Paul Heyman On Brock Lesnar, Roman Reigns, ECW, Failed "Paul Heyman Guys", Triple H

0:00Ladies and gentlemen, my name is Paul

0:02Heymon. [cheering]

0:04What does it take to achieve greatness?

0:06Whatever it takes, [music] I'm willing

0:08to do. Look at the greatness displayed

0:11by Joe Anawi as the tribal chief. What

0:14was the brainchild behind the tribal

0:17chief?

0:19>> There's a certain way you look at Roman

0:20Reigns. What's the emotion you're trying

0:22to portray? [music]

0:23>> Uninhibited, uncontroverted, absolute

0:26devotion. How did it become a thing? The

0:28way you say

0:29>> [screaming]

0:33>> That's all branding. It's supposed to be

0:36violent and something that instills fear

0:38just in hearing the name.

0:40>> What does Brock Lesnar's career look

0:41like without Paul Heymon? [music]

0:42>> I wonder what Paul Heymon's career would

0:44look like without Brock Lesnar. He's the

0:46greatest athlete on the face of the

0:47planet.

0:48>> Brock Lesnar ending Undertaker streak.

0:49[music] Your expression was perfect.

0:51>> It's a bigger victory than any

0:53championship Brock could have won.

0:55>> That's an Emmy-winning performance. The

0:57Emmy awards are years behind on. I'm

0:59presenting something in character. Why

1:01is that not eligible for an Emmy?

1:02>> What is the biggest difference [music]

1:03between working for Vince McMahon and

1:05working with Paul Le?

1:06>> It's a completely different job. Anyone

1:08that doesn't see that, doesn't

1:10understand what it takes to lead the

1:12creative process. Today, Paul LC is the

1:16best person for that job. What's the

1:18story behind you leaving WWE in 2006?

1:21>> We had very different visions for the

1:22rebirth of ECW. For years, there have

1:25been rumors that Vince McMahon was

1:27funding ECW.

1:28>> A lot of stories coming out of ECW take

1:30on a life of their own. Here's the truth

1:32of it,

1:32>> Mr. Haymon.

1:33>> Sir.

1:34>> Wow.

1:34>> Wow.

1:35>> We're making it happen.

1:36>> Well, wow. Okay.

1:37>> Yeah.

1:37>> Hope it's worth the wait for you.

1:39>> Thank you so much for making this

1:40happen.

1:40>> Yes, sir.

1:41>> You are an absolute master at the little

1:45things. I believe that's a big reason

1:47how you turn good into [clears throat]

1:48great. Where does that come from for

1:51you, mastering those little things?

1:57I mean, well, thank you for your kind

1:58words on that, but it's it's just uh

2:03it's the desire to do something

2:05substantive.

2:06It's the desire to do something better

2:08than other people do it. It's the desire

2:10to achieve greatness. It's it's the

2:13adrenaline rush. It's it's it's it's the

2:16dopamine effect when you

2:19achieve something that seems to be

2:24unachievable.

2:26Uh and and and whether that's a nuance

2:29in a performance, getting that out of

2:31someone else, collaborating with someone

2:34on their efforts to achieve that

2:36greatness. Um,

2:38it's just it's the pursuit of something

2:42that you can be proud of that you can

2:44look back on

2:46if you choose to look back on things and

2:48and say, "Yeah, that I I really enjoyed

2:52doing that." Uh, that that gave me a

2:55high that that's not available through

2:58any kind of drug, any kind of sex,

3:00anything else in life with the exception

3:02of quality time with your children.

3:06outside of that. Um, it's it's it's

3:09chasing that high. It's what what makes

3:12Mick Jagger and Keith Richards go on

3:15stage at their age when they certainly

3:17don't need the money and tear the

3:21stadium down, not only doing classic

3:24Rolling Stones music, but new music that

3:28they still to this day choose to write.

3:31What drives that? What makes them want

3:34that? Why is Clint Eastwood directing

3:36movies in his 90s and their Academy

3:40Award level movies? Because there is a

3:43need, there's a yearning, there's a

3:44craving, there is an insatiable lust to

3:48go after something that you're

3:51passionate about and want to overd

3:54deliver even past your own expectations.

3:56>> I love the passion. I love it so much.

3:59Where do you think the Paul Heymon

4:01character ends and the Paul Heymon the

4:04man begins?

4:09Depends on the day. Depends on

4:13what's needed inside of the performance.

4:16I

4:18the persona of Paul Heyaymon is carried

4:21a lot by the real life experiences of

4:24the person Paul Heymon. So if I'm asked

4:28I'm I'm not a good actor. I'm not a

4:30trained actor. I I I never went to to

4:32acting classes. I I was never trained to

4:34be an actor. I'm not a good actor. I I

4:37would disagree with that. You are a

4:39fantastic actor.

4:41>> Well, thank you. I I'm I'm I'm a method

4:43actor. I I I I find things that trigger

4:47the emotion that has to be presented

4:50within the scene that we're presenting.

4:52Um, so

4:58I have to rely on things that I can

5:00relate to. So therefore, you're getting

5:02a lot of me within the character, but

5:05it's it's clearly a persona that I'm

5:08putting forth. And it's it's a skin that

5:12I've learned to be very comfortable

5:13walking in. Ric Flair famously or

5:16infamously, either one, has said many

5:19times, "The day I'm nervous walking

5:21through the curtain is the day I don't

5:23walk through the curtain."

5:24>> And [snorts and clears throat] it's

5:25funny because to me, the day I'm nervous

5:27walking through the curtain is the day I

5:29don't go. Uh because

5:33I'm not nervous going out there. I'm a

5:35lot more comfortable in the middle of

5:36the ring with a live microphone in my

5:38hand in front of 20,000, 30,000, 70,000,

5:425,000 people than I am just sitting here

5:44talking with you right now.

5:46>> So, if I were to find you backstage

5:48before going out and cutting a promo,

5:50what would that look like? What would

5:51you be doing?

5:52>> Working with other people on their

5:54stuff.

5:54>> Not working on your stuff.

5:56>> No, I know what I'm going to do. I I I

6:00if as long as I know the assignment and

6:01I know what I have to sell,

6:02>> Yeah. Uh, I'll I'll know the end line.

6:07Uh, I I I I know the be because the

6:09beginning is the easiest thing in the

6:10world. But besides saying my, you know,

6:11ladies and gentlemen, my name is Paul

6:13Haymon. Okay, the next sentence tells

6:16you the theme.

6:18>> I'm here tonight to hype you on this

6:21this person, this event, this show, this

6:24concept, this rivalry.

6:28No matter what it is, I I I I'm telling

6:30you right there what I'm going to do.

6:33I'm then off to the races building to

6:35the end. From that moment on, the clock

6:37is ticking to build to the finish and

6:40and and and and once you get there, uh

6:43you're home. So, I know what I'm

6:45building towards. And I know that at

6:47some point within this promo, uh there's

6:50going to be a pivot. You know, I I think

6:54you are the greatest opponent for Brock

6:55Lesnar. I I admire the way that that

6:57that you approach the concept of the

6:59match with Brock Lesnar. I think you are

7:01the one person that that adds the yeah

7:03butt to the career of Brock Lesnar.

7:06Everything about you is the antithesis

7:08of things that Brock Lesnar knows how to

7:09counter. You, sir, are the worst

7:12opponent for Brock Lesnar. I fear what

7:15you can do in the ring against my beast.

7:18Boom. Boom. Boom. Unfortunately, my

7:20client Brock Lesnar does not share this

7:23opinion on you. He's going to smash you.

7:26He's going to conquer you. He's going to

7:27victimize you. F5 suplex city because

7:30he's Brock Lesnar. I know what I'm going

7:32to do. I know the theme. I I I I I know

7:35the pivot. I I I know the chorus and and

7:37and and and I know how to take it home.

7:40I'm more concerned with everybody else

7:42because when I'm out there, I don't want

7:44a script. I just want the assignment cuz

7:47I like to play with the audience. I'm

7:49very interactive with the audience.

7:52That's the high. That's the thrill. It's

7:54It's Freddy Mercury and Live Aid.

7:57>> Yeah. you know, you know, oh, oh, oh,

8:00oh.

8:02And and you get that feedback and I'm

8:04listening at all times.

8:05>> How did it become a thing the way you

8:08say Brock Lesnar's name? Cuz there's a

8:10lot of fans out there, they can't just

8:12say Brock Lesnar. They say Brock Lesnar.

8:16Well, that's all branding. I mean, that

8:19that's all a matter of

8:22what is the emotion that you want to

8:23convey. It's not what you say, it's how

8:25you say it.

8:27I tell that to everybody. You know that

8:29the first thing if someone comes up to

8:30me with a script and they say, "Oh,

8:32these are the words." The very first

8:33thing I do is I say, "Oh, you ready?

8:36>> Tell tell me what you need to do. Tell

8:38me your assignment.

8:40>> Tell Did I Did I just Did you [laughter]

8:42screw up your notes there?"

8:43>> Okay.

8:43>> Um

8:44>> I We're We're just going to hang out

8:46anyway.

8:47Um, when when Joey Styles first came to

8:51ECW,

8:53[snorts] the uh

8:55Joey Styles would say, "We are here live

8:58at the ECW arena, stop, cut, break."

9:02If you go to Rome and you go to the

9:04Cyine Chapel and you look at

9:06Michelangelo's work on the ceiling, do

9:10you sit there and say, "I'm here at the

9:11Systeine Chapel. Michelangelo paid to

9:13death." No, I'm here at the Cyine

9:16Chapel.

9:18Look at this ceiling was painted by

9:19Michelangelo on his back for 5, 10, 15

9:22years. Whatever the story is,

9:26say the ECW Arena like like you're

9:28saying Madison Square Garden, like

9:31you're saying Yankee Stadium. Say it

9:34with such honor and prestige that it

9:37carries weight. So Joey Styles would

9:40say, "We are here live at the ECW

9:43Arena and it's looking up because it's

9:47majestic. It's oper it's oporadic.

9:51So it's never looking down the ECW

9:53arena. It's the ECW arena. So everything

9:57that you want is is is about the manner

10:00in which you present it. It I I used to

10:03call it um the dog and the cookie. Okay.

10:08You have a dog?

10:09>> I do.

10:09>> Okay.

10:10>> Her name's Luna.

10:11>> So, if you go home tonight,

10:13>> Yeah.

10:13>> and you say to that dog, "Do you want a

10:16cookie? Do you want a cookie?"

10:19Okay, that's great. But you know what?

10:21Do you want a lump of [laughter]

10:22Would you like a lump of

10:25And it's the same way. IF YOU SAY, "DO

10:27YOU WANT A COOKIE?"

10:29Dog's going to run away from the cookie.

10:31>> Yeah. So, it's not it's not the fact

10:33that you go cookie, you know, it's how

10:35you say the word cookie. Same thing with

10:38Brock Lesnar. It's it's it's not um as I

10:42once teased on on on a viral video with

10:44with Bruce Buffer. It's not Oh, it's

10:46Brock Lesnar. It's not it's it's it's

10:50not supposed to invoke happiness. It's

10:52not supposed to invoke hope. It's not

10:55supposed to invoke a hero's uh um

11:00identification wi with within your

11:02spirit. It's supposed to be violent and

11:04guttural and and and something that that

11:07that that instills fear just in hearing

11:10the name. It's not Brock Lesnar, it's

11:13Brock

11:14Lesnar. It's it's it's it's it's that

11:18it's that level of of of intensity that

11:22is brought with the name that that makes

11:25you understand who that person is

11:28without ever having to see him or what

11:31he can do. When you're managing someone

11:33on screen, it doesn't end when Raw ends

11:35or Smackdown ends. When you're a Paul

11:37Heymon guy, this is all throughout the

11:39week. This is all the time. What does

11:42that look like?

11:44Well, again, it it depends on the person

11:46that we're talking about. Um, the way I

11:48work with Brock Lesnar is a lot

11:50different than the way I would work with

11:51Roman Reigns. The way I would work with

11:53Roman Reigns is a lot different than the

11:55way I would work with CM Punk. And the

11:57way I would work with CM Punk is a lot

11:59different than the way I would work with

12:00Braun Breaker. It really depends on the

12:02need of the artist.

12:05Um, what does it take for Brock Lesnar

12:07to achieve the greatness that I know

12:10Brock Lesnar can achieve? What does it

12:12take for Roman Reigns to achieve the

12:15greatness in the form of the tribal

12:19chief that I know that he can achieve?

12:22And whatever it takes to get them there,

12:25I'm willing to do because I want to be

12:28in on that greatness. I want to be

12:30challenged to rise to that occasion. I

12:34uh

12:36if all they have to worry about is the

12:38actual performance

12:40and everything else is taken care of.

12:43What's your nutrition for the day? Tell

12:45me your nutrition for the day. So that

12:46when you arrive at the arena, that food

12:48is waiting for you. It's prepared. It

12:50will be delivered to you at the times

12:52that you you eat at 1:00, 3:00, 5:00,

12:557:00. You eat at 1:00 and 7:00. Um, is

12:59is there a particular type of vehicle

13:01that you are more comfortable being

13:03driven in than another type of vehicle

13:06that takes you to the arena so that when

13:07you're in that vehicle, you can think

13:09about your performance? If we just

13:12designate the fact that the performance

13:14is everything, it's the end all beall.

