Full transcript
0:00Good morning and good afternoon wherever
0:03you are.
0:04I'm Mike Coffee and welcome to
0:06managerial discretion and handling a
0:08workplace conflict.
0:11If you listen to my podcast, you know
0:13that this is a presentation that I put
0:16together for Big Country Charm in
0:19Abilene, Texas last fall for their
0:20conference. They asked for this specific
0:22topic
0:23and I thought, well, I don't have
0:25anything on that, but I'll put it
0:26together
0:27uh and you know, and you know, help them
0:29out. And then I just threw it on my list
0:31of like 18 or 19 topics that I speak for
0:34I speak at conferences on, you know,
0:36just for SHRM conferences or HR
0:38associations or whatever and
0:41it has become it's my biggest topic this
0:44year. Everybody is asking me to do this
0:46one, which is a surprise and it's not
0:48because it's the topic cuz they've not
0:50most of them haven't heard it and so uh
0:53so I think it's really interesting to uh
0:56that this is a topic that really hit a
0:58nerve with uh a lot of HR practitioners.
1:01So
1:02uh I'm excited to do it and um
1:06this it is pre-approved for HRCI and
1:08SHRM recert credit
1:10and I'll give the information for how to
1:12receive that credit later on in the
1:14webinar.
1:15Uh
1:16we will have the recording on our
1:18website so that people can watch it
1:20after the recording as well.
1:23So let's get started. So what do we want
1:25to talk about today?
1:28>> [sighs]
1:28>> First of all
1:30what are we talking about with as far as
1:31discretion and managerial discretion?
1:34Uh
1:35and this is a hard place for a lot of
1:36managers and for a lot of HR people if
1:38I'm being honest because
1:40um there is a trend uh or there's a
1:45faction in HR maybe the better way to
1:47say it that likes very black and white
1:51rules with no ambiguity.
1:54Um I don't think that works when you're
1:56managing people. I don't even like the
1:57term managing people. I like leading
1:59people, but I'm not sure we can really
2:00manage people. Um but we'll talk about
2:04how discretion affects
2:06uh how
2:08the
2:10workplace is seen as professional and it
2:12can have impacts on compliance as well.
2:15Um well, obviously how gossip erodes
2:18culture. I think that's a not a surprise
2:19to any of us. Uh and how it can create
2:22liability. And then what can we, you
2:24know, I'm hoping if you're an HR profes-
2:26if you're a supervisor, take this away
2:27and you know, frontline s- and most of
2:29us are some level some level of
2:31supervisor. But if you're an HR
2:33professional or you're looking for
2:36training for your managers,
2:38we'll we're going to talk about the
2:39things that frontline supervisors,
2:41especially, but any any body in a in a
2:44uh direct management role, uh
2:47ne- how they can approach what they
2:49share, what they don't share, how they
2:51can evaluate what to share in a
2:52different situation.
2:54And then when they can't share or an
2:56employee wants more information than we
2:57can give,
2:59how to how to handle that. And I've got
3:01a pretty
3:02basic little uh tool that you're going
3:04to hear over and over probably
3:05throughout this the webinar, but I think
3:07it makes sense and it's something simple
3:10that your managers can digest and
3:11remember. And then we'll talk about key
3:14legal expectations under federal law.
3:16And I say Texas law, but I think it most
3:18of it's common law stuff, so it's it's
3:19applicable to most states. But I'm not
3:21researching all states.
3:24So, why do we really care about this?
3:27Okay, conflict is natural in our
3:29organizations, right? So,
3:31it isn't a surprise
3:34when it's not even a bad thing when
3:36there's conflict. Um
3:38if we have an environment where people
3:41can safely and productively
3:44share different ideas,
3:46um where they can challenge even
3:49organizational norms
3:51in a respectful manner and in a but, you
3:54know, where they feel comfortable doing
3:56that or saying, "Hey, there's a better
3:58way to do this or have we thought about
4:00this product or this service changing
4:02this to meet these clients' needs?" That
4:04makes us stronger as an organization.
4:07And if it's managed well, it can lead to
4:09stronger, more productive teams.
4:12But then, sometimes we have conflict
4:14that's just from people rubbing up on
4:16each other the wrong way and sometimes
4:18literally, if we're being honest. Uh and
4:21that that kind of conflict can damage
4:24the organization.
4:26And sometimes it's just things in the
4:28organization. Maybe, you know, the
4:30economy is not on our side this year.
4:33And we're doing layoffs and everybody
4:35sees the writing on the wall and that
4:37creates some anxiety, which can lead to
4:40conflict and a lot of people just
4:41talking.
4:43And often, they don't have all the
4:44details of what they're talking about.
4:46Uh you know, it's it is a fact that our
4:49our politics you know, matches what's
4:52going on in our workplace. Uh and people
4:54do like to fill in the gaps when and
4:56when there's a vacuum, people are going
4:58to fill it in with what they think is
5:01the is the case. And that can
5:04that can negatively impact the
5:06organization, productivity, the work
5:08group, but it also
5:10puts a responsibility on managers to try
5:12to manage that and if they don't do it
5:14well, they're just adding they can add
5:16more gas to the fire. They can fracture
5:19trust in the organization.
5:21And then, so sometimes they need to
5:23share information
5:25uh in a certain way
5:27to calm leaders down or em- employees
5:31down and get them refocused on the right
5:33thing.
5:34Uh but then, if they overshare or they
5:37mishandle sensitive information, that
5:39can produce,
5:41you know,
5:42problems internally for the
5:43organization, cultural problems, but
5:45also concerns about retaliation, or
5:48harassment claims,
5:50uh
5:51invasions of privacy, things like that.
5:52So,
5:53walking this this delicate line uh can
5:56be a real challenge, and I think that's
5:58one of the reasons that this this this
6:00topic has been such a
6:02a big
6:03uh
6:05attractor for my for the conferences I
6:08speak at this year. So, let's talk about
6:10gossip. When I'm talking about gossip,
6:12I'm talking about typically the informal
6:15or uh unofficial sharing of information,
6:19whether it's accurate or inaccurate,
6:21that's outside of someone's role to
6:24share, or the information is not even
6:26relevant to their roles or
6:28responsibilities.
6:29And
6:31some people do it, and we'll talk about
6:33this, to stir stuff up, and other people
6:36do it uh cuz they're they're truly
6:37trying to be helpful. And so, and
6:39managers fall into traps on both sides
6:41of that.
6:42And we see this a lot in things like
6:44sexual harassment investigations.
6:46Um if or other kinds of complaints
6:49against one employee between one
6:51employee or another employee.
6:53Um
6:54and sometimes gossip is kind of
6:56instigated as a weapon weapon against uh
6:59an individual uh you know, who you know,
7:03is on the other side of an issue, and
7:06unaddressed, that can definitely create
7:08a hostile work environment. We're going
7:10to talk about that.
7:12But,
7:13as most of you probably know, the most
7:16referred charge to the EEOC
7:19are retaliation claims.
7:21And
7:23if you're goss- if you've got an
7:24organization, and you got a situation
7:26where gossip is a uh
7:29a common thing, especially if it's
7:32targeting people who
7:35maybe they're not one of the cool kids,
7:37or they're somebody who, you know,
7:39made a complaint, or cooperated with an
7:41investigation, and people are talking
7:43about that and them and making
7:44assumptions or sharing information
7:46that's true but it's not relevant to the
7:48those people's jobs to do this.
7:52That can turn into a retaliation
7:53complaint pretty quickly. We'll talk a
7:55little bit more about how that happens.
7:57Um
7:59and then we have the other situation
8:01where gossip can catch on fire because
8:03we might have a strict no comment
8:06policy and while you're conducting
8:08investigation no comment is kind of the
8:10right overarching umbrella but how you
8:13say no comment, how you say I can't talk
8:16to you about that matters
8:19because it
8:21it get how you say it will impact how
8:23employees receive what you're saying and
8:26what they think the organization is
8:27really trying to do.
