RELATIONSHIP EXPERT: Anxious People Are Addicted to Unavailable Partners (& How to Fix it!)

0:00Hey everyone, welcome back to OnPurpose.

0:02Today my guest is Tais Gibson, the

0:05founder of the personal development

0:06school and the creator of the new

0:09attachment theory, integrated attachment

0:12theory. Being a leading expert in the

0:13space, she helps people understand their

0:16relationship patterns, heal core wounds,

0:18and build secure lasting love. In Tais's

0:22book, The New Attachment Theory: Heal

0:24Every Relationship by Rewiring Your

0:26Brain and Nervous System, she shares

0:28practical tools to change the patterns

0:30that shape how we connect. Ta Gibson,

0:33welcome to On Purpose.

0:34>> Thank you so much for having me. You're

0:36lovely and I'm just I'm really excited

0:37to chat with you.

0:38>> I'm so grateful to have you here, Ta. I

0:39feel like the world got addicted to

0:42attachment styles and got fascinated

0:45with the language. Yeah.

0:46>> And I think what so often happens is we

0:48find language to support how we feel,

0:51how we think, but then you're

0:53encouraging us with the new attachment

0:55theory to actually encourage us to heal,

0:58to transform, to grow. And I feel this

1:00is a conversation that every single

1:02person needs to hear because whether

1:04it's their love life, whether it's their

1:06workplace, whether it's their personal

1:08image of who they are, this conversation

1:11will make a difference in their life.

1:12Could you start by telling me if someone

1:14listens to our conversation today, what

1:16will change for them?

1:18>> I think the biggest thing and to your

1:19point like I love that everybody I've

1:21been studying this work for a long time

1:22and in this field for a long time and

1:23when attachment cell started becoming

1:25more mainstream. I was so excited

1:27[snorts] and then over time I started

1:28thinking like wait it's almost becoming

1:31to the point where people are just

1:32identifying with it almost as a label

1:34going oh I just am this attachment style

1:36rather than being in a position of going

1:38wait I have to heal this like let me

1:40understand this this temporary label

1:42gives me context into the things within

1:44me that may need a little bit more love

1:46or healing or support but the actual

1:49work is being able to say okay here are

1:51my patterns where do they come from and

1:52then actually rewiring them at the

1:54subconscious level and that's what We

1:55definitely hope the the key takeaway is

1:57for today.

1:58>> If someone has no idea what attachment

1:59styles are and this is their first time

2:01even hearing that term, how would you

2:03break it down for them and define it for

2:04them?

2:04>> Yeah. So the first thing is everybody

2:06has an attachment style and there are

2:07four of them and this is one of the

2:09biggest studied bodies of work

2:11originally and it originally came from

2:13John Bulby and Maryworth of Cambridge

2:15University and they said hey there are

2:17four attachment styles. The first one is

2:19the securely attached style. So they

2:20represent about 50% of the population

2:22data shows us. I always have a hard time

2:24with that. I'm like, wait, it seems like

2:26it may not be quite so high, but

2:28basically they h securely attached

2:30individuals are people who grew up in

2:32childhood with what we call a lot of

2:34approach oriented behaviors from their

2:35parents. And it sounds like such a small

2:37thing, but it goes such a long way. So

2:39approachoriented behaviors really means

2:41that when a child is young, if they cry

2:43or they get distressed, the parent is

2:45attuned. They're very present and they

2:47notice it and they approach the child to

2:49be like, "What's wrong?" And they

2:50attempt to soo them and make the child

2:52feel better. And what that conditions a

2:54child to believe at a very young age is

2:55my emotions are worthy of being seen and

2:57heard. It's safe to rely on other

2:59people. I can trust that people are

3:00going to be there for me. And also I can

3:02communicate. And almost most

3:04importantly, I am worthy of love as I am

3:07on my good days, on my bad days, in my

3:09good moments and in my hard moments. And

3:11so there's a lot of really healthy

3:13conditioning that that child adopts. And

3:15so of course that's the type of

3:16patterning they bring into their

3:17relationships as adults. And what's

3:19really interesting to me is that

3:20securely attached people, they report

3:22not just having the longest

3:24relationships, but they report the most

3:25satisfaction in their relationships. And

3:27that's a very meaningful thing. And I'm

3:29just a big believer in relationships. I

3:30love people. I care about people. And I

3:32I really think that relationships

3:34determine the quality of our life in so

3:35many ways. And so that's very meaningful

3:37in terms of, you know, the the stats on

3:39that.

3:40>> And then we have three insecure

3:41attachment styles. This makes up the

3:43other 50% or so of the population.

3:44>> I can't believe 50% of people are

3:46secure. That's that's huge. That's what

3:48I think all the time.

3:49>> I feel like all my girlfriends are

3:50struggling to find that that kind of

3:52person. Like all my friends who are

3:53dating are all my friends who are dating

3:55are definitely struggling to find that

3:5750%.

3:57>> I always think that myself and and to be

3:59honest, first of all, it's conditioning

4:01and we'll get into a lot of this, I'm

4:02sure, but but conditioning changes. So

4:04somebody could be secure at a young age

4:05when a lot of these experiments are

4:06originally done and then they can go

4:07through relationship struggles and

4:09become insecure later. And secondly, I'm

4:11always like, "Oh, maybe it's my sample

4:12size of people, you know, cuz I always

4:14see people who are insecurely attached

4:15becomese." So I'm going, "Okay, maybe

4:16that's why." But securely attached

4:18people often end up in relationships

4:19pretty early with other securely

4:20attached people. And we can get into why

4:22that happens at a subconscious level cuz

4:24you usually pair up with people of a

4:26specific attachment cell for specific

4:28reasons. Um but to your point I wonder

4:30the same thing. I'm like come on this

4:31down I don't know. [laughter]

4:32>> Yeah.

4:33>> But the other 50% are the insecure

4:34attachment.

4:35>> Exactly. So then we have three and I

4:37like to think of the other three as

4:38being along a continuum in a way. So at

4:40one end of the continuum you have the

4:41anxious attachment style. Anxiously

4:43attached individuals, they grow up with

4:45either real or perceived abandonment.

4:48Real abandonment is the obvious. You

4:50know, a parent passes away at a young

4:51age, god forbid, or a parent is, you

4:53know, they leave at a young age for a

4:55child and all of a sudden that child

4:56grows up feeling like, "Oh my gosh, am I

4:58going to be left or abandoned again?"

4:59Perceived abandonment is really

5:01interesting because the neuroscience of

5:03trauma tells us that small tea trauma

5:05repeatedly enough over time has a quite

5:07similar impact to a singular big tea

5:10trauma. So perceived abandonment

5:12consistently in a child's upbringing

5:14caused them to have real real

5:15abandonment wounds as an adult similar

5:16to if there was a real abandonment that

5:18took place. And perceived abandonment is

5:20things like you have very loving

5:22parents, but they're really busy.

5:23They're always working. They're always

5:24traveling for work. And so children grow

5:25up in this environment going, "Okay,

5:27love is here." And then love is taken

5:29away. And love is here and it's taken

5:30away. And that inconsistency there

5:33causes this child to really brace and

5:36deeply fear love being taken away. And

5:38so as adults, these individuals, they

5:40adapt in their life to be like, "Let me

5:42really be charming and charismatic and

5:44well-liked." So I win people over and

5:46they end up having superpowers in that

5:48way in many forms, but also anxiously

5:50attached adults, they people please so

5:52much to the point where they can burn

5:53themselves out or they people please to

5:55the point of self- silencing and their

5:58big wounds. So So we took this original

6:01body of attachment theory and they, you

6:03know, it said, "Here are your four

6:04attachment cells. Good luck." [laughter]

6:05And it was sort of like, wait, but you

6:07can recondition pretty much anything.

6:09Like you can rewire these things. And I

6:11originally started in this work for that

6:13reason. Um, and so what we found is that

6:15anxious attachment cells, they have big

6:17core wounds specifically around the fear

6:19of abandonment, the fear of being alone,

6:21excluded, disliked, rejected, not good

6:24enough. These are like these huge wounds

6:26and triggers in their relationships. And

6:28they need very specific things in

6:29relationships. They need more

6:30validation, approval. They really like

6:33certainty. If somebody cancels plans

6:35with them, they really want to know,

6:36okay, you're canceling plans, but tell

6:38me when I'm going to see you next, and

6:39then they can sort of rest and feel

6:40comfortable and safe. Um, and so they

6:42end up in situations where they

6:44sometimes struggle with their boundaries

6:45growing up. They often end up in

6:47situations as well where because they're

6:49so busy making sure that everybody else

6:51is good, they kind of forget about

6:53themselves and they put themselves on

6:54the back burner. So anxious attachment

6:56styles as adults, they often also are

6:58very much invested in and attracted to

7:00emotionally unavailable people. And that

7:02becomes really problematic in different

7:04way that part. Yeah.

7:06>> Yeah. So they become attracted to

7:08emotionally unavailable people because

7:10and and I guess maybe I'll give a little

7:11bit more of a backstory to this. Um, you

7:14know, for me, I originally got into this

7:16work because I, uh, you know, had a

7:19turbulent childhood and I actually got

7:21addicted to painkillers after a knee

7:22surgery at 15. And I, you know, really

7:26struggled with about a 6-year daily use

7:28of opioids and tried inatient rehab and

7:30outpatient rehab and had all of these

7:32these things come up. And what was

7:34really interesting is I felt like life

7:36was really hard and I felt like

7:37relationships were really hard at that

7:39point. And I tried a lot of things that

7:41weren't really working. And I was in

7:43school for psychology and like maybe on

7:45the outside my life looked like you're

7:47doing well. You're you're okay. But on

7:49the inside I was like a mess. Like I was

7:50really hurting. And I was in a psych

7:53class and I was seriously thinking like

7:54I think I need to leave school. Like I

7:55don't think I can take this handle this.

7:57And somebody said to me in a class they

7:59were like it wasn't even the professor.

8:00It was a a student and he said oh your

8:02conscious mind can't outwill or

8:04overpower your subconscious mind. And

8:06for me that was like so powerful because

8:09I was sitting there going, "Oh, so

8:11you're telling me that like all the

8:14times I say I'm going to get clean. I'm

8:15going to change my life. I'm gonna, you

8:17know, stop all these these really

8:18painful things that I'm doing. I'm going

8:19to delete people's numbers from my

8:21phone. I'm going to change." And then I

8:23don't. It's not that I'm weak or

8:25powerless or not capable. It's that like

8:27this is actually what's going on. It's

8:29my subconscious mind. So I originally

8:31started this work by getting sober and

8:34then being obsessed with learning about

8:35the subconscious mind and the ego and

8:37how all this works from sort of this

8:39like spiritual perspective too. How do

8:40we sort of transcend those patterns and

8:42those conditions? So I was originally

8:44working for the first few years of my

8:45practice not with attachment selves but

8:47actually with people in their core

8:48wounds. So like what are these big

8:50triggers that we carry from our past

8:53into our present and and you know how is

8:55this showing up in our life? And so what

8:57was really interesting about that is I

8:59was working with people on rewiring

9:00their triggers, learning their own needs

9:02and how to meet them in healthy ways,

9:04learning to regulate their nervous

9:05system, learning to communicate and set

9:07boundaries. And then I came to

9:09attachment styles actually because I met

9:11my now husband and we both had our own

9:13little things we hadn't worked out in

9:14relationships yet. And I started

9:16revisiting attachment theory which I

9:18learned at a very high level in

9:19university. And I was like, wait. Like,

9:23first of all, if I know somebody's

9:25attachment style, I now know exactly

9:27what their core wounds are going to be,

9:29exactly what their needs are going to

9:30be, exactly what these emotional

9:31patterns are going to be in

9:32relationships, and what their nervous

9:33system is going to be functioning like.

9:35And I know what types of boundary issues

9:37they're going to have, and how they tend

9:38to communicate in relationships. And it

9:40was so interesting cuz like original

9:42attachment theory didn't cover any of

9:43that. It was more about like temperament

9:44and sort of some of your behaviors. And

9:46so I was like, "Oh my gosh, tell me

9:47somebody's attachment style and I can

9:49help them rewire all these different

9:50patterns and themes." And so what was

9:53really exciting to me is like attachment

9:54styles became mainstream, but then it

9:56was like, "Okay, here's your attachment

9:57style." And that's when people start to

9:59identify instead of like, "Hey, let me

10:00do that that underlying work." So So

10:02going back to I detourred there, but but

10:05going back to this, that's the anxious

10:07attachment cell in a nutshell is like

10:08those are their themes and their

10:09patterns. They fear like the

10:11abandonment, feeling not good enough,

10:13feeling excluded, disliked, rejected.

