Full transcript
0:03all right apologies everyone just get
0:06started again
0:07so thank you all for joining us today as
0:10we discuss this very important topic of
0:12how we best keep children in mind and in
0:14you in our service system responses my
0:16name's Anna and I'll be posting the
0:18session
0:25it's like two
0:28like to acknowledge
0:30um that we're meeting on the lands of
0:33Aboriginal people today
0:35I'd like to acknowledge and pay respect
0:37to the past present and emerging
0:39traditional custodians and Elders of
0:41this country on which we work
0:43um for me it's the we're injury people
0:45of the cooler Nation
0:47and others are likely on different
0:50Aboriginal lands across Victoria and
0:53even further afield
0:54I'd also like to acknowledge the
0:56injustices and Trauma suffered as a
0:57result of European settlement the stolen
0:59generations and other policies such as
1:02the forced removal of children from
1:03their families communities culture and
1:06land
1:07we respect the resilience of the
1:09Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander
1:10community in the face of this trauma
1:13and respect their right to an aspiration
1:15for self-determination and empowerment
1:22and so again thank you for joining us
1:24today
1:25um this is the first in a three-part
1:27webinar series that will explore
1:29approaches to engagement and assessment
1:31of children and young people and
1:33encourage service providers to think
1:35about how we best keep children in mind
1:37and in view
1:39the webinar series is part of the child
1:41well-being project at the center for
1:43excellence that has been a partnership
1:44between the center and Family Safety
1:46Victoria
1:48so with I'm thrilled today to be joined
1:51by Dr Wendy bunston and Gail Weber
1:54thank you Wendy and Gail really looking
1:56forward to hearing from you today
1:59um so Dr Wendy bunston is an
2:00international author presenter
2:02researcher and clinician specializing in
2:05working therapeutically with infants and
2:07their families impacted by Family
2:08Violence
2:10Wendy's PhD on the experience of infants
2:13in women refuges
2:14women's refuges won the distinguished
2:17Nancy Millis award in 2016 and was a
2:20finalist in the highly prestigious 2019
2:23Victorian premieres health and medical
2:25research Awards
2:27Wendy also has some books
2:29which I'm sure would be highly valuable
2:32to read helping babies and children to
2:35heal after Family Violence and
2:37supporting vulnerable babies and young
2:39children
2:42um and introducing Gail Gail Weber is
2:44the child and young person practice lead
2:46at the orange door ovens Murray where
2:49she is bringing the infinite child into
2:50the Forefront of our thinking and
2:52practice when addressing Family Violence
2:54abuse and neglect
2:56Gail has worked in the youth sector for
2:58eight years and in the Family Violence
3:01space for the past two years
3:03Gail has a passion for infant mental
3:05health and collaborative practice
3:10so just a couple of
3:12um technical matters there'll be a q a
3:15at the end of the webinar
3:18um so yeah it'd be great to type your
3:21questions into the Q a box as the
3:23webinar progresses and we'll have about
3:2515 minutes or so at the end to work
3:28through those
3:29um if you are having any technical
3:30issues we recommend leaving and
3:33rejoining the webinar the zoom link is
3:35this often resolves the issue and the
3:38session is being recorded
3:41um the recording of the webinar along
3:42with links to further resources will be
3:44in our tour registered attendees after
3:46the session
3:57um
3:59great I'm just going to stop sharing my
4:01screen now so we can get started
4:06um so again thank you so much for
4:07joining me today Wendy and Gail and
4:10to get us started
4:12um
4:13maybe we can
4:14talk about you know what we mean when
4:17when we're talking about engagement with
4:19infants and young children
4:23yeah yeah thanks so much for the
4:28introduction Anna and thanks everyone
4:29for having us
4:31um I would also like to pay respect uh
4:34to the Aboriginal land that we're on
4:36currently and uh acknowledge that
4:38sovereignty has never been stated
4:41um thank you
4:43um I I mean when we're talking about
4:45engaging infants and young children I do
4:48think you know first and foremost we're
4:50thinking about
4:52um creating the safety for parents in
4:55this space as well so we're you know
4:57offering cup of tea offering water
5:00um to help you know make sure the
5:03parents are comfortable as well before
5:04we you know start to engage with the
5:07infant and child
5:08um and it's really like we
5:13really
5:14um get on their level we
5:17um watch and and let you know the child
5:19or the infant take the lead in in those
5:22interactions as well
5:24um yeah that's how I was about that
5:27well I would uh well not what I do you
5:31see infants and young children no
5:34different to any other age group that we
5:36engage with
5:37and we offer infants children the same
5:40courtesies that we offer the adults and
5:43young people we work with which is
5:45through working very hard to make people
5:48feel comfortable when we first meet them
5:50to be able to be a reassuring presence
5:53to be able to
5:56um remember what their name is to be
5:58able to have some capacity to talk to
6:02them about if there's been a referral if
6:04there's been some sort of previous
6:05contact that we are on top of that and
6:08we know what's going on
6:10and that we're talking to the infant as
6:13well that we're being able to involve
6:15the infant in the engagement process we
6:18look at the infant we speak to the
6:20infant we're not
6:22uh inappropriate in terms of how we
6:25physically engage with the info which
6:27can be something that sometimes people
6:29presume that we have the right to go up
6:31and go Oh what a beautiful baby and to
6:33touch the infant and do all those sorts
6:35of things
6:36um our job is not to do anything with
6:39the infant that we would you know
6:41not do with a parent not do with a young
6:43person that if it's a slow
6:46cautious gentle process of being able to
6:48make people feel comfortable in our
6:51space and for them to feel like we're a
6:54comfortable safe person infants are no
6:56different infants are very attuned to
6:59the
7:00the tone of our voice our facial
7:02expressions how we hold our body in the
7:05space all those sorts of things that we
7:07probably are more conscious of when we
7:09are working with adults and young people
7:12and for some reason it's sort of like
7:14when sort of disappear from our mind
7:16that infants the children
7:18are just as attuned just as curious
7:22just as eager to watch us and and
7:24decipher whether we're safe people or
7:26not so I think it's a false divide where
7:31we think the younger they are the more
7:33we maybe get freaked and think oh what
7:36do I do I think we do the same as we do
7:39with anyone else just offer that that
7:41common level of courtesy and respect
