The Hidden Saboteur: How Medical Hypnosis Rewires the Mind | Dr. Siegfried Stoll

0:00Every mind has a lock. Every lock has a

0:04key. I'm David Baron, clinical

0:07hypnotist. This is Mind Control

0:10Chronicles. [music]

0:12Let's turn the key.

0:16Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm

0:21David Baron. Uh I've been a hypnotist

0:24for several decades. And uh the whole

0:28purpose of this podcast is to talk with

0:31people who are either hypnotists or have

0:34some sort of experience in human

0:38influence, whether they're cult

0:39survivors or former cult leaders, who

0:43knows? Uh but I've got a I've got a

0:46great guest here today uh who I will in

0:49full disclosure let you know this is he

0:52is a friend of mine. Uh his name is Dr.

0:56is Ziggfrieded

0:57Stool. Uh he's in Germany

1:01>> stool. Thank you very much.

1:04>> And you're welcome.

1:08>> And uh he and I met when I was speaking.

1:12I was invited to Italy over a decade ago

1:16to give a presentation and he and I met.

1:19He traveled from Germany down to Italy

1:21and we met and then just maybe four or

1:26five years ago I made the decision to

1:28try and study German and I thought h I

1:32know someone who's speaks German and I

1:35reconnected and then since that time we

1:38we speak regularly and uh so I I want to

1:43just go ahead and introduce everybody uh

1:48shall I call you Dr. Stool or let's just

1:51call you Ziggfrieded. Okay. [laughter]

1:53>> Yes. Uh like I call you David.

1:56>> Okay. Very good. Very good. [snorts] So

2:00um uh let's just let's just talk about

2:04your your particular practice. I think

2:06one of the first things um there are a

2:09lot of hypnotists out there but not all

2:11of them are medical physicians. And so

2:15how if you can just sort of go back into

2:18the history and your fascination with

2:21hypnosis and how it led you into

2:24studying medicine and let's sort of

2:27recap the history here.

2:31>> Well um I have always been interested in

2:35the human mind. I guess the reason is

2:39that my family background led me in this

2:42direction.

2:44And [snorts]

2:45of course, I heard about hypnosis as a

2:49teenager, but I didn't do anything at

2:53first.

2:54I was led to hypnosis when I tried to do

2:59experiments on extra sensory perception

3:02with self hypnosis.

3:05There was a book of a Czechovian

3:08professor teaching you how to do self

3:11hypnosis for ESP.

3:15And of course, I recorded the things

3:18onto a tape recorder long time ago.

3:23I think I was well about 20. I actually

3:28I cannot even remember how old that was.

3:31And it worked at least with respect to

3:35hypnosis.

3:37And when I realized that I can hypnotize

3:41myself, I thought, well, why not

3:44hypnotize others?

3:47>> That's interesting. H how did that

3:49start?

3:51Did you introduce it to other people? I

3:53assume.

3:55>> Yes, I did. And uh the self hypnosis was

4:00mainly a

4:04a well now I'm at a loss of word as a

4:07foreign speaker a a relaxation induction

4:11and I used relaxation inductions at

4:13first

4:16and when they worked well first of all I

4:20didn't do much with them with other

4:22people I mainly experimented with myself

4:27but I always knew that it's a very

4:31powerful tool that you can use and

4:34during my studies of medicine I

4:38often thought that we are too focused on

4:43the body

4:46from the side of my father who had also

4:49been a medical doctor I had learned the

4:52relaxation technique of modern journal

4:55um is usually called autogenic training,

4:59autogenous training which is a

5:01self-reaxation method that can also be

5:05done by others.

5:07had learned it. He had used it. He had

5:10done it on me and I had learned how to

5:12do it myself.

5:15[clears throat]

5:16>> And later on I learned other mind body

5:20techniques like silver mind control and

5:24all these things they mixed inside

5:28myself for use in me and for use in

5:31others.

5:33What what kind of when I

5:35>> if I if I can ask what kind of changes

5:37did you notice in yourself using these

5:43>> uh well relaxation new points of view of

5:47the world

5:50uh

5:52and really some ESP

5:57>> really

5:58>> well

5:59>> ESP I I would have to ask can you give

6:02me some interesting examples.

6:04>> When I

6:06when I when I was on a training, we were

6:09asked to

6:12diagnose other people and my training

6:15partner was a 30year-old man. And I felt

6:21inside his body while I was in trance

6:25and

6:26realized something had been wrong with

6:30his prostate gland, which is very

6:33unusual for a 30 year old.

6:37But after the end of my scanning, he

6:41told me, "Yes, I had suffered from

6:43inflammation of the prostate a few

6:46months ago."

6:48And I was shocked.

6:50>> Wow.

6:52Nice evidence that that it works.

6:56>> Yes, of course. It's just a single case

7:01and you cannot prove or disprove ESP

7:05from this. But actually, I was much more

7:08interested in using hypnosis

7:11to improve the lives of yourself and of

7:13others. I mean, I soon realized that

7:17many people have so many inner obstacles

7:21that keep them from growing, that keeps

7:24them from

7:27becoming happy,

7:29from developing themselves to what they

7:32could be.

7:34And that's well why I started focusing

7:38on learning techniques to open mental

7:43blocks.

7:44At what point at what point in your in

7:47your medical

7:49through schooling and then getting your

7:51your your uh PhD as a doctor? At what

7:56point did you start to apply this?

8:03>> You mean for real medical treatments?

