Full transcript
0:00okay welcome everyone as you know my
0:01name is Aaron and today I've got the
0:03absolute pleasure of having Richard with
0:06us Richard so that I don't misspeak your
0:08surname or just represent you wrong I do
0:11know that you're from test mate but can
0:12you just give us a little bit of
0:13introduction of who you are and and what
0:15test mate does yeah sure so test mate we
0:18would be sort of one of the leading ux
0:20research agency in Australia so
0:22essentially we do qualitative user
0:24testing it's kind of like Common Sense
0:26testing you're getting users in front of
0:29a website or user experience to
0:30understand where they're getting stuck
0:32or frustrated for the purpose of
0:34improving conversion rates and
0:36ultimately getting a better result
0:37either through your marketing that the
0:39users on the website you know we do it
0:40for the likes of Telstra Westpac
0:42Mitsubishi Willies Services Australia
0:45those sort of companies and uh yeah very
0:47interested in how we can create better
0:49user experiences what we're going to be
0:50looking at today and obviously because I
0:52me I know you would agree as well the
0:54biggest thing that I really want to
0:56communicate to people when it comes to
0:57the whole Google ads process is it's not
1:00just what is happening inside of Google
1:01ads you can have the you know a common
1:02message I have to people is that you can
1:04have the absolute best Google ad
1:06structure highly optimized the best ad
1:08copy but if you're sending it to poor
1:10performing landing page you're just
1:11wasting money so that's why I wanted to
1:13have you on and we're going to obviously
1:16really be talking about the user testing
1:17process coming through the prism looking
1:19at from Paid ads obviously we'll be
1:21mentioning Google ads but we also this
1:23means the same and the same principles
1:24would hold true for any type of paid
1:26advertising so whether that be on on
1:28meta as well I think a great place to
1:30start would be you did mention it before
1:32in the introduction but if you could
1:33just talk us through what actually user
1:35testing is and the process that you
1:37undertake so user testing really you
1:41know we often sort of say qualitative
1:42user testing but essentially it's just
1:44common sense testing like it's it really
1:47isn't rocket science like what you're
1:48fundamentally doing is you're trying to
1:50get a group of people that are in your
1:52target market so you looking for people
1:54that may be in the in the market to buy
1:56your product or service and you're
1:58trying to get inside their mind so
2:00you're getting these group of people to
2:01go through your website or your
2:02experience and you're trying to get them
2:04to follow the normal flows so if you
2:06know got an Ecom site you're getting
2:07them to go there find the product that
2:09they want go through the checkout
2:11process start to finish and you're
2:12trying to understand what are the
2:14barriers for them how do they understand
2:16your site and are they understanding the
2:17way you're wanting them to understand it
2:19and then are they getting stuck anywhere
2:21they're getting frustrated you're trying
2:23to understand the impediments to
2:25conversion and then how can you improve
2:28it and you're doing it all in the
2:29context of speak to your customers you
2:32know the best way to improve your
2:34conversion rate is not what you think or
2:36what I think it's let's get the target
2:38market in front of it and it's a very
2:40very efficient process you don't need to
2:43test a lot of people to really get some
2:46very strong data on what you need to be
2:48looking at that's why in many ways I
2:50just encourage even if you don't have
2:51budgets to be doing a lot of user
2:52testing you know just to grab one or two
2:54people that are looking over it but
2:56essentially the process you're sort of
2:58asking what's the process you go through
2:59it's pretty simple so first of all
3:02you're understanding you know what are
3:03you trying to learn so you know you
3:05might have a problem that you're trying
3:06to solve you know conversion rates we've
3:07got a high bounce rate on this page or
3:09something's not working so then you're
3:11trying to then come up with a flow a a
3:14test plan that's going to test out that
3:16Journey that's going to really bring
3:17that more to light and then essentially
3:19you're just setting a series of tasks to
3:22get the user to go through to go and
3:24test it so you'd create a test plan so
3:26normally that would be something to the
3:27tune of you know first of all you may
3:29want to get them to gral landing page
3:31and they're explaining what are their
3:33first observations what do they think
3:34this is about you know you're trying to
3:36get a perception of how they're
3:37understanding the value proposition
3:38those sort of things and then you might
3:40be asking them what they're inclined to
3:41do next because you're trying to
3:43understand the strength of your call to
3:45actions or the visual hierarchy on your
3:47site and CH of what it's leading them to
3:48and then you'll set some tasks just
3:50common tasks you go and make go and
3:51research and find a product go through
3:53their purchase Journey so essentially
3:55you'll have this sort of test plan
3:57you'll then need to go and recruit your
3:58testers so you go through you find that
4:01this is probably the most important part
4:02is getting the right investors and you
4:04just want to make sure that you're as
4:06much as you can but I mean look any
4:08testing is better than no testing
4:09because you're going to learn something
4:10but as much as you can try to get those
4:14users that are actually relevant to your
4:16target market so essentially you know
4:18we've got a you know big database of