7:44and you know I think that also
7:48um I have a dog wanting to get up that's
7:49why I'm twisting around we love adults
7:51yeah yeah
7:53um I'd also just add that you know it's
7:56about those Basics and explaining why
7:59they're here today what confidentiality
8:02means
8:03um what the purpose of our yarn and our
8:06chat is
8:08um and what we want to do together
8:10um because you know it might be that
8:12we've got some worries or there's school
8:15that's got worries or
8:17um your parents have got worries and
8:19we're here to talk about those today
8:21um and keeping it really simple and
8:23grounded and
8:24um safe for
8:26both the parent and the infant and young
8:29child
8:30um because if we can role model that
8:32opportunity for the parent to um have a
8:35conversation about what's going on with
8:39the infant and child you know it helps
8:41build that safety outside of the room as
8:44well which is really important
8:46yeah so maybe just um building what Gail
8:49said it's also that a capacity to invite
8:52the infant they're sorry
8:54invite the parent to think about what
8:57the infant might be experiencing as
8:59they're meeting new people in a new
9:01space and maybe in a space where there's
9:03a heightened level of anxiety because
9:05they're coming in to get access to
9:07services and support and the parent
9:09might be feeling very anxious or very
9:11judged or all sorts of things
9:14um you know something we can do that's
9:16very effective is to be able to be
9:18curious with the parent and ask them
9:20what how do you think your little ones
9:22making sense of where they are at the
9:24moment
9:25if your little one could tell me what
9:28their experience has been the last week
9:32and what it is that's brought you here
9:33what would they tell me
9:35what would they tell me about what it's
9:37been like for their mummy
9:39so there's all sorts of things that you
9:41can do to very powerfully bring the
9:43engine into the space so this is Coco by
9:45the way
9:46hi Coco just so you know
9:49um and cargo may have some things to say
9:51later on I don't know I mean it's
9:55unpredictable I don't know what you'll
9:56have to say but yeah
9:58yeah
10:00um and
10:02even questions to the parents around
10:04what can I do right now to make
10:08um you know Charlie feel safe or what
10:09can we do to have a bit of fun together
10:11what is what is he or she or they like
10:13doing
10:14um and let's do some of that here to
10:16make sure that we're not just here about
10:18the serious stuff like it's okay to have
10:20a bit of fun and have a play and have a
10:22giggle too
10:23um it's not always doing and going like
10:26it's important to get to know them yeah
10:29engage with them as humans
10:31foreign
10:35on that a bit further Gail with what
10:37you've just mentioned
10:40um I mean what sort of strategies or
10:41approaches can practitioners use to
10:43engage with
10:45um you know infants and young children
10:47what is the best way of going about that
10:51you know we we won't be able to sort of
10:53start asking them questions or
10:56um they may not you know have the words
10:59to answer so what would be some ways of
11:02of going about that yeah
11:05um it does really depend on their age
11:08right but
11:09um really it's great to have anything
11:13from age-appropriate toys
11:16um food or toys or sensory toys
11:20um to even having like a doll house if
11:22they're three or four or five
11:24um that's a really playful way to ask
11:28questions around
11:30um who and you might have images of
11:33different adult figures or different
11:36other children and ask some Curious
11:37questions through the play
11:40um or you know invite some drawing and
11:44get them to draw what makes them feel
11:46scared or what makes them feel happy or
11:50um drawing a picture of their family so
11:53using
11:54um what they can relate to and then
11:57afterwards taking the time to reflect
12:00and think about what that might actually
12:02mean or or how do we make sense of what
12:04they've told us you know through their
12:07play or through their drawing
12:09um that's often what I'll do
12:12yeah
12:13um infant observation which is a huge
12:16sort of
12:17blank in infant mental health
12:20practice and in infant mental health
12:23training
12:25invites us to be really curious about
12:28what we see in the infant and we can get
12:31caught up with paperwork we can get
12:33caught up with what it is that
12:36um we've been told is the information we
12:38need to collect
12:40but if you are taking an infant mental
12:43health perspective in your work you are
12:45very curious about what you see
12:48and what you feel in the presence of the
12:50infant so the infant can give a lot of
12:52information about how they're managing
12:54things by
12:55the way that they
12:58seek out and engage with their caregiver
13:01and or siblings
13:03uh it might be that through the course
13:05of the session you notice that the
13:08infant is a bit jumpy so there might be
13:11noises that happen that the little one
13:13startles and you sort of see that in
13:15front of you and you can be curious
13:17about that
13:18with the mum or whoever the caregiver is
13:21you can be curious about oh I just saw
13:24um little Frankie
13:26jump almost out of your arms when that
13:28noise happened
13:30um what do you think
13:31what do you think that meant for Twinkie
13:33and have there been other occasions
13:35where
13:36Frankie gets started really easily
13:40um that can lead into discussions about
13:42what's Frankie's life been like for the
13:44last week or two months or three months
13:47so using what you see in the presence
13:52um of the infant the way the infant uses
13:55their mother to to get Comfort or
13:58doesn't use their mother to get Comfort
14:00the way they engage with their siblings
14:02how the siblings interact with the
14:04little one
14:05there's all manner of things that will
14:07happen in front of you that often we can
14:10be blind to because we're busy in our
14:13head focusing on question answer
14:15question answer and you're not seeing
14:17what's happening in front of you which
14:19is you might have an infant who's White
14:23um is regulated or you might see an
14:25infant who's Associated so there's just
14:28nothing much happening there and infants
14:30are hardwired to engage with the
14:32environment so if you're but a little
14:35baby who's been too compliant and being
14:37too well behaved and too quiet that's
14:40something to be curious about whether
14:42you bring it into the session or not
14:44it's another matter because you have to
14:46make a judgment about is this the time
14:48to do that but as a practitioner you can
14:51be curious about that and wonder why is
14:54this baby so quiet now maybe there's got
14:56siblings around them that are being
14:58incredibly noisy and uh intrusive so
15:01sometimes I've certainly noticed
15:04uh in lots of settings where little ones
15:08toddlers or the older kids can come in
15:10and be really quite invasive of the