13:16It's what we spend our lives crafting

13:19and desiring and wanting and needing and

13:23and and the need to achieve something

13:26within that performance at a higher

13:28level than everyone else on the roster

13:30if not in the entire industry. If we

13:33just agree, if we just come to the to to

13:36the understanding that we both want it

13:39that bad, past the point of obsession,

13:42past the point of it even being a

13:44healthy obsession, that we're willing it

13:46to be an unhealthy obsession in that

13:49pursuit, and we both agree to it, let's

13:51go for that. That that's that's where I

13:54go. And I fall short of my own

13:56expectations many time, but I won't let

13:58you fall short of yours. Is that pulling

14:01something out of that person that maybe

14:03they didn't even know they had in there?

14:05>> Of course it is. Of course it is. It's

14:07it's uh

14:11look at the greatness displayed by Joe

14:14and Aai when he was the big dog. Look

14:17how he broke away from the pack in the

14:19shield. Look at the performance that he

14:21put on in his first Wrestlemania main

14:23event at Wrestlemania 31 against Brock

14:27Lesnar. Look at all that he accomplished

14:30as the big dog and compare that to the

14:34greatness that he displayed over and

14:37above anything the big dog could have

14:40brought forth as the tribal chief. It's

14:44interesting because there's that moment

14:46in 2020 and wrestling's in a weird spot

14:48with co when that camera pans out and

14:52Roman Reigns is sitting on the couch

14:54next to you. Everything changed. As I

14:57understand, Vince didn't like this couch

14:59you were sitting on. What's this? What's

15:00the story behind that?

15:01>> Vince thought the couch was not

15:06opulent enough for a character that was

15:09then going to be end up being called the

15:11tribal chief. And I can't disagree with

15:13him, but we we were in a rush to get

15:15that done. And the the well the original

15:18idea was for us both to return at

15:20SummerSlam

15:22and then be on TV that Friday and lead

15:24into

15:26was it Backlash or Payback? Whatever

15:29that whatever the pay-per-view was that

15:31that weekend that we built to in the

15:33rematch where the title went to the

15:36tribal chief Roman. And

15:40I thought let Roman return. Give give

15:44that moment to the big dog. And then

15:48that Friday on television, he's not

15:50cooperative in the triple threat. He's

15:52not cooperative with Adam Pierce. You

15:54know something's up, but you can't put

15:56your finger on it. And go to him sitting

15:59on the couch and Pierce is looking over

16:01going, "What the is Haymon doing

16:03there?" But you don't know that Heymon's

16:04sitting there and at the last second

16:06pull out because Roman says, "That's not

16:10a prediction. That's a spoiler." And you

16:12see Brock Lesnar's advocate sitting with

16:16Roman Reigns after all these years and I

16:18just hit Roman's tagline of believe that

16:22and off the air. So for 5 seconds

16:25>> you see us together and you

16:29did did what did I just see that you

16:31know you're rubbing your eyes and and

16:34and you can't believe what you saw. Um,

16:38and then that weekend get the title on

16:41Roman. And then the next Friday is our

16:44first appearance truly together in front

16:47of the cameras as a unit presenting our

16:51case as to why this act is a

16:53gamechanging act and and and will create

16:56history in WWE.

16:58>> That absolutely changed Roman Reigns

17:00career. Like becoming the tribal chief

17:02absolutely changed things for him. What

17:05was the brainchild behind the tribal

17:08chief?

17:09>> Apocalypse Now,

17:12uh, Marlon Brandle's portrayal of Curts.

17:16If you watch Apocalypse Now, it it's

17:18it's it's Francis Ford's Francis Ford

17:21Copela's great epic

17:22>> masterpiece. And it's about a warrior

17:27Curts

17:29or a wrestler Roman Reigns who is a

17:34warrior of of such magnificence that he

17:39takes over an entire island. Well, it's

17:42not the island of Samoa, but it can be

17:45the island of relevancy

17:47in that he takes over the entire island.

17:50Everyone on that island, let's say

17:52that's members of the bloodline and the

17:54wise man and at some point Sami Zayn,

17:57but all the constituents on the island

18:00look to this general. Well, let's not

18:04call him a general. Let's call him a

18:05tribal chief for food, shelter,

18:09security,

18:11uh sustainability,

18:13and and uh and and and life.

18:17And they all rely on the general, the

18:21tribal chief for that. And they all

18:24worship. But let's not use the word

18:25worship. Let's use the word acknowledge.

18:29So they all acknowledge their tribal

18:31chief for the many things that he brings

18:35them. Life, security, food, shelter. And

18:38at some point, it's not just the

18:41responsibility

18:43and the obligation and the

18:45accountability.

18:46It's the burden.

18:49It's the burden that every constituent

18:51on that island relies on the general,

18:55relies on the tribal chief for food,

18:58shelter, security, safety.

19:02And that burden weighs heavy.

19:05And the leader Curts Reigns tribal chief

19:10becomes resentful of the very

19:13constituents that worship slash

19:15acknowledge him to where when Martin

19:17Sheen kills Brando in Apocalypse Now he

19:20opens the diary it says drop the bomb

19:22kill.

19:24So the burden of being tribal chief

19:28weighs down on Roman Reigns to where he

19:31starts abusing Jay Uso. He starts

19:34abusing Jimmy Uso. He takes his

19:38frustrations out on Sami Zayn. And he

19:41makes life uncomfortable for all those

19:44around him who choose to acknowledge

19:47him. It's it it's the microphone pass.

19:50>> When when we first decided that we're

19:53going to do a microphone pass because

19:55the tribal chief would never have an

19:57underling just, you know, just just a

19:59peasant just just a common person

20:01deliver the microphone. has to be his

20:03own personal wise man. You want to

20:05deliver something to the tribal chief,

20:06you give it to me, I give it to him.

20:09>> Yeah.

20:10>> So the the the in the first incarnation

20:12of this concept, okay, I I'll pass you

20:15the microphone. And and and Roman would

20:17hold out because I I was always on the

20:18left of of the tribal chief.

20:20>> And that was by design, too.

20:22>> Everything we did was by design.

20:24Everything was thought overthought.

20:28The alternatives were thought about. Is

20:31this the absolute epitome? Is is this

20:33the apex of of of of where we can take

20:36this? And what message does it send or

20:38messages does it send out? Uh

20:42so I have to go like this. But if his

20:46hand is here, that's an easy pass. Well,

20:49make it the right hand. Make me reach

20:51across so that at any time if I brush

20:56against the tribal chief, it's off with

20:58my head. You can't touch the tribal

21:01chief. You can't screw up that way. You

21:03You don't brush up against the tribal.

21:05HE BRUSHED UP AGAINST THE TRIBAL CHIEF.

21:07OFF WITH HIS HEAD. THAT'S IT. THAT'S IT.

21:09You lose your head on the island, you

21:10become irrelevant. You're back into the

21:12ocean of obscurity.

21:14So every time I reached across,

21:18it was with trepidation. And then he

21:20would grab the microphone and I pull MY

21:23OH, I PULLED MY HAND BACK UP. WHAT A

21:25PASS. It became the highlight of my day.

21:27>> Yeah. because I survived the very moment

21:31where my execution could take place if I

21:34screwed up just that much. Because that

21:37also demonstrated how fearsome of a

21:41tribal chief he was. That as much as we

21:44all say, "I love you, my tribal chief. I

21:47acknowledge you, my tribal chief," we're

21:50definitely afraid of the tribal chief.

21:51>> Hey, if you were watching Backlash, you

21:53may have seen a face [music] that you

21:55recognized. Not only was I sitting

21:58behind Michael Cole and Wade Barrett

22:00there, but I also got this impromptu

22:02interview with The Miz and Kit Wilson.

22:05Shout out to SeatGeek for the great

22:07tickets, and shout out to SeatGeek for

22:09sponsoring today's video. With over 35

22:12million downloads, SeatGeek is the

22:14number one rated ticketing app. There

22:16are more than 70,000 events listed on

22:18SeatGeek, including WWE concerts,

22:21sports, festivals, and more. So, here's

22:23Smackdown in July here. Tickets start at

22:26$69. And the cool thing about SeatGeek

22:29is they've got your back. Every ticket

22:31is rated on a scale of 1 to 10, so you

22:33know if you're getting a good deal or

22:34not. Look for the green dots. Green

22:36means good, red means bad. Plus, every

22:38ticket is backed by their buyer

22:40guarantee. And of course, as always,

22:42I've got a code for you. Use the code

22:44CVV to get 10% off your next set of

22:46tickets from SeatGeek. [music] That's

22:4810% off any tickets when you use the

22:50code CVV. Just click the link down below

22:53to download the app and that code will

22:55automatically be applied to your

22:56account. [music] And a big shout out to

22:58SeatGeek for sponsoring this episode.

23:01There's a certain way you look at Roman

23:02Reigns. What's the thinking behind that?

23:04And what what do you think's the emotion

23:06that you're trying to portray?

23:14Uninhibited, uncontroverted.

23:24absolute devotion

23:27on on under any and all circumstances.

23:30Uh if if the room is on fire and he says

23:33we're going to run through the flames to

23:34get to the other side. Yes, my tribal

23:36chief, I will go with you, my tribal

23:38chief, where I believe in you to such an

23:40extent that if you say we're going to

23:41run through the fire and go to the other

23:43side, I I have absolutely no reason to

23:46doubt the fact that we're going through

23:48on to the other side, my tribal, and I

23:50will light myself on fire for you, my

23:52tribal chief, to protect you from the

23:54flames, for you are my tribal chief. And

23:57and and I acknowledge you. My my world

24:00is built around that acknowledgement.

24:04Uh it it's it's just devout worship.

24:06It's it's it's blind devotion. It it's

24:09it's it's also the way to be blunt. I

24:13used to see some people in a room when

24:16Vince would talk

24:19and it was it was just amazing to me

24:21that um

24:25if you're in the room and you're not

24:27there to give a contrarian opinion, I

24:29don't know what you're in the room for

24:31cuz then you just inevitably inevitably

24:34become a yes man. So there were too many

24:37people too many times that anything that

24:41Vince would say

24:43yes

24:46and and and was never offering an

24:47opinion of hey that sounds great and

24:49what if we did it this way too where's

24:52your own input into it? Um and and

24:56[clears throat] and in in watching that

24:58and then seeing other people you know

25:00just in in in Hollywood do it too. just

25:03oh that WAS SO OH ACADEMY AWARD ACADEMY

25:06AWARD YES YES YES OH THAT WAS WONDERFUL

25:08AND IT'S LIKE REALLY that that

25:11>> sounds like fear

25:13>> yes and in many ways it is fear but but

25:15but it's also devotion it's also just an

25:18it's also it's just an absolute worship

25:21uh an an absolute giving of oneself to

25:25the tribal chief because you must

25:28because to be in the tribal chief's

25:30orbit to have the tribal chief's

25:33attention and to receive any

25:36acknowledgement. If if you go back and

25:38you watch

25:40the time on the couch, he looked to me

25:43because he had to bring the camera to

25:45me. That that was that was necessary.

25:48Once he the tribal chief won the title,

25:52I told him, "Don't look at me on the

25:56entrances. Hold out your hand for the

25:59championship

26:01and take the championship,

26:03but don't even when you call for the

26:06mic. I almost did it with this hand.

26:07Even when you call for the mic, don't

26:09look at me like good pass. Nothing.

26:12Don't acknowledge me. Wait till I earn

26:14it. Give me a few months of service to

26:18the tribal chief. Service to the cause

26:20of the tribal chief. Service to the

26:22island of relevancy. Service to the

26:24bloodline. and then I will have earned

26:28my stripes enough for the tribal chief

26:30to say, "Thank you, wise man." That's

26:33it. A lot of times he just he'd look

26:35this way and I'm over here and say,

26:38"Wise man." And I'd come over his

26:40shoulder. Yes, my tribal chief. And he

26:42wouldn't look at me because for the

26:45tribal chief to look at you,

26:47you have to earn that. It it's just it's

26:50a matter of placing him above God.

26:55and and and and and and and if you can

26:57create that deity above the deity, then

27:01you have firmly established that's the

27:04sun around which everything else orbits.

27:07That's the energy in the room. That's

27:10the oxygen that we all crave. And and if

27:12you and if you position him in that way,

27:15then it just makes him so much more of a

27:18bigger star.

27:20>> It's so easy now to look back and go, of

27:22course, this character would work. We

27:23have the benefit of hindsight. It's been

27:25six years. Of course, it works. But was

27:27there anyone at that time that didn't

27:29think it would work?

27:33>> Well, you know, it's it's it's just it's

27:35it's the little things that go into it.

27:38Uh the first time I came up with tribal

27:40chief.

27:42>> Really? You you want to call him the

27:44tribal chief? It's, you know, and

27:46>> what did Vince want to call him?

27:49>> Oh, the big dog Roman Reigns.

27:51>> Still be the big dog. and at with his

27:53advocate Paul Heymon. I said, "Why can't

27:54be his advocate?" I was Brock Lesnar's

27:56advocate. We have to I have to be

27:57something different to Roman Reigns. And

27:59Roman Reigns has to be different. You're

28:00going to pull the trigger on this. This

28:02has to be as much of a seismic shift as

28:07the dead man becoming the American

28:09badass. This is a whole [snorts] new

28:10character. This is a whole new persona.