4:20maybe 10,000 testers around Australia
4:21but we so we just got to filter it out
4:23based on that but even still if you're
4:25doing it yourself you're just trying to
4:26find people that you're confident yep
4:28these are a good representation
4:30of people that might be buying our
4:32product so so you're saying especially
4:34for smaller brands or businesses where
4:36they may not have the budget for their
4:37own user testing because I know like for
4:39me an example I think of is when I do my
4:41own Google ads courses and those things
4:43so when I was creating that together I
4:45actually went and found I think it was
4:46eight different friends and it wasn't so
4:47it wasn't a high number that were
4:49business owners that didn't really
4:51understand Google ads and I took them
4:52through the course before I launched it
4:54public and basically went through the
4:55process does this make sense what am I
4:57missing and the feedback I got from that
4:58I was able to make some real great
5:00little tweaks to the course structure so
5:02essentially that's the same process that
5:04you're doing is you're just basically
5:05getting people to come through seeing
5:07the page you know does this make sense
5:09does it flow is it too wordy is it too
5:11boring you know are the messages not
5:13getting there yeah and like definitely
5:14there are elements of putting together a
5:16really good test plan but I would say
5:18just for the average person out there
5:19don't get too carried away on it doesn't
5:21have to be perfect exactly what you did
5:23you want to get a group of people in
5:24your target market to give you some
5:26feedback and you very quickly pick up
5:29the the most obvious problems and
5:31they're the biggest impedence to
5:32conversion exactly as you said you're
5:33getting those people to look at they're
5:35giving you feedback and then you're
5:36iterating on that and the other thing i'
5:37would say is one of the most powerful
5:39things is just the iteration so you know
5:41you'll do the testing you'll make some
5:43changes you do it again and you make you
5:46do what we found is if you're doing
5:48three rounds you will have a bulletproof
5:51solution it's very hard to have major
5:54usability problems after three rounds so
5:56you know you pick up most of the stuff
5:58in the first you know you make your
5:59improvements in the te by the third it's
6:01usually always very bulletproof yeah and
6:04I mean that's the one thing I mean think
6:05you would agree as well is that when
6:07websites first came out it was kind of
6:08like oh we've done that we never need to
6:10look at it again but a website is always
6:11you know especially when you're first
6:13launching a website or first launching
6:14your product you doing those initial RS
6:16of testing collecting data making
6:18changes collecting data again until you
6:20get those those states that you need all
6:22right hey there Aaron Young here thank
6:24you for watching this interview and
6:26because you are still watching this
6:27interview it's letting me know that you
6:29are really interested in learning
6:31everything that you can about Google ads
6:34now I may be biased but the best place
6:36to learn Google ads is inside of my PID
6:39Community which is called 10x Google ads
6:41and the reason for why this is such an
6:43amazing Community is because not only to
6:45every month do I give exclusive
6:47masterclass trainings on Google ads that
6:49I don't share on YouTube plus I also run
6:52live group coaching calls every month
6:54where I complete community members
6:56Google ads reviews plus you can ask me
6:59any question questions that you have
7:00about Google ads there is also the
7:02amazing Community Feed and this is a
7:05private Google ads feed where you can
7:07upload screenshots and you can ask
7:09questions and not only me and my highly
7:11qualified Google ads team but also you
7:14get support from over 400 individual
7:16members it would be my absolute pleasure
7:19to see you in my PID Google ads
7:21Community very very soon and the best
7:23thing is is that you get all of this for
7:25less than the price of a cup of coffee
7:27every day so why don't you switch out
7:29your daily cup of coffee for the best
7:30Google ads training knowledge that
7:32you'll get anywhere in the world and if
7:33you want to get an exclusive discount
7:35all you need to do is to follow that
7:37link in the description below and I'll
7:39give you a lifetime discount to my 10x
7:41Community all right let's now jump back
7:43into this interview so from all of the
7:44tests that you've done what are some of
7:46the biggest mistakes and let's just
7:48maybe go you know the top one or two
7:50biggest mistakes that you see where
7:52people are sending people from a paid ad
7:54campaign into a landing page what are
7:55two or three of the biggest mistakes one
7:57of the most common things that I would
7:59say is just not having a clear value
8:02proposition on your landing page and
8:04it's something that almost everyone
8:07lising probably thinks that they have a
8:09clear value proposition on their landing
8:10page we all do you know you build your
8:12website and you think it's amazing and
8:14you think it's very clear the one thing
8:15that is so evident through a lot of the
8:17user testing is the target market often
8:19just doesn't understand it the way you
8:21think that they will and there's
8:24sometimes you need to put quite a lot of
8:27thinking and take a back step to get
8:29that value proposition clear so what do
8:31I mean by that is just when a user comes
8:33onto the site within the first 20
8:36seconds you want them to have a very
8:37good understanding of what your offering
8:39is about like what makes you different
8:41why are you special and but what is it
8:43exactly that you're offering and there's
8:45there's a lot of work that goes into