15:13infant space could be
15:15very unaware of
15:18um the gentleness you need to have with
15:19babies and
15:21you can do all sorts of things that
15:23really use you're sitting there and
15:25you're thinking oh crap that's whoa what
15:28what hello we've got another dog down
15:30you're needing a pack oh okay sorry I'm
15:32so rude you're allowed to do this we
15:34have some home duties here
15:36um so until they might need a pet there
15:38yes
15:39um so Tilly's the blind one who's
15:41sitting who's down here doesn't want to
15:43come up all those she might come up with
15:44me anyway all right so this is what
15:47we're just showing you what you have to
15:49do in this space is when you've got
15:51another being who's saying please take
15:53notice of me and please acknowledge I'm
15:55here it's our job to acknowledge that
15:57they're here and not to be blinded by
15:59this adult-centric idea we have of the
16:03client is mum and that's it the client
16:05is the infant it's the young child it's
16:08the Adolescent it's the mum it's the
16:10whole package
16:12and the realities of most mums come in
16:15because of their their children
16:18I think generally speaking in my
16:21practice and in my research it's been
16:23that the infant and child is a
16:24motivation for coming in to get help
16:26something they wouldn't have done for
16:28themselves
16:30and I think that it's really important
16:33that we move away from relying so
16:35heavily on parents um to share what's
16:38happening in the home or happening at
16:40school or happening in Kinder
16:42um that we because we don't know the
16:45full picture if we're not able to sit
16:48down and connect with you know the
16:50little one themselves for them to share
16:52their experience or or be able to
16:55um yeah share what's going on from from
16:58their perspective
17:00um because I've also met really
17:03um assertive foil that'll tell me
17:04exactly what is happening and what
17:06they're wanting um and it doesn't always
17:08line up
17:09and which is great that's great that
17:12we're able to hear
17:13um and learn from them what they're
17:15wanting
17:17yeah
17:19I also will just add another
17:22um element that you know back to that
17:24newborn sort of observation
17:26um that we're talking about with an
17:28infant how we can learn at every infant
17:32or newborn is different from the next
17:35and and the way that they might respond
17:38to their name being called or a parent's
17:41voice a carer's voice
17:43um versus us saying their name like all
17:46those minor
17:48um or smaller details build this feature
17:51of connection and build this picture of
17:53who they are whether they can respond
17:57um
17:58if they're respond differently to an
17:59object and moving that you know from
18:02across their eyes
18:04um from left to right versus yeah that
18:06voice
18:08um or the noise response like it it
18:10really tells us so much
18:15thank you Gail that's such a valuable
18:17Point around every
18:19um you know infant and young child being
18:22different from the next and
18:24whilst we can have an understanding of
18:26development developmentally sort of
18:28expected Behavior it's going to
18:31um very a great deal isn't it
18:34yeah yeah and you know that's right what
18:36we're thinking about temperaments
18:37personalities
18:38um behaviors emotions like everyone
18:41every little one experiences that
18:43differently in the household even so
18:46yeah capturing each voice is important
18:52do you have
18:53um sort of examples of that Wendy where
18:56you know thinking about sort of how you
19:00know much difference there can be in in
19:02the presentations of yes
19:05um I guess there's the sort of generic
19:09answer to that which is the you know the
19:10nuances of how infants present is
19:13particular to them
19:15um and you know one of the things that
19:17perhaps we're not so conscious of is the
19:19fact that the emotional repertoire that
19:21an infant is born with stays the same
19:23for the rest of our lives
19:24if you really observe an effort they've
19:28got quite
19:30profound and exquisitely
19:34diverse ways of expressing their
19:37emotional world
19:39but they can't at that stage in their
19:42life do that through through
19:45um
19:46language and through cognition because
19:48those things haven't come online yet but
19:51our emotional range and our sensory
19:53capacities are there from the beginning
19:56what we grow into is our ability to give
19:59words
20:00to give cognition and to give expression
20:02to those vast array of emotional
20:05expressions
20:06so if we allow ourselves as observers of
20:09the infant to be emotionally touched by
20:12what it feels like to be in the presence
20:14of certain infants and available to be
20:17curious about the range of emotional
20:20effect and expression that the infant
20:22shows us then we can bring that very
20:25powerfully into the space
20:27so there's a lady called
20:29um the BB's the surname I'm trying to I
20:33think it's I can't remember the first
20:35name he's done lots of video research in
20:38terms of the the macro and the micro
20:41expressions of infants so when you sort
20:43of slow things down you see these but
20:46extraordinary range of emotional
20:48expression in infants
20:50and adults sometimes just imagine that
20:54that can't be possible so we don't look
20:55for it and we don't allow ourselves to
20:58be emotionally touched by it
21:01so it's really about us changing and US
21:04seeing things that are already in front
21:06of us but have precluded the possibility
21:09that they could be there because they're
21:10babies so what would babies know what
21:12could babies tell us well they can tell
21:14us a enormous amount
21:16so that's just as a general proposition
21:19then specifically thinking about okay
21:21here a cohort of for the ones who we can
21:25expect have some
21:27effects of being exposed to familial
21:31violence either by being directly there
21:34when those things happen because babies
21:36are more likely to be present because
21:38they're more likely to be you know in
21:40close proximity to the caregiver
21:43um some of the things that we see is a
21:46more blunted presentation of those
21:48diverse capacities for emotional effect
21:51so by that I mean
21:53if you have had to defend yourself
21:55against scary traumatic things you're
21:57more likely to be dissociative so you
22:00there's more likely to be a blunt
22:01bluntening in the effect so not as
22:03engaged not as curious maybe the way
22:07they hold themselves in their body can
22:09be overly rigid or can be overly floppy
22:12so we're looking at the
22:15presentation sometimes sitting more
22:17within the the furthest sort of lines of
22:21the the
22:22um what is in the middle sort of
22:24presentation of influence where they can
22:26be very alert they can be very curious
22:28they can do lots of smiling
22:31um they can do lots of cueing into
22:32people these image may not have such a
