Full transcript
0:01[applause]
0:04I want to start at the very beginning.
0:06You learned a lot about song structure
0:09and it started at a very early age.
0:12Nashville. Who was it that influenced
0:14you? How did that happen? Maybe a little
0:16history.
0:17>> I was about 10 when I started
0:19obsessively
0:21um thinking about and planning how it
0:25would be possible for me to try to make
0:26music for the rest of my life. And so
0:28and so I would do research and um you
0:32know I I had heard that Faith Hill got
0:34discovered at the Bluebird Cafe. I
0:35started learning about the Bluebird
0:37Cafe. Um made it like a personal life
0:40goal to get to perform there. And in the
0:42process of this I started picking up
0:44instruments and started writing my own
0:45songs just kind of based on the
0:48structures and kind of architecture of
0:50the songs that I loved the most and
0:52figuring maybe if I write enough of
0:54these I I might get decent at it. Yeah.
0:57And so with those feelings and putting
0:59it in the music, were you ever conscious
1:00of, oh, I've got to make it fit this
1:02structure or were you more just putting
1:04out the feelings in your music?
1:07>> I think when it comes to structure, it's
1:09sort of like
1:11when you learn sort of basic rules about
1:14something, it can it can really serve
1:16more as a framework. And um you know we
1:20we try to not be too formulaic with what
1:23we're doing because we're ultimately
1:25trying to express express human truth.
1:28Um but ultimately
1:31even no structure is a type of structure
1:34like anarchy is a type of society.
1:37>> Taking the traditional structure and
1:40flipping it and doing different things
1:41and breaking rules was something you've
1:43done quite a bit of that actually
1:44started on your first album. So amazing.
1:47Then as a teenager you started writing
1:49some really advanced stuff. You know Tim
1:51McGra and that song you introduced not
1:54only an artist but you were a writer
1:56with a great instinct for storytelling.
1:59And where did that come from?
2:01>> I think storytelling was why music felt
2:05important to me. So in being drawn to
2:08that aspect of music um you know I never
2:12turned to music to forget my human
2:15experience.
2:17um I turned to music to remember it. And
2:19so in songwriting there's always I I I
2:23find myself drawn to consequences,
2:26stakes, um and the passage of time so we
2:29can see those decisions through. You
2:32know, I love an epilogue in a book. I'm
2:34always trying to see what happened at
2:36the end of the story. And often times in
2:38a song, you'd love to stay in one
2:40moment, but especially early on in my
2:42songw writing, I'd love to just be like,
2:44"And this is how it ended."
2:46>> Jump around. Yeah.
2:48>> They got married. [laughter]
2:50>> Shocker. Shocker. Well, you did a bit of
2:53that in the Tim McGrath song where you
2:54wrote something that was ending, but it
2:56hadn't ended, but it was going to end.
2:57And that's definitely a diff different
3:00type of song structure. that song when I
3:02look back on it
3:04um
3:06it kind of establishes a a pattern of um
3:09writing in detail. Um that's something
3:13that people bring up to me a lot about
3:15my work is is that I write in detail,
3:18but I do think it's important to um
3:22determine that the details have to have
3:24a significance to the story at hand. And
3:27in that song, like there's a song that
3:29or there's a line that says just a boy
3:32in a Chevy truck that has a tendency of
3:34getting stuck on back roads at night.
3:37And if you look at that at face value,
3:39you're like, "Oh, that truck broke down
3:40a lot." But if you look into it, the
3:42double meaning is these are two
3:43teenagers who used to like park and kiss
3:46and tell their parents that the truck
3:49broke down.
3:50>> Ah,
3:51>> so
3:51>> now we know.
3:53>> Yeah.
3:54During this period you were growing, you
3:57were c perfecting your craft and you
4:00were following your instincts. What is
4:02it about this period or what is it that
4:04you did in that time that you think is
4:06unique or maybe a superpower for you?
4:10>> Wow. Um,
4:12I think that at that point in time,
4:17uh, I was a 16-year-old putting out an
4:21album in country music that was
4:25all about my life as as a kid in high
4:28school. And you know, back 20 years ago,
4:32people really thought very hard about
4:35demographics and about, you know, the
4:38the way you got music out into the world
4:39was country radio. And I had so many
4:42people say to me on the label side of
4:43things like, you know, the country music
4:46demo is a 35-year-old female. How are
4:48they going to relate to you writing
4:50songs about
4:52your life in 10th grade?
4:56[laughter]
4:58It's a fair question. Um, if I were to
5:01look back and say, "Whoa, that's crazy.
5:02This is why this all worked," it was
5:04because I didn't listen to the people
5:06who said that I didn't have um a valid
5:10perspective on life because I didn't fit
5:12into a certain demographic that they had
5:13studied because of the analytics of a
5:15certain genre and how people experience
5:17music. I think that um music is so great
5:21because you actually don't know what's
5:24going to strike a chord with people.
5:25We're dealing in emotional truths that
5:29either resonate or don't.
5:32>> And that's what I was going to say to
5:33me. It felt like your instincts are one
5:35of your superpowers. You have many, but
5:37you trusted your instincts both in your
5:39strategy, but also in your songwriting
5:41and what you put into your music. And is
5:43it sometimes
5:45difficult to trust your instincts when
5:48you're sharing your music with the
5:50public and you have to close that out
5:52and write from within or how do you
5:54approach that?
