Full transcript
0:00the HR department and the legal
0:01department, depending on the
0:02organization, the operations folks may
0:05perceive you as the department of no,
0:07you can't do that. And to the extent
0:10that you can, you really want to finesse
0:13that message. Of course, your point's
0:15well taken. You absolutely need legal
0:18and HR to say, "Well, wait, that's not a
0:21good idea because, you know, that
0:22violates federal law or that's a huge
0:24litigation risk.
0:31Good morning, HR. I'm Mike Coffee,
0:33president of Imperative, Bulletproof
0:35Background Checks with Fast and Friendly
0:37Service, and this is the podcast where I
0:39talk to business leaders about bringing
0:41people together to create value for all
0:44stakeholders. I'm joined today by VNA
0:47Braun. VNA is an attorney and
0:49shareholder in the law firm Decker
0:51Jones, PC, and heads labor and
0:53employment law group. She has
0:55represented employers for over 30 years.
0:58BNA has been honored as a great woman of
1:00Texas by the Fort Worth Business Press
1:02and as a member of the Fort Worth 500 by
1:05Fort Worth, Inc. BNA is also a member of
1:08the board of directors of First
1:09Financial Bank Shares and serves on the
1:12board of trustees for Texas Health
1:13Resources where I spent the first five
1:15years of my HR career. I think they've
1:17cleaned up most of those messes by now.
1:20but it's from her experience as a board
1:23member that she's joining us today to
1:25discuss the relationship between a board
1:27and HR. This is VNA's third appearance
1:30on Good Morning HR. She joined me last
1:32year to discuss the Pregnant Workers
1:34Fairness Act and way back in 2022 to
1:37discuss guns in the workplace. I think
1:39VNA on your fifth visit will give you
1:41the Saturday Night Live version of the
1:43Good Morning HR terry cloth robe. But
1:46welcome back. Thanks for joining me
1:48again. Thank you for inviting me and I'm
1:50looking forward to the good morning HR
1:52robe. That sounds promising.
1:54>> You got your coffee cup back there in
1:55the background. That's good. So,
1:57>> exactly.
1:58>> So, HR is always talking about getting a
2:01seat at the table. And in any
2:04organization, there's no table higher
2:06level than the one that the board sits
2:09around. So to start, let's talk about
2:12what your role as a board member,
2:14whether it's a publicly traded company
2:16like uh First Financial Bank Shares or
2:18it's a large service delivery nonprofit
2:21like Texas Health Resources. Uh what's
2:24your role as a board member?
2:26>> That's a great question and uh I've got
2:29five years of experience to uh draw on.
2:31It's interesting because anything with
2:33employment law, I feel super confident
2:35because I'm getting close to 35 years of
2:38practice. Uh, in terms of the public
2:41company boardroom, that opportunity came
2:43my way in 2020 when First Financial Bank
2:46Shares was kind enough to invite me to
2:49have that seat at the table. And shortly
2:52after that, I was invited to join the
2:53board of trustees of Texas Health
2:55Resources. And even though one is a
2:57publicly traded company, one is a
2:59nonprofit, they're both very large
3:01multi-billion dollar organizations. And
3:04so it is really humbling to be asked to
3:08be part of the group that's overseeing
3:12the health and the future of a very
3:14large organization. So that has been a
3:18learning curve for me, frankly. And when
3:20you and I were talking about this
3:22particular episode, I thought, hey,
3:25that'll be interesting to share because
3:27it was striking to me as someone who has
3:31dealt with highlevel HR executives most
3:33of my career. They're typically my
3:35contact person. It was very interesting
3:39to see the contrast between a
3:41conversation I'll have with an HR
3:43executive, which is typically since I'm
3:45outside council, I'm in the weeds of a
3:48particular employee issue and you know
3:51we're very granular and trying to figure
3:53out how do we get out of a particular
3:55difficult situation. Then the contrast
3:59at the board level we're talking
4:01strategy we're talking vision we want
4:03really broadbrush
4:06uh forwardlooking input from a high
4:09level HR executive. So, it's just
4:11completely different and that's what I
4:13thought would be interesting to talk
4:15about today.