8:07>> Yeah. To make people a little bit

8:10better, as I call it. [laughter]

8:14Well, I think

8:18yes, for real and I mean

8:21uh doing it regularly with regular

8:24intent.

8:25I think that was

8:29well

8:31I think more than 32 years ago

8:35[clears throat]

8:38>> and it became more often I think

8:45yes about 28 years ago when I had

8:48several

8:50uh colleagues who had mental problems

8:54and and realize or even physical

8:57problems and many of them were

8:59pharmacists

9:01and pharmacists very often believe in

9:07uh yes uh conventional science.

9:10>> Yeah.

9:11>> So I used their belief to let them take

9:16um suggested medicines.

9:20>> Okay.

9:20>> And it often helped.

9:23>> Oh, excellent. Excellent. Now,

9:26>> one of the things that you and I have

9:28talked about is there's a there's a

9:31technique of hypnosis, auto system

9:34hypnosis.

9:35Um, and

9:36>> yes,

9:38>> from from what you've told me, this was

9:40originated and written up by someone who

9:42is a German speaker,

9:45and it was rather, I guess, cryptic and

9:50opaque to understand from the beginning.

9:52That's that's the impression I got. So

9:56>> yes,

9:56>> how how would you describe

9:59autoist system hypnosis? And what's the

10:03English translation that you would call

10:04it?

10:05>> Well, I think you could call it auto

10:07system hypnosis.

10:09>> Okay.

10:09>> Auto just for showing that it works on

10:13itself. system because you see the whole

10:17human as a system and hypnosis of course

10:21because of hypnosis,

10:22>> right?

10:23>> Uh the general idea behind it is that we

10:28are in a

10:32low equilibrium all the time and we are

10:36changing all the time or we try to stay

10:39the same within this equilibrium.

10:44And often the equilibrium is outside of

10:47our best range.

10:51>> Yeah. Very true.

10:53>> Yes. [laughter]

10:55And as a dynamic system that we are, we

10:59have some

11:04roots possibilities to change one from

11:08one state to the other. Mhm.

11:11>> And autosc hypnosis wants to help you to

11:16change your present state to a better

11:19world. And

11:22uh the therapist initially doesn't know

11:25what what's the best for you. It just

11:29helps you to

11:31um loosen the current state to open you

11:36new possibilities and you choose the

11:39possibilities you find better. At least

11:42that's a theory.

11:44>> Yeah.

11:44>> In my personal experience, sometimes

11:47it's different.

11:49>> Yeah. One of the things I I like to tell

11:51people is that your nervous system, it

11:54doesn't optimize for health or success.

11:58it optimizes to do what's familiar.

12:01And so it's always scanning for, you

12:04know, does this match up with a

12:06situation that I can that I'm familiar

12:09with that I can respond to. That's not

12:12always the best option. Uh so uh and I

12:16think you you explained to me once that

12:18you you actually went to a training and

12:21it took you a while to sort of figure

12:23out how to apply it.

12:26Uh for anyone who's listening, how would

12:29you describe, you know, once you have

12:32this person in hypnosis,

12:34what's the process you go through?

12:39Uh well, usually when a person

12:45has drifted into hypnotic trance, first

12:48of all, I

12:50try to find out if he identifies with

12:56himself or herself because many people

13:00identify with

13:02a very

13:05uh superficial part of themselves

13:10like my car, my house,

13:14my dinosaur.

13:17>> Yes.

13:18>> Yes. Okay.

13:19>> And

13:20that's not the part that's the real you.

13:25>> You are much deeper.

13:28And

13:29my first goal is to find out whether you

13:34need to get in touch with you really you

13:37again.

13:39And it's quite easy because when I find

13:42out that a patient does not identify

13:46with the real self, I just ask him to

13:51bring up the real self and to talk only

13:55as as the real self and not the

13:57superficial one. M

14:00>> that's usually the first thing I do

14:03because I want to help the real self and

14:07not only a painting on the wall.

14:10>> Right. One of the things that comes to

14:12mind is when someone um you ask that

14:15question of the real self,

14:18they're frightened. [laughter]

14:21Is that they they think, "Oh my god, I'm

14:24going to start crying and emotions are

14:25going to explode out."

14:28Do you ever notice that response?

14:32>> Well, I've got tissues uh there all the

14:36time and usually I I help my patients

14:42and clients to relax even before

14:45hypnosis because many are excited

14:49because they never experienced hypnosis.

14:53At least they think they never

14:54experienced it. I tried to explain them

14:57in advance that they usually experience

15:00hypnotic phenomena every day.

15:04But there that's there is a difference

15:07like when you when you are able to throw

15:11a to throw something you don't know

15:14baseball.

15:16>> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. So

15:20>> that's why I

15:22go ahead. That's why I often I often

15:25show them a relaxation in uh exercise in

15:30advance to let them calm down and also

15:36to open their mind up for the hypnotic

15:39process that follows.

15:41>> Okay. And so uh let's let's talk about

15:46the the the ideal response you get from

15:49people. We'll talk about the challenge

15:51or challenging responses, but when

15:53you're working with somebody and they

15:55understand it and they respond very

15:57well, can you can you sort of give an

16:00example from your your archive of

16:03history uh that worked really well?