8:46simplifying the message and having
8:49visuals that very clearly back up what
8:52you're trying to say so can be quite a
8:53Nuance but this is one of the most
8:55powerful things of the user testing is
8:57often you think you've got that covered
8:59and you've picked it off but from the
9:00user testing it'll often be clear that
9:02the users are not clear on your value
9:04proposition typically conversion rates
9:06are much lower so it's a it's well worth
9:09putting in the effort to just being very
9:12confident that that's coming across
9:14clearly yeah and the biggest thing that
9:16we always talk through I mean we look at
9:18this too when we look at Google ads
9:19campaigns or any paid campaigns with
9:21things obviously we check in Google ads
9:22but we're going very very quickly to the
9:24landing page and the big thing that we
9:25always see is we we try to remind
9:27clients all the time is that there's
9:28people are either by pain or desire so
9:31your proposition has to either help them
9:33solve a problem or it has to help them
9:35attain something they want to attain and
9:37they're the two like they're the two
9:38emotional levers that you're you're
9:39looking to pull on any other one or two
9:41real quick ones I would say another one
9:43is just being very careful about how
9:46busy the landing page is so you just
9:48need to be like often you're just trying
9:50to put too much in and it's just
9:52overwhelming for the user and they're
9:53not clearly able to break it down and
9:56you'll see often the better conversion
9:58sites are actually a lot simpler you
10:00know you often have more spacing you
10:02know simpler messaging it's really part
10:04of the art SK is how you can simplify
10:08something that's quite complex but make
10:10it easy to scan and absorb making sure
10:12it's a really clean landing page you
10:14know you often just see you know just
10:16too much on there and it's overwhelming
10:18and people aren't really absorbing the
10:19message even though your message is
10:21there people aren't absorbing it that's
10:23another one but then I would say the
10:25number one thing that is most important
10:28and I would say like if there's only one
10:30thing that you take away from this whole
10:33podcast or anything the number one thing
10:36is trust we see this over over and over
10:39again in our user testing and you need
10:40to be thinking why should my user or my
10:43customer trust what I'm saying why will
10:45they trust what I'm saying because that
10:47is so much of what's going on
10:49subliminally for the user of like do
10:51they trust you or not and so the thing
10:53that's often missing on landing page is
10:55clear trust signals that are helping to
10:57feed into that confidence the user and
10:59when I say trust signals things that I
11:01mean is reviews but independent reviews
11:03so it's like a Google review where it's
11:04more independent or an independent third
11:06party review or testimonials that are
11:08coming through you know or video
11:10testimonials so it's actually clear that
11:12it's not just a fake one maybe a video
11:14from the owner real photos not stock
11:17photos accreditations Awards thought
11:20leadership content brands that you've
11:22worked with they just all examples of
11:23like trust signals and you're trying to
11:25think about so you've got your message
11:26you got a clear message but you're
11:28really trying focus on why should anyone
11:31trust what I'm saying and you need to
11:33put in those subliminal messages there
11:36so that people are going oh yep trust
11:38you and that's a very important part and
11:41that's a good point that you put like in
11:43and around that I guess the power of
11:44imagery in there because you know if
11:46you've got a collection of three or four
11:47brands that you've worked with that that
11:49people can recognize straight away that
11:51takes away a lot of words that you have
11:52to say It's ability and the user is not
11:56even thinking about it but they just say
11:58it and it means something to them you
11:59know so those things are very important
12:01it's just thinking about where you're
12:03putting it on the page so that your user
12:05seeing it and that is increasing trust
12:07so that's yeah that's a big part of what
12:10drives can be we will park some of those
12:12points because we will come back to them
12:14um later because one thing I do also
12:16want to ask is what's the relationship
12:19between AD copy and AD assets so whether
12:21this is you know image ads video ads
12:24text ads what's the relationship between
12:26the ad that the user sees versus the
12:28landing page you know are there any
12:30clear parallels or anything you've
12:31learned that someone should really focus
12:33on well it's interesting actually so I
12:35would say it's just an area that's very
12:39poorly researched and also focused on is
12:43what is the user Journey from the ad to
12:46the landing page and that's something
12:47that we do quite a lot of user testing
12:49on now actually because initially we
12:51would just do user testing often just
12:53from the website and we're looking at
12:55that but we realize that actually it's
12:58very important the expectation that the
13:00user has going into the landing page and
13:03so what's very important when you look
13:05at your Google ads and your landing page
13:07is the expectation because when you set
13:09up your Google ads you're often doing it
13:11just to get maximum clickthrough rate
13:13you know like you're trying to improve
13:14clickthrough rates through catchy
13:15headlines you know and getting sort of
13:18stats of your value proposition out
13:19there now the user has a certain
13:22understanding in their mind then of what
13:23when they've clicked on it and it's very
13:25important looking at what is the landing