5:55>> I realized that like I'm making music
5:57because I'm playing for the fans. I'm
6:01I'm putting this out for people who care
6:03about it and who look to music as a way
6:07to cope with their life in the way that
6:08I did. And I um I think that if you can
6:13actually go through all those
6:14checkpoints and realize that putting out
6:17music you've made that you love so much
6:19is not the path to universal validation,
6:23if you're still doing it, then you love
6:25it for the right reasons.
6:27>> That's serious. [applause]
6:33>> I don't know if there's been another
6:34songwriter that's had to take that into
6:37consideration as much as you have. the
6:38the public perception, how they're
6:40receiving it, what they're interpret how
6:41they're interpreting it.
6:42>> Yeah. Like anything you say, they're
6:43like, "Oh, easy for you to say."
6:45>> Right. [laughter]
6:48>> But if you're sitting in the studio, how
6:50does that not block your creativity? How
6:53does that not slow down your process
6:54having to think about how it's going to
6:56be interpreted?
6:57>> I don't know. Sometimes it fuels it. M
7:00>> like some sometimes
7:02um sometimes when people are mocking me,
7:06it's really fun to mock them back.
7:09[laughter]
7:11Sometimes I like to just use words that
7:13they have to look up in order to talk
7:15about. [laughter]
7:19>> But I go through several processes and
7:21coping mechanisms that I've gone through
7:23over the years. And one of them is
7:24saying, "You chose this. You chose this
7:26every day. you could have opted out of
7:28this any day before it got unmanageably
7:32big.
7:33And I decided not to because I love it
7:35that much. And that's just where it
7:37begins and where it ends. And everything
7:38that comes with this ultimately is worth
7:41it as long as I get to still make music.
7:44>> That's special. That's incredible.
7:46[applause]
7:47Really
7:49good. Okay, moving on a little bit. Your
7:52album Red felt different. Felt like
7:54you're trying some different things. you
7:56were pushing the boundaries of yourself
7:58as a songwriter, right? And I think 8
8:001989 then took you into some kind of pop
8:03direction, very deliberate pop. Uh, did
8:06your process in writing those songs
8:08change from where you had come?
8:11>> Yes. I mean, I think um I've always been
8:14very fascinated and and challenged by
8:16the idea of never making a lateral move
8:20creatively. Um, and it helped that, you
8:24know, being somebody who started this
8:25when I was 16 and then continuing to put
8:29out albums,
8:31my life was changing so quickly that if
8:34you continue to write about your life
8:36and and write from these new challenges
8:38and adventures, like the sonic landscape
8:41of that and the soundtrack of that can
8:43change with you. So, it's like with with
8:46my albums, I would I would take my
8:48dedication to, you know, being a
8:51confessional songwriter and my and my
8:54belief that that's important and that um
8:58that although the details of my life may
9:00be different from other people's, it's
9:02it's the significance of those details
9:06that bonds us um in our own like shared
9:10human experience. you take that with
9:13you. And with Red especially, that album
9:17was one where I had just come off of
9:21writing, like my album before that was
9:23called Speak Now, and it was an album
9:25that I wrote completely solo.
9:28Um, and on that album, I really learned
9:33how to take a feeling I was feeling and
9:35then craft that on my own into a sound
9:39and kind of world build the music around
9:43my feeling for it.
9:45So what you had were songs that like you
9:49know the song Enchanted is about you
9:53know falling in love and that sort of
9:55glittery twinkly fairy lights feeling
9:58and that's exactly how the song sounds.
10:01There's a song called Never Grow Up that
10:03is a song to a little kid who's asleep
10:05in a crib and it sounds exactly like a
10:07lullabi. There's a song called Mean
10:10which was about criticism and at that
10:13time one of the criticisms I was facing
10:15was like she's not country enough and so
10:17I made it like like I was like put just
10:20as much banjo on this as we can possibly
10:22[laughter]
10:23put on.
10:26So when when I had learned that of how
10:28to match my feelings to um like yeah and
10:33to like really influence what I was
10:35writing and how I was kind of
10:38influencing the production of it to
10:40sound exactly the same. It really helped
10:42later on when I would be able to write
10:45backwards from that. If somebody would
10:47say like if somebody would send me a
10:48track, I'd listen to the first five
10:50seconds of the track and be like, "Oh my
10:53god, this is about a girl who goes home
10:54to her hometown on on holiday break and
10:57it's cold and she she falls in love with
10:59her her old high school flame again, but
11:01she has to go back to the big city, but
11:03she's fallen in love with him over the
11:05course of two days." Like, what's she
11:06going to do, you know?
