How To Survive Drone Warfare In Ukraine (Ukraine Veteran)

0:17[music]

0:18>> Yeah, yeah, hello.

0:23It might seem silly to learn this

0:25episode, but throughout time in history,

0:27people have learned that learning about

0:29warfare, but being ready for warfare

0:31isn't silly at all. People have found

0:33themselves having to defend their homes,

0:35their families, and their countries.

0:37Today, we're going to be taking a stark

0:38look at the Ukraine war, and

0:40specifically what has been occurring,

0:42what the reality of it is like. There is

0:45nothing that was beaten to me more as a

0:46military leader than to always to listen

0:48to the man on the ground. Today, we're

0:50going to be learning from the man on the

0:51ground as we take a look at the reality

0:54of warfare in Ukraine. And of course,

0:57all this information is kept free, and

0:58we really do have to thank our sponsors.

1:00Primary Arms keeps this information

1:02free, and they have done so for a years

1:03at this point. So, give them a big thank

1:05you. Give them an email. Ask them for a

1:07good recommendation in LPVO or a pistol

1:09optic. They have it all, and we cannot

1:11thank them enough. Guys, we always are

1:13happy and proud to be sponsored by BCM.

1:16Bravo Company USA is a great balance

1:19between price and the badassness of that

1:23rifle that you're actually getting. And

1:24this is a rifle that's been used all

1:25throughout the world. We're always going

1:26to recommend BCM rifles. Of course,

1:29guys, if you're looking for a gaming PC,

1:30you want to be able to get those skills

1:32up a little bit more on your combat war

1:34simulators, we have Side Axe. Their

1:36owner is a huge gun fanatic, and we love

1:38that. Go ahead and check them out.

1:39Finally, guys, all ammunition is

1:40provided for by Last Shot Arizona. You

1:43should only always always have go-to-war

1:46ammo, and they specialize in that

1:48high-performance ammo such as 70-grain

1:50TSX. Go on there, check them out. Always

1:52have at least 13 mags ready. With all

1:54that being said,

1:56talk is cheap for me. What we are really

1:58here for is to hear from our subject

2:00matter expert. For quick introductions,

2:02my name is Michael Jones, former Air

2:03Force special warfare guy, served first

2:05as a SEER specialist, and then as a TAC

2:08P. Now, with all that being said, let's

2:09go and invite on our guest right here.

2:11Can't thank you enough for coming out

2:12here today. Thank you for having me. Um

2:14go ahead and uh introduce yourself. I'm

2:16sure people are expecting a Ukrainian

2:17accent, but here we are. Yeah, I'm an

2:20American. I went over in Ukraine and

2:21fought for about a year. Prior civilian.

2:24Uh whilst in Ukraine, I was in a special

2:26forces detachment and worked primarily

2:28in a direct action role. Uh and I also

2:30did some subsidiary work as a GMG

2:33operator doing heavy weapons.

2:35So, quite a bit of experience, and you

2:36spent about approximately a year in

2:38there. All that time you were from um

2:40heavily contested areas to less

2:42contested areas. You ran anywhere

2:44anything from recon missions to counter

2:45drone. You pretty much did a large gamut

2:48of different operations within Ukraine,

2:49if I'm to understand everything correct.

2:51>> Correct. Correct. Yeah, most of the

2:52operations were going to be just general

2:55position holding fortification stuff. Um

2:57I also was only the exclusive team

2:59shotgunner for the back of trucks. So, a

3:01lot of CUAS stuff. Um I was the guy on

3:03the back of the truck that you see in

3:05the videos on Instagram shooting the

3:06drones down with a shotgun. Now, for my

3:08audience who's not familiar with the

3:09CAUS mean? It's essentially counter

3:12drone for layman's terms. Um anything

3:14unmanned, that's kind of what I would be

3:16dealing with at the back of the truck,

3:17whether it's a recon drone like a DJI

3:19Mavic or a similar platform, or it's

3:21something like an FPV via fiber optic or

3:23just true wireless. Well, I can't wait

3:25to go over so many different things

3:27today. Thank you so much for coming out.

3:28So, with all that being said, let's go

3:30ahead and let's delve into it. Do it.

3:40What the [ __ ] do you think I'm looking

3:41through, man?

3:48I understand one of the first things you

3:49want to talk about is just everything

3:51that we've kind of heard about Ukraine,

3:52which is trench warfare. What's the

3:54reality of getting into a trench, of

3:56moving between trenches? What is it

3:58actually like on the front right now?

3:59Yeah, so in a typical role, when you're

4:01going to be holding a position, you're

4:03going to be in a trench. The times of

4:05warfare where you're being outside in a

4:06tree line, moving around, it's over,

4:08right?

4:09Covering concealment is your best

4:10friend, and with the current kind of

4:12threat profile that we have on the

4:13front, which is going to be all drones,

4:15covering concealment is is very far and

4:17few between.

4:19Now, when you say covering concealment,

4:21are you are you saying that there's

4:22constant coverage and ISR surveillance

4:24on your position at all times? Correct.

4:26Correct. It may seem dumb, but the way I

4:28like to think about it is like you're in

4:29a department store, and you see all the

4:31dome cameras above you, right? Every

4:32square inch of that store is being

4:34watched by a security team. Now, what

4:36are what are Russians actually

4:37employing? Do they have Do they have a

4:39drone watch? Are they swapping out?

4:40How's it How's it working on their end?

4:42Yeah, so you have a a plethora, a big

4:44spectrum of different, you know, aerial

4:45ISR that's going on in the front. You

4:47have really big fixed-wing aircraft like

4:49the Super Cam is a very famous example,

4:52but more so that the personnel are going

4:53to be dealing with are going to be a

4:55smaller platforms, mostly quadcopters

4:58like a a DJI Mavic performing

4:59surveillance. And so what that looks

5:01like is the entire front is sectorized.

5:04Okay. And so because it is sectorized,

5:06it is also watched every single second

5:09of the day. You have a Mavic holding a

5:12position. So if we're in a you know, a

5:13trench like we are now, right? Anywhere

5:16above us, there's there's some kind of

5:18drone, usually a Mavic watching us.

5:21They're looking for movement, they're

5:22looking for any pixel that looks out of

5:24place on that screen. And when that that

5:27the flight time exhausts, which is

5:28usually about 30 to 40 minutes, another

5:31Mavic will come and replace it in that

5:33exact sector. So there is not usually a

5:36portion on the front line that is going

5:38to be that is going to be outside of

5:40surveillance 24/7 365 night or day. Now,

5:43as far as what's their standoff that

5:45they have those drones at so they can't

5:46be I guess engaged by you guys to be

5:48able to keep that surveillance. Yeah, so

5:50typically they are usually always in

5:52moving either flying some kind of

5:53formation over the position that you're

5:56in or more commonly you're going to be

5:58surveying a tree line. So there's going

6:00to be say maybe a kilometer tree line

6:02for example, it's very common where

6:04there is two, three, four different

6:06positions and essentially someone

6:08responsible for that sector is going to

6:09be either flying laps or doing S

6:11configurations or orbiting said

6:14positions. And so always in a state of

6:16movement is how they're going to avoid

6:17being shot down. Um and they're always

6:19going to be hovering probably I'd say

6:21anywhere from 100 to 250 m off of the

6:23ground. Uh and that makes it a really

6:25small target. I mean you're you're

6:26talking about a drone that's maybe a

6:27foot by a foot in in size.

6:29>> How how how far from the ground do they

6:31have to be before you can reliably hear

6:33them?

6:34I would say I would say being in Ukraine

6:36you develop kind of a slight tuning in

6:39your ears, you know.

6:41I would say you start to hear them

6:42anywhere under maybe 150 to 200 m.

6:46You'll start to hear a tiny little buzz

6:48and you'll be able to identify that

6:49there is in fact a drone over you.

