Full transcript
0:10hi this is Justin Coletti from sonic
0:12scoop coming at you from the legendary
0:13avatar recording studios and thanks B
0:15and H we get to bring you an interview
0:17with the author legendary Joe chicka
0:19relly
0:19Joe chicka relly is one of our favorite
0:23producers and engineers he started
0:25working with Frank Zappa
0:26ages ago and is making cutting edge
0:28records still to this day with artists
0:30like this chins the White Stripes spoon
0:33Morrissey Alanis Morisette all sorts of
0:36cool stuff very excited to do this
0:37interview let's jump right to it I love
0:40that throughout your career I feel like
0:43you're not afraid to push things and one
0:45of the things that really comes to my
0:46mind is the first time I heard White
0:47Stripes Icky Thump and the kick drum on
0:49that is almost as distorted as the
0:51guitar where is the the confidence come
0:54from to do that who leads that does an
0:57artist lead that are you pushing the
0:58artist what's that like I think it's a
1:01little bit of both parties the artist
1:04and the the producer or engineer side of
1:07me trying to go to a certain place I
1:09mean I always felt like I come at a
1:12project with a very specific vision
1:14perhaps do some research listen to their
1:17past work those conversations that I
1:20have prior to recording with the artist
1:22in terms of trying to find out
1:23specifically what they want to do so I
1:26sort of formulate a place that I want to
1:28go and then you just kind of keep
1:30working towards that goal I mean the
1:33White Stripes were very interesting in
1:36that I had worked with jack on some solo
1:38stuff and he was kind of rather funny he
1:41said you know I really want to get wild
1:44this time and experiment and I was like
1:46great he said yeah I think I want to do
1:48this on a 16 track machine I was like
1:51wow you're really getting crazy jack
1:53because all the white stress records
1:55were done on 8-track I flew up to that
1:58point so you know for him that was
2:00experimenting but he definitely wanted
2:03to make a record that sort of had some
2:05modern elements to it but yet the sort
2:08of classic touch that that he has where
2:12he comes from musically is just a real
2:14classic rock and roll blues those those
2:17folk music the stuff that he loves and
2:20Revere's so he wanted to make something
2:23that
2:23brace that but yet had some modern
2:25elements to it I was like you know this
2:27is great this is something that I can
2:29try to take a very natural approach to
2:33the recording almost like a classic Glyn
2:37John's 70 Zeppelin who stones kind of
2:42record where it really feels like people
2:45in a room yeah not to process and what
2:48was really funny is that the first day
2:52of tracking start getting drum sounds
2:55and I took a very minimal approach to
2:57the miking and processing and drama
3:00sounded good and I stood back and
3:03listened I was like the drums sound good
3:06they don't sound special you know they
3:10don't they don't have a twist to them
3:11they don't have that modern edge that
3:14Jack was talking about and he was
3:16listening he was like man they sound
3:17great and like I I think there's more
3:20there I think I can do something better
3:22I said you know would you give me a half
3:24hour an hour I want to try something you
3:27don't like the drums yeah I'll go back
3:28to the house I got this old 1964 Ludwig
3:31kid I'll bring that if you want not just
3:34let me try some things so out came the
3:38distortion boxes out came the sub
3:41harmonic synthesizer out came ten more
3:45compresses and four more microphones
3:46there's really a lot of - and I started
3:50to push things and of course it was
3:52analog tape and sixteen tracks so that I
3:55think we had the drums maybe on a total
3:58of six tracks maybe a stereo room kicks
4:01there and then overheads and toms and
4:04hi-hat all mixed together so all the
4:08processing whatever distortion or
4:10anything that was added had to be added
4:14right then so that's how I had to
4:16approach it so whatever sound I mean if
4:19you were to pull up those White Stripes
4:21tracks you'd see that pretty much we
4:22what you hear in the record is it's
4:25there on tape so it was a matter of like
4:27you know adding some dbx boom box to the
4:30kick drum to give it that sort of
4:32supernatural almost hip-hop kind of
4:35bottom and Jack's
4:37Jax guitar sound is great his touches is
4:41pretty massive to go in the ISO booth
4:43and listen to his amps it's
4:46excruciatingly loud but to go and look
4:49at the knobs there on like 2 & 3 he's
4:54that much of a dynamic player is the
4:56concussion of his playing is unlike most
