„Czułam się inna, nie umiałam się dostosować”. Paulina Gałązka o ADHD i uczeniu się siebie na nowo

0:00Since I was a child , I felt different .

0:04What motivated me to check for the

0:06spectrum was feedback from my husband

0:08that I can be too blunt , too cruel . At

0:14the very first visit , the diagnostician

0:16said , " Oh , yes , I see you have great

0:18masking abilities here , it will be hard

0:20for us , but I'm quite convinced the

0:22diagnosis will be that you are on the

0:24autism spectrum . " It’s better to keep

0:29the same friends for years , because

0:30even if someone new wants to be friends

0:32with me , I often just end up

0:34disappointing them . Cleaning ,

0:38organizing my life , shopping — these

0:40are things I absolutely hate . It was

0:43also hard for me to talk about being

0:45from a poor family , convincing my mom

0:47to show herself . You know , this inner

0:51critic , raised in childhood and very

0:53well watered — it will simply always be

0:55there , so I am also learning to accept

0:57it . Gośćka Serafin , I bid you all a

1:01very warm welcome . Today in the tender

1:03mirror , actress Paulina Gałązka . Hey .

1:06Hi Gosia , thank you for the invitation .

1:09>> Did you think for a long time that you

1:10were weird , different ? How did you

1:13think about yourself before you got the

1:14autism spectrum diagnosis ?

1:18>> Yes , I definitely felt different since

1:20I was a child and felt that I perceived

1:22the world differently than others . I

1:26mean , it wasn't until a certain point

1:27that I understood it , that it was this

1:29way of perceiving the world — that

1:31others don't see what I see , and I

1:33don't see what they do . Because I have

1:38the impression that when we are born ,

1:40we think we all see the same things ,

1:42and only through growing up do we learn

1:43that this perspective can be different .

1:50And so it was always like that , that I

1:52felt I perceived the world differently ,

1:54but also that I couldn't fit into the

1:56patterns that were expected of me . I

2:03couldn't be the kind of girl that was

2:05considered the ideal in my family . So I

2:11was also perceived as a rude person ,

2:13even though I didn't want to be rude ,

2:15because I asked a lot , I wanted to know

2:17a lot , I was everywhere , I talked way

2:19too much , and I just wanted to learn

2:21everything in detail from adults . Were

2:25you silenced ? In the sense that there

2:28were many of these questions , too many ,

2:30because a child asks a lot of questions

2:31— and they ask a lot of incredibly

2:33sharp and difficult ones , like why is

2:35the grass green ? I think that is a mega

2:37difficult question . for adults to

2:39explain . Chlorophyll .

2:40>> Exactly . But try explaining that to a

2:42child . And yet that’s such a classic

2:44question , right ? Why is the grass green

2:45or why are the stairs moving ? How does

2:47it work ,

2:47>> for example ? Yes .

2:49>> So you kept asking , digging , digging ,

2:51digging , so that someone would finally

2:53explain to you what this was all about .

2:55>> Yes , yes , I dug deep . I think it was

2:58more troublesome that I would ask about

3:00people , human behavior , and why someone

3:02is the way they are , why this , why mom

3:04is mad at aunt , and so on . Well , and it

3:08was just very annoying , because I was

3:13clearly touching on interpersonal

3:14things , and those interpersonal

3:16relationships always interested me the

3:18most . I think that's also why I became

3:22an actress , because people have simply

3:23always fascinated me . Actually , the

3:27only person who tolerated those traits

3:29of mine , which I now know are related

3:31to neurodiversity — to the fact that I

3:33have the spectrum , I'm on the autism

3:40spectrum and have ADHD — those traits

3:42... I feel that the only person who

3:44tolerated them was my grandfather , who

3:46also showed autistic traits . It is 70 %

3:50hereditary . Neurodiversity is

3:53hereditary .

3:55>> So , I think that's why he liked me and

3:57valued my talkativeness and my desire

3:59to find things out .

4:01>> And he put up with your questions .

4:04>> He loved answering those questions . He

4:08just loved the things he was interested

4:09in . Uh , so I think he was happy to have

4:13such a little listener . You said that

4:17you perceived the world differently

4:18than everyone around you . How did that

4:21manifest ? How would you describe this

4:24different perception of the world and

4:25also of phenomena and these

4:26interpersonal relationships ? Was

4:30something strange or incomprehensible

4:32to you , or did you live a bit in

4:34another world , more in a world of

4:35fantasy , because that can also often be

4:37on the spectrum , in one's own told

4:39stories , how does it function ? Very

4:42much so . No , I definitely lived a lot

4:45in a world of fantasy and stories . When

4:48I watched a movie or a cartoon , I would

4:50just live inside it terribly afterwards

4:52. I remember when I read The Hobbit , I

4:56cried that I couldn't live in that

4:57world . Then I was fascinated by the

5:01culture of ancient Sumer when I was in

5:03elementary school .

5:05>> Did you get a doctorate in that ? Yes .

5:07>> So I also cried that I couldn't live in

5:09ancient Sumer , so yes . Yes , I really ,

5:13really went into those stories , telling

5:15those stories and living through those

5:17stories . But also , damn , I wanted to

5:22say something , and you see , my ADHD

5:24mind has already drifted off , switched

5:26now

5:27>> switched , yes , it's already in

5:29cuneiform now , but I wanted to say

5:30something interesting . Oh well .

5:32>> If you remember it , then

5:34>> then I'll say it . We won't edit it out ,

5:36but if you remember it , definitely go

5:38back to it . Just don't think about

5:40trying to remember it right now ,

5:41>> okay ? Because then , damn , it's

5:43impossible to remember .

5:44>> That's how it is , it's impossible .

5:46There were some events that I remember .

5:51Małgosia , I wanted to say that , damn ,

5:53what was so interesting to me as a

5:55child — I think I was 5 when I had this

5:57revelation — is that I had the

5:59impression people live on two levels .

6:05One is the level of actual thoughts and

6:07feelings , which we all know about . We

6:13feel there is a situation , like an

6:15elephant in the room , and there is a

6:17second level of verbal communication ;

6:19adults choose not to have these

6:20together , they just keep them separate .

6:25>> Well , actually , I guess that's how it

6:27is . Yes , as I think about adults now ,

6:33it seems to me — that’s how I feel ,

6:35how I think now — it comes more from

6:37this lack of awareness that emotions

6:39exist , what those emotions are , and

6:41from being raised in a generation that

6:43says

6:47>> yes

6:49>> in relation to emotions , not to

6:51disconnect , that they are one .

6:53>> Yes . And from the socialization that

6:55you have to play this social game . And

6:58you , as a five-year-old , felt that

7:00these were two separate worlds ? Yes .

7:04And I think I already felt then that it

7:05was a social game , and I didn't

7:07understand why these adults were

7:08playing this social game . Why , why

7:12can't we just combine these two worlds ?

7:19Were there any events you remember or

7:21things that stuck in your memory that

7:23influenced your self-esteem or how you

7:25perceived yourself , because if you

7:26weren't diagnosed and only got your

7:28diagnosis in adulthood , then both ADHD

7:30traits and spectrum traits must have

7:32caused you difficulties in functioning .

7:39Absolutely . Of course , throughout this

7:44late diagnosis , it’s still hitting me

7:46what these traits are and what they

7:47stem from . So it is a process spread

7:52out over time . I also have to say ,

7:56Małgosia , that I am very glad I am

7:57talking to you specifically , that two

7:59neurodivergent women are talking to

8:01each other . about how it is , you know ,

8:04how it is to live .

8:06>> It's a great comfort , um ,

8:08>> that someone understands ,

8:10>> yes , that there is someone who

8:11struggles with the same thing , um , is ,

8:14you know , in a similar world , with that

8:16, um , similar brain . It’s a great

8:20comfort , so I’m happy that I’m

8:21having this conversation with you

8:23specifically . I am happy too . That's

8:28why I'm asking you about those

8:30difficult events , about how functioning

8:32with such traits in a neurotypical

8:33world was for you . How it affected you ,

8:39because I also only started analyzing

8:41it in adulthood . Back then , I just

8:43survived

8:44>> exactly

8:45>> at a huge cost , and only later did I

8:47start analyzing what was actually

8:48happening ,

8:49>> and what was happening with you ?

8:51>> Gosh , I have so many questions for you .

9:01Uh , you know , I definitely remember a

9:03turning point , uh , it was , uh , during

9:05religion class , because I always felt

9:06that something was wrong with me , and

9:08my older sister , who was always tasked

9:10with the responsibility for me because

9:12she was only a year older , would always

9:14tell me — we were raised in such a way

9:16that if I did something wrong , it was

9:17always my sister who was asked how she

9:19could have let it happen — and my

9:21sister would always tell me that there

9:23was something wrong with me . So I also

9:32felt that something was wrong with me .

9:35I was a very emotional child . Uh , my

9:38mom definitely didn't understand those

9:40emotions of mine , and , and the changes

9:42in those emotions , which were very

9:44large , uh , which is , for example , great

9:46for being an actor , having such access

9:48to emotions . But as a child , well , I

9:52just created a big problem for my mom ,

9:55as well as for her family , uh , because

9:57it was so unrecognizable , and the fact

9:59that such a young girl , who is curious ,

10:01confident , does not follow these social

10:03conventions . So growing up with such a

10:07feeling that something was wrong with

10:09me , especially in a very religious

10:11family , I had this feeling , geez , what

10:13could I do not to be " not okay " ? And I

10:17remember that in middle school , uh , I

10:19went to a middle school that was , let's

10:22say colloquially , very " thuggish . " It

10:25was a middle school that , in the years

10:27I attended , was the worst middle school

10:29in Warsaw , most frequently visited by

10:31the city guards and the police . And in

10:36that middle school , the religion

10:38teacher tried to encourage us to work

10:40on ourselves and told us about Thomas

10:41Jefferson's method of making columns

10:43and working . I just happen to remember

10:47that it was that he was probably

10:49working on , there was something like

10:50four divine virtues .