16:09Well, usually

16:13I

16:14lead people to a theory through a series

16:19of inductions. Usually I start with an

16:22idiom motor induction and then I use the

16:26element induction very often, but not

16:30always. There are of course many other

16:33possibilities. that where possible I

16:36stack at least two or three inductions

16:40up to help them to go into really deep

16:43trance because in my personal experience

16:46it's very useful to be in a someistic

16:51state for the work. Other people say you

16:55don't need that depth of hypnosis but I

17:00experienced it time and again that it

17:03helps and when they are some

17:06amandulistic I start with the real work.

17:09>> Okay. Yes. And the the way I understand

17:11that is once you're giving them an

17:15experience of not the change but just

17:18what it's like to be in this very deep

17:21internally focused state. So they

17:23realizing okay something is different

17:26than my normal experience here.

17:30That's true, but only in part,

17:34>> right?

17:35>> Because when you

17:38go into really deep hypnosis, it often

17:42happens that you have post hypnotic

17:44amnesia.

17:46And [snorts]

17:46I don't like

17:50uh people experiencing it without

17:52wanting it. That's why I give them a

17:57post- hypnotic suggestion at the end of

17:59the session that they can remember

18:02everything that's good for them around

18:06the session and only what's good for

18:10them.

18:10>> Okay.

18:11>> To protect them from other memories.

18:14>> Okay. So, so you have you have this

18:17person deep in this profound state and

18:22then you do the altos is them hypnosis.

18:24So, if you could just walk someone

18:27through with the ideal response

18:30or how how it works.

18:33>> Okay. The ideal response is that I uh

18:37when that I first install yes and no

18:41signals. Many people like idiom motor

18:44signals. You can use finger movements.

18:47You can use arm movements like this.

18:51For example, if if a person likes this,

18:54which arm lowers for yes. And then they

18:58move one arm down. And of course, the

19:01other is no. And then I can start a

19:04series of yes no questions starting with

19:08uh the surface personality and the deep

19:11personality that I mentioned before.

19:14Then I usually ask them if there is an

19:20inner sabotage

19:22because very often there is an important

19:25part of the mind that does not want the

19:29people to get healthy again. in the way

19:33they want it.

19:36And this may try to punish the person,

19:41may try to protect the person, may try

19:45to help the person to be a good child,

19:49whatever.

19:51>> Right? the uh

19:54my thought about the uh you call it the

19:57the inner

19:59the inner self.

20:02It's it it's the part that was a that

20:05was born this this child just in awe of

20:10the world and experienced joy. uh

20:15whatever suffering, it was there just to

20:18supply a need, but it didn't have a list

20:20of rules

20:22that you had to live by to be accepted

20:25socially and to get whatever rewards

20:26that are needed.

20:29>> Exactly. That's why they try to find out

20:34the rules and the rules given to a child

20:38may even be correct for a child but they

20:42may may be perfectly wrong for an adult.

20:46>> Very accurate. Yes, I agree. [laughter]

20:48>> Yes.

20:49>> Okay. So, so you you have the person uh

20:52in hypnosis and they realize there's

20:54there's an inner part that that is what

20:59what do you refer to it as?

21:01>> A sabotur sabotaging the person.

21:04>> There's a there's a sabotur, but there's

21:07an also a um an inner perfect how do you

21:12a perfect version of themselves. Is that

21:14what you describe it as? um in in the in

21:18their own system that very often is a

21:22better state. I mean it's it [snorts] it

21:26may not be perfect but it's better and

21:28they've got the potential to develop.

21:31>> Okay. So you

21:33>> expand.

21:34>> Okay. So so you you you've established

21:39the better state. there's a possible

21:41sabotur that's in there and go ahead and

21:45and proceed with the the process.

21:48>> Yes. Then I ask the sabu to come out and

21:53talk with me.

21:55And very often we can find out what the

21:58sabotur wants. And very often it's only

22:02a misunderstanding

22:04of a sabitude.

22:06It itself is unhappy or sabotaging

22:10person.

22:11>> Okay.

22:12In this case it's

22:14>> if you can give an example

22:17of someone you've worked with.

22:22>> Let's say

22:25someone the sabitude in a person wants

22:28that the person

22:31does not achieve anything because

22:35achieving anything means danger.

22:39It would be like drawing attention and

22:42becoming a target.

22:45>> Yes.

22:45>> Okay.

22:46>> Exactly. And in this case very often

22:50it's helps just to have a dialogue with

22:55the savur

22:57or to ask for other parts of the mind

23:03that want something different

23:06and just let them talk together. I mean

23:10doing parts therapy

23:14or

23:16finding out when the the inner saboture

23:20came into [snorts] being because it can

23:22happen that this part had a different

23:26job in the past and something changed so

23:29it changed its direction.

23:33In this case, very often I do a an age

23:37regression

23:39to help the part to go in a more healthy

23:43direction.

23:46>> The the the example that comes to mind

23:50if if say this person um

23:55always uh doesn't doesn't succeed or

23:59doesn't the sabotur

24:02intervenes. So they don't so they

24:04sabotage whatever they're working on.

24:07You have you regress them to some sort

24:10of experience or memory in which that

24:14was the safe response.

24:17>> Yes.

24:18>> And and then you

24:21>> and then you

24:21>> the best adaption.

24:24>> Okay. at the time. And and then the

24:27conversation continues with the sabotur

24:31and um

24:34continue.

24:37Well, I if if there is an experience in

24:41the past, I mean an initial sensitizing

24:44event, I often do

24:48uh trauma therapy because it's often of

24:51trauma

24:53and

24:54where there are different routes main I

24:57mean the usual way is to let them

25:00reexperience

25:02um what happened in a way that they can

25:07um weaken the emotional response

25:11so that

25:13they see it just as something objective

25:17like having had a different shoe size as

25:20a fouryear-old.