13:27page in relation to what they're
13:28expecting
13:29so if you have a certain value
13:31proposition that you're pushing in your
13:32ad make sure that that same value
13:34proposition is clear on the landing page
13:36there's consistency and you know the
13:38same thing for the main call outs that
13:40you might be doing always check what are
13:42the key value proposition and call outs
13:44that are happening on my ad and is that
13:47also clear on the landing page as well
13:49so just doing those checks is really
13:51important something that's we found is I
13:54completely overlooked when we go through
13:56and review I a lot of our teaching and
13:58training as well is when it comes to
13:59sort of AD copy especially is we really
14:02want to set the person up and give them
14:04a clear expectation already of what
14:06we're wanting them to do when they get
14:07into the landing page so it's kind of
14:08like a pre- conversion test and I mean
14:11obviously we need to have high
14:12click-through ratios but once you you've
14:14got a good standard click through ratio
14:16we then really start working on one of
14:17the better ways to improve efficiency in
14:19a paid ads campaign is to get people to
14:22sometimes not click on your ad because
14:24they're not relevant to who you are so
14:26one of the ways that we do that is that
14:27we do that by introducing a price
14:29especially if you're a higher or more
14:32premium service or product putting a
14:34price indicator there can cut a lot of
14:35things out or we'll also precue them on
14:38what we want them to do so if we're
14:39wanting them to fill out like a quote or
14:41do a phone call we're introducing that
14:43in the ad copy and then as soon as they
14:45get on a learning page we make sure that
14:46that's front center so you're basically
14:48kind of leading them through and it's
14:49kind of like a map directions no I
14:51definitely agree with what you're saying
14:53I think just you need to be careful too
14:55with the tone and specific messaging so
14:58sometimes in Google add copy you might
14:59be inclined to get quicker call to
15:02action or maybe you're you're implying
15:04something is a quicker process or like a
15:07cheaper or faster and it needs to be
15:11consistent then with what is on the
15:12actual landing page or their genuine
15:14offering as well so that's yeah one
15:16thing that I'd really encourage is just
15:18doing check and it comes back to I think
15:20everyone understands especially with
15:22Google ads the importance of keyword
15:23relevance to the the landing page we
15:26even bring that across to so you offer
15:28relevance making sure that what your
15:29what they're seeing in terms of the
15:30offer and expectation is also met when
15:32they hit on the landing page yeah yeah
15:35just on that I mean I know this is
15:36probably going to be very very different
15:38for different businesses and different
15:40Industries I mean just in your
15:41experience are there any I guess
15:44Benchmark conversion rates that
15:46businesses should be hitting for both a
15:48Leen business and an e-commerce so let's
15:50start with Leen what would you that's a
15:53really good question so I'll give you
15:54some broad numbers and then I explain
15:56what's important but for Leen in simple
15:59terms you should be expecting to get
16:00conversion rates between about 4 and 10%
16:03so that's a conversion to a phone call
16:06or a form submission to be honest it can
16:09vary quite a bit the thing that
16:11ultimately determines conversion rate
16:13like what you need is the cost per click
16:16and the value of your service so for
16:18example if you have a very high value of
16:20service the cost per click might be low
16:22enough such that a lower conversion rate
16:24is totally fine what we on is if the
16:27conversion rate is below 4 % we're kind
16:30of wired something's wrong there so
16:32we're going okay maybe the value
16:33proposition is not clear user experience
16:35isn't SM something's sort of gone wrong
16:37but usually above 4% you're probably in
16:40a Range where you can bid profitably
16:43with your Google ads that's ultimately
16:46you know what you're sort of looking at
16:47in terms of if the conversion rates are
16:49too low okay and then switching over for
16:51for e-commerce Ecom we typically find
16:54it's between 1 and a half to sort of 4%
16:58but there's a big I've seen Ecom sites
17:00converting at like 12
17:0215% and then it also comes to the type
17:05of advertising they're doing like are
17:06they are they really going just
17:08targeting bottom of the funnel High
17:09intent High converting or are they in
17:12expensive they're trying to grow their
17:13market so they're doing a lot of top
17:14level spending yeah so it ranges a lot
17:17as a broad brush check I'd say you
17:19probably struggle if you're converting
17:20it below one and a half% yeah probably
17:23going to find it hard to be commercial
17:25on Google ads and your your paid channel
17:28so it's kind of in that order but
17:31ultimately it is what it is based on the
17:33competition in the market cuz the
17:35competition's driving the cost per click
17:37so they're prepared to pay that because
17:39they are converting at a rate that's
17:42commercial for them right so it's kind
17:44of the market is helping to dictate you
17:46where you should be so it's sort of like
17:48you know if you look at the cost per
17:50click that well optimized campaign will
17:52be then you can sort of work out the
17:55Benchmark conversions that you kind of
17:57need to be at to be getting the kind of
18:00row that's going to stack up and
18:02typically those should be achievable
18:04because it's achievable for someone else
18:06evidence the fact that they're happy to
18:08pay that amount so it's a good way for
18:09you to go hang on the numbers dictate
