Destiny LOSES HIS MIND at Jay Shapiro's Insane Logic

0:00For sure. Yeah. I'm just saying you're

0:01selectively quoting bits and pieces as

0:02all pro Palestinian people do and you're

0:04not giving the full picture. You're

0:05trying to sound like a terrorist the

0:06entire time. Uh,

0:07>> no. I I'm not I'm not trying I'm I'm not

0:10trying to to selectively quote let me

0:11get this point out because I think it's

0:12like it's

0:13>> but they would be allowed to migrate to

0:14that area. So, they're getting

0:15holocausted and now the Brits all of a

0:16sudden said, "Sorry, we've had too many

0:17problems with the local Arabs who are

0:19not happy with this." And so, they

0:20started to forbid all Jewish

0:21immigration. That wasn't because they

0:22couldn't make settlements east of the

0:24Jordan River. It was because they were

0:25banning.

0:27It's it's not a complex picture. What

0:29you're doing is you're misrepresenting

0:30the historical record by claiming that

0:32the terrorist attacks against the

0:33British, which largely started in the

0:35early 40s was a result of then banning

0:38all Jewish immigration.

0:40>> I didn't say that. Paul, can can you

0:41referee for a second? I didn't say it.

0:43Go ahead. And it was fun and I'm excited

0:45to do do more of it. Um yeah. Uh, so I

0:50have questions or things I would like to

0:52respond to that I think were maybe not

0:54from you or from your audience, but I'll

0:55save those. I wanted to start because I

0:57still couldn't quite pin down your

0:59position. Not that you need a solid one

1:02on Israel, Palestine or whatever, but I

1:03just kind of wanted and I know you were

1:05deflected this last time about sort of

1:06any shift or change that you have made o

1:08over, you know, the years watching this

1:10in the last couple years. If I could

1:12just take your temperature, like a scale

1:13of 1 to 10, warmness, 10 being like the

1:16most sort of excited and confident you

1:19are sort of defending Israel and one

1:21being like the least confident, like

1:23where where are you these days with it?

1:25And I know that's a loaded question of

1:27sort of like Israel as it currently is,

1:29Israel's government, whatever, but like

1:30can I just take your temperature on that

1:32just I can't quite pin it down.

1:34>> Can you clarify what you mean by

1:36defending?

1:37>> Yeah, I just how you're feeling about

1:39Yeah, I guess maybe that's even the

1:40word. Maybe you wouldn't say defending.

1:42Maybe you maybe you don't feel that way.

1:44You feel like you just sort of are a

1:45referee on the sideline trying to make

1:47sure people have I don't know um better

1:50conversations about it or factual

1:52conversations about it or like how would

1:55you just put that?

1:56>> Broadly speaking I I think I would

1:57defend like a Zionist perspective that I

1:59think Israel as it stands today I think

2:01has a right to exist as a Jewish

2:02majority state. Um I think they are

2:06making a lot of foolish decisions

2:07politically right now. Uh, I'm pretty

2:10salty that we have a really stupid

2:11president that seems to have gotten

2:13baited into dumb military action that I

2:15don't think the US should be involved in

2:16it all right now. Um, I think that the

2:20conversations around it are super

2:21cancerous in a lot of different ways.

2:23Um, yeah.

2:26>> Yeah, that's fair. Okay, then can I so

2:28can I go then to the Zionist thing

2:30because that is like underneath all of

2:31it is this difference when you said

2:35Zionist perspective. I'm not sure what

2:37Zionism means to you, but it's such a

2:39loaded word that I do think it it's

2:41worth sort of un uncovering and and

2:43taking apart. So, I mean, for example,

2:44like my last two essays on my show that

2:46I did, the last one was actually just

2:48does Israel have a right to exist? And I

2:50answer it in a in a no in 20 minutes

2:52with sort of a philosophical moral

2:54perspective. So, already we have a

2:55disagreement there. But the one I did

2:57before that was just flatout reading

3:00with a little analysis Jabatinsky's Iron

3:02Wall essay where he lays out in 1923.

3:05Then it was translated into English in

3:071937 for the first time ever in a South

3:09African newspaper, not surprisingly. Um,

3:11you know, his his what Zionism meant and

3:14means to him and it's on in no uncertain

3:17terms colonization of Palestine by

3:20force. These, you know, I have the quote

3:22I have it here in front of me. It's not

3:23very long. People should read these.

3:24It's not a book. It's like a basically

3:26equivalent to like a viral Substack post

3:28if he had written it today that lays out

3:31the plan for Zionism. And I know Zionism

3:33could be a big word, but like that. So

3:35when you say maybe the Zionist

3:37perspective or whatever, what goes off

3:39in my mind is Zionism is a colonizing

3:43project by its own definition, by its

3:46own terms. And I have a moral problem

3:48with that. So I want like I want to pick

3:50on that word. And I know we brought up

3:52colonization last time and I lean on it

3:53a lot and I'm going to do it again and

3:55I'm going to respond to some of the the

3:57audience uh you know stuff I got out of

4:00out of it, but can you just can you can

4:02I guess I'm asking you like what Zionism

4:04means to you there when you say the

4:06Zionist perspective. Yeah, I would take

4:07a pretty straightforward approach to it

4:08that I think most people mean when they

4:10say Zionism, uh, which is the the right

4:13of self-determination of the Jewish

4:15people, which necessitates a state that

4:17has a Jewish ethnic, uh, majority

4:20>> in Palestine specifically.

4:22>> Um, I mean, I mean, it doesn't seem like

4:24realistically there's any other

4:25alternative right now. So, yeah, I would

4:26say in that in that area right now.

4:28Yeah.

4:29>> Yeah. Because what's like what's ironic

4:31about that and I think think this

4:32doesn't get talked about enough is that

4:34in Jabotinsky's essay the iron wall he

4:37points out that you know the people who

4:40aren't just going to read it or aren't

4:41going to watch me read it or whatever

4:42it's not very long is that he

4:44understands that it's a colonizing

4:46project and the Zionists are colonizers

4:48and every in his in his mind every

4:51colonizing project is always met with

4:53resistance by what he says the native he

4:55called them Palestinian Arabs the native

4:57population of course they're going to

4:59fight us. And and he says, you know, no

5:01matter how lovely we are and how nice we

5:03are, we they always get fought. And he

5:05compares it to like the pilgrims getting

5:07resistance from the Native Americans,

5:08which was like ahistorical, but um and

5:11he said that, you know, there could be a

5:13solution to this, which is to go

5:14somewhere else. And he mentions Uganda

5:16specifically, which was the Uganda

5:18scheme offered by the British. It's

5:20modern day Kenya, sort of on the border

5:22of Kenya and Uganda. And he says, "Well,

5:23that's no good either because there's

5:24people there and so we'll get called

5:26colonizers there and we'll face

5:27resistance there anyway." And he goes on

5:30to say, "It would be even maybe possibly

5:32more immoral because, you know, the

5:33Africans are like are like children and

5:35they won't even know how to fight back

5:36and they'll they'll but they but they'll

5:38figure it out. They'll get white people

5:39to help them to fight back and we'll get

5:41resistance there." And so he's, you

5:43know, he's like, "Well, you know, we may

5:44as well just do this. We're going to be

5:46fought anywhere so we may as well just

5:48duke it out in Palestine." Um, but so

5:51like self I I guess are do you accept

5:55the framing of colonization or like what

5:57does colonization mean to you there?

5:59Because I'll just point out this one

6:00thing. One thing I wanted to respond to

6:02is I definitely use it a lot. Maybe Elon

6:05Pap and other thinkers do too. Um, I

6:08never get told I'm wrong, right? Like I

6:10it used to be people would chime in

6:11being like, "How could you say it's a

6:13colonizing project?" And then I think

6:14people have done their homework and

6:15they're like, "Okay, of course it's a

6:16colonizing project. Of course it is."

6:19the best they can do is say like, "Oh,

6:21you're just picking on them. There's,

6:22you know, a lot of colonizing projects.

6:24Why why aren't you talking about America

6:26or like last time we talked about

6:27Islamic colonization, whatever?" Which I

6:29which I just want to point out is we

6:33should talk about those things, but is

6:34not denying the ve the very basic

6:37premise of if Zionism is colonization by

6:41their own uh admission, they will face

6:44resistance and of course fierce

6:45resistance. So like do you accept though

6:47that Zionism even as you defined it

6:49there maybe necessitates or is

6:51unavoidably colonial or colonizing?

6:54>> No.

6:56Who are they who who would Israel be a

6:57colony of? I don't know if like a people

6:59moving to another country and then

7:00forming a country there is like a

7:02colonization project.

7:04>> Yeah. Well settler colonization but yeah

7:06they called themselves colonizers and so

7:08I'm using their words. So you could ask

7:09Jabbatinsky. You could ask the Lud

7:11party.

7:13>> This is what they are. They're out for a

7:15second. So wait, hold on. You say use um

7:18using his words. Um

7:20>> yeah,

7:21>> I'm I'm in what in what way would you

7:24consider like Israel a a colony?

7:27>> Um so colonization of Palestine. This is

7:30the the heading from the iron wall right

7:32in the newspaper that he went and gave

7:33the speech to every Zionist uh

7:35conference everywhere. And I mean I

7:37don't need to read the whole thing here.

7:39Um it doesn't need to be a colony of

7:41something else. It was colonization of a

7:43population moving. Can you give me what

7:45is the definition of colonization that

7:46you think Jabatinsky was working on?

7:50>> Um an an outside population

7:54um making home trying to displacing as

7:57he said displacing by force. I guess I

7:59can just read it here because this was

8:01actually in his ethics of the iron wall.

8:03He said, "Let us consider for a moment

8:04the point of view of those uh to whom

8:07this seems immoral." This was him

8:09responding to critics of it. We shall

8:11chase trace the root of the evil to this

8:13that we are seeking to colonize a

8:16country against the wishes of its

8:17population. In other words, by force.

8:20Everything else is undesirable, grows

8:22out of this route with axiomatic

8:23inevitability. Um so the these are his

8:26words that we are seeking to colonize a

8:28country against the wishes of

8:29population.

8:30>> I didn't hear a definition there. So in

8:31your mind is colonization just when any

8:33group of people moves to a place to form

8:35a country there basically?

8:37uh I guess at the expense of the the

8:40native population. Sure. I mean like we

8:43could get into whether it grew into sort

8:45of an outpost of the client state of the

8:47west generally.

8:48>> I'm saying it's not so it's not very

8:50fair because colonization is a heavily

8:52normatively negatively loaded term these

8:53days. And when John Minsky was talking

8:55about colonization whatever definitions

8:57or whatever is existing in his mind he's

8:59just talking about some kind of

9:00displacement of the population that

9:01would have been there. Um it wouldn't

9:02have been as negatively loaded as how

9:04people are making it now. And I don't

9:06know if he would have used that word or

9:07would have been okay with that word

9:08being used at all of the negative

9:10normative loading that it has now in

9:11writings that he's used in the past. It

9:13would be kind of strange to take that

9:14and just transplant the word and then to

9:16inject into it all of the normativity

9:17today that surrounds that word. Often

9:19times some of the most anti-semitic

9:20attacks made on Israel or on Jewish

9:23people is the idea that Jewish people

9:24are not from the Middle East that none

9:26of them have they can't trace their

9:27ethnic history back to there. That the

9:28idea of prior Israel existing that

9:31that's a myth in and of itself. And the

9:33concept of them being a colony is that

9:34it was a European colony that was made

9:36to extract value from the Middle East

9:38and that all of the people that were

9:39there now that are Jewish should be sent

9:40back to Europe or back to Brooklyn

9:42because as colonizers they are just

9:44foreign entities that are coming to a

9:45place to colonize it on behalf of

9:47somebody else. This is why I push you on

9:48what your definition for colonization

9:50was. I understand Jinsky wrote about um

9:54in in the Iron Wall about colonizing the

9:56place, but I mean he was talking about a

9:57bunch of Jewish people moving there to

9:59to to live there and that the Arabs that

10:01were there probably wouldn't accept the

10:02Jewish people moving there, which is

10:03which is fine. And and I can accept his

10:05definition of colonization there, the

10:06way that he uses it in a in a colloquial

10:08sense there. But it would be silly to

10:09take his framing of the 1920s or 30s of

10:11the word colonization.

10:13>> [ __ ] why does this keep disconnecting?

10:14Oh, hello.

10:15>> You're you're good. You're good.

10:16>> Yeah. to to take his negative framing or

10:18to take his framing of colonization back

10:20then and then inject it with all of the

10:21normativity that we have of the word

10:22today. So if you want I can for the

10:24purpose of this argument I can say that

10:25I guess it's a form of colonization if

10:27you want but that word I'm I would I

10:29would vacuum all of the normativity out

10:31of that word and I would just discuss

10:32the underlying concepts. Yes, 100% all

10:34of course. So if you're saying 100% all

10:37of it. So also I mean you should read

10:38the iron wall for someone who's so uh

10:40okay. So so so you know that he's saying

10:42what he's saying not just to live

10:44alongside. He's writing specifically to

10:47be the majority. In fact he says two

10:48nations would be fine with him as long

10:50as Jews are the permanent majority.

