Full transcript
0:00one of the best ways to achieve our
0:03goals and better ourselves is to not
0:07just focus on the present but the future
0:10my name is Matt Abrahams and I teach
0:12strategic communication at Stanford
0:14Graduate School of Business welcome to
0:17think fast talk smart the
0:20[Music]
0:27podcast today I look forward to speaking
0:29with how herfield Hal is a professor of
0:32marketing behavioral decision- making
0:34and psychology at UCLA's Anderson School
0:36of Management he is the author of your
0:39future self how to make tomorrow better
0:42today h thanks for joining me hey thanks
0:44so much Matt I'm excited to chat with
0:46you I'm super excited as well should we
0:47get started let's do it excellent your
0:49most recent work focuses on our future
0:52selves I'd love for you to describe what
0:54you mean by Future selves and share with
0:57how thinking about our future selves can
0:58help us in the present sure yeah so when
1:01I say future self I really mean any
1:03version of us that exists at some later
1:06point in time I mean so so look that
1:07could be tomorrow right but for the most
1:10part we're really talking about a self
1:12that's tied to some goal later on right
1:13so if I want to be healthy in five years
1:16so that I can continue to you know play
1:19roughly with my kids or whatever like
1:21that's a goal in five years that's a
1:22future self in five years but there's
1:24multiple selves along the way your
1:26question about how that relates to
1:28well-being now
1:30the the you know the big idea is that if
1:32we can sort of tap into the feelings of
1:35our future selves then we can do more
1:38that benefits them which may make our
1:40lives easier now and and later so it's
1:43really the next step or the next several
1:46steps and then we can think about that
1:48and make changes today that'll help us
1:50in the future that's exactly right and I
1:52think you know it needs to be said that
1:54some of those changes aren't necessarily
1:56easy I mean this this falls into
1:57anything we talk about when we think
1:59about self-control right um I I do like
2:03to consider how the changes we make now
2:05especially in the self-control
2:07realm um they don't have to be just
2:10sacrifices now right there can be
2:12benefits to doing the you know quote
2:14unquote harder thing right now it's not
2:17just that it's like all pain now and
2:19then gain later right I think that's a
2:21really poor framing that's not going to
2:24right get anybody to do to do the things
2:26that they you know say that they want to
2:27do right right one of the ways you this
2:30whole discussion is is time travel and I
2:32love that idea we have to think of time
2:34travel and you you mentioned now one of
2:36the mistakes we make in time travel is
2:38we we feel like everything now is pain
2:41for the future game are there other
2:42mistakes that we make in this future
2:45forcasting time travel that you're
2:47talking about yeah absolutely right and
2:49so I mean it probably we should just
2:51clarify when I say time travel I I
2:53really mean mental time travel and of
2:56course you know I think that's that's
2:57obvious right I think it needs to be
2:59said cuz it's a weird concept right um
3:01but yeah there's a bunch of mistakes um
3:03you know one mistake is that we almost
3:06fail to even consider the future it's
3:09it's not like people don't know that
3:10it's coming right um but like you know
3:13if pushed there are many times when we
3:15may actually sort of ignore it to some
3:17degree um there are other times where we
3:21we do consider it or we tell ourselves
3:23that we're considering it but we don't
3:24do it on a very deep level right right
3:27so um procras procrastination is a great
3:29example
3:30of thinking about the future but doing
3:33it at a very surface level I tell myself
3:35like I will do my taxes uh right next
3:39week next week keeps coming and I
3:41haven't yet done them and eventually I'm
3:43going to have to do them um and then
3:45there's another version of of this
3:47mistake where we we do think about the
3:49future but we don't consider that our
3:52future interests may change and we
3:54almost overly project our present day
3:57feelings onto a future self in way
3:59that's unfair to that future self it's
4:02it's like it's like the the analogy is
4:04like getting a gift for a friend or
4:06partner that represents something we'd
4:09want right but not something they'd want
4:11because we're not really thinking about
4:12them right deeply right so how do we
4:15avoid that so I know I am I
4:17procrastinate at times many people
4:19listening are procrastinators what's
4:20your advice on how to manage that and
4:22the other thing of not really
4:24considering the changes that happen to
4:25us in the future you know one of the
4:27first things to recognize I would say
4:30um is that I think it's okay to actually
4:33think of our future selves as if they're
