Full transcript
0:00Ayawaska is not for everybody.
0:02I don't think I heal your lives, but I
0:06see myself just laying dead.
0:12Welcome to Iawaska Stories by Plant
0:14Medicine Global, a podcast about real
0:16journeys with one of the most powerful
0:18plant medicines on Earth. Each episode,
0:21we hear the story of one ceremony that
0:23changed somebody's life. I am your host
0:25John and today we're speaking to Katya
0:27who will share one ceremony that had a
0:29profound impact on her life. Welcome
0:30Katia. Now before we dive into the
0:33ceremony details, can you tell me a
0:34little bit about your life uh prior to
0:36this particular experience that we're
0:38talking about?
0:39>> Hi John. Thank you for having me today
0:41on your podcast. Um yes my life before
0:44the ceremony this particular ceremony I
0:46want to share today was um I was kind of
0:49in this transitional period of my life
0:51where I still lived in Ukraine. It was
0:542021
0:56and by that time I have already had
0:59experiences with the medicine. I have
1:01been drinking for 10 years and it was a
1:05very kind of already dark times in
1:08Ukraine. So I decided to pack up
1:11everything, sell my business and get my
1:15partner at the time and my daughter and
1:17to move to South America. So I left
1:21everything that I had and I took off on
1:25this journey. I didn't know what is
1:27going to bring me to.
1:30>> Okay. So you said you had at this point
1:31you'd had around 10 years experience
1:33with um you know with with with Iawaska.
1:37Um you know take us back 10 years. How
1:39did you first hear about Iawaska?
1:42>> To be honest I don't really know because
1:45that was the time where nobody talked
1:48about Iawaska. It wasn't as popular.
1:50There were certainly no people from my
1:52community doing awaska. I think the
1:55first time I heard it, I was 17 years
1:57old and I don't really know how I ended
2:00up coming to this path, but I think that
2:04was something that kind of drawn me in
2:08because I've heard that there is a
2:09tradition of shamanism in South America
2:12and that was something that I resonated
2:14with for whatever reason.
2:17And in 2011,
2:21um, I decided to go to Peru and there
2:24was no retreat center, no place. I knew
2:28I just went with a friend of mine. And
2:30when we ended up in Peru, we started
2:32looking for people and asking where to
2:35do the ceremony. And I don't recommend
2:38doing that, [laughter]
2:40but this is how I ended up having my
2:44first experience. And what made you
2:46decide to try Iaska?
2:48>> I was growing up not really having any
2:51spiritual background. My family, my
2:53parents, they are Orthodox Christian and
2:56I wasn't brought up in a Christian
2:58tradition. Yes, we celebrated some major
3:01holidays, but I didn't have like a
3:03relationship with God. And I felt in my
3:07being that I needed that because I was
3:11going through life not really having
3:13that foundation.
3:14and Ayawasa seemed like something that
3:18could give me that base.
3:21>> And back then, were you searching for
3:23healing or, you know, personal
3:25development? I mean, what exactly were
3:26you searching for?
3:28>> I feel like for me there was a lot of
3:30curiosity. I was just very drawn to this
3:33whole tradition
3:34and
3:36obviously I felt quite unsettled in
3:39life. I was young. I felt like I didn't
3:42have a structure to my personality
3:46and I was looking for something to give
3:50me the answers about myself because at
3:53that time I was already depressed and
3:56not quite happy being in weird circles
4:00people you know living completely
4:02different lifestyle and I felt that I
4:05can do better with myself. I can do
4:07better in life and I just need some
4:10tools. I need some knowledge that can
4:12show me the path.
4:15>> So, take me back to the time when you uh
4:17you arrived to Peru for the first time,
4:19you know, looking for somewhere to to
4:21sit with Iawaska. Did you have any fears
4:23or doubts?
4:24>> No, because there was no information
4:26about Iawaska back then. Like, we didn't
4:28even know what we were doing. We just
4:29knew that this is something that we
4:31really want to do and we were very
4:34curious and we were very trusting and
4:37it's we I'm lucky that we ended up in a
4:40good place, you know, with good shamans.
4:43Um but yeah, no no idea what was
4:47happening [laughter] at the time. It's
4:49quite crazy actually now when I think
4:52about it.
4:52>> Did you prepare in any way uh such as
4:55like a diet or or anything else? I
4:59usually prepare very like my usual
5:01preparation for aaska is very deep and I
5:04was taught by ship people tribe how to
5:07prepare for the ceremony and the
5:09tradition that I do it usually it's uh
5:12no salt no sugar no coffee no oil
5:16nothing fried no animal products no sex
5:20so you remove completely all the
5:22destructions from your field and that
5:25helps you to go very deep with the
5:27medicine.
5:30>> Okay. So, um take us now 10 years on um
5:34to the ceremony that we're going to
5:36speak about today.
5:37>> Um what were your expectations going
5:39into this particular ceremony?
5:41>> So, that was a retreat I was organizing
5:44for other people with indigenous masters
5:47and I was there as a facilitator and uh
5:51but I was also doing my planeta and
5:54plietta was taking two months. So I was
5:57very very prepared and very deep in the
6:01process because that was my second
6:03retreat in a row and honestly that was a
6:07part that was a part of my job. So I
6:10didn't feel like something extraordinary
6:13is going to happen because I was also
6:15there for other people.
6:17>> Uh just for those that aren't you know
6:19familiar with with Iawaska can you
6:21explain a little bit more about the
6:22plantetta and what that is? Yeah. So,
6:24plantetta is the part of uh
6:26apprenticeship with indigenous teachers
6:29is when you take when you drink other
6:32plants that are not psychedelic and
6:34depending on your goal or depending what
6:36your shaman sees in you, they kind of
6:39prescribe you the plant or the root of a
6:42certain tree or a bush whatever might be
6:45acceptable for you. And this diet
6:49requires very strict also diet before
6:52very strict preparation where you don't
6:55really communicate with other people.
