Full transcript
0:005% of the world can even code and much
0:03fewer can build a great product like
0:05Mati and his co-founder right so I
0:08decided let's build something for the
0:1099% and not this productivity boost for
0:13developers and that's going to be a
0:14completely new type of interface so here
0:17we don't give any timelines we do
0:19research initiatives we want to plan you
0:21need to stay nimble that like the moment
0:23it comes out you have 24 hours to start
0:25integrating that into your product
0:26that's like the most important time to
0:28really to really be ahead
0:36>> [music]
0:47>> Okay, this is a real treat. Um, I
0:49interviewed two friends of mine, Matty
0:52from 11 Labs and Anton from Lovable. two
0:55terrific CEOs and companies that are
0:58absolutely ripping and they're both
1:00doing it from ye old Europe. So, we're
1:03going to get into it on the Europe
1:04thing, but there's some topics that are
1:06just terrific. These two are kind of
1:08blossoming before our eyes. They're
1:10right in the the heart of hyperrowth.
1:13And we get to see like how they think
1:14about co-founders, how they're thinking
1:16about delegation and letting go, how
1:19they're thinking about building their
1:20exec teams, managing all the chaos
1:23coming in at them. When you're in
1:24hyperrowth, there's just a lot of chaos
1:26and really just pushing to keep the
1:28speed up. It's a really good episode. I
1:30hope you enjoy it and I'll be back at
1:32the end with my takes. Okay, you two are
1:36in your early 30s, similar ages. Uh
1:40you've got some very good experience
1:42under your belt. Um a lot of founders
1:45I'm meeting and a lot of founders
1:47getting funded are right in school,
1:48right out of school, 21, 22. What would
1:51your companies be like if you had
1:53started them when you were 21 or 22?
1:55I'll let you go.
1:56>> Well, I think I think it would be have
1:58have been hard. Uh I think it still
2:01would have the pleasure of working with
2:02my co-founder. I know him since high
2:04school. Okay.
2:05>> Uh so we always were best friends. We
2:06did everything together.
2:08>> This is Mati from 11 Labs.
2:10>> Exactly. So uh so uh I'm working across
2:13voice AI research and product
2:14deployment. We are on a mission to
2:15create the voice of technology. Um so I
2:18think I still would have started without
2:19that with my co-founder which would have
2:21been the advantage. The disadvantage is
2:23I don't know how I would approach the
2:25first customers. How the world like at
2:28the time I didn't even know the world of
2:29entrepreneurship existed. So I studied
2:31mathematics. uh when you study
2:33mathematics the clear career paths you
2:35take is either finance or consulting. I
2:38chose finance. I joined Black Rockck. Um
2:40and then of only after Black Rockck I
2:42learned about Palunteer uh and decided
2:44to join them where it turned out you can
2:46actually be deployed with the customer,
2:48learn about the problems, try to
2:49understand those problems and bring them
2:50back and build a product which was like
2:52the first glimpse into how to build
2:54something from scratch. Uh but before
2:56that was still some further out of I
2:59didn't know how to approach. Um so I
3:00don't think I would be able to
3:02understand the first early dynamics of
3:04starting something in the same way.
3:06>> Okay. you're several hundred million in
3:08revenue. If you would started right out
3:09of school with your buddy,
3:12where would you be?
3:14>> Nowhere.
3:15>> You know, the other thing I I think we
3:17would have probably worked on a very
3:19different idea. I think it took
3:20>> the of course the pleasure of having the
3:23the co-ounder I know inside out. Um then
3:26over the years got experience of working
3:27at other companies which helped us
3:29understand some of the dynamics. He also
3:31at Google at Palanteer. So we understand
3:32how to build things at scale. But then
3:35the third thing which I think was the
3:36most important was was the idea. And of
3:37course through the years we looked into
3:39different projects from trying to build
3:42a crypto risk analyzer during the crypto
3:44days which was really hard uh to
3:46recommendation system. But then when we
3:48stumbled on on voice we knew that a this
3:51is a good timing where the technology is
3:53going for the shift. We can be part of
3:54that shift of that technology and then
3:56two this is a huge problem that uh that
3:58the problem that the users the world
4:00have and we can solve it. If I started
4:03something on 21 22, I just don't think
4:05we would work on the same idea and
4:07probably uh wouldn't understand the pain
4:09the same way we do now that that we
4:11approached voice.
4:12>> Got it. Anton lovable also on fire. If
4:15you were started this company right out
4:17of school, what would it be like?
4:18[snorts]
4:19>> Um I I also think it might have not been
4:22as ambitious because I mean I had never
4:24done something entrepreneurial. Um, and
4:27the biggest disadvantage being that
4:30young would have been that I wouldn't
4:32know like why to hire very senior
4:34engineers and what may like what type of
4:36great senior engineers are out there.
4:38>> Um, because like they don't want they
4:40will be very scared of working for me.
4:42Um, but I think I would have a lot of
4:44other advantages maybe even being more
4:46naive. Um, and
4:49already then I think I surrounded myself
4:51by super super smart people. So I I
4:53could have I think I could have built
4:54something uh very different with fast
4:57iteration place could have been
4:58successful.
4:59>> And I got a little bit of what you took
5:01from Palunteer. Um you had some very
5:03interesting experiences before lovable.
5:06Can you talk a little bit about them and
5:07what kind of you took from those that
5:09you're le leveraging at lovable?
5:11>> Yeah sure. So if you go way way back, we
5:13I also studied like sciences and physics
5:16specifically and when I was uh I did
5:18this long internship at CERN where uh I
5:22understood a certain particle physics
5:24and where they discovered a lot of the
5:27recent physics but but there's a lot of
5:29smart people there and I was like wait
5:31they're all working on these impossible
5:33problems without any elasticity. So, uh
5:35I'm not going to be here. I'm going to
5:37go u applying great innovation to the
5:41real world. Um and then um I was kind of
5:45inspired to start a company when I was
5:47um in university which I'm very happy
5:49about but I uh ended up um doing doing
5:53some finance actually unfortunately
5:55unfortunately [laughter]
5:57>> which was a bit too boring for me. Okay.
5:59Um but fortunately I started this um
6:02community Stockholm AI and this was
6:04around when deep learning was like
6:05taking off in 2015 16 and I I I did the
6:10foundation models of training current
6:13new like large small language models
6:15before it was cool and met great people
6:17there and one was the founder at SA to
6:20Joel who recently sold Sonnet for to
6:23workday for a billion dollars.
6:24>> Yes, congratulations.
6:25>> Yes, great job by the team there. I mean
6:27my contribution was bring in some of
6:29those smart people that went on to to
6:31grow it to what what it became. Um and I
6:33was there for three years and it was
6:35like oh AI like let's build we were you
6:38all was super young uh but uh we we
6:41learned super fast and it it became
6:43successful. Then I joined uh as a
6:45co-founder at a company that just got
6:48into YC um and that was in
6:50recommendation systems specifically for
6:52e-commerce. uh that could have been
6:54absolutely wildly successful the company
6:56it had a lot of things going for it but
6:59um after a bit of momentum loss and my
7:03co-f founder and I like uh and me being
7:07I I wanted to pivot to something more
7:09successful that that I can say than
7:10e-commerce um but I decided to do some
7:13do do the most possible ambitious thing
7:16and all my life I've been uh
7:20like approached by people who wanted to
7:23find a great engineer to help them
7:25realize their dreams or the ideas. uh
7:27the world is full of them like 0.5% of
7:30the world can even code and much fewer
7:32can build a great product like Mati and
7:35his co-founder right so um I decided
7:39let's build something for the 99% and
7:41not this productivity boost for
7:43developers and that's going to be a
7:44completely new type of interface
7:47>> where you um rim your idea of some
7:51technical AI product into existence and
7:54that's what we set out to build
7:56>> okay So um your first company you were
7:59the founding engineer.
