Rick Rubin: Your Whole Personality Is NOT True

0:00What in your opinion has made us so

0:02addicted to wanting

0:05to become someone that people like and

0:08often go against who we truly are. You

0:11just said you you like to sense that

0:13authenticity and feel how you feel.

0:16A lot of people are scared of that. A

0:17lot of people would rather mold and

0:20become malleable and evolve and become

0:21who people want them to be. What Why are

0:24we Why do you think that is?

0:25>> People like to be accepted. People want

0:27to be accepted. And I'm suggesting in

0:30the book that the the best way to be

0:32accepted is to be yourself. It's not

0:34It's not to change yourself to what

0:36someone else thinks. First of all, you

0:38don't really know what someone else

0:40thinks.

0:42And if you're not genuine to yourself,

0:44there's there's like nothing nothing is

0:46there.

0:48It's just a projection or a mask. It's

0:50not true.

0:51>> Mhm.

0:52>> And there's something about

0:53authenticity. Like I get to work with

0:55artists,

0:57some of whom have very different ways of

0:59seeing the world than me.

1:01And I support their vision a million

1:03percent. Even though whatever they're

1:05talking about maybe I maybe

1:07diametrically opposed to what they're

1:08talking about. But I support them a

1:10million percent. And anything I can do

1:12to support them getting their message

1:15across the clearest they can, I support

1:17that.

1:18The only way we can um learn anything is

1:23through the reality of seeing what's

1:25around us and learning there are these

1:29different points of view around us. If

1:31we're all thinking the same thing, it's

1:34boring. Why would we make anything if

1:36everyone thinks the same thing? What

1:37makes us interesting are the

1:39differences.

1:40>> Mhm.

1:40>> And even even the imperfections

1:44the imperfections are what makes us

1:45humans, what makes us what we are. It's

1:48like um there's so much talk today about

1:50chat GPT and AI. It's like it's a

1:53different thing

1:54than a human sharing their own

1:58experience

1:59>> Mhm.

2:00warts and all.

2:02That's what we love. We love you know,

2:04you you may hear a song about um

2:07someone who says terrible heartbreak and

2:09you may not be experiencing terrible

2:10heartbreak but hearing them

2:14honestly talk about a human experience

2:17even one that we're not having can make

2:20us cry, can make us resonate with them,

2:23can give us a better understanding of

2:24the world.

2:25Absolutely. And we're not all

2:27everything, you know, we're all only us.

2:30Each of us is ourselves.

2:32>> Yeah, one thing when I was reading your

2:33book it reminded me of

2:36something else I read a while ago and

2:38what I read said that the Japanese say

2:40we have three faces.

2:42One face that we show the entire world.

2:46The second face is the face that we only

2:49show our family and friends.

2:51And the third face they say we show no

2:53one at all. Maybe not even ourselves

2:55sometime. We don't even But what you're

2:57saying is almost like when we tap into

2:58that essence and become that self,

3:02that's where all this beauty and

3:04imagination and creativity stems from.

3:06>> Yeah, it's the most it seems to be the

3:08most interesting and the most

3:10particular, you know,

3:12in a sea of information the more yours

3:16is personal

3:18the more it's not like

3:20hers or his or theirs.

3:24It's it's yours.

3:25>> Yeah.

3:25>> And

3:27for all of us we get more of a a sense

3:30of reality

3:32even if our views are different than

3:34everyone else's it's still

3:36helps us understand this is this place

3:39that we're in where there are these

3:40there are these different views.

3:42Interesting. When when I speak to

3:43someone who has a different view on

3:45anything I always want to learn more.

3:47How did you get there? What can I learn

3:49from you?

3:50You know, I never assume that I know

3:52anything.

3:53>> When we're talking about creativity, you

3:55address this fear head-on in the

3:57beginning because it is a fear.

4:00Everyone has somewhat of a fear. Just as

4:02we say things like, "Oh, I can't sing."

4:04We say things like, "Oh, well, I'm not

4:05creative or I'm not artistic." Or

4:08I'm I've never really been a creative.

4:10I'm more academic or whatever it may be.

4:12We have these again constructs, right

4:14and wrong, academic, creative. Mostly

4:16polar opposites.

4:18And

4:20you're actually saying, "No, no, no.

4:21This is something everyone can access

4:23and has access to."

4:24>> And do And do access.

4:26>> do access.

4:26>> Yeah, we we just don't all all

4:29acknowledge it.

4:30>> Mhm.

4:30>> But deciding to take a different route

4:32home because there's a traffic jam in

4:34front of you and figuring out the way to

4:35go, that's a creative decision. Cooking

4:38food and it tasting a certain way and

4:40you think, "Oh, maybe it'll taste better

4:41if I add this to it." That's a creative

4:43decision.

4:44>> Mhm.

4:45>> We all do them

4:46everyday we make creative choices.

4:49Anytime we do something that's not

4:51exactly the same as the way we did it

4:54yesterday, the reason it's different is

4:56because we made a creative choice.

4:58[laughter]

4:58>> Yeah, absolutely. As simple as that.

5:01>> as that.

5:02>> Just just a detour in a car.

5:03>> Anything.

5:04>> of this or that. Yeah. What have been

5:07the biggest blocks

5:09to creativity or to accessing that? What

5:12are the biggest blocks? Is it I know and

5:14and I'll touch on a few that I'm

5:15intrigued by and curious about. But what

5:17would you say are the biggest blocks

5:19that people have to being truly creative

5:21and imaginative?