4:59guitar players he really puts a lot out
5:03of his body into that instrument it's so
5:06it's it's really easy to get a guitar
5:08sound from I was pleasure always getting
5:11ATAR sounds but what was evident to me
5:13that first hour or two of tracking was
5:16there's a lot of sonic space to take up
5:21with two instruments when you think
5:23initially what modern records are
5:26they're all layered and processed and
5:28there's a lot of information coming down
5:30to channels and to take just two
5:33instruments and have it have the impact
5:36of a modern rock record but just two
5:39instruments recorded in a shall we say
5:42classic seventies way it was pretty
5:45boring it was wasn't powerful was really
5:47effective and I kind of stood back and I
5:50was like yeah this isn't something I
5:52would want to buy this isn't emotionally
5:55something that gets me off and and I got
5:59up put some more power and some energy
6:01and excitement and some herbs and some
6:05twists of the sounds if you will and so
6:08that's when all the processing kinda
6:10came well I think what that does is it's
6:12such a harmonically rich sounding
6:13recording it sounds like a full band
6:15like all of those little holes of
6:17harmonics the entire frequency range is
6:19covered and with two instruments and I'm
6:21sure if you sat there in the room with
6:23Jack and that AM and with Meg and those
6:25drums it would be this huge visceral
6:27offense but if you capture it perfectly
6:29in here with speakers you don't get that
6:31huge visual thing anymore sometimes
6:33perhaps doing artificial things makes it
6:35feel more real yes no I think that's
6:37that's really really the case you're
6:39really trying to elicit an emotional
6:41response at all times whether it's
6:44mellow and moody or aggressive and
6:48frightening
6:50you've got to find
6:51to bring that out and so I'm never
6:54really afraid to push things hard if
6:58that's what it needs to be in fact there
7:01was one song on the White Stripes album
7:04that really to me sounded like this
7:07Detroit garage rock kind of track and I
7:12was trying to get that kind of Stooges
7:15distortion those records just sound so
7:18blown out so over-the-top and I was
7:22trying everything to get that sound I
7:24could not get that sound I was looking
7:27for it for days and one day by accident
7:30the assistant engineer plugged the
7:33stereo bus insert backwards outputs into
7:37inputs and inputs into uploads whatever
7:39and he basically loaded down the console
7:43to the point where the stereo bus was
7:44just a massive Distortion I was like oh
7:48my god that's the sound that's it that's
7:50fantastic we've got to record this so I
7:53ended up printing a rough mix with all
7:56this distortion onto two tracks of the
7:58analog tape and then when I went to do
8:01the final mix I got my individual sounds
8:03the way I wanted but I took that two
8:05tracks of massive distortion and just
8:08blended it in to the overall mix so it
8:12was just like a happy accident I love it
8:14I feel like you should now go out and
8:16for every project hire one really bad in
8:18exactly to see what happens but those
8:21that you know a friend of mine used to
8:23call it the planned accident method yeah
8:24where you know it's sometimes are those
8:27things that you don't plan for there are
8:31the magic moments and making record I
8:34know Daniel Lanois I used to use a
8:35technique where if he'd get done doing a
8:39rough mix of a song he did insist that
8:41the console be left the way it was for
8:44the previous song normally no normally
8:47because all of a sudden you'd have now
8:49the snare drum EQ on the guitar track or
8:52the guitar panning on the vocal track
8:55and you're like whoa I never heard the
8:57song with the balances in this manner
9:00and it becomes fresh and becomes a new
9:03way to listen to things
9:05and you know one one thing that doesn't
9:07happen I've found with working in the
9:10Box all the time is that you never have
9:14that opportunity at least I don't have
9:16that opportunity of going like you know
9:18what let's pull all this stuff out and
9:21start from scratch let's take a fresh
9:23look at it very rare than hear things
9:26again for the first time exactly we were
9:28talking a little bit about white stripe
9:31icky thump and how you know pushed some
9:35of that stuff is and when I first heard
9:37that record I sent Wow nobody pushes
9:39anything as hard as this except for
9:41maybe Dave Redmond and Georgia Carell is
9:42funny and then one of the records that
9:44came out in this past year was a record
9:46that is Dave Friedman and Jojo Carelli
