Full transcript
0:01Hey everyone, welcome back to the
0:03Performance Marketing Minds podcast
0:05brought to you by Outbrain Direct
0:06Response. I'm your host Joe Adana and
0:09today I'm joined by my guy and absolute
0:12performance marketing legend Jason
0:13Katassi. In this episode we'll talk
0:16about the keys to success in the ever
0:18evolving performance marketing world.
0:20Discussing the critical importance of a
0:21strong offer, the value of strategic
0:23partnerships, and the craft of
0:25persuasive copywriting. Jason shares his
0:28journey from affiliate marketer to offer
0:30owner to agency owner, highlighting key
0:32lessons about trust, reputation, and the
0:35importance of having an authentic
0:36passion for media buying. And it's one
0:39of the stories I've personally wanted to
0:40know for a long time. So, everyone,
0:42buckle up and let's jump into my
0:44conversation with Jason Katassi. Enjoy
0:46the episode.
0:49[Music]
1:00So, what the heck have you been up to?
1:02Because I feel like you've been in the
1:04space forever.
1:08>> Yeah. Affiliate agency, offer owner. Um,
1:12>> I mean, what are you doing now? I don't
1:14even I don't even know really where to
1:16start. I want to know what you're up to
1:17now, but also I mean, I know a little
1:18bit, but share with everyone else.
1:20I'll give the faster than 30 second sort
1:23of history how we ended up here. So was
1:25an affiliate for a long time. Did great.
1:29Um and started a kids book business and
1:33we exited that.
1:36And then we I grabbed my right hand now
1:39my partner in this business and we
1:41started running some affiliate stuff. We
1:43grabbed his right hand. So, three of us
1:44and we just started running some
1:46affiliate traffic and it was like, "All
1:47right, let's just like do this thing
1:48until we figure out what we want to do
1:50next." And we were three guys and we had
1:55we made a bunch of money and then we
1:57hired a couple people. We hired a couple
2:00more people. This was last year. I
2:02started affiliate in um you know kind of
2:05the end of 23
2:07and uh then it like the end of last year
2:11we're like eight and now we're like
2:1320some and the big transition was in the
2:17middle of last year we started
2:20transitioning all of our clients to
2:22agency. And what I mean by agency is
2:25like we get paid with a retainer and a
2:27percentage of spend, but the mindset is
2:30we still operate like affiliates. So
2:33we're still clipping hourly, very
2:35performancedriven.
2:37You know, we don't ask like, "Oh, you
2:38have a million dollar budget. Cool. So
2:39we're going to allocate this budget
2:41across all these things and every day
2:42we're going to spend this amount." Like,
2:43it's not that. It's just really what it
2:46came down to was at my age, I've made a
2:49couple bucks
2:51and I got tired of the roller coaster of
2:53the up and down. And so everybody
2:56listening to this call who is an
2:57affiliate or has been or whatever. You
3:00know that feeling when you wake up on a
3:02Saturday morning and your numbers are
3:03like crushing early and you're like
3:05today's going to be a big day and you're
3:07like let's go out. Like I'm just going
3:08to hit refresh. I'm going to call my
3:10boys. We're going to go out on the lake.
3:11We're going to get some barbecue. who
3:13obviously live in Texas now, right? And
3:15you're going to have that day. However,
3:18if you wake up and like at, you know,
3:229:00 Pacific, noon Eastern, your numbers
3:24are your whole day is
3:27right? And so, like my wife comes in,
3:29it's like, "Hey, do you want to go get
3:30some lunch?" I was like, "I don't want
3:31to leave the house." Like, I don't want
3:33to leave the house. Well, we have some
3:35people coming over. I don't want to hang
3:36out with them. Right? And so, the mood
3:38swings were super super high. And I also
3:42realized that I had gotten to this point
3:44where I didn't need to prove myself to
3:47our clients anymore. Like we were all
3:50inbound. So like all the clients came to
3:52us through referral. They had known me
3:53over the years, whatever. And so I was
3:56like, I just want to be paid for my
3:58time. And so if an offer isn't working,
4:03there's only three reasons why the offer
4:06sucks.