8:00>> Yeah.
8:01>> Your next company depict you were
8:03co-founder CTO. Now you're CEO. Is it
8:06everything you ever hoped?
8:08>> Uh it's a good question. I I think it's
8:11quite uh different. And what I love
8:13about it is that I get to know myself um
8:17and like how to surround myself with the
8:20right like complimentary skill sets um
8:23and challen be challenged in all the
8:25possible ways much more than being a
8:26co-founder and CTO
8:28>> and um like I run the company on founder
8:33mode I would mostly empathize with uh
8:36but at this stage um I mean there's a a
8:39big shift in be in focusing on
8:41empowering unblocking the leaders in the
8:44company.
8:44>> Um, and I mean I I like that and it's
8:48more analytical
8:50>> is being a CEO what you thought like
8:52what surprised you about it?
8:54>> Um, you have to do so many things or I
8:57mean unless you're very uh disciplined
9:00about what what you delegate and how you
9:01delegate it. It's like there's all so
9:04many many different things thrown at you
9:06especially as you start hyperscaling.
9:09>> Yes. Um, how about for you? You're CEO,
9:12your first time CEO. What's harder than
9:15you thought? What's easier than the
9:16thought? What's different than you
9:18thought?
9:20>> Yeah, I think the the first one is
9:22definitely you want to hire people
9:23better than yourself in all those areas
9:25that that you know for the first time.
9:26In our case, things like legal or
9:28finance or um building the gotom market
9:31motion in sales, like all of these
9:33things which I've seen kind of results
9:36of that work but never have actually
9:38done the work. Yeah.
9:39>> So it was a very quick learning of like
9:41how do you do that so you actually
9:42understand it and you need to understand
9:43at least a little bit to then be able
9:45and assess the person that you want to
9:47bring in. So that was kind of the the
9:49two things that that uh they now
9:50repetitively try to do when we have a
9:52new area. I'm trying to first put myself
9:54in those shoes, understand the basics
9:56and then hire persons I know that they
9:57are doing that work. And the delegation
10:00too was uh was something that I I think
10:02I hold on for for too long like like to
10:05to do myself rather than than delegate.
10:07And then actually how to delegate was an
10:09interesting piece in itself where um I
10:13think you you do want to give a lot of a
10:15lot of the the the work to other leaders
10:17that you hire the other people that you
10:18grow um but you still want to understand
10:21the detail that's happening and then
10:22like how do you let them own it be the
10:25leaders they want to be but still remain
10:27in the details in the funer mode to to
10:29be able to jump in when needed. uh that
10:31balance of like how do you interact
10:32through that is is is is a tricky thing
10:35that uh that is still I think a
10:37continuous learning for me
10:39>> and like I found that there's kind of
10:40three types of CEOs is people who are
10:43really in all the details in in
10:45everyone's shorts all the time there are
10:48CEOs that are pretty high level and like
10:51I have an expression keep your feet in
10:52the ground your head in the head in the
10:54clouds or you're in the details and
10:56you're up high some people who stay very
10:57high and then there's what I call
10:59spelunkers people kind of go down deep
11:01in one thing for a while, then come back
11:03out and go down into another thing. Have
11:06you got one of those models? Is that is
11:09that like what are you? It sounds like
11:10you're the first.
11:12>> I do like the details. I think similar
11:14like the the uh I think to to to how
11:17Anon um mentioned that that you operate
11:20is like you do want the the fun. You
11:22want to understand the product. You want
11:23to actually work with the product all
11:24the time. So you know how to actually um
11:28uh use the product better than than than
11:30most. So I'm trying to trying to stay
11:32extremely detailed and like what it is
11:34that we are shipping, how we're shipping
11:35it, how it works behind the scenes. So
11:37that's probably the the key thing. Um I
11:40like your analogy of of uh um head in
11:43the clouds, the
11:46the feet on the ground. I think the the
11:48the thing that I'm trying and I and I
11:50think uh where where the the magic
11:52happens if you do it well is being able
11:54to zoom out and zoom zoom in extremely
11:56quickly before those context. So you're
11:58able to understand the problem, zoom
12:00into the detail, you understand the
12:01detail and then the next second you need
12:03to go to another problem which requires
12:05the same activity.
12:05>> There's a lot of context switching being
12:07a CEO.
12:07>> Exactly. And that's uh and you kind of
12:10need to be immediate in that. um um my
12:13co-founder who who is the smartest
12:14person I know and is kind of leading the
12:16research uh work in his case he needs to
12:20go extremely deep for very long time so
12:22we like have very we frequently speak
12:24about this very different way of
12:26approaching the the work where one is
12:28like all about context switching the
12:29other one is all about going as deep as
12:30possible
12:31>> and how about what are you thinking on
12:33how are you feeling about delegation is
12:35it natural just delegate all this stuff
12:36or is it like ah I want to be in the
12:38details I had a hard I had a very hard
12:40time delegating
12:42Um I think it's often the ah when I'm
12:45I'm very impatient generally and
12:49>> um like [laughter] there is some
12:51friction when I when there's many things
12:54that are feel very urgent and I know
12:56know one thing but maybe not all the
12:58other ones.
12:59>> Are you driving people crazy?
13:01>> Um no mostly no. Mostly they like me.
13:03They they feel where I'm coming from and
13:05I usually this this is coming from a
13:07good place. Um
13:08>> okay let's talk about team. You just
13:09hired a friend of mine to run sales.
13:12>> Yeah.
13:12>> Um you're building out your team. How
13:14are you thinking about building out your
13:16team, your senior team in particular?
13:18And then are you looking
13:20>> are you looking for people with high
13:21slope or high experience?
13:23>> Oh, that's a good question. I I think
13:25like at this stage um there's some
13:28there's many things we just like need to
13:31be done uh very predictably and um like
13:37because of like all the opportunities
13:38that are out there and hiring people who
13:40have done it before and are maybe
13:44wouldn't be as effective early stage
13:46because they're like set in their ways
13:48that that is very effective. It's very
13:50effective.
13:51>> Oh, wait. So you you lean towards
13:52experience not necessarily
13:54>> for the things that have to get done we
13:55know like what those things are it is
13:58effective to like what
13:59>> uh so for sales um everything that come
14:02goes under sales a lot of fun sub
14:03functions of marketing that has like all
14:05of this you're
14:06>> looking for experience there
14:07>> I'm looking for experience and then so
14:10uh at least to run them and then um one
14:13if you have capacity to also hire people
14:15people with high slopes and who are like
14:18generalists and you also find a good way
14:20to be able to move them around in the
14:21company. Um, that's something that has
14:24worked really well for us.
14:26>> Um, I I can cannot predict how it's
14:28going to work when there's more
14:30structure in the company, but I'm
14:32committed to finding a good experiment.
14:34>> Any of these highs slope generalists who
14:36you're moving around on your senior
14:38team, direct reports, senior team
14:39>> senior team or
14:41>> any of are any of your direct reports
14:43any of these
14:44>> you know high slope people moving
14:46around? um not on my like actual
14:49leadership team, but many of the ones I
14:51work with dayto-day who like feel like
14:53they're reporting directly to me on many
14:55things are more of the highest.