10:52>> Well he's saying that because he say

10:54because he acknowledges in the Iron Wall

10:55that the Arabs probably will never

10:56accept a Jewish population there. Which

10:58is true. That was true.

10:59>> But not just the Arabs. saying, yeah,

11:01he's saying like anyone, nobody would do

11:03this because he says it's bad to be a

11:05minority. The Jews know this better than

11:06anyone.

11:06>> Yeah. Well, he talks about this in a

11:08general sense, but he says in a specific

11:09sense as well that the Arabs won't

11:10accept any Jewish state there, which is

11:12true. So, that's just a true analysis.

11:14So, he's saying the only way that two

11:15states could exist there is if there is

11:16a majority Jewish state and then there

11:18can be another Arab state, but there

11:20could not be just one majority Arab

11:21state because the Jews would never be

11:22able to live there, which is true.

11:24That's that was a true thing that he

11:25said at the time.

11:26>> Yeah. They're they're establishing a

11:28state and it could have two nations in

11:30it. We could get to what he means by

11:31nation there too which is fascinating or

11:32what what what has come to be meant by

11:34nation in Israel which is fascinating

11:36but that the Jews Jewish will be Jewish

11:38majority and he says this he says you do

11:40not want to be a minority the Jews know

11:42this better than anyone right and he of

11:44course was yeah inspired by Italian

11:46fascism I mean you you can pull

11:48>> he was inspired by Italian fascism or he

11:50was inspired by thousands of years of

11:51persecution of Jewish people who lived

11:53as minorities in other states.

11:54>> Absolutely both.

11:54>> I think it was probably more that than

11:56the other.

11:58Do you think that Italian do you think

11:59that Italian fascism has been applied to

12:01the Arab minority population that's

12:02lived in Israel proper over the past 80

12:04years?

12:05>> You mean like that the Mussolini style

12:08thing of that that Jabatinsky brought

12:10this? No, you know, it's it's it's just

12:12I'm still just trying to get Are you

12:14okay, I guess, then with colonization in

12:16this sense because you're being there's

12:18a lot colonization is a big word. I get

12:20it and I'm even trying to get the

12:21normative out of it just to talk about

12:23it to get a definition here. Um, and

12:25your your first question was sort of is

12:27there like a metropole to feed wealth

12:29back to that's extractive capitalism

12:31whatever we could talk about that

12:32because I wonder if you think the

12:34American colonizers once America had

12:36declared declaration of independence and

12:38broken off from Britain moving westward

12:39were colonizing Cherokee nations like

12:42it's you know the word just

12:44>> I want to say there were no American

12:45colonizers as far as I'm aware there

12:47were British colonizers that had a

12:48revolt against the crown and became

12:50American but

12:51>> so so what this is I mean I think this

12:53is is interesting We're kind of all over

12:55the place. But what would you call then

12:57the American expansion westward

13:01uh and all

13:02>> my understanding is that typically we

13:03consider colonization or colonies are

13:06usually things that exist independent

13:07from the main body that are probably

13:09some kind of extractive force in the

13:10area that they're set up for American

13:12expanding. I think you could consider if

13:13you wanted to talk about colonization

13:14you consider like Puerto Rico or Guam

13:16maybe are more in in a sense of that

13:17rather than the expansion of the country

13:18itself.

13:20So, okay. I mean, yeah, this is

13:22extractive capitalism versus like

13:24settler.

13:25>> I don't know if that has anything to do

13:26with capitalism or anything else. It's a

13:27country. It's it's a new country

13:28expanding its border by taking over more

13:30territory from other I don't know if you

13:32call them nations of people or whatever

13:33the natives that would have lived here

13:35were,

13:36>> but it's conquest. Yeah.

13:38>> And conquest. Yeah. Go for it,

13:40>> Jay. My question would be okay. So if we

13:41put forward a definition of colonization

13:43>> Mhm.

13:44>> what I guess what is the underlying

13:47moral question that you would be getting

13:49at by okay whether or not Israel is

13:52colonizer or not?

13:53>> Yeah.

13:54>> Let's just say they are or they aren't

13:56for the purpose of this discussion like

13:57what what what why are you putting

13:59forward that question? What are you

14:00trying to get at underneath from a moral

14:03perspective? Let's say that they are.

14:05Therefore what then?

14:06>> Cuz like you know America's colonial

14:08nation, England, all these different

14:09places. Well, that that just like

14:11Jabbatinsky said that they would face

14:14resistance and it would be and it would

14:16be natural and it would be obvious and

14:18it has a sort of so I guess I'm putting

14:20the normative back in there. Whatever

14:22your definition of colonization is, I

14:23think we're all agreeing that it

14:24involves um expansion, hierarchies of

14:29ethno or you know privileges of national

14:31groups or whoever is there at the

14:32expense of the natives or the people who

14:35are already there to begin with and and

14:37it it will not go well for them and

14:39therefore they'll fight it and they'll

14:40resist it. And so this is I mean this is

14:42this was like sort of my my

14:46starting point last time or my finishing

14:49point and it's still sort of the point

14:51that I that I I'm getting on the table

14:53to start the ball rolling that it's yeah

14:55morally um sympathetic to to fight

14:58against that that the project in and of

15:00itself as conceived

15:03is

15:05a colonial one in the sense that it is

15:07dominating and we could call it

15:09aparttheid whatever else we want lump

15:11into it that it wasn't just some

15:13innocent, you know, live with our

15:15neighbors, we need a lifeboat out of

15:17Europe project. Jabotatinsky was pretty

15:20clear about that. I mean, I'm glad

15:21Steven's not like rejecting Jabatinsky

15:23as just some old like doesn't matter

15:25anymore Zionist. It really does start

15:27the ball rolling even way before 1948 in

15:31a way that really really matters. And

15:33then just one more thing to put out with

15:34the Jeabatinsky thing because I want to

15:35get to this other question on Israel is

15:39you could I'm trying to be sympathetic

15:41with him here. I'll give a sympathetic

15:42reading at least the way I read it.

15:43Stephen like I I think this is trying to

15:44be fair of like abso [ __ ]

15:46>> Well, here you can explain this because

15:48I'll shortcut all of this. So the reason

15:49why you want to use the term colonizing

15:51or colonies because it allows you to

15:52assume all of the normative sympathy

15:54that you would have had for the Arabs

15:55and the Palestinians in the early 20th

15:57century and to transplant it into modern

15:59day which I wouldn't agree with. Um, if

16:00you want to say that there was a

16:01sympathetic uh reaction that we all

16:03should have had to the Arabs fighting

16:04the Jews that came there originally, of

16:06course I'm going to agree with that.

16:07Every single Arab population was getting

16:09its own state surrounding them and then

16:11in the Levant you had a whole bunch of

16:12people that seemingly came from Europe

16:14and got out of country, you know,

16:15without you having much of a say in it.

16:16So, I'm sympathetic to the Arab

16:17populations there that fought against

16:18the Jews that were coming. But I'm not

16:20going to say that some conflict that

16:22happened 100 years ago gives somebody an

16:23enduring right to fight perpetually and

16:25infinitely up to the modern day. Hey,

16:27I'm pretty sure you could have

16:27territorial disputes all over the world

16:29infinitely with every native population

16:30if you wanted to do that. So, I find

16:31that conversation to be largely

16:32worthless because it just tries to

16:34assume a whole bunch of normity from the

16:35past and and for any fair definition we

16:37use if we're trying to say colonization

16:38exists in this way, we could apply the

16:40same thing retroactively to all of the

16:41calipites for the reasons why the Arabs

16:43and the Palestinians are there, but then

16:44but then it's pointless. So like why

16:46like Jews were there before uh you know

16:48before Muhammad conquered whatever and

16:49before the Ottoman Empire and the and

16:50the Caliphates before set up you know

16:52the the Muslim conquest all across uh

16:54you know the the near east and northern

16:56Africa and southern Europe and

16:57everything else. So what's the point? We

16:59don't get much out of that.

17:00>> Yes. So well the normative question is

17:02interesting. I mean we we could get

17:03philosophical and talk about sort of

17:04objective timeless morality if we really

17:06want to go there or we stay with the

17:08sort of normative time you know

17:09timebound contextual stuff which is also

17:11fine. But even if we're staying in the

17:12timebound contextual stuff, um, you

17:16know, the I think I think flattening all

17:18conquest and colonization into just

17:21like, oh, you know, it was just all bad

17:23and the world was all all made this is

17:24really missing a lot of important

17:26details of the way things changed. And

17:27last time I put a big emphasis on

17:30European capitalist colonization being a

17:33specific form, again, it's sort of a

17:34Marxist lens, but a specific form of

17:36aggressive global uh disruption. This

17:39doesn't mean, again, I'm just gonna I'm

17:41gonna pull the plug on this one. Now,

17:42it's not just that only white people can

17:44do bad things. Brown and black people

17:46can obviously do terrible things and

17:48participated in tons of that all over

17:49the world from Mexico, everywhere else.

17:51I mean, the Arab slave traders from

17:53Mosamb beacons, Zanzibar, like yes, this

17:56is not just like a white thing only. But

17:59it was it was a so if if I can do this

18:02that I think will actually maybe be on

18:04topic and help us and not shortcut it in

18:06this way is to be sympathetic in the way

18:08that I read something like Jabatinsky

18:10that I think matters here because it is

18:11the way the

18:12>> be sympathetic but like Jabotinsky was

18:14not the sole he was he was a minority in

18:17the early in the early movement right

18:19like I'm pretty sure he left or he was

18:21expelled I don't know it was called the

18:22Jewish conference whatever but like the

18:23the leading voices against him um which

18:26would have been Benurian and it would

18:27have and um uh uh what is it Kim

18:30Vitesman or whatever um these kinds yeah

18:32that these were voices that that were

18:34against Jabatinsky. He wrote that

18:35Ironwall essay because he opposed their

18:38silly diplomatic ways of trying to

18:40approach things and ultimately some

18:42could say that Jabatinsky was actually

18:43correct that the taking the diplomatic

18:45approach actually didn't work because

18:46the Arabs would never accept a Jewish

18:48population there which led to civil war

18:49until eventually a war war and then yeah

18:51here we are today.

18:53>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean and there's no way to

18:54relitigate that history. Manakim Bacon

18:56was the the Arab parent of it who got uh

18:58have it here like 12% in the first

19:00election but you know Bengurian only got

19:0235 or whatever in the first and so no

19:04one ever had a had a majority which is

19:05something that we should talk about um

19:08uh did yeah Manakan was the the hir

19:11party which then became the Lud party um

19:13but yeah but just just as far as so let

19:15me just

19:15>> that's a very quick shortcut he was also

19:17the the he was the Israeli prime

19:18minister that signed the peace treaty

19:20with Egypt he had a very big role he was

19:22also somebody who fought against the he

19:24fought against the Russians when he

19:25lived in eastern Russia. He fought

19:26against the Nazis when he was in Poland

19:28and then he fought against Benurion and

19:30the and the Haga when he came to to the

19:33shores of Israel. So I mean or well to

19:34the early

19:35>> but well he was in the Yeah. But

19:37>> he was in the for sure. Yeah. I'm just

19:38saying you're selectively quoting bits

19:40and pieces as all pro Palestinian people

19:41do and you're not giving the full

19:43picture. You might have sound like a

19:44terrorist the entire time. Uh

19:45>> no I I'm not I'm not trying I'm not

19:48trying to to selectively quote. Let me

19:49get this point out because I think it's

19:51like it's I I really am trying to be

19:53fair here.

