Full transcript
1:24Hey sports fans, Coach Nick here and
1:27welcome to the Bball Breakdown live
1:29show. Uh I am pleased to be coming at
1:31you on a Wednesday morning and really
1:33pleased to have coach Mike Jagaki on the
1:35show of lockdown defense. He's also uh
1:39been a coach in college for eight years,
1:40the last four at New Pulse University.
1:42And Mike, I just I've been a longtime
1:45follower. We've interacted quite a bit,
1:46but I'm really excited to actually have
1:48a conversation with you about defense.
1:51>> Well, Coach Nick, thanks for having me
1:52on. I've been a follower since I think
1:54you started, and I want to thank you for
1:57the early part you played in my coaching
1:59career, especially trying to go from a
2:01player's mindset to a coach's mindset.
2:03Watching your early breakdowns was a was
2:05a key part of that transition for me.
2:07So, thank you for everything you've
2:08done.
2:09>> Wow. Well, thank you for being part of
2:10the conversation as well. I mean, it's
2:12been it's actually pretty exciting when
2:14you think about it because, you know, I
2:16think that the general um knowledge of
2:18even like a fan these days is is just
2:21exponentially grown. Don't you feel like
2:23the interactions you might have now
2:25compared to like even 10 years ago has
2:27just been it kind of blows me away how
2:29much everybody seems to know now?
2:31>> Yeah, the discourse has definitely
2:32elevated. I think from where I started
2:35from like a players mindset to now where
2:37where fans are starting right now
2:39understanding the game it's just so much
2:41better.
2:41>> For sure. For sure. And makes I mean I
2:43don't know about you, but it makes my
2:44job harder, right? I have to come up
2:46with other ways to display explain
2:48things, come up with things that people
2:49don't might not know. You know, it's
2:51it's harder. It's every time I get
2:53another level. But I think what's
2:54exciting about what you're doing is that
2:56it seems to me that you just said, you
2:58know what, I'm going to do something
2:59that rarely happens in this setting is
3:02I'm going to focus like almost no, I
3:03don't know, singularly, but you really
3:05focused on defense, a thing that we
3:07haven't really uh uh evolved from for a
3:10lot of years. Is that is that safe to
3:11say that's kind of how you decided to
3:13approach this?
3:14>> Yeah, I give a lot of credit. Actually,
3:17a fourth grader named Dylan is probably
3:19the reason lockdown defense exists. And
3:22I started coaching when I was young,
3:23sophomore in college. I knew my playing
3:25career wasn't the path forward. So, I
3:27started coaching. And like most of us,
3:29we only have what we had learned as a
3:31player from our high school coach or
3:33from camps. And very quickly, hopefully,
3:35you realize how little you actually
3:37know. And after that first practice, I
3:40was hooked though. I I filled my library
3:42with as much coaching stuff as I could
3:44get and afford. Coaching books, DVDs,
3:46online resources.
3:48And the first goal I set for myself was
3:51honestly understanding every fundamental
3:54to our game, right? And so that's
3:56exciting when you're looking into
3:58shooting and one-on-one moves, triple
4:00threat moves, finishing, you name it,
4:02right? There's so much information out
4:03there. And I I felt pretty good. You
4:06know, players were trusting me. They
4:07were respecting me even without that
4:09instant credibility from a previous
4:11coaching stop or playing career. But
4:14then a kid named Dylan came up to me
4:16before practice and said, "Hey, coach,
4:18can you help me get better at defense
4:20and it kind of floored me because I
4:23didn't really know what to do with him.
4:25I put him through some slide drills I
4:27had learned as a high school player and
4:28from camps, but it didn't feel like
4:30coaching to me." So, I went back home
4:32and I was like, "Surely I had missed
4:34something." went through all my books
4:36and resources and I literally counted
4:39because I was so amazed. Out of the
4:41thousands of pages of coaching books I
4:43had, only 11 of them mentioned
4:45individual defense. And it was so
4:48defeating to read those 11 pages because
4:50it was like all about effort, heart,
4:53hustle. You want it more than the
4:55opponent. And I couldn't bear myself to
4:57go back to that fourth grader and say,
4:58"Hey kid, I figured out how to be better
5:00at defense. Try harder." It it just felt
5:03inadequate. And I don't know why we
5:05lowered the bar for defense. Whereas if
5:07I was working with a player who was
5:09shooting and I said, "Hey kid, you just
5:11need to show a little bit more heart in
5:12your jump shot
5:14>> now. You would look at me like I'm crazy
5:16because we understand shooting is about
5:17mechanics, technique, etc." So I thought
5:20defense was the same way. There just
5:22wasn't answers. So I started diving into
5:24the film, started studying the best
5:25defenders because I couldn't find the
5:27answer out there. I needed to find it
5:28myself. And immediately I started
5:31watching these players, these great
5:32defenders, and they were breaking every
5:35rule I had known or had been told about
5:38individual defense from the stance to
5:40the footwork to everything. And it was
5:43the realization that led me down into
5:45this 13-year rabbit hole right now. So
5:48uh you know training players, studying
5:50players, working with teams
5:53and honestly it didn't start this
5:55passion from thinking defense was cooler
5:59than offense or more important. It
6:00started because there was a question I
6:02was asked I didn't think there was a
6:03good answer to and I wanted to make sure
6:04I found it. So that's honestly how it
6:06all started. you know, and that mirrors
6:08exactly how I went through on the
6:10offensive side, too. Even like with
6:11shooting, for instance, like you
6:12mentioned, because we have been teaching
6:14shooting the same way for 50 years. And
6:18you know, when I was looking at that and
6:19I was a shooter growing up, I knew like
6:21what what they were teaching didn't make
6:23sense, right? And you hear guys say what
6:26they do, but it's not what they actually
6:28did. We finally got like HD footage. I
6:30think this was probably part of your
6:31revelation, too, right? Yeah. finally
6:32had control over some footage that was
6:34really clear and close up and we can go
6:36frame by frame and really watch. But I
6:39mean I I do have memories growing up in
6:41Chicago of watching like Michael Jordan
6:44and and and maybe even having a
6:46discussion about he's like, you know, he
6:48crosses his feet when he plays defense.
6:50>> Yeah.
6:50>> But like it never really went any
6:51farther than that. And I have to imagine
6:53that is that probably where ground zero
6:55is for you as as far as what the the
6:57normal tropes for defense were that you
6:59didn't feel like the great defenders
7:00did.
7:02>> Yeah, the general tropes were, you know,
7:04being in a stance which is that like
7:06classic uncomfortable position, never
7:08cross your feet on defense, never bring
7:10them together, you know, the step slide,
7:13which I still have a lot of issues with
7:15today. But then, you know, Michael
7:17Jordan was one of the players I watched
7:18early and like, yeah, he's crossing his
7:20feet all the time while he's pressuring
7:22the ball. Scottie Pippen is hardly
7:24getting in a stance at all. He's
7:26standing so much vertical like like a
7:28soccer player, not like a basketball
7:29player. Um, Patrick Beverly is doing
7:32like the opposite. You know, he's
7:33getting into this football stance and
7:35it's not a defensive stance I was used
7:37to ever seeing. And so, all these
7:39defenders were breaking these rules. And
7:40I said, surely there had to be overlap.
7:43the more you looked at great defenders,
7:45the more things would rise to the
7:47surface. And then at first I was like,
7:49these ideas are too crazy. Like I don't
7:51even want to teach them to the kids I'm
7:53coaching because I'm not sure, you know,
7:55that's why I started sharing on my
7:57YouTube channel. I want I wanted the
7:59feedback. I wanted to know if I was too
8:00crazy. But I I was receiving positive
8:04encouragement and positive viewership.
8:06And so this one kid, Ryan, I was working
8:09with at the high school level, he really
8:11struggled on defense, probably our best
8:14shooter in the program, as is often the
8:16cases, as coaches know, you have a great
8:18shooter that can't stay on the floor
8:19because of his defense. And I really put
8:22these principles to the test with him.
8:24And we spend a whole off season doing
8:26it. And he came into next season, his
8:28senior year, from the worst defender to
8:31arguably the best defender, probably the
8:33second or third. Let's not go crazy
8:35here. But he went from questionable on
8:38defense to one of the key players to our
8:40defensive uh scheme and system that
8:42year. So that gave me further
8:44reassurance that what I was studying was
8:46actually applicable to players at all
8:48levels.