25:22>> Mhm. Okay. [clears throat]

25:25And of course, if there was a

25:27perpetrator,

25:30they have every right to speak with the

25:33perpetrator in a way that makes um the

25:37perpetrator beg them to forgive them.

25:43[snorts]

25:44>> Yeah. In in my experience, I I don't

25:48typically do a lot of regression. In my

25:50experience when I've done it, you

25:53introduce the the perpetrator

25:56and one of the techniques is to first

25:59recognize the suffering the perpetrator

26:02had to go through to become that person.

26:06And and and then start then then forgive

26:13them, but also let them start to feel

26:16the the guilt the perpetrator has. and

26:19then point it out to the perpetrator.

26:22And sometimes that works. Sometimes you

26:24just have to kill the perpetrator.

26:28>> Uh well, the good part is that in

26:30hypnosis you can kill him time and

26:32again. [laughter]

26:35>> With as much joy asiveness. Yes. Okay.

26:38Yeah. Okay. Very good.

26:40>> But if possible, I use peaceful methods.

26:44Mhm.

26:45>> The method you describe is one of them.

26:49Another one is just uh doing it in a

26:53different way.

26:54>> I mean [clears throat]

26:55maybe there is no real perpetrator

26:59or the person does not want to do

27:02anything to the perpetrator.

27:05For example, if if mom told something to

27:09a three-year-old,

27:11the three-year-old usually does not want

27:14to harass mom.

27:17>> Yeah. Okay.

27:20>> And in this case, just forgive each

27:22other, love each other if possible,

27:28be gentle with each other.

27:31Okay? Or you can also

27:36do things in a more symbolic way. I mean

27:41feelings can turn into symbols and you

27:45can work with symbols in many different

27:47ways to resolve the problem or the the

27:53feeling that holds you back

27:56>> and maybe even change it to something

27:58better.

28:00That's a that's a a process I'm uh

28:02that's really integrated into I what I

28:04do. I ask someone to

28:09symbolize the initial feeling. It could

28:11be a craving for a cigarette or

28:14a burst of anger and then change that

28:18symbol to whatever the ideal response

28:20would be and and and begin to integrate

28:24starting with taking the symbol in their

28:26body and then feeling that that feeling.

28:30Is that is that what you're describing?

28:35>> Yes. Well, I do things differently in

28:38detail, but the general direction is the

28:41same.

28:42>> Mhm.

28:43>> Usually, I ask them to

28:48experience the present state, the state

28:52they want to change in a symbol

28:55and to form a symbol of the ideal state.

29:01And then they use a magic wand or

29:03whatever to change the symbol of the

29:07present as much as possible to the other

29:11symbol.

29:13And ideally they are the same when they

29:19look at them. And in this case I ask

29:21them to put them together and to see if

29:25they are really the same.

29:28If they are not, they still use their

29:30magic wand or something similar to

29:34change the old symbol till it's exactly

29:37the same as the new symbol.

29:41>> Okay.

29:44>> Often this helps, but of course there

29:46are other ways too.

29:48>> Mhm. [clears throat]

29:48Okay. And uh

29:52how how does the process progress from

29:55there? It sounds like it's you're almost

29:57finished, but how does it progress

30:01in the beginning?

30:06>> We are working on the the inner

30:08servitude

30:10when we found a way to either dissolve

30:15him or turn him into an airline with

30:19different new uh directions.

30:24Um well then I I ask my patient how he

30:30wants to proceed.

30:32We can proceed by doing analytical

30:34things like asking for the functions

30:39that a specific feeling or behavior is.

30:44Or we can do mainly symbolic work or we

30:49do we can do an age regression.

30:54These are the three main routes

30:58in in case somebody is not able to react

31:02uh [snorts]

31:03inside my usual treatment frame. Of

31:06course, I can also do mainly direct

31:10suggestions packed into Ericsonian

31:14stories or metaphors.

31:19that where possible and using auto

31:21sustain hypnosis autosystem hypnosis I

31:26ask them for the function of what's

31:30going on

31:33because very often

31:36um they want to protect they may protect

31:40themselves they may protect other people

31:44they may even protect ideals or systems

31:47like religions

31:50And when you want to protect something

31:52or someone, you need somebody or someone

31:55you want to protect that from, that one

31:59from.

32:00And when we find out

32:03if this is the case

32:06who or what wants to be protected from

32:09whom or what, we can ask the

32:12subconscious to find better ways to

32:15protect

32:17and maybe even find out that protection

32:21is no longer necessary.

32:26>> Good. But

32:29it that's just one possibility. Another

32:31one is uh that

32:34uh there is aggression inside somebody

32:39and I don't care if it's um based on

32:44it's a justified aggression or a

32:48non-justified as long as I find out it's

32:50aggression.

32:52that if it is justified,

32:54we can find new ways

32:58to reach what the aggression wants to

33:01achieve.

33:03And if it is not justified,

33:05we can find out how did aggression come

33:08into existence and what can we do to

33:12turn it to something else that is much

33:15more useful.

33:18>> Okay. And a

33:21fat function very often can be

33:25um guilt

33:29and well usually you can find ways to

33:33dissolve a guilt because very often it's

33:37a guilt felt for something that is not

33:40so important.

33:43I'd like to

33:44>> it may

33:46>> may be different or what could be

33:48different if I would treat genius cars.