19:53>> Okay. That was a very unfair summary to

19:55say that. Oh, and then his party became

19:56the liquid party. It was a pretty unfair

19:58summary of Bean's history. I would say

20:00>> of Bean's history. I mean, anyway,

20:02people can go back and read like, you

20:03know, the the famous letter from

20:04Einstein and Hana and stuff. He's he's

20:06not he's not my cup of tea, but he's

20:08definitely part part of the Jabatinsky

20:10and you're saying maybe maybe they were

20:11proved right by history. So, let like

20:13let me give like that some of some of

20:14that love to you is like the the

20:17thousands of years of persecutions of

20:19the Jews in Europe or whatever. like let

20:20me just let me just get some of the lens

20:22on the table that I think is uh you know

20:26defensible here in a way of you know I

20:29live in Europe. I'm in Germany right now

20:30and and like the longer you stay in

20:32Europe and the longer you stay in

20:33Germany and and the longer you I I think

20:35can start to understand the crisis of

20:39capitalism. I know this is like not

20:40quite the way you like to think about

20:42these things, but if you understand

20:43fascism as a way of capitalism is in

20:46crisis and a way to to prevent labor

20:49from organizing to you know lead the

20:52proletariat as Markx always wanted is

20:55fascists are funded by capitalists. The

20:57Nazis were funded massively by

20:59capitalists, right? And this happened

21:00all over Europe. And it was, you know,

21:02so the rise of fascism, which is a great

21:05[ __ ] way to prevent upset labor from

21:08organizing, right? Because when you when

21:10you inject fascism, and I'm I'll I'll

21:12give credit to Michael Pari here with

21:14this idea of rational fascism. When you

21:16inject fascism and you tell get people

21:17fired up about nationalism or their

21:20ethnicity or their religion or whatever,

21:22you you prevent them from talking about

21:24class struggle because suddenly, you

21:26know, the the poor Aryan German who

21:28probably in my eyes should have a big

21:30problem with the ownership and

21:31capitalist class of his country. Well,

21:34no, it's actually you're both Germans.

21:35You're both white. You're both Aryans.

21:37You're both on this good team. The real

21:39problem, the real bad guys are the Jews

21:41or the communists or whoever else it is.

21:43And it's a great way. This is like a

21:45classic sort of argument about fascism.

21:47And let me just like that thesis if you

21:49buy any of that at all exploded in a

21:52massive way in Europe where you have

21:54like these these these insane outbreaks

21:56of fascism and ethnofascism and

21:57nationalism which I'm with you like was

22:00leaving no room. I mean these are my

22:01ancestors too. No room for the Jews,

22:03right? This is an absolute disaster

22:06problem.

22:08And I could have some historical

22:11sympathy for even the Jabatinsky

22:14idea. I mean, I could see the problems

22:15with it obviously of like we're out of

22:18options. [ __ ] this. We need our own

22:20place. There's nowhere in Europe that's

22:22ever that we could ever survive. You

22:24know, we're adopting some of these

22:26brutal fascistic type methods and we're

22:28going to go take this. We really don't

22:30have any other choice. Sorry, Arabs.

22:33Like, we're here. We're showing up.

22:34We're taking this this space. Um and and

22:37he was like, "Well, we're gonna face

22:39resistance, but you know, we're done

22:40giving a fuck." And

22:42>> well, they were giving a [ __ ] and they

22:44tried to make it work peacefully

22:46originally, but that became possible.

22:48Well, that was the that was the stated

22:49position of

22:50>> of the Jews there was to try to make it

22:52work out diplomatically, and it was what

22:54the Brits wanted as well. And then that

22:55became impossible because there was no

22:56Jewish state that the Arabs there would

22:58have accepted, right?

23:00>> I mean, we could always debate that

23:01there's certainly no certainly no Jewish

23:03state. Do you think that they would have

23:04accepted a Jewish state in the Levant

23:07pre 1948?

23:09>> I don't know how big or how small. I

23:10really don't know. But I do know that

23:12someone like Jabatinsky was would never

23:15accept one where he wanted it with a

23:18Jewish minority.

23:20>> Didn't Jabinsky when did he didn't

23:21Jabinsky die before Israel was even

23:23founded?

23:24>> Yeah, maybe I think. So I So that's he

23:28was also a minority voice in the he was

23:29a minority voice in the in the early

23:30Jewish movement. he was pushed out in

23:32favor of voices like Bengurion and and

23:34Vitzman. So, I mean, you can cite him

23:36all you want, but I mean, I don't know

23:38how that I don't even know how that

23:39factors in here. Also, I'm pretty sure

23:40the way the Nazi party made most of

23:41their money was the fact that it was the

23:43ruling party of Nazi Germany and they

23:44were able to take and and mobilize the

23:46entire state to do what they wanted to.

23:47It wasn't because capitalist funded

23:49them. It was because they owned the

23:50country.

23:51>> Go ahead and look at Go ahead and look

23:52at at at who fund. You can read Michael

23:54Prreny's black shirts and reds and and

23:56look at the footnotes if you want. But

23:57it's I mean it's fascinating history

23:58because we're seeing it again repeat and

24:00and we should all be quite aware of it

24:02because I feel like we're all being

24:04played by it again. Um I'm just I'm

24:06using Jabatinsky not as a person but as

24:07an idea as a as a you know this very

24:10>> I'm using him as a misrepresentation of

24:12the entire early Jewish Jewish movement

24:14pretending that the entire early Jewish

24:16movement was a militant movement set

24:17upon

24:18>> I'm not you're the one who keeps saying

24:19that I'm making it an entire I'm let

24:21what can I say 10 15% an an important

24:24minority that had a lot of influence and

24:26weaponry. Can I just like keep saying it

24:28that way?

24:29>> On their on on what the the early Jewish

24:32nation settled for. Ultimately, it was

24:34not it was not Jabatinsky's ideas that

24:36prevailed. It was Bengurians who was the

24:37first prime minister for a reason.

24:40>> And you're you're saying well won the

24:41vote with with 35% or whatever. The

24:45first election in 1949 or yeah 19 was it

24:4849 but not 47. Uh but yeah, this this UN

24:51partition that they accepted or

24:52whatever, which was obviously much

24:54smaller than something like Jabatinsky

24:56was ever hoping for. Just as proof for

24:57that, just so we're all clear of like

24:59what uh and I don't even need to defend

25:01if the Arabs would have ever accepted

25:02any Jewish state in the in the region. I

25:04have no idea. Like I I'll say I don't

25:06know. I don't know how big

25:07>> I know they would not have. Yeah.

25:09>> Okay. But but so but but what we do know

25:11historically is that someone again like

25:13Jabotinsky even himself were were were

25:16setting off bombs and and attacking

25:19Churchill because Churchill was

25:21forbidding Jewish settlements. This is

25:23just the name they use the Jewish

25:24settlements east of the Jordan River

25:27which is now of course modernday Jordan

25:29not the West Bank but the East Bank

25:31something that is not even not even in

25:33in play. And so whatever was in their

25:35minds of this idea of we need and again

25:39I can have this like sympathy for it

25:43somewhere in the world. Okay, we're

25:45doing it here in Palestine. Where is it

25:46going to be? Like they never really drew

25:48it. We could talk about greater Israel

25:50and not the terrorist attacks that were

25:52happening. I don't think they were

25:53happening east of the Jordan River.

25:55>> No, but they happened when Church Hill

25:57forbade at least some of them forbade

25:59Jewish settlements east of the Jordan

26:01River. And they were not happy.

26:02>> I think it was when they I think it was

26:03when they limited all Jewish people. All

26:06Jew No, not this as well. This was the

26:08reason. It was because during the

26:09Holocaust, the Brits said no more

26:12immigration to the to the area. After

26:15the Jewish people had already secured an

26:16agreement in 1917 from the Brits that

26:18they would be allowed to migrate to that

26:19area. So they're getting holocausted and

26:21now the Brits all of a sudden said,

26:22"Sorry, we've had too many problems with

26:23the local Arabs who are not happy with

26:24this." And so they started to forbid all

26:26Jewish immigration. That wasn't because

26:27they couldn't make settlements east of

26:29the Jordan River. It was because they

26:30were banning.

26:31>> Go ahead and look it up. I think like

26:32you're on Go ahead and look up Church

26:34Hill forbidding Jewish settlements east

26:35of the Jordan River. I don't know the

26:37exact years where these were happening,

26:38but Jabatinsky, I think he was still

26:40alive for it because he he was part of

26:41the the group not happy with it. He's

26:43I'm not saying it's the whole story. You

26:45keep like I don't know if it's it's a

26:47debate tactic that you're trying to peg

26:49me as like painting. I know it's a

26:51complex it's it's not a complex picture.

26:53What you're doing is you're

26:54misrepresenting the historical record by

26:56claiming that the terrorist attacks

26:57against the British which largely

26:59started in the early 40s was a result of

27:01then banning all Jewish immigration.

27:04>> I didn't say that. Paul, can can you

27:06referee for a second? I didn't say it.

27:07Go ahead.

27:08>> Well, hold on. Because what's

27:11>> Wait. Okay. No, Destiny, sorry. Um,

27:14>> it's a lot of We're unpacking a lot of

27:16individual historical factoids which are

27:17relevant.

27:18>> Fair enough. In the final kind of

27:20overall picture. I guess my question

27:23would be

27:24what is the what are what are all the

27:27what is this historical debate? Can you

27:30tie this historical debate to the moral

27:33question now of

27:34>> whether or not Israel should exist as a

27:36Jewish majority state? Right? Because

27:38we're painting a picture with the

27:39different historical factoids, but

27:40presumably to get to a conclusion about

27:42therefore

27:44>> the morality of Israel as a Jewish

27:45majority state is this. And I think

27:47that's the substantive question. And if

27:48that if that is if part of answering

27:50that is getting into a more underlying

27:52sort of capitalist

27:54>> or or discussion around capitalism and

27:56kind of basic philosophical concepts

27:57around that that's fine. I think that's

27:59probably the lens that is

28:01>> most divisive here. So that could be

28:03relevant but

28:04>> you know the the history is going to

28:06endlessly be debated. Not that it's not

28:08relevant but I guess

28:10>> yeah Jay can you tie it to the current

28:11moral question?

28:12>> I'll do it. Yeah I'll apologize Stephen.

28:14I'll sidestep because I it's like I'm

28:15not trying to get hung up on these

28:17details. I think they're interesting and

28:18they matter because we're trying to

28:19glean intention from the history,

28:21whatever. Um, my punchline is and and

28:24what I would like to see to talk about

28:26more solutions because people like me on

28:27these channels, even last time, they're

28:29like kind of like what I'm saying a

28:31little bit, but I'm not really like

28:32presenting a solution. I talk about

28:34justice emerging and all this [ __ ] What

28:36I'd really like to see, and I think you

28:38would like to see too, we sort of agreed

28:39about this last time, is I want to see

28:41Israel write a [ __ ] constitution and

28:44tell me where its borders are. We've

28:46been waiting for this since 1947. Not

28:49many states in the na and and it's not

28:51the only country in the world that

28:52doesn't have a constitution. I wanted to

28:54write a constitution. Show me a

28:56constitution. And I think I I think what

28:59they're afraid to do and obviously it

29:00was like

29:01>> why doesn't Israel have real borders?

29:04>> What where what what are their announced

29:06borders that they've told us?

29:07>> Well, I don't know. Where do they come

29:08from?

29:09>> They they should tell us, right? They

29:11should define this. Tell us where they

29:13come from. Where did the where did the

29:14borders of Israel come from?

29:17>> I don't know Israel's borders, dude. Do

29:19you? They don't tell anybody. Their fi

29:21what is their final borders? Their final

29:23state of is Gaza and the West Bank. Is

29:25that Israel or not?

29:26>> Where do borders come from?

29:30>> Well, okay. All right. So, if Okay. If

29:32you're asking a question about

29:33international law and who gets to

29:34mandate these things, I think it's a

29:35good discuss discussion, but it's a bit

29:37philosophical. Should we go to

29:38>> a super simple question? I'm asking you

29:40where do borders between two countries

29:41come from? consensus space in our minds.

29:44They're [ __ ] pulled out of our ass

29:45and they're they're consensotely close

29:47to true. They come from a negotiation

29:49between two countries. The reason why

29:50Israel was founded with no formal

29:52borders is because all of the

29:53surrounding states went to war with a

29:55refusal to acknowledge Israel existed as

29:57a country. So, of course, you can't have

29:59borders as a state if the other

30:00countries around you don't recognize

30:01their existence. Now, they do have

30:03borders formally recognized with Egypt

30:05and Jordan. They never were able to with

30:06Syria because Assad there was I think

30:10but that's a a different story. But the

30:11the area to the north of them is because

30:12they've never had another leader that

30:14was been willing to come to the table

30:15and and recognize Israel as a state and

30:17then say that the borders as such are

30:19here. Israel cannot unilaterally declare

30:20its borders. It it necessarily involves

30:22a cooperation with the state surrounding

30:24you to do it.

30:25>> What what they can do I I think I agree

30:27that's a negotiation. But what they can

30:29do is announce or or tell us what their

30:32final borders are in their in their

30:34picture of things. Why not? Why not?

30:36>> Because you you do it as a negotiated

30:38position with the with the neighbors

30:39that you have.

30:41So, so, so why don't so if they can prop

30:43why why don't they propose what their

30:44borders are then to to everyone around

30:46them right now they they can do because

30:48the Arab League they don't want to

30:49accept Israel as a Jewish as a state

30:51they didn't they refused to Egypt was

30:53kicked out of the Arab League for 10

30:54years when they made peace with Israel

30:56in 79 so why don't why don't they just

30:58do this why don't they do this because

31:00this would be a really great point for

31:01the Israel defenders to prove your point

31:03that that they can go to the they can go

31:05to the right question it's a nonsense

31:07question you you you would have to have

31:08the surrounding states that would be

31:09willing to come together with Lebanon.

