Full transcript
0:00it starts with probably before the baby
0:04is born right we all have ideas about
0:06who should ultimately be more
0:09responsible and though a lot of lip
0:11service has paid these days to dads
0:13involvement it's sort of with a wink and
0:15a nudge because we know that mom is more
0:16important and both parents are equally
0:19important so I think the assumptions
0:21that we go into parenting with is where
0:23it all starts so it probably starts in
0:25our own childhoods even if our homes are
0:27quite a gala Terry and the world around
0:29us is not
0:32you're listening to the mindful mama
0:34podcast episode 173 today we're talking
0:37about equality at home with Darcy
0:40Lachman
0:45welcome to the mindful mama podcast here
0:48it's about becoming a less irritable
0:49more joyful parent I'm mindful mama we
0:52know that you cannot give what you do
0:54not have and when you have calm and
0:55peace within then you can give it to
0:57your children
0:58I'm your host hunter Clarke fields
1:00mindful mama mentor I help smart
1:02thoughtful parents stay calm so they can
1:04have strong connected relationships with
1:06their children
1:07I've been practicing mindfulness for
1:09over 20 years and the creator of the
1:11mindful parenting course soon to be
1:13membership and on the author of the
1:15upcoming new book raising good welcome
1:18welcome welcome so glad you are here
1:22today this is going to be a powerful
1:24conversation i am talking to darcy
1:29Lachman author of all the rage mothers
1:31fathers in the myth of equal partnership
1:33and she's a clinical psychologist and
1:35this is a really fascinating issue
1:38because we feel like sometimes we think
1:41like things have changed so much but you
1:43know if you are a woman and you feel
1:45like the drudge work of raising a family
1:47and running a household defaults to you
1:50then you're kind of right even though
1:53dads are more involved than they used to
1:56be the distribution of labor is really
1:58quite far from fair unfortunately and
2:02Darcy gives us a really comprehensive
2:03view on how gender roles are hurting
2:07mother's mental health physical health
2:10they're hurting our sex life
2:11relationships with our partners and more
2:13it's this is a really eye-opening
2:16conversation and I want you to listen
2:20for a few things that that we talked
2:22about here and you know so women do
2:25seven more hours of unpaid work than men
2:27per week and so then this adversely
2:31affects mental health physical health
2:34and our relationships with our partner
2:36and then the other big takeaway from you
2:39is that men don't often even see how
2:42their wives are doing more so this is a
2:45really
2:45powerful conversation I guarantee it's
2:48going to be catalyst for some some
2:52introspection and about you maybe your
2:54relationship and some maybes hopefully
2:56some conversations about how we can make
3:00some changes from the inside out so I
3:02can't wait for you to hear this
3:06conversation and first let me just give
3:08you a quick message about my mindful
3:12moment transformation coaching group but
3:13as of this recording I just have a few
3:15spots left and those it's funny there is
3:18this conversation in the mindful mama
3:20tribe group on Facebook which is a free
3:24group that you can join about how we
3:27know what would we be like if we were
3:29you know without all our frustration and
3:32irritation and there are questions like
3:35how do we do this and it takes it's not
3:38just one thing it takes a lot of
3:40different things to start to Shriya
3:42leash if tower our mindset our basis our
3:46habits all these different things and
3:47that is the work that we do in the
3:50mindful on the transformation coaching
3:52group and it's for people who might be
3:54new to mindfulness practice but it also
3:56might be for people who are in fact I've
3:59had a lot of women who teach it teach it
4:01to children or teach it to other people
4:04so if you're interested in you know
4:07taking where you are at your baseline
4:09and going to that next level the this
4:12falls group coaching is enrolling now
4:14just a couple spots left so check it out
4:17at mindful mama mentor calm group
4:20coaching and mindful mama mentor.com /
4:23group coaching you're welcome to hop I'm
4:25happy to hop on the phone with you and
4:27talk to you about it - just email me all
4:30right so I'm so excited for you to have
4:32this conversation about equality at home
4:36so come join me at the table as I talked
4:38to Darci Lachman
4:41Darcie thanks so much for coming on the
4:43mindful mama podcast hi hunter thank you
4:46for having me er I'm so glad to have you
4:49here and I've been reading your book all
4:52the rage with fervor I've been texting I
4:54texted a picture of it to my friends and
4:56I said you read this for buck love and
4:59and I'm so excited by it but it kept me
5:02up at night a little bit and I feel like
5:04I don't know I feel like there's so many
5:05amazing ideas in here but I thought if
5:08you don't mind I would start with this
5:10idea that I think kind of says a lot you
5:13know so you were talking about you tell
5:16the story in the book pretty early on of
5:18talking to a woman whose husband is a
5:20night person so he he stays up and so
5:23she gets up with the baby and she
5:26doesn't usually mind waking up early but
5:27sometimes she'd kind of like to write
5:30and and you know it doesn't even occur
5:34to him to ever ask if she would like to
5:36get up early and so at this point the
5:38baby's 10 months old that means for 10
5:40months month running the husband has had
5:43left it up to her to get up while with
5:45her daughter while she slept in and you
5:47ask her you say can you imagine a world
5:50in which your husband got up early with
5:53the baby every morning for 10 months
5:54running and you never once offered to
5:56relieve him and I thought that said so
6:00much right there in that story so tell
6:03us a little bit about how you got
6:04interested in this unequal division of
6:07labor you know I got interested in it
6:09through my own personal experience my
6:12husband and I are both pretty
6:13egalitarian and progressive people and
6:16we went into parenting with kind of the
6:19vague assumption that we were totally in
6:21it together and that the work would be
6:23shared
6:23it was so obvious to us that we never
6:26even bothered to discuss it as we went
6:29on in our time as parents though him
6:31pretty quickly it became obvious with
6:33our first daughter that a lot of the
6:35work defaulted to me you know as good of
6:37a father as he was you know was loving
6:39as he was as much as he adored being
6:41with our baby
6:42the work part of it wasn't something he
6:44always took notice of and somehow it was
6:46something I always did and I found
6:49myself getting increasingly frustrated
6:50and I made a lot of new mom friends at
6:53preschool once my daughter started
6:55year and I heard the same thing from all
6:57of them sort of like offhanded comments
7:00about doing all the work and I kept
7:02thinking you know this isn't the
7:02expectation that any of us went into
7:04parenting with why is it still this way
7:07and the question became a really central
7:10one of the first years of my parenting I
7:12just found myself coming up against it