6:51Interesting. So we're talking about

6:52being under constant surveillance. So if

6:54we're looking at this trench right here,

6:55so what my what everybody's interested

6:57in is should warfare devolve in whatever

6:59area that they are, whatever civil war

7:01occurs or whatever, what are some things

7:03that you guys have done to keep yourself

7:05concealed within your trenches as you

7:07move? So on positions that are further

7:10away from I guess you can consider it

7:12the gray area or the point of most most

7:14contestant Uh when you have a little bit

7:16better access to logistics, right? Cuz

7:18logistics makes the war. It does. Um

7:20you're able to bring in logs. Usually

7:23you'll see, you know, about foot in

7:25diameter logs are trucked in 1, 2, and 3

7:28m in length and you'll lay those over

7:30the top of the trench and completely

7:31close it. So you'll cover it with logs

7:33and then usually polythene and then

7:35maybe if possible up to 12 in to 3 ft of

7:38dirt to hide yourself.

7:39>> of the polythene? The polythene is to

7:41waterproof it. Ah. you know. That makes

7:43sense. Ukraine, just like the climate

7:45there where we're in now, is very wet,

7:46it's very muddy, and so it's it's not

7:49fun to exist in these conditions, as I'm

7:51sure you know. Oh, yeah. And so it any

7:53kind of uh mediation to keep water

7:56outside of the trench is a good thing

7:58because a trench very quickly becomes a

7:59swimming pool in the springtime when the

8:00snow melts.

8:01>> Now, that makes sense. Now, as far as

8:02depth of trench, I'm sure everybody's

8:03wondering. So, right here our trench is

8:05at about about 4 and 1/2 ft or so.

8:07What's the typical depth of trench that

8:09you'd see in Ukrainian use? We would try

8:11to dig them as deep as possible, right?

8:14Um the deeper the better. Uh I've been

8:16in a lot of trenches that were about yay

8:18high, about up to the chest level for

8:19me, which is what maybe about 4 and 1/2

8:215 ft. Yeah. Um

8:23you know, in a perfect world where a

8:25maybe a a position is a bit older, it's

8:27been fortified, it's really had time to

8:28dig in, you'll see 6, 7, 8 ft deep

8:32trenches. Um but I've also been in

8:35trenches that are just maybe two or

8:36three feet off the ground that are very

8:37new. So, it really just depends on how

8:39hastily the position was built. Okay.

8:41Now, the entire time you're in trenches,

8:43I guess the question is going to be

8:44threats that in the trench. So, suppose

8:47we can kind of move over to there. So,

8:48you're being spotted by these drones,

8:50which I would suppose is great targeting

8:52information for that. So, what's their

8:54typical targeting procedure that you see

8:57um that you've seen when you've been in

8:58trenches? Yeah, so it's really a matter

9:01of and I've spoken to some drone pilots

9:02on the friendly side as well. Um and

9:04I've asked them kind of what do they

9:06look for? What do you guys look for? So,

9:08when I go on a position, I can have

9:10these things in my mind to prevent kind

9:12of a you know, a leak of my position

9:14where they see us.

9:16The first thing for most is stay hidden.

9:18Don't leave the trench. Don't be walking

9:20around outside the trench. You know, you

9:22get on the position and you stay in it.

9:24Unless you have any kind of forward

9:25action or you're exfilling, all of your

9:27work can be done inside the trench and

9:28that's that's where you remain.

9:29>> And I understand you said somebody once

9:30came out to piss or something, and how

9:32long did it take for mortars to come in

9:33on his position? Yeah, so realistically,

9:35anything you do, like I said, because

9:37the the position is constantly being

9:39over-watched, right? They're just

9:40sitting there looking at a screen in a

9:42hole, and they're waiting for a pixel to

9:44move on that. And so, it really doesn't

9:47take a lot of time for them to see you.

9:49They radio a mortar or an artillery

9:51team, and within usually

9:54>> [music]

9:54>> I would say 45 seconds to 2 minutes,

9:56you'll start hearing outcoming or

9:57incoming mortars start popping off, and

9:59you'll hear the whistles as they're

10:00coming in.

10:011,000 bullets.

10:061,000 bullets.

10:08That's That's insane. Now, what does it

10:10take for them to actually target you

10:11with FPV drones, with with, you know,

10:13more targeted munitions, I suppose?

10:15Yeah, so earlier in the war, when drones

10:18were a bit rudimentary still,

10:21uh the drone teams used to be very close

10:23to the front. They were 1, 2, 3, 4 km

10:26away. Uh because modernization of the

10:29drones and technology, we're able to

10:31push that further and keep our drone

10:32units safer. And so, now you have a

10:34maybe a 10, 20 km before they're even

10:37crossing the threshold into enemy lines.

10:39So, you're seeing maybe about a 10-ish

10:41minutes, give or take, response time

10:44from radio call to the drone being put

10:46out by the sapper, and the pilot flying

10:48to your position. Okay. So, we've gone

10:50over a lot when it comes to that. So, I

10:52suppose a thing that we should really

10:53break down now is let's talk about the

10:55different types of drones that are out

10:56there that they might um encounter, and

10:59you know, the types of threats that

11:00those drones pose.

11:07This is up to you, man. Tell us about

11:08the different types of drones out there

11:09and what their capabilities are. What do

11:10you typically see? Right. So, as I

11:12stated previously, you have a a wide

11:14spectrum of drones being used on the

11:16front. Um stuff that's being employed

11:18for the first time, experimental stuff,

11:20tried-and-true things, long-range,

11:22short-range. The most common things that

11:24you're going to see is very

11:26high-altitude ISR being conducted,

11:28looking for military installations.

11:30Those are going to be your big

11:30fixed-wing aircraft like Supercams are

11:33the most famous Russian example. And

11:35those are the ones where you see Russian

11:36prop Ukrainian prop planes and they'll

11:38be shooting at them with rifles trying

11:39to blow them out of the sky and stuff,

11:40right?

11:41>> Yes and no. So So a [snorts] Supercam is

11:43going to be strictly for ISR. What

11:45you're thinking of like the very famous

11:47videos of the guy ripping an AK outside

11:48of the prop plane. Yeah, yeah, that's

11:50going to be like a Shahed. So that's

11:51going to be an unmanned you know

11:53Iranian drone that is targeting very

11:57very deep targets, you know, several

11:58hundreds of thousand kilometers away.

12:01>> Um the things that we're going to be

12:02dealing with as personnel on the ground

12:03are really going to consist of Mavics.

12:06Mavics being used as an ISR form as well

12:09as dropper drones.

12:10If you move a class up from that, you

12:12have you know a heavy lift platform like

12:14Vampire, a Baby Yaga, and those things

12:17can carry anything from you know

12:18multiple mortar system. They can also

12:21carry I've seen you know TM-62 tank

12:24mines strapped together with a with a

12:26Vog taped to the bottom of it so it

12:27explodes on impact. I've seen those

12:29dropped and leave a giant crater.

12:32And then you have FPVs, which like I

12:34said is a very big spectrum. You have

12:36everything from early war stuff like

12:387-in propeller with the classic you know

12:40you think of a kamikaze drone, it's that

12:427-in drone with the RPG warhead on it.

12:44>> That's what I think of. Zip tied on the

12:45bottom and just zipping around.

12:47>> Exactly. We haven't moved terribly far

12:49away from that. Things have just gotten

12:50a bit bigger. So now you're starting to

12:52see really common 10-in, 12-in, and even

12:55upwards of that with big big payloads.

12:58And the reason they're doing that is the

12:59bigger the propeller, the more efficient

13:01the drone, the longer it can fly. And

13:03and the more time that they have to get

13:05onto target. So because of that you can

13:07push the team back further, keep them

13:08safer. You can carry a heavier heavier

13:11payload like a thermobaric charge or the

13:13number of improvised devices that we use

13:15on the front. Um other than that,

13:18key differences now in the last couple

13:20of years is going to be thermal

13:22fiber optic. So with fiber optic, of

13:24course it renders electronic warfare

13:26moot. Yeah, so we we've been seeing a

13:28lot of that. So let's explain it a

13:29little bit to our audience. So our

13:31typical drones are running off of

13:33they're using a signal.

