make a good point

46:13and without standing up for the great

46:15Ayatollah, I think it's fair to say that

46:18the UK has pursued suicidal policy that

46:21we've all spoken about in this area. Uh

46:24not least because we do have access to

46:26our own oil and gas, which we should be

46:28producing as quickly as we can. In

46:30addition to

46:32>> building fracking is still illegal.

46:34>> Mhm. Uh and and what we should also have

46:36been have been doing there is of course

46:37that famous clip of Nick Kle saying

46:39about 15 years ago that we shouldn't

46:41build nuclear reactors because it would

46:42take 15 years. Here we are 15 years with

46:45no nuclear reactors, right? Um all of

46:48those things should have been done. That

46:51does not take away from the fact that

46:53this global crisis is a result of the

46:57war in Iran and President Trump's ban or

47:00potential ban that is being muted and

47:02his attempts to get Europeans to run

47:04down their reserves uh to lower diesel

47:07and gas prices for American consumers

47:10effectively is his way of trying to

47:13mitigate the consequences of this

47:15conflict. Now Tom and you are absolutely

47:18right. I mean, how these morons did not

47:21learn the lessons of the pandemic. To

47:23me, the the biggest lesson of the

47:24pandemic, yeah, sure, they covered up

47:25the fact that the virus was originated

47:27in a lab in China, almost certainly

47:30through gain of functional research,

47:31almost certainly sponsored by Western uh

47:35Western institutions. Fine. Okay, you

47:37cover that up

47:39and Chinese. Okay, fine. But to me, you

47:42know, you don't necessarily control that

47:44exactly. What we did control is the

47:47sudden realization which these people,

47:49you know, just randomly had in this

47:51moment that when push comes to shove,

47:54surprise surprise, countries are going

47:55to try and do what's in their national

47:57interest. Now, you can blame President

47:59Trump or you can blame the Chinese or

48:01whatever. The reality is if you don't

48:03produce your own steel, if you don't

48:05produce your own medication, if you

48:06don't produce your own oil and gas, if

48:08you don't produce your own energy, if

48:09you don't grow your own food, you are

48:11going to be vulnerable. And I think in

48:14the last

48:15>> I don't know five or six years we could

48:17all see that the world has changed right

48:20I mean look look at the the number of

48:22wars that are going on that are

48:23affecting all food fertilizer

48:25agriculture oil gas all of these things

48:28how the decision has not been made to do

48:31a complete handbreak turn and go oh my

48:34god we have been so foolish fine okay

48:36we've made mistakes let's ramp up our

48:38production capacity let's ramp up our

48:40refining capacity by the way these

48:42things create jobs. You know, these

48:44things create economic growth, something

48:45we seem to be short on at the moment.

48:47Um, if we were actually doing all of

48:50that, we'd be ticking a lot of the boxes

48:53that our country needs. But instead, you

48:56just have Ed Militwa just pursuing all

48:59of this stuff, first as energy

49:00secretary, now as foreign secretary, and

49:02we've got this continuous ideology that

49:05has absolutely no relation to reality.

49:08And there doesn't seem to be any change.

49:10But you know that image of Andy Burnham

49:12on all fours in the Oval Office will

49:14give me the moral satisfaction that

49:16trumps all of that.

49:19>> But again, you use the word ideology and

49:21this is what it comes back to. It is an

49:22ideology because

49:26you look at what is the inevitable

49:28outcome of these set of beliefs and it's

49:32disastrous. If you look at the bottom

49:34line and go, is it going to make the

49:38lives of people better,

49:41once you get down to it, it just simply

49:43isn't. It's going to make us weaker.

49:45It's going to make us more vulnerable.

49:47It's going to mean that other countries

49:49are going to be able to bully us far

49:50more effectively, which is what the

49:53Americans and Donald Trump is doing.

49:55They're bullying us and we simply can't

49:57stand up to them because we've got

50:00basically over a month of of diesel in

50:05in in how can I put it in the back

50:08pocket. So what what can we do apart

50:10from go over there you know get on all

50:13fours and go give it to me daddy

50:16>> which is the position we're in.