11:09>> That is awesome right there. That's
11:11awesome. [laughter]
11:13Yeah, but Red was, to your point, Red
11:16was where I decided I'm going to try to
11:19find myself by exploring all the edges
11:23of all the different producers I could
11:26work with. Everyone from, you know, Dan
11:28Wilson to Jack Knife Lee to Max Martin
11:32to Nathan Chapman to like I was really
11:37to Jeff Basker. Like I was like, I want
11:39to work with everybody I like. everybody
11:40whose music I like, I want to see what
11:42they're like in the studio. And that
11:43album was very um like it was it was
11:47very much like changing channels um back
11:51when we used to do that. [laughter]
11:55Yeah. So it was like it it but it really
11:57was when I look back on that album it
11:59was that was what made it exciting was
12:02the variation of it and and then I
12:05arrived at 1989 which I look at as a
12:07very sonically cohesive piece. Were
12:10there some of the rules that you learned
12:12in country that you had to break or what
12:13were some of the challenges? Because I
12:15know a lot of our our members and people
12:17in the wing write in different genres,
12:19but there's not been many people that
12:21have been able to transition at such a
12:22high level country writer to a extremely
12:24high level pop writer as well. What are
12:26those challenges like?
12:28>> Thank you. I think the main change would
12:33be um as a lyricist just sort of the
12:36vernacular over the years that I would
12:38use because when it comes to writing
12:42just sort of different shades of my
12:44music like you can say the same thing
12:47many different ways like you can say I'm
12:51into you by saying your mightest touch
12:54on the Chevy door November flush and
12:56your flannel cure.
12:58Or you can say, "You got that James Dean
13:01daydream look in your eye.
13:04>> They mean exactly the same thing.
13:06Everything that you touch glows. You are
13:08the most important thing in my world and
13:11I just saw you for the first time and I
13:13can't believe it and I don't know what
13:15to do with these feelings." But you can
13:16just choose to say them different ways.
13:18And I think um I think that the way that
13:23I've chosen to kind of express myself as
13:25a lyricist has changed over the years.
13:28And there are times when like those
13:30contradictions will come up where fans
13:32will be like, I can't believe the same
13:33person who wrote this wrote this because
13:36one will be very simplistic and silly
13:39and one will be very like detailed and
13:42and deep and like we're doing tons of
13:45allegory and we're just like in a whole
13:47other world of atmospheric, you know,
13:50uh, speech. But
13:52I think that that human contradiction is
13:55fun. I think that it's fun to make
13:57playful songs. I think it's fun to make
14:00songs that are um desolate and lonely
14:03and um just be draggled lyrically as
14:07well. And that it's that human
14:09contradiction that that um I find
14:12interesting.
14:13>> Well, it's also very hard to do, by the
14:15way, to be able to do both. So, you've
14:18you've mastered it. You also talk a lot
14:20about how much you love little phonetic
14:23things. you call it the alliteration,
14:25the internal rhyme, consonant sounds, uh
14:28where the phrase sits. How do you
14:30prioritize those things? And how do you
14:32decide, do I want to make it sound good
14:34or do I want to make it mean something?
14:36>> Well, I think that ultimately we're
14:38trying to do both. And um
14:43when I talk about writing, I try to um
14:46explain it so it sounds like I think
14:48about it a lot more than I do when I'm
14:51doing it.
14:53um you know like when when you um get
14:57visited by the idea fairy um
15:02and you trust where that's going to take
15:04you based on your thousands of hours of
15:07doing this um that that you can enter
15:10sort of a flow state and then your taste
15:13and what you like kind of comes to the
15:15for forefront. I like alliterations so
15:18much that they happen without me meaning
15:20for them to happen. now. Um, and I like
15:23a I like bouncy syncupation and I I have
15:26these certain things that I just like
15:28and I don't even try to do them anymore.
15:30I'd have to try not to do them.
15:34>> Yeah. So, um, that's the fun of it.
15:37Obviously, when you finish your first
15:38pass of something, I really am not
15:41someone who stops a a song and and says
15:43like, "Let's put that away and revisit
15:46it later or like it exchanges parts
15:50out." Like, I know a lot of people do
15:52that. I can't um I have to see it
15:54through. But afterward, I'll go back
15:57over and just be like, "Hey, could this
15:59line be punched up a bit?" Mhm.
16:01>> And that's where sometimes I'll add
16:04alliterations where they don't exist,
16:06but they usually already exist.
16:07>> And when you're doing that, whether it's
16:09in the original writing session or
16:11looking back, are you just trying
16:13different lines, trying different words,
16:14seeing how they feel, how they flow?
16:18>> Uh, it the cool thing is that it happens
16:20differently every time. Like there could
16:22be just a a line that I thought of three
16:27[snorts] months ago, wrote down in my
16:29notes, and all of a sudden, now that I'm
16:31playing these chords on piano, all of a
16:33sudden I know what that line needs to
16:35be. And so we're expanding outward from
16:38that. But first, I had to figure out
16:39where is that line? Is that line the
16:41second
16:42>> line of the second verse? Is that the
16:45hook? Is that
16:47>> is that the first thing we're hearing?
16:48like
16:49>> and that's where, you know, we're always
16:53constantly putting together puzzles as
16:56songwriters. Um, but we're also like
16:58creating all the pieces of the puzzle
17:00first. So, it really depends on if you
17:03get like a centerpiece or like a corner.
17:06Um, and really just as your history as a
17:10puzzle uh put her together will
17:13[laughter]
17:14hopefully inform you where that goes.
17:16But it's really that's the magic of it
17:18and and the misery of it as well.
17:21>> So looking at how you produce records
17:23and you touched on it. What are some of
17:24the things that you like to do to
17:26complement your songs? How are you
17:27building production around your lyrics
17:29and your storytelling to make sure it's
17:31creating the right mood and the right
17:32vibe? You talked about the twinkies and
17:34is that something you work with
17:36producers and say, "No, I want it to
17:37feel more like this." I know you produce
17:38a lot of it yourself as well. So talk
17:40about that process if you don't mind.