7:13all the time whenever I was angry at my
7:15husband for this stuff for the not
7:16noticing kind of of what needed to
7:18happen for the assumption that I was
7:19going to take care of everything so um
7:21you know this question really really nod
7:24at me and finally I thought wait a
7:26second you know I used to be a
7:27journalist I'm a psychologist now I had
7:29gone back to school I can use my
7:30journalistic skills to really plow into
7:32this question and to figure out why
7:34we're still living this way when it
7:36wasn't what any of us wanted or expected
7:37so so I started doing research and there
7:40was so much out there I couldn't believe
7:42it
7:42sociology is an amazing field so I was
7:45really able to to look at their work to
7:47quantify what was going on in most homes
7:49and then to dig into like philosophy and
7:51anthropology and neurobiology to to
7:55figure out why we were so stuck to do ya
7:58figure out why we're so stuck in order
8:00to stop being so stuck do you make an
8:02amazing case for the stuckness because I
8:04think the thing is like we don't think
8:06we're stuck like this is this idea like
8:09we men and women in general like we have
8:11this idea that you know there's modern
8:15progressive dads and you know we share
8:18things so much more now and things like
8:21that but this idea is kind of a myth
8:26when it hits reality is what you found
8:28it's actually a conflation of two things
8:31I think is what the problem is because
8:34dads are a lot more involved with their
8:36kids than they used to be we have this
8:38idea of the modern involve father and
8:41that idea isn't wrong exactly fathers do
8:43spend a lot more time with their
8:44children than they used to and they're
8:46involved in ways that they weren't at
8:47least in the ways that we think of like
8:49the stereotypical 1950s dad but the
8:52misunderstanding seems to have been that
8:54we thought that the modern involved
8:56father was the same as the perfectly
8:58sharing co-parent and it turns out
9:01they're two very separate things and
9:03those two things never really got
9:04delineated as being separate so we go
9:07into parenting now it
9:09as you were saying with this idea that
9:10things have changed so much and while
9:12they have this other piece has kind of
9:14stayed on the outskirts of awareness you
9:17know this the fact that fathers actually
9:19have not increased the work of child
9:21care amount that they have done since
9:23the year 2000 when the percentages
9:25leveled off at about 65 35 for working
9:29mothers versus working fathers so moms
9:32and dads both working doing the same
9:34amount of work and moms are doing 65% of
9:36the childcare and dads are doing 35
9:38percent about yeah I mean though you
9:40know obviously it's estimates in every
9:41household is a little bit different but
9:43that's kind of what the time use study
9:45is from the Bureau of Labor Statistics
9:46indicate and for the book I only looked
9:49at dual earner couples I wasn't looking
9:51at stay-at-home parents because that's I
9:52feel like that's a different paradigm
9:53yeah that is a whole and so you kind of
9:56divide it into child care and then
9:59there's also sort of the housework
10:01question which is a whole other can of
10:03worms which is so interesting so let me
10:05just like give you a little background
10:06on me because for me reading this whole
10:08thing so I'm I'm s I'm in one of those
10:11unicorn couples that you you're talking
10:14about where my husband I actually did do
10:17parent equally like he spends as much
10:19time with the kids as I do like he cooks
10:22probably more dinners than I do
10:24he's neater and tidies up probably more
10:27than I do and I think you know kind of
10:30reading this I was like what you know I
10:32kind of was appreciating him but also
10:35you know wondering kind of what made him
10:37that way but also I come from a milieu
10:39or two out of two of the dads I know in
10:43our social group have changed their last
10:45names to have a hyphenated last name to
10:48other completely separate dads are the
10:50ones who cook 90% of the meals in their
10:52household so like I realize I come from
10:55a situation where I'm not your book made
10:58me made me see what's happening for most
11:01people a lot more clearly I think that I
11:04had been seeing it maybe you could kind
11:06of paint the picture for us right it's
11:08really interesting because there is a
11:09big impact of cohort effects not just
11:12generally generationally but in terms of
11:15what is going on around you so in you
11:18know you're talking about fathers taking
11:20on not just more time with their kids
11:21but so doing more of the work
11:22of running a house and I don't know if
11:24they're also paying more attention to
11:26when permission slips are due and when
11:27diapers need to be bought and when the
11:29kids need new shoes because I would
11:32wonder if a lot of that still defaults
11:33to moms but when men see other men doing
11:36more it's it's almost like contagious
11:39isn't the right word because that has a
11:41pejorative connotation but it is I guess
11:43almost contagious so Melinda Gates in
11:45her new book writes about this problem
11:47in her relationship with Bill which
11:49actually surprised me because I thought
11:50if you had like that much money you'd be
11:53kind of like spirit but spared these
11:55fights but apparently that is not the
11:56case but she notes that when Bill
11:58started at her insistence driving the
12:01kids to school some days that other
12:02fathers in the neighborhood started
12:04doing it too and she kind of thought
12:06like their wives were saying hey if Bill
12:08Gates can drive his kids to school so
12:09can you so there is you know you're
12:11talking about like seeing the dads
12:13around you're doing more there there may
12:14be some of that going on but what is
12:17more typical is that moms are like like
12:19a lot of the work to false more to the
12:21mother once children come along there's
12:23this vague assumption often when men and
12:25women are working together that women
12:27are gonna do the drudge work and this
12:28has been found true not only in the home
12:30but also in the workplace there's been
12:31some interesting studies by economists
12:33on this we kind of assume that women are
12:36gonna take care of it
12:37all of us implicitly it's so depressing
12:39like I think it was maybe you wrote in
12:41your in your story about how like when
12:44you and your husband first got together
12:46and you before you even had kids and he
12:48said oh I like vacuuming and dusting and
12:51and it was like well that's great but
12:53you know nobody likes that was like just
13:01assumed that you would take care of all
13:02the other stuff frustrating we didn't we
13:06didn't even articulate it I mean I I
13:08know I wrote about this in the book and
13:09I remember that moment when we moved in
13:11together and he said to me well I like
13:12the vacuuming and the dusting so I'll
13:14take care of that and I don't know if he
13:18was implying this or if this is just how
13:20I heard it but I think it is true you
13:22know it's like a gender dynamic like I
13:24was supposed to feel lucky that he was
13:26volunteering to do anything at all so if
13:29I you know had to then take on cleaning
