Full transcript
0:00At Phantom Financial, we believe that
0:02sharing another person's story is a
0:04privilege. [music]
0:05The people inspiring and activating
0:07others, role modeling what's possible,
0:09[music] solving problems today, and
0:11building for a better tomorrow. Who is
0:13relevant is subjective. But what if we
0:16turn the dial, leaning into the
0:18courageous leaders who quietly drive
0:20positive change? This is relevant, where
0:22[music] leaders, creators, and change
0:25makers share the ideas shaping business,
0:27[music] culture, and the world. one
0:29conversation at a time.
0:33In this episode, I met with Aaron Corey,
0:36CEO of Canada Infrastructure Bank, an
0:39institution that mobilizes over 40
0:41billion annually on behalf of the
0:43federal government to build a better
0:45Canada. Aaron works where finance,
0:47community partnership, and long-term
0:49delivery intersect [music]
0:51from resilient grids to indigenous
0:53infrastructure priorities. We discuss
0:55how financing partnerships [music] and
0:57practical activation turn long range
0:59plans into durable community benefits.
1:03The infrastructure bank considers how
1:05they invest with taxpayer dollars to
1:07ensure we are building a country for the
1:09next h 100red years rather than the next
1:11elected four. We dig into what it really
1:14takes to move big projects from concept
1:16and community impact alignment [music]
1:18and partnership. This is relevant where
1:22people are discovered. and thank you for
1:23[music] joining me
1:32today. I'm with Aaron Corey, CEO of
1:35Canada Infrastructure Bank. We're
1:37catching up on what it is the bank is
1:39doing and talking about Aaron's career.
1:41So Aaron, let's walk. We're here at UFT
1:45at the St. George campus because this
1:48has been a big project for the Canada
1:50Infrastructure Bank. tell me what you're
1:52involved with.
1:53>> So maybe I'll start just a little bit
1:55about the bank. The CIB is a is a crown
1:58corporation. Federal government created
1:59us in 2017 with this idea that uh we
2:03have a lot we need to build in this
2:04country. Uh we have a significant
2:06deficit in infrastructure and in
2:08particular in in the infrastructure we
2:10need in the future which is both
2:12resilient, cleaner and economically
2:16productive.
2:16>> Okay.
2:17>> So we are an investor. We're uh not like
2:20other parts of government who give
2:21grants. We actually make loans or equity
2:23investments. We're sort of between a
2:25commercial lender and a private equity
2:28firm.
2:28>> Okay.
2:29>> We made a loan to the U of
2:32uh 5 years ago, four years ago to do a
2:36huge energy retrofit project of this
2:38campus. You can see the buildings around
2:40us. Lots of them are old and beautiful.
2:41>> Of course,
2:42>> that also means they're highly energy
2:44inefficient.
2:44>> Yep.
2:45>> Highly expensive to run. windows,
2:47oiling, back heating,
2:49>> all of the above. And so the idea that
2:51UFC had, they they have a plan to make
2:54their campus net zero over the long
2:56term, which is both, as I said, good for
2:59uh emissions profile also makes a lot of
3:02sense economically because they save a
3:04lot of money on energy as they improve
3:06the energy efficiency of the campus. So,
3:07our investment is about getting off of
3:10gas boilers and switching to uh things
3:13like uh ground source heat pumps and uh
3:17energy recycling in a lot of the
3:19buildings. And it's a huge program
3:21across campus. In fact, in this ground
3:22where we're walking underneath our feet,
3:24there is a part of that installation in
3:26a parking lot underneath our feet. And
3:28it's feeding many of these buildings
3:30with cleaner energy and uh UFT pays us
3:33back out of the savings that they see in
3:36energy. So this is kind of a classic
3:37example of how our investments work.
3:42>> I joined Ventum because I was looking
3:44[music] for a firm that was independent,
3:47entrepreneurial and allowed you to be
3:49your very [music] best self at work.
3:51>> I was with them previously
3:54and came [music] back because it felt
3:56like a family to me and I haven't been
3:58able to replicate that culture [music]
3:59really anywhere else. It's been amazing
4:01energy so far and great camaraderie
4:03amongst our team and there's a real
4:05sense of teamwork when [music] which in
4:07turn creates a highly collaborative and
4:09intellectually stimulating work
4:10environment. I'm excited about working
4:12in an [music] organization that has a
4:14commitment to a service culture enabled
4:16by empowering people, continuous [music]
4:19improvement and process re-engineering.
4:21>> Ventum is a leading independent company
4:23with an exciting future. We have a very
4:25[music] strong platform. someone would
4:28like to join Ventm because of the firm's
4:30commitment to enhancing not only the
4:32experience of their [music] employees
4:33but also the experience of their
4:34clients.
4:35>> We distinctly and passionately believe
4:38that if we give our investment advisors,
4:42our frontline capital markets
4:44professionals [music]
4:45the tools and the resources that they
4:47need that they will take care of our
4:48[music] mutual end client.
4:50>> Turning up for people. This is Ventum.
5:07So the Canada Infrastructure Bank is is
5:10relatively new 2017. Um previously you
5:13were with the Ontario Infrastructure
5:15Bank. Was that also a new initiative for
5:17the provincial government?