6:57You stay a lot in solitude. You have a
7:00very strict food diet. You basically eat
7:04boiled vegetables and rice without any
7:07salt or oil. So [laughter]
7:09>> sounds very nice.
7:10>> Yes, that was already my fun for 2
7:12months. And you know, I was going into
7:15that ceremony feeling so ready and so
7:17prepared also because I've done it so
7:20many times. I didn't know that something
7:23can shift in this ceremony for me.
7:25>> And what were your expectations going
7:27into that ceremony? That was my last
7:30ceremony of two months of retreats and
7:32my last retreat and my last ceremony of
7:34the plan deeda where they on the last
7:37ceremony of the retreat they kind of
7:39close the process for you and this is
7:41the the moment of celebration because
7:44you did so well you know you put so much
7:46effort into the process you did the diet
7:48and you started with the plant medicine
7:51and now you are closing your retreat so
7:53I was coming to the ceremony to receive
7:56my gifts after so much effort I put into
7:59it and I had no idea that that ceremony
8:03is not going to be a celebration for me.
8:05It's actually going to be quite
8:06[laughter]
8:07the opposite.
8:09>> Okay. So, let's take us to the ceremony
8:10itself. Um, what was the atmosphere like
8:13walking into the ceremony?
8:14>> The atmosphere was the best because I've
8:17been working with these people for so
8:18many years. There was also my group and
8:22it was very calm and that sensation of
8:26trust and everything is going well that
8:28we all collectively did this effort did
8:31this journey together and I honestly
8:34felt very excited to break off my planet
8:38because that was very hard. So I arrived
8:41in the ceremony
8:43being like completely calm and
8:45completely tranquilo
8:48and I just took my seat and I was
8:51waiting for the celebration. [laughter]
8:55>> How many how many others were in the
8:57ceremony with you?
8:58>> This was a very small stroke. This was a
9:01very small circle. Um we had six more
9:05other participants and the t and the
9:08this was a very small circle. We had six
9:11other participants and four people from
9:14indigenous team.
9:15>> You say that this uh particular ceremony
9:18was with the uh the shapibbo tribe. Is
9:20that right?
9:21>> Um so is the ceremony in in darkness?
9:24>> Yeah, they start ceremony around 9:00
9:27p.m. when the sun goes down. So you
9:29arrive to the Maloca. This is a
9:32traditional ceremonial place where you
9:34do the medicine and we had a couple of
9:37candles there and it was a beautiful
9:42night in the jungle with the birds and
9:46cicadas singing. So it was very nice
9:49atmosphere.
9:50>> And how were you feeling going into that
9:51ceremony? Because at this point of
9:52course you've been working with Iawaska
9:54for many many years, attended many many
9:56ceremonies. Were you feeling confident,
9:58excited, um nervous? I feel like with
10:01Ayawaska, doesn't matter how many times
10:03you had it, there is always this like
10:06tingling because you never know what's
10:08going to happen. And at this point, I've
10:11drunk for 15 years and still like every
10:13time I go to the ceremony, I'm like I
10:16never know what what what awaits for me
10:18there. So when I arrived, I honestly was
10:22very excited to close my planet and
10:26finish this retreat because that was a
10:27lot of work and I just wanted to eat
10:30some fruit and have a nice meal. That
10:33was my thinking.
10:36>> Okay. So the um the ceremony starts uh
10:39you you drink the iawaska. How are you
10:41feeling at this point?
10:43So the ceremony starts you I drunk
10:46Iawaska and as usual the way we do it is
10:49you have like a 30 minutes of silence.
10:52>> Can I can I just ask sorry the the
10:54Iawaska um for you how does it taste
10:57because we hear very mixed reviews for
10:59me it's very very difficult to drink. Uh
11:01I I think it's it's it's not very nice
11:03for me at all. Some people you know
11:05don't mind it. Um but what about
11:07yourself? For me, the more I drink it,
11:09the the the the worse it it tastes
11:12[laughter]
11:13because like at the beginning, you don't
11:15really know what it tastes like. So, you
11:16don't have any expectation. But I think
11:19that is also the part of the medicine
11:21like every medicine is bitter because if
11:23there was sweet and cherry like
11:25everybody would drink it. So, I feel the
11:28part of it is like being hard to drink
11:30is actually the part of your uh way of
11:33showing that you are ready for this.
11:35Yeah, for me that's the most difficult
11:37part is just drinking the drinking the
11:39Iaska.
11:40>> Yeah, but but sometimes like if you
11:41drink iawaska and you eat like a small
11:43grape that helps to kill the taste. So
11:45this is a trick.
11:46>> Oh yeah, we do.
11:48>> I've never done that.
11:48>> Yeah.
11:49>> In um in Thailand where you know the one
11:52of the senses I work with in Thailand,
11:54they drink pure coconut water after the
11:57iawaska and this is this really really
11:59helps. Yes.
12:00>> So they uh they serve the Iawaska and
12:02then they have a facilitator next year
12:04which will just give you a small amount
12:05of coconut water and this is this is
12:07amazing.
12:08>> Yeah.
12:08>> But sometimes
12:09>> sometimes you chug it and then you you
12:12drink your coconut water just to get
12:14through it.
12:15>> Yeah. [laughter] It really um it really
12:17helps.