10:52>> No , don't ask . I , well , because I don't

10:55happen to have a PhD .

10:56>> And what do you have one in ?

10:58>> Oh , in many other things , traumas and

11:00so on and so forth .

11:01>> Great .

11:01>> Well , I don't know if it's great . I

11:03guess it's better not to know , right ?

11:05But also , when I get interested in

11:06something , well , it's just like the

11:08National Library is almost coming into

11:10play . I have to find out to the very

11:11bottom .

11:12>> But I don't actually know anything

11:14about those four virtues ,

11:15>> or so I think . I might be wrong , maybe

11:17there are three ,

11:18>> maybe I made it up . Yeah .

11:20>> Yes , maybe my mind just made it up .

11:22Anyway , that he would make , you know ,

11:24those little columns , and every day he

11:27would write down pluses , minuses , a

11:28reward if it was a good day . I decided

11:32to start doing something like that at

11:34the age of 13 , and I did , and it gave

11:36me a huge amount of satisfaction . And I

11:44think that was already a manifestation

11:46of my autism , which needed to have

11:48things noted down in a table , defined ,

11:50and this work on myself brought me

11:51great satisfaction and I felt it also

11:53brought me some benefits . Then , when my

12:02dad passed away , also in middle school ,

12:04in the final year , I was referred to ...

12:06well , I had these depressive symptoms ,

12:09really , I think there ... well , it was

12:14like a hidden depression . And I guess

12:16they were worried at school . And my

12:18homeroom teacher — it was a teacher ,

12:21excuse me , Mr. Nowaczyk — referred me

12:23to a pedagogical and psychological

12:25counseling center in Warsaw's Praga

12:27district . And it was great because I

12:31got a year of therapy there for free .

12:35Now I know it was therapy , but back

12:37then we called them meetings with a

12:38psychotherapist . And damn , those were

12:42such fantastic meetings . She taught me

12:46so much , I got so many tools from her ,

12:48that I just started to get very

12:50interested in psychology back then . And

12:57the magazine * Zwierciadło * also really

12:58influenced my love for psychology and

13:00that desire to work on myself , and the

13:02realization that you can learn to cope

13:03with the feeling that you just aren't

13:05managing . At what point did you feel

13:11like you weren't coping with the world

13:13around you in adulthood , when that

13:14responsibility appeared , or was it

13:16already during your educational stages ?

13:21I’m asking , you know , in the context

13:23of an ASD and ADHD diagnosis , because

13:25you go through those stages , how

13:27specific symptoms manifested at

13:29different stages of development ,

13:31education , and later in your career .

13:37Because I think that in childhood , when

13:39— especially when I went to school and

13:41was in school — I loved school , I loved

13:43learning , I loved the rules , how

13:45everything was so structured there . But

13:53all the time in my family life I felt

13:55that both in my small , nuclear family

13:57and in the larger one with aunts ,

13:58uncles , and grandparents , I was always

14:00seen as the black sheep , as naughty ,

14:02and I completely didn't understand this

14:04duality and didn't know what to do to

14:06be the way I was supposed to be .

14:11>> And were you well-behaved at school ? I

14:12mean , did you have exemplary behavior ,

14:14were you a good student ?

14:15>> Absolutely , absolutely .

14:19>> And did you behave differently than at

14:20home because there were rules there , or

14:22where did this difference come from ,

14:24that the family thought you were

14:25naughty while at school you did things

14:27that resulted in exemplary behavior ? I

14:31think , Małgosia , that you're right ,

14:33that there were simply specific rules

14:35there , whereas in the family , those

14:37specific rules didn't exist . That's

14:39true indeed . Do rules help you in life ,

14:44or do they restrict you , considering

14:46that for people on the spectrum they

14:48can often be unjustified ,

14:50incomprehensible , and illogical ,

14:51because many social rules are so

14:53strange ?

14:56>> Yes . Did you manage to adapt to them ,

14:59or did you rebel your whole life ?

15:03>> I have the impression that I love rules

15:05, except for visits to government

15:06offices , of course , because I

15:08completely don't understand that , and

15:10visits to clinics and so on , I don't

15:11understand those rules , but for example

15:13— I don't know if you feel this way —

15:15but I , for instance , get terribly

15:17stressed whenever I go to a clinic or

15:19see a doctor . Should I knock , or should

15:22I wait ? Well , that's not fully

15:25established .

15:27>> It's terrible . It costs me so much that

15:30I just lose the desire to go .

15:32>> But have you found a way to deal with

15:33it ? I don't know , do you ask at the

15:35reception what you should do , or do you

15:37ask other people ?

15:37>> I ask . I ask at the reception or I ask

15:40people , but it's worse when there's

15:41nobody there . Or worse , when the person

15:43at the reception seems like someone not

15:45entirely aware

15:48>> and you feel you can't trust the

15:49information they give , then it's simply

15:51a nightmare for me .

15:53>> But has it happened that you knocked

15:55and , for example , heard that it's not

15:56time yet and everything ?

15:57>> And has it happened , for example , the

15:59other way around , that you are sitting

16:01and waiting and the doctor comes out

16:02and says : " Why didn't you knock ? "

16:04>> You could go crazy . Exactly , you don't

16:06know how , you don't know what's

16:07mandatory .

16:08>> Good heavens , really .

16:10>> Yes . So the waiting room can be

16:12something so strange .

16:14>> Yeah .

16:15>> And in government offices , what is it

16:17that makes that a world where you can't

16:19cope ?

16:20>> Jesus Mary , it's a terrible world ,

16:22those offices . I mean , no , it's better

16:26now when I go and say , you know , right

16:28when I approach the window , that I'm a

16:30person on the autism spectrum and I

16:32need I need special assistance with

16:37filling out the form , then it's better .

16:40But the number of times I've been

16:42brought to tears by the ladies at the

16:44windows is just terribly high . And when

16:48I cried , they would get even more

16:49annoyed with me , because they felt —

16:51they probably thought I was playing the

16:53victim , while I just felt that I , well ,

16:54I just didn't understand what was

16:56happening .

16:57>> And what was it about those little

16:59boxes that tripped you up ?

17:01>> On filling out boxes incorrectly , in

17:03the sense of entering information wrong

17:05and so on . Well , in fact , that probably

17:08happens to neurotypical people quite

17:10often , too , because well , because the

17:14print is always tiny , there are always

17:16weird questions , but do you get the

17:18feeling that an autistic person

17:19experiences it more intensely , feeling

17:21it with every cell in their body ?

17:25>> Gosh , I don't know . I honestly don't

17:27know . You can definitely have a smaller

17:33, at least that’s how I feel , a sense

17:34of shyness or a lack of knowledge about

17:36whether I can even ask the clerk . Now I

17:48know I can , thanks to the diagnosis ,

17:49but that feeling that maybe I should be

17:51responsible and know how to do it often

17:53meant that I didn't ask and filled it

17:55out wrong on my own , which then caused

17:56an avalanche of errors on the form and

17:58the need to fill it out again . And plus

18:06, with ADHD , well , especially when

18:11you're nervous , you have illegible

18:12handwriting and so on . So , uh

18:20>> have these situations in offices and in

18:22this adult life and adult matters ever

18:24led you to something beyond , well ,

18:26let's say , just discomfort , because

18:28discomfort is one thing , but if there's

18:30a lot of it and it's all unpleasant

18:31because another person

18:38>> is harsh or unkind to you , you start to

18:40suffer and be afraid of taking care of

18:42things . Oh , it's a nightmare . But you

18:46know , Małgosia , it’s like this — my

18:48husband , who is Norwegian ,

18:52>> speaks good Polish , of course , because

18:54he's lived here for many years , but

18:56when we go , it's better if we go

18:58together and he starts handling things

19:00for me instead of me . I just always

19:04have the impression that , because a lot

19:06of women work in those offices , a man

19:08gets a little bit of a free pass there ,

19:13is welcomed more warmly . But I also had

19:19this situation , gosh , a really bizarre

19:21one with my mom , because my mom also

19:23shows traits of being on the spectrum ,

19:25and she wasn't able to file for her

19:27pension on her own . She was that afraid

19:33. I’m also afraid of government

19:36offices , it's just that I have these

19:38tools from psychotherapy now , and I

19:39know how to prepare myself for that

19:41horror . She doesn't know that , because

19:46she's never been to psychotherapy . So I

19:49really had to motivate my mom and

19:50convince her to take advantage of the

19:52fact that she's already of retirement

19:54age ,

19:54>> and that we need to get it done ,

19:57>> and that she's entitled to this pension

19:59, and it’s just a waste of money that

20:00she's not on it yet . So I went to the

20:04office with her . One visit went fine ,

20:09the second one was a bit tougher , but

20:11it so happened that someone from the

20:13tax office called me — an inspector who

20:15was handling mom's case — and

20:16instructed me on what we did wrong ,

20:18what we need to do , and how to overcome

20:20the difficulty of contacting mom's

20:22employer to get what we needed . And I

20:27had all that knowledge . I got the whole

20:29set of instructions , wrote them down ,

20:31and went with mom to the counter on our

20:33next visit to the Social Insurance

20:34Institution . And the lady who happened

20:37to be at the counter , was very , I don't

20:42know , she thought I was talking

20:44nonsense and that the things I was

20:46saying were unfounded , and she kept

20:47telling me no . So I said : " But the lady

20:51who called me , the senior inspector

20:53from such-and-such number , she said yes

20:55, " but no , because she kept insisting

20:57here and there , and that lady , damn ,

20:58kept telling me I was doing it wrong .