5:18>> It was. Yeah. The Infrastructure Ontario
5:20that one's called. It was started in
5:222005.
5:23>> Okay. Okay. I went there in 2012, so I
5:25was still pretty young. Um, and uh, so
5:27yes, I've done I I had left the I was in
5:29the private sector for 15 years, but now
5:31I've done these two sort of within
5:33government startups of both our crown
5:35corporations or agencies, so a bit
5:37outside of government, but sort of right
5:39on the border of public and private.
5:41>> So tell me about who who were you
5:43working with in Ontario at that time.
5:45>> So I started that work um, as I said in
5:502012. it was uh the Liberal government
5:53so the premier win at the time and the
5:56focus of infrastructure Ontario is much
5:57more on the infrastructure that the
5:58province runs which if you think about
6:00it hospitals hospitals number one
6:03>> highways transit uh would be second and
6:06then you have courts jails uh that sort
6:09of thing college buildings would also be
6:11in that category so that's the type of
6:12infrastructure that the
6:14>> province oversees if you think about so
6:16that was our main focus and really
6:18>> there the job was about how to deliver
6:20those projects better. So we were less
6:22of a bank or a financial institution,
6:24more of a project delivery. So that was
6:26all about how do you contract better for
6:29projects and if it you know if you know
6:30the history of Ontario, we had a
6:32terrible um track record of getting
6:35hospitals built on time and on budget in
6:38the late '9s and it it basically led to
6:40us stopping building for a decade or so.
6:42And so when infrastructure Ontario was
6:44created, we the idea was healthcare we
6:47we need to grow. Our population is aging
6:49and growing. We need more hospitals, but
6:50we need a different way to do it. So, we
6:52were created with the idea of bringing
6:54really good project man contracting and
6:56project management skills to that. And
6:58it and it's worked. If you look around,
7:00you and I live here in Toronto. Look
7:01around at Humber Valley if you know that
7:03hospital or McKenzie or Michael Garren
7:06had been a lot of build
7:07>> and all of those were projects while I
7:09was at infrastructure Ontario that we
7:10did.
7:11>> And then I came when I came to the
7:12federal level, it's a little different
7:14now. It's about the infrastructure of
7:15national scale. Um, so, so I'm working
7:17on different types of infrastructure,
7:18but the same idea.
7:20>> So, thinking that the Ontario mandate
7:23would be more of a healthy people,
7:25healthy economy, better longevity,
7:28federal government, a little bit more of
7:30a focus on I think we had uh clean
7:33energy,
7:34>> uh, greening of space, broadband, rail
7:36and transit.
7:37>> You've done your homework. I like those.
7:38I was I have to say those things and you
7:40do it for me. That's good.
7:41>> Uh, so a little bit of a bigger, wider
7:43stroke across the country. And if there
7:45is I think if I've done my homework
7:48properly, there's a project happening in
7:49every province. Is that correct?
7:51>> Every province and territory and every
7:52one of those uh sectors that you
7:55described. We I was in PEI
7:59uh last week.
8:00>> Okay.
8:00>> Where we were groundbreaking on an
8:03energy project there and that's the last
8:05province or territory that I've visited.
8:06We have a couple of projects in PEI now.
8:08Broadband project and this really cool
8:10energy project. And so from there to
8:12Nunovat to British Columbia. Yes. all
8:14parts in between.
8:15>> Okay. So, I was interested that there
8:17was actually because it's something
8:18that's become part of our politics at
8:20the moment of that our provinces are
8:22working a little bit better together and
8:24that there was an energy relationship
8:26now between Nova Scotia and New
8:27Brunswick. Do you want to tell me about
8:28that?
8:28>> Yeah. Well, one of the things that we
8:30need desperately in this country is more
8:33uh a more interconnected
8:34>> cohesive
8:35>> cohesive trans in lots of things in our
8:37transportation, but for sure in our
8:38energy and our electricity grid. Not
8:41surprisingly, you know, like you and I
8:43live in Ontario, you have Ontario Hydro
8:44or BC Hydro, Hydro Quebec. There's these
8:46provincial utilities that have
8:48historically been the supplier of the
8:50transmission grid. And so, they don't
8:53connect really well. And the way our
8:56energy world is changing, given how much
8:59electricity we need in the future, how
9:00much cleaner we need, like we need to
9:01shut coal plants and move off of gas and
9:03move towards cleaner forms of
9:04electricity. The challenge is it's not
9:06always windy. So, in a certain part of
9:09the country, so you need better grits to
9:10that gap when the energy source hasn't
9:12been harnessed.
9:13>> Hasn't been harnessed. And so grids, you
9:15know, transmission, not just like this,
9:17but interconnected transmission is
9:18really important. So that's something
9:20that's a theme for us across the
9:21country. And the first big project like
9:23that we're doing connects Nova Scotia
9:25and New Brunswick. It's a new intertie.
9:27And again, it's not that they haven't
9:28been connected, but they aren't
9:29sufficiently uh interwoven their two
9:32grids. And that's what this is meant to
9:33do. And what's really cool about that
9:35project is it's owned jointly by Nova
9:38Scotia Power.
