Chris Williamson On Optimization Culture; Longevity Lessons from 1100 episodes of Modern Wisdom

0:00There's no such thing as not drilling a

0:01habit. Even inaction is a habit. There's

0:04no impartial decision. Not making a

0:06decision is still a decision. Like I

0:08started off in the productivity world.

0:09>> I did a big essay on my YouTube channel

0:12talking about my thoughts on

0:13optimization culture.

0:15>> Which of what we're being [music] told

0:16is [ __ ] and which is actually very

0:18high yielding. And I think if we can

0:20help them discern that signal from noise

0:23and then say, "Look, you're fine doing

0:2410 20 minutes a day as long as you do it

0:26every day." Yes. So find something that

0:28works for you that you can [music] stick

0:29to with consistency.

0:30>> What do you like? What do you enjoy to

0:32do?

0:32>> Do more of it.

0:33>> So you have already achieved the goals

0:34that you said would make you happy. You

0:36said it would be when you got a new car

0:37and then your happiness faded. You said

0:38it would be when you got a job promotion

0:40and then your happiness faded. If not

0:41now, then when?

0:42>> You spent many years talking to people

0:45about how to optimize for your health

0:46and then you get this diagnosis. [music]

0:48Right. You can do everything right.

0:50>> Mhm.

0:50>> Right. And and still

0:52>> get smashed in the face by reality.

0:54Yeah. How did you manage [music] to

0:56continue working

0:57>> with difficulty? I basically kind of

0:59shut down my life outside of I had two

1:01jobs. Fix myself and run the show.

1:03>> You've obviously been exposed to a lot

1:05of these things. You've tried probably

1:06nearly everything. If you had to remove

1:08all of them except three, what would you

1:10keep?

1:24This is actually a little bit weird for

1:27me and I'll tell you why.

1:3190% of the guests that we have on are

1:34scientists who are on our council or

1:36like physicians or thought leaders

1:38within a very narrow vertical.

1:41>> Didn't you have Robert Downey Jr. on

1:42>> Chris? Let's cut that out. I was going

1:45to go on to say aside from a few

1:47members, right? And so, um, these are

1:51people that have been through the

1:53experience

1:54>> and are ambassadors, right?

1:56>> You're you're not Robert Downey Jr. or

1:58the scientist. I think you're probably

2:00one of very few people in the world, if

2:04not

2:07a single person in the world that's

2:09spoken to the most amount of experts

2:12that sit within that other category. So,

2:15you're almost the mirror.

2:17>> Do I feel like a rival to your level of

2:19exposure and expertise to the greatest

2:22clinicians on the plan?

2:23>> Yeah. Only difference between us is the

2:254 and a half million YouTube subscribers

2:27and

2:28>> more than a billion views. That's with

2:30other than that. Yeah.

2:31>> Yeah. Uhhuh.

2:32>> It's very competitive.

2:33>> You've been doing this for nine years

2:35now.

2:35>> Correct.

2:37Nine years ago when you set out to do

2:39this,

2:40was the ambition to build a top 10

2:44podcast and focus specifically on how to

2:47like help people to optimize their

2:49health or is that something that you

2:51like just grew into over 10020 episodes?

2:56>> Yeah. I mean, nine years ago, I was

2:58still running nightclubs in the

2:59northeast of the UK. I'm from a very

3:01working-class town. Uh, state primary,

3:04state secondary, state six form college.

3:06First person in my family to complete

3:08university. Did two degrees at

3:09Newcastle. Um, within the first week or

3:12so of being at uni, had spent all my

3:14money on freshers week getting drunk.

3:16>> Yeah. Like a good northern boy.

3:18>> Uh, so my right of passage was

3:20completed. I needed to get a job. I

3:21started flying for nightclubs, running

3:23nightclubs, running events. Got a

3:25franchise. Started working with Luke

3:27Betts who's co-founder of Newtonic. And

3:30um

3:30>> he's here somewhere.

3:31>> He's hiding in the background. And

3:33altogether that meant I I really got

3:36into business, but I started to fall out

3:38of love with the world of nightlife

3:39toward the end of my 20ies. A lot of

3:41guys do that. They find something that's

3:43kind of their initial obsession as an

3:45adult. Maybe they're obsessed with a

3:46sport. I was obsessed with cricket as a

3:48kid. I played a lot to a high level and

3:50then I had another obsession and that

3:51was business. And oh, this might be my

3:54thing for life. And some people they

3:56find that thing early on. But I have

3:58this idea called the manopause. And this

4:00is a period toward the end of a guy's

4:0220s where he sort of grows up against

4:04the shell of this structure that he's

4:06made for himself. Like the modes of

4:08reward and fulfillment and status and

4:11acclaim that he used to have, they're

4:13not quite functioning the same way.

4:15They're not giving him the same sort of

4:17return that he was used to. And that

4:20happened to me. And I started the pod. I

4:22was listening to a lot of Rogan and Sam

4:24Harris and Jordan Peterson and Alandon

4:26from the School of Life,

4:28>> you know, getting into Ben Greenfield,

4:29early stage biohacking, uh, Teimu Arena

4:32that wrote the biohackers handbook back

4:34in the day. I've still got a copy of

4:36that somewhere. I, oh, it'd be cool like

4:37if I if I started my own show,

4:40>> I could talk to these people and then

4:41maybe I'd get to ask them the questions

4:43I want

4:44>> to know because sometimes people ask

4:45what I want to know, but other times I

4:47have an idea about what I would have

4:48said on the podcast.

4:49>> You're shouting at the screen.

4:50>> No, no, no, no. Don't ask him about

4:52that.

4:52>> Yeah.

4:52>> Uh and yeah, I

4:55>> launched it. It took about six months to

4:56come up with the name. I had divine

4:58intervention for modern wisdom. And then

4:59start of 2018, began the pod. At that

5:02point, I was doing a lot of CrossFit. So

5:03I think my fourth fourth and fifth

5:06episode were with Dave Castro, uh

5:09director of the CrossFit Games, and Dan

5:10Bailey, like 10 times CrossFit Games

5:12competitor. That was really fun.

5:14>> And then I the show has basically been

5:18one thinly veiled autobiography. It's

5:20slowly tracking my interests over time.

5:23So, a lot of productivity in the first

5:25200 episodes. David Allen's getting

5:27things done is GTD method for

5:29productivity. Thiago Forte's second

5:32brain. Um, how to remember things like

5:35the Anki space repetition, Ebing House

5:37forgetting curves, and then I moved on

5:39to I'm going to do a bit more training.

5:40So, a lot of bodybuilding, like tons of

5:42bodybuilding and uh a lot of CrossFit in

5:44there. Uh so health and fitness has

5:46always been a part of my life but I've

5:48just indulged shamelessly indulged my

5:51own interests and that's kind of moved

5:53with me. So if you want to know what's

5:54happening in my personal life just look

5:56at the broad themes in the podcast over

5:58the last 50 episodes and like that's

6:00that's the thing that's what's going on

6:01with me. It must be unusual for you to

6:05see how this space has exploded, right?

6:08Like back in 20189 there's what a

6:11handful of people doing it with any

6:13degree of popularity I suspect. But now

6:16you know the terms biohacking and health

6:19optimization

6:20>> have taken on an altogether different

6:22meaning and there's so many different

6:24perspectives many of them conflicting

6:27many of them overreaching.

6:29>> Correct. you know how has your

6:31perspective on this as a field changed

6:33over that time knowing that the field

6:36itself has changed so much but also you

6:38have changed as a person.

6:40>> Yeah, the velocity of inbound

6:44information

6:45>> is tough even as a audience member who

6:49gets to choose when they want to tune in

6:51and not. So being on the front lines I'm

6:53the vanguard of speaking to people uh

6:57you do need to use a lot of discernment

6:58and it's I I understand why there is a

7:01degree of skepticism and scrutiny and

7:04and sometimes nihilism or cynicism about

7:07the sort of health advice space

7:08specifically coming out of the podcast

7:10world because it feels like for every

7:13person telling you to go high carb

7:15lowfat there's someone telling you to go

7:17meat only and there's someone else

7:18saying Mediterranean diets and blue

7:20zones are great but apparent blue zones

7:22are just because of the way that

7:23people's passports were registered and

7:24birth records and

7:26>> just I I give up, right? And you don't

7:29want to get people to the point where

7:30they say I give up. So for me a degree

7:32of discernment has been really

7:33important, but you're right. I mean the

7:34the word biohacking was the hot sexy

7:36thing. Like for me, Ben Greenfield, Team

7:38Urena, like these were the guys were at

7:40the forefront. And then we get to sort

7:41of 2021

7:43Huberman comes along. Uh Peter Aier

7:47Ronda Patrick you know people that are

7:49much more evidence-based in how they're

7:51going about things people that are

7:52proper MDs you practicing physicians in

7:54that sort of a way. Okay. And the clock

7:56begins to roll forward a little bit

7:57more. And then we have like a Brian

7:58Johnson you know somebody who's much

8:00more experimental with what he's doing

8:01very he's like basically a re

8:03resurrection of what used to be called

8:05the quantified self movement. I don't

8:06know whether you remember that from

8:07forever ago. quantified self people

8:09trying to track everything in their

8:10life. And now we have AI and AI is

8:12coming. So it's confusing and I get it.

8:14But the right experts, at least as far

8:18as I've found, have a degree of

8:20playfulness with stuff that's uh cutting

8:25edge and as yet this is interesting.

8:27It's showing interest at the moment

8:28where the the term that I use is bro

8:31science, which is a great way to get out

8:33of saying this might be [ __ ] but I

8:34think I'm going in the right direction.

8:35But the the way that academics do it, I

8:37learned this from academics. They said

8:39it's directionally correct.

8:40>> Sure. Yeah.

8:41>> That's how they refer to it as, which is

8:43basically the specifics, the specifics

8:45are uncertain, but the action seems to

8:47go in this way. So it's like it's

8:48directionally correct. It seems like

8:50fasting has some effect other than just

8:53calorie restriction. We're unsure what

8:55they are yet. They appear in animal

8:56models and we're not too sure what

8:57they're a correlation.

8:58>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, okay,

9:00the problem is that's not very sexy.

9:02>> So your sexiest commentators will be

9:04ardent. This is what we This is the

9:06carnivore diet is exactly this is why it

9:08happens. Meat and fruit, you can't have

9:10fructose or you can make sure you don't

9:12have tubers. Tubers are going to be too

9:13and the people that come in and are I

9:15think you should be highly suspicious of

9:18unless it's a wellressearched piece of

9:19of science because otherwise

9:22almost everybody is going to say I'm

9:25sorry it's not sexy but we don't know.

9:26>> How do you tow that line, you know,

9:29between

9:31something that is sexy and something

9:32that is true?

9:34Yeah, mercifully for me, because I'm not

9:36the expert, I get to be the idiot in

9:38every room. I've made a career out of

9:39being the most stupid person in every

9:41conversation. It's brilliant. And I

9:44basically get to ask the questions at a

9:46level of ignorance that I think

9:50sometimes is disarming. I'm not great.

9:52I'm not like Louis Thuru. Louis Thuru

9:53is, you know, sort of the master of this

9:54kind of thing. Yeah. But there's a a

9:56level of ignorance which can be

9:58disarming to people. And it actually,

10:00you know, just as a piece of advice

10:02generally for asking people questions,

10:04the simpler the question, there is no

10:06such thing as too stupid of a question.

10:08Asking for the definition of a word that

10:09somebody just used,

10:10>> asking for like why do you think that's

10:12the case or what what what's the best

10:15evidence for that? Simple questions,

10:17right? That is actually kind of what you

10:18want to know. um can often cause people

10:22who have a degree of expertise to falter

10:26a little bit because they haven't been

10:27asked a question that's that basic in so

10:29long. They haven't been in a room with

10:30someone that's as ignorant as I am

10:32>> for quite a while. And if you're

10:35prepared to own your ignorance for a

10:36long time, I felt like I I had to have

10:39this sort of dick measuring competition

10:42between me and the guest. And it wasn't

10:43a dick measuring competition because

10:44they're the expert, but I wanted to like

10:46show I've read the book. I promise I've

10:47read the book. like I really know like I

10:49respect your time and because I respect

10:51your time I've done all of this research

10:52andah as opposed to now like even if I

10:55do know all of the things I'm like yeah

10:56but like I don't understand

10:58>> I don't understand why information is a

11:00bad thing like I just don't get it or

11:02whatever

11:02>> you're being the voice of the audience

11:04>> to a degree but also like the voice of

11:06the most stupid pass part of myself or

11:08the most uninformed part of myself and

11:10you know everybody says just drill the

11:13basics over and over and yet many people

11:16in an audience will get fatigued or feel

11:18like why are we going back? We know

11:20cold, dark, quiet for sleep, right? Like

11:22what we we don't need to go back over

11:23this. I'm like, all right. Well, if we

11:24don't need to go back back over it, why

11:26aren't you doing it?