14:56>> Yeah.
14:57>> How about you on the team? You're
14:58building you're got a little you've got
14:59a few hundred employees. You're less
15:01than 100.
15:02>> Um
15:03>> what are you thinking about the senior
15:04team? What are you looking for? Have you
15:06had any misfires?
15:08>> In our case, so we have we have we have
15:10over 300 people, but uh inside of the
15:12company, it's effectively a lot of small
15:14teams has 30 teams of five to 10 people.
15:16And it usually is a combination of um
15:19depending on the space either few with
15:22with with with the experience with the
15:24past um work in that space and then
15:26usually infused with some of the high
15:28slope and we we like that because a you
15:31get the generalists that can adopt a lot
15:33of the new tooling and kind of do new
15:35work. Um and second we try to bring a
15:37lot the engineers across in some of
15:38those teams. So even in a traditional
15:40growth team, we have growth engineers
15:42and the ops team will have operations
15:44engineering to help automate a lot of
15:46the process. Um sometimes use lovable in
15:49the in the process to to help to help
15:51with that work and um and and that has
15:54that has helped tremendously to kind of
15:56get the experience the domain expertise
15:58while while creating the new the new
16:01process across the leadership. So then
16:03all those team roll up to each effective
16:05lead. So we have a go to market leads.
16:07Um then the engineering leads.
16:09>> How many direct reports do you have?
16:10>> I have 15 direct reports.
16:12>> That's a lot. Okay. And that crew of 15
16:16are they kind of young hungry grow up at
16:19the company high slope or are they kind
16:21of been there done that?
16:23>> Almost exactly half half. So half half
16:26have done that before. Usually are
16:27growing with the role. Of course we are
16:29growing extremely quickly. So we grew
16:30from from we started 2022 from zero to
16:33now over 200 million in revenue. So that
16:36growth has been quick for for everybody.
16:38So everybody's learning at at the same
16:40time. But half of them have seen that
16:42before and the other half are
16:45>> the uh 50/50. Like at HubSpot we were
16:48kind of the same. I was I'd look around
16:50the table about half grew up with the
16:52company very high slope and half had a
16:55lot of experience. That felt right to
16:57me. Does that feel right to you? It
16:59does. It's so it's it's in in a many
17:01ways the people that are there have
17:03grown with the company incredibly. Uh
17:06Victoria who leads our ops team has
17:08never done anything like this before,
17:10right?
17:10>> And uh also from palunteer background so
17:13also physics background so trying to
17:15like create the process as as we go
17:17across and has grown incredibly with the
17:19company and then others um kind of are
17:22still super important for the company
17:23but will stay in more of the product
17:25teams or on the IC roles in other parts.
17:28How about you on the on the you know
17:30what's your mix of kind of homegrown and
17:32been there done that you're probably
17:34just starting to hire execs I guess from
17:36the outside.
17:36>> Yeah. So I built out this this
17:39leadership team which is like seven
17:40people with my co.
17:41>> So you have seven direct reports.
17:43>> Yeah. So with without me and my coffer
17:46it's five direct reports. Yeah.
17:48>> And officially everyone else like
17:50reports into them.
17:51>> Yeah. And
17:52>> do you feel like you got that right or
17:53over time it's going to get much bigger
17:55or where you at? Like I think of Jensen
17:58Huang has 45 direct reports and
18:00>> you have a lot too now.
18:02>> No, I didn't. I had like 10. No. Uh
18:05yeah. And it's amazing to me that they
18:06got people with 45 or 50 and people with
18:09three. Um there's such a range. Anyway,
18:12it it was the five intentional or it
18:13just kind of happened.
18:14>> Uh it was intentional. Very intentional.
18:16Yeah. Uh to like add a lot more add a
18:19lot more structure. And then if you I
18:21think generally like if you say okay
18:23let's try to have a lot of structure and
18:24then it's easier to add more like
18:27chaotic things on top of that.
18:28>> Yeah.
18:29>> And see how that works.
18:30>> Okay.
18:30>> So you're hiring we we kind of work
18:32together on that head of sales search.
18:34>> How are you thinking about these senior
18:37searches? How are you deciding? You know
18:39you never run a sales or it's a it's a
18:42hard thing like
18:44>> lots of people are in your shoes like
18:45how are you making those calls?
18:48>> Yes. O with the head of sales I worked I
18:51worked closely with Jany at Excel who
18:53had done this before many times.
18:54>> Okay. Danny Hersburg from
18:57Andy. Exactly. So and um
19:00>> they coached you. they got they got gave
19:01me a lot of impact input on it and um I
19:04mean in the end it was me spending a lot
19:07of time with this candidates and them
19:08spending time with the team um and
19:11presenting how they would do things and
19:14that that felt like that gave a lot of
19:16instilled a lot of confidence
19:18>> okay for me
19:19>> so you had a bunch of help
19:21>> yeah spoke to many people
19:23>> and how on your side same thing you
19:25hadn't run a sale you haven't none of us
19:27have done what we did but you hadn't run
19:29a sales or you had to make a decision on
19:31a sales leader. You had a lot of
19:32qualified candidates. How did you go
19:34about it?
19:35>> Yeah, you it's a tricky one and
19:37especially I think for sales the sales
19:39people know how to sell themselves. They
19:40need to be able so they are so you kind
19:42of need to filter through like do they
19:44actually uh know how to sell but they
19:46are all like good at it. So uh we we are
19:49in a good setup where one of the sales
19:51people was our investor. So we've seen
19:53him actually help um us advise before he
19:57became a salesperson. So when when we
19:59started the company we started getting
20:00enterprise inbound um we realized okay
20:03we can start something very quickly and
20:05he already has spent so much time with
20:06us then it became natural okay we want
20:08to bring that person in um and then as
20:11we've hired other roles we have of
20:13course amazing investors uh across like
20:15SEOA who are on recent team who are
20:18helping us uh on that hunt so we would
20:21partner very closely with the domain
20:22experts to to to to help us through the
20:25network through the back references to
20:27make sure that they are right ones. I
20:28think the back references really helps
20:30across that beyond the spending time
20:31with the with the team which which I
20:33think is crucial. Um and then the other
20:36part which which I haven't realized
20:37until later is the for sales
20:39specifically is that you are hiring of
20:41course a great individual for creating
20:43the sales uh playbook helping you sell
20:45into the enterprises but then ultimately
20:48the person you hire they will set the
20:49culture for the sales team too like a
20:51lot of the people they will hire will be
20:53so similar in the approach to that work
20:56um which uh which I didn't appreciate
20:58until the after the fact I was happy
21:00that the culture was very aligned but uh
21:02but then you can See they are very much
21:04similar and we have Europe and US sales
21:07team they're slightly different okay the
21:09Europe is a lot more confident like the
21:12a little bit like a lot the the European
21:14uh versus US upbringing so a lot more
21:16confident than our Europe European
21:18counterparts that take more of like
21:19partner sales approach
21:21>> u but they have core similar values
21:23which which helps
21:24>> okay one of the things that confuses me
21:26about life today as a CEO is like from
21:30HubSpot from let's call it we went
21:33public in 2012 until I sat down 2000
21:352020. We had an annual planning cycle
21:38and the world just didn't change a whole
21:39lot every year. How the hell do you guys
21:42plan with the changes going on
21:44underneath? Like what's your cycle? How
21:46do you do it?
21:48>> So, we've done very little planning.
