A Mudança de MENTALIDADE que me fez Bilionário (Guilherme Benchimol) | Jota Jota Podcast #284

0:01My guest today came from an unlikely

0:03beginning and years later he founded XP

0:05. I almost went broke a few times , I

0:08started with 10 dollars in the stock

0:10market and never looked for any

0:12shortcuts . He challenged the big banks

0:15and built one of the most influential

0:16businesses in the country . In 2010 , I

0:20became ... welcome with great honor , with

0:24great pride , Guilherme Bentm . Do you

0:28have a business that depends on you ?

0:29You don't have a business . My opinion

0:31is that you have a turbocharged job .

0:34How does someone identify the level

0:37they're at to take that next step ? A

0:40leader who starts to become more

0:41arrogant , people don't want to work

0:43with him . So , the more success , the

0:45more complex your company becomes . Slow

0:48is fast at the beginning . Slow is fast .

0:52Being intense isn't being aggressive .

0:54As long as you're intense on a thesis

0:56that holds up . In my opinion , you

1:00invest in who you trust . You trust who

1:03you know . It's difficult to stop being

1:08who you were and what worked , because

1:10you worked . But at the size you're at ,

1:13things are going to start going wrong .

1:14Then you have to learn to be someone

1:16else . That's why most entrepreneurs

1:18reach a point where they stagnate ,

1:20because they lacked the courage to

1:22transform themselves again . XP's big

1:25dream . What are the milestones you want

1:28to achieve ? Before we start today's

1:35podcast , I want to invite you to

1:36something . The podcast is wonderful

1:38with Ben Mall . And Ben Mall also writes

1:40a weekly newsletter . It's called " Na

1:42Raça " ( By Grit ) . " Na Raça " is how he

1:45talks to people , explaining how he

1:47brought XP from scratch and transformed

1:51it into this empire , this grand thing .

1:54His learnings , his insights , everything

1:57he did with XP . He writes every week .

2:00And below is a link for you to

2:02subscribe and receive Ben Mall's

2:04newsletter every week , where he talks a

2:07lot about XP , his learnings , and you'll

2:09also receive new articles every week .

2:12It's wonderful , it's incredible . He

2:14speaks in a simple , practical , and

2:16inspiring way , using XP as a case study

2:19. The good , the wonderful thing for us

2:22entrepreneurs is that it's practical ,

2:24it opens our minds , expands our vision ,

2:26and the application is practical . So

2:28down here you will find a link that you

2:30can click to subscribe and start

2:32receiving the Bench Mall newsletter in

2:35your inbox on a weekly basis from now

2:37on . Great , that's amazing . Now let's

2:39start the JJ Podcast , which is

2:41wonderful .

2:44Thank you so much , Jovi , for everything

2:47. You know one of the things I talk

2:49about most that you taught me , maybe

2:52you don't remember , but I'll remind you

2:54. I think in 2022 , we were doing an

2:58event here at a hotel in Alphaville , I

3:01was still with the Primo group . Then

3:06Thiago calls , how do you reply ? Hey ,

3:08can you come over to the hotel , talk to

3:10the guys ? So you went and there was a

3:12small room and you looked at me and

3:14said : " João , entrepreneurs have to

3:16master three things : increase revenue ,

3:18decrease costs , and best of all ,

3:20improve product quality . "

3:22And I always quote you , I always quote

3:25you like this : " Guys , I once heard

3:28Bemol say this , this mastery , this

3:31command , you took something important ,

3:34simplified it , put three numbers on it ,

3:37and that's how you work , right ? That's

3:40how

3:40simple it is , right ? Are you like that

3:43for everything ? I'm like that

3:44for everything , man . I think I can ,

3:46modestly speaking , get straight to the

3:49point without beating around the bush .

3:51It's

3:51always been like that . It's

3:53always been like that . Yeah , I think

3:55I've become like that . I think I've

3:57learned to be super objective . I think

4:00when you're an entrepreneur who's

4:02having some success , I think Darwin

4:04only lets you climb the ladder if you

4:06get straight to the point , right ? So ,

4:08consistent net profit , right ? So ,

4:10revenue that expenses grow over time ,

4:12increasing margins , increasingly

4:14satisfied customers . That's the

4:16mystery , there's no mystery , right ?

4:17There's focus , work , discipline .

4:19Discipline , man . I think that's the

4:21word of the game . And I think that's

4:23what I've learned over the years .

4:25When I was younger , He was a bit of a

4:27troublemaker .

4:29But when you finally understand how

4:31things work , and you learn how to plan

4:34and how to maintain your focus , then in

4:36the end , having that specific ability

4:39to do exactly what needs to be done is

4:41what truly changes the game for me .

4:44It's not talent , it's important to see

4:46it , it's important to create a plan ,

4:48but the challenge is in the daily

4:51execution , and for that , it's important

4:53that you are very organized and do what

4:55needs to be done every day , because I

4:58notice that a good portion of these

5:00people waste their time . So , knowing

5:03how to manage your time , knowing what

5:07you want and therefore what you won't

5:10do ,

5:11and being very resilient in this

5:13process with discipline ,

5:14in my opinion , is what transforms

5:16impossible things into something truly

5:18impossible .

5:19Bent , you are a public figure ,

5:22influential , an influencer of

5:24businesspeople , entrepreneurs , and the

5:27financial market . What do you hear most

5:30when on the street ? When people stop

5:32you , look you in the eye , what do you

5:33say ? Do they talk to you ? This energy

5:36is really good , isn't it ? I never

5:38imagined myself like this ; I'm a person

5:40who's more shy at heart , you know ? I

5:43never imagined being a communicator , as

5:46I was a stutterer in childhood . So , you

5:49know ? It wasn't something I imagined

5:51myself mastering ,

5:53uh-huh .

5:53The papers , leading , etc. But it's

5:56gratifying to see how much I might

5:59inspire entrepreneurs in Brazil . So ,

6:03perhaps having started an improbable

6:04story and having arrived where I am and

6:07having the feeling that I'm just

6:08getting started , right ? Uh-huh .

6:10Right ? I think that makes a lot of

6:12people believe in themselves and think

6:14there's a path , right ? So , I almost

6:16went broke a few times , I started with

6:1810,000 in my wallet . So , I think all of

6:21that makes a difference , and I never

6:22looked for any kind of shortcut . Uh-huh

6:24. So , I think in Brazil there are many

6:26stories of entrepreneurs who got there ,

6:29but in the wrong way . And I'm very

6:32proud to say that I never did anything

6:34wrong . I've made several mistakes , but

6:36mistakes in Four lines and

6:37it's illegal , right ? So I believe that

6:41you are confident that you can achieve

6:43success with honor and with pride . Uh ,

6:46I think that's it . I think that maybe

6:49that reaches people and makes them

6:51believe in Brazil , in their future , in

6:54companies , always believing that there

6:57is a path . So I suppose that , in the

6:59end , I happen to be an inspiring story ,

7:02don't I ?

7:02It's true .

7:03And I think that's what's missing in

7:05Brazil . I think we cultivate the wrong

7:07heroes many times .

7:11It's true . We're recording here now and

7:14before we recorded , we watched excerpts

7:17at the moment we're recording . João

7:20Fica is playing against Dokovic and

7:22we're cheering here .

7:25Uh , you believe that examples like

7:27João's are examples of the right

7:29people to follow , right ? You said ,

7:32sometimes we cultivate the heroism of

7:35the wrong person , right ? A wrong

7:37example , a wrong reference . And João ,

7:40except for sports , because sports is

7:42the means he uses , right ? What are the

7:45things he does , which you not only

7:47follow him for , Look , you sponsor him ,

7:50you invest in him , right ?

7:52You follow him . We see XP really

7:55putting energy , focus , and assets into

7:59João . What's behind that , what are the

8:02values you recognize , that he has , and

8:04that you want to promote ?

8:06Well , I believe the big gap in Brazil

8:10is a country with a strong culture . So ,

8:14when we think about countries that have

8:16been more successful , we think of the

8:18United States , with a clear culture of

8:21entrepreneurship . When we think of

8:23Japan , the culture of honor . When we

8:25think of Germany , the culture of

8:27precision , right ? In Brazil , we have

8:29the culture of the " jeitinho , " right ? I

8:34believe there is a silver bullet for

8:36Brazil : it is setting a high standard

8:38for behavior , performance , and quality ,

8:40instead of just doing things in a

8:42half-hearted manner , don't you agree ?

8:45Uh-huh . So , in a way , when we start to

8:47sponsor an athlete like João , who I

8:49hope will be a champion because he is

8:52very young and is only just starting

8:54out , it means competing against the

8:56foreigners who have ... There's much more

8:59infrastructure , a much more established

9:01sports culture , and so on . So , someone

9:04who , with great resilience , wins and

9:07raises the country's flag abroad , that

9:10makes us believe more in Brazil ,

9:12that makes us believe in the country ,

9:14right ? And I believe we attempt to

9:16shift this erroneous behavior slightly ,

9:19because I truly feel that Brazilians

9:21suffer from this syndrome that we are

9:23simply unable to reach that objective .

9:25I think the more people believe they

9:27can get there , the more we will get

9:28there . Exactly . So ,

9:31telling my story about my

9:33entrepreneurial journey , João Fonseca

9:36and so many other athletes we help ,

9:38that makes us believe that it's

9:40possible to win , right , in the right

9:42way , with a lot of determination , with

9:45a lot of resilience . So , I think these

9:48are the heroes who help us believe more

9:50in Brazil . So , I believe that we are

9:53associated with the people who win in

9:55the proper way , don't you think ? Yeah ,

9:57that reminds me of Senna back then .

9:59I was going to talk about that , you

10:01guys , because it's not just about ...

10:03Victory , because there are many

10:05athletes who had the competence of

10:07Senna or Guga , but the way things

10:09happened , the messages that came out of

10:12their mouths , there was always that

10:14something extra . And I'm sure that

10:15those who are older , you know , you a

10:17little younger than me , you didn't

10:18experience Senna , right ? You did , you

10:20experienced a lot , a lot of things , but

10:21I experienced it when I was 13 , 12

10:23years old . 13

10:24is when he passed away , I was 13 years

10:25old . So there we felt super powerful

10:28when you got in the car , when there

10:30were those Sunday mornings ,

10:32when it rained ,

10:33when it rained he would start last and

10:35win the race . So that makes us believe

10:37more in ourselves , because Brazilians

10:39have this thing about finding a way

10:41around things , this thing of thinking

10:42that everyone from outside is better ,

10:44that we are not possible . So it's

10:46important that we have outstanding

10:48athletes , outstanding entrepreneurs .

10:50This gradually creates the inertia that

10:52if one of them made it , I can too . If

10:55an athlete It arrived , I can too . So I

10:57think we have to exalt these heroes .