4:16>> And I think a lot of people don't
4:19realize how much I mean I think we see
4:22you know okay the CEO is going to set
4:24the vision and all of this for the for
4:27the organization. But I I've always
4:29thought in really wellrun organizations
4:33vision's really coming from the board
4:34that the board's really giving the big
4:36picture direction and then that
4:38leadership the you know that seuite is
4:40executing on that and they're certainly
4:42giving their input and uh often you know
4:44your CEO your president or certainly
4:46your founder sits on the board and
4:48they've got you know uh their feet in
4:50you know both sides of of that
4:52relationship but talk more you mentioned
4:54strategy so talk about what you where
4:56the balance is between strategy from the
4:59board versus and the vision from the
5:01board versus what the staff for back
5:04lack of a better word has you know just
5:06needs to create in order to execute.
5:09Well, you're exactly right about how the
5:11division of labor is supposed to work of
5:14course with a very sophisticated
5:16organization because you know first
5:18financial that's banking it's highly
5:19regulated Texas health is uh hospital
5:23systems also heavily regulated in
5:25healthcare so the execution coming from
5:28the seauite can't possibly be you know
5:32sold short these very very expert
5:36executives are making it happen day day
5:39in and day out. But as you said, the
5:42board is supposed to have that long
5:45vision. So I I'd hesitate to say that we
5:49set the strategy because that's asking a
5:51lot for people who are not in the
5:53business, you know, seven days a week
5:56like our executives are. But we are
5:58supposed to be thinking about the health
6:00of the organization
6:02where not only the organization is going
6:04but where the industry is going. and we
6:07are tasked with thinking okay what do we
6:09do today that's going to be beneficial
6:11to this organization 10 years from now
6:1320 years from now if we're lucky 50
6:15years from now so there is that
6:17distinction and um I I hope that the
6:21boards I'd serve on I I feel like we
6:24support our executives and and provide
6:27that forward vision but you're right
6:29we're looking for suggestions and
6:32strategy we're very much looking to the
6:33executives for that and the chief HR
6:36executive, you know, that's the person
6:39that really we rely on to tell us what
6:43we're going to need to do to attract and
6:45retain the top talent to keep people
6:48engaged. And so it is it's a huge job
6:52that we're talking about if somebody's
6:54working their way up the uh HR corporate
6:57ladder.
6:58>> That's kind of the the role shift,
7:00right? I mean, HR folks are generally,
7:03you know, individual contributors. uh
7:06you know they're working as a team maybe
7:07they're leading other HR people they're
7:09coaching they're doing a lot of the
7:11things that are critical to the
7:12organization building culture and doing
7:13all that but then you get to you know
7:16especially that seuite or that most
7:18senior level of uh leadership and really
7:21it's whether it's HR finance or anything
7:24that role really begins to change
7:27u because how do you you know how do you
7:31as an organization implement execute on
7:33what the board's asking you to execute
7:35on and and develop the strategy to do
7:38that. Uh you can't be in the weeds of
7:42this employee relations issue or
7:44worrying about you know 401k enrollment
7:47and all those kinds of things that we
7:49have to do at a granular level uh if
7:52we're going to really execute you know
7:55big picture. So, as somebody's moving up
7:58the ladder in their HR career, what kind
8:01of skills would make them attractive to
8:03a board if they started, you know, and
8:05and you know, to be successful in
8:07working with a board?
