Çilingir Sofrası 13 / Zaman; Kairos ve Kronos (with english subtitles)

0:00***translated by Prof.Dr. Nükhet Kardam*** Çilingir Sofrası 13 / Time, Kairos and Chronos

0:01Çilingir Sofrası is the table of the owner and we are just guests.

0:05In other words, we are in this world as guests.

0:08We are neither renters, nor owners.

0:11Sinan: (Singing a song from Orhan Gencebay) We are all guests, when the time comes,

0:18We pass on. When we die, we give up everything.

0:25That’s it! Just like that.

0:27This table is the world itself.

0:30There is a locksmith here that we don’t see who opens hearts.

0:35We will invite Him but we don’t know if He will oblige or not.

0:41We shall see if He (Dost) comes or not.

0:44There is no guarantee.

0:46It will depend on our state.

0:48We may receive inspiration or not.

0:51Let us see.

0:53So Serhan is now getting used to the terminology we use!

1:00So Serhan, just like we promised,

1:03let’s move on to discuss Indian wisdom.

1:08We won’t be describing how this ancient wisdom emerged historically

1:12and expanded to the rest of the world.

1:18What shall we do instead?

1:20We will directly explore the wisdom it offers.

1:24Also we will discuss the relationship of this wisdom to our own culture

1:31and to see if we can perceive our own culture as world wisdom.

1:37So we can start with the ancient wisdom of India,

1:40later there is the wisdom of China.

1:44Buddha represents a renewal in India.

1:48Then there is Zarathustra

1:51We will go to ancient Egypt

1:55The progression of these will be shaped by our sohbet.

1:57Then there is the ancient Greek wisdom.

2:03And we might also touch on Rome.

2:08That’s not original but it still has made important contributions.

2:15Serhan: Isn’t it true that all this knowledge emerges from humanity?

2:20When a person has found the Real in him/herself, then the wisdom received,

2:27is pretty much the same across the board, isn’t it?

2:30There is also no difference in terms of time.

2:36This is very true.

2:38Let’s talk about two different concepts of time in this context.

2:41There are others as well, but in this context we are talking about two concepts of time.

2:45One of them is ‘Eternal Time’.

2:52The Greek philosophy and mythology

2:57call eternal time

3:04Kairos.

3:08There is also

3:11a second concept of time, which is experiential,

3:13historical time:

3:16That is called ‘Kronos’.

3:17They call these two principles are called gods

3:23and say there are two gods of Time,

3:26One is the God of "Chronos"

3:28Serhan: I am sorry but I would like to open a parenthesis here:

3:31I always wondered why these are called ‘Gods’.

3:34Yes, the word ‘God’ in this case is ‘sabite’ meaning fixed,

3:40unchangeable principles.

3:42It is not what we understand when we say God,

3:45God who sends revelations and prophets and intervenes.

3:49Serhan: So this is not the God concept as understood in Anatolia.

3:51But when we say Anatolia,

3:53there is antique Anatolia, right?

3:56Anatolia in the Middle Ages.

3:57The Ottoman period, etc.

4:00So let’s say that in ancient wisdom

4:04what is meant by ‘God’ or Gods are "sabite"(fixed, unchangeable principles).

4:09Then there is the world that is changeable.

4:12In order to understand, make sense of the changing world in relation to the fixed essences,

4:16in philosophy, these fixed principles were called

4:18‘arche’ in Greek.

4:21In Turkish, the word is ‘ilke’, principle.

4:24In fact, I think there is a connection between Arche with the proto-Turkish word ‘arka’

4:30which means back or the basis.

4:39So the Greeks call this ‘Tanrı’ (God).

4:43This is not the same as ‘God’ as is understood in Abrahamic religions.

4:47It is not the same.

4:49In short,

4:52in philosophy, it is called ‘Arche’

4:57For example, ‘Arche’ could be a rational principle such as a principle of physics.

5:01Unchanging principles.