8:29Um
8:31So we're going to talk about something
8:32called you're going to hear many times
8:33reassure and redirect and that's what
8:36that's the big lesson.
8:38Uh I could do a if if if we just focus
8:41on that I did two I could do two slides
8:42on reassure redirect reassure redirect
8:45and I think you get most of the
8:46information out of this webinar that uh
8:49that we have but you know, we all do
8:51like to have reasons why we do what we
8:53do so the rest of the webinar is kind of
8:55building the blocks to support this to
8:57support my claim that that's the right
8:58thing to do.
9:00Um
9:01So that's kind of what we're talking
9:03about.
9:06So let's start with the cultural risks.
9:09Um
9:11If we have a culture that accepts gossip
9:14where people can
9:16um
9:17you know, they you know, it's we just we
9:19tolerate it. Um you know, if you listen
9:22to the podcast you probably heard me say
9:23John Amaechi re-quote John Amaechi uh
9:26British psychologist uh
9:29he says that your company's culture is
9:32defined by the worst behavior tolerated.
9:36And in a lot of organizations,
9:40we do have managers who are
9:41uncomfortable challenging gossip or
9:44directly addressing it. And you hear
9:46things like free speech and all this,
9:49which unless you're in a government
9:50entity,
9:51is not relevant to you, probably.
9:54Um so,
9:56if but if you've got this environment
9:58where
9:59you it's it's tolerated, we're going to
10:01listen to pe- you know, we're going to
10:02allow people to talk trash, uh
10:05uh whisper in the back you know, in the
10:07back corners of the room about somebody
10:08else.
10:10That's going to have a chilling effect
10:12on employees' willingness to bring real
10:14issues to management's attention.
10:17If if they fear people are going to
10:19they're you know, it's going to get out
10:20and there's going to be gossip about it
10:21or there's going to be reprisals from
10:23their work group or you know, they're
10:24not going to get invited to lunch.
10:26They're going to get excluded. They're
10:27going to not get involved in not be
10:29involved in uh workplace projects, the
10:32team projects. They're not going to get
10:33the information they need to do their
10:34jobs. Then they're going to be less
10:36likely to raise issues when they see
10:39them.
10:40And
10:42that could be
10:44result certainly in a legal challenge if
10:45they see something that's
10:47illegal or is a violation of Title VII,
10:50something like that.
10:52The and they're not willing to raise
10:53that or it's a compliance issue. That's
10:56going to be expensive, but and it could
10:58turn into legal issues, but beyond that,
11:01um
11:03if the culture gets eroded and people
11:06have the sense that
11:08the company doesn't have fair processes.
11:10Um and you know, the perception that and
11:14that your organization is fair and has
11:18processes we follow and we treat
11:20employees with respect, that builds that
11:22psychological safety we're always
11:23talking about. Uh
11:26and
11:28and so, when people turn to management,
11:30they raise an issue,
11:32how those leaders from that frontline
11:33supervisor to the investigators to HR to
11:37legal to executive level,
11:40how they handle that information and how
11:44how they respond to the the workplace
11:47about concerns about whatever the
11:48information is, but also
11:50how they decide what they share and what
11:52they don't, uh definitely is going to
11:55impact organizational culture. We just
11:56have to remember trust is fragile
11:59and we have to really handle it with
12:01care. Uh so there's there is this this
12:06push and pull between
12:08having a um
12:11being transparent, which was you know,
12:13the hot word that you hear all the time.
12:15We you know, we're a very transparent
12:16organization,
12:17but you can't always be transparent and
12:20sometimes if you're too transparent, it
12:22causes problems for
12:24uh
12:24for your organization.
12:26And
12:28if you're the complainant or your or the
12:31person accused of doing something wrong,
12:35how this is all handled
12:37will affect how you see the
12:40organization's respect for your dignity,
12:42for your privacy. And I think
12:46those things people often will not
12:49remember the details of a complaint so
12:52much as they will remember how people
12:53were treated. And during that or they'll
12:56be more concerned or more concerned
12:57about how people were treated. So we
12:58need to remember all of these things.
13:01Uh so
13:03we're going to get
13:04into how managers can help manage the
13:08chaos a little bit when things happen
13:10and reinforce company culture. And uh
13:14hopefully that'll be something that
13:17you know,
13:18we you can settle a lawsuit, but
13:20rebuilding culture after something's
13:22gone wrong is it can be pretty expensive
13:24and time-consuming.
13:26So what are we talking about when we say
13:27managerial discretion? Oh, by the way,
13:29all my images are
13:32uh
13:32uh created by ChatGPT. Uh not the not
13:35the webinar, but just the images. But,
13:38um
13:38they and as I If you've seen my AI
13:41presentations, I need to redo one of
13:43them because the graphics quality's
13:45gotten so much better and the computing
13:47quality's gotten so much better on AI.
13:50But, when I'm talking about managerial
13:51discretion, I'm choosing about how a
13:52manager chooses what, when, and how to
13:56share information.
13:58Um and there's times where they need to.
14:01Uh and now, discretion's not the same as
14:03secrecy. You can be transparent about a
14:06process
14:07without giving all the details about
14:10what's being generated in the process.
14:12And we have to have managers who
14:14understand
14:16when when I'm dealing with a gossip or
14:19employees just come to me and ask for
14:20information. Uh if we just say no
14:22comment or we just say we're not going
14:24to share anything,
14:25uh I I can't talk about that. That's
14:27what I often what we've told managers to
14:29say. Just tell them you can't talk about
14:30it. Well, I'm not sure that's always the
14:32right answer
14:34because again, if there's a vacuum,
14:36people are going to fill that vacuum
14:38with something else. And sometimes, I
14:40can't talk about it makes it sound a lot
14:42worse than it really is.
14:44Uh and they're going to often assume the
14:46worst.
14:47And the other big thing is that managers
14:49need to remember that they are agents of
14:51the employer. Okay? They represent the
14:55company to the employees.
14:57Um
14:57and if they make improper disclosures,
15:00they can expose the organization to real
15:02liability.
15:05And so, how do they How do we do this?
15:07Sometimes, they just, you know, they
15:08spill the tea. They overshare.
15:11Uh they discuss the particulars of
15:13complaints with people who are not
15:14involved in it and don't need to know
15:15that information.
15:17Uh they talk about the investigations
15:19that are going on. They make decision,
15:21you know, they you know, these are the
15:22decision the discipline decisions that
15:24we made and and at the end of the the
15:26investigation. You most employees don't
15:29need to know what you did. Even the
15:32complainant doesn't need to know most of
15:34the time what you did as an employer to
15:37rectify the situation.
15:39The question is is
15:41did the situation get fixed? And if it
15:43didn't, did that complaint feel
15:44comfortable coming back and making a uh
15:49a second complaint or saying hey, this
15:51is not this is not whatever you all did
15:52is not working. So we need you know, we
15:54can overshare and we can give too much
15:56information to people.
15:58Another thing leaders sometimes do is
15:59they vent to their subordinates or to
16:01their peers.
16:02They turn certain people into their
16:04confidant confidants. And so, you know,
16:09when you know, when I was in corporate
16:10America,
16:12you know, it was not uncommon especially
16:13if you're the HR guy and you've got
16:15friends who are managers in other
16:17departments, somebody will come knock on
16:19their knock on your door and say, "Hey,
16:20let me let's want to pick your brain or
16:22hey, can I vent?" And
16:25usually my response is yeah. Um but
16:29you have they have to be careful about
16:31what they share because if they're
16:32sharing to just another manager and
16:34complaining about something,
16:36they may make may may say things that
16:41aren't actually completely
16:43based in fact and maybe their opinions
16:45like I think HR ought to do this. And
16:47when they start saying that,
16:49they're now this manager who maybe is
16:53involved in an investigation
16:55uh as as you know, as a leader
16:58is is forecasting what HR is going to do
17:02or saying, you know, laying the
17:04groundwork to say,
17:05"I don't know what HR is going to do,
17:07but if they don't do this, they're not
17:08doing the right thing."