8:09>> That's really the crux of of the
8:10decision today, right? I mean, it's not
8:13decision, sorry, the the conversation we
8:15wanted to have today. um you know what
8:18skills, what characteristics
8:21do you want to bring to the table if
8:23you're a senior HR leader and you really
8:26want to make yourself that valuable to
8:28the organization. So you are part of the
8:31executive team and you are someone that
8:34the board is relying on for good input
8:37and at a very fundamental level. you
8:41know, you just want someone who not only
8:44is competent at the granular things that
8:46you were talking about, but really has
8:49the ability to look more broadly at the
8:53industry and give a sense of of where we
8:56are and where we're going. Uh, for
8:58example, I serve on the compensation
9:01committee for First Financial. I serve
9:04on audit and compliance for Texas
9:06Health. So, we're we're hearing a lot
9:08about, you know, how we compensate our
9:11executives and how we're trying to, you
9:13know, keep all of our workforce engaged.
9:16I, as a board member, what I'm looking
9:18for, let's take executive compensation
9:21for example, give me a spreadsheet
9:23saying, "Oh, here are executives,
9:26starting with the CEO, here are the
9:28compensation packages." If you just look
9:30at that on a piece of paper, you're kind
9:33of flying blind. Um, I mean, hopefully
9:36your board members have experience in
9:38their own industries. They have some
9:40frame of reference, but we're really
9:43looking to the chief HR officer or
9:46whoever is at that top role to tell us,
9:49well, this is our peer group that we
9:51compare ourselves to. This is what we
9:54understand, at least for a publicly
9:56traded company, a lot of it's reported,
9:58right? And you can compare yourself
10:00against peers and have a conversation
10:03about well you know maybe our salaries
10:07are close to the 50th percentile even
10:09though we aspire to be higher up but
10:11where we're really attracting the best
10:14executives is we've got incredible
10:17incentives. So perhaps our target
10:19bonuses are better than our peers. Or
10:22perhaps we feel like we've put together
10:24a really good package of incentives with
10:27stock options, maybe restricted stock
10:29units, maybe performance stock units,
10:32and you start talking about, okay, if
10:34you're going to have performance stock
10:36PSUs, what are the metrics? You know,
10:38how do you decide that somebody's earned
10:41that versus not? Because again, you
10:44know, if you're talking about a publicly
10:46traded company, there's all kinds of
10:48different metrics, but the executives
10:50can be doing amazing things and the
10:52stock price may be completely not
10:55connected to how the executive team is
10:57performing. So, you know, compensation
10:59committees have these conversations
11:01about how do we keep people rewarded for
11:04doing what's within their control as
11:06well as they possibly can. And we really
11:09look to the chief HR exec to make those
11:14connections for us and say this is how
11:16we distinguish ourselves from our peers.
11:18This is how you know if we're trying to
11:20fill a highle position, we're trying to
11:22bring in a new CFO because our CFO is
11:25retiring. How would we attract the very
11:28best person and make them really think,
11:32"Oh, I'm excited about this opportunity
11:34because it's not just base salary. It's
11:37all these other things that I can reach
11:39for and accomplish." So, uh, that was a
11:42long-winded answer, but hopefully I got
11:44to the meat of it.
11:45>> And I think one of the other things I
11:48see I my mentor in HR, you know, spent
11:51most I mean, she was brilliant and still
11:54is. You still are Diane. Uh but she um
11:57you know she had executive roles Harris
12:00Methodist THR and then with Kaiser and
12:03California and Silicon Valley startups.
12:06The thing that I clued in early with her
12:10compared to some of the other HR leaders
12:11I'd worked with was that she had a
12:16compliance mindset at some I mean on
12:18some level she you know compliance she
12:19understood the need for it and all of
12:21that but she didn't see herself as the
12:23HR cop. uh you know she was you know she
12:26was more interested in what is the
12:29organization trying to do and how do we
12:30accomplish it rather than looking for
12:33opportunities to say no and I I still
12:35meet a lot of HR people who who think
12:38that's their primary job to keep the
12:40company from stepping on our own toes
12:41which is important but that can't be
12:44your full-time job right so I think
12:46that's getting to that senior level
12:48would be one of those things uh because
12:51I don't know how you even tell the board
12:52no you can't do that I think you've got
12:54advise them somewhat differently.