11:28>> Like, if this advice that is the

11:30mainstay of one particular area, which

11:32is supposed to be very important, no

11:34distractions, turn notifications off, no

11:35phone after 9:00 p.m., no phone before 8

11:37in the morning, blah blah blah. Oh,

11:39yeah. We've heard that before. All

11:40right. Are you doing it? No. Okay. Well,

11:42you need to hear it again then. like

11:43because I or from a different angle or

11:45with more justification. Um so yeah, I

11:48like to like

11:49>> bring that up because I just mentioned

11:50that in the lift that I don't do it.

11:52>> No, no, no, no. I would never do that to

11:53you, Chris.

11:54>> Feels like a dick.

11:54>> I would never do that to you.

11:55>> Can Can I ask you about you know, you

11:57you reference about being the most

12:00ignorant person in the room.

12:02>> You know, by very definition,

12:05>> that's not the case anymore because

12:07you've spent so much time with so many

12:09brilliant people. who can't not have

12:10absorbed so much of their wisdom.

12:14>> Do do you feel like

12:18and I'm speaking

12:20because I feel like this at times like

12:22the less you know sometimes is there is

12:24a bliss to that ignorance early on.

12:26>> Massively

12:27>> massively. Do you feel like that has

12:30>> made things more difficult the more you

12:32know?

12:33>> Uh there was certainly a a like valley

12:35of despair that I went through. Uh, I

12:38think relinquishing

12:40the, "Oh my god, there's so much that I

12:42don't know and there's so much that I do

12:44and that means it's complex." Letting go

12:46of that kind of self-inforced pressure

12:48is an art form. Um, you know, you

12:51should, it's kind of like I think about

12:53it like um a version of Pandora's box.

12:56So, imagine that you have a room and in

12:58that room there's a box and in the box

13:00are a ton of children's toys and plugs

13:02and just like brick brack stuff. And if

13:06you decide to open that box, all the

13:08lights in that room are going to get

13:09switched off and everything's going to

13:11go everywhere. And for the rest of your

13:12life, you're going to have to go around

13:14stepping on stuff that hurts, picking it

13:16up and slowly putting it back in the

13:17box. So, you need to kind of make the

13:19decision if I'm going to do this thing,

13:21if I'm going to learn to understand

13:22myself and the world around me, which is

13:24what the tagline for modern wisdom has

13:26been for a long time. Life is hard.

13:28>> This podcast,

13:29>> this podcast will help. Uh, and

13:31understand yourself and the world around

13:32you. If you want to understand yourself

13:33and the world around you, if you get

13:34halfway in and try to reverse back out,

13:38you're left with all of the questions

13:39that were generated by the beginning of

13:41your knowledge and none of the answers

13:42that would be done by attaining

13:43something that looks like content

13:45mastery or at least like full awareness

13:47of of whatever it is. And um that's not

13:50for me to say that I've managed to

13:51complete anything really, but I have got

13:53myself to a much better level of peace.

13:55And I think AI

13:59uh uncertain geopolitical climate,

14:01what's happening with the future, am I

14:02going to have a job? That

14:04>> uncertainty that people have in of

14:06what's coming down the pike is causing

14:08people to really lean away from

14:12overwhelm of information. So I think a

14:13lot of it is about simplicity. And now

14:16what I'm doing on the show is trying to

14:17have much more of a laugh. It's much

14:18more parasocial. I've got a lot of the

14:20Andrew Huban came on with his cousin

14:21who's a world famous comedian and one of

14:23my friends who's another world famous

14:24comedian and we just we talked it was

14:26like hearing lads in the pub just talk

14:29[ __ ] around a table for three hours and

14:31it was brilliant and that to me you will

14:34leave those episodes now which you

14:36wouldn't have done in 2018 people just

14:38what does caffeine do how does the

14:40adenosine system work tell me what like

14:42how why does it impact my sleep

14:44>> whereas now people have learned that and

14:46I think a lot more it's sort of uh

14:49sneaking learning in underneath the

14:52guise of just enjoying something. All

14:54the best non-fiction books at the moment

14:55are stories. Morgan Hel's Psychology of

14:57Money is 23 stories back toback. It's a

15:00book about money, but it's actually just

15:01a book. It's a list of real stories that

15:03give you a lesson about money and it

15:05sneaks them in.

15:07>> When you look back over I mean, 1100

15:09episodes. Is that right?

15:11>> Correct.

15:12>> That's insane.

15:13>> When you look back over

15:15>> Yeah.

15:16all of those episodes there must be

15:18examples because I already feel this way

15:21and you know we've done 30 episodes 25

15:24published episodes

15:25>> and

15:28you know I will look back it's a very

15:30steep learning curve I would say

15:31>> the noob gains are real

15:33>> yeah um but the thing I've also noticed

15:36is know I don't always agree with the

15:38things that I said even three months ago

15:41>> when you look back that far back

15:43>> there must be episodes where a you've

15:46thought why did I say that and I don't

15:48believe that now and also had guests

15:51that did the same.

15:53>> Yeah. Uh there's a lot of a lot

15:56>> that's [snorts] not a critique by the

15:57way.

15:58>> No no I mean it's it's having that

16:00humility of well something that I was

16:03pretty ardent about or was prepared to

16:05say on a podcast

16:075 years ago I'm not now reminds you that

16:10the position that you hold now is

16:11probably going to be pretty malleable

16:13moving forward as well. So strong

16:15opinions but quite loosely held. Yeah.

16:16Is a good a good way to think about it.

16:18Yeah. It's it's funny. I mean you know I

16:21brought up Naval the first question that

16:23this this guy for the people that don't

16:25know he's the guy that founded Angel

16:26List which is the platform that a lot of

16:28investing and angel investing is done on

16:30sort of half philosopher half tech bro

16:34half

16:34>> Revamp.

16:35>> Yes. Yeah. Like half investing wizard.

16:37Um, and this first thing that I brought

16:40up with him, I said I read him one of

16:43his quotes from not that long ago and

16:46his the first words out of his mouth on

16:48a podcast I'd planned for forever and is

16:50my my favorite episode that I've done,

16:52one of them at least uh was I don't I

16:55basically don't fully believe with that

16:56thing that was said at a very specific

16:58point in time for a very specific reason

17:00and I'm not sure that I agree. And you

17:02know, he's a person that I admire like

17:04hugely from an intellectual humility

17:06standpoint. He said, "Often I disagree

17:09with myself and uh yeah, for especially

17:13when you start something new, you're

17:15going to have some prior coming in that

17:17are very quickly going to be dismissed.

17:20Like you're going to have an idea about

17:21how a conversation's supposed to go or

17:23about how much you're supposed to talk

17:24or not talk or about the way that you're

17:26supposed to spend time with the guest

17:28beforehand or whatever." And then very

17:30quickly, even if you believe it, and

17:31then you're going to learn something and

17:32you'll be like, "Oh, that's my new hill

17:36that I'm going to plant my flag of self

17:38of podcasting self around or of training

17:41self around or of dietary self around

17:43>> because that's the thing that got you a

17:45little bit of the way there."

17:46>> Yeah.

17:47>> And then there's this next bit and it

17:49all it's a a permanent journey of

17:53unlearning. That's what it is.

17:54>> Well, I think specifically for this

17:56field as well, there's science evolves,

17:58right? the pendulum swings. The way we

17:59were doing things even six months ago is

18:02not the way that we're doing them

18:03necessarily today. And I suspect that

18:05moves even quicker.

18:07>> How would you from your perspective,

18:10what have been the biggest

18:13broad wind cultural changes inside of

18:18the longevity field, a priority

18:20prioritization of something, a dep

18:22prioritization of something else that

18:24previously would have been the other way

18:25around? Have there been some big sort of

18:27trend swings that you've noticed?

18:30>> I mean, sleep for certain. You know, we

18:32go back 10 years. We weren't we weren't

18:35taking sleep seriously. Matthew

18:36actually, who we spoke about earlier, I

18:39think his book really set that off in

18:43motion. He's saved I I said this all the

18:46time. His episode on Rogan 11:09 I think

18:49it was

18:50>> uh

18:52changed my because I was a club promoter

18:55staying up until 2 3 4 in the morning

18:57multiple nights but driving back from

18:59Manchester to Newcastle sometimes

19:00getting in at 5:30 6:00 in the morning

19:02after having run. Yeah. Just wrecked.

19:04Absolutely ruined.

19:05>> And um he told me that the World Health

19:07Organization classes any type of shift

19:10work as a health risk. anytime like

19:12being a nurse, being a firefighter, uh

19:16working a night shift in a a petrol

19:18station, any of that stuff. And I was

19:19like, "Oh, I'm this is unsustainable

19:22long term. I can't I can't do this to

19:24myself long term."

19:26His book, I think, has probably saved

19:29a few million years of human lifespan.

19:32When you think about that, how many

19:33people listened to him on shows and and

19:36read that book and decided to make a

19:38change to their suboptimal sleep

19:40patterns?

19:41and that he will have added on to like

19:44multiple tens of thousands if not

19:46hundreds of thousands of people's lives

19:49many years. Crazy. It's crazy.

19:51>> Do you sleep well?

19:52>> Uh it's up and down. Uh I'm currently

19:55going through a uh ENT assessment. So

19:59both of my parents are loud snorers and

20:02I haven't inherited that. But uh double

20:05deviated septum, some like turbineate

20:08swelling stuff. So, I might have to look

20:10at a more

20:12uh invasive solution for that in order

20:16to fix

20:17>> straighten out.

20:18>> Yeah. To fix that.

20:18>> Looks fine from here.

20:19>> Thanks. It looks lovely on the outside.

20:21It's good. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a fast

20:22car that's horrible to drive.

20:24>> Have you, you know, given how many of

20:26these conversations you've had, are

20:29there things that are through lines that

20:31seem to be, you know, um, agreed upon by

20:35everyone? I can think of a couple.

20:37>> For health.

20:38>> Yeah. for health. Are there like a

20:40number of things that you think every

20:42longevity scientist specialist agree on?

20:45>> Sleep is probably the universal that it

20:48it kind of is the fundamental. I do

20:51wonder sometimes whether the more

20:53adventurous

20:56longevity

20:57biohacking people uh use sleep as their

21:02well see I do follow the science in that

21:05one area and then I totally discard it

21:07when it comes to supplementation or

21:09peptides or enhancement or whatever the

21:10[ __ ]

21:11>> Um sleep's always been there. uh ones

21:15that have changed for me

21:18looking at the difference between

21:21uh low and slow zone 2 to V2 max top end

21:25work like Norwegian 4x4 style training

21:28which is four minutes on three minutes

21:29off four rounds at a really high heart

21:31rate. It's horrible.

21:32>> What are you doing there?

21:33>> That's the assault bike. That's the

21:35assault bike. That's that's how I do it.

21:37Um, and I think the main study for that

21:42said

21:44one session a week for two years or two

21:46sessions a week for one year reversed 10

21:49years of heart aging in like the seinal

21:51study that that did and it was a pretty

21:53good sized group of untrained or

21:55relatively untrained individuals. Really

21:58great.

21:58>> But zone 2 was the hot new girl in

22:01school. Go low and slow, go slow to go

22:03fast, you know, all of these sexy

22:04taglines. So that was that's been a big

22:06swing. Um

22:08>> I would say another big change uh

22:10muscular training like bodybuilding

22:12stuff or uh muscle-based medicine which

22:15uh Dr. Gabriel Lion is promoting at the

22:17moment. Um

22:19certainly when I started far fewer

22:22people were talking about muscle for

22:24longevity.

22:25>> It was this thing that you did for

22:28aesthetics. It was the thing that you

22:29did for mental health. It was a training

22:31preference that you had. Um, something I

22:33haven't seen which I'm kind of surprised

22:35by and maybe it's just because people

22:37don't have as easy of an outlet is more

22:40of the uh stuff that I just did with you

22:43guys, the sort of hand eye coordination,

22:45cognitive function stuff. Um, that

22:48hasn't really hit the mainstream. I

22:49wonder whether it just feels a bit

22:50specialized. Why am I a Formula 1

22:52driver? Do I really need to do that?

22:54Ascendancy of Coal Plunge and then the

22:57falloff of Coal Plunge must be studied.

22:59Uh, it's kind of kind of crazy. Yeah, it

23:01came on. Everyone loved it. I'm so

23:03awake. This is going to do everything.

23:06And now it's like if you like it, it's

23:09good. And it will give you a state

23:11change, but it's not going to give you a

23:13trait change. It it seems like the

23:15evidence is like pretty mixed on that.

23:16There's some good stuff about the last

23:1830 seconds of your shower being cold and

23:20it reduces the likelihood of you getting

23:22cold, like the flu each year, which is

23:24pretty fun. Uh the sauna, that's ramped

23:26up a ton. the people of Finland kind of,

23:29you know, passed that on to us, I

23:30suppose. And then, but yeah, lots of

23:33stuff's changed. Sleep's been a

23:34throughine. Training's wobbled a lot.