22:36diverse range of emotional expression
22:38because they've had to defend themselves
22:40against very enormous things that babies
22:42are not equipped to offend themselves
22:44with so they can move into a
22:47dysregulated state fairly quickly or
22:49they can move to a state where they like
22:52the perfect baby because they don't make
22:53any protests babies protest babies tell
22:57you when they're cold they tell you when
22:58they're hungry they tell you when
23:00they're tired babies that don't do that
23:02you would probably start to have
23:05question marks in your mind and thinking
23:07what's not letting this little one tell
23:10us how they're feeling
23:12and that's the sort of range that I
23:14think gets
23:15um
23:16shrunken compressed
23:19um defeated by having to protect
23:21yourself from things that are too big to
23:23protect yourself from so you shut down
23:26or like your hyper Vigilant but hyper
23:29vigilance tends to be a capacity you
23:31show as you get a little bit older as
23:33opposed to one of your baby because a
23:35baby
23:36you're not running hide from things a
23:39baby cannot get to the telephone and say
23:41I need help the baby cannot take
23:42themselves to the next gone over the
23:45baby stopped her in the middle of it and
23:47if nobody comes when they protest when
23:49they cry when they say I'm not coping
23:50this is scaring me
23:52then they have no choice but eventually
23:54to shut down
23:56and the more they have that experience
23:58the more their default Position will be
24:00shut down
24:01and if we don't get in and do this work
24:03early then we're going to have infants
24:06who grow into young children who grow
24:07into young people who grow into adults
24:09whose default position when they are
24:12triggered will be shut down
24:14and I think as a sector we all know
24:15that's not a great
24:17way to respond when you're upset
24:21traumatized anxious whatever but it
24:24becomes the overriding thing that you do
24:26when you feel scared or misunderstood or
24:30judged or whatever else
24:32so we want to change that if we can I
24:34say as I eat a banana chip and hand over
24:37together it's you know important you
24:39keep your nutritions out mine yeah yeah
24:41yeah beginning to fade yeah
24:43have I would touch on two points and I'd
24:47say that a lot of it um the first point
24:50that Wendy was talking about uh tuning
24:52into that the feeling State when we're
24:55in the room with a newborn or an infant
24:58um it really relies heavily on our own
25:01emotional intelligence as practitioners
25:03so we need to be able to
25:06um be able to identify disappointment
25:08Joy
25:10um frustration you know those
25:13elaborative emotions it can be tricky
25:15for adults
25:16um to be able to witness that and and
25:19wonder about that with an infant so it's
25:22always really good to do your own work
25:23in that space as well to be a stronger
25:25practitioner um with little ones
25:29um and I think
25:31um we
25:34um yeah I think that really helps
25:36understand those micro expressions or
25:38walk away feeling
25:40confused or um just stressed even
25:43whatever that is in our stomachs um
25:47you know go look at a wheel chart like a
25:49feelings chart and go what is this
25:51feeling that I like has come from
25:53nowhere
25:54um to help unpack that
25:56um it's really helpful
25:58um because it builds that Curiosity of
26:00the infants experience as well
26:03um but again it like the second point
26:05that I will just touch on is it it comes
26:07down to it might be a bit cliche but
26:10they'll watch wait and wonder principles
26:12of when we're working with them so doing
26:14less is always more
26:16um just being present being curious
26:19um and not necessarily have to do too
26:21much because they'll show us naturally
26:23who they are and what they want and
26:26um yeah
26:29yeah
26:31thank you both and we've we've sort of
26:34moved into the next question
26:37um when do you started to touch on that
26:38and would there be anything you would
26:40add around possible indicators of trauma
26:43and disrupted attachment in this age
26:45cohort that would be important to
26:48to look keep a look out for
26:50I think it's anything in the extremities
26:53um and you one always needs to be
26:55cautious because you can jump we tend to
26:59like to have this security of
27:02if this happens and this happens and
27:03this happens this must mean there
27:06um the work with infants is the work
27:08that I think should be applied across
27:10the lifespan but it is our ability to
27:13sit in a space of not knowing
27:15it's our ability to sit within a space
27:17of curiosity
27:19and
27:21that the infants may be presenting in
27:23ways that are disconcerting I can think
27:25of
27:26um
27:27a young baby who was sitting on the lap
27:30of the mum when we were concerned about
27:32this is in a
27:34and I went with some time ago and we're
27:36concerned more about the older boy but
27:39this little baby was sitting in mum's
27:41lap and just plopping around like I felt
27:44like this baby was going to slide off
27:45mum's lap at any point
27:48and
27:49when you have something like that happen
27:51I think it's it's telling you something
27:54which is that this baby is not being
27:56contained in this space and there were
27:59actually a couple of times when I leaned
28:01forward because I thought this baby was
28:03going to fall off mum's lap this was
28:05while mum was telling me how much she
28:08now she in some ways actually
28:11considered that her
28:14pre-teenage child
28:16was sort of Beyond hope and she was
28:18putting all her energy now into this
28:20baby and I could see a baby that had
28:23very little energy in them
28:25very little being held by their their
28:29mother
28:30um and you know there was obviously a
28:32whole raft of issues going on in the
28:35family and the life of this person and
28:37intergenerationally all sorts of things
28:39but I guess when you're being infant and
28:42child lead in your practice
28:44your bottom line is is this little one
28:47being supported the way that they need
28:50to to be able to grow
28:51and if that isn't happening how do I
28:53bring attention to that and how do I
28:55work with that in a way which is
28:58in viewing hope not just in the parent
29:00but in the baby so for me any sort of
29:03extremity of behavior if they're they're
29:07value to thrive if they're being fed
29:10multiple bottles and being
29:14um not responded to that there's a range
29:16of things that might be happening for
29:17them but when they're crying I will feed
29:20them when they're cold I will feed them
29:22when they bust I will feed them anything
29:25that's at the externally you need to be
29:28curious about and wonder about what's
29:30the purpose of that
29:33um a child that's too well behaved a
29:35child that's never well behaved and I'm
29:38saying child I mean infant because a lot
29:41of projections can happen onto infants
29:43about
29:44now they're meant to be behaving and