8:49>> For sure. That's what's exciting about
8:50it is when you actually get to see it in
8:52practice and know that it actually
8:53works. And I I think the root of it is
8:55and I told you before we started, you
8:56know, on on the show today, I I wanted
8:58to be able to offer something to people
9:00who are watching that's like actionable
9:01that they can use on the court. But
9:03we're not going to talk in such a
9:04conceptual manner where it just, you
9:06know, people can't sort of, you know,
9:07visualize what we're talking about. And
9:09I I think one of the things that we've
9:12developed offensively, which has been a
9:14real boon in the modern age, is, you
9:15know, I always say triple threat is
9:17dead. But what I'm really trying to say
9:19is that we want to use ground reaction
9:20forces to explode into different
9:22positions from a stop, which means
9:24lifting both feet in the air at the same
9:25time and then splitting and going. Mhm.
9:28>> And so what I'm starting to realize is
9:30that if you are going to try and use the
9:32older methods of movement on defense
9:35against an offense that is now not going
9:36to wait for you to catch up, you are
9:39really at a disadvantage. And so my
9:41whole mindset now is to try and figure
9:44out more and more about how to have
9:45defense move like the offense. And
9:48that's the thing that I feel like we're
9:49not seeing as much of. Uh the chalky
9:52step closeout thing is another one of
9:53those things that I feel like we
9:54constantly are are are looking at and
9:56trying to figure out better ways to do.
9:58But and I think what maybe you can offer
10:00some of the more insights if you aren't
10:02afraid of studying a good player and
10:06reverse engineering what they're doing
10:08like I don't know would you're not going
10:09to be the kind of coach who would say oh
10:12that's just something that Paul George
10:13can do. Nobody else can do that. Is that
10:15that's not your mindset. Is that safe to
10:17say?
10:18>> That is not my mindset. I I don't think
10:20they're breaking the rules because there
10:21are exceptions to it. I think they're
10:23breaking the rules because they found a
10:24better way to do it. Um, and yeah, I
10:26mean, sometimes you watch AM Thompson
10:28block a shot, and there are a few
10:30players that can do that. You know, WBY
10:31is going to do things that no player can
10:33do, too. But there are a lot of things
10:35like, yeah, if I only studied one
10:37player, then maybe I would come away
10:38with that same philosophy like these are
10:41NBA athletes. But the more you look at
10:44it across different levels, the more you
10:46see overlap and the more you see things
10:47that can actually help your players and
10:49it's not just reserved for these super
10:51athletes. Like um we wanted to stay
10:54actionable, right? So when I'm working
10:58with a player, I usually think of it as
11:02defense as a progressive model in my
11:04head, right? So a lot of times we start
11:06with with level one, right? Which is the
11:09lowest level. And that's a player that's
11:11struggling keeping someone in front of
11:12them, right? They're they're too
11:14explosive. They're getting straight line
11:15drives. We're opening our hips. We're
11:17doing all these things defensively. And
11:18so, what's the first thing I want to
11:20teach that kind of player who's
11:21struggling? The players that even come
11:23to the college level and and and
11:25struggle with these things because all
11:27they've been taught is lateral slides
11:29when really lateral slides are are not
11:32super common defensively. Instead, if
11:35we're going to rely on any movement, the
11:37first thing I want to teach players is
11:39called the cushion slide. And so that
11:42means when I'm guarding you, let's say
11:43I'm square. I'm not forcing a direction
11:45yet or anything like that. It's not the
11:48ability to move laterally. It's the
11:49ability to move backwards and laterally,
11:52right? So almost at a 45 degree angle,
11:54but notice I'm not drop stepping because
11:56then I'm opening my hips. I'm exposing
11:58my top foot. I also am not in legal
12:00guarding position. Now you can put your
12:01shoulder into my hips, steer me,
12:03whatever. Right? I want to stay square.
12:05I want to keep my chest there because if
12:07I take that contact legally, I'm still
12:09in legal guarding position. My chest is
12:10there. I'm moving backwards. Um, so that
12:13cushion step is really important for
12:15that first stage developing defender.
12:18And so often I ask players to do that
12:21movement and it's the first time they've
12:23ever been asked in their playing career
12:25to move in that way to stand in in
12:27somewhat of a defensive stance, whatever
12:29that that really means, but then push at
12:32a 45 degree angle laterally and
12:34backwards at the same time. They've
12:35never been asked to do that. And so it's
12:37so awkward sometimes those muscles are
12:39so underdeveloped that we have to kind
12:41of build them up. But that's really the
12:43first key, using angles to cut off
12:45drives and make sure that you're not a
12:47constant liability. You're not
12:48constantly relying on that help rotation
12:50behind you. And I do a couple of drills
12:52to break that down. I don't know if we
12:53want to dive into that or where you want
12:55to go from that concept.
12:57>> Well, let's just explore that a little
12:58bit more because I what you're also
13:00basically saying is both feet come off
13:01the ground, right? You kind of almost
13:02have to hop back in that in that angle.
13:05Is that is that right?
13:06>> Yeah. Yeah, I call it a push step
13:08because I want to counter also the
13:10notion that it's a step slide or
13:12anything like that. We're not stepping,
13:13we're not throwing, we're pushing. So,
13:15if I wanted to move towards my right,
13:18I'm not throwing my right foot. I'm not
13:20stepping with my right foot. My right
13:21foot's coming off the ground and my left
13:22foot is pushing me backwards. So, yes,
13:24there's a small fraction of the time
13:25where both feet are are moving because
13:27I'm relying on a pushing mechanic, not a
13:30stepping sliding mechanic.
13:32>> Yeah. And then for those who are
13:33listening and thinking, "Oh, you're just
13:34going to hop out of the way." Okay.
13:35Well, I think what the other benefit of
13:37that is is that that reconnecting to the
13:40ground will then allow you to then
13:41spring back into perhaps the other
13:44direction you need to go, right? Like
13:45now you actually have some athletic
13:47movement. I I'll throw this out there
13:49because, you know, I I developed a new
13:50defense where uh we play behind the ball
13:53and part of the the Chase defense though
13:55is we've eliminated sliding altogether.
13:58And what I discovered out of this
14:01accidentally was that the players love
14:03to play this defense. And I think it's
14:05because they recognize they're not
14:07having to step slide. There isn't any
14:10choppy step closeout stuff. They are
14:12able to move as quickly as they can move
14:14and maximize their ability. And I want
14:17to argue that that was probably the only
14:19reason why most players don't want to
14:22play defense. It's not because they're
14:23um they're they're uh they just want to
14:25play offense. They just want to shoot
14:26that, you know, and they're they're that
14:28kind of mindset. I think it's because
14:30they inherently understood in maybe
14:31subconsciously that the way we were
14:33forcing them to move was not optimal and
14:36it just wasn't that that was sort of
14:38like the disconnect but didn't want to
14:39do it when it's like once you allow them
14:41to move in a much more optimal way
14:43they're like oh this is fun this is what
14:44and by the way it creates so much havoc
14:47that it's like this is what this is must
14:48be the purpose of defense not the other
14:50way.
14:51>> Yeah. Defense feels clunky. It feels
14:53awkward when you're teaching it the old
14:55school way and players don't buy into it
14:57naturally. they just do it because they
14:58have to. And I think that's what's so
15:00rewarding doing camps, you know, with
15:02kids of all sizes and all ages is they
15:04come away even within two days of like
15:07completely changing their perspective of
15:09defense. They they they end up loving it
15:11in in ways that you wouldn't imagine
15:13because for the first time they're
15:15realizing there's so much to the
15:16defensive game. They've used to think of
15:18it just as sliding, staying low, and and
15:20talking because that's what their coach
15:22yells at them for. But there's so much
15:24more to it. And that's why offense is
15:26exciting, right? There's so much to
15:28explore. There's so much to learn.