21:50>> Okay. Um and I think that's pretty smart
21:54because uh you can like everything is
21:56changing very rapidly on as at least for
22:00our I mean our B2B offering is like
22:03enterprises are uh huge ones are using
22:06our product to a huge extent. Um we are
22:10just like giving trying to give them uh
22:13the time they can get like as as much
22:15time as you can get um and not being
22:17like okay this is our ICP this is
22:19exactly the sales process at least. so
22:20far. Um, but there there's like tens of
22:23thousand people in a hackathon. Some
22:25many of the world's like largest
22:28healthcare companies using us and we um
22:33we will I think start taking a step back
22:35uh and being okay where are we seeing u
22:39like from much better data and analytics
22:41as well. How where are we going to
22:43focus?
22:43>> Okay, let me push back a little bit. You
22:45just had a big release that looks
22:47amazing.
22:48>> You must have planned for that. You just
22:49didn't pull that out of a hackathon last
22:51week.
22:51>> Yeah. So, on [laughter] the first side,
22:53I mean, we we we do have a launch road
22:55map and like it goes out six No, it goes
22:58out like six months and it's just that I
23:00I'm sure it's
23:02>> uh going to change.
23:03>> Okay. So, there's a there's a
23:05lightweight six-month product roadmap.
23:07Yeah.
23:07>> Okay. Got it. And it's pretty flexible
23:09like within that six months deep pivot.
23:11>> Yeah. I do now at this uh size of the
23:13company. Um we are of course going into
23:17longer time horizons sometime.
23:19>> Yeah, I think it's just hard to plan
23:21more than six months right now with all
23:22the underlying platform changes. Um I
23:26can't Yeah, it's an interesting time to
23:27be a CEO. How about over at 11 Labs like
23:29what's the cycle?
23:31>> The cycle so we do um so the teams have
23:34a pretty high flexibility in how they
23:36operate week to week. So they can kind
23:38of take different directions but on a
23:40quarterly basis we'll we'll get the
23:42teams together. They'll spend up to a
23:44day effectively outlining what are the
23:46initiatives they want to run for the
23:47next quarter and then it's even less for
23:50the team itself. Sometimes it helps
23:51formalize a lot of the ideas but it's
23:53more valuable for the teams around so
23:55they know what to expect so they can
23:56learn from that that process. and we
23:59just came back from from an offsite with
24:00the entire team uh where we where we are
24:03looking like what where we would like to
24:05be as a company in 2026 and in the next
24:08three years. Uh the thing that's
24:09probably the hardest is research. So we
24:11do also the foundational part for for
24:13voice. Yeah. Um have a lot of research
24:16teams that that that uh that crank up
24:18some of the best models out there and
24:20that's of course so hard to predict. So
24:22here we don't give any timelines. We do
24:24research initiatives we want to plan. So
24:26that's the one that goes out of the
24:28cycle. These are like
24:29>> you don't know what's going to come out.
24:30It's very different than
24:31>> you don't know. You need to stay nimble
24:33that like the moment it comes out.
24:34That's why the small teams have been
24:36helped so much as well because the
24:38moment something comes out either
24:39internally from our research team or
24:41from other teams, you know that this is
24:43like you have 24 hours to start
24:45integrating that into your product.
24:47That's like the most important time to
24:49really to really be ahead.
24:50>> Okay. Speaking of planning, I remember
24:52in the early days of HubSpot before we
24:54were CRM, we were a marketing app.
24:56[snorts] And every year I would go to
24:58the Salesforce.com conference called
25:00Dreamforce and I sit in the audience and
25:03our pitch by the way at that time was
25:05Salesforce.com is to sales as HubSpot is
25:08to marketing. And we would always think
25:10in the back of our head until
25:11Salesforce.com wants to become the
25:13Salesforce.com marketing. And so we'd
25:15sit in the audience every year hoping
25:16[snorts]
25:17they didn't announce a marketing
25:19product. And sure enough, 2012 was their
25:22that was the marketing year. They bought
25:24four marketing companies and they really
25:26went for it. We ended up pivoting and
25:28going to CRM. I would imagine you have a
25:31similar feeling when Anthropics doing a
25:33big announcement or OpenAI's having a
25:35big announcement. Even HubSpot is like
25:37we don't know is OpenAI going to be a
25:39platform company like Google was or are
25:41they going to go build vertical apps?
25:43Are you as paranoid as I was or are you
25:46not that worried? Yeah, I mean they do
25:49have a lot of distribution out of the
25:51box. Uh so that's it would hurt if
25:56>> are you or do you sit there like worried
25:58when [snorts] they're doing their
25:59announcements? Are they going to
26:00>> not really know like I have so many
26:02things to think about. Um I catch up on
26:04like on the recent announcement and I'm
26:06I'm sure they will announce something.
26:09>> I would imagine they
26:11will be inferior. a
26:13>> you've got a head start and
26:15>> but you kind of like I kind of think it
26:17would be an obvious thing for them to
26:18build.
26:18>> Yeah.
26:19>> You know something yet like there what
26:22we're building is this full platform
26:24where you serving like most of the
26:27product needs for product anti-product
26:29engineering organization and that uh
26:31takes a lot of iteration steps to get to
26:33the to the full thing and uh
26:36>> unless they're like building that out
26:37completely in the dark and then
26:39launching it I don't think there it's
26:40going to be a threat from the first
26:42launch. Okay. I'm very impressed with
26:43your lack of paranoia. Are you paran I
26:45would are anyway are you like I was
26:47paranoid nervous about what's going to
26:49happen.
26:50>> Definitely a little always nervous and
26:51watching closely I mean they have great
26:53great research teams. So so they they
26:55they we know that they will be pushing
26:57into the voice space. Yes. Um at the at
27:00the same time given like the spread of
27:02work that you just mentioned the corlary
27:05is they lack focus and we are fully
27:07focused on voice whether that's creating
27:09the research or products for creating
27:11voice agent or creating creative
27:13workflows which does take a lot of
27:15iterations to actually bring that to the
27:17user to make it the best experience that
27:19they require to solve their problems
27:21solve their integrations so I do think
27:23it's uh you know it's it's it's going to
27:26become increasingly competitive
27:27especially on the research But that's
27:29where the product platform brand the
27:32design the taste will matter a lot more.
27:34Something we speak a little bit with
27:35Anton every so often and that will be
27:38the big piece where companies going deep
27:41into that space will will win.
27:42>> Okay. Speaking of taste, one thing I
27:45really like about both of you is I think
27:47you have taste particularly in your
27:49marketing. Like you guys do some
27:51interesting stuff. You are fantastic on
27:54Twitter. [laughter] Fantastic on
27:56Twitter. You're one of my favorite
27:57follows.
27:58How much time are you spending doing it?
28:00Do you do it all yourself? Uh
28:04you're you're you're out there on stuff.
28:07Like just talk about your Twitter
28:09strategy.
28:09>> Yeah, sure.
28:10>> Um
28:11>> did you like did you tweet just before
28:12we got in here? Like what's the deal?
28:15>> No, but um I I do spend quite some time
28:18on it and it feels like oh my god, I'm
28:20doing so many there. I'm a CEO. I'm
28:22doing so many things and then I have to
28:23sit down every week and and get some of
28:25this some of the post right. Um, but I
28:28do have a team that comes to me with
28:30ideas and like every Monday we go
28:32through it's it's 15 minutes in the
28:33calendar. Okay. Usually takes more time.
28:36>> They bring you here's a tweet that would
28:37be good.
