Full transcript
0:00were filling a CEO role six months ago
0:02in New York City. I won't say what or
0:04company or anything like I talked to two
0:06of the CEO candidates who one of their
0:10questions for us when it got to me
0:12because I was kind of doing some final
0:13vetting was well is this remote work or
0:16not? This is the CEO. I'm like what kind
0:20of question is that? And really that's
0:21up to you. I I you know that's almost
0:23disqualifies you to even ask that silly
0:25question.
0:31Good morning, HR. I'm Mike Coffee,
0:33president of Imperative, Bulletproof
0:35Background Checks with Fast and Friendly
0:37Service, and this is the podcast where I
0:39talk to business leaders about bringing
0:41people together to create value for all
0:43shareholders. I'm joined today by Joe
0:46Fraudchum. Joe is president of the
0:48National Talent Solutions Firm, CMP. Joe
0:52has over two decades of consulting
0:54experience and before that served as
0:55senior vice president of human resources
0:57at tenant healthcare. Joe will be
1:00presenting at the Fort Worth HR
1:02Strategic Mindset Conference on
1:04September 12th and you can learn more
1:06about that conference at fwhr.org.
1:09Welcome to Good Morning HR Joe.
1:11>> Hey, it's great to be here Mr. Coffee as
1:13I've learned to call you. So, you know,
1:16good to have a a little late in the
1:17afternoon for Mr. Coffee, but here we
1:19are nonetheless.
1:19>> I'll keep you up all night. So there you
1:21go.
1:23So at CMP, y'all just released your
1:25fourth annual national pulse check on
1:28the seauite state of mind. So let's
1:31start by just telling listeners what the
1:33pulse check is and why does CMP do that?
1:36Everybody focuses on frontline
1:38well-being and state of mind. What do
1:41you learn from looking at the seauite?
1:43>> Oh, absolutely. Well, why do we do it?
1:45Uh really good question. We are a talent
1:47solutions firm. We've been around for 25
1:49years with over 350 global and national
1:53clients. And we're constantly looked at
1:55and asked for kind of advice, insight,
1:58what are some emerging trends when it
1:59comes to talent and we want to make sure
2:01that we're providing unique and insight
2:03in areas that are maybe underststudied
2:05and underappreciated. You're absolutely
2:07right. There's a lot of research and
2:09focus appre and and justifiably so
2:11around engagement where they look at the
2:14masses you know across the organization
2:17uniquely and surprisingly there's very
2:18little done to study the mind frame the
2:21attitude the engagement even the mental
2:23health of the seauite u maybe because
2:25it's so inaccessible or seemingly
2:27inaccessible or whatever maybe we make
2:30assumptions around their mental health
2:32so we've made that one of our pulse
2:34check focus areas on an annual basis
2:37And it's been very illuminating actually
2:39to to understand how it's evolved, how
2:41it's changed, what things have become
2:42normalized. And you're right, we came
2:44out with our fourth annual one earlier
2:46this year for 2025 which I think was
2:49very illuminating relative to kind of
2:51the general attitude and perceptions of
2:53the seauite.
2:54>> So you mentioned wellbeing. So let's
2:56start with that mental health that
2:57executive well-being idea. Um because I
3:01think you know uneasy is the head that
3:03wears the crown but I don't think that
3:05necessarily especially in pop culture
3:07and pop media there's a lot of attention
3:10to that. It's mostly about these you
3:11know these rich fat cats you know
3:13grinding the poor workers away. So one
3:16of the statistics that there's a pair of
3:18statistics that that jumped out at me
3:20when I was going through it is 91% of
3:23the seauite folks who were in your
3:24sample said they're managing their own
3:27well-being pretty well. But then at the
3:29same time, 49% almost half of them said
3:32that they would consider leaving their
3:34current role to improve their
3:37well-being. So they feel like they're
3:39doing a good job, but they would still
3:42consider leaving and, you know, half of
3:44them would consider leaving. So that
3:46tells me there's there's still a gap
3:47between maybe their expectation and, you
3:50know, and maybe they feel like they're
3:51doing too much of the lifting for their,
3:53you know, to manage themselves. But what
3:55how do you how do you reconcile those
3:57two numbers and what do you think the
3:58gap is that organizations need to think
4:00about? Oh, I a couple of things. This
4:03whole idea of mental health and even the
4:05conversation around mental health has
4:06become very normalized. You know, at 10
4:08years ago, you would not have gotten
4:10those kind of response sets. I don't
4:12think you would have gotten honesty. Uh
4:13I think people would shied away from
4:14even answering a question set like we
4:17ask now for the seauite. We have to even
4:19nowadays share anonymity because people
4:21are going to be very at the seauite
4:23level especially in public companies or
4:25if there's any kind of ownership
4:26oversight at the private equity level
4:27they're going to be very very um they'll
4:30want to position themselves as healthy
4:32well-being people right who who have all
4:34the stewardship over off the hundreds of
4:36millions if not billions of dollars of
4:38capital investment etc having said that
4:42u that dissonance I think is is
4:44explainable one is they see the
4:46importance of mental health and managing
4:48resilience and managing stress. Stress
4:51never informs good decision-making. And
4:53I think most executives know that now.