12:18>> Um okay. So you drink the Iawaska. Um
12:21for you personally, how long do the
12:22effects usually take to to kick in to
12:24start? For me it takes about an hour to
12:27be honest and it's something that varies
12:29from person to person. Some people feel
12:31very quickly the fact for me it
12:34marinates me you know because I feel
12:36like I'm sitting there and I'm waiting
12:37and I'm waiting and this anticipation is
12:40[laughter] is very hard sometimes
12:42because you just wanted for it to start
12:44>> because that like that stress and that
12:46little anxious feeling. But yeah, it
12:48takes me about an hour. So, it's my time
12:50to take a nap before it starts.
12:54>> In this particular ceremony, were you
12:55able to to lie down or sit up? Because I
12:57know different traditions and tribes and
12:59lineages, you know, have different
13:00rules. Some people, you know, sit up,
13:02some people lay down. What was it like
13:04for you?
13:04>> Well, in Shepibbo, usually people lay
13:07down. Um, I also drink with Hony Queen
13:09where you sit the whole night and but
13:12here you lay down. But what I've learned
13:16also from my experience is that
13:18sometimes laying down is actually harder
13:20to navigate the experience. So I might
13:24lay down at the beginning, but then I
13:26would sit up because when you sit
13:28straight, it also helps the energy to
13:30move
13:31>> correctly through your body. I sat for
13:33most of my experiences, it's always been
13:35lying down. And I sat with the um the
13:39naki kui um and um you know the the
13:42shaman paka he specifically said I want
13:45everybody to try and to try and sit up
13:47throughout the whole ceremony and I was
13:48like wow you know I've never done this
13:50before. Um you know and I did and I sat
13:52for the whole ceremony and I had one of
13:54the most profound ceremonies of my you
13:56know my life. Um, and now regardless of
13:58which uh lineage I sing with, I'll
14:00always try, at least for the first part
14:02of the ceremony, to stay, you know, to
14:03stay set up. Uh, but sometimes it gets
14:06too much. I go too deep and I have to,
14:08you know, I have to lay down.
14:10>> Yeah. I feel like also when you have
14:11like if you're laying down and you feel
14:13like the medicine is becoming stronger
14:15and stronger and stronger and it's hard
14:16for you to navigate the experience,
14:18sitting up also really helps to move
14:21through it. [sighs and gasps]
14:23>> Okay. So, you've drank the Iaska. Um
14:26you're laying down waiting for the
14:27effects to start. Now when the effects
14:31kick in um what is the first thing to
14:32happen for you?
14:34>> I feel the owasa mostly through my body.
14:37So I feel like there is something
14:40changing in my body. The way I
14:41experience my physical self and but when
14:46I when I just run the medicine at that
14:49ceremony it didn't feel like anything
14:51unusual. I just run it. the effects
14:54started to come up and I felt like okay
14:58the medicine started working on me. So
15:02it was they just started singing because
15:05it's been already about an hour since I
15:07drunk. And it was nothing unusual
15:11until I became extremely restless.
15:15And this is something very strange
15:16because I have a lot of experience with
15:19the medicine and I know that you have to
15:22surrender to whatever comes. But I just
15:24felt like my whole body is resisting
15:27whatever is coming. And that was very
15:30very strange to me because again like
15:31coming to the ceremony I expected that
15:34this is my last one. and I'm closing
15:36this big big um cycle of this work and
15:42for some reason I felt very like I felt
15:46trembling and I felt everything inside
15:48me resists whatever is coming. That was
15:52very strange.
15:53>> Is this unusual for you? Is this not
15:55something that you would usually feel
15:56during ceremonies?
15:57>> Usually I'm pretty grounded during the
15:59ceremony again because of my experience.
16:01But that feeling reminded me of one time
16:04I experienced death on Iawaska and I
16:07think my body knew what was coming for
16:09me. So part of my knowing, part of my
16:12body knowing was telling me that there
16:15is something becoming and I just didn't
16:18want to go there.
16:20>> Okay. What I'd like you to do now is
16:23talk me through in as much detail as you
16:25can um throughout the whole ceremony.
16:28Yeah, please talk about feelings,
16:29emotions, uh visuals. Um go into as much
16:32detail as you can.
16:33>> Yeah. So when the effects started,
16:36[snorts]
16:37I'm trembling. I'm shaking and I'm
16:40completely confused actually in my head
16:43because I am talking to the medicine
16:46like what is happening? I came here for
16:49the celebration. What are you showing
16:51me? Like I'm here for salria. I'm here
16:55to celebrate and
16:59there was nothing from the celebration
17:02from happiness. It was
17:05complete emptiness
17:07and still like I'm shaking and in that
17:10moment I understood that the medicine
17:14wants me to die because I already
17:16experienced that and it's a very
17:18particular feeling when you're like on
17:20the edge of something you don't know
17:22what's there and you have to let go
17:24completely but you don't know what it
17:26means to let go completely because
17:27you're holding on to this expectations
17:29and to your previous experiences or any
17:33ideas how it should be. So I think I I
17:36battled with it for another hour and
17:39it's very hard to tell how much time it
17:40takes when you are like in a ceremonial
17:43space because honestly it felt like
17:45eternity. She was like she was very
17:49persistent with what she was pushing me
17:51towards too. And at some point I
17:55was like okay I guess that's how it goes
17:58tonight. So, I'm just going to let go
18:01and I'm going to see what's coming. And
18:04the moment I let go, my whole inner
18:07space turned into this
18:10endless
18:12ocean of just black matter that was
18:16stretching in all directions. And I was
18:19sitting there completely lost, not
18:21knowing what's happening or what any of
18:24that mean because there was nothing to
18:26hold on to anymore. There was no
18:28visuals, no thoughts, no feelings. It
18:32was just pure emptiness. And that was
18:35very disorienting because I didn't know
18:39how to work with it really. I didn't
18:40know what it was. And again, I spent
18:44what felt like eternity in that complete
18:47darkness until I saw
18:51my body um laying on this very strange
18:57wooden platform and I'm looking into it
19:00and I don't really know what I'm looking
19:01into, but I see myself just laying dead.