5:03In fact, what Ibn Arabi named

5:07Ayn al-Thabita (Sabita or fixed essences) in his Fusus al-Hikam (Bezels of Wisdom)

5:13were called ‘Idees’ in ancient Greek wisdom,

5:18or ‘gods’ during the period of Myths.

5:23Or these are points of reference.

5:27So the idea of a God who creates is different,

5:30or God who organizes is different.

5:32Serhan: It is the same word, but the way it is used, the meanings attributed to it are different.

5:37And without understanding the meaning of these concepts,

5:39we can’t really talk about religion, philosophy or art.

5:41It is not right.

5:43How can we talk about something without understanding the concepts underlying it?

5:47Then we have no basis.

5:50It is not worth talking about.

5:53That’s why we take concepts,

5:56the way they are used in philosophy, arts, and sciences as the basis.

6:02We had said that we play jazz but we also have standards.

6:06Based on these standards, we do hermeneutics, and

6:10we engage in interpretation, provide meaning.

6:13Rationality means to make comparisons

6:18to understand one thing relative to something else.

6:21Reasoning means to understand the cause and effect relationships.

6:25Then there is the ‘Intellect’,

6:30or the intellect with an ‘intention’ (gayi akil)

6:40This is what gives birth to Anlambilim (Semantics).

6:42Human beings want to make meaning.

6:46But meaning doesn’t come from nature,

6:49it emerges in human relationships.

6:52If we have an objective, a goal, then what we do becomes meaningful, based on a value system.

6:57Science or nature don’t tell us what to do.

7:03Nature shows us what is

7:07and science tells us how to understand nature, and how to use it.

7:12But philosophy tells us the purpose of our actions,

7:14why we use the findings of science in the way we do, our purpose.

7:17Philosophy is the only discipline

7:20that creates and brings values to the fore.

7:31Art belongs to the future,

7:35art is creative so we don’t know what will emerge.

7:40Science is to understand what existed before.

7:43Art is the effort to understand and to act on what will emerge in the future.

7:50And the purpose of our activities is the question of philosophy.

7:54Religion is about devotion.

7:58For example, we know a lot of things,

8:03but we don’t care about them,

8:07but there are some things we devote ourselves to,

8:10even to the point of risking our lives.

8:13Religion is this point of devotion.

8:27Now, the reason we talked about two different concepts of time.

8:32One is time that is beyond history

8:38Where there are stars, fixed essences.

8:45Then there is time that changes which is

8:50Chronos

8:51We call the time that changes Chronos.

8:54Sinan: it is chronological.

9:00There is a myth about this.

9:03We are going to get to Indian wisdom but we are starting here.

9:05Now, Chronos is the God of change, according to the myths.

9:09In order for there to be time (Chronos), there has to be change.

9:16It is interesting that in order for chronological time to exist

9:22Things need to disappear.

9:27If there is no change, there is no flow in time.

9:30If something is abiding, then there is no time.

9:33Serhan: So death is a necessity then.

9:37So let’s say you died, then there is no time.

9:41For there to be the concept of time, there needs to be both death and rebirth.

9:46Remember the famous bird, Phoenix that burned,

9:53and then rose and was reborn from his ashes.

9:56This is time.

9:58We put so much effort into making sure

10:02that what we consume is durable

10:06Technology is put to use for this purpose

10:10But in order for time to work,

10:14there needs to be dissolution and destruction.

10:20Then everything would end, but there is birth again.

10:24In winter, we see disappearance

10:27And then spring will arrive and growth will occur again so that the rhythm of life and death will continue.

10:36This death and life rhythm creates time.

10:38Isn’t that the same in music, rhythm is time, that we call tempo?

10:44And then we said there is Kairos

10:50That is also time but it is eternal,

10:55can’t be measured,

10:59it is not rational because it can’t be measured.

11:03So what is it then? It is a point of reference.

11:11Now, the word ‘Kadim’ is very important.