23:36Diet has gone

23:40protein wasn't that much of a

23:41consideration. protein is everything to

23:44now we're probably overcooking it even

23:47by it's more than the recommended daily

23:50allowance from the whatever FDA the the

23:53US government but it's not as much as

23:56people think in order for optimal health

23:57like one gram per pound is for most

24:00people even people that are trained

24:02individuals too much like one gram per

24:05kilo is probably closer to where you can

24:06be and well maybe we're looking at

24:08micronutrients more but like listen to

24:10this like litany you know this this this

24:13war zone strewn of bodies that at one

24:16time were the answer to your health and

24:17fitness problems. And uh yeah, I'm just

24:20this guy like dragging this cart behind

24:23me with a ton of corpses of of dead

24:26modalities. Let me ask you then about

24:28the things that have survived cool

24:30>> those conversations you know

24:33maybe in fact walk us through

24:37what does a typical day look like for

24:39you when it comes to health

24:40interventions.

24:41>> Cool. So up around about 7 I use a I

24:46wake up this is not health intervention

24:48at all. I wake up to NPR. The reason I

24:50wake up to NPR is I found that my mind

24:52was unusually permeable first thing in

24:55the morning if I listen to music. If I

24:57listen to a song, I can't get it out of

24:59my head for ages. And I think that this

25:01has got something to do with the flow

25:03state, theta wave stuff, delta theta

25:07stuff that um if you actually want to

25:09get into

25:11a flow state relatively quickly for a

25:12writing task can just go to sleep and as

25:15soon as you get up jump into it and

25:16you're not far away within 30 seconds,

25:1830 to 90 seconds. This is Steven Cotler

25:20from the flow research collectives thing

25:21which is pretty fun. So anyway, get up.

25:23Uh I use these glasses called AO

25:25glasses.

25:26>> Yeah, I've got some. Yeah.

25:27>> Awesome. So, a lot of people will have

25:29seen seasonal effective disorder lamps

25:32and they are great, but you need to be

25:34looking at the lamp.

25:35>> Um, this guy that runs the company just

25:38put the same technology from the Philips

25:40light and put it on a pair of glasses

25:43over the top. You kind of look a bit

25:44like a cyborg. So, I throw those on cuz

25:46sometimes I'm up before the sun in in in

25:48Austin, Texas. Uh, element in water,

25:52short walk.

25:53>> Element as in the electrolytes.

25:54>> Correct. Element. Um

25:57the orange flavor is fantastic. Uh short

25:59walk, come back and then at the moment

26:01I'm going to train. I used to have a

26:02very elaborate morning routine for a

26:04long time and it was highly opulent and

26:07unnecessary.

26:08>> They've gone out of fashion too.

26:09>> The morning routine thing it has. And I

26:11think that that's because people's time

26:12is being squeezed. If you look at where

26:14lots of time people's time is being

26:15squeezed, it's being squeezed by the

26:17fact that they're wasting so much of it.

26:19>> Like the reason you don't have time is

26:21because you're being frivolous with much

26:22of it. like lots of people, kids, job,

26:24two jobs, all the rest of like

26:27obligations.

26:28>> But for a lot of the people that were in

26:30that world, it's just, dude, you're

26:32scrolling too much.

26:33>> Oh, you're just wasting your time. So

26:34anyway,

26:36>> walk train. Um, there's a bunch of James

26:38and Austin that are fantastic.

26:41What else will I do that's interesting

26:42when I get back? Flossing. Something

26:44that I just got told over and over and

26:46over again. I still don't fully

26:48understand the science, but uh, a water

26:50pick has been good. Do you see Dyson

26:53just released their new toothbrush?

26:54>> The camera on, I'm told.

26:56>> Have you seen this? Dyson released James

26:58Dyson released a toothbrush that flosses

27:01at the same time.

27:02>> Any danger, James, of sending us a

27:04couple of samples?

27:05>> It's sold out. They're sold out. You

27:06can't even get the crap colors.

27:08>> There's one of them that's a really nice

27:10like rose like pink color. It's a little

27:12girly, but it's fine. I'm comfortable

27:13with my sexuality. Fine. So,

27:14>> sounds right.

27:15>> I I I trying to buy one of these things,

27:18so that's fun. So, I'll be looking

27:19forward to that. Uh interesting other

27:21interventions that I use uh Newtonic

27:24which is the uh drink that I've

27:26co-ounded with Luke Betts James Smith

27:28and a couple of other guys um that is my

27:31daily driver for cognitive health. So,

27:34it's a science-based blend of

27:38choline, rodeiola, panics, jinseng,

27:40altheenine, some natural caffeine, B

27:43vitamins that are all methylated, like

27:45natural folate, blah blah blah. Like, we

27:47really really went through. It's the

27:48most sciencebacked way to improve your

27:50cognitive health in the moment and over

27:52time it compounds as well. So, hooray

27:54for that. That's new tonic. Um, what

27:56else will I do that's fun? Really loving

27:59red light beds at the moment. Really

28:01enjoying those. Uh, it's hard to find

28:03one that's good. Unfortunately, most of

28:05the things that are on Amazon are

28:07probably just red LEDs pointed at you.

28:10But if you can go to a place that has a

28:14unit, uh, you need to be between like

28:17four and 6 in from it. So, you can't

28:19actually be that far. Doesn't work. You

28:21can't just put it on the far side. It

28:22might do some stuff for ocular health.

28:23You can't just put it on the far side of

28:24the room and hope for the best.

28:26>> Red light hbot. I very very fortunately

28:29a hyperbaric uh facility in Austin

28:32closed down and in between that and

28:34finding their new place the owner just

28:36gave me his oxygen unit and the a hard

28:40shell tank. Hyperbaric oxygen therapy

28:42for me is one of the best interventions.

28:45I understand why it's not very popular

28:47because it takes two hours. It's a bit

28:49expensive and it's highly inconvenient,

28:52>> but it is so good. Breathing O2 for 20

28:55minutes on, five minutes off inside of

28:58this tank at high pressure seems to

29:00really improve cellular energy. And for

29:03me, I I feel great after doing that.

29:06There'll usually be a sauna in there, no

29:07cold, not that bothered. Um, I'll try

29:09and hit my 10,000 steps. I'll try and

29:11get as much sunlight as possible.

29:13Grounding, that's something else that I

29:15know I probably should do more of. I

29:16kind of feel good when I run on grass or

29:18sand, but Austin is, especially in the

29:20summer, is not the most outdoor friendly

29:24place. Uh, other stuff that's in there.

29:28Before I record a podcast, I'll tend to

29:29do a little bit of uh HIV resonance

29:32breathing. Like all of this is, this is

29:34typically not all in one day. This is

29:35like across a week. Um, little bit of

29:38resonance breathing is quite nice. Makes

29:40can sort of make you feel a lot more

29:42present. So, there's a a lamp called an

29:44M.alth health lamp and it's a

29:47>> how would you spell it?

29:48>> Ohm.alth

29:50is the website. It's beautiful looking

29:52lamp about that big and there's a stone

29:54on the top of it and it's got a 100

29:56hertz FDA uh certified heart rate sensor

30:00and as you hold the stone in your hand

30:02it's reading your heart rate and your

30:04HRV and then you breathe in time with

30:06the stone vibrating and the light going

30:08up and down

30:09>> and it maximizes the arrhythmia. So it

30:13gives you the biggest and this is a

30:14rhythm is the the the gap between the uh

30:18height of your heart rate BPM and the

30:20depth of it because across the entirety

30:23of a minute your 60 beats are not

30:25perfectly dissected by one second each.

30:28They speed up as you breathe in then

30:30they slow down as you breathe out. And

30:31by manipulating using an algorithm and

30:33the Wi-Fi, uh by manipulating the pace

30:36that you breathe at, you can make these

30:38huge swings in your heart rate. So you

30:42can go from like 61 to 72, 63, 70, 61,

30:4971, and you do that for uh 10 minutes,

30:5215 minutes, and it is one. It is so

30:54good. It kind it can kind of space you

30:56out for a little bit, but it's really

30:57lovely. And again, breath work something

30:59that's is kind of fun to do. Um, on a

31:02nighttime,

31:04the usual try and get off screens when I

31:08can. Usually horrendous at it like you.

31:10Um, caffeine. I'm a really slow

31:13metabolizer of caffeine. So, even if I'm

31:14having a new tonic, uh, with 400

31:17milligrams of althenine in, I can't do

31:19that usually after about 3 p.m. I'm

31:22asking for trouble. If I do it after 3

31:24p.m., I'm really asking for trouble. and

31:27reading in bed. That's like the for me a

31:30good fiction series like just helps to

31:34put my brain into some other mode. It's

31:36really hard to go back into thinking

31:38about that message on Slack that pissed

31:41you off if you're in the middle of a

31:43space battle or something.

31:44>> Yeah.

31:45>> Right. So, uh, interestingly enough,

31:48>> always fiction.

31:49>> Uh, on a nighttime. Yeah. If I try and

31:52read like some personal development

31:54stuff, uh, real world fiction or history

31:56might be fine, but if I try and read

31:58something that's too executive

32:00functioning adjacent, I go to bed like

32:04thinking about all of the ways I've now

32:05been inspired to use that in my life.

32:07Yeah.

32:07>> And it's too much. I don't need more of

32:09that on a night. So, yeah. Uh, reading

32:11fiction on a night time is great.

32:12>> Do you do you use a like a real book or

32:15a Kindle?

32:16>> I use a Kindle. Um,

32:18here's another one. uh blue light at

32:21night. Yes, not great, but it seems like

32:24most of the effect that people were

32:26worried about from uh using phones to

32:30impact people's sleep quality is more

32:32from the content that people are using

32:34on their phone than it is the amount of

32:36blue light coming from the phone. So,

32:38especially if you get one of the

32:39slightly nicer Kindles or probably any

32:41of the modern ones, mine are kind of

32:42old. Um you can make them warmer. So,

32:45you can make the light pretty warm and

32:46you can make it pretty dim. got control

32:47over the brightness and that for me the

32:49problem being like if you want to read a

32:51real book you need to have a light on

32:52and the light needs to be bright enough

32:54to be able to illuminate the pages of

32:55the book.

32:56>> Yeah.

32:56>> And I'm like oh well if I'm trying to

32:57make my bedroom a bit dark. Yeah. I'm

32:59like this feels a little bit like going

33:01against myself. So yeah uh Kendall

33:03earplugs. Big fan of ear plugs. Big fan

33:05of uh Manta eye masks. They're great.

33:08They're the best best eye masks on the

33:10planet as far as I'm concerned. Uh

33:13that's I mean I've done so much dude.

33:15I've done intrahemeral lines, uh,

33:17hemohyper oxygenation therapies in

33:20Vienna. I've gone and had an

33:21intrajugular line put in and lived in a

33:24hospital in Tijuana for 4 days and gone

33:26through like a a a SAF 100 filter. Lots

33:30of things. But when it comes down to it,

33:32it's like get up early, get some

33:34sunlight, train, see some friends, try

33:36to hydrate a good bit, don't eat that

33:38much [ __ ] Oh, uh, walk 10-minute walk

33:41after food where possible. like just one

33:45of my favorite health hacks of all time,

33:47by the way.

33:49>> It's

33:50the different when you start. It's kind

33:52of a little bit like uh people everyone

33:54that's got a Japanese toilet won't

33:56[ __ ] shut up about it.

33:57>> Everyone.

33:58>> I'm like, "All right, okay. I know that

34:00you've got them next door." [laughter]

34:02>> And uh everyone that gets everyone that

34:04gets a Japanese toilet just will not

34:05shut up about it. And it's kind of the

34:07same if you start doing a walk after

34:09each meal. First off, if you have three

34:11meals a day, 30 minutes is probably

34:135,000 steps. So that's you've got 50% of

34:16your way to getting the walk-in. Uh the

34:19way that your the contrlateral movement

34:21of your arms and your legs work means

34:23that the muscles that cross your uh

34:25digestion actually help to get some of

34:28that like food moving a little bit or

34:31the it gets your digestion moving a

34:32little bit. Uh regulates blood sugar. It

34:35it's great. And also, if you've just

34:36been for dinner with somebody, it's a

34:38nice way to wind it down and to walk

34:40away. So, yeah, I uh

34:42>> that's that's another one of my my

34:44again, Austin, hot. Sometimes I'm busy,

34:46I want to get back on my laptop or I

34:48can't bear to leave arguing with

34:50somebody on the internet or whatever.

34:52Um, but yeah, those are those are some

34:54>> Hey Chris, I think people listening

34:58will feel like that's a lot, right? Like

34:59you've obviously been exposed to a lot

35:01of these things. You've tried probably

35:02nearly everything.

35:03>> Yeah. Um,

35:05if you had to remove all of them except

35:08three, what would you [clears throat]

35:09keep?

35:10>> Morning light, which ideally you don't

35:12even need the glasses for. If you live

35:14somewhere that's got sunlight that it's

35:17so I wish it wasn't so much of a meme

35:19around Huberman

35:21>> because

35:22>> it is so important and it is so good. is

35:25such a hack. And I for me, if I do get

35:28that, the likelihood of my day going

35:29well is so much higher. And if I don't,

35:31the likelihood of it going badly is so

35:33much higher. Uh that would be one.