10:15Those are those big triggers that

10:16they're bringing from their past because

10:18their subconscious mind was imprinted

10:19with that. And then we always project

10:22that into the present. And I often give

10:23people this analogy of like a bear in

10:25the woods. If you go into the woods

10:27tomorrow and you see a bear and you run

10:30from it and you're safe, thank goodness,

10:32but then the very next day you go back

10:33into the woods, well, what does your

10:35mind do? You're like bracing for the

10:37bear. You're like, "The bear is coming.

10:38The trees blow in the wind." And you're

10:39like, "Oh my god, the bear." And so

10:41what's really interesting is that we all

10:44do that, right? We all have, oh, I felt

10:45abandoned as a child. Okay, I project

10:47that as an adult. Oh, I felt not good

10:49enough as a child. That's what I bring

10:50into my relationships as an adult. And

10:51that's honestly what our relationship

10:52baggage is. And those are all things

10:54that interfere the most in our

10:55relationships, but those are solvable

10:57problems. So that's sort of the anxious

10:59attachment style. And do you want me to

11:00go into the other two?

11:01>> Yes, please. Yeah, absolutely.

11:02>> Okay. So we have our secure, we have our

11:03anxious. At the other end of the

11:05continuum is our dismissive avoidant. So

11:07the dismissive avoidant attachment

11:08style, they grow up with their

11:10overarching theme being childhood

11:12emotional neglect. [snorts] And

11:14sometimes you hear that and you kind of

11:16imagine that, okay, this person is going

11:18through their childhood and you know

11:20they have this really intense dynamic

11:22where they're alone at 3 years old and

11:25they're trying to find food. Like of

11:26course it can be these really extreme

11:27scenarios, but most often childhood

11:29emotional neglect is very much that you

11:32have these kids who food's on the table.

11:34There's structure and order. They're at

11:36school on time, but their parents are

11:37not emotionally available and not

11:38attuned. And it's usually not the

11:40inconsistency like one's attuned and

11:41one's not. It's usually both are not

11:43really attuned and they're much more

11:44uninvolved. And because children are

11:47literally wired for attunement, they are

11:49wired for connection. We need as

11:51children to feel safe and to feel seen

11:52and to feel special. Children come into

11:54this environment and they're like,

11:56"Okay, well, I guess this part of me

11:58that needs this is is defective and

11:59wrong." And so what they end up doing to

12:01adapt to an environment like that is

12:03repressing their attachment needs and

12:05minimizing their need for emotional

12:06connection. And so they feel better and

12:08like they have a sense of control when

12:10they're able to do that. But then as

12:12adults that really causes destruction to

12:15their relationships because they've

12:16learned, okay, this part of me, my

12:17emotional vulnerable self is defective

12:20or shameful. If I express it too much,

12:23I'll be weak. These are their big

12:24triggers. They end up feeling very

12:25afraid of relying on other people and

12:27being helpless or trapped in a situation

12:29or engulfed. And they very much

12:31internalize a lot of shame from

12:33childhood because as a child if you

12:35yearn for connection and it keeps

12:37getting rejected and nobody's paying

12:39attention well then of course as an

12:40adult you're like oh deep down if people

12:42really see me they're going to reject me

12:44like that too and I must be shameful.

12:45Like something deep down must be

12:46defective or broken within me. And so

12:48it's so interesting because they're very

12:50stoic. Dismissible winds are very stoic.

12:51We often don't see it, but that tends to

12:53be what they bring into their

12:55relationships. Those are their biggest

12:56core triggers and fears from this like

12:58new attachment theory perspective. And

13:00so then we have these adults who go into

13:02their relationships and they're the

13:03types of individuals as adults who are

13:05like, "Oh, they're they're great at the

13:06beginning when everything's easy and

13:08light and then after you date them for

13:10four, five, 6 months when things get a

13:11little more real and serious, they jet

13:14or they pull away or they retreat and

13:16then they end up in situations where,

13:18you know, even if they make it through

13:20that that period of time and keep dating

13:22somebody and keep investing, they really

13:24retreat emotionally and they shut down.

13:26And [snorts] so then you have these

13:28individuals as adults who are like,

13:29okay, you know, I I feel like I'm trying

13:32to connect with you and my partner's not

13:33really available or present and they

13:35really cope by trying to always minimize

13:37their attachment needs and create space

13:39and so they become quite distant in

13:41relationships. And then the very last

13:42one is the fearful avoidant attachment

13:44style. Um fearful avoidance are

13:46basically characterized by more big tea

13:48trauma growing up. So more emotional

13:50chaos. You know, it can be anything from

13:52like having a parent with narcissistic

13:53personality disorder to having a parent

13:55who was an alcoholic or parents in

13:57active addiction, a really intense

13:58divorce growing up. You have more

14:00extreme kind of scenarios that the

14:01children are exposed to. But their

14:04wiring is such that while an anxious

14:07attachment style is like they always

14:09want more closeness and to win people

14:10over and dismissive avoidance always

14:12want more space and to keep distance,

14:14fearful avoidance learn that love is

14:16both a really good thing and a really

14:17hard thing.

14:18>> Interesting. So, they grow up

14:20essentially going, "Well, love is a good

14:22thing." Because let's say, for example,

14:23that mom is an alcoholic. Well, maybe

14:25one day mom comes home and she's had a

14:27few drinks, but she's in a good mood and

14:29she's loving and she embraces you and

14:30you're like, "Oh, love is safe. Love is

14:32good. I want more of this." And then

14:33other days, maybe mom's an alcoholic and

14:36she's drinking more heavily and now

14:37she's angry, drunk, and she's cruel and

14:38she's mean and she's unpredictable. And

14:41a child is like, "Well, love is a really

14:42good thing, but it can also really hurt

14:44me. It will be really harsh and critical

14:46and cruel sometimes to me." And so they

14:48end up having very competing

14:49associations about the same thing.

14:51They're like, "Love is both really good

14:52and really bad." And then as adults,

14:54what ends up happening is they're the

14:56very hot and cold partner. A lot of

14:58their core wounds from their childhood,

14:59their version of the bear in the woods,

15:01is they fear abandonment because they

15:02feel that abandonment when that love

15:04isn't there. They fear being trapped and

15:06helpless if they rely on people cuz

15:08they've had times where they rely on

15:09somebody who's really unpredictable and

15:10scary. And they have a huge core wound

15:12around feeling betrayed. That's the

15:14biggest wound we found from an the new

15:16attachment theory perspective is like

15:18always waiting for the other shoe to

15:19drop. Always waiting to to be on high

15:21alert like is somebody going to hurt me?

15:23And what happens to fearful avoidance is

15:25they get into relationships and love

15:27feels like a very bittersweet

15:28experience. And I'll speak for myself

15:30cuz I was a fearful avoidant. And I

15:33remember before doing a lot of deep

15:34inner work, my early serious

15:36relationships when I was much younger,

15:38feeling like I would fall in love and

15:40feeling like I loved the feeling of

15:42being in love and connecting and really

15:44wanted that depth and and connection.

15:46But it was also very bittersweet because

15:48the more I loved, the more I was like,

15:51"Oh, you're for sure going to hurt me

15:52that much more. Like, this is going to

15:53be a really bad ending." And there was

15:54this sort of belief that everything was

15:56going to inevitably be really bad and

15:58really painful. So love feels so good,

16:00but it also feels like a threat and it's

16:01scary and it causes you in a

16:03relationship to be like, "Come get

16:04close. Come get close." Somebody gets

16:05close, you're like, "Get back. I changed

16:07my mind." And so you see this and you

16:09see it like clockwork. I've seen this

16:11with tens of thousands of clients I've

16:12worked with the same themes, the same

16:14patterns. And I remember having one

16:16woman and she said to me, I could tell

16:18by the way my mom got home from work. I

16:21would be upstairs in my room and I could

16:22tell by the way my mom closed the door

16:24on her way in if I should close my door

16:26quickly or not. And it's like fearful of

16:27winds learn to be very hypervigilant.

16:29They learn to read between the lines.

16:31They read like every little micro

16:33expression and body language and change

16:34in a tone of voice because that's how

16:36they've learned to attach. So anxious

16:38people are like let me let me get close

16:40to you. And people please dismissive

16:41avoidance are like let me keep space.

16:43Fearful avoidance are like let me notice

16:45every little thing about you so I can

16:47predict your future and I can know how

16:49to respond. And it gives them that

16:51superpower in a way. But often then when

16:52you have these wounds and then you jump

16:54to conclusions like, "Oh, something

16:55changed. Something's off. You're going

16:57to abandon or betray me or you're trying

16:58to control me." And you sort of jump to

17:00those conclusions, it makes for a really

17:01turbulent set of relationships and

17:03lifestyle.

17:04>> I think what you just explained, I think

17:07everyone listening is like, "That's who

17:09I am. That's who I've dated.

17:11>> That's who my parents are." Right? Like

17:14when you break it down that way, I feel

17:16it gives people so much clarity to

17:19actually recognize all the mistakes

17:20they're repeating, all the things

17:22they're carrying. Why we walk into

17:26relationships where we can sense

17:28something doesn't quite make sense or

17:30why we get attracted to familiar

17:32patterns that we saw in our parents. It

17:35feels like this can help people actually

17:37give them a map of how to make sense of

17:40their emotions and even the people they

17:43meet. What would you encourage someone

17:45to do differently if someone's listening

17:47right now and they're dating? How can

17:50they use what you've just shared to date

17:52differently?

17:53>> Yeah. So, really good question. So, you

17:55touched on something earlier and I

17:57sidetracked and forgot to come back to

17:58it, but it's actually this. It's that we

18:00you were like what causes that sort of

18:01attraction piece and this plays right

18:03into this which is we are attracted to

18:05people. So your conscious mind is

18:07responsible for 3 to 5% of all of your

18:09beliefs, your thoughts, your emotions,

18:10your actions. Your subconscious and

18:12unconscious collectively are 95 to 97%.

18:15And so it's really interesting is

18:17consciously our conscious mind is our

18:18logical analytical mind and our

18:19subconscious is our habituated self, our

18:21programming, our conditioning. And our

18:24conscious mind will say I want the

18:26emotionally available partner. I want

18:28the person who's ready to be in a rel.

18:29We'll say all the things in the world,

18:31but secure people feel that consciously

18:34and subconsciously. Insecure people

18:36don't. Insecurely attached people don't

18:37really have that same experience. So,

18:38for example, our subconscious mind

18:42equates familiarity to safety and thus

18:45survival. And ultimately, we're survival

18:46wired. And so what ends up happening is

18:48people who are let's say anxiously

18:50attached for example they'll often say

18:52consciously that they want the

18:53emotionally available partner but they

18:55will feel most attracted to and be most

18:57likely to invest in because your

18:59subconscious mind runs the show people

19:01who are most familiar. What is most

19:04familiar to each of us is actually the

19:07way we treat ourselves.

19:09>> And so if you look at the anxious

19:11person, how does the anxious person

19:12treat themselves? because they're so

19:13externally focused on everybody else's

19:15feelings and needs. They often dismiss

19:16and avoid their own feelings, their

19:18needs, their boundaries. And so what

19:20happens as a result of that is they are

19:22very much often attracted to people who

19:24will mirror that back to them. And even

19:26if you flip that around to the

19:27dismissive avoidant, dismissive

19:29avoidance end up in situations where

19:30they're like preoccupied with their own

19:32time to themselves. They're going, "Do I

19:34have enough time to myself to regulate?

19:35Do I have enough space?" And so what's

19:37really interesting is consciously

19:38they'll say, "Oh, I want somebody who

19:40gets my freedom and and respects it."