15:29There's so much to do. The other thing,
15:31which I think ties back to your defense,
15:33is inherently it gives the players
15:36initiative. Whereas a lot of players
15:40wrongly perceive defense as a
15:42reactionary entity, and some of it is. I
15:45I won't I won't say it's not, but when
15:47you're getting back on defense and
15:49you're just thinking, "Oh boy, what's
15:51the offense going to do?" Of course,
15:52it's not fun. Of course, it's not
15:54exciting. you're just waiting. You're
15:55you're like a animal being hunted. The
15:58best defenders are getting back on
16:00defense excited to see what they're
16:01going to do. And the more tools you can
16:03add to a defender's toolbox, the more
16:06they feel like, okay, they can actually
16:07go make a play. They don't have to wait
16:09to be on offense to make a play. They
16:10can make plays on defense, too. So,
16:12that's also rewarding having that
16:14initiative approach.
16:15>> So, so let's talk about that because
16:17that's exciting to me when I see a coach
16:19talking about having to be aggressive on
16:21defense. It's no longer just hoping that
16:23you can keep somebody out of the lane
16:25and angle them away and like, you know,
16:27get a hand up, which, you know, at this
16:28point a lot of times you're going to say
16:30that's the best we can do. But what I
16:32like about it as and having been a good
16:34defender, but only because um let's see,
16:37I think that's sort of what unlocked me
16:38as a good defender in high school was
16:39that I finally said, you know what, I'm
16:41tired of that and I I'm going to try to
16:43like maybe reach a little bit. I know
16:44you're telling me not to reach. And
16:45that's the other thing, right? We have
16:46another trope, never reach, I teach,
16:48yada yada. But it seems to me that you
16:50developed a whole a whole curriculum
16:53around being aggressive that way. And
16:55you know, but I'll just say this real
16:56quick before you fill it in because it's
16:58I love everything you do about this. The
17:00one guy that I think we can learn from,
17:02I I hope that you did as well, is Steph
17:04Curry. Steph Curry seems to be the guy
17:07who's like, I'm going to reach in like
17:08every single time on my man. I'm going
17:10to kind of dare the referee to call it.
17:12He's not going to call it every time.
17:13And um and he gets deflections that way.
17:16and he disrupts the offense in a way
17:17that like not enough people are looking
17:19at that and giving him credit. So,
17:21what's your reaction to that?
17:23>> I think people would be surprised um if
17:25they study Steph Curry's defense because
17:28he you know, he's had a couple years
17:29where he's led the league in steals, you
17:31know, and not that they were all on
17:32ball, a lot of them were off ball, but
17:34um you know, he's a sneaky, you know, he
17:36gets some good charges occasionally.
17:38He's great rotation player and he's not
17:40like a complete civ on on defense
17:42getting blown by every time. But I think
17:45to that point we're making about okay
17:47let's like containment is useful right
17:50like there is a place for it where we're
17:53just trying to bend not break that is
17:55useful at times but that's also not a
17:58mindset we just want to fall into too
17:59because even though I'm containing you
18:01attacking me coach Nick my teammate in
18:03the gap could still be looking to get a
18:04blindside steal. So there's still tools
18:06where even in a conservative defense,
18:09you can still be looking to make go make
18:11plays.
18:12>> But Mark Dagnel talks about this too,
18:15like offenses have gotten so good that
18:18you can't just let them do anything they
18:20they want to do. You're just going to,
18:21you know, you're just going to be at
18:22their will. So this idea of disruptive
18:25control really leads to level two of my
18:28defensive progressions. And this is
18:30where the defender kind of wants to take
18:32ownership of the possession where if I'm
18:34guarding you square, I'm just waiting to
18:37see where you're going. But if I can
18:38take away something now, I can
18:40anticipate that. So I'm building my
18:42pressure technique and we need to
18:43elevate our footwork. But now if I take
18:45away your right hand, I know you have to
18:47go left. And as soon as you start going
18:48left, I can cut you off. Now I know you
18:50have to go right or retreat. So like you
18:51get into this flow state where if you
18:54are anticipating, you're actually in
18:56more control than the offensive player
18:58is. And that's the beautiful thing about
19:00defense. You can actually determine how
19:02the game is going to flow and work.
19:04Because if I run a zone defense, what
19:06are you going to do? You're going to run
19:08a zone offense or some version of your
19:11offense that's not geared specifically
19:13to man probably vice versa. Like if I
19:16stay in man, I'm forcing you not to use
19:17your zone plays usually. So defense in a
19:20general sense can really dictate the
19:22terms of engagement, especially on the
19:24ball too if we elevate our pressure and
19:27get into this point of disruptive
19:28control.
19:29>> Well, you just dropped a YouTube video
19:31not too long ago about some of these the
19:33techniques and the the one and there's a
19:36couple things I want to ask you about.
19:38Um, one of them is well, let's get to
19:39the question first. You know, we a lot
19:41of times, or not a lot of times,
19:42sometimes you'll see a pass like a a
19:45swing pass from the top to the wing and
19:47a and a player just steals it and it's
19:49usually a pick six
19:51>> and it feels to me like coaches are just
19:54sort of shrugging and being like, "Oh,
19:55that's so nice that that happened." And,
19:57you know, maybe it'll happen again,
19:59maybe it won't, we don't know.
20:00>> Yeah.
20:00>> Um, can you teach that particular steel?
20:04because it feels like there's lowhanging
20:06fruit here that you know people are
20:08maybe they're too afraid to be to risk
20:10it and they're going to get yelled at,
20:11whatever. But have you developed
20:13anything about that specific kind of
20:15play?
20:16>> I 100% teach steals. I 100% coach
20:19steals. We have segments of practice
20:21dedicated to individual steals technique
20:24or team steals technique of where to
20:25look for and certain things like that.
20:27And so yeah, that started I did that
20:29breakdown. I don't know how long it is,
20:308 minute video or whatever, but it first
20:34I started by just wanting to break down
20:35the best steel getters. So, Dyson
20:37Daniels led the league in steals. There
20:39were two college players who averaged
20:40over three steals a game. No one's
20:42really ever averaged four steals a game
20:44except for one player in the NBA, which
20:46is an incredible statistic. How is that
20:49how [laughter] is that a thing still?
20:50Um, but anyway, so I was like, well,
20:53where are they getting their steals? Can
20:54we develop this kind of steals code? And
20:56I'm still working on it. But one of the
20:58most common steels were these passing
21:00lane steals. And like you said, like,
21:02oh, it's just great. We happened to be
21:03in the right spot. They threw a bad
21:05pass. But no, you actually break it
21:07down. If you watch like all 100 of those
21:10passing lane steals, there are things
21:12that really overlap from having that
21:15back foot planted so that you can
21:17explode through it. Like that's
21:18different than reaching and lunging into
21:20the passing lane. It's almost like
21:21fencing, right? Whether which hand
21:23you're using, but you're exploding like
21:25that push step. We talked about that
21:26cushion slide. Same thing here. Also, a
21:29lot of those steals started with the
21:30hands down and coaches are always like,
21:32"Put your hands up on defense." Well, if
21:34you're actually trying to get steals,
21:36you need to invite the pass that you
21:38know you can steal and you actually need
21:39to deceive them. I think of that Ray
21:41Jean Rondo commercial where he's hiding
21:43in the shadows. Um, that's a real niche
21:46pull out if anyone uh can can remember
21:49that. But you have to kind of bait them
21:51into doing it. And you have to know the
21:53best, you know, moments to pounce. So
21:57reversals are one of the most common
21:59things in our game. One of the most
22:00common patterns. They hit the trail.
22:02What are they doing? Usually that big
22:03swing in the ball. So you can pick up on
22:05these pattern recognitions where you
22:07know the play is coming. Well, those are
22:09your moments to kind of invite the pass,
22:10explode through it, use that inside hand
22:12or that outside hand. There's also other
22:14steals from the gaps. And I know I'm
22:15going on a rant here, but like you watch
22:17Alex Cruso or Tony Allen, they're not
22:20doing the inside hand deflection.
