Full transcript
0:00incredible panel right now. Um I want to
0:03start off with every because you guys do
0:06all complex things and I'm a
0:09journalist so I want to understand. So
0:12start by telling me what your company
0:15does in like a tweet tweet length
0:17summary and make it simple so I can
0:19understand it.
0:20>> I want you next to me so you go first.
0:22>> I'll go first. I'm the founder of
0:23Rundown. It's the largest AI newsletter
0:25in the world and we educate people on
0:27how to use AI in five minutes a day. Um,
0:30our mission is to upskill a billion
0:33knowledge workers to work at least 10%
0:34faster and yeah, that's uh that's our
0:37goal.
0:37>> Perfect. Chase.
0:38>> Super. We educate people uh here in the
0:41state of Ohio and around the the nation
0:44using AI skills and we do that in
0:46person. Uh, it's our job to be the AI
0:48experts in the room, but to allow all
0:50these people in all these different
0:52industries to leverage that in whatever
0:54they do.
0:55>> Very cool. Giara,
0:56>> I'm co-founder and CTO of Chima. We're
0:59an applied AI research lab backed by YC,
1:02Elad Gil, Peter Teal, Michael Dell, and
1:05we essentially put together generative
1:07AI worlds for enterprises.
1:09>> Car's going to help me with my social
1:11media because they can have all the
1:12machines do that. So, I'm psyched. So,
1:14first off, let's start this conversation
1:16with, you know, our focus here is the
1:18future of work. What are you guys seeing
1:21right now that's changing? Everyone's
1:22talking about either a doomsday scenario
1:25where everyone has no jobs or like a
1:27utopia. Like, where are we right now in
1:30kind of the AI and work changing mode?
1:33You know, Rowan, I know you you're
1:35you're living this every day. Um, kick
1:37us off and I want to hear everyone's
1:38opinions.
1:39>> Yeah, I mean, uh, there's no being
1:41around it. Things are definitely
1:42changing. Um but I think fundamentally
1:45there I mean as an educator just an
1:47education problem. So uh there's a lot
1:50of fear that's going into everything and
1:52I think that
1:54right now AI is the great democratizer.
1:57Um anyone who didn't know how to code
1:59can now code. Uh they can build their
2:01apps. Uh if you look back in like
2:02history, how many really talented
2:04designers could have never been
2:06designers because they didn't learn
2:07Photoshop? Or how many talented writers
2:09could have never been writers because
2:10they didn't know how to write for
2:12example? Uh and the same thing is
2:13happening with like internet skills. So
2:16anyone can create apps, anyone can
2:20market, anyone can learn how to do these
2:21skills using AI. And I think like we
2:24need to reframe it as a education
2:26problem rather than a uh fear.
2:29>> Oh, very cool. What are you teaching in
2:31your classes?
2:32>> Sure. Um I think a lot of it's
2:35interesting in in a sense. I I think
2:37this was given the word the AI
2:39revolution and I think that's justified.
2:42I'm an engineer. I come from an
2:44engineering background and so I
2:46understand at the bottom of this are
2:48transistors flipping switches to create
2:50emergent properties fundamentally
2:52through algorithms that then allow
2:54people to take advantage of those. The
2:56big difference let's say November of
2:592022 to now is that everybody has the
3:03ability to control machines with their
3:04words. Right? That's the step change.
3:07That's what's breaking this out of, hey,
3:09you're an engineer. You can do these
3:10great technical things to now everybody
3:13can do these incredibly cool things as
3:15solutions builders, right? Building
3:17solutions, solving problems. That's what
3:20I'm seeing.
3:22I think what we're seeing is workplaces
3:25being flooded with AI slop, but we're
3:28also seeing the general usage and
3:33productivity of people completely
3:35changing because previously where it was
3:38you being able to pen something or write
3:40an email, now it's how can you interact
3:43with a tool chat GPT or clude to write
3:46that email. So the actual um sort of
3:50muscle to be able to be productive in
3:52the workplace is completely changing.