9:48and fantastic production is the most
9:51recent spoon record and for anyone who's
9:53like this band from the past or even
9:55just hearing them now I think there's
9:56some brilliant production choices on
9:58there but I wanted to ask you a little
10:00bit it's emblematic to me of what I hear
10:02in a lot of your mixes which is that
10:04there's so much width in the guitars and
10:06there's such a solid Center and I feel
10:09like you get these really wide sounding
10:11productions a lot of clarity a lot of
10:14space in that way and such a solid
10:16center what's your approach to panning
10:18to do that and you think about panning
10:20choices while you're tracking or does
10:22that happen in the mix no like for me
10:25everything happens when I'm tracking
10:27like I mentioned I'm very very
10:30deliberate and a kind of analog style in
10:34that sense that instruments go down
10:37recorded like I want them to sound and
10:39if that means a lot of compression or a
10:42lot of effects
10:43certainly I'm post-post tracking I'm
10:46adding plugins or whatever it might be
10:49trying things out but 90% of the sound
10:54is there when I'm tracking so if I'm if
10:57I'm going for real wide guitars it might
11:01be that I'm just simply doing it by
11:04making conscious choices about how I
11:07double track a guitar and I'm making
11:09sure that the double track is a
11:12different instrument or a different amp
11:14or a different pickup on the guitar
11:17or maybe it's got a lot of direct mixed
11:21in it where the main one doesn't maybe
11:24the main ones a real high gain amp and
11:26the double is a lower key amp so I'm I'm
11:30really trying to achieve that sort of
11:34left-right ultra spread there while I
11:38track and that kind of goes the same for
11:42the bottom end I like to think of things
11:44in a very cinematic sense and really
11:48feel like that my kick drum sits down
11:52here and my bass sits here and ours
11:55sit here and I'd like to really kind of
11:58expand the picture as big as I can 70
12:02millimeter style you know and I'll
12:04really well I'm tracking I'll do a lot
12:06of processing to make those low-end
12:09instruments as big as possible so they
12:12sit as low assuming that's what I'm
12:15going for certain maybe dance oriented
12:18tracks you want things they hit you in
12:20the chest more than to hit you lower so
12:23I'll maybe go for a naki or sound but
12:27I'm really thinking about that picture
12:29and how big I can make it now I can kind
12:32of expand it while I'm tracking and that
12:35might mean you know adding some kind of
12:38to be cute or something or you know in
12:41the case of guitars I love recording
12:43guitars main rhythm guitars with two
12:46amps and I might treat the amps
12:49differently I might put a delay on one
12:51amp and a reverb on the other amp or one
12:54amp might be very clean and more dynamic
12:58and its sound and the other one might be
13:00very compressed so there'll be this
13:02constant motion left and right that
13:04happened so and that really goes down
13:08while I'm tracking you know in the case
13:12of the spoon record they had hired Dave
13:15Friedman on before I even got involved
13:17to produce it Brit had said he'd always
13:19wanted to work with Dave and one of them
13:21to mix the record and I was like you
13:23know I'm a huge fan of what he this
13:25alright yeah so it was it was a
13:27privilege to have him mix it he did
13:31such a great job I actually thought that
13:33the mixes were gonna come back much more
13:36radically different from what we sent
13:39him and I think he did a great job of
13:42doing his thing and putting a lot of
13:45character in things but not going so far
13:49that it did sound like the song anymore
13:51right you know really it was it was
13:54great what he brought to the to the
13:56records fantastically so before we run
13:58out of time I want to ask you about a
14:00couple more recent records that you've
14:01worked on I would say both Morrissey and
14:04Alanis Morrissette are people that have
14:06been kind of off of the radar a little
14:08bit that have come back on and you did
14:10records with both of them very recently
14:11Morrissey having a lot of success
14:13touring here in the US and then the last
14:15Morissette probably having some of the
14:17best overseas success she's a long time
14:19what was it like working with these
14:21people have such you know great legacies
14:23who are kind of coming back on well you
14:28know four starts and it's an honor
14:30because they're both iconic artists to
14:33me personally and Alanis is is just a
14:37wonderful person a very intense deep
14:43thinker a lot of heart like Morrissey