4:55And I think there was this can I say
4:57come to Jesus. There was this kind of
4:59normalizing and and an awareness of the
5:02importance of mental health and stress
5:04management as we went through COVID
5:06collectively and together. I mean, it's
5:08interesting. We have 15 or 16 executive
5:11coaches. All they do is work with
5:12executives at CMP as part of that part
5:14of our practice. on a quarterly basis
5:17I'll meet with them and we'll talk about
5:18what are the common issues you're
5:20dealing with and focused on in your
5:22coaching work with these executives and
5:25always you know before co it was you
5:28know having fierce conversations driving
5:30accountability delegation since co I'd
5:33say the last five and a half years one
5:35has been stress management uh relegating
5:38emotions managing perspective through
5:40difficult times it's changed drastically
5:44to this deep appreci appreciation of
5:46mental health and all the different
5:47variations derivations of it. I think
5:50that's been a seat change for us and as
5:53a result people are taking it very
5:55seriously at the seauite they're
5:56expected to and 90 plus% are saying yeah
5:58I'm doing that but if it ever got to a
6:01point where I couldn't manage my mental
6:05health not only would I do it for
6:06personal reasons I don't think I should
6:08be in the role uh I think I'd make
6:11stress induced decisions that would be
6:13bad for our stakeholders if I continue
6:15to be in a role that you know um caused
6:18so much stress that I wasn't able to
6:20manage my mental health. So, you're
6:22right. The roughly half any way you ask
6:25it would say, "Yeah, I'd exit. I would
6:27exit if I I couldn't manage my mental
6:29health." But right now, I pretty much
6:30am. That's at least how I drive those
6:33two questions. So from a board
6:35perspective or managing partners uh
6:38perspective
6:40what drives uh the seauite mental health
6:45you know how do you design the the
6:46environment the roles so that seuite
6:49mental health is taken care of so that
6:51their wellbeing is there so you retain
6:53that talent that you've spent all this
6:54money with CMP or somebody else to bring
6:56into the organization. Yeah, it's a
6:59great question. I mean, a lot of more
7:00established companies, like for
7:02instance, when I was at Whirlpool, my
7:03my, you know, when I was there in a
7:05global role for years, and anyone who
7:08was in an officer/executive role, got to
7:11go to the Mayo Clinic and have a full
7:13check out physically. Now, we know
7:14there's a close association between
7:16mental, emotional, and physical health.
7:19Um, and so there was this, yeah, we'll
7:21make an investment. We want our
7:22executives to be healthy and we see
7:24CCL's done some great research showing
7:26health physically healthy executives
7:29perform better in a more sustainable
7:31level. Now that is intuitive. You
7:33probably don't need a study to tell you
7:34that but it's absolutely true. You've
7:36got to take care of your physical health
7:38which has a direct correlation to your
7:39mental health. Now what we've seen
7:40emerge to answer your question it's it's
7:43almost a derivation of the show
7:44Billions. I don't know if you ever saw
7:46Billions.
7:47>> One of my favorites.
7:48>> Yeah. Yeah. That was kind of cool. And
7:49you had this on-site psychologist. Now,
7:52she was more of a performance
7:53psychologist.
7:54>> Yeah.
7:54>> But what we had
7:55>> and a little Mavavelian, too, if we're
7:57being as a career HR guy and she was in
8:00charge of HR, it made me really
8:01uncomfortable. Yeah.
8:02>> Yeah. Yeah. Like, don't take your HR
8:03advice from from billions. I I I'm not
8:06trying to allude to that, but the in
8:07anyway, but the model of having someone
8:10on site, offsite, or that knows the
8:13culture and the environment and the
8:14people well enough to have confidential
8:17anonymous conversations real time to
8:19help them get their head where it needs
8:21to be. Uh I've seen that absolutely go
8:24up in exponentially. So clinical support
8:28uh for executives is absolutely um on
8:32top of mind as something that's being
8:33invested in by boards, by HR, by a
8:36number of others. Now it doesn't get the
8:38press because most organizations don't
8:40want to you know you can see how that'd
8:42be spun if yeah we have a psychologist
8:44for our executives. Now what you know
8:46that doesn't sound great but it is
8:48great. It is really good for them to
8:51have a resource that's safe. When you're
8:53in the SE, I don't expect anyone to feel
8:55sorry for an executive. Often they're
8:57highly compensated. They want to be
8:58there. Absolutely. That goes with the
9:01job, goes with a gig. I'm not asking
9:03for, you know, uh any heart throb as far
9:05as feeling sorry for them. But it is in
9:08everyone's self-interest that they are
9:10managing their perspective, their
9:11stress, the ambiguity they have to craft
9:13and navigate in ways that allow them to
9:16make decisions that have the most
9:17positive impact on people, process,
9:20outcomes, results, strategy. If they're
9:23not making optimized decisions, the
9:26ripple effect negatively is huge. So the
9:29ROI and investment of providing some
9:31clinical support real time for that
9:33group is is easy to make. It's an easy
9:36case to make
9:37>> and yeah, it's a business case, right? I
9:40mean, that's really what it boils down
9:41to. Yes.