19:07And that was like a visual from if you
19:11know like in Vanasi in India they do
19:13burning ceremonies where they burn
19:15bodies on sacred river Ganga. So that
19:18was very similar in in in how it looked
19:22to me and again I didn't understand what
19:26was happening because like that process
19:28is not the part of my culture in in um
19:32in Ukraine people are mostly buried.
19:34There is like even like yes crem
19:37cremation is happening now but this is
19:39not a part of the tradition. So I'm
19:41looking at myself laying there and I'm
19:45trying to see like I'm I'm with the
19:48medicine. I'm trying to look into it
19:50like what is happening? Where am I? What
19:52what's going on? And then my body starts
19:55to burn and I'm just being burned. And
20:00um
20:01>> can I ask sorry to interrupt when you
20:03were experiencing this? Were you
20:05experiencing it as yourself or looking
20:07down on your on yourself?
20:09>> That particular
20:11process I was I was present in my body
20:14laying in there and I was also looking
20:16at myself.
20:18>> So it was that consciousness that
20:19looking at me and also me experience it
20:23because like yeah when when you when you
20:25drink the medicine you don't experience
20:26space in a normal way. you like
20:29multi-dimensional and that's one that's
20:32one of the effects. So I was present
20:35also as a witness as a observer and also
20:39as the body who which has been burned
20:43and
20:45I'm looking at myself and I started to
20:47see in like she was very generous with
20:51how she was showing me this ritual
20:54because I saw how layers of my skin just
20:58like evaporates from my bones and they
21:02turn into this dust that just like
21:05disappears into the space and my bones
21:09started cracking and this like this
21:13noise and the smell of burnt hair. It
21:17was so weird because that was so
21:20vivid and so physical and I'm looking
21:24into it and I'm in complete shock
21:26because I don't know how to take it. I
21:30don't know why is she showing me this in
21:32such a precise details. It was like
21:36anatomy lesson of what happens when the
21:38body's been burned like the sound of
21:42boiling blood, you know, and like it was
21:46it was shocking and I was
21:51I didn't really know what to what to do
21:53it because I'm still like this witness
21:56looking at myself and I'm asking like
21:59how do you want me to work with this
22:02information? Why are you showing me this
22:04in this way? Because
22:07I'm like, can I do something like what
22:10can I do to help the process? Can I say
22:12a prayer? Can I how do I work with it
22:16really? And there was no answers. It was
22:19it felt it it really felt like a torture
22:22and but not like a torture in a physical
22:25way like a torture in a way that when
22:29some experience happens to the soul and
22:32the soul doesn't know how to take it how
22:35to deal with it so I was completely
22:38shocked and lost in that experience and
22:42she made me look into this that burning
22:46body until it was completely evaporated
22:51into dust.
22:52>> Wow. And did your experience stop there
22:55or was there
22:57was
22:57>> After Yeah. After that whole cremation
23:01process was over, what was left is just
23:05one piece of tiny light that was
23:09traveling through space and there was
23:12absolutely nothing in it. And it was so
23:14lonely and so devastating because after
23:19I just left where I lived, I turn into
23:22this like flicker of light and again no
23:26space, nothing to hold on to, just me
23:29like traveling across the pure dark
23:34matter. It was insane.
23:38>> Wow. It sounds like you had a very very
23:41interesting and profound experience. Um
23:44>> once they close the ceremony um how are
23:47you feeling after experiencing that?
23:50>> So the ceremony is closing everybody
23:53celebrating and I'm laying there like
23:56thinking like what the actual heck like
24:00I'm the facilitator. I'm usually the one
24:03who like like completes the process with
24:06other people and other people are happy.
24:09They are dancing.
24:11They are celebrating the close of their
24:13plantas and I'm just laying there
24:18completely
24:20disappointed actually because
24:23it didn't make any sense. I'm like oh
24:26after everything I've done in the jungle
24:28after like two months two retreats doing
24:30the plant eyes like being a good girl at
24:34the end I received this.
24:37I was completely shocked and I was so
24:39far away. It was very hard to come back
24:42to my body. I still like I the effects
24:45they kind of dissipated a little bit. So
24:48I can see with my eyes. I can see people
24:50before me. I can see I'm still in the
24:52Maloka. But I'm not there. And I'm not
24:57only not there, but I don't know what it
25:00was,
25:01what's happening now, who I am now, what
25:05it all means. So the the experience
25:09tells me that like in this case, you
25:12need to ground. And sometimes eating
25:15some food if you can helps you to
25:18ground. And because I was already on 2
25:20months of no salt, no fruit, this is why
25:23you kind of stay away from those foods
25:25because they ground you. So I went
25:28immediately to the kitchen and there was
25:30a soup and I put like a bunch of salt
25:32[laughter]
25:33in my soup and I started eating it
25:35hoping that it's going to help me. But
25:40um that effect lasted for for days if
25:45not for weeks for me.
25:46>> Yeah.
25:48So it felt like you had kind of built up
25:50to this to this point um you know of
25:52closing the diet and after that
25:54experience you felt disappointed,
25:56confused.
25:57>> Yeah.
25:58>> More questions than when you
25:59>> Exactly. more questions. I also felt
26:01betrayed. I'm like what's [laughter] the
26:03point like that? There was nothing that
26:06would give me a sign that this is going
26:08to happen. But then actually 3 days
26:10after I had that ceremony, Russia
26:13invaded Ukraine.
26:15>> Wow.