4:34different people from who we are now you
4:37know in my my book I I talked to this
4:40guy Tim pickle and he had this great
4:42thing he said to me which is that you
4:43know if I don't want to do the thing now
4:45there's no way that future me is going
4:47to want to do it and and in some ways
4:50you compound the Pain by putting things
4:51off because procrastination by
4:54definition is not doing something and
4:57recognizing that you're harming yourself
4:58by not doing it right so when I put off
5:01doing my taxes when I put off cleaning
5:03up the desk area in our house I'm
5:06picturing it right now I know that I'm
5:09making life worse because it's getting
5:12harder and harder to do the thing I said
5:13I was going to do and I'm making life
5:16more difficult for my future self so
5:17it's like if I just do the thing now and
5:20then I can save my future self some pain
5:23and I can save myself some pain right
5:24now it's it obviously it's like a lot
5:27easier said than sure done right right
5:30um but I I but I do think that part of
5:33the solutions here are the recognition
5:35that the future self is another person
5:38and it's hopefully someone who we should
5:40care about and feel some responsibility
5:41toward you know would I would I inflict
5:43pain on a loved one right that future me
5:46is sort of like that loved one I like
5:49that idea of seeing ourselves as as not
5:52ourselves but somebody else I I use this
5:54technique and recommend it to people
5:55when they have to watch recordings of
5:57themselves yes and then give feedback I
6:00it's much easier to imagine that
6:01somebody else and what feedback would
6:03you give that person versus yourself and
6:05and you're right we would treat that
6:07person with kindness in a way that we
6:08might not ourselves so I think that's
6:11that's a great idea and one that I I can
6:13deploy a lot I have found in my life
6:15that procrastination actually has a
6:17built-in incentive it gives you an
6:18excuse right so when I put off preparing
6:22for a communication or a presentation I
6:24have and then it doesn't go as well as I
6:26like oh the reason it didn't go well is
6:28I didn't prepare so there's this buil-in
6:31Advantage I have and I and I have to get
6:34over that because part of that gets in
6:37my way as well yeah and I think that
6:39that concept of self-handicapping yeah
6:41is so interesting and I've done it I've
6:43done it too four presentations you know
6:46well I know I should be practicing I
6:47should be doing whatever and it's like
6:49it didn't go as well as I thought well
6:50you know I didn't give myself the best
6:52shot so it's not on me right and and
6:54then I can attribute whatever fa quote
6:57unquote failure right to situation and
7:00not to myself and somehow that's an
7:01easier pill to swallow that's right
7:03right in some ways it's the type of time
7:05traveling you're talking about but in
7:07Reverse I'm saying well only if I would
7:09have yeah that's interesting exactly
7:11when it comes to getting in touch with
7:12our future selves do people vary in
7:16their abilities to do this I know when I
7:18was in college in school I studied with
7:21Phil zardo who was a guest on the show
7:23and he studied time perspective and
7:25people are oriented differently some
7:27people focus more on the past present or
7:29future are there is it temperament
7:31experience how can we get better in
7:32touch with ourselves yeah I I I think
7:35it's so interesting that you brought up
7:36his work because it's closely it's
7:38closely related um you know in my own
7:42work we've found that people do differ
7:43right um in how connected how
7:46emotionally invested they feel in their
7:48future selves right the way I think
7:50about it is it's sort of like any other
7:52trait that we have some of the input is
7:57almost innate if you will um like we're
7:59born a certain way right some of the
8:01input though is our experiences you know
8:03what who's Mo who who's modeling certain
8:06things for us and what what you know
8:08what do we sort of absorb um over over
8:11time right and so I I think those things
8:13all do help explain the varying
8:15relationships that exist with with
8:17future selves are there things we can do
8:19to get better in touch so there's a
8:21there's a couple of techniques that I
8:22really like if we're thinking
8:24practically speaking um one technique
8:26that I particularly love is a a
8:29conversation
8:29that you can create between your self
8:33now and your future self so I love um
8:35the exercise of writing a letter or an
8:37email or a note or whatever it is to
8:39your future self and then writing one
8:41back oh wow um when I do teaching
8:44especially for adult Learners I often
8:46have people start by writing a letter to
8:48their past self oh interesting so I'll
8:50have them write a letter to themselves
8:5110 years ago to almost Grease the wheels