9:42>> And I would argue
9:44>> investing in in in effective there's
9:46I've seen a lot of wellness programs for
9:50you know the greater employee group that
9:51I think h this is a feel-good thing you
9:54know but I I I question and a lot of EAP
9:56programs. I mean there's some good ones
9:58out there but
9:59>> you know uh you know if you get two
10:02visits with uh you know a therapist
10:04about something and then they move you
10:06on. Not sure that that's necessarily
10:09giving that that front line the kind of
10:11of support they might need, but what uh
10:14the the report pointed out different
10:15kinds of stress relievers that
10:17executives are implementing in their own
10:19lives. And you know, some of this will
10:20resonate with everybody, but I'm you
10:22know, did any of those come back to you
10:25as a surprise? I mean, they mentioned
10:27exercise, things like that, but other
10:28stuff like unplugging from their their
10:30office and things like that.
10:32>> Well, I think clear boundaries. Uh
10:33having said that, that's not always
10:35true. I I what I've found is it really
10:38is very individual. I for and and in
10:41some ways I think HR gets in the way if
10:43I can be dead honest with you. And and I
10:45again my last real job or few jobs I was
10:47head of HR so I'm not bashing on human
10:49resources but but we've got to be fluid,
10:52thoughtful and empirical and uh and
10:55empathic in our our understanding of the
10:58difference between individuals. I'll
10:59give you an example. Uh, I've I've seen
11:01advice where they tell executives after
11:03eight, don't send an email, don't send a
11:05text, don't reach out in any way,
11:06fashion, or form. No, no, no, no, no,
11:10no. So, for some executives, that's a
11:12great strategy, and they ought to
11:13communicate that, expect that. Great.
11:16Others, that's a terrible strategy
11:18because they they have a personality,
11:20maybe on a MyersBriggs, they're a P,
11:22where everything melts together. They've
11:23been personal into a professional,
11:25professional into a personal, and
11:26they're going to send emails out at
11:2811:00 at night, 1 in the morning. What
11:30they have to make sure that people
11:32understand clearly is that they don't
11:34expect an immediate response. They don't
11:37and and make that radically clear and
11:40I'm one of them, right? I run a firm. We
11:42have 90 employees. I distributed across
11:45the nation. I send emails out at 1 and
11:47two in the morning. But I am massively
11:49clear. I do not ex if you're replying at
11:511:30. I'm going to ask what's the
11:52problem here. I unless I know you and
11:54that's kind of how you roll. So you got
11:57to allow people maximum flexibility to
11:59manage their personal and professional
12:01lives in a way that work for them. And
12:02it's going to be different for
12:03everybody. And and so that's what I see.
12:06Now the the last thing the other thing
12:07I'd say is this normalizing of mental
12:09health we take radically seriously. If I
12:11can pivot just a little bit. Um a big
12:14part of what we do beyond you know
12:16assessment and development solutions is
12:18outplacement. Uh we've been doing
12:20outplacement services for 25 years. Uh
12:23we have a lot number of large clients.
12:25We help thousands a year kind of go
12:27through transition. Last year, and I'm
12:30going to say this with all soberness, we
12:32had three candidates commit suicide,
12:34right? And uh I I it's t it's tough for
12:38me to even say that. And every time that
12:41happens, I I pause. We do a post-action
12:44sense. We What could have we known? What
12:46do we know? What do we learn? And so
12:48this sensitivity to the mental and
12:50emotional state of people is radically
12:54important.
12:55Managers are not clinicians. We get it.