31:11Do you think Lebanon and Syria would

31:13right now acknowledge and recognize

31:14where Israel's borders should be?

31:17>> You can you can just propose this and

31:18say, "We're waiting for negotiating

31:20partners. Here's our borders."

31:21>> Who's Has anybody ever done this in the

31:23history of all of border propositions?

31:25No, this is not a real thing.

31:29>> Okay. Why don't they have a

31:30constitution? Let's go. Let's go to that

31:32one. If you think If you think

31:33announcing your borders is some By the

31:34way, the UN is Yeah. Go on. Go on. Well,

31:36if you think if you think that one's not

31:38not a thing, why don't they have a

31:39constitution? Cuz I'm telling you,

31:41>> every every state does every state have

31:42a constitution?

31:43>> There's only a few that don't. They're

31:45one of them. They were supposed to

31:46>> in the UK, don't they have like a

31:48parliamentary rule? I don't think they

31:49have a constitution. Right.

31:50>> UK does not have one. There's like 97%

31:52or so have about 4% don't. Yeah. Pick on

31:55them, too. I don't I want them to. So,

31:57so here here's like if you want like

31:59like my punch line is Paul of like all

32:01this stuff about borders and

32:03colonization and really what the endgame

32:04is here is I think I would like to live

32:08in a world obviously international law

32:10is failing right Stevens like where

32:12borders need to be negotiated we have no

32:14table where we can actually enforce

32:16these things it's completely failing the

32:17UN is obviously a failed or a failing

32:20project and I and I fear that we have

32:22World War II when it fails um what I

32:24would like to see is some sort of cooper

32:27operative global order that required

32:30this is sort of just an idea required

32:32all states that want to be legitimized

32:35to write a constitution tell us how they

32:38want to organize the principles of their

32:41society really clearly on paper as best

32:43they can we can disagree about things we

32:45could have socialist states and democrat

32:46whatever we could have but I think

32:48there's bounds that we would say are

32:50morally legitimate or not legitimate I

32:52don't think the Taliban would bring us a

32:54constitution that we would sort be like,

32:57"That's morally legitimate. You're in

32:58the club of nations here." And I don't

33:00think Israel can do it either, which is

33:02why they've never written one because

33:04they would. And maybe you and you know,

33:06you just think it's so easy to say that

33:08they can just write a permanent Jewish

33:11majority and be a democratic state. But

33:15there's no way with writing that that

33:17you're not going to write down basically

33:19an aparttheid state. And I think they

33:21just they won't do it and they can't do

33:23I think it would be rejected morally by

33:25most sane people and so they refuse to

33:29say this is just a deeply unserious

33:30goofy proposition because they don't

33:32have a constit Pakistan has ethnic

33:34majorities written into their

33:35constitution. So do a couple other

33:36theocratic states around Israel. The

33:37idea that they couldn't write a

33:38constitution that that confers

33:40immigration power to the parliament that

33:42doesn't even or to the explicitly like

33:45Jewish majority state written into the

33:46constitution. I mean they could very

33:47trivially and easily do that. that the

33:49idea that you would have to demand they

33:50have a constitution for it to be all of

33:52these just seem like weird goofy little

33:53traps that are trying to avoid proposing

33:55an actual solution like coming out and

33:56saying like they need to propose a

33:57council go to the UN and uni and

33:59unilaterally propose what they think

34:01their border should be like why that's

34:02not real that's just not a real thing

34:04they we need to force them to write a

34:05constitution why I don't the UK doesn't

34:06have I don't think Canada has a

34:08constitution I don't why why would it

34:09matter if they have to have a

34:10constitution they could have a moral or

34:11an immoral one they could have a a moral

34:13one that they don't enforce they could

34:14have a moral one that is enacted in an

34:16immoral manner in their like it's just

34:18such an I don't know like I've never in

34:20my life heard like a serious discussion

34:22on resolving the Israeli Palestinian

34:24problem that involves forcing upon them

34:25some unilateral declaration of their

34:27borders or the mandate the mandate that

34:29they have to write a constitution. This

34:30is just not a thing that matters that

34:32much.

34:32>> Well, it's maybe the first time you've

34:34heard it. I think it's a good one and

34:35you should take it seriously because I I

34:36I'm actually proposing all of those

34:38states you mentioned that don't have

34:40constitutions. I think they should. I'm

34:41not like picking on Israel here. I'm

34:43saying they absolutely should. I think

34:44like this is an interesting we're at a

34:46time in human history where and and why

34:49this matters to your point Paul and why

34:50we started on sort of this like detailed

34:52esoteric Zionism thing is clearly no one

34:55[ __ ] knows what the project of Israel

34:58really is. Jabotinsky was saying stop

35:01lying to everybody. He was talking to

35:03the liberal Zionist being like you could

35:05keep lying to people but our real aim is

35:07this which is what he said. And he

35:09wouldn't want to define his borders

35:10again. He was thinking east of the

35:11Jordan River. Whatever doesn't really

35:12matter. He was h he would be happy with

35:15earning, you know, by force that they

35:18would be forced to accept this agreement

35:19after seeing the sort of unrelenting

35:22truth of the power of of Zionism and and

35:24the powers in the world and and that

35:27would earn Israel this place at the

35:29table in the na of the you know in the

35:31nations of the world. Uh and it would be

35:33permanent. It would just sort of like

35:34announce itself in the world. The sort

35:36of like might makes right thing. I I I

35:38am proposing I think that would be an

35:40interesting

35:43uh proposition for peace, an actual

35:45solution of like let's make them write

35:47this out. And I think they can't do it.

35:50I I mean I think Israel is really

35:52they're about to have an election in

35:53October.

35:55I don't I don't even know if they're

35:56going to be able to get through it.

35:57They're all they're at each other's

35:58throats already. they don't know what

36:00their project is or they're afraid to

36:02admit it or they've, you know, grown so

36:04that that it's too brutal for them to

36:06actually complete the job. I would like

36:08to see them do that. I don't think it's

36:10you could say it's goofy. I'm not

36:12picking on them and yes, hold every

36:13country in the world to the same

36:14standard. If you're saying there's

36:15nowhere there's no we don't have an

36:17international body to do this to enforce

36:18this to be this table, I probably agree

36:20with you, right? Like you know who's

36:23America to say that we're so morally

36:24clean to be the arbittors of the world

36:26or whatever. No, this is a big problem.

36:28And but but I just think it's like I

36:30don't think that's a crazy thing to say,

36:31hey, Israel, what's the project? What

36:34how are you organizing your society and

36:35where are your borders? And if they

36:37write, we're a Jewish state and here's

36:39what that means and our constitution and

36:41here are our founding principles and

36:43here are our borders, we can evaluate

36:46it. I do if they write it now, including

36:48Gaza and the West Bank, then we're like,

36:50"Hey guys, that's that's an apartheid

36:52state." Or what are you going to do with

36:53all those non-Jews who live there?

36:54You're not a majority anymore. This

36:56seems to be in violation of your

36:57constitution.

36:58>> Why do you think they couldn't write a

36:59constitution that literally just

37:00enshrines them as occupied territories?

37:02Like it's not like the 50 states are

37:04included in the US Constitution. Our

37:05borders don't come from our

37:06constitution. Like this is just not it

37:08doesn't solve this doesn't go to solving

37:09literally anything.

37:11>> Wait. So So you think they could write a

37:13constitution that says the the West Bank

37:15and the and Gaza are not a part of

37:18Israel or like are sort of just like

37:20>> we have US the US has territories of

37:22people that don't have much of a say in

37:23our federal elections. the people in

37:24Washington DC don't have much of a say

37:26and they still have to pay federal

37:27taxes. Puerto Rico and Guam are US

37:28territories. I think the Virgin Islands

37:30are US territories. Like you could

37:31literally do this and still have a

37:33constitution. Like like none of this is

37:35solved by having a constitution at all.

37:37>> So it would be I mean it's I mean it's

37:38so I mean this is interesting now we're

37:40talking because it's like so because I

37:42haven't thought it all the way through.

37:43So you would think it's possible for

37:44them to say the West Bank is like a

37:46territory of Israel but but who's the

37:49governing body and who gets to vote for

37:51who and who's paying taxes to who? like

37:53they still have to work out all the

37:55detail there. Uh I don't know exactly

37:58how it works like in Guam, but uh you

38:02know

38:03>> couldn't they literally just enshrine in

38:04a constitution the way it's set up right

38:06now?

38:08>> They could. So I think they could try.

38:10Here's my thing. I think they could try

38:11and I think the world would be like,

38:13"Oh, fuck." Like this is we're not cool

38:15with this and we're rejecting this. I

38:17mean, I honestly just think that's the

38:18point that we're at. And if you if you

38:20ask me like in my heart of hearts again

38:21I'm I'm just Jabotinsky is useful. I'm

38:24sorry I keep bringing him up but he

38:26would if he could come if he in a time

38:27machine could see where we're at now

38:29because interestingly and for people who

38:31haven't read it. He's like he thinks his

38:33ends are peaceful. It's just going to

38:35like you know crack a few eggs to get

38:36there. It's going to be an unpieceful

38:37way to get to this peaceful end. He said

38:39he's like willing to sign you know a

38:41promise that he and his ancestors will

38:43never restrict the rights of of the

38:45Arabs which is interesting.

38:47But he was demanding that we will be a

38:50majority because Jews will never be a

38:51minority again because look what

38:52happened again. I have sympathy for that

38:54sort of like mentality. Um would he say,

38:57"Okay, this is enough actually." Like

38:59guys, we're a majority if you just draw

39:01it this way and like the iron wall is

39:03not working. The Iron Wall has been

39:04pierced for a million reasons. Maybe

39:06they were fiercer fighters than you

39:07thought or the geopolitics didn't work

39:09out exactly the way he thought. and like

39:11let's go back to 47 borders or something

39:13and give Jerusalem back and we're a

39:14majority and this is cool and we're good

39:16guys and and I'm hearing you Stephen

39:18saying like okay cool that sounds good

39:20there's no way that the Palestinians

39:21would agree to that or go for that you

39:23know I don't know I don't know either

39:25you know that's not my preferred result

39:26or solution at the end I'm obviously not

39:28a fan of Jabatinsky style sort of

39:31politics at all here but you know uh I I

39:35don't know I don't know how you respond

39:36to that but I actually I think this

39:38constitution thing is just like just

39:39tell us what the project is here guys

39:41because I'm sure you deal with people

39:42tell telling you about greater Israel

39:44and Erit Israel and Euphrates to the you

39:47know I don't know tell us what the

39:49project is tell us what the end goal is

39:51I just don't think even now like you

39:53said could they just write what they're

39:55doing now I don't think the world would

39:58go with it and I don't think they I

40:00don't think their own population frankly

40:01just wants to to see it codified I mean

40:04they're at each other's throats already

40:05and they will be again in this election

40:07cycle more than America Yeah.

40:10>> I mean,

40:11>> you respond to that, Destiny.

40:12>> There's nothing to respond. I don't

40:13know. This constitution doesn't do

40:14anything. Like they they have a system

40:16of laws. They have like they're a

40:17functioning democracy. They also have

40:19what I would argue are unacceptable

40:21conditions right now in the West Bank

40:23and in the Gaza Strip. So, I I don't

40:25know why you don't think like the United

40:27States had a constitution when we had

40:28slavery. So, I I don't know why we're

40:30thinking that like a constitution

40:31somehow would magically save the day for

40:33Israel. I I just don't know how to even

40:34engage with the with that argument. I

40:36mean, I think it saves the day with the

40:37Palestinians, but we could we could

40:38leave an aside. I just encourage people

40:39to think it through. I think it's an

40:40interesting

40:41>> Well, can can we talk about the whole

40:43greater Israel thing because this is

40:44something that's always brought up and

40:46I'd like to know both of your thoughts

40:48>> on it because Jay, it sounds like one of

40:51the reasons you think they're not they

40:52don't want to write a constitution is

40:54because there is a contingent of people

40:55within Israel that do want a greater

40:57Israel that do want Nile to Euphrates or

40:59some, you know, lesser version of that.