50:18>> I think if if anyone should do that job

50:21Andy Bernham is incredibly well placed

50:23to do it. I hope he does. I thought you

50:24were going to say me, mate. So, thanks

50:26for that.

50:26>> No, no, I think Andy Bernham should do

50:29it. I'm up for it. Uh he he he's he's

50:32got the soft touch to to handle it. Uh

50:35with with all of that said, uh speaking

50:37of the great Ayatollah Winston, it turns

50:39out he's been up to a few a few things

50:41in our backyard. Tell us about that.

50:44>> Yes, this it's a bit of a tragic comedy

50:47this and we have the film Four Lions

50:50play out in real life. rubber dingy

50:54rapids and all. So, this is last

50:57weekend. I mean, it's it's it's

50:58absolutely you're gonna hear it and you

51:01can't sit satarize this. It's it's it's

51:04it starts with one of a bunch of guys

51:10going in white vans to RAF Fairford,

51:13which has been used during the Iran war

51:15for American

51:17um uh air forces uh to bomb Iran. And

51:21these men, five of whom have now been

51:24arrested, but there have been reports of

51:25up to eight or 10 by a local witness.

51:28Here you can see this in this asset. You

51:30can see I think it's three or four of

51:33the lads who have been arrested.

51:35One of them called the police on

51:38themselves

51:40about midnight last Saturday before like

51:44an hour later, a local female farmer

51:48also reported she saw these white vans

51:52with these lads then scurrying off into

51:54the into the forest to hide.

51:58The police don't clear the area until

52:018:00 in the morning.

52:03the the thing slowly escalates and

52:05escalates. It turns out that these are

52:07four guys from London. They've been they

52:10get arrested. Trump comes out and uh as

52:14well as Rubio saying it's Iranbacked.

52:18Burnham also says it seems to be

52:20Iranbacked. This is terri it seems to be

52:23a terror plot to to to do something at

52:25RAF Fairford.

52:28Later in the week, there is actually an

52:30Iranian Brit who is arrested

52:33on links to this this thing. And it

52:37turns out that before the plot,

52:39Netanyanu, Benjamin Netanyahu had just

52:42given warning that this was going to

52:44happen before he and Israel were then

52:48sanctioned by Ed Milliband. So this is

52:50kind of this tiny thing which is kind of

52:52a joke in our country has become a sort

52:55of geopolitical joke. And it's a joke

52:56because these guys have all been given

52:59bail. So we have these terrorists who

53:03the president of the United States, the

53:05secretary of state, various other

53:08partners in in the world have said these

53:10are Iranians. Our prime minister says

53:12they are it's an Iranian based terror

53:14plot. But now they're sort of free to

53:15knock about. Okay. They live in

53:16Westminster. My studios in Westminster.

53:18So what's going on here? the double. The

53:22reason why this has actually been

53:23offensive to a lot of people is because

53:25at the same time Danny Tommo, who was

53:30arrested

53:31last week, was this week

53:35charged for

53:39criminal damage to a a dinghy. So there

53:42you got your rubber dingy rapids. The

53:44dinghy as far as I can can make out

53:47either belongs to one of the illegal

53:48immigrants or belongs to one of the

53:52illegal immigrant smugglers. His other

53:53charges that he didn't give over his pin

53:55code. But the real offensive thing is

53:58he's not been given bail. So he's going

54:00to have to wait until March for his

54:02court case. So this is not it's kind of

54:06everything in one story for me. It's

54:08two-tier justice. It's two-tier Britain.

54:11It is the idea that we don't know

54:14whether they're Islamists exactly or

54:16whether they're, you know, uh, foreign

54:19nation and and there's no huge point in

54:21speculating, but either way or whichever

54:23way it is, we should be making as

54:25hostile an environment as possible for

54:27people doing these sort of criminal

54:29acts. We're not. We're a joke country.

54:32Anyway, I I've been extremely triggered

54:34by this this whole story. And if you

54:36think I've got it wrong, I'm all is.

54:40I was gonna say, but

54:42>> No, go ahead.