28:37>> No, they bring me ideas like okay should
28:40we do something on this and I I like
28:41drop a lot of um ideas as well in the
28:44Slack channel and uh um but this is not
28:47their full-time job either. So it's it's
28:49a bit it's it's like it's not a proper
28:52function in the company.
28:54>> It's very very effective in my opinion.
28:56like your brand is very strong. It
28:59>> is it working really well? Are you
29:01actually pressing the button when the
29:03tweak goes out or is somebody doing it
29:04for you?
29:05>> It's usually me. I I So there there's an
29:09actually a very good company called the
29:11typefully that you can draft them in and
29:13then you can like collaborate on them.
29:15Okay.
29:15>> Uh and I I usually the one who schedule
29:18them in that. Okay.
29:20>> So I do the final process.
29:21>> I would keep going and get even whackier
29:22if I were you. [laughter]
29:24>> Thank you.
29:25>> I think you're killing it.
29:27>> You guys um are busy. I remember when I
29:31was your size
29:33um I get I got asked to do so much
29:37Speak at my conference. Can you
29:39interview my daughter? Can you talk to
29:41this venture capitalist, this candidate?
29:44It's just an endless like
29:47of [snorts] asks and it's chaotic and
29:50the firm is asking you to do all that
29:52kind of stuff. How do you guys manage
29:55just like kind of tactically manage the
29:57chaos, manage your schedule, get
30:00done in the in the hurricane of of
30:04requests, inputs, chaos? Any tricks?
30:08>> A few few tricks. Few tricks for sure.
30:10The the I think the we we run a lot of
30:13the company on Slack. So the Slack is
30:15one part and of course the email is
30:16especially the external piece for email.
30:18Uh now it's a combination of two. uh my
30:21my brilliant assistant Hana is helping
30:23and the script is helping to autocl
30:25classify a lot of emails to effectively
30:27P 0 P1 P2 P 0 is
30:30>> somebody else is reading your emails and
30:31P 0
30:32>> someone else is reading and now we have
30:33a script as well to autocl classify them
30:35>> okay
30:36>> and uh and then P 0 is
30:38>> that is interesting
30:38>> it's super helpful
30:39>> okay
30:40>> same day reply on the P 0 P1 can wait
30:42through the week P2 not important I can
30:45I can I I can take out and then I have
30:47like unblock piece
30:48>> so somebody's reading your emails tells
30:50us like hey you need to respond to this
30:51is P 0
30:52>> labels so every email gets a label and
30:55then
30:55>> by a homo sapien
30:56>> by a homo sapiens and a script so now
30:59it's a combination of both so script
31:01does the first pass and then the homo
31:03sapiens does the second second pass
31:05>> fascinating
31:06>> hana who is like great at it too okay
31:08>> and um and then you know exactly okay
31:11this is I need to reply this day this is
31:13an important customer partner
31:14>> how does she know what's important like
31:17I send you an email she must be like
31:19that's It's so important. You got to
31:21respond. [laughter]
31:23How does she know what's important?
31:24>> Well, the the the first thing is
31:26sometimes there's of course new where
31:27you don't, but usually she knows me
31:29inside out. And the second thing is for
31:30a lot of the people, a lot of the
31:32clients, you Brian, you will be in my
31:34contact list, you will have a P 0
31:36inbound. So the first moment you hit me
31:38with the email, it will autocl classify
31:40that as a P 0. Um, so I know that it's
31:42at the top and uh and that I should
31:44reply on the on the same day.
31:46>> Okay. Um, so that has worked
31:47tremendously across across email. I get
31:50I think I'm I'm very good on like
31:52getting up um the Slack must be a
31:55firestorm.
31:55>> Slack is a firestorm. Slack is a
31:57firestorm. Um, so it's usually a
32:00combination. If I think it's taking more
32:02than five minutes, then I will remind
32:04myself later. So I'm big on the remind
32:06function.
32:07>> And then if it's less than five minutes,
32:09I usually try to to reply straight away.
32:11>> Yeah. Kind of inbox zero on your Slack.
32:13>> Inbox zero on the Slack.
32:14>> Okay. What about your calendar?
32:17>> Calendar is uh at least week in advance
32:21clean in terms of like what I want to do
32:23and then if there's like an urgent thing
32:25that comes up then it things get
32:26reshuffled.
32:27>> Yeah.
32:28>> Um and then as I think the biggest piece
32:31that I've done over the last six months
32:32and you mentioned the conferences, the
32:34events is planning at least a quarter
32:36ahead which uh which continents I will
32:39be in and I'm trying to never be
32:42switching the continent in a in the same
32:44month. So like I with 10 a month I'm
32:45trying to stay in one place.
32:47>> Oh, so you go to the US for a month.
32:49>> I usually try to be in the US for close
32:51to a month.
32:52>> I see.
32:52>> And that helps a lot with getting on the
32:55ground working with the team but also
32:56working with the customers. I think it's
32:58going to decrease to two weeks now given
33:00how how distributed we are. But uh but
33:03before that I used to go for like few
33:05days sometimes to us and that has that
33:09has been not not ideal. Yeah. Before
33:12>> Okay. Your calendar must be nuts. Um,
33:16what does it look like and where do you
33:18build in time to like actually think?
33:22>> It's a good question. Um,
33:26I kind of I think I think best by
33:28talking with together with someone else.
33:30>> Okay.
33:31>> Um, so it it naturally like happens. I
33:34see
33:34>> maybe late in the office or something
33:36with grabbing oneonone time.
33:38>> Um, yeah. I I think I'm like I'm still
33:41in this like firestorm and I I'm going
33:45set on innovating on what works best.
33:47Like there's a certain type of
33:50creativity that you also only get like
33:52when you're bored or like you get some
33:54downtime and uh I don't I think there's
33:57some way to program myself with the like
33:59this environment to get more of that.
34:02>> I did a Wednesday every Wednesday I work
34:04from home
34:04>> and no meeting it was no meeting
34:06Wednesday. That helped. I'm also a
34:08little introverted so I needed a little
34:10time to re charge. Are you guys
34:11introverted or extroverted?
34:13>> Are you introverted?
34:14>> Um I say that but people around me are
34:16like no no you're fake introverts.
34:18>> Yeah. [laughter]
34:19>> Yeah.
34:19>> But I I mean if I if I'm alone a full
34:21day I'm like oh god people human coming.
34:24>> I'm not like that. I'm like oh I need
34:25another alone day. Um okay interesting.
34:29>> The no meetings day helps. We I I also
34:32have no meetings day. it usually gets
34:34meetings, but they are meetings I
34:35actually want to do rather than like are
34:38um like kind of proactive for the future
34:40rather than like in the moment in this
34:42given week. So,
34:42>> one of the things that really helped me
34:44was like once a month I made a to-do
34:45list of like here's the eight things I
34:47want to get done and I would publish
34:50that on our we had a wiki at the time
34:52and so everyone in the company to see
34:54what I was working on and I would look
34:56at it every couple days and be like does
34:58my calendar match my to-do list because
35:00all the Slacks and emails are everybody
35:02else's priorities imposed on you and by
35:05putting it on there it sort of allowed
35:08me to say no. Um, it's just so much
35:12stuff and it was hard to say no. And so
35:15it gave me license to say, you know,
35:17it's not on my to-do list. I'm not going
35:18to do it. And then I got a hat with a
35:21big no on it, a no hat, and I walk
35:23around the office uh and people call me
35:25Dr. No. Because I just wanted to keep it
35:27focused on a couple things that I was
35:29trying to get done and the company was
35:30trying to get done and I would lose
35:32focus and then it' be a firestorm and
35:34then back. So I didn't nail it, but that
35:36was a small hack that helped a little.