22:21They're doing the outside hand
22:22deflection because they're playing in
22:24the gap open to the ball and they want
22:26to be able to stunt with this hand if
22:28the ball's over here and then as that
22:29pass is going spear through the passing
22:31lane out here and it allows them to
22:33track the ball. It allows them to get
22:34their wingspan fully into that passing
22:36lane. So there's just a lot of things to
22:39break down, a lot of steals you can add
22:40to players games that make them excited
22:42to go make plays on defense. Yeah, and I
22:45I think that's right. Even the the the
22:47notion of doing a drill that will invite
22:50that will change the mindset because in
22:52my opinion, it's they're just scared of
22:54risking getting pulled out of the game
22:56for, you know, a a a daring play that
22:58might or might not work. I think you
23:00have to let go of that, right? I mean, I
23:02I think a lot of times coaches get stuck
23:03in this loop where they they're kind of
23:05coaching defense for a shutout. I think,
23:08you know, they they never want to give
23:10up one offensive rebound. They never
23:12want to give up any buckets at all. And
23:14it's like you kind of want to tug on
23:15their sleeve and say, "Coach, like
23:16they're going to score another 20 times
23:18while you're ranting and raving about
23:20that one basket." Like there's a guy,
23:22you know, in my neck of the woods, I
23:23talk about this all the time, who I
23:25think spends more than half the time on
23:26defense of his practice. Well, actually,
23:29this is a little bit of a left turn, but
23:30I'm kind of curious to hear what you
23:31think about this. Yelling, screaming,
23:33ranting, raving, defense, defense, yada
23:35yada, and then the first play of the
23:37game, the other team hits high post,
23:38back door, bounce pass, layup, right? no
23:40matter how hard you do it. Like I think
23:42the point I'm trying to make is that
23:44that that you know those those meddling
23:46kids are going to solve the case. Like
23:47they're going to score. And I just feel
23:49like the oppressiveness of it using
23:51anger, disgust, ego. I think that's sort
23:55of what we use as motivational
23:56techniques and in communication methods
23:58for 100 years. I think that's where we
24:00get stuck in those risk averse kind of
24:03uh players who don't find the freedom to
24:06to play like we have them do on offense.
24:09>> Yeah. I think a lot of coaches fall
24:10defensive coaches fall into those words
24:13you just described them as because
24:16we haven't been indoctrinated with the
24:18technique and all those other things
24:20like we're the only way we know is to
24:22just try and squeeze the the lemon
24:24harder to get more juice out of it. We
24:26don't know the techniques to teach. We
24:28don't know the footwork to train. All we
24:29know is to yell at our players to try
24:31harder and hope it works. And so you
24:33fall into that trap. And then with that,
24:36yeah, you have these coaches who are
24:38afraid to take risks because they've
24:40been taught this dogma that, you know,
24:41you reach, I teach, that great defense
24:44is about discipline. We can still be
24:46disciplined and learn steals. I I think
24:49we we drastically underestimate as
24:51defensive coaches the value of a steel.
24:54Um, a steel in a game can swing it like
24:57four to six points because that's a live
24:59ball turnover most of the time. in the
25:01plays that we were just talking about,
25:02whether it's a pickpocket or a passing
25:04lane steal, it's usually leading to an
25:05easy bucket on the other end. So, we've
25:07stolen a possession from the offense
25:09that could have resulted in a two or
25:11three points. And then we just given
25:13ourselves a really good chance at a easy
25:15basket, which could be two or three
25:16points. So, right there, that's a two
25:18that's a four to six point swing just
25:19from one steel. And you can't score that
25:22many points on an offensive play, no
25:23matter how beautiful it looks. So,
25:25steals are very valuable. Now, does that
25:28mean our players are constantly looking
25:30for steals? No. Steals, like I tell my
25:32players, are are the candy, right? Like,
25:35I wouldn't eat candy every meal of the
25:36day, although I love candy. Like, I
25:38would be unhealthy. We'd be an unhealthy
25:40defense. But,
25:42you know, that 20 to 10% of the time
25:44when there's an opportunity to have,
25:47well, if you've never trained that
25:48opportunity, they're not going to seize
25:49it. And if they do try and seize it,
25:51they might do it wrong. And now it looks
25:53like, oh, we gambled. We gave up a
25:54basket. we shouldn't do that ever again.
25:56Well, maybe you just need to teach them
25:59to take those risks a little better in
26:00the first place.
26:02>> I mean, because I can remember being
26:03frustrated in in high school playing
26:05because there were steals that I saw
26:07that I I could have gotten and I'm like,
26:09h I just didn't go. I just didn't have
26:11the mindset. Like, I didn't understand
26:13how you're supposed to do that. And then
26:14you'd see a guy every once in a while do
26:15that. I'm like, gosh, there has to be a
26:17way to be able to train that. And then
26:19on the flip side, because the ball
26:20handling has gotten so good now, um you
26:24know, it doesn't even matter if it's the
26:25NBA or high school. I mean, I'm involved
26:26with the high school team right now.
26:28It's got, you know, one of the best
26:29guards in the country. And there simply
26:31isn't any way the next guard down the
26:33line is going to stop this guy, right?
26:35Certainly not step sliding and then, you
26:37know, doing the whole thing he's trying
26:38to do. I feel terrible for the guy every
26:40practice. And so, what I'm going to try
26:41and do with him is be like, you know,
26:43it's time to now start to look at maybe
26:45we can do something to disrupt the
26:47dribble. And I love what you've been
26:50developing here. I think um now I'm
26:51forgetting what the term was, but what's
26:52the one where when you the guy goes by
26:54and you just you reach out and tap it um
26:56and and steal it and then go the other
26:58way.
26:59>> Oh, the wide steel is kind of where a
27:02player's trying to drive by your hip and
27:04you kind of poke it uh or slap it, you
27:06know, wide steel style, whether they
27:08cross over in front of you or something
27:09like that. Yeah, that's one of the most
27:11common steels.
27:13>> It probably needs a better name. Maybe
27:14we can workshop it. But but I wanted to
27:17reinforce for our players, it's not
27:19about reaching low or forward. It's
27:21about using your wingspan wide. And it's
27:23the most common steel I'm seeing in the
27:25NBA on the ball right now. It's, you
27:27know, those offensive players are trying
27:28to shake and bake you. And they've been
27:30taught usually rightly so, right? Like
27:34great driving angles, right? Get to get
27:36to those hips, open them up, whatever.
27:38But if they're driving that close to us,
27:40trying to beat us in such close
27:42proximity, well, our wingspan can
27:43usually get to that dribble pocket. And
27:45so when that player crosses the ball
27:47over, it's not about like tracking that
27:50ball. It's really just about
27:51anticipating it left the left hand.
27:54Where does it have to go? It has to go
27:55to the right hand. So all you have to do
27:57is beat it to that spot. And there's
27:58great drills, progressions I'll use,
28:00like the simplest thing. I'll stand
28:02against this wall, coach. You guard me,
28:04stand in front of me. we get into, you
28:07know, somewhat of an athletic stance and
28:08I'm just dribbling and then at any
28:10moment I can cross over the ball and
28:12your job is just to slap that ball to
28:14the wall. And you'll be surprised at how
28:16frustrating it can be as a coach
28:18watching players try and navigate this
28:20drill because it sounds so simple and
28:22you can watch the videos of me doing it
28:24and it looks so simple and yet players
28:26are constantly reaching in wrong or or
28:28mistiming the ball. It needs practice.
28:31And so there's no wonder that some
28:33players are just instinctively good at
28:34it and some players have never done it
28:36in their entire life and never will.
28:38They never practice it. Um, so if we
28:41want players to make a a great shot or a
28:43great finish, we need to practice it.
28:45Same thing with that steel. Like we need
28:46to practice it. We break it down on the
28:48wall, then we progress to some movement.
28:50I know this is old school linear
28:52coaching, right? Block practice style,
28:54but we're we're allowing them to
28:57practice this skill that they've never
28:59done before. this perceptual skill and
29:01this timing that they've never never
29:04even thought about some of them. And so
29:05we're we're starting at a base level so
29:07that they can have success and then
29:08we're going to incorporate it and build
29:10it up as quickly as we can into like a
29:12live constrained one- on-one but all you
29:15can do is cross over. So now we can be
29:17sitting on it and stuff like that. So
29:18that's how I would use that progression.