54:43>> Go for it, Tom. No, you go for it, mate.

54:45I was just going to take the piss out of

54:46Winston. I think I've done that enough

54:47this episode. You go.

54:49>> There'll be other opportunities. Um, no,

54:51I think this whole thing has been an

54:53absolute fast. Like, it can't work out

54:55whether it's a episode of Homeland or

54:56like an Eling comedy, this whole thing

54:58as we've been going through it. Um, the

55:00fact that it seemed to have taken just a

55:02pluckucky farmer returning home from a

55:05party at 1:00 in the morning who spotted

55:07these men in Balaclavas who then dashed

55:10into the woods. The fact that she was

55:12the one who raises the alarm is farical.

55:14I mean, this RAF base, it's for all

55:16intents and purposes like a US Air Force

55:18base and has been for a very long time.

55:20The fact that it was that easy to get

55:21that close. They knew that an attack was

55:23coming. There's stories in the area of

55:25people being stopped by American

55:26military police um and checked on the

55:28roads in the days running up to this.

55:30Clearly, they were nervy something was

55:31going to happen. By didn't of trying to

55:33protect themselves against that, they

55:35just did things like put a tractor in

55:37front of one of the gates. You would

55:38have thought it was slightly more

55:39sophisticated than that in terms of how

55:40they might defend themselves, but that's

55:42going on.

55:43>> And then don't mess with us.

55:46>> We've got Exactly. You'll struggle to

55:48drive through there, son. I mean, that

55:49is just

55:50>> Well, we've got tractors that have run

55:52out of diesel and have ever been

55:53abandoned in front of the gate.

55:55>> Yeah. They were driving it up and then

55:57it ran out helpfully in front of the

55:59gate. But um and then this happens and

56:02then you're expected to believe that um

56:05the story has shifted so many times and

56:07we were just constantly being told off

56:08for daring to speculate about it. But

56:10you thought, you know, clearly there is

56:12something untowards going on here.

56:13whether or not this is as Nigel Farage

56:16has suggested some kind of dummy run for

56:17something more serious. Whether or not

56:19this is something that you're seeing the

56:20Iranians doing much more increasingly,

56:22which is that rather than this being

56:24someone who's been dispatched from

56:25Tehran to go and build up a cell and do

56:28something that you just sort of on the

56:29dark web find kind of local petty

56:31criminals and pay them money to do

56:33something even if they're not entirely

56:34sure what it's for and what the actual

56:37point is. All of these questions are

56:39important, but like for a while we were

56:40expected to believe that we shouldn't

56:42speculate and that maybe it was just a

56:43stag do that got out of hand or

56:45something. I mean it was absolutely

56:46absurd and that that's that response now

56:48that the government always have which is

56:51do not speculate. This has nothing to do

56:53with trying to protect any

56:54investigation. This is nothing to do

56:56with trying to make sure things are done

56:57in the right way. It's just a way of

56:58telling people to shut up and it's not

57:00speculate when the fact scaring you face

57:03>> because they say don't speculate on this

57:06but when it's Danny Tommo Burnham is

57:08prepared to say oh yeah he's definitely

57:09racist.

57:10>> So it's it's it's always the same bloody

57:13story. It's like don't speculate about

57:15what's going on at Axel Ruda Cabana and

57:17then Kisama comes out and goes oh yeah

57:19everyone protesting this is far right.

57:21So you're speculating. It's always the

57:23speculation is one way. It's two-tier

57:25speculation. It's and it's and it's it's

57:28this is why I get so irritated by this.

57:30It's it's through every part of our

57:31society this two-tier system.

57:33>> Mhm.

57:34>> Well, and it's not just two-tier

57:35speculation. It's two-tier commentary.

57:38So, for example, Shabbana Mammud, the

57:40home secretary, will go on TV and say,

57:43"We will deal with the DOA protesters to

57:46the fullest extent of the law." When

57:48asked about other cases, she will say,

57:50"We don't comment on individual cases."

57:52Right?

57:54There there's so much of this going on,

57:56you almost get tired of pointing out the

57:58hypocrisy.