12:56>> Absolutely. And in that regard, uh HR
12:59and legal kind of suffer from the same
13:03reputational issue. Uh both the HR
13:06department and the legal department,
13:07depending on the organization, the
13:09operations folks may perceive you as the
13:12department of no, you can't do that. And
13:15to the extent that you can, you really
13:18want to finesse that message. Of course,
13:20your point's well taken. You absolutely
13:23need legal and HR to say, well, wait,
13:25that's not a good idea because, you
13:27know, that violates federal law or
13:29that's a huge litigation risk. But
13:32absolutely, the focus needs to shift as
13:36people rise to a more strategic level in
13:39the organization.
13:41The answer is no. But here's how we can
13:45accomplish your objective a different
13:46way. here's how we can move forward in a
13:51safer way or a more compliant way, but
13:53we're going to move forward and we're
13:55going to meet those objectives because I
13:58think that's one of the reasons why HR,
14:01you know, has struggled for that seat at
14:03the table because there was that
14:05reputation that well, they're just going
14:07to put roadblocks in our way and we need
14:09to be agile and we need to respond to
14:12the market and HR is an impediment. And
14:16so to the extent that an organization
14:17may still be suffering from that
14:19misconception, it falls to those
14:22visionary HR executives to prove why
14:26they can be a critical part of moving
14:29forward. And then looping back to one of
14:31the questions that you asked like what
14:33what does someone need to to show that
14:37they're appropriate for that role? Don't
14:40be scared to say, "Hey, to get this
14:44organization to where y'all want me to
14:46go, I I need more resources or I need
14:49more information." Because I do think
14:52some of these compliance-minded HR folks
14:55are used to kind of being in their box
14:58>> and in order to rise to a higher level.
15:02Um, don't be shy. You know, if you need
15:05more resources or if you need more of a
15:08flow of information, if you're being
15:10left out of an important conversation,
15:12say so. I think it's changed, but I um I
15:16think
15:18businesses are more and more realizing
15:20that people aren't cogs in the machine
15:22and that just because I can replace the
15:26labor for a dollar an hour cheaper
15:28doesn't mean that I'm going to get the
15:30same level of performance and success in
15:32the organization. What about shifting
15:34that mindset? I think HR's got a really
15:37important job to do as far as especially
15:39selling the value of hiring. Well, to
15:43start with retaining those employees,
15:45those things, how much of that does HR
15:48does the this most senior HR person
15:50who's dealing with the board need to
15:52communicate to the board? And uh and and
15:55how do you you know, how do you
15:57demonstrate that this isn't just warm
15:59and fuzzy stuff to a board?
16:01>> That's a good question. Um, and I'm not
16:04sure I'm going to answer it exactly
16:06where you were going, so feel free to
16:07redirect me, but what what I was
16:09thinking about, for example, um, I'll
16:13speak about First Financial just because
16:14I know them so well. You know, First
16:16Financial is one of, I think, four
16:19companies in the entire world that use
16:21Hortz Schultzy as a consultant. He was
16:24the founder of Ritz Carlton, and they're
16:26the only bank that works with him. And
16:28the thesis is, hey, we're going to
16:30aspire to this extraordinary level of
16:32customer service that you would see in
16:34this elite luxury hotel. We want when
16:37you walk into the bank lobby, we want
16:39you to feel like you're at the Ritz
16:40Carlton, which is a pretty high ask,
16:42right? Um, what we need then, and
16:46unfortunately we have that right now,
16:48you know, in a lead HR person, you
16:50really need someone who not only lives
16:53and breathes that culture, but is is
16:56almost like a preacher. They're
16:57proitizing. You know, our culture is
17:00extraordinary customer service. You
17:02know, if the bank lobby is supposed to
17:04be closing, but there's a line, no,
17:06we're going to stay open as long as it
17:08takes. We're going to take care of these
17:09people. If someone needs to run
17:11something out to a customer's home, and
17:14that costs overtime, well, that's that's
17:16who we are. We're going to take care of
17:18the customer and and provide this
17:20experience. And you really need HR folks
17:25who are the guardians of that culture
17:28and the people who are going to, you
17:30know, build up that culture. And um and
17:34I think at one point, Mike, you and I
17:36were going to talk about mergers and
17:37acquisitions.