11:00And you're super , right , you as XP are

11:02super attentive to sports , right ? In

11:042022 , you sponsored the Olympics , it

11:06wasn't , it was 22 ,

11:0822. We sponsored in 2018 , 22.

11:10It's 22.

11:12Actually , you did the opposite of me ,

11:14right ? You started as an athlete and

11:15became a businessman .

11:17Exactly . I started the opposite , right ?

11:19I am an amateur athlete , but my true

11:21dream was never really that of becoming

11:24a businessman . My dream was to have

11:26been an athlete .

11:27I wasn't to have been a tennis player .

11:31Until I was 15 years old , my life was

11:33practically playing tennis . I came home

11:36one day and said , " Dad , I want to drop

11:39out of school , I want to focus on

11:41tennis . " He said , " Son , it's good that

11:43you want to do that , because today

11:45you're going to quit tennis . " " And my

11:47career ended because I wasn't doing

11:49well in school , so I only wanted to

11:51play tennis .

11:53My father is a doctor , very studious ,

11:55so he wanted me to pursue a more

11:56academic career .

11:57Yes .

11:58But what I really liked was playing

12:00tennis . Now , now I'll explain .

12:02But I think a little of my competitive

12:04instinct came , in fact , a lot of my

12:06competitive instinct came from having a

12:08lot of competitive stimulation when I

12:10was younger . I think this thing about

12:12encouraging children to compete in

12:14their youth , I think that's the best

12:16way to teach young people to understand

12:18how life works .

12:19I believe in that .

12:20You have to have grit , you have to have

12:23a

12:23competitive instinct , right ? Life is a

12:25competition . I didn't know of any other

12:27school that taught more about managing

12:30emotions , winning , losing , frustration ,

12:32competition , coaching , long-term

12:34planning , discipline , repetition ,

12:36monotony , routine than sports . It's

12:38humility . Humility . Humility . Humility

12:40is

12:41extremely important . It's

12:42resilience , a lot of discipline , and a

12:45lot of

12:45humility . For me , those are the three

12:48things that ...

12:49What are they ? "

12:50Resilience .

12:51Resilience . A lot of humility and

12:54discipline .

12:57Humility .

12:57Truth . You have to stay strong in the

13:01long term . You have to be humble , you

13:04have to learn from your mistakes . You

13:06have to get a little smarter every day ,

13:08understand that a mistake is a gift

13:11that makes you smarter , and maintain

13:13that consistency over the years , which

13:16will bring you closer and closer to

13:18what you're looking for , right ? So ,

13:21never think you've arrived , always

13:23think you're just starting , always

13:25think you haven't done anything , and

13:28have a team that can complement you and

13:30also buy into those values . In the

13:33place you are today , in the position

13:35you have , with the results you have ,

13:37how do you exercise this ? You are in a

13:40prominent position today , with a rare

13:43effect , with an indisputable result . I

13:46would even like to ask what data you

13:48can share here that is public , just so

13:50the group has a sense of scale , so I

13:52can also update myself on the data , the

13:54big numbers . So , take the big numbers ,

13:56the data that is open , that is public ,

13:57you can talk about it .

13:59Yes .

13:59And So , based on this data , how do you

14:01practice what you mentioned ? Resilience

14:03, humility , and discipline , above all ,

14:06humility . Well , in 2025 , we'll have

14:10practically 20 billion in top-line

14:13revenue , and approximately 5.2 billion

14:18in net profit . We have approximately 5

14:22million clients . So , these are our big

14:25numbers , but we work in a business

14:26segment , which is a segment that

14:28happens to be highly concentrated here

14:30in Brazil . So I think that has always

14:31inspired me . So , as an athlete , you'll

14:33understand this , right ? Yes .

14:371.4 trillion in revenue . Uh-huh . That's

14:40what the financial sector makes in

14:42revenue . We make 20 trillion in revenue

14:44.

14:44So , we're

14:47very small , right ? From a revenue

14:48standpoint , we are also more relevant

14:50when considering the investment

14:51standpoint as well . We have almost 10 %

14:52of the investment market share , but in

14:55revenue we have 1.5 % . I understand .

14:58And we are becoming an increasingly

14:59complete company . And

15:01this territory ,

15:02this investment territory , is the

15:04territory where we are most focused ,

15:06but we are increasingly expanding ,

15:08extending this time , so that this

15:09client who invests with us starts to

15:11have a checking account , they have a

15:13credit card , they buy insurance , we

15:14have our wholesale bank that starts to

15:16serve entrepreneurs , that starts to

15:18grow in credit . So ,

15:20the life of education , you think , you

15:21educate so much , you teach so much ,

15:23because it has a very strong body in

15:24education , right ? It does ,

15:25they become more aware ,

15:27it's better and they can see the " no's

15:30" as much because our strategy , we are a

15:32company focused on the public that has

15:34money , right ? So in Brazil there are 30

15:36million Brazilians who have some type

15:38of savings . So this is our target

15:39audience of investors . Then this client

15:41starts investing with us

15:42and we want this client to have an

15:44increasingly verticalized relationship

15:46with XP . Therefore , it is important

15:49that we can offer other experiences

15:51that make this client concentrate their

15:53entire life with us . And that's why you

15:55have a checking account , You have a

15:57credit card , then the client

15:58concentrates their investments and you

16:00generate other related businesses that

16:02allow the company to scale . So that's a

16:04bit of the vision .

16:06But regarding characteristics , look , I

16:09think you can't be successful or

16:12continue being successful if you're not

16:15humble , because it's normal , uh , in

16:17fact , it should be normal , right , to

16:20have some success , to become

16:22increasingly self-confident . Yes .

16:25And to think you know more about things

16:27, right ? And I think that my team and I

16:31, the more successful we are , the more

16:34we understand that we have to work

16:36harder , the more important it is to be

16:39in contact with the teams below ,

16:42talking to clients , understanding the

16:44competition . So , if you're having more

16:46and more success and you're becoming

16:48complacent , which I think is normal , in

16:50the sense that , oh , I've been

16:52successful ,

16:52yes ,

16:53I know what needs to be done , right ? So

16:56, we think we know what needs to be

16:58done , we believe it's in that direction

17:01, but We're always very humble , we're

17:04just like us , we exchange opinions . So

17:07it's normal for us to think one thing

17:08today and another thing tomorrow . And I

17:10think that's what makes a leader who

17:14starts to become more arrogant ; people

17:17don't want to interact with him . So ,

17:19the more successful you are , the more

17:21complex your company becomes . There are

17:239,000 employees in the company .

17:25So , if I am not being very humble ,

17:27people will not want to have a

17:28conversation with me . And in the end ,

17:31that's how you seize the opportunities

17:32you have in the company . Not just me ,

17:34but Thiago Mafra , the directors , etc. ,

17:37etc. So , if you want to have long-term

17:39success , you have to be increasingly

17:41humble and you have to believe that you

17:43haven't done anything yet , that you're

17:46just starting , because it's common ,

17:48again , to become complacent , to think

17:50you know everything and think you've

17:54arrived , right ? And that's the

17:55beginning of the end , right ? So , we

17:57know how fragile a company is , right ?

18:00It's very fragile . The difference

18:01between being alive and being dead .

18:02It's a cycle sometimes , right ? Have

18:04you ever been in that place ? Have you

18:06ever been in that place where you

18:08realized you needed to be a better

18:12listener but didn't , because , I don't

18:15know , the day-to-day work didn't help ?

18:18Have you always been a person who pays

18:19attention to that ?

18:19No , I've noticed .

18:21No , I think I've always had a humble

18:24characteristic of listening . Ah , I

18:28think my skill , my skill as a leader ,

18:31is even bringing people together , okay ?

18:34I am not the most intelligent ; perhaps

18:36I am the most skilled at connecting

18:39people and telling a story about a

18:43mission , about a very big dream ,

18:45wouldn't you say ? I think that's my

18:47strength :

18:48bringing people together ,

18:50showing the direction , and getting the

18:51best out of everyone every day , right ?

18:53Right ? I think that's , maybe it was my

18:55greatest characteristic , but I realize

18:57when you start a company , you have to

19:00be a person — in fact , I realize that

19:02today , I didn't think I was . When you

19:04start the initial phase of a company ,

19:06you have to be a great operator , you

19:08have to get your hands dirty . It's all

19:09about the work , right ? You're there

19:11executing , operating , and so on . And

19:13without realizing it , you end up being

19:16someone who interferes in everything .

19:19Uh-huh .

19:19And in a way , that's a kind of

19:21arrogance . You know everything , you

19:23meddle in everything , you have your

19:26rights there , but you're smaller and

19:28you're a doer . Uh-huh .

19:30So this characteristic takes you from

19:33zero to two , three , but this

19:35characteristic doesn't take you from

19:38three to infinity . Because from three

19:43to infinity you have to be more than

19:45what I told you about what I am : the

19:48person capable of building

19:49extraordinary teams , learning to

19:51delegate , learning to inspire , learning

19:54to get the best out of every human

19:56being , learning to demand results .

20:00Because if you continue being an

20:02executor , and again , the executor , in a

20:04way , is arrogant because they meddle in

20:06everything , they know everything , they

20:08just know more than everyone else

20:10without realizing it , okay ? I see it

20:12nowadays , and the truth is that

20:14nowadays I am no longer an expert in

20:16the field of investments . There are

20:18people who knows much more about this

20:20than I do . Today I consider myself a

20:23people expert .

20:24Yes . You're good at bringing

20:26people together ,

20:27showing the vision

20:28and extracting insights from each of

20:29them .

20:30And I think that's the difficult part

20:32of entrepreneurship ,

20:33because you have to keep changing your

20:35persona . The formula that worked ,

20:38I agree . It's

20:39not the formula that will continue to

20:41work . At some point the formula changes

20:42and you start to become an obstacle . So

20:44, in 2010 , in 2010 I became , I became a

20:47traffic manager because I had a lot of

20:50success being an executor . The company

20:53went from zero to 2010 , which is when

20:56we had a foreign fund that came in as a

20:59partner .

21:00Yes .

21:01But I was that bulldozer , like every

21:03entrepreneur who starts from the top ,

21:05you're a bulldozer , otherwise you won't

21:07get there . But then you mold yourself

21:10to be that , to be that , that character ,

21:13in quotes , right ? And it's difficult to

21:17stop being who you were and what worked

21:19, because you worked . Uh-huh . But ... The

21:23size you're at , things are going to

21:25start going wrong . Then you have to

21:27learn to be someone else . And it's

21:28super difficult to abandon what you did

21:30well

21:30at the top . No , abandoning what you did

21:33well at the top and throwing yourself

21:35into something you don't know . It's a

21:37total discomfort zone .

21:39Total .