35:38Some form of training. And I would say

35:40the 10-minute walk after meals, at least

35:42at the moment, right? Like all of this

35:44stuff, this big well, this cathedral of

35:47[ __ ] that I've architected for

35:49myself of like health things, right?

35:51That's not I'm not doing that every day.

35:53probably not even doing that every

35:54month, but I will go through periods

35:56where I'll say, "Okay, I'm going to try

35:57and do a lot of HBOT sessions. I'm going

35:59to build those up and then I'll have a

36:00bit of a break.

36:01>> I'm going to do a some time where I

36:03really focus on like my wake time and

36:05then uh maybe I'm a bit busy or maybe

36:07I'm like going out with my friends. I'm

36:09going to shows or something. So, my

36:10sleep patterns a little bit off." Uh but

36:13yeah, for me, if I was just to do three

36:14things,

36:17I think there's a gap in the market for

36:19a company that makes uh curtains that

36:22retract in time with an alarm. I think

36:24if you made an alarm that opened the

36:26curtains to your house, I mean, it's

36:28usually easy for you to do it, too.

36:30>> That must exist already.

36:31>> It has to, but just I haven't seen it

36:33popularized. And I just think if you're

36:36already being smashed in the face by

36:38sunlight and you can get sunrise alarm

36:39clocks, they're they're not bad, I know.

36:41But still, you're it's artificial light

36:42and you're indoors or whatever.

36:43>> Yeah. Yeah.

36:44>> Um Yeah.

36:45>> Train in whatever form it is that you

36:48like. Uh

36:49>> sun in the morning and 10-minute walk

36:51after meals. Those for me three biggest

36:53movers. Um yeah. What what's the one

36:58bit of guidance, advice

37:02that you've heard of from one or more of

37:04your guests that you bought into

37:05straight away, but you really struggle

37:07still to adhere to? Cuz you know, I

37:09referenced to you earlier,

37:11you can tell me to not take my phone to

37:13bed a thousand times in a row and I

37:16still do it.

37:17>> I think that would be up there for me.

37:19Um, not the taking it to bed, the using

37:21it in the morning.

37:22>> Uh, so

37:23>> Oh, you mean like reaching for it

37:24straight away

37:25>> when Yeah. It's I sleeping with my phone

37:26outside my bedroom is that's the hack

37:29for that. Like just put the charging

37:30cable outside of your bedroom.

37:32>> Uh you don't want to wake up with no

37:33charge. So eventually either your

37:37fatigue or the phone's battery is going

37:40to beat you and you're going to need to

37:41go and plug it in and then go back into

37:43bed and fall asleep hopefully.

37:44>> I did it for three days last week and I

37:47was pretty proud of myself and then I

37:48crumbled.

37:49>> Yeah. You basically feel like a saint if

37:51you've done that. Yeah. Congratulations.

37:53>> Out of bed in the morning.

37:53>> You should be kned. Yeah. Uh, not using

37:56phone early in the morning is is a a

37:59tough one for me. The morning sunlight

38:00as well, dude. Like mornings have been

38:02challenging. So, I've been all over the

38:03place and time zones and stuff. So,

38:05that's been rough

38:06>> to be probably the number one for me is

38:09uh junk food, processed food stuff. Uh,

38:12I've got a big appetite. I have a sweet

38:15tooth. I like eating tasty things. I've

38:18probably got a

38:21heathen's pallet. Like it's just such a

38:24such a basic [ __ ] when it comes to like

38:26the food that I like. Like there's so

38:28many good options. There's always a good

38:30dinner happening in Austin, Texas.

38:32There's always an amazing restaurant

38:33that's got a lemon mering something

38:35dessert at the end or like salt glazed

38:39bread at the start. [ __ ] Like I So

38:43>> that's your kryptonite

38:44>> to a degree. Yeah. and um you know

38:47trying to dial

38:49continually dial diet in while not

38:52feeling like you're whipping yourself.

38:54>> Yeah.

38:55>> You oh here's another area that I need

38:57to unload some willpower into because

39:00I've had to keep myself off the internet

39:02all day as I've been trying to do my

39:04work of whatever kind. I've not let

39:06myself watch TV at night because I'm

39:08terrified that the blue light's going to

39:09ruin my sleep and I'm not using it when

39:10I get up in the morning. I've got to

39:12lift these things in the gym that are

39:13heavy and I don't want to lift and all

39:14this stuff. And now you tell me when I

39:15go out to dinner that I've got to say no

39:17to this. It's this permanent onslaught

39:20from the world of temptations. And I

39:22think this is why people are to bring it

39:24full circle pushing back against this

39:26sense of homework.

39:27>> Like God, I'm so laden down with

39:29obligations from real life. And now

39:31you're telling me I've got all of this

39:32other stuff to do and if I don't do it,

39:33I'm not a good person and I want to be a

39:35good person. I don't want to do it for

39:36myself. I'm kind ofing exhausted and I

39:38really don't want to do this thing

39:39anymore. That's

39:41>> how do you feel about this push back

39:42against overoptimization that we're

39:45seeing right now?

39:47>> I

39:49wholeheartedly agree with it to be

39:51honest. I think um the overwhelm of

39:56optimization

39:57part of which I was absolutely am part

39:59of that community like I started off in

40:02the productivity world.

40:03>> Yeah.

40:04>> Um I think it's I think it's needed to

40:06sort of balance things out. uh it is

40:09going to swing too far and it's already

40:11you will see it swing too far. Like guys

40:13are finishing triathlons and like

40:14ripping sigs. I'm like look one

40:18cigarette is not going to kill you but

40:19reliably one cigarette doesn't just

40:21stick at one cigarette. It does turn

40:23into a habit to some degree. And maybe

40:25you've got the if you've done a

40:26triathlon maybe you got the willpower to

40:27be able to be like one and done. I'm I'm

40:28sweet. I'll just do it after triathlons.

40:30Whatever like a cigarette after sex or

40:32something. Um

40:34I I think it's it's quite timely but I

40:37think it's part of a broader trend which

40:39is look health fitness optimization

40:42culture productivity it was this wild

40:44west where we could do all of this

40:45exciting stuff for a long time and now

40:47we've realized

40:49it's a bit overwhelming and much of it

40:52might have been speurious in terms of

40:53how effective it was and I just don't

40:55have that much time bro like give me a

40:57break.

40:58>> Yeah. Uh, I did a big essay on my

41:00YouTube channel talking about my

41:02thoughts on optimization culture. And I

41:04broke down my previously very opulent

41:06morning routine with breath work and

41:08reading and and and journaling and

41:10gratitude and meditation and yin yoga

41:12and prepping my food and salt and all

41:15this stuff. And um I understand that

41:18from the outside that looks and sounds

41:20kind of ridiculous, but I do think that

41:23there is value to condensing a period of

41:26hyper optimization to kind of just pay

41:28your dues.

41:30>> Like you can make a ton of progress in

41:31the gym if you don't do anything else

41:34for 6 months. But if you take 50% of

41:37that intensity in the gym and do it for

41:39a year, you don't make the same amount

41:40of progress. There is something about

41:42like really funneling all of your

41:44attention onto one thing and locking in

41:47for a good period of time.

41:49>> I I watched you, it may well have been

41:51on Modern Wisdom, talking about paying

41:53your debt,

41:54>> correct?

41:55>> Or paying off a debt.

41:56>> And I thought that was that really

41:58resonated. I think everyone falls on

42:00this spectrum somewhere where, you know,

42:02some people love tracking every single

42:06data point about their biology and then

42:09some hate it. I don't love wearing a

42:10wearable for example because it

42:12>> I get this like um baseline feeling of

42:16anxiety when I see my data is not as

42:18good as it should be or or or it doesn't

42:20represent how I feel

42:22>> right and then I by definition feel

42:24worse.

42:25>> But I do think that there is real value

42:27in you know the the people that are not

42:31doing anywhere close to the things that

42:33we already know to work. We have this

42:35great corpus of evidence to prove it

42:37out.

42:38If you're in that camp and you're not

42:41doing anywhere near enough, you don't

42:43really have any business talking about

42:45or critiquing over over

42:47>> your overtimization. My brother, you've

42:49had four hours sleep for the last week.

42:51>> Yeah.

42:51>> Um, so yeah, there's there's definitely

42:53two groups of people. One

42:55>> is the

42:58people turning themselves inside out,

43:00trying to optimize, and then exhausted

43:02and overwhelmed that they feel like they

43:04have to do more. And they're the ones in

43:05the anti-optimization group. And then

43:07there's the other group of people who

43:08get all of the prestige of now the wind

43:12swinging back in their direction of yeah

43:14I told you the optimization stuff was

43:15pointless. It's like dude

43:18your blood pressure is in the 160s.

43:21>> Like there is work to be done. Um and

43:26both sides aren't talking to themselves.

43:29They're using the example of the other

43:30as as sort of justification. But I I

43:33have this idea called advice

43:34hyperresponders. Like uh advice doesn't

43:37distribute like medicine. It distributes

43:39like alcohol. The people that are most

43:41at risk of overdose oning on it already

43:44take too much and then take more.

43:46>> So uh if you're the sort of person that

43:48is already nervous going up to women,

43:50then the advice don't be pushy with

43:52women will really land with you. And in

43:54I knew I knew I was too much. Yeah.

43:57Meanwhile, the dude that was blowing

43:58through boundaries and me too was all

44:00about just coasts past the advice

44:02unheard unseen. Um, the person that

44:05hears the advice,

44:07[ __ ] your feelings, just work harder,

44:10>> is already the one, the person that

44:12takes that to heart is already the one

44:14that is turning themselves inside out,

44:15desperately trying to squeeze every drop

44:17out of every day. Whereas the dude

44:19that's lying on his couch and actually

44:21needs to hear David Gogggin screaming in

44:22his face to get up and go harder, he

44:25doesn't even notice it. So because of

44:27this, the people that are already in the

44:28industry get overwhelmed with it and

44:31feel like they're getting peppered with

44:32more while there is an audience of

44:34people who still need it. And that might

44:35be like the median American might need

44:38to hear that, right? The median

44:40American's overweight. H

44:42>> how do we reconcile for that? You know,

44:44how do you

44:45>> I think that get through to them.

44:46>> Well, it it

44:47>> because I don't think that we need to be

44:49told I don't think even those people

44:51need to be told how important exercise

44:53is or sleep is.

44:56but they're still not doing it.

44:57>> Yeah, interventions aren't my aren't my

45:00strong suit. Certainly, one thing that I

45:02would say is that you need different

45:02voices from different angles because

45:06the podcasting industry, the world of

45:09health and fitness, everybody's kind of

45:10got their audience now to most of the

45:13territories have been captured, I think.

45:16And that means that everyone has kind of

45:18heard. I think that you need to do it

45:20from a new angle is the point. Like you

45:22can't try to emulate what's already

45:23been. Yeah. Okay. what's going to be

45:25new, what's going to be different, how

45:26am I going to how am I going to adapt

45:28this thing? Uh, and

45:30passing this sort democratizing this

45:33kind of information so that it's out on

45:3560 minutes.

45:36>> Mhm.

45:36>> So, it's out on Dr. Phil, you know that

45:39is where you will make the big impact

45:41because the blue ocean for if you're

45:43thinking okay how do we move the country

45:45or the world's health the most to okay

45:47where are the people who aren't

45:49listening not only that are not tuning

45:51into this type of podcast and there's a

45:53new angle on it that brings them in but

45:54aren't listening to that don't even know

45:56what the Spotify podcast app is

45:59>> sure

45:59>> that aren't using Apple podcasts that

46:00aren't subscribed to people on YouTube

46:02and they're middle America like

46:05>> which I would wager is more than the

46:07people that are

46:08>> bingo right

46:08>> bingo by a huge margin

46:09>> I I think I think the way to make that

46:12more accessible approachable is to

46:14really lower the barrier for entry and

46:16when we think about the things that we

46:18know to work I think people's

46:21understanding of the you know what's the

46:24minimum viable amount

46:26>> I think that they the the

46:30concept uh the um understanding is that

46:31that bar is much higher than it is right

46:33if if people were to do you know 10, 20

46:37minutes a day of these things, but do

46:39them forever,

46:41>> they would get a much higher yield than

46:43trying to cram in two, three hours a

46:45day, three or four days a week, right?

46:47Because it's much more likely that

46:48they'll adhere to it with consistency.

46:51It won't suck the fun out of life. It'll

46:53be easier, less fictitious, and they may

46:56well enjoy doing it. And so I do think

46:59if we can really get clear on what we

47:04are being told, which of which of what

47:06we're being told is [ __ ] and which

47:08is actually very high yielding.

47:11>> You know, most of the things, in fact,

47:13all of the things that you mentioned,

47:14there's evidence that they work for a

47:16lot of people a lot of the time, but

47:18then some of the things work for

47:20everyone every time.