58:00>> Yeah. And I think you when you say you

58:02get tired of pointing out the hypocrisy,

58:04actually that's a really profound point

58:06because when something is just so

58:10obvious and you see it wherever you go

58:13and you point it out and you say, "What

58:15about this and what about that and what

58:17about this and what about that?"

58:19Eventually, what it happens is you

58:22become demoralized because what is

58:25becoming more and more obvious to you is

58:27you're living in a society where there's

58:30one set of rules for one people and

58:32there's another set for others. And I

58:36don't remember that being the case in

58:39our society. Not in my lifetime. Now,

58:41you could use certain examples and you

58:44know there was racism. there was quite

58:46severe racism particularly in the 80s

58:49and the 70s when I was grow up there was

58:50an unfairness but we addressed that we

58:52talked about that but with what's

58:56happening now there just seems to be a

58:59disinterest in it which

59:02I find baffling because what that means

59:05is that we are going to erode the

59:08respect for the rule of law and justice

59:11and the justice system in this country

59:14and what people seem to fail to realize

59:16is all of these things they're done

59:19because

59:21we agree to that this works. We agree

59:24that this system, this culture, and this

59:27society works for us, but it seems like

59:30we're getting to a place where we don't

59:34think it works for us. And that is

59:37really, really, really dangerous. And

59:39again, this to me is just another

59:42example of of this type of behavior

59:45really.

59:47>> Well, don't worry, Francis. The good

59:49thing is uh the Green Party have come up

59:51with a way of dealing with all of these

59:53challenges. Uh which Tom, you've written

59:55an article in the Telegraph this week

59:57about uh the solution is to ban words.

1:00:00Tell us more about this.

1:00:05>> Yes, surprise surprise. The Greens have

1:00:07still completely lost it. where woke

1:00:09matters are concerned and this inclusive

1:00:11language guide is yet another example.

1:00:14So this ahead of their conference which

1:00:15is getting underway in Brighton and the

1:00:17Telegraph got their hands on this guide

1:00:19which points out to the members of the

1:00:22Green Party that there are certain words

1:00:23that they should avoid. Not talk about

1:00:25the N word. We're not talking about

1:00:26various slurs although I suppose various

1:00:27anti-semitic slurs they probably could

1:00:29be do with being told not to use quite

1:00:31so openly in WhatsApp groups and whatnot

1:00:32but it's words like mother and father um

1:00:35elderly which is quite a new one to me.

1:00:38Uh, homosexual is also out because it's

1:00:41insufficiently inclusive of non-binary

1:00:43people, the people who identify as

1:00:44plurals and all that. Uh, that's

1:00:47>> what can we say instead? Can we say

1:00:49benders?

1:00:51>> I exactly benders, shirt lifters. I

1:00:54presumably that's fine. You get more

1:00:56with it. Maybe maybe that's way

1:00:57>> that's more inclusive.

1:00:59>> Winston, I am surprised at the offensive

1:01:01language you're choosing to use in this

1:01:03instance given that Yuki yourself came

1:01:04out as non-binary on Brexit, mate.

1:01:11spoiling the battle is basically trans.

1:01:13Let's be honest, right?