4:08Facebook, Outbrain,
4:10YouTube, whatever is sucking or we're
4:14just not the ones to crack it. And
4:17that's always my pitch. I'm like, hey,
4:18like I've been the second, third,
4:20seventh guy in and we made an offer work
4:22that the previous guys didn't who you I
4:24usually know. But the opposite is also
4:26true. And so really, I just wanted to
4:30live an easier, more consistent life.
4:33And you make less money, but it is more
4:36predictable. And we have, you know, I
4:38was telling you before this started, we
4:39have a 10-month-old with another on the
4:41way. And you know, the the deal with my
4:45wife is she knows what she married and
4:48she's in this she's in this business.
4:50You know, my wife, she works for DFO
4:53>> and um the rule is or the deal is I have
4:57to be off the computer by 8:00 at night,
5:00>> which every night it's like, "Fuck, it's
5:02eight."
5:03>> Yeah. You're running up to it. I know.
5:05It's like the countdown clock. Yeah. And
5:07so it just allowed us to just allowed me
5:11anyway and and kind of the rest of the
5:13team at certain levels to just pull some
5:15of the pressure off. The unexpected
5:17consequence though um which blew my mind
5:21was when we move from affiliate to an
5:24agency model so we don't lose, right?
5:27Because it's a percentage of spend and
5:28if an offer is not working, we're
5:30pulling it down. We have more work to do
5:31on the test and whatever. But the
5:33performance went up unexpected.
5:37And the the thesis behind that, at least
5:40the way that I think about it today,
5:43is that when you used to work for me as
5:45an affiliate, I sat there all day with
5:47just a gun to your head. Go make money.
5:50Your numbers suck. Scale. Why didn't you
5:52push? Oh, blah blah blah blah. Whatever.
5:54And now the gun just sits on the table.
5:57And so what happened was is we were able
5:59to like step back a little bit and take
6:01a breath. And if you have a bad day,
6:03it's not the end of the world. I don't
6:05like seeing red in my dashboard, and I
6:08don't like seeing red for continual
6:11periods, let's say.
6:13But it calmed everybody down, and I
6:15think it allowed us to think clearer.
6:19>> I mean, that's what we're doing.
6:21>> Well, how did you Okay, so
6:25I'm putting myself in your shoes. I
6:26assume when you were younger and you
6:28were, like you said, an more of an
6:31affiliate, waking up on a Saturday,
6:33numbers are screaming, everything's
6:36redot, you're feeling great. There's
6:38probably more bad days than those days.
6:40Um, but like
6:45was it just
6:47was it CL was it trust with affiliate
6:50networks? was it trust with the offer
6:51owners directly um that allowed you to
6:54like build up this space to get to where
6:56you could even offer an agency model to
6:58people and having the reputation in the
7:01industry and also like it's funny cuz
7:05you did that first
7:07you made a sweet company had an awesome
7:09exit and now you're back in it. So
7:10there's obviously like this this passion
7:12here for this this grind and testing and
7:16making something work and getting it
7:18going. So, it's got to be in your heart
7:20somewhere or it's or because that's why
7:22you came back to it. But how did you get
7:24to that like how did you get to that
7:26point? Because I'm sure there's tons of
7:27people, more junior people listening to
7:29this that are like, "Okay, I'm doing
7:31this now and if my goal is to charge in
7:33a retainer because it is maybe easier
7:35for me and I I want to be trusted and
7:37everything." Like, was it something
7:39specific you were doing or it's really
7:41just I'm going to bust my ass and try
7:42and work as hard as I can to make
7:44something work and now I have this
7:45reputation?
7:46>> Yeah. So, there's two questions there.
7:47So, ironically, I didn't know about that
7:50question coming ahead of this thing, but
7:51I put up a post on Twitter today, like
7:53literally about what it takes to be an
7:55affiliate. And this is only one man's
7:58perspective, right? So, when you look at
8:00like media buying in general, you know,
8:02there's a whole group of guys that say
8:04when you're running traffic, turn left.
8:06And because turning right doesn't work.
8:07And then there are all these other guys
8:08that are like turning left doesn't work.