5:22>> One big block is concerns about what

5:25other people think.

5:26>> Mhm.

5:26>> That's a big one.

5:27>> Mhm.

5:28>> I I made this thing that I love, but I

5:31think other people would like it more if

5:33I made it different for them.

5:37We don't know what they would like. It's

5:38a It's a really It's all in our head. It

5:42comes back to this thing of what I think

5:44isn't good enough.

5:45>> Mhm.

5:46>> You know, if I like it, that doesn't

5:47mean anything.

5:49That's what people think. It's like,

5:51just because I like it, that doesn't

5:52give it any value. It's like, as an

5:54artist, if you like it, that's all of

5:56the value. That's the success comes when

5:59you say, "I like this enough for other

6:01people to see it."

6:03Not other people like it, so it's

6:05successful. That doesn't mean anything

6:07because that's other people liking it is

6:09out of your control.

6:10All that's in your control is making the

6:13thing to the best of your ability. I

6:15talk about it usually the way I talk

6:16about it is greatness. And that's the

6:18way I thought of it my whole life was

6:20my interest is in making something

6:22great. Greatness, lasting greatness,

6:24timeless. And I came to realize

6:26recently, it's all an offering to God.

6:30And if you're making an offering to God,

6:32you're not thinking about, "Oh, what's

6:33the budget?" Or

6:35I hope I hope these this segment of the

6:38audience is going to like it. We don't

6:40We don't think like that. It's a higher

6:42vibration.

6:44We're making the best we can make to the

6:46best of our ability

6:49out of love and devotion.

6:51That's what it is.

6:52And there is no

6:55I'm changing it for someone else because

6:57it can't be better than this devotional

7:00act that we're doing.

7:02There is no higher No higher form.

7:05>> Yeah, and that's what you see so much in

7:06in nature around us. I've always found

7:08like the sun is just selflessly serving

7:12and giving. And you see a

7:14bush of flowers or you see a tree that's

7:16growing fruits. And again, it's

7:17providing shade and fruit. And it's just

7:19serving.

7:20And it's interesting how when you call

7:22it a devotional act, the idea that it's

7:25it's a service. It's an offering, as you

7:27said, in

7:28>> Absolutely.

7:29And even an offensive song

7:32is that to someone to someone. It's

7:35like, um I worked with band Slayer.

7:38And Slayer were a very controversial,

7:41aggressive band. And the people who came

7:43to see them didn't come to see them in

7:46filled with hate. They came to They came

7:48to see them filled with love. And for

7:50many of the people in the audience,

7:52maybe the only experience of love they

7:54had was connecting over Slayer. You

7:57know, there were there were people in

7:58the audience who seemed like

8:01other than this thing to devote

8:03themselves passionately to,

8:06seemed like

8:08often hopeless people.

8:11And for them to have something that they

8:12loved

8:13was

8:14beautiful to witness.

8:16>> And that that sounds like one I think

8:18you're spot on that that fear of what

8:21will people think, what will people say,

8:23art versus audience almost. And I feel

8:26that that has become such a big

8:29challenge in today's world because

8:31there's so much data available, social

8:33media available, and you get instant

8:35feedback, right? So, I think in the past

8:38a band would lock themselves in a shed

8:41or whatever it may be and then work on

8:43stuff and maybe their friends would

8:45listen or they would listen and but it

8:47would take months before the audience

8:49heard it. Today, you could literally

8:51record something in 3 seconds, put it

8:54up, and get instant feedback. And so,

8:56the feedback loop has got shorter, the

8:59time to create something has got

9:00shorter, it's easier to publish, and

9:03it's easier to get criticism or

9:05feedback. And so, do you say that that's

9:08creativity being stifled and and is

9:10hampering creativity?

9:11>> Absolutely. And the beauty of it is

9:14because so much of what's being made is

9:16being made that way,

9:18that if

9:19we choose to make something not like

9:21that, it really stands out.

9:23>> Mhm.

9:23>> This book, for example, it goes against

9:26all of the rules of publishing.

9:28From the beginning, I I started the book

9:308 years ago and I met with publishers 8

9:32years ago, told them

9:34this is my vision for this book.

9:36And all of them said, "That's not the

9:38book anybody wants from you. That's not

9:40the book." And I said, "Well, it's

9:42That's the book I want to write."

9:44>> Yeah.

9:44>> And like, "Well, but surely you'll tell

9:46personal stories and you'll talk about

9:47Johnny Cash and you'll talk about" It's

9:49like, "No, that's not what this is.

9:51>> Yeah.

9:51>> It's a different book.

9:52>> Yeah.

9:53>> And then I decided not to make a

9:55publishing deal then because even the

9:56ones who said they would go along with

9:58what my vision was, I could see that

10:01they really were fantasizing a different

10:03book than this book.

10:04>> Yeah.

10:05>> I waited till the book was written and

10:07then said, "Do you want to publish this

10:09book? Not the book you

10:12think is the book that you want me to

10:14write, but this is the book that I that

10:16I wrote, that I wanted to write and

10:18wrote.

10:19Do you want to publish this book?" And

10:21then when they read it, they're like,

10:22"Oh, yes.

10:22>> [laughter]

10:23>> We'll publish this."

10:23>> But you're right, you can't control what

10:25the audience wants, even if you played

10:27every perfect metric in game.

10:30>> No.

