Ce n’est pas toi le problème, c’est ton style d’attachement, avec une thérapeute de couple

0:00I didn't know what my attachment style

0:02was before making this episode . I also

0:04didn't know the impact it had on

0:05romantic relationships . But thanks to

0:08our guest Florentine Dolnois Wang , a

0:10couples therapist , I now know what

0:11attachment styles are and how they

0:13interact with each other . Thank you to

0:15everyone who takes the time to

0:17subscribe . It’s what supports the

0:18channel the most , and I wish you a

0:20great listen . Welcome to Inpower , the

0:24media that empowers ideas .

0:28Hello , Florentine .

0:29Hello , Louise .

0:30Welcome to Inpower . I am delighted to

0:33have you here . I am delighted to be

0:36able to discuss with you many questions

0:38that I still ask myself today about

0:40love , relationships , and our attachment

0:42styles . Before we start talking about

0:45all that , I’d first like to ask you ,

0:47Florentine , what is your biggest

0:48unpopular opinion ?

0:51Listen , I try to push the idea that we

0:54should stop saying a few things , like "

0:56a relationship is all about

0:59communication , " or " communication is

1:01key . " If you want , we can talk about

1:04that . That routine kills love — we need

1:07to talk about that too . And , uh , also

1:10that we have to make compromises . We

1:12need to know how to compromise as a

1:14couple . For me , that is a total

1:15relationship killer . And if you’d

1:17like , we can unpack that . Well , listen ,

1:20I’d love to . First , I’d be curious

1:22to know what led you to debunk the fact

1:25that communication is , in the end , key

1:27to a relationship . Because we’ve seen

1:33it so much in magazines that when

1:35problems start in relationships , people

1:39communicate because they want to fix

1:41things . They communicate with an

1:45overactive nervous system , they

1:47communicate with their triggers wide

1:48open , and they run straight into a wall

1:50. Everyone has experienced that scene

1:55of wanting to talk about a problem at 1

1:57a.m. when we’re exhausted , when we

1:59don’t even know what we’re saying

2:01anymore , and we’re crying our eyes

2:03out . The next day , we wake up and think

2:06, " What was that last night ? " So no ,

2:09the key is not communication . The key

2:11is emotional safety . The key is

2:14connection . And communication either

2:18connects us or it disconnects us . Hm .

2:22You know , sometimes when I’m working

2:24with couples , I tell them , " From now

2:27until next time , I don’t want you to

2:29talk about your relationship , about

2:31what’s working or what’s not . " Just

2:35live your lives , go fishing , make love ,

2:37cook dinner , go on dates , do whatever

2:40you want , but stop communicating about

2:42the relationship . It’s true , because

2:47we hear it so much , and it feels like

2:50an action or a way to have power , so we

2:53tend to use it as a refuge , but if the

2:56foundation isn't there , the form won't

2:59save anything . And that’s exactly it .

3:04And we don't realize that in

3:06communicating , we might be leading the

3:08other into a dead end , or criticizing

3:11them ; it doesn’t always relieve the

3:13relationship . It just ...

3:17It’s not the key . It’s not the key .

3:20That doesn't mean you shouldn't

3:21communicate , you know .

3:22Yes .

3:23It’s human nature , everything needs

3:24nuance , right ?

3:25Of course . And we have a tendency , I

3:27think , to offer simple answers as if ...

3:31Yeah . ... as if it’s an easy fix , when

3:33in fact ... ... there’s a complexity

3:35underneath .

3:36Today , I’d like us to talk about

3:38attachment styles .

3:39Yeah . I know that , for once , this is a

3:42real key to understanding relationships

3:45. Now , it won't save everything , but it

3:48helps us understand ourselves and the

3:50other person better , and how the two of

3:53us relate . Can you start by telling us

3:55what an attachment style is and which

3:58ones exist today ? Which ones do we

4:00recognize ?

4:00Yeah . Let's go back to the source .

4:04You're a baby , you arrive in a home ,

4:07and you have a lot of needs . You see ,

4:10as babies , we are completely tied to

4:12the goodwill of our parents , to their

4:14physical , mental , emotional , and

4:16financial well-being , and so on . We are

4:19beings with zero autonomy , as human

4:22beings . So , we have these incredible ,

4:28incredible needs . And not many ways to

4:34ask for them . These attachment stories

4:40are structured when we are very , very

4:41small . Well , we obviously need to be

4:45fed , we need to be held , we need to be

4:47carried , we need interaction , to feel

4:49that we exist , to feel that we matter ,

4:52and so on and so forth . Lots and lots

4:55of needs . And will the parental system

4:57show up for that or not ? Hm . And it

5:00will show up in several different ways .

5:02So , as a baby , what we need to know is

5:05that if I'm not fed the minute I'm

5:07hungry , my nervous system is wired to

5:10make me react because it's a matter of

5:13life or death . So , we really need to

5:17understand that because we carry it

5:19with us later into adult life . We'll

5:22come back to that . So , as a baby , I

5:24might enter a home where my parental

5:27system is , uh , good enough . That comes

5:31from Winnicott . It's really , really

5:33precious . It’s not perfect . We don't

5:35need perfect parents . And they will

5:39adjust , tune in , and my internal

5:41experience — and therefore my nervous

5:44system's experience , my relational

5:46experience — will be : I know that if I

5:49need something , I can ask , it will come

5:51, I can wait , I can count on others , I

5:54can interact . I know we can create a

5:57relationship that will be nourishing ,

6:00that will be sufficient , that will be

6:03secure . And you see , that's how we

6:06start life and later enter adulthood

6:07and our romantic relationships . All our

6:10relationships , actually , but especially

6:12romantic relationships , are secure . And

6:15then , I might have arrived in a

6:17parental system where there wasn't much

6:20space for me . If I don't get enough

6:23mothering , I’ll develop a strategy as

6:32a baby : I'll have tasted what it's like

6:35to be fed , then mom or whoever moves

6:39away , and I'm starving . So what do I do

6:43? I scream my lungs out , I put all my

6:45energy into the outside world to bring

6:48the other person back because I have to

6:50eat . It's a matter of life or death .

6:53And that cycle will repeat itself ,

6:55because if my early attachment figure

6:59— my mother , my father , the people

7:01taking care of me — don't take enough

7:03care of me , abandonment wound , I’ll

7:05end up developing a mechanism where I

7:07tell myself : " Okay , you see , with my

7:08tiny little brain , I've figured it all

7:10out , I've understood the whole story . " "

7:12The other person must not pull away ,

7:14because if they do , I am in

7:16life-or-death danger . " So , I develop an

7:20anxious attachment strategy . That's how

7:24an anxious attachment is structured .

7:26And later on , I will enter my

7:28friendships and romantic relationships ,

7:30especially romantic ones , with that

7:34specific architecture . In other words ,

7:38I will have been wired to worry when

7:40there is too much distance , to need a

7:43text message back right away , to panic

7:45the moment I don't have the other

7:47person . So those are the consequences

7:49of anxious attachment style behavior .