8:10We only turn right. So that experience
8:12and that journey, the way you buy media,
8:14the way you approach it really depends
8:16on the on the person. But I think for
8:19me, most of my career was in finance. So
8:22REITs, private equity, hedge funds, all
8:23in commercial real estate. And I had a
8:26pretty successful career. And when I
8:29found marketing, specifically
8:31copywriting. So it turns out I'm a
8:34pretty good copywriter, but I didn't
8:35know. And when I got into it, I looked
8:39at affiliate marketing like it was a
8:41video game. And I loved it. Like I loved
8:47it. If you've ever played Call of Duty
8:49for hours or maybe chess with your
8:51grandfather, your dad, right? Like like
8:54all of these things.
8:56>> I just love the video game. I love the
8:57game. And so for me, like if I lost, I'm
9:02like, I'm going to figure it out. And
9:04there are those periods where like you
9:06hit a bad run, a bad streak, maybe you
9:10like playing poker, whatever it is,
9:11right? You hit a bad run. Sometimes you
9:14have to step away from it and you're
9:16just like and there not many. I bet
9:18there were probably a half dozen as an
9:20affiliate in my career like hit the red
9:23buzzer. I'm taking like a week off. Like
9:26I got to hit reset. And um
9:31you have to really just love the game. I
9:33think a lot of people come into it and
9:35they're just like, "Dude, I saw this guy
9:36with a Lambo that he probably rented or
9:38he bought all these watches, but he
9:40lives in his mom's basement." Like all
9:41those stupid things.
9:43>> Yeah. The guy's flexing in their, you
9:45know, Dolce Gabbana two-pieces at
9:47affiliate summit in Vegas. Yeah.
9:49>> Yeah. Yeah. All those all those things.
9:51Um, but I I I think it comes down to
9:54like you have to love the game because
9:56you are going to lose for a period.
9:59And what we see like when most of my
10:03career on the agency side, you know,
10:06before the book business still like we
10:08trained guys from the ground up and I
10:10knew that if you don't hit a winner in 8
10:12weeks, now you're working full-time and
10:14you're spending my money. Um, but if you
10:16don't hit a winner in 8 weeks, like
10:18you're out. Like you're not going to
10:21make it. And I don't mean scale crush
10:23100,000. I mean just you're like
10:24trending upward. Like all of a sudden
10:26you saw a spike like you're on a winner.
10:28And the most important piece of that was
10:31I needed to make sure that that the guys
10:34on the team got that hit of dopamine,
10:36that shot of heroin, because as soon as
10:39they were hooked, they're hooked. So if
10:41it takes too long for you to win at a a
10:44hand of poker, or it takes you too long
10:46to beat this level on Call of Duty, you
10:49just give up. You're just like, I'm I'm
10:51done. Like, I just keep dying at this
10:52place and like, you know, I keep playing
10:54this level and it just I can't get
10:56through. I keep dying. you give up,
10:58right? And um and so you really really
11:01have to love you really have to love the
11:04game, I think, is the important piece.
11:06And just know that you are going to
11:08lose, but you have to operate like
11:14one, it's real money. And I think there
11:17is a tendency sometimes for people to
11:20play an affiliate like you're playing
11:22with the chips in Vegas. That's why they
11:24use chips and you don't put cash out
11:25there. It's not real money. Well, it is.
11:28And I find the particularly in the media
11:31buying side, the guys are analytical,
11:34they are obsessive,
11:37they are um, you know, they're paying
11:40attention to every detail and they're
11:42curious. And so, like, one of the things
11:44that when my wife was coming up, who is
11:46a manager, I guess, of affiliate
11:48managers now at DFO,
11:50like, and she was just an AM. And so
11:53somebody would and Joe you can probably
11:54speak to this too through through
11:55through your career but like somebody
11:56comes up and they're like how do I set
11:58up a pixel and it's like I don't know go
12:00to the same YouTube that everybody else
12:01goes to and if you don't have a network
12:03and you don't know how to solve a
12:04problem yourself
12:06you're never going to make it like you
12:08just aren't right and so really it comes
12:12down a lot to persistence and the
12:14ability to push through and figure it
12:15out which is no different in any career
12:17any you know you're standing up an offer
12:19you're building a business it's
12:20persistence is is
12:22Yeah, I think the most annoying
12:24conversation or when people reach out is
12:26like can you send me the top performing
12:28creatives or you know um yeah like h how
12:32do I uh how do I set this up and like
12:35I'm here for it because it's part of the
12:37job and like you do want to help guide
12:38people through some things but
12:41>> at the same time you kind of realize
12:42quickly like we had this is a great
12:45example we the whole like 80% of clients
12:49are only 20% of the work and vice versa
12:51So, right.