17:42Um, you know, it it can either be
17:45compelling to make a song sound exactly
17:48how it feels, um, or to flip it, which
17:52the people that really taught me the
17:54most about that are, um, Max Martin and
17:57Shellback. So, I think maybe the best
18:01example I have of this is that I wrote
18:02this really sad piano ballad called I
18:06Knew You Were Trouble.
18:08>> And I want to hear that. was really
18:10excited to bring it in and I played them
18:12this really really sad ballad and I was
18:15like I think just no drums and we're and
18:18they're like what if it's dubstep
18:20[laughter]
18:21[cheering]
18:23>> and what did you say
18:26like
18:26>> like oh no
18:28>> I don't know guys
18:30let's give it a run I don't know like
18:33you know I I also like have a lot of
18:36>> I don't know I
18:37>> I can't imagine them saying that to you
18:39you sat and played them the song and
18:40they're like dubstep.
18:42>> Oh yeah. Like what if it's electric
18:44guitar and dubstep? Like we're not
18:46putting a piano in this. Um but but it
18:50ended up being the best thing for it.
18:52And I think that as a collaborator, my
18:54favorite people to be in the room with
18:56are Yes. And people.
18:58>> So why not try it if they heard it and
19:02they thought dubstep.
19:06And I came to them specifically because
19:08I didn't want to be making lateral moves
19:10creatively. Why wouldn't we go down that
19:13path? Like why wouldn't we? And I I
19:16really think that enthusiasm in the
19:19studio um it can really make or break
19:22what you end up creating.
19:26>> Yes. And people
19:27>> Yes. Don't be the person that comes to
19:29the show. Oh, [applause]
19:32>> I mean that's a it's a great lesson for
19:34all of all of us as songwriters to
19:36approach the creative process with that
19:38spirit with the Yes. And it's so
19:40important, right?
19:42>> Yeah. [snorts]
19:43>> All right. Next little phase, the
19:46reputation album. You were writing, I
19:49guess it's a big phase. You were writing
19:51an environment where a lot of people,
19:53the public in general, believed they
19:55they knew the story. They thought they
19:56knew the story. Um, how did you you
20:00change what you wrote and how did that
20:02public's perception make you adjust?
20:05>> It was a time in my life when um for the
20:08very first time, not the last, people
20:10had really actively tried to
20:12misunderstand me just in general and to
20:15misunderstand what I was trying to say
20:17and to purposely misinterpret it. And it
20:19felt very stifling as as a person, as a
20:23human being, but ultimately as a writer,
20:26um it gave me this really when I look
20:30back on it, this really sort of gnarled
20:32like um bite when I would write my
20:34lyrics because I figured like, okay,
20:38this is when I learned like when people
20:40are in like a hate frenzy
20:43about a public figure or really anyone
20:47like it could be like you know your
20:49daughter in her middle school class.
20:50Like when people decide we're all going
20:52to stand around someone and point and
20:55mock them, you can't respond with
20:58outward sincerity. Like any attempts you
21:01make to explain yourself earnestly or
21:03sincerely will just be mocked even
21:06worse. And so it was an interesting
21:08challenge as a writer to say what can
21:11you possibly say when everything you say
21:14is being returned to you in this sort of
21:16like distorted like like they just um
21:21sort of uh overreact
21:24rather than react to anything that you
21:25say or do any position you take. And so
21:29I decided to put out a song called Look
21:31What You Made Me Do as the first single
21:33where I as a dead corpse um emerge from
21:37a grave um and then proceed to deliver
21:42this very like tongue and cheek
21:46sort of um mischievous take on what it's
21:50like to feel cornered in that way. But
21:54the the fun part of that album is that
21:56it had a lot of sides to it. Like if you
21:58looked deeper into that album, it's an
21:59album about try feeling so upset about
22:03this mass shaming that you felt like you
22:06were going through that. You find this
22:07little cave and you crawl in there and
22:10you try to find like a tiny bit of
22:11warmth and that warmth sustains you for
22:14the entire time that you feel so
22:17massively misunderstood by people who
22:19don't know you. So, that was a really
22:21fun challenge of that album and I'm very
22:23proud of it when I look back on it and
22:25um I just am am I think the things that
22:28I look back on now is like when I've
22:30gone through something that was like
22:31sort of an attempt to like drive me
22:33insane. Um when you when you don't allow
22:37that to happen and you use art and music
22:40as a way to like barrel roll out of
22:42that. Um those are the moments I'm the
22:44most proud of.
22:45>> It's great great [applause] thing.
22:47Great. Great stuff.
22:51So then you have reputation and lover
22:54and I I would say that's darkness and
22:56light, defensiveness, openness
22:59back and forth, right? Is that just
23:02where you were in your life or was that
23:03done intentionally? You said, "Okay,
23:04I've done this. Now I want to do this."
23:06Or are you just writing exactly what
23:08you're feeling in the moment?