17:10Um
17:11or they get into a kind of public
17:13speculation talking to their team. If
17:15the team's involved in this conflict or
17:16an investigation, or something's going
17:18on, you know, uh I think HR is leaning
17:20toward termination is something you
17:22might hear, or I know HR is going to do
17:24the right thing.
17:25Uh and that which is fine right there,
17:27but then they'll say what the right
17:29thing is. Yeah, I'm sure they're going
17:30to do the right thing. You know, there's
17:32no way we're going to tolerate his
17:33behavior,
17:34uh or you know, I'm sure he'll just get
17:36a slap on the wrist. Those kind of
17:38things. So, those are all the ways that
17:40managers kind of step into it, and uh
17:44they kind of can fuel the conflict
17:46rather than resolve it.
17:48And then, if it's just just talk, it's
17:51one thing, but then they drop a message
17:53in Zoom, or Slack, or whatever you're
17:56using, or they drop an email to
17:57somebody,
17:58or just just for their own, you know, we
18:01we tell people to document, document,
18:02document, so they document, document,
18:04document, they create a Word document
18:05around the topic,
18:07and they put a lot of their own opinions
18:08in there.
18:10And that's all discoverable, and that
18:11could all be, you know, labeled exhibit
18:13A in in the civil trial, or criminal
18:16trial, and uh
18:19that's that that that just creates an
18:21obstacle for the employer
18:24and when, you know, the plaintiff's
18:25lawyer is saying, "Look, you know, your
18:26own manager said this." Well, that was
18:28his opinion. Well, he wrote it down, and
18:30now explain why his opinion's different
18:32from the company. So, he's not loyal to
18:33the company, is that what you're saying?
18:34Those kinds of things.
18:36So, we have to
18:38uh really get managers on the same page
18:42about how we do this. And of course, the
18:44obvious thing is, if you're not sure,
18:46don't say anything. Go talk to legal. Go
18:48talk to HR. Go talk to your ethics
18:50department. Whoever it is in your
18:52organization that's supposed to handle
18:54those kinds of things.
18:56And then, as I said earlier, poorly
18:59managed conflict can often lead to
19:01litigation. And poorly managed
19:03communication about conflict can lead to
19:06litigation, or just add fuel to the
19:08litigation. Um
19:11and if somebody's a complaint or they
19:14participated in a
19:17an investigation,
19:19they have a certain amount of legal
19:20protection.
19:21And gossip or negative commentary about
19:24them,
19:26uh that's fueled with in in in changes
19:28in the how they're treated in by their
19:30peers,
19:31that can that can be retaliation under
19:33Civil Rights Act Title VII of Civil
19:35Rights Act of 1964.
19:37And so because if that will dissuade a
19:41reasonable worker from making uh or
19:44supporting a discrimination complaint,
19:47uh
19:48it could you know that
19:51gossip, that environment you've allowed
19:53is basically, you know, a retaliatory
19:56hostile type work environment. And if
19:59that's the way things are in the
20:01organization, that's going to be a
20:02really negative
20:04uh issue when if you do end up in some
20:07litigation.
20:09Because when employees says, "Yes, well,
20:12I you know, I I made this complaint and
20:15then this I was frozen out and everybody
20:17was talking about me." Or
20:20if you've created a whole environment
20:22and another employee who did know
20:23something and probably should have
20:26brought up an issue and a concern and
20:29there's some sort of litigation, the
20:32employer is now going to be in a
20:34position where the you know, the they're
20:36going to answer questions from the
20:38plaintiff's lawyer like, "Well, you
20:40know, you've had this this whole
20:42environment where people weren't willing
20:44to step forward and say something
20:45because of how you've treated these
20:46things and the kind of behavior you've
20:48tolerated. You've let people talk trash
20:50about one another.
20:52Uh and in these other cases, this
20:54employee saw that people were treated
20:56differently. So, why would they step
20:58forward to say something? So, employer,
21:01uh even if this was um something that
21:04had you known about, you you have tried
21:05to fix, these employees weren't willing
21:07to come forward because how you how you
21:09treated people in the past. And um
21:13then
21:14if gossip
21:16is wrong, if it's said with malice,
21:20uh is poorly communi- you know,
21:22poorly communicated words
21:25uh
21:25come out and they're not exactly
21:27accurate and it looks like we're
21:31retaliating against this person or we're
21:32mad they made this this claim,
21:34uh
21:35that can turn into a defamation claim
21:37and those are
21:40uh
21:40you know, every state's got some
21:42defamation law and uh
21:45if it's it's not a high it's not a high
21:47bar often to prove that something is is
21:49defama- defamation under state law.
21:52So, there's a whole matrix of potential
21:57issues, whether it's retaliation,
21:59hostile work environment, defamation. I
22:02talked about discovery exposure,
22:03something you know, if you're putting
22:04anything in writing. And then other
22:06confidentiality uh concerns between
22:10the Americans with Disabi- the
22:12Americans with Disabilities Act uh or or
22:14GINA, those kind of laws have their own
22:18confidentiality expectations. And then
22:20you've got
22:22we'll talk about this in a minute, Title
22:23VII, which has kind of a
22:25different take on confidentiality.
22:27And then you've got state common law
22:29torts that you need to be worried about
22:30and the National Labor Relations Act
22:33because you got a whole other issue with
22:35NLRA uh that we'll get into about
22:37confidentiality that suggests that,
22:40well,
22:41not everything can be confidential uh
22:43strictly held confidential. So, we'll
22:45have to get into that. So, it's it's
22:47kind of a little minefield for
22:48employers. So, let's talk about this
22:50confidentiality.
22:52Under Title VII
22:54uh
22:56employ- you know, it just prohibits
22:58retaliation and discrimination and
23:01employers must avoid treatment that
23:04discriminates against someone for
23:06opposing discrimination.
23:08Uh
23:09so, and that includes creating or
23:11allowing an environment where an
23:13employee uh who participates in an
23:15investigation or reports conduct is
23:18identified, ostracized, mocked, or
23:21otherwise treated poorly by their
23:23co-workers.
23:24Um
23:26and
23:27the EEOC's document promising practices
23:31for preventing harassment suggest
23:34policies that explicitly state
23:36protection of confidentiality to the
23:38greatest extent possible. So, those are
23:40the important words, to the greatest
23:42extent possible. What does that really
23:44mean? The
23:45the issue is
23:48you can't always guarantee uh
23:50confidentiality, right? Because we know
23:53that
23:56there are certain people who are going
23:57to need to know to make a business
23:58decision what happened.
24:00And then, there's always the risk of
24:02litigation.
24:04And then, nothing is confidential. There
24:05is no off-the-record conversation if you
24:08get a subpoena or you get called to a
24:09deposition or to testify.
24:11And so, we can't promise
24:14pure confidentiality.
24:17But of course, there are other things
24:20where you know, we treat it reasonably
24:23confidentially, and we certainly don't
24:24tell people who don't have a business
24:25need to know.
24:27Uh the Americans with Disabilities Act
24:29certainly defines specific things that
24:31employers are expected to keep
24:32confidential.
24:34But
24:36then, when we're having
24:37conducting investigation or trying to
24:39collect information about what's going
24:40on with, you know, maybe the gossip has
24:43come to a manager's attention, and
24:44they're trying to figure out what the
24:45the veracity of what's being said and
24:48and what's going on,
24:50our gut instinct is to tell the
24:51employees, and
24:53you know, this is confidential, you
24:54can't talk to anybody else about it.