12:52>> And we got an introduction to this
12:54affiliate um who's running a giddy up
12:57offer. Know nothing about him. It was a
13:00referral from their team. Said he's a
13:01good guy. All over email. Hey, um here's
13:05what I want to run. Uh great. Have you
13:08ever worked with Native before? Yes.
13:09Okay, cool. Here's access to the
13:11dashboard. Gets it set up. Gets it set
13:13up compliantly. Puts the conversion, you
13:16know, installation perfectly. Everything
13:18looks great. He's up within 24 hours.
13:20and now he's scaling and it's like
13:22beautiful and lovely and obviously those
13:24are more rare than than the other times.
13:26Um, but yeah, you can you can you can
13:29tell pretty quickly like who's who's
13:31hungry and who wants it and who's just
13:33like kind of timid and and and maybe
13:37doesn't want to put in that work to get
13:38there. And in my mind, I think things
13:40are like you mentioned copyrightiting. I
13:42think things are and I'm interested in
13:44your take like snapping back to um the
13:49creative and copy and and people really
13:51trying to invest the time there and I
13:53think with all the AI tools and all that
13:54stuff it's it's obviously helping but we
13:57got so saturated into a place where
14:01>> I'm getting YouTube ads about affiliates
14:03and making money online and how easy it
14:05is and grab this offer and my friends
14:07are talking to me about media buying and
14:09like why don't I just become an
14:10affiliate like you work with these
14:11people tell tell me how to do it. And
14:12I'm like, dude, this is a little bit
14:16harder than people make it seem. And I
14:18feel like the thing that is elevating
14:21people now is like
14:24you really have to have the hunger and
14:26desire to stand out and be different,
14:28especially like from a technical
14:29standpoint. Our algo, and I know it's
14:32not the only one, it actually penalizes
14:34people if they're using the same looking
14:36images, the same exact headlines, like
14:38it will put you down in the ranking.
14:41>> Um, ripping.
14:42>> Yeah. Yeah. And not let you and and not
14:44let you win those bids if if the first
14:46person's already done it because for so
14:48long it's like everyone's trying to run
14:50the same thing. And I think
14:52>> Yeah. Like the copyrightiting and I mean
14:54how how do you think that's more
14:56important at I know the offer has to be
14:58good and the back end has to be good and
14:59the funnel has to be good but like
15:01>> what's the weight that you give to the
15:03actual offer or or the creative?
15:06>> The most important thing is a good
15:07offer. And so, um,
15:11that's the most rare and that is the
15:13most important thing. And so, on the
15:15agency side, I know most of the guys, so
15:18we don't really have this with
15:19frequency, but we have had it where it's
15:21just like, dude, the offer is not
15:22converting. You're, you know, you're not
15:26doing a good job.
15:28Great media buying doesn't fix a
15:31mediocre or bad offer. So, that is the
15:34most important piece. I think behind
15:37that, the second most important piece is
15:40the right partner. And if you think that
15:43whether you're running direct or through
15:45a network that your partnership doesn't
15:46matter, it 100% does. If you go to any
15:50affiliate network, if you think that all
15:52the affiliate managers are the same,
15:53they are not. All the tellers at the
15:55bank are not the same. All the reps at
15:57the traffic sources are not the same.
16:00And so, and all the partners are not the
16:02same. So for us, if we, you know, as an
16:05agency now, we are more committed and
16:08dedicated to an offer than you are as an
16:10affiliate where you're like, I'm going
16:11to run Apple version one from Johnny,
16:14Apple version two from Steve, and you're
16:16going to split test them and find the
16:17winner and whatever. So for us, if we're
16:19going to dedicate these resources and
16:20effort, then it is very important for us
16:23that on the other side, you're testing,
16:27you're optimizing, you're trying to
16:29figure out. And um this will
16:32dovetail into one of the challenges that
16:34we've that I personally have as an
16:36agency is that depending on the offer,
16:40the relationship, whatever, we have
16:42varying degrees of accessibility um into
16:45an offer. And I just mean like the back
16:47end, maybe it's their GA, maybe it's
16:49whatever it is.