13:34What's the typical signal range of a

13:36drone that it's operating off of? I

13:37can't even think of it off the top of my

13:38head.

13:39>> Yeah, so in the consumer world, right?

13:40When when this is very rudimentary EW

13:42really wasn't a thing yet in the early

13:43war. We use consumer products. So

13:46everything was flying on a control

13:47frequency of about 2.4 GHz and your

13:51video link was connected via 5.8 GHz.

13:53>> Okay. With the implement implementation

13:55of EW, we've now kind of

13:57>> electronic warfare to be able to jam jam

13:59that. Exactly. Jammers, for lack of a

14:00better term.

14:02Because of that, we've had to migrate

14:04around with frequencies.

14:05So you have to think the higher the

14:07frequency, the shorter the wave, right?

14:10So less penetration.

14:12If you want more penetration, more

14:13range, you're going to drop frequency.

14:15So now you're seeing control frequencies

14:17get into the MHz side of things. So

14:19you're going all the way from 2.4, I've

14:21seen 1.2 GHz, 900 MHz,

14:24and and we're pushing this low as

14:26possible. And same with video, we

14:28fluctuated around. And of course there's

14:30a million different video systems being

14:32used, whether it's digital systems,

14:34whether it's analog systems. So [music]

14:35video fluctuates, but most commonly

14:38you're going to see control frequencies

14:39trying to get lower and lower and lower

14:41for more range, more penetration, and

14:42trying to avoid the uh the circum-

14:45the circumstances of electronic warfare.

14:47Sure. And so that's where the fiber

14:49optics. Essentially, you have a giant

14:51spool attached to these drones that's

14:53uncoiling a fiber optic line as it

14:55flies. Now I understand there are some

14:57limitations to the drones due to that.

14:59Is that correct? Yes, yes. So fiber

15:00optic, it's kind of uh

15:02it's kind of a double-edged sword,

15:04right? So you have a drone that is now

15:05hardwired to the user, to the end user.

15:08So the pilot has a ground station with

15:10the fiber optic plugged in and it's

15:12direct to their goggles or direct to a

15:14computer monitor where they're or

15:15watching the footage from the drone.

15:18And so the issue with that is, however,

15:20it is hardwired. It makes the drone

15:22heavier because of a big big spool of

15:24fiber optic cable. Because of that,

15:26multiple things happen. The drone is

15:28bigger, it's a bigger target. Also, it

15:31has to fly slower. Uh just because of

15:33the fact of of the fiber optic cable,

15:36it's about the thickness of your hair of

15:38one single hair. And so, it's very very

15:40very fragile. And so, if anything is to

15:43uh rip, pull apart, stretch, or damage

15:46that fiber optic cable in any way, it's

15:48a complete loss of signal. You lose

15:49control signal, you lose video signal,

15:51the drone is gone. It'll kind of just

15:52linger off and explode in the distance.

15:54And so, you can't fly very fast because

15:57how does the drone fly? Big spinning

15:58propellers. And that is, you know, a

16:00very big kryptonite to the tiny little

16:02uh hair-like substance of the fiber

16:04optic cable is.

16:04>> Yeah, so I'd imagine if they dropped

16:05altitude really quick or maneuvered

16:07really hard, it'd be very easy for those

16:08blades to catch the fiber optic line and

16:11sever that guy.

16:11>> Exactly, exactly. So, they're very

16:13limited to flight speed. Okay. So, we've

16:15talked about some of the different

16:16drones from the Mavics dropping to the

16:18FPVs to the um fiber optics. So, can we

16:21talk about some counter drone procedures

16:22that you've done um in the trench and

16:25how we can counter that? Like, is there

16:27any way to counter it?

16:29Camouflage is probably going to be your

16:30your biggest thing, right? Is not being

16:32seen. The biggest way to avoid any kind

16:34of threat is not being detected in the

16:36first place. So, the most important

16:38thing you could do is remember C&C,

16:40cover and concealment. It's it's taught

16:43all across the board in every other

16:44military in the world as being a massive

16:46priority. [music] And drones, it is only

16:49become more of a priority. Uh because

16:51like I said, everything is under

16:53surveillance constantly.

16:55Uh if you can avoid detection, you've

16:57already won most of the battle.

17:00And so,

17:01really, you're going to be seeing things

17:02like leaf suits being worn, full ghillie

17:04suits, um even for guys just running

17:06logistical routes and moving around the

17:08tree line. You know, I always even if I

17:10wasn't going to do any forward movement,

17:12say I was going back 2 km through my

17:14tree line to pick up ammunition and

17:16bring it forward to the position. Get a

17:17Starlink, whatever. I'm still putting a

17:19leaf suit on and trying to minimize my

17:21signature to any kind of drone.

17:23>> have that leaf suit that you use with

17:24you? I do, actually. We have to toss it

17:25on. Let's go and take a look at it.

17:33Okay, so right here we have the leaf

17:34suit on. First off, where is it from?

17:36Yeah, it's a leaf suit by Lapa. They

17:38call it the Viper Hoody V7.

17:40Um, they make different variations. They

17:42also see uh some people have the long

17:44cloak. Uh-huh.

17:45>> Um, I would kind of

17:46lean away from running the very long

17:48cloak in most circumstances unless I was

17:50like really doing deep movement just

17:52because it catches on everything. Um,

17:54here it's really cool cuz you have a

17:55detachable Viper Hood that you can kind

17:57of just wear over your kit and at least

18:00have some kind of cover and concealment

18:01from directly overhead. And I see these

18:03are very, very common um among I

18:06I would say both forces. Seems to be

18:08pretty much the standard the norm right

18:10now. Yeah, pretty much every kind of

18:12special detachment or special forces

18:14unit inside of Ukraine, whether it be

18:16foreigners, whether it be Ukrainian

18:17nationals, are going to be wearing some

18:19kind of leaf suit for cover and

18:20concealment. Is that due to the amount

18:22of fighting that's happening in the

18:23heavy vegetation? Cuz I would imagine

18:24like, you know, in some of the more

18:26desolate areas it's not so much

18:27necessary or is it just worn in general?

18:29It's worn in general and in more

18:31forested regions, say up in the north

18:33like Sumy for example where you have

18:35big, big overgrowth. Um, it's extremely

18:38useful. It's vital. You'll see guys

18:39wearing the the Viper Hood, the back uh

18:41cloak as well as the uh gaiters and

18:43pants as well uh just because of the

18:45amount of vegetation around. You're

18:46you're walking through bushes. So, if

18:48you could become the bush, it's a big

18:50help. But even even uh in a more Charlie

18:53Brown Christmas tree-like environment

18:54down in

18:55>> Do you want to explain the Charlie Brown

18:56Christmas tree? Basically just tree

18:58stumps, you know, trees that have been

19:00berated and berated and berated for the

19:02last 4 years now with mortars and

19:04indirect fire, drones, fires, you name

19:07it. Um, every tree in Ukraine in a tree

19:09line is pretty much a a near waist-high

19:12stump or the remnants of a tree.

19:14And and we would we would still Yeah, we

19:16would still use something like this just

19:19this no gaiters, no cloak or anything

19:22just to provide some kind of additional

19:24you know, cover and concealment against

19:27a drone. Just something to break up your

19:28silhouette and that's the biggest thing

19:30against a drone is breaking your

19:31silhouette up and not looking like a

19:33human. And I I know a lot of people are

19:34quick to point out that like thermal

19:36technology is obviously very good at

19:37seeing human heat, but even still

19:39fieldcraft is very important and the

19:41more clothing that you do have on the

19:42more standoff you have between clothing

19:44definitely helps with heat signature

19:46well. It's not like a human being is the

19:48only hot thing on the ground.

19:51Rocks, trees, everything also has heat.