8:53because it's a weird thing yeah to do
8:55this and I fully recognize you know this
8:57is slightly uncomfortable to have this
8:59like you're stepping back you're you
9:01know you're confronted with like values
9:04and you know mistakes that I may have
9:06made and also things that I might be
9:08proud of um so I like to have people
9:10write a letter to their past self and
9:11then write a letter to their future
9:13selves call it in 5 years or 10 years
9:15and then and then do the reverse write a
9:17letter back give me an example of what
9:19you might put in one of these letters
9:21what are some of the mistakes you've
9:23made what are some of the things that
9:24you're proud of that's that's looking
9:26back right moving forward what do I want
9:28to accomplish what are some my goals but
9:31not just that what do I want my life to
9:32look like in 10 years because there's a
9:35danger in this exercise of being too
9:36anchored on the present which is why I
9:38think it's really important to do the
9:39letter back MH
9:41um but part of the import part of part
9:44of what's really important here is to
9:47make it concrete right so what do I want
9:49that future self life to look like and
9:51then in the letter back really talk
9:54about okay how are you spending your day
9:56days you know not a general oh I'm happy
9:59and things are good with my family
10:01that's just too abstract like what does
10:02a day in the life look like right of
10:05your future self in 10 years or 20 years
10:07or whatever whatever time period we're
10:09talking
10:10about the reason I think that's
10:12important is because we know that
10:15vividness is the type of thing that
10:18really provokes emotions and emotions
10:20are the things that drive behavior and
10:23so if we if we can just turn the dial up
10:26on a vivid perception of your future
10:28self that can really help
10:30connect you know who you are now with
10:31who who you will eventually become so
10:35being very concrete and specific I I
10:37love this idea I mean obviously as
10:38somebody who studies communication of
10:40having communication with yourself and I
10:42like the idea of writing to the Future
10:44Self and then imagine the future self
10:46writing back and and I can see how that
10:49one helps separate me from My Future
10:53Self but also can help me focus on
10:54what's
10:55important I think you hit the nail on
10:57the head right because I think um to
11:00some extent this boils down to a
11:02conversation of you know there's urgency
11:04and there's importance we know dichotomy
11:07right and it you know I think so often
11:11it's easy to get sucked into what's
11:14urgent right and we can just we we are
11:16really good at making exceptions for the
11:18dayby day oh I didn't get to the
11:20important things today but you know
11:22there was five fire drills you know five
11:24that five fires that I had to put out um
11:27but then those days add up over time and
11:28then we look back and suddenly say it's
11:30been months and I haven't done anything
11:32important right and so I think the
11:34conversation the communication between
11:36current and future selves yeah can help
11:39us really step back and focus on like
11:41what are those important things but then
11:42you have to do the extra work and say
11:43all right well right how can I
11:45specifically start doing those important
11:49things right right and and dedicating
11:51the time that's necessary to them right
11:54um I certainly want to come back to this
11:56notion because part of what you study is
11:58is how do we set goals and Achieve them
12:00and I want to come back to that cuz that
12:01is a goal uh I love that we're having a
12:03conversation about the communication we
12:05have with ourselves we so often on this
12:07podcast focus on the communication we
12:09have with others and the communication
12:10we have with ourselves as you're
12:12demonstrating uh can be very helpful
12:14yeah I I see a potential concern though
12:17uh what happens if I have this vision of
12:19my future self and I don't achieve it
12:22right that that to me could be
12:24disappointing and maybe make it so that
12:27I don't want to continue to have those
12:29aspirations have you looked at having
12:32those goals that that don't come to
12:34fruition for whatever reason I love this
12:36question so you know from a re look I'm
12:38a research scientist I haven't I should
12:40say I have not examined that in in like
12:44an empirical way right right right right
12:46um just let me give you an anecdote that
12:48I think is really interesting so um an
12:51napalitano she's a author she um she
12:54just wrote this book hello beautiful but
12:55I I'd come into contact with her a
12:57couple years ago around one of her books
13:01called dear Edwards she she had written
13:02an oped in the New York Times and in the
13:05in this oped she talked about how