23:10>> It's really It's really that um you
23:12know, I'm I'm I'm not a big like mood
23:16board artist. I'm really much more of a
23:18mood artist. I always start there. I
23:22always start by how my life feels to me
23:25and really the aesthetics of the album
23:27are the last thing that I decide. Um,
23:32you know, some little details like that
23:34come to me along the way, but um it's
23:39it's fun to have these glimpses of what
23:42my life felt like that are so accurate
23:45to that. And when I look back on
23:48my discoraphy or whatever, I I I see
23:52exactly what I was going through at
23:53those points in my life and it feels to
23:56me that feels special. I know
23:58everybody's different. That could feel
23:59like really strange and weird and and um
24:02like just open heart surgery to some
24:04people, but for me it feels like very
24:07sacred. And and I look back now on um
24:10songs that I wrote about just like just
24:13like gut-wrenching heartbreak. And I
24:15look back and I'm like that was a really
24:17good lesson I learned. That song is
24:19about a really good lesson I learned. So
24:21it changes over time, but it still is is
24:23very reflective of the time I was going
24:25through.
24:26>> And what's great is those times are
24:28resonating with your fans, your
24:29listeners, and they're going through
24:30that with you at the same time. And you
24:32have an incredible ability to convey
24:34that feeling and give people comfort and
24:36understanding there's other people going
24:37through it at the same time. Right.
24:39>> Yeah. And I think that's that's really a
24:41unifying connector that drew probably
24:44everyone in this room to making music.
24:47Um, and a time that I felt that the most
24:49was when I made an album called Folklore
24:53in the pandemic. And that that album is
24:56really
24:58really all about loneliness. if you, you
25:01know, kind of delve into certain lyrics
25:03on songs like like Peace or Hoax or
25:06Exile. Um, it's really about feeling so
25:10completely alone, which weirdly everyone
25:13on the globe was feeling um to some
25:16extent and then getting to getting to
25:20put out that album and have us all have
25:23something that we could kind of say
25:24like, "Oh yeah, I felt that way too."
25:26Like that was I think the most intense
25:28feeling of unification I ever felt.
25:31>> It seemed on that folklore project you
25:33were writing almost from a third
25:35perspective or writing in character. How
25:37was that different for you?
25:39>> Oh, it was extremely different for me.
25:42Um and sort of a like a pressure release
25:46valve.
25:47>> Okay.
25:47>> Um it was it was an escape into my
25:51imagination. It was a It was all of a
25:55sudden I was walking on a a cliffside
25:57and looking at the ocean instead of just
25:59being at home. And and it was it it was
26:03a lot of things all at once. But um with
26:07folklore I was oftentimes creating the
26:09character and creating different
26:11characters who were interacting with
26:12each other and that was really fun. I I
26:15just got to write in character for Toy
26:18Story 5 which was such a blast.
26:21>> Yes. cheer for that.
26:24>> Toy Story 5. That's big. Not a lot of
26:26people get a chance to write those
26:27songs,
26:28>> espec Yeah, especially for a character
26:30that I've loved for years and years and
26:32years. This character Jesse, who I've
26:34just always watched those movies
26:36specifically to see her and um you know,
26:41I I relate to the way she reacts to
26:44certain situations. I re I react to how
26:46deeply her heart was broken and how
26:49deeply she feels, but how she protects
26:50the people she loves. And she's like I I
26:53think, you know, it's really a lot more
26:57fun to write from a character when you
27:00really understand their motivations
27:01because you relate to them.
27:03>> So that's coming from inside. But you
27:04you just said something that I was going
27:06to dig into the a confessional
27:08songwriter. You said you're a
27:10confessional songwriter. Obviously, when
27:12you're doing character writing, maybe
27:13not so much, but as a confessional
27:15songwriter, what does that mean to you?
27:17And and I'm not sure if you've all heard
27:19that term a lot, but that's really
27:21interesting.
27:22>> Thank you. Um, I think that when I say
27:25the term confessional songwriter, um,
27:28it, you know, I think it's important to
27:31specify that not all, um, not all
27:36shocking revelations you make about
27:38yourself are um, deep.
27:43[laughter]
27:47Like just saying something dramatic,
27:51shocking,
27:53and wild doesn't make it something
27:56that's going to help people, make
28:00resonate with people, be a a important
28:04story that that that sits in people's
28:07minds, hearts, and souls. We have to be
28:10purposeful. You can't just like scream
28:13something crazy and be like, I'm a
28:15confessional songwriter
28:19[laughter]
28:19just for the same exact reason why
28:21details should not be strictly
28:23decorative.
28:25>> Like, let's not be haphazard with these
28:28things. Let's let's make them um let's
28:31make them count. There's a song on my
28:33album Fearless, um, which is the second
28:36album I put out, and it's all written
28:39from the perspective of a child, um,
28:43singing about their mother, but you
28:45never hear the word mom or mother or
28:48mommy or anything like that. Like, it's
28:50you you you know, because the narrator
28:53is saying, "It's getting cold. I've got
28:56my big coat on. I hear your laugh and
28:58look up, smiling at you." I run and run
29:01past the pumpkin patch, through the
29:04tractor rides. Look now, the sky is
29:06gold. I hug your legs and fall asleep on
29:08the way home. And those details serve
29:11the purpose of telling us exactly who
29:13our narrator is. And
29:16>> I'm so mad. I'm never going to be a good
29:18songwriter.