3:54It's how can you prompt the model to be
3:57able to get an output to get you further
4:00and how can you prompt it so that it
4:02feels like you so that it sounds like
4:04you so it doesn't sound like your
4:05coworker or with an M dash or um sounds
4:10like something that you would do preai
4:13as well. You know, I always used M
4:15dashes and now M dashes are getting a
4:17bad like bad rap and I I gotta, you
4:19know, I got to figure this out because
4:20like I want to I'm I'm loyal to the M
4:22dash, but I'm like, do I use a comma
4:24now? Do I use something else?
4:26>> Keep the M dash.
4:27>> Keep the M dash, right?
4:28>> Yeah.
4:28>> Yeah. So, they they'll know my writing
4:30because it's it's so bad that like a
4:31machine would not have done that. So,
4:33that is good. What is the um I want to
4:35say how many people out here use AI
4:36every day?
4:39>> Okay. How many people out here are using
4:41AI instead of Google searches?
4:44Okay, that's that's scary. Um,
4:46interesting. Very cool from the media.
4:49What is the hype? What out there is hype
4:51right now and what out there is real?
4:54>> Uh, well, I mean, in terms of use cases,
4:57I think what we're seeing right now is
4:58coding models are really good at coding.
5:01Um, so coding is where things are taking
5:04off. We're starting to see the design
5:07really taking off. So, I don't know if
5:08you've seen Nano Banana, but it's a nano
5:11banana by by Google.
5:12>> Okay. So it's a basically image
5:14generator that al also can edit images.
5:17So it can edit specific parts of your
5:18image. Um so we're starting to see new
5:22new technologies for every single
5:23industry. Um but yeah, we're still very
5:27early on. Um the agents aren't fully
5:31here yet. The agents were promised for
5:342025 for those that don't know. So it's
5:35like autonomous agents that can do real
5:37world work and they're not fully here
5:39yet, but they're coming. Um, we're
5:41starting to see it early on with code.
5:43Uh, but yeah, things are things are
5:46undoubtedly changing.
5:49>> Sure. Um, hype as far as I'm concerned
5:53is anything that you can't necessarily
5:58put your hands on right now, right? I
6:00mean, hype is something that can be a
6:03distraction either positively or
6:05negatively. What we really focus on are
6:08trying to find where AI works and where
6:11it doesn't work, right? Because we we
6:13hear, you know, the market is crashing,
6:15there's a lot of slop, bad things are
6:17coming, all this good stuff. Noise. How
6:20are you using it? How are you going to
6:22continue to use it? Almost everybody in
6:24here raised their hands to do what you
6:27do even better. You know, it's a matter
6:29of staying focused on your work
6:31outcomes, increasing those. like you
6:33said, how do you make it a voice that's
6:35preAI? How do we control quality for
6:37ourselves and our work output? And
6:40really, let's not go down a lot of the
6:42rabbit holes when it comes to anything
6:44else as far as I'm concerned.
6:45>> Very cool.
6:46>> Car, you're on the cutting edge of this.
6:48What do what do you see as
6:50transformative and what do you see as
6:52people are just again like Trey said,
6:54making noise? So I think as Rowan
6:57mentioned there's sort of the age of the
6:58agent but apart from that I also think
7:02that
7:03AI isn't going to expand our
7:06approximately seven hours of daily
7:08digital engagement. It's going to
7:10compete with that time that we already
7:13invest until we have sort of AI native
7:17devices or neural implants. What that
7:20means is that it's essentially going to
7:22compete for the time that you already
7:25spend. So it is different to the mobile
7:27era because mobile created new minutes.
7:30AI is trying to steal the existing ones
7:33that you have. So that means that
7:35everything that you see whether it be
7:37through Meta's AI feed or uh through AI
7:40swap on Tik Tok is is trying to take the
7:44time away from other things. And so that
7:47also means that how you interact with AI
7:50is going to be so um immersive in every
7:54sort of platform that you use that it is
7:58trying to grab your attention in every
8:00way. So how you invest your attention,
8:02what you watch, what you consume is
8:05going to be more important now than
8:07ever.
8:09Talking about careers, I heard there was
8:11a statement I heard that I liked that
8:13was saying you don't have to worry about
8:15AI taking your job. You have to worry
8:17about a human who's using AI taking your
8:20job. Do you guys agree with that or is
8:23that just again just a a cute little
8:25phrase and we should be very worried
8:27about AI taking jobs?