24:58But,
24:59first of all, they're going to anyway,
25:01but beyond that, the National Labor
25:03Relations Act gets involved here, and
25:05employees have a right to discuss the
25:10terms and conditions of their
25:11employment,
25:13which often can, you know, melt into
25:15what some of these conflicts are, or
25:17even complaints about how people are
25:18treated in the organization.
25:21And it's an unfair labor practice to
25:23tell employees they cannot discuss
25:25those kind of issues. And so, we have to
25:28go through this whole process where
25:31we have to say, you know, the in the
25:33best interest of the organization,
25:35it is better that you keep this
25:36confidential so that we can, you know,
25:38make a a decision that isn't affected,
25:43and, you know, get gather the
25:45information without concern that
25:48it's being, um, filtered or colored by,
25:53you know, people who uh, maybe,
25:56you know, are sharing information they
25:58shouldn't, and at the same time,
26:01say, you know,
26:03tell them, you know, that's the best
26:05thing, but avoid telling them, you
26:06cannot talk to anybody else about it,
26:08because often
26:09that's not going to be a practice that
26:11you can really, uh, get away with with
26:14the NLRB.
26:16So, what do we tell managers to do?
26:19Um,
26:20the manager's primary responsibility is
26:22to resolve conflict via direct factual
26:26discussion with the parties involved,
26:29not through gossip or unnecessary
26:31sharing sensitive or personal
26:33information. Seems obvious, right? But,
26:35managers have this tendency to want to
26:38build
26:39team, right? I want everybody to feel
26:41like they're included. I want to, you
26:43know, a lot of managers want their
26:45workplaces to be democracies until they
26:47don't. And, but then they've already
26:49started down that path. But, managers
26:52should look for opportunities when they
26:53hear gossip to disrupt it by reassuring
26:57employees that the company takes
26:59violations of policy, violations of law
27:02seriously. And that includes policies
27:04about how we treat one another, how we
27:07um you know, what our values are and how
27:08we operate according to our values, uh
27:11those kinds of things. So, we remind
27:13employees of those things and then
27:16redirect them. So, we reassure them the
27:18company takes this seriously, we have
27:19processes in place to do these things,
27:22to make sure that people are treated
27:24fairly, to make sure we have compliance
27:25with our policies,
27:26and then redirect the employee. The best
27:28thing you can do in this situation, if
27:31you don't have new information that you
27:32know firsthand to share with me,
27:34is go back and do your job and trust
27:38this process that the company is
27:40undergoing to resolve this this
27:43conflict, to understand what happened,
27:44to investigate this. Uh but, so it's
27:46reassure, we have a policy,
27:49we're taking it seriously, we're
27:50following through on it, and you will
27:52never know all the details for what what
27:54drove our decisions.
27:56And redirect them.
27:58And the best thing you can do is support
28:00your team by doing a really great job.
28:03And
28:04if you get if you experience something
28:06or you learn of information that is that
28:09you think that I as a leader need to
28:11know or that would affect this
28:13investigation, that's where you raise
28:14your hand and bring it up.
28:16Um
28:17but, never uh is
28:21you know, do do we want managers
28:22participating in or
28:25uh
28:26encouraging
28:27employees to
28:29you know, participate in a rumor mill or
28:32to to gossip or you know, just certainly
28:34to treat anybody uh differently because
28:37they participated in one of these
28:39um one of these
28:42you know, gossip fires.
28:44So, and the other thing they need to do
28:45is document conversations when they come
28:47to their attention
28:49but reflecting only factual information,
28:51not their opinions. Avoiding using
28:54emails or messaging platforms to vent or
28:57discuss sensitive conflict sensitive,
29:00you know, in casual forums. Just avoid
29:03putting stuff in writing. I mean, it's
29:05you know, it's litigation prep 101,
29:07litigation avoidance 101, but
29:10don't put stuff in writing in emails,
29:12Slack. Don't get in your large language
29:14model to GPT or Claude or whatever you
29:17use and and and lay out the scenario.
29:20Here's what Here's what's happened and
29:22what should I do? Because that's all
29:24discoverable as well. And so, if we're
29:27using AI as our as our business coach,
29:31just know that you're writing it down,
29:33it's discoverable. You know, you may
29:35have your, you know,
29:37Claude or Open AI may get a subpoena at
29:41some point for their records of all your
29:43interactions. And they're going to sit
29:45out there. They're going to be there.
29:47So, here's an example.
29:49Tim was fired after an investigation
29:51determined that he sexually harassed
29:53Kathy.
29:55Another employee is asking if it is true
29:57that Tim was caught stealing. So, Tim
29:59was fired.
30:00We haven't told that the whole anybody
30:02why he was fired. And quite honestly,
30:04most of them don't need to know, but the
30:06rumor mill started. And so, when a
30:10third-party employee is saying, "Hey, I
30:12heard Tim got fired. Was it cuz he was
30:14stealing?"
30:16And so, you know,
30:18the inappropriate responses are a
30:20million, right? No, he wasn't stealing.
30:22It was a harassment issue.
30:24Or he was hired for He was fired for
30:26sexually harassing Kathy. Well, that's
30:28not good.
30:29HR found his behavior inappropriate, so
30:32they had to let him go.
30:34Or there was an investigation and it
30:35didn't look good for him.
30:37Or it wasn't theft, but we don't fire
30:39people for minor stuff. Those are all
30:41things employers should not say cuz it's
30:44uh that the manager should not tell
30:45anybody cuz it's none of their business.
30:48But what a manager should say is, "I
30:50can't discuss the details of any
30:52personnel matter. What I can say is that
30:55the company addressed the situation
30:56consistent with our policies.
30:59If you have concerns about anybody
31:01else's conduct, please bring it to me.
31:03We take it seriously." Or "We don't
31:05share information about investigations
31:07or discipline, but concerns are handled
31:08seriously and appropriately. If you have
31:11concern about others' conduct, please
31:13bring it to me."
31:14Or even "I understand the curiosity, but
31:17it wouldn't be fair or respectful to
31:19discuss someone else's employment
31:21situation. If you have any concerns
31:23about other people's conduct, please
31:25bring it to me."
31:27Or
31:28you know, "I understand your curiosity,
31:29but just like if you were part of an
31:32investigation and maybe you made a
31:34complaint or you were a recipient of a
31:36complaint,
31:37you wouldn't want people talking out of
31:39school about that circumstance
31:40regardless of what the outcome was. And
31:43we want to extend that same respect to
31:45every member of the team, so I'm sure
31:47you understand that. And if you ever
31:49have a concern about anything that
31:51actually is going on that's in you know,
31:53that's a violation of policy or law or
31:55just something that makes you very
31:57uncomfortable, bring it to me. I will
31:59take it seriously." So those are the
32:01kind of responses that um
32:05employers need to be trained to do. It's
32:08that whole reassure and redirect
32:09process.
32:11Uh they need to remember they were they
32:13were
32:14they reflect the company to the
32:15employees and anything they say is the
32:18company telling the employee something.
32:20And so they need to be cautious in how
32:23they do it and it just needs to always
32:25go back to
32:26uh company has policies, we'll follow
32:29them.
32:30You can have faith and trust that and
32:33redirect them.
32:35Just you know, best thing you can do is
32:36do your job, and if anything else comes
32:38up, or there's ever a circumstance where
32:40you're you're concerned about something,
32:44I will take it seriously, just like I'm
32:45we took this this other matter
32:47seriously. Please bring it to me.
32:50And so, before a manager shares
32:51anything, maybe a maybe a senior leader
32:54outside of their food chain is asking
32:56for information, right? And so, does
32:59this person really have a legitimate
33:00business to need to know this
33:02information, or they just curious? Are
33:04they just, you know, want to, you know,
33:07get the scoop on what's going on?