33:51>> Yeah, of course.

33:53with regard to the interesting thing

33:55about uh and we we've talked about this

33:58privately is is

34:01a child has you you said has this desire

34:04this belief that their purpose is to

34:06keep their family together which

34:09>> was a I'd never concerned about thought

34:12about and when they witness their their

34:15parents fighting

34:18just by witnessing it they think they're

34:20somehow responsible for it and they feel

34:22guilt

34:23Yes.

34:24>> Wow.

34:25>> That's so true. Often [clears throat]

34:28guilt develops from this. They think

34:32they are the reason for the fight

34:36even though they are perfectly innocent.

34:40And in this case, it often helps to lead

34:44the adult cell back to the child and

34:49help the adult to clarify things, to

34:54balance things with the young child.

34:59It often helps, but sometimes it doesn't

35:02help perfectly.

35:04But let's just um

35:08let it stay there. Let's imagine that it

35:10helped because there is a fourth

35:14um function that also happens often

35:17which is self punishment.

35:21It's related to guilt but you can feel

35:24guilty without

35:27as it were whipping yourself.

35:30>> Okay.

35:34And of course, if people want to punish

35:39themselves, we need to find out why they

35:43want to punish themselves and find

35:45better ways or even dissolve the need

35:49for punishment.

35:53>> These are the four main reasons

35:56described in autosystem hypnosis. In my

36:00personal experience, of course, there

36:02are others. For example, Leslie Lor, he

36:07described several other reasons like

36:10inner conflict, which also plays a role

36:13in autosystem hypnosis, but usually at

36:16another place.

36:18Something that's called organ language,

36:21which means we often use metaphors,

36:25like um when I see that person, I like I

36:28would like to throw up.

36:30>> Okay? And

36:33uh sometimes the subconcious t

36:36subconscious takes this literally.

36:41Okay.

36:42So in the ideal

36:46once you've established those things and

36:48made the necessary changes,

36:51how does the how does how do you know it

36:53through the client's reaction and

36:55response?

36:58Um when I use the the ideal

37:02uh way of autoine hypnosis sorry auto

37:06system hypnosis I usually ask the

37:10patient

37:12uh is the solution a solution of 100% or

37:17less

37:19if it is 100% then I proceed for example

37:24by by helping the person to live through

37:27and imagines situation

37:30and ask how it's how it feels, what

37:33happens and so on.

37:35>> So you're b you're basically you're

37:37basically basically what you're doing is

37:39future pacing their response

37:42>> h in this case. Yes.

37:45>> Yeah. uh mainly to find out if if it

37:49really was strong enough to at least

37:52make make the imagination

37:55at it. But let's say that uh the

37:59subconscious tells that it's less than

38:01100%.

38:04In this case, using the main method of

38:09autosystem hypnosis,

38:11you treat the remaining heart as a

38:16resistance and the resistance does also

38:20a function and the functions are the

38:23same as the initial ones.

38:26>> I see. So you go through the same

38:28questions again and as I said before I

38:32also like to use Leslie Lour's um

38:36questions which also include inner

38:39motivation for example when you know

38:42when in war people get traumas and in

38:49World War I it was called shell shock

38:54and the main reason for shell shock

38:56usually really was to stay alive.

38:59>> Yeah.

39:02>> And when you know the motivation, you

39:04can find not in shellshot of course but

39:07in civilian life,

39:10>> you can find better solutions.

39:14>> Okay. Um and you can also identify with

39:19somebody so much that you

39:23um copy things from the person that are

39:27not so good. For example, you can

39:30imagine a psychoanalyst

39:32who copies Seedman Freud so much that he

39:35uses a pipe.

39:38[gasps]

39:39>> Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

39:41Another

39:43possibility is a suggestion

39:47that even though we we usually say and

39:50because it's true that hypnosis is not

39:53so well suited to make people bad, there

39:57are times when suggestions may work. Uh

40:02not to the fa to the best of the person

40:05who gets the suggestion.

40:09just leaving leaving toxins aside. Just

40:13think of zombies.

40:17>> In other words, they're

40:20they're uh automatically just sort of

40:23responding

40:24to these negative suggestions.

40:29>> Yes.

40:29>> Yeah.

40:30>> Yes. Exactly. And when you find out that

40:33there is a negative suggestion, you can

40:35dissolve it in many different ways.

40:39The easiest thing in my opinion is when

40:42when somebody suggested something bad in

40:46a way that's obvious,

40:49then you can for example turn the voice

40:52of that person into a comic character.

40:57>> Yeah.

40:59Yeah. That's a an NLP technique. Put Put

41:02your silly Make your silly voice sound

41:04like

41:05>> Mickey Mouse.

41:08For example, uh I think there there is a

41:11western with Clint Eastwood where there

41:14is somebody who writes about the nuke of

41:18death and there is a very cynical

41:23sheriff who says yes the duck of death.

41:28[laughter]

41:29>> The duck of death. Not the duke. The

41:32duck. I like that. Okay.

41:33>> Yes. [laughter]

41:35>> Oh, okay.

41:37you can use this method to make things

41:40hilarious.

41:42It often helps.

41:44>> And so, and so, uh, a client has gone

41:47through all of this. You've, you've, um,

41:51you've told them they can remember all

41:54the good, healthy parts of this.

41:57Um,

41:58and I always I always end with ego

42:01strengthening, just making sure they

42:04feel loving and caring toward

42:06themselves.