19:42But subconsciously they'll often go and

19:44invest in people who are very

19:45preoccupied with them. And so that's why

19:47you often pair up with people of

19:48different attachment cells. And that's

19:49often why you see secure people be with

19:51secure people. And so when it comes to

19:53dating, the most important thing, and I

19:55will say this forever, and nobody likes

19:56to hear it, but it's the truth, is that

19:58the most important thing you're ever

20:00going to do is learn to have a secure

20:01relationship with yourself first. And

20:03that's going to be through rewiring

20:04these insecure patterns. And I'm sure we

20:06can get into all the ways how, but but

20:08rewiring those insecure patterns because

20:11you can say that you want the healthiest

20:12relationship. You can have your

20:13checklist. You can know your needs. You

20:15can try to ask all the right questions

20:16on the dates and go to the right places

20:18and find the right people. But

20:19ultimately, you often will find that

20:21you're in relationships with people who

20:22might have all those things on the

20:23checklist and you're like, I just don't

20:25feel attracted to them. Oh, this person,

20:27and I've heard this all the time. I

20:28actually used to do this when I was much

20:30younger before doing the work. I had

20:31people I would date them or start to get

20:33to know them and they were very secure

20:34and I would be like

20:35>> this is kind of boring like [laughter]

20:38where's where's the roller coaster

20:39because that's what was most familiar

20:41and this is a a conversation I've had

20:43with thousands of people at this point

20:45we are not going to be attracted to the

20:46right people according to our conscious

20:48mind's evaluation of it until we do that

20:51in our workforce to heal to become

20:52secure to self and then that's what

20:54we'll be attracted to and want to invest

20:56in with other people

20:56>> that makes so much sense it's why making

20:59the list of everything you want in your

21:01ideal person doesn't just make sense

21:03because that's your conscious mind. Or

21:05this idea of oh if you vision them and

21:07dream them and vision board them doesn't

21:09make sense because that's your conscious

21:10mind. And while everything meanwhile

21:13everything's happening in your

21:14subconscious mind which isn't ready

21:16isn't prepared is rejecting someone

21:18that's actually good for you is boring

21:21and accepting someone who's terrible for

21:23you because it's familiar. And so the

21:25chaos and the ups and downs. And so that

21:28may it now makes sense listening to that

21:30why we're attracted to the people that

21:34make us feel insecure or people that are

21:38not emotionally available because we've

21:40had that before. So we know what

21:42behaviors to play into which is I'll be

21:44hypervigilant if I'm a fearful avoidant.

21:46I'll be super distant if I'm one. You

21:49know, it's it's fascinating to me that

21:52Yeah. Just listening to that just makes

21:53it make sense. And as you said, the

21:56advice you just gave is becoming secure

21:58in your relationship with yourself.

22:00You're not just saying, hey, you have to

22:01love yourself first or you have to you

22:03you're saying to actually you can

22:05actually technically

22:06develop a subconscious relationship with

22:09yourself that is based on security and

22:12safety.

22:13>> Yes. So earlier when I was saying there

22:15was the original attachment theory was

22:16like these are the attachment cells, but

22:17it kind of just talked about their

22:18temperaments and some of the themes in

22:20their childhood and how they behave. I

22:22had already been doing this work with

22:23like the core wounds and the needs and

22:25the nervous system frameworks with

22:26people and and how people communicate

22:28and how they behave and I was

22:29specifically in the body of work for the

22:31first few years. I was working with

22:32people just helping people like rewire

22:34their painful patterns and a lot of it

22:36was from their childhood conditioning

22:37but I hadn't ever put it into the theme

22:39of like attachment styles. And then when

22:42I you know met my husband and we we

22:44started getting more serious and I was

22:45like ooh I still have a little like

22:47relationship work to do. I'd done a lot

22:48of work to be really peaceful within

22:50myself, but realized I had a little

22:51relationship work to do with him and

22:53kind of felt like he also had some work

22:54to do with me. And I I revisited more

22:57about learning about relationships. And

22:59the first thing I went back to was like,

23:00"Oh, attachment cells." And I was like,

23:01"Oh my goodness, once I know somebody's

23:03attachment cell, every attachment cell

23:04has these core wounds and these patterns

23:06with their needs and these patterns with

23:08their nervous system, communication,

23:09behaviors." And so what we ended up

23:12creating is this whole body of work

23:14that's you can actually rewire each of

23:16those things at the subconscious level

23:18because your subconscious mind is

23:19literally driving your life. And so it's

23:21like all of the conditioning that we've

23:22picked up from past experiences in our

23:24own personal warehouse. How do we start

23:26to recondition? And we really boil it

23:27into those five pillars. So the first

23:30pillar and this is like I love that you

23:32said it's not just about self-love cuz

23:34sometimes I don't know sometimes you

23:35hear stuff and people say just forgive

23:36people and you're like that would be

23:38nice if I felt like that. How do I

23:39emotionally arrive there and how do I

23:41actually feel that deeply? And so a lot

23:42of the work is how do we actually get to

23:44our subconscious mind because that's how

23:45things unfold this way. And same with

23:47self- loveve. It's a subconscious

23:48process cuz if you didn't get love

23:50mirror to in healthy ways growing up,

23:53you're going to mirror that back in the

23:54relationship to yourself and as adult

23:55and then you're going to be attracted to

23:56to unhealthy forms of love as an adult

23:58with other people. So So first pillar of

24:01really healing is to learn to rewire

24:03your core wounds. And [snorts] we can go

24:05through an actual exercise here. So,

24:07first um step, there's three steps to

24:10doing this. Let's just say for ease sake

24:12that the core wound is not good enough.

24:13And we talked about each of them for the

24:14different attachment styles earlier. So,

24:16people can kind of hold that core wound

24:17in their mind that stood out to them.

24:18And you ideally want to work on one at a

24:20time. So, not good enough. What is the

24:22opposite? I am good enough. That part's

24:24really easy. [snorts] The second piece

24:26when it comes to actually rewiring these

24:28things is I'm not a big believer in

24:29affirmations. [snorts] The reason being

24:32that affirmations are of the conscious

24:33mind. Your conscious mind speaks

24:36language. Okay? Your subconscious mind

24:38does not speak language. It doesn't

24:40really understand language much at all.

24:42>> What does a subconscious mind speak?

24:44>> It speaks in emotions and images.

24:46[snorts] So if I say to you, okay,

24:47whatever you do, Jay, do not think of a

24:49pink elephant. Like you probably flashed

24:52an image of a pink elephant. Even though

24:54you you heard, do not. Your conscious

24:56mind heard do not. And then after you

24:57flash the image and you're like, "Oh, I

24:58shouldn't have thought of the the

24:59elephant." And that's because our

25:00subconscious also reacts a little bit

25:02more quickly than our conscious mind in

25:03many ways. So, so we have to actually

25:05use our conscious mind to rewire our

25:07subconscious mind because we can do that

25:09but we actually our conscious mind

25:10cannot outwill or overpower our

25:12subconscious mind can only rewire it.

25:14Part of why you hear people be like,

25:16"Oh, I said I was going to quit eating

25:17chocolate for my New Year's resolution

25:18and then they go back to eating

25:19chocolate 3 days later." Cuz unless

25:21things are built into your subconscious,

25:22we really have a hard time changing

25:24behaviors. So, first step, I am not good

25:25enough. I am good enough. The opposite

25:27of your core wound. I'll be abandoned.

25:28I'm worthy of connection. I'll be

25:30unloved. I'm lovable. Right? So, we we

25:32pick the opposite. Step two is we need

25:35repetition of emotions and imagery

25:38because repetition fires and wires

25:40neural pathways. Emotions and images do

25:42it at the subconscious level. So you're

25:44like, "How do we find emotions and

25:45images?" Well, interestingly, every

25:47memory we ever have is a container of

25:51emotions and imagery.

25:52>> Yeah. Absolutely.

25:52>> So if you say, "Okay, what was your

25:54favorite childhood memory?" and you were

25:55playing at the beach or the ocean and

25:57you see the red bucket and you see the

25:59the waves and your family's faces like

26:01you see the images and we've all seen

26:03when people have an exciting experience

26:05or a happy memory they smile or they

26:07laugh or their body language changes and

26:10so what we do is we're going to come up

26:11with 10 memories to support the new idea

26:14that we're trying to drive to the

26:15subconscious mind so for example I am

26:17good enough 10 times I actually felt

26:20good enough and they do not have to be

26:22big it can be things like I was a good

26:23friend last week I had a hard

26:25conversation with my spouse two weeks

26:26ago. Whatever it is, it can be small

26:28things, but we need to just elicit a

26:30little bit of emotion, that imagery of

26:32the memory, and we need 10 of them. Step

26:35three, we record ourselves saying it out

26:37loud. So, ideally, we write them down,

26:39we record ourselves, sing it into our

26:40phone, and then our subconscious mind

26:42actually sponges up a lot of information

26:44more effectively when we are in a

26:46suggestible state, meaning our brain is

26:48producing more alpha brain waves. And so

26:50what we get people to do is to sit down.

26:52They they record themselves saying this

26:53out loud. It takes 2 minutes to listen

26:56back. And your brain produces a lot more

26:58alpha brain waves after a good

26:59meditation. The first hour that you wake

27:01up before drinking coffee, the last hour

27:04before you go to sleep, after intense

27:05exercise, breath work, these types of

27:07things, you're in more alpha brain wave

27:09mode when your mind is more relaxed,

27:10more still. And then what we're doing is

27:12we're listening back to those things

27:14during that time

27:15>> in your own voice.

27:16>> In your own voice. Exactly. Saying it

27:18out loud. You're listening back and

27:19you're very much focusing on the images

27:22and the emotion as you feel back in that

27:24suggestible state. And neuroscience

27:26research tells us if we are in a

27:28suggestible state, doing that for 21

27:30days builds new neural networks that are

27:33very strong that they are highly likely

27:35to stay. And [snorts] what's really

27:36interesting is we we surveyed people who

27:38did this. We're like, okay, like let's

27:40actually track how people are doing

27:41this. People said they stuck to it every

27:43day for 21 days. We had like tens of it

27:44was 60,000 people who we did the survey

27:46on. people who said they did not miss a

27:48day for 21 days reported a 99.7%

27:52score in actually rewiring the wound.

27:54So, it's highly effective. It's very

27:56simple and it's something like anybody

27:58can do right now. And if you really look

28:00like those wounds, those are the things

28:02that wreak havoc on people's lives and

28:04relationships. Those are the really

28:05painful things that those are

28:06relationship baggage that we're really

28:07carrying and those are why we keep

28:09choosing the wrong scenarios over and

28:10over again or that that same unavailable

28:12partner. So, really simple starter tool

28:14for rewiring. That's the one I like to

28:16share to begin with. Um, and it's

28:17something people can just do at home

28:18from listening.

28:19>> Yeah. And this is something you help

28:21people do in your school, right? Like

28:22this. So, this is the transition that

28:24you're helping people build these skills

28:27and abilities.

28:28>> Exactly. So, we really focus on we do

28:29these 90-day programs that help people

28:31go through these five pillars and rewire

28:33each of these pillars at the

28:34subconscious level. That's just the

28:35first pillar of core wounds. And I'm

28:37happy to go through like each of the

28:38pillars and share about them. But, um,

28:39that's a really good exercise we start

28:40people off with cuz it's highly

28:41effective. It's super simple. There's

28:43other cool tools that you can use as

28:44well, but it's a really good one to

28:46start. As people went through our

28:47programs, people reported a 200%

28:51increase in relationship satisfaction,

28:52feeling more connected, more happy, more

28:54fulfilled, 50% less conflict because

28:56people were more regulated, didn't have

28:58all these triggers coming up, and

28:59obviously like less fighting as a

29:01result, feeling more connected from that

29:03perspective. And then people who were

29:04out of a relationship doing this work on

29:06themselves and just, you know, preparing

29:07to go into dating reported 300% more um

29:11confidence in their dating life because

29:12they felt like they knew what they

29:14wanted, but also they weren't always

29:15triggered going into dating and

29:17panicking and having all these things

29:18come up, which is really important if

29:20you're going into relationships that

29:21way.

29:21>> Yeah. And I and I assume that unless

29:24you've done this work, even what you

29:26want may not be right or good for you,

29:28even consciously or subconsciously,

29:30right? to be honest like I don't like to

29:32fearonger people from saying it but I've

29:35just seen a lot of people over the years

29:37who they you know you build a

29:39relationship from insecure attachment

29:40first and you go in and you're in this

29:42power struggle stage of your

29:43relationship and you're fighting and

29:44you're going back and forth and it's

29:46really difficult and then people end up

29:48sometimes doing the healing work and

29:50being like my partner's not willing to

29:51do any work with me or communicate

29:53differently or do anything and like

29:54maybe I'm in the wrong relationship. So

29:56there is a risk if you're not with the

29:57right person um to do that. Now

30:00sometimes people do the work in

30:01relationships and that's beautiful and

30:02it's a really powerful potent place to

30:03be doing the work but I always tell

30:05people too like if that's the case each

30:08person in a relationship is 100%

30:10responsible for their 50% of the

30:12relationship. So it can't be one person

30:14doing all the emotional load for for

30:16both people and work looks different for

30:18different people. It's not always both

30:19people sitting down doing the

30:20reprogramming and and doing the work in

30:22that way. But one person has to be

30:24willing to practice hashing out conflict

30:26learning. You know, if one person's

30:27following our communication frameworks,

30:29the other person has to be willing to

30:30like listen and jump in and and move

30:32through conflict that way because

30:33otherwise we don't really get

30:34resolution.