41:01And we talked last time, Destiny, I

41:04asked about, you know, Benny Morris in

41:05his interview with Coleman Hughes was

41:07pointing out that the right-wing kind of

41:09far-right Bengier type um voter,

41:13more children than the liberal secular

41:15Israelis, and that the demographic

41:16shifts are moving in such a way that

41:19that faction is going to gain more and

41:21more power and they seem to be the more

41:23progreater Israel people, however you

41:25want to define that. So maybe we can

41:27talk about I mean Jay, do you think it's

41:29a conspiracy? What what is your

41:31assessment of greater Israel? And then

41:33Stephen, how would you kind of

41:35>> I mean, it's it's obviously insanely

41:37unrealistic whether it's a conspiracy or

41:39not. I'm sure there's biblical believers

41:42in it and always have been. I run in

41:44from into them from time to time as

41:46well. I don't know how seriously any any

41:48of them any people take them. But the

41:50the the problem that you're putting your

41:52finger on there is like and this is also

41:55almost perverse is like were there

41:57enough Jews in the world who were

42:01willing to go to Palestine? And again

42:04around World War II not a lot of options

42:07totally sympathy for this. Um but it

42:10already probably you know not a great

42:12place to be because the fighting and

42:14distrust had already started etc. It

42:16wasn't you know if you had a if you had

42:17a brain to project that it just wasn't a

42:18great place to be. But were there enough

42:20Jews kind of in the world to to be there

42:23and create a sort of Stephen thinks it's

42:26a functioning democracy. I really don't

42:27think it's functioning. I don't think

42:29it's a democracy. I think it's why they

42:30can't write this constitution. But would

42:32you have enough Jews to form a sort of

42:35liberalish parliament that got together

42:38and you know was able to sort of keep

42:40its extremist fringes.

42:42>> Wait, was the US a democracy when we had

42:44slavery?

42:45>> No, I would say no. No.

42:46>> Were we a democracy when women couldn't

42:48vote? No. No. Absolutely. Were we

42:50democracy when we had Jim Crow?

42:52>> Absolutely not.

42:53>> Democracy until 1965. That's when the US

42:56became a democracy. That No, this is I

42:58don't know what the definition of

42:59democracy we're using here. Democ

43:01democracy is when good and no bad thing

43:02can exist in a democracy. That's good.

43:04That's

43:04>> No, I'm I'm talking in I'm talking

43:06infranchisement and a a you know, a

43:09government of and for and by the people,

43:11whatever that means. But really that the

43:12people have a legitimate say in in the

43:15direction of things. But wait to that

43:16point of America because I just did like

43:17an essay on this and I think it's again

43:19I'll you don't have to accept this

43:20argument but I think one thing that

43:22helps America

43:26is that in the Declaration of

43:27Independence it says we hold these

43:30truths to be self-evident that all men

43:32are created equal 1776 in the same exact

43:34newspaper that was printed you know on

43:36on page four is a slave auction and that

43:40moral contradiction has always and not

43:42the first to point this out right

43:43historians like Jill Leapor whatever

43:45have written about this that moral

43:47contradiction has always been uh this

43:51this thing this document whe not that

43:54it's God or whatever but this

43:55constitutional document I know that's a

43:57declaration of like here are the

43:59principles that we aspire to live by or

44:01we want to live by that people get to

44:03point to and say hey that's hypocritical

44:06I want that too am I not a man and and

44:08it's again America it's all nations I'm

44:11I'm an anarchist at heart right like I'm

44:13not going to sit here and tell you

44:14states are the best way to organize

44:16people to like, you know, find our true

44:18liberation. But we can argue about

44:19Thomas Hobbes another day. Um, but but

44:22I'm just saying that um sentence, even

44:26just that sentence is really helpful to

44:29have on paper to sort of say like, okay,

44:31those are America's principles and

44:33they're failing to live by them all the

44:34[ __ ] time, but we but at least we

44:36have this paper to look at and push them

44:38towards and they can, you know, we can

44:40all point to that in the world. I just

44:42wish Israel would have something and I

44:44know they've written their they have a

44:45declaration and stuff. I think that they

44:47don't know how to write that and this is

44:48a normative thing. So you are right when

44:50America 1776 wrote all men are created

44:52equal they meant men right and they went

44:54meant white men but they wrote men and

44:56they wrote they appeal to God and all

44:58this kind of stuff. I'm not trying to

45:00say you know America could write that

45:02today. They couldn't and be held you

45:05know by this by our standards now. Um,

45:08and in some ways Israel is really late

45:11to the party. I said last time like the

45:13world, especially after World War II, at

45:15least formerly, said, "Hey, we're going

45:16to start deolonizing." And it's been a

45:18long struggle. And that's why the

45:20colonization framing is is useful for me

45:23of like, well, there's this one project

45:24called Israel that's still trying to do

45:26this like very 20th century style, maybe

45:3019th century style colonization, even

45:32the way they think about race to a

45:34degree, out there in Palestine. and it

45:36just sticks out like a sore thumb. And

45:40to the to the Jabatinsky style Jew who

45:43thinks, well, [ __ ] a America got to

45:45get a seat at the table and they did all

45:47this crazy [ __ ] We're just trying to

45:49take our seat amongst the nations. This

45:50is actually something my mom I grew up

45:52in a Zionist uh liberal Zionist family.

45:54She used to say like Israel taking its

45:56place amongst the nations, taking its

45:57seat amongst the nations. And how did

46:00everyone else get a seat amongst the

46:01nations in our sort of consensus minds?

46:03Pretty brutal colonization ways, right?

46:05And so like I I understand the kind of

46:09moves that you're making or the Zionist

46:11wants to make of like what the [ __ ] like

46:13we're trying to do exactly what you did

46:15and and obviously I'm with you like less

46:18less brutal in some ways or less

46:20obviously racist in some ways. Um so

46:24yeah anyway you can respond to that but

46:26I just think it's another point in favor

46:27of like it was helpful to have that

46:29constitution but yeah I'm not trying to

46:31be sort of you know precious about the

46:33word democracy here.

46:36I don't I don't know if there's a

46:37question. I I just you can have a

46:40constitution. You know, you said it

46:41yourself. You didn't consider America, I

46:42guess, a real democracy until 1960s. So,

46:45I mean, felons can't vote right now.

46:47Some people would argue the voting age

46:48is unethical. That you can work and pay

46:50taxes as a 16-year-old and you're not

46:52allowed to vote. So, I mean, are like,

46:54if we allow children up to the age of 16

46:56to vote um in the future, does that mean

46:58we weren't a democracy until then?

47:00You're just I think you're you're trying

47:02to you're trying to save the argument by

47:04by tautology. You're just trying to

47:06define away things that you don't like

47:07as being not democracy and define the

47:09things that you want as democracy and

47:10then say that if we consider ourselves a

47:12democracy, then that means that we

47:13should aspire to the semantic content

47:15that you load democracy with. The same

47:16way that you're quoting Jabotatinsky and

47:18his use of the word colonization and

47:19you're trying to normatively load it

47:20today, you're injecting it with the

47:21normativity that we have today with the

47:22term colonization when he never would

47:23have meanted in the past as being a

47:25negative thing. So, I mean like I don't

47:26know. Um, yeah. I just there's not much

47:29there's like not much to deal with

47:30there. Like if they just write a

47:31constitution, like there's a million

47:33ways that you could write a constitution

47:34that would un that would enshrine the

47:36exact same unethical position that

47:38Israel holds today. I'm sure that you

47:39think that the United States is an

47:41unethical country and we have the

47:42longest enduring constitution of any

47:43country on the planet. So I I just the

47:45idea that this would be a good thing or

47:47this would get us any closer to solving

47:48any problem is just it's there's no

47:50foundation for it.

47:51>> I I think it would help. No, I'll just

47:53I'm going to let you ask a question

47:54here, Paul, but I would object to I'm

47:56going to edit one thing. I don't know if

47:57Jabatinsky would say colonization is

47:59like a super negative normative thing.

48:00You might be right. He absolutely would

48:02say it's a brutal thing. It's a brutal

48:04thing and that it that it is um yeah, he

48:07he might say a necessary but brutal

48:09process to the natives. Let me just use

48:11that word brutal, but he might not say

48:13it's like bad. He just says like that's

48:15that's the way [ __ ] goes basically.

48:17>> Which was true after he wrote it was

48:19just coming off the end of World War I.

48:21you saw the collapse of three great

48:23empires at least like I mean so I mean

48:25yeah the the whole world was still

48:27taking shape and even coming to a mutual

48:28understanding of what it meant to be a

48:29nation or a country or to have borders

48:32or to conquer or to whatever so

48:34>> I I I we agree on that like it was true

48:37it was brutal and going to face

48:39resistance and I think uh yeah that's

48:43kind of that yeah he's not saying we're

48:45evil and we're going to do an evil thing

48:46he was saying we're doing a necessary

48:48thing we have no options we're going to

48:50face resistance since it's going to be

48:52bloody. Yeah. And so get ready for it.

48:54Yeah.

48:56>> I think it would be good to get into the

48:58underlying kind of philosophical debate

48:59that is almost

49:01>> uh can be had separate from Israel

49:03Palestine. I mean that can be the foil

49:05to bring things back but because

49:08we're all I guess approaching things

49:10from a different fundamental

49:11philosophical lens. So Jay when you say

49:12you're an anarchist

49:14>> Mhm. In my mind, that's, you know, a lot

49:17of

49:18teenage larpers meme lording as we're

49:20going to abolish the government and all

49:22that. So what is the what is your

49:25conception of anarchy that is presumably

49:28realistic and moral and involves you

49:30know not having a

49:34collapsed state uh and warlords you know

49:36running around like what is

49:38>> what is your conception of anarchy that

49:40you're

49:40>> I'll give you like the simple definition

49:42that I sort of got from Sophie Scott

49:44Brown which is just that anarch anarchy

49:46or anarchism is a a denial or refusal to

49:50have permanent hierarchy hierarchies to

49:52solve problems. You can certainly have

49:54meetings and and then of course the

49:55question is how do you know when the

49:56problem's over? There's all kinds of

49:58problems with it. I I just want to say

50:00like I I I use the word anarchy as an

50:03adjective more than sort of a a thing

50:05and probably democracy as well. Like

50:06there's anarchistic thought which aims

50:09to have sort of like horizontal uh you

50:11know decision-m you can certainly have a

50:14boss. You can certainly elect a boss but

50:16it can't be a permanent boss to solve

50:17all problems. You could have experts and

50:19all these kinds of things. There's I'll

50:21just say this because it's it's too big

50:22of a topic for a debate. Um and probably

50:25off too far off where we're going to go,

50:27but I too until like maybe like the last

50:29five or six years would have pegged just

50:31like sex pistols and you know anarchy,

50:33you know, red spray paint on the wall as

50:35this silly unrealistic thing. And still

50:38I until I started to take it a little

50:40more seriously about the history of it.

50:42Like Prude Home is a name people are

50:43going to want to look up. Uh you you're

50:45going to want to look up things like in

50:47Barcelona where they actually had

50:48decades of basically an anarchistic

50:51successful commune situation near

50:54Barcelona which was then crushed by the

50:56fascists. Um it's situations there that

50:59that that they're certainly anti-

51:01capitalist which I think is more of

51:02where I wish where I would probably take

51:04this debate with Stephen or this

51:06conversation with Steven because I'm not

51:07going to sit here and defend anarchy but

51:09but I'll tell you at the base of it I'll

51:11defend this part of it and I mentioned

51:12him once already. Thomas Hobbes is the

51:15philosopher who is is the one that

51:17anarchists have to contend with because

51:19at its at its base, anarchy rejects this

51:23notion that that humans are unavoidably

51:26naturally

51:28um competitive and brutal and you know

51:31that we need states to keep us safe from

51:33ourselves and from each other. So it was

51:35people like Krypotkin you can look into

51:36who fiercely disagreed with Marx. He was

51:39a he was an anarchist communism. He he

51:41wrote the book Mutual Aid and the

51:42Conquest of Bread. So, I'm just I'm just

51:44putting this out there for the listeners

51:45who are like, "What the [ __ ] anarchy?"

51:47Like, there's serious good thinkers in

51:49history to talk about here. Um, but I'd

51:52rather talk about the anti- capitalist

51:56positions that I that I that I probably

51:58have, which are anarchistic, but a

51:59bigger tent.

52:00>> Yeah, that's fine. I mean maybe like I

52:03mean where do you think I guess in the

52:06simplest sense like can you put forward

52:07an anti- capitalist position that you

52:09think most people including Stephen

52:11would

52:13>> disagree with and you know something

52:15that most people take for granted that

52:17you think is just wrong because we do

52:19operate in a

52:20>> something resembling a capitalist

52:22system.

52:23>> Yeah.

52:23>> Um dependent define it. So what I mean

52:26>> when you when when you say you're anti-

52:28capitalist what does that mean like in

52:29the most consequential sense?

52:30>> Yeah. I'll lay it out this way and then

52:33I would love see because I'm just gonna

52:34try this and I would love Stephen to

52:36respond to it is like a lot the

52:37socialism which is clearly a word that's

52:38back in the US which is interesting but

52:41socialism communism Marxism whatever

52:44and capitalism I think sometimes gets

52:46really like we get confused about it

52:47because they are as Stephen keeps saying

52:49like super loaded at this point there's

52:50so much that comes in um but in some in

52:53some sense I like to think about it

52:55philosophically in sort of a toy

52:57universe of these two different kinds of

52:59problems that I think of. So, let's say

53:02on, you know, this podcast we're three

53:04humans in a toy universe. And um Steven

53:07wants to, you know, uh make uh t-shirts.