35:39Okay, you two um are
35:42do an amazing job building amazing
35:43companies in Europe. My two favorite
35:45entrepreneurs. Um
35:48what's it like building an amazing AI
35:50company in Europe? Um
35:53and what are the pluses and minuses of
35:56building in Europe?
35:57>> I I think um the network around you is
36:02not as mature compared to especially
36:04Silicon Valley.
36:05>> Yeah. And that makes it more difficult
36:08with the distribution. Um I mean in like
36:13sophisticated investors
36:16are like just one coffee away can be
36:18valuable. Uh and then once you're
36:22staffing especially on like not the high
36:25slope generalists are distributed across
36:27the world, right? But as you're stuffing
36:29with people who have done it and seen it
36:30before, um it's trickier to find it in
36:34Europe, I would say. But
36:37>> I heard you refer to building in Europe
36:39as hard mode.
36:40>> I mean that those parts are hard mode.
36:41But at the same time, I I think
36:44>> uh I don't know, maybe we would have
36:46been more successful building from from
36:48the valley or something. I could have
36:49see that. But I think it has been very
36:52helpful for us to be like the go-to
36:55number one talent destination in
36:57Stockholm.
36:58>> Uh and that's the reason I decided no,
37:00we're going to stay here. We're going to
37:02stay here and bet on on the that there's
37:04much more available talent that doesn't
37:06jump around and like they aren't
37:08entitled and spoiled and they they're
37:12cheaper. They're they're yearning for um
37:14like a possibility to literally change
37:17the world.
37:18>> Yeah. And um there's not many companies
37:21that have done it from Europe. There has
37:23not not been a trillion dollar company
37:24from Europe. And uh being at 11 Labs or
37:27building at lovable is one of those
37:29opport very very rare opportunities
37:30here.
37:31>> I agree with that. I'm going to ask you
37:32this. You've got employees in the US and
37:34Europe.
37:36Any difference?
37:39>> Definitely differences. And similar I I
37:41I will quickly add that I think the
37:43talent in Europe can be incredible.
37:45Okay.
37:45>> You just need to you need to find you
37:47need to find that talent.
37:48>> Um
37:48>> and we're you're building in London
37:50mostly or all over?
37:51>> Uh all over, but London and Poland are
37:53our biggest hubs. And
37:55>> Poland must be terrific.
37:56>> Poland is is incredible. Like some of
37:58the best central Eastern Europe like
37:59some of
38:00>> everybody must want to work for you in
38:01Poland. It's like it's like Anton Stock.
38:02>> We are we are heavily building the brand
38:04across across Eastern Europe and and we
38:06we think those engineers are just so
38:07incredible. They are yearning for
38:09something. I think they're yearning for
38:10a company that actually wants to build
38:12something generational, something big.
38:14And there's just so few of those
38:15opportunities. At the same time, the
38:17companies of Silicon Valley frequently
38:18don't give that opportunity. So it's
38:20like perfect
38:21>> to build new stuff. They give like
38:23>> exactly
38:23>> it stuff.
38:24>> Uh and on so I think one of the
38:26differences which is on a lot of
38:29Europeans especially Eastern Europe is
38:31are very straightforward, straight to
38:32the point, very direct sometimes
38:35>> uh sometimes too direct which we
38:37actually really enjoy as a company. it
38:39helped to share a lot of ideas,
38:41criticism, feedback in a in a much
38:43better way. Um, on the other hand, what
38:46I think US is going for them is that
38:47confidence of like things are going to
38:50be amazing, are great, are very
38:51ambitious across the entirety of of of
38:54the people. And that's something that uh
38:56that we are continuously trying to
38:58instill in some of the people across
39:00across Europe.
39:00>> Okay. too. Um, and maybe the other thing
39:02that helps across Europe is that if
39:04you're building in Europe, um, you of
39:06course need to build for for the global
39:08market. You cannot build just for
39:09European market.
39:10>> But then when you do that, then you the
39:12time zone is actually perfect for
39:14catering to US to to to
39:17South America to Europe and to Asia as
39:19well, which helped in our case as well.
39:21>> And the difference between American
39:23employees and European
39:25>> it would be that I think the the main
39:26one is also beyond being direct and
39:29confident. I think the um
39:31entrepreneurship kind of aspiration is
39:34very different in US. Everybody knows
39:36value of equity. Everybody is treating
39:38that as part of like a good career. In
39:41Europe, you kind of need to convince the
39:42employees. Sometimes you need to
39:43convince the families that this is the
39:45right thing.
39:45>> Uh in Poland, we need to uh frequently
39:48explain that equity is worth something.
39:51Almost force the employees to take the
39:52equity, which which is always an
39:55interesting surprise of like how does it
39:57work? Um but now we've went through this
39:59cycle a few times. Um and the equity is
40:02worth something with the tender offers.
40:03So people started educating other people
40:05that this is actually the right choice
40:08uh which we hope will like in places
40:10like Poland and wider Europe will become
40:12more more normalized and and then
40:14something that people will will want to
40:16do across entrepreneurship.
40:17>> When I was in my late 20s I spent in
40:21early 30s seven years in Asia and I
40:24worked for this company PTC a very good
40:26company in the US.
40:28And I had to convince Japanese people
40:30and Chinese people and Korean people
40:31that this thing called equity is going
40:33to be worth a lot. And man, it was a dog
40:35fight convincing them like what this is
40:37you're just trying to pay me less money.
40:39Um I remember those days. Um and people
40:42made a lot of money on that stock.
40:45Okay. On this topic like 996 are you
40:49guys in office 996 hardcore? Like one
40:53interesting thing like my generation of
40:55CEOs, we kind of followed it. Steve Jobs
40:58was sort of on our Mount Rushmore and
41:01the current generation's it feels like
41:03it's a lot more Elon and and companies
41:05are working much more like Elon's
41:07companies. Who's your Mount Rushmore?
41:09Are you 996 like Elon Plus? Like where
41:13where are you guys at?
41:14>> Steve Jobs is great. Yeah.
41:15>> Yeah. I think it's a good one.
41:16[laughter] I mean, what I like about him
41:18is he really understands that like a
41:20team working better and better and
41:22better over time and like really
41:24obsessing and caring about what you're
41:26doing is what
41:26>> Who are you talking about?
41:27>> Steve Jobs. Yes.
41:29>> But who who if I'm Steve Jobs, who are
41:31you Elon? Who's your
41:33>> um I mean my style can be a bit Elon
41:36like this has to get done now. Like what
41:39what does it take to do this faster?
41:40What
41:40>> is it Daniel?
41:42>> No, I don't know him that well
41:43unfortunately how he operated. But uh uh
41:46so based on reading about Elon um I have
41:49a bit of that but I think you lose a lot
41:51of the like the autonomy and teams
41:54feeling ownership of doing doing it too
41:57much the Elon way. So uh I I might get
42:01back to you on with a with a more care.
42:03>> Are you 996 plus?
42:05>> Um me many people are in the company are
42:07996 plus many people in the company but
42:10um people have family as families as
42:12well. So it's just we have very very
42:15very high expectations of everyone to
42:17have to drive impact.
42:19>> Um and then if you're not working many
42:22hours you need to have clearly
42:26[laughter] clearly have impact in other
42:27ways. You think that scales like one of
42:29the problems with scale is that drive
42:32sort of waines and that you know do you
42:35think that fades and is there ideas in
42:37your head how you keep that that
42:40motivation going?