8:28>> I think it's generally accurate. Um I
8:31did a five minute quick fiveminute talk
8:34yesterday on AI intuition which I think
8:36is like this new emerging skill. I think
8:38there's these meta skills are kind of
8:39emerging. Uh and AI intuition is one
8:42that's really important which is a skill
8:43of knowing when and when not to use AI.
8:45So, um, AI swap is obviously pretty bad
8:49right now and it's because this, you
8:52know, people are getting forced AI use
8:54in the workplace and
8:57there's good there's pros and cons,
8:58right? We're seeing these massive
8:59productivity gains and you can really
9:00use AI as a superpower in so many
9:02different ways already. But on the other
9:04hand,
9:06if you're using it for things like, you
9:08know, slop on Tik Tok or LinkedIn
9:10comments or like responding to emails
9:12when it could have been like a bullet
9:14point, um that's not productive, right?
9:18So like no one's teaching that aspect of
9:21it. And I think um to your point, like I
9:24think a intuition is a skill that that
9:26needs to be learned. And then also like
9:27learning how to learn is another skill
9:29that that should be learned. And there's
9:31just new skills that are evolving. And
9:34um generally if you're if you're not
9:37keeping up with things then you know
9:39people who are developing these meta
9:41skills will be ahead in in this next
9:44era. I want to just I want to hear
9:46everyone but I want to dive in what you
9:48said about AI slop and generative um you
9:50know creation. You were you fascinated
9:52me ran because you talked about how you
9:54use AI to be at two places at once and
9:57to create your Instagram and Tik Tok
9:59videos with an avatar. Tell everyone
10:01just really quick how what what what
10:02goes on there.
10:03>> Really quick. Okay. Um so basically I'm
10:05a writer first. I write a big newsletter
10:08and I'm also a founder. So I run 15
10:10people on my team and it's really hard.
10:12I work like 80 hours a week and my
10:14entire audience was saying hey can you
10:17create short form video and you know
10:20it's obvious we should be also turning
10:22my writing into short form video. But I
10:24never had time to to do the video. So we
10:27ran these experiments. uh we were very
10:28open that we're going to try this and
10:30you know we're the we're the forefront
10:31of AI education. So we basically said
10:33hey we're going to use an AI avatar my
10:34face and my voice and we're basically
10:36going to take my writing as a script.
10:38We're going to push that into the avatar
10:40and we're going to create these reels uh
10:42and see what happens. Um, it's a not
10:46even a year later and we're over 150,000
10:49uh followers on Instagram. And yeah, I
10:53mean it's a it's a pretty cool workflow
10:55because it allows me to create content
10:58while I'm sitting here. Uh, my editor
11:00can basically keep pushing that content
11:03uh while I'm in multiple places at once
11:05or while I can source more stories and
11:07do writing, do what I'm good at. I'm not
11:09that great in front of camera. Uh, so my
11:11avatar is a lot better. Uh so ultimately
11:12it's like we're producing better content
11:15uh using AI and
11:18another point is it's not click to
11:20generate. Uh this is not simple to do.
11:23Uh it t still takes my editor like 3 to
11:24four hours to put everything together
11:27but it scales my time as a founder.
11:29Right? Even though like recording a
11:31video would only take a few minutes a
11:33day. That alone like doing my hair and
11:36getting in front of the camera that
11:37alone takes time away from me being a
11:40founder. Um, so this basically allows us
11:42to to scale our company faster. It's
11:44it's a niche workflow, but I think
11:45people find it pretty cool.
11:46>> Let me see. He's real. This is not an
11:48avatar. He's the real the real fresh and
11:50blood. Um, Trace, what about you? What
11:52what are you thinking about about jobs,
11:54job evolution, job destruction?