53:11He just like thinks that's cool. It's a

53:13human need. Humans need t-shirts. We

53:15need we need to protect ourselves. And I

53:16want to make t-shirts. And Steven's

53:18like, "Cool." You know, I have this cool

53:19idea for one and this cool design. I'm

53:21going to make t-shirts and I'm going to

53:23set them at a price given the currency

53:25of whatever we're using in my community.

53:27Um sort of as as high as I can. And I'm

53:29going to have help people help, you

53:30know, get workers to help make them. And

53:31I'm going to sell them at the price as

53:32high as I can. What people are willing

53:34to pay. Like if if they're selling a

53:35lot, I'm going to raise the price. And

53:37if I reach this point where I realize

53:38people are aren't buying as much, I'm

53:40going to I'm going to stop there. And

53:41that's going to be the price. We're all

53:43very familiar with that. This is

53:44capitalism, right? And I'll keep the

53:46surplus and this will be a business and

53:47the surplus and I won't pay my workers

53:49as whatever as much, but it'll all work

53:51out. That's what we call capitalism. But

53:53I say, you know, I see some problems

53:54with that. it's like a bad idea and I've

53:56for I see it going in in really bad ways

53:58and so I have a different idea instead.

54:00Um I'm going to figure out how many

54:02t-shirts the community wants and needs

54:05and I'm going to I'm going to make them

54:07sort of and set them at a price based on

54:10sort of how much labor goes into them in

54:12this abstract way of how many labor

54:14hours go into each shirt that gets made

54:16and that's going to be the price. and

54:18then we're going to sort of plan this,

54:20you know, centrally in the world and

54:23that's how we're going to get t-shirts

54:24into my society. And I'm describing, you

54:26know, pure socialism, right? And I and I

54:29and that's just like sort of an innocent

54:31starting point, but you could see

54:32already that we can't share currency,

54:35right? Like because Steven's t-shirts,

54:37the currency that's operating in his

54:38world is this capitalist currency that

54:40has a certain very fluid value based on

54:43desires and needs or whatever. And it's

54:45very fluid and it goes different places

54:46and mine is like fixed in this very

54:48different way to calculate. And so we

54:50can't actually like live together very

54:53closely. We might have to build a wall

54:55in between ourselves, right? Which ends

54:57up happening a lot. So already you get

55:00this problem of of like he has

55:01capitalist t-shirts and and and I can't

55:03really buy his products because they're

55:05they're just calculated in a totally

55:07different way than mine. So suddenly

55:08it's like dirty capitalist products and

55:10I have communist t-shirts and we have

55:11these different things and we have these

55:12two different systems. Now, I'll say I

55:16they both can fail for different

55:18reasons. The Marxist looks at the

55:20capitalist system and he's done he did

55:22all this math and whatever and figured

55:23out surplus value and figured out all

55:25these phases that it's going to, you

55:26know, uh lead to over production and

55:29then it's going to need to consume more

55:31and it's and it's alienation. Every I

55:33hope people are familiar with Marx's

55:35really good criticism of capitalism. no

55:36matter if you think he had the right

55:38solution after he talked about all of

55:40the potential problems of capitalist

55:43overconumption, let alone sort of the

55:45psychological problems of living with

55:46it. And that might happen, right? And

55:49the the socialist one or even say

55:50communists in a political way can also

55:53fail because it's like well if I make

55:55shitty t-shirts but I have to pay

55:56everyone the same you know they're not

55:58as incentivized to work as hard and

56:00maybe it get gets corrupt and I start

56:02start skimming off the top or I start

56:04saying you know these people ordered

56:05more t-shirts than they needed and I put

56:07them more in my pocket like basically

56:08what happened maybe in parts of the

56:10Soviet Union. And so in general, this is

56:12like the the takeaway point as I see it

56:15and I think as Mark saw it too is they

56:18both might fail, but socialism when it

56:21fails decays and shelves start being

56:24which is not great, right? Shelves are

56:26being empty and there's starvation and

56:27there's different problems. But

56:28capitalism when it fails it explodes

56:31because it over consumed and it needs to

56:33find more markets to exploit because

56:35it's you know printing out too much

56:37currency and it needs to sell its [ __ ]

56:38somewhere. So it needs to like invade

56:40more so

56:43world. And again, I'm not going to

56:46defend either of them. This is why I'm

56:47more anarchistic. But I think socialism

56:50decays and capitalism explodes is

56:53there's something true about it in a

56:55Marxist lens. And to go back to connect

56:57it to this political stuff we're talking

56:59about, and I hinted at it earlier, you

57:02know, the cap the the the anti-

57:04capitalist sees World War I and World

57:06War II as capitalist crisis and wars

57:09that capitalism is this underlining

57:11assumption that led to all those dead

57:14bodies, right? And and and that's where

57:17in that world you get these rises of

57:19fascism and you get all these things and

57:20Zionism comes out of that world. But

57:21I'll leave it there of sort of like

57:23that's why I

57:27am an anti- capitalist, put it that way.

57:31>> I mean, there were plenty of wars for

57:33exploitation on this planet far before

57:35capitalism and mercantalism appeared.

57:38Um, I mean, we can look at the it's not

57:40like the Soviet Union was without its

57:42satellite states that it worked as an

57:43extractive entity over. Um, it's not

57:45like the Soviet Union didn't partner

57:47with Nazi Germany when it came time to

57:49divide up Poland. um you know it's not

57:51like socialist regimes have never failed

57:54before in in semi fantastic fashion. I

57:56mean like the idea that um I don't know

57:59the the idea that all the evils of the

58:01world are necessitated by capitalism

58:03because they happen to occur when

58:05capitalists entities exist I think is a

58:08is a bit of a naive thought process. The

58:09idea that things couldn't be worse than

58:10they are now or the idea that you know

58:12absent capitalism we'd be doing way

58:14better when when that model just hasn't

58:16been proven anywhere. And I don't have

58:17any reason to think that would be the

58:19case. Um, again, like these are

58:21hypotheticals that have been tried in

58:23reality that have failed miserably, but

58:24for some reason we're encouraged that

58:25the hypothetical will work next time. I

58:27don't know how I can ever possibly

58:28engage with that. Like I don't like

58:30you're going to tell me basically that

58:31in that society where I want to make

58:32shirts, I'm not allowed to hire an

58:34employee. Like that would be illegal in

58:36your society. You can't do it. And I I

58:38just can't conceive of a way to make

58:39that society function. And it doesn't

58:42seem that there's any place on the

58:43planet that has ever made a society like

58:45that function. So I I Yeah.

58:48>> Yeah. Are there are there practical

58:49prescriptions like laws you would

58:52advocate like tomorrow like tomorrow? I

58:53mean or like like what what what are the

58:56practical steps that you would want

58:58people to begin taking or governments to

59:00begin taking to move towards society

59:02that is more

59:04>> well I think at the whatever the interim

59:06is you would have to ban all

59:07oppositional political parties that

59:10advocate for different modes of

59:12production. So capitalism would have to

59:13be banned. That means no more owners, no

59:15more owners, no more employees, no more

59:17starting a business where you hire

59:18people. And it would mean oppositional

59:20political parties that were liberal

59:21parties um that were advocating for some

59:22kind of capitalism would also

59:24necessarily have to be banned because

59:25these are going to be seen as not only

59:26oppositional economically, but they're

59:27going to be oppositional politically and

59:30arguably revolutionary in your country

59:32if it was a socialist country. So that

59:33that would have to happen, which has

59:35happened in, you know, your vanguard

59:36party states. So I mean, I don't know.

59:39It's kind of

59:40>> So Jay, are you banning my Tucker

59:42Carlson, Marjorie Taylor Green

59:44Nationalist ticket then?

59:46>> I mean, I'm not I'm not banning

59:47anything. This this is a problem in

59:49socialism and in communism. I agree that

59:51they they um you know, someone like

59:53Fidel Castro famously said like, listen,

59:56we guys we can have disscent, but you

59:58can't be against the revolution. And

1:00:00then that became this a bit like, well,

1:00:02what's the revolution? And became a

1:00:04little bit more narrowly defined. Um but

1:00:06yeah like trying to overthrow so just

1:00:08the one thing I want to point out to

1:00:10there then again is like I didn't say

1:00:11all evils in the world are due to

1:00:13capitalism but I by any means um but

1:00:16when you say like socialism and

1:00:18communism failed has failed

1:00:20spectacularly

1:00:21uh yeah and of course from the outside

1:00:23it also looks like that but I hope

1:00:25people can see in that sort of toy

1:00:26universe they always again this is

1:00:27oversimpl over oversimplification but

1:00:29felt like they were under siege from

1:00:31capitalist [ __ ] with them and not

1:00:33wanting not allowing them to evolve. in

1:00:35any kind of way. But nothing has been

1:00:38allowed to evolve in its own little

1:00:40vacuum in its own little capitalism

1:00:42though.

1:00:44What do you mean? The United States was

1:00:46under

1:00:48>> we were funding I don't know domino

1:00:50theory. We were all funding different

1:00:51proxy wars across the planet to see

1:00:54whose economic and political theory

1:00:56would ultimately reign supreme. There

1:00:57was the Korean war. There was the

1:00:58Vietnam war. We had the entire cold war

1:01:00that involved the Cuban missile crisis

1:01:01and the nuclear arms race against each

1:01:03other. We were funding different sides

1:01:05of wars in the Middle East like

1:01:06Afghanistan. You had communist entities

1:01:08who were being funded in South America

1:01:10and then the US supporting fascist

1:01:12entities sometimes on the other end of

1:01:12that. I mean what like there were wars

1:01:14everywhere over this. What do you mean?

1:01:16>> But the but the Yes, but the capital So

1:01:18yeah, but who like the capitalists were

1:01:21Why were the capitalists fighting in

1:01:22Vietnam? Why were the capitalists

1:01:24fighting in in Korea? Like I it's

1:01:26>> because we were worried that if the that

1:01:27if some became socialists and then they

1:01:29fell under the watchful gaze of the

1:01:30Soviets that it would take over the

1:01:32entire world, which was their plan.

1:01:33which is what they wanted to do, right?

1:01:35>> Yeah. And so and so and and so this is

1:01:36well they both want to take over the

1:01:38entire world. But when I say capitalism

1:01:39wants to take over the entire world,

1:01:41it's it's to get a market in the entire

1:01:43world, right? They can't have something

1:01:46else that's functioning and succeeding

1:01:48in the world. And I think

1:01:50>> socialists can't have something else

1:01:51that definitionally capitalism

1:01:53theoretically can work with a socialist

1:01:54entity. A socialist entity can't work

1:01:56with a capitalist one. It's why all of

1:01:57the socialist countries eventually gave

1:01:59way to liberal market reforms. It's

1:02:00happened in Vietnam. It's obviously

1:02:01happened in China. this happened in

1:02:02Russia. Like that's the only way your

1:02:04country can function more or less

1:02:05because you're not competitive at that

1:02:07point. Um

1:02:08>> so so when when you say though that like

1:02:10it's it failed spectacularly on these

1:02:12ways and I'm not I'm not going to defend

1:02:13them as again there's no such thing as a

1:02:14pure experiment in this ways but do you

1:02:16think uh World War I and World War II

1:02:18were spectacular failures

1:02:20>> of capitalism

1:02:21>> of Yeah.

1:02:23>> No, I don't think so. So, so what like

1:02:26what how did they get themselves what

1:02:28was driving Germany, France, Britain to

1:02:33scramble for Africa

1:02:35>> to I mean there was a degree of

1:02:37exploitation for racing to these places

1:02:40to to extract resources and everything

1:02:41from them. But I mean are you saying

1:02:43that what was driving the Soviet Union

1:02:46Russia to include so many other things

1:02:48into the Soviet Union itself and what

1:02:50what was driving them to have the Warsaw

1:02:52pact?

1:02:52>> Right. So, so, so the answer would be

1:02:56you said it, exploitation of Africa,

1:02:58whatever, which I would say, yeah,

1:02:59capitalism, right?

1:03:00>> Sure. Was Russia exploiting its its its

1:03:02member states?

1:03:03>> So, so I want to hear I want to hear yes

1:03:06or no to that and then you can give your

1:03:07answer. Was was the Soviet Union

1:03:09exploiting their member states? The ones

1:03:11that all left in '91 and none of them

1:03:13wanted to rejoin. Was the Soviet Union

1:03:14exploiting them?