13:31the kitchen in the bathroom well that
13:33was a lot more work but wasn't I
13:35and that feeling hung over the
13:38conversation you know I I don't I don't
13:41want him aligned my husband I would have
13:42to ask him and he would say no no of
13:44course I didn't mean it that way I was
13:45just you know dividing things up but for
13:48me at least implicit and that was like
13:51this idea that I should be grateful to
13:52have a man who was willing to do
13:53anything at all and you you talk about
13:55about that attitude right like it could
13:57be worse I you know I should be grateful
14:00for what it is happening that's actually
14:03an attitude that is is really kind of
14:05holding holding women back in general
14:08yeah I heard that from women so I
14:11interviewed 50 mothers for the book
14:12initially I set out to interview a
14:14hundred but after a while the interviews
14:17were so similar and even though they
14:19were each interesting in their own way
14:21every woman was telling me the same
14:23thing and I finally just said okay going
14:24to a hundred kind of pointless given and
14:26I'm you know didn't matter where in the
14:28country the women lived it didn't matter
14:29the socio-economic status it was sort of
14:31just always the same so so I stopped at
14:3450 but yeah I would hear from women you
14:36know my friends have it worse
14:38so like they'd be really passionately
14:40kind of detailing what was going on in
14:43their homes with some amount of anger
14:45and then they would say you know but
14:47this friend has it worse I know it could
14:48be worse and their husbands when they
14:50would talk to him about this would say
14:52things to them like well I do more than
14:54other dads and that was like a
14:55conversation ender often know aid it's
15:01so frustrating right so there's nothing
15:04you know and this is what you're talking
15:05about too like there's there's a sort of
15:08nothing kind of biologically right that
15:10makes us more inclined to to want to
15:13like do all the work of the household
15:15and you talk about the history and you
15:17talk about the biology but I love this
15:20study that you you brought up about the
15:23Serve strange situation childcare the
15:26strange situation research cattell Chuck
15:29Milton Cattell Chuck he how he
15:32demonstrated that these babies were six
15:35to 21 months were just as likely to be
15:38calmed by the presence of their fathers
15:39as the presence of their mothers right
15:42and and that and they did other studies
15:44talking about you know showing that
15:48mothers and fathers
15:49did not differ in any measures of
15:51responsiveness to two videos of you know
15:55understanding how how people respond to
15:59babies and things like that it's
16:01frustrating
16:02yeah like the physiological responses of
16:05new fathers and new mothers to their
16:07babies are the same in terms of heart
16:09rate skin conductance blood pressure
16:11they did these studies on maternity
16:13wards in the 70s when they first started
16:15studying fathers because fathers were
16:16not an area of interest for a very long
16:18time they still are much less of an area
16:21of interest by the way in research but
16:23what the researchers found was that
16:24while the physiological measures didn't
16:27differ between men and women what did
16:29differ was that fathers were more likely
16:31to take a step back from their babies in
16:33the presence of their spouse because of
16:36these underlying assumptions about who
16:37really matters more to the baby and you
16:41argue that that is totally cultural
16:43right yes Italy I mean yeah totally I
16:46mean it is pervasive because most
16:49cultures are patriarchy's and men do
16:52less of the work of the home and
16:53childcare in almost every society there
16:56are a couple makes the article societies
16:58where there's where that's not the case
16:59but it's not it's not the type of
17:02biology I mean obviously women are the
17:04only ones to gestate and to nurse so
17:06that sets us up for assumptions about
17:09who remains important but really after
17:12those things are are over and it's not
17:15like babies are feeding constantly when
17:17they're when they're little even though
17:18they eat a lot it sets us up for this
17:21idea that mothers are more important and
17:22mothers need to do more of the work and
17:24it's very easy to back out of the work
17:26right who doesn't want to back out of
17:27the work but not everybody can clearly
17:30yeah yeah I mean it was interesting
17:32because I was talking about this with
17:34like my mother and she was saying well
17:37you know relationship can't be totally
17:40equal because of you know because of
17:43women are nursing their babies I thought
17:45well what about same-sex couples what
17:48about people who talk things like that
17:49like this is there's actually not a big
17:52biological there can be zero biological
17:55connection and you still can have the
17:57same sort of levels of nurturing yeah
18:01yeah yeah the the studies the sort of
18:03brain studies find that the changes that
18:06are in the brain with Parenthood come
18:08with involvement with a baby not with
18:10biological relatedness to the child so
18:13the brain activity of a parent who
18:15adopts when they're with their baby is
18:16the same as a parent who has who is
18:19biologically related to the child
18:21it's like adults of our species are pro
18:24are vulnerable to the attractions of
18:26babies if we were not babies would not
18:28survive and our species would not have
18:30gone on for very long clearly so I mean
18:33it's the same like our attraction to
18:34puppies isn't even so different right we
18:36want to cuddle puppies like we're so
18:38compelled by my small helpless creatures
18:41and that's been really necessary to our
18:42survival and men and women are both
18:44compelled males and females are both
18:45compelled to take care of small
18:47vulnerable creatures and again the brain
18:49activity is the same regardless of
18:51relatedness to the kid if you are the
18:53primary caretaker so it's really primary
18:56caretaking that differentiates the
18:59integration of neural systems and things
19:01like that
19:02between parents and non-parents primary
19:04caretakers and non primary caretakers so
19:07this all this all starts when the babies
19:11when they're when every winner right
19:13away right like when if dads are not
19:17just generally taking as much time or
19:20with with the babies so tell us about
19:22tell us about how how this inequality
19:25kind of starts like in the realm of like
19:27the the individual couple you know
19:30that's a good question I you know it
19:32starts with probably before the baby is
19:37born right we all have ideas about who
19:39should ultimately bohr and be more
19:41responsible and though a lot of lip
19:43service has paid these days to dads
19:45involvement it's sort of with a wink and
19:47a nudge because we know that mom is more
19:49important and both parents are equally
19:51important so I think the assumptions
19:53that we go into parenting with is where
19:55it all starts so it probably starts in
19:58our own childhoods even if our homes are
20:00quite a gala Terry and the world around
20:01us is not girls and boys are not raised
20:04the same even when the intention is that