9:38>> Mhm.
9:40the CIB, we're an equity owner of that
9:42project. And the 13 McMahon communities,
9:45so all of the indigenous communities,
9:46there's 13 of them in Nova Scotia, they
9:48pulled together and they have an equity
9:49stake. So the three of us are it's in
9:52it's in design phase right now and
9:54construction will start soon, but we're
9:55building this new power line.
9:57>> So when you mention that, I would think
9:59that the indigenous people of Canada
10:01would be probably forefront. a lot of
10:03the initiatives that you're working on
10:05because our first of all our country is
10:07so large but a lot of it is mineralbased
10:09resource-based and that would touch some
10:11of their special lands and how has that
10:14communication or how is it that CIB
10:16works with indigenous people do you have
10:18a distinct team to be sure that the
10:20needs are recognized
10:22>> well I will start by saying you asked a
10:24little bit what was surprising about
10:26coming to work in the public sector or
10:27what I learned um for sure the biggest
10:30the most eyeopening experience
10:32experience for me in this job at at the
10:34Canada Infrastructure Bank has been a
10:37greater appreciation for and connection
10:39to the indigenous people in this
10:41country. It's the biggest privilege I
10:43have in the job and it's the most
10:44exciting or most gratifying part of the
10:46job because you're absolutely right. A
10:49lot of our work um is in partnership
10:51with or to the benefit of communities
10:54and and I'll talk about it in two ways.
10:56So first the CIB has a program we call
10:58it our indigenous community
11:00infrastructure program. So if you think
11:01that we have infrastructure gaps here in
11:03Toronto, transit that doesn't work so
11:06well and roads that aren't always in
11:08great condition and electricity and
11:10energy needs like we're sitting on this
11:12campus. Imagine what it's like in our
11:14indigenous communities,
11:16>> drinking water that clean unreliable or
11:20they're on heavy fuel oil or diesel
11:22that's getting trucked in or flown into
11:24their communities and it's expensive and
11:26dirty and so so our indigenous
11:28infrastructure initiative the idea is we
11:30will lend money to indigenous
11:32communities and partner with them to get
11:34infrastructure built in their
11:35communities. So, we've we've done
11:37projects as small as a, you know, a a
11:39wastewater treatment plant to service 80
11:41homes because the community needs to be
11:44able to build homes and they can't
11:45without water, sewers,
11:47>> of course, removal.
11:48>> So, so we've done projects like that or
11:51additions to reserve where they've
11:52wanted to put new streets and broadband
11:55and build a new subdivision almost
11:57within their communities. So, we have a
11:59separate team that does that work. They
12:01work with First Nations and Matei and
12:03Inuit communities to identify their
12:05needs. each community's needs are a bit
12:06different and so we're building so we
12:08have loans to dozens of communities
12:10across the country and many more to come
12:13to do that. On the other hand, for the
12:16large scale infrastructure we're
12:18building in this country, especially
12:20linear infrastructure, roads, uh,
12:23transmission lines, as we were talking
12:25about, rail, heart,
12:26>> as lots of indigenous leaders tell me,
12:28there's no infrastructure like that in
12:30this country that doesn't go through
12:31indigenous territory or land. Like
12:32there's just that's not possible given
12:34the vastness of our country and given
12:36the vastness of indigenous people's
12:38claims uh to land across our country. So
12:41when we're doing major projects like
12:42that, like the transmission project
12:44between Nova Scotia and New Brunswick,
12:46it's just natural that they're going to
12:47have a seat at the table and and not
12:50just a seat at the table, but
12:51increasingly they want an economic stake
12:53and they want to be full participants in
12:55the project, which is why we've got this
12:57program where we'll
12:58>> lend them some money so they can buy
13:00equity in the project. Then they pay us
13:02back out of the out of the returns of
13:04the project so that eventually their
13:06loan dust is repaid and they're owner of
13:08the asset. Our biggest focus is this.
13:12There are our infrastructure needs
13:14greatly exceed our ability to pay for
13:16them. You got to start from there. It's
13:17like always the first step in giving
13:19help is like knowing you have a problem.
13:21We can't afford all the stuff we want.
13:23So you got to start there. And once you
13:25do, you realize the only way we can
13:26build the energy grid, the port
13:29infrastructure to be more better trading
13:31country with lots of people beyond just
13:33the United States, we need to be able to
13:34trade globally. Um to be able to move
13:36with people and goods quickly, you know.
13:39for the infrastructure we need to have a
13:40high performing economy in a clean and
13:43transitioning world. We need to invest
13:45more than we ever have before. We can't
13:47afford that. We can't just raise taxes
13:48enough to pay for it all
13:49>> of course.
13:50>> So once you believe that you said the
13:51next step is you have to know that means
13:53we need the private sector to also be
13:55investing in these projects. And that's
13:58great but the private sector their job
14:01as financial investors is to make
14:02investments that make money for their
14:04>> people their stakeholders. They're
14:05stakeholders. They're shareholders or
14:07and infrastructure
14:09projects. The problem they have is they
14:11take a long time to build. They take a
14:13really long time to pay back and they
14:15come with a lot of risk. So if you build
14:17I don't know a port um to expand trade
14:21to Asia.