18:12that I should be converting at 3% here
18:14based on what other people are paying
18:15but I'm only converting at 1% okay what
18:18might be going wrong you know like
18:20that's that's kind of the way I would be
18:21thinking about conversion right because
18:23unfortunately it just varies so much
18:25from different Industries and as you
18:27said Ecom to I can give you some good
18:29broad numbers but for specific
18:32businesses I would encourage you to look
18:34at your numbers and go okay what is my
18:36cost per click there and what is the
18:38value average value of purchase and a
18:40lead base what percentage of leads I
18:42can and you're right because when
18:44whenever we if we were to review a
18:46Google ads account we would basically
18:48you know when it comes to the conversion
18:50right if it's an e-commerce site or
18:52e-commerce brand and we're seeing that
18:53conversion rate under 3% we're straight
18:55away doing a bit of a dive and looking
18:58at you know what is their issue here are
19:01there other factors in terms of which
19:02make it make sense and a lot of times we
19:04find it there are things that need to
19:05improve same for Legion for us we
19:08generally use five as The Benchmark we
19:09go right there's something inherently
19:12wrong here but I think you bring some
19:14good points there is is that they're
19:15different for every industry different
19:17for every business and the numbers may
19:19still stack up for your business that
19:20they're lower than that but it's always
19:23looking at okay if we're below those
19:25marks let's have a look and just make
19:26sure that we're okay with it as a
19:28business yeah 100% it does it does I've
19:30seen businesses that convert at 1 and a
19:33half% run very profitably but yeah it is
19:36a it's it depends on say you got to do
19:38your own numbers on it but there's some
19:39good broad yeah Rich the one of the main
19:41reasons why I warned you on this episode
19:44is because I can't even remember 100%
19:46what I saw but I saw that you brought
19:48out these things of it was five core
19:50principles for landing pages so I wanted
19:52to spend some time talking about those
19:54are you able also just to give us some
19:57background on like as as a whole how
19:59many user tests have you done just
20:01approximately well we've probably done
20:0410,000 user tests would say it would be
20:08many thousands yeah so what we did for
20:10This research paper was we went okay
20:12let's look at as much as we can across
20:14the board of the different user testing
20:15that we've done what are some of the
20:18consistent principles that are leading
20:20to the best designs the best conversion
20:23rates the best user experience I mean
20:25ultimately there is a strong correlation
20:27between user experience and conversion
20:29right it's all qualitative user testing
20:30so what we're really putting together
20:32here is a guide on how to you know use
20:35these principles to get the best
20:36possible user experience but ultimately
20:39that should lead to the highest
20:41conversion and as we talk through those
20:43just so everyone knows as well what I
20:44will do is in the show notes and and in
20:47the description I'll be putting a link
20:48to how you can get in contact with
20:49Richard and also we'll also put a link
20:52into where they can access this data so
20:53yeah let's run with those top five core
20:56principles for learning Pages all of
20:58these probably feel quite intuitive to
21:00all of you because typically what you
21:03think is going to work well is usually
21:05what does work well but it's important
21:07to really go into detail and make sure
21:09you're doing them well so the first
21:12thing I would say that's really
21:14important is just a beautiful design so
21:17people like beautiful Aesthetics they
21:19like things that look nice and it kind
21:21of ties back into what I was saying
21:23before with like a cluttered landing
21:25page a busy landing page this beautiful
21:27design find can be a tricky one to get
21:31across because it's it can feel quite
21:33subjective you know it's like oh what is
21:35a beautiful design you know obviously
21:37you want to have a beautiful design but
21:38okay how do I actually get a beautiful
21:40design and I would say within that
21:42there's a few core things to start
21:45looking at you know consistent things
21:47that typically when you look at a sign
21:49oh that's a really nice design so one is
21:52just cleanliness like it's in like
21:53there's a lot of space you need to look
21:55at spacing between things so so things
21:59should fit neatly on a fold you know
22:01like so you look often you know people
22:02look on their screen either on the
22:04mobile or the desktop and there's a fold
22:06and you need to be thinking what fits
22:08neatly on a fold on a page and then the
22:10next fold and as people are scrolling
22:12down then like but even like text is
22:14really important you know often it might
22:16just be like three lines of text but not
22:18across the whole page often like text
22:20across the whole page is too difficult
22:22to read so it's actually often like half
22:24the width or different components
22:26depending on how big the section is or
22:27different size depending on se but it
22:29things need to be easy to scan so it's
22:32like it you want to have them sort of
22:34neat easy to scan also things like the
22:37design of buttons and and not having
22:40like shadings anyway there's It's tricky
22:42to explain but there's like you know the
22:45heading fonts and things like that
22:46contribute to the kind of like a modern
22:48feel but the best I can kind of like
22:50sort of explain in simple terms is lots
22:52of spacing clear visuals and like not
22:56using stock photography as much as you
22:58can if you are using stock just try to