21:39But that is precisely why the majority

21:42of entrepreneurs reach a point where

21:44they become stagnant , because they

21:46lacked the necessary courage to

21:48transform themselves again . It's

21:51at the peak .

21:52At the peak , at the peak . Because it's

21:53something ...

21:54no , you don't . You start reaching a

21:55point where you say : " Damn , I am

21:59getting way too overwhelmed , I see that

22:00I work from Monday to Monday and I

22:02cannot cope with it all . What is

22:04missing here ? "

22:05That is a clear sign of overload .

22:06That is a sign of overload . It is a

22:07sign . For me , the sign that was most

22:14striking was that I gradually lost the

22:16joy of entrepreneurship . I believe that

22:18this is something which is super common

22:19, you know ? It's super common , because

22:22you're good at having quality time , you

22:25learn , you have your company , you have

22:27your family , you have your health , but

22:30when you get too overloaded and

22:33everything depends on you , it kind of

22:35extinguishes that pleasure of

22:37entrepreneurship . And then you say : "

22:40Man , I work from Monday to Monday and I

22:42can't finish everything I have to do .

22:44I'm practically a

22:44red light signal now , aren't I ? " So , in

22:48my case , that's what I said , I don't

22:50know if that's entrepreneurship ,

22:51because they told me that

22:53entrepreneurship was about having

22:54freedom , following my own dreams .

22:56That's not what I'm seeing here , I'm

22:58seeing something else .

23:00And then you say , I have to change , I

23:02need to change . This is

23:032010.

23:05What was the size of XP then ?

23:07No , XP was making around R $ 50 million

23:10.

23:10250.

23:11R $ 50 more or less . We were already a

23:15medium-sized company ,

23:16okay ? Did you understand ? In your mind ,

23:18at that time you were consolidated , you

23:20were in the consolidation phase , you

23:21already had your territory established ?

23:23I was , I was a profitable company , a

23:26company that made 30 million in

23:28abbreviations a year , you know , I

23:31already had some money , and I was

23:33looking for my space , but clearly the

23:36company was very dependent on me , right

23:39? That's what I want to imagine . Her

23:42mother has the result , how did you see

23:43the territory ,

23:45but then from three to infinity there

23:47you realized , right ? What I saw was

23:49that without realizing it , everything

23:51in the company depended on me . Without

23:54realizing it .

23:54Give an example of three things .

23:56Uh , the commercial director wanted to

23:58implement something . Guilherme , I have

24:00an idea here , I want to do this . So ,

24:01everything came back . Why ? Because I

24:04was very much an executor , I was very

24:05much a centralizer , without realizing

24:07it ,

24:07right ? You only realize you're a

24:10centralizer after a few years have

24:13passed and you change who you were . And

24:16he says : " Man , I think that back then ,

24:18the fact that I had a small open office

24:21with the lady's door open , that wasn't

24:23a sign that I was an open person . I was

24:25open , but I was very self-assured , I

24:28was arrogant , without realizing it ,

24:30right ? Because every entrepreneur who's

24:32in execution

24:33knows a lot about what they do . So they

24:36meddle , they overstep their bounds ,

24:38they unknowingly undermine the team's

24:40morale , they interfere , they go to the

24:42manager , the director , they want to

24:44know the details of things again . There

24:47are times when that's important , there

24:48are times when

24:49it starts to get in the way . So I

24:51didn't let the team be self-sufficient

24:54without realizing it ,

24:55right ? And then everything the team

24:58wanted to do , anything at all , they had

25:00to talk to Guilherme . They had to talk

25:02to Guilherme . And then you become a

25:04bottleneck , because you work from 8 to

25:0710 at night . That was my life , Monday

25:09to Monday , and you can't keep up . And

25:12then you start to realize that you ... "

25:14It's hindering you and it's draining

25:16you too much . You barely have a life .

25:18Uh-huh .

25:19Why ? Because you're super competitive ,

25:22you want to succeed , and you've learned

25:24to succeed in a way that you won't

25:26achieve scale unless you completely

25:28change who you are . And in my case , you

25:33know , there was this English fund that

25:37came in as a shareholder , Chukong , who

25:43was the fund manager , and he said : "

25:46Guilharme , uh , I want to help you

25:49change who you are . " Uh-huh . And the

25:52most important question is , out of your

25:55eight or nine direct reports , knowing

25:58them as well as you do , how many would

26:01you hire again today ?

26:03Good .

26:05I said : " Oh , I don't think it's even

26:07one Chu . " He said : " Then you understand

26:10the size of the problem . " You work with

26:13a very committed , very tenacious team ,

26:16people who are very loyal to you , but

26:18that doesn't necessarily mean

26:21competence , and you'll only achieve

26:23scale , and we'll only be able to build

26:26an investment company that wants to

26:29achieve the dreams you say you want , if

26:32you learn to work with the right people

26:35.

26:36Let me ask you a question . Competence

26:38or trust ? Which one should come first

26:41for me ? To me , competence and trust go

26:44together ; without having that trust ,

26:46there is no way to have competence . And

26:49when you looked at the future you

26:50wanted with the team you had ? Because

26:53my team was like that again . It's when

26:55you start zooming in on the operation

26:58and you start talking to more people in

27:00the market , you start raising your bar

27:03a little for people , your bar for

27:05performance , because it's very easy to

27:07confuse commitment and competence . The

27:10person arrives early , the person leaves

27:12late , the person is very tenacious , the

27:15person is in every meeting , the person

27:17loves the company , but that's not

27:19necessarily the competence you need .

27:21And to be successful in business , you

27:24can't be the bulldozer your whole life .

27:28You have to be part of a team that

27:30plays together , everyone pulls together

27:32, and everyone shares the burden of

27:34running a company .

27:36Hmm . And then I said , " Whoa , I need to

27:38start talking to different people . " And

27:41so I changed the CFO . It was a chaotic

27:45area in the company , chaotic , right ?

27:48And then suddenly everything started to

27:51work out , and the CFO knew much more

27:54than I did . And I said , " Whoa , did

27:57you discover it was chaotic after the

27:59change or before the change ? "

28:00No , it was already chaotic before the

28:01change ,

28:02okay ? But when we made the change ,

28:04everything started to work out . We

28:06started to have super structured

28:07long-term plans . We started to cut

28:10expenses where necessary . We started to

28:14allocate capital correctly . Everything

28:17was there , there was logic , there was

28:19coherence , there was data , there were

28:21facts and figures . I said , " Hey , hold

28:23on a minute , man . If I switched with

28:25one person and it started working , what

28:27will happen if I switch with everyone ?

28:29" What if I start , from now on , to worry

28:32less about day-to-day execution and

28:35focus more on seeking unity , developing

28:38increasingly solid plans , ensuring what

28:41is truly a priority , and maintaining a

28:44schedule of rituals that are better

28:47organized ? What if I begin to build a

28:49society that is more structured from

28:51the perspective of internal meritocracy

28:53, effectively starting to balance our

28:55performance with our company culture ?

28:58And I began to understand that these

29:00themes of people and human resources

29:02are what truly make a company

29:04increasingly solid , because you bring

29:06in good people , you place them in the

29:08correct positions , and all this dynamic

29:11of goals , meritocracy , performance , and

29:13culture ensures that everyone

29:15eventually comes to understand how the

29:17rules of the game actually function

29:20here . You'll get the best out of

29:22everyone , and that will scale .

29:24Uh-huh .

29:24Over the years . And then I completely

29:27turned the key . So , I separate my

29:29management style from my CEO role .

29:31Until 2010 , I was a super executor .

29:34Uh-huh . I

29:35was super operational . From 2010 to

29:382021 , I basically became a CEO who

29:43understood people and all their related

29:45aspects . That change was difficult .

29:49Difficult . And in the last 5 years , I

29:52made another important change . I think

29:54in my business life , in the last five

29:56years , there have been

29:57three changes . Up

29:59until 2010 , I was an operational CEO .

30:02From 2010 to 2021 , I was a CEO manager ,

30:06OK ?

30:07Of people . And in 2011 , I stopped being

30:11CEO . I was CEO of the company for 20

30:13years . I'm chairman of the board , I'm

30:16involved in the day-to-day operations

30:18of the company , but today there's a CEO

30:20who I believe is better than me at

30:22executing tasks . And I learned to

30:25influence the CEO and the team , but

30:27without having the power to execute ,

30:30which is the stage where you become

30:33replaceable . It is at this specific

30:36stage that I believe you truly have a

30:38real business . Uh-huh .

30:40Because otherwise , my opinion is that

30:42you have a turbocharged job . Because

30:45you have a business that depends on you

30:47, you don't just have a business , you

30:50have to be there , you have succession

30:52planning , you have a board , but you

30:54have to build a business that can

30:56continue to improve without you . Then

30:59you've built a real business .

31:01How do you guide these people ? Imagine

31:04this : here at JJ , the group listening ,

31:07the group hearing you now , I've already

31:09written down four pages , right ? The

31:12group must also be noting how to

31:15identify the level they're at to take

31:18this next step . Wow , I've already

31:20realized that I'm your operator ,

31:22everything is bottlenecked in me .

31:24People ask : " I'm a control freak , I

31:26want to go into management later to be

31:29someone who influences , but doesn't

31:31have decision-making power on paper .

31:34They'll have to argue , they'll have to

31:35bring vision and so on . What are the ,

31:37let's say , losses and gains ? When you

31:39leave as an operator , what do you lose ?

31:42What do you gain ? When you leave as a

31:44manager , what do you lose ? What do you

31:46gain ? And when you leave as chairman of

31:48the board , what do you lose ? What do

31:50you gain ? And I know that the super

31:53habit of winning , right ? Uh , the reward

31:55compensates . Yes . Look , I think that

31:57back when I

31:58started my business , it wasn't so easy

32:00to access information 20 or 25 years

32:02ago . No , it wasn't , it was mostly

32:04reading Incollins , right ? That's it ,

32:06companies built to last , built to

32:07succeed . That's it . So , it was studying

32:09those books and so on . So , I was

32:11studying and putting it into practice .

32:13But I think that a company , uh , what ...

32:17" What is a company like that ? A company

32:21is , you have to have a long-term plan ,

32:25you have to have a long-term vision ,

32:28where you see addressable markets , you

32:32look at who you're competing against ,

32:35what size that market is , how you're

32:38going to create , what you can offer

32:41differently to clients that allows you

32:44to reach point A , then B , C , and what

32:47is your direct team that will do that ?

32:51So I think it took me a while to

32:52understand that . So you can be an

32:55executive leader , so in a company of 20

32:58, 30 , 40 people , one person makes a big

33:01difference , because you are one of 40 ,

33:04one of 30 , even more so being the

33:07founder of the company . But when you

33:09start to have a much larger team , 100

33:12people , 200 , you are one of 200. So

33:14even if you work for 10 , you are 10 of

33:16200. It doesn't make as much difference

33:19anymore . Uh-huh . So , I think in my

33:21logic it's a That's not much , but if

33:23you're focused on entrepreneurship , you

33:25need a minimum hierarchy . You have to

33:27start getting those direct layers

33:30right . Uh-huh .