14:22>> Okay. So tell me first of all, how long
14:24would a port take to build? Like I'm
14:25going to assume 10 years.
14:26>> You're going to start to finish that's
14:27probably true. But if you but even just
14:29in construction, we say you have your
14:31permits and your money already, it's
14:33still five or six years to build.
14:34>> Yeah. Um, and now traffic. So now you've
14:37built it. It's kind of we often at the
14:39CIB talk about the build it and they
14:41will come problem. It's the Field of
14:42Dreams I think is the movie. But the
14:44idea is you got to build the
14:45infrastructure before you're going to
14:46really start to see the benefits. And so
14:48you've invested that money and now you
14:50have to ramp up traffic and people have
14:52to change their shipping patterns. New
14:55businesses will you hope like the theory
14:57is um they will have more access to
14:59markets. they'll be able to grow. Some
15:01some factory in Edmonton will be able to
15:05double its capacity because the port of
15:06Prince Roert on the west coast has been
15:08expanded and it's now available and they
15:10can get to more markets in Asia and so
15:11they grow.
15:12>> But that chain uh a has lots of risk to
15:16it. Global economy, you know, we have a
15:18financial crisis like 2008. That factory
15:20in Edmonton is not expanding and you've
15:21built the port with no traffic. So
15:23there's risk and there's incredibly long
15:25time frames. So the private sector on it
15:28own can't do that. Y
15:29>> so what the CIB does are we would become
15:32a slice of the financing for that
15:34project
15:35>> and the idea is if we can put in just
15:37enough money not as a grant which is how
15:39government would traditionally
15:40participate but as a loan
15:42>> but a risk-taking loan a loan that no
15:44one else would make. Uh all of our loans
15:46are are bad loans
15:48>> from the perspective of a bank or a life
15:51co or a or a pension fund. uh at least
15:54at first they're above what I mean by
15:57bad is they're above market risk sure
15:59>> for below market returns so we're
16:00putting in our money either and taking
16:02more risk than anyone else would or
16:03we're doing it at a lower interest rate
16:04than anyone else would or some combo of
16:06those things with the idea if we can
16:08provide a trunch of that
16:09>> the private sector can do the rest
16:11>> so you are derisking it ultimately for
16:13the private sector to participate you're
16:15the first one in
16:16>> that is the idea
16:17>> first mover
16:17>> and by doing that we hope that that
16:20expands the pie of how much stuff in
16:23total we can build and there's a reason
16:25as you were listing our infrastructure
16:27categories that the C does you'll note
16:30like we don't invest in I don't know
16:32public schools is that infrastructure
16:34for sure is it stuff we need do we need
16:35to invest in our schools I think so you
16:37and I our kids went to the safe school
16:39it's a pretty old school
16:40>> it is
16:40>> it could use refreshing um the idea is
16:43if what we do our job well and we can
16:45crowd more private capital into the
16:47places where private capital can go
16:49energy or ports um then that'll save our
16:53taxpayers money, the truly public money
16:55to put into schools and to hospitals and
16:57to the things that don't earn a return
16:59and there is no private capital for
17:00those. So, we're trying to grow the pie
17:03by crowding private capital into those
17:05types of projects.
17:15So, Prime Minister Carney has just
17:18released his big projects list and I
17:21would think that that order lands right
17:23on your desk. So it is a really exciting
17:27time to be working in infrastructure
17:28just given um the focus uh that I think
17:33the whole country has now on how great
17:36our needs are to invest and certainly
17:39having a prime minister and a government
17:41now that are that have made it a
17:42priority is is exciting the major
17:45projects office they've created which is
17:47meant to be sort of the clearing house
17:49the central point for getting some of
17:51these large projects unstuck
17:55um when it was announced, which is a
17:56couple of weeks ago, it talked about one
17:59of the central things that was going to
18:00happen is bringing government financing
18:03to the table, including the CIB. So,
18:05yes, you're you're exactly right that we
18:07are one of the tools, not the only one,
18:09but we're one of the tools in the
18:10government's toolkit to try and unstick
18:13these projects along with, you know,
18:15streamlining regulatory processes and
18:17getting projects approved faster. But
18:18part of the solution, as we were talking
18:20about, to many of these projects is to
18:21have just a slice of risk-taking
18:24financing that allows the rest of the
18:26project to go. So, we've been working,
18:29the good news is uh for many of the
18:30projects that are on that initial list,
18:32we've been working on them for a while
18:35and we're in fact one of them, which is
18:36the uh new nuclear uh project here in
18:40Darlington here in Ontario, we're an
18:41investor in already. So, we're in some
18:44of them, we will be in others. Uh and as
18:46I say, it's a it's a really uh exciting
18:50moment. What I found at the CIB is
18:53when we started the first project we
18:55invested in was the REM. It's a new
18:58subway line in Montreal.
18:59>> Okay.
18:59>> Um part of it already opened and the
19:01rest will open in the next year or so.