1:01:16>> Exactly. It is. It is. So, it's um I

1:01:19can't you I'm trying to think of a slur

1:01:20we could use for Winston's fence sitting

1:01:23on that particular question, but no,

1:01:24it's uh this is I mean obviously it's

1:01:26nuts. Everyone knows that. A funny

1:01:28detail is that they've also included the

1:01:30words nutter and lunatic as things that

1:01:32you shouldn't say, which as you rightly

1:01:34pointed out, Constance, is just robbing

1:01:35us of our words that we can use to

1:01:37describe them. Presumably, they're

1:01:38worried about alienating the nutter or

1:01:40lunatic communities. But if you look at

1:01:42the Green Party these days and the kind

1:01:43of island of misfit toys that it has

1:01:45become under Zach Plansy's leadership, I

1:01:47don't think you should be worried about

1:01:48alienating those people. The thing

1:01:51that's striking a product, it's two

1:01:52things to me. One of which is that we

1:01:54have a lot of in recent years we were

1:01:56tempted to believe that woke was over or

1:01:58at least that it had been pushed back

1:02:00sufficiently to that even left-wing

1:02:01parties knew that it wasn't a good idea

1:02:02to go down this road. This is another

1:02:04example amongst many of that that not

1:02:06being the case. There are whole sections

1:02:07of progressive politics. We'll talk

1:02:09about the Labour party as well in a

1:02:10second because they've come out with

1:02:10some howlers this week which are

1:02:12entirely untouched by the sort of return

1:02:15to common sense that must much of the

1:02:16rest of society were enjoying. They're

1:02:18like this kind of Amazonian tribe that

1:02:20has been undisturbed for its entire

1:02:21existence or like a you know the

1:02:23proverbial Japanese soldier in the

1:02:25jungle with his pronoun badge on still

1:02:27like they just haven't noticed. The

1:02:28world has moved on but they haven't. So

1:02:29I guess that's an example of this. The

1:02:31other thing where the Green Party is

1:02:32concerned is not only is woke not dead,

1:02:34it's also gotten quite a lot darker. So

1:02:38they've kept all of this kind of fussy

1:02:40speech policing which was the sort of

1:02:43embarrassing student union stick but

1:02:45then they've bolted onto it the Islamist

1:02:48apologism the Israelophobia

1:02:51the going by the people who have washed

1:02:52up in their membership and even some of

1:02:54their parliamentary candidates outright

1:02:56anti-semitism you know the woke thing to

1:02:58chant from a festival stage a few years

1:02:59ago was trans women are women now it's

1:03:01death death to the IDF like in the space

1:03:03of quite a short amount of time not only

1:03:05has woke not gone away it's mutated into

1:03:07something much more explicitly sort of

1:03:09thirdworldist

1:03:11quite grim and not only is it just

1:03:14extending this kind of paternalistic

1:03:16posture towards it like favored

1:03:17minorities it's also treating those

1:03:19disfavored minorities i.e

1:03:20Jews with a level of sort of sulfurous

1:03:23scorn that you thought had disappeared

1:03:25from British politics frankly. So it is

1:03:27a it is a slightly silly example but I

1:03:30think it's um of a probably a way into

1:03:32this whole question of you know woke one

1:03:35woke two as some people talk about it

1:03:36and if it ever really went away to begin

1:03:38with really

1:03:39>> well yeah you see this now I don't know

1:03:41if you saw this yesterday so Bravman was

1:03:44on question time and it feels like there

1:03:47was a moment when just calling everyone

1:03:49racist for expressing an opinion

1:03:51>> that kind of stopped for a while and I

1:03:54think that was maybe the moment in which

1:03:55we were all like, oh, woke is on the

1:03:59decline. But it has now come back and

1:04:02now you've got the basically the

1:04:03spectacle of a bunch of white people

1:04:06calling a brown woman in swell bra. And

1:04:08these white people have spent the last

1:04:0910 years saying we must listen to ethnic

1:04:11minorities when they speak and white

1:04:12people need to shut up. Now there's a

1:04:14bunch of white people basically doing a

1:04:16strugg struggle session with a British

1:04:18Asian woman and calling everything she

1:04:20says racist cuz she says she's not

1:04:22English. And he just feels like this

1:04:25whole thing is back with a vengeance.

1:04:29>> Yeah, I think we should go. You you you

1:04:32go for it. You go for it, Winston. And

1:04:34then

1:04:35>> I remembered in school uh sorry, not in

1:04:38school, in uh when I was still with the

1:04:40band with Mumford, being in a band

1:04:42meeting, and I said, "Let's brainstorm

1:04:45this." And someone said, "Uh uh uh mind

1:04:48shower. You can't say brainstorm. That's

1:04:50a microaggression." And because it's

1:04:53offense it's offensive to uh um people

1:04:55with uh who have um what's those attacks

1:04:59where you

1:05:00>> Yeah. No, I mean um epileptics.