29:20I and I love that especially when you
29:22when I first saw that against the wall
29:23I'm like oh my god this is the genius
29:25part of it because the timing is so
29:27important and if we don't train it most
29:30players just don't have it which then
29:32brings me so the the challenge we've had
29:34with with chase defense is so okay I
29:37usually use the analogy of you know the
29:38guy when you were playing growing up
29:40against and you would you would go by
29:41him and he would reach around and knock
29:43the ball from behind and usually that
29:45player wasn't like a great player didn't
29:46have a huge wingspan wasn't very quick
29:48just was annoying right he did that all
29:50the time and I know I was a great
29:52defender in high school but I could
29:53never do it. I could never get it. And
29:55so I've been we've been studying this to
29:57try and figure it out. And when I saw
29:58you talking about timing the it right
30:00and when to actually reach your hand out
30:02to me what we kind of discovered I want
30:04to hear if you feel like this is this
30:06resonates with you. We felt like you
30:09don't start reaching you don't start
30:11reaching until the ball touches the
30:13floor which is when they have the least
30:14amount of control. So that that's when
30:16your hand is getting there his hand's
30:17getting there. ball gets there and you
30:18can knock it away versus you reach too
30:21early, you reach too late, the guy can
30:22cross over and he's by you and you can't
30:23get the ball anymore. Now, are you
30:25developing the reachound steel as well?
30:29>> I'm not. I'm just starting to open my
30:31mind a lot more towards it. I studied
30:33Dyson Daniels. That was one of the most
30:35popular steels he got two years ago,
30:37this reachound steel. I have a player
30:39right now at New Pulse who's really good
30:40at it. Again, it you think, oh, Dyson
30:43Daniels has the wingspan to do it. Yeah,
30:45he does. But guess what? the player I'm
30:46coaching doesn't and he does it all the
30:47time. Uh I remember my high school coach
30:49whenever he would jump in practice with
30:51us, small guy, like five, you know,
30:54under six foot and he would always get
30:56he has the smallest arms and he would
30:57always get the reach around steel. Like
30:58how is that possible? It's all about the
31:00timing. Like you said, I'll do drills
31:03that really focus on the timing when
31:05we're learning what I call the forward
31:07steel or what some call the pounce steel
31:10where Yes. The most susceptible time to
31:12go for that that steel is when it's on
31:14the floor coming back up, right? They
31:15don't have any control of it. So, we'll
31:17do a drill where I just stand in front
31:18of you and I'm counting in my head. One,
31:21two, three, and on that third bounce,
31:23that's when I'm going for the steel as
31:24it's coming back up. And I I love that.
31:27It really unlocks like the first time I
31:28ever taught that and practice it and
31:30went through the progression with a
31:31player. He had a summer league game that
31:33night. He had five steals. He came over
31:34to the bench after three of them was
31:35like, "Coach, you're a genius." Like,
31:37no, it's just like that's the first time
31:39he ever learned how to time up a steel
31:40attempt. So, the same thing with the
31:42reachound. A lot of players make the
31:44mistake of going for it like when
31:47they're already beat out of the play.
31:49But honestly, the best time to go for it
31:51is that first dribble by you because
31:53like you said, that ball is on its way
31:54down. They've gotten your chest to chest
31:57still. So, you don't need a huge
31:58wingspan, right? So, that reachound
32:00steel is timing that ball's trajectory
32:02up and you're close enough to go get it.
32:04Whereas a lot of times players try and
32:06do that reun steal out of the bailout to
32:08getting beat, but by that time the
32:10ball's already on its second dribble and
32:12you're too late. Now you're just
32:13reaching for behind and you're giving
32:14your coach a reason to take you out.
32:16>> That's a great point. Now, now I'm
32:18trying to think, my mind is racing. You
32:19could probably combine the wide steel
32:22with the reachound, right? Like you kind
32:24of if you don't get it there, you're
32:25reaching around or maybe you're showing
32:26a wide seal, but you're really just
32:28trying to lure him and then and then
32:29>> Right. Yes. Yeah. Tyson [clears throat]
32:31Daniels does a great job of that. and um
32:34another player, but he will kind of
32:37attack the dribbler
32:39and really to get to the point of
32:42disruptive control that we talked about
32:43earlier so that they can't have every
32:45option. He's taking away an option and a
32:47lot of times they will spin out of that
32:49or counter out of that. And if they
32:52don't keep going that way, he can't
32:53really chest them and stop them and do
32:55all that stuff. So the moment he kind of
32:57jumps to take away an angle and they
33:00respond by going the opposite way, he
33:01will usually just use that opportunity,
33:03the back tippet. Um, so he's kind of
33:06jumping to a side, forcing a change
33:09direction, and then that's when he's
33:10going for the steel, which is great
33:12because it's even put him in a better
33:13position to get get it from behind. So I
33:16did a breakdown on it. Um, Dyson Daniel
33:19signature play. I think it has some
33:20really good clips of of him doing that.
33:23And definitely everyone has to check out
33:25uh your YouTube channel. There's so much
33:27there to to go through which I'm
33:28guarantee you haven't really thought
33:30about which is what's great about Mike
33:31being out there. He's thinking about the
33:33things that no one else had bothered to
33:35for all those years. Let's get to some
33:36questions. We have some people out there
33:37who want to ask some questions. We have
33:39Real Talk Sports. Thanks so much for
33:40being part of the conversation. Uh they
33:42say, "Love this topic, guys. Who are
33:44some of the best and maybe some sleepers
33:46of the NBA's best defensive playmakers
33:48and maybe highlight their skill on
33:50defense that makes them great?" So, we
33:51talked about Dyson Daniels, so he's kind
33:53of up there. Anybody else that comes to
33:55mind?
33:56>> Well, I wouldn't say they're necessarily
33:58sleepers. They're just some of my
33:59favorite defenders. You know, I think of
34:01Alex Caruso and the amount of
34:02deflections he can get without an
34:04extreme wingspan. Just his activity, his
34:06ability to guard bigger players by using
34:09these these shifty, I call it
34:12slipperiness, right, when we're guarding
34:13the post player. But he'll he'll guard
34:15guys like Gordon and Joic. And he's
34:17doing that not by winning with size and
34:19strength and battling. He's doing it
34:21with uh elusiveness, right? Agility, and
34:24he's getting to the outside shoulder on
34:26passes and things like that. So, he's a
34:27great one to study. A guy that doesn't
34:30get too much love except for if you're
34:32in maybe uh his sphere of social media
34:35is Tammani Kamara.
34:37He to me, two years ago, he led the NBA
34:42in charges and he had more charges than
34:45like I think the number was 13 NBA
34:48teams.
34:49>> Wow. So, and he was racking them up for
34:53a couple reasons. Number one, he was
34:55using top blocking more than I had ever
34:57seen. He was top blocking, you know,
34:59great shooters, but also just
35:01playmakers. Um, because, you know, not a
35:03lot of great playmakers in the NBA just
35:05want to cut back door and there's
35:06usually help there anyway. Um, so his
35:09use of the talk block uh top blocking
35:12has been phenomenal to study and he's
35:14just a great rotational defender and
35:16that's how he gets so many charges.
35:17>> So, wait, are you saying that he's top
35:18blocking? So they're kind of running
35:20into him trying to cut open and then
35:22he's getting
35:22>> Yeah. And he's just he's just taking it
35:24and he has legal guarding position.
35:26You're trying to fight through him to
35:27get to the ball and he's just sometimes
35:28falling and getting getting a great
35:30charge.
35:30>> By the way, that that's also Chase
35:32defense where we would be that way from
35:34the beginning. Um and I hadn't really
35:35considered that, but that is interesting
35:36to figure out ways of taking charges in
35:38that position. Uh is great. Uh wow.
35:41Okay, go keep going.
35:43>> One one other I definitely wanted to
35:44shout out. You know, I could keep going.
35:47Um, but Nem Nemhard, Andrew Nemhard, um,
35:50obviously, you know, Pacers weren't in
35:52the limelight last season, but two years
35:53ago, obviously, they were in the finals.
35:55And his versatility on defense, he's one
35:58of the most physical on ball defenders,
36:00but he also pairs that so beautifully
36:02with pulling the chair out, which is a
36:04great great concept to study, but you
36:06can't just do that. You have to be
36:08physical first so that you know the
36:10offensive player gears up. But his
36:12ability to go from guarding Brunson two
36:15years ago in the conference finals and
36:17lock him up in terms of like not letting
36:19him come off a ball screen cleanly at
36:21all, using disruptive control, using
36:24these pressure techniques so effectively
36:26and then come finals going against SGA,
36:30first quart of that game gets killed
36:33like like SGA is having a great first
36:35half and we're like, "Oh my god, maybe
36:37Nemhard's not the solution." But he was.