19:03And it's a huge um uh one of the largest
19:06transit investments we've made in this
19:08country in a generation and it's being
19:09done with the private sector. It's a
19:11really interesting project and the CIB
19:14has a loan to that project over a
19:15billion dollars and it's our still our
19:17it was our first investment. It's still
19:18our largest investment and I think
19:21something that we've learned along the
19:22way is that there are those mega
19:24projects that this country needs me
19:25transit projects the Ontario line here
19:27in here in the city or the ram in
19:30Montreal. But if you're going to be the
19:32Canada Infrastructure Bank, you can't
19:34only do mega projects. Right. Right.
19:36like that that that makes
19:37>> there has to be smaller scale in
19:39combination with the large
19:40>> win combination. So what the I think
19:43what the good news is in our country is
19:45there are now projects going on all over
19:47the country. We have investments in
19:49Brandon Manitoba and in every territory
19:51and province as you said earlier
19:53but the thing where as a country we have
19:55struggled is in getting liftoff on some
19:58of the largest most impactful projects
20:00and that's not surprising they're the
20:01hardest ones too.
20:02>> Cumbersome.
20:03>> They're cumbersome as we say.
20:04>> Clunky expensive. Yep.
20:06>> Require lots of stakeholders. So, so the
20:08major projects office and this push of
20:10the government is really to get that
20:12class of project more unstuck because
20:14that's been where as a country you've
20:15probably struggled the most.
20:17>> So, you have access to the bigots
20:19offices in Canada, which is exciting.
20:21You probably don't think about it as
20:23someone as myself who hasn't had that
20:25experience. Who was the first prime
20:27minister you met?
20:28>> Uh, well, I started um I started in this
20:31job at the end of 2020 um in the middle
20:34of the pandemic. So, Prime Minister
20:35Trudeau was the prime minister at the
20:37time when I was hired. And so,
20:39>> and had you met him personally before
20:40that? Did you happy to know?
20:42>> I had never met him before. Uh, you
20:44know, I'm uh [snorts] I'm just I'm just
20:47a guy from a small town in Northern
20:49Ontario who likes who likes getting
20:51stuff built and kind of knows something
20:52about finance. So, no, I'm not
20:54>> I don't even know that. I I assumed you
20:56were Toronto.
20:57>> Oh, really?
20:58>> Where are you from?
20:59>> I am from a town called New Lisker,
21:01Ontario. It's
21:02>> I've not heard of it. Where is that?
21:03Some people it's northeastern Ontario.
21:05It's kind of uh halfway between North
21:07Bay and Timmans if you know your
21:09geography or
21:10>> some people have heard of Tomogy. Have
21:11you heard of Tmogy? That's a beautiful
21:14same zone.
21:15>> All right. And what can
21:16>> what brought you to Toronto? Was it
21:18university?
21:18>> I had I had I left the north to go to
21:20university and then I never went back.
21:22>> You didn't go back.
21:23>> But my point is just I wasn't planning
21:24on meeting prime ministers in my that
21:26wasn't wasn't on
21:27>> it wasn't on your vision plan.
21:29>> No, I I wasn't on my vision board. I
21:30don't have a vision board.
21:32>> Okay. So, and and now I'm guessing you
21:34travel to Ottawa fairly frequently.
21:36>> Yeah. So, we're based here in Toronto.
21:38The the CIB is our head office is here
21:39in Toronto. We have an office in Calgary
21:41and an office in Montreal,
21:43>> but our shareholder is the federal
21:44government. So, if you I have to visit
21:46my shareholder lots and so yeah, we get
21:48to go there and and work alongside
21:50elected officials. What's interesting,
21:52Debbie, about uh a crown corporation
21:54like this one and the same with
21:56Infrastructure Ontario, which I led
21:57before, is you're an arms length, like
22:00we're we're a separate entity, you know,
22:02>> you're independent of
22:03>> we're independent of, but they're still
22:04our shareholder. So you also have to
22:06stay collaborated with and it's really
22:08interesting this idea of like how do you
22:10get
22:11>> how do how are you independent yet
22:13coordinated because the reality is yes
22:15we're independent but the infrastructure
22:17needs of the country
22:20like that's a that's a question of
22:21public policy which stuff we should be
22:23building and investing in
22:25>> that is for the government to decide. So
22:28we get to work with elected officials. I
22:30get to meet people that I like the prime
22:33minister. Um and they get to set the
22:37frame. They get to say we need more
22:39electricity grids. We need more port and
22:42airport infrastructure. Whatever the
22:43that's their job and then it's our job
22:44to go make good investments.
22:46>> So that's how it works.
22:47>> So I'm guessing your Air Canada points
22:49are quite high.
22:50>> Well, they are. The one thing that's
22:54nice, like this is a really big country,
22:57but this job has given me a chance to
22:58see it in a way I never have before.
23:00I've been
23:01>> Okay, tell me.
23:02>> I've been to Nunvot. I've been to small
23:05communities on Vancouver Island. I've
23:07been to Thunder Bay to open a project
23:12that was so interesting where a bunch of
23:14First Nations communities uh built a new
23:17uh community facility that was
23:19incredible. I've been to remote parts of
23:21every part of this country and uh
23:23>> that's an incredible honor.
23:25>> It is a privilege.