28:13And he could not have played this

28:15persona earlier because he was too young

28:16to do it. you he needed to weather the

28:19storms to become the tribal chief. It's

28:23it's it's it's we grew up with him

28:26almost almost like he was a child star

28:28in that we saw him from his young days

28:30fresh out of college and and he grew

28:33into this tribal chief.

28:35>> Brock Lesnar is obviously tremendously

28:39talented and incredible athlete, but I'm

28:42curious, what does Brock Lesar's career

28:44look like without Paul Heymon? He would

28:47Brock Lesnar would still be massively

28:49successful.

28:51I I wonder what Paul Heymon's career

28:52would look like without Brock Lesnar.

28:55>> Uh my legacy in my early days was the

28:59Dangerous Alliance in WCW. That legacy

29:03changed with the work I put in with ECW.

29:06I came out of ECW and I'm in WWE.

29:10And what would my legacy have been in

29:12WWE? Well, that certainly changed when I

29:15got put with Brock Lesnar and and then

29:20to the point where just me sitting on a

29:22couch with Roman Reigns because I'm

29:24Brock Lesnar's advocate was

29:28an incredible shift in the dynamic in

29:31WWE because you couldn't imagine Brock

29:34Lesnar's advocate with another top star

29:37like Roman Reigns.

29:40What would Brock Lesnar's career have

29:42been?

29:44Massively successful, just not the same

29:47as it was. We we we are a very unique

29:49pairing and we we work well together

29:53behind the scenes and that transpires on

29:57camera. There's a camaraderie. There's a

29:59trust between us. There's a pursuit of

30:02greatness amongst us uh that permeates

30:06the screen and and and there's a

30:09closeness to us that you can sense as we

30:12bounce off of each other and and it

30:15works and and and and and and we're in

30:19in sync with each other when he's

30:23performing in the ring. Uh would he have

30:26been fine without Paul Aean? AB:

30:28Absolutely. Brock Lesnar is the

30:30modern-day Jim Thorp. He's the greatest

30:32athlete on the face of the planet.

30:34There's no one like Brock Lesnar. And he

30:37is the most underappreciated, underrated

30:40inring worker I have ever seen in my

30:42life. Where did the idea of him debuting

30:45with you even come from?

30:54>> I don't know how I don't know how much

30:56of this will have to be edited. I was

30:58actually scheduled to come back at that

31:01Wrestlemania Wrestlemania 18

31:04>> because you had called Wrestlemania 17.

31:06>> Yes.

31:06>> Yeah.

31:07>> And then was the color commentator for

31:11Jim Ross through Survivor Series. Then

31:14WWE defeated the Alliance and and I was

31:17off camera. I was coming back on camera

31:20Wrestlemania 18 to manage I hate that

31:24word

31:26Chris Benois

31:29and that was where we were headed and

31:32>> so this is like 01 like later oh so

31:35early O2 okay

31:38>> Brock was very impatient in OBVW

31:42and moved back to Minneapolis and told

31:45WWE put me on the main roster are

31:50So WWE is bringing Brock Lesnar in for

31:53dark matches.

31:56Brock standing in the middle of the ring

31:59during the afternoon and all these

32:01old-timers

32:03are there. Jack Lanza, Tony Gera, the

32:07previous regime of producers

32:09and it's the same thing. Just stand in

32:12the middle of the ring, kid. You'll be

32:13fine. Let everybody bounce off of you.

32:16Don't move too much. He should be a

32:18Russian. He's an NCAA Division 1

32:20heavyweight champion. Look at his

32:22combine numbers. Look at what he can do.

32:25Look at his leaping ability. Look at the

32:28way that he moves. Have you ever seen

32:30anyone move like that? Let alone SOMEONE

32:32OF THAT SIZE MOVE LIKE THAT. And listen

32:35to his name. It's you couldn't think of

32:37a better name for a fighter, Brock

32:41Lesnar. And you want him to be a

32:43Russian.

32:44and Taz brought him over to me cuz Taz

32:47was such a huge fan of Brock's

32:51uh amateur career and Taz said, "Hey

32:55brother, they're going to screw this up.

32:56You you got to get involved in this over

32:58here." Cuz Taz had experienced that with

33:01me in ECW when he was the Taz maniac and

33:05we turned him into the MMA fighter Taz.

33:08Taz was the first person in in in pro

33:11wrestling

33:13that started having people tap out.

33:16So I went to Vince and I said, "Hey, we

33:19have a heavy investment in Brock Lesnar.

33:21We're going to screw this up." Oh god

33:24damn it. Do something about that. Take

33:26over his matches. You produce them. So I

33:29started producing his matches and we

33:32just went by the theory of simple

33:36spotlighted singular. If we just kept as

33:40matches to that,

33:42it would resonate. It would translate to

33:44the audience. And in that we found a

33:48chemistry with each other that was

33:50undeniable.

33:51And Vince experienced it in the room

33:53with us at one point. And the night

33:57before Wrestlemania 18, Vince pulled me

34:00aside and he said, "Uh, this whole thing

34:02with Ben was called off."

34:06Okay. I'm putting you with Brock Lesnar.

34:11Okay.

34:13Happy to be of service cuz I knew this

34:16is this is a once ever opportunity and

34:21that's a once- athlete and this will be

34:24a once- act. You know, it's the moment

34:27that I feel like made people realize,

34:29oh, Brock Lesnar's different. So, he

34:31arrives and people go that he's a beast.

34:33He's gigantic. But that chair shot from

34:36Jeff Hardy that doesn't even phase him.

34:40Oh my god.

34:43Yes.

34:45Yes. Eat, [laughter]

34:46sleep, conquer, repeat. Brock

34:51Lesnar.

34:52>> It's like one of the hardest chair shots

34:54I've ever seen. And he's just like

34:56stumbles for half a second and then just

34:57keeps going. [laughter]

34:59>> All right. What a debut.

35:00>> From Blazing Saddles.

35:03>> What a reference.

35:04>> But he is, you know, hey, you can't be

35:07YOU YOU CAN'T KNOCKS out the horse, you

35:10know, [laughter] walks into the bar,

35:11cleans out the whole thing.

35:14>> What a beautiful moment you and Brock

35:16Lesnar shared at Wrestlemania 42. Can

35:18you take me into the ring? What was the

35:20conversation that you guys shared during

35:23that long embrace?

35:25>> I thanked him for everything. He thanked

35:27me for everything. I told him that I

35:29love him. He told me that he loves me.

35:32And then I asked him if he finds it

35:34funny that the two of us are standing in

35:35the middle of the ring, in the middle of

35:37a stadium, in the middle of Wrestlemania

35:39being broadcast all over the world on

35:42ESPN telling each other that we love

35:45each other. I said, "Is this kind of a

35:47surreal moment?" And he goes, "Fuck him.

35:50Don't worry [laughter] about that. This

35:51is just for us."

35:54Okay, my beast.

35:57Happy happy to participate in the

35:59moment. It was just it was just a very

36:02personal moment that we were

36:06not hesitant to share with the rest of

36:10the world. It was it was a very uh

36:14it was a very emotional moment and I and

36:15and it was uh it it it

36:21was just very it was very personal. I

36:24you know I I talk for a living and I I I

36:26I find it hard to convey in words what

36:29that was like. It was just a moment that

36:31that happened and was was true.

36:34>> It's one of the few times I feel like we

36:36saw the real Brock Lesnar. like the

36:38character seems stripped away for those

36:40few moments. Him getting up on the

36:42turnbuckle and thanking the crowd.

36:45That's not something the character of

36:46Brock Lesnar would ever do. It felt

36:48really special. It was and and it was

36:52genuine. It it was just an authentic

36:54moment and and and and and it and it was

36:56Brock saying thank you uh on his own

36:59timetable when he felt like saying it,

37:01which which is Brock Lesnar. you know,

37:05Brock Lesnar does what Brock Lesnar

37:07wants to do. And Brock Lesnar wanted to

37:09say thank you in that moment,

37:11and so he did.

37:13>> And I guess that it was it was a moment

37:14to say thank you, but it wasn't a

37:16retirement. Brock Lesnar is still

37:19competing.

37:20>> Indeed, he is. So,

37:23what was what do we make of that moment?

37:25What what what should we make of that

37:27moment at Wrestlemania 42?

37:31remember how I felt. If I'm an audience

37:34member, I remember how I felt watching

37:36it. I'd remember what that moment was. I

37:40remember all that it encompassed

37:42and I would be appreciative of the fact

37:45that I got to live that moment and

37:47experience it and hold it in my datab

37:51bank as a fan.

37:53>> You've managed so many champions. So

37:55many Paul Heymon guys have gone on to be

37:58champions. I don't know if you've talked

38:00about this before. What happened? What

38:02was the original plan with Curtis Axel?

38:06Why didn't that one work out?

38:10Because I don't think it was meant to

38:12work out.

38:14I don't think there was ever an overall

38:16grand scheme to move Curtis Axel all the

38:20way up the ladder. Curtis Axel filled

38:22the need for there to be

38:27people around me to feed the CM Punk at

38:30the time.

38:32It's the same thing that happened to

38:33Cesaro.

38:36You you look at Cesaro and and he

38:39checked especially at that moment in

38:41time,

38:43he checked every box to become a top

38:46star. Everyone who got into the ring

38:48with him came back into Guerilla saying,

38:52"Give me him." Everyone. Everyone. I

38:56remember John Cena worked with him on

38:58television and came back and looked at

39:00Vince and said, "I could I could main

39:02event WrestleMania with

39:05and and probably could have and should

39:07have." Cesaro was placed in that

39:10position

39:12the day after Brock Lesnar conquered the

39:15streak. So that when Brock took his

39:18hiatus, I had an excuse to be on

39:21television to say my client Brock Lesnar

39:26conquered the Undertaker's undefeated

39:27streak at WrestleMania. And you needed

39:29an excuse to have me out there on

39:31television. And if you put me on

39:32commentary, I can't say it for two or

39:34three hours. I have to say it with

39:37impact once a week. Just drill that into

39:40your head. Reinforcement. Repetition.

39:42Repetition. Repetition. Repetition.

39:44Repetition.

39:46And so Cesaro became the excuse

39:50>> to see you

39:51>> to see me say the line.

39:53>> Yeah.

39:53>> Curtis Axel was

39:56cast

39:58as

40:00Paul Heymon guy. Generic Paul Heymon

40:02guy. Uh you may you may as well have put

40:05a mask on him and call him the mad

40:07Russian,

40:09Mr. X, the assassin, uh you know, the

40:12punk destroyer. so that we could feed

40:16the babyface CM Punk. And that's a shame

40:20for Curtis Axel because he had a lot

40:23more to offer. But he delivered in those

40:26matches with Punk and that was the

40:29assignment. And

40:32once that assignment was over, there was

40:35no plan to propel him further.

40:38and he didn't have the cache to go in

40:44and

40:45pitch for something that would continue

40:48the momentum coming out of that program.

40:50>> So, there wasn't a long-term plan for

40:52either of those guys?

40:54>> Not I don't believe so. If there if

40:56there was, I was never clued in on it.

40:59When I was told I was getting Curtis

41:01Axel, my my question was, "What are we

41:04doing with this?" And and Vince's answer

41:06was going all the way to the top. I

41:08don't think Vince really felt that about

41:10him. And I don't think I mean I could

41:13tell by the third week I was with

41:14Cesaro, oh, I understand what we're

41:17doing here. I I get it. I I I

41:20see I see this how this is going to play

41:22out. As soon as Brock is back, this this

41:26is going to get discarded

41:27>> because if Cesaro had any weakness,

41:30maybe it's his promos aren't strong

41:31enough. Pair him with Paul Heymon, oh my

41:33gosh, he's unstoppable. See, but I I I I

41:36I think Cesaro was fascinating on the

41:38microphone if he were to be given the

41:41opportunity to demonstrate his skills.

41:42The man spoke five languages fluently.

41:45>> Yeah. I don't know how many people do

41:47that. If again, I'm I'm a I'm a cinema

41:51file. Watching Glorious Bastards wa

41:53watch Kristoff Waltz and and and when he

41:56uh when he does the scene, you know, he

41:59speaks German. Well, he speaks German,

42:01you know, in the movie. He speaks

42:03English in the movie and and and then uh

42:05Brad Pitt's crew are all uh you know

42:08speaking in Italian you know domin

42:11you know gami gorami you know and then

42:14all of a sudden uh uh Waltz comes in

42:16with you know and you start speaking in

42:19this oporatic tone in in in fluent

42:22Italian and you sit there go oh my god

42:26look at this I if if Cesaro was given

42:28the opportunity to answer every question

42:30in a different language

42:32you'd have seen a side of his

42:34personality because he will put

42:37emphasis in the dialect and you will see

42:41his mannerisms match the dialect that

42:44that he's presenting. So I think Cesaro

42:48could have been a fascinating promo if

42:51he was given the chance to do that in

42:54WWE. He wasn't. And and and that's

42:58that's our fault. That's that that that

43:00that that is a major fumble. That that

43:03that was a crime that was committed

43:06against the career of Cesaro and a crime

43:10that was committed against the audience

43:12for not

43:14allowing this gifted performer to do

43:18what at the time certainly he could do

43:22better than most anybody else on the

43:24face of the planet. And by the way,

43:28when you realize what he's capable of,

43:31what an opponent he could have been for

43:32Brock Lesnar.

43:34>> Yeah.