47:21>> Yeah.

47:22>> Right. And I think if we can help them

47:24discern that signal from noise and then

47:26say, "Look, you you're fine doing 10 20

47:28minutes a day as long as you do it every

47:30day." Yes.

47:31>> So find something that works for you

47:32that you can stick to with consistency.

47:34>> What do you like? What do you enjoy to

47:36do?

47:36>> Do more of it.

47:37>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go

47:39to bed at the same time if you can.

47:41>> Wake up at a like don't have too much

47:43more than half an hour of swing either

47:45way. Like there's not really any

47:48researcher that I've ever heard who said

47:51regularity and duration for sleep are

47:55not as important as people are saying.

47:57>> Yeah.

47:57>> Like even that is something that

47:59everyone will happily harp on about and

48:01overe and overe because they know that

48:03the gap between

48:05>> impact and adherence

48:08>> is light years apart.

48:10>> Yeah. Sadly, on that note,

48:14are there things that

48:17you have been told by any number of

48:21guests that you know you've been told

48:22time and time and again there's great

48:24evidence for this. You've then looked

48:26into and there is great evidence. You've

48:28then tried it and you're like this just

48:29doesn't work for me.

48:32>> What didn't I like? Uh keto

48:36really do not do well with high fat. M

48:38>> I just I don't enjoy it. My palette

48:42isn't a massive fan of it. I don't like

48:43the foods that I need to eat in order to

48:45be able to get there.

48:46>> Uh meat and fruit, interestingly enough,

48:49I found fine.

48:51>> The problem so high protein, low

48:52everything else sweet,

48:54>> but the highfat thing, the fat was

48:56really just it didn't make me feel good.

48:58It made I I couldn't regulate my

49:00appetite particularly well. Even though

49:02I know that the evidence for keto for uh

49:06performance, especially for me being

49:09worried about cognition or caring about

49:11cognition as much as I do, I should have

49:13been a poster child for it.

49:15>> Uh but that that just was not my bag at

49:18all. And I, you know, Tim Ferrris, who's

49:21a good friend, is ardent about uh keto

49:24for brain function and mental health and

49:26mood stability and things. I'm like, I'm

49:29sorry, my brother, I just can't do it.

49:31So that was that was one. Uh I couldn't

49:34get into low and slow training for a

49:35while and now I've done it and now

49:36apparently I need to unlearn it and

49:38start doing hit instead. So we'll see

49:40where the research goes next and I'll

49:41have to I'll be doing like boxer size or

49:43something before Yeah. pilateses.

49:45>> Yeah.

49:45>> Uh that's those that's the the big one

49:48that comes to mind for me when you think

49:51about all these different verticals.

49:53>> To me, nutrition feels like the one that

49:56there's the most amount of discord

49:58still. Agreed. even in high science. Do

50:01you agree with that? And if so, what

50:05would you say is the one I I mean, look,

50:08I I don't love the idea of us having

50:10some nutrition religion, but do you have

50:13a specific nutrition plan that you

50:15follow that has worked well for you?

50:17>> Uh,

50:18yes. So, interestingly, I guess from my

50:21entire adult life, because I've been

50:23such a brol lifter, as a lot of dudes

50:25have, it's just I've optimized protein

50:27for my entire life. So that's like good.

50:28I in some ways closed my eyes through

50:31the dart of the dart board and hit

50:32something close to like oh this is going

50:34to be evidence-based in a decade. Fun

50:36like and it's just that bodybuilders got

50:37there first. Hooray for that.

50:39>> I love that weight training has turned

50:40out to be the

50:41>> Yeah. Hooray. Brilliant. Like I just

50:43thought I just thought I was getting

50:44girls. Um

50:46>> one [snorts] of the challenges of that

50:48was that I lived through the uh if it

50:51fits your macros era. And this was a a

50:54world where macronutrients, protein,

50:57carbs, fats were all that matters. And

51:00if you hit your carbs through Haribo and

51:03your protein through shakes and your

51:06fats through avocado, it is the same

51:08functionally as if you'd had it through

51:11three home-cooked meals that were well

51:13balanced with, you know, micronutrients

51:14and fiber and stuff like that in.

51:16>> Yeah.

51:17>> Turns out that the bodybuilders might

51:18have just been living like extended

51:19adolescence. Yeah. there. Um, when it

51:23comes to sort of the new world of this,

51:25I just had a really fantastic

51:27conversation, Harvard researcher on and

51:30he was taking me through, I think he

51:31tried the 10 most popular diets ever and

51:36he'd done ones I hadn't even heard of.

51:38Uh, is it the the sprint diet or

51:41something which is [snorts] high carb,

51:43low protein? I was like, what even is

51:46that? what it's like is including some

51:48sugars as well in there like actually

51:50you can get a ton of sugar. I was like

51:51well how does that how's that given that

51:54the opposite has been so touted around

51:56and he did everything he did pescatarian

51:57he did vegan he did carnivore he did uh

52:02uh blue zone adjacent Mediterranean look

52:07if I'm going to take from like all of

52:08the people that I've spoken to the most

52:11common approach I would say

52:14Mediterranean

52:17cranking the protein a tiny bit, like

52:20just pushing protein a little bit,

52:21because I do think that some of the push

52:23back against protein has been overdone

52:25now because it's in everything. It's in

52:27your

52:28>> nacho chips and it's in your cereal and

52:31it's in your the seat of the car that

52:33you drive and stuff. You got to pick a

52:35bit of that off and chew on it. Um, I

52:38would say across everything,

52:40Mediterranean adjacent diet with

52:43probably a little bit more protein than

52:45they would typically eat. But for me

52:46personally, skipping breakfast is just

52:48such a great way for me to get keep

52:53calories under control. Uh, backload

52:56calories and especially carbs later in

52:58the day where insulin sensitivities

53:00adjusted somewhat. Uh and it it does

53:04keep me a little bit sharper especially

53:06up until and then if I can do the same

53:08thing there used to be do you remember

53:09carb back loing from back in the day?

53:11Yeah. So this is this idea that because

53:13insulin sensitivity changes over time

53:16>> if you push your carbs toward later in

53:18the day there is something to do with

53:20nutrient shuttling that means that

53:22you're going to be less likely to use

53:24that as fat more likely to do I don't

53:26really know how the science figured out

53:27in that. What I do know is that if I I

53:29don't ever cheat with a Mars bar for

53:31breakfast,

53:32>> I cheat with a Mars bar for supper,

53:34dinner.

53:35>> I do the same. I mean, I just think it

53:37feels easier to stick to, right? Like I

53:41find it easier to not eat in the

53:42morning. I've never been a huge

53:44breakfast guy. Um, and then just

53:46condense that window of eating,

53:48>> push it toward the back end of the day.

53:49And then if you do principle,

53:50>> if you do the same thing again, you can

53:52kind of double cheat this or at least

53:54I've found this to be a really effective

53:55way. And this is kind of how I've eaten

53:57for most of my adult life now. If I miss

54:00breakfast, if I train, I do have a

54:03protein shake. The intra workout window

54:05kind of thing seems the science seems to

54:07be a bit dodgy on that, but whatever.

54:08Like, it's just good to go, okay, I

54:11trained, I'll put 30 grams of protein in

54:13me, 40 grams of like, hooray for that.

54:15Fantastic. Um, and then if you're lunch,

54:18if you can manage to avoid largely avoid

54:20carbs for that, by the time that you're

54:22in the middle of the afternoon, you got

54:23a little bit of adrenaline. So, you need

54:24to be comfortable with that, which I

54:27quite like because that makes me feel

54:28especially because I record at 2 in the

54:29afternoon. If I've had maybe

54:31>> to record at the same time every day,

54:32>> every day. Yeah. 2:00.

54:34>> Two o'clock for me is

54:36>> it's when you peak.

54:37>> It's it's I'm pretty dialed. I've had

54:39enough time in the morning to do some

54:41stuff for me to lock in for the guest.

54:44I've eaten a bit of calories, but like

54:46maybe some eggs with some berries, maybe

54:49some some vegetables on the side, some

54:52like kale or something like that. And

54:54then going to the episode and then like

54:57if I was doing macro tracking, I'm like,

54:59I've got 220 grams of car, 250 grams of

55:03carbs left for the day. I haven't

55:05touched them. I haven't had anything.

55:06Isn't this great? I can go through or I

55:08can have a big dinner and I'm not going

55:09to feel guilty about it. I can feel

55:11satisfied as I go to bed. So for me,

55:13back loing, not just pushing like

55:16calorie

55:17uh distribution, but also um the way

55:21that I discriminate different

55:22macronutrients throughout the day and

55:24keeping the carbs for the end of the

55:25day. It makes me feel full. It makes me

55:26sleep better, all that stuff. Hey, have

55:28you seen this um what's it called?

55:31Double double starch uh resistant

55:34starch. Is that it? So it's when you

55:36cook potatoes. Oh yeah.

55:37>> You cool them, then you cook them again

55:39and you cool them again and you eat them

55:40when they're cooled. And it's supposed

55:41to be really good for gut health.

55:42>> I think there is some truth to that.

55:44>> I've seen this. This is picking up

55:45speed. So, if I was to lick my finger

55:46and put it in the air, I think that

55:48we're through the protein revolution.

55:51Think that's done. It's it's still in

55:53everything, but it's it's not cutting

55:55edge. I think the creatine revolution is

55:56at its peak. I think the fiber and gut

56:00health revolution

56:02>> just beginning

56:02>> is on the ascendancy.

56:04>> Yeah. And I think the other stuff that

56:06people are going to be paying attention

56:07to, water quality, uh, so something like

56:10an aquatru, like a reverse osmosis or a

56:12Burki. Um, air quality, so something

56:16like a Jasper, uh, being worried about

56:18mold. So the mold co do great, uh,

56:20testing and stuff like that for mold.

56:22Uh, and then light quality. So flicker

56:25of LED bulbs, how that impacts people's

56:27health. All of this is like I'm getting

56:28a bit more exploratory.

56:30>> No, look, I I agree with you.

56:32Environmental like home health. I we we

56:35do a lot we do a very deep diagnostics

56:37assessment in members homes where we'll

56:39send in a bunch of scientists to go and

56:41analyze water, air, particullet, mold

56:44exposure, EMF, toxins.

56:46>> Wow.

56:46>> And it's extremely in-depth. This will

56:49be something that becomes much more

56:50scalable and affordable.

56:52>> The thing I love about those as

56:54interventions and tests

56:57>> is that they don't require the person to

56:59do anything. Right? So you remove all

57:01the friction. Yeah,

57:02>> you could be away from the home for the

57:04weekend, you come home and those changes

57:06have been made to improve the whole

57:08family's health. And I think the things

57:10that are going to gain lots of traction

57:13over the coming years are the ones that

57:15can yield us a return without adding

57:18more to our plate.

57:19>> A pivot from plastic containers and

57:22Tupperware to glass. Yeah. a pivot from

57:24classic non-stick pans to like hexclad

57:27or something like or a steel pan or um

57:31iron cast iron pans, stuff like that.

57:34But we just don't we don't know what we

57:35don't know, right? And so this is where

57:37I think it's it's such a challenge for a

57:39consumer. All of the trends you just

57:42mentioned when they were trendy,

57:46we were being told how important and

57:49efficacious they were by people who are

57:51really compelling,

57:52>> right? And it's so difficult even as

57:54people that work in the field who get to

57:56to have the opportunity to speak to the

57:58experts if they are great communicators

58:01of science.

58:03It's pretty compelling and it's very

58:05difficult to discern whether they're

58:07just a great communicator or whether

58:10they're

58:11>> doing great science.

58:13>> Yeah. Uh I mean this is true in every

58:17area of the world that we mistake

58:22conviction and fluency for truthfulness

58:24and expertise.

58:26>> How do you how do you determine that

58:28with the guests?

58:30>> Usually I'll look at their back catalog,

58:33their history, you know, what are their

58:34credentials like? What do I know about

58:36them?

58:36>> And then I've got a good sense now of

58:39where the science is at. An all right

58:42sense for a normie, right? I've got okay

58:44radar.

58:45>> Um, and I'll just poke

58:47>> I'll poke enough. So, if there's

58:49something that I know that I I should

58:51really quiz a guest on because they had

58:53this claim that they made in the past.

58:56Well, okay. I understand that you're

58:57very excited about this new thing, but

58:59it wasn't that long ago that this

59:01happened. So, what can you how do you

59:04know because I want you to be right and

59:06I want to be right and I want to learn

59:07from you. But I got to say it it sets

59:11the sort of amber alarms off a little

59:13bit when I think, well, there was this

59:15thing from the past and now how do you

59:17know that you're not just repeating the

59:19same mistake you made previously?

59:21>> Little pokes here and there, but you're

59:22right. I mean, this whole world, this is

59:24the whole thing uh with the mold co as a

59:27good example. Um it is to try and work

59:31out is there mold in my house? Have I is

59:35it affecting me and my physiology and

59:38how do I get rid of it?