42:08Um, and at the end end result of a

42:11perfect session,

42:14[snorts] what's uh what's the response

42:16you've noticed?

42:19>> Well, of course, I let them go through

42:22the imagination. And I do future pacing

42:24to put it in NLP terms.

42:27And when things go well, I try to find

42:32out or to find something where I can put

42:36this thing into practice. For example,

42:39if somebody suffers from an insect

42:42phobia,

42:44I've got a I've got um plastic insects

42:49ready.

42:52>> Yeah. So even afterwards you you have

42:55them test it out.

42:57>> Yes. Where even where where possible I

43:01like to test test and test again because

43:04the only real feedback you can get is

43:07from real life.

43:08>> Right. One of my

43:10>> things may turn out well in in the

43:13session but later on maybe there is

43:16feedback that some things still have to

43:18be done.

43:21>> One of my you wanted.

43:22>> No. Yeah. I was going to say one of my

43:24mentors, he he worked with somebody for

43:26claustrophobia and at after the session,

43:29he says, "Let's go out to my car." And

43:31he put them in the trunk of the car and

43:33he just says, "You're you're safe. I'm

43:34going to be right. I'll open it up when

43:35you need it." And the guy just sort of

43:37rested there comfortably in the closed

43:39trunk of the car. That's a pretty

43:42dramatic

43:43>> excellent

43:44>> pretty dramatic result

43:47>> that the police didn't ask for what's

43:49going on. [laughter]

43:52Yes.

43:54Okay. So,

43:56um

43:58in in the more challenging cases, what

44:01what would be some of the examples where

44:04maybe it didn't work perfectly at first

44:06or you or

44:08I mean there are lots of different

44:10examples. Maybe they were a little

44:11resistant to going very deep in hypnosis

44:14or didn't understand the instructions

44:16well enough or

44:19>> well when I usually ask if they

44:22understand the instructions

44:24and

44:26usually they tell me if they don't but

44:30of course there are people who resist or

44:33who think that they are not in real

44:35hypnosis

44:38and well part of The Elman technique is

44:42to doing a number amnesia or a letter

44:47amnesia.

44:49And in this case, I asked them if they

44:51of course if they showed amnesia, is it

44:55is it usual for you in the waking state

44:59to forget numbers all numbers?

45:04>> So you you have a verifiable test. Yes.

45:07Okay.

45:08>> Yes. And another uh another verifier is

45:13time distortion because most experience

45:17a long session as short.

45:20>> Yes.

45:21>> And then I just ask them to look at the

45:23clock.

45:26>> That's always a good one. I I sometimes

45:29even

45:30>> I sometimes even suggest when I'm waking

45:33them up that your eyes will open. It

45:35will feel like only a minute has passed.

45:37You'll be and I just sort of throw that

45:39in there

45:41and your eyes will open wide awake. It

45:43will seem like just a minute has passed.

45:45You'll refreshed, energized. And I count

45:47them up and after initial conversation,

45:51I'll ask them that question. How how

45:53long did that feel like? And get a good

45:57result. Yeah.

45:59>> Yeah.

45:59>> Yes.

46:00um

46:02they understand that something happened.

46:07>> But coming back to your question, what's

46:09what or when things don't work that

46:13well? If

46:15it happens that there is not one

46:19resistance layer but several ones.

46:22And for a more complicated issue, it

46:25often happens that you feel as if you

46:30are close to the solution, but all you

46:33did up to that part is that you just

46:38duck to the real cause. And when you get

46:42close to the real cause, it starts to

46:45resist man. Yes. Extremely.

46:49>> I see.

46:51And

46:52>> that's very good because now you

46:54identified it.

46:55>> Yeah. Once and then you just do the same

46:57process on the real cause.

47:01>> Yes. But of course I do many other

47:04processes. For example,

47:07pimble work one way or another is very

47:11helpful

47:12or

47:14putting people into a state where they

47:18go into their own land of fantasy

47:22in auto system hypnosis that's called

47:27uh translated into English the magic

47:30meadow

47:31where they go into a dreamland

47:34where They have several helpers. I mean

47:39um helpers that

47:42for example mean inner wisdom or healing

47:47and together with them they can they can

47:51experience things that come up

47:54spontaneously

47:57and they resolve them and resolving that

48:00what happens resolves the issues more

48:03and more.

48:05without them really realizing what's

48:07going on.

48:10>> Excellent. Okay, good. So, is there any

48:15more you can add to this? I have a whole

48:17whole bunch of questions outside of this

48:20as well.

48:23Well, sometimes it happens that somebody

48:26corrupts out of hypnosis

48:30>> and depending on what's going on, I just

48:33ask them,

48:35"Close your eyes again."

48:38Or

48:39if, for example, if they're anxious, I

48:43just ask them to stay awake. And if the

48:47weather allows, we go for a walk.

48:50And just talking about things in this uh

48:54in these circumstances often helps to

48:58resolve issues even though I really

49:01don't know well why. Of course, I do

49:05conversational hypnosis as much as

49:07possible,

49:08but I don't know what happens, but it

49:12helps.

49:14of course only most of the time there

49:17are always people whom you cannot help

49:23>> um what so thank first of all thank you

49:27that was awesome uh I always one of the

49:30things when I'm sometimes interviewed

49:33about my work is they ask me what's the

49:37weirdest the strangest thing you've had

49:41to work on for me I've had a couple of

49:44UFO abductions. I've had some people who

49:47want to become

49:49they have a fetish to be hypnotically

49:52submissive

49:53and I get a really interesting response

49:56with things like that. But um

50:00it's stranger requests and experiences

50:02that you've had.