43:36>> Had I turned on Cesaro

43:39and we built him up to be a threat to

43:41Brock, the matches the two of them could

43:44have had

43:45>> are mindboggling. A tremendously wasted

43:49opportunity and no one for us to blame

43:52but ourselves, including me. Has this

43:55ever happened to you where there's a

43:56show or an event that you want to watch,

43:58but it's only available on a certain

44:00streaming service and you can't believe

44:02how much a subscription to that

44:04streaming service costs? NordVPN has you

44:07covered. With NordVPN, you just log in

44:09and change your virtual location to

44:11somewhere where it costs less to sign up

44:13and boom, there you go. You can do it

44:15from any device, your laptop, phone, or

44:18tablet. And the great thing about

44:19NordVPN is it's more than just a VPN

44:22now. With their NextG antivirus, NordVPN

44:25warns you about potential scams and

44:27protects you against fake online stores.

44:29NextG antivirus scans your files for

44:32malware and deletes the dangerous ones.

44:34It also blocks fishing sites, trackers,

44:36and even scam phone calls. It's like

44:38having your own personal bodyguard.

44:40NordVPN is now your all-in-one app for

44:43digital security. Not bad for the price

44:45of a cup of coffee every month. This is

44:47an exclusive deal that you can only get

44:49by going to nordvpn.com/cv.

44:53So head there now to take advantage of

44:55it before it's gone. Plus, there's no

44:56risk with Nord's 30-day money back

44:59guarantee. That's nordvpn.com/cv.

45:03You mentioned Brock Lesnar ending

45:05Undertaker streak at Wrestlemania 30.

45:08Your expression was perfect. You were

45:10all of us. And I'm curious, how much

45:13thought did you put into that exact

45:15expression that you would have on

45:17camera?

45:18>> None. I I I just I lived the moment. And

45:22and and and that and that goes Brock and

45:25I both like to live in the moment. I

45:28tried for years to tell Brock what I was

45:30going to say on my promos. He would

45:31never want it. I'll hear it out there.

45:34I'll react to it organically. It'll be

45:37authentic. It'll be genuine. So,

45:40when Brock was standing next to me and I

45:42would cut our promos, the reaction that

45:45you saw from Brock Lesnar was very real

45:48because he didn't know what I was going

45:50to say. He's just reacting to it. That's

45:53Brock. Um,

45:57when I'm out there, I'm in the skin of

45:59that persona.

46:02I'm living the life of the advocate for

46:05Brock Lesnar. He conquered the

46:08unconquerable.

46:09He He created a moment that was

46:12unfathomable to most. He achieved the

46:17holy grail in WWE.

46:20It's a bigger victory than any

46:21championship Brock could have won. It

46:24was a bigger victory than beating any

46:27champion or any legend. He conquered the

46:32Undertaker's undefeated streak which had

46:34been going on for 25

46:37years. Everyone watching that match from

46:41the time the bell rang said the

46:44scorecard is going to read the

46:46scoreboard is going to read

46:4922 and zero.

46:51>> No doubt theta complete as if the match

46:55were predetermined.

46:57And yet when that 21 and one hit,

47:04how could you be anything but shocked?

47:07And even the person closest to Brock,

47:11the strategist behind the conquering,

47:14the one behind the one in 21 and one.

47:20How could even he not be absolutely

47:25shocked at what just transpired

47:28in front of him?

47:31It's just a natural reaction.

47:33>> You talk about how WWE should be

47:36eligible to be nominated for an Emmy,

47:38that WWE should be nominated for an

47:40Emmy, that you, sir, should be nominated

47:42for an Emmy. It's performances like that

47:45where it's like, yeah, that's an Emmy

47:47winning performance.

47:48Yeah, I think the Emmy awards are are

47:50are are years behind on this. The

47:54I I I

47:57would love to see someone

48:00do what we do under the circumstances

48:04that we do it. It it it goes back to

48:08Lawrence Olivier doing Shakespeare in

48:10the Park in London and he would do King

48:15Lear on a Saturday and Athell on on on a

48:19Sunday and never mess up the lines and

48:22he's there with a live audience. So if

48:24he did mess up the lines, everyone would

48:26know. It's not like he's doing it on a

48:28closed sound stage where I could sit

48:31here and go, "Oh, I screwed up. Sorry."

48:33Okay, cut. Okay, ready? Restart in

48:37three, two, one, and boom, we're back

48:40on. And no one knows.

48:43>> We do these scenes

48:46in front of 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, 50,

48:5170,000 people in an arena and and in in

48:55a stadium, in a hall,

48:58and we play them out.

49:01And if we mess up, we have to

49:03incorporate that mess up into the stick

49:09or we have to acknowledge, no pun

49:12intended, the fact that we messed up and

49:14we have to correct it or just move on.

49:17Uh, I don't know if Javier Bardm can

49:21take that pressure. I'd love to find

49:23out. I don't know if Paul Giamati can

49:25take that pressure. I'd love to find

49:27out. I don't know if Christian Bale I

49:30don't know if Jeffrey Wright I don't

49:32know if um Tom Hardy I I I I don't know

49:37if Mel Street

49:39can take the pressure of that live

49:41audience. I know that all of these great

49:43actors love to do theater. They you know

49:46the Broadway stage is is is an actor's

49:49medium be because you are there with an

49:52intimate audience but it's 300 people.

49:55Try playing that scene out in front of

49:5720,000 who are looking for you to screw

49:59up.

49:59>> Yeah.

50:00>> Uh and we do it

50:05on a level that is picked up by the

50:08largest streaming service on the face of

50:10the planet, Netflix, that is distributed

50:13for premium live events by ESPN. That is

50:17still on Friday nights on on on NBCU on

50:20USA Network. So obviously we're doing

50:23something right. or we would cut out

50:26these scenes, these promos, and we would

50:29just do match after match after match

50:31after [clears throat] match, and

50:32everything would be pre-taped and

50:36stylized and heavily edited to deliver

50:39the best performance imaginable.

50:42So, if I'm doing a live scene

50:45and it's on USA Network or it's on

50:47Netflix or it's on the

50:50or YouTube or anywhere or and and I'm

50:54and I'm presenting something in

50:55character, why is that not eligible for

50:58an Emmy?

50:58>> It's a great question.

51:00>> I wish someone at the Emmys would would

51:02answer the question. I don't understand

51:03how we're not I I I I challenge people

51:07to do what we do under the circumstances

51:09that we do it. and I challenge someone

51:11at the Emmys to come forth and say,

51:13"Here's why." Makes no sense to me.

51:17>> I think that people just think that

51:19you're an on-screen character cuz that's

51:20just what they see on Raw or Smackdown.

51:22But what is your role in WWE? Now

51:31if I were to list my scope of services

51:34well would be number one I'm I'm the

51:36liaison for some talent

51:39in terms of I'm the creative liaison

51:42between that talent and the creative

51:44team the creative team and that talent

51:46so a lot of the creative will flow

51:48through me in both directions

51:52I

51:53handle

51:54a lot of the behind the scenes business

51:59for members of the Vision obviously for

52:02Brock Lesnar and there are others and

52:07more so on Fridays than on Mondays

52:10because Mondays I'm on air a lot. I sit

52:15all the way in the right corner in

52:17Guerilla.

52:19Paul Lec is is up is is up in in in the

52:22position with the headsets on. Uh Bruce

52:26Pritchard or Ed Kski or John Beckrom or

52:30Ryan Ward will sit next to Paul. So of

52:34the thousand details per show that that

52:37Paul has to hold on to, anything that

52:41okay take care of this, okay, take care

52:42of that. as he navigates the macro. The

52:47micro will fall down to the person next

52:49to him. In front of them will be Kidman

52:53or Jason uh who who keep the show honest

52:57in terms of time commercial breaks. Uh

53:00we we have to hit this crossover. We

53:02have to be off the air by this moment.

53:04And next to them will be the producer of

53:06the segment on headsets. To the to to

53:09this side will be the writer of the

53:11segment on headsets. And next to the

53:13writer is me. And I just sit there and I

53:17watch the show and I'm watching for

53:20things that we need to follow up on

53:22that. Ooh, you know what? Let's not

53:24follow up anymore on on on this. Let's

53:26pull that segment coming up in 12 or 13

53:29because it's it's a good mystery as it

53:31is now. I I can give instant feedback

53:33during the show, but more importantly,

53:36I'm there for any talent. I'm there all

53:38day for any talent, top to bottom.

53:42newcomer to veteran, uh, NXT talent

53:45moving up to to legend that's there for

53:47a cameo. I'm there for anybody that

53:50wants to talk about their performance

53:51that night or their creat or their

53:54creative process or how they're going to

53:56approach a certain scene or their match

53:59or their finish or anything that they

54:01want to talk about this business

54:04in the art form of the presentation

54:07immediate or long term. I'm there to

54:09talk to them to

54:14if if if I can have the liberty of using

54:17this phrase to bestow some wisdom upon

54:19them.

54:19>> Sure.

54:21>> You've worked for a lot of bookers.

54:23You've been a booker yourself. What

54:25would you say is the biggest difference

54:26between working for Vince McMahon and

54:29working now with Paul Levc?

54:31>> It's a completely different job.

54:34And anyone that that doesn't see that

54:36doesn't understand the dynamic of

54:41what it takes to lead the creative

54:44process today.

54:47When I became

54:49the executive director of Monday Night

54:52Raw, Vince asked me, "What's your goal

54:56in this

54:58long term?" And my answer was,

55:01"In five years, I'd like to be the chief

55:04creative officer."

55:07Paul Le is not the chief creative

55:10officer in WWE. He's the chief content

55:14officer. And that designation, I think,

55:18is the tell all moment as to his

55:23approach to the responsibility and

55:27accountabilities that go with the job.

55:32This is no longer a job that is dictated

55:37by the immediate by the immediate

55:40audience's need to see this person as

55:44champion at this particular show that is

55:47followed up that Monday on Raw and the

55:51next episode of Smackdown. He is the

55:54chief content officer in an era where

56:03technology

56:06rules the algorithm and the algorithm

56:09dictates creativity.

56:12The distribution of our content

56:16is determined by the algorithm.

56:19So, it can be the most creative

56:23and the most innovative booking you've

56:26ever seen,

56:28but if it doesn't feed the algorithm, no

56:31one's going to see it. So, then it's not

56:35efficient. It's not profitable.

56:38and any great booker and I don't know

56:41who the top five experts in this world

56:44are in terms of booking but I think any

56:48list would have to include me for sure

56:52and if I look at the job today and I

56:55don't want the job today because there

56:58are so many masters to serve

57:01one of them being the algorithm the

57:04other being the distributors you have to

57:06please Netflix you have to please NBCU.

57:09You have to please Disney/EA ESPN. You

57:13have to please the purchasing audience.

57:16You have to please the talent.

57:18I I get so many people write to me on

57:20LinkedIn. I want to be a WWE writer. I

57:24can change so many things for the

57:26better. I can make this the glory days

57:28of WWE. I HAVE SO MANY IDEAS.

57:33Good for you. How you going to implement

57:35them?

57:37Make me president of the United States.

57:40Great. But if I can't get anything past

57:42the Congress, can't get anything past

57:44the Senate, can't get anything past the

57:45Supreme Court, I'm going to be the least

57:47effective president that this country

57:49has ever seen. An effective president

57:52has to sell his ideas to to a bipartisan

57:55Congress, bipartisan Senate, and a and

57:58the Supreme Court and the constituents

58:00that voted the president into office.

58:03You have to please a lot of masters.

58:06Paul Lec is the best person for that

58:09job.

58:11He's a collaborator.

58:13He pivots. He understands. And he

58:16understands that what works today may

58:17not work tomorrow and what works

58:19tomorrow may not work in two days. He's

58:22brilliant at taking a look at the

58:25landscape and understanding,

58:29does this make sense? Is it logical?

58:33Does the storyline work? Will it create

58:36box office and interest and intrigue?

58:40Does it work for the characters

58:41involved? Does it progress the

58:44characters involved and take them from

58:46being

58:50characters on a television show into

58:52becoming attractions.

58:55Look at the past

58:588 to 10 months in WWE.

59:02Obami has become an attraction.

59:06>> Yes,

59:06>> Trick Williams has become an attraction.

59:10>> If Javon Evans is not labeled an

59:13attraction by the end of this summer,

59:16then someone's either not looking at it

59:19in the right perspective

59:21or we messed up. And I don't think we're

59:23going to mess up with Javon Evans. And

59:25there's a whole bunch of other people as

59:27well. Saul Roka is going to be a star,

59:30an absolute bonafide attraction.

59:34Look at these people emerging.

59:37We're how many years now into the Paul

59:39Le reign?

59:41It's it's it's it's a matter of serving

59:43all of these content needs on a creative

59:47basis. And he's doing it better now than

59:50he did just a couple of years ago when I

59:53stood during my Hall of Fame speech and

59:56told everybody I'm a Paul Le guy. Cuz

59:59it's not just the way that it's not just

1:00:02how he guides us. the manner in which he

1:00:04does so and the collaborative effort

1:00:07with him is even better now than it was

1:00:11then.

1:00:13So

1:00:14you you give me a a few billion dollars

1:00:17and say start a wrestling company, I'm

1:00:20hiring him for the job. It's a difficult

1:00:22position he's in because when things are

1:00:24going well, he gets all the praise. When

1:00:26people don't like something, he gets all

1:00:28of the criticism, right? And he has to

1:00:30balance both of those. How does he do

1:00:33that in your opinion?