23:00be really careful to make sure it's
23:02believable you know you want it to make
23:04sure that people aren't obviously
23:06looking at go oh that's clearly a stock
23:08photo so yeah you know having nice
23:10really clear visuals and clear call to
23:13actions as well so in the fold there's
23:15typically just one clear call to action
23:18so again it's probably something that
23:20you intuitively would know or you'd be
23:22thinking anyway but often just going
23:24through and checking those things is
23:26really important and even I'd say too
23:28just a simple one too just making sure
23:29like if you've got a dark background of
23:30a website you have really bright text
23:32and vice versa making sure you got that
23:34contrast so it's easy to read all right
23:36Easy Clean design is number one what's
23:37number two number two and it's more
23:39important than the first one is actually
23:42intuitive design so what I mean by that
23:45is people need to be able to find what
23:47they're looking for easily on your
23:49website so things need to be where
23:51they're expecting so there's a couple
23:53things to say to this is first thing is
23:55be very careful about doing things away
23:58from standard web conventions so what I
24:02mean by that is like you know website we
24:04typically have the navigation at the top
24:06typically the logo goes back to the
24:08homepage all sorts of things you know
24:10like the The Heading font is going to be
24:12larger than the body you'll have sort of
24:14standard things you know you'll have
24:15your hamburger menu on a mobile design
24:19but like there are certain web
24:21conventions and you want to be careful
24:24about being too crazy creative with your
24:27design because your opportunity cost is
24:30that the users don't easily understand
24:32where to go and where to look and that's
24:34a big cost actually so it's not to say
24:37don't do it but just you need to
24:38carefully consider that so sticking to
24:40user conventions is very important and
24:44then also just like call the information
24:46architecture so how are you grouping
24:48that information together so you know
24:50people go under like your products tab
24:53how are you organizing all the products
24:56together in a way that's easy to find
24:58and or like then your'll search as well
24:59like do you have a good search that's
25:01actually easy to find your products so
25:03really when we say intuitive design
25:05we're trying to reduce the number of
25:07error clicks or confusion from the user
25:10and this is where the testing becomes
25:12really important because you'll
25:13naturally think you've got it right like
25:15you'll kind of BU your design and for
25:17you it'll be intuitive but that's where
25:19you really want to test it so you're
25:21trying to test a variety of different
25:24tasks on your site and you just want to
25:26know if things are in the intuitive
25:29areas for the user the lower the era
25:31clicks the easier it is to find
25:32information better the user experience
25:34more likely they are and I think people
25:36be surprised how easy it is to get this
25:37wrong um I was watching a video and it
25:39was actually someone doing a review of
25:41um the YouTuber AR's site he's got like
25:43a I think it was like a a pizza Source
25:46they were selling and a buy now button
25:48went back to his homepage and he didn't
25:50know and so like a really really simple
25:52thing so and yeah is estimated like the
25:54amount of money he potentially could
25:55have lost just because that wasn't
25:57tested and it wasn't like simple little
25:59mistakes like that can make a big
26:00difference so and I would say it's very
26:03hard to get it right without testing
26:05because you inherently think you've got
26:07it right but you really want to get that
26:08feedback from your customers that yeah
26:11they actually can easily find the
26:13product or service that they're looking
26:15for and get the information that they're
26:17looking for you know what are the key
26:19bits of information that are important
26:21in the purchase decision like what are
26:22they actually trying to find and what's
26:24the hierarchy of that and then have you
26:27laid it out on your page so that the
26:29hierarchy is similar to what they're
26:30looking for because often there's a lot
26:32of peripheral content as well which is
26:34important but you want to have that down
26:35further on the page so it's not
26:37confusing the user when they're when
26:39they're first going through it so so
26:41Richard would it be fair to say on these
26:43first two points of nice design clean
26:45design and intuitive design it's really
26:47about removing friction so we've worked
26:49so hard to get the get them on the
26:51website we now don't want to scare them
26:53away by a poorly designed website but we
26:56also don't want to confuse them by a
26:58website that doesn't make sense is that
26:59what we're saying there 100% like when
27:01the users confused they're very hard to
27:04convert them and the point that I make
27:06is like you'll confuse them more than
27:08you think yeah and it's actually very
27:10hard to really simplify it and that's
27:13where you need to start speaking to some
27:15of your customers just to better
27:16understand what parts aren't clear to
27:18them because you'll look at it you be
27:20like but it's there why can't you I said
27:22that I was just on that line there but
27:24you didn't see it and then I say okay
27:26well actually that's a very important
27:27point how do we make that clearer and
27:30that's where we talk about you know
27:31having a clean design because then
27:33really highlight what is important the
27:35Temptation is you just want to put so
27:37much on there but actually there's a
27:39hierarchy of what's important and if you
27:40have a very clean design with less