33:09And then, is what I'm about to share a
33:12verifi- a verifiable fact, or is it my
33:15interpretation interpretation, my
33:17opinion,
33:19uh or my emotion that I'm sharing?
33:21And if it is, don't do that for sure.
33:24Uh and if if they have a legitimate
33:27business needs, and I'm actually
33:29sharing verifiable facts, uh
33:33if this was trea- repeated publicly,
33:36would it harm
33:37the trust in the organization, open
33:39legal exposure, or embarrass people who
33:42were involved?
33:43And
33:44if if any of those are,
33:47you know,
33:48true, you know, that they don't have
33:51reasons to share this information,
33:53they the manager, even if it's an
33:55upper-level person, should redirect that
33:57person to HR, to ethics, or whoever it
34:01is in your organization that's handling
34:02that, or to their peer in your in your
34:04in your
34:05uh supervisory chain.
34:08It shouldn't be
34:10uh well, this guy's the CFO, and he's
34:12asking me for this, so I'm going to give
34:13him that information. That's not the
34:15manage- you know, first of all, the CFO
34:17shouldn't do that, but we've all been in
34:18organizations where maybe maybe not all
34:20of us, but I've certainly been seeing
34:22organizations where um
34:25C-suite or or more senior managers um
34:30did feel comfortable going to somebody
34:32else's reports and saying, "Hey, uh tell
34:34me about this situation or give me the
34:36scoop what's going on here. I you know,
34:38I need I need to understand this." Well,
34:40it's not my job as a frontline
34:41supervisor to know whether you need that
34:43information really or not, but somebody
34:45up my food chain probably does and so I
34:48will refer them up the food chain or
34:50refer them to HR and and do it that way.
34:57What managers sometimes do is they fall
34:59into the trap of trying to
35:03um share details
35:05that they shouldn't share, but
35:08you know,
35:10sometimes it's to defend the company's
35:12decision. Yeah, well, you know, if
35:14somebody's upset about something the
35:15company decided and there's stuff
35:19there's insider baseball sometimes that
35:20managers know that employees ought not
35:23know for whatever reason, whether it's
35:25privacy,
35:27a company policy concerns, uh
35:30just proprietary information about what
35:32the company is is dealing with in a
35:34given time.
35:35And so that but they want to share
35:36information so that the employees who
35:38think this is unfair or whatever's
35:40decided or they just got the wrong
35:42reasons that they're applying to it,
35:44they want to defend the company's
35:45decision and so
35:48they share information they shouldn't
35:49share.
35:50Or sometimes they hear gossip and
35:52they're like, "Oh, that's not right. Let
35:54me tell you what happened." Just uh you
35:56know, squash this gossip. Well, again,
35:59that's sharing information that can come
36:01back and and and and bite us and
36:04it's not that frontline supervisor's not
36:06that manager's job to to do that. What
36:10they need to do is reassure, redirect,
36:13okay, you know,
36:15uh
36:16and not even saying this is correct or
36:17not, just saying this isn't involved you
36:20and it's really inappropriate that you
36:22know, that that people outside of
36:25directly not involved with this are are
36:28talking about it. They you know, they
36:31they
36:32typically do not have all the facts.
36:34We've got company policies, we've got a
36:36process we use to
36:38you know, investigate these kind of
36:39complaints or whatever it was.
36:41And
36:43we take it seriously. So, if you ever
36:44have an issue, you can bring you know,
36:46the facts to me or to HR and they will
36:49investigate it and treat it with the
36:51same level of confidentiality to the
36:54extent they can and respect and
36:55compassion
36:57as we're treating this matter here. And
37:00you know, we do not want to have none of
37:01us want to work in a in a in a
37:03environment where where people are
37:06speculating about one another all the
37:08time. The best thing you can do is do
37:10your best to create a you know, be part
37:12of a healthy work environment and do
37:14your job. Push the team forward, help
37:16the team be successful.
37:19And sometimes they do it just to signal
37:20moral judgment.
37:21Uh you know, uh
37:23sometimes our managers can be
37:24performative formative a little bit and
37:28uh they want to they want to be seen as
37:30one of the guys or one of the team and
37:33they're no longer one of the team, but
37:34we don't always do a great job of
37:36training managers that there's a
37:38difference between being an individual
37:40contributor on the team and being a
37:42manager or supervisor. And uh
37:46yeah, it's
37:47you can't you know, we see it in the the
37:49old TV show The Office, you know, the
37:51Michael Scott kind of syndrome where you
37:54want to be everybody's friend and so you
37:56get it you fall into that trap of uh
37:59of you know, wanting to be a peer and
38:02that's not always the way to go either.
38:06So, what can I say instead? We've talked
38:08about a few of these. We don't share
38:10information, but concerns are handled
38:12seriously. If you have concerns about
38:13workplace misconduct, bring them
38:15forward. All those kinds of things.
38:18Um but don't share
38:21uh
38:22you know, information with people who
38:23don't have a real need to know and
38:26uh don't share details
38:28uh uh
38:29in order to defend the company, correct
38:31facts of gossip with facts, or signal
38:33moral judgment. And for Pete's sake, if
38:36you're ever concerned about what to do,
38:38the manager should go to HR or legal and
38:41seek the advice seek, you know, their
38:43direction.
38:46And then, again, we don't train managers
38:47very well. Um
38:50But we've a little emotional
38:52intelligence will go a long way in these
38:54circumstances because
38:58we as managers as as just as people,
39:02when somebody comes to us with a
39:03question, sometimes
39:05we get we get angry, right?
39:07Um
39:09cuz maybe
39:10we know a little bit more about what's
39:11going on, or we think we know a little
39:13bit more of what's going on, and we uh
39:17let our own emotions
39:18uh drive how we respond to
39:22the situation and what employees say.
39:24So, maybe we don't as a manager think
39:27this investigation was conducted well,
39:29or we don't like the outcome of it. And
39:31then, so, now the gossip mill's burning,
39:34and people are coming out to us,
39:35and we
39:37if we're not cautious, we'll respond in
39:39the moment.
39:41And so, we need to treat teach managers
39:43to pause before you speak.
39:46Allow yourself a moment to collect your
39:48thoughts and reflect on this other
39:49person's demeanor. That's the core of
39:52uh
39:53of emotional intelligence is being able
39:55to read what's going on with this
39:57person. What are they What's What's
39:58really driving the behavior, or in this
40:01case, the question or the comment that
40:02they're feeding me.
40:03Um so, we may realize that
40:07from you know, I'm getting triggered
40:09here. Why is it? And uh
40:12And so, you may have to tell yourself,
40:14you know, I want to
40:16I want to set the record straight, but
40:19that would be a breach of trust. That's
40:20outside of my responsibility.
40:22Um employee ask a question and they're
40:24sitting there waiting for an answer and
40:26they're being quiet and you feel like
40:28you've got to just kind of throw up and
40:30fill the gap with some words and
40:33um
40:35we have to avoid that urge of just
40:37filling the gap. Just saying, here's
40:40what the straight answer is. This is
40:42what the script says.
40:44And then we be quiet and just say that's
40:46the that's you know, that's what it
40:48that's
40:49what the company's doing. This is what
40:50the expectations of you are.
40:53Go back to work.
40:54And um
40:56and then they need to um
40:59avoid the the the trap of being the hero
41:01for the team. Nobody's going to do
41:03something like this to somebody on my
41:04team and get away with it.
41:06Uh
41:07because again, it's emotional, but it's
41:08also
41:10uh just taking that person's that
41:12manager's objectivity away when they you
41:15know, as far as
41:17you know, when the next
41:19allegation's made, much less the current
41:21investigation or whatever. The next
41:23concern is risen.