14:46very strong in their beliefs the album I
14:49did with Alanis was something that she
14:51started with Guy Sigsworth and they did
14:53a lot of programming and wrote songs
14:56together but she found that the
14:59programming approach for her was almost
15:02too cold it wasn't human enough so what
15:07we did was to bring in live musicians
15:11and add them into the programming
15:14sometimes replacing sometimes augmenting
15:17but the record became a combination of
15:20electronic and organic elements it's
15:23funny I've found artists like that that
15:25once they've decided that they're hiring
15:30you they put their trust in you and they
15:33really let you and encouraged you to do
15:36what you do and they want to bring out
15:39the best in you they don't want to
15:42micromanage
15:43Morrissey was the same way basically the
15:47way we worked on this last album that we
15:49spent almost two months in France at la
15:53Fabrique Studios which is a beautiful
15:54studio in South of France and his whole
15:58band was there in the morning Morrissey
16:01would come in we hear the song it might
16:05be in demo form it might just be him out
16:08at the piano
16:09with pianist make sure we had the right
16:12key the right tempo and then he'd sing a
16:16guide vocal to the piano perhaps or an
16:19acoustic guitar or maybe over the demo
16:22whatever it might be appropriate for
16:23that song and then we build the entire
16:27band track around his guide vocal
16:31because with him as in Atlantis their
16:34their storytelling yeah and all the
16:36emotion and all the character that's
16:39built into that song is there in that
16:42vocal so those vocals usually tell you
16:45how to produce the record they tell you
16:49when the dynamic needs to come up they
16:51tell you when there's an important lyric
16:54that needs to be treated delicately they
16:58tell you when things need to be
17:00aggressive or soft and and Morrissey is
17:04a very dramatic guy and you know it was
17:08a lot of the songs were violence or very
17:13very very theatrical in ways and he'd
17:17always you know basically leave us alone
17:19the band and myself for the day and we
17:22worked the song he'd come in at night
17:24and he'd hear it almost always it go
17:26this is just fantastic I loved it but
17:28you know I think you're just being shy
17:31here in the bridge you know I think you
17:33could get much more violent gonna be
17:35scarier in the bridge you know songs
17:37about death and murder and you know I
17:40think you just need to be more over the
17:41top with it and you know I want to feel
17:44that intensity and so he was almost like
17:47a film director he was just fantastic to
17:50work with and and his vocal performances
17:53were stunning I would say we used
17:57at least 50% of those guide vocals
18:00became the final vocals in the record
18:03because it was all there it was all the
18:06character all the intention and the
18:08direction of song were there and those
18:11guides he he knew how to tell the story
18:14and told it in in those two or three
18:17take vocals that we did early in the day
18:19one last question about your overall
18:21production process working with artists
18:24like this or any of them is demoing is
18:27pre-production a big part of the process
18:29for you
18:30let us just pre-production is really
18:34important to me why is entail for you
18:36pre-production especially if I'm working
18:39with a band entails
18:41a couple of weeks in a terrible
18:44rehearsal room with things being too
18:47loud and too smelly and everything else
18:49but being able to tear apart the songs
18:54and look at them in different ways
18:57establishing the tempo the key the
19:01groove that's a really big thing to me
19:03getting the bass and drums to work right
19:06from there it's a matter of getting the
19:08keyboards and guitars to not fight with
19:11each other and you know nowadays
19:12everybody does extensive demos at home
19:16or in their rehearsal room or whatever
19:17it is and very very often those demos
19:20are part of the record obviously
19:22nowadays there's lots of software where
19:25you can change the tempo or key and use
19:28those initial elements that you created
19:30in the demo and they become part of the
19:32album and I would say every record I do
19:34now that happens a few songs that that
19:37key elements in a demo or part of the
19:40final outcome yeah now when you're doing
19:43this pre-production process and working
19:45through things and figuring out the
19:46groove figuring out the tempo is it more
19:48about doing it live in the room or is it
19:50more about recording it and listening