36:40He came out of the second half
36:41completely changed how he guarded
36:43because he approached SGA the same way
36:44he did Brunson. He's tried to disrupt
36:46his his rhythm and timing, but SGA is a
36:49a physical driver as maybe not the
36:52people we think of, but he loves
36:55contact. He loves angles. He likes to
36:57get to your hips. So pressuring him
36:58actually does the opposite. So Nemhar
37:00came out in the second half and said,
37:01"I'm just going to contain you like
37:02Kawhai does such a good job of." And so
37:05he's just staying in front using the
37:06cushion slide, using his chest. Now SGA
37:08can't get clean pushoffs because he
37:10doesn't have that momentum to push off.
37:12Now Nemhart's hitting him instead of him
37:14hitting Nemhart. Um and so he did a
37:16great job locking up SGA second half.
37:19Pacers actually stole that game on some
37:20key stops by Nemhard with a minute to
37:23go. But he's a great one because he's so
37:25versatile. And I love that about
37:26defenders because it's not like we're
37:29trying to get everyone to a pressure
37:31defender. No, those level one skills
37:33still are very important. That
37:34containment foundation you still need.
37:36like you're not going to be able to
37:37pressure everyone. You're not going to
37:38be able to contain everyone. You can't
37:40contain Luca. He's just gonna shoot over
37:41you, right? So, you need different
37:43levels of your defense.
37:45>> Uh and then they have another question
37:46from real talk would be the some of the
37:48highest IQ defenders, which is
37:49interesting because that could be a
37:50little bit different than Yeah. some of
37:52the best defenders who maybe aren't
37:53using IQ. Do you see a difference
37:55between those two things?
37:58>> Well, there I think there's a there is a
38:00difference in levels of IQ. Like
38:03guarding the ball takes its own IQ. Like
38:05it's a different it's a different game
38:06than than roaming off the ball and it's
38:09you know different perception cues and
38:10different pattern recognition. Like when
38:12I think of IQ immediately I think of
38:14Draymond Green whether you hate him or
38:15love him like he has been the anchor of
38:18dynasty level defenses for almost 10
38:20years uh in a stretch and you watch his
38:23his film and you break down well how is
38:25he like he's he's chasing a cutter. He's
38:29calling out a switch with Curry on a pin
38:31down on the weak side and he still is
38:34able to recognize a blowby on the on the
38:36other side by P, get there, block the
38:39shot at the rim and you're like, "Oh my
38:41gosh, like that's super human." But then
38:43you listen to him break stuff like that
38:45down or you watch more of his film and
38:48you realize it's not that he's taking in
38:50everything. That's that's one of the
38:51biggest misnomers about defensive
38:53perception. It's not about knowing where
38:55all five players are at once. It's
38:57knowing where the most important things
38:58are. Obviously, the ball and your man
39:00are important, but where's the best
39:02player on the other team? Where's the
39:04key action that's going on? Like
39:05Draymond Green, if LeBron has the ball,
39:08you better you better know that he cares
39:10more about that than he does, you know,
39:12whoever else he's guarding right now. If
39:14the playmaker has the ball in his hands,
39:16he's got to be ready to go at all times.
39:17So where a lot of players would lose
39:19track of a key player because they're
39:22focused on their man or where the ball
39:23is, Draymond Green's never letting the
39:26key player get an easy basket. And I
39:28think that's kind of the apex of
39:30defensive IQ.
39:31>> Absolutely. Well, let's get to another
39:33question from um Durken 5166. Hey, Coach
39:36Nick and Mike, is it better to build
39:38your defense around your team's
39:39strengths, athletic ability, IQ, size,
39:42or around the opponent's weaknesses,
39:45shooting and dribbling? What do you
39:46think?
39:47Yeah. Well, in isolation, you Well, I
39:50think I have to think of this question
39:52in a in a team setting. And so, if
39:54that's the case, an opponent's weakness
39:57is going to change from game to game. We
40:00want to build a solid core as as much as
40:02we can be consistent with it. So, if
40:04we're a more athletic team than most of
40:06the teams in our conference, then we
40:08want to rely on that. If we are a more
40:10higher IQ team than most of the teams in
40:13our conference, then we want to rely on
40:14that. So, so on and so forth. We want to
40:16have a competitive advantage. Now,
40:18how can we pair that competitive
40:20advantage and now start to attack an
40:23opponent's weakness or take away an
40:24opponent's strength? That's the beauty
40:25of coaching and scouting. But I'm not
40:28going to craft my defense around an
40:30opponent's weakness because uh we're
40:32only going to see them once, twice,
40:33maybe three times in a year, whereas,
40:35you know, I'm going to see my team every
40:37every game. So, you want to build a good
40:39base with your team strengths and then
40:41be able to have enough flexibility in
40:43your scheme to to scout.
40:46>> Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, let me ask
40:47you this. We were talking about charges
40:48a second ago. Um and then I want to get
40:50your take on on charge drills.
40:53>> Yeah.
40:55>> What What do you nay? Different.
40:58>> Yeah, I love charges. Um, I know some
41:01people are wanting to litigate them out
41:03of the uh the league and there are
41:06obviously an increased risk of injury. I
41:09remember a couple years ago when the
41:11Heat took a ton of charges and they I
41:13think injured like Giannis and then in
41:16the next series in the playoffs they
41:18injured another key player like they
41:19injured three key players throughout the
41:21playoff run they were having by taking
41:23charges. And that's not what we want.
41:25But I would say the flip side, why
41:28charges need to exist is I I just hate
41:32when offensive players get so much
41:34leniency to just barrel in there, get a
41:36foul, you know, push off, create
41:38contact. Like there needs to be either
41:41we need to call more offensive fouls
41:43without necessarily having to fall down.
41:45Like that's that's usually what are
41:46causing these injuries like guys
41:48rotating late trying to fall down. If we
41:50just call the pushoffs, if we just call
41:52the reckless offensive players who are
41:55barreling in there, even if the defender
41:57isn't in legal guarding position, if
41:59they're initiating contact, why is that
42:02not a foul on the offensive end? Because
42:04I don't know, maybe we want to see more
42:06offense than we do defense. That's fair.
42:08But charges to me, listen, the helpside
42:11charge,
42:12it's being legislated out in the college
42:14level in the NBA. It's may it's become
42:16harder to take those based on, you know,
42:18landing foot and things like that. The
42:20rules that they're changing. The on ball
42:22charge I still think is beautiful. Like
42:24being able to stay legal, stay square,
42:26and if the guy hits you in the chest
42:28illegally, like being able to get a
42:30turnover, get a foul on him, change his
42:32perception of driving the next time. I
42:34love that stuff. So, I love charges. I
42:38don't think there's some supernatural,
42:40you know, act of toughness. I think
42:42they're just a habit of a good defense.
42:45Um, but I do understand that there are
42:47risks in u in taking them especially uh
42:50causing injuries which which we don't
42:52love.
42:52>> But but what about the drills? Those
42:53those drills that everybody does where
42:55you try and take them. Yes. Do you do
42:56those?
42:58>> No. Uh we don't do a ton of those. We we
43:01incorporate charges into some of our on
43:03ball defense drills because I want to
43:05get those Scotty Pippen charges. So I
43:07want to practice taking them. We're not
43:09doing it like you stand here, we're
43:11going to run into you with a pad or
43:13whatever. We're not doing it that way.
43:17We take a charge on air to start
43:19practice every day. It's part of our
43:22like defensive like warm-up where we're
43:24doing a mirror drill and and we're doing
43:26these things on air. So, we're not
43:28having a great threat to injury, right?
43:30We're practicing these things on air.
43:31There is value in desensitizing your
43:34players to these acts of toughness
43:36because some players are afraid to fall
43:38down. They are afraid to dive on the
43:40floor. They are afraid to take a charge
43:42because they're afraid it's going to
43:43hurt. And a lot of players don't realize
43:45how tough their bodies actually are. So,
43:48by desensitizing them, even if it's on
43:50air, they learn that, okay, actually,
43:52no, I can fall down and it's normal.