41:25This you know, certain employees are
41:26going to say, yeah, he's going to defend
41:28the team or she's going to you know,
41:31always push back against HR cuz you
41:33know, their policies are dumb. She said
41:36so.
41:37Those kinds of things.
41:39And so we have to acknowledge our
41:40emotion without indulging in it and then
41:44de-escalate the tension.
41:46Um
41:47you know, focus on how do we move
41:49forward, not turn it into
41:52a session about you or your feelings or
41:55anything like that as a manager.
41:57Um and then
42:00maybe this we need to ask another
42:02question of this employee. So
42:06you seem very concerned about this and
42:08you're not directly involved.
42:10What's going on there?
42:13And maybe the employee tells you
42:15something
42:17that you did need to know.
42:19You know, maybe there's an allegation
42:21that this person uh
42:24bullied, you know, was a bully to
42:26somebody else in the organization.
42:28And maybe this employee is legitimately
42:30concerned or
42:33if not legitimately, you know,
42:34tangentially, there's you know, there's
42:36you know, they want to know
42:38what's going on. And maybe they tell
42:40you, "Well, yeah, you know,
42:43these allegations are made against uh
42:44Pete and for
42:46you know, Pete's been taking my lunch
42:48money every day for the last 6 months.
42:51Um and so now
42:53thing now there now I've got something
42:55that's not gossip. I've got this direct
42:57information from this person about Pete.
43:01And this is something HR or whoever's,
43:03you know, whoever's uh
43:05has some authority in this investigation
43:07process need may need to know. And we
43:09may need to take this person over to HR
43:12and have a conversation. But now we're
43:14not dealing with gossip. We're not you
43:16know, we're talking about this person's
43:17direct experience. And
43:19so we don't want to just shut down the
43:21conversations altogether. We want to
43:23understand why they're having this Why
43:25is this an issue for them? And sometimes
43:26you just get the feeling that yeah, that
43:28they're just being nosy. And people are
43:29nosy. We like to you know, we like to
43:31get the scoop.
43:32But sometimes if we're curious and we
43:35breathe through it,
43:37we stop and say there's something else
43:38going on here. Let me dig in deeper
43:40around what that issue is.
43:43And so
43:46just to recap the communications best
43:48practices uh you know, first of all, the
43:51first rule is
43:52if whatever you said or whatever you
43:54published especially is was on the front
43:58page of your company intranet, you know,
44:01uh the next morning, would that be a
44:03problem?
44:04Uh used to be the newspaper front page
44:06of the newspaper test, but of course I'm
44:08old enough there's enough gray hair here
44:10to remember when we actually you know,
44:12had newspapers delivered to our homes as
44:14like actual pieces of paper. Um but you
44:18know, if it's on the front page of the
44:19internet or the front page of the
44:20newspaper if it was out there that this
44:24was related to you
44:26uh you know, that you'd said this thing
44:28what would that mean? What would that
44:29mean for the company? What would that
44:30mean for you? For your uh for your
44:32relationships in the organization, the
44:34trust you built with your employees and
44:35the rest of the team. So uh that's
44:39the overarching rule, but then here's
44:41just a little cheat sheet. We've said
44:43most of this. Lean towards less
44:45information, not more.
44:47Uh reinforce the sensitivity of the
44:49information. Please treat this as
44:51private.
44:52That's very different than saying you
44:53cannot talk about it. Uh
44:56uh restate the professional expectations
44:58at every opportunity. Our expectations
45:01are that we treat each other with
45:02respect. Uh that we all show up every
45:05day to move the organization forward. We
45:07work as one with compassion and respect.
45:10Uh those kinds of things.
45:12Uh if it's ambiguous at all, talk to HR
45:15or legal. Assure employees that
45:16retaliation will never be tolerated and
45:19and retaliation doesn't mean just you
45:21know you're not going to you know
45:25be mean to this person and overtly. It
45:28does means it also means that you're
45:29going to you're not you're not going to
45:31change your behaviors towards them. But
45:33in in in our work senses we're not going
45:35to exclude them from meetings they need
45:37to be a part of. We're not going to
45:40insist that any any right I see this all
45:42the time. Um I refuse to have any verbal
45:45conversations with that person. Anything
45:47that they want they must give me in
45:48writing. No, we ain't doing that. That's
45:50not how we do business here. Uh if
45:52you've got a problem with this person uh
45:55in a specific when you've got specific
45:57facts then let's sit down and have a
45:58conversation.
46:00But no, we're not going to do that. Oh,
46:02I refuse to, you know, talk to in you
46:04know, employees who say this about the I
46:05refuse to take any direction from my
46:07supervisor. I asked that they give it to
46:08me all in writing and they have to do
46:10that. No, they don't.
46:11Your job is to work with uh the
46:14organization with with your teammates
46:17and uh if
46:19and do what your manager tells you.
46:21Uh but, anyway, uh got off on a tangent
46:23there, shocker. Uh and document only
46:26facts and observable behavior, not your
46:28instincts, not your gut, not your
46:30feelings about stuff. And then, the
46:32exact opposite of those things. We've
46:34we've pretty much talked about most of
46:35those. We don't want to dig too deep
46:37into the things that are emotional
46:40driven, speculation,
46:42um your own opinions about what people
46:45should do, those kinds of things. And
46:47don't create discoverable records that
46:50uh that have any of that kind of
46:51information in them.
46:54So, okay, now here's here's the tricky
46:57part.
46:58Um
46:59you
47:00uh have the uh chat box there
47:03and I am going to
47:06uh
47:07Actually, I want to start new chat.
47:08Let's let's go over to the uh
47:11um just on your screen, you should have
47:14a little hand raised to raise your hand.
47:16Um if I and we will sit here until
47:19somebody does it. So, you might as well
47:21just push that button. So, Joe and Bill
47:24have an ongoing personality conflict
47:26finally leading to a shouting match in
47:28the office that almost came to blows.
47:32Joe called Bill a rude name and stormed
47:35off. The team is divided on who is at
47:37fault. Another employee, Kevin, comes to
47:40the manager and asks what's going to
47:42happen to Joe because Kevin feels unsafe
47:45continuing to work with him. And if I'm
47:47the manager, I will say, my first
47:49instinct when I hear unsafe is, "Oh
47:51gosh, here we go." But,
47:53that's my gut instinct. That doesn't
47:55mean that's what I'm going to do. So,
47:56if what would you do in this situation
47:59if you're the the manager and Kevin
48:02comes to you and says that he he wants
48:04to know what's going to happen because
48:06he feels unsafe continuing to work
48:09with Joe.
48:12Drop me a note in the chat box if that's
48:15the way you want to do it or just raise
48:17your hand and I will
48:19uh
48:20I will unmute you. So, let me find let
48:23me find this here.
48:25How does it How does it
48:27Uh somebody raise their hand. Oh, there
48:29it is. Show me your hand. There it is.
48:32Okay, Barbara. I'm going to allow you to
48:34talk, Barbara. Go.
48:36What would you do, Barbara?
48:38Okay, well, I would first ask the
48:41individual if they have specific
48:43situations that make them feel unsafe
48:46because it's possible there are things
48:47beyond this shouting match that led this
48:50person to feel unsafe. So, figure out
48:54you know, talk to me what's going on,
48:56what's happening.
48:57Let me know.
48:59Right. Good. Yeah, that's a that's a big
49:01one, right? You know, maybe there's
49:02something else there than just what he
49:05saw.
49:06Uh Sherry, what do you say What would
49:08What else would you say?
49:12You might need to unmute.
49:22Sherry, you raised your hand, but I'm
49:23not hearing you. So,
49:25Does anyone else have a hand up?
49:28I'll keep watching for it.
49:30Uh oh, there you go, Sherry.
49:33Well, you're not muted, Sherry, but I
49:35can't hear you.