20:06they will be because outside factors are
20:08so influential and kids are always
20:10looking to fit into a group right to fit
20:13into their group
20:14and I don't know if you found this with
20:15your kids but my kids started very young
20:17saying things to me about the
20:19differences between boys and girls not
20:22Anatomy wise but in terms of like what
20:24they were supposed to do and what was
20:26appropriate and what was not like you
20:28know this is in the book I remember my
20:30daughter saying to me when she was
20:31really little mom you know maybe she was
20:34five boys are doctors and girls are
20:36nurses and I remember my other daughter
20:39saying to me well boys can't have long
20:41hair and you know they were kind of
20:43looking around them and trying to make
20:45distinctions to see where they fit in
20:47and those are just too like really broad
20:49examples and I don't know you know like
20:50my daughters are both in a community
20:53where moms and dads both work like we're
20:55surrounded by professionals so where
20:57this idea that boys were doctors and
20:59girls where nurses came from is so
21:00puzzling to me she she did have a male
21:03pediatrician but there were no nurses
21:04but doctors office right but even if you
21:08look at and this some of this is in the
21:10book studies in preschool classrooms
21:12where researchers are behind a window
21:13and can't be seen and they're making
21:15observations there you know things that
21:18we think about like boys don't play with
21:20dolls people discourage boys from
21:22playing with dolls but and that's kind
21:24of broad and we can change that but
21:26there are other things like boys in
21:29preschool classrooms kids between the
21:31ages of two and three boys and girls are
21:33equally as likely to push and hit and
21:35you know be aggressive basically but the
21:38teachers intervene with the boys like
21:41three times as often when they're
21:43aggressive probably because their
21:46expectations about boys and aggression
21:47are more attuned to the boys and they
21:50don't want them aggressing because we
21:52think the boys is more aggressive but
21:53what do the boys learn from being
21:55responded to you know kids want adult
21:57attention so it's like it reinforces the
21:59aggressive behavior so by a year later
22:01in classrooms of three to four year old
22:03boys and girls girls have become much
22:05less aggressive and boys more so because
22:08of how they were reinforced and these
22:10teachers are not necessarily gender
22:12biased they don't aren't even aware of
22:14what they're doing but again they're
22:15more interested in stopping the boys
22:17aggression because they're more worried
22:19about it and then the boys get the
22:20message they're oh we get attention when
22:22we're aggressive and girls get the
22:23message oh we get more attention when we
22:25babble for example so these way
22:28that like gender roles and and the
22:30differences between boys and girls are
22:32reinforced are so pervasive and really
22:35really hard to change because they're
22:37not conscious these teachers aren't
22:38consciously doing these things one of
22:41the books that I said you know imagine
22:42if from birth on children were separated
22:45not by gender but by right or left
22:47handedness right all the righties over
22:49here all the lefties over here that
22:51would then seem to them to become a like
22:53a really salient category right and of
22:55course that's not how we separate kids
22:57we separated them my boys and girls so
22:59that becomes such a salient category and
23:01then we we start to distinguish between
23:03the two and all these kind of artificial
23:05ways circulating hormones don't differ
23:07between boys and girls until puberty so
23:09you can't really pin it on biology well
23:12there are some in utero differences but
23:14it's really hard to say what impact
23:16those have it's fascinating I mean
23:18because I feel like I really see a lot
23:22of confirmation bias and in people
23:24around me you know like that and for the
23:26listener like this is this idea like
23:27that you kind of what you're what you
23:30are attuned to ready to see you will see
23:33and it tends to be true like if you just
23:36like if you decide to buy a Prius like
23:38you go out in the road you're like oh my
23:39gosh there are Priuses everywhere I had
23:41no idea I've never seen so many before
23:43because you weren't looking for them in
23:45the same way like if you look around the
23:46room and you say you just look for the
23:48color red you'll say oh wow there's red
23:51everywhere in my room and then if you
23:52look for the color blue you'll find blue
23:54everywhere you know so we're we wouldn't
23:56but what were primed to look for is what
23:58we tend to see and I noticed that that
24:02we do that particularly with boys and
24:04girls people making these assumptions
24:06about boys and girls versus about you
24:09know from the the sample size of their
24:11children you know and and I remember
24:13seeing you know looking at my girls who
24:16were at four so ridiculously you know
24:20energetic and just doing all the jungle
24:22gyms and all the crazy stuff and loud
24:25and I realize like these were boys
24:27someone would be saying look at how
24:31energetic boys are you know and it was
24:34just so frustrating to me this happens
24:36all the time right they do studies where
24:39a diapered baby is kind of videoed
24:42and they'll play the videos for people
24:45and say this is a little boy please
24:47describe his his personality or
24:51something and though and then they'll
24:52show the same film and say this is a
24:54girl please describe her personality and
24:56not surprisingly people are more likely
24:58to describe the boy as like strong and
25:01active and whatever you know stereotypes
25:05and when they see the same video of and
25:06but are told the baby is a girl they use
25:08they'll use completely different
25:09adjectives so we do kind of see what we
25:12expect to see yeah yeah and I'm glad
25:15that you pointed out that it's too
25:17because it's like I think that's
25:18something I mean for me I feel like you
25:20know a mindfulness practice like an
25:23awareness practice of how we're thinking
25:24can be really really helpful here to
25:27start to question our assumptions and
25:28start to be thinking more clearly but we
25:30can also just do that you know having
25:33heard what Darcy just said about this
25:37study you can start it when you know you
25:39have a thought or your friend has a
25:40thought like that you can start to
25:42question that assumption you know is
25:44that is that really true you know are we
25:46just saying though things have the way
25:50babies are cared for from birth also is
25:53impacted by their biological sex so
25:56similar studies where they watch new
25:58parents with their babies boys are more
26:00likely to be jostled and thrown about or
26:03are more frequently jaw sold and thrown
26:04about and girls receive more kind of
26:07grooming caretaking touch than boys so
26:09even like our the way our bodies are
26:12conditioned to be in the world is formed
26:15by the assumptions of gender from birth
26:17so if you say so so maybe then later
26:20boys are a little more active because
26:22they're they associate being jostled