10:31>> But we think we can. We We think there's

10:33a part of us and that's what I was going

10:34to ask you, that almost one end is

10:35saying,

10:36"I am too worried about what people

10:38think." But the opposite almost is the

10:40ego of, "I can either control everything

10:44perfectly so that this becomes the

10:46number one chart-topping song or I'm

10:49right and I know everything."

10:52Is that Do you see that as a block to

10:53creativity and how and And how do you

10:55purify that?

10:56>> I think the the goal is to get to this,

10:59this is how I see it. I don't know what

11:02other people are going to think. I can't

11:04know what other people are going to

11:05think.

11:07But this is how I see it.

11:08And I want to show you how I see it.

11:11That's my purpose here on the planet is

11:13to show you how I see it.

11:15And then I want to see how you see it

11:17and where do they line up and where they

11:19different? And that's how we make sense

11:22of the world. It's not one story.

11:24>> Yeah.

11:25>> We all have a story. We all have

11:27something to say and we can all learn

11:29from each other and it's it's

11:30fascinating.

11:31It's like there's

11:33They're the same set of chords used in

11:36all the songs, yet new songs keep

11:38coming. You know, there's someone who

11:40say all the songs have been written.

11:41They're They've It keeps happening.

11:45It How do you How do new jokes come up?

11:47They're all It's like they're all the

11:49same, but then they're all different.

11:51And how how we interpret it and our each

11:55and it comes from each of our life

11:56experiences, which are different. We We

11:59each have our own family origin story.

12:02We each have our own the places that we

12:03grew up, the things that we saw. We

12:06could go and do the same thing together

12:09and then get back and discuss what we

12:10saw and see two completely different

12:12things. And it's not like one of us is

12:14right and one of us is wrong. We're just

12:16noticing different things. There's so

12:18many data points to take in and we each

12:21take in the ones that

12:23speak to us.

12:24>> So true. Yeah, you you remind me of the

12:27famous words of Mark Twain of history

12:29never repeats itself, but it always

12:30rhymes.

12:31And that right there the idea of like

12:34Yeah, like the same song doesn't come

12:36back, but there's a rhyme, there's a

12:37there's the chord, there's the but but

12:39it's still different. And And there's

12:41some beautiful I want to point out to

12:42everyone because one thing I really aim

12:44to do here on on the podcast, but also

12:46in life is to try and give people really

12:48practical tiny steps that they could

12:51take. And you you do that artfully in

12:52this book. And there was this section

12:54here which identifies why I brought it

12:57up now cuz exactly what you said,

12:58breaking the sameness. Right? And And we

13:00think there's

13:02the sameness or completeness. And you

13:03give these beautiful examples of things

13:06people can do in order to do that. And I

13:08just want to touch on a couple of them.

13:10And would love to hear some examples

13:12from you that where it worked. So, I

13:15really like this one, change the

13:17context. So, you say there are times

13:19when a singer doesn't connect with a

13:21song like an actor whose line reading

13:24falls flat. It can be helpful to create

13:26a new meaning or an additional backstory

13:29to a song's lyrics. A love song might

13:32sound different if sung to a long-lost

13:34soulmate, a partner of 30 years that you

13:36don't get along with, a person you saw

13:38on the street but never spoke to, or

13:39your mother. Have you I was intrigued,

13:41have you ever asked an artist to

13:44sing to someone real in their life

13:47potentially to get an emotion out?

13:50>> Yes, there's uh the first example that

13:52comes to mind is we were doing a cover

13:55of the song The First Time Ever I Saw

13:58Your Face with Johnny Cash, and he read

14:02the lyrics and he said, "I don't know if

14:04I could sing this song. I don't really

14:06feel these words."

14:08And I said, "Well, how about if it's a

14:10devotional song to God?"

14:12He's like,

14:13"I could sing that song."

14:15And when he changed it to being

14:18not singing it to a woman, but singing

14:21it to God,

14:23he was able to tap into the energy of

14:25the song, and

14:26he felt the vibration. He felt he he

14:28felt the trueness to him in singing it.

14:32>> Wow, yeah. And so he

14:35But everyone still thought the song was

14:36about a woman.

14:38>> It is. The song is about a woman.

14:40>> Right, right, right, right, right.

14:41>> Yeah, but there's there's a long history

14:42of songs that are

14:44love songs that could be to a woman or

14:47could be devotional.

14:48>> Yeah.

14:49>> It's interesting when songs walk this

14:51line, or when we think we know what a

14:53song is about.

14:54>> Yeah.

14:55>> And we think it's about a romantic

14:58relationship when it's really about

14:59their child. You know, the these

15:01devotional songs.

15:02>> So, and I'm sharing this with all of you

15:04who are listening and watching because I

15:05know you I know where you're sitting

15:06there thinking, "Jay, I procrastinate, I

15:08overthink, I don't know how to focus."

15:09Which we'll get into all of that. But I

15:11want to share these with you because I

15:12want you to try them out in your own

15:14area in the world the work you do. So,

15:17change the environment. If we're looking

15:19for a performance of a different nature,

15:21it can help to change an element of the

15:23environment. Turning off the lights and

15:25playing in the dark can create a shift

15:27in consciousness and break the chain of

15:30sameness from performance to

15:32performance. Other shifts we've

15:34experimented with include having a

15:36singer hold the microphone instead of

15:38standing in front of it, and recording

15:40early in the morning instead of at night

15:42to access a greater degree of variation.

15:45One vocalist chose to hang upside down

15:47while singing. Could you tell us some

15:49examples of those because I find that

15:51again, these are just they're so simple,

15:54but we don't do it. We will sit at the

15:56same desk every day banging our head

15:59against the wall with the same tabs open

16:01on Google going, "Why can't I be

16:03creative?" And it's often these

16:06physical, tangible changes around us.