33:30And start scaling through them .

33:33So , uh , I would do that as soon as

33:36possible . I think you shouldn't wait

33:39for problems to start . I think you have

33:41to prepare from the beginning , worrying

33:44about the organizational chart , with

33:46that long-term vision , what your

33:48differentiating factor is , and aim for

33:50point A , then after reaching point A ,

33:53reach point B , and then keep going .

33:55You put here , look , vision , right ?

33:57Vision of where you're going , market

33:59size , who the customers are , what they

34:01value , who you're competing with .

34:03Uh ,

34:04and bring that clear to people and

34:07create your team , your base . Yeah . And

34:10and and and that's how I've always

34:12liked it , I think it's so much easier

34:15to copy businesses , right ? I think it's

34:18incredible what E. Musk does , what

34:21Steve Jobs did ,

34:23inventing an industry that doesn't

34:24exist , right ? Wow , this is tough , isn't

34:26it ? It's

34:28so much better to be inspired by

34:30companies that have already succeeded

34:32in other parts of the world and adapt

34:33that to Brazil , understanding their

34:35mistakes and successes , lessons learned

34:37, etc. Yes . Yeah , I believe that Brazil

34:41is always about 10 or 20 years behind

34:43the United States , as well as Europe

34:44and also Asia . So you start looking for

34:46these benchmarks that help you to

34:48connect the dots , which is how it

34:49usually works , right ? What was the

34:51sequence that company A , B , or C

34:53followed abroad ? And then you adapt

34:54that to the country you live in , and

34:56then you become less erratic , you make

34:58fewer mistakes , or you learn about the

35:00mistakes of others , right ? And when you

35:02put all that together , you have a more

35:04plausible plan .

35:05Exactly . So what's the role then ? Well ,

35:09it's to know what a business owner did ,

35:12in your opinion , to understand their

35:14systems , to know how they operate , to

35:16know their best practices .

35:19In this study , it's about understanding

35:23the sequence ... Because what was the

35:26sequence he followed ? Because

35:28everything has a sequence , right ? When

35:35I speak with entrepreneurs , I believe

35:36that you must have that same impression

35:37as well , don't you ? I think every

35:39entrepreneur dreams of having an

35:42international operation , right ? I don't

35:46know if you have that impression , right

35:47? My dream is to have an international

35:49operation , to be able to

35:51scale

35:51internationally , to have an office in

35:53Miami , to

35:54have something in Silicon Valley , and

35:55so on . And so , is that a priority ? What

36:00sequence are you following ? So , having

36:02an international operation might be

36:04step 60.

36:06Uh-huh .

36:07It only makes sense to start the

36:09international operation after you've

36:12done the previous 59. So , having a

36:14sequence that allows you to optimize

36:16the efficient frontier of

36:18entrepreneurship , because

36:20entrepreneurship is about picking the

36:22low-hanging fruit , right ? You have to

36:25have the sequence . So , today I do what

36:27generates the most results , what

36:28generates the most impact , and what

36:32requires the least effort . And with

36:33that , I connect these efforts . In time ,

36:36right , these little points in time . Yes

36:37.

36:37Yes . So you go about optimizing the

36:39entrepreneurial frontier , for we know

36:41that you must produce results , and the

36:43entrepreneur's true fuel is optimizing

36:45those results . With more fuel , they

36:47take more risks , they become more

36:49resilient , and with that , they have an

36:51increasingly solid business over time .

36:54So , having a sequence in time , studying

36:56the sequence that was done in the

36:58United States , where they succeeded ,

37:00where they failed , what they did , etc. ,

37:02makes a huge difference . Because you

37:05understand a bit of the logic and you

37:07create your own sequence , but also

37:09noticing where others have done their

37:12sequences ,

37:12right ?

37:13Uh , should I start with fixed income ?

37:16Should I start with investments ? Should

37:17I go into credit ? Should I do stocks ?

37:20And then you see , you understand a bit

37:22of the logic , and you understand why

37:25that benchmark abroad made certain

37:27moves or why it didn't make certain

37:29moves , right ? Because learning from the

37:32mistakes of others is easy , right ?

37:35That's funny . You just wrote and said , "

37:37Oh , I did this , don't do it , don't

37:39repeat it like that . "

37:41Yeah , no , no . Today , with chat , you can

37:43find out which companies in the world

37:46do what I do ? What was their sequence ?

37:49Where did they make the most mistakes ?

37:50Where can't I make mistakes ? You have

37:52it , just be curious . You're

37:53curious .

37:54Just be curious .

37:54Just be curious , right ?

37:55I'm curious . You've

37:56already asked me four or five questions

37:58here . To start . You did this , you do

37:59that .

38:00Ah , I'm curious .

38:01But your curiosity isn't , let us say , a

38:03shallow type of curiosity ; it is a

38:05curiosity that seeks to connect all the

38:07different dots , isn't it ?

38:08Yeah , so I'm very curious , but I admire

38:11you a lot because you're very curious

38:13about many subjects .

38:15Uh-huh .

38:15You know a lot about many things . I

38:18think I know a lot about few things .

38:20Cool . I

38:21think I'm very , I know , maybe very ,

38:22very , very modest in this year here ,

38:24but ... of very few things like that . So ,

38:26I'm very curious about my business . I'm

38:29very curious to understand where those

38:32who succeeded succeeded , those who

38:34failed failed , and to delve deeper and

38:37understand the balance sheets of

38:39Brazilian banks , American banks , talk

38:42to people who made mistakes , who got

38:44things right , and so on . And so , I

38:47think I have a very good grasp of my

38:50business ,

38:50yes ,

38:51right ? And I'm perhaps a little less

38:53curious about other topics . It's very

38:58good .

38:58I once saw a documentary about Isaac

39:01Newton . He had two characteristics .

39:03Isaac Newton was curious and observed

39:07nature . That's all he was . And that's

39:09all he did . And that's all that made

39:11him create so many other things , right ?

39:13Curiosity and observation . Curiosity

39:15and observation .

39:16But I think that to have business

39:18success , I think , even using myself as

39:19an example , you don't have to be the

39:21most cultured person in the world . I

39:23think that's great . You can admire

39:25someone who is extremely cultured , they

39:28know a lot , etc. But to

39:30have success in business , you have to

39:31go deep . In your business .

39:33Yes .

39:34Oh , and

39:35the risk , well , where does risk lie in

39:37success , in your , from your point of

39:40view , risk-taking , what is the

39:42proportion , the relationship , the

39:44correlation between risk and success or

39:46growth for the entrepreneur ? You're

39:49dealing with an aggressive guy , Joel ?

39:53Like

39:53a bold guy , an aggressive guy , I don't

39:55know , but someone who takes a lot of

39:58risks . What is , what is your impression

40:01of me ?

40:03I think , do

40:04you think so

40:05in your business ? I think so .

40:07Yeah ,

40:07I thought you were used up at the

40:08beginning .

40:09No , I think that at the beginning , well

40:10, at the beginning I didn't have much

40:11to lose , right ? So , but I , but did you

40:13know that I consider myself

40:15a super conservative businessman ? Look ,

40:17for example , why did I tell you at the

40:18beginning ? At the beginning you went to

40:20one arm , you went to teach , you created

40:23a very strong arm of education for

40:25investment advice .

40:26Yes .

40:27And also the community , society , where

40:29to best allocate their money . It wasn't

40:31, it wasn't obvious .

40:32No , it wasn't obvious . It wasn't

40:34obvious . But , but it started very small

40:35. So , like , I was fired , I

40:38had no salary , I had nothing . I had a

40:40fixed income . I had an idea here . I

40:48think financial education would be

40:49something cool . Let me , let me start a

40:51course here , teach people about a topic

40:53that I think I master . So I made a

40:55course , it worked , and then , like , it

40:56was like that , it was that kind of

40:58atmosphere ,

40:58right ? So , like , I didn't have much to

41:00lose ,

41:00okay ? To protect , but I , but I , being

41:03super conservative in the sense that I

41:06don't remember any big mistakes ,

41:08because everything I've done in life ,

41:11including today , everything started

41:14small ,

41:16okay ?

41:16And the only thing I know is that when

41:17you start something , you're going to

41:19make mistakes a few times ,

41:20right ? Yeah ,

41:21until you start getting it right . And

41:23many times you'll even kill that idea .

41:26And that's why it's important to start

41:28small , because if you build a matrix of

41:29The cost is very high at the beginning ;

41:31these changes are very expensive . It's

41:33almost like learning to navigate an

41:35ocean liner ; the turns will be very

41:37long . So it's better to learn to

41:40navigate a small boat , which is agile ,

41:43you correct quickly , you won't spend so

41:46much fuel , okay ? So , everything I did

41:50— allocating more capital and taking

41:53more risks , putting in more money , more

41:56people — were proven strategies . I

42:00believe that this often destroys

42:01entrepreneurs , because they become

42:03overconfident and end up wanting to

42:05start something that is simply far too

42:07big in such a rush . And then they get

42:09confused because they create a

42:11disproportionate cost matrix , and their

42:15revenue doesn't come in , and they go

42:17bankrupt . Uh-huh . So you have to start

42:19off small , with patience , going both

42:21slowly and quickly . In the beginning ,

42:24slow is fast , right ? Slow , fast , create

42:27a plan , see the opportunity , look at

42:30point B , make it start working , test if

42:37the customer liked it , learn to make

42:43money with it , increase it a little , it

42:45worked ... Increase it a little more ,

42:47then accelerate to maximum intensity .

42:50So you talked about financial education

42:52. When I started XP , my vision of a

42:56commercially efficient company was to

42:59assemble a sales team . Well , back then

43:02you had to have a team of people in

43:04suits . And you had to visit the client

43:06at their home , at their company . I

43:08started doing that , it went wrong , I

43:10stopped . Then I took a course , it

43:13worked , I took another , it worked , I

43:15made money , I took three , I took four ,

43:18I took five , then I took 1000. So , uh ,

43:21if you think about something that works

43:24, I don't think that's being aggressive

43:26. I think that's being conservative ,

43:29because you're accelerating a car that

43:31has proven to work . I

43:33understand .

43:34I think what's aggressive is

43:35accelerating something whose

43:37foundations you haven't guaranteed are

43:39solid .

43:40So , the joke I make is like you're

43:42going to accelerate a car on a mountain

43:45road with fog . No , I'm going to take it

43:47slow . But the road opens up , five lanes

43:49, Germany , you're sitting in a Porsche ,

43:51you can accelerate because you are . In

43:53a good car , a little car in front , you

43:56can accelerate , that's conservative

43:59because you have an open track ,

44:01counterintuitive , but I understand what

44:03you mean .