13:07starting at the age of 14 she would
13:09write a letter to her future self in 10
13:11years MH and she would hold that letter
13:13and carry it with her and then she
13:15started this tradition of every 10 years
13:17she would write a letter uh she would
13:21read the letter she had written and then
13:22write a new letter and one of the
13:24interesting things that came out from
13:25this exercise is
13:27realizing just
13:29how rare it was to have things work out
13:33the way that she wanted them
13:35to and in now obviously this is just an
13:39anecdote of one right but she talked
13:42about
13:43how she is this beautiful moment in this
13:46essay where she says when she was
13:4834 nothing about her life was the way
13:51that she wanted it to be when she was 24
13:53and yet she was so much
13:55happier than she had been and she said
13:58oh my God my goal were so focused on
14:00externally uh relevant things and rather
14:03than like what I wanted and so I
14:06think what's so nice about that example
14:10is it highlights how just because a goal
14:13doesn't work out the way you want it to
14:15work out it doesn't mean that that's a
14:18failure necessarily like I would almost
14:20think of that as growth yeah or an
14:22opportunity for growth right and and an
14:24opportunity to revisit those those those
14:27values of importance to to to call back
14:29to what you were saying earlier yeah I
14:31think it part of what it does is it it
14:33highlights how the the metrics we're
14:36using for success or what we want change
14:38over time yes and and highlighting that
14:41and and becoming open to the fact that
14:44in my future self might want things very
14:46different and assess things very
14:47differently uh I certainly see that in
14:49my parents as they age what's important
14:51to them has changed dramatically and
14:53what's important and if I can remind
14:55myself of that it can be helpful yeah so
14:58let's tap into the other areas that you
15:01research in terms of decision- making
15:03goal setting and motivation what are
15:05things that your research and the
15:06research in your field share with us
15:09that can help us achieve some of these
15:12things that we aspire to in our future
15:14selves what are things we can do so we
15:15already talked about the letter writing
15:16exercise which I think is really useful
15:19um another strategy that I think is
15:21really important is a little bit
15:24different it recognizes that a lot of
15:26times when we have these sort of goal
15:27setting exercises is there's a tension
15:30between me now and me later right and
15:32the tension is that the person who has
15:35to do the hard work is me now MH and the
15:38person who benefits is me later MH and
15:41so one solution then is to try to figure
15:43out any way we can to make the sacrifice
15:48quote unquote of me now feel
15:50easier so I love strategies that try to
15:53break things down so um you know uh we
15:56have work on what we call temporal
15:58reframing which SS like a fancy term for
16:00basically like can I break something
16:02down into smaller and smaller like time
16:04units right so it's not that I save $150
16:07a month but I save five bucks a day it's
16:09not that I volunteer 12 hours a month
16:11but it's three hours a week or whatever
16:13it is um anything I can do to make the
16:16pill easier to swallow right now um I'm
16:19not going to go on a 30 minute run I'm
16:21going to go on a f minute walk and see
16:23if I can turn that into another five
16:25minutes and I think you know there's
16:26something that's slightly um like int
16:29there's very it's very intuitive right
16:31but I think it's it's important to
16:33recognize uh that exercises that we can
16:37put into place that do make the the
16:39sacrifice easier will will be beneficial
16:42to us right so um I also love you know
16:46along those lines um Katie Milkman has
16:49great work on Temptation bundling can I
16:51pair the sort of painful thing with the
16:53the pleasurable thing to make the
16:54painful thing easier um uh you know
16:58there there's there's newer work by my
17:00colleague at UCL Ali liberman on what's
17:02called tangential immersion the idea
17:04there is you have to be specific about
17:08the match between the the painful thing
17:10and the pleasurable thing so you know
17:11she uses the example of brushing your
17:13teeth you're supposed to do for two
17:14minutes right A lot of people don't and
17:16it's a really important thing because
17:18there's all sorts of other health
17:19benefits to doing this right and so she
17:21talks about you know if I if I pair my
17:23brushing my teeth with like a really
17:25engaging movie I'm going to stop
17:26brushing my teeth because the movie
17:28outweighs
17:29teeth brushing if I pair it with
17:31something that's like not that engaging
17:34right that's also not going to work and
17:35so it's like trying to find the right