26:25with like being in the world right so
26:27there's a lot of question you know cuz
26:30there are people you know gender or I'm
26:31sorry biological essentialists will say
26:33different differences between girls and
26:35boys and later men and women are simply
26:37biological I've even got some responses
26:39to this book with people saying well you
26:42know biologically were created for
26:43different purposes and and this is why
26:46women are the ones who pay attention to
26:49like signing permission slips and that
26:51are just so is crazy to me I mean it's a
26:54little easier to say
26:55like women breastfeed so of course
26:57they're more involved that in some way
27:00is like just probably true they're gonna
27:03be feeding more if they're nursing but
27:04to say like all this stuff that happens
27:06later on is a result of biology really
27:09does show how extreme people get in
27:11their biological determinism but all
27:14it's so it's so hazy all of it from coz
27:16from birth boys and girls are separated
27:18so distinctively yeah there's there's so
27:21many different factors in everything so
27:22then when you get to a couple right who
27:26you know the boys been socialized the
27:29man has been socialized in this way and
27:31the woman has been socialized in this
27:32other way then it kind of starts you
27:35know it's interesting because you you
27:37write in the book how you know because
27:41the woman is often starts getting up at
27:44night if she's breastfeeding then she
27:47ends up being the one who gets up at
27:49night after that and I thought oh I
27:51guess that kind of makes sense but like
27:52in my life I was like I am not
27:55breastfeeding anymore it is your turn
27:57yeah for the next like year absolutely
28:03and your husband was like oh great yeah
28:06yeah yeah that that was my with us I
28:11know my my when I wasn't nursing my kids
28:15like if I went into the room they wanted
28:18to like stay up and hang out and if my
28:20husband went in and they'd go back to
28:21sleep so that's what kind of did it for
28:23us was he was the one in the middle of
28:24the night because they went back to
28:25sleep much more easily with him and also
28:28he fell back asleep more easily than me
28:30so that worked really well but there are
28:33there is research that shows that
28:35employed mothers of preschool of
28:38children are two-and-a-half times more
28:39likely to get up in the middle of the
28:41night then employed fathers so I guess
28:45you and I were both anomalies there
28:47according to the empirical data
28:49according to that yeah and you you had
28:52some research that talked about how we
28:54perceive women's jobs as more flexible
28:57oh yeah that was so fascinating like
28:59that you know we regardless of the job
29:03we received the woman's job as being
29:05more flexible and they you had there was
29:07one where one
29:09spouse was a doctor and one was a lawyer
29:12or something like that and it was a
29:14doctor professor and then there was
29:17another where there was another couple
29:18where was a doctor and professor but who
29:20had which job was switched and they both
29:22in both cases considered the woman's job
29:25more flexible yeah I know it's an
29:27obscene Deutsch as a social psychologist
29:30who wrote a book I think I'm gonna
29:31having it all and she gives that example
29:34and she says flexibility is in the eye
29:36of the beholder and I love that line and
29:39then it was funny because I was
29:40interviewing a woman who's a NPR
29:42reporter right and clearly when you're a
29:45reporter you're on deadline and her
29:48husband was like an event planner and
29:49she started telling me how her work was
29:51more flexible and I was like really like
29:54you're on deadline I mean I know events
29:56need to be planned those are deadlines
29:57of sorts to but and she was like yeah I
30:00mean I guess when you put it that way
30:01I suppose like I'm more willing to be
30:05flexible and I you know I think that's
30:07true again like there's so many there
30:10are so many gendered assumptions about
30:12who's gonna take care of stuff girls are
30:15really raised to be as academics called
30:17communal right to be thinking of other
30:19people and their needs a good deal of
30:22the time and boys are raised to be more
30:24to have more of a sense of agency to
30:26think about their own needs and
30:28ambitions and requirements and so when
30:31we come together in couples you've got
30:33someone who was raised to be more
30:35communal and someone who was raised to
30:36be more identic and of course it's going
30:39to play out this way and I know at least
30:41for me and so I was actually living with
30:43a man I didn't see those the influence
30:47of that kind of gender difference so
30:50clearly and then and then I began to and
30:52I just saw it all over the place this
30:54has these costs right there's like a
30:56bunch of costs of this inequality not
30:58just like our own rage but actually like
31:01you write about like women are often
31:03disappointed with our partnerships
31:05there's this persistent underlying anger
31:07at our children's fathers
31:09there's dampened sexual desire and women
31:12often have fantasies of escape and in
31:15fact there's in some countries like in
31:18Japan there's fewer babies being born
31:19and now there's higher rates of
31:21infidelity also here in the United
31:23State so talk to us a little bit about
31:25some of these these costs like this is
31:27not just something that is like okay
31:31everybody's fine with it like it's
31:32actually a problem yeah there's a big
31:36cost to relationship satisfaction
31:38there's tons of data on this women who
31:42report the the division of labor in
31:44their home is unjust are like 45% less
31:48likely to say that their marriages are
31:49very happy women who feel that the
31:52division of labor and their home is
31:53undressed are also more likely to be
31:54depressed women actually take a health
31:57hit in the early years of child-rearing
31:59that men don't take there's there and
32:02probably because they're not taking the
32:04time to take care of themselves as much
32:06as they did before they had kids but men
32:08don't take that same health it also the
32:11the wage gap the gender wage gap has
32:13really thought economists are asserting
32:15now that it's more of a motherhood gap
32:16because women who don't have children
32:18earn they still earn less than men but
32:20it's not it's not nearly as substantial
32:22because women pull back at work when
32:24their children are born or they're not
32:26promoted or there are assumptions about
32:28their worth or they're not hired so
32:30their economic costs there a
32:31relationship cost their health costs
32:33both mental and physical health so it
32:37really is problematic to the division of
32:41unpaid work among heterosexual couples
32:44has been called one of the most
32:45important gender equity issues of our
32:46time after like domestic violence and I
32:51can remember with the first one is it
32:52might be the wage gap so you know we
32:56could all kind of chuckle to ourselves
32:57and say oh well that's just how it goes
32:59you know women bear more of the work oh
33:01well and you know we a lot of people do
33:03say that and this is the way that we're