59:40>> It is

59:42so difficult to do. It is uh arduous and

59:47and and

59:49it takes forever. It's so long to detox

59:52from mold. You're just binding taking

59:54colostyamine or charcoal or cola severe

59:57multiple times a day having to move your

1:00:00food around to avoid that from happening

1:00:02for months, months and months. went

1:00:03through this.

1:00:04>> I did. Yeah.

1:00:05>> Can can we talk about this?

1:00:07>> Sure.

1:00:08>> You know, you spent

1:00:10many years talking to people about how

1:00:12to optimize for your health and then

1:00:14you've get this diagnosis, right?

1:00:16>> How did maybe if you would explain what

1:00:19that was and then how that sat with you

1:00:22>> for someone who is, you know, I think

1:00:23the the highle message

1:00:26>> that I think is worth sharing is like

1:00:27you can do everything right.

1:00:29>> Right. and and still

1:00:31>> get smashed in the face by reality.

1:00:34Yeah. Uh

1:00:35>> yeah, America is a wonderful country,

1:00:37but it's water and its air and its

1:00:39building materials are trying to kill

1:00:40everybody that lives in it and the food

1:00:42as well. Um

1:00:45>> so yeah, that's that's kind of that's

1:00:46kind of the summation. Look, I I moved

1:00:48to America four years ago. Um, a lot of

1:00:51immigrants have this issue, a lot of

1:00:54Mexican immigrants do, too, that uh

1:00:56they'll have digestive trouble because

1:00:58they're not used to a lot of the

1:01:00additives, uh, the the just the raw

1:01:04foundation of what an American diet,

1:01:06even if you're trying to eat relatively

1:01:08clean, which I I always have done. Um,

1:01:10and about 2 and a half years ago, I

1:01:13noticed that I was being more tired,

1:01:16didn't have the same kind of energy, I

1:01:18was being a bit forgetful, and my mood

1:01:20was low. And I was like, well, I've had

1:01:22each of these things individually, you

1:01:23know, if I'm sleep deprived or if I'm

1:01:25having a a stressful time emotionally or

1:01:27whatever.

1:01:28>> Like, this just feels different and

1:01:30heavier. And it just kept getting worse

1:01:32and kept getting worse and kept getting

1:01:33worse. And then the start of 2024, it's

1:01:35like, oh, I'm there's really, really

1:01:37something wrong. like I don't feel good

1:01:39at all. And it turned out that the house

1:01:41I was living in had uh lot of mold,

1:01:44toxic mold. Three of the top four

1:01:48>> uh strains that you do not want at very

1:01:50very high levels and subsequent genetic

1:01:54testing that I did, you can have a

1:01:56polymorphism or a number of

1:01:57polymorphisms that mean you have poor

1:01:59detox pathways. So that's how I lived in

1:02:01the house, the same house as another

1:02:02housemmaid of mine.

1:02:03>> And he was like ripping sigs, going to

1:02:06bed at 3 in the morning and just loving

1:02:08life. Meanwhile, I felt like I was

1:02:10living on Jupiter with gravity that was

1:02:1110 times what it should be.

1:02:13>> Um, but all of this was found out and

1:02:14this is for anybody that's dealing with

1:02:17chronic complex illness. I really really

1:02:21feel for you because there's this weird

1:02:23game of Sherlock Holmes like guess who.

1:02:25It's like oh maybe it's the BPA cuz

1:02:27they're out of whack. Oh, well maybe

1:02:29it's the CMV. Oh, well maybe it's the

1:02:32EBV. Oh, well maybe it's you've got some

1:02:34Lyme disease, but it's like IGG, not

1:02:36IGN, so like really it's not active. Why

1:02:38would you be why would that be causing

1:02:39this? Oh, well maybe maybe it's your

1:02:42nervous system. Or maybe there's

1:02:43something going on. Maybe let's have a

1:02:45look at your B vitamin B levels. Well,

1:02:47you do have the MT. And you're playing

1:02:48this game of guess who?

1:02:50>> What is causing me to feel bad? And if

1:02:52you run enough tests on people, you will

1:02:54find loads of things that are out that

1:02:56are in the red. They're even extreme,

1:02:58but you don't know which one of those or

1:03:00which few of those are causing you to

1:03:02feel this way. It's the same as people

1:03:03that got bad backs. You can do uh an MRI

1:03:07of someone's lower back and it can look

1:03:09[ __ ] and they don't have any pain.

1:03:12They operate perfectly. And you can do

1:03:13an MRI of someone who's in chronic pain

1:03:15and you're like, "Spine looks great."

1:03:17>> And by the way, the same applies on the

1:03:19other side, right? You can do lots of

1:03:21things to optimize for your health. It's

1:03:23very difficult to pinpoint which of

1:03:25those things is working. Bingo,

1:03:26>> right? Or which lever is actually

1:03:28causing the improvement in cognition or

1:03:30physiology or

1:03:30>> so you end up this is how people end up

1:03:32with this sort of weird ritualistic rain

1:03:35dance that they have to do. It's it

1:03:37almost becomes more uh superstitious

1:03:41>> than it is an effective strategy. Like I

1:03:44don't know what's going like a baseball

1:03:45player. I do the glove, I do the glove,

1:03:47I tap the foot, I tap the foot, I shake

1:03:48the helmet, then it's done.

1:03:50>> Then you can't not do it.

1:03:51>> There's also a huge placebo effect both

1:03:53ways.

1:03:54>> Correct. So anyway, I uh I I go on this

1:03:56journey of trying to fix myself of uh

1:03:59okay, what is it that's been the big I

1:04:01got the vaccine. I got three because I

1:04:03was in the UK when it happened and

1:04:05>> had to

1:04:06>> you did 98% compliance with the first

1:04:08and I believe

1:04:10>> 96% with the second, 92% with the third,

1:04:12I think something like that

1:04:13>> and um yeah, there's Okay, so I got that

1:04:16and I didn't really notice anything. But

1:04:19then I got COVID twice and the second

1:04:21time was part of what kicked this off.

1:04:24And

1:04:24>> yeah, I go on this huge journey for

1:04:26ages. I must have done hundreds of IVs,

1:04:28you know, like tests, thousand, tens of

1:04:31thousands of supplements,

1:04:33binders and and phosphotetal choline and

1:04:37all of this stuff like just trying to

1:04:39counteract what's going on. And and uh

1:04:41then you're left with this period of

1:04:44time where you think, well, I'm supposed

1:04:45I'm young. I'm doing all of this stuff

1:04:46for my health. Like I I'm not being I

1:04:49was uh adventurous in my 20ies, but I

1:04:53was never like flippant or dangerous

1:04:54with my health.

1:04:55>> Uh and I like to party and stuff, but I

1:04:58wasn't insane. And now there is

1:05:00absolutely some dude in [ __ ]

1:05:03Nebraska,

1:05:05>> right? [snorts] Who doesn't even know

1:05:07that Andrew Hubman exists that can't

1:05:10find Brian Johnson on a map. Perfect

1:05:13health. Absolutely. lives in a house

1:05:14with mold that just does not care and

1:05:17it's totally fine could deadlift four

1:05:19450 without even thinking about it like

1:05:22just great and then you go okay how and

1:05:24this is where the finger gets pointed

1:05:26the reason that you're ill is because of

1:05:27your obsession

1:05:29>> you have somehow psychoggenically

1:05:32created this and you go it's a [ __ ]

1:05:34wonderful way to victim blame someone

1:05:36who can't remember how to tie their

1:05:37shoes which was a period I went through

1:05:39looked down at my feet and I was like I

1:05:41don't know how to

1:05:42>> do those laces Like if you're telling me

1:05:45that I've managed to psychosmatically

1:05:48hate the smell of water, hate the smell

1:05:50of cut grass, forget how to tie my

1:05:53shoes, like sleep for 12 hours and wake

1:05:55up feeling more tired than when I went

1:05:57to bed. I'm sorry. I just don't I don't

1:06:00think I'm that sophisticated.

1:06:02>> How did you manage to continue

1:06:04working

1:06:05>> with difficulty? Uh I lived in a hotel

1:06:08for

1:06:10hotels for like 4 months cuz my house

1:06:12was being remediated to people that have

1:06:14got mold in their house. The

1:06:17>> it is very very difficult to remediate.

1:06:20My my recommendation is strongly in like

1:06:2399 out of 100

1:06:24>> move

1:06:25>> move especially if you've got a landlord

1:06:28they cannot keep you in there. You can

1:06:30new to the rent find yourself a

1:06:32long-term stay and you know for now

1:06:34it'll be good. the changeover of like

1:06:36you've got to clean everything twice

1:06:37with special fluid like prove that it's

1:06:40all work.

1:06:40>> I had to throw out everything all my

1:06:42possessions. Lived in a a hotel for

1:06:44ages. Um but yeah, I basically kind of

1:06:47shut down my life outside of

1:06:49>> I had two jobs. Fix myself and run the

1:06:52show

1:06:53>> and I I stopped my life outside of that.

1:06:56I didn't do anything else.

1:06:57>> Can I ask you a personal question?

1:06:58>> Sure. for someone who spends so much of

1:07:01their time and energy, you know,

1:07:04optimizing to improve the way that they

1:07:06feel. And I am one of these people. If I

1:07:08don't, if I'm unable to work out or do

1:07:11the things that I know make me feel

1:07:13good, it impacts my mental health.

1:07:16>> Did you have a period there where it was

1:07:18a bit dark?

1:07:20>> Yeah. I mean, it's it's not nice to

1:07:25spend a long time building yourself into

1:07:27the sort of person you're proud of

1:07:29>> to then have that taken away through

1:07:31what feels like no

1:07:35action of your own.

1:07:36>> Like, hang on. So you're telling me I

1:07:37worked really hard to become a thing

1:07:41that I value from something that I

1:07:44didn't so much and my hard one

1:07:47self-esteem is now being insulted

1:07:50>> and I didn't I don't even get the reward

1:07:54of being able to oh yeah at least you

1:07:56know I did four months on blow in Vegas

1:07:58like wasn't that fun like at least I got

1:08:00to like own my shortcoming. It's like

1:08:02being It's a difference between being in

1:08:04a car crash when you're the driver and

1:08:05being hit by a reckless driver. You're

1:08:07like, I didn't even I didn't even choose

1:08:09this to happen.

1:08:10>> Yeah.

1:08:10>> And um Yeah, it's it's rough, dude. It's

1:08:13really it's given me a pharmaceutical

1:08:16grade dose of humility.

1:08:18>> Like it really has.

1:08:20>> But and you know, I'd say this to

1:08:22anybody that's gone through a tough

1:08:24period with with their health. First

1:08:26off, you are still in there, but there's

1:08:28no depth of health damage that I have

1:08:33seen from stuff like this. Obviously,

1:08:35there's extremes.

1:08:37>> There's no degree of health damage from

1:08:41complex illness where somebody hasn't

1:08:43been able to once they're out of it and

1:08:44fix themselves become themselves again,

1:08:47right? Like this is this fear I lost who

1:08:49I was, like I'm not me anymore. Uh

1:08:52that's not something that at least in

1:08:55and I've been exposed to lots of people

1:08:56that have reached out to me after I

1:08:58talked about my story online.

1:09:00The people that are still in it are

1:09:01still in it. But the people that are out

1:09:02of it are like I'm I'm out. That being

1:09:05said, there is a kind of humility

1:09:08that especially men I think

1:09:13only get access to when they've been in

1:09:16a situation where they literally didn't

1:09:19know if they were going to get better. M

1:09:21that's the difference between going

1:09:22through a hard time that everyone goes

1:09:24through and really really hitting rock

1:09:27bottom because

1:09:29it imbuss you with this like inescapable

1:09:32amount of empathy if you go like I was

1:09:35in so much [ __ ]

1:09:38how can I judge this other person if

1:09:40somebody had seen me from the outside

1:09:43dude stop whining you look fine you're

1:09:45in great condition what are you talking

1:09:46you still running the party like just

1:09:48because somebody carries a weight

1:09:50>> doesn't mean it isn't heavy

1:09:52>> right like you can't see how much

1:09:54somebody is bearing inside and that has

1:09:56been as a only child selfstarter you

1:09:59know agency highly sovereign personal

1:10:01like determination person uh I there was

1:10:05I had a degree of flippency I think

1:10:07around the challenges that other people

1:10:09were facing

1:10:10>> and um it's impossible it is simply

1:10:13impossible and that's painful you know

1:10:15this is

1:10:17you walk through New York and for all

1:10:19it's an amazing city that I absolutely

1:10:20love. There's a lot of homeless people

1:10:22and I think if you fully take in

1:10:25the like human

1:10:29misfortune of that situation, you'd

1:10:32probably be crying most of your way to

1:10:33work.

1:10:33>> Yeah, I agree.

1:10:34>> Like you actually need to you wall

1:10:36yourself off against this stuff because

1:10:38there's so much exposure to like extreme

1:10:42situations and misery you god I I can't

1:10:46even operate if I try and do this thing.