27:42things there you can make it more
27:43obvious what you want to make obvious
27:45and that's part of the process you speak
27:47to your customers you're trying to find
27:48out what's important to them you want to
27:50make those things obvious all right
27:52great now let's move on to to number
27:54three number three so this one is speed
27:57so so yeah the faster your site is the
28:00higher the conversion now there's a
28:01couple of interesting points on this so
28:04you've got raw speed right so raw speed
28:07is essentially how quickly your website
28:08loads and actually there's a lot of
28:10research that suggests that for every
28:12second that you improve the speed it's
28:14about 10% Improvement in conversion rate
28:17I've typically found from our testing
28:19that that only holds true down to about
28:22a 3 second load time below that the user
28:24is not really frustrated it's not
28:26improving it that much but yeah
28:28particularly if you're over 5 Seconds
28:31there is going to be some frustration
28:32that starts to creep in and that's
28:34actually quite a material part to in
28:36where some gains could be in conversion
28:39amongst other things too like it plays
28:40into SE as well but the other thing i'
28:42would say from our testing is more
28:45important than raw speed is actually the
28:48perceived speed so it's not it's not
28:50actually what the real loading speed is
28:52it's how fast the user finds it and the
28:55reason why it's an important distinction
28:57and we we learned this through a range
29:00of our testing but the first time we
29:01learned it actually was on the banking
29:02apps CBA for example didn't have the
29:05fastest app when we tested it I think it
29:07might have been say westpack or
29:08something had like might have had a
29:11faster app but their app had really good
29:12loading signs and symbols and the users
29:15didn't really notice that they were
29:17waiting longer and they didn't get
29:18frustrated and so um they actually
29:21perceived it to be a faster experience
29:23because they had good loadings and
29:25intuitive design so interestingly when
29:28people can find what they're looking for
29:30through good information architecture
29:32through good intuitive design even if
29:34the raw speed is slower they perceive it
29:37to be faster so those again it talks to
29:40why intuitive design is so important
29:42because it it really plays into the
29:44perceive speed as well and we found that
29:46perceive speed was more important than
29:49the actual speed yeah so um but yeah but
29:52speed does p and the core message would
29:55be there as well is obviously it's you
29:57know once you're getting below that 3
29:59seconds any Improvement is going to be
30:01marginal but taking a site from like you
30:03know 5 Seconds to 3 seconds you're going
30:05to see a real increase in conversion
30:06rates yeah I yeah exactly over five you
30:09you've got a problem that you want to
30:10solve and then over three look don't get
30:12me wrong I'd love you know any site you
30:14want to get down to maybe two and a half
30:15or two or as low as you can but it's it
30:18as you exactly as you said it's marginal
30:20gains you end up spending a lot more
30:21money on what isn't really GNA have a
30:23major impact on conversion all right so
30:26let's move to number four what's the
30:27fourth we already we already talked
30:29about this so this is around value
30:32proposition so it's just so important
30:35that your users have a clear
30:38understanding what you're offering and
30:40so you know how do you use you know
30:42there's couple key things but how are
30:43you using your imagery that supports
30:46what you're offering and does your
30:47Imaging support your message and then do
30:49you have just a clear message that's
30:52explaining you know what you do but what
30:54makes you different you know why should
30:56people buy from you and I would just say
30:59don't assume that you've got it right
31:02it's a very difficult thing to get right
31:04even through iterative testing like
31:06often people still get confused about
31:09you know what why they should go there
31:10what what's different or even sometimes
31:12what you're even really offering when
31:13it's a Nuance thing so that's an area
31:16that it's just worth testing and testing
31:17and testing and trying to refine if we
31:20could just probably with this value
31:21proposition because obviously for
31:23e-commerce Brands the value proposition
31:25is probably a little bit not easier but
31:28in terms of because it's a physical
31:29product like the tech specs and those
31:31type of things can help it B when it
31:33gets over to like service based
31:34Industries digital products anything
31:36like that do you have any examples of
31:38things that work like in terms of
31:39because some of these things you need to
31:40explain why your service is 50% higher
31:44than other people's Services is there
31:46anything that You' sort of found Works
31:47in that what I would say is testing is
31:50what really works so you'll have a good
31:52sense of your own business and what
31:55things you're trying to get across the
31:57question is are actually getting it
31:58across so you need to test a few
32:01different messages on there to see what
32:04the users are absorbing with it because
32:06it's a combination of like you're trying
32:08to get across what do you do so you want
32:10you want the US understand what you do
32:12but then also why they should go with
32:14you and so you're trying to get across
32:16quite a bit in a small amount of text so
32:19it's often you know there's just
32:20different phrasing that you want to try
32:22so you you know you might be inclin to
32:23put it in quite long because there's
32:25quite a lot you're trying to get across
32:26but the longer it is the less the user