33:04living but um but the cost of it I found
33:07were when I when I looked at the
33:09research found that they're actually
33:10quite quantifiable and high it makes me
33:13so frustrated and so it seems fairly
33:17obvious like that the solution a big
33:19part of the solution is for men to step
33:23up right to be saying oh okay well you
33:26know you're doing a vast majority more
33:29of all the work in the house you know I
33:32should be doing more so what why are why
33:35are men
33:36stepping up they don't often see it it
33:39was really interesting to talk to the
33:42husbands of the women that I interviewed
33:44for my book cuz while they were generous
33:46with their time and happy enough to talk
33:48to me they were so uninspired by the
33:50discussion they had like nothing to say
33:51and we're kind of like yeah I guess my
33:53wife is frustrated but I really don't
33:55think it's that big of a deal
33:57men are less likely to report that their
34:00wives do more to manage the children
34:02than women which isn't surprising so you
34:08know the part of the problem is that
34:09children create so much work that men
34:12are doing more work once their children
34:14are born so because everyone's doing
34:16more work it's very easy not to say well
34:18not not to see that while I am doing
34:20more my wife is taking on a lot more I
34:22did a I did a podcast with a dad in
34:26Australia a few days ago he has a
34:28podcast called super dad online and he's
34:31he works from home and his wife is a
34:34nurse and he started the interview with
34:36me by playing a conversation that he'd
34:39recorded with his wife he said to her he
34:41wanted to talk about this before he
34:42interviewed me with her and he said he
34:44started the conversation by saying girl
34:46you know I think we're pretty good at
34:47this we split things pretty equally and
34:48she kind of paused him and she said well
34:50you know I think it's more like 60/40
34:53and then she waited a beat and she was
34:55like actually 70/30 if I'm being really
34:57honest and this was a dad who was really
34:59engaged and pretty certain that things
35:01were going well and when he actually
35:03made time to ask his wife about it he
35:06found that her perspective was quite
35:07different but then he went on to do what
35:09I heard a lot of fathers doing in my
35:11interviews which was to say to her
35:13things like well you know your mom has
35:15really high standards so I think you got
35:17her really high standards so maybe
35:19that's why you do more because your
35:20standards are so high she kind of
35:22politely agreed I don't know how she
35:24really felt but you know she was
35:25recording the conversation and he was
35:26gonna play it on his podcast she was
35:28like yeah yeah I guess they can see that
35:29and you know he so he kind of like what
35:31men will do is say I had men say to me
35:33well it's just my wife's personality she
35:36needs to be busy all the time and it's
35:38like no she doesn't need to be busy all
35:39the time there's a lot to do around your
35:41house and you're not doing much of it
35:42and that's what she's busy all the time
35:45so it's it seems to me very easy for men
35:47to write this off
35:49they get defensive they deny their
35:52wife's experience they say well I do
35:54more than other men so men have kind of
35:56a handful of ways of really not engaging
35:59in this discussion and it makes it
36:01really hard for their wives to get
36:02through to them because he wants to
36:03spend all their time fighting it's it
36:05can be quite frustrating for women that
36:08men are so sometimes unwilling to really
36:11broaden their their perspective and look
36:13at it through their wives eyes
36:14so actually what when one thing that
36:16that that some have suggested one woman
36:20said her couples therapist told her to
36:22keep a time diary to show her husband
36:24everything that she was doing during the
36:26week and this woman reflected that it
36:27was really helpful cuz her husband
36:29looked at it was like wow I had no idea
36:30all this stuff was going on so I don't
36:34know I actually I was talking to a guy
36:35at a party this was interesting maybe
36:37about a year ago when I was still
36:38writing I was telling him about the book
36:40and he said to me he had a five year old
36:42or six year old daughter he said to me
36:44you know I'm listening you're talking
36:45I'm thinking my wife and I are pretty
36:47good about this I I think I really do a
36:48lot but then I realize you know my
36:50daughter started camp yesterday and I
36:52have no idea how that happened and right
36:55because his wife had done all the
36:56research on the camp she had done all
36:57the signups she had done all the
36:59permission slips and medical forms and
37:01blah blah blah and for him like his
37:02daughter just seamlessly started camp
37:04the day before so when he reflected he
37:07was able to go oh wait a second there
37:09there was a lot that must have gone into
37:10that that I didn't know about but anyway
37:12he was he was kind of a rarity among
37:15people that I talked to who just sort of
37:17were able to think and volunteer like oh
37:20yeah maybe this is happening so it
37:22sounds like there's certainly some
37:25conversations that need to be had even a
37:28you know even though I mean yeah I
37:29remember at some point with Bill my
37:32husband we were kind of getting into
37:34like a little pattern of that where I
37:35was doing I mean because I was a
37:37stay-at-home mom for you know awhile and
37:39where I was doing kind of all the
37:41logistical work of the things and then I
37:45said you know listen I'm doing all of
37:47these things and so we great he would
37:49take a few you know he would take piano
37:51and he would take the Shakespeare thing
37:54and you know I don't I don't know how
37:57the piano lessons kept scheduled I have
37:58no idea like it all
38:00yeah behind the scenes I mean that's one
38:03thing but I mean so what are what are
38:06some what are some things we can do I
38:08mean we obviously need to have some
38:09conversations but then sometimes men are
38:12getting defensive or denying the
38:13experience or you know well I think what
38:17you did is a really good idea to make to
38:20make certain things something like you
38:21are in charge of all the permission
38:23slips you are in charge of all the camp
38:24you are and not you but I mean right
38:26whoever whichever partner and you know
38:29something that women would say to me
38:33during interviews is well he - I'll ask
38:35him to take something on then he forgets
38:36so I have to be constantly reminding him
38:38so it's not really off my plate
38:40so I think really delineating you know
38:42this is yours and if you forget it there
38:44are consequences if something is
38:46someone's like your husband probably
38:48knows exactly how to schedule the piano
38:50classes now or whatever right and that's
38:51totally on him and you have no idea and
38:53that's great I mean the goal and this is
38:55never necessarily 5050 I don't know that
38:58that's sustainable over the course of
39:00many years of raising children I imagine
39:01things shift back and forth the goal is
39:04rather that things are not just
39:05defaulting to the mother because that's
39:07the situation where couples really find
