Female-Specific Exercise & Nutrition for Health, Performance & Longevity | Dr. Stacy Sims

0:00welcome to the huberman Lab podcast

0:02where we discuss science and

0:03science-based tools for everyday

0:05[Music]

0:08life I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a

0:10professor of neurobiology and

0:12Opthalmology at Stanford School of

0:14Medicine my guest today is Dr Stacy Sims

0:17Dr Stacy Sims is an exercise

0:19physiologist and a nutrition scientist

0:22and a world expert in all things

0:24training and nutrition specifically for

0:26women in addition to working at Stanford

0:28and with numerous professional a letic

0:30teams Dr Sims has authored more than 100

0:33peer-reviewed studies on exercise

0:35physiology she has not only evaluated

0:38existing protocols for nutrition and

0:39fitness that are specific to women

0:41versus men but she has also developed

0:44many new protocols that are now in

0:46practice with professional sports teams

0:48but that can also serve people who are

0:50generally interested in Fitness and

0:52Longevity and in doing so the general

0:54public the tools that Dr Sims shares

0:56with us today are applicable to Fitness

0:59to to changing your body composition and

1:02to overall health today we discuss how

1:04hormones and hormone Cycles impact

1:07nutrition and fitness needs specifically

1:09in women of different ages we of course

1:11discuss the menstrual cycle

1:13perimenopause and menopause but also

1:15female specific nutrition and training

1:17as it relates to things independent of

1:19hormones for instance we evaluate the

1:22evidence that women may not want to

1:24train fasted and the reasons for that we

1:27talk about how training might vary

1:29according to different phases of the

1:30menstrual cycle and we discuss how women

1:33can design nutrition and training

1:34programs that are optimized for their

1:36specific needs not just because they are

1:38women but because they are women of a

1:40particular stage of life and women with

1:42particular goals as you'll soon see Dr

1:45Sims is exquisitly skilled at explaining

1:48the human universals of nutrition and

1:49training that is the things that do not

1:51differ between men and women and their

1:53needs in terms of nutrition and training

1:56but she is also exquisitly skilled at

1:57highlighting the data showing that there

2:00are specific areas of nutrition and

2:02fitness for which women and men differ

2:04and women have specific needs so today

2:06you will learn what those are and you

2:08will learn how to apply those specific

2:10protocols such that by the end of

2:12today's episode You Will Be armed with a

2:14tremendous amount of new knowledge about

2:16the biological mechanisms and the

2:18specific dos and do Nots that can guide

2:20you towards your female specific health

2:23and fitness goals before you begin I'd

2:25like to emphasize that this podcast is

2:27separate from my teaching and research

2:28roles at Stanford it is however part of

2:31my desire and effort to bring zero cost

2:32to Consumer information about science

2:34and science related tools to the general

2:36public in keeping with that theme I'd

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6:5830-day trial and now for my discussion