17:39>> That's a real challenge. You know, if
17:40you've got an acquisition and there's
17:43the the main organization, but now
17:45they're pulling in another organization,
17:47often those cultures don't match. So, um
17:50I'm not sure I answered your question,
17:52but that's what
17:52>> No, I think that's right. Yeah. And I,
17:55uh, you mentioned Hort Schultzy. I I saw
17:57him speak a number of years ago, uh, for
18:01an extended period at a conference and I
18:04was so impressed. I sent our senior team
18:06to go do the Ritz Carlton training and
18:09it's just it's just ma, you know, it
18:11really is magic. What I was really happy
18:13is we were doing a lot of it and there
18:15were things we needed to tweak and
18:17document a little better differently and
18:19but it's it's really good stuff. So if
18:21anybody has a chance to send your team
18:22to go that Ritz Carl to train it's it's
18:24it's it's really good. But you were
18:26talking about mergers and acquisitions
18:28and clash of cultures and I can't tell
18:31you you know in the you know the 26
18:35years I've had this company and in my
18:38consulting and even when I was working
18:41in corporate America how many times oh
18:43we're buying your company because we
18:46love the culture here and you know what
18:48y'all do is amazing and unfortunately I
18:50think mergers rarely go well from the
18:53culture side uh and often more people
18:56than you would expect have to leave the
18:58bus basically in order for things
19:00ultimately to level out and that's
19:03expensive and timeconuming and just not
19:05very efficient. So while we're talking
19:07about that, how can HR make that change
19:10go better either on the due diligence on
19:12the front side or on the back side as uh
19:15as we integrate the two organizations? I
19:18really think it's a front side issue and
19:20I think that's something that executive
19:23teams really need to think about. um
19:26depending on the organization, you know,
19:28it may be a CEO CFO type thing that oh,
19:32we're vetting this company and looking
19:35to acquire them and it may not occur to
19:38them that HR needs to really be a
19:41partner in that process because um the
19:44issues you're talking about after the
19:46fact, you know, you're behind. So, they
19:49really need to be identified ahead of
19:51time and then HR can create a strategy.
19:55And let's take a quick break. Good
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21:11And now back to my conversation with
21:13Vienna Braun. So how important is that
21:17idea of looking forward and seeing the
21:20future and predicting what may happen uh
21:23and giving those kind of alternatives to
21:25a board.
21:27>> That's really important. And um you know
21:31from my perspective I'm used to thinking
21:33about how HR interfaces with legal
21:35because that's where I live. But as a
21:38board member I'm realizing how
21:40incredibly important it is for HR to
21:42interface with it because that is such a
21:46huge issue right now. When you think
21:49about moving forward, it almost
21:51inevitably involves new software, new
21:55technology, and it's an HR function. You
21:59know, to follow along, it's probably it
22:03who's recommending, hey, to move forward
22:05as an organization, we need to get rid
22:07of this HRIS system and put a new one
22:09in. or maybe we need a new system to do
22:13whatever we do whether it's mortgage
22:14loans or consumer loans or you know it's
22:17going to be different in different
22:18industries and um it's all well and good
22:22to have this beautiful new technology
22:24but people don't like change and it's
22:26really HR's role to roll out the
22:29training and follow up and make sure
22:32that people aren't doing workarounds you
22:34know uh a lot of us you know even with
22:37word processing for example I mean
22:38there's things that I'm sure word can do
22:40that I'm doing in a backwards way
22:42because nobody ever told me the right
22:44way to do it. Uh in a large organization
22:46with key software changes, you can't
22:48have people doing that. You need people
22:50to actually be trained and upskilled and
22:54that is squarely an HR function. So they
22:57need to be looking at that. Of course,
22:59we're all having conversations about AI
23:01and trying to figure out, okay, you
23:04know, where is that going to actually
23:06supplant workforce and then where are we
23:09going to need more sophisticated
23:11workforce elsewhere? Um, and HR is just
23:14critical to all those conversations.