1:05:03>> Yeah.

1:05:04>> Yeah. Um I was just in the States and

1:05:08there's this story that's been going

1:05:10wild there about this lesbian bar in

1:05:12Massachusetts.

1:05:13>> It was it was totally failing as a bar.

1:05:16The woman who one of the lesbians who

1:05:19started it had to sleep in her truck

1:05:21because she couldn't afford to keep the

1:05:22thing going. Her partners had quit. One

1:05:24of them to be was to become a clown, the

1:05:27other to become a drag queen. And then

1:05:29they wanted to have one day of the week

1:05:31where they didn't have to wear a mask.

1:05:34So they wanted to do Saturdays, but on

1:05:36Saturdays we don't have to wear a mask,

1:05:38which then just became this huge

1:05:43uh uh drama between them with the owner

1:05:48being accused of racism for crying in

1:05:50the Zoom meeting and for censing it and

1:05:52making it about her. Someone suggested

1:05:54they put Lady Gaga on. They said, "No,

1:05:56no, Lady Gaga's canceled. She's a

1:05:58Zionist." And it's escalated so far now

1:06:00that Hollywood want to make a movie

1:06:02about it. But watching that story, I was

1:06:03thinking AOC said woke one was crazy.

1:06:07Well, they've skipped two and three and

1:06:08they've just gone straight to four. This

1:06:10is it's not gone anywhere. These people,

1:06:13they've dug in their heels. They've just

1:06:14got new faces. And something's getting

1:06:16quite sophisticated.

1:06:17>> You know, Manny is pretty sophisticated.

1:06:19This woke for this uh there's this new

1:06:22guy out in Michigan as well. And there

1:06:25there there's a there's a silly version

1:06:27which is Zach Palansky and the Green

1:06:29Party, but there's an intelligent

1:06:31version there as well which which is

1:06:33more robust and a lot more of a threat.

1:06:37>> Well, absolutely. And because

1:06:40wokeism is a type it's extremism and a

1:06:44lot of ex you can be a person who is

1:06:47extreme but that doesn't mean you're

1:06:49unintelligent. It's a temperament. There

1:06:52are people who are highly intelligent

1:06:53extremists just like there are people

1:06:55who are not very bright and quite

1:06:57moderate. So the people you you all

1:07:01should be worried about are the people

1:07:02who are highly intelligent and have that

1:07:05temperament or that worldview or that

1:07:07outlook.

1:07:08>> Well then let's stop talking about Zack

1:07:09Palansky. We shouldn't worry about

1:07:11>> Yeah. Well, I don't actually want to

1:07:13stop talking about Zack Palansky because

1:07:14I think something very interesting is

1:07:16happening with Zack Palansky in that he

1:07:19is running in the bi-election in St.

1:07:22Pancress and Hobburn bi-election to be

1:07:25precise to be which was Karma's former

1:07:29seat to be a MP in our parliament and

1:07:33he's running against Labor and to me

1:07:37this is a litmus test for the Greens.

1:07:39Burnham has come in. He has absolutely

1:07:44given the Greens a body blow. And this,

1:07:46like I said, this is a real test for the

1:07:48Greens. If they're going to do anything,

1:07:51if they had their brief moment

1:07:53>> in 2025 and early 2026,

1:07:57or was that a flourish, a flash in the

1:07:59pan, and politically their day in the

1:08:02sun is over? We're going to see.

1:08:04>> We are indeed. Frankie Frankie seeing

1:08:08what's happening. Oh, sorry.

1:08:10>> No, no, no. Go ahead. I was going to I

1:08:11was going to bring in the uh the

1:08:13Labradors, but we can

1:08:15>> Oh, we'll definitely get to that. But

1:08:16just on the bi-election. So,

1:08:18>> they the Labour are running a hijabi

1:08:21girl of Somali refugee heritage

1:08:24background. So, they're trying to

1:08:26outflank the green. So, it is actually

1:08:28worth keeping an eye on this. And it's

1:08:30it's a big part of Bernham's re shifting

1:08:34and and repositioning of the Labour

1:08:37party. And it it it might if Zach

1:08:39Palansky can't win that seat, it we

1:08:41might actually see the kind of end of

1:08:43this Green Party moment that they had.