7:01with Dr Stacy Sims Dr Stacy Sims welcome

7:06thanks our podcast and I put out a lot

7:09of content about Nutrition

7:13Fitness cold exposure heat exposure

7:17hydration topics that are very near and

7:19dear to your heart and for which you

7:21have a ton of expertise but for which

7:24you have an extra degree of expertise as

7:26it relates to females specific

7:30yeah so I'm excited to talk to you today

7:32because very often I will get questions

7:34in the comment section on social media

7:36or on

7:37YouTube was this study done in both men

7:40and women how does it differ for men

7:42versus women and on and on and I rarely

7:45if ever have answers but you have

7:47answers I have answers for you great so

7:51just to kick things off because this is

7:53a question I get really

7:56often fasting oh yeah inter mittent

8:00fasting y we need to distinguish between

8:02the two of

8:03course perhaps the most common question

8:06I get as it relates to males versus

8:08females

8:10is is intermittent fasting or

8:13time-restricted feeding as it's

8:14sometimes called an 8 Hour feeding

8:16window a six-hour feeding window a

8:1710-hour feeding window is that something

8:20that perhaps differs in terms of its

8:24impact and how well it works for men

8:30versus women yeah that's a short answer

8:33great yeah yeah um so I'll put some

8:36parameters around it right so if we talk

8:38about intermittent fasting that's where

8:39you have like the 20-hour non-feeding

8:42window or you're holding a fast until

8:45noon or

8:46after um and then we have

8:48time-restricted eating and that's the

8:50fancy way of saying normal eating where

8:51you're having breakfast and then you

8:53stop eating after or you don't have

8:55anything after dinner right so you're

8:56eating with your circadian rhythm during

8:58the day if we look at intermittent

9:00fasting where you're holding the fast up

9:02till noon or you're having days of

9:05really low calorie restriction we see in

9:08active women it's very detrimental

9:11unless you have PCOS or you have some

9:13other

9:14subclinical issue and the reason for

9:17that is we as women have more oxida

9:22fibers so we hear about all the things

9:24about fasting to be to improve our

9:26metabolic flexibility to improve telal

9:29length to improve parasympathetic

9:31activation but by the nature of women

9:34having more oxidated fibers we are

9:37already metabolically more flexible than

9:39men interesting yeah didn't know that um

9:42could you elaborate on more oxidative

9:44fibers what that is and how how it

9:46relates to metabolic flexibility sure

9:48sure so oxidated fibers are are muscle

9:50fibers that are more aerobic capacity so

9:53those are the ones that you you can go

9:54long and slow for a very long period of

9:57time because it uses a lot of free fatty

9:59acids you need a little bit of glucose

10:01in order to activate those free fatty

10:03acids so we look when a woman starts to

10:05exercise she goes through blood glucose

10:07first and then gets into free fatty acid

10:09use she doesn't tap so much into liver

10:11muscle glycogen which is I think another

10:14misconception that happens so when we're

10:16talking about fasting or fasted workouts

10:18trying to improve that metabolic

10:20flexibility it increases stress on the

10:22woman and so when we're talking about

10:24overall stress we're talking about

10:26cortisol increase and they can't hit

10:28intens high enough with no fuel to be

10:33able to invoke the post exercise

10:34responses of growth hormone and

10:36testosterone which then drop cortisol so

10:39from an overall stress perspective that

10:41fast did work out and holding that fast

10:44for a long period of time increases

10:47cortisol but then when we look from like

10:49a hypothalamic point of view and we're

10:51looking at how the brain reads it we

10:53know that there's one area of kisspeptin

10:55neurons in the brain for men but there

10:57are two for women so the two areas are

11:00distinct where One controls appetite and

11:03luteinizing hormone and the other one is

11:05looking at estrogen and thyroid so if

11:08you start having an exercise stress or a

11:11daily stress of getting up and going on

11:13with your day without fuel you perturb

11:16those kisspeptin neurons and

11:17downregulate them and so when you start

11:19downregulating them we see that after

11:21four days you have a a disregulation of

11:24thyroid we have a change in our

11:26luteinizing hormone pulse which is

11:28really important to maintain endocrine

11:30function and we'll hear this oh I've

11:32been fasting for so many years and it

11:34does great for me but the other side of

11:37the question is well how much better

11:39would you be if you were to actually pay

11:41attention to your circadian rhythm and

11:43fuel according to the stress at hand and

11:47knowing that you're going to Garner less

11:49stress that way and if we're really

11:51tying in nutrition according to that

11:54profile instead of following a fast we

11:57see better brain Improvement M ments as

11:59well we see more cognitive function we

12:01see less thyroid

12:03dysfunction and overall a woman does

12:06much better when we're not in that

12:08fasted State then when you look at

12:10population research that's coming out

12:12now they're showing in both men and

12:14women who hold their Fest till noon and

12:17then have an eating window from noon to

12:19maybe 6: p.m. have more obesogenic

12:22outcomes than people who break their

12:23fast at 8 and finished their eating

12:26window by 4:00 or 5:00 p.m. so it's

12:29coming back to the chronobiology of we

12:31need to eat when our body is under

12:32stress and needs it unless we have a

12:36specific issue like obesity inactivity

12:40PCOS or other metabolic conditions then

12:44we can look at using fasting as a

12:46strategic intervention to help with

12:48those modalities super interesting two

12:52questions is there a protective effect

12:54of starting the eating window and here

12:57I'm asking for both men and women

12:59starting the eating window at say 11:00

13:02a.m. or noon and ending it a little bit

13:04later so not a 6our eating window or 7h

13:07hour eating window but extending that to

13:098 or 900 p.m. under those conditions do

13:12you still see the obesogenic effect yes

13:15because we're looking at the way

13:17cortisol responds we know cortisol has

13:19lots of fluctuations throughout the day

13:22and it Peaks about half an hour after

13:24you wake up right so if you're having

13:25that quol Peak half an hour after you

13:28wake up but you're not eating

13:30then that is that higher Baseline

13:32sympathetic drive for women for men it's

13:34not the same so when we're looking at

13:37that obesogenic outcome the actual

13:40timing hasn't been tested yet to see how

13:42can we ex expand or contract that eating

13:45window for men but for women because of

13:48that cortisol

13:49Peak that right after waking up women

13:53tend to be already sympathetically

13:55driven so then they walk around more

13:57tired but wired and have a really really

14:00difficult time ACC accessing any kind of

14:02parasympathetic responses down the way

14:05where if you have something really small

14:06where you're bringing blood sugar up

14:08then it's signaling to the hypothalamus

14:09hey yeah there's some nutrition on board

14:11then we can start our day so again it

14:14has to look at that circadian rhythm and

14:16those hormone fluxes which people don't

14:18really either understand or talk about

14:21because all of our hormones flux through

14:22the day and so you have to look at

14:23where's the peak of cortisol how does

14:25estrogen flux how does lutenizing

14:27hormone flux progesterone all these

14:29things that have this tight interplay

14:32and the more we're doing the hormone

14:33research and the more we're

14:35understanding these perturbations and

14:36how important it is to fuel for it to

14:39stay out of any kind of low energy

14:40availability

14:42stance regular listeners of this podcast

14:44will know this but just to remind

14:46everybody a sympathetic state has

14:48nothing to do with emotional sympathy

14:49it's the sympathetic arm of the

14:52autonomic nervous system which drives

14:53more arousal and alertness and at higher

14:57levels stress sometimes called the fight

15:00ORF flight response parasympathetic

15:02being the other arm of the autonomic

15:03nervous system sometimes called the rest

15:05and digest arm of the autonomic nervous

15:07system they work sort of like a seesaw

15:09or a push pull pick your analogy in any

15:12case it sounds like intermittent fasting

15:16or time-restricted feeding unless it's

15:19very well aligned to the Circadian

15:20rhythm is not going to be advantageous

15:23for women that's what I'm hearing I'm

15:25also hearing that if a woman trains

15:26while fasted so in the non-feeding

15:29window so wakes up maybe has some uh

15:33hydration and trains that's going to

15:35further exacerbate the stress response

15:37in a way that's not going to be good

15:39exactly

15:40and I have to imagine that if she also

15:44is drinking caffeine in order to do that

15:47training because caffeine is a stimulant

15:50of the sympathetic arm of the autonomic

15:51nervous system that it will further

15:54exacerbate all these issues so this is a

15:59opener for me because I've had female

16:01training partners for years I don't eat

16:04until 11:00 a.m. I like to hydrate and

16:06cinate before I train in the morning and

16:08then I like to eat starting around

16:10noon several of them have hopped on that

16:13schedule with me some of them eat

16:15breakfast first some of them don't they

16:17do as they choose of course but now I'm

16:20thinking that's probably the worst way

16:23to go and it gets worse as you get older

16:26because if we're seeing as women are

16:27getting into par menopause which is in

16:29their 40s and we have more fluctuation

16:33of those hormones and an increase in

16:35Baseline cortisol anyway then when you

16:38look at fasted training it increases

16:41that cortisol drive and that sympathetic

16:43drive and because it's a point where you

16:47really need to polarize your training to

16:49get any kind of body composition change

16:52not having any fuel before a

16:53high-intensity workout puts them in

16:55moderate intensity they just can't hit

16:57the intensities they need to same with

16:59resistance training like you go in and a

17:02lot of women are now working on

17:03sessional rpe or rating perceived

17:05exertion where you go in and say okay we

17:08need you to hit an eight on this squat

17:10so you have two reps in reserve and a

17:12sessional RP of an eight well if they're

17:15not fueled then we are seeing trends

17:17that they're missing around two to 5% of

17:20that top load so they're not really

17:22lifting in that zone that they need to

17:24be in let's get um people sorry to

17:26interrupt let's get people up to speed

17:27on rpe because this is a term that's

17:29starting to um circulate more outside

17:32the physical um training community and

17:34to the broader kind of you know

17:36recreational exerciser Community which I

17:38consider myself part of UMO I mean I

17:41train regularly and half for years but

17:42I'm not an I'm not an athlete I don't

17:44get paid to train and I you know and so

17:46forth so rep repsen Reserve perceived

17:49effort maybe just um explain this I

17:52think probably 95% of our listenership

17:55has never heard these terms okay so if

17:58we're talking about about reps in

17:59reserve this is when you go in and if

18:02you say eight it means you have two reps

18:05in reserve so you finish your eight and

18:07you should be able to complete two more

18:09with a really good form and then you hit

18:11failure

18:13so eight repetitions in good form and

18:18the person doing the exercise could in

18:21theory if they really dug in there grit

18:24their teeth could complete two more

18:26repetitions in good form before hitting

18:27failure the inab to move the weight

18:29anymore in good form exactly okay but

18:32they're stopping at eight so they have

18:33two reps in reserve exactly and so we

18:36can correspond that with your rating

18:38perceived exertion so if we're saying we

18:41need you to hit an eight on our scale of

18:431 to 10 of rating perceived exertion we

18:45see it correlates with um that eight

18:47with two reps in reserve so it's a way

18:49of quantifying what you're doing in the

18:52moment for a squat or a deadlift or some

18:54other really heavy lift that you're

18:55trying to accomplish as opposed to

18:58looking at um say percentage of one

19:00repetition maximum yeah saying you're

19:02going to move 70% of your one repetition

19:05maximum for six repetitions seems like

19:07that's a great thing as well but it's a

19:10little bit more complicated because you

19:11need to know your one repetition maximum

19:13doing one repetition maximums can be

19:15dangerous if you're not skilled in that

19:16especially with compound movements like

19:18squats and deadlifts okay so is there an

19:22across theboard recommendation for most

19:24people that they should generally train

19:28their sets in good form to failure to

19:31leave a couple reps in reserve what do

19:33you suggest for let's say women but this

19:36could also pertain to men uh and then

19:38that also depends on the age of the