7:52Exactly . It's the foundation . Meaning

7:56that , uh , someone who has developed an

7:59anxious attachment style is like a

8:01Russian nesting doll : inside , there's a

8:04tiny one with that abandonment wound of

8:07" I'm not getting enough nurturing , care

8:10; they don't see me enough , they don't

8:12look after me enough , " and so these are

8:15reflex arcs . It's your nervous system

8:18immediately saying : " If the other

8:19person pulls away , I am in danger . " You

8:21see , so you are in the anxiety of the

8:23bond . And so you will develop

8:26strategies in another scenario . You

8:29have another baby who is born and they

8:31feel , " I'm calling because I have a

8:33need . " " I need to be seen . " " I need to be

8:35loved . " " I need to be touched . " " I need

8:37to be fed . " And when I ask , I feel a

8:43rejection wound instead . There is

8:46something wrong . Many things can be

8:49happening . It's not necessarily a

8:51question of love . Parents — we often

8:52read a lot about a lack of love , but

8:54it's not a question of love . You can be

8:57in a home where there is depression ,

8:59where parents argue , you can be in a

9:01home with a bunch of siblings , or where

9:03there are financial problems . You see ,

9:07there are many things that can divert a

9:09parent's attention . It doesn't mean

9:12they don't love us , but as a baby , we

9:15will read it as , " Okay , I'm being

9:17rejected . " We interpret it

9:20that way .

9:20It's interpreted with a baby's brain .

9:22Uh .

9:23And the baby will immediately tell

9:24itself , " I've got the whole picture

9:25figured out . " " If I want care , I

9:27shouldn't make too much noise . " " I

9:30shouldn't show who I really am . " " I

9:32shouldn't express my emotions too much ,

9:35I shouldn't be too outward , because

9:37when I do that , I can clearly feel it's

9:39not going well . " Okay ? So I am going to

9:44withdraw inside myself . That creates

9:47what we call avoidant attachment styles

9:50. And the avoidant person , well , is

9:52someone who doesn't ask for much help .

9:53They're someone who , in a relationship ,

9:55is more in " I need space " mode . Uh ,

9:59they're more likely to be rigid , more

10:01likely to be controlling , and this was

10:03structured at an early age .

10:08It's crazy , isn't it , to think that we

10:11have no control over it , that we are

10:13the fruit of our past — and we'll come

10:16back to how we can act on it later

10:19because it's not set in stone . But in

10:23any case , it's quite wild to realize

10:25there is a concrete legacy of the

10:27relationships around us and what we

10:29understood from them . Yes . And you have

10:33a fourth attachment style called

10:36disorganized or chaotic attachment , uh ,

10:40where the object of care and love also

10:43becomes an object of violence ,

10:46mistreatment , or abuse . And what I

10:51learn in my relational system is that ,

10:53at the same time , I want connection ,

10:55and at the same time , I know that

10:57connection is very dangerous . So I push

11:00away and pull in at the same time . It's

11:03neither with you nor without you , you

11:04see . It's it's really what we call

11:08disorganized . And those people are

11:13often seen as manipulators , but in fact

11:16, it's just completely erratic . I

11:20navigate between clinging and avoiding ,

11:22clinging and avoiding ; it's unreadable

11:24for anyone . And then , well , there's an

11:27emotional world that is very , very

11:28triggered too . Uh , but it's not , uh ,

11:31it's not necessarily the most ... one

11:34thing I didn't specify , you know , is

11:37that with secure attachment , either you

11:41arrive in adult life with secure

11:43attachment , or you set out in life to

11:47regain secure attachment . And that is

11:50called earned security . Meaning you are

11:53no longer held hostage by your

11:55avoidance strategies , your anxious

11:56strategies , or the disorganized one .

11:59You have regained the ability to engage

12:04in a secure bond . Uh , and this recovery

12:08happens through relationships , in our

12:10friendships , in good work relationships

12:13, etc. , in romantic relationships , for

12:15better or worse . in therapeutic

12:19relationships , you see . But all this

12:21work we do is about returning . My

12:24coaching , that's what it is : returning

12:26to secure attachment . So , to summarize ,

12:29there are four attachment styles .

12:31Secure attachment ,

12:32anxious attachment ,

12:34avoidant attachment , and disorganized

12:36attachment .

12:37Exactly .

12:38Is there an incompatibility between

12:40certain attachment styles ? Is it going

12:43to be very difficult to relate ? For

12:46example , listening to you , I think ,

12:48well , if we have an anxious attachment

12:50style that requires a lot of love and

12:52demonstration , it will be complicated

12:53to be with an avoidant person who , on

12:55the contrary , is used to keeping things

12:57to themselves .

12:59Thanks , Louise , for your question ;

13:02that's fantastic . As it turns out , a

13:05large portion of life partners are

13:07anxious-avoidant pairs . We are

13:11constantly badgered with this story of

13:12incompatibility . I hate what I see on

13:15Instagram about avoidants being

13:16red-flagged left and right , and that

13:18they should be avoided . What you have

13:22to realize is that most of the things

13:24written about couples and relationship

13:27advice come from people who tend to

13:29have an anxious attachment . Obviously ,

13:34there is going to be an infernal cycle

13:36between the anxious and the avoidant ,

13:38which is also the solution . In a

13:44conflict , the person who tends to have

13:46an anxious attachment , no matter the

13:51topic , any topic , will look at their

13:53avoidant partner and think , " If you

13:56loved me , you would do what people do

13:58when they want connection . " " I know it ,

14:01I've learned it since I was little . " "

14:03When you want connection , you direct

14:05your energy outward . " " We talk , we speak

14:08, we ask , whereas you , " " you're behind

14:13your shell . " " We are trying to discuss

14:18something that concerns us , and you

14:19distance yourself . " " Help ! " " You must

14:22love me more , or you must love me less .

14:24" " So I'm going to do what I know needs

14:27to be done . " " When you want connection ,

14:29I'll send twice as much because I'm an

14:31anxious person , and that's my anxious

14:34strategy — it's another string to my

14:36bow . " Their avoidant partner on the

14:40other side will look at it and think , "

14:42Wait , if you loved me , you would filter

14:44— when you want connection , I know it ,

14:46I learned it . " " I've depended on it

14:49since I was a little boy or a little

14:50girl . " " When you want connection , " " you

14:54minimize , you hold back , you don't

14:56speak , because when you speak , it makes

14:58things worse . " " Yet you , help , you must

15:01love me more , or you must love me less .

15:04" " So what I'm going to do is step back

15:06two meters into my shell because I want

15:07to protect this connection . " And you

15:10see , it's interpreted that way . And the

15:15anxious person says , " But I’ve

15:17completely lost them , " and loses it .

15:21And there , the avoidant person shuts

15:22down . Do you see this hellish dance ?

15:27It’s essential to understand it

15:30because , in the snap of a finger , we

15:34can see that these two recruited each

15:36other to do something wonderful . To

15:39return to secure attachment , because

15:41the anxious person's solutions are the

15:44avoidant person's growth plan . The

15:47avoidant person's solutions are the

15:48anxious person's growth plan . So we

15:52must stop polarizing , fighting , and

15:55just understand the meaning , where it

15:57comes from , where it takes us , and the

15:59nightmare it can lead us into . And how

16:04do we deal with that together ? How ,

16:06together in this relationship that

16:09seems so incompatible , can I find a

16:13space of compatibility and walk toward

16:17your path ? You walk toward my path .

16:19Meeting halfway ,

16:20meeting halfway . Where the anxious

16:24learns to avoid , and the avoidant

16:26learns to hold on , to get closer , you

16:28see . So it's a misconception that

16:32there's an incompatibility between

16:34certain attachment styles . Are there

16:36other misconceptions you've come across

16:39, that you've read ,

16:40that are so

16:41prevalent that you'd like to

16:42deconstruct ?

