Jeremiah Johnston - The Book of Enoch, Nephilim and the Ark of the Covenant | SRS #293

0:02[music]

0:05Dr. Jeremiah Johnston, welcome to the

0:08show.

0:08>> Thanks for having me, Sean. [sighs]

0:11>> You're welcome. It's an honor to have

0:12you. And um you know, I we've been

0:16looking at you for a long time and um I

0:20just thought this would be the perfect

0:22interview for Easter. So, we do a

0:24Christmas interview, Thanksgiving

0:26interview, Easter interview. We embrace

0:29all the holidays here.

0:30>> Yeah, absolutely.

0:30>> And um and so we really try to do

0:34something really meaningful, especially

0:35on Christmas and Easter. And um the

0:38shroud of turn is something that I've

0:40been interested in for a long time. In

0:42fact, our mutual friend Lee Stroel uh I

0:45believe is the first time I first person

0:47that brought it up to me, right?

0:48>> And uh I was just fascinated. So thank

0:51So thank you for coming.

0:52>> Absolutely. And he is risen, brother.

0:54>> That's right. You want to start with a

0:56prayer?

0:57>> I would love that. How about you lead

0:58it?

0:59>> I would be honored.

1:00>> Perfect.

1:01>> Jesus, you're King of Kings and Lord of

1:03Lords. And what we're about to discuss

1:06has utterly transformed my life. I pray

1:09for every person watching and listening

1:11that they would find the hope that the

1:13tomb is empty. That you're alive forever

1:15and so we can have a living, undying,

1:18unddeinished hope. I pray Lord that in

1:20this conversation I can minister to

1:21Shawn. I pray you'd bless him and meet

1:23him at his greatest point of need right

1:25now. And father, we pray that as we

1:28share, we would know, Lord God, that

1:30it's not by might, it's not by power,

1:32but it's by your spirit, saith the Lord

1:34of hosts. So we start now by just giving

1:36you the glory and asking you to bless

1:39this conversation, especially at this

1:41wonderful Easter season. And Lord, we

1:44say, "Come soon, Lord Jesus." And we

1:46quote John 14:19. You said, "Because I

1:50live, you will live also." So thank you

1:52for everything you're going to do. We

1:53know that this conversation is going to

1:55impact the world. We're excited about it

1:57in Jesus name. Amen.

1:59>> Amen.

2:01>> Thank you.

2:02>> Thank you. [clears throat]

2:04>> So, let me give you an introduction

2:06here. Dr. Jeremiah Johnston, president

2:08and founder of Christian Thinkers

2:10Society and serve as a pastor of

2:13apologetics and cultural engagement at

2:16Prestonwood Baptist Church near Dallas,

2:18Texas.

2:20PhD from Middle Sex University in the

2:23United Kingdom where you completed your

2:25doctoral residency at Oxford. An elected

2:28member of

2:30Studiorum Novi Testamenti Societus, the

2:35most prestigious New Testament scholarly

2:37guild in the world. Author of 15 books

2:41including Body of Proof, the seven best

2:43reasons to believe in the resurrection

2:45of Jesus in the brand new release.

2:48Congratulations books right there.

2:50>> The Jesus Discoveries [clears throat] 10

2:53historic finds that bring us face to

2:55face with Jesus. Examined ancient

2:58manuscripts with your own hands all

3:00around the world. You're married to

3:02Audrey. You are the father of five

3:04children children including triplet

3:07boys.

3:08>> I haven't slept in nine years since

3:09[laughter] I was one. I got two and I

3:12haven't slept. And uh and I already said

3:15this, but uh you know, Lee Stroble uh I

3:18believe you consider him a mentor,

3:20>> a dear friend.

3:21>> I do too. And uh Lee is awesome. In

3:24fact, there's his

3:25>> I saw that.

3:26>> You saw the book up there.

3:27>> I saw I saw his swag up there.

3:28>> Right on, man. [laughter] And

3:30[clears throat] uh and yeah, once again,

3:31this is we're releasing this on Easter

3:34and uh I just I mean, it's it's all

3:37about the resurrection. That's right.

3:39And so this is really the perfect

3:41episode for that. But um so before we

3:45get too into it, I found out you spoke

3:47at Davos at the at the World Economic

3:50Forum.

3:50>> That's right.

3:52>> How the hell did you get invited to that

3:55place? I mean,

3:56>> that's one of those places where I I

3:58mean I probably shouldn't say this,

4:00probably get blasted, but you

4:02>> I've been blessed.

4:03>> Jesus just doesn't get mentioned much at

4:05the World Economic Forum. In fact, I

4:06don't think there's very many people

4:08over there that believe in him. Well,

4:09you did a really great show uh recently

4:12with The Exorcist and he mentioned the

4:14Antichrist quite a bit and my wife let

4:16me know at Davos. I was giving the

4:18gospel to all the people that are going

4:19to work with the Antichrist someday.

4:21>> Pretty much that's that's what I think

4:23too.

4:23>> Um I was invited by uh Rich Strombach.

4:26He leads the USA House. So he brought

4:28the administration there. Trump, the

4:30State Department, 80 heads of state were

4:31there. And it was started in 1971 by of

4:34course the corrupt Klaus Schwab. They

4:37just replaced the current president for

4:39being in the Epstein files as well. So

4:41they're without a president. And Mr.

4:43Strombach, who is a dear friend, had

4:45seen my material on the resurrection of

4:47Jesus. And he had a conversion in 2026.

4:51He used to do, I mean, Vanity Fair

4:52covered rich. I mean, he'd do

4:54billionaire hot tub parties. I mean,

4:55he's Mr. Davos himself. He's a

4:57connector. But he had a conversion. He

5:00had an experience with Jesus Christ in

5:012022 that changed his life. So he sent

5:04me a message and he said, "I want you to

5:07bring the gospel and the evidence and

5:09the receipts for the resurrection to

5:12Davos." And so Jillian Ted, editor of

5:14Financial Times, provost of King's

5:16College, Cambridge University,

5:18interviewed me at USA House. The

5:21Washington Post sponsored that our

5:24session if you can believe that. It was

5:26shocking to me.

5:27>> Uh you can watch it all on YouTube and I

5:30gave all the evidence for the

5:31resurrection of Jesus. And I made this

5:33point because these are crypto CEOs, a

5:37some of the best businesses and also

5:39some of the most corrupt people on

5:40earth. I learned at WE that it's really

5:43not governments that run the world. It's

5:45these multinational companies that run

5:47the world, not governments. But I'm

5:50wanted to make it clear that this idea

5:53of forgiving debts, this idea of free

5:56enterprise, this these ideals that be

6:00that built western civilization come

6:02from one event horizon. The physical

6:06bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ.

6:09That message rehumanized humanity. Ideas

6:12of loving your enemies, forgiving debts,

6:15that didn't come from Marxism, that

6:17didn't come from socialism. Of course

6:18they're all looking at me like this in

6:20Davos. I said that the event horizon is

6:23the resurrection of Christ.

6:25>> Wow. How do you think

6:26>> they invited me back next year? So

6:28>> are you ser I was just going to ask how

6:29did how do how do you think they took

6:30it? You got an invite back?

6:32>> You want me to run the whole faith

6:33section for next year for

6:35>> They have a faith section

6:36>> now. They do. [laughter]

6:38>> So that's awesome.

6:39>> I felt like Paul on the Aropagus. If

6:41you've read Acts 17, if you've been to

6:42Athens, some mocked, but some believed.

6:46>> How did it feel? I mean, did you was it

6:49eerie feeling being in

6:51>> I had Well, how did it feel? First off,

6:53I have a chapter in one of my books, why

6:55I don't feel my faith because my

6:56feelings betray me all the time.

6:59>> Um, I had to just keep following truth

7:01because I had more demonic spiritual

7:03warfare on me that week than I've ever

7:05had. I gave three presentations at W and

7:07could not wait to get home.

7:09>> I'll bet. What kind of spiritual attacks

7:11you want to talk about any of that?

7:13>> Anxiety.

7:14>> Yeah. wanting to deliver, wanting to get

7:18done and make sure that I said

7:20everything I wanted to say for the Lord,

7:22understanding that this is the first

7:24time in 55 years Jesus has ever been

7:26mentioned at the World Economic Forum

7:28and just the weight of that. But greater

7:30is he who's in me than he who's in the

7:31world. 1 John 4:4. So I later watched

7:34it. I don't even remember answering the

7:35way I did. It was just the Holy Spirit.

7:38>> Right on, man. Well, I I would say

7:41mission accomplished if there's a faith

7:43sector at the World Economic No one

7:45needs the gospel. No one is beyond God's

7:47reach. That's the thing. Even the people

7:48at W, they all need to hear the truth of

7:50the gospel,

7:51>> man. Good for you. That's

7:53>> praise God. But I wanted them to know

7:55these ideas, these amenities. You know,

7:57I drove here in an awesome rental car. I

7:59stayed at a nice hotel last night with

8:00air conditioning. These amenities that

8:03we enjoy in free enterprise have not

8:05always been there. They come out of a

8:07worldview and they come out of the cut

8:09and thrust of the resurrection. And

8:11that's why the conversation we're having

8:13right now is so important for people to

8:15get. [clears throat] What rises and what

8:17falls? What are the stakes of what we're

8:20talking about? This is not some kind of

8:22religious exercise we're doing just

8:24because it's a holiday and it's Easter.

8:26What rises and falls? The stakes of if

8:29Jesus rose from the grave is the

8:32greatest X factor the world has ever

8:33known.

8:36>> Love that. Love that. Let's talk about

8:39the shroud.

8:40>> Okay. What is it? I know you you you

8:42just we have it right out there. You

8:44just ran me through the whole thing and

8:46it is

8:47>> I mean it's breathtaking. It's it's it I

8:50mean it's like

8:52>> it's a once in a-lifetime opportunity,

8:54right?

8:54>> You know, for most of us here and um

8:57>> you know, can you just talk about what

8:59it is and and and and

9:02I'm sure we're probably going to overlay

9:03some of the stuff that we just talked

9:04about in there, but uh but I just want

9:06to let's do it again.

9:08>> Okay. I've got some gifts for you. Can I

9:10begin with the gifts? Is that all right?

9:12>> Sure.

9:13>> Do you mind? Cuz I wonder because it

9:15goes right with the shroud. I am gifting

9:17you, Sean. Let me hand this to you. I

9:20want you to take this.

9:22That's connected.

9:24>> Oh, [clears throat] what you're holding

9:26in your hand is a replica

9:30of the spear that pierced our Lord's

9:34ribs through rib five and six. John's

9:37gospel accurately records that blood and

9:39water spewed out and that is a exact

9:42replica of a Roman spear. Can you

9:45imagine that being thrust through rib

9:46five and six and the signature of that

9:50wound I just showed you is on the shroud

9:52of Turin. You can actually see it. It

9:54almost looks like a figure 8 bloodpool.

9:57It's postmortem blood. The blood is

9:59already separating because it's dead

10:02blood. And that is a gift for you to

10:04always remember that he did that because

10:07he loved you so much,

10:10>> man.

10:11>> And the weight of it, too. And of course

10:13would have been sharper.

10:14>> Yeah.

10:16>> Wow. I thank you.

10:19>> Absolutely. And I'm not done. My

10:21spiritual gift is giving. So, also one

10:25thing I love about your program and love

10:27about you in particular is you are

10:30you're addicted to truth and you're

10:32willing to share the truth no matter the

10:34no matter the cost. I have huge regard

10:36for you for that because so many people

10:38are weak, especially people in the

10:40Christian faith. They're so weak. They

10:42won't they won't come on your show. They

10:43won't speak boldly for their faith. And

10:45so I have in my hand a faximile of the

10:49most priceless New Testament fragment on

10:51earth. But there's a reason. I'm not

10:53just giving it to you because it's

10:55priceless. I'm not just giving it to you

10:56because it's the oldest. I'm giving it

10:59giving it to you because of what it

11:00says. Now, I first This is called

11:03Papyrus 52. P52. Uh the Gothic P just

11:07means papyrus because it is clearly

11:09written on papyrus paper. This was found

11:12in the dry sands of Egypt. Of course, it

11:14would last 2,000 years. But this is the

11:17conversation, Sean. So, this is the

11:19oldest that we have. It's dated to 125

11:22AD. And if you know when the Gospel of

11:25John was written, the Gospel of John was

11:27written in the '9s. So that I'm talking

11:29about the autograph, the one he actually

11:31wrote. So this is a copy of that that

11:33was likely circulating when John's

11:36gospel was circulating. And what this

11:39records, and I find this fascinating,

11:41this is the And here here we are in

11:43Easter for an Easter broadcast. This is

11:45the conversation. And it flips around

11:47because again it's written on both

11:48sides, the recto and the verso. Can I

11:51read it to you in Greek?

11:52>> Yes.