11:14In English it is translated as ‘ancient’ but that doesn’t quite cover its entire meaning,

11:19Kadim comes from ‘Kidem’.

11:22Kadim both means ‘arche’ but Kidem (originating from Kadim) means the first step.

11:36We say ‘kidemli’ to the one who takes the first step.

11:39The one that takes the next step is ‘kidemsiz’ (without kidem)

11:42So whoever takes the first step begins the process, the others follow.

11:49Why am I explaining this in great detail?

11:52Because

11:55the God called Chronos eats her children.

12:01A God that eats her child that she gives birth to!

12:03According to the myth.

12:05Isn’t that wild?

12:09But as I explained a few minutes ago

12:11There is a continuous cycle of birth and death in the universe.

12:19In other words, time must eat or destroy.

12:21Sinan: So here the cycle of ‘kevn’ (coming into being) and ‘fesad’ (disappearing) is at work.

12:27Serhan: What does it mean - kevn and fesad?

12:28Kevn comes from Kun in Arabic, which means ‘Be’.

12:33Kun is written with letters k, w, n and is read as Kun.

12:38But because there is ‘w’ in the middle we can also read it as Kevn.

12:43Kevn means "Oluş" (the process of creation)

12:45and Kun mans ol (Be)

12:50and Mukevverat is creations.

12:56The principle, its logic and its reality.

13:01Mukevverat is the universe or universes.

13:05What do we mean by universe?

13:07There is creation and dissolution in the universe.

13:08‘Fesad’ means dissolution.

13:12‘Kevn’ is creation,

13:15‘Fesad’ is dissolution and then there is creation again.

13:22This cycle is what creates time.

13:26What kind of time?

13:28Chronos.

13:31But there is also another concept of time: Kairos.

13:32Where there is no creation or dissolution.

13:36What kind of time is that?

13:37It is is conceptual.

13:40It is a principle or idee that is fixed.

13:48In the ‘Chronos’ time, everything is constantly changing.

13:52Everything is relative. That’s why we call it relative.

13:57What is absolute is Allah.

14:00All creation is relative to each other.

14:06There is constant dissolution and bringing into being.

14:10Creation is only possible with dissolution.

14:14Something needs to disappear, in order for something else to take its place.

14:20Otherwise, God’s attribute as Creator would not be possible.

14:24To repeat, Chronos ate all her children according to the myth

14:37except one who she cannot eat.

14:41How interesting.

14:42That child is Zeus.

14:46Chronos eats all her children except for Zeus.

14:54Zeus represents that which cannot be destroyed, which is abiding.

15:00That means in the world of change, there is one unchangeable reality.

15:09That is called Zeus by Greeks, Turks called it Teo

15:16Chinese called it Tao

15:24French called it Dieu

15:29Dionysus

15:32These are all sabite (unchanged, fixed) which

15:37remain unchanged amidst all the change. Zeus the God

15:42What is this?

15:44Serhan: I am now thinking what is intrinsic to this concept.

15:49Does it mean to stay in one particular instant of time, is it like that?

15:54We are not able to witness such a situation.

15:57Everything is constantly in flux.

15:59What is there that is unchanging that Chronos cannot destroy or eat?

16:07That is zeka (Intelligence). Zeus means Intelligence.

16:13Not individual intelligence but Universal Intellect.

16:16Individual intelligence changes as events change.

16:21Universal Intellect creates Logos (Consciousness)

16:26Intelligence is not something we acquire through effort. It is inborn.

16:32We don’t work to attain it.

16:35What does Plato say?

16:39Teos is Universal Intelligence,

16:41The Intelligence of the entire cosmos.

16:47One that created and organized the universe.

16:51And the One who created the human soul.

16:55Our own individual intelligence partakes in this Universal Intellect.

16:59We each participate in that Universal Intelligence,

17:05but God is Universal Intellect

17:09In the Sufi literature,

17:14our participation in this Universal Intellect is referred to as ‘Rab’.