29:45what they're meant to be doing
29:47your baby you're not meant to be doing
29:49anything but you know getting figured
29:51getting held being looked at with love
29:54being kept warm
29:56um having your needs met emotionally and
29:58being enjoyed and being in a space
30:01that's that's helping you thrive
30:03when those ingredients aren't there
30:05you've got to wonder what's happening
30:07and what we know from the research is
30:10that little ones exposed to Family
30:12Violence are not going to necessarily
30:15demonstrate developmental delays or that
30:18there are things that aren't happening
30:19for them until they sort of Hit the two
30:21to three age group and by the time they
30:24get to Primary School
30:25there is quite a lot of research that
30:28demonstrates that they're significantly
30:30behind their peers but that does not
30:32necessarily show itself right at the
30:34beginning so we as practitioners need to
30:36be aware and alert to some of those
30:39things
30:40and be more connected within your
30:42answers as I was saying their newborn
30:44observation stuff that's being on a
30:46observe their competencies it's been
30:48able to observe where there's things
30:50that don't seem just to be working right
30:52there they almost sort of
30:55but their streamers are going hey look
30:57at me look at me look at me and no one's
30:58looking at me
31:00and you can see a baby's working
31:02incredibly hard to get noticed and
31:04nobody's noticing them
31:05you take note of that in yourself as a
31:08practitioner and it doesn't mean you
31:10have to do anything in the Here and Now
31:12with it but you just collect some
31:13information that's like saying
31:16there's some things here that don't feel
31:18right and
31:20as a practitioners we're very left brain
31:23we sort of
31:24talk about
31:26um at an intellectual level these sort
31:29of hypothesis and formulas about what
31:31should be whatever when you come away
31:33from a baby and you feel a level of
31:36vulnerability or you live you feel a
31:38level of this just doesn't feel safe
31:41take notice of that
31:43is what's being exchanged in that space
31:46is what the baby feels
31:48is engaging with what you feel and that
31:51that sort of
31:52primitive inter-subjective level
31:54something is being conveyed to you there
31:57is a communication that's being made to
31:58you at a non-verbal level which is how
32:01the baby operates
32:02and we
32:04too often dismiss that ignore that
32:07there's something very important being
32:09convey to us and we should sit with that
32:11and be curious about that and explore
32:13that
32:15yeah yeah to have um memories coming out
32:19of clients where that's yeah you feel
32:21yeah for me as a practitioner my
32:24intuition and the feeling sense is
32:26really
32:27um what I leave my practice by
32:29um a lot of what we see the orange door
32:31is
32:33um changes in Behavior so you know
32:36they're usually really noisy fussy
32:39um really difficult but now they're not
32:42sleeping or
32:44um not eating or
32:46um there's just a destruction or a
32:48change somewhere along the line which
32:50parents said or carers or schools are
32:52really or hinders daycares really good
32:55at um picking up on
32:57um and sharing that information and I
32:59think
33:00um for me when we're thinking about
33:02disrupted attachment
33:04um I'm really looking into the carers
33:06language
33:08um and how they're explaining or talking
33:11to your
33:13um the infant or myself around
33:15what's happening what the infant's like
33:17how they see the infant
33:20um you know maybe it's all the infant's
33:22fault or
33:24um you know they don't
33:26in in the extreme ends it's like I don't
33:28like this infant or I don't like my life
33:30or I don't like
33:32um
33:33you know that they're the problem and
33:35it's their fault and that's sort of
33:37giving me hints something's happening in
33:39the relationship there that I'm curious
33:41about or worried about
33:43um which is important to reflect back
33:45and and talk about without the Judgment
33:48without them and being there in that
33:51shared goal of how can we help you you
33:53know enjoy one another and and take
33:55pleasure or
33:57um all those sorts of things in the
33:59attachment relationship
34:01well
34:03thank you both and we know how vitally
34:06important the attachment relationship is
34:08for infants and young children for their
34:10for their well-being and and like you
34:13mentioned the word thrive thrive or
34:15thriving Wendy and and on that what are
34:17the key aspects of well-being that are
34:19important to focus on in assessment of
34:22um infants and young children
34:25I think the capacity for the parents to
34:32it's to bring alive the mind of the
34:35infant so the parent who can articulate
34:38that
34:40um my baby gets upset when I feel
34:44tension in the house or I notice this
34:46about my behavior I noticed that about
34:48my baby the capacity to put yourself in
34:51the shoe or the booties of your baby
34:54um
34:55speaks to a ability to really
34:59think about what's life like for my
35:01infant
35:02so a parent who's able to do that a
35:05parent who's able to say
35:08um
35:09I've been staying in this relationship
35:11because I love my partner
35:14but I can see that my baby's not coping
35:17with this I can see that my baby is
35:19frightened
35:21um
35:22that speaks to the capacity to
35:27really be motivated for change and I
35:30think those sort of strengths are
35:31enormously valuable to capture and to
35:34give back not in the traditional sense
35:38of okay so this is this is the good
35:40reason to leave a violent part right
35:42but in the sense of
35:44are you wanting something different for
35:46your baby's future and what you've got
35:49at the moment and through perhaps
35:51exploring their own history that maybe
35:54they've come and often is the case
35:55they've come from our history of Family
35:57Violence themselves
35:59and being able to use
36:01future and present orientated questions
36:03and Reflections that suggest that
36:07what did you want from your mum and dad
36:10when you were little when you were
36:12having these things happen what you wish
36:14they'd been able to do for you
36:17um are you able to do that for yourself
36:19and for your baby
36:21so I think that's a really important
36:23leverage point to sort of think about
36:25how do you capture those things because
36:27we work in a as an area that's a bit
36:30like you said before Doom and Gloom it's
36:32like it's really just weighed down with
36:36intergenerational trauma
36:39um abuse neglect all sorts of things uh
36:42it's a very heavy area to work in
36:45but what babies bring to the occasion
36:47what little ones bring to the occasion
36:49is hope they bring
36:51capacity for Rapid Repair and no more
36:55than any other time in infantry can we
36:57have as much Rapid Repair
36:59largely because it's um
37:02the time which there's so much
37:04developmental growth happening in such a