11:52>> This is the conversation Jesus is having

11:54with Pontius Pilate. And do you remember

11:57he asked Jesus, "What is truth?" And

12:00Jesus responds right here, "Ect

12:03alletheus. Everyone who is of the truth

12:07hears my voice." And that is the oldest

12:10fragment that we have of the New

12:12Testament. I've visited. I've studied

12:14it. It's in the University of

12:15Manchester. Uh it's in Manchester at the

12:18John Ryland's Library. So, we had this

12:20made for you in this frame, but I'm

12:22giving it to you because I have such and

12:24I join millions of others. I echo what

12:26they say. Thank you for being fearless

12:29about seeking truth. Thank you for

12:31asking all the hard questions that

12:33nobody else will. I know the price that

12:35you pay for that in your family. So, I

12:37hope that this will inspire you because

12:39truth never dies. Jesus. I spell truth

12:42Jesus s by the way. So this is for you

12:54man. Those who are of the truth hear my

12:57voice.

13:02Thank you. Absolutely. Of course, Pilate

13:05was the first post-modern relativist

13:07because he go he doesn't use the

13:09definite article. They said, "What is

13:10truth?" And that's where so many are

13:13today. And that's why your program is so

13:14important.

13:16>> Thank you.

13:17>> I'm not done yet. One more gift.

13:19>> One of my favorite quotes is, "The truth

13:22is like a lion. Set it free and it'll

13:24defend itself."

13:24>> Exactly.

13:26Last gift for you. Uh, and this is an

13:28ode to my time in Oxford. Um, and this

13:31is a chapter in Jesus discoveries. This

13:34is, uh, and you got to say it like

13:35you're a snob from Britain. Okay.

13:38[laughter]

13:40>> [gasps]

13:40>> We Americans would say Magdalene

13:42College. You got to say like you're a

13:43Brit Modlin College. This is where CS

13:47Lewis taught. And of course, all of his

13:49colleagues hated him because he wrote

13:51popular books. You know, this is this is

13:53the criticism I get. You know, we

13:56academics, we write for dozens. You

13:58know, the 12 people in the world that

13:59care about our specialty. But now we

14:02write all these I've I've taken from

14:04Lewis. You know, Lewis comes to Christ

14:06and averages one book a year for the

14:08next 30 years of his life. And remember,

14:10he writes that wonderful book, The Screw

14:13Tape Letters. And I don't know if you

14:15remember who he dedicated the book to.

14:17>> I don't.

14:17>> Tolken. And Tolken, of course, the

14:20author of the Lord of the Rings, was

14:21actually offended. He thought, why is

14:23this lowbrow non-academic book that's

14:26going to make no impact being dedicated

14:28to me? Well, of course, then it makes

14:30Lewis a wartime celebrity in America.

14:32The Screw Tape Letter. So Lewis taught

14:34at Mlin College. That's why I'm sharing

14:36all this. This is the se I've just given

14:38you the oldest fragment. This is the

14:40second oldest fragment which I held in

14:42my hands for the first time in 2009. And

14:45the shame and I want to get into this.

14:46The shame about all these fragments is

14:48so few people actually ever see them.

14:50When I signed my name to see it, I was

14:52like the second person in a year who had

14:54seen this. No kidding.

14:55>> So this is called the Jesus fragment. I

14:58have a whole chapter of it in the Jesus

14:59discoveries. This was found in 1901 and

15:02it's called the Jesus fragment because

15:04this is the first New Testament fragment

15:06that we have that actually has the name

15:07of Jesus on it. It's the earliest

15:10witness to Matthew's gospel that we

15:12have. And again, speaking of Easter,

15:15this is the conversation of what we call

15:16the words of institution. This is the

15:18last supper. So all of this is gerine to

15:21what we're talking about and it's dated

15:23to the second century. So, my last gift

15:26for you is is P64 or what we call the

15:29Jesus fragment.

15:32>> Wow, man. Thank you.

15:34>> Oh, my pleasure.

15:36>> This is amazing.

15:44And that's the size. That's an actual

15:46factimile. these amazing scraps

15:50found in the dry sands of Egypt,

15:52literally in trash heaps that are now

15:54priceless.

15:55>> Wow.

15:55>> But I've got more cool stuff. We're

15:57gonna do all kinds of show and tell.

15:58People got to watch this whole broadcast

16:00and then share it with everybody. I'm

16:02You got something right next to you

16:03right now that nobody in the world has,

16:04which I'll share later. So, back to your

16:06question about the shroud. You said,

16:08"What is the shroud?"

16:09>> What is it?

16:10>> Okay. Well, I used to be the biggest I

16:12used to be the biggest skeptic of the

16:14shroud. So I did my PhD on the

16:16resurrection of Jesus. What they call a

16:1893,000word

16:19uber leaferang gashishta of

16:21resurrection. That's German for a

16:23history of resurrection belief in the

16:26Judeo-Christian motif. So I have traced

16:29belief in resurrection from the earliest

16:33parts of Hebrew Bible through late late

16:35second temple Judaism through the

16:37intertestamental period through the New

16:39Testament and then where it finds its

16:41fullest expression in second century

16:44Christianity. So I'm an expert in

16:46resurrection belief. Okay, I'm already

16:48putting you to sleep just explaining

16:50that. But that's my academic pedigree in

16:53that entire training where at Keeble

16:56College I would attend faculty of

16:57theology. I defended my thesis um to

17:01professor William Telford who began my

17:03viva you know everything's in Latin in

17:05Oxford. He began my viva by saying

17:08Jeremiah let me just get one thing

17:09straight. I've read your whole every

17:11other word he's saying is Latin and I'm

17:13not sure what he's saying but he was

17:15complimenting it but he said I have to

17:16ask you one question. do you actually

17:19believe the physical bodily resurrection

17:21of Jesus happened? And he paused and he

17:24said, "Or is that just imaginative

17:25storytelling?"

17:28And I said, "Professor Telford, thank

17:29you for the question." David Hume said,

17:32"Wise men choose probabilities. Without

17:34a doubt, I believe Jesus physically,

17:37bodily rose from the grave. I can't

17:39believe it. Otherwise, the evidence

17:41compels me to believe it." And he sat

17:42back. This is a Bible scholar. And he

17:45said, "I don't see it that way. let's

17:47start your viva and he later passed me

17:49with commendation. So in that entire

17:51history of being in Oxford 3 years I was

17:54conditioned that the shroud was a

17:57Catholic relic with no scientific

18:00backing that was 700 years old based on

18:03a carbon 14 dating. It turns out when

18:07you look at it, the shroud of Turin is

18:10scientific proof of the physical bodily

18:15resurrection of Jesus Christ. And I

18:18believe that based on the evidence in

18:20the 102 academic disciplines that have

18:22studied over 600,000 research hours in

18:25it. I believe that because I'm not

18:27irrational.

18:28Wow. Wow. So, I went from skeptic to

18:32believing in it based on the science.

18:34And here's what I like to tell people

18:36about.

18:36>> How long did that take?

18:37>> That took three years for me because I

18:39had to do the research.

18:41>> A lot of us were YouTube smart. We we

18:43know a soundbite, but we don't know the

18:45substance. And so I would call up the

18:47scholars. I've flown all over the world.

18:49I've met with the physicists. I've met

18:50with the mathematicians. I've met with

18:52the world's elite scientists. Sean, they

18:55don't have a theological axe to grind.

18:57They're not pastors. They don't want it

18:59to be true. They're just following the

19:01evidence where it leads. And that's why

19:03when I meet with Bruno Barbaris, and by

19:05the way, the irony of his name is not

19:07lost on me. I mentioned that in the

19:08Jesus discoveries. Bruno Barbaris sounds

19:11like Barabus, who Jesus took his place

19:13on the cross. Bruno Barbaris is a

19:15mathematician. He's seen the shroud over

19:18100 times in Turin. It's in Turan. We

19:20should mention that it's in northern

19:22Italy. You can fly into Milan, take the

19:24train an hour, see the Alps. Beautiful.

19:27Enjoy a train ride, and all of a sudden,

19:28you're in Turan, Italy, where the shroud

19:30is at the St. Giovani Cathedral. So

19:33there's Bruno Barbaris. He takes all of

19:36the information that I just showed you

19:38on the cross, the wound patterns, the

19:41crown of thorns, and he assigns as a

19:43mathematician a probability to it. And

19:45Bruno says, Jeremiah, there is a one in

19:50200 billion chance it is not the

19:53historical Jesus.

19:54>> One in 200 billion

19:55>> billion based on his mathematical

19:57probability. And so then I asked him

19:59because you know people are dumb and

20:01sometimes you have to ask questions to

20:03bring your audience along or or they

20:05just need to hear it a different way. I

20:07said so Bruno are you saying that you

20:09believe that this was the Jesus of the

20:12Bible who was crucified and who this

20:15image is? He said yes. How can I not

20:18believe that the probability compels me

20:21to believe? He put his hands up like

20:22that. And so the shroud is mentioned in

20:25all four gospels. All four gospels tell

20:27us that Joseph of Arythea and Nicodemus,

20:30two members of the Sanhedrin, ask Pilate

20:33for the body of Jesus. Pilot is shocked

20:36that he is so quickly dead. We can talk

20:38about the brutality of crucifixion later

20:40if you want to. And this was an amazing

20:42act of courage and faith because

20:44according to uh Jewish tradition, if the

20:47Sanhedrin condemned a criminal to death,

20:50it was on the Sanhedrin to bury that

20:52criminal. Jesus is not buried honorably,

20:55but he's buried properly. Does that make

20:57sense? He's not given an honorable

20:58burial burial. He's given a a proper

21:00burial. And Joseph of Arythea, who is a

21:04wealthy man, has a linen shroud of fine

21:07linen. He didn't go out to Walmart. You

21:09know, the Walmart or Target wasn't open

21:11on Friday afternoon before Shivat and

21:14Passover. Okay? He had already purchased

21:16this for his own death planning. In

21:18fact, he said, "Better yet, we'll use my

21:21family tomb." So, they wrapped a lot of

21:23this was just expediency because

21:25according to Jewish burial traditions,

21:27which I'm an expert in, you had to bury

21:30on the day of death before nightfall.

21:33This is Shivat and this is Passover.

21:36That's how we can date. We can talk

21:37about how we can date the crucifixion.

21:39We know the exact date of it. So they

21:42wrap Jesus's body in this fine linen

21:44shroud which is called cinden in Greek

21:47according to the Greek New Testament.

21:49Then they use Athonia. That's another

21:51Greek word strips. So they wrap the

21:54whole body with a with fine linen. One

21:56continuous sheet. And then they wrap the

21:58feet and the hands and probably even the

22:00face just to so your body just to

22:04protect your to dignify the body. They

22:06place that 200 feet away in Joseph of

22:09Arythea's family tomb. He's in the tomb

22:12for 39 hours, Sean. And then something

22:16absolutely miraculous and powerful

22:18happens, according to my other friend,

22:21Paulo Dezo of Ania Laboratories outside

22:24of Rome. The amount of energy it would

22:27take to see what I just showed you on

22:29the shroud, an image that is

22:32superficial. It's only 0.02 02 microns

22:35thin. We could shave it off, Sean, with

22:37a knife. That's how superficial the

22:40image is. Science has proven it's not

22:42paint. It's not pigment. It's not dye.

22:45There are no brush strokes. It doesn't

22:46absorb like the blood does. Why? The

22:49blood was there before the resurrection.

22:51This superficial image is there. Paulo

22:54took 5 years. Of course, I met with him,

22:56interviewed him. [clears throat]

22:58And Paulo says, Jeremiah, it would take

23:0134,000

23:02billion watts of energy traveling at

23:051/4th of a billionth of a second to

23:08change the chemical makeup of a fine

23:10linen shroud to leave that image. And he

23:12said, "We don't have that power on

23:13Earth." So a nuclear event happens on

23:17Sunday, April 5th, AD33. And that's why

23:21I tell people the Shroud of Turin is not

23:24a death cloth. It is a resurrection

23:26cloth. And better yet, it is an itemized

23:29receipt of how much Jesus loves you,

23:31Sean.

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25:32What do you mean by a nuclear event?

25:35What What do you mean by that? You mean

25:36he just

25:38>> dissipated out of the

25:40>> That is a great question. What I mean by

25:42a nuclear event, I'm saying that in

25:44short form. Um because according to the

25:47physicists the amount of energy it would

25:50take because because there's no pigment

25:52because there's no dye because there's

25:54no paint. Science has proven and

25:56published that we science has to ask how

26:00is this image there? And there was a

26:03chemical change to the shroud that if it

26:06would have been lasted longer than 140th

26:08of a billionth of a second, it would

26:11have just it would have scourged

26:13scorched. It would have just burned up.

26:15it would have been gone. And so what for

26:17the physicists watching this is called

26:19>> power 140th of a second.

26:21>> A billionth of a second.

26:22>> 140th of a billionth of a second. So it

26:25was a cold power that I mean faster than

26:27a blink of an eye. 1/4th of a billionth

26:29of a second. But it was the amount of

26:32energy 34,000

26:35billion watts. And he has a weapons

26:38clearance Paulo Dezo. So he works with

26:41one of the most powerful lasers on

26:42Earth. And I actually have they they

26:45grew fine linen. They grew a sample. It

26:48took five years to get a first century

26:51model of a shroud. And they would beam

26:54their lasers. And they were only able to

26:56change a postage size stamp

27:00size. You just looked at a 14x4

27:053x7 full shroud that has an image on it.