16:08>> Yeah. And so it happened in the studio.

16:10It's not uncommon if we've played a song

16:12three or four or five or six times, and

16:14it just feels like it's not getting

16:16better, or we've reached a certain peak,

16:20and it's really not all it could be, but

16:22then it starts not being as good.

16:25Usually when that happens, as soon as

16:26you reach whatever peak you're at and it

16:28starts coming down, we usually stop

16:30playing the song.

16:32But one thing we've done in the past

16:34also would be again changing the

16:36context, turning the lights off in the

16:38studio.

16:39It changes everything. It's not take

16:42seven, it's the first take in the dark.

16:45And it changes it changes. The first

16:48album I recorded with the Red Hot Chili

16:50Peppers was their I think it was their

16:52fifth album.

16:54And the albums that they had done

16:55before, they had all done in traditional

16:57recording studios, and them they told me

17:01that none of those were good

17:01experiences.

17:03So we thought about what could we do for

17:05this experience to make it the first

17:08different one instead of the fifth if

17:11the first four were bad. Could have been

17:13the first good one in in the same

17:16environment, or we could change the

17:18environment and it would be the first of

17:20any kind. So, we chose to rent this big

17:23house not far from here and record in

17:25this mansion. And that was very

17:28different than showing up to a recording

17:29studio with people working in an office

17:32and other musicians in other other

17:33places. We had our whole own world that

17:37we created in and some of the members of

17:39the band didn't leave during the entire,

17:41I don't know, 6 weeks or 2 months. They

17:44never left the premises. They just

17:46stayed there, slept there,

17:49ate there, worked there, and um never

17:52left until it was done.

17:53>> Well, yeah, I love that one. Uh invite

17:57an audience. This one makes sense, but

17:59but I think people need to do more. When

18:01an artist thrives on being in front of a

18:02crowd, we may bring in several people to

18:05watch a session. Being observed changes

18:07how an artist acts. Even if the audience

18:09consists only of on one person who isn't

18:12part of the project, that can be enough.

18:15While some artists may overdo a

18:16performance for an audience and others

18:18may hold back, most tend to be more

18:20focused with someone else present. Even

18:23if your art is non-performative, such as

18:25writing or cooking, it will still likely

18:28change with an observer present. The

18:30goal is to find the specific parameters

18:33in each case that bring out your best. I

18:35I love the idea. I had a few friends a

18:37few years ago. One of their buddies

18:40wanted to become a stand-up comic, but

18:42he had no experience in stand-up comedy.

18:45So, they threw him a stand-up show in

18:48their backyard and there were like 15 of

18:50us present in the audience. He got

18:52announced onto stage in front of an

18:54audience that wasn't going to heckle or

18:56be the meanest to him, and he got to

18:58practice. And it was it was just such a

19:00beautiful way, A, to do that for your

19:02friends, but to experience that. And I'm

19:05I'm on tour at the moment and this is my

19:06break period, but

19:08for my test, we were

19:11practicing, rehearsing in a small

19:13theater in Thousand Oaks. And so, what

19:15does the theater said to us is they

19:17could throw it out to their local

19:20audience members who would have no clue

19:21who I was or what I was doing, and

19:23they'd come along. Little did I know

19:25that we'd have like 50 to 100 people

19:27that weekend watching the show just as a

19:29rehearsal. And it was so useful to me

19:32before I went out, and it was huge, like

19:35huge. So, I love that one.

19:36>> was listening to a story on the way

19:38here. I was listening to a podcast in

19:39the car and it told a story about the

19:40Beatles

19:42um

19:42that when the Beatles were interviewed

19:45individually,

19:47they were all these thoughtful,

19:49interesting, soulful people. But when

19:52they were interviewed, even two

19:54together,

19:56they became sarcastic

19:58and never said much about about anything

20:03real,

20:04and was much more of a performative,

20:07cool, like to look cool in front of the

20:09other one.

20:10>> Wow.

20:11>> That just being being with each other

20:13changed the way that they appeared in

20:16the world.

20:17>> Mhm. Wow, yeah, that that group aspect

20:21is so interesting. You You've just

20:22sparked another thought for me that I I

20:25think it'll be really interesting to for

20:26people to hear. You going back to this,

20:28it's interesting again them being on

20:30their own

20:32allowed them to be more of their

20:34authentic, deeper self to some degree, I

20:37guess.

20:38>> I think it was in Bob Iger's book where

20:40he talked about how he was saying that

20:43George Lucas, Spielberg,

20:47Tarantino, and and a bunch of others

20:49used to almost have a movie mastermind

20:51where they'd play their movies to each

20:53other before they went out.

20:56And he was saying that that's how

20:58confident they felt about their own work

21:02because they were showing their

21:03competitors

21:04their movies, but they weren't scared of

21:07anyone stealing an idea or taking a

21:09concept because they were so confident

21:11in who they were and all their friends

21:12were so confident in their styles. And

21:14we know that a Tarantino movie versus a

21:16Spielberg movie has no similarities.

21:19>> Yes. And in some ways that community, we

21:22talk about that in the book, too. Having

21:23a community of It doesn't have to be

21:26people who do the same kind of artist as

21:28you.

21:29But people who just taste you you

21:32respect. You like what they do, they

21:34like what you do, and being able to

21:37share your work back and forth is a

21:38really great feeling.