19:41woman so if we're looking at the

19:42reproductive year so you know 20 to 40

19:47then it doesn't matter so much you can

19:49periodize pretty much how normal

19:51periodization works with your mesocycles

19:53and your micro Cycles so you're looking

19:55at what you're doing across the few

19:57months what are you doing in the week

19:58are you lifting heavy power Based

20:00training but when we start to get to per

20:02menopause and we're losing all the flux

20:04of estrogen and estrogen is woman's

20:06testosterone the key driver for strength

20:08and power we have to look at lifting

20:11heavy so this is where we really turn

20:13women on to we want you to do something

20:16that is two reps in reserve three reps

20:19in reserve because your one rep max also

20:21changes depending on what kind of

20:23training block you're doing so you're

20:25finding that when you're talking about

20:26reps in reserve then it allows people to

20:29lift more on the day so we can get women

20:33to get into that strength and

20:35power-based type training rather than

20:37going let's lift to fatigue because then

20:39it might be 20 reps and that 20 reps

20:41doesn't invoke a big central nervous

20:43system response which is what we want

20:45it's more of that hypertrophy and muscle

20:47tearing you will gain some lean mass but

20:50not as much strength as if you were to

20:52invoke That central nervous system

20:54response and that becomes really

20:56critical as women get older because we

20:58need to def find that external response

21:00that's going to cause the same kind of

21:02strength and power adaptation that

21:04estrogen used to support

21:06interesting lots to talk about in terms

21:08of exercise but before we move on if the

21:13bad situation is a woman

21:16fasting drinking caffeine and training

21:19intensely but as you told us not as

21:21intensely as she would be able to

21:23otherwise what's the solution I imagine

21:25that solution involves ingesting some

21:27fuel MH what is a good example of a you

21:31know a

21:33pre-training um meal if you will and we

21:37could put some variation on that for

21:39people with different you know

21:40Tendencies towards omnivore or vegan or

21:42whatever uh but what is the timing of

21:46that meal relative to training that

21:48works best or and and I'm assuming

21:50there's some flexibility there yeah I

21:53mean like I'm the kind of person that

21:54gets up and is out the door within a

21:56half an hour to go do whatever I'm going

21:58to do so it's not like I'm going to have

21:59a full meal I've heard of people like

22:01you yeah mean meaning I tend to move

22:03slowly in the morning so I wish I could

22:05but the way my life is it doesn't work

22:06that way um so but I'm also one of the

22:09people that never really has an appetite

22:10till 11 o'clock okay so we're similar in

22:12that way yeah so how do you how do you

22:14square that so I make a double espresso

22:16at night and I put some almond milk and

22:19a scoop of protein powder in there so

22:21the almond milk is sweetened and usually

22:23it's unsweetened but sweetened for the

22:25carb and then the protein powder for the

22:27protein because because if I'm going to

22:29go do an ocean swim then I need some

22:31carbohydrate and protein on board if I'm

22:34going to just go to the gym then I'll

22:35probably just have the protein powder in

22:37the coffee yes I'm caffeinating but I'm

22:40also getting the calories for the

22:41hypothalamus and getting more

22:42circulating amino acids Abby Smith Ryan

22:45out of UNCC did some specific work

22:47looking at carbohydrate protein before

22:50and you know strength or cardio and

22:53found that if you're going to do a true

22:54strength training session you only need

22:56around 15 grams of protein before before

22:58you go to really help you get into the

23:03idea that yes you have some fuel on

23:04board and also increases your post

23:07exercise oxygen consumption or your

23:10Epoch so your resting metabolism stays

23:12elevated um giving you a better chance

23:15for Recovery post exercise as well if

23:17you're going to do any kind of

23:18cardiovascular type work up to an hour

23:21then you're adding 30 grams of carp to

23:22that so it's not a lot of food and it's

23:25not a full meal um other people are like

23:28I'm starving right before I go training

23:31then yes you can have your meal giving

23:33yourself about a half an hour before um

23:35but it doesn't have to be major food

23:38that we're talking about um but that's

23:41just enough to bring blood sugar up and

23:44and stimulate the hypothalamus to say

23:45yeah there's some nutrition coming in

23:47and then you have your real food

23:48afterwards you have your breakfast

23:49afterwards within 45 minutes as a

23:52neuroscientist I find it so interesting

23:54that at least some of what you're

23:56talking about with this pre-workout meal

23:58and perhaps most of it relates to how

24:01ingesting those

24:02calories impacts the brain protects

24:06those

24:07kisspeptin neurons we'll talk more about

24:09kisspeptin very interesting

24:11peptide as opposed to saying okay you

24:14need X number of calories because you're

24:16going to burn X number of calories I

24:18hate that conversation right which is a

24:19very different conversation um here what

24:22we're talking about is the neural

24:23aspects of being able to generate

24:25intensity also blunt cortisol and get

24:29the most out of training without putting

24:30the body into kind of a an Emergency

24:33State yeah yeah and the longer someone

24:36withholds food after exercise and the

24:38greater they stay in that catabolic or

24:39breakdown State the more the brain

24:42perceives it as being in a low energy

24:43state so the first thing to go is lean

24:46mass when you start telling a woman that

24:48you know if you're going to do fasted

24:49training and and or you're going to

24:50delay food intake afterwards while

24:52you're training because the first thing

24:55that goes is lean mass and it's really

24:56really hard for women to put on lean m M

24:59so once you start really nailing that

25:01and then saying look you just need 15

25:03gram of protein to really help and be

25:06able to conserve that lean mess it's a

25:08small simple fix people try it and

25:10they're like oh my gosh I feel amazing

25:12so it's small little things when you're

25:14working with the whole system because I

25:16get tired especially around Christmas

25:17time when you're reading all the

25:18magazines it's like two cookies means

25:21you have to walk for 30 minutes on the

25:22treadmill it's like it doesn't it

25:24doesn't correlate like that at all um so

25:27that's why I was like like I hate the

25:28calorie conversation because it's just

25:31not applicable right and it has its own

25:35kind of um elements of being laced with

25:37neuroticism about calorie counting and

25:39then that can drift easily into the

25:42realm of Eating Disorders I did an

25:43episode about eating disorders some

25:45years ago and as I was researching that

25:47episode um I learned that people with

25:50eating disorders women and men um

25:52especially anorexia become like calorie

25:56calculators their eyes in their brain

25:58just are constantly evaluating the

26:01caloric load of food and it can be um

26:03obviously very intrusive it's also the

26:04most deadly of all the psychiatric

26:06conditions so it's um that's a long way

26:09from hopefully what we're talking about

26:11here but but there's the opportunity for

26:13drift whenever we talking about calorie

26:14counting in and out we of course believe

26:17in the laws of thermodynamics and

26:19calories in calories out but I love what

26:21you're describing here as getting the

26:23brain in a mode that the brain and body

26:26are protected so that one can invest in

26:28that high-intensity exercise and get the

26:31adaptations that one wants but not send

26:33everything down this pathway of um kind

26:36just becoming a computer of you know how

26:39much am I exercising what did I burn

26:41what did I earn it's it's crazy it's

26:43crazy um as long as we're talking about

26:45food and food intake relative to

26:48training what is the suggested

26:50posttraining

26:52um window um in which one should either

26:57avoid or make sure they get nutrition um

27:00meaning how long does one have after

27:03let's say a resistance training session

27:05of about an hour seems to me that's what

27:07most people are doing if they're

27:08investing in resistance training maybe

27:11plus or minus a what 20 minutes yeah um

27:15and they're hitting those um

27:17high-intensity sets where they have

27:18maybe just one or two repetitions in

27:21reserve maybe going to failure on a few

27:22of those SES what do you recommend women

27:24eat after they train so we know that

27:27women who are in their reproductive

27:29years need around 35 grams of good

27:31protein highquality Lucine oriented

27:33protein within 45 minutes and we see

27:37that women who are per menopausal

27:39onwards are 40 to 60 grams because we

27:42become more anabolically resistant to

27:44food and exercise as we get older um

27:48when we look at like the recovery window

27:50for food there are definitely sex

27:51differences because we hear all the

27:53conversation of there's no recovery

27:54window it's you know it's old science

27:58but we look at the research of when

28:00women's metabolisms come back down to

28:02Baseline meaning that they have constant

28:04straight blood sugar levels versus men

28:07women it's within UH 60 minutes and for

28:10men it's up to 3 hours so when we're

28:12looking at the data that says there's no

28:15window per se for getting food in it's

28:19based on male data so when we're looking

28:21at women women we have this tighter

28:23window to stop that breakdown effect and

28:25start the

28:26reparation um so yeah it's like when

28:29we're talking about the protein intake

28:31it's really important not only to get

28:34that Lucine content up in the muscle to

28:36start the reparation and repair but also

28:39again to signal that yeah we're in a

28:42building State we're not holding that

28:45catabolic State and increasing all the

28:47repercussions that come with it so women

28:50should try and get 30 or as M much as 40

28:54maybe 50 grams of protein depending on

28:56their age m post training within an hour

29:00of training yep men seem to have a

29:03longer window they could wait an hour

29:05two hours maybe even three hours yeah

29:08before ingesting protein what about

29:09carbohydrate we look at mixed but for

29:12men it's more important because they go

29:14through their liver and muscle glycogen

29:16so much faster than women so when we

29:18look at women we want to get around3

29:21grams per kilo um of carbohydrate within

29:252 hours of finishing so we look at prot

29:28and people like well that's a big dose

29:29of protein how do I get it all in it's

29:32like yeah well you can look at how we

29:33mix all of these things you're also

29:35getting carbohydrate in with that so

29:37that's why I say you could have your

29:38next meal after your training session um

29:42yeah there's a time and a place for

29:43protein supplementation but if you're

29:45getting that real food in then you're

29:47also getting you know your magnesium and

29:50your potassium and your sodium and all

29:52the things that people supposedly lose

29:55and you're able to also repair a lot

29:57better

29:59as many of you know I've been taking ag1

30:01for more than 10 years now so I'm

30:03delighted that they're sponsoring this

30:04podcast to be clear I don't take ag1

30:07because they're a sponsor rather they

30:08are a sponsor because I take ag1 in fact

30:11I take ag1 once and often twice every

30:14single day and I've done that since

30:15starting way back in 2012 there is so

30:18much conflicting information out there

30:20nowadays about what proper nutrition is

30:23but here's what there seems to be a

30:24general consensus on whether you're an

30:26omnivore a carnivore or a vegetarian or

30:29a vegan I think it's generally agreed

30:31that you should get most of your food

30:32from unprocessed or minimally processed

30:35sources which allows you to eat enough

30:37but not overeat get plenty of vitamins

30:39and minerals probiotics and

30:41micronutrients that we all need for

30:42physical and mental health now I

30:44personally am an omnivore and I strive

30:46to get most of my food from unprocessed

30:48or minimally processed sources but the

30:50reason I still take ag1 once and often

30:52twice every day is that it ensures I get

30:55all of those vitamins minerals

30:57probiotics Etc but it also has

30:59adaptogens to help me cope with stress

31:01it's basically a nutritional insurance

31:03policy meant to augment not replace

31:05quality food so by drinking a serving of

31:07ag1 in the morning and again in the

31:09afternoon or evening I cover all of my

31:11foundational nutritional needs and I

31:14like so many other people that take ag1

31:16report feeling much better in a number

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31:20digestion sleep and more so while many

31:23supplements out there are really

31:24directed towards obtaining one specific

31:26outcome ag1 is found ational nutrition

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31:44again that's drink a1.com