16:43Well , there is this story of

16:47incompatibility . There are also many

16:50people who , after reading these posts

16:53or books , say , " Oh no , I can't , I'm

16:55avoidant , " or " Oh no , but I'm anxious . "

17:01It is not our identity . Being anxious ,

17:05avoidant , secure , or disorganized is

17:07not our identity ; it’s our primary

17:10survival suit . It’s the first

17:13adaptive relationship strategy we

17:16created when we arrived in the world .

17:18So it sticks to us , right , because it's

17:20been there since we were very small .

17:23And it started early on with our little

17:27world — our parents , our siblings , our

17:31loved ones . Then later , we enter school

17:35, a culture , a community . And a little

17:39boy who hears that little boys are

17:41strong and don't cry ... All of that

17:44reinforces it . In fact , we are in a

17:47society that manufactures it . Girls and

17:50boys are not mothered in the same way .

17:52No , there are consequences behind that

17:55in socialization . It's incredible

17:58and explains many of the gendered

18:00behaviors we see today , right ? How can

18:03we know our attachment style ? There are

18:07questions to ask yourself . For example ,

18:10in a conflict , do I tend to withdraw ,

18:14or do I tend to argue ? Uh , tell me ,

18:20when I'm in an intimate , romantic

18:23relationship with someone , is my cry ,

18:27my protest , more " I need space " or is

18:30it more " I want more of you " ? Do I find

18:36it easy to share my vulnerability , my

18:41emotions , or do I have more of a

18:48tendency to keep them to myself ? Listen

18:52, I'd really like to test it out . I've

18:54never really known , well , I've never

18:57sought to know what my attachment style

19:00was . And since you're here , you're with

19:03us , could you try to probe me to find

19:06out what my attachment style is ? My

19:10pleasure . When you're in an intimate ,

19:14romantic relationship , are you more the

19:18type who needs their own bubble , their

19:22uh , space , or are you more the one who

19:26asks when we're going to see each other

19:28again ? Uh , which way do you lean ?

19:32I'm more someone who needs my own

19:34bubble and space , and not to be glued

19:37together .

19:38Yeah . Is it easy for you to ask for

19:41help ?

19:44No , it's not easy for me to ask for

19:45help . Do you share ? Is it easy for you

19:52to go to your partner when you're in a

19:54romantic relationship like that and say

19:57, " Hey , let's talk about our

19:59relationship , there are things that are

20:01complicated for me . " " Could we look at

20:05this or that aspect of our relationship

20:07? "

20:08No. And that has led to some strange

20:11endings for me because it's so hard

20:14that I'd rather not do it than take the

20:17risk of doing it wrong .

20:19Hm . Yeah , what you're describing is

20:21really touching . What you have to

20:24understand is that the core wound of

20:27the avoidant is rejection . And so the

20:32avoidant may reject others for fear of

20:34being rejected themselves .

20:35Hm .

20:36You see ? And what happens , by the way ,

20:39in the anxious-avoidant cycle is that

20:40the anxious person says , " This isn't

20:42enough , " you see , the anxious person's

20:44go-to is criticism . Anxious people

20:46really have a lot of work to do

20:47regarding that . And what they make the

20:51avoidant feel , and that is my next

20:52question for you . In the relationship ,

20:55have you ever thought , " Actually ,

20:57whatever I do , it's not enough ; the way

20:59I am , the way I act , it's never going

21:01to satisfy them " ? I would say yes , but

21:05that's not specific to romantic

21:07relationships .

21:08Ah .

21:09It's in life in general , a feeling of "

21:12I could have always done better . " But

21:17it's one that I feel is shared , uh ,

21:21it's shared , you know . You see , the

21:24core wound for the avoidant is , uh , no

21:27matter what I do , it's never enough .

21:32That rejection wound for the anxious ,

21:34it's more of an abandonment wound ,

21:35which is : I'm not enough for you to

21:37want to stay with me . So , these are two

21:40wounds sitting in the room right next

21:42to each other , you see . Because ,

21:44because it’s about loneliness , it’s

21:47that doubt of , uh , but it’s just a

21:49little bit different in the , in the

21:52feeling , uh : " I'm not enough " or " what

21:54I'm doing isn't right . " There's being

21:58and having the impression . Well , being

22:00and doing , perhaps .

22:01Uh , perhaps a bit more . By the way ,

22:04avoidants , their love language is often

22:08acts of service ,

22:09yeah .

22:10It's very much in the action , it's very

22:11much because they are people who find

22:13it harder to share their emotions ,

22:15their sensations , their dreams , their

22:16plans , their desires , and so on . So

22:18their way of loving is much more , uh ,

22:24materialized . That's the word , but

22:26concrete .

22:26Concrete . It expresses itself through

22:29doing , you know , through action . Yes ,

22:31through action .

22:32Hm . Do the attachment styles , well , the

22:37attachment style we have , uh , influence

22:39the people we are attracted to ?

22:41Of course . Of course . Uh , life wants us

22:47to be alive and it is wonderfully well

22:51organized . We have this little inner

22:55radar that is going to , uh , direct us

22:58toward life situations , toward

23:01professional , friendly , romantic

23:03environments , and so on , toward people ,

23:07uh , who will be able to , uh , ask us to

23:12become what we have frozen again .

23:15Hm . Uh ,

23:16you see , I think we are born wonders ,

23:18that we arrive in the world with

23:20extraordinary potential in all areas .

23:23And you just have to look at a baby ,

23:24right ? I don't know if you're around

23:25babies lately . Me , I saw one last

23:27weekend . Everything is there . Uh ,

23:29everything is there . I , I watched that

23:31little one , the ability to refuse , to

23:33tense up . He didn't want his mother's

23:35breast anymore . He does like this , he

23:37turns his head . Hm . He is hungry , he

23:39calls out , he asks . When we are babies ,

23:42we have all this possibility to say yes

23:44, to say no , to ask , the whole capacity

23:46to surrender or the capacity to tense

23:48up . There is all , we see that all the

23:50intelligence is there , in the making ,

23:52there is this tenderness , there is this

23:56joy , this creativity , in short , we had

24:00everything like that . And then we take

24:04a journey back into our childhood . We

24:07take a journey surrounded by people , in

24:10an environment , a culture , a religion ,

24:13and so on , which will send us messages :

24:16that , for example , uh , a girl is

24:18well-behaved , that , that a boy doesn't

24:21cry , that we receive tons of messages

24:24and there will also be traumas . We will

24:28experience relationship mishaps and ,

24:31along the way , we will put parts of

24:34ourselves in the freezer because , as a

24:36child , we will always prefer to keep

24:39the bond with the other person rather

24:42than keep the bond with parts of

24:44ourselves . So , if I am a little girl

24:48who has a huge amount of energy and I

24:50arrive in a home with a mother who gets

24:52migraines , for example , and well , first

24:54thing in the morning , I scream because

24:56the cat is crossing the yard and it's

24:58so amazing and ... I will quickly feel

25:02all that energy , that thing , I will

25:04hear " you're exhausting me " or " you're

25:06going to kill me " or ... you see , things

25:07we say to children . Anyway , I will very

25:10quickly say to myself , " Okay , all this

25:13vitality , into the freezer , because if

25:16I express it , it's not okay . " We can

25:21freeze , freeze our vitality , we can

25:23freeze our sensuality , we can freeze

25:25our ability to speak up , the right to

25:27set our boundaries , and so on and so

25:29forth . You see , so we are going to

25:31arrive in life with plenty of freezers

25:34and , in romantic encounters , a few

25:37super interesting things will happen :

25:39the person we meet will be super

25:42comfortable where we are very frozen ,

25:47to come and defrost these parts of us a

25:49little , because it's irresistible ,

25:52because I recognize lost aspects of

25:54myself and it's incredible . I am super

25:58shy , very , and you , you walk into a

25:59café , you're already talking to

26:01everyone . Wow ! Wow ! At first , it’s

26:05going to be a " wow . " They are our

26:07growth plan in the flesh . We used to be

26:09that , we lost it . In a second phase , we

26:12are going to bash the other person for

26:14being the way they are . " No , but anyway

26:16, you just arrive somewhere , and that's

26:18it , you're talking to everyone , it's

26:19ridiculous . " It's the very thing that

26:20made us fall in love , right ?