37:06rapid pace
37:08so
37:09um remind me of your question again
37:11because I do go off tangent as you've
37:13probably been away I'm waffling
37:16again and I may need to go and get I
37:19know I've got some water here yeah I
37:20like I like tangents you can always get
37:22useful information when you're going to
37:24town just thinking about yes key aspects
37:27of well-being that are important to
37:28focus on in assessment
37:30within this age co-pod so I guess it's
37:33really good because if you had access to
37:35Maternal Child Health assessment too
37:37because there can be lots of things that
37:39had a physical uh physical level that we
37:42may not be so spot on with in terms of
37:44weight and percentile and all that sort
37:47of stuff which is pretty important
37:48because when a baby gets when the baby's
37:51underweight or a baby is unwell they can
37:54very quickly deteriorate so it's a very
37:57vulnerable age so we need to not just
37:59think for their heads we also need to be
38:01aware as at a physiological level how is
38:04this little one going and
38:06most families have had access to a
38:09Maternal Child health nurse particularly
38:10in Victoria where it's mandatory
38:14um so I'm really
38:15there's a combination of being able to
38:17to look at a baby and have a sense of is
38:21this baby actually underweight or is his
38:23baby overweight is this baby
38:26um when latching on to the breast are
38:29they getting you know nutrition and
38:32feeding out of that what you know things
38:34like
38:35um and we've both probably come across
38:37this
38:37sometimes mums who have very little idea
38:40of what's appropriate for a baby and
38:43then it can be uh and I'm not going to
38:46be
38:47um judgmentally but sometimes could be
38:49giving their baby Diet Coke and
38:52different things within the first year
38:54of their life and all sorts of things
38:56that like really are not going to be
38:58great for that baby's development but I
39:01don't know that that's not a great thing
39:03to do for their development so there's
39:05that
39:06there's the the level of um
39:09accountability around the the
39:11psychological and emotional safety of
39:13the infant and began to tick those boxes
39:15and have a sense of that yes this parent
39:18is appropriate yes this parent reads to
39:21their babies is yes there is a capacity
39:24to comfort and provide safety for this
39:26infant when they're distressed and then
39:28there's the physical stuff and my babies
39:30was coming
39:42is really talking about the relationship
39:44so you're looking at the what's
39:45happening in the relationship and how
39:47the how well they're understanding one
39:48another the physical health and material
39:50Health are key work when we're talking
39:53about infants and little ones
39:56um that they're really important to us
39:59um but I think uh what from my
40:03perspective at the orange door again
40:04you're looking at this psychosocial
40:06factors
40:08um which you do a lot of talking through
40:10your parents of what might be impacting
40:11them on a day-to-day basis as well
40:14um in that broader system
40:17um thinking around what influences their
40:20well-being and then you've got that
40:22smaller level
40:23um the micro level info too which
40:25Wendy's mentioned yeah yeah which is
40:27probably scaring the bejebas out of
40:29everyone it's like we're not trying to
40:31do all that stuff you don't have to be
40:33trying to do all that stuff uh it's good
40:35if you get your head around it but
40:38um there are other people out there that
40:40that carry that that job so you talk to
40:43them
40:45and while we're talking about like if
40:48all this information is overwhelming I
40:50guess like my key message would be the
40:52power is in being curious and not
40:54needing to actually be the expert like
40:56infancy experts parents are the experts
40:58we're here to try and make sense of
41:01what's happening and and you know keep
41:04keep going with the support whether it's
41:07you know family services or if it's
41:09um you know therapy counseling
41:13um and if you don't engage
41:15you can forget all of that because if
41:17you don't make that person feel safe and
41:19heard from the very first session
41:22I get all of it because I won't come
41:23back
41:24and if we are engaging with the infant
41:28we can also sometimes bring something
41:30very
41:32pleasurable and different into the space
41:34because
41:35we're affording that infant the courtesy
41:39of being involved in it in a way that
41:41Mum may never have seen anyone do before
41:44and she may walk away from that contact
41:46a little bit more aware of the
41:49alignments of her baby
41:51so engagement whatever age is that we
41:54leave all the gimmicks at the door leave
41:57our notepad with all our questions at
41:59the door and our very first job is to be
42:03safe
42:04and to be someone that that person feels
42:07hears them and trusts them
42:10and they actually come back
42:15yeah
42:16that's that's that's so vitally
42:18important
42:20and we we've started touching on
42:23um I guess talking to other services
42:25return child health
42:27and and also some some of the questions
42:29you might be asking parents around the
42:32what's going on for their infant or
42:34young young child but
42:37but would you add around questions that
42:39we could be asking of parents and of
42:41other services in the child's World
42:44um when we're gathering information to
42:45understand their well-being
42:47[Music]
42:49um
42:50I you know I guess an example of this
42:53like a case might be helpful to yeah try
42:57and synthesize some of this info but I a
43:00lot of the time
43:01we work with crisis and lots of families
43:05present in crisis and they need housing
43:07or they need
43:08um you know brokerage or they need um
43:11their immediate needs met which is often
43:13very adult-centric
43:15um and they're moving towns they're
43:17moving um because of family violence or
43:19whatever it is but the children are
43:24non-existent in those conversations
43:26they're not
43:27um like we
43:28are so caught up in those immediate
43:31needs of of trying to resolve the crisis
43:34as it is but what about you know the
43:37child's infants routines are distracted
43:39meal times are unpredictable
43:42um they're in a foreign environment
43:43they're
43:44um
43:45their whole being their whole um being
43:48in someone's mind is just not there in
43:51those moments so our role really is to
43:53be curious and bring lines of questions
43:56in when we're speaking with parents
43:58around what's happening and what they're
43:59needing there and then
44:01um you know what um can we get any toys
44:05organized or do you need bedding or
44:08um what do they like playing with
44:10um or how can we
44:12um support you know Zach to Charlie
44:15whoever in in this Farm of Crisis I
44:19think
44:20um really just bringing it back to the
44:22child time and time again really helps