1:03:15>> I'm going to say I'm going to say this,

1:03:16yes, but in a different way. I'll say um

1:03:20because and it sounds like you have to,

1:03:22you know,

1:03:23You have to be a believer in the

1:03:25revolution, right? If you if you're

1:03:27Soviet and you really think and again I

1:03:29don't trust them, right? Like I don't

1:03:31trust any of these powers. I'm I'm the

1:03:32anarchist talking here. But if you're

1:03:34telling me like why was the Soviet Union

1:03:36interested in I don't know Kenya not

1:03:40becoming a capitalist place and you're

1:03:43saying oh because they needed the

1:03:44resources and they wanted to exploit

1:03:46them rather than sort of the western

1:03:48capitalists. Yeah, you know, you might

1:03:50be right. I don't know. But on like

1:03:52structurally there would be no

1:03:54definitive reason for a communist regime

1:03:56to do that and want if it was

1:03:58functioning if it was fun.

1:03:59>> Why not? Well, everybody wants more

1:04:01material.

1:04:02>> Why would they not need it?

1:04:05>> Why? What would they need? So, so you're

1:04:07saying they would need the stuff in

1:04:08Kenya to bring it back to Russia rather

1:04:10than just

1:04:11>> computers. They don't want electricity.

1:04:12They don't want better homes. They don't

1:04:14want What are the things they don't want

1:04:15that capitalists inherently want? What's

1:04:17the different breed of human that lives

1:04:18in a communist society where they don't

1:04:19want material things?

1:04:21No, no. I I didn't say they don't want

1:04:22material things. I'm saying like there's

1:04:24no for the Soviet Union to be expanding

1:04:29its spheres of influence or whatever.

1:04:31You're you're saying they want to do

1:04:32this so they can they can u have more.

1:04:35Okay, let me let me agree with this. Of

1:04:36course, they want to do this so they

1:04:37could have more things. It would be

1:04:38great if they could take over the whole

1:04:39world and the whole world would be sort

1:04:41of cooperative in the Soviet Union and

1:04:43they could all be trading with this

1:04:45thing in one big happy family I suppose

1:04:47and have more access to things

1:04:48>> or just want more things like

1:04:49exploitation and imperialism always

1:04:51existed way before capitalism. Kings and

1:04:53queens were doing it. Your calipites

1:04:54were doing it. Tribes were doing it.

1:04:56What? Like capitalism did not create

1:04:58exploitation. It did not create invasion

1:05:00and conquest.

1:05:02>> I never said that but capitalism

1:05:03absolutely lights a [ __ ] rocket

1:05:05fueler under it. I mean this again is

1:05:07it's hard to refute the history and

1:05:08again I I will repeat it's not just

1:05:10white people but you know I lived in

1:05:12Madrid Spain and if you go to the

1:05:14Palasio Ri Royale there and you visit

1:05:17the throne room you look up on the

1:05:19ceiling and the fresco the height of the

1:05:21Spanish Empire is all around the fresco

1:05:23is all of their you know native

1:05:25populations feeding like paintings of

1:05:27it. It's really kind of cool. uh you

1:05:30know there's Indians over here and

1:05:31Peruvians over here and like everywhere

1:05:33where the Spanish Empire was feeding

1:05:34into this grand thing in the center of

1:05:36the room which was like the throne which

1:05:38was a Christian one of course um you

1:05:40just you're not it's not that they're

1:05:42the unique evil in the world Europe but

1:05:44you're just not going to find that

1:05:46anywhere else in history in the world it

1:05:47never happened on that scale the scale

1:05:49of bigger but you're also not going to

1:05:51find a scale of a king in Europe

1:05:53creating vaccine programs for people in

1:05:55Africa you're not going to find people

1:05:57in countries that are separated by

1:05:59entire oceans doing donation. This is

1:06:01what I'm correct, right?

1:06:03>> There's a level of good that we're able

1:06:04to do. They were able to export to other

1:06:06countries that have never existed on the

1:06:07scale before. So everything is increased

1:06:08in scale. Of course, technology

1:06:10necessitates that. So to delay all of

1:06:12the bad stuff at the at the feet of

1:06:14capitalism and then to just end it there

1:06:16like you could give them the good you

1:06:18can give them the good stuff, too. You

1:06:20know what what's interesting about this

1:06:21too because it we're sort of agreeing on

1:06:22this of capitalism is like is you know a

1:06:25a really powerful engine a really really

1:06:28powerful engine that has these

1:06:29incentives if it's going to overproduce

1:06:30it better find a new market to sell it

1:06:32before the debt comes due like it's

1:06:33going to it's going to overproduce it's

1:06:34going to be very aggressive it's going

1:06:35to be very expansive yeah I don't think

1:06:37it can cooperate the domino theory of

1:06:40course they didn't even really believe

1:06:41like this was all just bluster for the

1:06:43for the media um but yes it's not all

1:06:46bad like of course I can talk about the

1:06:48good things here because what's

1:06:48interesting and And we didn't I didn't

1:06:50introduce who I you know Coleman and Sam

1:06:52Harris and these people who I sort of uh

1:06:54used to be closer with where they really

1:06:57in their deepest thinking about these

1:06:58things and I think a lot of it's coming

1:06:59to a head the the guy that they actually

1:07:02end up having to lean on the most to

1:07:04make their arguments is Hobbs certainly

1:07:06for human behavior but Steven Pinker

1:07:08when it comes to like measuring

1:07:10flourishing and trying to make a defense

1:07:12of sort of the like I don't know

1:07:13postworld war II capitalist status quo

1:07:16um I think people are losing faith in it

1:07:18for all kinds reasons and that's why

1:07:20people are starting to look take a

1:07:22closer look again at at at Markx and his

1:07:24critiques of capitalism because it's

1:07:26>> certainly starting to ring a lot more

1:07:28true.

1:07:28>> It's not though. All of Marx's critiques

1:07:30of capitalism were dog [ __ ] None of

1:07:31them came through. The falling rate of

1:07:33profits was a thing that he thought he

1:07:34would see in his lifetime and it never

1:07:36ended up being true. The natural tension

1:07:38between labor and capital, I don't think

1:07:40he ever imagined that an average worker

1:07:42could have access to airplanes and take

1:07:45vacations around the world. Now, this

1:07:46isn't to say that everything on the

1:07:47planet is perfect or that we couldn't do

1:07:49better with our distribution of wealth,

1:07:50but all of Marx's predictions about how

1:07:52there would be this worldwide uh

1:07:54revolution that capital would give way

1:07:56through the the national natural

1:07:58tensions and everything between capital

1:08:00and labor and you would have you would

1:08:01just naturally see these socialist, you

1:08:03know, revolutions happen everywhere and

1:08:04there'd be this huge social. It never

1:08:06happened. It didn't happen in his

1:08:07lifetime. It doesn't happen over 100

1:08:08years later. I mean, I what prediction

1:08:09did Marks make? The labor theory of

1:08:11value is a bunk way to try to measure

1:08:13value in anything aside from some

1:08:14abstract relational philosophical sense.

1:08:17It doesn't tell us anything meaningful

1:08:18about the world. Um like I I don't

1:08:20understand when we say Markx made good

1:08:21predictions. What predictions did he

1:08:23make that were good?

1:08:24>> Well, I think we're at the the monopoly

1:08:26phase of capitalism for sure. I mean the

1:08:28exploitive nature of it, I feel like a

1:08:29lot of people are feeling quite

1:08:30alienated and yeah, if you're thinking

1:08:32we can redistribute wealth a little

1:08:33better, obviously I think we agree on

1:08:35that. And I and and people think we need

1:08:38you know some socialism obviously people

1:08:40felt what what was it the Dutch East

1:08:42India trade company you know was a

1:08:44monopolistic when it came to trade

1:08:46around the world and we had slavery in

1:08:47the United States that was a pretty bad

1:08:49thing I'm sure a lot of people felt

1:08:50alienated when all of their family

1:08:51members were getting killed in World War

1:08:52I and two like we're not this is not

1:08:54like a unique part in history in terms

1:08:56of there are bad things happening there

1:08:57always going to be bad things happening

1:08:58but even if I grant you that there are

1:09:00bad things happening whatever the answer

1:09:01is it doesn't seem to be anything having

1:09:02to do with socialism. Well, do do you

1:09:05think places that wanted to be

1:09:06socialists should have been allowed to

1:09:08be? Because I mean, you talked about

1:09:09like the a lot of these revolutions you

1:09:11just sort of said didn't happen were

1:09:13trying to happen and they were squashed

1:09:15of course by the CIA and by America.

1:09:18>> Yeah. But they were also foreign funded

1:09:20as well. It's not like these countries

1:09:21weren't also getting assistance from the

1:09:23Soviets that were trying to fment

1:09:25revolution other countries as well. So,

1:09:26I mean like

1:09:27>> but but what's so scary about that? Like

1:09:29that's the question I keep getting to is

1:09:30like what's so why why should America

1:09:32give a [ __ ] if in Oman they wanted to

1:09:36try a socialist economy? What is so bad

1:09:39about that if they were then and if the

1:09:40Soviets were like let give them the

1:09:43credit to be like you know hey we want

1:09:44your liberation too and we want to throw

1:09:46off the yoke of European capitalism from

1:09:48your back too and we want to liberate

1:09:49>> they want their liberation. They wanted

1:09:51them under their sphere of influence

1:09:52more than anything else. What do you

1:09:53mean their liberation? They they

1:09:54installed false governments and they

1:09:55kill they rule tanks over people in

1:09:57Hungary. That's where the term tanky

1:09:58comes from. When they thought that they

1:09:59were being oppositional to the to the

1:10:00governments that they were trying to set

1:10:01up there, the idea they didn't care

1:10:02about the people in Afghanistan when

1:10:04they were supporting their Soviet guys

1:10:05over there that were the minority

1:10:06leadership. I mean, the idea that the

1:10:07Soviets are socialists were looking out

1:10:09for other people, that was the

1:10:10propaganda line. If you're going to say

1:10:11that you don't believe that the

1:10:12Americans actually thought domino theory

1:10:14was real and that was a propaganda line,

1:10:15there's no way that you could sit here

1:10:16and say that the same type of people

1:10:17that presided over uh, you know, the

1:10:19great leap forward in the hollow deore

1:10:21among all the other famines that these

1:10:22countries experienced were were

1:10:23genuinely interested in the well-being

1:10:25of of all the peoples of the earth.

1:10:26That's not true.

1:10:28>> No, I'm not. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not.

1:10:29Yeah, I'm trying like I'm trying to

1:10:31speak more toy universe and

1:10:33philosophically here rather than get

1:10:35sucked into like I'm not going to sit

1:10:36here and defend the Soviet Union. Uh

1:10:38>> well, you said philosophically, but then

1:10:39you brought up Oman and whether or not

1:10:41we were interested in this particular

1:10:42country. I mean, everybody's interested

1:10:44countries,

1:10:45>> right? So, why why should America give a

1:10:47[ __ ] right? Let if they were like, "Oh,

1:10:49you're being exploited by the Soviets.

1:10:51You think you're getting your

1:10:52liberation. you're trying this socialist

1:10:54thing, but you'll find out the Soviets

1:10:56really just want to take all your oil.

1:10:58So, we want to come and crush you and

1:10:59put the Sultan back in power. Uh, you

1:11:02know, [ __ ] the feminist there. [ __ ] You

1:11:03know what they were afraid of like this

1:11:06is and Pari is really quite good here. I

1:11:08don't know if you know Michael Pary's

1:11:09work, but his work, you know, when he

1:11:10when he talked about um he did there's a

1:11:13million talks on YouTube. He's dead

1:11:14unfortunately. But when he talked about

1:11:16sort of the four futures for the Middle

1:11:17East, because now we're coming back to

1:11:19some of this stuff again, he talked

1:11:21about sort of uh what they could have

1:11:23looked like after World War II, which is

1:11:25like revolutionary socialists, which was

1:11:27definitely a thing happening from Dor

1:11:28like we talked about last time, or South

1:11:30Yemen that the CIA tried to crush but

1:11:31lost, even in Western Sahara, which is

1:11:33getting a little play again now because

1:11:35of the Odyssey filming there. Um, so it

1:11:37could have been this like revolutionary

1:11:39socialism, which you can say maybe they

1:11:40were being played by the Soviets, fine,

1:11:42whatever. Arab nationalists. This was

1:11:44another sort of potential future. It

1:11:46could have looked like Nasser, Gaddafi,

1:11:48Saddam Hussein. This kind of look that

1:11:50was oftentimes, you know, very

1:11:51distrustful of the communists, but

1:11:53definitely interested in sort of

1:11:54nationalizing the resources and spending

1:11:56some of them locally. We can obviously

1:11:58disagree with a lot of their politics or

1:12:00Islamic fundamentalism which was a

1:12:03thread that you know I would say was

1:12:05reactionary to sort of the western

1:12:07secularism and became very booish in a

1:12:10way like literally that everything

1:12:11western is bad and um and the all three

1:12:14of those were futures that America

1:12:17absolutely did not want in in that

1:12:19descending order. They could live with

1:12:21the Islamic fundamentalists. They

1:12:23weren't wasn't that big of a problem.