26:21Hm . And that's normal , there's really

26:26something to understand , which is that

26:28if I let that go , it's because I was

26:29made to believe I'd lose love if I

26:31stayed that way . And you , I see you

26:36doing it . So I'm telling you stop ,

26:38don't do that . You’ll lose love if

26:39you do that . You might even lose mine .

26:42Do you see what we're caught in ? We

26:44need , we need emotional intelligence .

26:46That's what I'm really trying to

26:48explain : that love isn't enough , that

26:51we're born wonders , that we've frozen

26:54up a lot along the way , that some of us

26:57also have traumas on top of that that

27:00made things heavier , that we meet to

27:02obviously enjoy ourselves , build , and

27:05so on , but also to heal and grow . I

27:09thought you were going to say thaw out .

27:11Well , thaw out , and I think it's a very

27:14beautiful metaphor . But to thaw out ,

27:16how can we know what we've frozen ?

27:19Because listening to you , I wonder , " Oh

27:21well , I'd be curious to know what I put

27:23in the freezer . " For example , the

27:26ability to say when things aren't right

27:28. For example , the ability to show , uh ,

27:33your emotions , your boundaries , your ...

27:35it's linked in any case to my

27:38attachment style , actually . Meaning ,

27:41what is frozen is directly linked to

27:43the attachment style I developed . Uh ,

27:47yes . And , uh , there's , there's also

27:51another part . But , but , yes . Yes , of

27:54course . Hm .

27:55Of course .

27:56What is romantic recruitment ? Uh , this

27:59romantic recruitment , is that it ? This ,

28:02you see , among the tens of thousands of

28:06people we come across , some will catch

28:11our attention and , uh , not just at

28:15first sight . First sight is just , it

28:18lights something up . But we're going to

28:21, we're going to see each other , we're

28:23going to get a taste of each other , and

28:24we're going to see the other person

28:26function , and their way of functioning

28:27will make us want to blend more .

28:29Hm . You see ? So it's , it's really , it's

28:32really , it's really , we don't fall in

28:35love . Uh .

28:37We become it .

28:39We become it .

28:40Uh , and there is , and there is really

28:42this , this trial period of who I'm

28:44going to keep in my life . And for me ,

28:46this recruitment has three criteria

28:47that we don't look at enough , that we

28:49aren't aware enough of . It's the first

28:51" wow , wow , you . " Meaning I see the

28:55wonder . There's a window that opens on

28:58you and I see you . Uh , maybe even that ,

29:01uh , others can't understand what I see

29:05in you . You know , it's a miraculous

29:08window that opens . A particular light .

29:12Yeah . Something that something that

29:14goes beyond us . Uh , then , there is It's

29:20fascinating . You , you are very free

29:22where I am very frozen . Incredible .

29:25Incredible . The third criterion is that

29:29, uh , I grew up with a father , a mother

29:32, or fathers , mothers , or my little

29:35world , the people who took care of me

29:38when I was little . There might have

29:40been my brothers and sisters , maybe

29:41grandparents , a godfather , a godmother ,

29:43people closer like that . Uh , and it's

29:46with them that I learned about

29:47relationships , first as a baby , then

29:49later in elementary school , and so on .

29:53And the character traits of those

29:55people left an imprint on me . I took

29:57pictures with my heart inside , and with

29:59all those pictures , I'm going to make a

30:01stencil . I'll make a stencil with "

30:06distant " — like I'm just saying

30:08anything — I'm not talking about me ,

30:11but distant like Dad , or strict like

30:14Grandma , or the people who really

30:16mattered and left an imprint on me —

30:19they will have drawn a stencil inside

30:21me of what a loving relationship is . We

30:28learn by mimicking what we observe , we

30:30learn from what we have experienced .

30:34And so if I experienced a relationship

30:37with my father that was controlling ,

30:39and I recognize something familiar ,

30:41there are people who will match that

30:43stencil and those ones will do

30:45something to me . A bit like the game of

30:48Memory .

30:49Yes . When someone matches my internal

30:53stencil , it does something to me . I

30:57feel like I've known you forever . I

31:00feel like I know you by heart , you see .

31:04And that will contribute to that

31:05romantic spark . And so through you , I

31:13will be brought back to emotional

31:16states from when I was little . And

31:19that's why in a romantic relationship ,

31:21there is no , there's no relationship

31:22like that , in which I can get myself

31:24into all sorts of states , actually ,

31:26because all of a sudden you'll say

31:27something to me and it will be like a

31:29booster shot of me being 6 years old ,

31:31and I'll react like a little 6 - year-old

31:32girl . That’s why , as a couple , you

31:39see , we have to discern in what we

31:41experience together what is

31:43unacceptable , from " you make me feel

31:46sad " or " you make me feel humiliated "

31:49or " you make me feel ... because of you ,

31:52I'm falling back into a childhood wound

31:55. " Because the other person isn't

32:01always the hand that wounds , but they

32:03just happen to touch where we are

32:05wounded , and we recruited them to do

32:07that because they fit our template . We

32:10knew they would be like that . We knew

32:12it . We know it in the early stages . We

32:15scanned the person , we saw and we

32:19recognize it . And I know very well that

32:20you are going to press right there ,

32:22where I’m already sore , where I have

32:23a bruise underneath . It’s a call from

32:24life to say there are bruises there ,

32:26let's take care of them , folks . and

32:29vice versa . How do we know when the act

32:35of touching our wounds is meant to be

32:40helpful and we can let it slide , and

32:45maybe sometimes be careful because , in

32:47fact , the person is pressing too hard ?

32:49It hurts too much and in the end , even

32:54if we recruited them for it , it's ...

32:56Yeah , it becomes too painful . Yes ,

32:58great question . First , you have to look

33:01at whether what we are experiencing

33:03belongs to the human pact . Are you

33:07trying to , uh , humiliate me ? Are you

33:11going beyond my consent ? Are you being

33:15physically violent ? Are you being

33:18verbally violent ? Are you screaming ?

33:20Are you ... All of that does not belong

33:22in the relationship . Or is it that ,

33:31because you're late , maybe even the

33:33first time you're late , I fall apart

33:36because I have a history with lateness ,

33:38and so , because you're late , it puts me

33:40back into " I'm 5 years old and I'm in

33:42trouble , " you know ? Because , ultimately

33:45, a woman of 25 or 30 , well , her guy is

33:48late , he’s just late , you see . It’s

33:50annoying , sure , it’s frustrating ,

33:52sure . But the state it puts me in , is

33:55it , you see , it’s disproportionate .

33:58Is it disproportionate ? And when it is

34:01disproportionate , it's wonderful ; it's

34:03up to us to look inside . It’s a

34:05signal . I have a wound that needs

34:08healing , it's still raw . So I’ve

34:10recruited you , I keep you close to me ,

34:12and naturally , you’re going to step

34:13on it again and again . I could spend my

34:15life grabbing the remote , trying to

34:16control you , saying " never again , you

34:17are going to be late . " But we know life

34:19isn't like that , and in life , we are

34:21going to be late . And true freedom ,

34:26when I speak of a new way of living , is

34:28that when we work on this together as a

34:31couple , as things happen , well , a few

34:33years later , " you're late " doesn't

34:35affect me anymore . Because that’s it ,

34:39the little girl inside me who was in

34:41pain , who thought she would die because

34:44she was waiting all alone . It’s over .