19:53Being able to break up your signature is

19:55incredibly important. So, pretty much

19:57would you say whenever you exit the

19:58trench you'd have something like this

20:00on? I would try to yes, as much as

20:02possible. You know, if they're extremely

20:03lightweight, they don't add too much to

20:06you know, cumbrance to yourself. You can

20:08still move freely in them. They're

20:10they're very breathable. They're a mesh

20:11fabric underneath the leaves. So, you're

20:13not really

20:14taking any loss by wearing one. It's

20:16something that's just you should do it

20:18if you're leaving the trench or outside

20:19operating you should have it on.

20:27So, we're inside the trench now. You're

20:29obviously going to get struck by drones

20:30while you're here. What are some just

20:32tips, tricks, things that you've learned

20:34from your time? Yeah, I can't say it

20:35enough cover and concealment and

20:37probably the second biggest thing is um

20:40you know, it's not a it's not a shock

20:41that war is loud and so most people are

20:43going to default to thinking they're

20:44going to have to wear ear pro whether

20:46it's a pair of Ops-Core's, a pair of

20:47Peltor's, whatever. Um the the fact of

20:50the matter is is nobody really wears ear

20:52protection when they're operating on the

20:54front. Maybe under extreme circumstances

20:57if you're a a machine gunner or you're

20:58operating a GMG or you're a mortarman

21:01I understand, but most guys are doing

21:03any kind of forward work close to zero

21:05line are going to have their ear

21:06protection off. Interesting. Why is

21:08that? The reason is is is modern hearing

21:11protection, at least the stuff that we

21:12can use, is not

21:15great at picking up the frequency that

21:17drones emit. So, where your ears are

21:19finer tuned for a higher pitched

21:21frequency, active hearing protection is

21:23trying to drum out that noise. And so,

21:26it's you

21:27there's a a big detection difference

21:29between whether you have ear pro on or

21:30not. And that's probably the main reason

21:32is being able to detect drones. So, when

21:34you would hear a drone when you were

21:36told the drone was coming in, what was

21:37your standard procedure that you guys

21:39would do in the trench? If you're able

21:41to speak to it.

21:41>> Of course, of course. If you are I mean,

21:44there is a plethora of SOPs,

21:46but if you are say in a a very, you

21:48know, crappy, no offense, trench like

21:50you like you have here.

21:51>> Oh, this is a crappy trench. I agree.

21:53It's very open, you know, you don't have

21:55a blindage. You know, all you can really

21:57do is try and identify where the drone

22:00is. So, if we have a drone flying

22:02exactly that direction at us, you know,

22:04I'm going to try and find a wall

22:06that is against the drone and try and

22:08reduce my signature as much as possible.

22:10Got you. Um, you know, if you do have

22:13the luxury of

22:14having any kind of cover, a blindage,

22:17you have overhead covering in your

22:19trenches, or even an open part of your

22:21trench that has some vegetation growing

22:23in it, you're going to you're going to

22:25look for overhead cover. And that's

22:26probably the biggest thing that you need

22:28in Ukraine when it comes to cover and

22:29concealment is overhead, cuz that's

22:31where your threat is from drones.

22:32>> Now, you're telling me earlier about

22:34you'd often put camo netting up. But you

22:36said that there's a very interesting

22:37counter to that being used.

22:39>> Yeah, so I've been in a good amount of

22:41trenches where

22:43they're resupplied with big, big camo

22:45tarps. And you know, whether they're

22:46homemade from like NGO organizations or

22:48they're, you know, off-the-shelf camo

22:50netting, they get hung up and within

22:5324 hours the camo net's gone. And the

22:56reason is is most of these camo nets are

22:59some kind of synthetic plastic material.

23:01>> [music]

23:01>> And once they catch fire they go. It's

23:04just like a wildfire. They burn super

23:07fast.

23:09Russian drones being used in a position

23:11that I was in burning camel net with

23:13FPVs specifically made with

23:15big 1 L water bottles underneath filled

23:18with gasoline.

23:19So essentially they hit and they impact

23:20your trench and it flings fire

23:23everywhere and it burns off all your

23:24cover and concealment. Interesting.

23:26Interesting. I think I think you know

23:29I would say maybe 2 years ago we saw a

23:30lot of those videos where they'd take

23:32those thermobaric grenades and they'd

23:33point them down. Was that the reason for

23:34doing that as well? Was it burn out like

23:36cover concealment vegetation etc. Yeah,

23:38yeah. I've had experience with you know

23:40thermite being used as well. It's very

23:42very good against you know the the

23:45biggest piece of armor of a trench which

23:47is going to be logs, right?

23:48>> Yes. So I've seen a lot of FPVs say

23:52you have a very very well built blindage

23:54which is you know a 2 m deep hole

23:57underneath over the hole is you know big

23:59big logs.

24:01But over the logs what we do to cover

24:03them

24:04to hide them to cover and conceal them

24:06is backfill it with dirt.

24:08>> Yeah. So it just looks like there's

24:10level and you'll even throw grass and

24:11foliage over it so it just

24:12>> naturalize the terrain. Exactly.

24:14Exactly. So what Sewer days.

24:16>> [laughter]

24:17>> So so what teams will do actually it's

24:19it's very smart is they will hit the

24:22tops of these blindages once they

24:23identify them with standard explosive

24:26drones to blow away the dirt and expose

24:28the wood and once they expose the wood

24:31they send a drone with thermite on it

24:32they drop the thermite right on the wood

24:34it burns straight through it like it's

24:35paper.

24:37War is hell. It is hell.

24:39So we've talked a lot about trenches

24:42dealing with the drones. I think the big

24:43question everybody wants to know is at

24:45some point or another you're going to

24:46have to go you have to recon you're

24:47going to have to get ammunition. Can we

24:50talk about leaving the trench movement

24:51techniques and what you've seen?

24:59So at this point, you need to exit the

25:01trench cuz if I understand, supplies are

25:03not just dropped right to you, they're

25:04dropped behind lines and you have to be

25:06able to get to them.

25:08Correct. Correct. Yeah. Nothing is

25:09rarely, you know, just like the

25:11personnel themselves, you're never

25:13infilled to position. You know, infields

25:15are always going to be a mix of mounted

25:17and dismounted and that's the same with

25:18logistical stuff, too.

25:20>> [music]

25:20>> Whether it's logs being dropped off for

25:22reinforcement or it's ammunition, you

25:24know, a Starlink, you name it.

25:26Everything is going to be anywhere

25:27between, you know, 1 2 3 4 km, etc.

25:30back. You're going to have to leave your

25:32trench system and go fetch it and bring

25:34it back.

25:34>> If I'm not mistaken, the first time you

25:35infilled in, you had a pretty stark

25:37reminder of what the war was like, like

25:39the very first experience. Were you able

25:41to share that?

25:41>> Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't uh necessarily my

25:43first infield, but it was my first

25:44infield in a new AO, an AO that was uh

25:47much more complicated and uh and harsh

25:50than the previous AO that I worked in.

25:52Um you know, we're going through big big

25:55big mud fields. It's very uh muddy and

25:57deep and mucky uh out there. And so,

26:00there was a final maybe 500-m stretch of

26:03open terrain before our final tree line

26:06where we were going to dismount and then

26:07do our dismounted infield.

26:09>> [music]

26:09>> And uh as we're steaming through the out

26:11of this tree line and now into this open

26:13field, there's a few specs out in the

26:15distance kind of moving around, running

26:17around like ants. And uh as uh we got

26:19closer, I was able to identify that

26:21these are uh Ukrainian soldiers as part

26:24of a motorcycle assault team and all of

26:26their bikes were stuck in the mud. You

26:27know, you're talking about knee-deep,

26:28waist-height uh deep mud, tank tracks.

26:31It's just a mess. And so, imagine trying

26:33to ride a tiny little dirt bike through

26:34that.

26:35>> I ain't having it. You know, for them,

26:36obviously, it didn't go very well and

26:38all of their bikes were all the way up

26:39to the engine and gas tank in mud and

26:41completely leaned over and they're

26:43fighting for their lives trying to pull

26:44them out of the mud. You know, as we

26:46drive by, I'm watching them struggle and

26:47struggle and uh as we're about, you

26:50know, maybe 20 seconds out from our tree

26:52line, and FPV comes in and just takes

26:54three of them out. And the other guy,

26:56the fourth guy who part of that team,

26:57just ditches the bike and runs.