26:17How did you feel the next day? So, you
26:19know, you you finish the ceremony as you
26:21said, very confused, more questions,
26:23disappointed, you gone to sleep. The
26:25next day you wake up. How you feeling?
26:27>> The next day I wake up and I'm in this
26:29liinal space. In this space, I stayed
26:32for like 6 months. all my friends like
26:34calling me and cuz they knew I'm going
26:37to do this data and we're closing the
26:41retreat and but I just feel like I don't
26:44know what's I don't know what it all
26:46that means. It's like you you do
26:50something and it like it didn't make any
26:53sense on my path. I did not understand
26:55at the time why what was that teaching
26:58about but I felt in this like in
27:01between. I felt in between because I
27:04didn't really know why was it shown to
27:07me or what to do with it now. So
27:10that effect lasted for like months and
27:13months and months me being in this
27:15transitional period.
27:16>> A common thing that that we hear
27:17interviewing people about their
27:19experiences is that sometimes it can
27:20take weeks or even months for them to
27:22understand their experience. How long
27:25did it take you for you to to fully
27:26understand uh the experience that you
27:28went through?
27:30Well, the strange thing is after 3 days
27:33from from that ceremony, as I said, the
27:37war in Ukraine began and me as as a
27:41spiritual guide for my community. I had
27:43people reaching out to me because it was
27:45a horror that was happening there and uh
27:48people who drunk the medicine with me
27:50before they had their family members
27:53killed, their partners killed and the
27:55news started coming out, the photos, the
27:58videos and I found myself looking at
28:01death again very very closely. I
28:04remember seeing those pictures and I'm
28:07like I'm here again like what am I
28:10seeing? What am I looking at? what does
28:12all mean? And for
28:16months, maybe like six months also with
28:18everything that was happening in my
28:20life,
28:21I still couldn't make sense out of it.
28:23It's like out of sudden my whole reality
28:26turned into a dark matter, turned black
28:29and everywhere I looked was death. And
28:33that was very confusing because
28:36um I love life and I'm a happy person
28:39and I you know do this work so I can be
28:43happy and be aware but it was this like
28:46a period long long period I think maybe
28:49even 8 months until until I realized
28:52what was happening in my life actually.
28:55>> And when you look back now what did that
28:58experience teach you?
29:01some things like it's hard to explain
29:04and some things is very hard to
29:07understand at the beginning. So when I
29:09look into that ceremony now, into that
29:12experience,
29:13I know that medicine the Iawaska was
29:17preparing me maybe for what comes
29:21since 2022. And um it was preparing me
29:26to be brave to look into some something
29:29very difficult and very hard and be a
29:33witness to that. Would you say that
29:35particular experience changed the the
29:37purpose or direction of your life?
29:41>> It took a while, but it actually did
29:42because when I got back after
29:47that retreat and I spent another maybe
29:49month in in the jungle after that
29:51retreat, I got back to London cuz I had
29:55to I couldn't be I couldn't go back to
29:56Ukraine anymore. And I was completely I
30:01wasn't like completely lost but I it was
30:03very hard to understand what was
30:05happening with my life now considering
30:07everything that was going on. And there
30:10was this person on on social media on my
30:13Instagram. I followed her. She was a
30:16death doula. And I didn't know what the
30:19death doula was because again this is
30:21not something that being practiced in
30:23Ukraine or Eastern Europe in general. I
30:25didn't really care about the death doula
30:27stuff. I just like her personality. But
30:30what she did is she talked a lot about
30:34death and I felt like that was healing
30:36me that was helping me because I had
30:38this subject or uh this whole experience
30:42without the container like I leave
30:44something and I live in my real life
30:46that as well until this day and I don't
30:49really know how to work with it. I don't
30:51really know the language. I don't know
30:54how to process these things. So at some
30:57point she announced that they're going
31:00to do a dulla course. It was the first
31:04ever dulla education
31:07uh for Ukrainians as well. And I joined
31:10it and that was the first time maybe in
31:138 months where I actually felt relieved
31:18because there was a space where I could
31:20talk about death. I could talk about
31:22this subjects. I could learn the
31:24language of how to talk about it because
31:26when people were re reaching out to me,
31:29I felt very numb. I felt frozen because
31:32I didn't have the language, the skills.
31:35How do you communicate? How do you hold
31:37space for someone who is going through
31:40the death of their partner or family
31:42member or losing their parents, losing
31:45their children? And I feel like for me
31:48it was very important to do something
31:50about it. like I'm the person where I
31:52need to know why is this happening and
31:55what can I do with it. So that time when
31:59I joined that course I felt like I'm
32:01finally doing something and it it felt
32:04like that wasn't in vain what I
32:07experienced myself. So yeah that that
32:10ceremony through a long period of time
32:12it kind of guided me to become a deathd
32:15to hold space for people who go through
32:19anything related to the subject of death
32:21in their life also their own mortality
32:24because many people of course fear that.
32:26>> So looking back at the experience you
32:29know it sounds like it was a very very
32:30challenging experience but are you
32:32grateful overall that you that you went
32:34through that? Yeah, but I had many
32:36challenging experience in Iawaska and
32:38usually like it doesn't take that long.
32:40This is was also like a test to me where
32:42like again after drinking for so many
32:44years I could make sense of it for so
32:47long. So I think that was where my faith
32:51was tested because you know sometimes
32:53you receive this messages on Iawaska
32:55that doesn't make sense to you or you
32:57don't understand and it takes a while
33:00and sometimes it takes months sometimes
33:02it takes years. You know some ceremonies
33:04I remember and I'm like oh my god I only
33:06understand now what it meant two years
33:09ago or like 3 years ago. So yeah, it
33:12took a while, but at the end in this
33:15weirdest way is possible. I never
33:18intended to be a death doula. I never
33:20thought that I'm going to work with
33:22death, but somehow it guided me to
33:25become one.