42:42>> Um
42:44I I think it's about setting very very
42:46ambitious goals every week and um
42:49>> that's one of your things every week you
42:51put out goals.
42:52>> Yeah. And then it's it's very being very
42:55clear before someone joins on what the
42:57expectations are
42:58>> and um it's about
43:02evaluating impact
43:03>> and have you lost candidates like VP
43:06candidates because like you know what
43:08yeah I love the mission I love you but I
43:12can only do 50 hours a week and I got a
43:15I've got a I've got a life I've got four
43:17kids. I I lost I think we lost some kind
43:20of like that but that's maybe good.
43:22>> Life in the big city. Okay. How how
43:25who's your Mount Rushmore?
43:28>> It's definitely closer to Steve Jobs
43:30between those two. Um uh but it's it's
43:33his he was always like so caring about
43:34the design about making it kind of
43:38hiding complexity from the user making
43:40it easy to use. Um, uh, he does he does
43:43have this obsessive piece which is maybe
43:45a slightly different to how I would try
43:47to to run it or or or work in a company.
43:50Uh, but I love what he created as as as
43:52his legacy. But there are amazing other
43:54CEOs there. You know, there's like more
43:56more pockets from different people that
43:58that that are incredible. I like Jamie
44:00Diamond and how his clarity and and his
44:03like across so many things that he runs
44:06and he I think he has like half a
44:07million people under him. He feels very
44:09calm and under control. I think this is
44:11admirable. Um, Satya, I think the way he
44:15kind of turned it around and he is like
44:17a very caring person around around uh
44:19how he runs the company. I think this
44:21this is this is another great great
44:24leader. Um,
44:26but from the 996 I think in our case,
44:29>> are you guys 996?
44:31>> Not in the office. I think everybody is
44:33online chronically and all the time. We
44:36definitely make it very explicit before
44:37you you join. It's we find it's like
44:40once in a in a lifetime change with AI
44:43across the world we can be the voice of
44:45the change the voice of the technology
44:46and everybody understands the
44:48opportunity ahead is is rare um
44:50>> and we do lose candidates across but
44:52then you filter we do frequently I mean
44:55they frequently won't I think even apply
44:57we are like very vocal in the process
44:59that that that it's it's it's a it's a
45:01lot of time commitment we never impose
45:03it or ask anyone for doing that but they
45:06do Um it's it's usually seven days a
45:10week but you are not maybe working all
45:12the seven days a week but you are online
45:14and ready to jump in especially on the
45:16weekends on any on any questions and um
45:20and I think people people enjoy working
45:23next to passionate people so you kind of
45:25like get that bar higher you run
45:28together and then when you see results
45:29it's it's also motivating
45:30>> in like the last 50 employees like your
45:33from employee 250 to 500 versus 50 to
45:36100 is Is there a difference in your
45:38mind in commitment and zeal and
45:42whatever?
45:43>> You know it's definitely some but but
45:45the current employees are also okay on
45:47it like and I think the small teams
45:49helped where you you have like you know
45:51you effectively join that
45:53>> unit of 10 people or less.
45:55>> So you are seeing that everybody's
45:57running in that unit and everybody else
45:59is running too. So you you are going
46:01after after that too. Um, of course we
46:04also have people with families, people
46:06that will have other other things and
46:07and that can work and uh and and and it
46:10does, but usually those people are are
46:12thinking about work and how to improve
46:15um at all times.
46:16>> What do you guys think European like
46:18what needs to happen in Europe to
46:20[applause] to have like a lot more of
46:23you guys?
46:25>> I think they're coming. Yeah, it truly
46:27is 100%. Okay. There there is like
46:29engineering schools now you ask them
46:31would you consider starting a startup or
46:33being in part of the funding team 80%
46:36yes
46:36>> okay
46:37>> it went up to 10x
46:40okay interesting
46:40>> and that first generation will help I
46:42think like few of the companies if we if
46:44we do do a good job get get some people
46:47to to start another set of companies I
46:49think the second thing of what's I think
46:51missing in the European ecosystem is
46:53people that have done it before have
46:54seen that scale um that and then of is
46:58have got a good outcome to then make
47:00make clear of like this is actually a
47:01really cool thing to do. Uh hopefully
47:03those people can infuse additional set
47:05of startups across across Europe.
47:07>> We started um HubSpot in Boston and it's
47:12got a lot of the same benefits Europe
47:13like so much talent MIT's there just we
47:16were a magnet for it. the the area it
47:19fell down is as we scaled and we need to
47:21hire you know a head of marketing who
47:23had seen the movie before someone who
47:25had really operated at scale so we
47:28started hiring more people in the valley
47:30um that started happen around a thousand
47:32employees um
47:33>> but it feels similar Boston feels
47:35similar to Europe in that way Boston's
47:37conservative it's kind of similar um any
47:41advice for all there's lots of young
47:43smart entrepreneurs listen to this pod
47:46uh that want to build the next levelable
47:48the next 11 labs. Any any any advice?
47:51>> First of all, I think go for it. It's
47:53it's amazing to to to build a company
47:56and you know, of course, um maybe I was
47:58in a in a lucky position where where I
48:01had savings and I could I didn't have
48:02like the the dependencies, but if you
48:04are in that similar situation, uh I
48:06think it's it's go for it. the learning
48:08experience you get uh across building a
48:11company even if it doesn't go the way
48:13what you expect I think is so much more
48:15valuable than uh than frequently joining
48:17joining other companies and being a
48:18smaller cogle in a big machine um and
48:21then I think obsess about the problem
48:23try to deeply understand what you are
48:24actually solving for talk with customers
48:26and the the simplest advice I think is
48:28the most valuable here which is actually
48:30working with the user and iterating very
48:32very deeply um and then I think it's all
48:35about the team and hiring so the people
48:36you bring across
48:38and who you build with will be will be
48:40defining for the company. So pick your
48:42co-founders carefully and well and know
48:45them ideally for a longer time before
48:47you decide to start something. And as
48:49you assemble the team, you really want
48:50the trusted individuals that
48:52>> uh that you want to go for the for the
48:54next decades together.
48:55>> Yeah.
48:57>> I think you want to learn things very
48:59very fast if you're getting started and
49:03um you want to learn a lot of things.
49:04You want to learn how to hire. Um I mean
49:07you don't have to be so good at managing
49:08but having high expectations of people
49:10and giving them clear feedback
49:12[clears throat]
49:12>> and you want to know learn how to sell.
49:15you want to sell to your customers or
49:17sell them or and market um to your the
49:21people you want to hire and if you want
49:23investors you're always selling and so
49:25you should do that all the time and fail
49:27and uh ask someone who you respect to
49:30>> give it to you hard on like how bad you
49:32are because if you're just getting
49:34started
49:34>> first
49:35>> yeah of course [laughter]
49:37>> okay
49:38>> next person and just go out there and
49:42like try to find joy probably by having
49:46a co-founder as you're talking about in
49:47the in the failings and the learnings.
49:49>> Yes.
49:49>> Yeah. That's the other thing which uh I
49:51was thinking about your earlier question
49:53what you don't expect as a CEO as well.
49:55Um you don't expect that uh that you
49:57don't have anyone to complain to
49:58effectively,
49:59>> right? [laughter]
50:00>> So so your co-founder is your like
50:02soulmate that you can speak through and
50:04then there are some sometimes amazing
50:05people in the team you can iterate
50:07through but not to the same not to the
50:09same.
50:09>> Yes, I totally totally agree with that.