30:35>> Yeah. What's the second If you could

30:37summarize for us the second to the fifth

30:39so that we have a process of what it

30:41looks like to build that relationship

30:44with oursel because as you're saying

30:45that's the most important starting

30:47point. And I'm thinking for all of our

30:48audience before we get into certain

30:51relationship dynamics, it might be

30:52useful for them to have a step-by-step

30:55process.

30:56>> Yeah. So the first wound, the first

30:57pillar is rewiring your core wounds.

30:59That gives people so much relief. And

31:01honestly, just as somebody who's done a

31:02lot of this work on myself first, I was

31:03my own first guinea pig, you know, 14,

31:0515 years ago before really getting into

31:07working with people. The biggest change

31:09I noticed is that I used to always be in

31:12this like internal emotional drama like

31:14this person is going to abandon me. This

31:16person is going to can I really trust?

31:18Is this person trying to control me?

31:19Like all of these my mind was so busy.

31:23And when I really did a lot of this

31:25rewiring out of all those painful

31:26patterns, it felt like I had I had so

31:28much space back in my mind. Like I had

31:30space to think of how I wanted to design

31:32my life and create things and just like

31:34room to be present in things. And that

31:36was just such a beautiful piece. So

31:38that's pillar number one. Pillar number

31:40two is people have to learn their own

31:44needs and how to meet them in the

31:46relationship to themselves. We'll get

31:48into how to communicate them after, but

31:49but in the relationship to self first.

31:51And the reason for this is it reminds me

31:54of one of my favorite quotes from Gabber

31:55Mate. And he says trauma are the things

31:58that happened that shouldn't have

32:00happened. That's the obvious like the

32:01the abuse things like that in childhood.

32:04But trauma is also the things that

32:05happened or that sorry that didn't

32:07happen that should have happened. And

32:09that's like the neglect you know or

32:11that's that maybe you didn't feel safe

32:13as as a child or seen or protected or

32:15you didn't feel like your parents were

32:16present enough with you growing up. So

32:18that's also trauma because in a perfect

32:20world, we actually would have had our

32:21needs met in a healthy and consistent

32:23way where we felt like we could really

32:25rely on people. And so that's our second

32:27pillar is I get people to go in and

32:29audit what are your biggest unmet needs

32:31from childhood. And [snorts] you'll see

32:33people for some people it's like I

32:34didn't feel like my parents were present

32:35enough with me or I didn't feel

32:36protected or I didn't feel like I had

32:38that ability to really learn from a

32:40parent or be deeply seen or known or

32:43attuned to. I mean there's there's a lot

32:45of needs in there, but we we give a big

32:46list of needs and it's okay if these are

32:48your deepest unmet needs. What's really

32:50interesting is we internalize all of

32:52that conditioning.

32:53>> And so whatever we didn't get met, we're

32:54often not meeting in the relationship to

32:56self. If somebody wasn't present enough

32:58with you growing up, that's actually a

33:00huge part of healing is okay, well, I'm

33:01probably not very present with myself.

33:03Or if people said, I really need

33:04validation. I didn't feel validated

33:06growing up. Um, unfortunately, usually

33:09you're playing up that programming and

33:10you're the one struggling to validate

33:12yourself the most and you're sort of

33:13validating everybody else before you.

33:15And so, what's really beautiful is it's

33:17deeply healing for people to go in audit

33:19where they're missing these deep needs.

33:21And then for 21 days through that

33:24repetition and emotion to really fire

33:25and wire those neural networks, we get

33:27people to go through here are my deepest

33:29unmet needs and actual actions and

33:31practices to meet them within

33:32relationship to self. And once we do it

33:34for 21 days very repeatedly and it

33:36elicits this emotional impact and we're

33:38doing it physiologically. So we have

33:39that like imagery that we're reaching

33:41our subconscious mind. We that becomes

33:43our new baseline. It becomes our new set

33:44point and we just become good at doing

33:45those things. And as an example as

33:48somebody who did all this work on myself

33:50first 14 years ago, 15 years ago

33:52>> [snorts]

33:52>> um one of the biggest things I really

33:54wanted was emotional depth. Like I

33:56always cared about that with other

33:58people and liking to go deep into

33:59things. And I realized oh my gosh I'm

34:01trying to and we always do this. We try

34:03to resource from other people the most.

34:05The things we struggle to self-source.

34:07>> Yes. Yeah. Well said.

34:09>> Yeah. We try to resource the most from

34:10other people the things that we struggle

34:12to self-source the most within self. And

34:14so what ends up taking place is that we

34:16also put all that pressure on their

34:18relationships. You know, anxious

34:19attachment cells, for example, they

34:20really struggle to self soo. So they're

34:21like, "My partner always needs to be

34:23available to soo me." Or fearful

34:25avoidance end up being like, "I don't

34:26know if I can trust people. I feel like

34:27they're going to betray me." So that

34:29person better always be 100% congruent.

34:31they better never tell a white lie,

34:32nothing. Or I or you know, I might have

34:34to leave the relationship. Or dismissal

34:36avoidance. They end up in situations

34:37where they're going, "Okay, well, I

34:39don't, you know, I don't know that that

34:41people understand me." [snorts] And, you

34:43know, I really need them to understand

34:44me without me having to communicate

34:46because they really struggle to

34:47communicate vulnerably. So, we all

34:49accidentally pressure our external

34:50relationships because we don't know how

34:52to self-source. And so, self-sourcing is

34:54obviously profoundly healing for our

34:55relationships in life. Um, but also it's

34:58profoundly healing in the relationship

35:00to self first.

35:01>> Where does self-sourcing come from when

35:03you've never had it and never felt it?

35:05Like I think people struggle to like

35:07where do you find it? Because I'll often

35:10talk to my friends about this idea of

35:11self- validation.

35:13And I'll talk about how self- validation

35:16is the most powerful form of validation

35:18I've ever given myself, more than any

35:21form of external validation. But often

35:24something they come up against is like

35:26where do you even find that? Where do

35:27you discover that? Because if no one's

35:29ever validated you if you've never

35:31experienced it, where does it appear

35:34from?

35:34>> Okay, so really beautiful question. So

35:36this is the analogy I give to people all

35:38the time for this. It's not the

35:40prettiest analogy, but it's the cold

35:41hard truth. If you remember the first

35:44time I ever started to drive a car, I

35:46remember the first time I tried to drive

35:47a car. I was so excited to drive a car

35:49and then I got on the highway and I was

35:50like, "Oh my god, keep the wheel turn,

35:53you know, keep between the lines and

35:54look in your rearview mirror and your

35:55side mirrors and put your signal and oh,

35:57like I just felt like, oh my gosh, it's

35:58very mechanical to learn to drive a car

36:00and then you do it for a while and then

36:02you end up in a situation where you're,

36:04you know, a year later or in a pretty

36:06short time later, you know, 30 days

36:08later, you're listening to a podcast

36:09while you're driving or listening to

36:10your favorite radio station or putting

36:11on music or talking on the phone to your

36:13friend, whatever it might be." And it's

36:16because what we're actually doing is

36:18doing something that at first feels

36:19mechanical. We're giving to ourselves

36:20what we didn't get. And over time

36:22through repetition and emotion, it

36:24actually seeps into our subconscious

36:25mind. And that's when it feels normal

36:27and natural. So what we get people to do

36:29is we actually have a list of every

36:31major need um that people reported over

36:33collecting all this data. And then we

36:35have people we have like three or four,

36:36hey, you can do these three or four

36:37things that are usually the healthiest,

36:38most direct ways of getting those needs

36:40met. And then we get them to actively

36:42practice it across that 21 days. So, for

36:44example, self- validation is usually

36:45things like it can be as small as just

36:47writing out three of your wins each day

36:49and just taking the time to really pause

36:50and be like, hey, I did this today. I'm

36:52proud of these things today, big or

36:53small. It can be like, I made it to work

36:55early. It can be anything, but just

36:56having that ability to start training

36:58your subconscious mind to practice

37:00recognizing those things in your life.

37:01And of course there's a slightly

37:02different one for for each need, but

37:04when people start giving those needs to

37:06themselves, this sounds very cliche, but

37:08I really believe that if we had

37:10attachment wounds growing up, healing

37:12really happens when we become our own

37:14parents. And instead of trying to

37:16externalize, our parents would have done

37:17it for us or perfectly like our parents

37:19are human beings too. And so when we

37:21give to ourselves what we felt like we

37:23couldn't access through them and we do

37:24it through that repetition, that's that

37:26second big pillar.

37:27>> Understood. Got it. Very clear. Yeah.

37:28You know, I'm glad that you clarified

37:30that piece about validation and and I

37:32assume what I'm hearing from you is it

37:34is practice. It is going to feel a bit

37:38awkward and uncomfortable, but there

37:40isn't another magic pill there or any

37:43piece of advice that solves it. It's

37:45like we're going to have to build that

37:47muscle

37:48>> over time of learning to validate

37:49ourselves which we just haven't

37:51developed.

37:51>> Exactly. Oh, and just the last thing you

37:53can look in the seven areas of life for

37:54for if some people are just really

37:55stuck. They sit at the sheet and they're

37:57like, "Okay, three wins. I have no idea.

37:59You can look through career, financial,

38:01mental, emotional, spiritual, physical

38:03relationships. You even break

38:05relationships down into friends, family,

38:06romantic. And sometimes that helps like

38:08those prompts can get the wheels

38:09turning. And it starts as something that

38:11you're sitting there doing, but it

38:13becomes something that usually by day

38:15seven or so, people are like, "Oh yeah,

38:17this is this, oh, three, like that took

38:19me 2 seconds. Oh, and and then what's

38:20really beautiful is we have this

38:21mechanism in our brain called the

38:22reticular activating system, and it's

38:24our filtering system of information.

38:26People always talk about this in the

38:27personal, oh, if you, you know, see a

38:29car and you're trying to buy a white

38:30Jeep, you're going to see a white Jeep

38:32everywhere. It is. It's your filtering

38:33system in that way. But it also filters

38:35information according to what we already

38:37believe. Um, and so, you know, if your

38:39core beliefs are working against you,

38:41then that that becomes problematic. But

38:43if you rewire them in pillar one, that

38:44helps a lot. Um, but also it according

38:47to the information you're really giving

38:48and taking in repeatedly, you start

38:50noticing more and more. It sort of opens

38:52up that filtering system to notice those

38:53things. So what's really beautiful is

38:55when people start doing that work, they

38:57often end up in a situation where

38:58they're going, "Oh yeah, I did have this

39:00win. Oh, and they notice it in real time

39:02throughout the day and they feel it."

39:03And so it really gives that ability to

39:05start noticing that in a more natural

39:07way across time.

39:08>> Absolutely. And step three,

39:10>> so a third pillar is nervous system

39:12work. So we always hear things like

39:15people are in sympathetic mode, you

39:17know, fight, flight, freeze or fawn mode

39:19or parasympathetic mode. It's actually

39:21particularly relevant to attachment

39:22styles because all three insecure

39:24attachment styles spend far too much

39:26time in fight or flight.

39:28>> Interesting.

39:29>> Yes. And it's because if you grow up in

39:31an environment where you don't feel

39:32fully safe because your needs are not

39:34met consistently enough and if you have

39:36more bears in the woods, aka core wounds

39:38or triggers, then you spend more time on

39:40high alert in various ways. So anxious

39:41attachment cells are very on alert about

39:43when people are going to abandon them.

39:44Dismissive avoidance are very much on

39:45high alert, but are they going to feel

39:46rejected and seem like they're defective

39:48or shamed? and they do they need to

39:50create space and not take you know not

39:52be a burden to anybody and fearful

39:54[snorts] avoidance are are hyper

39:55vigilance it's about everything about

39:57all of the above and so um you know what

39:59ends up happening is your nervous system

40:00is in overdrive and a big part of

40:03healing is learning to get back into

40:04your body I've actually found deeply

40:07that each of the three insecure

40:08attachment cells struggles at the

40:09beginning to identify their emotions in

40:11real time which is a form of

40:12dissociation like people often think of

40:14dissociation as being this really

40:16traumatic catatonic thing but it's not

40:18people can spend a lot of time and mild

40:20dissociation. So, we do a couple of

40:22things. We we take people through a

40:24process of retraining their nervous

40:25system to do things like um completion

40:27cycle work and and a lot of that sort of

40:29polyagal theory work to to actually

40:31practice getting into parasympathetic

40:33nervous system over time so it becomes

40:35your new baseline. Um but we also one of

40:38my favorite practices and I was saying

40:40this to you before we recorded is when I

40:43started really diving deep into a lot of

40:44this work. did um 13 different

40:46certifications and everything from like

40:48CB to cognitive behavioral therapy to

40:50neural linguistic programming and

40:51hypnosis and just all this stuff. But I

40:53was actually like really rooted in a lot

40:55of studying all different um religions.