27:09We don't have that power on Earth. So,

27:11here's how I like to put it. If the big

27:14bang created the earth, the resurrection

27:17of Jesus Christ was the big bang that

27:19resurrected and redeemed the the earth

27:22and you and me.

27:23>> Wow.

27:24>> That's what I mean by a nuclear event.

27:26It's the best way to explain it. And so,

27:28I've met with the scientists, you would

27:30love this, from Sandia Labs. I've met

27:33with the scientists from Los Alamos

27:35Laboratories.

27:36>> No kidding.

27:36>> The Jet Propulsion Laboratories. These

27:39are the greatest scientists on earth.

27:41>> So in the shroud, one of the really

27:43fascinating things that I've not been

27:44able to share on other shows is we have

27:48to ask like what kicked off the

27:50scientific exploration of the shroud. Do

27:52I have a minute to share this? Is that

27:53all right? Absolutely. This is

27:54unbelievable.

27:56>> In 1976, two physicists are at Sandia

28:00Labs. Eric Jumper and John Jackson.

28:03They're at the Air Force Academy.

28:04They're physicists. They're professors.

28:07They have an VP8 image analyzer. Have

28:10you ever heard of a VP8 image analyzer?

28:13>> I have not.

28:13>> Okay. A lot of people haven't. Um, this

28:16is where the nuclear bombs are being

28:18developed and prec with more precision.

28:21The VP8 image analyzer is designed to

28:23study what happens to the surface of the

28:27Earth after a nuclear explosion. It it

28:30ex it it it actually looks at depth of

28:33light, field, topography, all of that.

28:36Well, this guy has a VP8 image analyzer

28:39and he takes a photo of the shroud from

28:42[clears throat] 1931, the Enray photo.

28:45I'd mentioned we'll talk about the

28:47different photos that have been taken of

28:48the shroud. So, he doesn't have the

28:50actual shroud. He just has a photo of

28:52the shroud that he puts through the VP8

28:54image analyzer in 1976.

28:58Sean, they are blown away because there

29:00is a three there is 3D encoding on the

29:03shroud. There is a topography almost a

29:05holographic nature to it that shows

29:08depths of light even where there

29:10shouldn't be where the body wasn't even

29:12touching the shroud. Then they put a

29:15picture of like their grandchildren

29:16through it. It's a distorted image. No

29:19other image on earth has 3D encoding

29:22that is holographic in nature.

29:24>> And that is what kicked off this

29:28scientific study in 1978.

29:30>> Just a picture. Just a picture.

29:33Incidentally, here's a cool factoid.

29:35>> So, was that picture a miracle or could

29:37you I mean, the whole picture would have

29:39done it. Well, yeah. I mean,

29:40>> any photo. So, we could take one right

29:41now and it would do the same thing.

29:43>> It would do the same thing with a VP8.

29:44There's YouTube videos. You can watch uh

29:46Peter Schumacher uh a great you great

29:49YouTube videos to watch him doing this

29:51where he can show the depths of light,

29:54the topography. And this where I'm so

29:56thankful we have this time because

29:57sometimes I don't have time to get to

29:59this. how wild this is, how unique it

30:02is, how unbelievable. How how I explain

30:04it is it is a natural effect. The shroud

30:07is of the supernatural event of the

30:10physical bodily resurrection of Jesus.

30:12And science proves that. We're not

30:15talking in some kind of theological

30:17Christian ease right now. I'm quoting

30:19physicists. And so that happens in 1976,

30:22which the whole world sees and says,

30:24"What is this?

30:27We cannot explain how a 2,000-year-old

30:29burial cloth has 3D information encoded

30:32in it that looks like a holograph. This

30:35is like something out of Star Wars.

30:36>> Yeah, no kidding.

30:37>> So, two years later in 1978, the Stur

30:41team, the Shroud of Tin research project

30:43comprised of 33 scientists. They go to

30:46Turan, Italy. They have approval to

30:49study the shroud for a little over a 100

30:51hours. There's pictures of them

30:53literally sleeping on CS. So they take

30:56pictures of it, they get pollen spores,

30:59they get all of the samples and they

31:02look at it and their minds are blown

31:04away. Barry Schwarz, who I talked to on

31:06the phone, he's now dead. He was a Jew

31:09and he came to believe that the shroud

31:10was authentically Jesus. No kidding. And

31:14it took him 17 years, Sean, after taking

31:17the photo in 1978. So he tells me this

31:20firsthand. He says, 'Jeremiah, we're

31:22down in the lobby of the hotel having

31:24drinks and just laughing, thinking, man,

31:27we got a free trip to Italy out of this

31:28deal. Give me 15 minutes in the

31:30scientific method and we will prove the

31:33shroud is a forgery. After 15 minutes

31:36and after one day, no one was laughing.

31:38They slept next to it. They said, "We

31:40can't explain this." But what got Barry

31:43and so Barry gives the TED talk on the

31:44shroud. So I called literally the TED

31:47talk on the shroud was given by Barry

31:48Schwarz. That's how I got my replica. I

31:51acquired my replica of the shroud from

31:52Barry Schwarz. God bless him. But what

31:54turned him and convinced him was the

31:58blood type. I just showed you that there

32:00is blood all over the shroud. Do you

32:02want to know what the blood type is?

32:04>> What's the blood type?

32:06>> TypeAB blood.

32:08>> Significance of that.

32:10>> The significance is if there was ever a

32:12priestly line of blood, it would be

32:14typeAB blood. It the fewest amount of

32:17people in the world have type AB blood.

32:19It's smitic. It's only 6% of the world's

32:21population. It's human blood. And what's

32:24even crazier is I have a chapter, but

32:27actually a chapter contributed at the

32:29end of the book by my friend scholar

32:30Doug Powell. We have the facecloth of

32:32Jesus, which I can get into if you want.

32:35It's in it's been in uh Oedo, Spain.

32:37It's called the Sudarium. That's another

32:39Greek term. Facecloth that wrapped the

32:42face of Jesus. Guess what the blood type

32:44is on the Sudarium that's been there

32:45since the seventh century?

32:47>> AB.

32:48>> AB blood. So, if you're a medieval

32:50forger, how are you going to know about

32:51AB blood? How are you going to be able

32:53to you would have to kill someone, Sean?

32:55You would have to torture them. The

32:57hematological reports, you're getting

33:00me, you're getting me all excited now in

33:02this conversation. The he gives me

33:03chills to this day because it does take

33:05your breath away. The hematological

33:07reports that have studied the blood, the

33:10peer-reviewed journals show that Jesus,

33:13who I believe is the man of the shroud,

33:15he was experiencing high levels of

33:17feritin. So much so that he was

33:19experiencing organ failure before he

33:21even got to the cross. His creatinin was

33:24off the charts. It is a miracle he even

33:27made it to the cross based on the

33:29demonic flogging that he experienced.

33:31And so all of this is there. There's a

33:34criminologist by the name of Max Fry and

33:37he takes pollen samples from the shroud

33:41and do you know what he finds out? There

33:43are 58 pollins on the shroud.

33:4738 of them are from Jerusalem. They only

33:52bloom in springtime during Passover. The

33:55rest of the 20 pollins follow the

33:58provenence of where the shroud has been

34:00for the last 2,000 years.

34:01>> Are you serious?

34:03>> Yes. According to Max Fry, so 38 of the

34:0658 pollins on the shroud only bloom in

34:09springtime. We know Jesus is crucified.

34:12It's the best established fact of the

34:14ancient world. on April 3rd, AD.33.

34:18Sean, if we cannot believe that Jesus

34:21was crucified under Roman crucifixion

34:23based on the sources and evidence, we

34:25shouldn't believe that Caesar crossed

34:27the Rubicon in 49 BC. Jesus death and

34:30resurrection is the best evidential fact

34:34established from late antiquity and the

34:37evidence bears that out.

34:40Wow.

34:42Wow.

34:47Man, that is when I I want to go back to

34:49the nuclear.

34:50>> Yes, please. How?

34:52>> So

34:57So how I mean they didn't lift the

34:59shroud up.

35:01It was a nuclear event in one one

35:0540th of a billionth of a second.

35:06>> Billionth of a second. Correct.

35:08According to the physics and then he's

35:09out, right?

35:10>> Where does he go? So this is what

35:12happens

35:13early Sunday morning. The women are

35:15coming to the tomb. We know from the Jet

35:17Propulsion Laboratory, again, this is

35:18April 5th. And what's cool about our

35:20broadcast this year, Easter Sunday

35:22happens to be April 5th. So we're

35:24talking about the exact day,

35:26>> man.

35:26>> 203

35:28AD33.

35:29>> Probably not a coincidence.

35:30>> I'm here to blow your mind, by the way.

35:32So I'm here to blow everyone's mind

35:33because the truth of the resurrection

35:35should blow our minds.

35:36>> So the women are going there. We know

35:38according to the Jet Propulsion

35:39Laboratory that sunrise on that Easter

35:43Sunday would have been a crisp morning

35:45in Jerusalem. The women are hurrying to

35:47the tomb. Why? For Jewish burial

35:49traditions, Jesus was buried with such

35:52haste. He dies at 3, sundown, 6:00 p.m.

35:56Joseph of Arythea and Nicodemus only

35:58have three hours to get his body off the

36:00cross, to get it buried, and to get it

36:03in the tomb. So, they did not have time

36:05to complete the bodily washing. That's

36:08why the women are going to the tomb

36:10Sunday morning. Sun rises at 5:43 in the

36:13morning according to the Jet Propulsion

36:15Laboratory on Sunday morning, April 5th,

36:18AD.33. They're going there very, very

36:20early. They're shocked because the tomb,

36:23which would have weighed 2,750 pounds,

36:26the the stone cover, I've seen a similar

36:29one right down from the King David Hotel

36:32where Mary Omni was uh buried. It wasn't

36:34good to be one of Herod the Great's

36:36wife. He loved to kill his wives. Uh one

36:38said it was better to be Herod the

36:40Great's pig than a member of his family

36:42because he was such a paranoid person,

36:44would kill his family. So rich tomb

36:46covers are like that. They're hard to

36:48move. The women uh of this day would

36:50have been 4'11, 90 lb. Remember, they're

36:53worried, Sean. Who will move the stone

36:55away for us? He's married. Jesus, it's

36:58kind of shocking. He's buried in a rich

37:00man's tomb, a new tomb. This was

37:01Arythea's tomb, Joseph's. They get

37:03there, the tomb has been cover has been

37:05blasted away. And I think that's part of

37:07what happened. I think the energy, this

37:10nuclear event that brought Jesus's

37:13physical body back to life just blew the

37:16tomb door wide open. And so Jesus

37:19emanates. I want to make this very clear

37:21because I I had to understand this. I'm

37:23I'm thinking to myself, okay, I'm I'm

37:25trying to understand. Does he raise from

37:27the dead and then like Lazarus have to

37:28take off his grave clothes? Like what?

37:31No. His body literally emanates through

37:35the shroud. So the shroud, we've

37:37actually created this in AI. The shroud

37:40would have just like just kind of

37:41collapsed and he would have looked down

37:43and seen the shroud. Walked right out of

37:45the tomb. And he starts with all what we

37:47call the appearance tradition. This is

37:50the eyewitness appearance tradition. So

37:52we have empty tomb tradition for Easter

37:55and we have appearance tradition. We

37:57have two lines of witness of the

38:00physical bodily resurrection of Jesus.

38:02Of course, he appears to the women

38:03first. And Sean, this is what I write

38:05about in my book. If you and I wanted to

38:08invent to invent a religion, if we

38:11wanted to write the resurrection story,

38:14the gospels, we never would have written

38:16it the way it's written because

38:18everything about it is humiliating and

38:20embarrassing. [laughter]

38:22>> Good point.

38:23>> I actually give a paper if the if the

38:25gospel writers invented the story of

38:28Jesus, uh, one that would have been

38:30culturally acceptable, they did a

38:32terrible job. So Jesus appears to women

38:35because remember Jesus will rehumanize

38:37people. This is the beauty of the

38:38gospel. Everybody watching right now,

38:41whatever you're going through, Jesus

38:42will rehumanize you. He will give you a

38:44hope that never dies. 1 Peter 1:3 says

38:47that because of the resurrection of

38:49Jesus, we have a living hope. And that's

38:51something I need right now. I need a

38:53living hope. I don't need something that

38:54I can vibe. I don't need anything that I

38:57I I need as a crutch. I need a living

38:59hope. And there's something about the

39:00fact of the resurrection that gives us

39:02hope. The Greek word for hope is elpace.

39:05It's used in the Greek New Testament a

39:06hundred times and it's always tied to

39:09the fact, not the feeling, to the fact

39:11of Jesus's resurrection. There's

39:13something about the resurrection that

39:15energizes us. So much so that 1

39:18Corinthians 15:58, after 57 magisterial

39:21verses on the resurrection, Paul says,

39:23"Therefore, be strong, be vigilant."

39:27Why? knowing that your labor in the Lord

39:30is not in vain because of the

39:31resurrection. Everything we do for

39:33Christ matters.

39:35>> That's beautiful,

39:37man.

39:39Where are we going from here? I'm I'm

39:42just Yeah, [laughter] you're just going.

39:44So, I'm I'm along for the ride here.