32:29is absorbing so there's no real one
32:32answer here I would just say you know
32:34you've got to go with your best guess
32:36because as the business owner you
32:38probably have the best guess of what it
32:39is but then you just got to see okay
32:41what do my users understand from this
32:44okay yep that's exactly what it is or if
32:46not how can I modify this messaging what
32:48part didn't I understand let's try a
32:50different one and then keep trying to
32:51get the right version but it is even
32:53just that simple one it's like even if
32:56you just take a screenshot of what is a
32:57above the fold on your page and send it
33:00out to some people that you know they're
33:02in your target market and go what does
33:03this mean to you and you'll probably
33:05horrified in a lot of cases what they
33:08actually think it is versus what you
33:10were hoping them to to get and it's like
33:12it often dumb founds me where I looking
33:14up like wow yeah okay we really we
33:17really didn't get that across at all is
33:19that example of I mean I I've got
33:21teenage daughters who are going through
33:23their exams at the moment and their
33:24assignments writings and that and it
33:26comes back to you know they'll be
33:27writing assignment and then you come and
33:28read it you go have you have you read
33:30this like and it just comes back to I
33:31remember when I was at un2 if you've
33:33looked over something so many times you
33:36can just miss the most obvious things
33:38which make sense so that's why yeah the
33:39real message is getting other people to
33:41have a second look over it the other
33:43thing I'd say especially as well when it
33:45comes to that part of your value
33:47proposition is really looking at testing
33:49it all the time so do taking like
33:51getting people going to your website
33:53they go hang on our conversion rate
33:54hasn't changed or it's dropping what
33:56part of our valued proposition
33:58we need to miss out 100% but I would say
34:00like it might feel daunting to test it
34:02all the time if you're testing it
34:04consistently you're going to be so far
34:06ahead of your competitors even if you
34:08just test it once you're gonna learn a
34:11lot and you you'll then you'll very
34:13quickly see oh yeah okay this is very
34:15valuable so but like just encouraging
34:18people just to even just get out there
34:20and just get some of their Associates to
34:22look over it you'll learn very quickly
34:24what coming across now let's finish up
34:27with uh big number five the last one is
34:30my favorite one and I think it was like
34:32the probably the biggest surprise as we
34:34kind of went through all the testing
34:36over the years but it's as I sort of
34:37mentioned before it's around trust so
34:40you know what are the trust signals how
34:43can you convince someone to trust you I
34:45mean it's it's flab sometimes I've seen
34:48horrible sites ABS you look at them
34:50you're like this looks terrible but have
34:52really high conversion rates and it's
34:54simply because the user trusts that
34:56they're going to get a good result you
34:57like that they they trust in the brand
34:59or they they trust in the offering and
35:01so it's something that we often spend so
35:04much time trying to make it look good
35:06and again that is important that is an
35:08important factor but the trust is the
35:12most important thing yeah he's going why
35:15is someone why should someone trust what
35:17I'm doing and you just need to get that
35:19across it's a very strong conversion
35:21driver I think people would understand
35:23obviously trust is you know obviously
35:25the reviews we're going through but some
35:27other things we've really worked with
35:28well found well with trust is actually
35:31that can sometimes be the power of a
35:33Blog the power of a YouTube channel the
35:35power of LinkedIn profiles because if
35:37people go to those so they see your
35:39business is you know really active on
35:41social media if they see your business
35:43is you know if it's if definit it's an
35:45information business they can see that
35:46you've got different papers or different
35:48followings in different areas that helps
35:50with the trust so that's one thing
35:52because people think oh trust I put some
35:54reviews up but sometimes there those you
35:56know the social the social media trusts
35:58make a big difference when it comes to
35:59converting other thing I'd say there is
36:01as well is even things around your price
36:03guarantees or your money back guarantees
36:05or those things are also a big mover in
36:08helping people to trust because
36:09ultimately people don't want to get
36:10scammed if they feel like that they
36:13there's there's a cooling off period or
36:14there's a refund period that it makes it
36:16a lot easier to buy 100% And it's good
36:18to think about that is like what else
36:21can we do to get across more Trust on
36:23that so it's exactly like is there a
36:25guarantee that we can provide and maybe
36:26there's not like you can't give a full
36:28guarantee on everything but it's like
36:30well what can I guarantee any of those
36:32sort of things give as you were sort of
36:34just saying you know give the user more
36:35confidence so you know pushing yourself
36:38to get those extra trust signals they
36:40really they really go a long way yeah
36:43hey Richard it's been an absolute
36:45pleasure having you here and just a
36:46reminder to everyone in the show notes
36:47in the description I'm going to be
36:49putting down where you can get in
36:50contact with Richard we'll also put a
36:51link into this um the data that's those
36:54five points that we spoke about as well
36:56but thank you for joining me and and uh
36:57we'll look forward to seeing everyone on
36:58our next episode see you later thanks
37:00Aaron a real pleasure