40:57Like I was really obsessed with

40:58spirituality and on sort of a spiritual

41:00journey. And I've always loved where

41:02those two things intersect. And I

41:04remember actually reading years ago one

41:06of Echarolei's books and it was all

41:08about the pain body. And at the time I

41:11was reading these case studies on um

41:12these individuals and they go into the

41:15the researchers were taking individuals

41:16and putting them in fMRI scanners and

41:19they were getting them in these fMRI

41:20scanners to um recall triggering

41:23experiences where they felt upset and

41:26then they were watching their brain

41:28activity. And what they found is that

41:30participants brain activity when they

41:32would feel triggered would drain out of

41:34the neoortex regions like the prefrontal

41:36cortex region of the brain and into the

41:38reptilian brain. and all this activity

41:40would come there and we've all seen

41:41people when they're triggered they

41:42become kind of the like reptilian

41:44animalistic version of themselves and so

41:46all of a sudden people would be sitting

41:48there [snorts] in this sort of panicked

41:50state and what they would find is that

41:54people would start being disregulated

41:55like they would be in sympathetic

41:56nervous system fight or flight. They

41:58would see their heart rate increase

41:59their their um you know hair on the back

42:01of their neck often stand up. And then

42:03what they had participants do is they

42:06had them um practice just witnessing

42:09their emotions in their body and

42:12labeling the sensations which is a form

42:13of sematic processing. And they had them

42:16say okay you know in this experience

42:17instead of being so stuck in the story

42:19in their mind they had them go oh I feel

42:22you know anger and anger feels like heat

42:24across my chest and down my arms or I

42:26feel anxiety and that feels like

42:28butterflies in my stomach and a ball in

42:30my throat and a clenching in my jaw. And

42:32when they actually had people go through

42:34this, they found that all this brain

42:36activity came back online in the the

42:38neoortex regions of the brain. And it

42:40was so interesting cuz Zachar totally

42:41has this thing, oh the pain body,

42:42witness your emotion or you know being

42:44witnessing consciousness consciousness.

42:46And it's so beautiful to see people

42:48practice that because in real time when

42:50they are triggered before they're doing

42:52a lot of wound rewiring and meeting

42:54their needs, a really powerful practice

42:56is to do that form of sematic processing

42:58work which is yes do things to train

43:00your nervous system through breath work

43:01or meditation daily. All of those things

43:03are amazing. But in those moments

43:04throughout the day where you feel those

43:06emotions arise, practicing witnessing

43:08the sensations, being with the

43:10sensations, noticing what those

43:11sensations feel like in your body, it

43:13actually takes the emotional charge down

43:14quite strongly. And it gives people the

43:16opportunity to feel reeregulated and

43:18back to more of their conscious mind

43:20self again. And so, you know, we get

43:22people to practice that on a regular

43:23basis and it's powerful for emotional

43:25regulation. But my favorite part of it

43:27is that it gives you the gift of self

43:30attunement

43:31>> because rather than being in a position

43:33where we feel emotion, let's like hide

43:35it through scrolling on social media or

43:37turning on the TV or drinking a beer or

43:39whatever it might be, it's actually the

43:41practice of learning in hard moments to

43:44come back and return to being fully

43:46present within oneself.

43:47>> Yes, absolutely. I mean, just listening

43:49to you say that, it's almost like we're

43:51getting to a place not only of

43:54self-security or self soothing, it's

43:56self-regulation.

43:58And we're gaining the ability to not

43:59expect our partner to regulate our

44:01emotions, regulate our nervous system,

44:03which is contagious. And we are going

44:05to, you know, blend and bond in energy.

44:08But I feel so many of us, our nervous

44:10system is completely dependent on

44:12everyone else around us. And therefore,

44:14we can feel really good when we're with

44:16someone, feel really bad when we're with

44:17someone else, and we have no control

44:19anymore. So, Ta, tell us about pillar

44:21four.

44:22>> So, pillar four, so you actually said

44:24this a moment ago, and I thought this

44:25was, you were like on the money. You

44:27knew it was coming. So, you mentioned um

44:29regulation. So, people regulating

44:30through other people. And what I

44:33actually found over and over again for

44:35people is that people can't co-regulate

44:37very effectively in relationships if

44:38they have no ability to self

44:39self-regulate on their own. because it

44:41goes back to that kind of concept where

44:42they over pressure the person to kind of

44:44do it for them. And that may work in

44:46specific cases for periods of time like

44:48oh you have a friend there and they

44:49really help you and they make you feel

44:50better. But like let's take an anxious

44:52attachment. somebody who's very

44:53anxiously attached, for example, they

44:55would usually end up in these themes or

44:56patterns over time where they would

44:58always be relying on their friends to do

45:00that. And then eventually their friends

45:01say, "Well, they always come to me for

45:03stuff, but then they don't change their

45:04patterns or behaviors. And then the

45:06friend starts kind of drifting back or

45:07pulling away or not being as present."

45:10And then the anxious person gets

45:11frustrated or stressed and then the the

45:13other friend is becoming more resentful

45:15and it just what may work in the short

45:17term isn't really working in the long

45:19term unless we learn to to

45:21self-regulate. So in those five pillars,

45:24the first three are all about self.

45:25They're all about how do I heal my own

45:27internal conditioning, rewire the

45:29wounds, meet my own needs, regulate my

45:30own nervous system. The next two are

45:32actually about regulating with so with

45:34people together. So the next two pillars

45:36are about communication and boundaries.

45:39So what we do for the communication

45:40pillar number four is now that we know

45:42our needs, we can go communicate about

45:44them. And what often happens is people

45:46go through life

45:47>> and they they don't even know what they

45:48need in a relationship

45:50>> and then we're left saying things like,

45:51"Oh, you hurt me and you did this." And

45:53I've seen this all the time with

45:54communication.

45:56>> Even if people are so well-meaning when

45:57they say, "Hey, even if they're trying

45:58to be vulnerable and they're saying,

45:59"Hey, you hurt me last week when XYZ

46:02[snorts] happened." The other partner is

46:04like, "Okay, I don't want to hurt you,

46:06but I don't know how to solve for it."

46:08>> Yes.

46:08>> And unless we're actually empowered to

46:10know what we need, then we can't say

46:12those things properly. So the

46:14communication pillar is about us taking

46:16our learning and understanding of self

46:17now we know our triggers we know our

46:20needs now we are equipped to do the work

46:21with other people and so what I get

46:23people to do and it depends like we have

46:25a couple of frameworks but one is

46:27whenever we are in a conflict like if

46:28that's ever coming up for us people feel

46:31very resolved in conflict when they do

46:32basically three things both parties have

46:35to communicate what came up for them in

46:37the conflict and then validate each

46:39other's emotions step one okay so

46:40validate each other's emotions step two

46:42then we have to say what we need. And

46:44step three, we have to paint a picture

46:46of what that looks like.

46:47>> Because I ran far too many times into

46:49situations with couples who I remember

46:51working with with a couple once years

46:52ago and and it was a husband and wife

46:54and they they uh had this conversation.

46:56The wife said, "I I need to feel more

46:57supported in this relationship." And I

46:59was like a year into working with with

47:02couples and they seem to have a really

47:04constructive conversation about it. and

47:06they left and they came back the next

47:08week and literally before they sat on

47:10the couch like they didn't even finish

47:11sitting down and and the wife said, "My

47:13husband didn't even support me this

47:15week. We talked about it and he didn't

47:16even try." And the husband like looked

47:18shocked and he was like, "What do you

47:20mean? I took out the trash. I did the

47:22dishes. I tried to help out around the

47:23house." And she was like, "Oh, but

47:25support for me is somebody actually like

47:28giving me encouragement and words of

47:30affirmation and telling me like they

47:31love me, they appreciate me, noticing my

47:33hard work. That's support." And so we

47:35have to paint the picture of what the

47:36need looks like. So, so it's clear. So,

47:38for example, let's say two people are in

47:39a conflict and let's say it's an anxious

47:42and a dismissive avoidant and the

47:43anxious person saying, "Hey, like you're

47:45not calling me enough." Often what

47:48happens when people try to communicate

47:49is they do what we call negative

47:51branding. So, you know, and I always say

47:52to people behind every criticism is just

47:54a need.

47:55>> And we say, "You don't care about me.

47:57You didn't call me enough. You didn't

47:58make an effort." And all that people

48:01hear when that happens is that you're

48:02criticizing them. Yeah.

48:05>> Because as a child when you were

48:06criticized what happened, you then got

48:08punished. So now you're bracing for

48:09punishment, not trying to figure out and

48:10decipher what somebody's needs are.

48:12>> So we would get to free frame, you know,

48:16behind that actual experience. What is

48:18the need? Convert your criticism into a

48:20need. And it's like, okay, well, if you

48:21said you didn't call me enough,

48:22obviously the need is for more

48:23consistency in in calling or

48:25communication. Good. Paint the picture.

48:27What does that actually look like? Oh,

48:28that looks like a call every evening for

48:3015 minutes before bed or once a week.

48:32Whatever it is, we got to get really

48:34specific cuz otherwise it gets lost in

48:35translation like 90% of the time. So

48:37what we do is we get people to say,

48:39"Hey, this is what came up for me." So

48:40for example, "Hey, I felt a little bit

48:42hurt this week because I didn't hear

48:44from you as much as I hoped to. And can

48:47we do a call every evening before bed

48:48for 15 minutes?" And when they're able

48:50to say that, now we actually have

48:52constructive communication. And then we

48:54flip it back around because if there was

48:55a conflict, usually there's two sides.

48:57And then maybe the person on the other

48:59side, if it originally wasn't done well,

49:00they say, "Oh, like if somebody was a

49:02little bit critical, they might say,

49:03"Okay, I hear your [snorts] need. I can

49:04see why you felt like that." So they

49:06validate the person's feelings. And then

49:07they turn around and they get to say,

49:09"Okay, and you know, for me, I'm a

49:11little sensitive. If communication is

49:12harsh or a little critical, and not that

49:14that example was harsh, but oftentimes

49:16that's how it starts." And so they might

49:17say, you know, can you just be a little

49:19bit more mindful with your delivery in

49:20next time? And then I'll be more mindful

49:22in terms of communicating and calling

49:23more consistently. I think we can make

49:25that work. And that's how we really

49:26resolve. So each person expresses their

49:28feeling and gets it validated, shares

49:30their need, paints a picture for what it

49:32looks like. And it's something you can

49:33actually train yourself to do naturally.

49:36And we get people to get into the the

49:38mindset of going feeling need, feeling

49:39need, like just know your feelings and

49:41needs. And if it's top of mind, and if

49:42each person feels like they're able to

49:44communicate it that way, that's where we

49:45get real resolution. And then that's

49:46where we get actual breakthroughs. And I

49:48truly believe that doing the work

49:50together in a relationship to become

49:52secure, you have to become good at

49:54having those conversations. I feel like

49:56a lot of people struggle to do that for

49:59two reasons. One is when they're saying

50:01their need, their need is based on their

50:04attachment style. And if it's one of the

50:07anxious attachment styles, often their

50:09need can feel like a burden to the other

50:12person because it's such a intense

50:14demand where the other person just goes.

50:17And so we're so a lot of people know

50:19that their need is intense. Therefore,

50:21they won't verbalize it because they

50:24actually think it will push the other

50:25person away. So, if they don't say it,

50:28it bruise up and then one day it pops up

50:30and you break up anyway or they say it,

50:34it's a burden to the other person and

50:35the other person goes, "Well, I can't do

50:37that." And then they walk away. So, how

50:40do we know our need is valid or is

50:44realistic?

50:45And how do we know if the if our partner

50:48is even should be capable of doing that

50:50need? Because I think a lot of people

50:52will be like, well, my need is every day

50:55I need someone to tell me I'm beautiful

50:56and amazing or every day I need, you

50:59know, it's like, well, maybe someone

51:01else doesn't have the capacity to do

51:02that. Okay, so I love this question and

51:04this is why we do 90-day frameworks for

51:06people and the first 30 days are

51:08rewiring your core wounds first

51:10>> because then you don't have these things

51:11that are causing a lot of that negative

51:12internal dialogue that will then

51:13overpressure you to source from somebody

51:15else. So if if somebody feels not good

51:17enough, they're going to be like, "You

51:18better tell me I'm good enough all day,

51:19every day." But if we learn to do the

51:21rewiring first is pillar number one. And

51:23then pillar number two is that we learn

51:24to selfsource because now we're filling

51:26our cup halfway. And what's really

51:27powerful as soon as we start

51:29self-sourcing, we we ingrain that in

51:30that first 30 days. Well, now all of a

51:32sudden there's not this crazy amount of

51:34pressure and now it's really clear to

51:36say this is what I need.