16:51And one of the things that we struggled
16:53with early on was we had just come from
16:55an owned and operated business where I
16:57could look at anything and fix and dive
16:59in and whatever or try to fix, right?
17:02And the analogy that I give is sort of
17:05like Joe, you come over to my house, you
17:06throw me your keys and you're like,
17:08drive me to this restaurant. And I'm
17:10like, okay. And you're paying me or
17:11whatever, right? And so I'm driving to
17:13this restaurant and there's a rattle in
17:14the car. And I'm like, hey dude, there's
17:15like something going on with the engine.
17:17Can I pull over and pop the hood? you're
17:19like, "No, go faster." And you're just
17:21like, "Holy hell." And so I think first
17:25it's offer, second, it's the
17:27partnership. Are they working with you?
17:29Um, and even if it's on the affiliate
17:31side or the the affiliate manager side
17:33or the traffic source, are they
17:35supporting you growing? Are they
17:37protecting your interests? Right? So
17:40like you talked about ripping before. We
17:42are very anti- rip. We never rip. We've
17:45been ripped more times than I can count.
17:48And um but that's like part of part of
17:50our brand. So like if you're getting
17:52ripped on a network and then one of the
17:54AM's grabs that stuff and shares because
17:57they don't get a piece, right? So they
17:59share. Well, maybe it's the wrong
18:01network. Maybe your AM should be going
18:03scorched earth internal. Like whatever
18:04it is, it all comes down to partnerships
18:06afterwards. Um and then the last piece
18:09in terms of importance is copywriting.
18:14without copy, your great copy or at
18:17least good copy, your offer, your
18:19traffic's dead, right? So like you see
18:23all these hacks where like oh maybe
18:25there's this like loophole in the algo
18:27on Outbrain or or Meta or Google,
18:31hey man, like your media buying tactics
18:34might squeeze out some margin by the way
18:36and allow you to scale, but it doesn't
18:39it's not a binary takes a bad offer and
18:41makes it good. takes a bad creative and
18:43makes it good. And so at the end of the
18:45day, like the marketing team, marketing
18:50affiliates, whatever you want to call
18:52yourself, you're the salesman for that
18:54company. So, you have to know how to
18:58sell. You could take the prettiest
18:59woman, the most handsome dude, dresses
19:01super well, can't talk. If you
19:04can't speak, you aren't going to sell
19:06And that's all copywriting is. I
19:08don't care what funnel you're running. I
19:10don't care if it's YouTube or I don't
19:12care about the channel. I don't care if
19:14it's video. I don't care if it's static.
19:16It all comes down to copy. That is the
19:18salesmanship, the art of this um world.
19:23And then how you execute on that.
19:25>> It's kind of wild how
19:29a lot of things in life comes come down
19:31to sales. Like everyone's selling
19:33something, even yourself, your service,
19:35your product, like
19:36>> whatever. And and my first job out of
19:39college was just a cold calling shop.
19:41Like I you know we didn't have specific
19:43dials we needed to make a day but it was
19:45literally picking up the phone selling
19:47and it taught me a lot but after a year
19:49and a half there I was like I am not a
19:52salesperson. I do not want to do sales.
19:54This is brutal. I want to be an account
19:55manager. Right. So applied to Albbrin
19:58and got a job in account management and
19:59eventually moved back into sales. And
20:01the reason that I moved back into sales
20:03was because of what you said on the on
20:05like the partnership end. Like it is
20:10I guess I can speak to that part. It's
20:12just so so important to like know the
20:15right people but also have conversations
20:18about the right stuff or nothing at all.
20:20Like I just think about you and I like
20:22we've known each other for a while.
20:23There's times when we've done business,
20:25there's times when we haven't done
20:26business together. Sometimes we text
20:28back and forth, ask each other
20:29questions, and like try and navigate the
20:31the landscape, right? And in our world,
20:35like the more you're in it, the more you
20:37realize how small it actually is. And
20:39you need to know the right people. Like
20:41you need to know George at Tik Tok. If
20:43you're running search on Tibuli, you
20:45need to know Andre. If you're running
20:46performance marketing at Outbrain, you
20:48probably need to know me at least to get
20:50to the right, you know,
20:51>> everybody knows the right way, right?