19:52back and you do it as a multitrack
19:54process if you're recording it or try
19:56not to get too into the recording when
19:59I'm doing the pre-production because I
20:01find for me it's the time I spend with
20:06the songs the song structure
20:09the heart of the song I don't want to
20:11get into coming up with a guitar sound
20:14that I want to save that for the studio
20:16so I want to work on the bones of things
20:19and till people I look at it like you're
20:21building a house and in rehearsal you're
20:24really kind of working on the foundation
20:27and perhaps the first floor of that song
20:30so that stuff has to get together before
20:33you can worry about what the doorknob
20:35looks like is it useful to document
20:38these things to have a reference for
20:39tempo where there's just a single mic up
20:41in the room or is it yeah I tend to do
20:43it a little bit more lo-fi it's just a
20:45iPhone recording or a digital recording
20:49and of some sort I always wish more
20:51bands would do that because I always
20:53sometimes get the sense with new artists
20:54when they don't go through that process
20:55they do their first record and by the
20:57end of the process they've learned what
20:59that records really about and they say
21:01wow if only we hadn't wasted our entire
21:03budget now we're ready to record and I
21:05always feel like if they do something
21:06like that with a guy like you where you
21:08get together you work through it and
21:10then at the end of that they say wow
21:13that sounded so good I wish we had
21:15recorded that for real yes this this
21:18happens a lot the other thing that
21:20happens is you know first albums similar
21:24to what you're saying band hasn't really
21:27played together right they might be
21:31doing demos but all doing them on their
21:32own or in their bedroom and I haven't
21:35really worked together as a group for a
21:38long period of time and it's very often
21:41that people will have their parts and
21:43not really realize what the other person
21:46is playing and when you start to in a
21:48rehearsal room strip things down and
21:51they're they're like really that's what
21:55you've played there I always thought
21:57that chord was minor you're saying it's
21:58major and things that no one notices
22:01because everybody was playing together
22:02or really hadn't taken the time those
22:05those things crop up on you know so I
22:07think it's a very healthy thing to sort
22:09of examine the the guts of a song in
22:13that in
22:14so I really insist on it for most
22:17projects sometimes you don't have the
22:21time to do it or for instance in the
22:24case of My Morning Jacket the guys had
22:27spent about a month by themselves in a
22:30cabin in Colorado working on songs so
22:33did their own pre-production so when I
22:35got involved they were sort of like I
22:37don't think we want to go back into a
22:39rehearsal room but I know well whatever
22:42you want to tweak we'll tweak in the
22:43studio and actually we did it here at
22:45avatar and and did that whatever changes
22:47were made to songs we did on the fly
22:50while we were tracking yeah
22:52great sounding recording I think that
22:53you only did one with My Morning Jacket
22:55right and I think it was a bit of a
22:56departure from their prior one which had
22:58such a signature sound and there's so
23:00much more diversity I feel like in the
23:02record they did with you was there a
23:04sense of trying to get away from being
23:07pigeon-holed in a certain way or it was
23:09there a certain sense of trying to do a
23:11departure from the prior record does
23:13that disgust it off no I don't think
23:15they wanted to get away from the past I
23:19think that they wanted to experiment for
23:22sure I think that they wanted to try
23:25different sounds different approaches to
23:27recording I think that Jim was you know
23:33in the the previous albums he really
23:36relied on reverb as really you know the
23:41main part of his vocal sound there's
23:43another member of the band it really was
23:44not it's a good way to look at it and
23:46the evil urges out he was not trying to
23:49get away from it but almost wean himself
23:52off it know when to use it and when to
23:55use less of it or when to use delays
23:58instead of reverb we did a lot of these
24:02really great it knowing like you know
24:04what I need a plate sounding reverb in
24:09my head and let me sing with that reverb
24:13because I'm gonna deliver a very
24:15different performance if I have that
24:17kind of reverb versus no reverb or
24:20versus a halt son I mean he plays it
24:24like an instrument he's really really
24:25good
24:26yeah really you can really hear him