1:00:34>> Very well. Seamlessly.

1:00:37I I don't think he takes the compliments

1:00:40to heart because I don't think he takes

1:00:44the invalid criticism to heart. And I

1:00:47think he's very good at differentiating

1:00:49between invalid criticism and valid

1:00:52criticism. And if the criticism is

1:00:54valid, he'll shift.

1:00:55>> How do you differentiate between that?

1:00:57>> It's it's a judgment call. It's it's

1:01:00it's it's taking a look at the

1:01:02circumstances and saying, "Is this

1:01:05working to the best that it can work? Is

1:01:07this the most profitable I can make this

1:01:11story? Is it is it is it new? Is it

1:01:15different? Is it fresh? Is it

1:01:16innovative? I is is is it progressive?

1:01:20Does it move the characters and the

1:01:22story forward? Is it efficient? Is it

1:01:25profitable?" These are all the things

1:01:26you have to look at when you script

1:01:29anything.

1:01:31Give me 15 seconds of television to look

1:01:34into the camera and say something. And

1:01:38if you let me say something for weeks on

1:01:40end, at some point the public is going

1:01:44to accept it at some point.

1:01:47>> Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, Joe Gabushki

1:01:51is the greatest unknown wrestler on the

1:01:54face of the planet today. 3 2 1 cut.

1:02:00Right. Next week on television, ladies

1:02:02and gentlemen, have you heard the news?

1:02:05Joe Gabooki is the greatest talent that

1:02:09you've never heard of on the face of the

1:02:12planet today. 3 2 1 cut. Come back that

1:02:16Friday on Smackdown. Ladies and

1:02:17gentlemen, breaking news. I don't know

1:02:20if you've heard this. Joe Gabooki will

1:02:23debut in WWE

1:02:26next week.

1:02:28I guarantee you the ratings for that

1:02:30segment will be huge. Why? Cuz Joe

1:02:33Gabooki

1:02:35is the greatest unheralded talent in

1:02:37history.

1:02:38>> Anticipation.

1:02:39Yeah. And you sold it, too.

1:02:41>> Anticipation. Repetition.

1:02:44um

1:02:46hype

1:02:47>> and delivery. So if you tell people

1:02:50enough so many times that this is a

1:02:54fact, they'll accept it as a fact. But

1:02:56if I sit here and and and if we have

1:02:58nothing to deliver on Joe Gabooi that

1:03:02Monday, if someone that doesn't if

1:03:04someone doesn't come out that looks like

1:03:07Brock or Oba or Roman Reigns, if some if

1:03:11someone or something doesn't come out to

1:03:14the ring and wow you that Monday. Yeah.

1:03:17Then the next time I come on, I go,

1:03:18"Ladies and gentlemen,

1:03:20I know you don't believe this, but

1:03:23Victor

1:03:25Vernacular is coming out next Monday.

1:03:28off. Why? Who cares? You lied to me

1:03:31the last time."

1:03:33>> So, you not only have to hype it, right,

1:03:35>> you got to deliver.

1:03:36>> Yeah. So, in in in an era of an era in a

1:03:41in an industry that's built on

1:03:44embellishment and exaggeration,

1:03:46you know, of course, hey, if you're a

1:03:48seven, take it up to a 10. If you're a

1:03:5010, take it up to a 12. You know, if if

1:03:52you're 245 lbs, say you're 265. If

1:03:55you're 6'9, you're 7 feet tall. In in in

1:03:58an industry built on embellishment and

1:04:00exaggeration,

1:04:01>> Yeah. You have to almost underpromise

1:04:03and overd deliver every time

1:04:05>> because if you overpromise then you have

1:04:08to over overd deliver because if you

1:04:11underdel you lose your credibility.

1:04:14It's why in ECW we never violated

1:04:17stipulations.

1:04:19>> That's an interesting point.

1:04:20>> Kept our credibility with the fans.

1:04:22>> Yeah.

1:04:23>> Never. You loser leaves town that person

1:04:25left town. The losing tag team must

1:04:27split up. They split up. A a any

1:04:30stipulation that that we advertised in

1:04:32ECW, we lived up to. We we didn't go the

1:04:36route of, well, now the this lawyer

1:04:39and the general manager. We didn't do

1:04:41that. We didn't we didn't build those

1:04:43into our story lines because when we

1:04:46advertise a stipulation, it was box

1:04:48office in ECW because we never vi

1:04:51because we kept our credibility with the

1:04:52audience. Same thing with the way that

1:04:56Paul Le can discern from

1:05:00invalid criticism to valid criticism.

1:05:03You look at it for what it is. You see

1:05:05the trajectory of where it's going. You

1:05:07take a look at how it affects every

1:05:09single other item on on on on the card

1:05:13or on the show for that day and what

1:05:16we're building towards. And then you

1:05:17make an educated and and valued

1:05:20decision. and he's the best at it.

1:05:23>> Fans feel like they know so much right

1:05:25now, especially because all of this

1:05:27information is constantly in our pocket.

1:05:30They feel like they are just they could

1:05:32book this show better than anybody. What

1:05:34are wrestling fans not understand about

1:05:38putting together a wrestling show?

1:05:43That it's not about the immediate

1:05:44moment.

1:05:49You asked me before what I do behind the

1:05:52scenes in WWE. I do not go into the

1:05:56weekly television meeting. I don't

1:06:00get into that level of of of micro

1:06:03anymore. I stay very macro. I attend the

1:06:08long-term meetings, the long-term

1:06:10creative meetings. I take the ride up to

1:06:13Stanford and I sit in on those meetings

1:06:15and love those days.

1:06:18My latest obsession has been let's book

1:06:22out Saudi mania. Let's get that done.

1:06:26>> So you're already looking at that now.

1:06:27>> Oh, I'm looking at the year after Saudi.

1:06:30>> Wow.

1:06:30>> If it was up to me and it's not,

1:06:33>> let's start there. We'll change it every

1:06:35week if we have to. We'll change it

1:06:37every time we meet. But let's get

1:06:39something that we're building towards.

1:06:40Let's write the last page now and then

1:06:43let's build towards it. I would love to

1:06:46know what we're doing the year after

1:06:48Saudi Wrestlemania. I'd love to have a

1:06:50concept for that. Who is Roman Reigns's

1:06:53opponent then? Who's CM Punk's opponent

1:06:56then? Who's Logan Paul's opponent then?

1:06:59Who's Braun Breaker's opponent then?

1:07:02Who's Seth Rollins opponent then? Jade

1:07:04Cargles, Becky Lynch, Liv Morgan, Ria

1:07:08Ripley. What are we building towards?

1:07:12Because if we know that and we have a

1:07:15concept for that, then it makes Saudi

1:07:18mania really easy.

1:07:21It's not about, OH, YOU KNOW WHAT I

1:07:22WOULD DO THIS MONDAY.

1:07:25OKAY, but how does that affect the next

1:07:26Monday? How does that affect what I want

1:07:28to do in January? How does that affect

1:07:30the Royal Rumble? How does that affect

1:07:32Saudi mania? How do I that how does that

1:07:35affect what I want to do the year after?

1:07:37Here's an example.

1:07:40Right now we have lined up for Crown

1:07:45Jewel

1:07:47the trilogy

1:07:49>> right now with the current champions.

1:07:50You mean

1:07:51>> the champion on Raw is Roman Reigns?

1:07:53>> Yes.

1:07:54>> Champion on Smackdown is Cody Rhodess.

1:07:56>> I see. Yes.

1:07:57>> It's one in one.

1:07:58>> Yeah.

1:08:00>> If they both retain the titles

1:08:03all the way to Crown Jewel.

1:08:04>> Yeah.

1:08:04>> We get the trilogy at Crown Jewel,

1:08:07>> right? What an enormous main event. What

1:08:12a prestigious main event. What a

1:08:14historic

1:08:16main event for Crown Jewel. You want to

1:08:19sell Crown Jewel? You want that to be

1:08:22one of the biggest PL of the year? You

1:08:24want that to be a hot ticket both in

1:08:27terms of selling tickets and on the

1:08:29secondary market,

1:08:32put the Triple G match there.

1:08:33>> Yeah.

1:08:34>> Wow. What a main event. What an

1:08:37attraction for Crown Jewel. Let's say we

1:08:40don't want to give it away.

1:08:41>> I see where I see where you're going

1:08:42here.

1:08:42>> Let's say we want to do that in Saudi

1:08:45>> Wrestlemania 43.

1:08:46>> Let's say we don't want to do that at

1:08:48Wrestlemania 43. Let's say we want to

1:08:51make them wait another year. What will

1:08:54be Wrestlemania 44? Will that be the

1:08:57tribal chief Roman Reigns against the

1:09:00American nightmare Cody Rhodess? Will

1:09:04that be

1:09:06a return to villainous tribal chief head

1:09:10of a new bloodline Roman Reigns against

1:09:14the

1:09:16hopeful come from behind uh against all

1:09:20odds virtuous American nightmare Cody

1:09:23Rhodess?

1:09:25Will that be the first Wrestlemania of a

1:09:27villainous [snorts] Cody Rhodess against

1:09:30my righteous tribal chief Roman Reigns?

1:09:33What would that look like? Well, I can't

1:09:36get to that by Saudi, but I can by the

1:09:40next year. Maybe I just want to pull

1:09:42that trigger for that trilogy at in

1:09:45Saudi at Wrestlemania. Maybe I want to

1:09:48build up Crown Jewels so big

1:09:53that I place that main event there and I

1:09:55end the trilogy at Crown Jewel. Maybe I

1:10:00look at all these main events that I can

1:10:03get to.

1:10:05What will the main event be at Saudi

1:10:08mania? Will Brock Lesnar be involved?

1:10:10Will Obami be involved? Will Trick

1:10:13Williams be involved? Will Randy Orton

1:10:17be involved? Will Javon Evans be

1:10:20involved? Will Braun Breaker, Austin

1:10:22Theory or Logan Paul, Bronson Reed, Ria

1:10:25Ripley? Who's going to be involved? I

1:10:28look at that dynamic. I don't need this

1:10:30match for Wrestlemania 43 or even

1:10:33Wrestlemania 44. You know where I need

1:10:34it? I need it for the Royal Rumble.

1:10:37Let's do the trilogy match at the Royal

1:10:38Rumble. So therefore, either Roman

1:10:41Reigns or Cody Rhodess or neither can be

1:10:45championed going into Crown Jewel. I

1:10:48need to move one or both of these

1:10:50championships around and offer something

1:10:52different to be big box office at Crown

1:10:55Jewel so that I can then present the

1:10:58trilogy at the Rumble where I need it,

1:11:01at Saudi Mania where I want it, at

1:11:03Wrestlemania 44 where I've made you wait

1:11:05long enough to get maybe SummerSlam next

1:11:08year at a stadium. all these factors cuz

1:11:11when you decide to do something, it

1:11:14takes away everything else that you can

1:11:17possibly do. All your options then are

1:11:20removed from the table cuz you made the

1:11:23decision this is the way we're going to

1:11:27do it.

1:11:30I can book. I can write. I I can I can

1:11:32be the best booker of all time. Here's

1:11:34what you do on Monday night. Great.

1:11:36Thank you very much. and what's the

1:11:38followup and what are the ramifications

1:11:41of that decision and what does what

1:11:44equity does it take off the table that I

1:11:47can never go back to because you're

1:11:49giving it away this Monday night. So

1:11:51what you're saying is a lot of times we

1:11:53see something play out on a Monday or on

1:11:55a Friday that actually will have a

1:11:58payoff a month from now, maybe six

1:12:00months from now, perhaps even longer.

1:12:05The first thing you learn in chess, look

1:12:07at the whole board. What's the first

1:12:09thing you learn when when you start to

1:12:12learn how to drive? Never look right in

1:12:15front of you. Look as far down the road

1:12:17as possible. All these analogies in life

1:12:21play out.

1:12:23If you if you're just doing the chess

1:12:25moves, you know, rook to knight three,

1:12:28okay,

1:12:30it's it's hot shot. It's shortterm. It's

1:12:34narrow casting. I want to broadcast.

1:12:37I want to have a long-term plan here. I

1:12:40want tomorrow to have more box office

1:12:42than today and two days from now to have

1:12:44more box office than tomorrow. And I

1:12:47can't do that if I'm doing knee-jerk

1:12:50reactions to what just happened this

1:12:53past Monday, this past Friday, or we're

1:12:56at the Premium Alive event. Can't There

1:12:59has to be a long-term plan. there there

1:13:01has to be an an overall arc that we're

1:13:04trying to achieve and we have to at

1:13:06least be cognizant of what could

1:13:09possibly be next after this story runs

1:13:12its course. So, I've been seeing a lot

1:13:15of comments on YouTube like this. Chris,

1:13:18you're 42. You look in your 30s. I'm

1:13:21sorry, you're 42. I never would have

1:13:24guessed. And I want to know CVV's

1:13:27skinincare routine. You guys are too

1:13:29kind. I'll be 43 in May and as you can

1:13:32see, no no Botox, lots of wrinkles and

1:13:35lots of face movement here. I get a lot

1:13:37of comments about that as well. I've

1:13:39been using Caldera Lab for years and I

1:13:41am pumped that they are now officially a

1:13:44sponsor here on the channel and [music]

1:13:45this takes less than a minute morning or

1:13:48night. So, the great is the product that

1:13:50I tell every guy to start with. It's the

1:13:52product that I start with. It absorbs in

1:13:54seconds and after a few weeks you

1:13:56genuinely see a difference. your skin

1:13:59looks firmer, it's brighter, just

1:14:02healthier overall. Then you got the

1:14:04hydro layer, which is the anti-aging

1:14:05moisturizer. This is super lightweight

1:14:08and disappears [music] into your skin.