31:47huberman at some point there was a lot

31:50of discussion about training fasted

31:53burns more body fat uh I think now most

31:57people accept that that's not the case

31:59that perhaps the percentage of fat as

32:03fuel is increased when one trains fasted

32:06but that overall in terms of loss of

32:09body fat it doesn't matter if you train

32:12fasted or you train fed correct okay I

32:15think um that can't be stated Enough by

32:18experts like you um that doesn't mean

32:21that if one prefers to train fasted or

32:23with a minimum of food in their gut that

32:26they can't do that I like to train

32:28fasted but I what I'm hearing is that

32:31women should probably ingest at least

32:33some protein high quality protein and

32:35maybe drink the protein in a protein

32:37shake yeah um form if they don't want to

32:39ingest solid food yeah I think the

32:42easiest way for people to understand the

32:44basic idea of what low energy is and how

32:47this affects men and women is when we're

32:49looking at um a Tipping Point for

32:52endocrine dysfunction for men we're

32:55seeing that Tipping Point at 15 calories

32:58per kilogram of fat-free mass for women

33:01it's 30 so when we're looking at

33:03Baseline calorie needs before you really

33:06get into that endocrine dysfunction when

33:08you're looking at those parameters you

33:10can see why men do better in a fasted

33:12state or a low calorie state but for

33:15women our intake and especially our

33:18carbohydrate needs are so much higher

33:21because we have so many other functions

33:25that are reliant on that kisspeptin up

33:28regulation or down regulation preferably

33:30up regulation um so when we're just

33:33talking the basic calorie needs and what

33:36we're seeing it's that dichotomy right

33:38there of 15 to 30 and when you start

33:40telling people that they're like oh okay

33:43I get it is that a biological aspect

33:45it's like well you could trace it all

33:47the way back where you know men went out

33:49to get the calories in most tribes and

33:51the women were home and it wasn't

33:53advantageous to be pregnant under low

33:55calorie intake that's why you have

33:57dysfunction when the calories are too

33:58low but you know you can also feed

34:01forward to modern day now and you're

34:03seeing that all this perturbance of

34:05hormone and the way we regulate hormone

34:08across the Circadian rhythm requires

34:10more calories for women than it does for

34:12men I know some men that basically don't

34:15eat all day and then eat one meal in the

34:17evening and they'll train in the morning

34:18that's inconceivable to me because

34:20within an hour or so of training I'm

34:22hungry uh which brings to mind what we

34:25mean when we say training uh I'm a big

34:28believer in people everybody getting

34:30ideally two or three resistance training

34:34sessions in per week and two maybe three

34:38cardiovascular training sessions per

34:40week that would be ideal yep um one

34:42could potentially do more probably not a

34:44whole lot less before you run into

34:46long-term health issues that you could

34:48offset but I think most people can fit

34:51those in and I'm very frankly delighted

34:55that nowadays there's such a push for

34:57women and men to resistance train that

34:59wasn't the case when I was growing up

35:00for you know I recall taking my sister

35:03to the gym for the first time and was

35:05like I think she was the only woman in

35:06the gym when we were in high school yeah

35:08except for a few female bodybuilders and

35:10she said well I don't want to look like

35:11that and I said well don't worry you're

35:12not going to look like that um but now

35:16you go to a gym and women are lifting

35:18weights men are lifting weights it's

35:19great it's terrific I've seen the

35:21evolution right when I was 16 one of my

35:24friends Brothers was a bodybuilder and

35:26he took us to the gym of like what you

35:28did with your sister and so both of us

35:30were like well we want to beat those

35:32guys so we got into weight training with

35:35them not to be bodybuilder but it's been

35:36like the Paramount throughout all of my

35:39athletic career used to be I'd be the

35:41only woman on the lifting platform and

35:43now it's like you have to wait because

35:45there's so many women on the lifting

35:46platforms I love it it's great yeah it's

35:48awesome as I mentioned before I've had

35:49female training partners and they they

35:51kill it yeah they um it's a lot of fun

35:54to have a um female training partner

35:56also because

35:58um not only is it cool to see the

36:01progress they can make really quickly

36:04which surprises them often you know I

36:06think a lot of women think that okay

36:08it's going to require external androgens

36:11or it's going you know and and what you

36:13pointed out that there are some barriers

36:15to women putting on mass quickly I think

36:17I've noticed that strength increases can

36:19come really quickly why is that it's a

36:22central nervous system aspect there's a

36:24lot of like if we look at the culture of

36:26how a lot of us grew up and I'm saying

36:29us like 45 plus right the women were all

36:33the 90s supermodels don't show muscle

36:36that kind of stuff so always been

36:37gravitated to cardio even now if you go

36:41to a gym and you're a new member you're

36:43signing up for a new member and you're a

36:45woman they'll say hey great here's all

36:46of our spin classes and our box fit

36:49classes they still doing that yeah and

36:50there's a cardiovascular machines a guy

36:53comes in like all right how much do you

36:55want to put on here are the lifting

36:57platforms all the you know the weight

36:59trainings at the back starting to see a

37:02shift with Boutique type gems but that's

37:04still the commonality there so it's

37:07still that little bit of taboo so when

37:09women start strength training they

37:12haven't been exposed to that kind of

37:14central nervous system stress before and

37:16the whole aspect of getting the nerve

37:20and the acetylcholine which are are

37:22little vesicles that you know hold the

37:24ability for the nerve to actually

37:27stimulate the muscle fiber all that gets

37:29trained really quickly so the more that

37:32you train it and the more muscle fibers

37:33that are recruited for contraction you

37:35see an increase in strength really

37:37rapidly and slowly building on that for

37:41increased muscle bulk because it takes a

37:45long time for women to put bulk on uh

37:48because the driver for strength training

37:51is that Central Nervous System um so

37:54it's great when we see higher doses more

37:56volume we aren't seeing huge hypertrophy

38:00we're just seeing really good increases

38:02in strength whenever somebody male or

38:05female is concerned about growing too

38:08big too fast um I always remind them

38:11that resistance training is unique among

38:15different types of exercise in that

38:16because of the blood flow to the muscle

38:18during the exercise session the soc

38:20called pump yeah you get a window a

38:23transient window but a window

38:25nonetheless of what the hyper could look

38:28like if you do everything else correctly

38:29in terms of recovery so provided that

38:32the um the size of the muscle during the

38:34training session is not aversive to you

38:37yeah you're okay you're good yeah um

38:39which is unique among you know training

38:42it's not like when you go running you

38:43get a sense of being much faster you

38:45actually get the opposite effect you you

38:47feel the burn in your lungs and and the

38:49pain of of hitting the wall of your

38:50limits and then hopefully if the

38:53adaptation takes place then you can push

38:54past that next time but with resistance

38:56train you get a liter Lally a physical

38:58picture and a and a sematic feeling for

39:01what that hypertrophy could look like

39:03yeah that's why on your physique

39:05competitions and bodybuilding

39:06competitions they're out the back

39:08pumping before they go on stage so we've

39:10been talking about training but we

39:11haven't really spelled out what you

39:13would suggest a

39:16novice perhaps an intermediate um

39:19resistance training cardiovascular

39:21training um program would look like in

39:24in Broad terms I realize we don't have

39:25time here to get into all the DET you WR

39:28this elere and refer people to those

39:31teric resources and the show note

39:32captions but um what would you like to

39:35see women doing and maybe we can break

39:38up the the age brackets because it

39:40sounds like this is something that um is

39:42resurfacing again and again here um

39:44women let's say 30 and younger women 31

39:48to let's say 40 and then let's say 41 to

39:5360 and then maybe 61 and on in terms of

39:57how many sessions of resistance training

39:59per week is it whole body training how

40:01many sessions of cardiovascular training

40:03and what sorts of examples could could

40:05you give yeah so if we're looking at

40:08that 20 20 to 30 year old a lot of times

40:11I really try to get them to focus on the

40:14whole movement aspect first so we phase

40:16them in same with older women phase them

40:18in learn how to move learn complex

40:20movements so that when you are going in

40:23to do resistance training preferably

40:25three to four times a week you can look

40:28at moving well and it doesn't have to be

40:30a long period of time if you're doing to

40:33failure which works really well when

40:35you're younger to increase strength and

40:37a little bit of hypertrophy you're going

40:39to have to spend a little bit more time

40:40in the gym so it might be 45 to 60

40:42minutes when we're looking at doing that

40:45four times a week you can add in a

40:48Sprint interval training at the end of

40:49one of those to get that super high

40:51intensity or you can look at putting in

40:54at the most two hit sessions from on

40:57separate days if you're training

40:59specifically for something so if I work

41:02with a lot of endurance athletes still

41:04and they're like well how do I fit it in

41:05it's like okay well we look at the

41:07Quality and how that fits into your

41:09training so if you're training for a

41:11marathon you're training for a triathlon

41:13or other endurance stuff you can take

41:16that high-intensity work and put it into

41:18your training program so ideally we look

41:21at three to four resistance training

41:23with really good movement when we're in

41:25the younger set with two high

41:28intensities when we start getting into

41:31our 30s we start having an eye to how

41:34are we actually doing that resistance

41:36training instead of just going and doing

41:38a circuit we're really focusing on let's

41:40do some compound movements let's look at

41:43doing some heavier work let's look at

41:46how we are periodizing so we're having

41:48you know six we blocks and we're

41:50building on those blocks because we want

41:52that base foundation so when we get to

41:54be 40 plus we can actually go and do our

41:57powerbase training if you're in your 40s

42:00you've never done resistance training at

42:02all then we take

42:06between two weeks to four months to

42:09really learn how to move well because

42:10there's a higher incidence of soft

42:12tissue injury and overall injury as we

42:15get into our 40s because of

42:17perturbations of estrogen and ideally

42:20when we get there we're looking at that

42:22around three minimum three resistance

42:25training with compound movement

42:28and either one Sprint interval or two

42:32Sprint intervals and one hit in a week

42:34and just to remind people compound

42:35movements multi-joint movements squats

42:37deadlifts uh chin-ups rows overhead

42:40presses bench presses Etc as opposed to

42:42isolation movements where only one joint

42:44is is moving yeah yeah and for everybody

42:49in all those age ranges that you

42:51describe are you suggesting they train

42:54the same muscle groups three or four

42:56times per week or do some sort of split

42:58where it's upper body lower body take a

43:00day off or upper body take a day off

43:01lower body take a day off whatever that

43:03what might work for them yeah what works

43:05for them if you're looking for short

43:08amount of time in the gym because of

43:10busy lives then you can split it if

43:12you're looking at okay well I can

43:14allocate an hour to an hour and a half

43:16in the gym then you can do total body

43:18with adequate rest um the key when

43:20you're younger is working to failure the

43:24key when you're older is working heavy

43:27interesting yeah so when we're looking

43:29at working to failure we're trying to

43:31get more of that lean mass growth with

43:33strength when we get older because it's

43:35so difficult to put on lean mass we

43:38really want to focus on the strength

43:40component because that becomes more

43:43important when we're talking about

43:45longevity because if you're looking at

43:47the strength component from a central

43:48nervous system standpoint we see it

43:50feeds forward into better appropri

43:53reception attenuation of cognitive

43:56decline and this is the other thing that

43:58you in Neuroscience would understand the

44:01sex differences in things like dementia

44:03and Alzheimer's there's some really

44:05interesting research looking at strength

44:07training and that power-based stuff when

44:09we're getting into our older ages

44:12because we get more neural growth

44:14patterns and more neural Pathways even

44:16some interesting literature about

44:18emphasizing some unilateral movements as

44:20people get older not just um dual limb

44:23movements or dual limb simultaneous

44:24movements you always want to train both

44:25sides of your body folks but um so if I

44:29understand correctly younger women

44:32should train to failure try and generate

44:34strength and hypertrophy as women get

44:37older they should emphasize more

44:39strength training leave some repetitions

44:40in reserve but train heavier yes it

44:43makes so much sense what you're saying

44:45yeah um because what we know about the

44:48nervous system as we age is that there's

44:51some atrophy or at least some weakening

44:53of neuromuscular connections and the

44:55upper motor neurons in the brain that

44:57control the neuromuscular Connections in

44:59the spinal cord out to the muscle yeah

45:01um there's something really sticky about

45:03this idea in terms of longevity that I

45:05don't think anyone else has ever said no

45:09the thing about it is men age more in a

45:10linear