27:01Stark reminder. War is hell. So, exiting

27:03the trench, dangerous. So, tell us what

27:05we're looking for. Yeah, so in this

27:07scenario, if we're leaving a trench that

27:10is very outside of cover and

27:12concealment, you don't have a tree line

27:14that is running alongside or through the

27:16trench system to provide overhead,

27:18you know, there's there's not a lot you

27:20can do, but there's still some general

27:22SOPs that you can follow. You know, the

27:24first being have your personal

27:25camouflage on. You know, personal

27:27protection is is very important, wearing

27:30your armor, wearing, you know, soft

27:31armor and stuff like this. I would say

27:33arguably, you know, any kind of

27:35camouflaging gear that you have is

27:37arguably just as important in this

27:38conflict because, like I said, if you

27:40avoid detection, you avoid any kind of

27:43threat, really, unless it's some

27:45indirect fire.

27:46Um and so, really you want to focus on

27:49cover and concealment. You're looking

27:51around. You understand the route that

27:52you have. Say if we need to move exactly

27:54this way from the trench opening to go

27:56retrieve

27:57you know,

27:58you know, a dropped bunch of goods,

28:00whether it's ammunition, fuel for a

28:02generator, you name it. I'm going to be

28:04looking for the route and looking at a

28:05map and seeing where there's thick

28:08foliage that I can move through, you

28:10know, what I can do to minimize my

28:12exposedness to the sky, you know,

28:14>> of route route planning before leaving.

28:16>> Exactly, exactly. And and a good rule of

28:18thumb during route planning, especially

28:20when you have tree lines, is [music]

28:22is sky. You know,

28:24you want to find a route where you see

28:26the sky as little as possible. Because

28:28if you can see the sky, then what's in

28:29the sky can see you. What do you What do

28:31you say? Do not trust the sky? Do not

28:32trust the sky, yeah. Now, so, we're

28:35going to start actually, but what

28:37concerns you have beyond the sky that

28:40that you should be looking for on the

28:41ground? Yeah, a big thing in Ukraine,

28:43it's pretty much everywhere across the

28:45Eastern Front, is ordnance, Whether it

28:47is unexploded ordnance from mortars,

28:50artillery, a drone that lost signal and

28:53didn't detonate and is laying outside

28:54your trench, [music]

28:55as well as the more obvious answer,

28:57which is landmines. You have small

28:59anti-personnel landmines like the very

29:01famous PFM-1 or butterfly, toe popper,

29:04you know, it has a million names. You

29:06also have we've seen recently bouncing

29:08betties come into employment. Those are

29:10being used more now. And so any kind of

29:12ordnance you're always going to be kind

29:13of looking down for. And so I'm I'm

29:15tracking that they're actually dropping

29:17those from Mavericks behind your lines.

29:19So even even with a forward line, there

29:21really is no safety at any point.

29:24>> Yes, and this also comes into

29:26factoration in route planning, right?

29:28Because once you plan a route,

29:30typically that route doesn't exist for

29:32another 24 hours there after that.

29:34Because you may

29:36do a reconnaissance of a route

29:38and I've done this multiple times where

29:40you go out on a small fire team mission

29:42to do some reconnaissance and look for

29:44kind of a way to get your troops into a

29:46position for an assault, right? And so

29:48you spend all this time going out onto

29:51position, taking a risk, going through

29:53this this you know, minefield, going

29:56through this, you know, aerial threat

29:58and you hear back two days later that

30:00after you have been detected moving

30:02through that that that sector,

30:04Russian mines, whether it be Russian

30:06drones, whether it be Mavericks carrying

30:09butterfly mines, whether it be heavy

30:11dropper drones like the Baby Yaga or

30:14vampire style drones, big big big

30:16multirotor drones carrying

30:18a big plethora of butterfly mines

30:20spreading up to 100 at a time over an

30:22AO. And this could be very very

30:24complicated because you can you can walk

30:26a route 20 times and the 21st time it'll

30:29have ordnance on it that you didn't see

30:31before and you're two or three

30:32kilometers away from any enemy

30:34personnel. And it's the fact of the

30:37matter is is Ukraine has just become an

30:38entire minefield. So

30:40you have to treat leaving the trench as

30:42if it's your first time ever leaving the

30:44trench. Like I said, even if you've done

30:46the route 20 times before, that 21st

30:48time you'll find new things because

30:50stuff is constantly dropped from the

30:52air. Perfect. Let's show us what it's

30:54like. Yeah, let's do it.

30:56As I'm moving outside of the trench,

30:58I'm going to be looking at the ground.

31:01And it's it's a very confusing thing

31:02because

31:04you know, the air is so scary in

31:06Ukraine. It's a terrible thing. There's

31:07drones everywhere. The ground is just as

31:09dangerous, right? And so, I'm constantly

31:12scanning.

31:14And it kind of changes

31:16the way a patrol is typically done

31:18because, you know, you're taught,

31:19especially in like Ranger file

31:20scenarios, you are kind of at ready,

31:23looking forward, maybe scanning the

31:25ground.

31:26Whereas in Ukraine, it's a much bigger

31:28priority to constantly be stan- scanning

31:31the ground.

31:32Um very uh uh

31:34famous in my memory personally is uh

31:37one of my good friends as well as

31:38teammate lost a foot in one of our AOs

31:41just because uh there was a drone

31:43threat.

31:44He decided to run and not look at the

31:46ground. And what does he do? He takes

31:48about five steps through a route and

31:51steps on a PFM-1. Keep in mind, this

31:53route was previously clear of any

31:55ordnance,

31:56and it had been dropped the day prior

31:57before we did any assault work. So,

32:00you're always a big emphasis is looking

32:03at the ground. Looking at the ground.

32:05Looking at the ground. Looking at the

32:06ground. Looking at the sky. Other than

32:08that, all you can really do

32:10is look for cover, you know? This is a a

32:12very uh scary example of a of where

32:15movement would be taking place.

32:17So, in an instance like this, we're

32:19going to kind of blur the lines between

32:21SOPs

32:22and uh kind of just keeping ourselves

32:24safe by

32:26really increasing our movement tempo.

32:28So, if we were ever uh subjected to a

32:30very vast open space like this, you

32:32know,

32:33of course, I'm going to be thinking

32:34about looking at the ground, looking for

32:37mines, looking for places to cover. If

32:40there is no places to cover, like I'm

32:42standing in a very big open field, which

32:44this does happen,

32:45or a section of your tree line has been

32:47taken down,

32:48whatever.

32:49I'm going to be running. I'm going to be

32:51running, and I'm going to be assuming

32:53the risk of stepping on a mine to get

32:55away from, you know, an inherently

32:57larger threat, which is the sky.

32:59And so, really running is your only

33:01defense in something like this. If I'm

33:03in a more wooded area, like a tree line,

33:06I'm going to be looking for cover. I'm

33:08going to be always staying

33:09by the stumps of trees. I'm going to use

33:11you as a stump of a tree here.

33:13Or actually, we can move over to the

33:14tree line now. Yeah, we can do that.

33:15Let's do that.

33:16>> Okay, we are now in a little bit more

33:18overhead cover, so you can better show

33:21perhaps some of the techniques. Yeah,

33:22and and as I was stating to you just a

33:24few minutes ago, a lot of the SOPs that

33:26are used, you would think is common

33:28sense.

33:29But of course, you know, with the fog of

33:31war, with with stress, with being on the

33:33battlefield to a, you know, unknown

33:35enemy, you forget a lot of these things.

33:37A lot of these things slip your mind.

33:38And so,

33:39you know, the most notable is

33:42what I'm doing right now, which is a

33:43huge issue. Because if you look directly

33:45above me,

33:47open sky.

33:48And anywhere that is open, that a drone

33:51can see you, is a problem. And so, you

33:54know, in most cases, because as we we

33:57talked about earlier,

33:58>> [music]

33:58>> coverage is quite stark in some tree

34:00lines.