17:36level of Engagement for the task can
17:39help me sort of maintain whatever the
17:41thing is that I'm trying to do right so
17:43I think that's really relevant um if you
17:45want to talk about other practical
17:47strategies another one that I really
17:48like is trying to think about commitment
17:51devices that I can put into practice I
17:53think a lot of I think a lot of your
17:55listeners probably have you know heard
17:56of commitment devices but right you know
17:58but one of the things about commitment
18:00devices and what they are is they're
18:01putting guard rails on your future
18:03Behavior so you don't screw something up
18:04right right we've known for decades that
18:07they're really successful if they're
18:09adopted right the hard thing is to try
18:12to get people to adopt them so I'm
18:14working on this exact thing this exact
18:18problem now with one of my PhD students
18:19Megan Weber one of the techniques we're
18:22using right now is to remind people that
18:25the obstacles theyve faced in the past
18:27will be the same
18:29as the obstacles they'll face in the in
18:31the future right so we'll ask people
18:34think about the things that made it
18:36difficult for you to study or to finish
18:38your presentation or whatever before
18:40check off the list now which of these
18:42things do you think will be present in
18:44the future and I think people have this
18:45ahaa moment where they say oh yeah right
18:49right it's going to be the same stuff
18:50the future isn't somehow going to be a
18:51magic time you know uh and then from
18:54there they're more likely to want to
18:55adopt commitment devices we're trying to
18:58see if this holds in like real world
18:59settings right but that's sort of
19:01Cutting Edge way to to to think about
19:03this so I like that again it's doing
19:05what you said it's that time travel take
19:07yourself from the present to the Future
19:08and we have that aha moment so a lot of
19:10this is framing a lot of this is is how
19:12can we pair what we what doesn't bother
19:15us as much with something that is more
19:17difficult we definitely talked to to
19:19Katie and Suchi hang and others about
19:21how we do that kind of thing this has
19:23been an awesome conversation uh we end
19:25every one of these episodes with the
19:27same two questions and I come up with
19:29one unique for you are you you willing
19:31to answer those questions let's do it so
19:33I notice like me you wear a biometric
19:35ring and I'm fascinated by this as
19:38somebody who talks about our future self
19:41and our goals um talk to me not
19:44specifically necessarily about the ring
19:46but what do you do in terms of knowing
19:49yourself today to help better in the
19:52future this helps me know a little bit
19:54more about myself in terms of health I'm
19:56curious I mean it seems interesting to
19:57me that you do that
19:59um I you've you've now opened up the
20:02floodgates right my wife has basically
20:04put a moratorium on me talking about um
20:07oh my sleep score wasn't good last night
20:09right so just you know specifically to
20:12the to the biometric ring I I think it's
20:14exactly what you said I love the way
20:17that you can actually get a full picture
20:19of your data right now right and and I
20:22and the reason I love that is because it
20:25goes back to something I said earlier
20:26which is that I think it's really easy
20:29for us to make exceptions out of any one
20:32day or any one night or whatever it is
20:35and part of the the value of tracking
20:39your behavior is that you see how the
20:42different points in time connect to each
20:43other right um and you can see how um
20:46you know I I didn't I didn't I ate late
20:50last night like it's not just impacting
20:52me last night it's impacting me over
20:53time right right so um look this is an
20:58area like outside of the Ring it's an
21:00area where I'm trying to improve you
21:01know like so you know one thing I'm
21:03trying to do more of is um almost like a
21:07an audit yeah every I'm I'm trying to do
21:09it more
21:10quarterly um cuz too often yeah it's
21:13easy to to not do it right um you know
21:17so I'm trying to do this at home right
21:19like how are things going we have two
21:21little kids and it's like there you know
21:22how it is there's all the different
21:24stressors that AR and well let let's do
21:26a check-in and see like okay how are
21:28going what could I be doing differently
21:32um I I have I need to I haven't done it
21:36yet I need to do that professionally too
21:38it's something I would love to do right
21:40and so I think that would be a it's a
21:42that's a good goal to have that I think
21:44well and I'm I'm sure you'll find lots
21:45of ways to support yourself in achieving
21:47that I I appreciate your cander there
21:49you know when I look at this I I am
21:51somebody who is a big fan of reflection
21:53and in order to reflect you need data