49:36W. C. Fields said never work with
49:38children or pets, and I think it's
49:40probably true on in the Zoom world not
49:42to work with lot hot mics, but we
49:45haven't done tech runs with every single
49:46person.
49:47Okay. Well,
49:49Sherry, if you get your audio to come
49:51back on, just jump in, but I think uh
49:54Barbara was right that the issue first
49:57is let's dig deeper into this joy. What
49:58does he feel uncomfortable about? Why
50:00does he feel unsafe?
50:01And, you know,
50:03maybe maybe Kevin starts sharing, "Well,
50:06I just don't like conflict and and, you
50:09know, that was really inappropriate."
50:11And then the manager's job is to, you
50:12know, the manager's instinct is to say,
50:14"Yes, it was inappropriate. You're
50:15right, it was, and I'm sorry you went
50:16through that." Well, you know, let's tap
50:18that back a little bit and just say,
50:20"Okay, so
50:22if you ever have any concerns about, you
50:24know,
50:25your own safety
50:27and, you know, you certainly will
50:28personally ever feel
50:30threatened,
50:31that's not something we we would
50:33tolerate, and I would want you to bring
50:34it to me so we would investigate that.
50:36We'd take it very seriously.
50:38I can't tell you what's going to happen
50:39in this particular case between Joe and
50:41Bill.
50:42You know, HR's investigating it. There's
50:44a process in place, and
50:47they will come to the right decision.
50:48That's, you know, according to company
50:50policy and the law. The best thing you
50:52can do is if you have any concerns or
50:54any there's direct things that you're
50:56that you experience, we need to know
50:58about, then you can bring it forward.
51:00Sherry, did Was that you I heard a
51:02minute ago? Can you hear me? Yay! Thank
51:04Okay. [laughter]
51:07Um I would I would start um an
51:10investigation, but I would first pull in
51:12Joe individually, Bill individually, and
51:15get the facts on
51:18their situation. Right. And then address
51:21Kevin's situation, but I would
51:23ultimately figure out what happened and
51:25see if there was any witnesses, and just
51:27do a full-scale investigation to figure
51:29out
51:29>> Oh, for sure. Oh, yeah. Yeah,
51:31definitely. Yeah.
51:32Uh and and on something at this level,
51:35I'm assuming HR's involved. I'm hoping
51:37HR's involved. Uh Right. Uh and
51:40>> am HR. Yeah, yeah, [laughter] yeah,
51:42exactly. So, and if they went to the
51:44manager, I you know, I think I'd want
51:46the manager to refer the person to HR if
51:48he's got real concerns about his actual
51:50safety and security.
51:51And if he's not comfortable doing it,
51:52that's where I would pick the pick his
51:54brain a little deeper to say what was
51:55really going on in the past to bring us.
51:58Thank you. Thank you, Sherry.
52:00So, let's go let's take it to the next
52:02step.
52:03Joe and Bill were suspended pending
52:05investigation.
52:07>> [sighs]
52:07>> And oops, went backwards. Joe and Bill
52:10were
52:11were suspended pending investigation.
52:13Their manager, wanting to maintain
52:15maintain transparency, held a team
52:17meeting via Zoom because some team
52:20members were remote. He says, "I know
52:22you're aware of the incident between Joe
52:23and Bill. HR is investigating a
52:25complaint, but I'm sure we'll work this
52:27out. They are both valued employees.
52:30We'll know more soon."
52:32So, what do y'all think?
52:34Somebody raise your hand and tell me
52:36what
52:37you would do in that situation.
52:43Anybody got anything there?
52:49I saw I saw I saw one. There we go.
52:51Devon, tell tell me what you got.
52:56You might need to unmute.
52:57Arthur, can you hear me?
52:58>> There you go. Yes.
53:00Um you know, I I I don't think I would
53:02call a team meeting.
53:04Um I I I don't think I would bring
53:05people in on Zoom
53:07um
53:08to address and let them know exactly
53:10what was going on.
53:12Uh
53:12I I may
53:14bring those that were uh specifically in
53:18um the the scenario or or
53:20the the vicinity, let them know that,
53:22you know, we do know that we have been
53:24made aware. Um we're looking into it,
53:26and if they should have any concerns, if
53:28they should like to discuss it, if it
53:30made them feel certain way, uh human
53:32resources door is always open. As you
53:34know, many people said before, we take
53:36these things very seriously, and go from
53:38there. But I I I don't know bringing it
53:40to the entire organization let them know
53:42that this happened and
53:44where we're going with this like this.
53:46Especially
53:48Zoom, right? I mean, Zoom is
53:51we've seen so many instances where
53:52people had said things on Zoom and it
53:55ended up all over the internet. Uh you
53:58even if the recording button is not
53:59pushed on Zoom
54:01there's a thousand ways to record that
54:03stuff and it gets recorded all the time.
54:05And so and that's now we've got discover
54:07something that's discoverable. And
54:11and so that's that's
54:13that's a thing. Let's jump over to
54:15Silvia. Silvia, what have you got? What
54:17do you what do you think?
54:19You might need to unmute.
54:25You just went to mute then unmute me,
54:27Silvia. Now you're muted again.
54:34Well,
54:35so yeah, I think you know, part of the
54:36other issue is on this one is
54:40uh
54:40you know, besides just doing it as a
54:41Zoom meeting
54:43uh
54:44I think a different emotional
54:45intelligence response to the whole
54:47situation would have would have been
54:50better. I think the manager probably the
54:52instinct was right, right? I mean, I I
54:55want I want my team to feel safe. I want
54:57them to know that there's a process in
54:58place.
54:59Uh
55:00but uh
55:02I think the the idea that let's just do
55:04it straight with
55:06the people who are involved rather than
55:07dragging the whole team into it uh cuz
55:10now we are just firing up um
55:14a bunch of conversation
55:16um and
55:17uh
55:18we're fueling some
55:20gossip because what's going to happen is
55:21people who weren't aware of the
55:22situation are going to start instant
55:24messaging the other people who you know,
55:26the remote people aren't aren't going to
55:27see you know, what's going on and
55:29they're going to start uh messaging back
55:31and forth to try to figure out what the
55:32heck's going on. What are we talking
55:33about?
55:34And uh
55:36Silvia, I think you're unmuted now.
55:38Yes, can you hear me?
55:40Hi Mike. Thank you for your podcast and
55:42doing this webinar.
55:44Um, I think
55:45with this situation, I think it's always
55:47best practice for HR, we haven't already
55:49mentioned, is when you have human
55:52behavior like this with Joe and Bill and
55:55we have an organization, to mitigate
55:57gossip is for HR to
56:00um, talk to the manager right away and
56:02saying, "Hey, in order to maintain
56:04transparency, don't hold meetings with
56:07your team um,
56:09to talk about maintaining transparency
56:12cuz there might be things that, um,
56:15you haven't been coached to say or, um,
56:17just
56:18being to be a
56:20a valuable player of the team and you
56:22you want to stay in good graces with
56:25your your team members, make sure you
56:27loop HR into this meeting as a
56:29third-party witness. So, you are not
56:31saying, um, inappropriate things that
56:33put the organization at risk. So, I
56:35think at best practice, when you have a
56:37situation like this, always loop the
56:39manager in first and saying, "Hey,
56:41pending this investigation,
56:44let's let's talk about a pathway to talk
56:47talk to your team members, um, while we
56:50conclude this investigation." So, best
56:53practice, talk to the manager first,
56:55too. Mhm. Yeah, for sure and I think
56:57that's, uh,
56:59that's the
57:02you know,
57:03helping HR's role there. I always say
57:06HR's job is, uh, to be the risk advisor,
57:09but it's, you know, the risk managers
57:11are those front-line supervisors all the
57:13way to the executive people.