51:37>> So by the time you get to this stage,

51:39your request is actually already more

51:41reasonable and thoughtful.

51:43>> But the problem is if you jump to this

51:44stage too quick,

51:46>> you could end up asking for something

51:48you should be self-sourcing for.

51:49>> Exactly. And that's that makes a lot of

51:51sense.

51:51>> Yeah. And that's where it's really

51:53important. And I love that you asked

51:54that because what ends up happening far

51:56too often and and this is a really crazy

51:57part of this is because our subconscious

52:00mind wants to maintain its comfort zone

52:01because it equates familiarity to safety

52:03and survival. So frequently people think

52:06that they want somebody to to give them

52:08their need and that's the solution. And

52:10let's take like typical example. Let's

52:11say somebody has they're anxiously

52:12attached. They believe they're not good

52:14enough. So now just by that they they

52:15have more negative internal dialogue.

52:17they're criticizing themselves, sort of

52:18magnifying their mistakes, minimizing

52:20their their wins in their own natural

52:22set point of their conditioning. Then

52:24they are often not meeting their own

52:26need to feel, you know, good enough or

52:27validated or reassured. So [snorts] now

52:29they have what we what I call like a

52:31hole in your bucket. Like you're going

52:32to go and because the subconscious mind

52:35will only receive well what's familiar

52:37because it equates it to safety. Then

52:40you go and you say, "Oh, hey, tell me

52:41I'm good enough. Tell me all these

52:42things." But then it's like there's a

52:44hole in the bucket. feels really good

52:45when that that water is going into the

52:46bucket. You get that initial hit of

52:48dopamine. Oh my god, my partner said I'm

52:49good enough and then it just leaked

52:51right out. And then that's why you see

52:53anxious attachment cells needing so much

52:55of that because they first struggle with

52:57those two pillars so profoundly. And

52:59that's where we get, you know, confused

53:00in relationships because we're like you

53:02you need to do this, you need to do

53:03that. And then when it becomes

53:05unreasonable because it's coming from

53:06lack and imbalance first, then it puts

53:08too much pressure on relationships and

53:09becomes problematic.

53:10>> That that completely makes sense now.

53:12And and I and I'm thinking about a lot

53:14of people that I know who sadly feel a

53:17lot of shame and guilt for their needs

53:19from their attachment style, but without

53:22doing this work in this order as the

53:24pillars are being developed, you'll

53:27never actually request something in a

53:29healthy way that naturally

53:33will because it's coming from an anxious

53:36attachment style.

53:37>> Yeah, 100%.

53:38>> Ta, please tell us about pillar five.

53:40Okay. So the last pillar is learning

53:42healthy boundaries. [snorts] So healthy

53:44boundaries when people hear them I think

53:46some people think especially more

53:47anxious attachment styles think that

53:49boundaries mean a separation but truly

53:52every boundary is a joining because a

53:54boundary is an authentic expression of

53:56your true yeses and your nos which is an

53:58authentic expression of you as a whole

53:59human being. And so you know when we

54:01look at boundaries per attachment style

54:03there's unique patterns. This is when I

54:04was like whoa each attachment [laughter]

54:06style they each have these themes of

54:07boundaries. Anxious attachment cells are

54:09kind of boundaryless. Like if they're

54:10really anxiously attached, they struggle

54:12with boundaries altogether. And so

54:14they're going to end up people pleasing

54:15into oblivion. They get scared to set

54:17boundaries because they believe that

54:18boundaries are going to get them

54:19abandoned or disliked or rejected. Part

54:21of also why we do the core wound work

54:23first in that order. Um and so they end

54:25up just struggling with boundaries at

54:27all. [snorts]

54:27>> Dismiss of avoidance, they set too

54:29strong of boundaries. They are scared to

54:31make compromises because they equate

54:32that to vulnerability. And so they end

54:34up keeping distance and saying, you

54:35know, they're the types that instead of

54:36saying, "Hey, I've had a long week. It's

54:38Friday. I'm tired." Instead of going

54:40out, can we just stay in and watch a

54:41movie? Instead of setting small

54:42boundaries and requesting those needs

54:44within that framework, they'll instead

54:46go, "Cancelling, not coming over. Sorry,

54:48not going to be there." And it's because

54:50they have these huge boundaries cuz they

54:51don't know how to co-regulate and

54:53communicate in that way. And so then we

54:55have fearful avoidance. And fearful

54:56women are very interesting with their

54:57boundaries. I I call it the the fearful

54:59avoidant boundary cycle where they are

55:02boundaryless at first cuz they start to

55:03people please usually then they get

55:05frustrated because they're very

55:07generous. They tend to overgive and kind

55:08of underreceive. So they they set, you

55:11know, no boundaries. They're super

55:12generous and then they're, you know,

55:13they eventually are like, "Oh, I feel

55:15taken advantage of." And then they get

55:16really triggered cuz they've got a lot

55:17of big core wounds. And then they get

55:18angry and they set boundaries from anger

55:20or frustration. And they say things

55:21harshly or critically. And sometimes

55:23they're a little bit, you know, too

55:24harsh or critical. and then they feel

55:26terribly guilty about it and they go

55:27back to having no boundaries. So they're

55:29like no boundaries, get frustrated,

55:31express anger, feel guilty, go back to

55:33no boundaries and they kind of just go

55:34around in a loop. Um, and so what we get

55:36people to do is first, and it actually

55:39has to be done in order. And and I'll

55:41speak from personal examples, but this

55:42is what I would see replicated out with

55:44like thousands of people. When I was

55:45first doing boundary work, I knew I had

55:48to do boundary work. I was like, I

55:49really struggle with boundaries. So, I

55:50read all these boundary books and I I

55:53learned about boundaries and I read, you

55:54know, publications on boundaries and all

55:56these things. And yet, I would get into

55:59situations and I would be sitting in a

56:01situation being like, I know this is

56:03where I should set the boundary, but I

56:04would clam up and I wouldn't do it

56:06>> because I didn't realize that I still

56:09had core wounds around my boundaries.

56:12So, consciously, I'm like, set a

56:13boundary. And too many people

56:14intellectualize boundaries as this

56:16concept, but you're not actually going

56:18to do it in real time until you first re

56:20because if your conscious mind says set

56:21the boundary, your subconscious mind

56:22says, "No, I'm going to be unsafe." And

56:24as a child, I had some kind of

56:25heavy-handed punishments at times for

56:27setting a boundary or saying no. So my

56:29my subconscious mind said boundaries

56:31equals unsafety rather than safety. And

56:33a healthy dynamic, that's what your your

56:34brain would think. And so then I would

56:36in real time clam up, not say it, and

56:38then be like walk away going, "Why

56:39didn't I set the boundary?" So what we

56:41get people to do is step one know your

56:43boundaries. We get people to audit their

56:44boundaries in the seven areas of life.

56:46Go through career, where are you lacking

56:47boundaries, financial area of life, etc.

56:49through the seven areas. Then we get

56:51people to say, okay, if I set a

56:52boundary, what am I afraid will happen

56:54or what do I make it mean? It's a good

56:56way to surface some of your subconscious

56:57stuff that may be there. Oh, if I set a

56:58boundary, then I'm going to be

56:59abandoned. If I set a boundary, people

57:01are going to reject me or think that I'm

57:02a burden. You know, you can really see

57:04what comes up. And then we get people to

57:06rewire using some rewiring techniques

57:08that fear of setting boundaries and then

57:10practice doing exposure work which means

57:12you don't go set your your first

57:13boundary with your boss who you think

57:14has narcissistic personality disorder

57:16cuz your brain's not going to take that

57:18very well. We set boundaries with, you

57:20know, small boundaries with trusted

57:22people like ask your coworker you love,

57:23hey, can you bring back my stapler when

57:25you borrow it? Like the small things

57:26first. So your brain, we try to set one

57:28boundary a day. So your brain gets the

57:30repetition and emotion. I've seen that

57:32incrementalism work and you've rewired

57:34the core fear that was stopping you from

57:36setting boundaries in real time. And

57:37what I found in my own life and what

57:38I've seen with thousands of people is

57:40that unless you're actually doing

57:42boundary work at the subconscious level,

57:43you can know it, you can intellectualize

57:45it, but it's not actually going to

57:46change things. That makes so much sense.

57:48Is in your program because you have so

57:51many daily tasks.

57:53>> Yeah.

57:54>> How how are people interacting with you,

57:56your team or or with these tasks on a

57:59daily basis? How does it work?

58:00>> Yeah. So, what we do is we get people

58:01they go through 90 days. They do like

58:03one pillar at a time and we get them to

58:05start with a reprogramming pillar. Um we

58:07actually have, you know, people come in,

58:09they take their actual program. It's a

58:11course for each pillar. So, they can go

58:13through take the course and then we have

58:15two events per day. So I'm in there 3

58:17days a week with our students. We have

58:19colleagues in there so that they

58:20actually have two events every day just

58:22at different time zones, things like

58:23that. So people can get in there. We

58:25have um events that help people actually

58:27practice the tools and model out

58:28especially for communication or boundary

58:30setting. Like they actually get to

58:31practice it, they get feedback, it's

58:33relayed back to them and then we teach

58:35classes about the tools in more depth.

58:36You ask questions in the chat. Then we

58:38have live questions at the end so people

58:40can really get in there and like form

58:42those skills across time as they go

58:44through each of those pillars. Yeah,

58:45it's a real commitment. People are

58:47People are really doing the work.

58:49>> Absolutely. And we set it up so that

58:52it's really only like 2 to 3 minutes a

58:53day that people need. They don't have to

58:55come into those events to get the

58:56results, but they have the support there

58:58if they need it. And what's really

58:59beautiful, too, is that people end up

59:01making all these friends and they're

59:02like, people make friends from all sort

59:03of parts of the world, and they can stay

59:04after the events and chat with each

59:06other in the breakout rooms, but we set

59:07it up so that we try to keep it as

59:09simple as possible. Here's your course.

59:11The course is only like 2 hours long or

59:13so. They can go, they can take the

59:15course, get the follow-up support, but

59:16the course will have, hey, here's your

59:18daily exercise for the next 21 days,

59:20then you finish that one. Okay, here's

59:22your next daily pillar for 21 days. And

59:24it takes, you know, they're very small

59:25exercises.

59:26>> That's brilliant. It's so well

59:27structured. It

59:28>> just just hearing about it makes it feel

59:30so It feels like such a seamless process

59:33because you're getting to exclusively

59:34focus on one thing at a time as opposed

59:36to like a million habits that we're all

59:38trying to develop.

59:39>> Exactly.

59:40>> Ta, we wanted to ask you about real life

59:42scenarios. Okay.

59:44>> Because we feel that, you know, when you

59:46look at all of these attachment styles,

59:47really the way we experience them is in

59:51a relationship or when we start dating.

59:53So, here are some real life scenarios.

59:56One partner is anxious and the other is

59:58avoidant. The anxious partner clings,

1:00:01the avoidant pulls away. How do they

1:00:03break that cycle instead of repeating

1:00:05it?

1:00:06>> Okay, so really good question. So, first

1:00:08thing is we do do that work. like the

1:00:10actual way is not going to be to will

1:00:12yourself through it which unfortunately

1:00:13sadly so many people are like oh we're

1:00:15just going to try to you know self

1:00:16silence and not say what we need and

1:00:18then it comes out in a negative way.

1:00:19First thing is you do the rewiring work.

1:00:21Then we actually start to

1:00:22>> What if they don't want to do that work

1:00:23though?

1:00:24>> Okay, great question. So here's what we

1:00:26do in that case. So this is actually I

1:00:27would see this sometimes when working

1:00:28with couples um where somebody's like

1:00:30I'm not going to be doing the self work,

1:00:32we're not really going to be moving from

1:00:33that perspective. Well, people tend to

1:00:35think that because people have different

1:00:37needs that different needs mean mutually

1:00:39exclusive needs. Okay, which is not the

1:00:42case. So people think like typical

1:00:44scenario anxious attachment style in

1:00:46exactly that scenario you said what do

1:00:47they want? They what's their need? more

1:00:48time together. What's a dismissive

1:00:50avoidance needed? More space, more

1:00:52freedom, more autonomy. So, what we do

1:00:53in that case is just because somebody

1:00:55wants more time when somebody wants more

1:00:56space doesn't mean that that can't work.