17:21When we say ‘ya Rabbi’, we are saying Ey Intelligence!

17:23We don’t own intelligence, it came to us apriori.

17:30We didn’t get it ourselves, it was already there so we don’t own it.

17:34We say my intellect, but is it ours? No.

17:38You are able to think because of this intellect.

17:43So every person is participating in Universal Intellect through "Irade" (Willpower).

17:52So what is our role in all this?

17:53If Teos or Zeus is acting through us, what are we doing?

17:59We have intelligence as a capability, but whether we use it or not is up to us.

18:04Servanthood belongs to us.

18:07We request to use it; we can’t order to use it.

18:17Serhan: something comes to our mind or occurs to us suddenly.

18:19That’s not what I mean.

18:21To do anything, let’s think of our intelligence as Kudretullah (Power).

18:31Think of it as a prayer, I am extending my hand

18:35And pick up this mug. I want to drink this tea.

18:38This is my request, in servanthood.

18:43But what makes it happen is not me.

18:51It is not me that makes it happen.

18:56I can’t say that my intelligence is me. It is given to me. But

19:03I can’t say it is not me.

19:07If I say it is an instrument, is it using me or am I using it?

19:15Sinan: There are so many millions of activities that have to take place in your body

19:17So that you are able to pick up that mug.

19:22You are doing all this automatically, you are talking. Meanwhile, your hair is growing.

19:30Who is breathing, blinking? Who is organizing all these words we are uttering?

19:35Who is creating these words, these sentences?

19:40Sinan: Arranging your breathing so you are not screaming or whispering?

19:44All of this is happening automatically.

19:47Who is thinking about the next thought, next sentence?

19:51How do we do all of this?

19:56Once you start thinking about all of this, it is mind boggling.

20:00These are all happening but where am I in the midst of all this?

20:06Now, when we turn to the teachings in antiquity,

20:13there is really no time that can be attached to these.

20:17For instance, They don’t really know. First they thought ancient Egyptian civilization emerged 3000 A.D.

20:28Then they said perhaps 1800 A.D. And now they say

20:3212,000 A.D based on scientific findings.

20:39We didn’t have any reference that went so far back before.

20:42Look at Göbeklitepe, we now have some evidence that it was established 12,000 A.D.

20:46Before we thought that time period signified the Ice Age

20:50and we didn’t have any reference to that time, and now we do.

20:55What I am trying to say is: We try to base our sense of history on scientific findings.

21:00There is a concept called ‘prehistoric’ time in philosophy. What does that mean?

21:05We can’t quite name a time, but we find artistic remnants or traces.

21:10We can attempt to interpret what we have, but we can’t be certain.

21:18We call this antique wisdom.

21:23Serhan, you said that they are perfectly valid now as well.

21:28That they take place in a time period that is still valid now.

21:31For example, when you look at sacred books, let’s say the Torah,

21:38You can see chronological time

21:42After the five books of the Torah comes Tanakh,

21:48which mentions generations, locations, stories about families and wars,

21:54setting up of states

22:01So there is the depiction of chronological time.

22:04But when you come to the Qur’an, there is no chronology.

22:09There is a sense of timelessness there.

22:13Some tribes are mentioned, you can’t find any references about when and where.

22:23Because they refer to timeless principles.

22:27They refer to spirituality and allow us to engage in hermeneutics.

22:34In this context, when we go to India,

22:37There is the Indian geography, economy,

22:42and the history of wars,

22:47As well as those who were known for their wisdom.

22:51Academics study all of that.

22:55What we do here is to go directly to the timeless teachings.

22:58We want to directly go to the ancient wisdom itself.

23:05We are not interested in talking about particular times and places in India.

23:08We are not concerned with what happened when and where.

23:13***translated by Prof.Dr. Nükhet Kardam*** Çilingir Sofrası 13 / Time, Kairos and Chronos