45:12fashion whereas women we have a

45:14definitive point in our late 40s early

45:1750s where all of a sudden things go to

45:19where it's that per menopausal

45:22State and I can't tell you how many

45:24emails and DMs I get in a day from women

45:27who are like I'm 46 or I'm 47 I'm

45:29putting on body fat I don't know what's

45:31going on I can't sleep and then when we

45:33say it's per menopause they like what is

45:35that and so when we're looking at per

45:37menopause it is a

45:40huge change in the body because you're

45:43having less and less of your sex hormone

45:45circulating more and more an ovulatory

45:48Cycles means no progesterone or very low

45:50progesterone you're having a difference

45:53in the pulse of your estrad to those

45:55Flatline aspect effects and because

45:58every system in the body is affected by

46:00it this is why you see more soft tissue

46:01injuries like two of the biggest things

46:04that women who are in their 40s are

46:05going to ptas about her frozen shoulder

46:07and pler fascia those are two really

46:10indicative issues that are happening in

46:12Parry menopause so that whole section of

46:16mid to mid 40s to early 50s is a

46:19definitive aging point where I really

46:22tried to get women to get into the heavy

46:24lifting and get into the patterns of

46:26polarizing their training not putting an

46:29emphasis on zone two just really looking

46:31at how am I polarizing how am I

46:33affecting my central nervous system so

46:36that when they get into that one point

46:38in time of that perimenopause their body

46:41is already conditioned for the stress

46:43that's coming whereas men we see that

46:46kind of stuff happens in their late 50s

46:48early 60s so the soft tissue injuries

46:51the change in body comp comes at a later

46:54time so yes looking at how we're scoping

46:57our strength

46:58training definitely something to think

47:00about in a longevity Factor but for

47:03women it's a there's a better indication

47:05of the timing across the ages of when

47:07you should start implementing for men I

47:10think you have a better bandwidth of

47:11when you should start

47:14implementing for women who are not on

47:17hormone replacement therapy and we did a

47:20previous episode about per menopause

47:22menopause and hormone replacement

47:23therapy but if it comes up again and

47:24again today that would be wonderful

47:26because these are important underd

47:28discussed topics

47:29absolutely for women that are not on

47:32hormone replacement therapy who decide

47:35to train heavier maybe do a bit more

47:37training volume not train to failure

47:40they're making sure to not let their

47:41cortisol Spike too much by making sure

47:43they have some pre-workout nutrition

47:45some post-workout

47:47nutrition would they be wise

47:50to be very careful in how much

47:53cardiovascular exercise they add to that

47:56meaning

47:58there seems to always be this risk of

48:00overtraining and as you pointed out for

48:03various reasons cultural reasons

48:05historical reasons um around

48:08exercise I my observation is that most

48:10women sort of unless they know better

48:13default to cardiovascular exercise as

48:15opposed to resistance training so if a

48:18woman in her 40s late 30s to let's say

48:2250 is doing two to four sessions of

48:25resistance training workouts per week

48:28and they also really like cardio or they

48:30feel they want to or should do

48:33cardio should they be careful about how

48:35much cardio they're doing and is there a

48:37best form of cardio should they really

48:39emphasize the high-intensity interval

48:41training should they avoid zone two we

48:43should probably also Divine for people

48:45what zone two is if they if they don't

48:47already know um so I am notorious for

48:50slamming things like orange theory and

48:53f45 because they mark it specifically to

48:55that age group of women and it's not

48:58appropriate because it's not true

49:00high-intensity work when we're looking

49:02at women who are really trying to

49:05maximize body composition change and

49:07Longevity and unfortunately default to

49:10cardio because they think oh that's

49:11going to help change my body composition

49:13is going to help me lose body fat it

49:15doesn't is this things like Soul cycle

49:17as well okay I've never done any of

49:19these yeah um but I imagine there's a

49:21lot of spinning a lot of moving a lot of

49:23sweating and a lot of quote unquote

49:25calories burned emphasis yes there is

49:28but it's it puts women squarely in

49:30moderate intensity where they're so used

49:33to leaving one of those classes feeling

49:34absolutely smashed that when you tell

49:37them actually that training doesn't work

49:39for you because it's putting you in a

49:41state of intensity that drives cortisol

49:43up but it's not a strong enough stress

49:46to invoke the post exercise growth

49:48hormone and testosterone responses that

49:50we want to dampen that cortisol so this

49:53is why we have that hyperbole of women

49:56who are in their 40s plus shouldn't do

49:58high intensity work it's like well

50:01actually they shouldn't do moderate

50:02intensity they need to avoid that

50:04polarizing absolutely that's what we

50:06want we want true high-intensity work

50:09which is 1 to four minutes of 80% or

50:12more or if you're doing Sprint interval

50:15it's full gas for 30 seconds or less and

50:18you're doing that a couple of times a

50:19week you're not doing it every day

50:21because you need to have enough recovery

50:24to hit those intensities trly

50:27because those are the intensities that

50:29are going to give you those post

50:30exercise hormonal responses to drop

50:33cortisol when we're looking at women who

50:36are like oh well I love going out for

50:39hours and hours on my bike and I love

50:41you know doing my spin classes it's like

50:44okay but we need to look at the big rock

50:46here if you are looking for longevity

50:48and body composition change and

50:50cognition and all those things you have

50:52to polarize your training and that has

50:54to be the focus but soul food like I

50:57come from a long background of endurance

51:00I now love riding my gravel bike on the

51:02weekends for long periods of time which

51:04is not optimal for me my age that kind

51:07of stuff for all the things that I want

51:10to see improvements in but mentally it's

51:12great so we talk about going out for

51:15that long stuff zone two is at low

51:18conversation and that's fine for mental

51:21health and being out in nature but for

51:24Optimal Health and well-being we don't

51:26want to do that we want to look at

51:29resistance training as a bedrock and

51:31true high-intensity work to help with

51:34body composition change metabolic

51:37control insulin sensitivity brain health

51:40and dropping that

51:42cortisol I have family members who are

51:44women who are thin because they love to

51:49walk and they just walk a ton um and

51:52they eat well um and enough

51:56but they are resistant to resistance

51:58training and if they do pick up a weight

52:01it's usually some very light dumbbells

52:03do a few curls a couple tricep

52:04extensions and aren't really um leaning

52:09into the higher intensity work yeah I

52:13think this is pretty common and my

52:16observation is that it's common not

52:19because they couldn't be incentivized to

52:21do the higher intensity work but that

52:24learning the complex compound movement

52:27like how to squat properly or even leg

52:30press properly y um deadlift properly

52:33can be a bit overwhelming especially

52:35when one walks into a gym this is true

52:36for men too like all this stuff all this

52:38equipment all these bodies and these

52:39people look like they know what they're

52:41doing it's like if I were to go into an

52:42advanced like kitchen or or um Symphony

52:46and you know all these instruments I

52:47don't know how to play yeah so what's

52:50the best line of attack for somebody who

52:53really wants to overcome this uh

52:55longevity barrier because clearly

52:57resistance training proper nutrition

52:59work yeah and the cardiovascular

53:02exercise piece is a little bit more

53:03intuitive walking you do it faster

53:05you're jogging you do it faster you're

53:06running yeah yeah um the bike the soul

53:09cycle class Etc it's just it's easier in

53:11terms of the mechanics one can still get

53:14hurt but it's just more straightforward

53:16is there a way that in the absence of a

53:18budget for a personal trainer that

53:21somebody can learn how to do these

53:22movements and as you said ease into them

53:25over the course of even up to four

53:26months in a way that they can be

53:28confident that they're unlikely to get

53:30hurt yeah and really build up their

53:32capacity to do real work that can

53:34benefit them yeah this is where I love

53:37technology for one thing but if we're

53:39staying really basic I look at some of

53:41my family members and I've gotten them

53:43started with just body weight stuff or

53:46loading a backpack with cans to add a

53:48little bit of resistance so they feel

53:50comfortable in their own house and they

53:52might be doing lunges or squats um just

53:55keying them up of like where foot

53:56placement and knee and that kind of

53:58stuff so they're getting used to that

53:59kind of movement um I love Kelly

54:02starett's stuff with Mobility so show

54:05them like here's how we do some of the

54:07mobility to find where the sticking

54:08points are and then you can either

54:11direct them to some of the programs that

54:14are out there that um like Haley happens

54:17has some really good ones for women or

54:1940 plus so does

54:22um uh Brie and then Sunny Webster down

54:25in Australia

54:26you can send in a video of what you're

54:29doing and he can critique you and tell

54:31you things to do there are other

54:34programs like that too um so there's

54:36lots of ways of getting help if you seek

54:39it the personal trainer is very much a

54:43stumbling block for a lot of people and

54:47as much as I am not a fan of Planet

54:49Fitness I am a fan of the fact that

54:51they've made it really easy for someone

54:53to walk in who's interested in

54:55resistance training and they can go to a

54:57circuit one of the circuit things that

54:59they have at the back and they can start

55:01resistance training on machines which is

55:03another level up to learning compound

55:05movements so there's lots of ways of

55:07breaking that barrier to entry you just

55:09have to find the motivation factor of

55:11what's going to incentivize the person

55:13to give up their time walking every day

55:17and taking time to go to the gym or

55:19taking time to do garage based stuff

55:22that's going to improve their lean

55:24mass I'm a big fan of machines

55:27especially plate loed machines but

55:29machines just create the close to

55:33correct or correct Arc of movement yeah

55:37that um so for your size yeah yeah yeah

55:40exactly and to really spend the time

55:42adjusting the seat height adjusting the

55:45various um pins on the machine not just

55:48the weight in order to make sure that

55:49one gets the best range of motion I

55:51think this is something small but that

55:54is significant in terms of its impact

55:55people just pop down in a machine

55:57especially if you're working in with

55:58somebody and feel um especially

56:01beginners will feel pressured to move

56:03quickly and they won't adjust the seat

56:05height and so it's just all wrong for

56:06them and all it takes is a little bit of

56:08time to you know and ask people you know

56:10how to adjust the machines I'm also a

56:12fan of kettle bells in in the garage or

56:15light lighter dumbbells that you can do

56:18like thrusters or hang cleans or

56:20something like that to get the the

56:22momentum and movement feeling um because

56:24that's another good learning curve for

56:27people um so like I said there's lots of

56:29ways that you can Implement Things based

56:32on someone's intuitive like or dislike

56:35of resistance training so you've

56:37mentioned polarized training if I

56:39understand correctly this would be a

56:41woman doing three or four days of

56:43high-intensity resistance training for

56:4645 to 60 or 45 to 75 minutes per session

56:51and then at the opposite

56:53extreme maybe just walking a lot or

56:56jogging a lot so is that what you're

56:57talking about polarized training as

56:59opposed to um these other forms of

57:01training where it's designed to get

57:03people sweating like crazy breathing

57:06hard for long periods of time but

57:07neither putting them at the in the

57:09landscape of inducing muscle strength

57:12adaptations and hypertrophy adaptations

57:14nor really taxing the cardiovascular

57:16system enough to create you know an

57:18increase in longevity for instance when

57:21I talk about polarizing I look at the

57:23high-intensity strength like that's

57:24really hard on the central nervous

57:26system and then we look from a

57:28cardiovascular standpoint of doing true

57:30high-intensity work so the walking is

57:33more of the recovery so if you're going

57:36to go out and do something long it has

57:38to be very very easy if you are looking

57:42at cardiovascular and you want that big

57:44sweat then we are talking true Sprint

57:46interval training so what I have a lot

57:49of women do is a 20 minute lower body

57:52heavy set and then they'll go on the

57:55assault but and do as hard as they can

57:58for 30 seconds and then recover as much

58:01as they need to to go then do another 30

58:03seconds as hard as they can most people

58:06go oh I can do four or five of those

58:08after two they're completely gassed

58:10because it's that hard of work and

58:12that's what I mean by polarizing you

58:14have very very low intensity for

58:15recovery and super super high intensity

58:18for metabolic and cardiovascular changes

58:21is what we're after I'd like to take a

58:23quick break to let you know that the

58:25huberman lab team has launched a new

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58:30an expert in exercise science and Human

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58:36this new podcast is called perform with

58:39Dr Andy Galpin and it dives into topics

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58:44how to improve your cardiovascular

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58:50is an absolutely fantastic educator and

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59:01it out and give it a subscribe wherever