34:48We’ve welcomed her , we’ve moved on .

34:52What is the mission of a couple ?

34:56That is the mission of a couple : with

34:59love , because life is messy and just

35:02like that , we’re going to push each

35:05other’s buttons . And when we hold

35:10hands through it , saying , " We’re

35:12going to take this relationship far " —

35:15and I don’t necessarily mean in terms

35:18of time , though I like that too , but

35:21deep , and we won’t give up . We’ll

35:24understand what is happening to us ,

35:27because we know that where there is

35:29conflict , there is healing and growth

35:32for you and for me . We’re going to do

35:34that work . We are doctors , in fact . We

35:40are , we are , we are doctors of the

35:42heart . Yeah , we could say it like that .

35:45You know what I often say , it's that in

35:47the space of a couple , there is a

35:49healer who lives there . It’s up to us

35:53to wake her up , because if we don’t

35:56team up with her , she becomes a witch .

36:00Because if I have wounds and you keep

36:06pressing on that wound , and we learn

36:09nothing from it , and we do nothing ,

36:12it’s going to be screaming every

36:15single day . When in fact , we can take

36:20care of it and move on .

36:24What is the biggest illusion you would

36:26like to dispel about relationships ? Uh ,

36:31this thing where because we love each

36:33other , it’s enough to just look into

36:35each other’s eyes and we’ll guess

36:36everything , we’ll know everything .

36:39H

36:40You see , it's like if we love each

36:41other , it should be obvious , you know .

36:44We are , we are very influenced by the

36:46cinematic universe , novels , series , and

36:48so on .

36:49And we are shown romantic love , but we

36:52aren't shown what the reality of a

36:54couple is . Yeah .

36:56And no , everything won't just flow

36:58naturally because we love each other ,

37:01and that long-term relating out of love

37:04is work . It’s going to require us to

37:08build skills , it’s going to require

37:11us to roll up our sleeves , and it’s

37:14extraordinary , and it’s an incredible

37:17gift . That works out well , I have a

37:21real test to propose to you . Come on ,

37:23I'll read you a few statements and you

37:25can tell me if you think they are true

37:27or false , and tell me in one sentence

37:28why . Let's go . Our attachment style

37:31defines who we are . False . It greatly

37:35impacts the way we form relationships .

37:38But it’s not who we are ; it’s the

37:39way we protect ourselves from

37:41connection . Knowing your attachment

37:44style is enough to improve a

37:45relationship . It's a good start , but

37:49then you shouldn't stop there because

37:52I'm avoidant , you know ; we must know

37:54that we are works in progress .

37:58Arguments in a relationship are a bad

37:59sign . Not at all , not at all , not at

38:02all . No , no , no . A couple that doesn't

38:04argue worries me a lot . Uh , no . Couple

38:07life is a series of connection ,

38:10disconnection , repair , and reconnection

38:13. What matters is how we argue and

38:19becoming super skilled at repair .

38:25Being too much in love can be a warning

38:27sign . If by " too much in love " you mean

38:32completely letting go of your inner

38:34radar and ignoring all the red flags

38:37that are blinking right there . Yes .

38:40Afterward , being too full of love isn't

38:45a problem . Yeah . Are we ever too full

38:49of love ? Yeah . No , I don't think we

38:53ever will be , but you know , you can

38:55sometimes feel that thing that bursts

38:57with too much love . It's almost painful

39:00. That one isn't serious . That one is

39:02really tears of joy . Yeah . Whereas the

39:06kind of blindness ,

39:08Yes .

39:09that one , be careful .

39:11What we also call love bombing .

39:13Yeah . Because we can miss the signs and

39:15we can end up ...

39:17Yeah . When it's the right person , the

39:20relationship is easy — no way ! No ,

39:23rather than the idea of " the right

39:25person , " to relax everyone a bit on

39:27that subject , because if everything is

39:29tied to the right person , you have no

39:32control . The idea is to really , truly

39:36build the right relationship , because

39:39the " right person " can be , you know ,

39:41the white knight , the prince on his

39:44white horse , and everything depends on

39:47finding that right person . And what's

39:50more , there's only one , so if we miss

39:51them , we're doomed .

39:52That puts impossible pressure on us .

39:54Focusing on

39:56creating a good relationship , because

39:59when we do that , we aren't trapped or

40:01tied down . We start to realize that we

40:04have a huge impact on what will be

40:07experienced between us . You know ,

40:11opposites attract . Yes , opposites

40:15attract . Opposites attract because we

40:18were talking about anxious-avoidant

40:19attachment earlier . What we’ve frozen

40:23, but see as very alive in someone else

40:25, is irresistible because it speaks to

40:28our lost parts . So very often , we talk

40:31about the odd couple or we talk about

40:33incompatibility . That's not what this

40:35is about at all . It’s just that we

40:36have to do the work . And finally , do we

40:39keep the same attachment style our

40:40whole life ? Not at all , not at all . We

40:44can really shut down , a little Q.E.D.

40:47on how relationships are just too

40:50dangerous , because we’ve bumped into

40:52our attachment patterns without

40:55understanding the ins and outs , and

40:57without managing to bring in something

41:00new or move forward on our own path . So

41:04that’s going to harden the armor .

41:06Yes .

41:06It’s going to become more and more

41:07painful . Yes . Or else we can embrace

41:10this proposition of romantic

41:12intelligence and then sail toward

41:18secure attachment , quietly but surely ,

41:20step by step , new experience after new

41:23experience . You see , our bonding

41:26experiences will either confirm for us

41:29that , well , relationships are

41:31definitely hard , or we’ll experience

41:34something new , and that will help clear

41:36away some of those old , difficult

41:38experiences .

41:40Yeah . Yeah . So we aren't defined by our

41:43romantic and emotional history either .

41:47Fortunately , and happily so . Oh no . Can

41:50we — a question I ask myself — can we

41:52be equals in a romantic relationship ?

41:57Can there be some form of equality or

42:03fairness in love ? In other words , can a

42:07form exist other than domination or one

42:10person having the advantage over the

42:13other ? Oh my ! But of course , absolutely

42:18. I don't know , you know , we hear a lot

42:21— and I think many of us have been

42:23there — about phases where one of you

42:25is a bit more , well , I don't know if

42:27it's more in love than the other , but

42:29in any case , more invested in the

42:31relationship . Uh , and sometimes , I feel

42:34like we're doomed to never necessarily

42:37be on the same page at the same time .

42:42These phases , you know , they alternate .

42:45Sometimes , I see it with Édouard ,

42:48right ? Sometimes he's at 100 % , I'm at

42:51100 % , sometimes I'm at 20 % , he's at 60

42:53or 80 ; sometimes it's very fluctuating .

42:56So first of all , a message : we have

42:58many lives in a life and many couples

43:00within a couple . Me , after 30 years of

43:02life with Édouard , I can tell you

43:04we're not at all the same as we were in

43:05the beginning . We started with very

43:07anxious and avoidant profiles . Today ,

43:09this journey is just completely

43:11incredible . And we’ve had several

43:14couples within our couple . And uh , of

43:18course there's fairness , of course

43:20there's equality , and sometimes it's

43:22completely unfair because I'm a total

43:24mess and he's the one carrying me , and

43:26vice versa — you know , it's just

43:30fluctuating and it's

43:31fluctuating and it's okay . It's not a

43:33big deal ; we shouldn't seek balance at

43:35any price , you know .