21:00So I said : " Alright , maybe I'll call

21:02that inspector . " I call that senior

21:05inspector . The lady at the counter got

21:08so angry at me , she started tearing

21:10into me . I started crying , mom started

21:14hitting me , shoving me , just to get me

21:17to calm down . I didn't understand at

21:20all what was happening . Here my mother

21:23has grievances against me , here a woman

21:24is yelling at me , and here the senior

21:26inspector is saying : " But you're saying

21:28it right , just put that woman on the

21:30phone . " So I hold out my phone , and the

21:33one at the counter just hangs up

21:34entirely . The senior inspector calls me

21:37back . It was just a nightmare .

21:39>> What , what do you feel in a moment like

21:41that ? That I don't understand , like ,

21:43what , like what is wrong . I'm doing

21:45exactly what the senior inspector told

21:47me to do . But now , in therapy , I

21:51understand that the woman just didn't

21:52want it to be revealed that she had

21:54some , you know ,

21:57>> an issue with her competence , right ?

21:59Yes , someone made a mistake here ,

22:01someone blundered , or someone

22:02misinformed someone else .

22:04>> Yes . And now the one above her would

22:06know that this one did something and

22:07she would probably face consequences .

22:10But how was I supposed to know that yet

22:11? And well , fine , the matter got

22:14resolved , and at the end , the lady at

22:16the counter tells me : " Ma'am , you don't

22:18need to tell everyone everything . " This

22:22is the problem . You have a problem .

22:25>> And I say , I told you I am an autistic

22:26person when I approached the counter .

22:31I’m telling you , I don't know what

22:32you’re trying to say , because even to

22:34this day , I really don't get that you

22:36have to play these bureaucratic games .

22:40>> If you had just told me the rules ,

22:41I’m sure I wouldn’t have played

22:43along , but you shouldn't have to tell

22:44everyone everything . So yes , Małgosia ,

22:47remember , you don't have to tell

22:49everyone everything at the office .

22:51>> Yeah , that’s right . I really like

22:52putting off visits to the office , too .

22:56And when I finally go and spend five

22:58days preparing for it , two of which I

23:00don't sleep , it turns out it’s really

23:02not that big of a deal , because , well ,

23:04I’m not doing anything huge , so there

23:06wouldn't be any huge issues to resolve

23:08there anyway . But it is difficult ,

23:11because sitting across from me is a

23:13person who has competence , experience ,

23:15and authority , and because I’m the

23:17one in their space , that , that

23:18paralyzes me , you know ? It’s not that

23:20I’ll burst into tears , I just freeze

23:22up , but , well , I get it done . I somehow

23:25manage to get it done .

23:26>> Fre , so yes . And that’s a great

23:29reaction too , right ?

23:30>> You really can't go through half your

23:32life being frozen like that . Yes .

23:34It’s just that it’s expensive

23:36afterward ; unfreezing is very costly .

23:38Oh geez , and you know , the muscles ,

23:40everything in general .

23:43>> Are these , like , adult bureaucratic

23:45things your most difficult area for

23:47social functioning , or are there others

23:49?

23:51>> No , no , no , not just that , but I think

23:54it’s a really , very difficult thing .

23:59Luckily , I’ve learned that it’s

24:00better to just keep the same friends

24:02for years , because even if someone new

24:09wants to befriend me ... I often end up

24:11disappointing them because when I get

24:13into something , some project , I just

24:15disappear and go silent . And that is

24:21hard to understand . And as my husband

24:24very funnily put it , an invitation

24:28>> Mhm .

24:29>> equals an offense . So now I just know

24:39that I’m very open , I fall for people

24:41, I get charmed by people , but it

24:42really is hard , it’s hard not to

24:44disappoint someone with that lack , that

24:46sudden lack of availability , because

24:48that’s just how I am .

24:56>> And has it ever happened that someone ,

24:58that you felt you disappointed someone ?

25:01>> Yeah , yeah , because , because I didn't

25:03reply , because , because , because I'm

25:05not in touch , because of this or that ,

25:07oh God , you're already so busy . But

25:08unfortunately , I'm like that ; once my

25:10brain focuses on some project , on

25:12something , I live only for that and

25:14it's difficult . Oh , is it really that

25:16hard to reply ? It is hard . And did you

25:19feel guilty about the fact that it’s

25:23so simple to reply , it’s just a

25:25simple administrative matter . Did you

25:27feel guilty that others manage , but you

25:29don't ?

25:29>> Of course . Of course , luckily the

25:34diagnosis helps to deal with that guilt

25:36of , you know , the Gmail app with 18,000

25:38unread messages , in the sense of

25:40accepting it more .

25:44>> At what point did you think you might

25:46be on the autism spectrum or have ADHD ?

25:51I mean , at what point did you realize

25:53that the way you perceive the world ,

25:54live , and function isn't the same for

25:56everyone ? I definitely often felt that

26:04I perceive the world differently than

26:06others , only I kept looking for the

26:08cause in my childhood hardships , my

26:09problems , thinking it was generally

26:11some issue of mine that I could get

26:13cured or therapized out of . But the

26:24moment I watched a show — and you

26:26reminded me of the title of that show ,

26:28" Authentic , " a great show on TVN where

26:30people on the spectrum interviewed

26:31their guests — a rapper much younger

26:33than me , whose music and work I really

26:35like , and his stage personality , I

26:37really like him , Mata , spoke about his

26:39difficulties and the fact that he has a

26:41diagnosis .

26:46>> And what did he say about those

26:47difficulties ? I remember he spoke about

26:56that feeling of being different , and

26:57connecting it with his songs , with his

26:59lyrics and various interviews , about

27:01how he is with creation in general ,

27:03that he is so much in it all the time ,

27:05in that creative process , that he just

27:07can't tear himself away from it . And

27:15that is exactly what I feel too . With

27:18acting , I just love it so much that I

27:20could live just for that , day and night

27:22. Which made me wonder , and back then I

27:27was also working with a girl who had a

27:33book about Asperger's . I borrowed it

27:39from her and read the book , and damn ,

27:41it was just like reading about myself ,

27:43some kind of total revelation . Do you

27:47remember what it was ? What did you

27:49associate with yourself from that book ?

27:52An excessive need for precision , an

27:54excessive need to establish things , to

27:57explain , that very disappearing ,

28:05switching off from life , and then

28:07switching back into life . It's hard ,

28:18because I also heard from my

28:19diagnostician that people on the

28:21spectrum often have trouble working at

28:23the level of their actual skills due to

28:25social difficulties ; that unlocking

28:27your full potential is harder for us

28:28than for neurotypical people . And that

28:38was exactly what the book was about . I

28:43really felt that was my path and my

28:45constant , ongoing work on myself , so

28:46that the potential I have could

28:48actually be realized . Yeah , from what I

28:55recall , I remember it's not like she

28:57said that 10 years ago , because this

28:59program hasn't been on for 10 years , it

29:01was more like , I don't know , three

29:03years ago . Uh ,

29:07>> well ,

29:08>> and you've had your diagnosis for two

29:10years , you went for a diagnosis later ,

29:12so you hadn't encountered it anywhere

29:14before , it didn't come to you , I don't

29:16know . So , you never came across

29:19information about autism spectrum or

29:21ADHD ? People were talking about it more

29:24and more , but that information didn't

29:26reach you ?

29:28>> No , there was nothing like that . I

29:34remember when I had rehearsals for a

29:36play at my theater and the director

29:38gave me a note , and I said : " Aha , so

29:40that's the same note as the one from

29:41the fourth run-through today . " I

29:48remember Agata Kulesza joked back then .

29:50" Damn , you have Asperger's . " I thought

29:54to myself back then : " Damn , really ? So

29:57it’s not that everyone remembers that

29:59in this rehearsal it was like this , and

30:01in that rehearsal it was different ? "

30:04Because I thought everyone was like

30:06that , that everyone remembers exactly

30:07as I do , like , I remember what the

30:09previous take was , what it was like in

30:11that take , which take I think was

30:13better and why — and I thought everyone

30:15had that . But it turns out they don't .

30:20>> When you heard about Mata's

30:21difficulties , when you read the book in

30:23which you found so many traits in

30:25common with yourself , you decided to

30:27sign up for a diagnosis . And

30:31>> what was your level of knowledge about

30:33the autism spectrum in general ? How did

30:34you imagine it ? Did you have any

30:36stereotypical thinking ? What did you

30:38associate the autism spectrum with in

30:40the first place ? Because I also have a

30:43friend who has AuDHD , who is completely

30:45different from me , but now I know why

30:47we understand each other so well . He is

30:52an introverted person , a writer , he

30:54doesn't like working with people , So I

31:01imagined the autism spectrum just as it

31:03is for him , that it looks the way it

31:05does for him , that it's an introverted

31:07person who prefers to spend time alone ,

31:09to work alone . So I went to the first

31:16diagnostic visit convinced that I was

31:18just checking it as a formality . My

31:25motivation to check for the spectrum

31:27was feedback from my husband that I can

31:29be too honest , too cruel in what I say ,

31:31which I also didn't understand . So I

31:39went to that diagnostic visit and

31:40thought to myself , it's a formality ,

31:42I'll just check it to tell my husband

31:44that everything is okay with me . Well ,

31:50and at the very first visit , the

31:52diagnostician said , " Oh , yes , I see you

31:54have high masking abilities here , it

31:56will be difficult for us , but I am

31:58almost certain that the diagnosis will

32:00be that you are on the autism spectrum .

32:02" And that diagnosis lasted for many

32:07meetings .

32:08>> Exactly . What did that diagnostic

32:10process look like ? Very long . I think

32:12it took about two months and a computer

32:17test and that test has 600 questions . I

32:20don't know what that test is called ,

32:22but Małgosia , you surely know what I'm

32:24talking about . For ADHD or for the

32:27spectrum ?