33:27>> It sounds like an amazing experience you
33:28had. I mean, this this not on the
33:30podcast, this just from me. Like sounds
33:31like a very very profound experience and
33:33it sounds like it's kind of
33:35>> realigned you on the on the path of
33:38where you're supposed to go, which is,
33:40you know, which is amazing. Yeah, I
33:42think my next step is I want to
33:46I want to study psychedelic dying
33:49>> because this is part of the practice
33:50because again like I experienced one one
33:53profound um death experience on Iawaska
33:57but that was many years ago. I think I
33:59was like 24 25 and that itself changed
34:04the course of my life. Um, so I think
34:07now and they they also they the practice
34:10I don't know if it's going to be awaska
34:12or another psychedelic but I think now
34:15my experience with the medicine is
34:17guiding me towards become that support
34:20for anyone who thinks that's their path
34:23that's the way they want to die.
34:26>> This is a question that we ask everybody
34:27that sits on the the podcast. Do you
34:29believe there's anything misunderstood
34:31about Iawaska?
34:35>> It's a good and it's also a complicated
34:37question because I think many people
34:40believe that Ayawaska will heal their
34:43life. I don't think Ayawaska heal your
34:46lives. I think Ayawaska gives you the
34:49instruments and the tools so you can do
34:52it yourself because then as any
34:54spiritual tool whether it's yoga,
34:56meditation, vipasana,
34:59pancha karma, anything really
35:03is an instrument that was given so you
35:06can do the work. Ayawaska is not going
35:08to do the work for you. And I think this
35:11is also something that many people
35:12misunderstand because they believe there
35:15is there might be like a magic peel or a
35:18magic shamanic brew that you drink and
35:20everything becomes
35:22um light and love in their life. Um I
35:26don't think so. I think that it can be
35:29an amazing instrument but the work is up
35:31to you and it's not only the experience
35:35of the ceremony itself. I believe that
35:38actually the experience begins after you
35:41do ayawaska. This is where your ceremony
35:43starts because you know we can go to the
35:46circles and into these communities and
35:48like celebrate and there is for sure a
35:51lot of joy can be experienced during the
35:52medicine but you don't do that for that
35:55you do that to receive this knowledge
35:58and then come back to your life and
36:00actually work with it within your life
36:03because ayawaska is not the path. It's
36:06not like now you dedicate your life to
36:08drinking ayawaska. It's you drink it so
36:11you can make change here and be the
36:13light here for others and for your own
36:16life.
36:18>> I completely agree and this is why as an
36:20organization plant medicine global we
36:22put a huge emphasis on integration. Um
36:25and you know exactly what you said there
36:27the most important part of the
36:29experience is is after the ceremony once
36:31you go back to your normal life and how
36:33you integrate you know the lessons and
36:34the teachings.
36:36whatever you've had from the experience
36:37into your you know into your into your
36:39everyday life.
36:40>> Integration is a big one. At some point
36:42I wanted to do a tattoo integration
36:44because I see that all this like some
36:47people go to have an experience and many
36:49people do it you know for many different
36:51reasons but an experience itself is not
36:54the answer because an experience can be
36:56profound. It can be deep but what you do
36:59with that experience is actually the
37:01most important part and how you
37:03integrate what structure do you have
37:05when you come back after the retreat.
37:06Okay, you spend like 2 weeks in Peru and
37:09then you go back to your life and if
37:10everything in your life stay stays the
37:12same, you still have the toxic habits.
37:14You're still with toxic people, you
37:16know, you have to make changes in your
37:18life, you change that relationship,
37:20change the way you eat, you train, you
37:23sleep, everything. Like if you don't do
37:25that, there is absolutely no point in
37:27drinking the medicine.
37:30>> Yeah, [snorts] I agree. So, you know,
37:31you need to put in the work um after the
37:34um you know, after the ceremony. Um, I
37:36couldn't have put that better myself.
37:38You know, I ask is not a a magic pill.
37:40Um, I always say I will offer you the
37:42guidance and the support that you need,
37:44but you know, you need to take the you
37:46need to take the steps. You need to put
37:47the work in yourself after the after the
37:50ceremony.
37:50>> Um,
37:52would you recommend Iaska?
37:55>> You know, it's a funny question because
37:57I am in service of Iawaska and of people
37:59who drink it. And when I just started
38:02drinking, I had this like this naive
38:04dream, you know, like, oh, everybody
38:06should drink aaska. All the presidents
38:08of the country should drink. We make a
38:11world a better place. But now after 15
38:14years, I can definitely say that
38:17Ayawaska is not for everybody. Um, and
38:21you really have to have some
38:25personal deep like a gut feeling
38:27connection with this particular
38:29instrument and not just because you
38:33heard it from a friend or your neighbor
38:36that they did this experience and
38:38everybody doing it now. It's not the
38:40it's not the reason to do it. I feel
38:43like Ayawaska is a very particular
38:46instrument and you have to have your
38:49structure, your personality structure
38:51because that this is one of the most
38:53powerful instruments on the planet, you
38:55know, and you have to be ready for that.
38:56You have to be ready for the change. You
38:59have to be ready that sometimes after
39:01you drink the medicine they say like
39:04actually it can get worse until you get
39:07better because you receive this
39:09knowledge and you still don't know how
39:11to integrate how to adapt your life now.