29:20[laughter]
29:21I'm never going to write that.
29:24>> God dang it. A lot of writers don't need
29:28to dig back into the songs they've
29:31written with such depth as you have. Uh
29:34maybe talk a little bit about doing
29:36Taylor's versions, what that meant, and
29:38how did that affect you as a songwriter?
29:40Did you look at those songs, say, "Oh, I
29:41wish I could tweak this or maybe I'll
29:43change that."
29:44It's interesting going into that
29:47process,
29:48um, I re-recorded all of my,
29:52you know, all of my music that I had,
29:55um, that I had recorded on a former
29:57label.
29:58>> We know,
29:58>> and [laughter]
30:00not many people know I've been really
30:02quiet about it. I just hide it. I'm
30:06>> secret.
30:07>> Haven't been vocal about it at all. Um,
30:10so it it was an interesting thing
30:12because at first it's like the you know
30:14it's like when the dog actually did eat
30:16your homework and you're like now I have
30:20to redo it all and then I have to go in
30:22to the teacher and be like the dog ate
30:24my homework and like the the public and
30:27the media since it hadn't really been
30:29done before in that way and I guess on
30:31like such a big scale and so loudly and
30:33obnoxiously
30:35um the public kind of like did a a
30:38little bit side eye the way that a
30:40teacher would if you did say the dog had
30:42eaten your homework. Um, and so that was
30:45an interesting place to start from and I
30:47had to sort of get myself from the place
30:49of being like everyone says this isn't
30:51going to work and everyone's saying that
30:54like nobody's going to want to hear my
30:56new take on the same work. But actually
30:59I I got to a place where it felt like
31:03it felt like defiant reclamation of what
31:05was always mine to begin with. I was
31:07like, "Oh, actually, maybe I could go
31:09back and sing these exact same notes,
31:11you know, be faithful to the work that
31:14I'm very proud of and not be changing
31:16notes or like doing crazy riffs or
31:18anything, but maybe I could like improve
31:21the sonic quality of of this music." And
31:24and that's how I feel about it now when
31:26I listen to the Taylor's versions. Even
31:28now that I've gotten all my music, I own
31:30everything I've ever made, which is
31:33[applause]
31:35>> Congrats.
31:41This is not an official question. I'm
31:43just curious for myself. How did you
31:45just decide to call them Taylor's
31:46versions? Were you sitting at the house
31:48one day, I'm going to call these Taylor
31:49versions?
31:50>> Literally.
31:52>> Yeah. Like sometimes sometimes it's just
31:54the the it's just hiding in plain sight,
31:57you know?
31:57>> That's great. Um, but yeah, like when I
32:00would go back some I had these songs
32:02that were songs that I'd left on the
32:04cutting room floor for one reason or
32:06another. And sometimes those songs
32:08resonated more with me when I when I
32:11re-recorded them. There's a song that I
32:14I had written when I was 22 called
32:16Nothing New. And um it ended up being a
32:20a duet with Phoebe Brides, who is a
32:22friend of mine. Um, and that song is
32:27about feeling like you're aging out of
32:30um, the music industry. I wrote it when
32:33I was 22
32:35and I was like, I'm washed up and boring
32:39and everyone's over me and it's sad. Um,
32:45and so I kind of get why I didn't put it
32:48on red because that's like I do feel
32:50like that's kind of a passing thought
32:52when you're 22. Like that's a sad night
32:54with a bottle of wine. Um, but at when I
32:59was like 30 and I was re-recording it, I
33:01was like, "Oh, no. This hits. This
33:03hits." [laughter]
33:05>> Love it. The song All Too Well has now
33:08been an album track. It's been a
33:1110-minute version. It's been a new
33:13recording. It's been a short film.
33:15>> It's kind of been all over. Yeah, it's
33:17awesome.
33:18>> What does that say about that song or a
33:20great song?
33:21>> Oh, that's Thank you for saying that.
33:23Um, I think the most interesting thing
33:26about the journey of the song All Too
33:29Well, is that it was a song that was
33:32never a single on the album Red. And
33:37it was always a song that I just
33:39personally was so proud of. I was just
33:41like, man, I hope the fans gravitate
33:44towards that. And then they did. And I
33:47went through the whole album cycle of
33:48Red. It was never a single. And then
33:51when we were headed into Grammys,
33:53actually, the fans just were like,
33:56"Please play All Too Well. Please play
33:58All Too Well in the Grammys." And it
34:01just felt like the right thing. And so I
34:04played this song on the Grammys and it's
34:07always had sort of this like it's always
34:08been sort of like powered by fans caring
34:11about this song. And so you know all the
34:15iterations of it really speak to the
34:18fact that you know
34:22when they love something that
34:24passionately I'm going to listen to
34:26that. Um and that's that's been such an
34:29interesting story of a few different
34:31songs in my career. Um, the song Cruel
34:34Summer was never a single on the Lover
34:36album until the fans were so vocal about
34:40how they wanted to hear it on the eras
34:42tour
34:44years later, three plus years later, I
34:47was putting together the tour and the
34:48fans were like, "All we want to hear is
34:50Cruel Summer." So, I put it as the first
34:51song, the first full song on that um in
34:54that set list. that propelled it to have
34:57this weird viral success that then made
35:00the label say like, "Hey, would you want
35:02to put out Cruel Summer as our single?"