50:06Well, I also do past life regression,

50:09which is not weird for me.

50:13Sometimes they it's even it happens that

50:16people want to remember

50:19a UFO experience or similar things.

50:23>> Mhm.

50:24>> And that's interesting, but in my world,

50:28that's not really strange.

50:32the right

50:33>> strangest K

50:36strange if you're on a podcast and

50:38people are asking you what's the

50:40weirdest request you've been asked

50:42>> yes the weirdest request I had from a

50:47submissive

50:49who was lovesick

50:51and wanted to break free

50:54okay

50:56>> but in a special way

50:59and this was a challenge for me because

51:03I want to help people to be free.

51:08But if somebody is a submissive, the

51:10submissive wants to be free in a very

51:13special way.

51:15>> Yeah, that's a good They want to be

51:17free, but they want to maintain that

51:20submissiveness.

51:21>> Yes.

51:22>> Okay.

51:23>> Yes.

51:26>> And well, it worked very well and um I'm

51:29happy for the person.

51:31that because the feedback was that

51:34things developed for the better.

51:37>> Very good.

51:38>> But

51:39that yes, that was the one of the most

51:43challenging

51:45um treatments I did.

51:48Of course, other challenging things are

51:53people want to be helped and then stop

51:55talking. [laughter]

51:58Yeah, I love I love talking with people.

52:00I I I I take it I can get a whole bunch

52:03of good information about them just by

52:06letting them talk, but then sometimes I

52:08have one hour to work with them

52:10[laughter] and I've got to

52:12>> got to make sure we can squeeze enough

52:14into the hour where we're actually

52:16working with them.

52:18>> Exactly. That's um that's a real

52:21challenge es especially if somebody

52:23wants pain treatment and doesn't stop

52:27talking

52:29>> I know where the pain is located and I

52:32know that I if there is a mental

52:34component of the pain I can find out

52:37more about it in hypnosis but to do that

52:41the person

52:43would rather stop talking and start

52:46listening.

52:48Yeah. Okay. How did how did people

52:53typically find you?

52:57Well, of course

53:01that's hard to say because uh I've got

53:04my personal

53:07idea of myself, but let's say from

53:1260 reviews I've got so far, many say

53:16that I'm very empathetical,

53:18that I'm nice, that I've got humor.

53:22And this is true. I think if if somebody

53:26comes to me with something that's

53:30presses on him or her,

53:33it doesn't help the person to be pressed

53:36even more. I think getting lighter

53:39helps. And I also try to find something

53:43comical even in things that are not that

53:46comical. Mhm.

53:47>> For [clears throat] example, here where

53:49I sit now, yesterday I put a plastic

53:53bottle of lemonade here that by accident

53:57had been frozen.

53:59So I couldn't drink it and I put it out

54:02to the outside to let it warm up again.

54:06And while I was working, I heard a loud

54:08bang and saw that the bottle had

54:11exploded.

54:15>> [laughter]

54:17>> and and you you have a website um are

54:21are some of your so people and I I will

54:23share that and for anyone who's wants to

54:26visit it it's it's in German but most

54:29certainly Chrome will do an automatic

54:31translation and most uh web browsers

54:34will translate it automatically

54:37um and you work a lot with people

54:40remotely so even the fact We're like

54:44eight time zones different from each

54:46other. Uh barring the inconvenience of

54:50time, you could still work with somebody

54:52in the United States.

54:55Um

54:55>> of course.

54:56>> And so do you get most of your referrals

55:01from the website or is it mostly from

55:04other uh doctors and therapists and

55:07counselors?

55:10I'd say uh more than 50 to 70% come from

55:15my website, mainly from local search.

55:18But I also get referrals from doctors. I

55:21get referrals from satisfied

55:25patients.

55:27I get referrals from other therapists

55:30who see they cannot help the person

55:33enough.

55:35And sometimes because they just they are

55:40full they don't have the capacity

55:43and

55:45uh

55:47sometimes also from hypnosis recordings

55:51that I did. I mean I I published some

55:56and some people listen to them and say

55:59now I want to go to the author because

56:02he can help me even more.

56:04Yeah. Good. Good. Well, you are I I

56:09always my personal

56:11mission is to make the world slightly

56:13better and I'm I'm really glad that I

56:16definitely feel that you and I are on

56:18that same path. Uh there's this certain

56:21joy that that I get when someone just

56:25feels better and feels that sense of

56:27relief, you know, when they're done. How

56:30how how often do you tend to work with a

56:33client depending on what's the is there

56:36a typical or are there people you see

56:38regularly?

56:41>> Um there are some people I see regularly

56:46and these are people that have a whole

56:50bunch of problems.

56:52>> Mhm. And sometimes also problems where

56:55they that cannot be resolved in the real

57:00world.

57:02And I can help them to make them less

57:05heavy, less painful.

57:08And I help them to clean up their inside

57:12to

57:13to be less vulnerable.

57:17It also happens that I help somebody and

57:20the person I think the person is ready

57:24and then I get a call or an email. Can

57:28we can we talk again as soon as possible

57:32because there is a new insight

57:36and they want to

57:38deepen the insight.

57:42But [snorts] most of my patients and

57:46clients they come to me a few times.

57:51For example, when I do smoking

57:53sessations, I usually do three sessions.