43:38No , you know , the " Instagrammable "

43:40couple , it doesn't exist . It doesn't

43:44exist . It's

43:45a performance .

43:46It's all a performance . There are ,

43:47there are all states of a relationship .

43:501,000 times I’ve told myself I have

43:51to leave Édouard , it’s not possible .

43:54I , I , I , I don’t want to live this

43:56anymore . It taps into a lot of my

43:59wounds , right ? Uh , but and I imagine

44:02he’s told himself that 1,000 times

44:04too . Uh , and right now , you see , we're

44:07in a phase where we look at each other

44:08and say , " What a blast ! "

44:10Hm .

44:10You see ? Ah , it's hard to know , uh ,

44:15what is just a passing phase and what

44:18is

44:19Yes .

44:20real and inevitable .

44:22Yes . And then , on top of that , there

44:23are the hormonal fluctuations , right ?

44:25Uh , when I , when I still had my cycles ,

44:27I could clearly see there was a time of

44:30the month where , uh ,

44:32h to be aware of it . Perimenopause ,

44:37they call it the " gray divorce , " right ?

44:41Between 45 and 55 , depending on the

44:43woman , they just can't stand their guy

44:45anymore . There’s something very

44:48radical that’s actually great for

44:50recalibrating the relationship . It's

44:52it's very very beautiful , these

44:54transformations . It's really a period

44:56where or else touch touch through the

44:58window . Hm .

45:00There are there are there are also the

45:02hormones , there are there are so many

45:04things , the children , there are so many

45:06things . From what I understand , there's

45:09no attachment style that is problematic

45:11in itself . At what point can it become

45:14one ? What becomes problematic is when

45:18we start saying " I am this way , and

45:19that's it . " " Take me as I am . " When you

45:24start to become rigid and decree that

45:26it's the other person who is going to

45:28change or adapt or submit or compromise

45:31, but that you will not change , there

45:33is no more life , no more purpose for

45:35the couple .

45:39So , when someone starts saying " I won't

45:42change , " there's a form of resignation .

45:47Yeah . Sometimes it's a bit more hostile

45:48than that , isn't it ? It's not just " I

45:50am resigned , " it's " I won't change . "

45:53It's also bad faith .

45:54It's yeah , it can be it can be it can

45:56be very violent , relationally speaking .

45:58It is .

45:59And what can we do if we are aware of

46:01the limitations of our attachment style

46:04, or at least that the behaviors it

46:07causes are not serving us ? What can we

46:10put in place to have a healthier , more

46:11secure attachment style ? Look at our

46:16growth challenges . You see , every

46:18attachment style has its growth

46:19challenges , uh , regarding

46:23neuro-emotional regulation , regarding

46:26how to read what is happening in the

46:29relationship , regarding there is there

46:32is a whole list of inner steps we can

46:35take on our own . We don't imagine to

46:38what extent one person on their own can

46:40completely change the relationship .

46:42Hm .

46:42That's another piece of nonsense we

46:44hear a lot . It takes two to make a

46:46relationship change . That's not true .

46:49In cases of infidelity , yes . In cases

46:50of violence , yes . There are cases where

46:53I need both to work on it , but it's not

46:55the majority at all . And of course , one

46:58person on their own , since it's a

47:00system , if I start sending new

47:02responses and new proposals into what

47:05is happening between us , it will

47:07necessarily ricochet and have an impact

47:10on the other . But of course , of course .

47:14What actually makes it possible to save

47:16a relationship ? The possibility of

47:24creating relational security , that is

47:27to say the ability to put down the

47:30sword and the shield , to sit down , to

47:33say to oneself : " We're exhausted here ,

47:36this struggle ... it's um ... " and to , and

47:39to touch a more vulnerable part , um

47:42more fluid , you see , more um ...

47:45malleable , modifiable , softer , which

47:47will allow for co-creation , because

47:50often couples don't separate due to a

47:52lack of love , you know , but it's just

47:54that they have too many nightmares

47:56together , they fight too much , they

47:58mistake the enemy .

48:01The enemy isn't the other person most

48:04of the time . I'm not talking about

48:05being in a relationship with a toxic

48:07personality , where obviously we're in a

48:08different scenario .

48:09Yeah .

48:09Often the enemy is not the other person

48:11. The enemy is the old childhood wounds

48:15that the other person keeps stepping on

48:17, and that Do you remember the first

48:21couple you ever counseled , and what

48:23were the

48:25difficulties they were facing ? Was it

48:29related to attachment ? If so , what

48:31changed ? Um , how did it happen ?

48:36That therapy was quite overwhelming . It

48:40was a couple who arrived because they

48:41had lost a child . Uh , actually , they

48:44didn't arrive because they lost a child

48:46, but they had completely lost

48:48themselves . Uh , and what was very , very

48:52moving , was that in the face of the

48:54pain of losing this child , both had

48:56become avoidant . Meaning , to protect

49:00the other and to protect the

49:02relationship , they had never opened

49:04that bubble in which to share their

49:08grief , to share their pain through all

49:10the stages . It was a child they had

49:12supported through a long medical

49:14journey , and it was truly out of love

49:16and to protect one another . that they

49:20had not communed , communicated , that

49:22they had not shared . Uh , and my job was

49:26just to allow them a bubble in which

49:29they could finally cry . We cried all —

49:32I still remember that counseling

49:34session because it was very , very

49:37moving , and as they were able to talk

49:39and not avoid the subject , you know ,

49:42really meet each other in the

49:45most

49:47intense , in the most immense of pains .

49:50Uh , they felt the energy and life

49:52return between them . The joy , pockets

49:56of desire , because , because everything

49:58had shut down , because they were living

50:00in parallel , encapsulated in their pain

50:03, you see .

50:04Yeah . Each on their own side to try not

50:06to hurt the other , when in the end , you

50:08end up hurting everyone .

50:10Well , it just created a no-man's-land ,

50:12so they were getting lost , you see .

50:15It was , it was very , it was , I still

50:17remember that first couple . Not sharing

50:20what you're feeling is one of the

50:22mistakes you can make . Um , when you're

50:24in a relationship regarding your

50:26attachment style , are there other

50:28mistakes you see a lot with the people

50:31you coach and where you'd actually like

50:33to say , " Look , you really should stop

50:36this , " or " It's working against you " ?

50:38Yeah . The shadow for anxious profiles

50:46is often being critical , blaming , and

50:51taking their emotions at face value .

50:57You see , an emotion is actually an

50:59indication , it flows through us , it's a

51:01compass , it's a passing indicator of

51:03something , but wallowing in it and

51:05making your partner the cause of your

51:08emotion — and criticizing them , and if

51:10they're avoidant , it's going to fall on

51:12deaf ears , it's not the way I am , and

51:15they will avoid even more because

51:17that's their greatest pain . Hence the

51:20importance of knowing the attachment

51:22style of the person you're in a

51:23relationship with .

51:24To be able to navigate , to

51:26to be able to navigate and know what's

51:29what .

51:31Anyway , at least understand that the

51:33behaviors we may have are not voluntary

51:36. I don't know if we can use that term .

51:38Yes , it's not intentional . These are

51:40survival reactions .