32:28>> For both the spectrum and ADHD . A DIVA

32:30test , but that is more of a diagnostic

32:32criterion for the therapist , and it's

32:34not treated by the therapist as a test ,

32:38>> it's not treated as a test , but more

32:40like a tool for asking questions , but I

32:42don't know if that's the one with 600 ,

32:44but I also remember one with 600

32:45questions on the computer that you

32:47solve by yourself

32:51>> and you can diagnose everything there ,

32:53in the sense that personality disorders

32:55also come up , so I think it's great for

32:57everyone to take this test , even though

32:59it's terrible , because it lasts two

33:00hours and you can really wither away in

33:02front of that computer . But anyway ,

33:09there was one day for that , another day

33:11was for solving IQ tests , and another

33:13day was for a test at the computer with

33:15the diagnostician , so there was a

33:16terrible amount of it . And finally , a

33:23visit after all those exercises with

33:25the diagnostician , telling stories and

33:27looking for elements . It was just an

33:31awful , awful lot of days . And on top of

33:33that , then a visit to the psychiatrist ,

33:37so it was a very large , long process .

33:41And I remember how the psychiatrist was

33:43asking me questions and asked me about

33:44my interests in my youth , and that was

33:46when we talked about ancient Sumer and

33:48he did something like this . Oh .

33:51>> Okay .

33:51>> Okay . Well , that's probably just

33:55>> well , you know , but it was very

33:57liberating , at first I was depressed

34:00>> exactly . It was an emotionally

34:06difficult process , because you know , I

34:08think about answering 600 questions ,

34:10which are so precise and detailed ,

34:12because to catch symptoms and rule out

34:14anything else , it has to be very

34:15precise and detailed . And then you

34:24remember things that you hadn't thought

34:26about in a long time , or hadn't even

34:27considered . Yes , well , it's an

34:32interrogation , 600 questions about your

34:34life , it's very detailed — was that

34:36hard for you ? A nightmare . No , this

34:40test was a total nightmare , really .

34:44That was probably the hardest part of

34:45the whole process , because the picture

34:47stuff , the pattern matching , the

34:49intelligence tests — that was fine .

34:53That's actually somewhat relaxing , but

34:55those questions , wow , but I really

34:57recommend it to everyone .

34:58>> Yes . To everyone who suspects that the

35:00difficulties they are struggling with

35:02aren't just character flaws , right ? But

35:05that it might be neurodivergence . Were

35:10there any areas or traits , or symptoms

35:12of ADHD and the spectrum that , during

35:14the diagnostic process , were the

35:16hardest for you to learn about ? I think

35:27it was more my own anxiety , but then I

35:29confronted it with my diagnostician ,

35:30because I was afraid , as I had this

35:32idea that people on the autism spectrum

35:34have difficulty with emotions . The kind

35:41that I often hear now from

35:43>> from people . Yes , I also had that

35:47stereotype and I often hear that

35:48stereotype , and I asked her if that

35:50meant I didn't have emotional

35:52intelligence . And fortunately , among

35:57all those tests , there was also an

35:58emotional intelligence test , so I know

36:00I have it , but I was afraid , Małgosia ,

36:02that it would mean I just didn't have

36:04emotional intelligence and wasn't cut

36:06out to be an actress .

36:07>> That you're a robot , for example , right

36:09? Without emotions .

36:10>> Yes , yes . I was afraid that , you know ,

36:13that I wasn't suited for my profession ,

36:15you know , those were almost

36:16catastrophic thoughts .

36:17>> But didn't you think about the fact

36:19that you graduated from a school that

36:21is , let's be honest , difficult , right ?

36:23>> Acting school , film school , because you

36:25graduated in Łódź ,

36:26>> is a difficult school , so surely

36:28someone there would have realized that

36:29you don't know how to do emotions , you

36:31don't know how to show them . And yet

36:33you finished it , but did you have

36:34imposter syndrome or were you just

36:36terrified that someone would discover

36:37it any minute ? Of course , impostor

36:42syndrome , but also a syndrome that — I

36:44think — is related to the fact that

36:46people on the autism spectrum also ,

36:48from what I know , I hope I’m not

36:50wrong ( if I am , I apologize ) , find it

36:52harder to describe themselves than

36:54neurotypical people , that

36:55self-awareness or looking at oneself

36:57from the outside is more difficult . So

37:03it seemed to me that , damn , if the test

37:05shows that I don’t have emotional

37:06intelligence , then that test must be

37:08right . Fortunately , the test confirmed

37:10it , but you know , that catastrophizing

37:12was already starting , like , you know ,

37:14it’s all over . Amen .

37:16>> As if my career was over , like they

37:18were going to take my diploma away ,

37:20>> because I cheated .

37:21>> Oh , Jesus . But luckily , it turned out

37:24that I was living by stereotypes , which

37:28were unfounded . And to this day , it

37:34seems to me that many actors might

37:36actually be on the autism spectrum and

37:38that it definitely helps me , because my

37:39emotionality certainly helps me , which

37:41— after reading those books about

37:43female autism , which is such a blessing

37:45of modern times — that ...

37:50>> that these books exist , that there are

37:52testimonies of women who were diagnosed

37:54in adulthood . Especially since women

37:58have a much greater tendency to mask

38:00than boys , because they learn it by

38:02imitating women and adapting ,

38:07>> and they think they just learned it

38:08that way and are somehow getting by in

38:10life .

38:11>> Exactly . And also our traits , um , our

38:17autistic traits are much more socially

38:19desirable than those of men , because a

38:21woman is supposed to be polite , follow

38:23the rules , while a man is supposed to

38:25be the naughty , ambitious boy , and so

38:28on . And did you have a need , for

38:33example , to know how many there are ,

38:35which traits there are more of , right ?

38:37Whether autistic ones or ADHD ones ? Or

38:40do you have more of one or the other ?

38:44Did you try to identify more with the

38:46term spectrum , or identify more with

38:48autism ? Because , because , because a

38:53diagnosis is a moment when you find

38:55things out , but

38:58>> that doesn’t mean you accept it ,

39:00because the process of accepting a

39:01diagnosis and processing all of this

39:05>> is also a difficult phenomenon and

39:06there can be different states . How , how

39:08, how did you feel after that diagnosis

39:11?

39:11>> Absolutely yes . I needed to work

39:13through it in psychotherapy to accept

39:15the

39:20>> diagnosis , to reach a point where I

39:22like the fact that my brain works this

39:24way and not otherwise , that I see that

39:26there are more benefits than problems ,

39:28and that I somehow accept the

39:29problematic things . Did you have to

39:37change anything to make it easier for

39:38you to function , or did you just accept

39:40that you have difficulties in some

39:42areas ? Did you , you know , have to

39:46modify a few things ? I'm thinking more

39:50in terms of ADHD , because neither can

39:52be cured through therapy ; it's not a

39:54disorder , but rather an innate

39:56neurodivergence . So , a major ,

40:00fundamental change isn't possible here .

40:04You can only learn tools to help you

40:06function . Was there anything you had to

40:08change , anything you wanted to change ?

40:13You know , Małgosia , I think acceptance

40:15definitely came to me , because I

40:17realized these things are unchangeable

40:19— I mean , the traits are unchangeable ,

40:21I can only manage the things around

40:23them . But it’s also been a huge help

40:33for me to read all the books on this

40:35topic , all the publications , or

40:36interviews with people who are

40:38so-called self-advocates ; it just helps

40:40me . Reading about it , learning , and

40:49also meeting other people — it serves a

40:51therapeutic function for me and is very

40:53empowering . And what ADHD symptoms do

40:59you see in yourself ? The ones that

41:04affect your life , your functioning ? Are

41:09they more the issues related to

41:11concentration problems , or the

41:12psychomotor hyperactivity ? Both ,

41:19because it’s definitely true that

41:20when something is boring for me , like

41:22those ordinary , daily things , I really

41:24have to force myself to do them ; it’s

41:26much easier for me to engage in my work

41:28, which is passionate and interesting

41:30to me , than in cleaning , managing life

41:41or things like , even shopping , for

41:43example . Well , that is something I hate

41:46. You just have to say it .

41:47>> Grocery shopping or clothes shopping ?

41:48>> All of it .

41:49>> Yes ,

41:49>> everything . That’s just how it is . I

41:52really have to — when I see a queue , I

41:54leave , because it's just not worth my

41:56nerves . Luckily , I have a friend who is

42:01the same size as me , so I take

42:02advantage of the fact that she likes

42:04shopping . But these are the things

42:12where I really see that my lack of

42:14concentration is complete , but there

42:16are also , for example , those

42:17psychomotor ones , like when there is

42:19some well , an event or , for example ,

42:27this interview is fascinating , because

42:29you are

42:30>> let's talk about you , I mean not that ,

42:32not about you , that I'm already a star ,

42:34"

42:34>> star " was terrible ,

42:36>> but it is about something that is

42:37interesting to you .

42:38>> Interesting . You know that , you know

42:40what I mean ?

42:41>> Yes . I'm with an interviewee who also

42:44has a lot of knowledge on the subject ,

42:46and we're not just talking about roles

42:47and things like that .

42:50>> So , if you were to have an interview

42:51about a role ,

42:53>> yes , you would find it exhausting .

42:56>> I have my own way of making sure it's

42:57not visible at all , because it looks

42:59really bad on camera when a person is

43:01just , uh ,

43:03>> fidgeting , you know , and so on . It's

43:06just very hard to watch , so I have this

43:08way of doing it with my feet — I'm

43:10revealing it now , ladies and gentlemen

43:12—

43:17>> I move the toes on one foot , then the

43:19other , and it's a bit like EMDR therapy

43:22, but it's very relaxing and calming ,

43:24and it meets my need to regulate

43:25tension , while allowing me to endure ,

43:27let's say , something like that , you

43:29know ? So that's something you found as

43:37your own method for , uh , survival , to

43:39adapt to the things you have to do

43:41professionally .

43:43>> Right ? Yes . Like , for example , on the

43:45red carpet — those are just awful , when

43:47there are premieres and you have to go

43:49out there and you have to , like , keep a

43:51straight face and participate in

43:56promoting the project because you're

43:58contractually bound to it , and I myself

44:00, of course , really like watching such

44:02materials ,

44:05>> of course .