43:54Like, I can get back up and be fine. And
43:55maybe my whole team will be cheering
43:57about it because I've just taken a great
43:59charge. Um, so we don't we don't do
44:02these insane charge drills where, you
44:04know, 15 people are on the sideline and
44:06one person is taking a charge and 15
44:08people are just clapping. Um, no, we
44:11incorporate into some on ball drills. We
44:13incorporate it um, you know, we we look
44:16for it in live play, even in practice,
44:18but we're not excessive about it, but we
44:20do want to desensitize it. And the last
44:22thing I'll say too, even though it's a
44:25long-winded answer,
44:27I don't act like it's this, like I
44:30already said, like this huge feat of
44:32sacrifice. I I think coaches sometimes
44:35build it up so much that it's like, "Oh
44:37my god, this is a scary thing to do
44:40instead of it being just a normal part
44:41of of our defense." Like, yeah, we
44:43celebrate the guy who takes a charge,
44:45but it's not like it's making our cut up
44:47the next day. number one play like we
44:49took a charge and we haven't taken a
44:50charge in five games. No, we take a
44:52charge like every game. Uh it's it's
44:54just part of our defense. like we get
44:55excited about because it's a turnover
44:57and it's a stoppage of play, but like um
45:18>> Okay, we're back. Sorry, I think you're
45:20there.
45:20>> Yeah, I guess the basketball gods didn't
45:22like that rant. I I have no doubt that
45:24they're involved when this stuff
45:26happens. Uh you are now in the studio
45:28twice, but we'll ignore the second one
45:29that you're there still. Um but I let's
45:32get to the next uh lane switch over then
45:35it would be the thing I want to talk
45:36about in terms of diving for loose
45:38balls. So what is your and I you know we
45:41have to reserve you know 45 minutes into
45:43the conversation to have our first fight
45:44I suppose. But um but what I think
45:47people probably know where I stand
45:49without having me say it right now. I
45:50want to hear your clean unadulterated
45:52take on diving, but more importantly
45:54even the diving drills then which are
45:55separate then from the the taking the
45:57charge drill.
45:58>> Yeah. Well, let me let me I don't know
46:01which I want to go first. Um let me just
46:03talk about how I think about loose
46:05balls, I guess, first. Uh I break it
46:07down in my head as the three S's. So the
46:10first S shouldn't surprise anyone. It's
46:12just secure, right? How can we secure
46:14like diving isn't the purpose. The
46:16purpose is to secure possession. So
46:18however we can do that we want to do. So
46:19that's the first goal, right? How can we
46:21secure this ball? Now, sometimes diving
46:23is going to give you the best chance.
46:24And oftent times you'll see the guy who
46:26gets on the floor first does have a good
46:27chance to get to it first. But that
46:29leads to the second S, which is
46:31situational.
46:33There needs to be like I think you do a
46:34great point um of bringing this to
46:37people's attention where there are times
46:39where it's reckless and it causes
46:41injuries and it's it's not part of the
46:43game we necessarily want. And I think
46:46there should be some rule changes or
46:48legislation to make reckless diving a
46:51little bit more punitive or harsher
46:54punish like we did the close out foot
46:57under the shooter type of thing where
46:58it's a more severe act because it has a
47:01higher risk of injury. Um, so I do think
47:03that should happen, but situationally
47:06too, like there are a lot of examples
47:09where you can get to a loose ball by
47:11diving that maybe you couldn't um versus
47:14another player who who who is not doing
47:16that. So if like we just had two players
47:18running out of ball, usually the guy who
47:20dives on it versus a guy tries just to
47:22pick it up is going to get there
47:23probably 80 90% of the time more. Now,
47:26you know, we can get into the spot he
47:28ends up in and stuff like that, which
47:30you bring bring good points to and we
47:32can talk about that, but um if we're
47:34going back to secure, like we want to
47:36get that ball first situational, is it
47:38does it make sense to dive in this
47:39situation? Is it reckless or is it safe?
47:42And then the last one, which I think is
47:44the most important and brings me back to
47:45the old school roots, is signal, right?
47:48This this competitive play, this
47:50competitive commitment, this sacrifice
47:52of of diving on the on the floor. What
47:54kind of signal does that send to your
47:56team? And also probably more importantly
47:59to me, what kind of signal does it send
48:01to our opponent? That's the picture I
48:02want in their mind that they just lost
48:04the ball because we were there first.
48:07Signal also has two parts to it. Number
48:10one, we just talked about the signal. It
48:12radiates, but number two, the internal
48:14signal. Because, you know, I have a
48:17cutup I usually share when I talk about
48:18loose balls and stuff like that.
48:22There are so many times when I show
48:23people that film that some of those
48:26dives for loose balls like don't even
48:28register as moments that a player could
48:30do that. Like the guy fumbles a dribble
48:32and all of a sudden our guy is diving
48:34for the ball and gets it. Like nine out
48:37of 10en players aren't thinking that
48:38that's a viable time to get that loose
48:40ball, but our players are because they
48:42they've been habituated about like
48:45diving as a perceptual cue. And so like
48:48it is registering that that is an option
48:49to go get a ball that usually wouldn't.
48:51And a lot of times you're playing close
48:53games and you want to win those those
48:54extra possessions. So diving can be a
48:57very valuable part of that.
48:59>> You know, I I I hear you. I I I you
49:01know, I think the biggest issue I
49:03probably have overall is the inane
49:04diving drills which basically end up
49:07conditioning players to dive
49:09>> for every single ball that's on the
49:11floor no matter what, where, how, when,
49:13and why. Like that doesn't, you know,
49:14that's it. have to be on the floor and
49:17that's what so obviously the reckless
49:19part is really what frustrates me but
49:21like I've looked at it from an analytic
49:23standpoint too like if there's a ball
49:25and like you said there are situations I
49:27think there are rules that we can start
49:28to develop around when you should dive
49:30so like you know if the ball starts
49:32rolling toward the hoop that you're
49:33going to score on
49:35>> you know if I can accelerate and first
49:37of all you have to train this that's the
49:39thing that people can't seem to wrap
49:40their head around you can train it like
49:42a third baseman going after a slow
49:43roller who stays on feet and scoops the
49:46ball up. But because nobody really
49:48trains that position, they can't
49:50understand how I could accelerate into
49:51like a low bent over like, you know,
49:53thing like that, which makes you faster.
49:55Nobody slides into first base because
49:57it's slower.
49:58>> And so, um, you actually, but my point
50:01about the the ball going toward half
50:02court is in that situation, if I can
50:04sprint, scoop, I can get a layup. Now, I
50:09don't know how often out of 10 I'm gonna
50:10get a layup, but it's more than if I
50:13dove, which would be zero, you know.
50:16Now, of course, there are are going to
50:18be moments, and we have seen it, you
50:19know, very infrequently, but sometimes
50:21you do see like the layout and the guy
50:23and it's like 10 seconds left in the
50:25game and he grabs it and calls timeout,
50:26whatever. Okay, amazing.
50:27>> But my other problem is is that if even
50:30when I get it now, I'm like on my back,
50:33I can't move. I'm holding the ball here.
50:36And so what we've also trained was if
50:37you're the second guy then you just rip
50:39it out of the guy's hands and you go.
50:41Worst case scenario is a jump ball and
50:43then a lot of times you just you know
50:44the guy it's hard to hold the ball when
50:46you're on your back you can't move you
50:47know it's like you can rip it out of his
50:48hands.
50:49>> So yeah you know that's my my other
50:51thing in terms of that like there
50:53there's more optimal ways to be able to
50:54uh retrieve that like the best players
50:57often are never on the floor. Have you
50:58ever noticed that?
51:00>> It's true. Uh, a lot of players, you
51:02know, a lot of good players are are
51:04pretty upright. They're not on the floor
51:06too much unless they're, you know,
51:07baiting a charge or something like that.
51:10Um, the Yeah, I do think you have some
51:13some valid points, especially in the
51:14training aspect. Like, if a player's
51:16never practiced that scoop and score
51:19motion, then it's probably going to be
51:21really awkward. It's going to slow him
51:22down too much where the player who just
51:24dives is going to get there more often
51:26than not. So, I do see some validity in
51:28like if we're not practicing it, then
51:30obviously it's not going to be as
51:31effective, but it might have a better
51:32ceiling. You know, that being said, um
51:38that being said, I still think there's
51:40merit to the signal aspect. Obviously,
51:42scoring a layup has a stronger signal to
51:44the scoreboard, but when you dive for a
51:47ball, though, it it leaves you on the
51:50ground. if that was a possession we
51:52would not have gotten without diving. Um
51:56I think it's kind of like complaining
51:58about playing paying taxes on the
52:00lottery. Like oh my god I have to pay so
52:03much taxes on the Yeah, but at least you
52:04still have millions of dollars coming
52:06in. Like at least you still have the
52:07ball. Like you're not in a great
52:09position but you have the ball that you
52:10maybe not you know you might not have.