12:57They shouldn't be expected to be. But
12:59HR, we need a little bit more
13:01sensitivity and understanding and how to
13:03read people, read the red flags, read
13:05what's going on there, and know when to
13:07bring in real support. And if EAP ain't
13:11cutting it, which often is the case, get
13:13something a little better. Have a
13:15clinician. um it can save lives even if
13:18it's not physically leaving you know
13:20like I just said very soberly but uh
13:24just saving the the quality of their
13:27life there's a lot of stress in the
13:29system we see it especially uniquely
13:31with the rising generation right we we
13:33see it for those under 33 under 34 their
13:36sense of faith in the future sense of
13:38angst existential angst and otherwise is
13:41just very different than perhaps people
13:43my age or our age So having more
13:47awareness as managers and leaders,
13:49starting with executives themselves
13:51around the mental and emotional state of
13:53folks, knowing they're not clinicians,
13:54having real-time access to real decent
13:57resources that you can direct people to
13:59is good for business and it's good and
14:02it's honestly it's just the right thing
14:04to do if that makes sense. And so if
14:08people feel that their employer
14:10cares about their well-being, mental or
14:12otherwise, you know, they've got
14:14psychological safety and all those
14:15things, engagement is higher and
14:19employees are, you know, they're, you
14:24productive, um, more collaborative. Um
14:28what are your preferred
14:30outcome metrics for investments in in
14:33well-being and just employee engagement
14:35in general when you're talking
14:36especially when you're talking about the
14:37seauite because that is that different
14:39than the front line do you you ask
14:41different questions or uh you know just
14:43how do you all look at that
14:44>> what we find is people more similar than
14:46different they really are you know it's
14:48there's a lot of studies on that it used
14:49to be when people smoked the the most
14:52active and collaborative network across
14:54levels were the smokers you know because
14:56they they meet outside and the CEO is
14:58having a cigarette with the janitor
15:00>> and they chat about whatever and get to
15:02know each other in a common space. Now,
15:05we don't smoke as much anymore and nor
15:06am I suggesting we should, but th those
15:09collaborative spaces are are really
15:11really powerful. I as far as the ROI of
15:13it, there's a couple of things I look
15:15at. One is we need new measures. Um, one
15:19that we've created and it's free by the
15:21way, we have what's called the career
15:22health indicator. It's an assessment we
15:24built. Um, we've written a couple books
15:26on careers and career health. One called
15:28Make It Work and the other one called
15:30Don't Dread Monday. And as part of that,
15:32we created a a research-driven
15:34assessment associated with each of those
15:36books. The CHI50. You can take it on our
15:39website. It's free. It gives you
15:41immediate feedback on your sense of your
15:43career health. And it what we found is
15:45career healthgagement is a very
15:47individual thing. And you take it and
15:50you're going to get a score from 0 to
15:5150. And if you're closer to zero, you're
15:53in a real tr situation where it the
15:56effects of misalignment and unhappiness
15:58are affecting probably every other
15:59aspect of your life. If you're closer to
16:0150, it's positively impacting every
16:04other aspect of your life. So the
16:06measures, one is there's measures like
16:08that that are very individual that you
16:09encourage people to take and then have a
16:11conversation with their boss around why
16:13am I low? What can we do about it? And
16:15realizing most solutions are very
16:17unique. Um then at a more macro level
16:20you know I do like some of the the NPS
16:23scores are good employee uh scores I we
16:26use those in our engagement survey work
16:28you know would you recommend it um we
16:31also when we look at the prioritized set
16:33of questions we all know this we we are
16:36attracted to a company and we leave a
16:37manager you've got to have a way of
16:39sourcing surfacing and getting after bad
16:42managers quickly because they can fester
16:44for months years even and cause so much
16:47damage
16:48uh to your business, to your retention,
16:49to your engagement. And so one other
16:51tool that we often put in which we've
16:53done at a number of companies is what's
16:55called the management as the management
16:57review where they actually get upward
16:59feedback once a year from their
17:00employees and 13 questions takes
17:04employees five minutes, doesn't
17:05overwhelm anyone, and immediately they
17:07get a score as far as their level of
17:09management engagement. And so when you
17:11get that you it's you see managers on a
17:14scale of 1 to five are around 22 and 2.2
17:16too from their employees, you got to
17:18immediately jump in and say something's
17:19wrong here, right? And those that are
17:214.8, 4.9 out of five, you're a hero.
17:23Good job. So, mechanisms for sourcing
17:27bad, disengaging managers, individual
17:30assessment with conversations with your
17:32boss. Those are some metrics that allow
17:34real-time actions that help you to
17:36adjust and make and make it a better
17:38place for everybody. Uh, one of the
17:40other notes out of that I picked up out
17:42of the uh, survey was I think 47% said
17:46that they had increased communications
17:48with their team and over half 53% I
17:52think said uh, they had better
17:54engagement in their teams than than in
17:58last time you know I guess last year. Um
18:01what do you think is driving those
18:03things that that in because all I is
18:05that is it RTO I mean you know because
18:07it seems like that's what I was hearing
18:09from leadership three years ago two
18:11years ago is this this remote work
18:13schedule we don't have the collaboration
18:15people aren't talking and certainly
18:17we're seeing more hybrid relationships
18:19uh work relationships or just you know
18:21full RTO full-time but what do you
18:24think's driving that both improved
18:26communication and uh better uh
18:29engagement
18:30Well, I think I think we've gone through
18:32this we we all had this kind of
18:34confluence of event where all of a
18:35sudden we're working working virtually.