21:40>> Yeah. How have you That's That's a

21:41really nice segue. How has that How has

21:44that affected how you've learned to

21:45filter criticism and feedback? Because

21:48again, going back to the world we live

21:49in today, because of that instant

21:52feedback loop, you can have a hundred

21:54comments that are negative on social

21:56media. Your song didn't make it. It's

21:59not as big as the next album. You have

22:01the top 10 chart, you didn't make it. I

22:03think the way everything's measured and

22:06broadcasted now can make criticism and

22:09feedback in one sense seem louder.

22:11Before you went into a room and someone

22:13told you you weren't getting a new deal,

22:16and no one knew. Today, you didn't get a

22:18new deal and the whole world knows and

22:20your fans know and the opposing fans

22:23know. It's messy. It's like How have you

22:26worked on that for yourself in the work

22:28you've done and even the artists that

22:29you work with who I'm guessing may be

22:31more sensitive to it, may not have that

22:33natural confidence or groundedness in

22:37what it is.

22:38How do you How And even people who are

22:40listening today, how do we think about

22:42feedback and criticism?

22:43>> Most of the artists I work with don't

22:45read any

22:47any criticism or reviews of their work,

22:48good or bad. Most. Some Some do.

22:53And

22:54I would say the ones who are the

22:56strongest in who they are can even read

23:00a terrible review and laugh at it. And

23:03that makes sense because when someone

23:05gives you criticism, it's telling you as

23:06much about who they are as what you've

23:08made.

23:10It's like we make things and then we

23:13make it with one

23:15through our filter, our perspective. And

23:18then you receive it through your filter,

23:21with your perspective.

23:23So even if we both like it, we probably

23:25don't like it the same way for the same

23:27reasons. We all have our own

23:28relationship to it. Everyone has their

23:30own relationship to it. So any of these

23:33metrics of which is better, like the

23:36idea of the Oscars or

23:38the Grammys, where we're saying which

23:40which album is better than another, it

23:42doesn't make any sense to me because

23:44it's always apples and oranges. If you

23:46have a Drake and Beyoncé

23:50and you're deciding which album's

23:52better, well, Drake's album is clearly a

23:55better Drake album than Beyoncé's album

23:57is. And Beyoncé's album, I'm sure is a

24:00much better Beyoncé album than Drake's

24:02album is. But the idea that one's better

24:04than the other, it makes no sense. Who

24:07has a better diary entry? It's like it's

24:10it's If we are actually making these

24:13personal things,

24:16you you can't

24:17compare them or

24:20compete in any way with anyone else. The

24:23only people who we can honestly compete

24:25with is ourselves. It's like, is this

24:27the best I can make today? Have I gone

24:29further than I've gone before?

24:31That's all we can do. That's the only

24:33competition that makes sense. Is

24:35continuing to evolve and push ourselves

24:39artistically and not get complacent,

24:41especially in success. It's easy to get

24:43complacent once something works. It's

24:46like, I'll just keep doing more of that.

24:47It ends up maybe one more time you can

24:51get away with it. But once three or

24:54similar, it stops being interesting.

24:56>> Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. And And it

24:58come that comes back to that sameness

25:00point that

25:01we always And And I'm just addressing

25:04things that I know all of you are

25:05thinking and

25:07feeling right now like or I'm assuming

25:09you are. The idea of Oh, Jay, there's

25:12already, you know, when I started making

25:14podcasts, I think there were like

25:15700,000 podcasts in the world. And today

25:17there's like 2 million plus, maybe even

25:20more now. And that's in 3 years it's

25:23tripled since I started 4 years ago it's

25:25tripled. And so when I started

25:26everyone's like, Jay, there's 700

25:28podcasts. You don't need You don't need

25:29another podcast. You don't need another

25:31Exactly, it's too late. Uh and then now

25:34everyone's like, Oh my god, there's 2

25:35million podcasts. Like there's too late.

25:37And we do that. We We start again using

25:39a metric to set And you'll only feel

25:42that way if you're planning to repeat

25:44what's already been done. Uh because if

25:47if you're not planning to repeat it,

25:49then you're one of one. You're not one

25:51of 2 million or one of 700,000. It's one

25:53of one because the you're only bringing

25:56your own essence out, right? Like

25:58>> Yes.

25:58>> just because every other podcast You

26:00could be like, There's so many interview

26:01podcasts. There are so many interview

26:03podcasts. That's true.

26:04>> And they're all different.

26:05>> all different. Exactly. Like, you know,

26:07and we we've got introduced through um

26:10your long-term friend and uh my new

26:12mutual friend Andrew Huberman who's also

26:13been a guest on this podcast. He has a

26:15phenomenal podcast. I love his podcast.

26:17Um but so different to who I am. So

26:19different to what we do. And And And

26:21then there's a million other friends

26:22that we have that have shows. So

26:24the most common thing I hear

26:27when it comes to creativity or it comes

26:29to tapping into your essence is

26:31distraction, overthinking, and

26:33procrastination. Like those words come

26:35up from my community again and again and

26:37again. And that's the kind of community

26:39listening I do like to do where I'm

26:41like, Well, what are people struggling

26:42with? Because we're trying to help. What

26:44are people's challenges? I I have to

26:46know from them what they think it is.

26:48And then I'll also share in in way I do.

26:51Have you or anyone you've ever worked

26:53with ever dealt with

26:54big bouts of procrastination or

26:56overthinking? Yeah, and

26:58and how do you define [clears throat] it

26:59because I almost think that

27:00>> would say there's two

27:01distraction and procrastination are

27:04related and different. Procrastination

27:07is not a good one.