44:03So , being intense is not the same as

44:05being aggressive , provided that your

44:07intensity is founded upon a thesis that

44:10can actually stand . I got it , I got it ,

44:12I got it . That's

44:13it .

44:13I got it , I got it .

44:14So , an entrepreneur can't be courageous

44:17. An entrepreneur needs to be

44:19conservative . An entrepreneur who is

44:22bold , who takes risks , who is

44:25courageous , who does things on instinct

44:28, in my opinion , has a greater chance

44:32of failing than succeeding .

44:33Very good . Now , a

44:36very good , conscious entrepreneur wants

44:38to be alive in 50 years , so they have

44:40to manage mistakes , manage mistakes

44:42well , and only accelerate when it's

44:44safe , only move forward when it's safe ,

44:46right ? The kind of thing like : " Hey ,

44:48I'm going to . " I think that makes sense

44:51here , it's coherent , there are

44:52benchmarks , I have people . I started ,

44:55it worked , I made money , the margin is

44:56good . People liked it , again , again .

44:59Intense , but intense in something

45:02that's clear . It worked , it opened the

45:04way , opened the way , opened the way .

45:06That's it , that's it , so , you start

45:08eliminating the things that are going

45:10wrong , you encourage the team to take

45:12action , I love people who make mistakes

45:14and become smarter , who don't make the

45:17same mistake , okay ?

45:18So , mistakes are a gift .

45:19Then you proceed by killing off the bad

45:22ideas and you intensify the good ones ,

45:24but those good ideas are truly good ,

45:26for they are entirely solid . So that's

45:29not being conservative , that's not

45:30being aggressive , sorry , that's being

45:32conservative . You're putting money ,

45:34putting capital , people , effort into

45:36something that works . Man , that's not

45:39aggressive . That's being conservative .

45:44So , I consider myself a conservative

45:47guy .

45:47Very good . Very good , man .

45:50Yeah .

45:51Very .

45:53What are you , man ? A conservative guy

45:55or an aggressive guy ? And , man , I'm

45:58intense , but in your view I'm

46:00conservative . Are

46:01you conservative ?

46:02Yeah , I don't take action . No risk .

46:03Ah , then let's make it

46:05better . I don't do things I don't

46:07understand .

46:08I understand . And then I say : " No , here

46:12I know it works . " "

46:14Yeah , it

46:14works great . " For example , in what I

46:16was explaining to you , I know that if I

46:18take care of the mentors , take care of

46:20them , guide them , work with them , train

46:22them , develop them , everything will

46:24improve . And I'm with them all the time

46:26, I'm

46:27not just hanging around , I'm with them .

46:29Then you said , " Wow , but you do

46:31a lot . " It's a lot of just one thing in

46:34the business , which here , uh , what you

46:37put here , which is the three to

46:40infinity , but your concept of the

46:43conservative and the aggressive was

46:46very good . One here is intelligent , the

46:50other here is effort .

46:53Yes , yes . No , the other is courage .

46:56It's not because we entrepreneurs need

46:58to be courageous . Entrepreneurs don't

47:00need courage , they need to be

47:02structured , they need to be coherent ,

47:04they need to know how to control their

47:06instincts and they need to take one

47:08step at a time at the right moment ,

47:10they need to be cold , they need to be

47:12calculating .

47:14Yes ,

47:14and that's it .

47:15Where is the role of maturity in all

47:17this ? Dose , in this recipe ?

47:18No , I even think another cool insight

47:20was , you talked about your business ,

47:22right ? Uh , I've always been very

47:26obsessed with having other types of

47:29revenue , because sometimes we succeed

47:32as entrepreneurs because we had a

47:35significant dose of luck , right ? So ,

47:38from 2002 to 2009 , the Brazilian stock

47:44market went from 8,000 to 70,000 points

47:48. So , you're in the trend of something

47:52...

47:53uh-huh ... that has no competition , or

47:56that ... or what you got way ahead of

47:59makes you ... you found the formula , and

48:02at some point the market changes .

48:06Uh-huh .

48:06Competition arrives , what worked stops

48:09working . So you have to be obsessed . I

48:12believe in that .

48:13How do I build other revenue streams

48:16and make my business more and more

48:18resilient ? Because things change . And

48:21so when I started , my revenue was

48:24basically brokerage . Uh , if I continued

48:29... uh ... just helping people buy and

48:31sell stocks ... Brazil , I would have gone

48:34bankrupt , because brokerage is zero .

48:37Yes . So , things change , competition

48:40arrives , the customer changes their

48:43appetite , and you always have to be

48:45looking for other ways to meet your

48:48audience's needs . So you always have to

48:51be experimenting with new things and

48:52making the business more and more

48:54antifragile over time .

48:56When you say other revenue streams ,

48:57other revenue streams in the business ,

48:59other revenue streams in the business ,

49:00in William's personal business ,

49:01other revenue streams in the business ,

49:03in the business . And then you have an

49:05increasingly complete business , because

49:08if you lose 10 % you still have 90 % , if

49:11you lose 30 % you have 70 % . So how do you

49:14put together a puzzle where you become

49:17more and more

49:19complete , right ? And you keep seeking

49:21ever greater revenue streams so that

49:24your business becomes more and more

49:27antifragile . How do you make your

49:29business built to less , right ? How does

49:31it become built to less ? I need to be

49:33diversified , I need to be resilient , I

49:35need to have other , I need To

49:37complement the experience of my client

49:39who already buys something from me , how

49:41do I offer the next thing , and the next

49:43, and the next ? And each time he's

49:45becoming more loyal to what I want to

49:47do , right ? What I do , actually . Yeah ,

49:50go ahead ,

49:51man . I'm super curious to know about

49:53João Fonseca . Let's

49:54see ,

49:54man . Show it . Go ahead , then .

49:56Put it here . We're

49:57in the middle of recording and we're

49:59drying up . That's right . Let me put the

50:01bot here . Let's put it in . We'll

50:03talk and see . Let's see here .

50:05Met point . Met point now . Met point .

50:08Come on , come on , come on , come on ,

50:10guys . Let's go .

50:14Look , here's his father . Father and

50:16mother . Man , mete point against Jokovit

50:18. That's , that's the real thing .

50:25No , João . That's it . Go on . Wow .

50:31Wow . What a pan here . You can even stop

50:41now .

50:43What is this ?

50:44What is this , man ? No , Joel , what you

50:45did is that you don't follow very

50:47closely . What João did today was

50:50magical .

50:51Magical . What's

50:53his personality like ?

50:55João is a super cool kid . Uh-huh .

51:03Very humble , super focused , only thinks

51:09about tennis . He

51:11wants to be number one in the world . He

51:15doesn't have social media , he has a

51:17girlfriend who is a sweetheart , his

51:20family is spectacular .

51:23He's a super polite , super kind kid .

51:33And he's a kid who loves Brazil . And

51:37when you combine someone who can be a

51:39great champion and someone who echoes

51:42very strong messages , every interview

51:45João gives , he transmits something

51:48very powerful and it's very natural for

51:51him . Yes , I'm reminded a little of

51:53Senna , a little of Guga . Yes . It's the

51:56victory and the message that follows .

51:58It's a message of believing in Brazil ,

52:01it's a message of having hope , it's a

52:03message that we can get there , it only

52:05depends on us . That's what he did today

52:08. He turned around a practically

52:09impossible game against the greatest

52:11player in history . Zhukovit is the

52:13greatest player in history . True .

52:15He went up two sets to zero . And he

52:17came back from three sets to two .

52:19That's awesome . That's inspiring . That

52:22makes Brazilians believe . If this guy

52:24did it , he's Brazilian , I can too .

52:27That's what we said at the beginning

52:29here . It's great that we exalt the true

52:33heroes . These are the heroes .

52:35These are the heroes who make Brazil

52:37succeed . Wow , João is an animal , man .

52:40There are men who change the history of

52:42a country .

52:43Yes ,

52:44there are men , few men , true heroes .

52:48Seno was one of them .

52:49Yeah ,

52:50right ? And again , without wanting to

52:53put all this pressure on João , but

52:56João has the potential to also be a

53:00super idol

53:01because he inspires with his attitude ,

53:02right ? He waits , he waits for victory ,

53:05for performance ,

53:06and he brings a lot of humility and

53:08messages that make us repeat what he

53:11says ,

53:11when he speaks , he conveys serenity , he

53:13conveys tranquility .

53:15Then you look , you look at a game like

53:20today's and see that anything is

53:23possible , because Jovit is 39 years of

53:26age while João is only 19. Uh-huh .

53:30Jovit He's history's greatest champion ,

53:32down two sets to love , he went and

53:34turned it around . That's a message that

53:37needs to be heard on the courts in

53:39Brazil .

53:39Yeah , you're

53:40in a tough spot , man . Let's figure it

53:42out , let's find a way , turn the game

53:43around , do it , find your way .

53:45Find your way , find a path , get

53:48organized , plan , work harder , find your

53:51way , because there's always a way ,

53:54right ? Wow , João , come to the podcast

54:00when you're on vacation , come to the JJ

54:02podcast because I want to interview you

54:04. That's a

54:05real beast ,

54:05come on . That's a beast

54:07when he was all

54:09three of us , huh ?

54:10Let's go .

54:10Yeah , I think if I interviewed you two ,

54:12two athletes . Three athletes , right ?

54:14Three athletes .

54:15Three athletes . I'm in .

54:18Look , playing tennis isn't really my

54:20thing , but I'm hardworking , I put in

54:21the effort . Now , if it's playing tennis

54:24in the pool , I have a better chance .

54:28Man , that's good , man . Well , we stopped

54:31here . We're talking about diversifying

54:35income sources . You said you were

54:38obsessed with it .

54:40The market changes like that , sometimes

54:43you find something new , you find a

54:46trend ,

54:47OK ? a trend and you start to succeed .

54:50Obviously , you had competence , but

54:52you're surfing one thing ,

54:54but the market changes , things change .

54:58Yes .

54:58So you have to be changing before the

55:01changes happen to you . How do you ,

55:03actually , you can't ,

55:05you can't know , you have to , you always

55:07have to , you're always anticipating .

55:09But look , when you follow the PS

55:11philosophy ,

55:12always diversify , the

55:13philosophy of diversification is that

55:15you can never depend on one type of

55:17client , one type of channel , one type

55:19of product , one type of revenue . You

55:21have to be obsessed with becoming more

55:24and more complete .

55:26I know .

55:27Good .

55:28Hmm .

55:29Who is the author you are most inspired

55:31by ? Author ,

55:32author

55:32is ...

55:33Ah , Jane Collins .