18:38Some parts of the country went longer
18:39than that than others. That's just how
18:41it is.
18:41>> I mean, you know, you and I think we're
18:43both in Texas by, you know, it happened
18:45in March and in July we were kissing
18:47strangers on the street corner. I mean,
18:48we were no big deal. Yeah. Well, it's
18:51funny, but you know, we have we have a
18:52presence in New York and Chicago, right?
18:54So, I remember when I fly up there and I
18:56had to find my face mask because I'd
18:58lost it, right? Right. And obviously I
18:59had to put it. You're right. So there's
19:00a regional difference there. Absolutely
19:02was. I think there's two things that are
19:03happening. One is for those that are
19:05staying remote or hybrid, we're learning
19:08how to do it. I I do think there's this
19:10kind of learning curve we've gone
19:11through as far as how we stay engaged,
19:13do subgroups, etc. Two, a lot more
19:16people are coming in to work. That is an
19:18expectation. And and you know, kind of
19:20the days of hybrid are mostly over.
19:23Having said that, you know, as we fill
19:24roles, we're filling a CEO role six
19:26months ago in New York City. I won't say
19:28what or company or anything like I
19:31talked to two of the CEO candidates who
19:34one of their questions for us when it
19:36got to me because I was kind of doing
19:38some final vetting was well is this
19:40remote work or not? This is the CEO. I'm
19:44like what kind of questions that and
19:46really that's up to you. I I you know
19:48that's almost disqualifies you to even
19:50ask that silly question but you can see
19:52so it's still very embedded in parts of
19:54our culture. Right. So there I think
19:56they've learned how to do it throughout
19:58much of the country. We're kind of going
20:00back to work as business as usual. Last
20:01thing I'll say what's interesting is the
20:03research on this is fascinating. The
20:05people who have the biggest challenge
20:07staying at home, believe it or not, are
20:09introverts.
20:11You would expect the inverse. You expect
20:13well it's extrovert. What they found is
20:15introverts tend not to have these social
20:16on average the social infrastructure
20:19outside of work that extroverts do. So
20:21they rely on it for the social need that
20:22they had. when you took that away, it
20:24was very devastating and difficult for
20:25many of them. Well,
20:27>> you know, that's really interesting
20:28because I mean certainly when we first
20:30went remote in 2020, I was climbing the
20:33walls. I'm the one extrovert in my
20:35company. You know, all my analysts are
20:36sitting in front of two or three
20:37computer monitors doing high level data
20:40entry and analysis stuff and very low
20:43social interaction. And I'm looking for
20:44the biggest introverts I can find in
20:46those roles typically and they were
20:48loving it.
20:49>> Uh but and we had the technology so Zoom
20:51was there. They were constantly in
20:53contact with each other when they needed
20:54to. But I was climbing the walls. But my
20:56wife, who's also an introvert and is our
20:58controller, she it really impacted her.
21:01She was uh you know because on a daily
21:04basis going into the office seeing
21:07people uh and she was stuck at home all
21:09day with me, God help her. And so, you
21:11know, that was she had to go find, okay,
21:13I'm going to go do this volunteer work.
21:15I'm going to do these other things
21:16throughout the, you know, throughout the
21:17month
21:18>> to keep new kinds of engagement going.
21:20So, I hadn't thought about I thought,
21:22you know, I hadn't thought about that in
21:23in relation to her introversion, but I
21:24think that's probably a big deal there.
21:26>> And I'm glad she doesn't listen to the
21:27podcast. I love you, dear. So,
21:30>> yeah. By the way, I worked with my wife,
21:31too. So, you know, we have to, you know,
21:33make sure that they
21:34>> we're better off for it. I Yeah,
21:36>> certainly. Yeah. There's no question
21:37about that at all. No, you're right. The
21:40introverts had to go find and create a
21:41new infrastructure to get that social
21:43media that they did have. Extroverts
21:45will find it somewhere and they tend to
21:47have it outside of work, too. Whereas
21:48introverts, not so much as. And again
21:50it's on average every individual
21:51situation is a little bit different but
21:53it you know we learned a lot through
21:54that whole COVID thing I think which is
21:57around social isolation. I do think
21:59we're coming on the other we're very
22:01much on the other side of it and leaders
22:03are better managing teams whether it's a
22:06hybrid situation fully remote or in
22:08person. And let's take a quick break.