1:10:48Um, and this is this has been a really

1:10:52unchosen but probably quite useful

1:10:55reminder of humility for me.

1:10:58>> I think it's easy to forget as well that

1:11:00so much of our success, failure, health,

1:11:03ill health is half chance, right? And

1:11:06that those things can happen, you know,

1:11:08we're one diagnosis away from a

1:11:10completely different life.

1:11:12>> Bingo. Yeah. And you can do everything

1:11:13right and be ill. You can do absolutely

1:11:15everything right and still be

1:11:16>> Chris. That one is that for you a good

1:11:18example of a lesson that you needed to

1:11:23be taught that you couldn't be taught

1:11:25through anything other than experience?

1:11:27>> Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

1:11:29>> I've heard you talk about that in the

1:11:30past.

1:11:30>> Untachable lessons.

1:11:31>> Unteable lessons.

1:11:33>> Yeah. Yeah. There this unique category

1:11:35of insight that we can't learn other

1:11:38than through experience.

1:11:39>> It's annoying, isn't it?

1:11:40>> It's highly annoying. What's that line?

1:11:42Uh, any idiot can learn from experience.

1:11:44I prefer to learn from the experience of

1:11:45others. Yeah,

1:11:46>> but there's this category like money

1:11:50won't make you happy. Fame won't fix

1:11:52your self worth. You don't love that

1:11:54pretty girl. She's just hot and

1:11:55difficult to get.

1:11:56>> Uh you should see your parents more. You

1:11:58won't regret working less.

1:12:00>> Lying in a hammock is never a waste of

1:12:02time. Like all of these things sound

1:12:04like basic [ __ ] cliche insights. And

1:12:06people sort of roll their eyes at how

1:12:08tright they are. But the reason that

1:12:09that's the case is that they are

1:12:12wellworn ruts in the ground from the

1:12:15millions of people that have come before

1:12:16you. We basically all think some version

1:12:18of

1:12:20I can disregard the most well-re

1:12:23repeated wisdom of the ages from

1:12:25mythology, media, literature, cinema,

1:12:30popular culture, music, and instead we

1:12:33think some version of yeah, that might

1:12:34be true for them but not for me. Yeah,

1:12:36>> I'm going to dance through this

1:12:37minefield, avoid all of the trip wires,

1:12:39and I'll make it out the other side

1:12:40fine. And then you kick one, and you're

1:12:43now part of this illustrious club of a

1:12:45few million billion other people who all

1:12:47learned the same thing.

1:12:48>> Isn't it interesting? You're like, "Oh,

1:12:50they were right as well. They had some

1:12:52of the scars."

1:12:53>> There's one of two things that are

1:12:54happening. Either it's true or every

1:12:59person that becomes rich or famous or

1:13:02gets a hot girl or spends not enough

1:13:04time in a hammock or whatever comes to

1:13:06the same realization, secretly contacts

1:13:08everyone else that's done it, gets

1:13:10inducted into this weird cartel cult and

1:13:12goes, "Let's pull the ladder up after

1:13:14everybody else. Let's pull the ladder up

1:13:16and actually try and prove to them that

1:13:19money is the thing that will make you

1:13:21happy, that fame will fix your self

1:13:23worth, that that crazy girl is the one

1:13:25that's you should stick. Like that's not

1:13:28there is not enough coordination on

1:13:30planet Earth to be able to do that.

1:13:32>> And it's not it's just that people

1:13:33arrive there and they realize external

1:13:35success won't fill the internal void.

1:13:37Right? But there is there's a one thing

1:13:39I've been thinking about a lot recently

1:13:40is this idea. It's called the fading a

1:13:42effect bias. So, uh, good memories and

1:13:45bad memories fade with time, but bad me

1:13:47bad memories fade faster. And sometimes

1:13:49bad memories become funny after long

1:13:51enough.

1:13:52>> What this means is that we forget the

1:13:55pain that we went through, but we often

1:13:58remember the reward. So, somebody that

1:14:00works at a very highowered job and is

1:14:02close to burnout and leaves 12 months

1:14:05later, they're actually like, well, I

1:14:07missed the status. It wasn't that bad.

1:14:09It's the it wasn't that bad muscle. The

1:14:12same thing happens for someone that's

1:14:13got a gambling or a a drug alcohol

1:14:16addiction. They think, you know, at the

1:14:18time they remembered the visceral shame,

1:14:20the the mornings waking up feeling like

1:14:22they need to make excuses for themselves

1:14:24and then 18 months later they're like,

1:14:26you know, they relapse. And the same

1:14:28thing happens with budgeting in finance

1:14:30that someone who's dragged themselves

1:14:32out of debt by working the double shift

1:14:34and then that new car payment, it

1:14:35doesn't look so bad because they don't

1:14:37remember the pain in the same way that

1:14:40they can recall the pleasure. And the

1:14:43same thing goes for health and illness.

1:14:45Like people

1:14:47Basically progress destroys the receipts

1:14:51that were why the progress was needed in

1:14:54the first place. It gets rid of the pain

1:14:57that motivated you to begin that

1:15:00particular path.

1:15:01>> And this is how someone stops taking the

1:15:03medicine or gets off their diet or you

1:15:06decides that they're not going to stick

1:15:08to their workout regime or whatever it

1:15:10is. And this isn't to say that one or 10

1:15:14or [ __ ] 100 days of not hitting your

1:15:17thing is going to be the end of you.

1:15:18>> Yeah.

1:15:19>> But we're always paying into a ledger.

1:15:21Like there's no such thing as not

1:15:23drilling a habit. Even inaction is a

1:15:25habit. Like there's no impartial

1:15:27decision. Not making a decision is still

1:15:29a decision. You're drilling the I don't

1:15:31make a decision muscle.

1:15:33>> So okay, what are you going to pay into?

1:15:34And you don't need to do it every single

1:15:36day. You don't need to castigate

1:15:38yourself, prostrate yourself on the the

1:15:40altar of of progress and development and

1:15:43optimization every single day, but

1:15:45especially if you've ripped yourself out

1:15:46of a bad situation, it is kind of good

1:15:48to revisit that pain every so often to

1:15:50go,

1:15:51>> I do not want to go back there.

1:15:54>> You know, for me, I I'm if I want to

1:15:55move into a new place, it's going to be

1:15:57so arduous for me to do the level of

1:15:58testing I need to make sure it's not

1:16:00mold. Yeah, speak to you. Uh but now

1:16:03that I'm your friend, it's much easier.

1:16:06If I forget just how bad it was when I

1:16:09was at peak mold and I looked down at my

1:16:11shoes and couldn't remember them or I

1:16:12forgot my friend's name while I was

1:16:13looking at him. Like I that's the

1:16:16motivation. That's why I did it. So I I

1:16:18I should stick to that. So yeah, fading

1:16:20affect bias explains why people who were

1:16:23motivated to do a thing in the past have

1:16:24forgotten the reason that they were

1:16:25motivated to do it now in the future.

1:16:28>> We could do a whole episode on that. I

1:16:29love it. I'm not going to I'm not going

1:16:30to unpack that.

1:16:31>> It's one of my favorite new insights. I

1:16:33one one comment I will will add though

1:16:35actually is that I think something that

1:16:37we are

1:16:39>> missing almost entirely in this space is

1:16:42self-compassion

1:16:43>> you know where you know we go through

1:16:45these cyclical periods of adhering to

1:16:49whatever protocol we we're doing in the

1:16:51moment and then we fail and then we beat

1:16:53ourselves up that we fail and then we're

1:16:54like well that didn't work I'm not going

1:16:56to do it again but the people who seem

1:16:58to succeed in the long term are the ones

1:17:01that dust themselves off,

1:17:03>> give it another go, fail again, do it

1:17:05again, and just continue on that

1:17:07cyclical nature until they find

1:17:09something that fits and works.

1:17:11>> I I love that idea about compassion. I

1:17:13think it's so good. Um, what's really

1:17:15really cool and very difficult, but a

1:17:18lot of the people that feel like they're

1:17:19always the uh negative parent inside of

1:17:22their own mind. That's a a lovely little

1:17:24exercise that you can do. Try to have

1:17:27compassion for the thing that you did

1:17:28and try to have compassion for the part

1:17:30of you that's judging you as well.

1:17:32>> One of the things you realize on the

1:17:34judging you as well bit is that the

1:17:36judge is really trying to help.

1:17:38>> The reason you're judging yourself is

1:17:40you want to do something good for you.

1:17:42>> You know it's important.

1:17:43>> You know, it makes me think, you know,

1:17:44those Roombas, the little robot vacuum

1:17:46cleaners. I envision my own sort of

1:17:50bastard in a voice. Uh, a little bit

1:17:52like a overzealous but quite crap Roomba

1:17:56and he like gets stuck underneath the

1:17:58chair and he's cleaning a corner that's

1:17:59being cleaned all the like so much and

1:18:01he's going around like trying to whisk

1:18:03things up and he doesn't need to and he

1:18:04needs to recharge. I'm like he really

1:18:06just wants to do it well. Like he really

1:18:09just wants me to be good and and healthy

1:18:13and happy and and respected and liked by

1:18:16people and like [ __ ] man like just come

1:18:18here. Like I appreciate you. Now is not

1:18:20the time for you.

1:18:21>> I'm at dinner with my friends

1:18:24>> but I really appreciate you being there.

1:18:26Like thank you for being there.

1:18:29>> Just not now. All right. And I think

1:18:31that degree of compassion for the thing

1:18:33you did and compassion for the judging

1:18:35is you can get like three, four, five

1:18:38degrees of separation of compassion if

1:18:39you need to.

1:18:40>> Um,

1:18:41>> but that's a nice place to start. And if

1:18:43you do feel like, god, I've got this

1:18:45like overoptimization guilt and now I

1:18:47have shame about my guilt and now I have

1:18:49anxiety about my shame about my guilt.

1:18:51This infinite regress of you judging

1:18:53yourself. Okay, you can just say, well,

1:18:55why is it there? what's there because I

1:18:57really like I want to look out for

1:18:59myself and I felt powerless as a kid or

1:19:01people didn't seem to care about me so I

1:19:03wanted to be really impressive or I was

1:19:06ill in the past I'm worried that it's

1:19:07going to happen again or I saw my

1:19:09parents not take care of their health

1:19:10and I saw what it did to them and I'm I

1:19:12think that fear is a good solution for

1:19:13that. It's like all of those things are

1:19:15noble. Like straight up noble reasons.

1:19:18Noble reasons to do it. Like thank you

1:19:20for being there. Thank you for looking

1:19:21out for me.

1:19:23Let me give you a hug. Not now. I don't

1:19:26I don't I don't quite need you now. And

1:19:27I think that level of self-compassion is

1:19:29is much more accessible to people than

1:19:30they might think.

1:19:33>> Can can we touch on the price of

1:19:37success? Mhm.

1:19:38>> And the reason I say that,

1:19:42there's two questions I have here. One

1:19:44was, how long did it take you to realize

1:19:47that money wouldn't buy you happiness?

1:19:49>> Mhm.

1:19:50>> And the second one is

1:19:53specifically about the lonely chapter

1:19:56that you talk about.

1:19:57>> Mhm. All right. Yeah. Uh, the money

1:19:59doesn't buy you happiness thing. I think

1:20:00for me it was closer to probably success

1:20:03or like a claim won't buy you happiness.

1:20:05Money isn't my affection. Um I I was not

1:20:10from money. Never really had it. Don't

1:20:13entirely know what

1:20:13>> So you knew that early then?

1:20:15>> I just didn't know what to do with it.

1:20:16It wasn't materialism isn't my like

1:20:19>> drug of choice. But respect by people

1:20:21that I respect. Like that feels much

1:20:24more compelling to me. Uh and yeah.

1:20:27Yeah. Yeah. Degree of status and renown

1:20:30and and recognition and stuff. And um

1:20:33how long did it take? I think the the

1:20:36question that I asked after a while was

1:20:38like, "All right, if not now, then

1:20:40when?" Like, if it's not after you've

1:20:44been on all of the podcasts that you've

1:20:46wanted to and you've

1:20:50not because you forced them into it, but

1:20:51because they saw something, maybe you

1:20:54forgazed them, but like you they saw

1:20:55something in you that was like they

1:20:57really seemed to like you actually. And

1:20:59there's a big enough sample size to

1:21:00suggest that some of them at least are

1:21:02telling the truth.

1:21:03>> Like if not now, if if you're still

1:21:05looking for external validation, where's

1:21:07it end?

1:21:08>> Yeah. Like you've already achieved the

1:21:09goals you said would make you happy.

1:21:11You've already become friends with the

1:21:12people you said would give you selforth.