39:45>> Well, so the shroud, what I want

39:47everyone to know, 102 academic

39:50disciplines have studied it. And the

39:52reason that I say it is an itemized

39:55receipt of how much Jesus loves us is

39:58because financial terms are used Easter

40:01weekend. The scriptures say that we've

40:03been ransomed. It says we were bought at

40:06a price and owe what a price it was. The

40:08blood of Jesus. It says we've been

40:10redeemed. It says we were bought. These

40:13are all financial terms. I don't know if

40:15you remember, Sean, the last word of

40:17Jesus on the cross. We hear it in his

40:21native Aramaic tongue to telly. That's a

40:25financial term paid in full. And so when

40:29I look at the shroud, when I study the

40:33brutality

40:35of what Jesus did for you and for me on

40:38the cross,

40:40I am stunned. It's an itemized receipt

40:43of how much Jesus loves us. It brings to

40:47mind Romans 5'8. But God, and this is

40:50what people don't know because they

40:51don't know the Greek New Testament, it

40:53is written in the continuous present

40:56tense. Romans 5'8 says, "But God

41:00continues to show his love for us and

41:03that when you and I were sinners, he

41:06sent his best, Christ, to die in our

41:09place." That's the beauty of the gospel.

41:13Jesus is treated as if he lived your

41:15life and mine so God can treat us as if

41:18we lived the life of Jesus. Man, that's

41:21what we call grace. It doesn't make

41:24sense. It's too good to be true. And

41:27that's why it's good news. That's why

41:29it's the gospel. And so, what a

41:32demonstration it was. And what I want

41:34you to know, Sean, what I want what I'm

41:36praying per praying and was praying this

41:38morning is that I want you personally to

41:42have a new understanding of how much

41:44Jesus loves you because that's what it

41:47did for me. It took my breath away. We

41:49all need reminders. Does God really love

41:51me? I mean, I've sinned for the 7,000th

41:53time. You know what Paul said in Romans

41:557, the things I hate to This is what I

41:57printed on my golf balls, by the way. I

41:59do what I hate. I don't do what I want

42:01to do. I print them on all my golf

42:02balls. [laughter]

42:05Romans 7. But that's Paul's frustration,

42:07right? We We're still sinners. We need

42:10forgiveness and we need to be reminded.

42:13And if we're not careful, Easter can be

42:15so h it's another Easter egg hunt. Going

42:18to go to go to church. No,

42:21you have to be reminded of how much God

42:23loves you. And so I brought something

42:25that I want to hand you. Now, when I was

42:28at the World Economic Forum speaking,

42:30people were looking at me weird, and I

42:32was wondering why, and I didn't realize

42:35it. I had punctured my hand with the

42:37crown of thorns. So, I'm sitting here

42:39speaking, lecturing, and I have blood

42:41dripping down my hand.

42:42>> So, I want you to be careful. Okay.

42:44>> Thought you were going to say you had a

42:46[laughter]

42:47[gasps]

42:47>> you have all this stuff, and they're all

42:49wondering where your statue of Baffomet

42:51is. [laughter]

42:56We are so influenced by medieval

42:59Christian art. Unfortunately, the

43:01effeminite Jesus, the meek Jesus, the

43:04weak Jesus, the Jesus with no beard.

43:07He's not a Jewish Jesus. We don't

43:09realize how influenced we are by

43:11medieval Christian art. Jesus was a

43:14man's man. He traveled over 20,000 miles

43:16in his ministry. Probably weighed 180

43:19lbs. Physically fit man, 5'10" to 6

43:21feet. By the way, we have tombs with

43:24much taller men from the first century.

43:26So these people that at me of, "Oh,

43:28that's too tall for Jesus." No, actually

43:30in the tomb of Yohan, we have someone

43:32who's taller than than Jesus who was

43:34crucified. So in medieval Christian art,

43:37I don't know if you've seen this before,

43:39but we see this crown of thorns and it's

43:41like a wreath. It's like a sweatband,

43:43something you'd wear working out. And we

43:45think, "Oh, that's cute." No.

43:47>> The Romans wanted to humiliate Jesus.

43:51Not only is he crucified completely

43:52naked, but the scriptures tell us that

43:55they fashioned a crown of thorns. And

43:59this is a crown. This is a helmet. This

44:02is a this is truly a dome, a cap of

44:05thorns. And this is what puts it beyond

44:09all doubt. I'm an expert in Roman

44:11crucifixion. We have one exemplar of all

44:14the crucifixion examples that we have

44:16from antiquity. We have only one

44:18exemplar of someone that was crucified

44:21with a crown of thorns, and that's Jesus

44:23of Nazareth. These are three-inch

44:26Bethlehem thorns, Sean. They're

44:28extremely sharp because when they dry,

44:30they're as sharp as nails. So, I'd like

44:31to hand it to you, and I just want to

44:33describe it to you while you process it.

44:43The scriptures say that sacrifices and

44:46offerings you did not require but a body

44:48you prepared for me.

44:50And this is a replica which matches

44:55because we have 30 to 50 puncture wounds

44:58on the head and the scalp

45:00>> of the crucified man. I often joke with

45:04the people, yeah, try it on. See if it

45:05works. [laughter]

45:07It definitely does. Those wound those

45:09those are Bethlehem thorns as sharp as

45:11nails. And

45:13>> they are

45:14>> This is what was thrust on Jesus' head.

45:18I want to make sure and remind you,

45:19Sean, of the chronology. Jesus is first

45:22flogged. He's beaten. Well, I have the

45:25flagrum here. I'll show you 700 times.

45:28Then they put the crown of thorns on his

45:30head. Pontius Pilate stands up next to

45:33Jesus. Remember, his wife warmed him in

45:36a dream. I have nothing to do with this

45:37man. And yet Pilate says, "Eto in Latin,

45:41behold the man."

45:43And the crowd full of Jews began to

45:46yell, "Crucify him! Crucify him! Crucify

45:49him! They want him dead." Keep in mind,

45:52they had just seen Lazarus raised from

45:53the dead. This is why the most dangerous

45:56place you can get is to stop seeking

45:58truth. It's why I love your program. You

45:59You show us truth no matter the cost.

46:02They put this on him and can you imagine

46:06the humiliation, the pain

46:10and

46:11>> this is so nasty. I don't think

46:12humiliation would even be in my mind.

46:15>> But do you know what I see?

46:16>> This is so painful.

46:20>> I see love

46:23because it should have been my head

46:26in that crown, but it wasn't. I have

46:30four sons. I would die for them. I

46:33certainly wouldn't give them for anyone.

46:35And yet, the Bible says Jesus loved me

46:38so much when I was at my worst, God sent

46:41his best for me, who put his head in

46:43that crown that I deserved. And that is

46:46the beauty of the gospel.

46:49That is the beauty that the gospel sets

46:51us free of our sin. And we live on

46:54purpose for a purpose because we know

46:56that this life is not what we're living

46:58for. We're living for the new heaven,

47:00the new earth, the resurrected king.

47:06Man,

47:09tell me what you're thinking holding

47:11that.

47:13>> I'm thinking about how bad this would

47:15how painful this would be.

47:18>> And I know you know stuffing it on their

47:21head on his head. You know, like just

47:23>> you know violence, you know, pain. I

47:25want to get your impression of it.

47:30I mean, look at that.

47:32You know how much force they would have

47:34to do just to get that around your head?

47:37I mean,

47:44wow.

47:56Now,

47:58I have something very cool to show you

48:01because this is Easter weekend. I've

48:04just acquired this.

48:07This Sean is an actual crucifixion nail

48:11from the first century that was used to

48:14execute criminals of Rome.

48:17And when you hold it, I want you to do

48:19what I've done. I want you to put it at

48:21your wrist.

48:23These spikes are interesting because

48:25they were so valuable to the Romans.

48:28They were often reused. Be like if you

48:30could reuse bullets to kill someone,

48:32they would reuse these again and again.

48:34Far more valuable than the than the

48:36criminals they executed.

48:38It's amazing what a man can do to

48:40another man in violence. And when I look

48:43at this, I see an excruciating

48:46instrument. That's, by the way, that

48:48term excruciating Latin is from

48:50crucifixion, the cross. But I want you

48:53to notice something. I mean, can I hand

48:54you this? I want you to hold this one.

48:58>> As you're holding that, I want you to

49:00notice that it has a square shaft. So,

49:02without a doubt, that's first century.

49:04This was unearthed in Jerusalem.

49:06Jerusalem is the Syrian province of

49:09Rome. We have 21 different evidences of

49:12individuals being nailed to the cross.

49:15The top of the nail would have been

49:17square at one time, but it's been

49:18hammered so much into its victims, it's

49:20almost been circularized.

49:22But Sean, if you look closely, do you

49:24notice how there is a bend in the nail?

49:29Do you know why that is?

49:31>> Why?

49:33>> The Romans wanted to minimize movement

49:35but maximize torment on the cross. So if

49:39they were crucifying you, they would

49:41often adjust the nails while you were on

49:44the cross just to inflict greater pain.

49:47Geez. So after

49:49crucifying I don't know how many

49:51victims, this nail, this iron spike over

49:54time begins to wilt even under that

49:57pressure. I want you to put it against

49:59your wrist and just imagine. And I want

50:03you to let some scripture wash over you.

50:06Think about the messianic Psalm 22

50:10verse 16. They pierced my nails and my

50:13feet. David sees that prophetically a

50:16thousand years. Of course, this is

50:18before crucifixion was even invented. We

50:21see this in Isaiah 53. And you're

50:24holding in your hand a nail. And you

50:26know what struck me as I as I researched

50:28this? The nails that Jesus died with

50:33were probably they had probably been

50:35used on other people that did deserve

50:37it. These were nails that had been used

50:39to kill others, but he was not deserving

50:41of death. There's DNA on it. There's

50:44rust and his sinless blood. And here's

50:48the beauty of it. Those nails did not

50:51keep Jesus on the cross. His love for

50:54you and me kept him on that cross.

50:56>> What do you mean by that?

50:59Jesus could have called down a legion of

51:01angels at any moment, but he wanted to

51:06go to the cross. The Bible says in Luke

51:09that he set his face like flint to go to

51:12Calvary. This was no accident. Jesus

51:15came and he gave that message, the

51:17greatest miss message. I have come to

51:20seek and save all who are lost. He said,

51:23if I be lifted up, I will draw all men

51:26to myself. and he was lifted up in a

51:28torturous way. So no, the the the nails

51:32people think that kept the author of

51:34life up there, but no, it was really his

51:37love.

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53:09show.

53:14you know, out when you were describing

53:16uh all the all the the shroud to me, you

53:20talked about how they did the feet,

53:22>> right?

53:22>> Could you go through that now?

53:24>> Yes. This is very important. May I have

53:27it back?

53:28So,

53:31>> I love the Passion of the Christ.

53:32Actually, I just showed it to my

53:33triplets who are nine. Mel Gibson got so

53:36many things right, but not everything is

53:38correct in it.

53:38>> You know, the new one the new one's

53:40coming out next year,

53:41>> bro. They're filming it right now.

53:43>> Yes. So, and again, Hollywood

53:46resurrection.

53:47>> Yeah. And I I love that. And I love

53:48Dallas Jenkins, The Chosen. I have no

53:50problem with creative license, but

53:53people need to know that's just an

53:54approximation. They don't realize. And

53:56that's why this conversation needs to be

53:58shared. People need to know the

53:59brutality of what Jesus went through for

54:02us. There was no pedestal that he was

54:05standing on. My friend Scott Strippling,

54:07the archaeologist who endorsed my book,

54:09The Jesus Discovery, has proven and

54:12shown that the victims, forgive me for

54:15holding up my foot, they were crucified

54:18through the calccanous

54:21directly through it. So if the cross is

54:23in the middle, they essentially

54:25straddled the cross and the nail goes

54:28through the calccanous all the way

54:30through and pins him to the cross. How

54:34do we know this? We have in the Israel

54:36Antiquities Museum. We actually have the

54:39heelbone of poor old Yehohan John Johan

54:43John and Jonathan who was crucified

54:46under the reign of Pontress Pilot. They

54:48had to get him buried before nightfall.

54:50Sean, they couldn't get the nail out of

54:53the out of the out of the calccani

54:55calccaneous out of the heelbone. And so

54:58finally they just said, "Forget it. It's

55:00nightfall. just bury the nail with the

55:03heelbone and throw it in the ground and

55:05throw it in the tomb. And so in 1967, we

55:08unearthed the heelbone with a wood

55:11washer. I have a photo of it that we can

55:13show your audience right now that very

55:15few people in the world have seen.

55:17There's a olive wood washer showing that

55:20yes, they straddled the cross. So we're

55:22actually talking about four nails.

55:25talking about one, two, three,

55:29four. So

55:31>> through the heelbone,

55:32>> through the heelbone, through the cal

55:34calc cal calccanous.

55:35>> And that shows you what experts they

55:37were because our heels are very brittle.

55:40These men knew how to crucify you. The

55:42Romans didn't invent crucifixion, they

55:44perfected it. And so when Jesus dies,

55:48yes, he dies by exfixiation,

55:51but based on the hematological reports,

55:54he also died of a massive heart failure,

55:58which is interesting to think about the

56:00blood loss, heart failure. Father, into

56:03your hands I commit my spirit. No one

56:05takes my life from me. I give it

56:06willingly.