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24:28And now back to my conversation with Joe
24:30Fchum. So for that half who didn't say
24:33that communication was was um improved
24:37uh since the last you talked, what kind
24:40of prescriptions would you make to say,
24:41"Hey, here's some ways you can improve
24:43communication with your team, especially
24:45at the executive level because, you
24:47know, they they tend to have, you know,
24:48a smaller number of direct reports and
24:51uh and fewer peers than, you know, the
24:54midline uh managers or the frontline
24:56employees."
24:57>> Yeah. You know, it's interesting couple.
24:59One is when you look at that our pulse
25:01check um it said either it's gotten
25:04better, it stayed the same, which is I
25:06think it was like 40%. So it was only
25:08like nine or 10% it got worse. It's
25:10trending or staying the same which is a
25:13pretty good dang good sign, right? So
25:15those folks where maybe it's the same
25:16but we'd like it to be better or it got
25:18worse. A lot of times it's because
25:20there's new players on the team or
25:22they're a new CEO or there's a
25:24discontitious event that's happened. you
25:26know, you kind of have to look at each
25:29one of those situations a little bit
25:30differently. What I would say though is
25:33is I do think what we normalized is that
25:35you got to stay connected with your
25:38people. That it's the job of the
25:40managers more than just getting work
25:41done, which is the primary job, but it's
25:43in the best interest of the business and
25:45the team to care about the whole person.
25:48and and those HR human resource
25:50practices that reinforce and support
25:52that are going to be better off
25:55especially having the difficult
25:56conversations you know not being
25:58conflict avoidant
26:00>> uh leaning in and creating a safe
26:02environment to be candid and have cander
26:05and thoughtful candid with each other
26:07you know I talked about our executive
26:08coaches before and I talked to them
26:10about what are the areas you focus on
26:12you certainly is there's stress
26:14management emotional regulation the
26:16other big area is exactly what I just
26:18said. You know, having difficult,
26:20crucial conversations is is not easy.
26:23It's difficult. Yet, it's the number one
26:25driver of alignment, development,
26:28accountability, and performance. And so,
26:31helping managers just be more candid,
26:34whether it's remote like this or it's in
26:37person, is absolutely the key to to
26:40being, you know, truly effective as a
26:42leader. And I mean it's a there's a
26:45reason I have a shot glass right here on
26:46on the desk. It's it's a drinking game
26:48here on on the podcast is so often we
26:52put people into management roles and
26:54even seuite uh who
26:56>> are really good at execution and really
26:58bad at people and we don't give them the
27:01skills and the training. Okay, you know
27:02this, you know, this guy is a, you know,
27:04he's a great accounting manager. Let's
27:06make him CFO.
27:07>> But that means he's got a lot more
27:09people reporting to him and he's got a
27:10different set of pressure set. but we're
27:11not going to do anything to train him up
27:13as he climbs the ladder and now he's you
27:15know it's the Peter principle his his
27:17ability to manage people is not what it
27:19needs to be at that level. Um how much
27:21do you see companies investing in
27:24management training because it keeps
27:25coming up in this conversation and a lot
27:27of ours management training and even up
27:29at the seauite there the good and the
27:31bad in that right I haven't seen
27:32training budgets go up that's for sure
27:34um having said that you know I I've seen
27:37some meta trends when it comes to
27:38development it used to be gosh 20 30
27:41years ago that they'd say okay we got a
27:43management program hurting behavior
27:44everyone go through these three classes
27:46go through this one set of experiences
27:48now check the box you're all great
27:50people managers and the ROI of that was
27:52skeptical. Then it got to more team
27:54based. Now it's more individual based
27:56which I think is right on. I see a lot
27:58more investment in coaching um
28:00customized development paths, unique
28:02focus and high potentials. You know
28:05those people that are going to be in
28:06bigger roles over time. We got to know
28:07who they are and then invest in them
28:09early and proactively because they're
28:11going to have broader ripple effect. So
28:12I think the meta trends to more
28:14individualized is probably good. I also
28:17see a a kind of mainstreaming of the
28:19whole idea of emotional intelligence
28:21which I think is great right that that
28:24IQ just doesn't matter. In fact, EQ in
28:26many ways is more important, right? It's
28:27it's the situational and interpersonal
28:29awareness and influence, you know. So, I
28:32do see that, you know, I think it's
28:33highly variable, man. I I mean, there
28:35there's some companies that make great
28:36investments and a lot that don't. And
28:38then usually what happens is they have a
28:40crisis where we have some really bad
28:42leaders, we've gotten in trouble,
28:44non-compliance, we don't get along, we
28:46hate each other, and everyone knows it.
28:47So, it's usually one of those crisis
28:49modes that brings in a firm like ours to
28:52do an assessment, help them really
28:53correct course and a lot of it is
28:56because they're not investing in
28:57meaningful, thoughtful, ROI driven
29:00development across the system as an
29:03organization.