27:09Distraction can be. Distraction can be

27:11helpful. You can use distraction if you

27:14hold a question to be solved

27:18and

27:19don't sit and think and try to solve it,

27:22but go do something else and go, you

27:24know, take a walk or go for a swim.

27:27You'll find that it changes. It changes.

27:29And the distraction of when you go for a

27:31walk and seeing, "Oh, look at that tree

27:33over there. Look at those birds. Oh,

27:34wow, that car came kind of close to me."

27:36All of those things, that that living in

27:39the world,

27:41even though it's not um

27:43challenging in any real way,

27:46it's a distraction that's using some

27:48part of your brain. Some part of your

27:50brain is occupied with, "Do I turn left

27:53or do I turn right?

27:55Oh, look at that thing over there. Oh,

27:57is it going to rain?" These other things

27:59are happening. That's different than

28:00just sitting in a room looking at your

28:01laptop. Just those

28:05outside

28:07cues can give you a way into solve a

28:10problem that you wouldn't solve if you

28:12were sitting and working on it. For

28:14example, if we were now doing this

28:15podcast together on a walk, it would be

28:18a very different podcast than us sitting

28:20here staring into each other's eyes.

28:23And

28:24it's a beautiful idea. I've I've had

28:26There was a period of time where where I

28:28lost a whole bunch of weight.

28:30And one of the things that I did as part

28:32of that was I only did walking meetings.

28:34Before I used to only do lunch meetings.

28:36So, I switched the lunch meetings to

28:37walking meetings.

28:39And I would meet people in Santa Monica

28:41and we would walk. And the meetings were

28:43so much better than the meetings either

28:47in a restaurant or at uh in an office.

28:51Everything shifted. Just because we were

28:53moving, we were doing something, there

28:56were external stimuli, even though the

28:58external stimuli had nothing to do with

29:00what we were doing.

29:01>> Yeah.

29:02>> It It changed It was a change in context

29:05that really did um make the conversation

29:09much more interesting.

29:11And there's also something about when

29:12you're walking, you're not looking at

29:15each other.

29:16So, it's easier to go into your own

29:21thoughts when you're not looking at

29:23someone.

29:23>> Mhm.

29:24>> So, it's very interesting, a great

29:25experiment, lost a lot of weight,

29:27>> [laughter]

29:27>> and and the meetings were the best

29:29they've ever been.

29:30>> Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. There's

29:32a lot of work in couple psychology that

29:34suggests that when couples argue,

29:36they're usually sitting on opposite

29:38sides of a dining table.

29:40And when you're sitting with something

29:41in between you, first of all, I mean,

29:43here we don't have anything, but you

29:44have something in between you, it's

29:45already creating a distance. And now

29:48you're working against each other,

29:50rather than what you're saying is you're

29:51walking with each other,

29:53and you're looking off into the same

29:55direction. So, you're almost creating a

29:57future.

29:59Uh the idea that you're forward your

30:01your future forward, your future facing.

30:03>> It's funny, my my wife and I whenever we

30:04get to a new table and we're sitting to

30:07to eat,

30:09we always say, we look at where the

30:10chairs are and one of us will say,

30:13"Cheek to cheek."

30:14>> [laughter]

30:14>> And we tend to sit next to each other

30:16instead of across from you.

30:17>> There you go.

30:18There you

30:19Yeah, cheek to cheek. I love that. And

30:20and that makes so much sense with

30:22leadership meetings, creative meetings.

30:24And and I I love that I love love love,

30:27and this is why this book is so

30:29beautiful cuz it has so many really

30:31subtle points in the idea of the

30:33difference between distraction and

30:36procrastination.

30:37>> Yes.

30:38>> And how distraction can actually be

30:40healthy. And especially as you said,

30:42when you hold a question or you you hold

30:45an idea and you're just kind of toying

30:47with it, but you might pick up a book,

30:48you might go for a walk, you might

30:50whatever. You can do all these things,

30:52but it's almost like you're using that

30:53time wisely to to come back and

30:56>> Absolutely. Going for a drive is a great

30:58one.

30:58>> Yeah.

30:59>> And just the just paying attention to

31:02not crashing

31:04even though we can drive essentially on

31:06autopilot.

31:07>> Yeah.

31:08>> We're not thinking about driving. What

31:10once we've been driving for a while.

31:11>> Yeah.

31:12>> But just driving ideas come. I know many

31:15musicians, uh singers who will listen to

31:18the instrumental music in a car in the

31:20car and then sing along when they're

31:22driving.

31:23>> Yeah.

31:23>> Because they're more free than when

31:25they're sitting with a recorder.

31:26>> Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That makes

31:28perfect sense. Yeah, no and it's it's so

31:31interesting how we have so many we've

31:32also built up again going back to our

31:34conditioned beliefs.

31:36We've built up a negative relationship

31:38with the word distraction. We've built

31:40up a

31:40negative connotation around if I don't

31:43solve it right now sitting in this one

31:45place, then I'm never going to figure it

31:47out.

31:48>> Yeah.

31:48>> And the idea that actually going on a

31:50walk, picking up something else. That's

31:52that's one of the reasons why I like

31:53having in my office, here in the studio,

31:56back in my home. Everything's quite

31:58minimalist, but I have a lot of like

31:59little artifacts and little things and

32:02because I enjoy the kind of like

32:05stimulation and the creative juices that

32:07start flowing if I get a moment to just

32:09observe.