23:17>> Yeah. And I think HR's
23:20especially with the AI conversation and
23:22I can see this being an important
23:23conversation with a board too to say
23:27we're walking this fine line between
23:30maximizing efficiency on the labor side
23:33which is always critical and preserving
23:37a culture that's been successful for us
23:39retaining our best talent. So we don't
23:42want to create this dark cloud over the
23:45organization. Is AI going to replace my
23:47job all the time? There's a, you know,
23:49that balance of showing some compassion
23:51for the people who whose skills are
23:54basically redundant or uh just, you
23:57know, are easily replaced by AI and
24:01deciding what as an organization our
24:03ethical commitment is. I've got this
24:05presentation I do on at conferences
24:06about the practical and ethical
24:08considerations in implementing AI and
24:10HR. And the thing people always want to
24:12know is, well, what should we do? I'm
24:15like, it's different for every
24:16organization. I mean, that your ethic
24:18what what's ethical for your
24:19organization is a decision y'all have to
24:21make in accordance with every all your
24:23other decisions in your in your your way
24:25whatever your organization's process for
24:26deciding what the right thing to do in a
24:28situation is, but you got to have these
24:30conversations and those need to be at
24:33the board level.
24:34>> Absolutely. And it's a tough balance. I
24:37mean, you're inevitably going to have
24:39some tough decisions. you know,
24:41organizations do have to restructure.
24:44Sometimes you do have to let people go.
24:47Um, hopefully HR, you know, can advocate
24:50for workers and say, "Hey, look, if
24:53people are losing a job through no fault
24:55of their own, let's have a generous
24:57severance package. Let's have assistance
25:00to help people find their next chapter."
25:03And also to your point um that should
25:06only be after there's some real
25:07discussion about hey can we upskill
25:10folks you know if they understand our
25:13culture and they care about the
25:15organization how do we keep them you
25:17know how can we move folks around and
25:19and take advantage of these folks who've
25:22been loyal to us and make sure that they
25:24stay with the organization so there's a
25:27lot of of sophisticated conversations to
25:29be had and again HR's So very important
25:33you know human capital drives business
25:36performance and HR you know they've in
25:40some organizations struggled to be
25:43recognized for what they bring to the
25:45table but you just you can't make it
25:47happen without good human resources. How
25:50important is data in communicating with
25:53a board? Because I mean a lot of what we
25:55talked about now is kind of this is what
25:58the market context looks like or this is
26:00what this and that. But in making those
26:02arguments, how important is data versus
26:05what we may see as just common sense or
26:08experience?
26:09>> Data is really important in in my
26:11experience. And I think that's simply
26:14because you've got board members coming
26:16from very different backgrounds. You
26:19know, you may have someone who was an
26:21executive but a completely different
26:22industry. You might have legal. You
26:24might have marketing. You might have all
26:27kinds, you know, finance. Clearly,
26:28you're going to have finance
26:29professionals. And somewhere along the
26:32way, someone's going to say, "Okay,
26:34thank you for the recommendation, but
26:36why, you know, what what is the
26:38competition doing or what other
26:41information can you give us?" If you're
26:43saying that we need to make a change to
26:46a policy or a practice,
26:49what's the reason for it? Um, you know,
26:51an example would be exit interviews. And
26:54certainly your chief HR person isn't
26:56likely to be the one doing the exit
26:58interviews, but hopefully that's the
27:00person synthesizing the data and
27:03figuring out if there's any lowhanging
27:05fruit. Like maybe this is a little
27:07granular, but this happened with an
27:09organization that I do some work with
27:11where they were doing exit interviews
27:13and realized, "Oh gosh, we're losing
27:15people because of a checkbox we checked
27:18when we implemented our 401k plan." That
27:21particular company, their 401k plan
27:23didn't allow hardship withdrawals. And
27:25people were actually leaving the
27:27organization because they wanted their
27:30money for a short-term purpose. And that
27:32was just an easy fix, but it came out of
27:36exit interview data.