39:14So
39:16I would recommend Ayawaska to someone
39:19who is already have their inner
39:22structure and have that support system
39:25like a practice they have in their life
39:27they follow the diet the health journey
39:31maybe therapy like any other tools
39:34meditation yoga that you help yourself
39:37then with with the medicine and
39:42it's very important to know where you do
39:45ayawaska with whom who is the provider
39:48who is the shaman because again now
39:50there are all sorts of things going on
39:53even in the jungle even in the Amazon
39:56even with ship people tribe and other
39:58tribes so you have to be really sure
40:00that the person who is serving
40:03um first of all is a good person and
40:06don't look at him only in his shamanic
40:09attire but also look how he behaves in
40:11his real life what he does when he is
40:14not serving the medicine. You have to
40:16know where your iawaska is coming from.
40:19And um because again, you know, nowadays
40:23people buying all the internet
40:26ingredients and they're mixing the stuff
40:28and they are adding other DMT plants in
40:30Iawaska that do not belong there. And I
40:34was told and this is what I've learned
40:36from my teachers that there are 200
40:41varieties in in the Amazon which they
40:45only use two or three types to serve the
40:48medicine. So know exactly what is in
40:52your medicine. It should be only two
40:54ingredients only wine and only chakruna
40:58leaves. and know who cooked it, where
41:01it's coming from and also have the right
41:04preparation because at the end you are
41:08responsible for your experience. You
41:10know there is no such a thing as safe
41:12place anymore and you never know uh
41:15what's what's happening uh with the
41:17plant medicine world. So make sure you
41:20do all these things and be very
41:23transparent about your health
41:25conditions. If you're taking any
41:27medication, anti-antepressants,
41:29if you have heart issues, if you have
41:31high blood pressure, all these things
41:33need to be communicated transparently to
41:35your facilitators or to your shamans,
41:38your team, and then you can do it.
41:42[laughter]
41:43>> Thank you very much for that very
41:45detailed uh answer. Um, and I couldn't
41:47have put that, you know, any better
41:49myself. Um, I agree with everything that
41:51you said. um you know knowing that
41:55you're you're going to a safe place uh
41:57knowing who the the shins are, knowing
41:59who the facilitators are, um knowing
42:02their background, um is very very
42:04important and you know it can be very
42:06difficult now um because you know we're
42:08starting to see now that ISA is becoming
42:10more of a of a trend and I and I
42:12absolutely hate that hate that word um
42:15and like you say you know I is not for
42:17not for everybody um and I believe that
42:19the people should know when they
42:22genuinely feel called to the medicine
42:24and they've not just, you know, they've
42:25not just seen something online or
42:26they've not just spoken to someone and
42:27say, "Oh, that sounds cool." Um, they
42:29really do need to feel feel called to
42:31the, you know, to the medicine. And even
42:33at that point in your life when you do
42:34feel called, you need to do your
42:36research. Um, and you know, you need to
42:38be going to the right place with the
42:39with the right people because the, you
42:41know, the the setting and the
42:43facilitators and, you know, it all has a
42:46huge impact on the uh on the ceremony
42:48itself. Um,
42:51>> if you could summarize your experience,
42:53um, in one sentence, um, what would that
42:56be?
42:56>> H,
42:58you don't always get what you want, but
43:03you always get what you need.
43:06>> That famous Iaska saying, um, I love
43:09that, and it's, you know, it's so um,
43:10it's so so true. Um,
43:12>> yes.
43:13>> Is there anything else that you'd like
43:14to add?
43:16I um I want to
43:20say like what we discussed today as well
43:22about the modern trend that Ayawaska is
43:26becoming a trend and I know there are
43:28many greeningos like me you know going
43:31to the jungle and spending a couple of
43:34months in the jungle learn a couple of
43:36songs in a good case scenario and they
43:40serve a to other people and I think this
43:44is very very dangerous because you don't
43:47really know what you're doing. This
43:48these people they had this tradition for
43:50thousands of years. So it's implemented
43:53in their DNA and the shamans I'm sure
43:57you work with and I work with people who
43:59studied the medicine their whole life 40
44:0250 years and it's very very important
44:05because I feel like the western people
44:08they can be very taken away by this
44:11whole movement of of Ayawaska and I
44:13believe that many people have good
44:15intentions they want to help uh but
44:18again this is something that I really
44:21care about and um I think it can be very
44:24dangerous if you don't have the right
44:26training if you don't have the right uh
44:30guidance because
44:33it's something that is coming from such
44:35a deep tradition and also I I hear a lot
44:38of stories of people you know serving
44:41Ayawaska and then turning on the music
44:43on like YouTube just some like Ayawaska
44:46songs and medicine songs you have the
44:49music which is ikaro
44:51And you have aaska and this two it's
44:54like imagine you like you drunk awaska
44:57and you're now sitting on the boat in
44:58this ocean of complete uh
45:03complete like nothingness and the boat
45:07and this is this is how you navigate the
45:09songs help you navigate. So when you
45:11don't have a shaman who sings the songs
45:15that help you go through experience, you
45:17don't really know what you're doing
45:18because the songs it's a vibration. It's
45:23the frequency that they tune you into
45:25during the experience. So you can have a
45:28good good ceremony. So when you play a
45:30music on through YouTube, you don't have
45:34the same effect. And also this can be
45:36very dangerous in the way that you know
45:38they sing a song special song when they
45:41open the ceremony because they open the
45:43space and they call the spirits to come
45:46in the sp the spirits that they work
45:48with and in this way they they make sure
45:51that I space is a safe place because
45:54when you drink the medicine you open
45:56yourself up you know and there is a lot
45:57of stuff going out there especially like
46:00in the jungle they believe that there
46:01are like negative spirits, dark spirits
46:04And this stuff can get attached to you.
46:06So when you don't do it with a
46:08experienced shaman, you're really
46:11opening yourself up to something that
46:13you don't know. And if you play music of
46:15YouTube or you play just like Spotify
46:18medicine music playlist, you don't
46:20really work with the space in the way
46:22that shaman do because then they sing
46:25special songs to you and then they close
46:27the ceremony. They call your spirit back
46:29in because when you have a journey you
46:31you can have out of body experience. You
46:34go far. You can go to other dimensions.