11:56>> Yeah. Watching
11:58this technology come into the let's say
12:03society at large, right? We all have the
12:05ability to interact with this technology
12:06just using our words has opened up um
12:10let's say this opportunity on one hand
12:14that is just incredible right I mean to
12:16your point earlier about 10% efficiency
12:19across the society I mean if we could do
12:22that just in the state of Ohio where we
12:23have 5 a.5 million working people it
12:26would be like creating 550,000 jobs
12:29overnight right no more you know no
12:32wider roads solves a bit of the housing
12:34issue, water infrastructure, all this
12:37good stuff. And then you say, okay, well
12:39then what about those half million
12:41people that no longer need to be hired,
12:43right? I mean, this is the work that
12:45Jobs Ohio is working on. Bringing in the
12:47Intels, bringing in the Joby Aviations,
12:49bringing in Andre, bringing in Honda EV
12:52because we don't have enough people to
12:53do this work, right? So AI is an
12:56opportunity to do that. And then don't
12:58even get me started on how when we as
13:00humans consider things a problem, our
13:02ability to solve that problem is just
13:04unbelievable. Look at what we did during
13:06co right if we identify a problem that
13:09affects all of us like AI, we come
13:11together in really incredible ways,
13:13right? And we take care of the problem.
13:15We really and truly do. I mean, it's a
13:16tough democratic process to take care of
13:18problems, but we have the mechanisms to
13:20do that. So job creation, not a job
13:23loss. different jobs, sure, but
13:25everybody's still here and doing things
13:27better. And I have a lot of faith in our
13:30capabilities.
13:31>> I love that. To that to that point,
13:33sorry to interrupt. Um to that point, I
13:35think if you told a farmer 50 years ago,
13:37there'd be a billion knowledge workers
13:39sitting in front of a desk like doing
13:41marketing, coding, like they would they
13:43would not understand,
13:44>> right? And it's the same thing that's
13:46happening now where there's so many jobs
13:47that will be created. We just don't see
13:49them. So what you can do now is like
13:51build these meta skills and stay up to
13:53date and actually really use these tools
13:55in your job. Uh but there will be so
13:57much opportunity coming and uh I think
13:59that's a that's a really great point you
14:01made.
14:01>> K your work your company works with some
14:03of the biggest corporations out there.
14:05Um what are they seeing in AI and what
14:07are you telling your what are you
14:09building for them and what are you
14:10advising them? I think realistically
14:13anything that was previously a piece of
14:16knowledge work like customer service or
14:19support or um basic paperwork is being
14:22replaced. Um it can be done more
14:25efficiently through agentic processes or
14:27workflows. But what that also means is
14:30that many of those individuals that were
14:33involved in those processes can now do
14:36or expand other uh areas of business.
14:40But what that also means is that if
14:43you're entering the workforce right now,
14:45being able to understand what those
14:47areas are that you can expand and add
14:50most impact to are going to be way more
14:52helpful than trying to enter a space
14:55that is being replaced because we are
14:57seeing thousands of jobs get taken away
15:00for customer support, customer success
15:02um and be replaced with agentic
15:04workflows. So much so that um it is
15:07different in software engineering
15:08because uh sort of coding co-pilots or
15:12agents are making engineers even more
15:15productive which means that the
15:17expansion of software itself is
15:19increasing. We just couldn't code as
15:21much as we could now. Um so there are
15:25different things that just allow us to
15:27do more and add more to society.
15:30This is moving. AI is moving so fast.
15:32And I heard another great line that like
15:34if someone tells you they know what's
15:35happening in AI and where it's going,
15:37they're just lying to you because it's
15:39like every week it's something new. Um,
15:41how the three of you as being on like
15:44the cutting edge of AI, how do you
15:46educate yourselves? How do you stay
15:48current and without falling in that
15:50rabbit hole? I mean, I know that's part
15:51of your business, but like I love to
15:52hear how like all of you like what do
15:55you read? Who do you listen to? Um, just
15:57like how are you staying current? M
15:59here. How do you what do you what do you
16:00what's your
16:01>> So as we said today, yesterday anthropic
16:05just released Claude 4.5 Sonnet which is
16:10better than Opus 4.1. So if you haven't
16:12used it yet, you're probably already a
16:14bit behind. If you don't have thoughts
16:16about the model compared to what it was
16:182 days ago, you're pretty a little bit
16:21behind. And so the pace of innovation is
16:23happening so fast that if you're not
16:26consistently staying up to date with
16:28everything being released right now,
16:30you're probably already behind. But what
16:32that also means is that there's probably
16:34never a better time to be reading and to
16:37be engaged in the space than it is
16:39today. Because so many things are
16:42happening that your chance to contribute
16:45and to learn and to be able to create
16:48things is probably the best time today
16:52than ever. Um, also you can subscribe to
16:56newsletters like
16:57>> Yeah. When you car when you wake up in
16:58the morning, what's the first thing you
17:00check to for AI news?