1:14:10Like, this isn't thick and heavy like

1:14:12what you typically think of with a

1:14:13moisturizer. And they've actually proven

1:14:16that it keeps you hydrated for up to 48

1:14:18hours. You can see how much of that that

1:14:21I've used right there. Then finally, you

1:14:23got the eye serum, the anti-aging eye

1:14:26treatment. This takes 10 seconds in the

1:14:28morning and I genuinely look more awake

1:14:30when I use this. It's the easiest and

1:14:33the quickest upgrade that I've made.

1:14:35This is a small habit with big results.

1:14:38Go to calderalab.com/chris.

1:14:41Use the code chris. You'll get 20% off

1:14:44your first order. That's

1:14:45calderalab.com/chris

1:14:47and use the code chris for 20% off.

1:14:50Earlier you mentioned working with Vince

1:14:52McMahon. What's the story behind you

1:14:55leaving WWE in 2006? What led to that?

1:15:00>> Uh, we had very different visions for

1:15:02the rebirth of ECW

1:15:05and I was a lead writer of the third

1:15:09show, Raw, Smackdown ECW, and he was the

1:15:13chairman of the board with 85% of the

1:15:16voting stock. One of us had to leave.

1:15:21Don't know if you're a betting man. Poly

1:15:23market, DraftKings, FanDuel, whoever

1:15:26wants to sponsor this. My bookie,

1:15:29>> if you're going to place a bet on which

1:15:30one of us was going to leave,

1:15:33>> I think the Jew boy from the Bronx,

1:15:34who's just merely the lead writer of the

1:15:36third show, is going to be the one whose

1:15:38ass is out the door, not the chairman of

1:15:41the board with 85% of the voting stock.

1:15:43>> What led to that? What led to

1:15:46just the relationship falling apart? the

1:15:49rebirth of ECW.

1:15:52It was

1:15:52>> But one night stand went so well,

1:15:54>> right? Because it was a one night stand.

1:15:57And one night stand 2005 was a

1:15:59magnificent event that was as authentic

1:16:03an ECW presentation as we could put on

1:16:06in 2005

1:16:08including but not limited to but

1:16:10certainly highlighted by the Sandman's

1:16:13entrance

1:16:16which I fought for to the point of

1:16:18almost getting fired because Vince

1:16:20didn't want to pay for Metallica.

1:16:22>> Right.

1:16:24Right.

1:16:25And uh

1:16:27>> what's Sam gonna come out to? Come on.

1:16:30>> But that when that music hit,

1:16:34everyone at the Hammerstein Ballroom

1:16:38knew, wow,

1:16:41this this is this is a real ECW show.

1:16:44This is how it felt back in the 90s and

1:16:48in 2000. Um, 2006 I thought

1:16:54was a Bminus show

1:16:58that had a main event that was so

1:17:03memorable that the audience

1:17:07made such a spectacle of Rob Vanam

1:17:10versus John Cena because in ECW, Rob

1:17:15Vanam never had a world title shot.

1:17:17>> Yeah. 23 months as the world TV

1:17:19champion. And for most of those 23

1:17:23months, the world TV title meant as

1:17:26much, if not more, than the world title

1:17:28because it was held by Rob Vanam and

1:17:31pushed in that fashion. But Rob Vanam

1:17:35finally going for the big title against

1:17:38John Cena, who was the antithesis of

1:17:41what an ECW fan thought should be

1:17:46a performer on an ECW show.

1:17:51And the main event was so memorable for

1:17:54the audience's reaction. The character

1:17:56of the audience was the star of of that

1:17:59show. And the fact that Rob Vanam won

1:18:06made that show

1:18:09popular, acceptable,

1:18:12beloved. And coming out of that, had we

1:18:16presented

1:18:18somewhat of a new style,

1:18:22a progressive, innovative approach to

1:18:25professional wrestling in 2006 that was

1:18:29a genuine alternative to anything WWE

1:18:33was offering at the time on Raw or

1:18:35Smackdown. It could have been a hit, but

1:18:38instead it just became a third brand

1:18:43utilizing stars off of Raw and

1:18:45Smackdown.

1:18:47First move I made in the new ECW, I

1:18:50brought CM Punk up from OVW.

1:18:53I wanted Rob Vanam

1:18:57to be the legend from the original crew.

1:19:01And then you sprinkle in all these other

1:19:04ECW originals as we move the new stars

1:19:09up into

1:19:11the spotlight of what would become a new

1:19:15version of ECW, which was at its worst

1:19:22a complete alternative to anything else

1:19:24that's out there. and instead that it

1:19:28was not what WWE was willing to put on

1:19:31the air and

1:19:34was amongst the most miserable

1:19:38experiences of my entire life because it

1:19:41became very personal between me and

1:19:43Vince very fast because I spent seven

1:19:46and a half years of my life building a

1:19:48brand that

1:19:51at some point became

1:19:55more of a cause than a business.

1:19:58>> Sure. To this day, people still chant

1:20:00ECW.

1:20:02>> So when you give your life to the cause,

1:20:06you give 7 and 1/2 years. And these are

1:20:09prime years, too.

1:20:10>> How much were you sleeping then?

1:20:12>> 2 hours a night.

1:20:14>> BUT I I DIDN'T WANT TO SLEEP.

1:20:15>> YEAH.

1:20:16>> I was too exhilarated.

1:20:17>> Yeah.

1:20:18>> It the worst day of my life in ECW was

1:20:23still a wonderful day. Yeah.

1:20:25>> Um I I I I was living out a dream and

1:20:28fighting for my life doing it and

1:20:30knowing that I'm fighting for a cause

1:20:32that I believed in. So

1:20:36no one drank the Kool-Aid of the cult of

1:20:38ECW more than Paul Heymon did. So, I

1:20:43gave seven and a half years of my life

1:20:44to that cult, to that cause, uh, to to

1:20:47to that mindset

1:20:50and to Vince because he was bored with

1:20:56no competition. WCW was gone, ECW is

1:20:59gone, TNA was nothing in terms of

1:21:04capturing Vince's attention. Uh, so what

1:21:09did Vince McMahon get to do? Oh. God

1:21:12damn it. I I get to change an ECW

1:21:14booking on Paul Heyaymon that it's a

1:21:16power. It's it's it's just it's it's

1:21:19it's

1:21:21how Vince operates and and and and so it

1:21:25became a very personal tugofwar between

1:21:28whose vision will be implemented for ECW

1:21:32when the whole dynamic was let's create

1:21:35a third brand that's a true alternative

1:21:37to the other two. So, it just became a

1:21:40miserable working environment. And

1:21:43>> what was the breaking point?

1:21:45>> The the breaking point was a week after

1:21:47we we started and and and and I couldn't

1:21:49take it anymore then and still had to

1:21:51last another 6 months in the job. The

1:21:53breaking point was the December to

1:21:54December.

1:21:56Um,

1:21:59coming off the Survivor Series, it was

1:22:01obvious to me that CM Punk was

1:22:07embedded in the zeitgeist of the mindset

1:22:10of the audience

1:22:12in WWE of who is the next big star. He

1:22:16captured the imagination of of of the

1:22:19WWE crowd. And if we could get the title

1:22:23onto Punk and put Vanam on the chase, we

1:22:28were getting Bobby Lashley. Put Bobby

1:22:30Lashley on the chase and and the rest of

1:22:34the

1:22:36characters in ECW

1:22:38would rise with the tide as the the

1:22:43hottest sensation in WWE. CM Punk is our

1:22:46champion. Rob Vanam,

1:22:49who would still be more popular than

1:22:51Punka in the moment, uh, going after the

1:22:53title, Bobby Lashley being anointed as

1:22:56the next big star coming off of

1:22:58Smackdown, uh, and and changing his

1:23:01style to a more MMA based style. Um,

1:23:05wow. We could have really

1:23:09taken this to where by mania

1:23:13ECW would have been redhot.

1:23:16And instead, because I was so infatuated

1:23:19with the idea of an ECW with CM Punk

1:23:27as the champion and Rob Vanam on the

1:23:29chase and Bobby Lashley on the chase

1:23:32that Vince said, "No, I want the title

1:23:34on Bobby Lashley.

1:23:36and

1:23:38we're going to beat CM Punk first in the

1:23:41elimination chamber and we're going to

1:23:42beat Vanam second in the elimination

1:23:45chamber which was a matter of spite.

1:23:47It's taking your guys out and and once

1:23:50we get to that

1:23:52then now I'm affecting everybody else's

1:23:54career number one. Number two, I'm

1:23:57affecting the audience having a chance

1:23:59to like the product because the product

1:24:02is being sabotaged by the very person

1:24:04who wants something out of the product

1:24:06for it to be profitable, but he can't

1:24:09get out of his own way in terms of

1:24:11competing with me behind the scenes for

1:24:14the decisions that are being made on a

1:24:17product that is still associated with me

1:24:20instead of with him. So just the clash

1:24:23between the two of us became just a

1:24:26god-awful miserable experience that one

1:24:30of us had to escape and he wasn't going

1:24:32anywhere. Was there ever talk in 2006 of

1:24:36you working with TNA behind the scenes?

1:24:38>> Not in 2006.

1:24:40>> Oh the at what point?

1:24:43>> Because you at this point you leave WWE.

1:24:45You're out of wrestling.

1:24:46>> Oh I left

1:24:47>> for the first time in your career.

1:24:48>> Yeah.

1:24:49>> Isn't that crazy? Paul Heymon not in

1:24:51wrestling.

1:24:52>> And I thought I was done

1:24:53>> for good.

1:24:54>> Oh, absolutely. I But but I thought that

1:24:57many times. I I thought when I in in

1:24:59January 1993 after WCW, I thought I was

1:25:02done. I was going to go do uh New York

1:25:05radio. I signed with the William Morris

1:25:06Agency and uh with an agent named

1:25:09Jonathan Trumper and uh I was going to

1:25:12go on New York radio and compete with

1:25:14Howard Stern.

1:25:16But instead came this little opportunity

1:25:19in Philadelphia from this promotion that

1:25:21had Tuesday night 6 pm sports channel

1:25:24Philadelphia clearance called Eastern

1:25:26Championship Wrestling and Jim

1:25:29Crockett's non-compete with WCW was

1:25:31expiring and he needed a booker and

1:25:36in seeing the landscape of professional

1:25:38wrestling

1:25:40lagging and no one implementing these

1:25:44changes uh that that were going along

1:25:48with the changes in television and

1:25:50content and presentation in 1993. I

1:25:54didn't go on New York radio to compete

1:25:56with Howard Stern and I went back into

1:25:58the industry. Uh same thing in 2006 when

1:26:01I was out. I was out. I I started with a

1:26:05gentleman named Mitchell Stewart who's

1:26:07an Emmy and Clear award-winning director

1:26:09in New York City. We started an agency

1:26:11called the Looking for Larry Agency,

1:26:13which we still run to this day.

1:26:16uh many digital pro projects. Um we

1:26:19started a broadband TV project with News

1:26:22Corp through the Sun which was then the

1:26:24London Sun which became the UK Sun which

1:26:26has became the Sun. Uh which and

1:26:29broadband TV ultimately morphed into

1:26:31what is now known as streaming. We were

1:26:34early on on that call as well.

1:26:37And uh I I I wrote Brock Lesnar's book

1:26:40with him, his autobiography, Death

1:26:42Watch.

1:26:43>> Such a good book. and was spearheading

1:26:46the move into digital

1:26:49uh through his UFC career.

1:26:53So it it was 5 and a half years away but

1:26:56it was a tremendous experience for me on

1:27:00the outside and if for no other reason

1:27:02but my children were very young at the

1:27:04time and I got a chance to spend

1:27:07enormous quality time with them which

1:27:10was

1:27:14the biggest change in my life because on

1:27:19every single solitary level just made a

1:27:22a better man and and and and a more

1:27:29human being.

1:27:32>> At what point did TNA reach out? Was

1:27:34this ever a possibility? No, I didn't

1:27:36ask that.

1:27:37>> 2010.

1:27:38>> Yeah. Were you ever close to working

1:27:40with TNA?

1:27:42>> Depends on the perspective of of of the

1:27:44person that you're asking. You're asking

1:27:46me, was I ever close? I don't know. Uh,

1:27:49I certainly told them what what my

1:27:50five-year plan was.

1:27:53Uh, and I and I talked about this on on

1:27:56Ariel Helwani's podcast back then. Going

1:28:00to get rid of everybody under over 40.

1:28:02Going to get rid of all the legends.

1:28:04Going to keep one. Back then, they they

1:28:07had way too many legends

1:28:08>> at that point. Yes.

1:28:11>> It was an old-timers game. and and and

1:28:15some of them had years left to give, but

1:28:18they got lumped in with the other

1:28:20veterans, so they seemed older than they

1:28:22were. And the magic of TNA in that like

1:28:25' 05 to09ish time was a lot of those

1:28:28upandcomers.