44:25my practice anyway
44:28because you know they're the reason that
44:31we're doing this or two like when we're
44:33supporting families parents in times of
44:37need
44:38what would you say
44:40Wendy
44:41I would say I'm writing down some
44:43questions
44:44um and
44:46for me it's sometimes you know working
44:49on that adult-centric challenging the
44:51adult central idea here is often
44:54um when I lose reflective subdivision
44:57with people and I have a case presented
44:59so usually because on my social
45:01background amongst other things that I
45:04really like a genogram
45:07um I will get a real Clarity around the
45:10age and and name of the mother uh I'll
45:13get a lack of clarity around dad's name
45:16if it's a heterosexual couple
45:18um and sometimes people struggle to know
45:21the names of the children in their ages
45:24so for me it's really encountering that
45:26mentality and
45:28I really like starting at the beginning
45:31point with the infant and the children
45:32and what their experiences are
45:36I think it's really important for
45:38those children that when we speak about
45:40their caregiver whether it's the father
45:42whether it's the same-sex partner's name
45:46whatever it whoever that is
45:48who's the other carer that you actually
45:51know their name and that for the sake of
45:53those children you use their name rather
45:55than talking about the perpetrator
45:57because for those little ones
45:59they have an attachment to that person
46:01which is For Better or For Worse
46:04whether we like it or whether we don't
46:05might be a powerful attachment so to be
46:08conscious of when we speak in front of
46:10children about their other parent but we
46:14speak in a way that's respectful for
46:16those children
46:18um and that we
46:20um
46:22ask the parent if your infant or child
46:26could tell me what they would want from
46:28you coming to see our service
46:30not what you would want but what they
46:32would want
46:34what would they tell us and if you have
46:36a child who's old enough to implement
46:38that to you you ask them the question
46:40you say
46:41if you could have
46:44um something different in your life at
46:46the moment than what's happening at the
46:47moment what were the things that you
46:49would like what would make you feel safe
46:50what would make you feel okay what would
46:52you like support with
46:55um just that basic courtesy of bringing
46:59the infant and child into the space
47:02knowing their name using their name
47:05being curious about what they may be
47:07experiencing inviting
47:10um the parent to bring that little one
47:13alive in their mind is a very powerful
47:16way of working
47:20yeah so you know like even in your case
47:23notes and your admin like using names
47:25even often they're then tacked on at the
47:29end
47:30um or that there's three children in the
47:32home it's like well let's put the
47:33children's names run and said at the
47:35start of this sentence
47:37um and and then the parents names like I
47:41think it's a whole sort of reshifting of
47:44of the work that they're not an add-on
47:46that they're actually reflected in now
47:49systems
47:50um that they're front and center
47:52um because we wouldn't be doing this
47:54work for most of us the percentage of us
47:57doing this work is because they're
47:59infants children and young people
48:01not everyone
48:02but for a lot of a lot of programs it's
48:05because of the children that we had the
48:08funding and the things there in the
48:10first place and why the hell aren't we
48:12actually actively seeing them as one of
48:15our stakeholders
48:17uh that confounds me and if we get in
48:21and do the work early and we do it well
48:22we will be reducing the number of times
48:25that women will come into Refuge will be
48:27reducing the number of issues around
48:31developmental delay around academic
48:34difficulty or so much would be achieved
48:37if we put much more energy into this
48:39space
48:40similar along the lines of
48:43um you know disempowering infants
48:46children you know we can do that so
48:49accidentally our unconscious through our
48:51Brig systems so if we can provide you
48:54know even that one-off opportunity to to
48:56give them a sense of control a sense of
48:58ownership a sense of choice when so much
49:01of their day-to-day is not any of that
49:04because they can be so impacted by their
49:06environment that's really powerful and
49:09again that's you know an opportunity for
49:11repair role modeling
49:13um advocacy
49:15um that these small steps or these small
49:18gestures and have really profound
49:21impacts
49:22yeah
49:24thank you both of you I'm keeping an eye
49:27on the time I know there's so much we
49:29could unpack and talk about um on this
49:32topic and you know I think you touched
49:35on something so important Gail because
49:36you gave an example of where there might
49:38be say three children in the family and
49:40naming each of them separately and and
49:43considering that individual and unique
49:45sort of differences and needs
49:48um is something really really vital to I
49:51think
49:52we might just move into a question so
49:55please if anyone has any questions
49:58and pop them into the Q a box now before
50:01we finish up we've just got under 10
50:04minutes remaining
50:05of this session
50:07um so we've got a question here
50:10um which I'm going to read out and it's
50:12no question is too long and or short
50:16um so the question is thank you so much
50:18Wendy and Gail
50:20I'm a third year Bachelor of Social Work
50:22student and I'm doing my honors next
50:24year from my own lived experience short
50:27and long-term impacts on children are
50:29often overlooked after having been
50:31exposed to Family Violence
50:33as a parent who is managing my own
50:35recovery as a family violent Survivor
50:37the additional challenges of supporting
50:39my children through their own recovery
50:41recovery has never been mentioned to me
50:44by support services and I have had to
50:47navigate and research this myself
50:50whilst I'm still in the early stages of
50:52mapping out my honors proposal I wish to
50:55focus my research on children as victim
50:57survivors of Family Violence in their
50:59own life
51:00hint and long-term impacts of exposure
51:02to Family Violence so the question
51:05essentially is is there any advice you
51:08might have as an emerging critical
51:11social worker from a research and
51:13practice perspective wishing to engage
51:15in this area
51:16I would uh first and foremost and as
51:19someone who's I did my PhD looking at uh
51:22infants who went into Refuge with their
51:24mums following Family Violence
51:27first and foremost involved the voice of
51:30children
51:31what I found when I was doing my
51:33literature review was how many research
51:36projects out there were dependent on
51:39what mothers said about their children
51:41and they did not ask children what they
51:44thought about their own experience so I