39:08themselves in a bad place is when
39:12they've had when they have this vague
39:13idea that things are gonna be equally
39:15shared and they just default to the mom
39:17and that is what happens if you don't
39:19actually say here's everything that
39:21needs to happen and we each need to take
39:22part of it so to live them in a home
39:26where everything just does not default
39:28to the mother automatically seems to me
39:32to be kind of like goal number one
39:33rather than 5050 people can divide up
39:35stuff however they want
39:37but the couples who I spoke to who had
39:39had the most success with this were
39:41really bare-bones and logistical about
39:43it and just the way you describe with
39:44your husband and lessons yeah yeah I
39:47mean I guess like if a a wife is saying
39:50well he'll forget about or something I
39:53guess you know given the responsibility
39:56of something that you know it's not
39:57gonna be the end of the world if it
39:59doesn't happen like oh that can't be
40:02okay I don't think I'm is this like if
40:04we've both decided that we want our kids
40:06to have piano lessons both decided that
40:09we want our kids to have lunch at school
40:10like we this can't be forgotten right so
40:13this
40:14another thing that men would say well my
40:15wife standards are too high so if she
40:18wants these things to happen she's just
40:19gonna have to take care of them and like
40:22as if that were the unacceptable end to
40:24a discussion so one woman one mother
40:26said to me you know I it's important to
40:28me that my kids are on time for school
40:30every day so I have to be the one to
40:32drop them off and it's like why is that
40:34okay like why wouldn't the parents get
40:36together and she say to him look you're
40:38you're late a lot and I don't think this
40:40is okay for our kids I don't want to
40:42teach them this I don't want them
40:43getting in trouble at school for this we
40:45need for you to get get better at this
40:48where he can't just say well it's on you
40:50if that's important to you because
40:51that's a partnership right it's not just
40:53saying like well I'm gonna opt out if
40:55you don't like the way I'm doing it
40:56another woman said to me you know if my
40:58husband found them they'd have Hamburger
41:01Helper every night so I have to do the
41:02cooking again like why is that okay why
41:05not have a conversation where we talk
41:07about what our acceptable minimum
41:08standards are you know okay you wanna
41:09make Hamburger Helper add some broccoli
41:11that could be acceptable right so
41:12there's just not there's like this this
41:15kind of opting out like well your
41:17standards are higher you have to do it
41:18that really isn't so Kay and then
41:20forgetting might not be okay too right
41:21if you and your partner both decide the
41:23PIO is important and then it can't be
41:24forgotten and that's not acceptable I
41:26mean I really hear you and I appreciate
41:28what you're saying when you say what
41:30they forget it's not the end of the
41:31world but again that's not co-parenting
41:33yeah that is not co-parenting I mean II
41:35guess then there is the logical
41:37consequence of that would that be that
41:39there would be no piano and then we'd
41:41all be annoyed and the you know the
41:43daughter would be frustrated and you're
41:46part of the parenting work by forgetting
41:48and us being like oh well right yeah
41:51that does again lead some more default
41:53parenting well I know I know this isn't
41:55gonna happen if this is on your plate so
41:57I'm gonna take that on
41:58you know Darcy I I do a I do a challenge
42:03like a four day challenge twice a year
42:05called the unmark challenge and your
42:10book has given me plenty of information
42:12obviously to share but it was
42:13interesting as I was thinking about that
42:15I was thinking about like I started
42:16writing in the back of the book like
42:18actions people could take like what are
42:20some actions we can take like how can we
42:22translate this into action and you know
42:25at one point book you say you know tell
42:27your partner I
42:27can't do this all on my own but I love
42:30the idea of like yeah I guess some of
42:31the things I wrote down as ideas were
42:33like you know some of the things we need
42:36to check in are some things we need to
42:38kind of check in ourselves like judging
42:41other moms for their choices or saying
42:43to other moms what did you do with your
42:45kids or who's with the kids what did you
42:50know what do you think about about some
42:53things that actionable things that we
42:55can do to start to start to shift this
42:59because it's I don't want to pass this
43:01stuff on to the next generation I don't
43:02want my daughters to be in a generation
43:05of other women who they're just
43:08absorbing this because all the other
43:09women around them are like that's like
43:11that's not fair I don't want that for
43:12them I think we really have to take a
43:14good look at our internalized sexism as
43:16well as asking our husbands to take a
43:18look at theirs I mean I know that I like
43:21reflexively will go out of my way to
43:24relieve my husband of a burden if he
43:26seems annoyed and I've been trying to
43:30stop doing that and he has been not
43:32allowing it like he's actually read the
43:34book and since he's read the book he I
43:36will say like things have gotten better
43:38I mean discussions over the years that
43:40you know because of his defensive miss
43:42and my anger didn't go so far like I
43:44really noticed some changes lately which
43:46has been kind of interesting and women
43:48have been telling me they've been
43:49following their husbands around the
43:52house reading passages from the book out
43:53loud which cracks me up but I think you
43:56know I think this book is a really close
43:58examination of why women and men behave
44:01the way they do and I think once you
44:04really break all of this down it's
44:07harder to stand by and watch yourself do
44:09it so you know again like just being
44:12aware of how we perpetuate this for
44:15example by saying to a woman who's on a
44:17business trip who's watching your kids
44:19right because no one ever says that to
44:21men or not to compliment fathers like oh
44:25you're oh you've got your kids at the
44:27park that's so great right because a
44:29mother doesn't hear that or like a
44:31friend of mine and the stories in the
44:33book was planning a trip with her
44:34husband and another family and the my
44:38friend her husband
44:40the mother and the other couple were all
44:41texting about what they were gonna be
44:43doing and the other mother was like hey
44:45do I need car seats in the car when I
44:47come pick you guys up at the airport and
44:49then she put in parenthesis sorry to
44:51bother you with this davon that was the
44:53dad
44:53so like the conversation about fun had
44:55included him but when she was asking
44:57about the car seat she apologized for
44:59including him in that part of the
45:00conversation and it's like that kind of
45:02thing is so typical right like dad's
45:05shouldn't have to bear this and I think
45:07again like we all men and women both
45:09internalize these ideas about who's
45:12responsible for this stuff so I think
45:14taking a close look at that and then