59:03you're watching or listening to podcast

59:05now again the podcast is called perform

59:08with Dr Andy Galpin let's talk about the

59:11menstrual cycle yeah and how that

59:13impacts training at the level of

59:15Psychology and Physiology meaning Mo and

59:18of course the two are linked they're

59:19inextricably

59:21linked for instance is there a

59:24particular phase of the m cycle where a

59:27woman should expect that motivation

59:30Andor recovery would be more

59:33challenging so this is the sticky point

59:35of recent science because we see all

59:38these research studies and met analyses

59:40that are coming out of the sports

59:41science literature saying that there is

59:43no effect of the menstrual cycle on

59:45anything when you look at that

59:46population it is specifically you menic

59:50women might have an a subject pool of 10

59:53if you're lucky 12 so this is women who

59:56have quote unquote normal menstrual

59:58cycles humanic supposedly ovulating so

1:00:01they have a definitive low hormone and

1:00:04high hormone phase and this is probably

1:00:06because these studies are being done on

1:00:07University campuses with with college

1:00:10undergraduate women yes exactly yeah

1:00:12which is a typically is in a given age

1:00:14range right okay and they look at

1:00:16performance meaning that one point in

1:00:18time and we know that psychologically

1:00:21you can perform at any point in the

1:00:23menstrual cycle unless you have

1:00:24something like heavy menstrual belief

1:00:27um when we're looking at a higher touch

1:00:29and looking not only from a molecular

1:00:32aspect but also pulling in mixed methods

1:00:34and looking at the qualitative we need

1:00:37women to track their own cycle and find

1:00:39their own patterns because we know that

1:00:42there are times where you feel like crap

1:00:45and you can't push intensity but that

1:00:48might be on day eight for one woman it

1:00:50might be day 18 for another from a

1:00:53molecular standpoint we know that theow

1:00:56hormone phase being day one is the first

1:00:58day of bleeding up through ovulation

1:01:00which is Midway through your

1:01:02cycle you have a greater capacity for

1:01:06pulling in and accommodating stress

1:01:09physical and mental stress so if we're

1:01:11looking at doing heavier loads we're

1:01:13looking at doing high intensity work

1:01:15we're looking at

1:01:16motivation then that low hormone phase

1:01:19is really optimal for trying to hit a PR

1:01:22trying to hit a new speed because you

1:01:24can take on that stress and you're

1:01:26immune system handles it your muscles

1:01:27handle it your core temperature

1:01:29everything handles it so for most women

1:01:34in the weeks before their period they're

1:01:36going to feel more robust except right

1:01:39up until the point of um of menstration

1:01:43or the inverse it is day one a bleeding

1:01:47up through midcycle that feel great yep

1:01:50the sticky Point comes not every woman

1:01:53ovulates and this is a thing when we're

1:01:55looking at will pop we have lifestyle

1:01:57stress we have nutrition stress we know

1:02:00that women for the most part have four

1:02:04to five an ovulatory Cycles a year so

1:02:07this is where when you're looking at

1:02:09that high hormone phase we can't say

1:02:12you're definitively in the high hormone

1:02:14phase so this is where we need women to

1:02:16track their own cycles and understand

1:02:19their own patterns because in an Ideal

1:02:21World we know that in the ludal phase

1:02:24this is where where we have the most

1:02:26change where we have a pro-inflammatory

1:02:28response from the immune system we have

1:02:32uh inability to access carbohydrate as

1:02:34well we have a higher sympathetic drive

1:02:37so there's lots of things in there that

1:02:39aren't so fantastic for accommodating

1:02:42stress so broadly speaking the ludal

1:02:44phase is associated with more

1:02:46cortisol more kind of Baseline levels of

1:02:48stress would it makes sense for a woman

1:02:50to try and offset some of that with a

1:02:52bit more nutrition during that phase a

1:02:54bit more perhaps complex carbohydrate we

1:02:57know that some complex carbohydrate can

1:02:58blunt some of the cortisol response

1:03:00maybe just even a little bit more

1:03:02attention to eating yeah absolutely I

1:03:05mean core temperature goes up but the

1:03:07whole goal of the ludal phase is to

1:03:09build tissue so this is where we're

1:03:11seeing a lot of shuttling of

1:03:13carbohydrate and amino acids to go to

1:03:15build that endometrial lining and that's

1:03:17the whole goal so yes you need to eat

1:03:19more protein you need to eat more

1:03:20carbohydrate but again the sticking

1:03:22point is did you ovulate or not so if

1:03:24you aren't aware of if you ovulate it or

1:03:27not you're tracking your own patterns

1:03:29then just be acutely aware that in about

1:03:32the week before your next period comes

1:03:34you really need to be amping up

1:03:35carbohydrate and protein um because

1:03:38that's going to help you hit intensities

1:03:40it's going to kind of level that playing

1:03:41field especially on days where you feel

1:03:43like you can really hit those

1:03:44intensities you feel great but then you

1:03:46go to do something and your heart rate's

1:03:48higher than it should be you don't feel

1:03:50that that you can hit those if you're

1:03:52offsetting it with some increased

1:03:54carbohydrate beforehand and you're going

1:03:56to hit it so it's again it's really

1:03:58dialing it back down to the individual

1:04:01now because we don't have enough robust

1:04:03research to make generalized ideas

1:04:06because of the Nuance of have you

1:04:09ovulated or not what are your ratios of

1:04:12estrogen progesterone in that ludal

1:04:14phase so when we bring it back down to

1:04:17the general pop it's like the best thing

1:04:19to do is to track your menstrual cycle

1:04:22over sleep over how you're feeling find

1:04:25your own pattern patterns and dial in

1:04:27your training in your days according to

1:04:29what your pattern

1:04:30is how hard should a woman push through

1:04:34the mental and maybe even physical

1:04:36resistance to train less or not train

1:04:39during a given phase of the cycle

1:04:41getting depends on how she feels what we

1:04:43can't rely on are things like heart rate

1:04:45variability because we know that changes

1:04:47with the autonomic nervous system change

1:04:48progesterone it's a good indication that

1:04:50you've ovulated because your heart rate

1:04:52variability tanks but it's not a good

1:04:53indication of what your body can do if

1:04:56you wake up I always say it's the

1:04:5710-minute rule you wake up and you feel

1:04:59awful and you're like uh I really want

1:05:01to do this workout but I don't know how

1:05:03it's going to go give yourself 10

1:05:04minutes if after 10 minutes you can't

1:05:07hit those intensities or you just feel

1:05:09horrible change it drop it down do

1:05:12something that's more recovery do

1:05:14something that's not going to be so

1:05:16taxing because we do have a limited

1:05:18amount of that stress Acumen of how much

1:05:21stress we can handle so if you're going

1:05:23to try to exert it all in a high

1:05:25intensity work out what do you have left

1:05:26over for the rest of the day and then

1:05:28that compounds because if you're always

1:05:30fighting it then you're going to

1:05:33increase this Baseline sympathetic drive

1:05:36because you're fighting the training

1:05:37you're fighting life so give yourself

1:05:40that 10-minute roll if it happens three

1:05:42days in a row that's okay because it's a

1:05:44very short period of time it's not going

1:05:46to last forever so a lot of women have

1:05:50this internal conversation of I have to

1:05:52do this and it's really based on some

1:05:55kind of external they think everyone's

1:05:58watching them but internally you don't

1:06:00have to if you give yourself permission

1:06:02you end up training better recovering

1:06:05better and getting better gains on the

1:06:07flip side if a woman is feeling

1:06:10spectacularly

1:06:11good should she just really push it as

1:06:14hard as she can or is there anything

1:06:16about the relationship between the

1:06:19hormone fluctuations of the menstrual

1:06:21cycle and feeling really really great

1:06:23that training hard can somehow disrupt

1:06:26the cycle and this is actually kind of

1:06:27the uh the old lore um probably myth I

1:06:31would imagine that high intensity

1:06:33resistance training is somehow

1:06:35detrimental to female hormone Cycles I

1:06:38don't think there's any evidence for

1:06:39that but I hear that from time to time

1:06:43um why do you think that myth came to be

1:06:45why do you think it propagates and what

1:06:47can we do to extinguish it if in fact

1:06:48it's not true it's not true we see it

1:06:51comes from a misstep and food intake and

1:06:54we also see that it's a cultural

1:06:56influence because if we think about how

1:06:58sport started it started as a way for

1:07:01men to demonstrate how powerful and

1:07:04aggressive they are and this is the

1:07:05original Olympics right there are no

1:07:07women allowed and as we feed forward

1:07:09into Sport and how it became okay for

1:07:12women to be

1:07:13involved at the high performance level

1:07:15if a woman walks in and shows any

1:07:17fallibility then she's immediately put

1:07:19on a lower stool right no you can't you

1:07:21can't play with the boys because you

1:07:23have a menstrual cycle you're bleeding

1:07:25you're a woman you're a delicate flower

1:07:27so women would walk into that

1:07:29professional sports space and be excited

1:07:31if they were a menic or didn't have

1:07:32periods or they trained hard enough and

1:07:35their period went away because then they

1:07:36were more like men and they could play

1:07:38with the boys if you start bringing up

1:07:40menstrual cycle in professional sport

1:07:43now as of the past about four or five

1:07:45years it's okay to talk about which is

1:07:47you know what

1:07:482020 so that myth of high-intensity

1:07:52resistance training causing issues with

1:07:55the menstrual cycle one it's a cultural

1:07:58Nuance for push back against women being

1:08:01in that space But then the reality is

1:08:04women weren't eating enough to

1:08:06accommodate for that stress which then

1:08:08feeds forward to low energy availability

1:08:10maybe relative energy deficiency in

1:08:12sport perturbations in all of our

1:08:15menstrual cycle hormones so it's not the

1:08:17act of the high-intensity resistance

1:08:19training it's the act of not fueling

1:08:22appropriately for it and then getting

1:08:25the okay to not have your period because

1:08:28yeah now you're you're in with you're

1:08:30training hard enough you've lost it

1:08:31you're more like a

1:08:32man wow um very interesting history

1:08:37there is it true then that if a woman

1:08:40maintains either um caloric balance with

1:08:44her basically eating enough to support

1:08:46her energy output or even a slight

1:08:49caloric Surplus that it's unlikely that

1:08:52um her periods will cease even if she's

1:08:54training very hard very often correct so

1:08:58it basically boils down to calories in

1:09:00calories out fuel for the task at hand

1:09:04because some people want to have a

1:09:06slight calorie deficit even in high

1:09:08training and if that deficit is at night

1:09:10away from training maybe 150 to 200

1:09:14calories then it's going to help

1:09:16perpetuate body fat loss not lean mass

1:09:19loss and it's not going to interfere

1:09:20with recovery it's the fueling in around

1:09:24the stress

1:09:26meaning they exercise stress it's really

1:09:28important but women have been so

1:09:30conditioned to not eat and not take up

1:09:33SP space to be small you know all of

1:09:35these sociocultural things that women

1:09:38are afraid to admit the fact that they

1:09:39want to eat and they should be eating so

1:09:42this is a a a Nuance within the fitness

1:09:45community that we're really trying to

1:09:47change and get the mindset around you

1:09:50train hard you eat well and your body

1:09:53responds in kind app tight body

1:09:56temperature and hormones are very

1:09:59tightly linked yes they are um far too

1:10:01tightly for us to uh disentangle all of

1:10:03those in a single conversation here but

1:10:05as you're describing the urgent need for

1:10:07women to fuel enough with the proper

1:10:09fuels to train hard enough to stimulate

1:10:12the correct adaptations that they

1:10:14need I imagine that the shift in

1:10:18appetite and body temperature that

1:10:20occurs across the menstrual cycle is

1:10:21also going to play into this meaning

1:10:23there will be phases of the menstrual

1:10:24cycle where women will be just naturally

1:10:27less motivated to eat enough

1:10:29carbohydrate enough protein in order to

1:10:32get the most out of their training what

1:10:34phases of the menstrual cycle are those

1:10:36um so that women can pay particular

1:10:38attention to make sure that they're

1:10:39fueling enough yeah um as estrogen

1:10:42starts to come up right before ovulation

1:10:45that estrogen surge really dampens

1:10:47appetite uh it also has a an interplay

1:10:51with our appetite hormones which is part

1:10:53of the reason why we don't have that

1:10:54great of an appetite it holds after

1:10:57ovulation estrogen dips you get hungry

1:11:00it comes up and people are like I have

1:11:02some Cravings which are driven by

1:11:04progesterone because your body needs

1:11:05more calories but at the same time with

1:11:07the elevation of estrogen you're not

1:11:10hungry you have cravings but you're not

1:11:12hungry interesting yeah so it's trying

1:11:15to disconnect those it's like your

1:11:17appetite is something that will come

1:11:20back of course once you eat but Cravings

1:11:22are more of a of that psychological

1:11:26capacity of yeah I my body needs more

1:11:29but I'm not quite sure what so to get

1:11:31women to understand what's happening

1:11:33across the board it's always coming back

1:11:36to Let's fuel appropriately for the

1:11:39exercise and even if you're not hungry

1:11:41if you are fueling appropriate

1:11:43appropriately at that point in time if

1:11:46you end up with less at least you've

1:11:47stopped that breakdown State the

1:11:49catabolic state so we don't get those

1:11:51perturbations in the hypothalamus that's

1:11:53my biggest concern for women is really

1:11:56taking care of that signaling from the

1:11:59brain to the rest of the body and if we

1:12:01have fuel on board even though we have

1:12:04appetite perturbations and if you go do

1:12:06a really hard workout in the heat you're

1:12:08not going to be hungry either but if

1:12:10you're having a cold protein drink after

1:12:13that hot workout you're taking care of

1:12:15that immediate need to shut down the

1:12:18signals that we need to break down

1:12:20things let's talk about one of the many

1:12:23third rails of um discussions online

1:12:27which is birth control yeah and we need

1:12:31to Define exactly what type of birth

1:12:32control we're talking about because

1:12:33there are so many different forms yes

1:12:36there are iuds there are the copper iuds

1:12:38there's the ring there's the you know

1:12:40let's talk about oral contraceptives

1:12:43that are designed to prevent ovulation

1:12:48so this is quote unquote the pill y so

1:12:50we're being let's for now limit the

1:12:51conversation to that so that there isn't

1:12:53confusion um share with us if you will

1:12:56your thoughts on these how they impact

1:12:58any of the things that we're talking

1:13:00about or anything else from that for

1:13:01that matter can we have another history

1:13:03lesson please all right um I just gave a

1:13:06talk at home to some young athletes on

1:13:09contraception because someone might be

1:13:12on the depot and if they're on it for

1:13:14more than two years they get bone

1:13:16mineral density loss so then the

1:13:18question of okay how does the oral