44:06>> With actors and creators — I love it .

44:08But to be there on that side ? It’s

44:16really like I imagine myself as little

44:18Paulinka , who used to dress up in her

44:20mom's dresses and just pretend that she

44:22was , I don't know , in Wuthering Heights

44:24, wandering around looking for

44:25Heathcliff ; I imagine that I am that

44:27Paulinka , five years old , while

44:29simultaneously doing some small

44:31stimming that isn't visible on camera ,

44:33which allows me to make this 20th or

44:34subsequent superficial conversation

44:36simply , uh , bearable . And how do you

44:45recover from that later , because it

44:46takes a lot of energy .

44:48>> A lot of energy . A lot of energy .

44:54>> Knowing that you have a diagnosis , you

44:56know what stems from what and how much

44:58energy it costs , so you know today that

45:00you have to let your body rest , because

45:01, well , otherwise it will be bad . I

45:08mean , because the body can later issue

45:10an invoice with a deferred payment date

45:11. Totally ,

45:14>> totally ,

45:15>> because I can also imagine that

45:17temptation . I think that when a person

45:20is young , they have the impression that

45:22they have three lives in a computer

45:23game . Oh God , out of fatigue I kind of

45:27disconnect from my body , I keep going ,

45:29I take on more , I keep working , and it

45:32wasn't until my mental breakdown that ,

45:34>> yes .

45:36>> I’ve learned that , well , if the body

45:38is saying something , it’s because I

45:39need to stop ,

45:41>> right ?

45:42>> But I didn’t learn that right away ,

45:43>> did I ?

45:45>> And today I see that I can no longer

45:47fool it , I can’t just fool fatigue ,

45:49because if I do , it always ends badly .

45:53But I used to have so much energy for

45:55it and I didn’t rest at all , even

45:57knowing that something had cost me a

45:59ton of emotions , that kind of social

46:03striving , exactly ,

46:06>> and I wouldn’t rest .

46:07>> Yes .

46:08>> And that’s bad , because for me it

46:10ended in a very serious mental

46:11breakdown .

46:12>> Absolutely . Absolutely .

46:14>> Does it resonate with you that you

46:15didn't used to rest , but today you know

46:17you have to ?

46:17>> Yes , yes . And I was very sick back then

46:20. I think it manifested

46:22psychosomatically . Luckily , I'm just

46:27smart enough now that I'm in constant

46:31contact with an osteopath

46:35>> and and I go to physiotherapy . Uh , and

46:39this is a contact I got from Grześ

46:41Damiński , from my theater , who is also

46:43very conscious . Uh , even though

46:51Grzegorz , my older colleague from the

46:53theater , uh , well , he’s at an age

46:55where he could almost be my father , I

46:57feel like he is a very modern man , very

47:03>> self-aware . He is also a great actor in

47:07general , and before I was at the

47:09Ateneum Theater , I really admired his

47:11theater roles , well , because I'm from

47:13Warsaw , so I knew the Ateneum Theater

47:15well . Uh , and Grzesiek , he , I remember

47:23that when I met him and I was , I had

47:24just started , uh , working at the

47:26Ateneum , and someone , I had nodules on

47:28my vocal cords , and I remember that he ,

47:30uh , already gave me some advice back

47:32then about this psychosomatics , uh , of

47:34the voice , and , and working on the

47:36premiere I was in , which , which we

47:38weren't in together , but he just ,

47:39someone told me to just ask him , and he

47:41actually gave me some really nice

47:43psychological advice and gave me a

47:45contact a few years ago for an

47:47osteopath he went to himself , who

47:48helped him when he was having a hard

47:50time and had back problems back then

47:52too . Uh , and I , uh , went to this

48:02osteopath , to Marek , and he is a person

48:04who works holistically , also on the

48:06head , and he looks at and believes in

48:08the fact that tensions related to the

48:10psyche are hidden in the body , and he

48:11also does this interview : " And what

48:13have you been doing lately ? " he asks ,

48:18focusing on the body as well . And he

48:26teaches me , this , this physiotherapy

48:28with him teaches me that I simply have

48:30to take care of my body , because

48:32otherwise it will manifest as something

48:34: whether I sprain an ankle or just

48:35something , where this tension or

48:37illness will appear , that this tension

48:39somewhere , this organism , this cellular

48:41stress — which is proven anyway — will

48:43come out somewhere . So , this constant

48:51cooperation with someone in this regard

48:53really keeps me in check . Did being on

49:00the autism spectrum help you , or was it

49:02a difficulty for you in getting , you

49:03know , on this path from little Paulina ,

49:05dressing up and playing roles , to film

49:07school ? Yeah , that's a tough question .

49:16I think it helped a bit , it also

49:18definitely posed some difficulties

49:19along the way , and I would probably be

49:21in a different place .

49:25>> Okay , but you go through elementary

49:27school , junior high , high school , end

49:29of high school . You’ve probably known

49:31for a long time that you wanted to be

49:33an actress , right ?

49:34>> Well , I claim I didn’t . My mom claims

49:36I did .

49:37>> But you decide to go to a school where

49:38there are how many people per spot ?

49:40>> Well , actually no , I didn't decide that

49:42. My first choice was in line with what

49:47my high school homeroom teacher told me

49:49, who was a huge authority to me , but

49:51also helped me socially , like getting a

49:53social scholarship , being able to take

49:55extra history classes and so on , to

49:57fulfill my dreams . She told me , and it

50:03was also very rational advice . I can't

50:09apply to acting school or art school

50:11like the Małgosias , because I had two

50:13Małgosias in my class who also wanted

50:15to pursue acting . Uh , because I come

50:20from a poor family and I just have to

50:22financially support my mom , so I have

50:24to have a normal profession in hand . So

50:28I decided I would go into international

50:30relations , which , as we know today , was

50:33just very overrated . Damn ,

50:35>> did you stick with that international

50:37relations program ?

50:37>> Uh , I was there for a year , it was

50:39great . I already had

50:43>> I already had , you know , I had my whole

50:45career in my head , you know , that I

50:47would deal with Polish-Ukrainian

50:49relations . Back then I just had this

50:53phase , because I also went to the

50:54mountains in Ukraine , to Chornohora ,

50:56and I just , you know , I was learning

50:58Ukrainian , so I had this phase that I

51:00would focus on that . Uh , and I also

51:04really liked the psychopathology of

51:06politics . Actually , I was exempt from

51:08exams in many subjects . But my

51:12boyfriend dumped me , and the fact that

51:13my boyfriend dumped me caused a

51:15psychological crisis for me , because as

51:17it happens with those first loves ,

51:19>> and was that your first more serious

51:20relationship ?

51:21>> Yes , yes . You know , it just seems to

51:23you that

51:24>> is this the end of the world and

51:25nothing , ever again , nothing . Totally ,

51:28totally , just the end . Amen . So and I

51:35was going through a crisis back then

51:36and I thought : " God , I can't be like my

51:38mom , who will always tell me that she

51:40could have been the frontwoman of a

51:42rock band , but didn't because , well ,

51:43she would have had to drop out of food

51:45technology school , so I won't be like

51:47mom . " I will just try , give myself one

51:52chance , so that later , to my children ,

51:54which I still don't have , I won't

51:56repeat what my mom did . So I'll just

51:58apply to one school , but one where no

52:00one finds out , because I definitely

52:02won't get into drama school , as I

52:04realize how many applicants there are

52:05for one spot . So to avoid embarrassment

52:09, I'll apply where I know , you know ,

52:11people don't usually apply , which is

52:12Łódź , and at least there won't be

52:14any shame . I won't tell anyone about it

52:17, that way there won't be any

52:18embarrassment either . Yeah . And I

52:21passed , I got in , so then I had to say

52:23something . My mom wasn't happy about

52:27the news .

52:27>> Well , because it's such an uncertain

52:29job . I mean , the studies are beautiful ,

52:32though difficult , but the work is not

52:34guaranteed at all . There are so many

52:37actors who have a degree , they

52:38graduated , and perhaps they are great

52:40actors .

52:42>> I absolutely know plenty of them .

52:43>> Exactly

52:44>> so many , who , you know , I was simply in

52:47love with their acting when I was in

52:48school , and today I know that they

52:50simply had to change professions . But

52:53since I got an ' A ' in economics ,

52:58>> I understood the disproportion between

53:00the supply of actors and the demand for

53:02actors , so I immediately thought that I

53:04had to have a plan B. So I was

53:06constantly mapping out this plan B in

53:08my head , and I had these plans simply

53:10drawn out and assumed that if , you know

53:11, a year after graduation I couldn't

53:13find work , then I'd change jobs , change

53:15professions . That's such a brave

53:21approach , I mean brave , rational , and ,

53:23well , not really letting yourself dream

53:25a bit , because it also seems to me that

53:27it is such a world where , well , there

53:29is this dream , right , about this career

53:31.

53:33>> Ah , well yes , yes .

53:35>> How you sighed . Yes , yes , because I

53:40think it caused many such rational

53:42decisions on my part , which ensured

53:44that I really could support my mom

53:45financially , because I had to decide ,

53:47for example , instead of waiting for a

53:49part , to accept a role in a daily

53:51series . I know , I see the effects of it

54:02, like in how I'm perceived

54:04professionally , but on the other hand ,

54:06if not for those decisions , I wouldn't

54:08be where I am now , financially

54:09independent and also able to support my

54:11mom . And I think that's what I also

54:19dreamed of . So , on the other hand , well

54:24, now I think I'm at a professional

54:26point where I can afford not to accept

54:28every role like I had to at the

54:29beginning .

54:33>> Well , that takes a lot of work

54:35sometimes , you know ? To be able to

54:38choose later , to be able to decide , you

54:40sometimes have to work for it .

54:43Sometimes very hard , and sometimes it

54:44doesn't work out at all , you know .