32:10And then sometimes I just want to

32:11observe nature outside where I can just

32:13sit and bask and almost bathe in nature,

32:17which I find to be so useful because

32:20there was this incredible study from MIT

32:22a few years ago where they tried to look

32:25for who were their most creative

32:27innovative employees inside the organize

32:29inside corporate organizations and MIT

32:31was doing the study.

32:33They found two sets of charts of types

32:35of employees, employee A and employee B.

32:38Employee A knew lots of people that knew

32:41each other

32:42and employee B knew lots of people that

32:45didn't know each other.

32:46And they were looking at which one's

32:48more creative, innovative, and hence

32:50more imaginative inside a company. And

32:52they found it was employee B because

32:54employee A knew people who knew people

32:57who knew them back.

32:58>> Small circle, closed circle.

33:00>> closed circles that created these echo

33:01chambers and you asked the same 10

33:04people for advice and employee B knew

33:07lots of random people who had no

33:10connection to each other and the point

33:11was being made that if your circle and

33:14that I think applies to environment as

33:16much as it applies to people

33:18>> Absolutely.

33:18>> is more random and disconnected, you

33:22have more chance of having a original,

33:25authentic thought, idea, spark as

33:28opposed to you're surrounded by the four

33:30same people and you talk about the same

33:32things.

33:32>> Absolutely.

33:33>> And and that to me is always been how

33:35what what I'm trying to do. It's like I

33:37want to know what the monks think and I

33:39want to know what Silicon Valley thinks

33:40and I want to know what music geniuses

33:42think because that's there's something

33:44there.

33:45>> Absolutely.

33:46>> A word you use in this book that I want

33:47to touch on and that's why this came up

33:49for me was submerge and I loved it when

33:51I saw that word. I was just like

33:53yes, like I love that I I've thought

33:55about that for so long, submerging

33:57yourself.

33:59We've we've lost that ability

34:01to submerge. We don't submerge ourselves

34:03much because we have so much of a

34:05little. How have you

34:07in this hyper-connected world working

34:09with the most connected artists in the

34:10world, have you encouraged

34:13yourself and others to continue to

34:14submerge when everyone's asking us to

34:16swim shallow?

34:17>> I think so many of the great artists do

34:19it naturally. Can't you can't help it.

34:22It's the obsessive nature of being

34:25really into something

34:27that um

34:29once you start down a

34:31a thread you just keep pulling forever.

34:34If you're interested, many of the

34:36artists that that that are great at what

34:37they do are great at what they do for

34:39that very reason. They fall in love with

34:41this thing and then they just want to

34:43know everything they could possibly

34:45learn about it.

34:47Um and there are no distractions. I'm

34:49working on a project now, a documentary

34:51project with comedians and

34:54one of the things that they talk about

34:56is their commitment, like when other

34:58people are doing things on the weekend,

35:00going out with their friends, they're

35:01going to perform every, you know, every

35:05night that they can possibly go out and

35:07perform until they can get good at their

35:09craft. And this could be for a period

35:11of, you know, 10 years of just having

35:14bad performances, you know, having

35:15people not like what you do.

35:17Like banging your head against the wall,

35:20but that obsession with breaking

35:23through. And when I say breaking

35:24through, I don't mean breaking through

35:25to the audience, I mean breaking through

35:28with themselves

35:29to where they get past

35:32all of the uh blocks

35:35and to be free in this moment in a way

35:38where they can

35:40really express their views and be heard

35:44and people can react.

35:46Your purpose in life isn't related to

35:48your job.

35:50Maybe your job is your job and the job

35:53is the thing that supports you.

35:56And then the rest of your waking hours

35:58are devoted to your purpose, whatever

36:00that is.

36:01>> Yeah, and a lot of us are trying to make

36:02it the same thing.

36:03>> Yeah, and and it's beautiful when it

36:05happens, but it doesn't always happen

36:07and it's out of our control, also. We

36:09can decide

36:11I would say

36:13if you need to have a job to support

36:15yourself, that's great. That's a noble

36:17thing to do.

36:20And follow your dreams.

36:22>> [laughter]

36:22>> But I'm I'm not saying they're one

36:24thing. They don't have to be one thing.

36:26And don't let following your dreams

36:28undermine your ability

36:31Mhm.

36:47Mhm.

37:03>> Yeah, and and that's so true that I

37:04think the scarcity ruins the art, right?

37:09It's the abundance of I did my day job,

37:11I'm now safe and secure, I can be

37:14artistic.

37:15>> Yes.

37:15>> As opposed to sometimes

37:17I actually I'm going to debate my own

37:18statement there cuz sometimes it also

37:19feels like the pain is the pain of

37:22trying to do something is is what

37:24creates good art as well. But yeah, I

37:26mean I'm I'm But but you're it could be

37:28either

37:29>> There's pain in it anyway.

37:30>> There's pain anyway.

37:31>> Yeah, there's pain in you know, getting

37:33up in front of people and them not

37:34laughing is painful.

37:36>> Yeah, yeah, there's pain in it anyway.

37:38Yeah, there's pain in it anyway.

37:39>> If that means you also can eat, I don't

37:42know if that makes it less more or less

37:44painful.

37:45>> Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's almost like

37:47giving ourselves permission to make art.

37:50Like I feel like there's a moment where

37:51you go, now I'm worthy almost. But what

37:54you're saying is you were always worthy

37:55because it's who you are.

37:56>> Yes, you're always worthy as who you

37:58are.