35:04And I was like, "You can do that. It's
35:06from a three-year-old album." And it
35:09turns out you can. [laughter]
35:11So, it's been really delightful to see
35:13that. And that is
35:15lovely.
35:17[applause]
35:20So, sitting next to one of the all-time
35:23greatest songwriters, I have to ask you
35:25some like very specific, detailed
35:26questions about your process because I
35:28think we all want to hear some of these
35:30answers for you. Does it start usually?
35:33I know it's different every time, but is
35:34it lyric first? Is it melody? You're in
35:36the shower? Are you at a on a piano or
35:38on a guitar? And it starts with music
35:40first. How does how does your song
35:42process begin? I think if you limit
35:44yourself to one of those ways, um,
35:46you're really cutting off a lot of
35:48[snorts] opportunity. Um, and I think
35:51that I'm very welcoming of any idea,
35:56however it lands. Um,
36:00it could be that, you know, I I don't
36:03write a song every day, like but I will
36:06have a a cool twist of a common phrase
36:10almost every day or
36:12>> and you'd write it down somewhere.
36:13>> Yeah. So, I've got like a notes app
36:15that's crazy. It's just like scroll
36:16scroll scroll scroll scroll scroll. Like
36:18you'd scroll forever. And that really
36:20comes in handy because when I am in a
36:23session or when I when I do like lock on
36:26to that flow state of writing a song, I
36:30can scroll through and immediately be
36:32like this fits. This is perfect. Oh my
36:35god, this is what this is about.
36:36>> And so like I don't think we need to be
36:38like purists about when these ideas come
36:42to us and and having to like chase down
36:45that idea because it just came to you
36:46like I have to get out of bed and write
36:48this right now. If you have to, then go
36:50do it. But if if you can like save an
36:53idea fragment that's that's a lyric in
36:56one space so that when you're in your
36:58sessions, you can be like
37:00>> access.
37:01>> Yeah, you can access it. And and um it's
37:04either that or like if if I have a
37:05melody
37:07whether it has lyric attached to it or
37:09not, I'll just like no matter what grab
37:12my phone no matter what embarrassing
37:14social situation I'm in because you
37:17think you will remember it. You will
37:19not.
37:19>> You won't.
37:20>> And we've all been there where it's like
37:22you're drifting off to sleep. You're
37:23like that is so catchy.
37:26>> Yeah.
37:26>> That I'm going to remember it
37:29>> and I'm so tired. gone.
37:32>> Don't listen to those voices saying
37:35you're tired. You need to record it
37:36right now. It does not matter if like it
37:40just it doesn't matter like if somebody
37:42thinks that that's weird that you're
37:43that you're just like,
37:51you know, [laughter]
37:53>> that's what like a lot of them sound
37:54like.
37:55>> And then you wake up and the next
37:56morning you're like, whoa, what is that?
37:58>> No, most of the time you're like, that
37:59was awful. But every once in a while
38:01like you you know there's something
38:03there.
38:04>> So just wrapping up Taylor when you
38:08place yourself now next to the writer of
38:10Tim McGra what are some of the things
38:13that are the same and what are some of
38:14the things that have evolved and changed
38:16into this new writer?
38:18>> That's a really uh beautiful and
38:21eloquent question.
38:23If I look back at the song Timbergraw,
38:27there are actually sort of hints at at
38:30everything that was going to happen in
38:32the next 20 years. Like um like
38:36character character work like when it
38:38says he said the way my blue eyes shined
38:41put those Georgia stars to shame that
38:43night. I had never been to Georgia.
38:48[laughter]
38:49That was not real. I had never that had
38:52not happened. But it's like as you know
38:55you kind of are working around like sort
38:57of character and like what what feels
39:00like what this character would have said
39:01and what paints a picture that kind of
39:04informs this story that we just locked
39:07into because that first line described
39:09so much for us. Also sort of the idea of
39:14a song as a message.
39:16um the song that jumps forward in time
39:21and even in jumping forward in time it's
39:23saying I hope you reflect back in time
39:26the sort of time machine
39:28>> song and um I also just think that
39:34uh
39:36I've I've loved and then I think this
39:39can happen in in as you as you grow up I
39:43love my country roots more and more um
39:48the further along this path I get and I
39:50I I want to honor them more and more and
39:53I feel more more tied to them, more
39:55loyal to them, the people that that that
39:57shaped who I am as a as an artist and as
40:00a writer. That that all happened in
40:01Nashville.
40:02>> Love it. [applause] Love it.
40:06Room full of songwriters and composers.
40:09When they leave today, what do you hope
40:11they the takeaway is from our
40:14conversation? Oh. Uh,
40:17I hope that um I hope that
40:22you will show up to work even when the
40:24idea fairy doesn't.