34:01You know, you're going to be looking for

34:03concealment where you can. You're going

34:05to you're going to kind of take what you

34:06got kind of thing. And so, in an

34:08instance like this, I'm going to just

34:10make a brutal obvious assumption that I

34:13should I probably shouldn't be standing

34:15under a direct open sky. And so,

34:18just moving to somewhere like this,

34:23underneath the tree,

34:28is is a good option. And um

34:31and like I said, it's kind of take what

34:33you get, right? And so you can't have it

34:35all. You can't This isn't a you know,

34:36war is not this perfect world scenario.

34:39And see and you know, Ukraine is a

34:40shining example of that. And so I'm

34:43breaking a big rule here by being

34:45bunched up with my teammate. And then

34:47it's an issue, but

34:49as we stated before, cover and

34:50concealment is a priority. And so

34:53if you have to kind of blur the lines in

34:55some areas like being bunched up to

34:57ensure that concealment is achieved and

35:00you know, you're you're you're your

35:01signature is as small as possible

35:03you know, it's it's the sacrifices that

35:05you have to make.

35:06Well, should we do some little bit of

35:07movement? Show them what that would look

35:08like when we call a halt and go into

35:09cover? Absolutely. All right, let's do

35:11it.

35:28Drone.

35:58So, after moving through that tree line

36:00you can kind of see how

36:02you got to work with what you've got,

36:03right? Yep. And breaks in formation

36:07spacing issues

36:09bunching up, it's all normal. It

36:10happens.

36:12And uh

36:13I'd like though to highlight one of the

36:15things that

36:16is a big big big issue with a lot of the

36:18new guys

36:20is when you call a drone hold when

36:22somebody hears

36:24uh sees more often they hear it before

36:27Uh and you you stop the formation.

36:30What you're trying to do when you stop a

36:31formation is not

36:34necessarily

36:36um you know, become invisible to the

36:38drone.

36:39You're trying to

36:40take advantage of the drone's weakness,

36:42which is

36:43it's 400 ft above you.

36:47And so, when it's looking down at you,

36:49they're not necessarily looking for a

36:51guy walking through the trees. They're

36:53looking for movement in the tree line.

36:55They're looking for silhouettes, they're

36:57looking for shadows, things changing.

36:59And so, causing

37:01or so, stopping the uh formation to hide

37:04or take cover from a drone is not about

37:06necessarily disappearing, it's about

37:08just holding still.

37:10And the biggest mistake

37:12that I see people do, that I was guilty

37:14of in the beginning, was

37:16when somebody calls a drone,

37:18you look up at the drone.

37:20And what you're doing,

37:22although you may think you're you know,

37:23you're acquiring a target or you're

37:25looking for the threat, is very, very

37:27detrimental because what you're doing is

37:30you're showing a bright white face to

37:31the drone.

37:32In a in a bunch of foliage and things

37:34that's green, brown, you know, you're

37:36looking up and there's a big side of a

37:38big set of white eyes looking up at the

37:40drone, it's very easy to see.

37:42And so, the best thing you can do, if

37:44you do have a viper hood, which you

37:45should,

37:46is have your hood on.

37:49Somebody calls a drone hold,

37:51and you just try and reduce your

37:52signature. So, tuck your gun up,

37:54bend down,

37:56and just listen.

37:59And that's probably the best thing that

38:01you can do to just avoid detection, is

38:03really just

38:05try and

38:06pretend like you're not there.

38:08Because

38:09if you move, if you're panicking, if

38:11you're trying to cover yourself with

38:12foliage, this is stuff that I've all

38:14seen. Ultimately, you get seen not

38:17because of what you look like or the

38:19appearance that you have on the

38:20battlefield, it's because of the

38:22movement that you're uh of your

38:24signature. You're moving around, you're

38:26causing shadows to change, and that's

38:28what gets you seen. So, the biggest

38:30thing being

38:31don't look up at the drone. Just remain

38:33still. Hold until further

38:36until further instruction is given. Most

38:38likely your team leader or whoever's

38:40leading your uh

38:42your patrol or the person that spotted

38:44the drone in the beginning will remain

38:46to

38:47will remain looking at the drone,

38:49spotting the drone, and that means

38:51nobody else in the formation has to do

38:52the same thing. Everybody just needs to

38:54focus on hiding and staying covered.

38:58Awesome. So, really good information

38:59there. So, from here, we're going to be

39:01notionally in the forest just you can

39:04see his movement techniques as we follow

39:06this little path up. He'll be showing

39:08you how he moves, what he's looking for

39:09with his feet as he's walking, and we'll

39:11be speaking to spacing so much as you

39:14can make it happen. Obviously, things

39:15get a little funky sometimes, but we'll

39:17see how it looks. So, please, sir, after

39:19you. So, as we continue to move through

39:21a tree line,

39:22as we stated earlier,

39:24I'm not necessarily looking forward. If

39:27I understand where my threat is, say if

39:30I'm moving between friendly positions,

39:32I'm not necessarily focused primarily on

39:34a threat in front of me.

39:36Although still important, I'm more so

39:39prioritizing up and down.

39:41Down meaning ordinance, up meaning

39:43drones.

39:44So, as I'm patrolling,

39:47I'm looking down

39:48and scanning up.

39:50Looking down,

39:52scanning up.

39:54And a very very very important thing to

39:56do

39:57when moving through any kind of

40:00environment

40:01is periodically

40:03taking a break,

40:06holding your holding your squadron,

40:08holding your uh

40:10your patrol,

40:11taking your ear

40:14protection off,

40:18and listening.

40:20Stop, look, listen, and smell. Exactly.

40:22Exactly. I mean, SILLS is ever

40:23important, especially in an environment

40:27where

40:28you hear a lot of leaves crunching, uh

40:30sticks breaking, people talking behind

40:31you.

40:32Um you forget

40:35that tiny, tiny little buzz of a drone

40:37hovering of you above you.

40:39And so, it's been many times first

40:41handed

40:42where I've stopped,

40:43taken a look at my patrol,

40:45looked back,

40:47take my ear pro off, and sure sure

40:49enough,

40:50there is a tiny little buzz coming from

40:52the sky.

40:53And you look,

40:54and sure enough, there's like a a Mavic

40:56sitting a few hundred meters away,

40:58just watching you. And

41:00you get up, you begin to move again,

41:02and what does it do? It just slides

41:05over. There's a Mavic over there.

41:07You can hear it.

41:08Like

41:103-400 meters that way somewhere.

41:12It's hovering. It's probably watching

41:13us. It's one of those things. It's not a

41:15It's not a if, it's when.

41:17Like I said, the battlefield is so um

41:20plagued with surveillance and aerial ISR

41:22that

41:23there is really no way out. Uh you will

41:25you will get seen, you will get attacked

41:28via uh kamikaze or FPV drones, you will

41:31get dropped on via drone droppers,

41:33and you will be watched. For sure, 100%

41:35you will be watched at some point during

41:37your operation. The first thing you're

41:39going to do, once you acknowledge the

41:40drone, you never panic.

41:43They've seen you.

41:44Running around, running away is only

41:46going to exhaust you.

41:48And so, what you really need to do is

41:50focus, understand that there is uh some

41:53kind of threat. Um and whether you don't

41:55you don't know what this threat is,

41:57which can be panic inducing. It could be

41:59confusing, because you don't know

42:01whether this drone's pilot is uh on the

42:04on the phone with a mortar team, on the

42:05phone with an FPV team, or if there's

42:08actually no active um heavy weapons or

42:11artillery or anything, and they're

42:12simply performing ISR. And so, you don't

42:16want to panic, you don't want to freak

42:18out and run around and make a bunch of

42:19movement. You need to just

42:21keep your composure, remain camouflaged,

42:23and maybe change your route a bit. So,

42:26I see that I'm kind of in the open here.

42:28I can maybe

42:30stand up.

42:32I'm going to keep my patrol held.

42:36I'm going to look for a new route.