37:58>> Yeah. Why do you think we don't feel

38:00worthy of

38:03anything, not just making art, but so

38:04many of us I think feel a sense of like

38:06we're not worthy to do what we love.

38:08We're not worthy to share our purpose or

38:10our passion. There's a sense of we don't

38:12want to give ourselves

38:12>> I think there's a mythology that the

38:15people who make things that we love are

38:17special people.

38:19And that we think that they're, you

38:20know, the people on Mount Olympus and

38:23they're these magic people who are

38:25geniuses and then there's the rest of

38:27us.

38:28And that's not the case. It's like we're

38:30all just people. We're all doing our

38:32best. We all are good at some things,

38:35not good at other things. We're humans

38:37and sometimes we find a way to make

38:39something beautiful.

38:40>> Mhm.

38:41>> But that's it. It's it's

38:42>> [laughter]

38:43>> Do you know what I mean? There's no

38:44There are no special people, really.

38:46We're all special.

38:47>> Yeah. You talk about this idea of larger

38:49intelligence

38:51and and tapping into and even making

38:53almost journaling about dreams which I

38:55found was something that I'm definitely

38:58going to practically take on. So, I've

38:59never journaled about dreams. I know I

39:03dream and there's times when I forget

39:04and there's times when I remember and

39:06sometimes I'll tell some of sometimes I

39:08won't and I I when I read you say that

39:10you actually wrote about dreams and

39:12journaled about dreams, I was like, all

39:13right, I'm going to start doing that

39:13now. So, that's something you've

39:15directly impacted me to do as a

39:17practical thing because

39:19I feel like I've had fascinating dreams

39:20in the past, I've forgotten, I've It's

39:22It's too messy.

39:23>> And they go

39:24>> And they go

39:25>> very quickly.

39:26>> So quickly, so quickly. And that's when

39:28I was reading that part, I was like,

39:29okay, I need to hold on to these.

39:31>> So, some of the tricks I I

39:32>> Yes.

39:33>> talk to some degree in the book, but not

39:35so I just touch on it in the book.

39:37There's so much to talk about.

39:39Um but when you wake up, you don't move

39:41at all because the the way the dream

39:43works, it's a chemical reaction in your

39:45brain. So, it's also good to know if you

39:48wake up from a scary dream and you don't

39:50want to think about it, if you just

39:52shake your head around, it'll be gone.

39:54So, you keep pen paper right next to

39:56your bed and the minute you wake up

39:59you grab the pen and paper moving as

40:01little as possible and just start

40:03writing. And even if you only remember I

40:05remember there's a part in the dream

40:07where this happens, write the part you

40:09remember and you'll see through the

40:11process of writing

40:13more of the dream will appear.

40:15It's you don't even when you wake up,

40:16you don't you won't remember as much of

40:18it as you know, but once you start

40:20writing, you can start tapping into

40:23more. Oh, and before that, this

40:25happened. And then this happened after

40:27that. And you'll start noticing more

40:30details. And the more you practice it,

40:31the better you get at it.

40:33>> Mhm.

40:33>> So, I did that for a period of time. And

40:36at the time, the dreams made no sense.

40:39They were just these abstract, you know,

40:41Salvador Dali paintings.

40:42>> Oh.

40:43>> And [laughter] yeah. And just went on

40:45abstract, I've no idea, strange, strange

40:47dreams, no idea what they are. And then

40:49years later, I found that journal. And

40:52and I read it. And

40:55when they were happening, I thought

40:57every dream every night was completely

40:58different. And none of them were about

41:00anything I understood. And years later,

41:03when I looked back at it,

41:05all the dreams were about the same

41:06thing.

41:07>> [laughter]

41:07>> And they all were It was so clear what

41:10my subconscious was telling me. Uh I

41:13don't remember what it was, cuz it was

41:14probably 20 20 some odd years ago. But I

41:16remember being shocked by oh, this

41:19didn't make I was too close to it to

41:21understand it. I was too close. And with

41:24a little bit of distance, you can see

41:26what it is.

41:26>> Yeah. Yeah.

41:27>> And it's also interesting to see how

41:29your subconscious works. How it

41:32how your subconscious

41:35abstracts

41:36reality to show it to us in a way that's

41:39intriguing

41:41and interesting, but not obvious.

41:45It's very beautiful.

41:46>> Mhm. The reason why I love that so much

41:49is I even had to retract the

41:52immediate question that came into my

41:54mind. And I retracted it because And

41:55I'll tell everyone what it is, but I

41:57retracted it because

41:58I just love the act of observing and

42:02being present with your dream as as

42:03you're showing us how to do. And the

42:06modern-day question is, well, what's the

42:07benefit of that? Like, why why would you

42:09do that? And and when I was asking in my

42:12head, I was like

42:13if I just listen to you and I'm

42:14listening to you and I'm remember

42:15reading what I read and I'm thinking

42:18the benefit is just the act of observing

42:20and just being there and and and being

42:22and then like you said, being able to

42:23then look back

42:25potentially and potentially in the

42:26future, maybe not, maybe it is to see if

42:29there are connections. And the

42:30subconscious, you're so right, is is

42:32speaking to us in almost such a

42:34compassionate, artful way

42:36>> Yes.

42:36>> without telling you on the nose, but

42:39>> It's an important point. Don't do things

42:42just because you think you're going to

42:43get something for it.

42:45That's not why we do things. Do what's

42:47interesting to you.

42:49Follow what's interesting. Don't worry

42:51about the outcome.

43:03>> [music]