56:08But people need to understand the

56:09brutality of it. And this shows that

56:11there's something else because we can

56:14get so callous. Can I show you something

56:16else? Of course.

56:17>> I've just acquired these. Romans love to

56:20gamble. Gambling was a huge issue in the

56:23first century. And I don't know if you

56:25remember in the all four gospels record.

56:28So these executioners, they've got Jesus

56:30on the cross. Never mind it's about to

56:32go dark for 3 hours. They're about, you

56:34know, the the rocks are getting ready to

56:36cry out. An earthquake's getting ready

56:38to happen. The veil is getting ready to

56:40be torn into. All of this is lost on

56:42them. They're so jaded to crucifixion

56:45and so many Christians can get very

56:48desensitized to it. I want you to hold

56:50in your hands first century dice.

56:56Those are dice unearthed in Jerusalem. I

56:59now I'm not saying those were the dice

57:01used at Jesus's crucifixion, but these

57:03are dice from the first century. They're

57:06made from bone. We were at We were in

57:09the drive-thru of Canes the other day.

57:11my my triplets and my triplets and I and

57:13Jacks, my triplets said, "Dad, these

57:14stink." [laughter]

57:16I said, "Son, they're 2,000 years old.

57:18They're made from bone." But do you see

57:20the numbers punched on them?

57:21>> Yeah, they're they're

57:23>> exactly

57:24>> It's the same as today's dice.

57:26>> And so, I want you to think about that.

57:28The Romans who had just nailed Jesus,

57:31the author of life, to the cross, are

57:34sitting there gambling. You remember

57:35what they're gambling for? His clothes.

57:37They want his his tunic. They want his

57:39fine linen garment and they're gambling.

57:41They're casting lots with bone with bone

57:45dice just like what you're holding in

57:46your hand. And again, it reminds me of

57:50the cost of what Jesus went through and

57:53how for some people though, Sean,

57:56no evidence is enough for them to

57:57believe.

58:03Man,

58:08so

58:10Judas betrays Jesus. And uh I want to

58:14show you something else. This is very

58:16important. He's he is betrayed for the

58:19price of a slave. Judas 30 pieces of

58:21silver. Have you ever held Have you ever

58:24held a Tyrion silver before? A piece of

58:27Tyrion silver?

58:28>> I don't believe I have.

58:29>> So this is 14 g. This was also the

58:32temple tax. So I want to explain it to

58:34you, but I want you to hold it. This is

58:35a full 14 g shekele. Hold that in your

58:39hand. It's extremely valuable. That is

58:41not a replica. So uh there's two things

58:43that are important here. Number one,

58:46that was the currency of the temple. So

58:48if you and I were going to pay our

58:49temple tax, we would have to go change

58:51out whatever currency we had into Tyrion

58:54silver that was made entire. And we

58:56would have to pay our temple tax. Now, I

58:58don't know if you travel

58:59internationally, but like the worst

59:01place you can change money at is like

59:02the airport. You know, like the exchange

59:04rates rip you off. Well, that times a

59:06hundred is what was happening on the

59:07southern steps in Jerusalem. And so

59:09Jesus comes through and he overturns the

59:12tables because they're ripping everybody

59:14off. They're they're doing ridiculous

59:16currency exchanges. But that's the

59:19currency that you had to pay your temple

59:21tax in. That incidentally is also the

59:25silver piece, 30 of which were paid to

59:28Judas to betray Jesus on that Easter

59:31weekend.

59:33>> Wow.

59:34>> And you feel the weight of it. So, we

59:36know that this this was in circulation

59:38at the time of Pontius Pilate in the 20s

59:41AD.

59:45You know, I'm I'm I don't know where you

59:48want to go from here, but what I'm I'm

59:50interested in is what what was the what

59:55was the final thing that made you a

59:56believer in the shroud?

59:57>> The fi That's a great question.

59:59>> How how many years did you say you

1:00:00>> It took me three years to go from

1:00:04>> complete skeptic because I thought it

1:00:06was a Catholic relic, not an artifact.

1:00:10And it's very important. The shroud is

1:00:11an artifact and it is an artifact of the

1:00:14death, burial, and resurrection of

1:00:16Jesus. And nothing outside of the Bible

1:00:19does that, which is fascinating.

1:00:23>> Mhm.

1:00:24What took me from skeptic to believing

1:00:27that the shroud is authentic because I'm

1:00:29not irrational is the fact that the

1:00:32greatest scientific minds in the world

1:00:35cannot explain or replicate how there is

1:00:39an image in the shroud that coincide

1:00:43that coincidentally matches with

1:00:45onetoone correspondence the exact way

1:00:48that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified.

1:00:52Man,

1:00:54I mean you talked you had talked to a

1:00:56bunch of scientists though through that

1:00:57for that three years, right? So what was

1:00:59the fi what was the last thing that

1:01:01you're

1:01:03>> you you it was obviously a challenge for

1:01:05you to believe you know and so that's

1:01:07that's I mean I would like to talk about

1:01:10the whole journey but the final the I'm

1:01:12just curious the final thing what was

1:01:14it?

1:01:14>> So that's really interesting you should

1:01:16ask this. So my pastor Jack Graham

1:01:19challenged me to speak about what I was

1:01:21learning at our Friday morning men's

1:01:22Bible study and my son was there Justin

1:01:26and he really clued in because this kind

1:01:28of what we're talking about in your

1:01:29program right now evidence for our faith

1:01:32reasons to believe this is what's going

1:01:33to reach the whole next generation. They

1:01:35want to know tangible proof in in

1:01:38understandable terms why Jesus is the

1:01:41greatest evidence person have laid into

1:01:42antiquity. why Jesus death by

1:01:45crucifixion and resurrection is

1:01:47something we should believe is the best

1:01:49established fact of the ancient world.

1:01:50And I saw my son clue in on it. So

1:01:53whatever it took to, you know, my my

1:01:55greatest passion in life is passing on

1:01:56faith to my children, a true faith. I

1:01:58can't believe for them, but I can put

1:02:00them in proximity to believe with all

1:02:02the power that I have. So I share that

1:02:04day at the men's breakfast. And at that

1:02:07point, Sean, I was like, "No, I don't

1:02:08want to put my academic reputation on

1:02:10the line, but let me just share with you

1:02:12what I'm learning so far." I was hedging

1:02:14myself a little bit. Fast forward to

1:02:16just before the Hamas attack, uh,

1:02:18October 7. I'm in Jerusalem. Sean, I've

1:02:22been in more tombs than any guest you've

1:02:24ever had and probably any person you've

1:02:26ever met. I have filmed in more tombs

1:02:28than anyone else I know in the world.

1:02:31And I' I've filmed in the tomb of

1:02:32Lazarus and Bethany. I filmed in the

1:02:34tomb of the church of the holy supplr. I

1:02:36filmed in the garden tomb. I filmed in

1:02:38the tombs uh Emmas nicopolis. I filmed

1:02:41in all kinds of tombs. I know tombs. I

1:02:43know death chambers. I know how people

1:02:45die. I had a day off in Jerusalem. This

1:02:48is just days before the October 7

1:02:50attack. And I heard about this shroud

1:02:53museum that my good friends at Athonia

1:02:55put on at Notraam, not in Paris, at

1:02:57Notraam in Jerusalem. And I walk through

1:03:00the exhibit. Nobody's there. There's not

1:03:02a guide, but guess what? The Holy Spirit

1:03:05is good at his job, it turns out. And

1:03:08the Holy Spirit was with me. And I

1:03:11walked through the exhibit just like

1:03:13these things that I'm showing you. And

1:03:15do you know what it was?

1:03:17>> What?

1:03:17>> When I saw the helmet of thorns,

1:03:20it literally took my breath away. It was

1:03:23like everything I had learned, my PhD

1:03:25journey, everything I had learned about

1:03:27Jewish burial traditions, it all came to

1:03:30that moment. And I thought this is

1:03:32authentic based on the evidence. And it

1:03:34physically took my breath away. Wow.

1:03:41We say with the writers of the New

1:03:43Testament, what manner of love is this?

1:03:45There's no equation for it. And that's

1:03:47what was transformational. And so now

1:03:50this message, this itemized receipt of

1:03:53the shroud of how much Jesus loves us,

1:03:55we've taken this message around the

1:03:57world. If you would have told me then

1:03:58you'll you'll bring the shroud with you

1:03:59to WE. I had the shroud with me at W.

1:04:03And people are stunned. I had Oswald

1:04:05Bang, my dear friend, who's like one of

1:04:06the finest designers in the world. I

1:04:08said, "Oh, you like linen? You like

1:04:10garments? Let me show you Jesus's burial

1:04:12garment." [laughter]

1:04:15[gasps]

1:04:16>> Wow. What where was it found?

1:04:20>> The shroud itself. Yes. So, the

1:04:22provenence of the shroud is fascinating.

1:04:24And I have an I have a wonderful

1:04:26schematic that hopefully I can show in

1:04:28this uh in B-roll. Um the shroud is

1:04:31taken obviously immediately. Nobody

1:04:33would have left it. And I'm actually

1:04:35working right now on an article. This is

1:04:37this is interesting. This might blow

1:04:39your mind a little bit. Now this is

1:04:40speculative but we have to ask ourself

1:04:44in John 20 it says something very

1:04:48interesting. In John 20:8,

1:04:51John says that he saw and believed. By

1:04:55the way, 11 times in John 20, we're told

1:04:58people saw things. When we talk about

1:05:00faith, we're not talking about faith and

1:05:02nothing. Faith is only as good as its

1:05:05object. And this is what I love. Edone,

1:05:07uh, this Greek word to see. It's used

1:05:10186 times in the New Testament. And so

1:05:12I'm hoping that this broadcast opens

1:05:14people's eyes to the amazing enormity of

1:05:17the evidence of Jesus's resurrection. We

1:05:20have 45 sources for Jesus's life, death,

1:05:23burial, and resurrection with over 129

1:05:26facts. In Jesus discoveries, I show how

1:05:29we can build 65 facts about the life,

1:05:31death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus

1:05:33before we ever open our Bibles. I want

1:05:35people to I want to unlock this for

1:05:37people, the gravity and the enormity of

1:05:40it. And when I saw that, um, it all came

1:05:43together for me and it just took my

1:05:45breath away.

1:05:46>> Let me ask you a question. Do you think

1:05:48that

1:05:51Jesus wanted to leave that behind? God,

1:05:53that was the whole plan. Think

1:05:55>> I I do absolutely

1:05:57>> meant to be found.

1:05:58>> Yes. And this is what I'm working on. I

1:06:01believe that the shroud was still

1:06:03glowing in the tomb when it says that he

1:06:05saw and believed. I believe there was a

1:06:07resurrection

1:06:09residue on the shroud because what else

1:06:12did he see and believe? He says when he

1:06:15saw the linen cloths lying there, he saw

1:06:20and believed. If you read the whole

1:06:22passage, John 21-8, it's very clear.

1:06:25He's looking at the shroud and it says

1:06:28he saw and he believed. I believed he

1:06:31saw the image glowing. Who's he? John.

1:06:35John's gospel John remember there's a

1:06:38foot race the women in the appearance

1:06:40tradition you know Mary Magdalene she

1:06:42runs back she says the tomb's empty I've

1:06:44seen them you know come and see the Lord

1:06:46is alive I preached this passage three

1:06:49times at the holy supplr church when I

1:06:51film there and so John and Peter have a

1:06:53foot race to the tomb and I love this

1:06:55[laughter]

1:06:56right there in the gospels we're told

1:06:58that you know how every runner loves to

1:06:59tell you they're a runner have you ever

1:07:00met a runner that doesn't love to tell

1:07:02you they're a runner [laughter]

1:07:04I Think John was a runner because he

1:07:06said he outran Peter the tomb to the

1:07:08tomb. He's and then he's sitting there

1:07:09waiting for Peter before he goes in and

1:07:12he goes he went in and it's one of the

1:07:15greatest verses in all the Bible. He saw

1:07:17the shroud and believed. So you say,

1:07:20"Well, Jeremiah, did he not believe in

1:07:22Jesus before that?" Well, sure he did,

1:07:23but we can believe more. This this

1:07:25broadcast right now is strengthening

1:07:27faith and it's also reaching the most

1:07:29ardent skeptic right now because to not

1:07:31believe in the shroud, you have to not

1:07:34take into account 102 academic

1:07:36disciplines. I flew here on an airplane

1:07:39for this interview. I don't know who

1:07:41invented the airplane. I I don't know. I

1:07:42mean, I have an idea. I don't really

1:07:44understand aerodynamics, but man, I

1:07:46understood enough to get on board the

1:07:48flight and fly here. We have so much

1:07:50more evidence for Jesus's resurrection.

1:07:52What is it going to take for you to

1:07:53believe that he rose from the grave and

1:07:55commit your life to him?

1:07:58>> That's actually kind of why I'm asking

1:08:00is is

1:08:02>> I don't Are we supposed to have proof?

1:08:05Because it's all about faith, right?

1:08:06It's all about putting

1:08:08>> such a great question. Yes, we need

1:08:10proof. Are we better than the Let me

1:08:13tell you.