1:08:46>> It could be a bit of a high water. We

1:08:48hope.

1:08:49>> But I I suppose looking at Labour

1:08:50conference this week though, which where

1:08:51the Labradors come in, it's clear that

1:08:54this tendency still is very much in

1:08:56presence there. I think we've got this

1:08:57clip of this is the Labour nature

1:09:00minister who was speaking at a fringe

1:09:02meeting and had some pretty striking

1:09:05things to say about the countryside and

1:09:07fascism. I think we've got that

1:09:08somewhere for us to all enjoy.

1:09:10>> I do believe that the next election is

1:09:12going to be fought on a battle line of

1:09:13nature and rural affairs and it'll be

1:09:16the far right deciding and determining

1:09:17what that looks like and it will be a

1:09:19vision a nostalgic Britain of Brit

1:09:21nostalgic vision of Britain that never

1:09:22really existed. It'll be that warm ale,

1:09:25a black Labrador by your feet in a pub

1:09:27that doesn't exist. And it'll be a very

1:09:29it'll be with with symbolism and the fox

1:09:31hunting all around them. And it'll be a

1:09:32very far right nostalgic vision of

1:09:34Britain that we don't want to have.

1:09:36Never really existed.

1:09:40>> There we go. This is what they talking

1:09:41about. Well, can I just say black labs

1:09:44matter and this is black lab denial.

1:09:46Black Labradors are real. They exist.

1:09:49They have rights and their and their

1:09:51values. Um, and and by the way, I should

1:09:54say for our American viewers, a fringe

1:09:56meeting of a party conference is not

1:09:58where you get all the lunatics in your

1:10:01party to get together and say the most

1:10:02stupid things they can think of. It's

1:10:04just like a side meeting at the

1:10:06conference. And uh, it's interesting.

1:10:07She says the next election will be

1:10:09fought on rural affairs, which seems to

1:10:11me quite a stretch in and of itself. But

1:10:13the idea that pubs, Labradors, and warm

1:10:16ale never existed, that is quite

1:10:18something.

1:10:20It's I don't know about you guys, I'm

1:10:22struck by how much this has cut through

1:10:23as well. Like it feels like the more

1:10:25rural version of Emily Thornbury's tweet

1:10:27from the Rockchester and bi-election

1:10:29with the with the England flag

1:10:31>> outside of the semi- detached house with

1:10:33the white van outside this kind of

1:10:34sneering attitude towards white

1:10:36working-class patriotism. This feels

1:10:37like the equivalent with the kind of

1:10:39rural life which um people from those

1:10:42communities are obviously pretty

1:10:43affronted by the idea that the way in

1:10:46which that they go about things, the in

1:10:47which people in rural England have been

1:10:49going about things for a very long time.

1:10:50That sense of continuity which exists

1:10:51there which certainly doesn't exist in

1:10:53many of our towns and cities anymore is

1:10:56something which is nefarious,

1:10:57suspicious, neoascistic. It's it's

1:11:00particularly funny because this nature

1:11:02minister, Jenny Redell Carpenter, she's

1:11:04from rural Suffukk. Um that it didn't

1:11:07take long for the tabloids to dig up

1:11:09pictures of her enjoying pints of ale in

1:11:12country pubs with a dog. So there's this

1:11:14element of this which is just sheer

1:11:16performance, I think. But at the same

1:11:18time, it does tap into this strain which

1:11:20really exists in the Labour party at the

1:11:21moment that DER is currently as a matter

1:11:24of government policy thinks that the

1:11:26countryside is too white. That's not

1:11:27just like a kind of BBC news talking

1:11:29point. They've put out they've

1:11:31commissioned reports from various

1:11:32organizations saying what can we

1:11:33possibly do to make the countryside less

1:11:35hostile to people from ethnic minority

1:11:38backgrounds because and the underlying

1:11:40assumption there being that the problem

1:11:41with the countryside is it's full of

1:11:42English people doing English things and

1:11:44we got to do something about it. Um so

1:11:46this is not just a a Freud you know some

1:11:48kind of slip or some kind of brain fart.