1:01:00What we get people to do is talk it out

1:01:01from that feeling need framework enough

1:01:03where you have pockets of time to meet

1:01:05both each other's needs. So, you'll

1:01:07probably see this, but whenever we we

1:01:10have a a trigger, we always think of the

1:01:11worst case scenario, right? We jump to

1:01:13the worst case conclusion. So,

1:01:14dismissive avoidance, when somebody's

1:01:15like, "Well, I want more time." They're

1:01:17like, "You're going to take over my

1:01:19life." Like they think you, "Oh, you

1:01:20want like seven hours every evening

1:01:22together?" Like,

1:01:22>> or or they're thinking, "Well, I just

1:01:24gave you time this weekend. Like, we

1:01:25were just hanging out. Like, that how

1:01:28much more can I give you?"

1:01:29>> Exactly. And then when dismissive say,

1:01:31"I need more space or time to myself."

1:01:33Anxious attachment are like, "You're

1:01:34leaving me. You're abandoning me."

1:01:35>> Yeah. And it's because of me. It's like,

1:01:36you want to get away from me.

1:01:38>> 100%. And instead, it's because they

1:01:40they struggle to co-regulate. So, what

1:01:42we get people to do is the feeling need

1:01:43framework. They each say what they feel.

1:01:45Hey, this will comes up for me. Then

1:01:47it's a beautiful opportunity to say, I

1:01:48need space because that's how I

1:01:50recharge. I need time because that's

1:01:52when I feel connected. So now they

1:01:54actually understand what's going on. And

1:01:55then okay, what do we need? Paint the

1:01:57picture. And when people paint the

1:01:59picture, they realize it's actually very

1:02:01reasonable from both ends. Usually an

1:02:03anxious attachment style will say, okay,

1:02:04you know, what can I actually do as a

1:02:06baseline in terms of how much time I

1:02:08need together? I think two nights a week

1:02:10would be, you know, acceptable for me.

1:02:11And then maybe a 15-minute phone call a

1:02:13couple other nights a week. I could do

1:02:14that. And if I know that we're going to

1:02:16do that and commit to that, I can feel

1:02:18good about that. And then dismissive

1:02:19avoidance. They're not going, "Oh, you

1:02:21want to spend every night with me all

1:02:22day, every day, you know, you want to

1:02:23take up my whole life." They're like,

1:02:24"Oh, two evenings a week and then I can

1:02:26do my own thing on Sunday afternoon. I

1:02:28can do my own thing on Monday, Tuesday

1:02:29evenings, and I have, you know, all this

1:02:31other time to see friends, whatever it

1:02:32might be." Okay, that's actually

1:02:34feasible. So what I find is even if

1:02:35people don't want to do the work, if

1:02:36they can communicate very clearly and

1:02:39specifically use that ingredient of

1:02:40painting a picture for what that looks

1:02:42like, we resolve a lot of those

1:02:44projected fears that cause those

1:02:46miscommunications to begin with and now

1:02:48things can really work together.

1:02:49>> Do you think it's possible to be in a

1:02:52relationship with someone who's not

1:02:54willing to have these conversations?

1:02:55>> It's a great question. I'll be really

1:02:58honest. Um what I believe is that you

1:03:01know and I'll see this a lot. One person

1:03:03can lead the way. Okay. So so I see a

1:03:06lot of time one person starts doing the

1:03:07work they learn to communicate. They

1:03:08become really good at it and the other

1:03:10person like once they see their partner

1:03:12communicating so healthily and they're

1:03:13regulated and they're not so triggered

1:03:15from their wounds and they're so clear

1:03:17about their needs. The vast majority of

1:03:18time it gives the other person

1:03:20permission to do the same and they

1:03:21follow their lead. But I will say in in

1:03:23roughly 10% of cases somebody's in a

1:03:25position where they're like I'm not

1:03:26doing any of this stuff. I don't want to

1:03:28communicate. I don't want to have these

1:03:30conversations about your your needs. I'm

1:03:32I'm sorry. I'm I'm not going to do that

1:03:33at all. It's usually from their own

1:03:34woundedness that their unwillingness is

1:03:36there. But I say to people like, "Hey,

1:03:38if that's the case, I tell people set a

1:03:40deadline. Try your living heart out. Do

1:03:43everything you can in this deadline." So

1:03:45deadline might be 90 days. It might be 6

1:03:47months. If you're in a longer term

1:03:48relationship or if you're in a marriage

1:03:49with children, it might be a year or a

1:03:51year and a half. do everything you can

1:03:53as that one person in that period of

1:03:55time to show up the best that you can,

1:03:57you know, without your wounds, know your

1:03:59needs, regulate your nervous system,

1:04:00communicate beautifully, set healthy

1:04:02boundaries. If it doesn't work and the

1:04:04person's literally unwilling at the end

1:04:06of that period of time, your only choice

1:04:08if you want to be in a healthy

1:04:09relationship is probably to walk away.

1:04:11And that's because you're going to if

1:04:12you're not happy in that situation, you

1:04:14cannot have one person doing the

1:04:16emotional labor for for both people. And

1:04:19then usually what happens is you're

1:04:20positioned for a win-win because you

1:04:22have healed so much and you're going to

1:04:23be in a place where you feel stable and

1:04:25emotionally well enough to walk away

1:04:26from something that may actually not be

1:04:28a fit for you and and so you're okay and

1:04:31you also know I can walk away guilt and

1:04:33regret free. I tried everything or your

1:04:35best case scenario is 90% of the time

1:04:37the other person jumps on board and the

1:04:38relationship evolves because you led the

1:04:40way.

1:04:40>> Yeah. How how does attachment theory

1:04:42explain love bombing?

1:04:44>> Great question. So lovebombing I think

1:04:47of as is existing along a continuum.

1:04:50Love bombing in extreme cases is usually

1:04:52because of narcissistic personality

1:04:53disorder. And that's somebody love

1:04:55bombing with the premeditated intention

1:04:58to win you over as a means of control.

1:05:00Um, but what actually happens if we look

1:05:03way further down the continuum, love

1:05:05bombing can be more from a a place

1:05:07usually we're going to see anxious or

1:05:08fearful avoidance do love bombing and

1:05:09it's because a much lesser degree and

1:05:12their relationship to it is not because

1:05:14let me win you over so that then you're

1:05:16addicted to me and I can control you.

1:05:17It's from a place of that they usually

1:05:19because of having so many core wounds

1:05:21and people pleasing behaviors as their

1:05:23adaptation to those core wounds. They

1:05:25have people on a pedestal and so you're

1:05:27going to love bomb somebody that you

1:05:28admire and you look up to and you want

1:05:30to win over and people please and so

1:05:32that's often what will happen is you get

1:05:34a lot more of those compliments and

1:05:35trying to win somebody over and charm

1:05:37them and all those things because of

1:05:38their own insecurity compared to how

1:05:41high they see other people that they're

1:05:42in relationships with. If someone comes

1:05:44on quite strongly to you, sometimes it

1:05:47can be quite infatuating because you're

1:05:49like, "Wow, I finally found someone

1:05:51>> who likes me, who loves me, who But I've

1:05:54noticed as people are getting wiser and

1:05:56I'm sure as they do the work." They're

1:05:58like, "Well, that's a bit strong. It's

1:05:59too early." Like that that feels

1:06:01unnatural for you to have such intense

1:06:04feelings. We just met two weeks ago.

1:06:06What would you do in that scenario where

1:06:09you kind of see positives in this person

1:06:11but their feelings are too strong and

1:06:12you don't want to get lovebombed and but

1:06:14you still want to continue seeing them.

1:06:16How would you navigate that?

1:06:18>> That's a beautiful question. So, a

1:06:20couple of things. Um the first answer is

1:06:22that in that early stage you can have

1:06:24that conversation. You can say to

1:06:26somebody, "Hey, I really like you. I

1:06:27really like spending time with you. I'm

1:06:28super interested in you and getting to

1:06:30know you and I feel like we're moving a

1:06:32little bit quickly. Here's the pace I

1:06:33like to go at. I want to manage your

1:06:35expectations. And that forces somebody

1:06:36to kind of check in with themselves and

1:06:38be able to do that work. I also tell

1:06:40people all the time, if you're if you're

1:06:41concerned a little bit, you think

1:06:43somebody's amazing, they're very

1:06:44charming, they're very charismatic, and

1:06:46you're concerned a little bit that

1:06:47they're lovebombing and their charisma

1:06:50could be a sign of a narcissist instead

1:06:52of just an insecure attachment cell cuz

1:06:53they are vastly different, then one of

1:06:55the best ways to just vet them is to set

1:06:57a boundary with them. Because

1:06:58narcissists do not like your boundary,

1:07:00whereas insecure attachment cells,

1:07:01they'll like really honor your boundary.

1:07:03They'll usually be like, "Oh, I'm so

1:07:04sorry." And they're they'll be

1:07:05accountable and apologize and

1:07:06acknowledge. And so that's a really good

1:07:08way to separate out the two.

1:07:10>> Interest. That's a Yeah, because I find

1:07:11that that's what I feel so many of my

1:07:14friends struggling with where it's like

1:07:15they do set a boundary, the person won't

1:07:18respect the boundary and but there's

1:07:21still so many good things about them. Is

1:07:23that dangerous to keep? Do you have to

1:07:25tread carefully? How do you

1:07:26>> It's a great question. And from that

1:07:27particular scenario, if somebody's not

1:07:29respecting your boundary early on,

1:07:30that's a big red flag. You know, if

1:07:32somebody doesn't know how to honor

1:07:33boundaries, then I would say in those

1:07:35types of cases, that's a vetting

1:07:36situation. Like vetting in a

1:07:37relationship when we first start dating

1:07:39should be for the first 3 4 months of a

1:07:41relationship. You should be asking the

1:07:43hard questions, having those early

1:07:44conversations, talking about your needs.

1:07:46I always say to people when you're when

1:07:48you're going into dating, know your

1:07:50needs and know your non-negotiables. And

1:07:52then go in and ask one or two really

1:07:55meaningful questions a day. You don't

1:07:56want the dating situation to be like a

1:07:57job interview.

1:07:59>> Here's my 17 needs. Are you going to

1:08:00meet them? You know, it needs to be

1:08:01something where like each date you say,

1:08:03you know, for example, I know for me,

1:08:05you know, I've been in a marriage and

1:08:06and with my husband for 11 years and and

1:08:08um but if I were dating again, I would

1:08:10one of my non-negotiables early on would

1:08:12be you need to be able to hash things

1:08:14out like we got to talk through things

1:08:15because it's so important to prevent any

1:08:17kind of resentment in relationship. So,

1:08:19I might, you know, have the first date,

1:08:21see if there's a connection, chemistry,

1:08:22have fun, and then by the second date,

1:08:24that might be a question I bring up

1:08:26pretty early. Hey, like how do you

1:08:27handle conflict? And then that way I can

1:08:29see if they say, "Oh, I would never, you

1:08:31know, I don't like to talk about things.

1:08:32I I don't go there. I don't like

1:08:33conflict. I don't believe in like having

1:08:35conflict." I would be like, "Whoa, red

1:08:37flag." And so then we vet. And and what

1:08:39we want to do is if if we see those

1:08:41things and we're not sure, red flags, if

1:08:43you're interested in somebody otherwise,

1:08:45people think red flags you should bolt.

1:08:46No, red flags you should go towards and

1:08:48figure out because sometimes somebody

1:08:50might accidentally disrespect a boundary

1:08:52that you said, "Hey, I want to move

1:08:53slower." But sometimes that red flag is

1:08:56well you weren't clear enough at what

1:08:57slower means to you. You didn't paint

1:08:59the picture. So that should be a

1:09:01conversation you move towards to really

1:09:02get to the bottom of like kind of a

1:09:04detective like hey I I mentioned last

1:09:06week wanting to move slower. I feel like

1:09:07we still moved at a really quick pace

1:09:08this week. For me moving slower looks

1:09:11like seeing each other a little bit

1:09:13less, you know, spending a little more

1:09:15time getting to know each other before

1:09:17traveling together, whatever it might

1:09:18be. And then we really get to the bottom

1:09:20of it. And that's part of the vetting

1:09:21that should be taking place in that

1:09:22early stage. And then if we see red

1:09:24flags and we see, oh no, no, that's just

1:09:26a red flag. They're going to keep going

1:09:27without those boundaries. Now we know

1:09:28the answer and now we're really clear.