51:42It's and what I forgot to say earlier ,

51:44you know when we were talking about the

51:46quiz , is that on my site , I put a quiz

51:48precisely for those who want to discern

51:50their attachment style

51:51because it does provide a map ,

51:53it does provide

51:54and it helps you orient yourself , to

51:55understand , especially to understand

51:56the other person and to stop telling

51:58yourself stories .

51:59Mm .

52:00And you see , among the mistakes not to

52:01make for the avoidant , there is it's OK

52:05to need space . But shutting down , not

52:11talking , and not saying when I'll come

52:14back into contact , that's emotional

52:17abuse . There is something to understand

52:20though : that of course it's a survival

52:23solution , but don't forget that there's

52:25someone else there , and there's a heart

52:28beating that isn't our enemy , and it's

52:31perfectly OK to be able to say , " Listen

52:33, I can't right now , uh , tomorrow , " but

52:36to say when I'll return and to actually

52:38return because ...

52:40Yes , it's a form of respect for the

52:42other person , too .

52:43Yes .

52:44It's taking care of the bond . Taking

52:46care . I have my survival suit that

52:48makes me do that , OK , but I take care

52:49in the same way the anxious person has

52:51to learn to express their needs without

52:53tearing the other person down .

52:55All of this requires us to develop a

52:57form of romantic intelligence

53:01which is a concept you developed . You

53:02even wrote a book about it , Hipponyme .

53:05What is romantic intelligence ? Well ,

53:10it's that whole array of perspectives

53:14on the relationship , internal skills ,

53:18and tools to use together

53:22h

53:24in service of the relationship . So , the

53:27vision of the couple , understanding the

53:29couple's mission , attachment styles ,

53:32and so on , and then taking control of

53:34what I call our neuro-emotional

53:36reactions — you know , that

53:38action-reaction loop — to be able to

53:40pause and choose our response because

53:42our response impacts

53:46the other person and impacts the

53:47relationship .

53:47Being able to act rather than just

53:49reacting .

53:50Exactly . To choose , in fact . Yeah .

53:53And to be in service of the

53:55relationship rather than in defense of

53:57oneself . You see ?

53:59Where do you think we are cruelly

54:00lacking in romantic intelligence ?

54:04Uh , we are in a society today that

54:07thinks emotional discomfort is a

54:11disaster . And so when the other person

54:14puts me in emotional discomfort , I

54:16prefer to cut it off and stop rather

54:17than saying , " Great , there's something

54:19to dig into here . " You see , conflict or

54:23emotional discomfort is like a metal

54:25detector you pass over the beach . It

54:28makes a terrible noise , but it means if

54:30I dig underneath , there's a treasure .

54:32Hm . Today , we flee from emotional

54:35discomfort . So , what do we do ? Next . On

54:40to the next one . We prefer to leave

54:42rather than face it . We prefer to leave

54:45rather than dig . I wouldn't even say "

54:47face it , " you know . I would say , uh ,

54:49deepen , dig , understand , shed light ,

54:52discover ,

54:53discover , create something new , own

54:55your part , understand . And we don't

54:59have to change partners to change the

55:02relationship .

55:03Hm .

55:05You can truly have a completely

55:07different relationship with the same

55:08person . What would you have liked to

55:12know earlier about love if you could

55:14give your 20 - year-old self some advice ?

55:17I would have loved to listen to this

55:19podcast when I met Édouard . It would

55:22have saved us years of conflict and

55:24relational mediocrity , despite all the

55:26love we already had for each other . Uh ,

55:31we spent , uh , 5 , 7 years . So , at the

55:35beginning , it was " Fly High , " in love ,

55:37great , wonderful , and then , you know ,

55:39we had three children , and so on .

55:42Honestly , we got into scenes that , when

55:44I think back on them , I can still see

55:46them in my head . When I see where we

55:48are today , I think , " Wow , was that

55:49really us ? " Yeah , I would have liked , I

55:52would have liked , I would have liked to

55:54have met the me of today , to have her

55:56tell me a bit about all of this .

55:59What have you discovered recently ?

56:01Because what you're sharing with us is

56:03the result of years of research , work ,

56:05and exploration . I’d be curious to

56:08know if , today , you are still making

56:10discoveries or realizations .

56:12Yes .

56:13As for what constitutes

56:15romantic intelligence and the

56:16relationship ,

56:19it's very personal , but I’ve gone

56:21through menopause these last few years

56:24and it’s been incredibly difficult .

56:27Really , I’ve had a rough time , as

56:30they

56:31as the young people say . And on the

56:37other side , it’s like a hormonal

56:42liberation , and I truly understood how

56:45much my cycle had also governed my life

56:48, my relationship , my emotional

56:51availability , and so on . But it really

56:55appeared to me — well , there was the

56:58perimenopause and menopause , which were

57:00really hard , and now that everything

57:02has stabilized , and that is a real

57:10discovery , I didn’t know it , and

57:12it’s a great gift .

57:14Yeah , yeah .

57:15It gives me a lot of space , it gives me

57:19a lot of security . And energy . Yeah .

57:26What do you think helped you the most

57:29in reaching secure attachment ? That

57:35with Edouard , we really sought , we

57:40explored . It’s really , you know ,

57:43it’s in the bond that we are wounded ,

57:45the bond with our mother , the bond with

57:47our father , the bond with our little

57:49world . It is in the bond that we heal .

57:54And my greatest gift in this life has

57:57been this man who is okay with us

58:00learning to create something new in our

58:03bond and each finding our way , because

58:07he did his own work . I mean , we really

58:10did that , we did that . Now , I was the

58:13driving force , I read and worked a lot ,

58:16a lot , a lot more than he did . But

58:19that’s not a problem because he was

58:25willing to be influenced . That is a

58:27great , great quality in love , in a

58:30relationship : being willing to be

58:32influenced by the other , to be open , in

58:35fact .

58:35Yeah . Afterward , you keep what speaks

58:37to you and what works for you , but you

58:39shouldn't be closed off from the start .

58:40Yeah .

58:42Yeah . We don't get everything right . We

58:44are completely biased . We are , and it

58:48really is this bond in which we heal ,

58:50you know . Why were you saying at the

58:53beginning of this episode that , no ,

58:55routine does not kill a relationship ?

58:58Ah yes , routine is the fabric on which

59:03we weave our relational life , our love

59:08life . We get confused , we reason poorly

59:11, we tell ourselves that routine kills

59:13love . Not at all . Not bringing in

59:16anything new is what kills love . But

59:20routine is our bedrock , it's our

59:22foundation . You see , these are such ,

59:24such twisted thoughts , it’s almost a

59:26fallacy . It’s not , it's not routine

59:29that kills love , it's failing to keep

59:31bringing in something new . So let's

59:33keep the routine , don't blame the wrong

59:35soldier . Hm . You know , my grandmother ,

59:42when my grandfather died , she told me ,

59:44" What I miss most are his handkerchiefs

59:47in the washing machine . " Yet , it used

59:49to disgust me ; how many times did I

59:51complain , how many times did I ask him

59:53to buy paper tissues , but no , he loved

59:55his cloth handkerchiefs . And then in

59:57the evening , as soon as night fell , he

59:59would go around the house to close the

1:00:00shutters because he knew it scared me

1:00:02so much . If that isn't the most routine

1:00:06of routines . And that's what made me ,

1:00:10it was that discussion right there .

1:00:11Hm . Hm .

1:00:12That made me realize , wow , our routines

1:00:15, like pressing my freezing feet

1:00:17against Édouard when I fall asleep , or

1:00:19that little coffee in the machine ,

1:00:22taking our little coffee in the morning

1:00:24. But that’s it , when he’s away ,

1:00:29that’s what I miss the most .