57:58And for other issues, it depends. It

58:02usually between two and eight times. Two

58:06and eight sessions.

58:09Sometimes one session is enough and

58:12that's when I when I'm surprised too.

58:16For example,

58:19for example, when I've got an alcoholic

58:22who comes to the second session and asks

58:25me if I'm a sorcerer.

58:30>> If if you're Yeah. I I like to say

58:32people sometimes call a hypnotist

58:34because

58:36sorcerer

58:38uh witch doctor is not in a Google

58:41search. You can't find it and and you

58:43get some

58:44>> Yes.

58:45>> really good responses. Yeah.

58:49>> Well, in part that's also true for past

58:52life regressions.

58:53>> Yeah.

58:56And [snorts]

58:57well,

58:59there are also some people where I just

59:02know they don't have anybody who takes

59:06them seriously and listens to them.

59:11>> Yeah, that's that's something

59:13>> just listening.

59:16I I've just going to say I've known so

59:18many people all they want to do is get

59:20something off their chest just by

59:23talking to somebody and there's no one

59:25around and I've had that experience too.

59:28>> I just want to get it out. So I I deeply

59:31understand the benefit it gives

59:34>> and also there are some people who've

59:37got responsibilities

59:40and they don't they don't have anybody

59:43to talk to about difficult decisions

59:49or

59:51um they want to ask me what I think

59:55about it and usually these are very

59:59honest

59:59straightforward people and when they

1:00:02work inside a company they don't take

1:00:06into account company politics

1:00:11and usually I just hint them at

1:00:16>> [snorts]

1:00:16>> um what their plans could mean from the

1:00:19political side.

1:00:23>> Yeah, that's a good option. how to

1:00:26how to use safeguards.

1:00:31That's more coaching in a way. But when

1:00:34they come to me for a medical problem,

1:00:36that's just a side product. Of course, I

1:00:39also do coaching.

1:00:41And in coaching,

1:00:44I listen even more.

1:00:47And

1:00:49often in my opinion, it's a hypnotic

1:00:51process, but not one that's formalized,

1:00:57>> right? You you you form this outcome in

1:01:00your mind based on their conversation

1:01:02and just try and sort of steer them in

1:01:05that direction.

1:01:08I try to help them to open up to new

1:01:12possibilities

1:01:14they had not they had not realized

1:01:17before.

1:01:19>> Yeah.

1:01:20>> And I don't know what's good or bad for

1:01:22them. I can only tell them or make them

1:01:25aware that there is more to it than they

1:01:28thought.

1:01:31>> So

1:01:33we've spent most of the hour here.

1:01:36What's what's new in your future? What

1:01:39are the various projects you might be

1:01:42working on?

1:01:45>> Well, I want to focus more on coaching

1:01:49than before

1:01:51because I well I really like to help

1:01:54people who are not that let's say thick

1:02:02to get to improve. Of course, I want to

1:02:04help people to get rid of illnesses, but

1:02:10I also like to help people who are

1:02:14healthy, at least in the medical sense,

1:02:17to improve

1:02:20because I think so much suffering

1:02:22happens because so-called healthy people

1:02:27um

1:02:29come to unhealthy decisions or

1:02:33stay in unhealthy conditions.

1:02:36And

1:02:39if I help them to find their own way,

1:02:43they may have a better chance of

1:02:45happiness. And there are so many tools

1:02:49you can use. I mean, hypnotic tools and

1:02:53other tools

1:02:55that it would be such a waste to just

1:02:58know them and not share them.

1:03:03Yeah. If you were to

1:03:07ask, if you were I'm giving you an

1:03:10opportunity now

1:03:12to to

1:03:15ex explain to anyone who's listening

1:03:18something that you think anyone would

1:03:20value. Would there be what would you

1:03:22want to tell them?

1:03:29um

1:03:31you well well now I come back to NLP

1:03:36the map is not the territory

1:03:40and when you think you are somewhere you

1:03:44don't even know if it's the map if it's

1:03:47the territory or if it's just your own

1:03:50imagination perception

1:03:54you always have freedom

1:03:58If it's not external freedom, it's

1:04:00internal freedom.

1:04:03You always have [snorts] the possibility

1:04:06of choice. I don't say that you really

1:04:10have the choice because sometimes you

1:04:12think you don't have the choice, but you

1:04:15only think you cannot choose.

1:04:20There always are further ways. Usually

1:04:24you,

1:04:26for example, many people think they are

1:04:30what what they are in this situation.

1:04:35And when they just start to look at

1:04:38themselves from the outside,

1:04:41they may find out that they are not

1:04:46what's in the situation, but it's only

1:04:49that they are in the situation.

1:04:53And this brings freedom

1:04:56and also more opportunities.

1:05:03>> I think that's a a wonderful

1:05:06bit of advice to recognize we always

1:05:08have more choices. I I appreciate you

1:05:10sharing that.

1:05:12And uh what uh thank you Zigfrieded Min.

1:05:17I deeply appreciate it. Uh I'm going to

1:05:20I'm going to share uh in in in the links

1:05:24uh below I'll share your website um and

1:05:27people

1:05:29>> can reach out to you through email um

1:05:31and if they want and I I wish you the

1:05:35very best and again I appreciate you

1:05:37taking the time.

1:05:40>> It was a pleasure Dave. Feeling dunk

1:05:43mind.

1:05:44>> Feeling dunk.

1:05:46Cheers. Mind fry.