23:26>> So, we won't put this on tape for sure,
23:29but maybe is there an interest in being
23:31in Ottawa?
23:33>> No, you asked me that before. No, here's
23:36the thing. I have found as I said it
23:39wasn't my career plan but I really found
23:42this idea of working on impactful or
23:48meaningful things um changed my career
23:52when I when I came to work in the
23:54broader public service which I do and I
23:57love that.
23:58>> Yeah.
23:58>> I have no interest in being an elected
24:01official. I think that's a whole other
24:03job and I think what I think
24:04>> it's difficult. There's a lot of
24:05scrutiny. there's a it's hard and also I
24:07guess what I have I think I found is a
24:11niche that's perfect for my skills
24:13because I am I'm come from a consulting
24:17a strategic background I have a strong
24:19finance background
24:21>> and and I care a lot about public impact
24:25>> but that idea that I can marry those
24:27those skills that I have my business
24:29skills with delivering stuff that's
24:31meaningful that's sort of the perfect
24:32place for me and I think you know
24:34elected official have a different job. I
24:35don't think they I get I actually get to
24:37look at spreadsheet. Yeah. I get to do
24:38math still.
24:38>> You're living in Excel.
24:40>> Exactly. And I and I like that. So I
24:42feel like I found a way to contribute in
24:44in the perfect way for me and I think
24:46that's how a lot of our our team feels.
24:48>> Do you do you get the sense with
24:50Carney's government and having working
24:52adjacent to them that this will be more
24:54of a a business focus because his
24:57background is is Brookfield. Do you see
25:00it having a little bit more of a
25:01businessesque
25:03mandate or sensibility about it?
25:06>> I mean, I do. I think what um I've had
25:10the privilege of working under two
25:12premers, you know, I mentioned when I
25:14took the premier win and then I worked
25:16under the Ford government for two years
25:18and then I under the Trudeau and now
25:20Carney administrations in Ottawa. And so
25:24what I have noticed out of that is that
25:29um first of all politics
25:33it feels one way from the outside but
25:34it's very different internally. I'm
25:36nonpartisan. I I work for whoever the
25:38government of the day is. They're my
25:39shareholder.
25:40>> And um there's way less differences in
25:42them than you might think. I find when
25:44you get into them like it it they all
25:46are there for the same reason the
25:47>> best interest of Canadian.
25:48>> They're all there fundamentally. Yeah.
25:50No one would go through the process of
25:53putting your name on a ballot if you
25:55>> weren't motivated. You might have
25:57different ideas of how to do that. Okay,
25:59fair enough. And people, reasonable
26:00people can disagree on how to make the
26:02country better or what are but they're
26:04all there for the same reason. So I have
26:06actually taken like positives from each
26:09of the four administrations I've worked
26:10under. To your direct question though,
26:13yeah, I mean there's been certainly a
26:16a shift I would say in the way that the
26:20government functions, the way they
26:21behave as my shareholder. There's a
26:24certain and it's just not one person. I
26:26don't think that's driven by the prime
26:28minister. I think it's driven by the
26:29team around him and sort of also driven
26:31by the moment we're in where we need to
26:33make investment in our country. We face
26:35an economic crisis. Like I think no
26:37matter who the government is, part of
26:38the shift is just like also reacting to
26:40the world we're in.
26:42>> We've got the US has totally changed its
26:44relationship with us and the economy is
26:46in a place that is really should be
26:48scary for all of us and I think that's
26:50led to more of a financial and business
26:53focus in Ottawa than there's been and as
26:54I said I think that's partly the people
26:56in charge but it's also partly just the
26:58moment. So with the changing of the
26:59relationships that you've seen obviously
27:01with our our US partner and now that we
27:04have a very um European focus, has that
27:08shifted who it is that you're speaking
27:09to as stakeholders who may participate
27:11in some of the projects?
27:12>> Yeah. Well, it's changed two things. I
27:14first it's changed the projects
27:15themselves, you know, like we're talking
27:16now about um energy project on the east
27:20coast. There's been a huge push towards
27:22is there a way to harness the energy of
27:25the east coast. It's windy in Nova
27:27Scotland and
27:29>> they have abundant access to lots of
27:31different resources. Can you turn those
27:33into for instance uh clean fuel like a
27:36hydrogen that you could help Germany
27:38solve its energy crisis because
27:40>> sure is relying on Russia,
27:41>> right? So there's been changes in the
27:43projects given and and definitely
27:45changes in who the investors are to
27:46answer your question. So, like the
27:47people we're seeing that are
27:48co-investing with us in projects,
27:50there's definitely been a broadening of
27:52that and a shift towards, uh, partners
27:54who haven't been as active in Canada,
27:57uh, maybe coming back and looking again.
27:58I think the
28:01>> challenges we've had of building big
28:02stuff in this country over the last
28:04couple of decades. When if you go talk
28:05to a infrastructure investor else
28:08elsewhere in the world, they say, "We
28:09love Canada. It's democratic rule of
28:13law. We sign a contract, it gets
28:15honored." like there's these are things
28:17we all take for granted that they don't
28:20>> but they say but
28:22>> it takes 20 years to get a permit and
28:24approval. We don't know how to deal with
28:26indigenous communities. It's too hard.