27:38>> Yeah. And you know, I'm a big believer
27:40in everything from stay interviews to uh
27:43you know, net promoter uh score surveys
27:46with employees. Anything you any data
27:48you can get from the people who are
27:49sticking around and understanding why
27:50they are. And if they all tell you, I'm
27:52only sticking around because I haven't
27:54found my next job, that's a big red
27:56flag. And actually I did a I did a
27:58helped do kind of an HR intervention
28:00with a company or an organization down
28:01in Austin a few years ago and that's
28:03basically they had high turnover they
28:05some of their star performers had left
28:07and I came in and did and sat down with
28:10the rest of their staff one at a time
28:12and took a long time to do it and
28:15basically once I built you know the
28:17rapport and the trust they all said yeah
28:19I'm only here because I haven't found my
28:21next gig but as soon as I find it I'm
28:23out and uh and that was a sales job to
28:26that board to say, "Hey, this is what
28:30you're facing right now, and this is a
28:31leadership issue." And and I mean, I,
28:33you know, I've never been one not to
28:36step on toes. So, I pointed it directly
28:38basically at the person who brought me
28:39in and said, "Here's the problem. Here's
28:41what it really is." And, you know,
28:44universally and, you know, these are the
28:45things you need to really consider and
28:47look into. That kind of takes it back to
28:48that last question for that senior level
28:51HR person. What are the characteristics
28:53that would differentiate somebody who's
28:56going to be really good in that role as
28:58a senior HR leader dealing with a board?
29:02>> Well, to play off of your example, um,
29:05one thing that's going to distinguish a
29:08person, you know, dealing with, let's
29:10say, high turnover numbers is being open
29:15and being a collaborator. like the HR
29:17person probably in most organizations
29:20would attend the compensation committee
29:22board meeting and I've actually, you
29:26know, had that discussion with folks
29:28saying, "Hey, we're we're on your side.
29:30We're part of the organization. We all
29:32want this organization to thrive. We're
29:34not grading your paper. We're here as a
29:37resource." And so a successful chief HR
29:41exec is going to be someone who
29:43hopefully of course does have
29:45suggestions for us but also is open and
29:49might say look you know this is a high
29:51turnover number we've benchmarked it our
29:54competition is struggling as well uh
29:57here are some of the things we're
29:58hearing and let's have a conversation
30:01about what we can fix and and what you
30:04know we're just going to have to live
30:05with like again the turnover over issue.
30:08You are certainly going to get through
30:10the data a sense of certain groups of
30:14people saying, "Well, look, I want a
30:16hybrid role. You know, I'm not going to
30:18take a job unless I can be home in my
30:20pajamas two days a week." And then it's
30:23up to the organization. And you know, do
30:25you have roles like that or are you
30:27going to take a hard stance and say,
30:29"Sorry, we are a together teamwork, 5
30:33day a week in the office, you know,
30:35eight hours a day organization." Um, and
30:38if you know that about yourself, then
30:40you can start targeting your recruiting
30:43differently. Um, but again, long-winded
30:45answer to to a short question. Um, a
30:48successful HR person, you know, is going
30:50to be a trutht teller. whether it's good
30:53news or bad news, they're going to be
30:55collaborative. They will identify the
30:58problem, have their thoughts, but also
31:00be open to the board's either
31:02suggestions or just questions. And um I
31:06think somebody with that maturity and
31:08the ability to take constructive
31:10criticism and someone who's not scared
31:13to say, "Okay, this this is a problem
31:15and we need to tackle it." Someone who's
31:17not sweeping things under the rug. All
31:19of that is part of of someone who's
31:22going to be very successful in that
31:23role.