1:11:51is a kind of tendency which exists and

1:11:52you think that whilst me myself I'm sort

1:11:54of an inveterate town who never really

1:11:56lived outside of the the city or the

1:11:58suburbs this is still something which

1:12:00people who live in the countryside if

1:12:02you know if you grew up in rural Surrey

1:12:03or rural Hampshire or whatever that

1:12:05sense of kind of not only just liking it

1:12:08for the landscape and because of its

1:12:09beautiful but the sense that there's a

1:12:10kind of connection to a history and a

1:12:12tradition you know the English tradition

1:12:14of pastoral poetry and the rural and all

1:12:16of that is quite important to people but

1:12:18I think even increasingly because of the

1:12:19way things are going a south in many of

1:12:21our cities. Even people who people

1:12:24wanting to escape to the countryside or

1:12:25liking the fact that it's there because

1:12:27it's it's a reminder that um some kind

1:12:30of quintessential Englishness persists.

1:12:33So to see that kind of painted as

1:12:34something that is yeah proton Nazi. I

1:12:37you know I was kind of surprised by how

1:12:40out there it was if I'm honest.

1:12:45>> It's a total mask slip. I think that

1:12:47this this ideology, sure it's she's not

1:12:50sort of hugely prominent, but this is a

1:12:52wide widely held view and they this is

1:12:55it's a classic far-left view and that is

1:12:57now a part of the Labour party. I was

1:12:59saying in the last bit that uh we've

1:13:01seen the end of the Green Party. We're

1:13:02not seeing the end of the ideology. It's

1:13:04just getting swallowed up into the Labor

1:13:05Party. These people hate us and I'm I I

1:13:08resent that they they have any power and

1:13:10they they they have direct they choose

1:13:12the direction of this country.

1:13:14Why why govern over a country if you if

1:13:16you hate it?

1:13:18>> Yeah.

1:13:19>> Well, so you can destroy

1:13:21remaking

1:13:23your image. But this does feel like sort

1:13:25of agents of Saraman destroying the

1:13:27Shire while claiming it never existed in

1:13:29the first place. Cuz when I think of

1:13:32England and particularly rural England,

1:13:34I mean that's kind of what the Shire is

1:13:36based on. It's a it's a people living in

1:13:38a peaceful and somewhat isolated and

1:13:40perhaps somewhat inward-looking life,

1:13:42but nonetheless, the comforts that come

1:13:44with that. Um, and one thing you didn't

1:13:47mention there, Tom, that I think as

1:13:49someone who does live outside of the big

1:13:51cities and by choice that people do

1:13:54enjoy outside of the cities in a way

1:13:56that people who do live in them don't

1:13:58quite have at all is community. And the

1:14:02sense that there is a pub that everyone

1:14:04in the village goes to, that's where

1:14:07everyone has a drink, they meet, etc.

1:14:10>> Exactly.

1:14:11>> And and and the thing is that actually

1:14:14is something that is incredibly

1:14:15valuable. Um and uh is not available in

1:14:19the cities and and and so the people who

1:14:21live in these transient non-communities

1:14:24in the centers of towns, they not only

1:14:26don't appreciate it, but to them it's a

1:14:28it's an inherently suspicious thing. M

1:14:31that you know this is what these these

1:14:33people get together and they they know

1:14:35each other and and in the knowing of

1:14:37each other instead of moving flat every

1:14:393 months and not knowing their neighbors

1:14:41that's when the darkness sets in right

1:14:44that's their idea um and that's why you

1:14:47know they clearly just hate that part of

1:14:49the country as Winston says anyway

1:14:52ladies and gentlemen what an uplifting

1:14:54episode it has been yet again on off the

1:14:56fence this week we are Francis and I are

1:14:59back tomorrow with Andrew Neil we back

1:15:00with the guys next Friday for Off the

1:15:03Fence again. We will see you then.