28:28>> Right?
28:28>> So a lot of them have even though they
28:30love the fundamentals of Canada at some
28:32point they abandon it as too
28:35complicated, too challenging.
28:38And so that's the thing we have to fix.
28:39And I think what's happening now with
28:42the government, things like this major
28:43project office, all of that I think is
28:45also meant to be signals to the world
28:46that like we are really back in the
28:49business of trying to build big things.
28:51And what I'm seeing is uh there's a ton
28:54of interest in that from investors
28:56around the world. [music]
28:57We can [singing] walk this road
29:00till our days grow old.
29:04In this [music and singing] life we've
29:05built together
29:08and we just beun.
29:11The best [music] is still yet to come.
29:17>> Better health [music] is a lifelong
29:19journey. Choose the right healthcare
29:21partner. Medan.
29:25[music]
29:26So do you see CIB off ultimately being a
29:30bridge that this starts to be the
29:33genesis of how it is that we bring
29:36Canada and the opportunity of Canada to
29:38other nations globally?
29:41>> Well, I think we're a tool in that. I
29:44wouldn't be I think the way that we
29:47always think of the CIB is
29:48>> you're building bridges. You're not the
29:50bridge.
29:50>> We're not the bridge. Exactly. Well,
29:51yeah, that's right. Because we don't, if
29:53you think about it, we don't own a
29:55single, we're we're an investor. Someone
29:58some entrepreneur or some private
30:00company or some provincial government or
30:02some indigenous government are the
30:04visionaries who own a project. Uh we're
30:06just a facilitator.
30:07>> We're we're uh
30:09>> you're the dealmaker.
30:10>> We we try and bring some financial
30:13acumen. It's interesting. You and I
30:14haven't talked about this, but like one
30:16of the things that's been really
30:17interesting about the CIB is we
30:19>> behave. I said earlier, you think about
30:21it as like we're like a commercial bank
30:23or a private equity firm, except we make
30:25investments that are off market.
30:27>> We try and do that as close to how the
30:30private sector would behave.
30:32>> So, we write an investment memo. Looks a
30:34lot like the investment memo you would
30:35see if you worked in like you like in
30:37your right
30:38>> except there's a section in our memo
30:41that talks about the financial returns
30:42of the investment. make sure we're going
30:43to get paid back because we're
30:45responsible investors. Might be at a
30:47lower return than anyone else would
30:48want, but it's still financially sound.
30:50But then there's a different return
30:51section which is about the public
30:54benefits of the project. And we actually
30:56measure these in the same way you would
30:58measure financial return. And we model
31:00the GHT impact of the project here at
31:03uft or the economic impact of expanding
31:05a port. And so we have a few core
31:07measures. We measure um new housing
31:10starts, you know, if we're investing in
31:11water pipes underground. We measure new
31:14transit ridership and the ability to
31:16switch from cars to forms of mass
31:17transit because those are both good for
31:19the environment but also good for living
31:21because you can get to work faster and
31:22not sit in your car in traffic. It's
31:24lost productivity. So we measure these
31:26core measures and we calculate the ROI
31:29on them just like we would financially.
31:32So we really are trying to be as market
31:35and as disciplined as investors as we
31:38can. We just happen to have a different
31:39set of return metrics than most would.
31:42>> So when we hear a number of nations
31:46mentioning their vision 2030, what what
31:49would be yours Aaron?
31:52Well,
31:53really I think that our goal is to close
31:59the infrastructure gap and
32:03you have to start from this idea. If you
32:06look at investment in this country, we
32:10made incredible investment in the era
32:12from the ' 50s to the 70s. We built
32:14housing like we'd never built before. We
32:16built an electricity grid. We
32:18>> It was a boom after the Second World
32:20War.
32:20Y
32:21>> and then in the 70s we kind of stopped
32:23and if you look at like expenditure and
32:25infrastructure per GDP from the 70s till
32:29the early 2000s it was like radically
32:32too low and so that's what we're
32:34suffering from now and we all feel that
32:36in our day-to-day lives as we use aging
32:38infrastructure and I sometimes talk
32:40about that leads us to where we are now
32:41we kind of have what we this this do
32:44triple challenge or I sometimes the all
32:46at once challenge which is number one we
32:48have to rehabilitate the stuff we've
32:49that fall into disrepair over the last
32:5250 years.
32:53>> And there's a huge replacement effort.
32:55You know, we have
32:57old power plants that need to be
32:59replaced or old roads that need to be so
33:01we've got a huge just catchup job.
33:03Number one. Number two, we're a country
33:05that's experienced incredible growth and
33:07so we need to build for that. We need
33:08homes for all of the people who have
33:09come to Canada. We need uh those people
33:12to be able to move around and goods to
33:14move. Um, and then third, we have a
33:18rapidly transitioning global economy and
33:20certainly like we have to meet there's
33:22no economy that isn't a clean economy
33:25>> by over the next 20 years or so. So,
33:27we've got to build different forms of
33:30energy and we've got to take all of
33:31these buildings like look we walk around
33:33all these beautiful buildings. Someone
33:34said a cool thing to me like if you look
33:37you are looking at the skyline of
33:38Toronto
33:39>> 80% of we have this goal being net zero
33:41by 2050, right? 80% of the buildings
33:44that will be standing in 2050 we're
33:46looking at like they're not going
33:47anywhere. All of this built landscape.