31:24>> Yeah. And going back to that idea of the
31:28black and white HR cop kind of thing
31:30versus being able to deal with
31:33ambiguity. Uh that seems like a you know
31:36and at senior leadership level you're
31:38presented a lot of options. And you know
31:42if you can step away from what you've
31:44always done and find ways to think
31:48differently about uh a circumstance
31:51you know and I think that's one of the
31:53advantages of a board whether you know
31:54the boards I serve on whether it's
31:57chamber for commerce or you know the
31:59state HR association or some other
32:01nonprofits I care about having somebody
32:04from you know with a legal background
32:05somebody with a manufacturing background
32:08you know different board members who
32:09have different backgrounds you know
32:11Sometimes you get some, you know, ideas
32:13that just aren't appropriate for that
32:15your environment, but they don't know
32:17that. And you got to figure out how to
32:18probably say that in a diplomatic way,
32:20uh, or just thank them for that. But,
32:22uh, you know, sometimes you can't just
32:25write it off just because, well, that
32:26wouldn't work here or that, you know,
32:29sometimes you've got to be able to think
32:31through things and maybe there's some
32:32kernel of wisdom in what what that
32:35board's going to give you. You got to be
32:36able to accept those those things like
32:37you said and and then put all that, you
32:40know, make that chicken pot pie with all
32:42those ingredients into something that
32:44works for your organization.
32:45>> Exactly. And yeah, we live in an
32:48increasingly complex world and that
32:52compliance mindset. I mean certain
32:55issues obviously there's a right or a
32:57wrong a black or a white but so many
33:00things that you deal with at a higher
33:02level are very much in a gray area. By
33:06way of example you know one of the
33:08organizations I work with is struggling
33:10with the LinkedIn presence of higher
33:14level executives. They want posts. They
33:18want people to put themselves out there
33:19as thought leaders but somebody
33:22>> but not at a Coldplay concert. Well, not
33:24at a Coldplay concert, that's for sure.
33:26Uh, but it's even way more subtle than
33:28that. You know, someone had posted,
33:32>> I guess, a bit of a what I'll
33:34characterize as a leite post like eh
33:36technology who needs it and that wasn't
33:39the look that that organization was
33:41going for and how to manage that because
33:45that's going to be an HR function. Um,
33:48and that's not going to be a yes or no.
33:50Um, I don't think it's workable to tell
33:53executives, oh, you have to like run
33:55your LinkedIn post through a committee.
33:57That's not workable. So, you know,
33:59there's going to need to be either a
34:00policy or some kind of a communication
34:04at a training just saying, "Hey, stop
34:06and think. Is there a subtext to what
34:09you're posting? We want you to be out
34:12there, but we don't want you out there
34:14in a controversial way." And of course,
34:16that's going to vary from organization
34:18to organization. Like in my world, uh,
34:20among lawyers, some lawyers want to be
34:23controversial. That gets them more
34:24clicks. But if you're posting as, you
34:27know, the head of HR for Target, you
34:30might want to be a little more careful.
34:32So, um, there's there's a very complex
34:35world out there and and the answers are
34:38not always going to be easy.
34:39>> Well, and the answers are never easy.
34:42That's why we have lawyers. So, and
34:44that's why you get so much money for
34:46every hour. So, you're worth it. And
34:48thank you for this halfhour uh VNA. I
34:51really do appreciate your time and this
34:53was a great conversation. Thanks for
34:54joining again.
34:55>> Oh, it's delightful to visit with you,
34:57Mike. Thank you for inviting me
34:59>> and thank you for listening. If you
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35:31And I'm Mike Coffee. As always, don't
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