55:34Jane Collins , no . Jane Collins shaped

55:36my career . I don't know her .

55:39No , right ? I

55:39don't know her , unfortunately not .

55:41Jorge Paulo Leme knows her well .

55:42Jorge Paulo is a very good friend of

55:43his .

55:44Friend .

55:44Very good friend .

55:45But I learned a lot from Jorge Paulo ,

55:47right ? Jorge is a great friend , he gave

55:49me several insights . Perhaps the most

55:51important of his life .

55:53Yeah , what was it ? He told me a phrase

55:56that is , uh , when you're the owner , at

56:00some point the chair gets too small .

56:05When you're the owner ,

56:06at some point the chair gets too small .

56:11So , I met Jorge about 8 or 9 years ago .

56:17When he was at Maexper , I interviewed

56:20him on stage and he said : " Guilherme ,

56:23you work too much , you won't be able to

56:26make money like that , you're too

56:29involved in the operation . " And what's

56:32the moral of the story of that phrase

56:35he said ? When you're the owner of a

56:38company , you have to fulfill several

56:40rituals , right ? Because you must have

56:42several rituals .

56:43You talk to clients , the sales team ,

56:45the commercial team , finance , right ?

56:47Etc.

56:48You can't focus , perhaps too much time ,

56:50on the things you think are most

56:53relevant , because you have to fulfill

56:55others . Tasks . So , you have to fulfill

56:58several rituals . And when you're the

57:02owner , you put someone better than you

57:04in charge of the day-to-day operations ,

57:06theoretically you have quality time ,

57:08right ?

57:08You can focus more on the topics that

57:11you find most important , which is

57:13something that you cannot do , because

57:15you have to perform a wide variety of

57:18different rituals . So , at some point ,

57:21it's better to learn to make the

57:23transition yourself , learn to put

57:26someone better than you in charge so

57:28that you can have quality time , so that

57:31you can see the bigger picture better .

57:35Oh , it's like those war movies . I love

57:38war movies , those old movies where

57:41there's a general sitting on a horse on

57:44top of a hill . Why is that ? Because he

57:46can see the battle from above . Uh-huh .

57:48He can have the serenity to move the

57:51board well , right ? A year or two ago , I

57:56spent months focused on the topic of

57:58artificial intelligence . If I were that

58:02game , you wouldn't succeed .

58:04Yes , you wouldn't . So , in a company ,

58:06there are very few things that make a

58:08big difference . Very few things , and I

58:11would say that most CEOs , myself

58:15included , are forced to divide their

58:17time in a more socialist way . Even

58:20though he is very disciplined and

58:21incredibly organized , he is still

58:23unable to remain focused on a single

58:25topic for six months . Exactly ,

58:27because other things depend on them . So

58:30, today I feel much more productive . I

58:34realize that , as I was , I spent a lot

58:36of time on things that weren't

58:38necessary . I think that the exercise of

58:40asking yourself whether the time and

58:43the things that I am doing are truly

58:45necessary , or if I could delegate them ,

58:47or even whether I should involve myself

58:50in this topic , is quite valuable . But

58:52still , as if you have to follow certain

59:02internal rituals that the owner doesn't

59:04need . The owner can focus on what they

59:07think is most important , spend as much

59:09time as they want on it . And so , these

59:13days I am capable of being much more

59:16productive than I am . Obviously , this

59:19only works because I have a CEO who I

59:21think is brilliant and

59:22who manages the day-to-day better than

59:24I do . You see , given that ... Interesting

59:26, João . When we went public , we went

59:29public six years ago , seven this year .

59:322019 , right ?

59:38Great . I am an investor

59:44because you tell your story , you are

59:55involved in the day-to-day operations ,

59:58so your IPO was larger and more highly

1:00:01valued than if an executive were here ;

1:00:04a total knockout . But read this article

1:00:07. It showed that after 3 years , if the

1:00:10CEO remains the founder , in 70 % of cases

1:00:13, the company performs worse than if it

1:00:16had an executive . And in 6 years , in 95

1:00:19% of cases , the company performs worse

1:00:22than if it had an executive . So , what

1:00:24is the ... Moral of the story ? The bigger

1:00:28and more complex your business gets ,

1:00:30the

1:00:31more you need to be a manager and less

1:00:35of an entrepreneur . Not that you stop

1:00:38being entrepreneurial , but you have to

1:00:40be increasingly skilled in management .

1:00:43And entrepreneurs are very instinctive .

1:00:45When you go public , the company becomes

1:00:47much , much more complex . If you

1:00:50continue to use your instincts in

1:00:52everything , you will make more mistakes

1:00:53than you get right . And then you break

1:00:56your own company . So you need to

1:00:59realize , understand these things a

1:01:01little , right ? Understand that even you

1:01:04, as a leader , as an executor , as a CEO

1:01:06, etc. , have an expiration date .

1:01:09Everyone has an expiration date in this

1:01:11world . It's not very difficult to be a

1:01:13CEO who lives from 20 to 80 years old .

1:01:16And even if you are that , you certainly

1:01:18won't be optimizing the business

1:01:21journey of your company . You have to

1:01:24learn to change the pieces , including

1:01:26yourself .

1:01:28Benall , you've clearly put more content

1:01:31on the internet , you're producing more

1:01:34content . Why did you make that decision

1:01:36? Because I compete against a sector ...

1:01:43Yes , it's very strong , there's a lot of

1:01:47money , but in a way it's a sector that

1:01:51doesn't have a face , a very

1:01:53institutionalized sector , and I think

1:01:57one of my biggest , I think every

1:02:00entrepreneur's biggest differentiator

1:02:04is their face . And it's very good when

1:02:07you compete against a sector where you

1:02:14have a competitor who can't show their

1:02:16face because they don't have one . So ,

1:02:19in my opinion , you invest in those you

1:02:22trust , and you trust those whom you

1:02:25happen to know . Well ,

1:02:27so I think every entrepreneur ... I think

1:02:30the times when you hired a television

1:02:32artist , did a campaign with an agency

1:02:35and put it on TV , for me that , that

1:02:37doesn't connect anymore , that doesn't

1:02:40engage anymore , because people know

1:02:42it's not real . It's not

1:02:45true . So people today want , even if the

1:02:48person stutters , even if the person

1:02:50speaks like this , people want real

1:02:52connections ,

1:02:53because if you show your face it's

1:02:55because you trust your product .

1:02:57And that creates a super genuine

1:02:59connection that is yours .

1:03:01Yes .

1:03:02So times have changed nowadays .

1:03:03Nowadays , nowadays you have To show

1:03:05your face , you have to be there , you

1:03:07have to be there , you have to be

1:03:09talking , you have to be explaining , you

1:03:10have to be showing who you are inside .

1:03:13You have to open your home sometimes .

1:03:15And you have to have fun with it ,

1:03:18because that's how clients connect ,

1:03:20because nowadays the noise is so loud

1:03:23that if you're not original , the client

1:03:26will leave , right ? So I think the

1:03:28difference we have compared to banks is

1:03:30that we are a company of owners who

1:03:32show their face and are involved in the

1:03:35day-to-day operations , right ? And I see

1:03:37today that there are many entrepreneurs

1:03:39who don't , and you master this topic

1:03:41much better than I do , right ?

1:03:42Absolutely . But , but I think that the

1:03:45entrepreneur who is shy , who wants to

1:03:47be on the low profile , right ?

1:03:50No profile .

1:03:51It's nothing . Zero .

1:03:52No , for me it doesn't work anymore . It

1:03:55doesn't

1:03:55work anymore .

1:03:56You have to expose yourself . You have

1:03:58to expose yourself .

1:03:59Oh , but I'm shy . Patience ,

1:04:01man .

1:04:01You want to be shy , you'll become

1:04:03something else . But If you want to be

1:04:05an entrepreneur , you have to learn how

1:04:06to tell the story . You must learn how

1:04:07to tell the story . You have to learn

1:04:08how to connect . You have to learn how

1:04:10to be a face . You have to learn how to

1:04:12handle pressure , because sometimes

1:04:14there's a crisis , there's confusion ,

1:04:15right ? So , different times ,

1:04:19different times . And you're doing great

1:04:21, you're doing well .

1:04:22It's cool because it brings back good

1:04:23energy , right ? You feel it , right ? It's

1:04:25something that shows you're strong ,

1:04:27you impact people , right ? You impact

1:04:29them , you make a genuine connection . I

1:04:31am not really a salesperson , but I

1:04:33think that I have always been good at

1:04:34making sales . I think my way of

1:04:36approaching sales is to help someone .

1:04:39If you help someone without asking for

1:04:41anything in return , you'll sell like

1:04:43nobody else . So , you being a good

1:04:46person , who transmits good content , who

1:04:49wants to help , who

1:04:51wants to help , who wants to do the

1:04:52right thing , isn't that so ? There's a

1:04:54phrase I always use , right , which is

1:04:56the broken-down car on the road . You

1:04:58know that ?

1:04:58No ,

1:04:59right ? If you break down a car on the

1:05:01road and sit down ... If you're stuck in

1:05:03a hood needing aid , no one helps . You

1:05:07ask for help , " Help me , help me . "

1:05:09Nobody , nobody will help you . But if

1:05:11you start pushing the car without

1:05:13asking for help , people will start

1:05:15pushing the car with you . What's the

1:05:18moral of the story ? If you're chasing

1:05:20after it , you're doing the right thing ,

1:05:22you're helping others , people will help

1:05:25you because people are good , people are

1:05:28kind . And so , for me , that was my way

1:05:32of selling , of helping . And again , a

1:05:34bit of the social aspect . That's it . In

1:05:36the social aspect , you're helping ,

1:05:38you're bringing content , you're telling

1:05:40your story , you're showing your

1:05:42mistakes and successes , you're learning

1:05:44, you're teaching your lessons . And

1:05:48then : wow , people look at that and

1:05:50think , wow , this Joel is cool , wow ,

1:05:52this guy is helping me , wow , let me

1:05:54help back . Yes , that's

1:05:55how it works .

1:05:56Yes , yes . It's human nature .

1:05:59Yeah ,

1:06:00man , very cool . XP's big dream . You , as

1:06:05a person who ... Show your vision , what

1:06:09are the milestones you want to achieve ?

1:06:14Look , what I am wanting to do is simply

1:06:16to continue to keep improving .

1:06:19Everything I do , I want to keep

1:06:20improving . That's the real dream .

1:06:23Uh-huh . It's about buying the infinite

1:06:25game and continuing to improve . So ,

1:06:28this year I'm turning 50 , 25 years with

1:06:30the company . I love what I do , I love

1:06:33my company , I want to stay here until

1:06:35the end of time ,

1:06:36so keep improving . If I continue to

1:06:39improve , in 50 years we will be much

1:06:41bigger and much better , and we will

1:06:44make a significant impact on society

1:06:46and so on . Obviously , we have

1:06:48medium-term goals , so that is where

1:06:51our competitive spirit comes into play ,

1:06:53wouldn't you say ? Uh-huh .