20:54And like I think in my mind like the
20:57biggest one of the biggest things I see
20:59too is people coming up and signing up
21:01for the platform and they haven't talked
21:04to anybody but they're this huge a
21:07affiliate or performance marketer or
21:09brand like we had Amazon come in the
21:10self-s serve funnel and just start
21:12testing $500 a day and we were like what
21:16the hell is going on? Like this is not
21:19this is not the way to do things. like
21:20you need to talk to somebody whether
21:22it's affiliate network or it's a product
21:24or if it's a whatever like
21:26>> um and it always it always surprises me
21:29like take taking the extra time to find
21:32the right partnership and not just
21:34trying to like launch two feet into the
21:36water and see if you can swim in in all
21:40areas of life. It's like talk to the
21:41people that you think know something and
21:42try and navigate it a little bit to make
21:44sure you're in the right spot before you
21:46actually hit the gas. I mean, right? How
21:48many times have you seen an advertiser
21:50who doesn't know how to fix a tracking
21:51issue?
21:52>> That's like the most binary where you're
21:54like, I'm telling you right now, we sent
21:56a hundred people to the checkout and two
21:58people bought.
21:59>> Sure, it could be a a processing amid
22:01issue, but like it's probably tracking.
22:04That goes back to the second part of
22:05your other question that you asked
22:07earlier that I wanted to touch on. I was
22:08actually thinking about this this
22:10morning, too, was around personal brand.
22:12So, I I'll share a story. So, I a while
22:16back I was going to go into a deal with
22:17a guy who does not have the best
22:19reputation.
22:21And I was talking to a guy who you
22:24probably know, James Van Ellswig, and we
22:27were looking at going into this, you
22:29know, into this deal. And James goes,
22:33"Well, you know, this one guy has a
22:35shaky reputation and you don't have a
22:38reputation." And I was like, "What do
22:39you mean I don't have a reputation?"
22:40"Sure, I do." and he's like, "I've been
22:42in this game a long, long time, and
22:44you're one of the very few people I know
22:46where nobody has a bad thing to say
22:48about you. You don't have a reputation.
22:50You just do what you're going to say and
22:51so on and so forth." And tied to that
22:54question, that's how we were able to
22:55transition to agency. And like one of
22:57the things that we did as an affiliate
23:00is going to blow a bunch of affiliates
23:02minds. We never ask for pay bumps.
23:07And the reason that we never ask for pay
23:09bumps is my margin is my business. Your
23:12margin is your business. So if you want
23:14more traffic and you have the margin,
23:16that is a business decision on your end
23:18to offer me more so that we can scale.
23:21If you do not want to, that's up to you.
23:24As an affiliate, you want to run it 30
23:2650 points, great. As an advertiser,
23:29you know, you want to run it negative to
23:32get more traffic because you're going to
23:33make it up on the back end. That's you.
23:34you decide you need to make 1015 on the
23:37front end that's on you. And it was like
23:39always this weird thing because then
23:41guys would be like if we when we were
23:43running affiliate if we give you like
23:44$10 more like how much more traffic are
23:46you going to push? I'm like don't
23:48know. Like call Zuckerberg,
23:50right? Like go ask him how much more
23:52traffic I'm going to send. And so
23:54there's just that variability. And I
23:57think because of that
24:00it took me I I've been in this game
24:02shoot I don't I don't know
24:05probably 12 years or something like
24:06that. But like my brand was built over
24:1110 years that allowed me to do the thing
24:13that I'm doing now. And so it wasn't
24:16like you dude, nobody knew me when I
24:18started, right? Like we were just some
24:20guys and we ran some traffic and it is
24:22what it is. But I think the repetitive
24:25thing of doing what you say you're going
24:26to do and treating your client or the
24:29traffic source with respect, not always
24:31the account managers with respect, by
24:32the way.
24:34um mostly the advertisers I guess I
24:36should say.