50:12Um I want to congratulate you guys on
50:14all your success. I admire what you guys
50:15are doing. I sure hope you guys build
50:18trillion dollar companies in Europe.
50:20That'd be amazing. Good luck to you.
50:21Thanks for doing the pod.
50:23>> Thank you so much.
50:23>> Thank you.
50:24>> Appreciate you.
50:25>> Thank you.
50:25>> Yeah.
50:26>> Okay. Those two are terrific and it's
50:28nice to see them kind of blossoming
50:31before our eyes. What they have in
50:33common is they both had like seven or
50:35eight years of experience with like one
50:38good company in there. And I know it's
50:40fashionable to drop out of Harvard and
50:42start a company like Zuck did, but at
50:44least for me,
50:47I did two startups before HubSpot. One
50:50was very successful, went public, and
50:52got very large. Man, did I learn a lot
50:54from that. And man, are there a lot of
50:56lessons inside of HubSpot about scaling,
50:58but you do you. But I don't think it
51:00hurts a founder to be in a really good
51:02startup to learn before they start a
51:04company. They talked a lot about their
51:06co-founders
51:08and one of the things about being a CEO
51:10is you're just you're you're a
51:12umbrella. Like all the rains on you
51:15and you get an umbrella for your whole
51:16organization. It's hard. The other thing
51:19about being a CEO is like no one is
51:22coming to save you. In my startups, my
51:24boss would come and save me. Another
51:26team would come and save me. There was a
51:28lot of resources around. You're pretty
51:30alone and it's on you as a founder. The
51:33one person you can complain to is your
51:35co-founder. And so my advice to to you
51:38would be to really get to know your
51:40co-founder because it's an incredibly
51:42important relationship for you going
51:44forward. We got into mechanics of of the
51:46job and we talked about delegation and
51:49they're kind of starting to it's
51:51interesting. They're starting to
51:52delegate. They're like, "Oh, we're kind
51:55of founder mode. We're not sure how to
51:56do this." But they're starting to do it.
51:57It's impressive to see what they're
51:58doing. my experience the way that worked
52:01as HubSpot scaled. I was very founder
52:05mode in sales and in product and man the
52:08rest of the organization I was very
52:10manager mode and I drove both
52:12constituencies crazy. The the sales and
52:15product folks I was in their shorts and
52:17they always complained I was too much in
52:19the details. All the rest of them
52:21complained that they didn't respond to
52:22their emails. So that was sort of the
52:23blend for me. I wasn't all manager mode.
52:25It wasn't all founder mode and that kind
52:28of worked for me and m maybe that would
52:29work for you running your company. I
52:31like the way they were thinking about
52:32their teams. I asked all the CEOs on
52:35these uh episodes know what's their span
52:38of control and it's all over the map. I
52:41by the way I thought everyone was
52:42copying um Jason Huang and having 60
52:45direct reports. That is definitely not
52:47true. He is an N of one on that. And
52:51like Anton Helmley has five direct
52:53reports. I had 10, my tea has 15. So,
52:56it's a little bit all over the map. If I
52:59were you, I would think about that. What
53:01do you want your span of control to be?
53:03And I would have it as wide as you can
53:05tolerate. As you scale from 100 to a,000
53:07employees, all those layers in there
53:09really will slow you down. So, you want
53:10to keep it as flat as you can. The other
53:13thing I liked about that we're thinking
53:14about Teams is they were definitely
53:16starting to bring in some been there,
53:18done that people. The whole team wasn't
53:20been there, done that. The way HubSpot
53:22ended up is we had about half been there
53:25done that and half homegrown and VCs try
53:27to jam you full of been there done that.
53:29I like that balance having a little bit
53:31of both. The homegrown talent is
53:33underrated on your teams most likely. We
53:35also talked about just managing the
53:37chaos like they're growing crazy. They
53:39have so much opportunity. Um it's just a
53:42hurricane of of input coming into them.
53:45And a couple things, couple hacks I
53:48liked. Anton is really good on Twitter
53:50by the way. If you don't follow him,
53:52he's really good. I like that every
53:54Monday morning he has a 15minute meeting
53:56with a couple of his staff members and
53:57they brainstorm on tweets. So, he's not
53:59just coming up with that
54:00extemporaneously. He's thought about it
54:02a little bit and he's very good at it.
54:04Most of them, or at least I had a no
54:06meaning day where I could actually think
54:08and get some room and work on projects.
54:09I think that's a good hack. I had it on
54:11Fridays for a while. Everyone thought I
54:13was taking a long weekend. I moved it to
54:14Wednesdays. And they're going to have to
54:18get good at saying no. Like I I was
54:20working on saying no. So I made myself
54:23this hat, my no hat, and I had a no
54:25shirt, too. And I think startups are
54:28much much more likely to die of
54:30overeating and starvation. That's
54:32probably true of yours. You might need
54:34your own no hat. You know, speaking of
54:37chaos,
54:38I asked them, are they 996? And they are
54:40both 996 plus. Um, and I think that's
54:45interesting. I've asked all the CEOs
54:47I've been interviewing. and it's been 10
54:49so far and the early stage startups are
54:51all doing 996 and the bigger ones aren't
54:53and I think that's probably life in the
54:55fast lane as your employees start having
54:58families and you're hiring people with
55:00families it's just hard to get people in
55:02the office six days a week working 9 to9
55:04but I think keep it going as long as you
55:06can if you're doing 996 I think it's
55:08good I was 996 but I didn't ask my team
55:11to be 996 uh we talked a lot about
55:14Europe these are two amazing companies
55:16in Europe and Europe's So, we started in
55:19Boston. And Boston's a little bit out
55:20like Europe. You're like outside the
55:22echo chamber of um Silicon Valley. And
55:27there's some real pluses and minuses to
55:29being outside of the valley. The pluses
55:31are you end up being a very large fish
55:34in a very small pond, which can help.
55:37And you have really good access to
55:40talent and not a lot of competition for
55:42that talent. So, real pluses. Um, the
55:46minuses we found out at HubSpot and
55:48they're going to find out is inside of
55:50Boston there's just not a lot of scale
55:52tech companies. So, we had a hard time
55:54finding executives who had seen that
55:56movie on that next level of scale. Like
55:58we took a couple people from Akami and
56:00that worked out, but it was pretty lean
56:02and so we started hiring execs out in
56:04San Francisco. So, real pluses and
56:06minuses to being in a big city. If I had
56:09to do HubSpot over again, by the way,
56:11you didn't ask, but uh I would have we
56:14were in Boston, I'd have a big office in
56:16Boston, big office in San Francisco,
56:18then another big office in, I don't
56:20know, Nashville or Denver or Toronto
56:22would be pretty good where you can hire
56:25lots and lots of people for less money
56:26and have them be a little bit more loyal
56:29than, let's say, in your San Francisco
56:30office. I wouldn't let everybody work
56:31from home. I'd have [music] three big
56:33hubs. Okay, we wound up obviously
56:35talking about Europe. They're both in
56:36Europe. Really encouraging for Europe.
56:38world could use more Silicon Valleys and
56:40the world could use, you know, a vibrant
56:43European entrepreneurial scene. [music]
56:45I love to hear from them that the
56:47engineering schools are chock full of
56:49kids that want to start companies. I
56:51think that's going to be good for the
56:52world and good for [music] Europe. So,
56:53I'm excited about that. I hope you
56:55enjoyed the episode. I really liked it.
56:57These two are great. I will see you on
56:59the next episode of Long Strange Trip.
57:09>> [music]