54:46It’s such a , such a , such a lottery ,

54:48a bit like the Wild West . Totally the

54:50Wild West . Totally . And of course , we

54:52don't know how long this moment will

54:54last . We don't know how long audiences

54:57will want to see me in roles , how long

54:58directors will need me , so you have to

55:00be prepared to revise your plans .

55:05>> And how did neurodivergence help or

55:07hinder you during your studies ?

55:09>> Oh , it hindered me terribly . Jesus ,

55:12Małgosia , it was so difficult for me .

55:14>> And what , what exactly was bothering

55:16you ? The lack of written rules , just

55:22the fact that it was just so ... it was

55:24just something , you know , because after

55:26a year at UW , where everyone is formal

55:28with you — not in college and —

55:29everyone treats you like an adult ,

55:31suddenly you go somewhere to study ,

55:33where it's supposed to be under the

55:34Bologna system , but everyone treats you

55:36like a small child and it's a

55:38master-disciple system . For me , it was ,

55:45well , , sorry , but it was

55:47insurmountable for my brain .

55:50>> How did that manifest itself ? I mean ,

55:54like , were you trying to find out , push

55:56boundaries , change something ? How did

56:00you even manage in that system , which

56:02was , which was difficult for you ?

56:04>> Very poorly . Very poorly . And my

56:07classmates from that year also

56:08suspected I wouldn't be an actress .

56:12Yeah , that's what they said . They said

56:15I was too smart to be an actress , but

56:16that's also a stupid stereotype about

56:18actresses , isn't it ? That you , you know

56:20, just can't ask too many questions .

56:24Yeah , but , well , I just completely — of

56:26course , luckily it turned out that once

56:28you're working , it's easier than in

56:30school , that at work there are defined

56:32rules , just simply . Uh , so it's not

56:38like you have to , uh , for instance ,

56:39pass an exam by , uh , well later I

56:41realized that it meant I had to recite

56:43prose just like the professor does ,

56:45that it's simply about not finding your

56:47own acting style , but having to imitate

56:49someone . But then , my soul , which seeks

56:56meaning in everything , thought that it

56:58made no sense , that it would be

57:00dishonest of me as an actress to

57:01deliver this prose the way the

57:03professor does . If I feel that this

57:07professor is saying it superficially ,

57:11>> so did you learn a lot in in acting

57:13school ? I learned a lot from those

57:19professors who didn't have these , you

57:21know , general rules of just licking

57:22your finger and seeing which way the

57:24wind blows . Instead , they treated

57:30acting , I feel , very professionally . Uh

57:36, so among others , from Mariusz Jakus ,

57:38who for me in the first year was a

57:40professor who simply gave me a strong

57:42justification that it was right for me

57:44to be in this program , because he

57:46evaluated us all very equally . It

57:51wasn't like someone was better just

57:53because , but he was able to explain

57:55everything . And well , there were some

58:03rules for these classes , and he treated

58:05us very much like adults , just like it

58:07was at , at the university , so he simply

58:09required full commitment from us , so I

58:11learned a lot from him and I also

58:13really like him as an actor . When I

58:22meet him on set , it's terribly funny to

58:24me , because I still feel a bit , you

58:26know , like , damn , because we had to say

58:28" Professor , " so I feel a bit like I

58:30have to be in that master-apprentice

58:31system , even though he really didn't

58:33like that and forced us to be on equal

58:35footing with him . I learned a great

58:41deal from Waldemar Zawodziński . And

58:44from Ireneusz Czop , with whom I also

58:46love to act . a great actor , a great

58:52partner , a professor who treated

58:54students so well , because they simply

58:55had some general principles of this

58:57profession that still hold true for me

58:59today , for example , that you don’t

59:00just play the same thing in the theater

59:02100 times , you don’t just replicate

59:04it , but it’s different every day

59:05because you are different , so the

59:07character will be different , and your

59:09partner is different , and here you have

59:10to be mega focused on your partner ,

59:12that you don’t play something

59:13you’ve thought up in your head , that

59:15the scene will look like this , but you

59:17have to play off the partner and watch

59:18how the partner behaves .

59:24>> How about your spectrum and ADHD ? Did

59:27it kick in , help , get in the way ?

59:29>> In those particular principles , it

59:31works great .

59:31>> Okay . And what did it interfere with

59:33once you started working in the

59:35profession ?

59:36>> Well , in the profession itself , I feel

59:38it helps a lot , because it really helps

59:40in professional life . Because , actually

59:44, professional life consists of meeting

59:45with the director , preparing the role

59:47in agreement with them , so you sense

59:49yourself and the director , and you have

59:51to react to your partner . So ADHD is

59:55also great because it allows you to

1:00:01have that hyperfocus , for example in a

1:00:02scene , that you see the partner and

1:00:04that you are able , you know , to simply

1:00:06breathe with them or sense those

1:00:08energies . Uh , and autism , I have the

1:00:13impression that it , in turn , helps me

1:00:15to go very deeply into a role , that I

1:00:17build a character different from who I

1:00:19am , because I’ve never managed to

1:00:21play a person similar to myself . God , I

1:00:24dream of a role playing a person on the

1:00:26spectrum . Really , this is my dream .

1:00:28Really , it is my big dream . Well , but

1:00:31>> you wouldn't have to act . I just go in ,

1:00:33go out .

1:00:34>> It is what it is . Yes , but because

1:00:36I’ve never played a person similar to

1:00:38myself , I am also trained , you know , to

1:00:40build the entire psychology , the entire

1:00:42architecture : how this person looks ,

1:00:44what their way of perceiving the world

1:00:46is , you know , for example , this

1:00:48character , when she is here in an

1:00:49interview , she sees that she has a

1:00:51third eye , that she is on camera , right

1:00:53? Because she happens to be a young

1:00:55narcissistic politician , and you know ,

1:00:57she just has it very studied , how she

1:00:59wants to be perceived . And that , for

1:01:02example , there is another character ,

1:01:04say a psychologist , who is terribly

1:01:06concerned , has high empathy , which is

1:01:08why she became a psychotherapist ,

1:01:10because she wants to help . So she is

1:01:14here like this and she is very stressed

1:01:16about whether she will answer the

1:01:17interview questions well ,

1:01:18satisfactorily , so that these

1:01:20characters simply differ — every

1:01:22character has such a different , well ,

1:01:23inner world .

1:01:25>> As a person on the spectrum , is it

1:01:27easier for you to play a role or to

1:01:29just be ? To be and live as myself , it's

1:01:34easier for me to play a role . Yes , of

1:01:42course , in the space where I have

1:01:44people I love , with whom I feel

1:01:45comfortable , like friends , my husband ,

1:01:47my mom , I feel wonderful with them and

1:01:49it's great , but there are many

1:01:50situations in private life where I find

1:01:52it very difficult and it's much easier

1:01:54for me to be at work than to have that

1:02:04private life , to be private . Because

1:02:07stepping into a role as a girl , even as

1:02:09a girl on the autism spectrum , and

1:02:11later as a woman , you learn so much . I

1:02:15mean , it's automatic , easier , and

1:02:17stepping into a role sometimes makes

1:02:19them adapt to society , right ? That it's

1:02:23just like , you know , you slip into

1:02:24these roles like butter .

1:02:26>> Absolutely . Well , for example , I love

1:02:31being at work , because at work there

1:02:33are specific , predictable rules for me

1:02:35and the rules of the game , and I love

1:02:37being on set because I just have a

1:02:39script of action there . But isn't it

1:02:44the case that things sometimes shift , I

1:02:46don't know , time-wise , or there are

1:02:48some changes ? And , is that stressful

1:02:50and paralyzing for you , when there are

1:02:52changes ,

1:02:52>> just because of the ADHD ? Actually no ,

1:02:54it’s that I have a bit of that ,

1:02:56>> or one , the other overlaps and you

1:02:57don't have that , because if you had one

1:02:59or the other strongly ,

1:03:02>> well , I think that would be a problem ,

1:03:04but damn , Małgosia , I'll tell you that

1:03:06for this work , in the entertainment

1:03:08industry , I don't know if being , or

1:03:09being a journalist is a bit of an

1:03:11entertainment industry .

1:03:14>> That depends on which one , right ?

1:03:16>> That depends on which one . Well , if you

1:03:18work in media entertainment . Yes , yes .

1:03:21>> Well , I have the impression that for

1:03:22this work in media , this combination of

1:03:25autism and ADHD is just , you know ,

1:03:26>> I have the impression that there are

1:03:28tons of people on the spectrum and with

1:03:30ADHD in media , because there's not only

1:03:32focus ,

1:03:34>> adrenaline , it's also extra .

1:03:37>> And you can just commit yourself

1:03:38completely and something is always

1:03:40happening .

1:03:40>> Absolutely .

1:03:41>> And when nothing is happening , that's

1:03:43the worst , right ? Yes , when things are

1:03:45happening , that's great .

1:03:48>> Yes , yes . I have the impression that

1:03:51these two components are actually , you

1:03:53know , really professional

1:03:54predispositions .

1:03:55>> And how was it for you with the traits

1:04:01of the spectrum and traits of ADHD to

1:04:08enter the training , the recordings , and

1:04:10finally the live show on Dancing with

1:04:12the Stars ? It was very difficult and I

1:04:19really struggled with the thought of

1:04:20whether to take part in the program .

1:04:24People I know who were on the show

1:04:26really encouraged me to do it , because

1:04:28they talked about the benefits it gave

1:04:29them , and I have to admit they were

1:04:31right . They were right . They are major

1:04:34benefits for an actor

1:04:37>> professionally later on ,

1:04:39>> right ? I feel it's more about the work

1:04:41on oneself . Yes , yes , yes . Those skills

1:04:47, self-awareness , that , oh my god , that

1:04:49body awareness through dance training ,

1:04:51where those dances are actually linked

1:04:53to emotions ,

1:05:00>> since every dance there has some kind

1:05:02of guiding emotion , I really feel it

1:05:04expands the work on the body for a role

1:05:06, especially in a wide shot

1:05:13>> and in theater , really , it just totally

1:05:15opens up new compartments in the brain

1:05:17regarding how you can show something in

1:05:19a wide shot or on a theater stage ,

1:05:21where every viewer has a wide shot .