24:37>> Yeah,
24:38>> it's like a longtail thing that
24:41eventually reaped its rewards. We got
24:43push back when we tried to switch from
24:45affiliate to agency. We did. And I told
24:47him the truth and here's the story. I'm
24:49like, I want more consistent cash flow
24:51so we can build a team so we can invest
24:54in in tech and AI and all of these
24:56things. Do we make less money? Sure. but
25:00I don't have those highs and lows on the
25:01weekends or Tuesdays or Thursdays or
25:03whatever when traffic is doing good and
25:05bad. And um so I think another lesson to
25:09to summarize, another lesson for
25:11affiliates is, you know, treat others
25:14how you would want to be treated and
25:16don't try to go after the advertiser's
25:20last dollar. If you do, they're out of
25:23business and you can't run that offer
25:25anyway, right? And I just think people
25:28in this space, it's fast money,
25:30short-sighted, smash and grab, like all
25:32of those things. And I don't mean have a
25:36low upfront AOV because you're going to
25:38build a massive LTV and you're going to
25:39turn into this brand that's also hard.
25:42Um,
25:44but how would you want to be treated?
25:47Otherwise, the whole relationship is
25:48friends with benefits. And everybody
25:50listening on this call knows how those
25:52relationships end.
25:54>> They just end.
25:55>> Yeah.
25:56>> Right. They're just done. I know. I one
25:59of the um
26:01one of the things that I mean every a
26:06person in sales know this knows this but
26:08the whole like power of of know and it
26:10kind of goes to the honesty component
26:12and just putting yourself in other
26:15people's shoes and I always have trained
26:17our sales reps and account managers to
26:20and your point of like no the money is
26:22real. It's like
26:24let's just take it. I know we're trying
26:26to like push a different product, get
26:28them to test certain angles, like all
26:29this stuff, but let's just, you know,
26:32take a couple steps back. Let's actually
26:34think, you know, how they're feeling
26:36about their entire business, not just
26:38their spend on Albrain, talking to their
26:40account manager or something, you know,
26:42and trying to be on the same page of a
26:46mutually beneficial partnership. And
26:50that kind of comes with um building
26:53trust over years and when people say,
26:56"Hey, I got $100,000 a month where our
26:59cap is huge and I want to test this cell
27:01phone offer that the government's given
27:03away and I think it's going to crush and
27:04here's here's what I want to do." Yeah.
27:06>> And
27:08the what actually makes you more
27:10successful is not hitting like your
27:11shortterm numbers and like sweet I'm
27:14getting you know payouts as a sales rep
27:16at 120%. And like this is awesome
27:18because it's all going to come crashing
27:20down because you didn't say hey actually
27:23>> I think that's not the best play over
27:25here. It's not really our target
27:26audience on the platform and you know
27:29let's actually think about what makes
27:31the most sense. What else do you have in
27:32the hopper? What else are you excited
27:33about? what else can we think through?
27:36And
27:37that whole like long-term delayed
27:40gratification component is what
27:44a lot of junior people um don't really
27:47understand yet. And I think like that's
27:48my biggest uh training piece, but also
27:52the thing that I try and push the most
27:53is like guys, this is about longevity.
27:56It's not about testing something really
27:58really fast and trying to blow it out
28:01for 3 months. I mean, we'll take those
28:03and it's always good because we know
28:04Medicare is from October to December and
28:06like we need to go heavy, you know, for
28:09Medicare.
28:09>> It's hard, man, because when you're
28:11young, your time horizon is very thin,
28:15right? So, if you're 30 years old,
28:18you've been working in a jobby job, and
28:21I don't mean your your high school job
28:22or whatever you did in college, but like
28:24for a third of your life. And so, you
28:26know, now I'm coming up on, you know,
28:2940. I'll be 48 in a couple months. And
28:31so, you know, graduated college in 22 or
28:35whatever. So, like I've been working
28:37half my life now. So, like, which is 20
28:40some odd years that you've had all of
28:42these experiences. It's it's hard cuz
28:44people see the fast money. And um I
28:46don't know. Sort of like your parents
28:48are like, "Don't put your finger in the
28:49light socket. You're going to get
28:50shocked." You're like, "You don't know.
28:52It's it's hard." So, you you know, I
28:55have a lot of father analogies and my
28:57wife hates all the dad jokes, which I
28:58love, but I mean, it's true. You're
29:00like, "All right, she's going to fall
29:02down and that's okay." Um, then she'll
29:04then she'll learn. Yeah, it's it's hard.
29:07>> Well, how is that like being a father?
29:10And my wife's pregnant as well, so I'm
29:12ready. I'm
29:13>> Congratulations.
29:14>> I take it back. I'm not ready. Um, but
29:16>> you won't be ready. You won't.