51:46think it's privileging the voice of
51:48infants and children in any shape or way
51:51that you can
51:52and I did infant observation as part of
51:55my research so I went into
51:58um eight refugees across Scotland
52:01England and across Australia
52:03and I observed the infants
52:06and tried to do that before I actually
52:08talked to the mums and then talked to
52:11the Refuge staff so
52:15with me it was like
52:17writing out infinite observation was a
52:19way of presenting how these babies were
52:22um
52:23were in that space and there was very
52:26powerful because there were lots of very
52:28emotional very
52:30um
52:31yeah complex presentations
52:34so I think if we carve out space really
52:37to privilege the voice of infants and
52:39children and have that as a beginning
52:40point in research and then everything
52:42else comes from that
52:44that's a very different way of doing
52:46research very different because most
52:48research is either asking the adult what
52:51they think or privileges their their
52:54voice over the children's voice me turn
52:57it around
52:59and I think that um it is a privilege
53:03for us to do this but they're also like
53:06they're entitled to be telling us this
53:09they're they're even more so important
53:11than the parents in many many many cases
53:14so how do we
53:16um how do we make that a large system
53:19change you know like I think it's really
53:21powerful to hear your story
53:23um around that that's you know happening
53:27so it it's just so important that you do
53:30that research really that we
53:32um share it and take
53:35keep going you know be advocates in the
53:37system around reshifting pivoting and
53:40the focus time and time again with the
53:42families that we're working with
53:45thank you very much if anyone has any
53:49final questions before we finish up
53:51please
53:53um type them into the Q a box now
53:55otherwise
53:57I'm not smooth towards closing so
54:01um
54:04that particular person is interested in
54:09um looking at some of the research
54:10models I use
54:12um happy for them to contact me so it's
54:15wendy.bunston bigpond.com
54:18wendy.bunston be unsti and bigfun.com
54:22and happy to send
54:24the sort of stuff that I looked at
54:26um
54:28because that just helps when there's the
54:29researchers
54:31you get big stuff to do yeah you might
54:34get 76 emails now
54:36I might get one from that person who's
54:39wanting to um yeah on it about how did
54:42you research the infant and childhood
54:44yeah
54:45thank you Wendy and if and maybe we
54:47could um there's two more questions I
54:49think and maybe we can add your email
54:53um big girls and yes to the um to the
54:57email when when I send out the recording
54:59if if that works for you and maybe I've
55:02got a couple of Articles too if you want
55:04just to send out to people that are
55:06interested in this Arena that'd be
55:08fantastic
55:09we haven't written our out of together
55:11yet so
55:13we'll do that I'm not sure what it's
55:15going to be about
55:17me a bit dog ownership
55:21yeah employ poodles probably sorry I
55:25keep going yes I think I've got time to
55:27find more question and it's a really the
55:29next question is a really great one
55:31um what can we do if people do not
55:34listen to the voice of the child how do
55:36we advocate
55:38for them for children
55:42or other professionals very quickly I'd
55:45say for other professionals particularly
55:46around care meetings and Child
55:48Protection meetings I think we should
55:51either invite the infant into the space
55:53where they're being talked about because
55:55I think that actually makes
55:56professionals sometimes behave
55:59if not that to bring their photo into
56:01the space and be able to keep going back
56:03to if if Johnny was in the space now
56:06with us hearing us talk about what we
56:09reckon should happen for his life what
56:11do you reckon he'd tell us about what he
56:13reckons should happen for his life so
56:16constantly coming back to bringing the
56:18child and the infant into the space and
56:21holding us accountable as adults and
56:24professionals who sometimes don't behave
56:26very well
56:27bringing us into a way that's
56:30accountable to that infant into that
56:31child and if we were to meet this little
56:33fella in 15 years time will he come and
56:37say to us you did a good job for me or
56:39would he say I don't think you were
56:42thinking about me
56:44and you know I think a lot of the time
56:47that happens because of anxiety
56:50um that it's out of professionals
56:52Comfort zones to shift their thinking
56:55because it's
56:57um not as it's a different way of
56:59thinking and it's just people aren't
57:00used to it so my my recommendation on
57:03feedback would be find yourself a good
57:05supervisor like get someone that um
57:07equally prioritizes children and young
57:10people or infants
57:12um so you continue to to Advocate and
57:15fight that fight because it can be hard
57:17I mean it is
57:19um so I'd say just yeah back yourself
57:21and and have good organizational support
57:25in place
57:26and
57:28thank you Wendy and Gail I think they're
57:30really um
57:32you know meaningful words to end on and
57:35for people to go away and and you know
57:38hopefully look further into this this
57:40topic and and have the motivation to
57:44um deepen deepen their practice in this
57:47area
57:48um as I mentioned this is the sort of
57:51the first of a three-part webinar Series
57:53so I'm just popping into the chat now
57:56the link where you can register for the
57:58center for excellence sector Buzz
58:01um just to keep an eye out for details
58:03of the subsequent two two webinars
58:06um will be the email out through the
58:08through the sector Buzz
58:10um mailing list as well as
58:12as well as other other avenues
58:15um
58:16so I'd just like to yeah thank you again
58:18Wendy and Gail
58:20um this has really been I think such a
58:22valuable session
58:24and given me so much think about
58:27um and hopefully everyone feels the same
58:29um it's it's such a such an important
58:32topic
58:33um you know and Wendy I think you know
58:35thinking about yeah what that child
58:37would come back and say down the track
58:39around
58:41how we how we kept them in mind and in
58:44View and and considered them as a person
58:46is
58:48you know as you said why we're doing the
58:50work that we are
58:53gonna end with acknowledging the
58:55traditional owners of the land too which
58:56I didn't do at the beginning but um I
58:59very much like to acknowledge that in
59:01the part my family probably fade in the
59:05disposition of the first nations of this
59:06country
59:08I don't know what it is but I've been
59:10here fourth generation so I'm sure
59:11there'd be something
59:14goodbye from Coco who's just gone out
59:17get some thank yous from audience
59:19um members in the in the chat too so
59:22thank you again went to Gail and thanks
59:24to everyone who attended today
59:28thanks okay
59:30bye