1:28:30>> You take a look at that roster.

1:28:32>> Oh my god. Yes. and what could have been

1:28:34done with them. But instead, they were

1:28:37all playing second fiddle to these big

1:28:41names from the Attitude Era that were no

1:28:46longer relevant or no longer had the

1:28:50cache to present innovative progressive

1:28:55storylines that would capture the

1:28:58imagination of a new audience.

1:29:01They had a niche. They serve the niche.

1:29:04They were never going to expand from it.

1:29:05Narrow casting versus broadcasting. Uh I

1:29:09wanted a piece of the company. I wanted

1:29:12the Dana White deal.

1:29:15And I wanted the ability in 36 months

1:29:18that to through their CFO was named Dean

1:29:22Broadhead, I believe, and uh and to take

1:29:25the company public. I had a meeting uh

1:29:29with Spike TV at the time. wanted their

1:29:32sign off for what I wanted to do

1:29:34creatively because it wouldn't work

1:29:37without their sign off again having to

1:29:40appease all masters uh and also wanted

1:29:43to know if they were willing to buy in

1:29:45should we take the company public 3

1:29:47years after I start my run in the

1:29:50creative process what it boiled down to

1:29:52was

1:29:54TNA did not want to let go of the

1:29:56legends

1:29:58did not want to forsake the appearances

1:30:01by the legends on the television show

1:30:04did not want the legends to be fed to

1:30:06the younger guys. So the AJ Styles and

1:30:11the Samoa Joe's and all the young talent

1:30:16that was there was always going to be

1:30:19secondary to the legends and therefore

1:30:23you've capped. You're stuck. You've hit

1:30:26the glass ceiling every time. That's it.

1:30:28Can't go any further. And I I had

1:30:32already been out of this industry for

1:30:34several years. And if I was going to

1:30:36come back,

1:30:39let alone come back as the booker, let

1:30:42you know, head of creative, head of

1:30:44content, however you want to designate

1:30:46that role. I'm going to come back. I

1:30:49wasn't coming back to fail. and to book

1:30:54the legends tour to me.

1:30:58There was nothing else I could offer

1:30:59them. They they they had that already

1:31:01down pat. Mazav Zigazun,

1:31:03congratulations. But if you want my

1:31:06input, we're going in a completely

1:31:09different direction and and and it's

1:31:12going to be a different style and and

1:31:14and it's going to separate itself from

1:31:17what WWE is offering or all you're

1:31:19getting is WWE light. Yeah. And then

1:31:22after that, TNA entered some some dark

1:31:25years like the storylines were

1:31:28not great and I'm a huge TNA fan. For so

1:31:31long there was no competition in

1:31:33wrestling. Now there is is is wrestling

1:31:36in a better place now because AEW

1:31:38exists?

1:31:40>> Well, I certainly hope so. I mean, it it

1:31:44short changed

1:31:46the compensation packages for a lot of

1:31:48talent because there was a wolf across

1:31:51the river named Tony Khan

1:31:55that had a billion dollar checkbook that

1:31:58he could afford to pay a lot more money

1:32:02for talent than talent was making back

1:32:05in 2017, 2018, 2019. So, it it certainly

1:32:09changed the compensation

1:32:11for talent and

1:32:15they're on a viable network.

1:32:18They have a style that's different than

1:32:20WWE'se's.

1:32:22They present an alternative,

1:32:24if not a a a a competitive brand.

1:32:29Uh, I look at AEW and I realize the

1:32:33influence that ECW had on that project

1:32:38on on on that product. Um, not just like

1:32:42for example like Moxley is a total ECW

1:32:47Sandman New Jack style performer, but if

1:32:50you look at the AEW style, it's Rob

1:32:53Vanam versus Jerry Lynn from 1999.

1:32:56>> What a match. A AEW is RVD.

1:33:01And if if you were a fan of what RVD and

1:33:04Jerry Lynn were doing in 1999,

1:33:07a lot of what AEW presents today is

1:33:11derived and is influenced by what RVD

1:33:15and Jerry Lynn were doing back then.

1:33:17>> Well, that style went into like the PWG,

1:33:20which then became, you know, I think a

1:33:22basis for what AW is doing now.

1:33:24>> So, am I glad that they're there?

1:33:26Absolutely.

1:33:28Love the fact that there is an

1:33:29alternative for an audience. Uh love the

1:33:32fact that there's something else out

1:33:34there. Love the fact that there's

1:33:36something that captures the imagination

1:33:38of the pro- wrestling slash sports

1:33:42entertainment, if we still use that

1:33:44phrase today, uh audience. I'm I'm glad.

1:33:48I wish there were more promotions out

1:33:49there right now. It It's just going to

1:33:52make us work harder to be better than

1:33:54all of them. And we certainly have the

1:33:56advantage in terms of distribution and

1:34:00in terms of lineage

1:34:03of of this industry. For years, there

1:34:06have been these rumors online that Vince

1:34:08McMahon was funding ECW.

1:34:11What's the story there? And when did

1:34:13this begin? It's like a lot of stories

1:34:15coming out of ECW that they take on a

1:34:17life of their own.

1:34:18>> Yeah.

1:34:19>> And

1:34:22here's the truth of it. There there were

1:34:26three

1:34:29instances of a financial influx from

1:34:32WWE/Vince

1:34:33McMahon into ECW. No more than three.

1:34:36The narrative that ECW was secretly

1:34:40funded by Vince McMahon or ECW Vince

1:34:44McMahon or WWE is complete

1:34:47In 1996, I had a deal with Tommy Boy

1:34:50Records. I had been pirating their music

1:34:52on the air. Like most record labels, I

1:34:55got a cease and desist. I ignored the

1:34:58cease and desist. Then I got a a Dunning

1:35:01letter saying, "Stop this immediately.

1:35:03And by the way, we're preparing to sue

1:35:05you." I went in to meet with them

1:35:07without any lawyers on my side because

1:35:09if I could afford lawyers, I could

1:35:11afford a settlement. Told them, "Hey,

1:35:14here's uh here's the past year of

1:35:16finances for ECW. We're about to go

1:35:18bankrupt. you sue me, I go into an

1:35:20involuntary bankruptcy. Nothing I can do

1:35:22to help you or help myself. However, I

1:35:25do have this platform and a lot of

1:35:27people like our show. So, if you let me

1:35:29use the music and I give you commercial

1:35:32time on our show, cuz I own some of the

1:35:34commercial time uh uh throughout

1:35:37throughout the syndication of ECW, I can

1:35:40promote your music and you can let me

1:35:42use it and we can both win. And I did

1:35:45that with a lot of record labels to the

1:35:47point where

1:35:49in 2000, the biggest behind thescenes

1:35:53name in music, Jimmy Iave, who was the

1:35:56co-chairman of Universal Music Group at

1:35:59the time with Doug Morris, which was uh

1:36:01Geffen & Intercope, all under uh

1:36:04Universal Music, became the final

1:36:07investor in ECW before we went out of

1:36:11business. In terms of WWE, I had to deal

1:36:15with Tommy Boy Records for $1,000 a week

1:36:18for them uh to supply us with Whoop,

1:36:21there it is for Too Cold Scorpio.

1:36:24Every time he came out to the ring,

1:36:26you'd see that MTV style lower third,

1:36:28Whoop, there it is by this group, uh

1:36:30Tommy Boy Records. And then the very

1:36:33next commercial break in first position,

1:36:35we would either thank Tommy Boy Records

1:36:37while playing Tommy Boy music or we

1:36:40would have a commercial for the newest

1:36:43release by Tommy Boy music. $1,000 a

1:36:46week. Vince wanted Doug Furnace, Phil

1:36:48Lefon, Terry Gordy to be the

1:36:50executioner, and he wanted two Cold

1:36:52Scorpio to come to WWE as Flash Funk. I

1:36:55had no problem with any of those talents

1:36:57going to WWE. My problem was in losing

1:36:59Too Cold Scorpio. I could lose the

1:37:01thousand dollars a week from Tommy Boy

1:37:03Records. Vince said, I'll make that

1:37:05thousand dollars up to you. Deal. He

1:37:07didn't. His words, don't want to be like

1:37:09WCW. Just poach your talent and give you

1:37:11nothing back for it. Want to support the

1:37:13cause? Great. Need a,000 bucks a week.

1:37:15Okay, great. And if Tommy Boyd keeps

1:37:17paying you, you keep that extra grand.

1:37:20Great. The first check came was in my

1:37:21name. I sent it back.

1:37:24Please make it out to the parent company

1:37:26of ECW. HHC.

1:37:29We got $1,000 a week from November 1996

1:37:33till we filed for bankruptcy in March

1:37:362001.

1:37:37That was the $1,000 a week. In 2000,

1:37:41we got a $500,000 loan in July. The

1:37:46reason behind that was

1:37:49we had gone on TN in September 1999.

1:37:52Unbeknownst to us, TNN, which was the

1:37:54Nashville network, was becoming the

1:37:56national network. But what we didn't

1:37:58know was that they had already been sold

1:38:00to Viacom,

1:38:02which was the parent company of CBS.

1:38:05Viacom had already cut a deal behind the

1:38:07scenes with WWE for WWE to leave USA

1:38:11Network, which was then owned by Barry

1:38:13Diller, and go to TNN the next

1:38:15September, which became a big federal

1:38:17court case in Delaware.

1:38:20So, we were the guinea pig for TNN to be

1:38:25on the air and see how professional

1:38:26wrestling translates on their network,

1:38:29which was undergoing a massive overhaul.

1:38:32I knew 3 weeks into that agreement, this

1:38:34is this is going to kill us because all

1:38:36of our commercials, which was supposed

1:38:38to be spread out throughout the week,

1:38:39would air on our own show. So, I'm

1:38:43watching the show on Friday nights and

1:38:45there's our commercials instead of being

1:38:46on Monday nights, Tuesday nights,

1:38:48Wednesday nights, Thursday nights,

1:38:49Saturday nights, Sunday nights. And I

1:38:51called the president of of TNN. I said,

1:38:54"Why are our commercials airing on our

1:38:57own show?" And he said, "It's the target

1:39:01demographic."

1:39:04In other words, you. You're out of

1:39:05business and we're using you and you

1:39:08don't know why yet.

1:39:10So, at some point it became known that

1:39:14WWE was trying to move to TNN.

1:39:18And any analysis of the situation was

1:39:22TNN was the albatross around our neck

1:39:25that was going to sink us. And TNN was a

1:39:29gold mine for WWE

1:39:32because the licensing money for

1:39:35wrestling on television wasn't that

1:39:37great back then. And the tens and tens

1:39:40of millions of dollars that TNN was

1:39:43willing to give WWE was unheard of at

1:39:45the time. It was a huge deal. And at

1:39:49some point in putting us out of

1:39:51business, the bankruptcy trustee was

1:39:53going to end up suing TNN and WWE for

1:39:57having this deal while we were on the

1:40:00air with TNN. Whether it's torsious

1:40:03interference or whatever the claims

1:40:05would have been, it would have been

1:40:06another federal lawsuit against a

1:40:08publicly traded company in WWE.

1:40:14Back in 2000, there was an executive at

1:40:17In Demand whose name I will call out

1:40:19publicly named Dan York.

1:40:22And Dan York saw the fact that we were

1:40:24fighting for our life in terms of our

1:40:26network distribution on TN. Knowing that

1:40:30if we lose network distribution, the

1:40:33odds of us staying alive were now

1:40:35slimming down.

1:40:38Our pay-per-view money slowed down as

1:40:42well.

1:40:44So instead of getting all this money 60

1:40:47days, 90 days after the pay-per-view, we

1:40:49got a little bit 60 days and 90 days

1:40:51after the pay-per-view. And we even got

1:40:54a little less 120 days and 180 days. We

1:40:57supposed to be completely paid out by

1:40:59180 days. We weren't paid out 50% by 180

1:41:03days. So, we weren't getting our money

1:41:05out of out of in demand because they

1:41:08figured they could deal with the

1:41:09bankruptcy trustee instead of having to

1:41:12pay us. Now, they did the same thing to

1:41:14Bob Arum. Bob Arum had the resources to

1:41:17sue and wait a few years to get that

1:41:19settled. We didn't have the time. The

1:41:22clock was ticking on us. We booked a

1:41:25show at the Olympic Auditorium in Los

1:41:27Angeles, Heatwave 2000.

1:41:296,000 however many tickets. We sold out

1:41:32within the first hour and I didn't have

1:41:35enough money to put on the show.

1:41:39Our pay-per-views were successful enough

1:41:40that we did three the first year, 1997,

1:41:43four in 1998, six in 1999, and they

1:41:47ordered seven in 2000. It's $250,000

1:41:52just for the satellite truck and the

1:41:53satellite feed. So, the production on a

1:41:56pay-per-view show back then was at least

1:41:57$250,000 and all in close to a half a

1:42:00million dollars.

1:42:02and we didn't have it. We we couldn't

1:42:04clear payroll at the time. How am I

1:42:06going to put on that show? Meanwhile,

1:42:07I've sold 6,000 tickets in Los Angeles,

1:42:10but I can't get that money till after

1:42:11the show cuz Ticket Master holds it on

1:42:13till the show is over. Holds on to it

1:42:15till the show is over.

1:42:18I had a meeting with Vince. I looked at

1:42:20him straight in the face and I said, "I

1:42:22can't put on this show.