1:12:25Arab nationalists this, but the

1:12:26revolutionary socialists, no [ __ ]

1:12:28way. And you could prove that by who

1:12:30they were funding, right? We fund the

1:12:31mujaheden to get the communists out.

1:12:33We're always funding in that particular

1:12:34order. Or the fourth potential future

1:12:37for the Middle East after World War II

1:12:40was what he called comprador states.

1:12:41This is an old word, like client states

1:12:43of the empire that America would sort of

1:12:46feed into. And the deal with them is

1:12:48that, you know, you have to open your

1:12:49markets to all the multinationals. You

1:12:51have to be capitalist in this global

1:12:53sense. we'll keep you in power forever

1:12:55like Saudi Arabia whatever we'll take

1:12:57care of your family we'll we'll help

1:12:58suppress uprisings if your labor class

1:13:00gets a little too out of hand and you

1:13:03know that's the deal and obviously

1:13:04that's the preferred one that America

1:13:05tried to engineer obviously more than

1:13:07just in the Middle East but in that

1:13:10descending order and so in

1:13:13socialist movements and they called

1:13:15themselves Marxist maybe they were

1:13:16trying to make history come true and

1:13:18trying to make marks come true but it's

1:13:21it's not that it it's not that it didn't

1:13:23happen It's that it I don't know it it

1:13:25it's trying to happen. Markx would say

1:13:28it's inevitable so you're just going to

1:13:29see another wave of it. Maybe he's

1:13:30right. Maybe he's wrong. Maybe his

1:13:32timeline was off. I don't know. But

1:13:33these things did try to happen. And I

1:13:35just don't know why.

1:13:37>> We don't let them [ __ ] give it a try.

1:13:40But obviously

1:13:40>> it's not just them giving it a try. No,

1:13:42it's because a lot of them were funded

1:13:44by the Soviets and they were going to be

1:13:45used as oppositional forces to US

1:13:47interest around the planet. If some

1:13:49country is encroaching on every single

1:13:50country around you, you're not going to

1:13:52feel very safe when you know that their

1:13:53entire political program exists in

1:13:54opposition to the existence of your

1:13:56entire mode of production. I think it

1:13:57was pretty obvious.

1:13:58>> It sounds like it sounds like Russia and

1:14:00NATO right now. I don't want I don't

1:14:01want to open up.

1:14:02>> Well, except but that doesn't really

1:14:03make any sense at all because NATO has

1:14:04never and will never attack Russia. And

1:14:06in fact, I actually agree with you. It

1:14:07does sound like Russia and NATO right

1:14:08now where Russia is attacking a nearby

1:14:10state because they didn't like the idea

1:14:11that that state would freely join with

1:14:13the European Union in terms of just

1:14:14making trade and they wanted to control

1:14:16them under a more restrictive trade

1:14:17union where they would have total and

1:14:19complete control over their imports and

1:14:20exports. So in a way I do agree with

1:14:21you. It does kind of sound like that.

1:14:22But in the same way that you're

1:14:23misstating the NATO threat to Russia and

1:14:25the only threat to Russia that NATO is

1:14:26is a threat to Russian expansionism.

1:14:28There's a reason why in order to join

1:14:29NATO you vote to join but in order to

1:14:31join Russia they invade you and force

1:14:32you to like they did in Moldova like

1:14:34they did in Georgia and like they're

1:14:35doing now in Ukraine. Um, so the false

1:14:37comparison you're making is is the exact

1:14:38same there that I would say historically

1:14:39there is to the Soviets and then and the

1:14:41US.

1:14:41>> I I was really just making a joke. I

1:14:43didn't want to bring in Ukraine. Always

1:14:44a joke until I push on the example. I

1:14:46mean, but I mean that's what is

1:14:48happening. That's true. But

1:14:49>> Stephen, I'm not It's weird. I'm not

1:14:51like you're a very strange debater

1:14:53because these aren't even points that

1:14:54I'm actually making for this. But the

1:14:55one thing that you did say you're making

1:14:57the entire argument that you're making

1:14:59rests on these historical facts that are

1:15:01all either horrendously taken out of

1:15:02context or you're just giving one shade

1:15:04of them. And then as soon as I push the

1:15:06context, there can be lots of context to

1:15:07history. If you're a Marxist, you know

1:15:09this there's plenty of different

1:15:09framings, absolute narratives and

1:15:11whatnot.

1:15:12>> But I'm just saying that like of course

1:15:13if you're going to give historical

1:15:14examples, we're going to push back on

1:15:15your historical examples. You can't

1:15:16retreat to the realm of philosophy every

1:15:18time you don't like the realm of the

1:15:19material. Like I mean what does it

1:15:21disagree with?

1:15:22>> Here's the realm of the material. You

1:15:23said of course they're going to push

1:15:25back. There's American interests all

1:15:26over the world and we need to defend

1:15:28them. Why are there American interests

1:15:29all over? Why is my American interest

1:15:31the exploitation of people in Oman who

1:15:34want to live a certain way, feminists

1:15:36who want their who want their freedom

1:15:37and don't want to live under a king or a

1:15:38sultan after World War II? Why is it in

1:15:41my interest or why is it in America's

1:15:43interest to make sure that that

1:15:46revolution doesn't happen?

1:15:48>> Why is it in an American interest for

1:15:49the United States to be heavily

1:15:51influential over the Gulf States, which

1:15:52are the largest?

1:15:53>> Answer it exactly how how I said it.

1:15:55Don't say heavily influent. Why do I why

1:15:56are there American interests in keeping

1:15:59a a woman in Oman

1:16:02>> from getting her her revolution that

1:16:04she's fighting for? That really should

1:16:06have nothing to do with

1:16:07>> I don't think there are American

1:16:08interest in keeping a woman in Oman away

1:16:10from feminism. That but that question is

1:16:12there is no American interest. America

1:16:13doesn't fight against women in Oman

1:16:15getting independence and freedom from

1:16:17oppressive patriarch. No, they did not.

1:16:19>> Okay. Okay. So, so, so what what they

1:16:22did just for the capitalists in your

1:16:24heart, what they did is obviously you're

1:16:25refusing to answer the oil.

1:16:27>> I'm not refusing to answer. Correct.

1:16:28That's right. They were fighting for

1:16:29oil. Now, there might be a byproduct of

1:16:30that where we support people that we

1:16:31shouldn't be, but to pretend that they

1:16:33were oppositional to feminism and and

1:16:35what like socialists are are massive

1:16:36feminist proponents themselves.

1:16:39>> The the DAR the Dafo revolution

1:16:41certainly was. And and and and so and so

1:16:43you you said yourself there's oil there

1:16:45and we need it. And why do we need the

1:16:48oil? At the price that we want it. So

1:16:50this is the kicker of capitalism at the

1:16:52price that we want it. This we can go to

1:16:54Iran and Mosedc of course have

1:16:56>> every single person wants a thing at the

1:16:58price they want it. Socialists and

1:16:59communists are not exempt from that.

1:17:00What do you mean? There's a cost to

1:17:01doing anything whether you denominated

1:17:02in dollars or human labor and suffering.

1:17:04There's going to be some cost you pay to

1:17:06to accomplish anything or to achieve

1:17:07anything.

1:17:08>> Yes. So now now you get the critique of

1:17:10capitalism though is like who gets to

1:17:11set the price and and the the the

1:17:14socialists again I I'm not going to you

1:17:16could I'm not going to talk about the

1:17:17Soviets. I agree. Like they they I'm

1:17:19corrupt and they had all these kinds of

1:17:21problems. But if Mosedc and Iran is

1:17:23like, you know what, this oil is ours

1:17:26here. We're we're totally cool selling

1:17:28it to you, America or the Soviets or

1:17:31whoever. We want to set the price at a

1:17:33fair price and we're going to rip up

1:17:34that corrupt deal that was made with,

1:17:36you know, the British uh Empire under BP

1:17:39or whatever. That was the part that was

1:17:41and then and then you say, "Oh, well,

1:17:43who wants that there? Oh, communists.

1:17:46the big red scare or socialist or

1:17:47nationalists or whatever. No, America

1:17:49comes in and fights for the capitalist

1:17:52class that will sell us the oil at the

1:17:54price that we want at the expense of

1:17:57>> it's so the price that we want would be

1:17:58$1 a barrel. So that's not true. It's at

1:18:00it's at whatever the prevailing market

1:18:02price is as opposed to what arbitrarily

1:18:04setting a price on your own. People just

1:18:05won't buy it. I mean what?

1:18:07>> No no it's it's not it's not it's not

1:18:10arbitrary price on its own. Yeah.

1:18:12Absolutely. who gets the shop owner gets

1:18:14to set the price in capitalism when we

1:18:15did our t-shirt thing. If if we're true

1:18:18global capitalists, but we're not. We

1:18:20understand how this works. It's

1:18:21imperialism. Iran gets to be the shop

1:18:23owner and set the price. If it's too

1:18:24high, we won't buy it. If it's too low,

1:18:25we'll buy it. We'll figure out the

1:18:27price. Obviously, you know that that's

1:18:29just not a deal that America was willing

1:18:32to take. We fought World War II to take

1:18:33that empire. Britain was getting really,

1:18:36really good prices. And after the fall

1:18:38of World War II, we didn't really

1:18:40decolonize and do global capitalism on a

1:18:44national scale. We we entered this new

1:18:46phase where it's uh you know,

1:18:50imperialism and neo colonialism or

1:18:51whatever. Like this this is the

1:18:53critique. I mean that's I don't know

1:18:55what's wrong with that argument.

1:18:57>> Um okay, so in the last like 20 minutes

1:19:00or so, we've gone through a lot. We've

1:19:03gone through some fundamental

1:19:04differences. We've gone through the

1:19:05individual facts of history and then the

1:19:07deep philosophical lens that we're even

1:19:08using to arrange these facts. So at the

1:19:12risk of derailing the entire

1:19:14conversation, maybe in the last 20

1:19:16minutes we can talk about we can have a

1:19:18meta conversation about truth making or

1:19:22truth detecting or sensemaking

1:19:24apparatuses.

1:19:25Um because Jay and certainly this is a

1:19:28topic that comes that many people are

1:19:30interested in which is like debate bro

1:19:33culture and debate and conversation and

1:19:35even the the last hour and 20 minute

1:19:37conversation we've had and whether or

1:19:39not it's effective at helping people

1:19:41find truth. Um

1:19:43>> I mean Jay you had some thoughts I mean

1:19:45what is your

1:19:47what what are your questions or your

1:19:49assessment of sort of you know

1:19:51>> man bro mentality? Certainly I, you

1:19:54know, am not a huge fan of the uh like

1:19:57when Andrew Wilson and and and Destiny

1:19:59step in a debate about the definition of

1:20:01January 6th. I don't find it to be as

1:20:03productive as other potential

1:20:05discussions that people have.

1:20:06>> I mean,

1:20:07>> um, but what is your kind of assessment

1:20:09and then

1:20:09>> Yeah, man. I don't know respond to

1:20:11anything.

1:20:11>> I'm obviously curious what Stephen

1:20:12thinks cuz he's like so in it. I mean, I

1:20:16don't kind of just totally get it. I'll

1:20:17just say this is that like I know anyone

1:20:20watching out there people are watching

1:20:22tuning into this stuff obviously I hope

1:20:23they get something out of it. Um the

1:20:26comments section is goofy and fun and a

1:20:29lot of like dunking and like you know

1:20:31I'm getting all these no offense Destiny

1:20:33your fans come in with some like some

1:20:35some barbs out of left field sometimes

1:20:37like you know his mask really slipped at

1:20:39the end there. It's like what [ __ ]

1:20:40mask are you talking about man I'm just

1:20:41like a dude I'm just trying to talk on

1:20:43this thing. I'm just, you know, not

1:20:44hiding anything here, but it does seem,

1:20:47>> well, to be clear, I think the mask had

1:20:48to do with the fact that you were like

1:20:49take a heavily pro Hamas position on

1:20:51October 7th and everything related to

1:20:53that. So, I think that was probably some

1:20:54of the masks something that people were

1:20:56referring to.

1:20:56>> But Stephen, like even saying that like

1:20:58this pro Hamas position like don't put

1:21:01it that way. I think it was because I

1:21:02said something like if I had to guess on

1:21:05October 7th something like 60% would

1:21:07have been like triggers from Israeli

1:21:09tanks or something that killed which

1:21:11>> that's like the super pro- Hamas

1:21:13position and if you haven't researched

1:21:14it that show

1:21:16>> but why would you call it like pro

1:21:18Hamasing them from the responsibility of

1:21:20their attack accomplishing literally the