46:36You can go to past lives. You can go you
46:39can go very deep. So when you come back
46:42you need to bring back the good stuff.
46:45You need to bring back the teachings.
46:46You need to bring back the light. And
46:49experienced shaman and uh indigenous
46:52masters they know how to work with these
46:54energies. So when the ceremony is over
46:57they do a closing they they sing special
47:00songs and that makes sure and that makes
47:03sure that your experience can be good
47:06because again when you are in the
47:08ceremony you don't really know what is
47:11happening in the space. It's it's not uh
47:14your part to play. You don't have to
47:16know. You have to have your experience.
47:17You have to be in good hands. So please
47:20consider that when you serve the
47:24medicine for other people if you are uh
47:27a westerner and also consider that when
47:30you go and drink the medicine with
47:33somebody who is not as experienced or as
47:35indigenous master.
47:38>> Thank you for that and you know we
47:40completely agree. Um, you know, one of
47:42the reasons that Plant Medicine Global
47:44was set up was to, you know, assist
47:46people with finding the right, you know,
47:48the right centers to to work with. Um, I
47:50won't go into this too much because it's
47:52not what the podcast is about. Um, you
47:54know, we work with, uh, we work at three
47:55centers only across the globe. We work
47:57with one in Asia, uh, we work with one
47:59in the Amazon jungle, and we work with
48:01one in Europe. Um, you know, so when
48:03people come to us and they say, you
48:04know, we see all of these retreats out
48:06there and, you know, some of them look
48:07really glamorous and they've got, you
48:09know, they've got these big swimming
48:10pools and sauners and steam rooms and
48:12all these activities and they're really
48:13expensive and, you know, people don't
48:15really know where to where to turn. Uh,
48:17and this is one of the reasons people
48:18people come to us. Uh, and we always
48:20give people these, you know, the three
48:21options. We say, "Look, we work with one
48:23in Asia, one in the Amazon, and one in
48:25Europe. And these are handpicked by us.
48:29Um, and these are some of the best we've
48:31experienced on the in the entire, you
48:33know, in the entire in the entire world.
48:35You know, none of these guys are going
48:36to be playing things through speakers or
48:38YouTube or Spotify. Everything is done
48:41is done live. Um, and there's no kind of
48:44playlist. They they work with the room
48:46with the energy. You know, the songs may
48:48change. The shaman will choose um, you
48:50know, what songs are are played
48:52depending on the the needs of the uh, of
48:54the groups. and they're all done in in
48:55very small groups so everybody can get,
48:57you know, the individual um you know,
48:59attention or or healing that that they
49:01need. Um I'm really really glad that you
49:03brought that up. Um because,
49:06>> you know, we do see this a lot.
49:07>> Um as you say, you know, you see a lot
49:09of uh westerners and they have the the
49:11purest of intentions. They just want to
49:13help people. Um but they're not doing it
49:15in the right way. And that's just due to
49:17to lack of experience. Um, you know, the
49:19guys in the Amazon, the indigenous,
49:20they've been doing this for thousands
49:22and thousands of years and it's been
49:23passed on from family to family to
49:25family, you know, from
49:26>> um, you know, we speak to shamans and
49:28their father was a shaman and their
49:29father and their father and their father
49:30and the iicaras and everything else has
49:32been passed down through generations and
49:33and generations. Um, and you know, I
49:36applaud westerners that go over there
49:38and they want to learn everything, but
49:39you know, to go over there and do a few
49:41years in the jungle and a few datas and
49:42then come back and think you can save
49:44the medicine. Uh, you know, personally,
49:46and I'm sure you'd agree, you know, I
49:47disagree, but I don't think this is um
49:50safe. Um,
49:52>> I don't think this is the right way. And
49:53also, you know what I'm thinking?
49:55Because the world now in such a
49:56turbulent place, you know, like we as a
49:59collective now go through very strange
50:02time in our lives and who knows what's
50:04going to happen in 5 10 years, you know,
50:06maybe
50:08[sighs and gasps] we're all going to
50:09disappear. But um while we have those
50:14elders who still have the knowledge the
50:17knowledge they've been accumulating
50:19through so many generations I think it's
50:22important if you feel the call to drink
50:24ayawaska go and do the ceremony with the
50:28elder because this is where you're going
50:30to find the wisdom this is where you're
50:32going to find the true knowledge because
50:34those people have been carrying their
50:37tradition
50:38their experience their knowledge for so
50:41many years and while they there while we
50:44have those elders because I go to the
50:47jungle and I see um kuranderas or
50:50shamans who are like in the 80s you know
50:52and it's for the jungle it's very high
50:55age so soon these people might not be
50:59there and what is going to be left is
51:01yes
51:03some people who had a chance to study
51:04with them but while we have those true
51:07masters I think it's very important to
51:10go and learn from them.
51:13[snorts]
51:13>> Well, Katia, we're running out of time
51:15now. Um I feel like I could speak to you
51:17forever, but we're um we're we're
51:19cutting it on time now. Um thank you so
51:21much for sharing your story today. It's
51:23been absolutely amazing to to have you
51:24on.
51:25>> Thank you. I appreciate it and I'm glad
51:27I have a chance to also share my
51:30experience. I hope it helps to make a
51:33right decision.
51:34>> Thank you.
51:34>> Thank you. And thank you for watching or
51:37listening to Iawaska stories. If you'd
51:39like to learn more about Iawaska, you
51:41can visit our website at plant medicine
51:43global.org.
51:45Next week, we'll be back with another
51:46amazing journey.