1:05:26That is a huge benefit , I feel , of this

1:05:29kind of training . Plus , it broke the

1:05:33spell of my trauma related to learning

1:05:35to dance , because I am clearly not cut

1:05:37out for learning anything in a group .

1:05:40>> Mhm . M

1:05:41>> group training is just not for me .

1:05:43>> And what is it about group training

1:05:45that discourages you ?

1:05:47>> Do you compare yourself or are you

1:05:48afraid ?

1:05:49>> Probably that I compare myself , because

1:05:51I learn more slowly . I need a different

1:05:54way of explaining things , a much more

1:05:56detailed explanation from start to

1:05:58finish . And the overload of stimuli

1:06:05related to the group , the fact that

1:06:07it’s not just me and the trainer ,

1:06:08makes me instantly overstimulated when

1:06:10it's in a group . And group dance

1:06:14classes in school . Even though it was

1:06:18ballroom dancing , it was hell for me .

1:06:23And was there much work in general with

1:06:25preparation and work and lessons with

1:06:27the body at school , in comparison , you

1:06:29know , to acting , to learning how to act

1:06:31, versus learning to work with the body

1:06:33? Well , it probably wasn't on par , but

1:06:37the body is important , and especially

1:06:39in theater , you know , there's always

1:06:41something going on there ,

1:06:45>> but when you finished school , and then

1:06:47you were on Dancing with the Stars , did

1:06:49you have the feeling that

1:06:52>> only now have you learned much , much

1:06:54more .

1:06:55>> I definitely only learned to dance

1:06:57there , because during school , I had

1:06:59this dissonance , there was this dualism

1:07:01again , that I have some predisposition ,

1:07:03that I love it myself . to dance . I

1:07:05loved it when there were dance scenes .

1:07:07I created a lot of dance scenes where

1:07:09my characters danced for various

1:07:11reasons . Someone was dancing because

1:07:14they were on a mephedrone high , an

1:07:16addicted girl , right ? And that was the

1:07:20moment of her life in which she was

1:07:21alive , but in reality , she was

1:07:23balancing on the border of life and

1:07:24death . That’s how I imagined it ,

1:07:28right ? And that is what her dance was

1:07:29about . Uh , and there was a character in

1:07:33" Girls to Buy " who danced because she

1:07:35was just full of narcissistic egomania ,

1:07:37that she is now a businesswoman calling

1:07:39the shots , and she isn't the one

1:07:40prostituting herself , but rather she

1:07:42has people who prostitute themselves

1:07:44for her . So , you know , every dance was

1:07:48about something else , and I liked those

1:07:50scenes , even though they're filmed for

1:07:52many hours and it really takes , you

1:07:54know , you're busting your tail on set

1:07:56for 8 hours dancing . But I liked it ,

1:08:01and I could see that people liked it

1:08:02too , so I didn't understand why ,

1:08:04suddenly , I was getting C’s in school

1:08:06. Same thing in rhythmics , even though

1:08:11I hear the music , I love music ; the

1:08:13fact that I got C’s , I just didn't

1:08:15understand it . But today I understand

1:08:19that I would have needed private

1:08:21lessons with a suitable , empathetic ,

1:08:23non-judgmental instructor back then .

1:08:33Was it hard for you to learn the steps

1:08:35with my dance partner , Michał

1:08:37Bartkiewicz , who has a lot of empathy

1:08:38and was able to explain things to me in

1:08:40such a calm , detailed way ? He also has

1:08:48choreographic skills , so he was really

1:08:50able to create a complete picture of a

1:08:52given dance for me . I felt like it was

1:08:56going okay , I don't know about others ,

1:08:58maybe it went faster for them than for

1:09:00me . I trained a lot , many hours , 8

1:09:04hours a day , but because I got so into

1:09:06it and dove so deep into the subject , I

1:09:09could do it day and night , Małgosia . I

1:09:12just ...

1:09:13>> And what if you hadn't gotten into it ?

1:09:15>> If I hadn't gotten into it , well , that

1:09:19would be that . I would have told myself

1:09:21that I gave it a try . I would have said

1:09:23that Ms. Ostrowska from rhythmics was

1:09:24right . Yeah .

1:09:25>> Exactly . So if you hadn't gotten into

1:09:28it , would that learning process have

1:09:30been much , much harder ?

1:09:32>> Oh boy . Oh , come on . I think that in

1:09:35general ...

1:09:36>> I mean , I think , okay , sometimes a

1:09:38person doesn't get into something , but

1:09:40maybe they’re just super determined ,

1:09:42or they disassociate , stand outside

1:09:44themselves , and just switch off , but

1:09:46they learn it . Because that's how they

1:09:49are , because they have that survival

1:09:50mechanism ,

1:09:51>> right ? But what does it cost , though ?

1:09:53How much energy does that cost ? And ...

1:09:56>> since you did get into it and there was

1:09:58an intense hyperfocus on it ...

1:10:00>> Intense . Oh gosh , no , Michał didn't

1:10:02have the strength to train anymore , but

1:10:04I wanted more and more and more , " let's

1:10:07do this , " " let's do that , " so in the end

1:10:09, I was wearing him out , not the other

1:10:11way around . We were the opposite of all

1:10:15the other couples , but it was great .

1:10:17>> Did you expect that you would get this

1:10:19far , or or

1:10:20>> not ? Absolutely not . Are you the type

1:10:25of person who sees the glass as half

1:10:26full or half empty ? An optimist or a

1:10:30pessimist ?

1:10:31>> In life , I actually feel like I see the

1:10:33glass as half full , not empty ,

1:10:38>> But I also feel that I'm a realist , I

1:10:40got an A in economics and logic , so I

1:10:42see how things are , what I'm starting

1:10:43with , and what others are starting with

1:10:45. I also quickly realized during the

1:10:51show that I didn't have a plan for

1:10:53myself , I saw that others were prepared

1:10:54in that regard , they knew what they

1:10:56wanted to say about themselves and they

1:10:58knew who they were and how they wanted

1:11:00to present themselves . Whereas I , in

1:11:04turn , just don't fully know who I am

1:11:06and I don't know how I want to present

1:11:08myself . I was also very afraid because

1:11:10I had never shown myself privately to

1:11:12people , whether people would even like

1:11:14me . And I feel that , I mean I know from

1:11:20my diagnosis that I have low

1:11:21manipulation skills , but high

1:11:23susceptibility to being manipulated , so

1:11:25I felt that I just wouldn't be able to

1:11:27play a part , and I had no idea who this

1:11:29" Paulina " was supposed to be on the

1:11:31show . I mean , I knew I wouldn't hide

1:11:36behind a role , so I really didn't

1:11:37believe that I would gain such sympathy

1:11:39. And did you even know that you had to

1:11:44have this plan for yourself for the

1:11:45show , or since you didn't , because it's

1:11:47kind of an unofficial rule , right ? That

1:11:49you go on a show and you'd better know ,

1:11:51>> unofficial , no one said anything .

1:11:53>> Oh , so no one told you . Well , how are

1:11:55you supposed to know ?

1:11:58>> No one said anything , but then during

1:12:00the show , you quickly realize by

1:12:01watching others that some people know

1:12:03exactly what it's about , and good for

1:12:05them . Luckily , because I was very

1:12:14afraid , you know , of this confrontation

1:12:16with the media regarding talking about

1:12:18myself — it was difficult for me to

1:12:19talk about , you know , being from a poor

1:12:21family , convincing my mom to appear ,

1:12:23because there was something like a

1:12:25family episode — I had refused to

1:12:27participate in this show for many years

1:12:29because of that family episode , I just

1:12:31didn't want to do that to myself or my

1:12:32mom , that I would just force her into

1:12:34it . So well , and indeed , the whole

1:12:43family worked on it . My mom's sisters

1:12:45had to persuade her to do it , because

1:12:47mom didn't want to . I thank her for

1:12:49that . In the end , she is happy and that

1:12:51is a beautiful keepsake for me . Even

1:12:54though when we danced , I just had tears

1:12:56in my eyes and I was so moved

1:13:00>> and we take a bow .

1:13:01>> And before we even got to Krzysztof

1:13:03Ibisz , which is the main , main thing my

1:13:05mom remembers from that episode , it’s

1:13:06that she stood next to Krzysztof Ibisz

1:13:08and met him ,

1:13:09>> I mean , a thrill for anyone , right ? My

1:13:13mom was obviously nudging me ,

1:13:15>> you know , with her elbow , so I

1:13:16wouldn’t shake , because I was holding

1:13:18back tears , so I was shaking , and she

1:13:20kept saying to me : " Don’t shake ,

1:13:21don't shake . " When Mom scolds , you

1:13:23straighten up right away .

1:13:24>> Yeah , and I just thought to myself then

1:13:26, good Lord , always , always the same

1:13:28thing . Well . Yeah , but , well , it was

1:13:30very moving for me and it’s a memento

1:13:32for me for the rest of my life . And I

1:13:37am also very happy that I could take my

1:13:39mom , who is a fighter to me , raised me

1:13:41and my sister on her own ... And honestly

1:13:43, well , we lived in an apartment

1:13:45without running water and she was just

1:13:47the most honest ... she is the most

1:13:48honest person I know . I mean , we just

1:13:55had nothing , and she was still able to

1:13:57share with other , uh , poor people and

1:13:59help some kids even in our neighborhood

1:14:01. Well , just a wonderful person , and

1:14:06that I was able to show this person to

1:14:08the world . But on the other hand , you

1:14:11know , Małgosia , it was very hard for

1:14:13me to show myself from such a

1:14:15vulnerable side , just because I feel

1:14:17like it's my soft underbelly , and that

1:14:19was , well , a lot for me .