1:09:30>> Yeah, absolutely. All right, another p

1:09:32another scenario here. I love these with

1:09:34you. These are great. Uh, a secure

1:09:37partner feels steady, but their anxious

1:09:39partner keeps searching for signs

1:09:41something is wrong. How can they help

1:09:43without becoming the emotional

1:09:45regulator?

1:09:46>> Yeah, really good question. So, this

1:09:48happens fairly frequently. Um, but

1:09:50what's very interesting about this is

1:09:52that I have yet to see it be any kind of

1:09:56frequent occurrence that somebody who's

1:09:57deeply anxious and deeply secure stay in

1:10:01a long-term relationship together

1:10:03>> because their subconscious comfort zones

1:10:05are going to reject each other. Securely

1:10:07attached people, if there's too much

1:10:08emotional burden over time and that

1:10:10person's not self-regulating at all or

1:10:11the needle's not moving, they usually do

1:10:14eventually because they're really good

1:10:15at being mindful of their own

1:10:16boundaries. they will pull away from

1:10:18that person or move in a different

1:10:19direction. Attachment cells are always a

1:10:21continuum. If somebody's a little bit

1:10:22anxious, we'll see some movement there,

1:10:24right? But if somebody sometimes you

1:10:25hear things like, oh, just date a secure

1:10:26person, it doesn't usually work out that

1:10:28way. Just like, you know, people who are

1:10:29deeply insecure often are like, where's

1:10:31the spice? Where's the excitement is

1:10:33that this is the stability seems boring

1:10:34or they they can reject the secure

1:10:36person as well. So, you know, the the

1:10:38that really brings back to the work of

1:10:40like you got to do the work in in

1:10:41healing yourself first if you really

1:10:43want that to happen. But if that were to

1:10:45be the case where you have somebody

1:10:46who's a little less anxious and then

1:10:48somebody who's really secure, then

1:10:50you're going [snorts] to have the secure

1:10:51person say, "Hey, I need you to be able

1:10:54to make sure that you're self soothing

1:10:55sometimes." Or, "I need you." And in

1:10:56maybe less clinical terms, they might

1:10:58say something like, "Hey, you know, I'm

1:10:59going to be here for you and I'm going

1:11:01to do my best to be here for you. And

1:11:02there's going to be some times where I'm

1:11:04stuck late at work. I'm going through my

1:11:06own human things and I need you to see

1:11:07me, too. And I need you to practice

1:11:09being okay and on your own." And and so

1:11:11they'll set those boundaries. they'll

1:11:12communicate their needs and in doing

1:11:14that it actually provides this beautiful

1:11:16opportunity for somebody to be like oh

1:11:18maybe I should practice that maybe I

1:11:20should sort of train myself to do that

1:11:21and that's often where we can see those

1:11:22good outcomes.

1:11:23>> Yeah. I know it's it's interesting you

1:11:25say that because I couldn't agree more

1:11:28that one person is usually rises to be

1:11:31the fixer in the beginning because they

1:11:33feel valuable through it as well and

1:11:35then afterwards they start to feel less

1:11:37and less valuable because their fixing

1:11:39doesn't work and they feel like all of

1:11:42their efforts are in vain because

1:11:44naturally that person still needs to

1:11:46learn self-regulation and you end up

1:11:48pushing them right

1:11:49>> 100% and okay so there's so there is

1:11:51this um thing we we created that we that

1:11:53talk about sometimes and it's this the

1:11:54six stages of relationship. It's based

1:11:56off of off of some of Dr. Susan

1:11:58Johnson's work and there's the dating

1:12:00stage which is usually the first like

1:12:01you know 0 to 6 months you're dating or

1:12:03vetting then there's the honeymoon stage

1:12:05which usually lasts for another year to

1:12:06year and a half rose color glasses a

1:12:08long time.

1:12:09>> Yeah. And then we and then we enter into

1:12:10the power struggle stage and to your

1:12:12exact point and I kind of laugh at this

1:12:14with endearment. It's not fun when

1:12:16you're going through it. Then people

1:12:17after the power struggle there's the the

1:12:19um rhythm stage. You get into your

1:12:20rhythm, then you get into the commitment

1:12:22stage longterm and then the bliss stage.

1:12:23Like things are really good long term,

1:12:25highly likely to break up in that stage.

1:12:27But what's so interesting is that in the

1:12:29dating stage of relationships, usually

1:12:31we are very attracted to people who

1:12:33express our repressed traits. So the

1:12:35thing that will invest in longest term

1:12:37are people who mirror back to us how we

1:12:38treat ourselves. But one of the other

1:12:40things that does drive attraction early

1:12:41on psychologically um is somebody who

1:12:44expresses your repressed traits. Okay?

1:12:46So it's opposites attract. So, let's say

1:12:48for example that um you're somebody who

1:12:50struggles with boundaries. If you meet

1:12:52somebody really assertive, you're going

1:12:53to be like, "Wow." Like, "Ooh, let me

1:12:55get close to them." Or if you're

1:12:56>> That's not a bad thing.

1:12:57>> Not a bad thing. Or if you're somebody

1:12:59who's very um type A, organized, and

1:13:01tense, when somebody's really easygoing,

1:13:03you're going to be like, "Oh, wow. Like,

1:13:05look at them." And and so we're very

1:13:06drawn because the mind likes to attach.

1:13:09And when we attach to something, we have

1:13:10an alostatic or homeostatic impulse at

1:13:12the subconscious level. So, when we

1:13:14attach, we feel more whole through that

1:13:15person. But what's so crazy is over time

1:13:19we are still going to invest in the most

1:13:20people who mirror our subconscious

1:13:22comfort zone. So in the early stages

1:13:23we're often attracted and then in the

1:13:25power struggle stage it's the very thing

1:13:26that has one of the greatest likelihoods

1:13:28of driving the relationship apart and it

1:13:29looks like this. They were so assertive.

1:13:31I love that early on. And now in the

1:13:33power struggle stage you're like they

1:13:34never compromise [laughter]

1:13:37or or early on you're like oh my god I

1:13:39love that they go with the flow. They're

1:13:40so flexible and he's going and then

1:13:41you're like hello like we have plans get

1:13:43here on time. and you're really stressed

1:13:45and it happens like clockwork in every

1:13:47relationship and the what I believe to

1:13:50be both a psychological and even

1:13:51spiritual lesson is to integrate those

1:13:54traits collectively and so

1:13:56>> explain that to me.

1:13:56>> Yeah. So, for example, let's say let's

1:13:59pretend it's me and my husband and

1:14:00actually we were kind of like this. I

1:14:01met my husband. We still had a little

1:14:02boundary work to do and he was so good

1:14:05at setting boundaries. Just like so

1:14:07direct, so straight up, so to the point.

1:14:08And I remember really admiring it. And

1:14:10then sure enough, I knew you we got in

1:14:12the power struggle stage and it started

1:14:13started to I was like, "Hello." Like,

1:14:14and so I went to him and I said, "Hey."

1:14:16And I knew this already. I was equipped.

1:14:17Thank goodness. And I knew that like I

1:14:20was going to start feeling frustrated

1:14:21unless I took on some of the trait of

1:14:24assertiveness better. And if he took on

1:14:26some of my flexibility a little bit

1:14:28more.

1:14:28>> So I went to him. I had the

1:14:30conversation. said, "Hey, I need you to

1:14:32make compromise with me sometimes, and

1:14:33this is really important to me, and it's

1:14:35going to be important for you to be more

1:14:36flexible and more mindful of me at times

1:14:38as well." And I gave some examples and

1:14:40sort of painted a picture. And what was

1:14:42really beautiful about that is I knew I

1:14:44had to communicate my needs more

1:14:45consistently and say my boundaries and

1:14:46do it better in real time. And I did. It

1:14:48was profoundly healing for me and helped

1:14:50me in so many relationships going

1:14:51forward, especially in things like work.

1:14:53And for him, he became so much more

1:14:56flexible. And I saw it really strengthen

1:14:58his relationships with his friends, his

1:15:00family members. Like it was really

1:15:01beautiful to see him evolve in that way.

1:15:03And that's everybody. That's if you're

1:15:05the the type A person, you got to learn

1:15:06that easygoingness sometimes and

1:15:08surrender. If you're the easygoing

1:15:09person, having some discipline is really

1:15:11valuable. So I really believe that

1:15:13relationships are not just here for

1:15:15love. Although that's a beautiful thing,

1:15:17they're also here for growth. And a lot

1:15:18of it's that we're attracted to people

1:15:20that way because that's our subconscious

1:15:21mind calling us to take on some of those

1:15:23things internally. And that's how we

1:15:24become more whole together in that power

1:15:27struggle stage. And now instead of

1:15:28having these two different people that

1:15:30are attracted, we're now two whole

1:15:32people collectively. And that

1:15:33strengthens us individually and

1:15:35collectively long term.

1:15:36>> I couldn't agree more. I I if whenever

1:15:39people ask me and Radhi, it's our 10

1:15:40year wedding anniversary this year.

1:15:42>> Congratulations. And and when I think

1:15:43about what's worked, because there've

1:15:45been tough conversations, there's been

1:15:47growth, there's been both of us taking

1:15:49responsibility and accountability and

1:15:52I'm like the best thing that's happened

1:15:53is the best parts of us have rubbed off

1:15:56onto the other person and the worst

1:15:58parts haven't

1:16:00>> and that is the only thing I can come

1:16:02down to. It's like so me and Radi

1:16:05similarly Radi spontaneous I'm super

1:16:07hyperfocused and I've become more

1:16:10spontaneous and more casual in our

1:16:12relationship with our timing and things

1:16:13like that and she's become more

1:16:16organized in her work and focused and

1:16:18driven in her her profession and then

1:16:20Radi's super healthy and you know really

1:16:23healthconscious and exercise diet

1:16:25everything that's really rubbed off on

1:16:26me and so she's taught me that and I'm

1:16:28like that's what's worked and it's but

1:16:30you both got to have the humility

1:16:33to be able to learn from the other

1:16:34person and I think you have to have the

1:16:37humility to not want to teach the other

1:16:39person. So I don't think in what you

1:16:41said in the way you're talking about

1:16:42these conversations I never went up to

1:16:44Radi and said I think you need to be

1:16:45more organized and she never came up to

1:16:47me and goes I think you need to be more

1:16:49healthy like if it's almost like the

1:16:51humility to not teach and the humility

1:16:54to learn and that's fascinating because

1:16:56most of us think oh yeah I wish my

1:16:58partner was a bit more like me and I'm

1:16:59going to go tell them how they can be

1:17:00like me and it's like well no no it's

1:17:03you live the quality so well that it

1:17:06becomes attractive like I know Radi

1:17:09really values going to the gym, really

1:17:10values eating well. She sees how alert

1:17:12it makes her. And when you see that

1:17:14change in someone, you feel inspired

1:17:16that I want to do it, too. And so, it's

1:17:18so fascinating how Yeah. I'd say

1:17:21successful relationships are when the

1:17:25good things you both have rub off on

1:17:26each other and the bad things don't. And

1:17:28that simple principle allows you to have

1:17:32the humility to learn from your partner

1:17:34and not have the ego to want to teach

1:17:36them. and those two things seemed to

1:17:38make sense.

1:17:39>> I thought that was so beautiful the way

1:17:40you said that. That actually really

1:17:41touched my heart. You said the the best

1:17:43things rubbed off on one another, but

1:17:45the harder things didn't. And like I

1:17:46just think that's such a beautiful

1:17:47example of a truly healthy, harmonious

1:17:50relationship. And and that's that's that

1:17:52um for people who are like, "How do I

1:17:54have the humility? How do I

1:17:54communicate?" That's that feelings need

1:17:56framework. When you communicate, hey, I

1:17:58I need this. Hey, I need a little

1:18:00flexibility sometimes from you. Or hey,

1:18:02I need you to sometimes be mindful of

1:18:03me. when you say it with like this this

1:18:05humbleness, you come to the table of

1:18:07like I care about you and sometimes they

1:18:08need to lean on you in this way and vice

1:18:10versa that is a big part of what what

1:18:12opens those dialogues and those

1:18:14conversations to be more mindful and

1:18:15then of course like you said when

1:18:16somebody's living in their best version

1:18:18of themselves they step into that truth

1:18:19and that's inspiring to be around 100%

1:18:22>> contagious. Okay, one more scenario

1:18:24before we uh do a couple of segments. So

1:18:27this one is one partner is ready to

1:18:29commit the other becomes uncertain as

1:18:32things deepen. How do you tell fear from