40:27>> I hope that you will not be the person
40:29who shoots down everyone's ideas in the
40:32room but has not brought any of your
40:34own. [laughter]
40:37I I hope that you will remember the yes
40:40and of the improv session that is your
40:42recording sessions and that is life as
40:44well. And I hope you remember that in
40:47the music industry as um wild and
40:51everchanging as it is, enthusiasm can
40:54protect you from anything. I would know
40:59[applause]
41:04>> [applause]
41:09>> So this is uh this is the piano that I
41:11brought with me all around the world on
41:13the Arrows tour. Um,
41:16and uh, one of my favorite things um,
41:22that I would do on the Arrows [music]
41:23Tour and something that really became
41:25something the fans um, paid a lot of
41:28attention to and would kind of um, like
41:31make a lot of guesses about every night
41:32was I had this section called the
41:34acoustic section. I would do different
41:37songs every night, one on guitar and one
41:39on piano. And I started to really have a
41:43blast with um creating med medleys
41:46towards towards the middle end part of
41:49the tour. And I'd really just think
41:52about um
41:57different songs I [music] could mash up
41:58with other songs um that would be
42:01surprising and kind of a surprise and
42:03delight moment for fans. And um
42:07and and a way [music] that I would kind
42:08of pick the songs is I' I' I'd find some
42:11sort of through line, whether that was
42:13like, you know, rhythmically or these
42:15are these are all about a similar
42:17emotion. And I I I prepared [music] one
42:20for you today that um if I was still on
42:23the ERS tour, I would do this one. And
42:26[music] it's um
42:28it's songs that are uh [music] connected
42:31to each other
42:33by the common theme of um being about
42:35[music] memory and reliving certain
42:39detailed memories of your life and the
42:41significance of those memories.
42:45[music]
42:50[music]
42:59>> [music]
43:02>> I [singing] knew you through the days of
43:05the blades of the grass in summer pair
43:08[singing] of shoes [music]
43:09with a free fall of being younger. I
43:13memorize
43:15the sound of your bare footsteps
43:19running a while. [singing]
43:21It's [music] been a long time.
43:24Life has ways of leaving those days
43:26[singing] behind.
43:29Seeing you tonight. [music]
43:32I remembered I [singing] loved you. Came
43:34back when I met I [music] saw you
43:37standing there in the light of the
43:39window. Parid same smile. But it's been
43:42a while. But I knew it. I knew you.
43:47I knew [singing and music] it. and new
43:48year.
43:55[music]
44:01Salt air
44:03[music] and the rust on your [singing]
44:05door. I never needed anything more.
44:12Whispers [singing]
44:15of are you sure?
44:18Never [singing] have I ever been before.
44:22But I can see is lost in the memory.
44:25August slipped away into a moment in
44:28time. [singing]
44:29It was never mine. [music]
44:32And I can't see you twisted in [singing]
44:35bed. Sheets get sipped away like a
44:38bottle of wine cuz [music] you were
44:40never [singing] mind.
44:44Back when we were still changing for the
44:46better. Wanting was enough [music]
44:50for me. It was enough
44:54to live for [singing] the hope of it
44:55all. Cancel plans just in case you call
44:59and say meet me behind [music] the mall.
45:01So much for summer love. [singing]
45:03Seeing us cuz you weren't mine to lose.
45:07In our rivers I cried [music] when we
45:10said goodbye
45:13wondering if I'd made it
45:15[singing and music] up in my mind. Would
45:18you look me in the [music] eye?
45:30[music]
45:35I walked [music and singing] through the
45:36door with you.
45:38It was cold, but something [singing]
45:41about it felt like [music] home somehow.
45:45And I left my scarf [singing] there at
45:49your sister's [music] house. And you
45:51still got it in your drawer even now.
45:56And I [music] know it's [singing] long
45:58gone.
45:59The magic's not here no more. And I
46:02might be okay, [singing] but I'm not
46:06fine at all.
46:11[music]
46:13And still we are [singing] again on the
46:16little town street. [music]
46:18You almost ran the red cuz you were
46:21[singing] looking over at me when in my
46:23head I was there. I remember [music]
46:26it all too well. [music]
46:34Here we are again when I [singing] loved
46:37you so you kept me like a secret, but I
46:42[singing] kept you like an [music] oath.
46:44Secret sacred prayer. And we'd swear to
46:47remember [singing] it all too well.
46:55Remember when I pulled up and said, "Get
46:57in [music and singing] the car." And
46:58then you cancelled my plans just in case
46:59you call. Back when I was living for the
47:02hope of it all. [singing] I remember it.
47:05Remember when I pulled up and [music]
47:07said, "Get in the car." Then cancel my
47:09plans just in case you call. Back when I
47:11was living for the hope [music] of it
47:13all. [singing]
47:14I knew it. And I knew I loved you.
47:17[music] Came back when I mattered. I saw
47:19you standing there in the light
47:21[singing] of a window wearing [music]
47:22that same smile. And it's been a while.
47:26I knew it. I loved you. Came back when I
47:29met it. I saw you standing there in the
47:32light of a [singing] window wearing
47:33[music] that same smile. It's been a
47:35while,
47:37but I knew it
47:41[music]
47:41[singing] all too well.
47:48I knew it
47:52all too [music and singing]
47:54well.
47:58And I remember it
48:02[music] through the days [singing] of
48:02the blades of the grass and summer.
48:09I remember [music] it.
48:12You were the freef fall of being
48:14[singing]
48:15younger.
48:17>> [music]
48:20>> I knew it.
48:22I knew it.
48:27All [singing] too [music]
48:30well.
48:34[music]
48:36[applause]
48:41>> [cheering]
48:43[applause]
48:47>> Oh, thanks guys. [applause]
48:51>> [cheering]