1:14:22>> But who could hurt you ? You mean , the

1:14:23comments would hurt you ?

1:14:25>> Exactly . The comments , how people would

1:14:27perceive it . And that's why , I just had

1:14:31my agents with me , who helped me with

1:14:36it , because on my own , well , I was

1:14:38afraid , because I didn't know what was

1:14:40allowed , what wasn't , how it looked

1:14:42from the outside , so that I , in turn ,

1:14:44>> those are the rules of the game in this

1:14:46show business ,

1:14:47>> right ? And so that I , in turn — because

1:14:51I wouldn’t want it to seem like I’m

1:14:53playing the victim now and crying about

1:14:54how hard I had it , because I see it

1:14:56more as a source of pride and my mom as

1:14:58a hero , not a victim . Yeah , so , it was

1:15:08some kind of , you know , a terrible ,

1:15:09huge , therapeutic experience for me in

1:15:11the end , because of course I was using

1:15:13psychotherapy the whole time during the

1:15:15show , because , well , that sudden

1:15:17exposure of myself from private to the

1:15:18world was huge and I didn't think I

1:15:20would talk about being on the spectrum ,

1:15:22but I was on the program for so long

1:15:24that everyone was pushing me to do it ,

1:15:26and I went through it with my therapist

1:15:27, what's the worst that could happen if

1:15:29I said it , and what's the reason I

1:15:31sought out a diagnosis myself .

1:15:39>> You sit there and you just wonder if

1:15:41you can tell the truth about yourself ,

1:15:43right ? The world has gone crazy . Well ,

1:15:48just , but , but I thought to myself , the

1:15:50very argument that convinced me on this

1:15:52therapeutic path was that , damn it , if

1:15:54Mata hadn't said it , who knows how

1:15:56delayed my diagnosis would have been ,

1:15:58and who knows how much later I would

1:16:00have felt that my life improved by 200 %

1:16:02because of the diagnosis . My life with

1:16:08my loved ones too , because they know ,

1:16:09so they understand . So , damn it , if

1:16:14this can give that thought to anyone

1:16:16else , and I feel that I'll just be able

1:16:18to say , damn it , I am

1:16:21>> the way I am ,

1:16:22>> then , well , that's cool . And I really

1:16:25received so many beautiful messages ,

1:16:27especially from kids

1:16:32>> on the spectrum , that I think it was

1:16:33worth opening up . A young girl also

1:16:38came up to me recently at a premiere

1:16:40and told me that she thanks me so much

1:16:42for it , because she is a person on the

1:16:43spectrum .

1:16:45>> That's super .

1:16:47>> It makes up for everything .

1:16:49>> Well , sure . Yes , yes , yes . And have you

1:16:53worked out a way for yourself , or your

1:17:00own relationship with comments and hate

1:17:01? I don't know what , what is your

1:17:05method . You don't read them . You're not

1:17:07interested in it , you know , because ,

1:17:08well , there's no such thing as a thick

1:17:10skin strong enough that it wouldn't

1:17:12affect a person . No , there just isn't .

1:17:14>> Give me a break . And especially in

1:17:16Poland , it's like a specialty here .

1:17:18>> And how much is happening , you know ,

1:17:20the dance show was a program that was

1:17:22super popular . Like , from season to

1:17:24season there is so much surrounding it ,

1:17:26and suddenly there's a ton . It

1:17:28intensifies . It's good that you were in

1:17:32a therapeutic process the whole time ,

1:17:33right ? During it . Very , very good . It's

1:17:37good that I had those agents who — as I

1:17:39was worrying , whether something just

1:17:47I’ll say it — how it might be

1:17:49perceived , if it’s too much , or

1:17:50simply how it looks to the world and so

1:17:52on — they looked after that and

1:17:54controlled it , and the interviews , and

1:17:56so on . Because it took that burden off

1:18:05me , that I just didn't worry about it ,

1:18:07and I’m trained to not read comments

1:18:09by my older colleagues from the theater

1:18:15, who say that you just shouldn't read

1:18:16such things . To such an extent that

1:18:20Marian Opania says you shouldn't read

1:18:22reviews . You just can't , because it

1:18:26sort of stays in your head

1:18:30>> and can paralyze you . No

1:18:31>> it can paralyze you . I remember , when I

1:18:36was at the beginning of , you know , my

1:18:38acting career , I read some comments on

1:18:40Filmweb saying I’m the ugliest

1:18:41actress in Poland , that I have

1:18:43something strange with my eyes , that

1:18:45I’m just weird in general . I took it

1:18:52so much to heart back then ,

1:18:55>> and today , like ,

1:18:56>> it’s just pointless .

1:18:58>> So I just don't read them , I don't , I

1:19:00don't read them . The only thing I read

1:19:03are comments on my social media

1:19:05profiles ,

1:19:07>> and social media is fortunately

1:19:11>> good in that people don’t bother to

1:19:13go and insult you on your own profile ,

1:19:15so there aren’t any such negative

1:19:16comments there . Sometimes , if I do see

1:19:22something , I just skip over it . I just

1:19:25try as quickly as possible to let my

1:19:27field of vision avoid it so I don’t

1:19:31dwell on it , because there will be

1:19:33haters anyway . I can see how terrible

1:19:37the public debate in Poland looks , that

1:19:39it’s actually unthinkable how much

1:19:41vulgarity there is in political debate ,

1:19:43which , for instance , isn't the case in

1:19:45Norway , where it's simply unthinkable

1:19:47for politicians to behave that way . But

1:19:51since we have permission for it at the

1:19:53very top , it’s no wonder people

1:19:54behave that way , but I think it’s

1:19:56terribly unhealthy .

1:19:59>> What helped you build your self-esteem ?

1:20:05Was that diagnosis some kind of

1:20:07breakthrough , participating in the

1:20:08program , how — how was that , building

1:20:10your self-esteem , rebuilding it , you

1:20:12know , after that childhood where you

1:20:14felt you were functioning differently

1:20:15than the world , and the rules were a

1:20:17bit strange and didn't include you ,

1:20:19didn't account for the fact that

1:20:20you’re different , and your

1:20:22self-esteem , well , you said it wasn't

1:20:24the highest . How — how did you rebuild

1:20:29it ? Did therapy help with that too ?

1:20:31Psychotherapy helped a lot . I think

1:20:33most of all ,

1:20:35>> most of all in psychotherapy .

1:20:37>> Mhm .

1:20:38>> Well ,

1:20:39>> yes , but it’s still ongoing . It seems

1:20:41to be an endless process .

1:20:43>> But what ? Did you set some bar for

1:20:45yourself or what ? Because you know that

1:20:46this might not end .

1:20:47>> It won't end . No , I think it won't end .

1:20:50But if it didn't end for Thomas

1:20:52Jefferson , why should it end for me ?

1:20:59It's just , it's always there , because

1:21:01you know , that inner critic , raised in

1:21:03childhood , very beautifully nurtured —

1:21:05it’s just going to be there forever ,

1:21:07so I’m learning to accept him , to let

1:21:09him just sit here with us , you know ,

1:21:11and criticize me . And I also understand

1:21:20, thanks to psychotherapy , that this

1:21:21criticism comes from the fact that my

1:21:23inner critic — as one psychologist

1:21:25wrote in her book — is like a gremlin .

1:21:30A gremlin , right , like you have a

1:21:32gremlin , well , that Gremlin just wants

1:21:34what’s best for me . He wants

1:21:35something for me , you know ,

1:21:37>> he wanted , he used to protect me , right

1:21:39, from rejection , from hurt , and so on ,

1:21:41to warn me . Exactly . So he has his , you

1:21:46know , good intentions , but I now

1:21:47understand that he is simply made up of

1:21:49all the worst fears in my family ,

1:21:51passed down from generation to

1:21:53generation .

1:21:55>> And do you have any fears now ? Is there

1:21:58anything I’m afraid of ? M of course a

1:22:06lot .

1:22:06>> And do you act despite the fear , or

1:22:08does fear paralyze you ?

1:22:09>> I think I act despite the fear . Yes .

1:22:12that I act , I act despite the fear ,

1:22:14because well , because now I understand

1:22:18that it’s worth acting anyway , even

1:22:20to expose myself , to simply do that

1:22:22exposure to the stressor .

1:22:26>> What should I wish you ? I wanted to ask

1:22:28you that at the end .

1:22:31>> Uh , well Małgosiu , definitely a

1:22:33meeting with you , so that I could also

1:22:35grill you about your life , because

1:22:36I’m very curious about it . How it was

1:22:42for you and what your doctorates are in

1:22:44? That is definitely something to wish

1:22:47for . You’re flirting . That’s not

1:22:48really a wish .

1:22:50>> What should I wish you professionally ?

1:22:52Privately .

1:22:53>> And professionally and privately ?

1:22:59Privately , I think , to continue

1:23:01nurturing those deep relationships that

1:23:03are the most life-giving , meaning well ,

1:23:08all close relationships , to keep taking

1:23:10care of them , because I feel that

1:23:11it’s something huge for me — I

1:23:13don’t know — I just feel , you know ,

1:23:15when my friends achieve something , I

1:23:16have the impression that I feel as if I

1:23:18were the one achieving it . Well

1:23:21>> proud , I’m happy , you know , my

1:23:23self-esteem just grows right then . Uh ,

1:23:27but in my professional life , I could

1:23:28definitely use a lot of wishes , for

1:23:30there to be interesting roles , and for

1:23:32me to finally manage to play a person

1:23:34on the spectrum . That would be nice .

1:23:36>> Alright , well , I wish you that then .

1:23:38>> Great .

1:23:39>> Thanks a lot .

1:23:40>> Thanks .

1:23:40>> Thanks for this meeting . Yeah .