24:27interact with him when we did a lot of
24:29stuff with our record to where we for
24:32certain songs we went for a almost R&B
24:35drum sound then we put them in the tiny
24:37little vocal booth in Studio a at avatar
24:40that has a punchy thick kind of 70s R&B
24:45sound to it because it's something the
24:48band wanted to experiment with and it
24:49was really a lot of fun for Patrick the
24:51drummer because you know when you're in
24:52a booth that small it compresses and all
24:56the sound comes back at you as a drummer
24:58as opposed to being this big wide
25:00cavernous studio where everything
25:03dissipates very satisfied well ended up
25:05being a very rich and diverse sounding
25:07record a really cool one well before we
25:10let you go I really want to ask what
25:13made you crazy enough to want to pursue
25:15a career and this stuff to begin with
25:16and now I know the story about you is
25:18that you guys started hanging out the
25:20studio got the assisting gig and then
25:22the engineer for Frank Zappa didn't show
25:24up and you were there and it's like hey
25:26you're the engineer now that's true now
25:28Frank Zappa is known for being you know
25:30difficult to work with so did you feel
25:35like you worked with a lot of difficult
25:36personalities early on and if so how do
25:39you work with difficult personality the
25:42funny thing is that it's not difficult
25:44for you he wasn't difficult for me at
25:45all in fact I find that people that
25:50producers are artists tell me are
25:53difficult
25:53they never are it's the ones that tell
25:55me aren't difficult it didn't to be but
25:58know Frank was Frank was a very
26:00brilliant guy or and very innovative
26:04risk taker Frank
26:07taught me to be fearless to throw out
26:11all the rules to take chances at every
26:16corner to be as outrageous as one could
26:20and I mean on a production level he was
26:23indeed rock before there was indie rock
26:25in the sense that you know he basically
26:27had a record deal with Warner's and told
26:31them to shove it and put out records on
26:33his own it was so successful team by
26:35himself exactly yeah and
26:38about him - it didn't he yep very smart
26:41in the way he toured and you know what's
26:44as his legacy what's proven to be a
26:46really wise move and maybe one of the
26:48first people that that did it at the
26:50time he would record every show live to
26:54the point where at one point later in
26:56his career he bought a remote recording
26:58truck and taped every show so the family
27:03archive of recordings is so immense I
27:06mean they'll never be able to to issue
27:09everything that was recorded or all the
27:12interesting things that Frank Zappa
27:14seeing him as someone who never got the
27:16chance to meet him but just his persona
27:18he's someone who could be so funny and
27:20so serious at the same time such
27:23absurdity with such a stone face almost
27:26a hint of aggression for you was was he
27:29fun to be around did you get a sense of
27:31funniness with him do you think he had a
27:32sense of humor how what was that like
27:35great great sense of humor oh he just
27:37you know
27:39so smart so eloquent in the way he
27:43presented concepts very astute
27:48politically yeah it definitely had a
27:51quirky bizarre sense of humor for
27:54perhaps but it was about being
27:57outrageous and I was about being doing
28:00things that somebody else would not do
28:03you know and taking those risks and
28:05that's one thing that I find most modern
28:08music doesn't take chances you know the
28:11business is obviously shriveled and it
28:14means that everybody is concerned about
28:16every penny they spend getting something
28:20on the radio so there's almost more it's
28:23constricted now we're with him it was
28:27like I want to do the most outrageous
28:29thing possible yeah and see if people
28:32will buy it you know I want to say
28:35something sing something outrageous and
28:37see if they get excited yeah you know
28:40well you know who's still taking chances
28:42I think Georgia Carelli I hope so I
28:45gotta say I think you're a little bit of
28:47him rubbed off on you because I listened
28:49to your productions today and I always
28:50feel like you're pushing something
28:52and I hope you keep on doing it for
28:54another 30 years or so because I love it
28:57thanks for yeah absolute pleasure this
29:00is really really great really great to
29:01have you here yeah thanks so much
29:04Justin Coletti here from sonic scoop at
29:06avatar with Joe chicka relly thanks for
29:09hanging out with us see you next time
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