21:55and you need information and and you
21:57also need your feelings as well
21:59and things like biometric rings and
22:00other things give data that can then
22:02help you inform the decisions you make
22:04yeah and so I I I find it useful and I
22:06appreciate you sharing question number
22:08two who is a communicator that you
22:10admire and why um okay I'll give you
22:14I'll give you one this is on the
22:16academic side sure um so Wendy De la
22:18Rosa she is a professor at Wharton a a
22:21relatively new professor and she has
22:26become I think one of the the go-to
22:29experts in figuring out how to
22:30communicate information to get people to
22:32change their decisions for the better
22:35specifically people who are on the lower
22:38income end of the
22:39spectrum um and I think she has
22:42really brilliant insights into how best
22:46to communicate so I'll give you just one
22:47quick example and this is a project that
22:50I'm on but this is Wendy is the the
22:52leader of this
22:54um you know millions of people apply for
22:57government benefits sorry there's
22:59millions of people who don't apply for
23:01government benefits who are eligible for
23:03them and you start wondering why don't
23:05they apply um or when do they drop off
23:08the application process and in one of
23:10our this one project she realized that
23:13the way that benefit applications ask
23:16people to report their income is often
23:18not congruent with the way that people
23:20earn income so they say how much money
23:22do you make per year Well many people
23:24are hourly employees and if you get that
23:26question and you're worried that if I
23:27don't answer right I'll get kicked out
23:30what you do is you you bury your head in
23:32the SC sand and you drop off right and
23:34so she started you know saying okay how
23:36do you make your money is it hourly or
23:38are you salaried now let me ask the
23:39question right and I think
23:42what's so nice about this from a
23:44communication standpoint is that she is
23:46doing the perspective taking of how
23:48would someone understand this
23:50information how would it be received by
23:52them let me ask a question in a way that
23:54matches that and then what you're
23:56finding is that people are more likely
23:57to go through the appli application
23:59which to me is just a great example
24:01of of of the big picture of
24:03communication thanks for sharing Wendy's
24:05work it's really fascinating she's
24:07actually a GSB uh Alum and and uh we we
24:11very much appreciate the work she does
24:12yeah let me ask my final question
24:14question three what are the first three
24:16ingredients that go into a successful
24:18communication recipe perspective
24:22taking uh Clarity MH and simplicity we
24:26just talked about perspective taking
24:28very very clear uh you've been very
24:30clear throughout our conversation talk
24:32to me about Simplicity I think it's so
24:35easy to make ideas overly complex from a
24:39good intention perspective right we
24:41think oh my audience needs all the
24:43information out there that's how they'll
24:45make the best decision that's how
24:47they'll fully get the big picture and
24:48the irony is that in doing so we may
24:51lose a lot more folks right than we
24:53would if we were to just keep things
24:56succinct right right um you know when I
24:59was in sorry when I was in grad school
25:04uh one of the older grad students was a
25:06guy named Danny Oppenheimer um Danny is
25:09now a professor at Carnegie melon and he
25:12had done this great work
25:15on the this really sort of ironic
25:17finding that more complicated language
25:21actually makes you sound less
25:22intelligent M but but people especially
25:26undergrads think that if I make
25:28something sound lofty and big and Ed
25:30multi slabic words uh I'm going to
25:33impress my audience and and the irony is
25:35that the exact opposite happens yeah and
25:37I think it's so true with any form of
25:39communication um right I by the way I
25:41you know I do a lot of work with
25:43financial advisers and I find that from
25:46the best place they want to try to give
25:49all the information possible to their
25:51clients and that just ends up turning
25:53the clients off right so it's trying to
25:55keep it simple yeah the the notion of
25:57just Fus focusing on the bottom line and
25:59when we had Dan pink on as a guest he he
26:01said just talk like a human you know you
26:04don't need to impress you don't need to
26:05use big words just talk like a human and
26:07how you've done a great job of talking
26:10like a human keeping things simple and
26:11clear I really appreciate having you on
26:14the idea of having conversations with
26:16our future selves to better our current
26:19selves is one that I personally am going
26:21to reflect on and work on and I
26:23encourage everybody listening thank you
26:25for your time thanks Matt
26:30[Music]