17:03>> My newsletters.
17:04>> I'm sorry.
17:05>> Newsletters on AI. I like that and
17:08Twitter. So it it's and you you can also
17:12sort of like find a number of research
17:14papers but um generally the the sort of
17:19frontier labs that have just either
17:21released something or um have shared a
17:24different like protocol is pretty pretty
17:27important to keep up to date with.
17:28>> Trace, how about you? Where's your
17:30what's your first read in the morning
17:31after Forbes? What what what do you read
17:33next?
17:34>> I'll see you first read. That's not
17:35happening a lot now because as you know
17:37I have a 3-week old.
17:38>> Congratulations.
17:39>> So not not a lot of that going on but I
17:41will I will share on how I make
17:44decisions on what AI is useful. Um I I
17:49get exposure to a lot of people who have
17:53done something with the technology who
17:55are able to share I use this tool and
17:58this workflow this and I accomplish this
18:01now right my life is better because of
18:04this those are the end of the rainbow
18:09outcomes that I pay attention to and
18:12there's a place for for all of this
18:13right without someone hearing about the
18:15new technology uh from a newsletter or
18:18publication without someone going to try
18:20it, without them fitting it into their
18:22workflow. I mean, from from notification
18:25through training to actualization and
18:28impact. Um, but I I really like to
18:30listen to people and how it is they're
18:32using the technology that declutters the
18:35space. It focuses on impact and uh it's
18:39really enjoyable, too.
18:40>> Love it. and take us home because you
18:42have a whole newsroom based on AI news
18:45and you have a very unique way of
18:47staying up to date. Tell everyone how
18:49that works.
18:50>> Yeah. So people Yeah. So if people don't
18:52know I run the rundown uh every single
18:54day we produce a fiveminute newsletter
18:56on everything happening on AI and how
18:57you can implement your work business or
18:58life and because of that we have to be
19:02very up to date with things. Um speed is
19:04really our moat. So, everyone always
19:07asks this question and they think we
19:08have like these detailed RSS feeds or we
19:11have all these crazy things. The truth
19:13is most of the breaking in news that's
19:16happening is all on Twitter or X. Um,
19:18that's where things start. Uh, and then
19:21from there it goes to the newsletters,
19:23it goes to the articles, it goes to
19:25LinkedIn, Instagram, etc. But like there
19:29are research breakthroughs that happen
19:30on Twitter first before kind anything
19:32else. Um, outside of that, another thing
19:34I can recommend is like anytime you see
19:37a headline, drop like create a new Slack
19:39channel with your team. Just drop it in
19:41there and like just gossip. Like just
19:43like talk with your team about like
19:44what's their thoughts on this? Uh, get
19:46like really really raw thoughts on like
19:48is this useful? Can we use this? Um,
19:51what's next? That sort of stuff. And
19:53just like engaging with your team is
19:54really useful. So we do that as well. We
19:56have like a whole Slack channel and we
19:58just like kind of gossip about the news
19:59and it's it's a lot of fun. Uh, and of
20:01course like group chats. Um, engage your
20:04family, friends, and if you can surround
20:07yourself with people who are interested
20:08in AI. Uh, that's that's the best way in
20:11my opinion to just keep up with news and
20:13actually like learn and understand why
20:15it's important.
20:16>> I love it. I love all three. You have
20:18like a human-based research center u
20:21ethic which is really it's helpful. It's
20:23really good. Well, I want to thank
20:24everyone for this great insight. Thank
20:26you all. Really appreciate it and best
20:29of luck.
20:29>> Here we go.
20:31Thanks up top, too.
20:32>> He's not really enjoyable to me.