29:04>> Let's talk about executive job security
29:06sentiment because I think 55% said they
29:10had no real concerns about their current
29:12position, which really surprised me that
29:14that number was that high. And then the
29:16balance said they had some or major
29:18concerns and I mean that may be well
29:21related to industry performance and in a
29:24in a very weird economy the last seven
29:26months but what do you what do you
29:28attribute to that and then what if if
29:31you're board the board or you're the
29:33CHRO
29:35what should they be targeting as far as
29:37retention for the the seauite? Yeah, I a
29:40couple of things. One is I think it's
29:41highly variable based on ownership
29:42structure. It's and I we should add that
29:45question to that going forward. You
29:48know, I I what I found is if it's
29:49private equity owned, there's a lot more
29:51stress around
29:53>> I've got no doubt. I've got plenty of
29:54private equity clients and I understand.
29:56Yeah. Yeah.
29:56>> Yeah. Yeah. So, they're not ever going
29:58to feel that fat happy, right? So, you
30:00could have a good year, one bad year and
30:02goodbye. And and that is just kind of
30:04how they roll. There's a lot shorter
30:06time horizon. That's their model, you
30:08know, going in. If it's public company,
30:10there's a little less stress. And then
30:12if it's privately held, there's even
30:14less stress often as far as so that the
30:17ownership structure we find is highly
30:18predictive. Uh then the condition of the
30:21economy, condition of the industry. The
30:23other thing we see high variability
30:24around is your function. The the seuite
30:27role that tends to have the quickest
30:28turn is CIO the last five to to 10
30:32years. And so the chief information
30:34officer, you think of it with cyber
30:35security leaks, all the dependencies and
30:38variables they have to manage and it
30:41goes very public at times when it's not
30:43managed well. Even if it doesn't make
30:45the news, certainly it's embarrassing
30:47and they have to pay money. So the CIO
30:49is in a hot seat. The CIO usually
30:51doesn't feel very really fat and happy
30:53and and highly engaged. Whereas other
30:55functions a little less stressed too. So
30:57I do think it matters. I think it's the
30:59ownership structure and the function
31:01you're leading to some degree that kind
31:03of come together in a matrix. So the
31:06people that completed this, there were
31:07some private equity in there. There's no
31:09doubt there's a lot of public companies
31:10and privately held companies. So we're
31:13going to have to fret that out a little
31:14bit, but but what we've seen and observe
31:17it kind of matters on the ownership
31:18structure and what function you're
31:20leading if that makes sense.
31:21>> Yeah. And there's probably there
31:23probably certain personality styles that
31:25do well in that, you know, cut all
31:29expense to the bone PE, you know, uh,
31:32environment,
31:33>> uh, who who are fine with that and, you
31:35know, then others who maybe it's, you
31:39know, it's a longer term focus than, you
31:42know, and and and vice versa. I mean,
31:45somebody who goes to work for a
31:46privately held family-owned business
31:47that's got a, you know, 50-year vision,
31:49you know, nose to the grindstone, you
31:52know, you know, pulling out all the
31:53stops to make the next quarter, they may
31:55not be happy in in that other
31:56environment, too, I guess.
31:57>> Oh, cord, you you know it. I mean, the
32:00private equity on people, some people
32:03love and flourish in that environment.
32:05They love the clarity. It's a it's a
32:07financially driven set of decisions to
32:10get to an event which can be a really
32:12nice payoff for them and a really nice
32:14payday for them.
32:15>> Yeah.
32:16>> And then you bet and then and they go
32:18from one to the next to the next and
32:19it's a pro and it's a certain profile
32:21that really likes
32:23>> that blueprint for how to work. Others
32:26don't. You know, they get very
32:27frustrated because hey, we can't build
32:28anything long-term. We're not talking
32:29culture enough. And and if those are the
32:32sorts of things you want to do and
32:34leave, then most private equity, not
32:36all,
32:37>> uh that's probably not the game you want
32:38to play, right? You you want to be
32:40somewhere with with a little more
32:42stability and ownership structure and
32:43investments and that sort of thing. So,
32:44it really
32:45>> it it says more about your profile
32:47versus which one's right or wrong in and
32:49of itself.
32:50>> Yeah. But I've definitely seen longtime
32:52clients that were very stable, privately
32:54owned, and then they did, you know, the
32:55owners did their exit and the new
32:58buyers, whoever they were, came in. Oh,
33:00we love your culture. We're so excited
33:02about, you know, what you've done here,
33:04what you've built. And then in six
33:05months, they've wrecked that culture. I
33:08mean, it's, you know, it's, we want you
33:09to keep your culture. We want everybody
33:10to love each other, but here's how we do
33:12business. And those are two different,
33:14you know, those go like this. They've
33:16got to be, you know, you can't have that
33:17gap. Yeah.