42:38Once I identify something,

42:40formally bring them up,

42:42and begin movement again.

42:44And what you're going to try and do

42:46is look

42:48and find the best spot to possibly get

42:51away from this drone, because you have

42:53to keep in mind that

42:55the drone sees you now, it knows the

42:57direction that you're moving. It's going

42:59to be there. It's not going to go away

43:00unless you can shoot it down,

43:02it's not going to go away. So,

43:05the biggest thing to keep in mind is

43:07these these uh

43:09ISR drones, like DJI Mavics, they can

43:11fly for roughly

43:1320 to 40 minutes. And you're going to be

43:15on the shorter side of that, because

43:17they've already commuted the 10 km, 5 km

43:21to the front line. And so, you have to

43:23think in your head, "Okay, I understand

43:25this drone can probably only stay

43:26airborne for maybe another 20, 30

43:28minutes."

43:30So, my job for the next 20 and 30

43:31minutes, until that drone goes away, and

43:33you will see them fly away, you'll hear

43:35them leave,

43:36is I need to prioritize

43:40moving to a place where

43:42it just makes it hard for the drone to

43:43see me.

43:45And so, moving into a terrain like this,

43:47down here,

43:48you can see how I stick out against the

43:51background.

43:52You know, I look like a soldier.

43:54But if I move

43:57into an environment like this,

44:00it's much harder to see me. And again,

44:01if I

44:02practice what we were talking about

44:04earlier, and reduce my silhouette as

44:05much as possible here.

44:07I have my hood on

44:10and I turn down

44:14it becomes much harder to detect. And

44:16that's the the

44:17drone mitigation and being seen by ISR,

44:20you know,

44:21the mitigation is not getting away.

44:24It's kind of making do with what you

44:25have and just practicing SOPs to remain

44:30as hidden as possible. You also have to

44:33keep in mind that

44:34a big point of

44:36a Mavic is to call in enemy fire.

44:39So, if you are

44:40on a team, a direct action team, and

44:42you're moving through a tree line

44:44and a Mavic sees you, what do they do?

44:47They radio another drone team, a

44:48kamikaze team.

44:50And you have to keep in mind these

44:51cameras on these kamikaze drones are

44:53much, much, much worse. It is a very

44:57grainy, very low-resolution footage,

44:59typically under 1080p. It's very It's

45:01very, very low. You have to keep in mind

45:04maybe the Mavic sees you, but that FPV

45:06that's going to be coming over the tree

45:07line in maybe about 5, 10 minutes, it's

45:10going to have a harder time find you

45:11finding you as long as you practice

45:13those SOPs that we were talking about

45:15previously in the video, which is hiding

45:16as best you can. Now, with the exception

45:18of mortars and some of those more common

45:20indirect fires that we know from big

45:22military days, um when it comes to your

45:25FPV drones and even your drones that are

45:27just dropping grenades,

45:29is it best to stay within a tree line to

45:30help mitigate that? Yeah, yeah, you

45:32typically never move outside of the tree

45:35line

45:36um unless the things have really gone

45:38wrong. Sure. Um

45:40I

45:41off the top of my head,

45:43I was a part of 47 combat missions on

45:45the front. Um I had one instance where I

45:49uh left the tree line and ran down a

45:51road with my team. And the reason for

45:53that was because we were taking IDF and

45:56we were taking cluster. Okay. Um and uh

45:59shortly after the cluster started

46:00dropping, we understood that things were

46:01going very very wrong on this exfil. We

46:04were seen. We were trying to move during

46:06the twilight hours, kind of the shift

46:08between kind of that golden hour, the

46:10shift between you know, thermal cameras

46:13and regular cameras. It's a great time

46:14to travel. Yes. Actually, that's that's

46:16something to speak to. Of course.

46:18>> Um so, as you go from night time to day

46:20time, day time to night time, that

46:22sunrise sunset, um it's that thermal

46:24crossover. It It's a hard time for both

46:27cameras. It's a hard time for your

46:28daylight cameras. It's a hard time for

46:30your night time cameras because for the

46:32night time cameras like thermal imaging,

46:34everything is heated up. Trees are

46:36heated from the sun. Rocks are heated

46:38from the sun. Earth is unevenly heated.

46:40It's much harder to detect a human being

46:42during that time compared to like the

46:44dead of night when everything is

46:45starting to cool down a little bit more.

46:47Although, it's still a little bit

46:48cluttered. So, that's what he's

46:50referring to and it's a great time to

46:51travel. Correct. Correct. And thank you

46:52for explaining that. That's kind of what

46:54we try and focus on is is is moving uh

46:57during these uh like thermal crossover

46:59periods. Um however,

47:01uh

47:02an issue with that is repeatability and

47:06uh a routine. Sure. It's very very very

47:09digressive to always move at the exact

47:11same time because if your enemy is

47:13watching you and observing you

47:14performing ISR on you, uh they

47:17understand that this is a repeatable

47:18thing. And if if it happens over and

47:20over and over If it happens 20 times,

47:23odds are you're probably going to exfil

47:24at that same time the 21st time. And so,

47:27you always try and fluctuate and kind of

47:29like I said, with these swords, it's

47:30kind of making do with what you got and

47:32doing what you can and being flexible.

47:34Um and this instance where we ran

47:36outside of the tree line was because we

47:39decided to leave an hour earlier than

47:40thermal crossover and it was still dark.

47:42Mhm. And so, we're under night vision.

47:45And uh if anybody has ever walked with

47:46night vision through a very very densely

47:48uh

47:49uh compact tree line, it's not fun. It's

47:52very difficult. It's annoying. Uh your

47:54your night vision is never focused on

47:55the right thing. And you're bumping into

47:57stuff.

47:58We started taking uh indirect fire. Uh

48:01it started out with some smaller shells

48:02and then it moved into cluster.

48:04Uh and so we we began to pick up the

48:06pace a little bit. And as we did that,

48:08we're snagging the rucksacks on more

48:10things, we're dropping stuff, we're

48:12losing pieces of kit in the tree line.

48:14And uh

48:15soon thereafter, we started taking SPG.

48:18And uh SPG is is is a terrifying thing

48:20because it flies so fast. Uh whereas,

48:23you know, you can hear mortar and

48:24artillery coming. You can hear the uh

48:26the incoming shots. And so you kind of

48:28know, if you're paying attention enough,

48:30you can hear the incoming mortars and

48:32you can begin to take cover. SPG doesn't

48:34really give you that that time. It flies

48:37much faster on a direct flight path. And

48:39so once we started getting hit with SPG,

48:41we kind of determined um just in the

48:43moment that it was just time to go. It

48:45was just time to move as quickly as

48:46possible. And we uh you know, made a

48:48judgment call and uh assumed a huge

48:50risk. We left the tree line and ran down

48:53the road as fast as possible. Um and

48:56like I said earlier,

48:57you're going to have to kind of uh just

48:59like bunching up with Mike here and when

49:02we're trying to hide from a drone,

49:03you're going to have to compromise a lot

49:05of your SOPs and kind of blur the lines

49:07between them and find middle ground. Um

49:10because in that instance where I'm

49:11running [music] full speed from SPG

49:13fire, I'm not focused on ordnance on the

49:15floor. I'm not focused on there is a

49:17thermal FPV above me. I'm just running

49:19and trying to get out of there.

49:21Absolutely. Uh it's definitely a very

49:23complex environment. So I suppose one of

49:25my last questions were um if we get into

49:27the tree line right up here, can you

49:28show us um general things that you would

49:30do were you being targeted by an FPV or

49:32say a fiber optic drone? Maybe speak to

49:34that a bit. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'll

49:36come back out of the tree line here.

49:38You've been targeted by FPVs.

49:40You're already in the forest. What is

49:41your go-to as far as mitigating that and

49:43making sure that they either can't get

49:45to you or to protect yourself more?

49:47Right. Right. So um you've kind of found

49:50yourself up shit's creek, right? You

49:52have been detected. And now you've been

49:55not only detected via ISR, you've been

49:57detected via an attack drone, a strike

50:00drone, you know, an FPV.