1:08:14I I guess what I'm asking is I I do I I

1:08:18almost feel like leaving proof behind is

1:08:21almost a contradiction.

1:08:23>> Yeah, it's not. And I'd like to tell you

1:08:25why. There would be no such thing as

1:08:28Christianity if those disciples did not

1:08:31see Jesus physically alive after he was

1:08:33dead. They had all given up hope. Luke

1:08:3624:21,

1:08:38remember Cleopus, we think it's his wife

1:08:40Mary, is on the way to Emmas, a 7mi

1:08:43walk, and they're they don't realize

1:08:45they're walking with the resurrected

1:08:47Christ. And they're dejected. And they

1:08:49say, "Ugh, we had hoped he was the was

1:08:51the was the Messiah, but he was just

1:08:53killed. We had hoped." They had given up

1:08:55hope. The disciples had scattered. No

1:08:58one expected the Messiah to rise from

1:09:02the dead. There could not have been a

1:09:04worse talking point to start a new

1:09:07religion than resurrection. No one

1:09:09believed in resurrection in the first

1:09:11century. Even people that say, "Well,

1:09:13Jews believed in it." They believed in a

1:09:15general resurrection like way out into

1:09:17the future. Um resurrection meaning that

1:09:20someday all Jews would be resurrected by

1:09:23the Messiah. They didn't believe in an

1:09:24individual messianic resurrection. No

1:09:28one saw that coming. 4Q285 which is a

1:09:31Kuman dead scroll. They talk about

1:09:34literally the Jews killing the Roman

1:09:36emperor. Their idea was that the Messiah

1:09:39would come and vanquish a corrupt

1:09:41priesthood, cleanse the temple and kill

1:09:44the Roman emperor. That was the Messiah

1:09:46that Jews were looking for in the first

1:09:48century. And I think this is why Judas

1:09:50fell out of the boat. Incidentally,

1:09:51nobody expected him to die on the cross.

1:09:53Remember Matthew 16:20? Jesus has just

1:09:57literally Peter has just said, "You are

1:09:58the Christ, the son of the living God."

1:10:00And Jesus is like, "That's right. I'm

1:10:02going to go die on the cross now." And

1:10:03Peter rebukes Jesus and says, "No,

1:10:06you're not going to go to the cross."

1:10:07And do you remember what Jesus says to

1:10:09Peter? No.

1:10:10>> He says, "Get behind me, Satan."

1:10:13He literally calls him Satan. Get behind

1:10:15me. It was always the point that he

1:10:17would go to the cross. So these people

1:10:19all give up hope. They go back to

1:10:21fishing. We need to make sure that our

1:10:23faith is not more pious than the first

1:10:25Christians. The first Christians needed

1:10:28proof to believe in faith is not faith

1:10:31in faith, Sean. It is faith in evidence.

1:10:35It is faith in the facts of the gospel

1:10:39and the person who completed our

1:10:42salvation for us. It is not. So I I

1:10:45really help pious believers that are

1:10:47like, "Oh, I just believe it because the

1:10:48Bible said, "Oh, well, you're better

1:10:49than all the first century Christians."

1:10:51They would have given up without proof.

1:10:53This is why the Bible says he showed

1:10:56himself to be alive by many infallible

1:10:59proofs. There's this word called incipit

1:11:02in Latin. You have a scroll over here

1:11:04that we're going to talk about soon. And

1:11:06you can see that, you know, I've got

1:11:08this beautiful title. I've got this

1:11:09beautiful cover to my book. It was

1:11:11designed. It kind of gives you an idea

1:11:12of what the book is about. Well,

1:11:13scrolls. You had to say what it was

1:11:16about in the incipit. The first two or

1:11:19three lines had to say what because

1:11:21otherwise I mean like that's 24 feet

1:11:23long next to you.

1:11:24>> That's 24 ft long.

1:11:25>> Yeah. Which we'll get to. So it's like

1:11:27bro, you got to tell me in the first

1:11:28sentence or two if I'm going to go to

1:11:30the effort to unroll this whole thing

1:11:31because it takes an effort. And in

1:11:33Luke's and Kippet, which just in Latin

1:11:35means here it begins. Remember Luke says

1:11:38I want to share with you I've put

1:11:40together the evidence of and he uses the

1:11:43word autotopes in Greek which is the

1:11:45word we get autopsy from. We were

1:11:48eyewitnesses of these things so that you

1:11:51can have a certainty to your faith.

1:11:54So that's what the kind of faith we're

1:11:56called to certainty based on eyewitness

1:12:00testimony and evidence. So, let's not

1:12:03think that faith is like something we

1:12:05drum up or we vibe or we, oh, I just

1:12:08need more faith, man. No, faith is

1:12:11knowledge. The more you know about God,

1:12:14the more you know about the facts that

1:12:16we're discussing for the resurrection,

1:12:18your faith will naturally become

1:12:20stronger. Does that make sense?

1:12:22>> Does does make sense.

1:12:23>> So, faith is only as strong as its

1:12:26object. I'm sitting in this chair right

1:12:29now. I believe it'll hold me up based on

1:12:31the evidence. That's all faith is. No

1:12:33one's going to be commended for their

1:12:35amount of their faith. So often I'm like

1:12:38the dad in Mark 9. Do you remember the

1:12:40dad in Mark 9 who looked at Jesus and

1:12:42said, "Lord, I believe. Help my

1:12:43unbelief." That was enough faith for

1:12:45Jesus to act. That's enough faith for

1:12:47anyone watching right now to say, "Lord,

1:12:49I believe. Help my unbelief." Jesus will

1:12:51act in your behalf because it's faith in

1:12:54him based on evidence. So that's why I

1:12:56have this ministry called Christian

1:12:58Thinker Society. Jesus said, "Love me

1:13:00with your heart. Love me with your

1:13:01soul." He quotes the shama. But only

1:13:04only can Jesus messianize shama. And he

1:13:07says, "Love me with your mind. Love God

1:13:10with all your mind." It's faith in

1:13:12evidence.

1:13:13>> Okay, that does make sense. What are we

1:13:16going Where are we going next? Well,

1:13:19where we're going next, my friend, is I

1:13:21do want to make sure I want to end I

1:13:24want to make sure since this is an

1:13:26Easter episode that you do understand

1:13:28the flagrum.

1:13:30Can I hand you this?

1:13:36>> This is a replica of a Roman flagrum.

1:13:40The scriptures say, and it's one of the

1:13:42most overlooked passages

1:13:46in the Gospel of John. And it says, "And

1:13:48Pilate had Jesus flogged."

1:13:51And because of our historical distance,

1:13:54we simply cannot appreciate or

1:13:57understand the cruelty, the demonic

1:14:00intimacy.

1:14:02That is raw hide and those are lead

1:14:04balls fastened to those three cords.

1:14:07That is a Roman scourge. And we know

1:14:09based on the evidence that he was

1:14:11scourged with two executioners.

1:14:13And that is when Jesus endures

1:14:17700 lashes. 700.

1:14:21We have counted on the shroud 372

1:14:25lashes, but we do not have the lateral

1:14:28sides. So we estimate, and by the way,

1:14:31every part of his body was flogged,

1:14:33including his pelvic region. There's not

1:14:35an area on his body that wasn't flogged.

1:14:37In fact, there's evidence that one of

1:14:39those balls came around the face of

1:14:43Jesus, the man who's crucified in the

1:14:45shroud, and literally blinded one of his

1:14:47eyes.

1:14:50>> Man, I mean, these things are sharp,

1:14:53too, where they put the holes through so

1:14:54they can get the leather through there.

1:14:56Then you have this wire holding this up.

1:14:58Was this wire? I mean,

1:15:00>> yes, it could have been bone, too. But

1:15:03we're confident that lead balls are what

1:15:05was used.

1:15:07barbells.

1:15:10>> Would these balls

1:15:12>> penetrate the

1:15:13>> Oh, yeah. They would puncture.

1:15:14Absolutely. And that's where you have

1:15:15the blood. And that's where you see

1:15:18bone. You could probably see bone.

1:15:21>> It's amazing. Many victims never even

1:15:23made it to the cross.

1:15:25>> Yeah.

1:15:25>> When they're flogged.

1:15:26>> And this is where we know Jesus loses

1:15:28one-third of his blood volume from that

1:15:30flogging. 700 lashes. And that's why

1:15:32Isaiah 53,

1:15:34which is right next to you, says, "By

1:15:36his stripes were healed."

1:15:39Isaiah sees that prophetically 700 years

1:15:41earlier.

1:15:56>> What do we have here? Okay,

1:15:59Sean,

1:16:01the great Isaiah scroll is right next to

1:16:03you right now. This is a factimile

1:16:05because the Israelis have not allowed

1:16:07anyone to see it since 1968, by the way,

1:16:10the actual thing until just recently,

1:16:13like within the last few days. So from s

1:16:15anyone who's been to Israel to the

1:16:17shrine of the book, and my good friend

1:16:19Aldo Reitman used to be the curator of

1:16:21the shrine of the book. So I know this

1:16:22cuz I've been there and knew the

1:16:23curator. The faximile, what you see in

1:16:26the shrine of the book is a faximile.

1:16:28This is a faximile that my friends at

1:16:30faximile editions produce in London. And

1:16:33it is I want you to touch it. It's open

1:16:36to Isaiah 53. That is column 44 of

1:16:40Isaiah of is of the book of Isaiah. And

1:16:43you're looking at chapter 53, which most

1:16:46Jews won't read in the synagogue because

1:16:48it's so prophetically accurate about

1:16:50what happened to the Messiah. That's the

1:16:52entire book of Isaiah found in Kuman

1:16:55cave 4. And this faximile from what I

1:16:59know what we have here at your studio

1:17:02can only be seen in the Vatican right

1:17:05now. It can be seen at the biblio the

1:17:09the national library in Paris. It can be

1:17:11seen at the museum of the Bible. So we

1:17:13have the same faximile they have at the

1:17:14museum of the Bible in DC. And we've got

1:17:16it right here at the Shawn Ryan studio

1:17:18right now.

1:17:18>> Holy cow. So the value of it is off the

1:17:21charts. It's 24 feet long. Of course,

1:17:24it's found at Kuman 2. It's 2. It

1:17:27antidates Jesus by 200 years. 250 years.

1:17:31And that is the oldest witness that we

1:17:33have to the book of Isaiah. Again,

1:17:35showing the stability of the text. Uh

1:17:38the next book that we have of Isaiah is

1:17:40a thousand years later later. And it's

1:17:42essentially word for word correspondence

1:17:45>> later.

1:17:46>> And this also shows how long books

1:17:48lasted. So this was at Kumra for 250

1:17:52years before Jesus. So these apostate

1:17:55Bible scholars who act like the New

1:17:58Testament would have just evaporated.

1:18:00One said, "Oh, within 20 years we would

1:18:02have lost the autograph." That just

1:18:03flies in the face of the facts. That's

1:18:05fake fake news. And so you read from

1:18:07right to left. To whom has our report?

1:18:11To whom has the arm of the Lord been

1:18:13revealed? And that entire column you're

1:18:15looking at is Isaiah 53.

1:18:22These are sewn together.

1:18:24>> Yes. With linen. And that, by the way,

1:18:27that's why that faximile I think is

1:18:28better than the one they have at the

1:18:30Israel Antiquities Museum at the Shrine

1:18:31of the Book. You can feel the linen that

1:18:34that binds them the parchment together.

1:18:38That amazing. So if you kept going, you

1:18:40would, by the way, if we kept unraveling

1:18:42it, we would get to Isaiah where Jesus,

1:18:45do you remember when Jesus preaches in

1:18:47his home synagogue in Luke 4? He goes up

1:18:50and he preaches Isaiah 60 and he says,

1:18:53um, you know, I've come to let cap to

1:18:55heal the help the oppressed. And he

1:18:58says, "Today this is fulfilled in your

1:19:00midst." And he sits down after reading

1:19:02Isaiah 61 1-2. He reads all of Isaiah

1:19:0661:11 and2 except the last verse, the

1:19:08day of vengeance of our God. He sits

1:19:11down and he says, "This is fulfilled in

1:19:12your midst." And in his own hometown,

1:19:15they want to kill him because they

1:19:16immediately knew that he was quoting

1:19:19Isaiah 61 claiming to be the Messiah. So

1:19:22if we kept unraveling, we're at we're at

1:19:24Isaiah 53, we would get to Isaiah 611

1:19:27and 2. Isn't that marvelous?

1:19:29>> It is

1:19:30>> extremely rare. Um, but I wanted to

1:19:33bring that for you to have just an

1:19:35appreciation of the incredible

1:19:38reliability and authenticity of what

1:19:41happened to Jesus and an appreciation. I

1:19:43mean, this is written Isaiah 700 years

1:19:46before Jesus.

1:19:50So, that's the great Isaiah scroll

1:19:56700 years before

1:19:58>> before Jesus. And then that scroll

1:20:00itself would date to 250 years before.

1:20:10>> This stuff is fascinating.

1:20:11>> Well, I'm just trying to up up the game.

1:20:13I've got to raise the stakes on any

1:20:15other guests you have after me. And that

1:20:16>> I think you've done it. [laughter]

1:20:19>> I'm scared to touch some of this stuff.