33:18>> No doubt. I early in my career, I worked
33:20at Compact. We bought a lot of companies
33:22and we ruined them. Uh, because, you
33:24know, we we didn't figure out the
33:26culture. we didn't operate independently
33:28when they should have and their software
33:29however and then when Ula Packer came
33:31along I was part of the integration team
33:33and we told them we said make decisions
33:36move fast even if that means don't not
33:38including us and different subs of the
33:40businesses because the worst thing you
33:42can do is go is not be declarative on
33:44what your culture is and be honest and
33:46transparent who's here we are here's
33:48where it fits here where it doesn't fit
33:50versus trying to tap on both sides of
33:52the line and uh you got to be
33:55declarative and clear on who you are as
33:56a culture. I think that's one of the
33:58powerful things about every strong
33:59culture is they don't try to be all
34:01things. They know who they are. Ben and
34:03Jerry's knows who they are. Oh yeah.
34:04>> Right.
34:05>> Dell Dell, you know, Dell was
34:07>> well and and Ben and Jerry's I mean they
34:09got bought by Unilver, right? And and
34:11and there's a big structure. There's a
34:13big tension there between between
34:17their culture and Unilver's culture.
34:19>> Oh. So you mean it's close to that. I
34:22did some work at Green Mountain Coffee
34:23Roasters up in Vermont and it was the
34:26same it was waterberry to Vermont that
34:28Ben and Jerry's
34:29>> for 10 years they had this agreement Ben
34:30and Jerry's would operate when the
34:32operated by unilver was very public 10
34:35years independent really of unilver's
34:37operations after 10 years they could be
34:39subsumed so they did their thing and
34:41they kept their culture going unilver
34:43comes in and now we know even
34:44politically right Ben and Jerry's made
34:46some very clear statements that
34:49>> cost them maybe in the market And
34:51unilver was not comfortable with that
34:53and they said that's in. So now we see
34:55the okay what's our culture now? How's
34:57it going to change if it's going to
34:58change? You have to be declarative. You
35:00can't be all things to all people and
35:03and there in lies I think you know what
35:06executives hopefully are starting to get
35:08and certainly private equity when
35:09they're doing their job right get that
35:11too. What I hate is when they come in
35:12and pretend they're you love the culture
35:14but we don't enough to uh do anything
35:17but change it.
35:18>> That seems a bit inconsistent. Yeah.
35:20Well, and I think leadership that
35:22survives in PO, you know, that rises in
35:24a PE firm is generally a certain style
35:26of of leader and very autocratic and top
35:29down and u and so, you know, good for
35:32them. I it's I've been approached by
35:34some of our over the years by some of
35:35our clients saying, "Hey, we'd like to,
35:38you know, help you build your company
35:39and get it." No thanks. It's not the
35:41lifestyle I'm looking for.
35:43>> No, it's a tough deal, man. Well, but
35:45again, it's not and even, you know, the
35:47what they tend to care about one is the
35:49CFO is almost as important as a CEO in a
35:51portfolio company because they they want
35:53to really know where they are
35:54financially daily, weekly, hourly, you
35:56know, minute by minute pretty much. They
35:58want to make sure that there's cash flow
36:00that they have a quick exit or as quick
36:03as possible with with a meaningful
36:05balance sheet that works. So, you got
36:06just, you know, in some ways it brings
36:08massive clarity to what it takes to win.
36:12Now, it's not my deal, right? I mean,
36:14private equity has come to try to buy us
36:16a few times and we've said no. And I
36:18will always say no. But but for other
36:21people, it's not a bad fit, honestly.
36:23>> Yeah. Well, and I say no as much because
36:25I'd have to go get a real job. And what
36:27would I do?
36:27>> No, you don't want that.
36:28>> Yeah. Exactly. Well, hey man, thank you
36:30for your time. We're up on time. It just
36:32flew by. There's so much more that I
36:34wanted to cover out of the report, but
36:35I'm going to include a link to uh CMP's
36:38fourth annual national pulse check on
36:40the seauite state of mind in the show
36:42notes. so our our listeners can dive
36:45deeper into the information and how to
36:47reach Joe on LinkedIn or whatever is
36:49going to be out there as well. But
36:51that's all the time we have. Thanks for
36:52joining me today, Joe.
36:53>> This is great. Thank you so much, Mike
36:55or Mr. Coffee. I'm going to come. So,
36:57this was fun.
36:58>> My that was my dad. So, yeah. Um you can
37:01see Joe at the Fort Worth HR Strategic
37:05Mindset Conference on September 12th.
37:08And again, more information on that in
37:10the show notes, but also at fwhr.org.
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