57:15Um, and, you know, so let me help you
57:17put a script together before we get on,
57:19you know, before you jump on this call,
57:21if we actually have to have have a
57:22conversation with even with just the
57:24small group, let me help you script the
57:26conversation. Here's what what come up.
57:29Here's how we we respond to that and and
57:31go through those kind of conversations.
57:33Let's go to the next scenario.
57:35One of your employees shares some
57:36salacious details she heard about
57:38another employees sexual harassment
57:40complaint against another manager.
57:43Neither Neither of them work in your
57:44department. We're running up on time
57:45here, so I think this one's probably
57:47already obvious. This is a definitely a
57:49redirect reassuring redirect. Well, you
57:52know,
57:54that's interesting, I guess, but here's
57:56the you know, that's not how we would if
57:59if this is involving somebody in my
58:00team, I wouldn't want other people
58:01talking about this out of school and you
58:05know, the company's values all you know,
58:07include respecting one another.
58:09And so, you know, generally I'm you
58:13know, I don't I don't think it's
58:14something we should just be talking
58:15about, but you seem to have some
58:16details. If you've got firsthand
58:18knowledge of something that's that's
58:20really relevant, I think you should go
58:23take that to HR.
58:24And send them to HR. I mean, as the as
58:27the person's direct supervisor, I don't
58:29need you know, I don't want to get my
58:30hands done Why do I need to know this? I
58:32don't need to know it, but you should go
58:33tell the tell HR this or maybe
58:36if I'm not sure that they're going to do
58:37it,
58:38uh okay, hey, you know what? Let me just
58:40stop you right there.
58:42It sounds like you you know something
58:43that may be relevant. Let me walk you
58:46down to HR right now.
58:47And then they will really backpedal if
58:49they don't want to do that cuz they know
58:50they're just you know, adding gas to the
58:52fire.
58:53Uh but
58:55you know, that way
58:57you're setting the example that hey, we
58:59got a a way that we handle these things
59:02and we're not going to uh
59:05um you know, we're not going to just
59:08use it for cannon fodder here. What
59:11we're going to do is
59:13you know, if you've got real information
59:14that you're sharing with me, then let's
59:15go let's go share it with HR. We're not
59:18going to ignore it cuz there's legal
59:19risk there, too.
59:22And an employee notices Oh, I love this
59:24one. An An notices that a co-worker,
59:26John, has been absent for a week and
59:28asks manager, "Is John okay?"
59:32The manager replies, "He's been really
59:34struggling with anxiety lately. HR
59:36approved leave for him to get help, so
59:38hopefully he'll be back soon."
59:40Again, probably pretty obvious.
59:42Uh maybe the co-worker is truly
59:44concerned about John, or maybe she's
59:47just nosy, or maybe she's mad that she's
59:50picking up all John's slack. We don't
59:51know.
59:53But,
59:54none of those give us
59:56the manager any reason to share that
59:59John's got anxiety, that he's on leave
1:00:02to get help for that. And so, his his
1:00:04response should have been,
1:00:07um
1:00:08yeah, um
1:00:10uh I appreciate your concern. And
1:00:13uh
1:00:14you you know, John will be back uh very
1:00:17soon. I appreciate your help in keeping
1:00:19the organization and getting keeping the
1:00:20team moving forward in the meantime. If
1:00:23there's anything I can do to help you in
1:00:24that front, let me know.
1:00:26Just leave it there. And uh cuz people,
1:00:29you know,
1:00:30sometimes they're well-intentioned,
1:00:32sometimes they're just being nosy.
1:00:34Then so, John eventually returns to work
1:00:36with an ADA reasonable accommodation
1:00:37allowing him to work a modified
1:00:39schedule.
1:00:40Okay, so he's got an ADA accommodation,
1:00:43good. Nancy asks for similar schedule
1:00:45modification to help with child care.
1:00:48Without further explanation, the manager
1:00:50said it wasn't possible. Now, Nancy is
1:00:53complaining about favoritism.
1:00:56So, Nancy's got an issue,
1:00:59and
1:01:00uh and she you know, she sees John's got
1:01:02a modified schedule, she doesn't know
1:01:04why.
1:01:05And the manager, wisely this time,
1:01:07didn't say anything about John's uh
1:01:09anxiety because HR slapped him last time
1:01:12he did, so he learned that lesson. But
1:01:15now, he's just saying,
1:01:17uh it's not possible.
1:01:18And
1:01:20uh and so, Nancy's complaining. So,
1:01:23you know, the manager might have better
1:01:24responded to Nancy by saying, "Hey, you
1:01:26know, we have policies that that we
1:01:29abide by that determine all kinds of
1:01:31things about the terms and conditions of
1:01:33people's work. Uh,
1:01:35John's schedule isn't isn't in line with
1:01:38that. Um, and
1:01:42your request to modify your schedule, as
1:01:45we discussed when you requested it, was
1:01:46declined because of this. You know,
1:01:48whatever the reasons were. Maybe it's
1:01:50company policy, maybe it's, you know,
1:01:51whatever the reasons are. What Why did
1:01:53we make that decision?
1:01:55And And now Nancy's, you know, she's
1:01:58upset complaining about favoritism. And
1:02:01as HR, what do we If she comes to HR and
1:02:03says there's favoritism, we're basically
1:02:05going to have to say the same thing,
1:02:06right? We have policies in place and
1:02:09we're not going to mention the ADA or
1:02:11any of those issues. What we're going to
1:02:12say is we have policies in place that
1:02:14determine what people's work schedules
1:02:15are. Um, and yeah, I understand you've
1:02:19got that concern. We weren't able to
1:02:20accommodate it, but the, you know, but
1:02:24uh, you know, John's schedule is John's
1:02:26schedule. If you're having a hard time
1:02:27getting the work done or there's
1:02:29concerns
1:02:30uh, around workload, things like that,
1:02:32please let us know.
1:02:34Um, and of course, you know,
1:02:35every time I do this presentation live,
1:02:37somebody says, "Well, they should
1:02:38probably try to find a way to find, you
1:02:40know, accommodate Nancy, too." Ideally,
1:02:42yes, but there's some jobs where you
1:02:44just can't do that. And um,
1:02:47and certainly
1:02:49uh,
1:02:50John's ADA uh, accommodation is going to
1:02:54set precedent uh, over uh,
1:02:57an accommodation of convenience for for
1:03:00Nancy.
1:03:02Okay, and that's what we've got today.
1:03:04Thank you all for sticking out till the
1:03:06end. We went a few minutes over as ever.
1:03:08Uh, my 30-minute podcast is always 45.
1:03:11Uh,
1:03:12if you're watching this live as those of
1:03:14you who hear me say this right now are
1:03:17uh
1:03:18you will get an email this evening
1:03:20uh or tomorrow morning with uh a link to
1:03:23a quick survey to tell me uh what you
1:03:25liked, what you didn't like about the
1:03:27process, and then get the HRCI and SHRM
1:03:30recert credit. If you are watching the
1:03:33recording, then
1:03:36uh what you'll do is after you've
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1:03:39imperativeinfo.com/webinars
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1:03:44g o s s i p, to obtain the credit uh
1:03:48recert credit information. So, it's all
1:03:50there for you on the website.
1:03:52Also, we will uh you can get all of the
1:03:55the notes, my slides are mostly
1:03:57pictures, as you noticed, and all the
1:03:59notes uh it's a little book, basically,
1:04:01now uh are are are going to be available
1:04:04to download, as well, on the website.
1:04:07And don't forget the podcast. Every
1:04:08Thursday we drop an episode. We're in
1:04:10the 250s range now.
1:04:12Uh Good Morning HR, and every episode is
1:04:15pre-approved for HRCI and SHRM credit.
1:04:18So, until I see y'all next, thank you
1:04:21for joining me, and be well,
1:04:24do good,
1:04:25keep your chin up.