1:00:33Why aren't compromises necessarily the

1:00:36hallmark of a happy couple ? Compromises

1:00:40kill love . It's been said . It's been

1:00:43said . Now , I know we work a lot on

1:00:46compromise and I’m not going to make

1:00:48any friends here , but compromise means

1:00:51taking away the vitality . For example ,

1:00:54for Christmas , we're going to , uh ,

1:00:56we're going to my parents ' . No , we're

1:00:58going to my parents ' . Fine , okay ,

1:01:03I’ll go , but I’ll feel like I’m

1:01:04getting the short end of the stick all

1:01:06Christmas . I’ll wish I was at my

1:01:09parents ' house , and on top of that ,

1:01:10I’ll make you pay for it later , and I

1:01:12won’t be fully present . So we'll do

1:01:14Christmas together at your parents ' ,

1:01:16but I won't be joyful , I won't be open ,

1:01:18I won't be expansive , I'll be

1:01:20half-absent , telling myself I'm losing

1:01:22out .

1:01:23Yeah . And that next time it'll be my

1:01:24turn , and we'll end up in a power

1:01:26struggle . Don't think about compromise ,

1:01:31think about solutions that will bring

1:01:32more life for everyone . For example ,

1:01:36great , we'll do Christmas at your

1:01:37parents ' and we'll really be there .

1:01:39It’ll be amazing because I’m there ,

1:01:40because I’m there with my joy . And

1:01:43we're organizing a family reunion in

1:01:45mid-February like that , because for me ,

1:01:47it's important to see my people . And

1:01:51compromise prevents us from being

1:01:52creative . Compromise takes away from

1:01:55life , drains energy , builds resentment ,

1:01:57strengthens power struggles , and keeps

1:02:00us from finding the third way . Yeah ,

1:02:03it's completely stupid . But it's

1:02:05because we've also glorified the idea

1:02:06of sacrifice . Yes , because we've

1:02:08glorified the idea of sacrifice . And a

1:02:10relationship is work , yes , but it's

1:02:12work in the light , it's work in joy ,

1:02:14it's work that's actually fun . Uh , and

1:02:17of course there will be difficult

1:02:19conversations , and of course we will

1:02:20experience emotions . Uh , but it's not

1:02:22work in the sense of something painful

1:02:24that we carry and drag around our whole

1:02:26lives .

1:02:27Yeah ,

1:02:27it's it's it's another word . What is

1:02:31the one conversation you think all

1:02:34couples should have ? There are several ,

1:02:42but perhaps one that would be

1:02:44fundamental would be , uh , how could we ,

1:02:50in your opinion , strengthen the quality

1:02:52of our relationship ? And you see ,

1:02:57having that , uh , how can we put more ,

1:02:59more life into this life ? How can we ,

1:03:02uh , what would that be for you ? Uh , how

1:03:06can we place ourselves not at the

1:03:07service of each other , but at the

1:03:09service of the relationship ? Actually ,

1:03:12the problem with everything in the

1:03:13world and therapy surrounding couples

1:03:15is that we're in an individualistic

1:03:16paradigm where there's you and there's

1:03:18me , and we don't see this third life in

1:03:19the relationship enough .

1:03:22How can I place myself at the service

1:03:23of the relationship ? Not of you . You

1:03:26are also going to place yourself at the

1:03:28service of the relationship , and

1:03:29together we will uphold something that

1:03:31will carry us , that will elevate us .

1:03:34It's , you see , it's a different

1:03:35paradigm .

1:03:36Yeah . Yeah . As you say so well , it's

1:03:39not necessarily thinking about yourself

1:03:41, but also not just thinking about the

1:03:43other , but thinking about what is being

1:03:45created in this relationship , in this

1:03:47duo , and focusing on that relationship .

1:03:50That's why , by the way , I created a

1:03:52school for couples therapists , because

1:03:53it's not the same job to be an

1:03:55individual therapist in the

1:03:56individualistic paradigm as it is to be

1:03:58a therapist in the relational paradigm .

1:04:00Hm . Uh , and we still lack people who

1:04:03have that perspective . Uh , we aren't

1:04:06very well equipped yet , we're changing

1:04:08things . To finish , I'm going to share a

1:04:10question from a subscriber .

1:04:11Yes .

1:04:12It was hard to choose from the various

1:04:14questions that kept coming back . But ,

1:04:16there you go , I'll share Claire's . Are

1:04:19we forced to repeat our family and

1:04:21parental patterns ? And it's true that

1:04:25to support those words , we really grow

1:04:28up with the idea that we are going to

1:04:30reproduce the love we knew , that well ,

1:04:33there's a kind of fear that follows us ,

1:04:36of reproducing the family pattern . So ,

1:04:39what is the reality ? We aren't forced

1:04:43to . The fact is that if we don't deal

1:04:46with it , it will take hold of us

1:04:49because we took mental snapshots ,

1:04:51because we have that famous stencil ,

1:04:53because we watched people interact and

1:04:56thought , " Oh , okay . " So when people are

1:04:59a couple , you have to act like this ,

1:05:00you have to endure that , you have to

1:05:02accept that , you have to say that , you

1:05:04have to okay , that's our school , that's

1:05:05our school of relationships . " So it was

1:05:08more or less rotten .

1:05:09H

1:05:09uh when I see an adult shouting at a

1:05:14child or punishing a child , I tell

1:05:17myself , " Okay , so what the child is

1:05:20learning is that if you don't get what

1:05:23you want from me , you can shout at me .

1:05:26" " Okay ? " Well , they're going to do

1:05:28that to their partner . It's and so we

1:05:31aren't forced to , but we are imprinted ,

1:05:35we are influenced .

1:05:36We are influenced . We are impacted , and

1:05:38it's up to us to design the relational

1:05:41being we want to be . It requires

1:05:44rolling up our sleeves , it requires

1:05:46learning , it requires moving because if

1:05:49we do nothing , it's going to

1:05:54turn against us . Well , of course .

1:05:57Thank you very much , Florentine ,

1:05:59for sharing all of that with us ,

1:06:01and for diagnosing me as well , so to

1:06:04speak . But I'm half-joking , although

1:06:07it's true that it's a very useful tool ,

1:06:09really . I find attachment styles help

1:06:11to understand oneself better , to

1:06:13understand the other better , and to

1:06:15understand the relationship we're

1:06:16talking about , the dynamic ; at least

1:06:18it's a tool that doesn't focus only on

1:06:20oneself , and that's a bit of the risk

1:06:22today with what exists and is shared so

1:06:24much on social media . So , there you go ,

1:06:26I'm really happy that we were able to

1:06:28dig into this with you and that . I hope

1:06:30it will be able to help the people

1:06:31listening to us . If they ever want to

1:06:33know more about you , about what you do ,

1:06:35or what you write , where should we

1:06:37direct them ?

1:06:38I am L'Espace du Couple everywhere :

1:06:40Insta , TikTok , everywhere . My website ,

1:06:42L'Espace du Couple . I'll put that in

1:06:46the episode notes , and I’d like to

1:06:49mention that we have a series coming

1:06:52soon together on YouTube , on the France

1:06:55Inter channel , where Florentine will

1:06:58answer my questions for the bachelor

1:07:01column debrief . So , feel free to check

1:07:04that out as well to learn more . We dig

1:07:07into a lot of really interesting topics

1:07:09.

1:07:09Yeah , it was great . Thank you for the

1:07:10invitation , Louise .

1:07:11Thank you very much . See you very soon .

1:07:13See you soon .