33:50>> All of these buildings need to be energy
33:52efficient.
33:53>> Mhm.
33:53>> So this all at once challenge is
33:55rehabilitate the stuff we didn't have.
33:57Build for growth. Build for clean. And
33:59there's no way to do that if we don't
34:02invest differently. So you asked about
34:03my vision 2030. It's more of a vision
34:062050 for me because it's really about
34:08how do we build an economy that works?
34:11How do we do that in a clean and
34:12sustainable and resilient way? Um, and
34:15how do we do all of that in a context
34:17where we also just have to like spend
34:18just to keep up?
34:19>> Of course,
34:20>> the only way to do that is to expand the
34:22total pie, get more money crowded into
34:25the types of infrastructure we need.
34:27>> So, you had some time in your education
34:30in Europe. You were in Seattle grab and
34:33were you in my life?
34:34>> Was it? It was.
34:35>> Okay. So, I want to know more about
34:37that. Were you were you bilingual?
34:40>> Ah, so yes. And it's funny, I uh I grew
34:42as where I grew up, you asked. It's
34:44right on the border of Ontario and
34:45Quebec. It's kind of a
34:486040 or 2/3 oneird English. So I'm in
34:51I'm English by background, but my town
34:53was very French. I did French immersion
34:55growing up, but I was more importantly
34:56than doing you're from Toronto. You you
34:58might have done that too. But the
35:00difference is I was immersed. So I was
35:02living it. So my hockey team was half
35:04English and half French. My friends were
35:05a real mix, my neighbors.
35:07>> And so I grew up in that environment. um
35:09to go to INSEAD you have to speak two
35:11languages and English has to be one of
35:12them but the other can be anything so
35:14there's people there who speak I don't
35:15know Gaelic in English or or German and
35:18English so and to graduate you need to
35:20speak three languages it's a very
35:21international school but again French
35:23isn't one of them it happened to be one
35:24for me so I I have been bilingual my
35:27whole life when I working in this job
35:29it's really important it that's a big
35:31part of our country functions in French
35:33and so I speak both languages and I get
35:35to use it here I will say um my French
35:38conversationally is good. Um, when I
35:41write emails, I have to definitely like
35:43triple spell check because my grammar's
35:44gotten a little shaky in the many
35:46decades since elementary school.
35:48>> So, tell me what was it about NCAAD that
35:50was so impactful for you?
35:51>> Well, I think it's just the combination
35:53of uh being
35:56there's lots of international schools.
35:58Rottman has lots of international
35:59students, but INSEAD like is an
36:01international school by which I mean I
36:03think 8% of the students who go there
36:04are from France. There's more Brits
36:05there than French or more Germans than
36:07French. There's almost as many
36:08Canadians. Like it's really a global
36:11pool of, you know, 5 to 10% of people
36:14from 30 different countries around the
36:16world. And and so you get just an
36:19incredible diversity of
36:21>> people and minds and uh and then you
36:24drop them all in the beautiful French
36:26countryside. Like what could they get
36:27more perfect than that?
36:28>> What could go wrong? It was pretty
36:30great. And uh and to me uh you and I
36:32went to the same undergrad and I studied
36:34business there and then I worked in
36:36consulting for a few years and I went
36:37back to do an MBA. And when I went back
36:39to school I was very
36:43uh
36:44cynical about what I was going to get
36:46like I already did the HBA program at
36:48Western. I worked I what do I need an
36:50MBA for? And I was mostly going for like
36:52a extended vacation and uh travel see
36:56some of Europe and it would be good for
36:58promotion at work or something. And what
36:59I found when I got like that was so
37:01wrong because the first week I was
37:04there, we did a case
37:05>> that I had done in undergrad. Same case
37:07I started reading. I was like, "Oh
37:09>> I've done this seen this before. Uh this
37:10is this is exactly what I was worried
37:12about." And then I went to class and I
37:13was like, "Oh my god, I I got something
37:16totally different out of this than I
37:17this conversation was super
37:19illuminating. Uh and what it taught me
37:21was if I did that same case a third time
37:23and a fourth time and a fifth time with
37:25different people, I'd probably get
37:26something out of it each time." So uh
37:28amazing it was a really good it was a
37:30such a great thing to have happen to me
37:32my first week where I was like oh I am
37:33going to learn a lot more
37:34>> new perspective new people new influence
37:37new conversations and so yeah it was a
37:39great educa it turned out to be not that
37:41I went I was very wrong about this but
37:44it turned out to be a great educational
37:45experience and a fantastic [music] life
37:47experience
37:47>> incredible Aaron thank you so much for
37:50your time today I've learned more about
37:52you personally than I already did know
37:54and I am thrilled about the future for
37:56the CIB [music]
37:56>> well thank You guys have been a really
37:58fun conversation. I appreciate doing it.
38:14>> [music]
38:14>> Hey,
38:20hey,
38:23[music]
38:24hey,
38:28hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.