45:16checking yourself as you say is a good
45:19idea if you are a man or a woman yeah
45:21and I love this idea of the you know
45:24that awareness like what are we saying
45:25what are we believing all those things
45:28like can we start to take a look at it
45:30and the idea of keeping a time diary or
45:32writing all the things down I mean it
45:34reminds me of when we were frustrated
45:37with our daughters kind of wanting them
45:38to take more responsibility in the house
45:40right and so what we did was we he and I
45:44both wrote down all the things that we
45:46did and then cut out the little pieces
45:48of paper of all the things that we did
45:50and we made a took a big piece of poster
45:52board and divide it into quadrants and
45:53we wrote our names on each one and then
45:55we put these pieces of paper with all of
45:57our tasks into the quadrants and then
46:00you know this serve the mom and dad
46:02quadrants were like obviously you know
46:04heavy with items and we said look this
46:07is all we're doing I need you to take
46:10some of these things and they were like
46:12oh this is the whole thing Wow
46:15okay you know here I'll do this I'll put
46:18away they was right it almost sounds
46:22like we need a similar thing in our
46:24marital relationships it's really funny
46:27because someone posted a picture on
46:29Twitter it was a real estate agent and
46:31she had gone into a house and there was
46:32this chalkboard of everyone's
46:33responsibilities and it said mom dad kit
46:35you know the kids and like the moms
46:37quadrants not in quadrants cuz it was
46:40like a chalkboard the moms boxes were
46:41awful on every day and there was barely
46:43anything in the other places and this
46:45family wasn't I don't think like
46:47examining this in order to change it was
46:49just like a list of everything that had
46:50to happen and the woman the real estate
46:53posted on Twitter because she thought it
46:54was kind of funny and anybody is such a
46:57good visual illustration of everything
46:59that everyone is doing so I think that's
47:00a great idea with your kids and one
47:02might do that with one's partner I guess
47:04- if the partner is real resistant to
47:07seeing the unfairly divided on paid
47:10labor but you you mentioned also that
47:13like that this is part of what needs to
47:14happen is that there has to be kind of
47:16individual resistance because we've made
47:18all this progress like in the workplace
47:20and the outer world and things like that
47:22and this is all in our personal lives
47:23and for change because it's all kind of
47:26installed what since like 1994 or
47:29something like that thousand around 2000
47:32with the Bureau of Labor Statistics is
47:33when the increase in child care stalled
47:36out by men even though they had
47:38increased it yeah
47:3980s and 90s as women were more in the
47:41work mothers were more in the workforce
47:42yeah yeah right
47:45so because right privilege is blind or
47:48invisible I'm sorry privilege is
47:49invisible to those who have it right men
47:51don't often see how much more their
47:52wives are doing so unfortunately to some
47:55what it does fall on women to kind of
47:57individually resist and really make this
47:59an issue in their partnerships that is
48:02true ok I mean it has to wait it has to
48:06be a task that both partners engage in
48:08but I think most often it probably will
48:11start with women
48:12I think women do seven more hours of
48:14unpaid work than men per week and that
48:18that's a lot right one woman I saw
48:21recently said I want those I want that
48:23time back I'm reading this book right
48:25now by Megan stack called women's work
48:27it's about her experience and having a
48:30lot of help in her home when she was
48:31she's a journalist she was working in
48:33China and India and she talks about how
48:35there's this great line that I actually
48:38she says she talks about women not
48:43writing novels or commanding armies or
48:46doctoring or exploring or painting at
48:49the same rate as men and she says the
48:51cause was not as I had been led to
48:52believe that women had been prevented
48:55from working quite the opposite we had
48:57been doing all of the work around the
48:59clock
48:59for centuries and I love that line
49:01because it really says so much right I
49:03mean women can't have more power in
49:07world's and more influence in the world
49:08and more of whatever else one might want
49:13outside of the home and one is saddled
49:15with so much more inside of it yeah yeah
49:18yeah let's let's increase our impact yes
49:22yes
49:23well Darcy this is I could you know talk
49:25to you about this for so long I mean I I
49:27was reading this book at the pool and
49:31before bed and sharing it with people
49:33and I want to thank you for taking this
49:36frustration that you felt and turning it
49:39into this work putting this all together
49:41in one place where people can and really
49:45access and see what this problem is and
49:48really understanding it and breaking it
49:50down and all these all these different
49:51dimensions it really makes things really
49:54clear so you know I want to thank you
49:55for coming on today but also for for for
50:00doing this word that you've done so much
50:02that is so nice of you to say and I
50:04really hope it does have an impact
50:05because I think we're really at a point
50:07in history right now where needles can
50:08be moved and I hope to have helped that
50:10to some degree and thank you for being
50:13interested it and for pushing me to do
50:15this it's been fun
50:17[Music]
50:26Wow isn't that an eye-opening
50:29conversation her book is so I opening -
50:32I like I said I spent a week so
50:36frustrated reading that book but I think
50:39that's part of the thing you know we
50:40need to know be clear and have awareness
50:43about what the problem is before we can
50:44do anything about it so I hope this
50:47podcast conversation and inspires you to
50:50have some some challenging conversations
50:53of your own and before I let you go I
50:58just want to remind you that I just have
51:00a couple spots left
51:01in my group coaching for the remainder
51:05of this year
51:06that's the mindful mama transformation
51:08coaching group is the last time this
51:10will be offered this year and it's at
51:13mindful mama mentor.com / group coaching
51:15and it's it can be an amazing journey
51:19can really change lives it really is
51:21about creating your foundation bit by
51:26bit
51:26over time through you know lots of
51:28personal work so I if you would like to
51:31work with me I would love to work W
51:33let's talk about it I'm happy to hop on
51:35the phone and of course you can head
51:37over to mindful mama mentor com / group
51:40coaching to learn more about that or
51:42email me at Hunter at mindful mama
51:47mentor.com and now I'm wishing you a
51:52peaceful week I wish you some great
51:56moments of joy this week as well and as
52:00always thank you so much for listening I
52:03really appreciate this time that we can
52:06connect and I appreciate that
52:08you choosing to listen to the mindful
52:10mama podcast that means a lot to me the
52:12support I get and the feedback I get
52:15from listeners who makes my
52:18days so thank you so much for listening
52:21namaste
52:23[Music]
52:25you