1:20:22[gasps]

1:20:22>> But I want our audiences to see. Do you

1:20:24realize that archaeology is

1:20:26Christianity's closest cousin? As I

1:20:28point out in my book, Jesus Discoveries,

1:20:31you know, whereas every other religion

1:20:32on earth, Islam included, avoids any

1:20:36interaction with archaeology,

1:20:38Christianity says, "Test our beliefs

1:20:40against history." If Jesus died and rose

1:20:43from the grave, everything he said is

1:20:45true and validated valid is validated in

1:20:48an absolutely devastating text, 1

1:20:50Corinthians 15:7. If Jesus did not rise

1:20:52from the dead, people should feel sorry

1:20:54for us. But Paul says in verse 20, "But

1:20:56he has risen from the dead." Remember

1:20:58Paul saw him on the way to Damascus. By

1:21:01by the way, can I mention something

1:21:02about the light factor? Uh back to the

1:21:04nuclear moment. Uh we were talking about

1:21:0734,000 uh billion watts of energy for

1:21:10the shroud image.

1:21:12Every time Jesus manifests himself in

1:21:14the New Testament, he manifests himself

1:21:16with brilliant light. Think about this

1:21:18for a minute. Transfiguration, brilliant

1:21:20light. Everybody wants to stay there.

1:21:22They want to hang out there. Paul gives

1:21:24his testimony. He's on the way to

1:21:26Damascus and he's going there to kill

1:21:28Christians. And do you remember he has a

1:21:30vision of the physically resurrected

1:21:33Jesus? And in the book of Acts, it says

1:21:35it was brighter than the noonday sun. Do

1:21:38you remember that evidential detail? I

1:21:41have stood in first century Romes and uh

1:21:43roads and filmed on them and it is hot.

1:21:46Okay, you're under the sun. It is

1:21:48bright. So he sees Jesus and Jesus is

1:21:52brighter than the noonday sun. In the

1:21:55book of Revelation, the Bible says in

1:21:57the new heaven and the new earth, we'll

1:21:59have no need of the sun because Jesus

1:22:01will give light to everything. So isn't

1:22:04that fascinating? It is.

1:22:05>> We get just a glimmer, just a signpost

1:22:08of that magnificent light that's left

1:22:11behind. And I do believe, Sean, that

1:22:13there is a new revelation tied to the

1:22:18emergence of technology as we get closer

1:22:21to the second coming of Jesus Christ. In

1:22:23other words, did God plan for this to

1:22:25happen? I think so. I mean, photography

1:22:28is not invented till the 1840s. Sakia

1:22:31takes a picture in 1898 and sees the

1:22:33shroud image in its negative. I've

1:22:37actually seen his camera. It was on

1:22:39these big glass plates. The exposures

1:22:41took 14 minutes and 20 minutes each.

1:22:43There was no power in the church, so he

1:22:45had to use generators for the flash

1:22:47photography of 1898. He was a lawyer. He

1:22:50was a Christian. He develops it. And

1:22:52never more appropriately, when he sees

1:22:54the face of Jesus in the negative, which

1:22:55is actually the photo positive, he goes,

1:22:58"Oh my god." Because he believed he was

1:23:01looking at the face of Jesus for the

1:23:03first time since the apostolic era. Wow.

1:23:07What? You know why? Where is the shroud

1:23:11now? Is it the Vatican?

1:23:12>> It's in Turin, Italy. It's not in in the

1:23:14Vatican. It's in Turan, Italy. It's in a

1:23:17reoquaryy. That's what they call it.

1:23:19This is kind of interesting. The same

1:23:21company in Turin that develops the

1:23:23materials for the International Space

1:23:26Station built the box, which we call a

1:23:28reoquary. It's a religious term that the

1:23:31shroud is out. So, it's un it's totally

1:23:33unraveled. It's in this reoquaryy that's

1:23:36about 15 feet long by about 4 feet wide

1:23:40and it's 99% argon gas 1% oxygen. And I

1:23:44have news. I have breaking news for your

1:23:47show. The image is fading.

1:23:51>> What does that mean?

1:23:52>> The image is going away.

1:23:53>> Why?

1:23:55>> Light and oxygen are its greatest

1:23:57enemies. And so this is why the Catholic

1:23:59Church is reticent. This is why they say

1:24:02they're reticent to show it to the

1:24:04public. This is why during the recent

1:24:06Catholic Jubilee, the shroud was not

1:24:08brought out. We had to look at a video

1:24:09of it for those that went to Turan. Um,

1:24:12the shroud has not been on display very

1:24:14often. The Catholic Church has never

1:24:17actually come out, and I've published

1:24:19this, this is accurate, and said that

1:24:21they actually believe it was Jesus's

1:24:23burial cloth. They're supportive of it

1:24:25to an extent. I asked to interview

1:24:28Archbishop Rapole when I was in Turin. I

1:24:31was turned down because I wanted to ask

1:24:33why aren't we showing this? I believe

1:24:35the shroud is the greatest scientific

1:24:38evidence that we have for the

1:24:40resurrection of Jesus.

1:24:40>> I mean, you know, the whole point is to

1:24:43>> evangelize.

1:24:45Why would you hide it?

1:24:47>> Why would you not let people

1:24:48>> if you didn't believe it was his? Then

1:24:50why would why would I mean definitely

1:24:52why wouldn't you expose it to the

1:24:54public? Right? And this is where I want

1:24:55to help correct people. People give the

1:24:58credit, the Catholic Church a little too

1:25:00much credit. The Eastern Orthodox Church

1:25:03protected the shroud for the first

1:25:04thousand years in Constantinople and

1:25:06beyond. The shroud did not come into

1:25:09Catholic possession until 1985.

1:25:13>> Are you serious?

1:25:14>> Yes, I'm dead serious. I publish all of

1:25:16this in the Jesus Discoveries. It was

1:25:18bequeathed to Pope John Paul II

1:25:22upon the death of the Seavoy family and

1:25:24they literally gave the shroud to the

1:25:27Catholic Pope to be the custodian of it.

1:25:30So the shroud technically does not

1:25:32belong to the Catholic church. It

1:25:35belongs to the pope himself. I happen to

1:25:37be there at Conclave which was a unique

1:25:40experience in turn because the shroud

1:25:43was essentially orphaned at that point.

1:25:45I met with Enrico who changes the gas

1:25:48twice a year in the shroud. Um, and even

1:25:52the blood is fading and so they're very

1:25:54concerned about that. Um, they're

1:25:56concerned about the image fading, but

1:25:59still why wouldn't you just bring it out

1:26:00and show it? I mean, we have all this

1:26:02technology now. We have lights that are

1:26:04I mean, there's ways we can do that. And

1:26:06this is where I'm so thankful that your

1:26:08show is bringing exposure. You have the

1:26:10greatest evangelism disciplehip tool on

1:26:13earth, the Shroud of Turin. And the

1:26:15public needs to see it. Anyone can do a

1:26:18chatgp search and say, "Show me the

1:26:21exact days that the Shroud has been

1:26:23publicly displayed." And they'll be

1:26:25shocked. It's fewer than 30 days over

1:26:27the last several hundred years.

1:26:29>> Fewer than 30 days in h in over a

1:26:32hundred years.

1:26:33>> Yes.

1:26:38So, I would encourage the Catholic

1:26:40Church and Pope Leo, who I signed a

1:26:42letter to, to bring it out, let people

1:26:45see it, let people make up their own

1:26:47minds, and not allow the Centro, that's

1:26:50the uh the group in Italy that uh that

1:26:55gives leadership to who sees it and who

1:26:57doesn't. So, I'm very concerned about it

1:27:00and I want it to be shown. And by the

1:27:02way, I want to say this. The shroud

1:27:04doesn't belong to the Catholic Church.

1:27:06It belongs to the unified church. It

1:27:08belongs to every believer in Jesus

1:27:10Christ. So yeah, it did not come into

1:27:13and Barry Schwarz made this clear. I was

1:27:15the editor of a journal, academic

1:27:18journal, which I summarize in my book.

1:27:20And Barry made that very clear. It is

1:27:22not a Catholic relic. So many people,

1:27:25especially what you might call

1:27:26Protestants or evangelical Christians,

1:27:29they don't want to know anything about

1:27:31the shroud because, oh, that's a

1:27:33Catholic relic. No, it didn't come into

1:27:35the hands of the Catholic Church until

1:27:36the 1980s. I don't believe the Catholic

1:27:39Church would have ever allowed it to be

1:27:40studied. Remember, it was still in

1:27:42private family hands in 1978 when the

1:27:46Shroud of Trin research project studied

1:27:49it. Man,

1:27:50>> the family that owned the Shroud allowed

1:27:52it. And that's not my opinion. That was

1:27:54Barry Schwar's opinion who I now believe

1:27:58having met everyone.

1:28:02So if you have this great tool, why not

1:28:03make it available?

1:28:07>> That's a great question.

1:28:10I mean, I wonder what else they're

1:28:13hiding.

1:28:14>> Yes.

1:28:15You know, and why not use it again? And

1:28:18so I I want to say that and there are

1:28:20amazing Catholic people out there like

1:28:22my friends at Athonia who have great

1:28:24exhibits who I partner with. I mean

1:28:25there are people out there trying to

1:28:27change this but they're all dying. Sean

1:28:31I mean I I spoke at the annual

1:28:34scientific uh it was at the Augustine

1:28:36Institute the International Shroud of

1:28:38Turan um uh conference. I was honored to

1:28:42be asked to speak and everybody there is

1:28:45much older than us. So all of these

1:28:48scientists are beginning to die and

1:28:50their knowledge is dying with it. So

1:28:52that's why I'm doing everything in my

1:28:54power to raise up this information.

1:28:56>> Thank you. Thank you for what you're

1:28:57doing.

1:28:58>> Thank you for letting me bring this

1:28:59information. I was a skeptic. I'm not

1:29:01now. And and I'm also thrilled that I'm

1:29:04not the only Bible scholar that's

1:29:05believing in it. My doctor, father,

1:29:07Craig Evans, who's the finest Jesus

1:29:09scholar in the English speaking world.

1:29:10He has 700 publications on Jesus.

1:29:13without a doubt believes in the

1:29:14authenticity of the shroud.

1:29:15Archaeologist Scott Strippling, who has

1:29:18the largest archaeological dig in

1:29:20Israel, without a doubt believes that

1:29:22the shroud is authentic. Paul Foster,

1:29:24the greatest Bible scholar in Britain,

1:29:25Bartman told me that, believes that the

1:29:27Shroud is authentic. What's weird though

1:29:29is so many Bible scholars are agnostic

1:29:32about the shroud because they're

1:29:33minimalists and they've never really

1:29:35looked into the data. They stay in their

1:29:38academic silos and they don't get out of

1:29:40it. And so I'm also speaking to all

1:29:42those Bible scholars out there. Come on,

1:29:44man. Bro, we've got more evidence for

1:29:46the resurrection. We have scientific

1:29:48evidence. And what's cool, so we have

1:29:50traveled Christian thinkers. We we've

1:29:51been on a tour. We we did the display at

1:29:54Prestonwood. Tens of thousands of people

1:29:56showed up at my church. So I thought,

1:29:58man, like the Braille system, if it

1:29:59works here, we ought to take this

1:30:00everywhere.

1:30:01>> So whether it's WE, whether it's Levik,

1:30:04Texas, whether it's Nashville,

1:30:05Tennessee, I'm going to be at a great

1:30:07church this weekend. um with 50

1:30:09artifacts. We never charge a dime for

1:30:11it. It's all free. People come every

1:30:14day. They can bring their friends and

1:30:15their neighbors. We have pop-up banners.

1:30:17We have a bronze statue of Jesus. Uh

1:30:20that is just beautiful. We have what you

1:30:23just saw. We have the actual shroud.

1:30:24Then we have the Isaiah scroll. We have

1:30:26other things as well. And people can see

1:30:28it for themselves. And I've seen

1:30:30children come to faith in Christ. And I

1:30:32have seen the jet propulsion scientist

1:30:35uh when we were at Greg Lory's church in

1:30:36Southern California walk through and say

1:30:38everything you said here is accurate.

1:30:40He's working on the Mars project by the

1:30:41way.

1:30:43[laughter]

1:30:45>> How many people have you seen this

1:30:47convert?

1:30:48>> Thousands.

1:30:49>> Thousands.

1:30:50>> I have been in the game in ministry for

1:30:52a long time and I I've been privileged

1:30:56to travel the world. As you mentioned in

1:30:58the intro, I've probably held more Bible

1:31:00manuscripts in my hand than 90% of the

1:31:03Bible scholars alive today. I worked in

1:31:06the Griffith Paperology Lab at the

1:31:08Asholian. We can't call it the Sackler

1:31:10library anymore because of the Sackler

1:31:12Oxycottton family. They took the name

1:31:14off it. So, but it was the Sackler when

1:31:16I was there uh back in 2009 to 12. Uh

1:31:20so, I mean, I've held great Bible

1:31:21manuscripts. I've seen, you know, what

1:31:23you're holding. I mean, it's so

1:31:24inspirational. Um, but nothing like the

1:31:27shroud has ever had the conversion rate

1:31:31ever that I've been part of. It is the

1:31:32greatest disciplehip tool. Meaning, if

1:31:35you've read the Bible a thousand times,

1:31:36you're going to learn more about how

1:31:37much God loves you. But if you're a

1:31:39skeptic who needs proof, like we all do,

1:31:41I wake up every day as a skeptic and I

1:31:43need to be reminded of God's love for me

1:31:45and I need to be reminded of the proof

1:31:46of the resurrection, the the many

1:31:49infallible proofs of the resurrection.