1:13:20contraceptive pill come up how does that

1:13:22affect things it's like well let's look

1:13:23at the history of it

1:13:25initially came from Stanford was funded

1:13:28by um Katherine McCormick from McCormick

1:13:31family and a feminist activist Margaret

1:13:34Singer but because they were women they

1:13:36couldn't get in the lab so they got a

1:13:38guy from Stanford to develop the pill

1:13:40and he's like you know what we need to

1:13:42put in a placebo week so that women feel

1:13:44like they're having a bleed so if we're

1:13:46looking at the three active pills and

1:13:49then the one sugar pill week it was by

1:13:52Design to make women feel like they are

1:13:54having control over their menstrual

1:13:56cycle and they would still have a bleed

1:13:59but it's not a true bleed it's a

1:14:00withdrawal bleed so this becomes the

1:14:02confusing point for people who are on an

1:14:04oral contraceptive pill they're like I

1:14:06get my period it's like no you don't

1:14:08because the idea of the hormones that

1:14:11are in an oral contraceptive pill is to

1:14:13downregulate your ovarian function so

1:14:16that you don't ovulate so you have a

1:14:18whole different hormone profile from

1:14:21someone who naturally Cycles so this

1:14:24depends on

1:14:25the type of oral contraceptive pill you

1:14:28are using for the most part monophasic

1:14:31is the one that's most prescribed so

1:14:33that means the three weeks of the active

1:14:35pill is the same dose of estrogen

1:14:37progesterone and then you have your

1:14:38sugar pill week or your withdrawal week

1:14:40and then you start again when we look at

1:14:43the repercussions of using oral

1:14:45contraceptive pill in active women

1:14:47there's a higher amount of inflammatory

1:14:50responses and oxidative responses so

1:14:53from a training standpoint no one's done

1:14:55the study yet but I would be interested

1:14:57in doing this of looking at how that

1:15:00impacts adaptation you do end up with a

1:15:03new Baseline of this when you start

1:15:05taking the pill but we're not really

1:15:07sure how that impacts adaptation we also

1:15:10look at the progestin component of the

1:15:12oral contraceptive pill because we have

1:15:14four generations of

1:15:16progesterone first generation was really

1:15:18high dose and has a lot of risk factors

1:15:20not really prescribed that much second

1:15:22generation is the most prescribed and

1:15:25this is the one that people just take

1:15:28it's in your IUD it's in your OC uh has

1:15:31the least amount of side effects and

1:15:33then we have a third and a fourth

1:15:35generation the fourth generation is

1:15:37primarily used for women who have really

1:15:39bad PMS or pmdd which is your um

1:15:42premenstrual dysphoria Disorder so

1:15:46significant mood issues because that

1:15:48progestin has a direct effect on a lot

1:15:52of the dopamine receptors in the brain

1:15:55as well the third generation is very

1:15:58androgenic so we see that in in some

1:16:01preliminary research that improves speed

1:16:04and Power by the second week of intake

1:16:07because it's accumulated so when we're

1:16:09looking directly at an oral

1:16:11contraceptive pill we can't make

1:16:13generalizations because you have low

1:16:16dose highd dose estrogen we see that a

1:16:1830 microgram dose increases hypertrophy

1:16:20but not strength because estrogen

1:16:22increases the satellite cell aspect ECT

1:16:26um so for my power in Olympic athletes

1:16:28Olympic lifting athletes that's a

1:16:30detriment because they'll put on muscle

1:16:32mass but no strength so we've had to

1:16:34look at changing their OC or getting

1:16:35them off for women who have breakthrough

1:16:38bleeding that higher incidence of or

1:16:40that higher intake of estrogen is is

1:16:42really beneficial so we look overall at

1:16:44how it impacts women from an athletic

1:16:48standpoint it's so variable in the

1:16:51hormone profile that we can't make

1:16:52generalizations we only look at the very

1:16:55high performance athletes and what's

1:16:57happening up there because that can make

1:16:59or break an athlete so from the general

1:17:02touch point we don't know enough like

1:17:04the beginning of this year 2024 there

1:17:07was a study that came out looking at

1:17:08changes in the amydala that happens with

1:17:12oral contraceptive use it's reversible

1:17:14in adults but for young girls we don't

1:17:17know because their brain is developing

1:17:19and unfortunately Physicians will pass

1:17:21out OC's as if it's candy OC's or a

1:17:24contracep contraceptives and do you

1:17:25recall what the direction of the effect

1:17:27was on the amydala for those that don't

1:17:30recall the amydala bilateral brain

1:17:32structure meaning one on each side of

1:17:33your brain uh literally means almond in

1:17:36Latin it's almond shaped and it's part

1:17:38of a larger Network associated with

1:17:40threat detection um sometimes it's

1:17:43described the locus of fear in the brain

1:17:45but it's involved in a lot of other

1:17:47things too both positive veilance and

1:17:48negative alance but nonetheless is part

1:17:50of the um threat detection system

1:17:54elevated levels of

1:17:56arousal which is why it's often

1:17:58discussed in the context of fear anxiety

1:18:01Etc it increased fear in women who were

1:18:05on the OC oral contraceptive pill made

1:18:08them less um willing to take

1:18:12chances and when they went off it

1:18:14they're like why couldn't I do that

1:18:17before so that's why they started

1:18:19looking at the Amala and when I say

1:18:21we're looking at young girls and again

1:18:23we don't know what's happening is it

1:18:24reversible in young girls that are put

1:18:26on it or not because of the brain

1:18:28structure changes that are happening um

1:18:31so when we talk about an oral

1:18:33contraceptive pill I want people to

1:18:36understand that it has a significant

1:18:38effect on the body not just reproductive

1:18:41we don't know enough about all the other

1:18:43effects so I have parents who say my

1:18:46daughter wants to go on the oral

1:18:47contraceptive pill she's having

1:18:48irregular periods she's a athlete we

1:18:51want to be able to control it and it's

1:18:53like if there's a issue with your

1:18:56menstrual cycle now it's still going to

1:18:57be there when you get off it so we have

1:18:59to look and see what what's going on

1:19:01here if you're looking to get on it to

1:19:03control your menstrual cycle why because

1:19:06we know that you can have an increase in

1:19:08your V2 Max and other an anerobic

1:19:12capacity when you are not on it so you

1:19:15have a better top end capacity when

1:19:17you're not being blunted by these

1:19:19hormones and then the other conversation

1:19:21is oh my skin it's like well they have

1:19:23really good Dermatology that can help

1:19:25you with that you don't have to go on an

1:19:27oral contraceptive pill but

1:19:29unfortunately GPS don't understand all

1:19:31of that and if a girl comes in and says

1:19:33I'm having irregular Cycles heavy

1:19:35menstrual bleeding I want to go on the

1:19:36OC here you go so it is a huge

1:19:39conversation still we had um I put it in

1:19:42the same category as menopause hormone

1:19:44therapy because there isn't enough

1:19:46research to address all the population

1:19:47needs and we see these big pendulum

1:19:50switches so before it was like everyone

1:19:52be on the OC and now it's like maybe not

1:19:54and then it was no one be on menopause

1:19:56hormone therapy everyone should be on it

1:19:59but we need to land in the middle and

1:20:01understand more of what's happening with

1:20:02these exogenous hormones is there any

1:20:04evidence that other forms of female

1:20:06contraception can be let's just say

1:20:09problematic for the types of things

1:20:11we're discussing today like the implant

1:20:13in the Depot or IUD copper IUD copper I

1:20:17and the Marino or you know your

1:20:19progestin laced IUD those are what a lot

1:20:23of my tactical athletes will use

1:20:25because it doesn't have a systemic

1:20:26effect on adaptation or inflammation

1:20:30mood any of those things um and it's a

1:20:33fit and forget so you can put it in for

1:20:35up to 3 to five years if you have a

1:20:37really heavy bleeding it really

1:20:39dissipates because the whole idea of an

1:20:41IUD is to thin the endometrial lining

1:20:44and so then you have autophagy that

1:20:45takes care of the endometrial lining so

1:20:47you don't necessarily have a bleed the

1:20:50copper IED is different because you do

1:20:52have really heavy bleeding for the first

1:20:54three cycles and then it attenuates

1:20:57before we got started today you

1:20:58mentioned some very

1:21:00interesting pioneering studies on

1:21:04evaluating menstrual blood itself as a

1:21:07window into some larger themes about

1:21:12what's going on physiologically maybe

1:21:14even psychologically um now might be a

1:21:17good time seg to uh just touch into that

1:21:19we can always return to it again later

1:21:21but let me just ask it um more directly

1:21:23what are some things that can be

1:21:25measured directly from menstrual

1:21:28blood that are informative for women and

1:21:32it sounds like there's a new generation

1:21:33of at home tests that might be

1:21:35interesting and informative for them to

1:21:37think about yeah well if you think about

1:21:40menstrual fluid everyone thinks about it

1:21:42as a discard product but it's a very

1:21:44good indicator of what's Happening from

1:21:47an endocrine standpoint gives a really

1:21:49good indication of what's Happening from

1:21:51an endometrial standpoint so if you're

1:21:53looking at all the cyto and the proteins

1:21:56and the tissue that comes from it it's a

1:21:59huge indicator that's naturally

1:22:02discharged that we're now looking at for

1:22:06determining HPV do you have it or not

1:22:09what about proteins for PCOS can we

1:22:12really identify PCOS or endometriosis

1:22:15can we talk about PCOS for a moment most

1:22:17people have heard of it by now but

1:22:18polycystic ovarian syndrome It's

1:22:20associated with typically elevated

1:22:23androgens um it's becoming more and more

1:22:25common or perhaps detected more based on

1:22:29better detection methods I don't know

1:22:31which um the prevalence of PCOS seems to

1:22:35be very very high it does and I think

1:22:38it's a combination of both uh we also

1:22:41see some rebound PCOS that happens when

1:22:43someone gets off the oral contraceptive

1:22:45pill it's not necessarily true pcus

1:22:49because what's happening now your

1:22:51ovaries are producing eggs m that have

1:22:54been downregulated for so long so under

1:22:57ultrasound it might look like PCOS but

1:22:59it's not necessarily true indication the

1:23:02other is more and more women are

1:23:04starting to eat more and so they're

1:23:06coming out of low energy availability if

1:23:07you have more carbohydrate you end up

1:23:09with greater folicular stimulation which

1:23:11also shows up as PCOS so the true PCOS

1:23:16yes there is a high incidence from a

1:23:18reporting standpoint but is it that

1:23:20rebound where it's not having all the

1:23:22androgenetic changes that's still kind

1:23:25of up in the air at the moment um but it

1:23:28is a big concern for women because it is

1:23:30an indication that something's going on

1:23:32and they might have some fertility

1:23:34issues uh we see a really high incidence

1:23:37of PCOS in Olympic level athletes

1:23:40because of the higher androgenic aspect

1:23:42of PCOS so better recovery time a little

1:23:45bit higher Baseline

1:23:46testosterone um so yeah it's a

1:23:49population spec specificity as well in

1:23:52the 80s and 90s there was a lot of

1:23:54excitement in the kind of

1:23:57neurobehavioral Endocrinology Fields

1:23:59largely based on animal literature but

1:24:01then expanding into human literature

1:24:03that certain forms of activities could

1:24:06change hormone patterns and maybe even

1:24:08psychology and that makes sense on the

1:24:11surface of it but is there evidence that

1:24:14um if somebody engages in say

1:24:16high-intensity training or competitive

1:24:18scenarios this has been explored a lot

1:24:20in men but I'm wondering if it's also

1:24:22been explored now in women

1:24:24that androgens go up you know I mean

1:24:27there's been these studies I don't know

1:24:29how good they are of you know um people

1:24:32on the stock exchange you know watching

1:24:34their stress fluctuations measuring

1:24:36testosterone I think most of those

1:24:37studies were done in men um but other

1:24:40competitive scenarios even showing for

1:24:42instance that exogenous testosterone can

1:24:45increase altruism in men if men are

1:24:48competing for who's like donating the

1:24:50most money at a Phil philanthropic event

1:24:53but you put them in a different scenario

1:24:55where it's far less benevolent in in

1:24:56goal and then they'll uh exogenous

1:24:59testosterone drives competitiveness

1:25:00towards um things that are more

1:25:02traditionally thought of as male male

1:25:04competition uh in other words it's all

1:25:06context dependent um is there anything

1:25:08that kind of Springs to mind of

1:25:09interesting studies as it relates to

1:25:11androgens or uh estrogens in women

1:25:14athletes and as it relates to

1:25:17exercise they haven't done any specific

1:25:19studies like that in women we do see

1:25:21that under stress the cortisol increases

1:25:23and if you have an adequate uh response

1:25:27to it and your body can overcome it then

1:25:28yes you get a boost in testosterone for

1:25:30women um we see this in a lot of the

1:25:33night Mission shift changes in tactical

1:25:36athletes there is also uh I guess a

1:25:41lessening of circulating estrogen so the

1:25:44pulse changes when we start getting to

1:25:47the end of a really strong training

1:25:49block because we're starting to have a

1:25:51little bit of a down regulation of our

1:25:54leutinizing hormone pulse and estrogen

1:25:57um but it shouldn't be severe enough to

1:25:59cause menstrual cycle dysfunction what

1:26:01we want people to do is look at the

1:26:03ratio of their estrogen progesterone and

1:26:06keeping track of luteinizing hormone if

1:26:08they are at that point where they are

1:26:10going to have a really big training

1:26:12block so we look at pre-season during

1:26:14season end of season and people who

1:26:17might be at a higher risk factor for

1:26:20becoming a menic then we keep track that

1:26:22way um because it is the stress

1:26:24component that can downregulate not

1:26:27actually causing a permanent change as

1:26:31we talk about menstration we should

1:26:32probably talk about iron stores and um

1:26:35Iron yeah um do women need to supplement

1:26:38iron given that they lose iron during

1:26:41menstration it's interesting because we

1:26:43have a change in heepen or heidin

1:26:45depending on which part of the world you

1:26:47come from uh because it is increased

1:26:50under times of inflammation and

1:26:52decreased under times of iron loss so we

1:26:56see a a significant change across the

1:26:58menstrual cycle so I tell women if you

1:27:01are concerned with low fertin then we

1:27:05want you to take an iron supplement

1:27:07every other day starting in the first

1:27:09day of your bleed for 10 days because

1:27:12that's going to really allow your body

1:27:14to absorb it and stay on top of it um

1:27:17after that every other day yeah but

1:27:19you're not going to be absorbing as much

1:27:22of it because hepsin starts to come up

1:27:25after ovulation again you have a

1:27:26pro-inflammatory response so you have

1:27:28greater inflammation do women blanket

1:27:31need a supplement no because we see

1:27:35fatigue isn't necessarily just iron

1:27:37related there's so many other reasons

1:27:41why women are fatigued the one problem

1:27:44is the Baseline levels for like ferien

1:27:48for active women if you go in and you

1:27:50have a fertin level of 20 to 25 they're

1:27:53going to say it's normal

1:27:54but we'd rather see you up around 50 so