1:06:54And when I started the company , I

1:06:55wanted to be the biggest brokerage firm

1:06:56in Brazil .

1:06:57Uh-huh .

1:06:58We set a goal that was a super big

1:07:00dream , which was to reach 1 trillion in

1:07:02assets . Uh-huh .

1:07:04Apparently , those were impossible goals

1:07:05, right ? And we set a goal now , which

1:07:08was to be the biggest investment

1:07:10company in Brazil by 2023. But those

1:07:12are medium-term goals . The deadline is

1:07:15important , but the principle is to

1:07:16keep improving , to

1:07:17keep improving everything we do .

1:07:19Everything we do , I mean , everything we

1:07:21do , what we do best is a seven out of

1:07:22ten . That's good . Because the concept

1:07:25of excellence , right ? All companies

1:07:27that have excellence , they think about

1:07:29improving , right ? They don't think

1:07:31about being excellent , they always

1:07:32think about improving , improving .

1:07:33That's it . Improvement ,

1:07:34continuous improvement . In continuous

1:07:36improvement , soon it's considered an

1:07:37excellent company ,

1:07:38but it thinks like this : everything I

1:07:41do is average ,

1:07:42and I have to raise the bar higher and

1:07:43higher . I , as a human being , am also

1:07:46average ; I need to improve more and

1:07:48more . And if the team buys into this

1:07:50concept , regardless of short-term goals

1:07:53, you will always continue to grow .

1:07:55You talk a lot about the team ; I think

1:08:0070 % of what you say here is about the

1:08:02team , the team , people . What are the

1:08:04three non-negotiable things for you ?

1:08:05But what I want to know is this : when

1:08:08hiring , when promoting , and when firing

1:08:11. Things like that , you don't neglect ,

1:08:14you don't neglect . You are ... Relentless

1:08:16, you're obsessed with your leadership ,

1:08:18you say the culture at XP is like this

1:08:21in relation to people .

1:08:23Look , uh , our meritocracy is applied to

1:08:28everyone in the company , there are six

1:08:30layers of the company , right ? So

1:08:33there's a CEO and five others below him

1:08:34. Everyone has goals , and all goals are

1:08:37considered impossible . There are

1:08:39quantitative goals . Quantitative goals

1:08:42are goals that are three to six , three

1:08:44to five . Three to six goals , okay ?

1:08:47Uh , and everyone , equally important ,

1:08:51has behavioral goals , cultural goals ,

1:08:55right ? So you asked : " What is

1:09:00fundamental ? " Well , the company has

1:09:03four values : big dreams , open minds ,

1:09:06entrepreneurial spirit , and customer

1:09:09focus . Big dreams , we only work with

1:09:12people who believe that impossible

1:09:14things are possible and that within the

1:09:16four lines they can get there .

1:09:20Open-minded people , intellectually

1:09:22humble people , who are always learning ,

1:09:24who make mistakes , but correct them

1:09:26quickly . People with an entrepreneurial

1:09:29spirit , people who don't point out

1:09:31flaws but always bring solutions , and

1:09:33people who love to delight the customer

1:09:35. These four things I've told you are

1:09:38the company's values , but the best way

1:09:40to get to know Guilherme is ... is me .

1:09:43That's right .

1:09:43I understand .

1:09:44Nobody doubts that at the company .

1:09:46I understand . And when you hire , you

1:09:49have to bring in people who believe in

1:09:51these four things . You have to

1:09:55understand that this person , you have

1:09:57to look for behaviors that prove they

1:10:01really dream big , that they are

1:10:03open-minded , that they have an

1:10:05entrepreneurial spirit , etc. You have

1:10:07to look for people who are committed to

1:10:09the long-term journey and people who

1:10:16know how to generate performance , right

1:10:18? So that is the way we hire , and we

1:10:20only allow people to move up within the

1:10:22company structure . Moving up in the

1:10:24company means gaining more mandate ,

1:10:25making money . Uh-huh .

1:10:28It means becoming a partner , those two

1:10:30very important things , achieving goals ,

1:10:32and having a high culture score . So ,

1:10:35what is unacceptable ? A brilliant

1:10:37person . And we've had a few like that ,

1:10:40the guy is brilliant , spectacular ,

1:10:42incredibly intelligent . He does much

1:10:46more than we expect , but he doesn't

1:10:49have the right culture ,

1:10:51right ? He

1:10:53delivers his part , but he stifles the

1:10:55rest ,

1:10:56right ? That's

1:10:57unacceptable . That person is out , just

1:10:59like someone who is very high in terms

1:11:00of culture

1:11:01but doesn't deliver what needs to be

1:11:04delivered .

1:11:04So , when we find them , we have these

1:11:06two things ; this person rises ,

1:11:08rises ,

1:11:09and then there is an internal dynamic

1:11:11where the new Darwin continues moving

1:11:13forward along the

1:11:14way .

1:11:14Only the people who deliver the most

1:11:16results , who make things happen , who

1:11:18have performance , and who increasingly

1:11:20have the right culture rise . And then

1:11:22again , you have an increasingly

1:11:24high-performing team , and the culture

1:11:25goes down . So , that's how

1:11:30we find the right people , that's how we

1:11:33make the right team rise in the company

1:11:35. And again , it's a lot of conversation

1:11:44, a lot of conversation with the team

1:11:46to show that life goes by fast , right ?

1:11:51And it's great that you leave something

1:11:53here that you're proud of . Uh-huh .

1:11:55Obviously you want to have a good

1:11:57quality of life , obviously you want to

1:12:00travel , you want to do those things ,

1:12:02but you have a family , but it's great

1:12:04to have a life project that can

1:12:06complement your family , and that's

1:12:08great . So , uh , I can't see myself

1:12:11outside the company , and I work with

1:12:13people who also believe in the same

1:12:15thing , right , that we have fun with our

1:12:18business . And these goals considered

1:12:21impossible , this term " considered , "

1:12:24explain that to me , because every

1:12:27company has inertia . Uh-huh . If you

1:12:31don't ask for something that can only

1:12:34be done if the person pulls a rabbit

1:12:37out of a hat , you'll never measure if

1:12:40the person is really competent , because

1:12:43everything has inertia , right ? Your

1:12:46sales director , he sits here , and the

1:12:48business starts dripping .

1:12:50Okay , but how do I know if my sales

1:12:53director generates alpha or sub beta ?

1:12:56That's common , okay ? The person sits in

1:12:59the chair and suffocates . And she puts

1:13:01her butt on the wall . I want people who

1:13:05have the courage to take risks in the

1:13:08right way , obviously they have opinions

1:13:10, they do things differently . For that ,

1:13:13we have to have a more audacious goal

1:13:16to force the person to think

1:13:18differently , to bring new ideas , to

1:13:20take risks , right ? To learn to take

1:13:22risks . And then you realize that after

1:13:25a while there are people who do this

1:13:28consistently . Uh-huh . There are people

1:13:30who consistently find ways and those

1:13:33are the magicians . And when you stop

1:13:36acting after a while , you're only

1:13:38working with magicians , only with

1:13:41people who need that . The person wants

1:13:43to dream big , the person doesn't want

1:13:45to just go to the corner bakery , the

1:13:47person wants to build a rocket that

1:13:49goes to Mars . And I'll say more , okay ?

1:13:52A company that doesn't dream big

1:13:55doesn't grow . A company that doesn't

1:13:59grow doesn't generate opportunities . A

1:14:02company that doesn't generate

1:14:03opportunities creates a diverse natural

1:14:05selection , the good people leave . So

1:14:07you have to dream big . Dreaming big is

1:14:09defensive . Because dreaming big makes

1:14:11people , man , this company here has a

1:14:14different kind of drive . I want to stay

1:14:17here because opportunities will arise ,

1:14:20and if you don't make the company grow ,

1:14:23the good team will leave . Today , I

1:14:25think the biggest competition an

1:14:27entrepreneur faces isn't their

1:14:28competitor anymore , it's the

1:14:29opportunity cost of their employee

1:14:30leaving and starting their own business

1:14:31, because entrepreneurship is very easy

1:14:33today .

1:14:33Yes .

1:14:34So you have to make them

1:14:35entrepreneurial along with you . You

1:14:37have to ensure that things continue to

1:14:39grow and advance more and more , because

1:14:41that is exactly what makes new

1:14:42opportunities arise for you . Everyone

1:14:45busy doing things better and bigger . So

1:14:51, dreaming big is defensive . Oh , and

1:14:54you force the person to bring different

1:14:57things .

1:14:58Talk more about that . Dreaming big is

1:15:00defensive . Defensive .

1:15:01Wow , you're taking a beating .

1:15:03Your great defensiveness . Being big

1:15:04isn't

1:15:05dreaming big , it's defensive .

1:15:06It's defensive , man . Dreaming small is

1:15:09defensive . If you start dreaming small

1:15:12in your company , what's going to happen

1:15:15to the really good people here ? I'll

1:15:17start falling for your competitor's

1:15:21line . Let's say , " Hey , if this is what

1:15:23I'm here for ,

1:15:24let me work somewhere else . " Uh-huh .

1:15:28You have to make the team pulse along

1:15:29with you . Uh-huh .

1:15:31And you will not necessarily reach the

1:15:33stars , but you are going to land

1:15:35somewhere close to them , right ? Uh-huh .

1:15:38So , this forces people to bring

1:15:40different ideas . You make people feel

1:15:43alive because they can create together

1:15:46with you , right ? You transform people ;

1:15:49people don't just become a number that

1:15:51you have to take orders for . Look here ,

1:15:53if you don't take risks , if you don't

1:15:57have initiative , we won't get there .

1:16:00You have to learn to find different

1:16:03paths . This makes the person feel like

1:16:05an intrapreneur . They think , " Hey , this

1:16:08depends on me , I'll find a way . " And

1:16:11then you keep learning , you'll get the

1:16:12best out of every human being . And in

1:16:14the end , Joel , there are people much

1:16:16better than us , man . Much better .

1:16:18We just have to know how to

1:16:20tell the right stories , right ? And then

1:16:23, then you'll form this team of

1:16:25magicians . Everything in life is about

1:16:30good people . So ,

1:16:32how are you going to get the best

1:16:34people to want to work alongside you ?

1:16:37Go to the moon in a rocket , otherwise

1:16:39the good guy will leave , man . He'll

1:16:41leave .

1:16:42The good guy wants the runway . He wants

1:16:44the runway , he wants action .

1:16:46Yeah .

1:16:46So , what happens to a company that

1:16:48doesn't grow ? Only the weak remain .

1:16:51Only

1:16:51the weak remain .