1:31:51You walk out of there utterly convinced.

1:31:54We were just at an event in Cincinnati.

1:31:56I'll never forget this man weeping,

1:31:58physically shaking, saying, "It's true.

1:32:01It's true. I never I never saw it. It

1:32:04It's a calculation and it all comes

1:32:06together."

1:32:10And this data has been suppressed. I

1:32:12want to make this very clear. Something

1:32:14I also learned, uh, my friend Tristan

1:32:17Cassablanca gave his life, you'll find

1:32:20this interesting, Sean, the British

1:32:22Museum suppressed the raw data of the

1:32:26carbon dating for 27

1:32:29years. So, the carbon dating is done in

1:32:331988. We do need to mention this because

1:32:35all the people will comment, well, what

1:32:37about the carbon dating? Mhm.

1:32:38>> No one should use the carbon dating from

1:32:411988 as a reason to think that the

1:32:45shroud is a hoax. So in 1988, carbon

1:32:48dating is done on the top left corner of

1:32:51the shroud. I showed you the top left

1:32:53corner of the shroud, the ryes fragment

1:32:56area. The scientist said, "Please date

1:33:00it, but whatever you do, don't use the

1:33:03edges. Don't use the fringes." I don't

1:33:06know if you could tell, even on our

1:33:07replica, we actually reinforced it with

1:33:10gaff tape because it's it's a shroud. It

1:33:13will fall apart. It needs to be patched.

1:33:16And so, we know based under the

1:33:18microscope that there are cotton

1:33:20fibbrals that are weaved in with the

1:33:22fine linen to keep it from just totally

1:33:25but that but it's fine linen throughout

1:33:26it. But the the edges they had to

1:33:28reinforce.

1:33:30Seven laboratories were supposed to do

1:33:33the carbon dating. Only three did.

1:33:35Zurich, Oxford, and Arizona. Why 7? We

1:33:38don't know. Then they get up on the

1:33:40chalkboard and they write 1260 to 1390.

1:33:43And one of the guys just sits there like

1:33:45this. Of course, he got a one of the

1:33:47guys got a $5 million endowed chair

1:33:49immediately. By the way, after this, you

1:33:51can look it up for yourself, very

1:33:53specious. Why did he get a $5 million

1:33:56endowed chair after 1260 to 1390?

1:33:59Somebody should find out. Someone should

1:34:00do a PhD on that. So they write that and

1:34:04then the British Museum suppresses the

1:34:06raw data of the carbon dating for 27

1:34:09years. And Tristan, my buddy, does the

1:34:12he's a French guy, amazing man, great

1:34:15scholar. He does the equivalent of a

1:34:16freedom of information act to finally

1:34:19get the d the raw data of to know like

1:34:22what did you test? How did you test it?

1:34:25And do you know what he published?

1:34:27He published and I want to be technical.

1:34:31The samples they used for the carbon

1:34:33dating are not homogeneous with the

1:34:35shroud itself.

1:34:40>> What do you mean?

1:34:42>> We don't even know if they tested the

1:34:44actual shroud. Sean,

1:34:45>> are you serious?

1:34:46>> Yes. Tristan Casablanca pointed this

1:34:48out. So, in a 2019 journal of

1:34:50archaeometry published in Oxford, people

1:34:53can go look this stuff up. This is not

1:34:56conspiracy stuff. Go be a reader, you

1:34:59know, learn from everyone, but don't let

1:35:00anyone think for you, okay? Go read the

1:35:03the 2019 Journal of Archaeometry where

1:35:06they say we can no longer take any

1:35:09value. There is no value to the carbon

1:35:11dating because it was so corrupted. It

1:35:14was so poison. They probably did. They

1:35:15used a patch sample that is not

1:35:18homogeneous with the shroud that we

1:35:19have.

1:35:20>> So again, if you're a thinking person,

1:35:22>> that's a demonic attack in itself. it

1:35:24is. Why? Why the suppression uh from the

1:35:27British Museum? Why does the Catholic

1:35:29Church not show the shroud more often?

1:35:32They need to. This is scientific proof

1:35:34of the resurrection. And so I think it's

1:35:37why every time now I mention the shroud,

1:35:39it goes viral. There is there is a

1:35:41hunger for this information. There is a

1:35:43hunger in the algorithm. People want

1:35:45proof and that's okay. And we have it.

1:35:51Why do you think when did we find out

1:35:53that the image on the shroud is fading?

1:35:56>> I just found that out in Turan last May

1:35:58when I went and met with Enrico who

1:36:01changes the gas. I have it on video.

1:36:04>> When did they figure this out?

1:36:05>> I didn't ask when, but he and again I

1:36:08haven't checked that. That was the

1:36:09reason that I was upset that they were

1:36:12not showing the shroud publicly.

1:36:15>> And again, I asked to meet with

1:36:16Archbishop Rapole and was declined an

1:36:18interview. So, I have this on my YouTube

1:36:21channel where Enrico says that the blood

1:36:23is fading, the image is fading. I have

1:36:25Bruno Barbaris saying there's a one in

1:36:27200 billion chance. I have Paulo Dezeros

1:36:30saying the 34,000 billion watts of

1:36:32energy. I mean, it's great stuff, but

1:36:34that's where I learned that the image is

1:36:36fading. And so, what are we going to do?

1:36:37Just let it fade away before we show it

1:36:39to the next generation?

1:36:41>> I mean, it just it's it's I find it odd.

1:36:44>> It's bizarre because, you know,

1:36:46>> but scientists will at me and be like,

1:36:47"Well, you have to know. You got, you

1:36:49know, oxygen and light are the greatest

1:36:51enemy. Well, oxygen and light are the

1:36:52greatest enemy of any artifact.

1:36:54>> Mhm.

1:36:54>> Should we just not show any artifact?

1:36:56>> It's but it's been here for

1:36:58>> Bizar years.

1:36:59>> Yeah. It's bizarre. And so it took a

1:37:03family, a wealthy family. By the way,

1:37:05the the Catholic Church did nothing for

1:37:07the Jubilee. Um and the family who

1:37:11they're incredible. Um they're an

1:37:14amazing family and I'm trying to

1:37:15remember their name. I apologize. I

1:37:16can't. They put together an amazing

1:37:18exhibit, a private wealthy Catholic

1:37:20family in the courtyard of Turan where

1:37:23they created a a virtual experience of

1:37:27the shroud because the Catholic Church

1:37:29didn't do anything for it.

1:37:31>> Explain why bones bone boxes matter for

1:37:34reading the New Testament.

1:37:36>> Okay. [laughter] I love bone boxes.

1:37:38Okay. Um if I don't know what this

1:37:39means,

1:37:40>> if you go to the if you go to the land

1:37:41of Israel, if you go to the Mount of

1:37:43Olives, one of the most famous spots,

1:37:44you're going to see the beautiful Mount

1:37:46of Olives. You're going to see the Dome

1:37:47of the Rock. You're going to see the

1:37:49Keedron Valley. You're going to see the

1:37:50Eastern Gate, which the MOS, which the

1:37:53Muslims, you know, walled up because

1:37:54they know that when Messiah returns,

1:37:56he's going to step foot on the Mount of

1:37:58Olives and go through the eastern gate

1:38:00and proclaim himself the Messiah as he

1:38:02should. So, there's bone boxes all over

1:38:04the Mount of Olives, 150,000. A bone box

1:38:07is a box that you put bones in. It's

1:38:10called an ouary. And the Jews practice a

1:38:14process which I point out because I have

1:38:16a whole chapter because we believe we

1:38:18have James the brother of the Lord's

1:38:21bone box. This is another evidence for

1:38:24Jesus outside the Bible. It says James

1:38:28the son of Joseph the brother of Jesus.

1:38:33No other bone box would say who your

1:38:34brother was. And this is inced. It was

1:38:37it was uh it was discovered in 19 excuse

1:38:40me in 2002 and of course made massive

1:38:44headlines. We actually have James's bone

1:38:48box. And so here's what would happen,

1:38:49Sean. U if you and I were brothers and I

1:38:51died, you would put me in a tomb and

1:38:54about a year later on the anniversary of

1:38:56my death when my flesh had decayed, you

1:38:58would collect my bones in a process

1:39:01called oileium. That's Latin that

1:39:03literally just means bone collection.

1:39:06and you would put my bones in our family

1:39:08bone box. Guess how long the bone box

1:39:10is? It's as long as your femur, the

1:39:12longest bone in your body. [laughter]

1:39:14Turns out the family buried together

1:39:16stays together. And so you would bury me

1:39:17with like dad and maybe a sister or

1:39:20brother. And that process is called

1:39:23ocelagium. And so burial was a sacred

1:39:26tradition in Judaism. And so that's why

1:39:28you have these bone boxes, these

1:39:30ashuaries is what they're called. I have

1:39:33filmed in uh the church, the teardrop

1:39:36church on the eastern side of the Mount

1:39:37of Olives with all of these bone boxes.

1:39:40I think it's ground zero for Matthew 27

1:39:42when other Christians came out of the

1:39:44tomb besides Jesus. And so why that

1:39:46matters for Jesus and for the New

1:39:48Testament helps us understand that Jesus

1:39:50was buried properly in a known tomb.

1:39:53People would have known where he was

1:39:54buried. They mourned the dead for seven

1:39:56days.

1:39:58Shiva uh they would worship. All first

1:40:00century tombs, by the way, look like my

1:40:02hand. Um, if you enter, you'd put the

1:40:04stone here. You would worship inside and

1:40:07then the niches are where the bodies

1:40:08would be laid. And we actually have

1:40:11James. Think about this. James was a

1:40:14skeptic of his brother Jesus. Do you

1:40:17have a brother by chance? I don't want

1:40:18to. I do.

1:40:18>> Okay. So, I have four sons. What would

1:40:21it take for you to believe your brother

1:40:22was the son of God?

1:40:25>> It would take a lot. [laughter]

1:40:26>> People always normally laugh when I ask

1:40:28this. I have four boys. I break up

1:40:31anarchy on a daily basis. None of them

1:40:33think that the other one's a son of God.

1:40:35And this was true in Jesus's day. In

1:40:39Mark 6, they literally think Jesus is

1:40:41insane. In Mark 3:21, they take offense

1:40:44at him. They actually accuse him of

1:40:46being a bastard, you know, a son of

1:40:48iniquity. In John 7:5, it explicitly

1:40:52says, "Not even his brothers believed in

1:40:56him." So here's what we have to ask

1:40:58ourselves. This is one of the proofs of

1:41:00the resurrection. How do people go from

1:41:03being hostile to Jesus to being willing

1:41:06to die for the belief that he physically

1:41:08rose from the grave? 1 Corinthians 15:7

1:41:11says, "And he appeared to James." I love

1:41:16this appearance. I could I could see it.

1:41:19I want to set it up for you. I could see

1:41:20it in my mind's eye. You know, James has

1:41:23always been humiliated by older brother

1:41:25Jesus. Crazy guy. I thought he was a

1:41:26messiah. Got crucified. And James is

1:41:29just working in the wood shop, you know,

1:41:31the stone shop. And all of a sudden,

1:41:33Jesus appears before him. Bro, bro,

1:41:38check out my side. They got me good.

1:41:41Check out my wrists.

1:41:43James [clears throat]

1:41:45becomes what Paul says, a pillar of the

1:41:48church. He becomes the pastor of the

1:41:51church of Jerusalem, which probably ran

1:41:5510 to 20,000 people. Josephus, a first

1:41:59century historian, tells us in AD62,

1:42:03James, the brother of Jesus in

1:42:06antiquities 20, dies believing his

1:42:09brother is the son of God. Why? Because

1:42:12he saw Jesus physically alive after he

1:42:15was dead.

1:42:17Man,

1:42:18>> that's why bone boxes are important. And

1:42:20we have James's bone box. And that's one

1:42:23of the top 10 discoveries in my book

1:42:24that bring us face to face with Jesus.

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1:43:43>> What other kind of discoveries do you

1:43:44have in there,

1:43:45>> dude?

1:43:47Magic texts. Jesus's name. Can we talk

1:43:50about healing and exorcism for a minute?

1:43:54>> Oh, yeah.

1:43:55>> Okay. [laughter]

1:43:57This is so cool. Um, I've never actually

1:43:59had This is really fun to talk about

1:44:01because, you know, you you write a book.

1:44:03Have you written a book before? You

1:44:04probably have. Like,

1:44:05>> no, I have not written a book.

1:44:06>> Okay. Well, you need to

1:44:09>> the whole time you'll wonder like, will

1:44:10anyone ever read this? Does anyone care?

1:44:13Well, this book is already made.

1:44:14>> No.

1:44:14>> Yeah. [laughter] Okay. We need to change