52:13Um so you know what you do with that? Do
52:16you call a timeout? Can we afford to
52:18waste one? Maybe not. Do you get a jump
52:19ball if you're in a high school in
52:21college? Maybe, you know, that's a jump
52:23ball that that ends up working out in
52:25your favor later on in the game or it
52:26gives you the possession anyway. Uh the
52:28worst thing you can do is dive on a
52:30loose ball and then just try and throw
52:31it away quickly and it turns into a
52:33turnover and now it's like a five on
52:35four because we're on the ground
52:37throwing it to the other team. Um so you
52:39do need to have some decision making
52:42when you're on the floor because it is a
52:44compromising position. But there
52:47obviously it's better than not having
52:49the ball.
52:50>> Yeah. And that you know Cole Anthony is
52:52not a bad example of someone who ended
52:54you know two player seasons in the same
52:56season basically. Um and I don't blame
52:58him. Like that's the thing like because
53:00you know what you were talking about
53:00punitive damage or punitive calls for
53:03for players that are reckless with it.
53:05But unless we have coaches who are
53:07unwilling to create rules around this
53:09and the rule that I developed on that
53:11one was like if the players your
53:13opponent's leg is in between you and the
53:16ball you cannot dive like that just
53:19should be an an you know an unmutable
53:21truth there because you know Anthony
53:24took the guy's leg out and wrenched his
53:26knee and like you know he couldn't play
53:27uh it was someone in Detroit who was it
53:29Jaden Ivy uh lost his season that way.
53:31So, um, that but and again, he was so
53:34conditioned. There's a loose ball. And
53:36by the way, Cole Anthony was fighting
53:37for his NBA life at every minute he was
53:39on the floor. So, he's got, you know,
53:41he's he's trained that way. I I I can't
53:43afford not to show that I am giving out
53:45as much as I possibly can. So, that's
53:48what I get really really concerned with.
53:50Aside from the fact that you can get
53:51injured doing those inane drills that
53:53you see like the shock stuff. Um, but I
53:56think that one we can at least maybe
53:57eventually get out enough where coaches
53:59can be like, "Yeah, okay. That's that's
54:00a good rule. we should probably
54:01institute.
54:02>> Yeah. The difficult thing is you're
54:04you're balancing moral judgment in a
54:07competitive field where you know a coach
54:10has to decide the moral ground versus
54:13the competitive ground. Does it give us
54:14advantage to win? Does it have a
54:16potential to hurt players? That's that's
54:18a situation where I don't want coaches
54:20making a decision. you know, but I want
54:22the league or league's making the
54:25decision where just like the NFL has
54:27protected the quarterback because
54:28they're get they get hit in the knees so
54:30often by guys, you know, diving late or
54:32high low blocks and stuff like that.
54:34Like if you dive in basketball and you
54:37know, you hit someone's leg, just like
54:38if you close out and your foot goes over
54:40under someone else's landing space,
54:42>> there's a severe consequence. Um, so you
54:46know, unless that starts to happen, I
54:49can't see coaches just choosing the
54:52moral ground as opposed to the
54:54competitive ground, as sad as that might
54:56be.
54:57>> I fair enough. Whatever it takes
54:59[laughter] at this point, I will take
55:00it. Doesn't matter, you know, how it
55:02comes about. But I I would imagine
55:04eventually you can talk to enough
55:05coaches because again, why are they
55:08doing all these drills? Why? It's
55:09because they were taught they were
55:10generational trauma of like every that's
55:13how I had to do it and that's how you
55:14have to do it. And I think that's
55:16probably why you and I are both here
55:18because the I have to do it because they
55:21did it 20 years ago and they did it 50
55:22years ago was why we started looking at
55:25all of these things, right? And and we
55:26finally discovered that there might be
55:28better ways and more optimal ways to do
55:30it. Um, and so I think that that's, you
55:33know, if we can develop better
55:35techniques and that connects to the
55:36mindset of the players like you're
55:38describing, they like defense. Now, I'm
55:40seeing that players like defense when
55:42you can unleash them properly. Um, then
55:44then imagine the power of that. You have
55:46a team like we had taught the chase
55:48defense to a college team that I I tell
55:51this to everybody I when I do my uh my
55:52zooms to install it. It was a the first
55:55night we I was at uh Queens College
55:57Division Two in New York. really good
55:59athletes, really good program. We
56:00started at 6 PM, all defense, all chase,
56:03coaching, coaching, you know, intense.
56:05It was like 8:20 and we blew the whistle
56:08to end the practice. And I swear to God,
56:09every single player turned to us and
56:11said, "Coach, we want to keep doing
56:13this."
56:14>> Now, it was 8:20 on a Thursday, which is
56:17where, you know, that's the college kids
56:18go out on Thursday nights, right? That's
56:20the first night of the weekend. So
56:21here's the thing where you know because
56:22the way we were teaching it and because
56:24of how they recognize how much they can
56:25move better that way they wanted to to
56:28play defense and that that's exciting to
56:30me and I can't imagine that you know
56:32anybody would not want to be able to
56:34continue to develop that and have that
56:35bleed into their manto man and have
56:36their bleed in their zones. So uh anyway
56:39listen Mike this was an amazing
56:40conversation. I know I I I know you're
56:42busy and I know you a lot to do today,
56:44but before we go, I just want you to let
56:45you let give you a chance tell everybody
56:47how they can find you about your book
56:50and any other diff uh resources they can
56:52get to learn more about defense from
56:53you.
56:54>> Yeah, there's a ton of good resources.
56:56Uh I'm sharing constantly on social
56:58media, so wherever platform you prefer,
57:00I'm probably there from Instagram, Tik
57:02Tok, Facebook, uh Twitter. Twitter or X
57:07is probably the best place to follow me
57:09because I'll be tweeting out not only
57:12concepts twice a day and things to learn
57:14from and workouts and things like that,
57:16things I'm seeing on film, but also
57:18product releases and things like that.
57:19So, I have a lockdown defense book which
57:22coach mentioned as kind of the starting
57:23point of this journey. Uh, but if you're
57:26more into the digital space, you can
57:28check out lockdowndeefense.com.
57:30I have a lockdown academy which if
57:32you're a player or even a coach out
57:34there, it's my full curriculum for on
57:37ball development and even some off-ball
57:39development as well. I bring you through
57:41everything I've learned over these 13
57:43years. It's a full academy. It's not a
57:46monthly payment. It's a onetime payment.
57:47You'll have lifetime access. So, that's
57:49something I'm really proud of. Something
57:51I've been working on forever. And if
57:52you're a coach, that's a great resource,
57:54too. But I also have a coaching series
57:56as well, which is a deep dive into the
57:59philosophy of creating a great defense.
58:02Um, so great resources. If you're on the
58:04free train, just follow me on social
58:06media. Check out my YouTube channel, uh,
58:08Coach Mike or Lockdown Defense.
58:10>> Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Mike.
58:12I really appreciate you coming on the
58:13show and and finally having a a meeting
58:15of the minds here. I I I learned a lot.
58:17cannot wait to put in the wide steel uh
58:20stuff because I think that that's going
58:21to be huge for a lot of a lot of
58:22especially the players who you know
58:24aren't uh gifted, right? Those that I
58:26think there's an advantage they can get
58:27back, right? Like I think that's pretty
58:29is that fair to say? Like this is for
58:30someone that any player can do that kind
58:32of steel.
58:33>> Yeah, any player can develop a defensive
58:36bag. It just depends on on what's going
58:38to be added to it. Like the wide steel
58:40is a great example that has a low
58:41barrier of entry, right? You could you
58:43could learn it as the most unathletic
58:45player. You could master it. You could
58:47use your angles. You could use the
58:48cushion slide. Add the wide steel. Add a
58:50sky hip in charge. You know, you can you
58:52can fill a defender's bag with anything.
58:54You just need to know them, right? You
58:55need to have access to teaching them and
58:57how to rep them out.
58:58>> Well, thanks so much for breaking it all
58:59down for us. And don't forget, sports
59:01fans at Pault Breakdown. We're not a
59:03channel. We're a conversation. You in?
59:05Are you in, Mike?
59:06>> I'm in.