1:27:57if you are in that low end of normal

1:28:00then supplementing will help you get up

1:28:02into that 50 and see if it makes a

1:28:04difference if a woman is going to get a

1:28:07blood test to evaluate testosterone

1:28:09estrogen lipids metabolic factors Etc

1:28:13and she can only afford to do that at

1:28:16one point during her cycle and compare

1:28:19at various times maybe every six months

1:28:21or once a year even at that spefic

1:28:24specific time of her cycle is there a

1:28:25Best time in cycle to do that blood

1:28:28test uh if I'm limited to say that then

1:28:31I would say 5 to seven days before her

1:28:34next period starts so mid ludal because

1:28:37then you get a good indication of

1:28:39estrogen progesterone Peak testosterone

1:28:41doesn't fluctuate as much as those two

1:28:43so you're going to get a good idea what

1:28:45Baseline testosterone is and we know

1:28:47that there's a greater inflammatory

1:28:49response so anything that's outside of

1:28:51the norm of that upper elevation of

1:28:53inflammation you're going to be able to

1:28:55to pick out um so yeah I would say if

1:28:59you could only do it at one point in

1:29:01time that would be the time to do it and

1:29:03if she can add a second blood test at a

1:29:06different phase of the menstrual cycle

1:29:08where would you place that second test

1:29:10day two of the menstrual cycle second

1:29:13day of bleeding to get a really good

1:29:15indication of what your true estrogen

1:29:17level is at Baseline and if she measures

1:29:20her hormones at those two times within

1:29:22the cycle do you think that's sufficient

1:29:24to um get 75% plus of the relevant data

1:29:29yeah definitely

1:29:32terrific caffeine yes in the old days

1:29:36yeah meaning when I was a kid and not

1:29:38long ago 10 years three weeks ago um we

1:29:42would hear these crazy statements about

1:29:45caffeine it pulls calcium out of the

1:29:48bones it's you know you'd hear this

1:29:49stuff I did a whole episode on caffeine

1:29:51I'm a big fan of caffeine but I do warn

1:29:53people that if they suffer from anxiety

1:29:56or they're going through a particularly

1:29:58stressful life event it can raise the

1:30:01activity of the sympathetic arm of the

1:30:03autonomic nervous system you'll feel

1:30:04more nervous you're more prone to panic

1:30:06yeah when you're drinking caffeine but

1:30:08um many people love caffeine I think 90%

1:30:11of the adult population of the world

1:30:13ingests some form of caffeine every

1:30:15single day I'm in that 90% yeah likewise

1:30:17making it the most consumed drug

1:30:22worldwide is caffeine safe for women I

1:30:25suspect based on what you just said that

1:30:27the answer will be yes but are there um

1:30:29case conditions where women should be

1:30:32cautious about their intake of caffeine

1:30:33independent of this anxiety thing I mean

1:30:37people probably shouldn't uh drink more

1:30:39caffeine than they can uh tolerate

1:30:41psychologically no one male female young

1:30:44or old yeah yeah it's more of a genetic

1:30:46Factor than it is a sex Factor uh so I

1:30:49mean both men and women will be fast

1:30:51metabolizers slow metabolizers or not

1:30:54have an effect that becomes the bigger

1:30:56Rock of them what we do find is in that

1:31:01per menopausal State women will become

1:31:03more sensitive to the blood sugar

1:31:05fluctuations that happen with caffeine

1:31:07so they're used to having coffee in the

1:31:09morning and with something then halfway

1:31:11through their workout they become a

1:31:13little bit

1:31:14hypoglycemic because there's changes in

1:31:17um insulin sensitivity insulin responses

1:31:21so there's changes also in blood sugar

1:31:23control

1:31:24and caffeine can exacerbate that so if

1:31:27you are someone who's like oh I always

1:31:29have a double espresso before I go

1:31:31workout and then halfway through I'm

1:31:32really hypoglycemic I'm really dizzy and

1:31:34lightheaded I don't know what to do feel

1:31:36sick or nauseous yeah yeah eat some food

1:31:39eat some food with it what about sipping

1:31:41caffeine through the workout um you know

1:31:44taking that coffee in and just having a

1:31:45SI between sets can that offset some of

1:31:47that uh I don't think so okay I hear a

1:31:50lot that people who drink caffeine

1:31:52before a workout you know Midway through

1:31:54they're like I don't feel good yeah yeah

1:31:56cuz they don't eat that for me that just

1:31:59stimulates the desire for more caffeine

1:32:00but um or even how dare I say a half

1:32:03piece of nicotine gum which I

1:32:06experimented with but I was told and

1:32:09this is why I'm not going to continue to

1:32:10do it not only is it very habit forming

1:32:13it actually is such a Vaso constrictor

1:32:16that uh I was told by a dermatologist

1:32:19that it's terrible for skin even if

1:32:20you're not getting your nicotine by

1:32:21smoking vaping dipping or snuffing so

1:32:25this this big Trend now toward ingesting

1:32:28nicotine as a stimulant and cognitive

1:32:30enhancer and performance enhancer I

1:32:32think people should at least be aware of

1:32:34the negative effects on skin never would

1:32:37have known because I'm not a nicotine

1:32:39person I'll tell you that half piece of

1:32:41nicotine gum is um the first time you do

1:32:44it it's a it's an unbelievable

1:32:48experience it's the it's like your first

1:32:51real cup of coffee oh really wakes you

1:32:53up yeah and dials you in I I recommend

1:32:56nobody do it because it's it feels that

1:32:58Pleasant if you like caffeine I like

1:33:00Shandra for that reason Shandra yeah

1:33:03what's Shandra it's an adaptogen I me I

1:33:05should know what this is you you should

1:33:06know what this is I should know well I'm

1:33:07here to learn okay um Shandra Shandra uh

1:33:12yeah so it is an adaptogenic plant so

1:33:16you know like jining siberian jining

1:33:19maah asaga all those buzzword out there

1:33:23Shandra is another really well-studied

1:33:25adaptogen and I have friends who say

1:33:27it's like Aderall where you take it and

1:33:29it's immediate fun focus and function

1:33:32because its main goal is to regulate

1:33:35dopamine serotonin and cortisol so it

1:33:38gives you gets women and men out of that

1:33:41brain fog gives them incredible Focus do

1:33:43you use it yep are you on it now I put

1:33:46it in my morning coffee okay uh you just

1:33:50sent people down the uh the rabbit hole

1:33:51of the internet of the internet all

1:33:53right yeah yeah you heard it here first

1:33:55from Dr Stacy Sims I'm going to give it

1:33:57a try because the nicotine thing is an

1:33:59interesting one and there are some

1:34:01cognitive enhancing effects of nicotine

1:34:02that perhaps in um people 65 and older

1:34:06might actually be beneficial for

1:34:07offsetting some forms of neurod

1:34:09degeneration but that needs to still be

1:34:11explored and researched don't cut that

1:34:13and clip it and put it out there like so

1:34:15that's happened already um very

1:34:16interesting all right caffeine we both

1:34:18agree is great Shandra you got to try it

1:34:21check it out let me know all right we'll

1:34:22do

1:34:24cold yeah for reasons I still don't

1:34:27understand people have Associated me or

1:34:30this podcast with deliberate cold

1:34:31exposure I like deliberate cold exposure

1:34:33in the form of a cold shower or a cold

1:34:35plunge or an ice bath mostly for the

1:34:37effects that occur

1:34:39afterward meaning more alertness a kind

1:34:42of semi- euphoric Buzz that goes on a

1:34:45long long time no I don't think it

1:34:48increases metabolism significantly

1:34:50enough to have a meaningful difference

1:34:51but the long long lasting increases in

1:34:55the so-called catac colines dopamine or

1:34:57epinephrine and epinephrine to me are

1:34:59pretty impressive and I just like the

1:35:00way it makes me feel so that's the main

1:35:04reason I believe why people do

1:35:06deliberate cold exposure and every time

1:35:08I do a post about deliberate cold

1:35:10exposure I get asked understandably so

1:35:14how does it affect women differently

1:35:16than men and then I usually get

1:35:17questions about rod syndrome oh yeah

1:35:19yeah so is there a difference in terms

1:35:23of how Del cold exposure impacts women I

1:35:25have to imagine the answer is yes given

1:35:26what you said earlier about Vaso

1:35:27constriction versus Vaso dilation but

1:35:30deliberate cold exposure like it hate it

1:35:33what do you think do you recommend it

1:35:34for women I recommend it for Open Water

1:35:37swimmers who might experience that vagal

1:35:39response when they first dive into the

1:35:41cold I prefer heat for women everyone's

1:35:44a responder to the heat you get better

1:35:47adaptations so sauna yep sauna hot tub

1:35:50yep preferably a true finish sauna

1:35:52infrared doesn't it warms the skin but

1:35:55not the core we want thank you for

1:35:56saying that I'm not a big fan of

1:35:57infrared sauna cuz it doesn't get hot

1:35:59enough no yeah you can bring an infrared

1:36:01light into a traditional sauna if it can

1:36:03tolerate the heat yeah but finished

1:36:05sauna would be what something between

1:36:06185 degrees Fahrenheit and maybe 210 if

1:36:10you're really heat

1:36:11adapted yeah I'm still working on Metric

1:36:13let me do the conversion oh sorry yeah

1:36:15you're living down in New Zealand now

1:36:16yeah so 60 to 80 degrees C I need to

1:36:19look every time I've tried to do math on

1:36:21the fly on this podcast in my head it's

1:36:23like okay * 9 different processing mode

1:36:26yeah but people can look it up yeah okay

1:36:29look it up um so the thing with cold

1:36:32water exposure is the whole conversation

1:36:34about ice cold ice baths and how cold it

1:36:38is it's too cold for women because when

1:36:42we're looking at that severe immediate

1:36:44jump into that icy cold it causes such

1:36:48severe constriction and shutdown so

1:36:51women do really well and get that whole

1:36:54dopamine response and everything if the

1:36:56water is around 16° C which is 55 to 56

1:37:01degrees Fahrenheit which is chilly it's

1:37:04chilly it's not warm no it's go dive in

1:37:07San Francisco Bay right and that is

1:37:10enough to offset that severe

1:37:12constriction survival but it is cold

1:37:16enough to invoke all the changes that we

1:37:19want with cold water

1:37:22exposure so it's a temperature Nuance

1:37:25that's that sex difference and like I

1:37:28said when I have Open Water swimmers who

1:37:30are going to do a long swim or they're

1:37:33going to do a triathlon and the water is

1:37:35colder I have them do cold water

1:37:37exposure especially face exposure into

1:37:40the cold water um to get them habituated

1:37:43to that initial severe constriction and

1:37:47sympathetic activity that we don't want

1:37:49to happen before a

1:37:51rice with heat being the true like true

1:37:54heat that we're talking about with sauna

1:37:56we see a lot of metabolic changes for

1:38:00women so we're having better insulin and

1:38:03glucose control we're seeing uh a better

1:38:07um expression of our heat shock proteins

1:38:09and the uncoupling and and the

1:38:11rebuilding of those proteins that are

1:38:14cardiovascular responses and then for

1:38:17women as we get older and have the

1:38:20offshoot of hot flashes night sweats

1:38:24that kind of stuff if you're doing heat

1:38:26exposure you're sending a stronger

1:38:29stimulus to the

1:38:31hypothalamus and you're also getting a

1:38:33better serotonin production from the gut

1:38:37because we have 95% of our serotonin

1:38:39produced from the gut which lends to

1:38:42better temperature control and shuts

1:38:44down hot flashes I think some people

1:38:47might be confused by the idea of using

1:38:49sauna in order to reduce the hot flashes

1:38:53um so I'll just remind people that your

1:38:56brain has a set of neurons in the medial

1:38:59preoptic area that's sort of a

1:39:00thermostat if you will controlling core

1:39:03body temperature and if you heat the

1:39:05surface of your body your medial

1:39:07preoptic neurons say oh let's cool down

1:39:09the core of the body now if you stay in

1:39:11that heat too long you'll cook your your

1:39:13body core body temperature will go up

1:39:15but conversely if the surface of your

1:39:17body is made cold the internal milu of

1:39:20your body will heat up because those

1:39:21medial preoptic neurons will say oh

1:39:23you know this this is like putting an

1:39:25ice pack on the uh thermostat which is

1:39:28what um graduate students and post talks

1:39:30used to do in the labs side working

1:39:32because it was a battle over the the

1:39:33heater right some people were in hot

1:39:35some people were in cold so there was

1:39:36always this this business in any event

1:39:39um so it's not that you disapprove of

1:39:42the of using deliberate cold exposure

1:39:44you just recommend that women do

1:39:46deliberate cold exposure with

1:39:47temperatures that are maybe in the um

1:39:49low 50° Fahrenheit um Range as opposed

1:39:53to the really H frankly just painfully

1:39:57cold for anybody um you know 38 to you

1:40:02know 50 degree temperatures right we did

1:40:05a pilot study looking because Wim Hoff

1:40:07has been down to New Zealand quite a bit

1:40:09and so you know his breathing and ice

1:40:11bath stuff has been making the rounds

1:40:15and working in the high performance

1:40:17people wanted to do that but we have few

1:40:19athletes that have really severe

1:40:21endometriosis it's like well we could

1:40:23look at using cold exposure to help

1:40:25control that and what we found over the

1:40:27course of this study was that if we were

1:40:29to do deliberate cold

1:40:31exposure around ovulation and then hold

1:40:35it for 10 days over the course of three

1:40:39menstrual cycles it attenuated the

1:40:42endometriosis because endometriosis is

1:40:44an inflammatory disease right so if

1:40:46we're looking at inflammation process

1:40:48and growing the tissue if we can dampen

1:40:51that inflammation and create a response

1:40:53that learns that inflammation and

1:40:55dampens it then it helps with

1:40:58endometriosis interesting that's another

1:41:01Avenue that we really want to take when

1:41:02we're looking at Cold deliberate cold

1:41:05exposure wow

1:41:08fascinating as a cautionary note if

1:41:10anyone is going to explore Wim Hoff type

1:41:12methods um please please please do not

1:41:16combine cyclic

1:41:18hyperventilation um or hyperventilation

1:41:20of any kind with breath holds and water

1:41:22exposure not even in the depth of a

1:41:24puddle um there have been drownings

1:41:26associated with people doing cyclic

1:41:28hyperventilation in various contexts not

1:41:30just related to Hof breathing but um

1:41:33basically people who are not skilled um

1:41:36and even some who are skilled combining

1:41:38cyclic hyperventilation breath holds and

1:41:40water in any form cold or warm water

1:41:42idea just don't if you're going to do

1:41:44any kind of cyclic hyperventilation

1:41:45breathing my labs actually published on

1:41:47this in a clinical trial do it on dry

1:41:49land or don't do it at all and if you're

1:41:51going to do deliberate cold exposure um

1:41:53limit your breathing to slow deep

1:41:56breaths make sure that you're um well

1:42:00supervised and um just stay alive please

1:42:03yeah so we didn't incorporate any of the

1:42:05Wim Hof breathing we just Incorporated

1:42:07the deliberate water cold water

1:42:09exposures cold and temperature generally

1:42:12is such a potent stimulus and it's

1:42:14exciting that people are starting to

1:42:15explore this especially the in my

1:42:17opinion the the sauna work uh one thing

1:42:20I suppose that we should um discuss very

1:42:22briefly before we move on since we've

1:42:23been talking about resistance

1:42:26training we've been talking about

1:42:27deliberate cold exposure there is

1:42:29evidence that doing deliberate cold

1:42:31exposure not so much in the form of a

1:42:33cold shower but in the form of a um