1:21:14You've already, you know, d it's just

1:21:16all the way. It's just this never ending

1:21:18thing. And also the pursuit is good,

1:21:20right? It's enjoyable. So that's like

1:21:21the that's the

1:21:22>> the first part of that. Um

1:21:25>> but it took a good while. the the dose

1:21:27was not zero like you know I I had to

1:21:29move to another country upend my entire

1:21:31life at 34 um go on a bunch of like huge

1:21:36podcasts in a desperate attempt to be

1:21:38like okay can I hold it together in this

1:21:40situation can I stand on stage at the

1:21:42event in Apollo in London in front of

1:21:44three and a half thousand people and not

1:21:45[ __ ] myself with just a mic in front of

1:21:46me for protection like can I do that I

1:21:49can okay well if not that oh is it the

1:21:51O2

1:21:52>> because if it's then it's going to be

1:21:54Wembley then it's going to be you know

1:21:55what It's whatever like it is what it

1:21:57is. Um the lonely chapter is this idea

1:22:00that

1:22:01>> I saw among me and a lot of my friends

1:22:03from the UK that was when you become so

1:22:06developed that you don't resonate with

1:22:08your old set of friends but you're not

1:22:10yet sufficiently developed that you've

1:22:12built your new set of friends. Martha

1:22:13Beck calls it the empty elevator.

1:22:15>> She's talking about you moving between

1:22:17floors and there's no one else in it. So

1:22:19this this lonely chapter idea really

1:22:20resonated with people online. I think it

1:22:23resonates with a particular kind of

1:22:26highly self-determined personal

1:22:28development, self-growththerer who

1:22:32wants to be integrated socially but

1:22:34maybe grew up in the sort of place where

1:22:35there aren't a ton of role models like

1:22:37the person they wanted to be like. And

1:22:39that meant that they kind of had to

1:22:40dismiss or or throw away push back

1:22:43against the uh direction of travel of

1:22:49most of the people around them. and they

1:22:51felt like they had to kind of go into a

1:22:53headwind or or kind of exit the jetream

1:22:55entirely to make a change in their life.

1:22:58They want to go sober, but all of their

1:22:59friends go to the pub on a weekend. And

1:23:01now that they're not drinking, they're

1:23:02like, "Oh, what are you doing? What are

1:23:03you doing that for?"

1:23:05>> Like, "Oh, you're not drinking again,

1:23:06are we? We'll see how long this one

1:23:07lasts."

1:23:08>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And alcohol is a

1:23:10big one of these because it's such a

1:23:12social cohesion thing. but cleaning up

1:23:14your diet, uh making a change with your

1:23:17with your mindset, saying, "I'm not

1:23:18going to speak badly of other people

1:23:20behind their back anymore." But that's

1:23:22how you and all of your family bonded.

1:23:24That was what a dinner table was. That

1:23:26your mom and dad would talk about the

1:23:27Joneses next door. Yeah, exactly. I I

1:23:30don't I don't want to talk like that

1:23:31anymore. Oh, you think you're too good

1:23:33for us?

1:23:33>> Or just you're not a part of us anymore.

1:23:36So, this is why people retreat and they

1:23:38do the introversion thing or the

1:23:39isolation thing to do the improvement

1:23:41thing. And that's noble in many ways,

1:23:44but then you need to do the

1:23:46reintegration thing and that becomes

1:23:48really hard because you're now someone

1:23:49new and you're in congruent. So what you

1:23:53think and who you are and what you want

1:23:55to do, you're you don't have the uh

1:23:58mastery that you used to at least in the

1:24:00past when you were an idiot and you

1:24:01didn't know what you were doing with

1:24:02your life and your friends were all

1:24:03people you didn't want to be around, but

1:24:05you didn't know that you didn't want to

1:24:06be around them and you didn't know that

1:24:07the habits that you were doing weren't

1:24:09ones that were good for you. You didn't

1:24:10know that you cared about improving your

1:24:12life or changing yourself in this way or

1:24:13losing weight, whatever it is. Like you

1:24:15were in congruence. It was shitty

1:24:18congruence, but like it was congruent.

1:24:20And now you you've got all of this

1:24:22self-doubt

1:24:23>> inside of you, which is what tarnishes

1:24:26this lonely chapter because you don't

1:24:28even have the confirmation, the promise

1:24:30of any glory on the other side of it.

1:24:32Doing all of these things, trying all of

1:24:34this stuff, you're getting it wrong.

1:24:35It's the hardest period it's ever going

1:24:37to be. trying to rip this thing like

1:24:38cold bar deadlifting this rocket ship

1:24:40off the floor trying to get to escape

1:24:42velocity and you have no idea if it's

1:24:45going to work like this is supposed to

1:24:46be my rocky cut scene it's three and a

1:24:48half minutes in the movie but it's been

1:24:49four years for me what the [ __ ] is going

1:24:51on

1:24:52>> and that

1:24:54>> sense of I don't know if I'm doing it

1:24:56right I'm tempted to go back to the old

1:24:58habits

1:24:59>> modes of recognition

1:25:02support from my friends like it's also

1:25:04typically the easiest solution Uh, and I

1:25:07don't even know. And then you get there,

1:25:09and this is the most ruthless thing.

1:25:12If you're a person that grows a lot and

1:25:14makes changes throughout your life, it's

1:25:16likely that you'll go through the lonely

1:25:17chapter. But if you make a lot of

1:25:19changes, you might go through it more

1:25:20than once.

1:25:21>> Yeah.

1:25:21>> And when you've arrived and you're like,

1:25:23"Oh, I thought I found my people and now

1:25:26you're telling me I have to do it again.

1:25:28>> I have to do it again."

1:25:30>> So, how do the people that are, you

1:25:32know, going through multiple versions of

1:25:34that or any version of that ensure that

1:25:37they don't just become lonely.

1:25:39>> It is there is definitely a degree of

1:25:41like who do you think you are

1:25:44>> even internally. Who do I think I am?

1:25:47Well, I think I'm better than these. I'm

1:25:50not saying that any of these changes

1:25:52make you a better or worse or more

1:25:54worthy, more valuable person than

1:25:57someone else. It's just about are you

1:26:00following what you think you're supposed

1:26:01to do with your life? Like what? And I

1:26:03think for a lot of people as well, like

1:26:05what's the alternative?

1:26:07>> Yeah. Yeah.

1:26:08>> You know, if you don't do this, then

1:26:09what?

1:26:10>> Yeah. Uh you need to push against

1:26:12something.

1:26:13>> The sort of people that listen to

1:26:14podcasts like yours and mine,

1:26:17>> they've got problemsolving brains. They

1:26:18sort of they're always turning a Rubik's

1:26:20cube in their head.

1:26:21>> They're trying to fix something or solve

1:26:23a problem. It's kind of fascinating.

1:26:24It's really enjoyable.

1:26:26But the thing is problem solving brains

1:26:28don't switch off when they don't have

1:26:31good problems to solve. They just start

1:26:33solving shitty problems. And this is how

1:26:36people become obsessed with politics or

1:26:37porn or that X.

1:26:39>> And it's like, hey, if you've got a

1:26:40problem solving brain, if you're coma,

1:26:43right? You're not going to switch that

1:26:45[ __ ] thing off. At least for me, comi

1:26:47is a a genetic variant. It's like the

1:26:49classic worrier overachiever. Um, it's a

1:26:52dopamine catakolamine baseline thing in

1:26:54the brain. Um there's many other reasons

1:26:56why I'm a worrier as well, but uh that's

1:27:00>> blame it on the jeans.

1:27:01>> Yeah, it is. I blame it on that's the

1:27:03easiest way for me to go. It's got

1:27:04nothing to do with

1:27:04>> Yeah.

1:27:05>> Uh like that's that's for me it's

1:27:08literally in every cell in my entire

1:27:11body for me to behave in that kind of a

1:27:14way.

1:27:15>> Okay, let's just give me good problems

1:27:17to solve.

1:27:18>> Point me in the right direction.

1:27:20>> Yeah, I'm g I've got this thing, right?

1:27:22like you've got let's say that you're

1:27:23the sort of person that's got tons of

1:27:25energy. So, okay, direct the energy

1:27:28towards something because it's going to

1:27:30go. So, okay, I I really really love

1:27:34meeting people.

1:27:35>> Cool. How can you use that in a way that

1:27:38you think is really like pro-social and

1:27:40is in line with your value as opposed to

1:27:42like I'm going to start a [ __ ] gang?

1:27:44Yeah.

1:27:44>> Like cuz you're going to meet people.

1:27:46Wouldn't that be great? Like some of

1:27:47them will have guns pointed at you, but

1:27:48like you're going to meet them. So yeah,

1:27:50the the people that are going through

1:27:51the lonely chapter, it's it's difficult.

1:27:53And the reason that it's difficult is

1:27:55why it's worthy. There isn't a single

1:27:57person I know of that's gone from a

1:27:59place they want to be, gone to a place

1:28:02they want to be, from one that they're

1:28:03not happy with without having to go

1:28:04through this. Because the likelihood of

1:28:06you being around a big enough cohort of

1:28:07people who are in the place that you

1:28:09want to, going to the place you want to,

1:28:11growing at the pace that you are, is

1:28:13basically zero.

1:28:15>> It's so rare. Oh, they're go and you're

1:28:18going to know them and they're going to

1:28:19be available and they're gonna want

1:28:20they're going to like you and be your

1:28:21age range or whatever, have your

1:28:23availability, speak your language. It's

1:28:25so rare. Okay, so I'm going to have to

1:28:28put my head down and at some point in

1:28:30the not too distant future, I'm going to

1:28:31get to poke it back up and I'm going to

1:28:32be this newly transformed individual.

1:28:35Again, just know in the same way the

1:28:37unteable lessons thing, you are in

1:28:39incredibly good company even if it feels

1:28:41like you're on your own.

1:28:43>> Incredibly good company. There are

1:28:45millions and millions of people around

1:28:46the planet going through their own

1:28:47version of a lonely chapter trying to

1:28:50outstrip the environment, the the local

1:28:53cultural norms that they grew up in

1:28:55where people are born, live and die

1:28:57within the same radius, but that's not

1:28:59what they feel is right for them. Or

1:29:01these people that have a particular

1:29:02worldview or religious belief or

1:29:04cultural perspective or whatever. Like

1:29:06all of these people

1:29:09like they're not going to go with you.

1:29:11So, do you want to stay or do you want

1:29:12to keep pushing through? And it's I love

1:29:15this idea of mundane successes and

1:29:17boring victories. So it's like you know

1:29:19we think that we sort of arrive on stage

1:29:22having just completed something that's

1:29:24grand to fanfare and accolade

1:29:27>> but a lot of the time it's much more

1:29:29private than that. It's so much more

1:29:31about like [ __ ] like I lost 10 pounds.

1:29:35>> I lost 10 pounds and no one supported me

1:29:38for celebrating that picture. No one.

1:29:40It's like it's so small it almost feels

1:29:42like

1:29:44>> uh dimminionative or or like shameful to

1:29:47celebrate it

1:29:48>> like I I did 30 days without smoking

1:29:51>> and to you that was that was the deal

1:29:54like yes and and yes that's the pebble

1:29:56at the top of the avalanche that's like

1:29:58oh I can do things

1:29:59>> [ __ ] I can do things

1:30:01>> I'm going to fix that relationship with

1:30:03my mom

1:30:04>> like she doesn't think I don't we

1:30:05haven't spoken for 18 months and I'm

1:30:07going to fix that relationship with my

1:30:08mom and then you do And it's like who is

1:30:10congratulating you for fixing the

1:30:13relationship or beating your

1:30:14materialism? Like something like really

1:30:16that's typically shameful and seems like

1:30:18a a luxury problem. It's like oh I shop

1:30:20too much. Like when I when I have spare

1:30:22money I shop too much and like that's

1:30:24that's your release or whatever. And you

1:30:27beat it.

1:30:28>> There's no applause.

1:30:29>> No one is going to congrat. It's so

1:30:31normal. No one can even think about

1:30:35that as like a dude there's people that

1:30:37are starving on the street or that have

1:30:39got this problem and got oh you're sorry

1:30:40you didn't go and buy yourself a new

1:30:42dress for

1:30:42>> six your problems are still your

1:30:43problems though right like that's

1:30:45>> yeah you know that's

1:30:47>> it's just I love that idea of of boring

1:30:49victories mundane successes and I think

1:30:51that we should all

1:30:52>> we should lower the threshold for what

1:30:54constitutes something celebrationw

1:30:56worthy uh like internally and be like I

1:31:00[ __ ] did it

1:31:01>> like me and Luke got up morning and we

1:31:02went and I wanted to cycle Central Park

1:31:05is one of my favorite things to do when

1:31:06I'm in New York. Got up, nabbed an ebike

1:31:09and did, you know, 10 miles or whatever

1:31:12from the bottom of Manhattan up through

1:31:13Central Park and back down

1:31:15>> on an ebike though.

1:31:16>> On an ebike. That's true. But still,

1:31:18give me give me a break. I had four

1:31:19hours sleep yesterday. I was on a plane

1:31:21from New York. I was like such a lovely

1:31:24morning, but when I woke up, it felt

1:31:25like dragging a dead body out of a lake.

1:31:27I'm like, "All right, h my god." And I

1:31:30could have texted him and said, "Let's