50:02Um or even a dropper. And so

50:05it's kind of a very it's a series of

50:07hard questions you have to ask yourself.

50:09You know, is it escapable? You know, and

50:12the only the only

50:13real way that you can answer is it if

50:15it's escapable is it is if you have a

50:17visual of the drone. If you see what

50:19kind of drone it is. Or you can hear

50:21because you can hear the subtle

50:22differences between like a kamikaze and

50:24a Mavic.

50:24>> Yeah. Um and you you know, with a

50:27kamikaze

50:28you have very little time to react. With

50:30a Mavic, say if a Mavic hovers, you

50:32know, 30 40 m above us and drops the

50:34grenade. Unless it's a VOG um which is

50:37not as common uh anymore. If it's a

50:40standard, you know, uh you know, tongue

50:42release grenade, you're going to hear

50:44that fuse pop. Okay.

50:45>> And so once you hear the fuse pop, you

50:46know, you figure you have 3 and 1/2

50:48seconds to leave wherever you are

50:50standing and try and find some kind of

50:52shelter.

50:54Um when it comes to a dropper, the best

50:55thing you could do, um like I said,

50:57counterintuitive SOPs

50:59is if you can determine it's a dropper

51:01keeping an eye on it and understanding

51:03where it is because you could see

51:05uh the drop happen and you understand

51:08where it's falling and you could run the

51:09other run the other direction or try and

51:11seek shelter

51:13the best you can.

51:14Um when it comes to something that's

51:15faster moving like a FPV, it's it's a

51:18hard thing to deal with.

51:20>> Sure.

51:20>> It's a very hard thing to deal with. I

51:21think we're all familiar with the

51:23kind of force multiplication that a

51:24drone has against

51:26uh you know, a standard member of

51:28infantry.

51:29And so really it's kind of it's a the

51:32questions that I ask myself are not how

51:34do I eliminate this threat or how do I

51:36completely get away from this threat?

51:37It's how can I give myself the best

51:40chance of survival against a superior

51:42firepower.

51:43And so I'm going to adjust my vision

51:45here and start looking for things like

51:47tree trunks, rocks, you know, natural

51:50formations that you can you know, kind

51:53of hide behind. Just like earlier in the

51:55trench where we kind of took cover

51:56behind that berm, the wall of the

51:58trench. It's the same kind of logic.

52:01You're trying to compact yourself and

52:03hide

52:04because really the threat that you're

52:05facing is not necessarily blast damage,

52:08it's shrapnel. And so you're trying to

52:10get behind things that could potentially

52:12stop or you know, slow the travel of the

52:14shrapnel to mitigate injury or like

52:17prevent you from becoming a casualty

52:18essentially. And so I'm going to be

52:20looking for things like tree trunks or

52:22thick vegetation like we have here or a

52:25rock or

52:26even something like getting behind down

52:29in this forest here that's really tight

52:31and has a lot of hanging sticks Sure. to

52:34try and get as far away from a potential

52:36blast because I can think that

52:39an FEB is here, it can easily fit

52:41through the gaps that we're talking

52:42about here to the sky.

52:44>> You know, maybe it's going to have a

52:45hard time getting through this tiny

52:47little

52:48you know, a circle of trees that we have

52:50around here. And so you know, something

52:52like this as small as insignificant as

52:54it is, this single thing can save your

52:56life against the drone. And so thinking

52:58about the terrain and just understanding

53:01that

53:03you know, you're kind of in a bad

53:04position and you just need to think

53:05about minimizing and reducing risk. And

53:09you know, kind of going back to cover

53:10and concealment, it's getting

53:12concealment. It's getting cover. It's

53:14wedging yourself into a tiny little nook

53:16and cranny of a tree. It's something of

53:17the sort. Well awesome. You mean no

53:19matter what it sounds like you're always

53:20having to break some rule in order to

53:22survive. It sounds like it's always kind

53:24of weighing every option that you have.

53:26>> Correct. Now we've gone over a lot at

53:28this point. So I figure what we do now

53:30is we could go ahead wrap this up, give

53:32our final thoughts and stuff. Any

53:33further kind of little tips and tricks?

53:36Ultimately this is just going to be a

53:37primer for these guys, but we can't

53:39thank you enough for coming out here. So

53:40let's head back and let's uh finish it

53:42up. Sweet. Thank you, Mike.

53:47>> [music]

53:49>> So, we've gotten here to the end. Um

53:50we've gone over a lot of information.

53:52It's been a huge information dump dump,

53:54a lot of videos, etc. So, here at the

53:57end, is there any general information

53:59that you'd like to give to people, any

54:00final tips and tricks before we kind of

54:02finish things out? Yeah, definitely.

54:03It's um

54:05kind of I see it's easy to see uh like a

54:07a theme during this video is is

54:09modularity and not being stuck in your

54:11ways. And I think that's one of

54:15the biggest lessons taught by this prior

54:17conflicts

54:19some practices work,

54:21some are very detrimental. And so, you

54:23can't be stuck in your ways. You have to

54:25be flexible. Um you know, cover and

54:27concealment, first and foremost, above

54:29pretty much everything else is going to

54:31be your main priority. Um

54:33and just staying alert. Um little

54:35tidbits like removing ear pro,

54:38practicing sills, you know, stuff like

54:40this is the stuff that's going to save

54:41your life. It's not a very um glorious

54:44war where you're kicking down doors and

54:46clearing rooms. You're really trying to

54:48survive most of your time out there on

54:49the front.

54:50>> It is interesting that from war to war,

54:52things change, things go back to the

54:54same. We're seeing a lot of old

54:55techniques being resurfaced. We're

54:57seeing just a complete change over. Just

54:59like there's such a change from Iraq to

55:01Afghanistan to Syria. Just like you're

55:03going to see a change from Ukraine to

55:05whatever future war there is. But

55:07there's always going to be something to

55:08glean from every single conflict because

55:11beyond that, the technology evolves,

55:13drones,

55:15then the tactics will evolve. So, I

55:16can't thank you enough for coming out

55:17here and giving us a kind of a little

55:19taste of how things are and of course

55:21how things work for you. Obviously, this

55:22is a very short uh primer for you guys.

55:25This isn't going to replace training for

55:26you guys at all. This isn't going to

55:27replace experience.

55:29But the very least, it can help you a

55:31little bit in your training regiments

55:32with your friends and be able to give

55:34you a little bit more information. Um

55:36obviously, I got to give you a plug a

55:37little bit. All my friends hate drones.

55:39Got a little IG page, you got to check

55:40it out. But that being said, we got into

55:42the end here, guys. Thank you so much

55:43for watching. We always got great

55:44things. I guess the final thing that we

55:46have is what we always do, give a little

55:47bit of life advice. So, outside of war,

55:50what's a little bit of life advice you'd

55:51like to give to our audience? You know,

55:53we'll use this outside of war

55:55and we'll use this outside of war

55:57and also inside war as well, just like

55:59we talked about in this video, is

56:01you know,

56:02always be able to be flexible. You know,

56:05never be stuck in your ways because, you

56:07know, failure to assimilate, failure to,

56:10you know, acclimate to any kind of

56:12environment is going to be a failure.

56:13Whether that's in your personal life,

56:15whether that's working, whether you're a

56:17guy behind an office behind a desk at an

56:19office job, or you're on the front

56:20trying to survive drones,

56:22never be, you know, never be too

56:25comfortable in your own ways and never

56:26be too ignorant to adapt to those ways.

56:29Love it, man. Thank you so much. Guys,

56:31stay tuned for great stuff. As always,

56:33you got to check out the Patreon. We

56:34have all the best stuff out there. And

56:36if you're looking for a little bit of

56:37lighter fare, we do play some fun video

56:38games, so you don't have to focus on the

56:40doom and gloom of being struck by a

56:41drone, blown up, and we'll have a good

56:43time, guys. Thank you so much for

56:45watching. Tons more great things coming.

56:47Talk to you later.