1:42:24If I can't put on the show, I'm going to

1:42:26be in breach of my contract within

1:42:28Demand. They're going to pull my

1:42:30pay-per-views, which means then we're

1:42:32dead in the water. I'll end up in

1:42:34bankruptcy and you'll be dealing with a

1:42:37trustee

1:42:38or you can loan me the money.

1:42:40>> And you had a good relationship with

1:42:41Vince at the time.

1:42:44>> Excellent. I had a great relationship

1:42:46with Vince until I went to work for him.

1:42:48[clears throat]

1:42:48>> Then he had me and that's when we

1:42:51started butting heads. And I and and I I

1:42:53can't complain

1:42:55ultimately wi-i with my run with Vince

1:42:58McMahon,

1:43:00but at first, wow, was it a difference

1:43:03in working for him instead of being on

1:43:06the outside and working with him.

1:43:08>> Um

1:43:11went to Vince, explained it to him, he

1:43:13looked, he said, "Well, you need a half

1:43:14million dollars." Yes. And to his credit

1:43:18for his shareholders, he said, "Well,

1:43:21I'll need a UCCc1." Which means he

1:43:23stands in front of all the other

1:43:24creditors, which means if we were to go

1:43:27into bankruptcy, the trustee would not

1:43:29have the ability to make the claim

1:43:32against Vince McMahon, WWE, TN, etc.,

1:43:36etc., because I've signed that away with

1:43:38the loan.

1:43:41So, he settles a case before it's ever

1:43:43filed for half a million dollars. that a

1:43:46half a million dollars bought us another

1:43:48seven months of being alive because we

1:43:50weren't going to survive that July

1:43:52without that half million dollars.

1:43:55So he we he did a secured priority loan

1:43:58for half a million dollars. At the very

1:44:01end Christmas week 2000

1:44:05uh when everything was dire. We had lost

1:44:08TNN.

1:44:09The money is now

1:44:12trickling in from in demand. Now in

1:44:15demand wants eight pay-per-views in

1:44:172001. We don't even have national tele.

1:44:23WWE says let's look at the books because

1:44:25Shane wanted to buy it.

1:44:28So Shane wanted to buy ECW and run it on

1:44:30its own. Vince said it's easier just to

1:44:34let it go into bankruptcy and we get

1:44:36Heymon.

1:44:38Shane still pushed and pushed and

1:44:40pushed. So for the accountants to take a

1:44:44look at all the books and to buy us the

1:44:46time not to be pulled into an

1:44:48involuntary bankruptcy by somebody,

1:44:51we will own $83,500

1:44:55to make payroll that week

1:44:58so that we can survive the week for WWE

1:45:02to look at the books. And those were the

1:45:05three payments. the thousand per week,

1:45:08every week through bankruptcy, the half

1:45:11million dollar loan in July 2000, the

1:45:14$83,000, I think it was 83 or 88,500

1:45:18in December 2000. There was no other

1:45:21payments made by WWE. There was no other

1:45:23secret funding. And this is all a matter

1:45:26of public record because it was a

1:45:29publicly traded company by this time.

1:45:31And it's all there and it's all in the

1:45:33bankruptcy papers. But never let the

1:45:36truth get in the way of a good story.

1:45:38>> Why didn't Shane end up buying ECW?

1:45:41>> Vince found it more valuable to have me

1:45:44in the As Vince would say, "I'd rather

1:45:46have Paul Heymon in the castle pissing

1:45:48out than out of the castle pissing in."

1:45:53It's the same move that that Apple made

1:45:56in buying Beats. Apple didn't need

1:45:59Beats. Apple wanted Jimmy Ivy.

1:46:03Vince McMahon was tired of me being out

1:46:05on my own, being an independent, doing

1:46:08my own thing. Decided we need Haymon and

1:46:12wanted Haymon involved. And to get

1:46:15Haymon, you had to at least secure the

1:46:18assets of ECW or promise the bankruptcy

1:46:22court to secure the assets of ECW so

1:46:25that there's a curator for our library.

1:46:28And along with that

1:46:31comes Pauline.

1:46:32>> I grew up as a huge ECW fan. I was so

1:46:35used to seeing you with a ponytail.

1:46:38What's the story behind getting rid of

1:46:40your ponytail?

1:46:41>> I

1:46:43I don't know the story. Well, the story

1:46:44behind the pony cutting the ponytail was

1:46:47um

1:46:49when we did the Hell in a Cell with CM

1:46:52Punk and Ryback.

1:46:53>> Okay. And I was on top of the cell and

1:46:58Punk finally beat Ryback came up and

1:47:01beat me to death with a kendo stick and

1:47:03then hit me with a GTS on the top of the

1:47:06cell. I wanted Punk to cut my ponytail

1:47:09as the trophy to end the program. And at

1:47:13the last minute, Vince didn't want to do

1:47:14that. Just wanted GTS stand over me.

1:47:18Best in the world. And that's how we end

1:47:20it. And

1:47:25was going to take a few weeks off, come

1:47:27back at the end of the year with Brock

1:47:29and start the push towards Wrestlemania

1:47:3230, which was Brock versus Undertaker.

1:47:36And at some point, I just called Vince

1:47:38one day and said,

1:47:40"We're starting something new. We're

1:47:42starting something fresh. We're done

1:47:44with the CM Punk program. I'm cutting

1:47:46this ponytail off." And of course, Vince

1:47:49being Vince just said, "Oh, god damn.

1:47:51It's about time you did that. Jesus

1:47:52Christ. I had that ponytail for years.

1:47:54Oh, I wanted to cut it off. I wanted CM

1:47:55Punk to cut it off.

1:47:56>> But that would have been brilliant.

1:47:57>> I

1:47:59You should CUT IT OFF. OKAY. CAN I DO IT

1:48:01ON TELEVISION? NO. Just show up without

1:48:03it. I I don't know. It's It's uh

1:48:06[laughter]

1:48:09The ponytail took on a life of its own.

1:48:11>> Yes. And it just became, you know, a

1:48:14rebellious statement in the 1990s and

1:48:17then I just never got rid of it. Even

1:48:19long past the time that I should, you

1:48:21know, I look at pictures now, oh god, I

1:48:23I cringe looking at it, you know, and

1:48:25and my my kids point at it and laugh at

1:48:27me about it, not with me, but at me

1:48:29like, what what were you thinking? I

1:48:32wasn't, you know, it just it just

1:48:34becomes it becomes part of you. You

1:48:36know, even your flaws become such part

1:48:39of your personality that you can't

1:48:40imagine yourself without it. And then

1:48:42finally, I decided not only to imagine

1:48:44myself without it, I I wanted to live

1:48:46life without it as well. We're so used

1:48:48to seeing you wearing a suit. But you

1:48:51posted this photo wearing a black

1:48:54t-shirt and people lost their mind. Did

1:48:57you realize the effect this would have

1:48:58on people?

1:48:59>> Well, I what happened was I I

1:49:03I don't remember what city I was in. was

1:49:05somewhere and I landed and I called to

1:49:08see where I could find a decent meal and

1:49:11there was a Morton that was still open

1:49:13and they had a back room. So I I I took

1:49:15the back room at the Mortons and I just

1:49:18come off a of a plane and I I I was

1:49:20wearing a black t-shirt and the guy that

1:49:23the manager of of the Mortons, we took a

1:49:25picture together and then he posted it

1:49:29and it started to pick up steam and I

1:49:31was like, "Oh, okay. Well, I might as

1:49:33well get the algorithm for it as well.

1:49:35So, I posted it, too, simply because it

1:49:38was going viral anyway. I didn't want to

1:49:41run away from it.

1:49:41>> It's like seeing Superman without a

1:49:43cape, you know?

1:49:45>> I I I I I don't know. I I I I try to do

1:49:49everything to uh to to uh enhance my

1:49:53presentation, and it takes a lot when

1:49:55you look like me. So, it's uh

1:49:57>> like people think you like go to the gym

1:49:59wearing a suit. Well, I do. [laughter]

1:50:03People think you sleep wearing a suit.

1:50:04>> And and and I do. We we we've we've shot

1:50:07some interesting opens for for the the

1:50:10the Haymon Hustle video series on our

1:50:13YouTube channel. uh where I'm I'm in the

1:50:15shower and and uh like we we were at the

1:50:18uh the MGM mansion in Las Vegas and and

1:50:21you're walking through this whole

1:50:22mansion with has a swimming pool in the

1:50:24room and and and and and and the virtual

1:50:27golf and and these you know and then

1:50:29nine dining rooms and finally you make

1:50:31it and and you hear me in the shower

1:50:33singing badly uh probably John Cena's

1:50:36theme song you [laughter] know

1:50:40and and and you know and you come in

1:50:42[laughter] and and I'm wearing the suit,

1:50:44you know, with the soap and and the

1:50:45shower going, you know, going

1:50:47[clears throat] down a punt on me. Uh we

1:50:49we we we we shot uh we shot one open for

1:50:52the Haymon Hustle where um I'm in a

1:50:55tanning bed with with, you know, with

1:50:56the goggles on in a full suit,

1:50:58[laughter]

1:51:00you know, and and and and and someone

1:51:01says, uh, you wear a suit in a tanning

1:51:04bed. Well, I wear a suit on television.

1:51:06I don't need to tan from from the from

1:51:07the chin down. Um, so yeah, [laughter]

1:51:10it's again it becomes part of the image,

1:51:13becomes part of the persona. It becomes

1:51:16how people uh

1:51:20relate to you and how they envision you.

1:51:23>> And seeing me outside of wearing a suit,

1:51:26Yeah. becomes

1:51:28uh

1:51:30a shocking optic to people that they're

1:51:33just not used to and for some reason

1:51:37deem it to be newsworthy.

1:51:41>> You had an exceptional tan on TV for a

1:51:44few weeks. [laughter]

1:51:46What's the story behind this deep tan? I

1:51:49I was in I was competing with Bronn

1:51:51Breaker as to who could look more

1:51:53ridiculous with with with with with the

1:51:55with the uh self-tanner that we were

1:51:58employing. Actually, the time that I did

1:52:01that uh I needed it because I looked god

1:52:07awful at the time. Here's something I've

1:52:10never revealed publicly. Um and and it

1:52:12just goes back to how you approach this

1:52:15industry or performing in and of itself.

1:52:18When And I know the exact episode that

1:52:21you're talking about because it's it's

1:52:23it's a meme now. Yes. Where I I crashed

1:52:26out when I was talking to Jay Uso

1:52:28because Jay Uso said I screwed over the

1:52:30tribal chief. And it's like no, it's

1:52:32always my fault. It's always me me. But

1:52:35not this time. I'm I'm not the one. I'm

1:52:37not the betrayer. I'm not the double

1:52:39crosser. And that crash out was very

1:52:43real to me because at the time I always

1:52:47get sick right after Wrestlemania cuz I

1:52:49wear myself so down going into

1:52:50Wrestlemania. So I always get sick. I I

1:52:53always end up with a sinus infection or

1:52:56bronchitis or or something an an inner

1:52:59ear infection. Something goes wrong with

1:53:01me the week or two after Wrestlemania

1:53:04every single year. And

1:53:07at that particular moment I I got a

1:53:10kidney stone.

1:53:12There were several kidney stones. And in

1:53:15passing the kidney stone, it was so

1:53:18sharp

1:53:20it cut my urinary tract. Oh. And

1:53:26besides cutting my urinary tract, it

1:53:28left my urinary tract in a position to

1:53:30where I could catch an infection. And

1:53:34man, the last place you want an

1:53:36infection like that

1:53:38>> Yeah.

1:53:39>> is in the urinary tract cuz it's tough

1:53:42to get rid of. So now the urinary tract

1:53:45uh inflames, presses up against the

1:53:49prostate, irritates the prostate. The

1:53:52infection now starts to spread and now

1:53:56the infection is in the urinary tract

1:54:00and in the prostate and it's spreading

1:54:02through my system. I end up in the

1:54:05hospital. Uh shout out to White Plains

1:54:08Hospital because wow, they took

1:54:10wonderful care of me. I end up in the

1:54:12hospital and all I'm asking is, you

1:54:15know, I have to be out of here by Sunday

1:54:16night because I have to be on the jet on

1:54:18Monday to go to RAW. And they're looking

1:54:20at me saying,

1:54:23you have a very serious infection. I

1:54:25mean, they're bringing in people from

1:54:26like infectious diseases because I'm

1:54:29allergic to penicellin, number one. And

1:54:32number two, any antibiotics that they're

1:54:35giving me, none of them are working. The

1:54:37infection is getting worse. My

1:54:39temperature is rising. and the effects

1:54:42of the infection are taking hold, but I

1:54:46won't miss work. So, I checked myself

1:54:49out that Monday morning.

1:54:53I chartered a jet on my own to Raw,

1:54:57did Raw, flew on the WWE jet back to

1:55:01White Plains, checked myself back into

1:55:03the hospital, didn't tell anybody.

1:55:06Meanwhile, when I did that scene and for

1:55:10a couple weeks afterwards, when I would

1:55:12jet myself to RAW,

1:55:15take the jet back home, check myself

1:55:17back into the hospital.

1:55:19When I did that scene, I had a catheter

1:55:22and a pickline

1:55:25while you're on TV.

1:55:26>> Yeah. I don't know if you've ever had a

1:55:29catheter before. It's