1:16:52And that's it . So you have to dream big

1:16:56and you have to succeed . If you don't

1:16:59succeed , if you don't grow , the

1:17:00business is over , because only the weak

1:17:03remain . So being big is defensive .

1:17:05Growing is defensive . I'll write that

1:17:09down . You have to write it down too .

1:17:11Growing is defensive . Wow , growing is

1:17:19defensive . Yeah . Putting energy into

1:17:24the business is conservative . It's

1:17:28about

1:17:28that business that works .

1:17:30Being intense

1:17:32is different from being aggressive ;

1:17:33being intense about something that

1:17:38works is defensive . Accelerating in a

1:17:41German state with a little girl in

1:17:43front , putting 300 km / h in the car is

1:17:45defensive , it's conservative . But

1:17:47driving at 100 km / h in the mountains

1:17:49with fog is super aggressive .

1:17:52Accelerating the car when the track

1:17:54opens up is super defensive . You did

1:17:56one thing , it worked , you did two , it

1:17:57worked , you did five , it worked , you do

1:17:59500

1:18:01and extract value from that . There's a

1:18:03lot there to explore , you

1:18:04maximize that , you

1:18:05maximize that .

1:18:05And you go on , and you diversify , and

1:18:07you make your margin more and more

1:18:09solid , and you build the team , and you

1:18:11worry about doing other things that

1:18:13complement the customer experience , and

1:18:15you build customer loyalty , and you

1:18:17generate more and more revenue , have

1:18:19fewer and fewer expenses , and leave

1:18:21your customer more and more satisfied ,

1:18:23and you have more and more consistent

1:18:25net profit over time . Fifteen years ago

1:18:28, I was making $ 25 million in net

1:18:30profit . 15 years later , I made over 5

1:18:33B.

1:18:33Uh-huh .

1:18:34And that was the formula . That formula

1:18:37works for anything .

1:18:39What was your sequence ?

1:18:40In what sense ?

1:18:41Remember you talked about sequence ?

1:18:42Knowing those companies that succeeded

1:18:45and seeing what the sequence was . What

1:18:47was that sequence to go from $ 25 to $

1:18:505 billion ?

1:18:51The sequence was until 2010. So , from a

1:18:54business point of view , right ? Until

1:18:562010 , I competed in the addressable

1:18:58market for equity brokerage . It was a

1:19:01super restricted market . Then after

1:19:032010 , I understood the importance of

1:19:05competing in the investment segment as

1:19:08a whole .

1:19:09So , I expanded TAN and started

1:19:11distributing fixed income , funds ,

1:19:13pension plans , insurance , etc. And then

1:19:15I realized the importance of offering

1:19:18this client a complete experience with

1:19:20a bank , checking accounts , credit cards

1:19:22, an international bank , etc. I'm

1:19:24increasingly building loyalty with this

1:19:26investment group and helping them

1:19:28achieve a more complete financial life

1:19:31with us . After doing all that , I

1:19:33realized that this same structure

1:19:35allows me to do the same thing with

1:19:37entrepreneurs and also serve companies .

1:19:40So we set up a wholesale bank that also

1:19:42started providing credit , helping

1:19:44companies better manage their cash flow

1:19:49, and complementing this experience

1:19:50over time . And then again , the company

1:19:52became increasingly diversified ,

1:19:54and things were done in sequence ,

1:19:57following the " low-priced fruit "

1:19:59principle . " Now , after this , this is

1:20:03where there's more revenue , less effort

1:20:07. "

1:20:07Always ,

1:20:08always , always . Entrepreneurs need to

1:20:11be lazy . I know that phrase is ... No , no

1:20:14, another

1:20:14no .

1:20:15No , but why lazy ?

1:20:18Because

1:20:19you have to find an easier way , right ? "

1:20:21High-priced fruit , I'll get high-priced

1:20:23fruit later . " " Let's set up a branch

1:20:26in Singapore ? " " No , no . " "

1:20:29Let's dominate Campinas . " " Yes , it's

1:20:31easier . " So , as an entrepreneur , you

1:20:33have to know where to allocate your

1:20:35time and energy so you can optimize

1:20:38your entrepreneurial journey . Because

1:20:40if you start doing things out of order ,

1:20:43if you start doing even the right

1:20:45things but in the wrong sequence ,

1:20:47you're leaving room for error , right ?

1:20:52If I do something more difficult before

1:20:55something easier , what does that cost

1:20:59me ? Margin . If I do the easier thing

1:21:01before the harder thing , what do I gain

1:21:03? Margin .

1:21:05Yes .

1:21:05And I'll have a happier client sooner

1:21:07because I'm on the right track . So you

1:21:10have to have this long-term plan and

1:21:12create priorities over time . The

1:21:15ability to allocate capital — and this

1:21:17is something I only learned over time

1:21:18— is key . What sequence will you use

1:21:22to allocate capital , energy , and people

1:21:23? Does this sequence make sense ? Is it

1:21:26coherent ? Is it optimizing your

1:21:28entrepreneurial journey ? Yes ,

1:21:32because the CEO's role is to allocate

1:21:34the company's scarce resources well ,

1:21:37right ?

1:21:37Ah , priorities , what are the priorities

1:21:39?

1:21:39And why is it a priority ? What is the

1:21:43priority and why is it a priority ,

1:21:44right ? And when you establish this

1:21:47internal operating mode , people

1:21:48understand the reasons why they are

1:21:50doing this specific thing right now

1:21:52instead of doing that other one . You're

1:21:54going to say , " Look , today's priority

1:21:56is this . If you can prove to me that

1:21:58you have something better than this ,

1:22:00we'll do it , " but that's the

1:22:01entrepreneurial mindset we're putting

1:22:03in place . We're optimizing the

1:22:04entrepreneurial journey .

1:22:06It's important to build customer

1:22:07loyalty , it's important to have a solid

1:22:09margin , it's important to have

1:22:10continuity . Guilherme Bentim , what a

1:22:15conversation , man . Yeah , it

1:22:16was a really good conversation .

1:22:17Oh my god . It

1:22:18was with João Fonseca still winning ,

1:22:20so , damn , it was memorable , man .

1:22:22It was memorable , wasn't it ? Memorable ,

1:22:23damn . Memorable ,

1:22:24are you crazy ? Oh my

1:22:25god , man . Brother , thank you for coming

1:22:28.

1:22:28Thank you , man . Wow , it was a pleasure ,

1:22:29man . I loved it , I adored it . I learned

1:22:31so much . I learned so much . I learned a

1:22:33lot . I'm going to revisit my notes .

1:22:35It's about

1:22:36marking the push-ups one day , right ? Or

1:22:37maybe I ...

1:22:38No , you've changed a lot .

1:22:39Oh , there's

1:22:40going to be a new book , Delin . There's

1:22:41going to be a book ?

1:22:42Book by book . I think there's a

1:22:44little bit this week .

1:22:46This week , this year ,

1:22:50these guys . Oh , okay . Yeah ,

1:22:53write , man .

1:22:54Learning this from you , right ? Five

1:22:56great books already .

1:22:57Already one . Damn , man .

1:23:01I like it .

1:23:01But I am , man , I'm a super fan , okay ?

1:23:03The work you do in Brazil is really

1:23:05special , man .

1:23:05Thank you .

1:23:06You inspire , you bring quality

1:23:08knowledge , you make us better as

1:23:09entrepreneurs . So , so count on me and

1:23:12keep going strong , man .

1:23:14Thank you . And you too .

1:23:16Unconditional support . I always follow

1:23:18you , I always quote you , and it's a

1:23:20pleasure to have you here for people to

1:23:23share .

1:23:23Before we do the last one , Timol , uh ,

1:23:26social media for people to follow you ,

1:23:28to keep up with you .

1:23:29@gilhermebol , please . So , so follow me

1:23:31there , keep up with me .

1:23:33Where are you ? Are you on Instagram ?

1:23:34I'm on Instagram and LinkedIn .

1:23:36And LinkedIn .

1:23:37LinkedIn .

1:23:38YouTube

1:23:39is YouTube . We're doing it soon , right ?

1:23:41It'll be there soon .

1:23:41We're doing it soon . Yeah , follow your

1:23:44path , right ? We're going to copy those

1:23:45who succeed , right ? That's it . You're a

1:23:47copier , an improver . A

1:23:48born copier . A born copier .

1:23:50Intelligent . Oh , it's low-level fruit .

1:23:52Low-level fruit .

1:23:53Logical . It's a sequence .

1:23:56Grem . It's like this . Uh , the question

1:23:58I always ask is like this : If you could

1:24:00send a message to 8 billion people ,

1:24:02which is the number of people in the

1:24:03world , this message will arrive

1:24:05directly and straight , short and sweet .

1:24:07Bang , boom , 8 billion people . 8 billion

1:24:10. What message would that be ? Be

1:24:13correct . But it's just one message .

1:24:19That's all . So , okay . Be correct , then .

1:24:21Be correct .

1:24:21Be correct . We're

1:24:23going to do the following , look . We

1:24:24took some photos . Okay , so I'm going to

1:24:27ask you to write " be right " on the back

1:24:29of this photo , and we're going to draw

1:24:31a winner from the JJ Podcast .

1:24:32Wow , you guys are quick here , huh ?

1:24:33Write it on the back and I'll do it .

1:24:34Yes . Be right . I once heard someone

1:24:42very special to me , Altamiro . Altamiro

1:24:46Bezerra . Altamiro Bezerra is the CEO of

1:24:49Neymar's entire ecosystem . Neymar

1:24:51father , Neymar son . He said , " Jal ,

1:24:54there are only two ways to do things in

1:24:56life , the right way and the wrong way .

1:24:58" Yeah , he's

1:24:58teaching me , follow the path of truth .

1:25:00Yeah , be right , be right with your

1:25:02family , with your friends , with your

1:25:04work , with society . Be right . If you

1:25:07are right , we are going to have a world

1:25:10that is better and better . Better and

1:25:12better .

1:25:13Wow , I loved it , man . Look , the photo

1:25:14turned out

1:25:15great . We're going to raffle this photo

1:25:17off for you guys . The rules will be on

1:25:19the feed . Follow Bent Mall , message him

1:25:22, share , comment , let him feel the

1:25:25power of the JJ Podcast , let him know

1:25:27how much he contributed to your life ,

1:25:29your entrepreneurial life , your

1:25:31personal life , the decisions you made .

1:25:34I made several decisions here . I always

1:25:36make decisions , I'm always here with an

1:25:38open heart , teachable , an empty cup .

1:25:40Thank you for coming . Thank you . It was

1:25:42a pleasure to have you here . Pleasure .

1:25:43Thank you . That's it , guys . See you on

1:25:45the next JJ Podcast . A hug . Thanks . Bye

1:25:48. Thanks .