29:18>> Yeah. But like, do you think that had
29:20any
29:22change in the way you view your
29:24business? And was that like
29:25subconsciously or consciously why you
29:27wanted less erratic days and a more
29:30consistent cash flow and just like a
29:33more sustainable business or how has
29:35that
29:37changed the way you view things now? Cuz
29:39also I could like thinking about, you
29:41know, when you're younger and what
29:42offers you're even promoting and like do
29:44I feel good about this, but I'm making
29:46money and like that's a lot of even at a
29:48at a network it's like I I love helping
29:50people make their money and you know
29:53supporting their family and it's it's
29:56the best. But then you look at you have
29:58this like thought in the back of your
30:00head where it's like man they're just
30:01promoting you know and like why
30:04are we signing up for this? So, how is
30:06that like in your mind now? Like how has
30:09that changed?
30:10>> Yeah, there's a bunch of different
30:11things around that. So, like the last
30:14thing you mentioned, so it would be the
30:15first place I start is around like black
30:18hat, shitty products, all that kind of
30:21stuff, fast money. And I think if you
30:24don't have money or have never had money
30:26or you aspire for these things like, you
30:29know, Lambos and watches or whatever the
30:30hell else it is, um, like, it. I
30:34don't care.
30:35And then you hit on the other side. So
30:38let we'll take me as an example.
30:41Offers have moved across our desk. We
30:43have never run black hat. It's not what
30:45we do. But offers have they do move
30:47across our desk like, "Hey, we got this
30:48new offer. Take a look." And we look and
30:50I'm like, "Dude, so let me explain what
30:52happens here." So I'm not interested in
30:55small traffic. I only want big traffic.
30:57So, if we run big traffic on something
30:59that's very bad, a very uh professional
31:03guy is going to show up at my door and
31:05take every dollar I have. I'm 48 years
31:08old, 47. I am too old, not too old to
31:12build again, but like too old to build
31:13again. I don't want to lose my house, my
31:15cars, my marriage, my like all the
31:16things. My wife wouldn't leave me, but
31:18like you know what I mean?
31:19>> Yeah.
31:20>> And so, you just get to this point where
31:22the risk coefficient is just too great,
31:26right? And it's sort of like because
31:29look, let's assume you're you're running
31:31some black hat Shark Tank lander and
31:33you're making 500 bucks a day. You're
31:36like, "Huh, well, maybe I'll just make
31:38a,000 and I'll hold." And then you're
31:40like, "Well, maybe I'll make like 5,000,
31:4310,000." Next thing you know, you're a
31:44goddamn kingpin of the Shark Tank
31:46landers. And if you're young and and
31:50don't care, fine. But you will hit a
31:53point where you have built enough um
31:57wealth that you don't want to start
31:59again.
32:00And and so I don't know you can't answer
32:04like it's it goes back to the finger in
32:06the light socket. Like it's very hard to
32:08kind of answer you know explain to
32:10somebody what not to do. The fathership
32:12piece is interesting
32:15and in line with that like I also got
32:17married a couple years ago. So I did
32:19everything later in life because I was
32:20dead set focused on success and making
32:23money. And I remember when we got into
32:26Yahoo, we were Yahoo only Gemini. That's
32:29all we did. We didn't weren't doing
32:30Facebook. Like that was like our jam.
32:33And I as one guy I was making 100 grand
32:36a day. And I loved it. I was working
32:39seven days a week, you know, 14 16 hours
32:41a day. I like woke up Gemini went to
32:44bed. Gemini, we were their largest
32:46advertiser for two years. I knew that
32:48platform better than anybody I spoke to
32:50at Yahoo. And I would tell them like all
32:52the we'd figured out. And it they
32:54like they just didn't they just didn't
32:56know. And that's fine. But then as the
32:59business grew and we worked a lot and
33:02grew the kids book business and that was
33:04really a grind. Um remind me to come
33:07back to when is the time to quit. Um I
33:10think it's kind of an interesting topic
33:12and we grew that business and you know
33:15then the affiliate stuff was making me
33:17way more money than the kids book
33:19business was on a current yield anyway.
33:22And um and then we had a baby and I
33:26would still work like late late like I'd
33:28work till I got tired pretty much,
33:30right? Depending on the day, 9:00,
33:3212:00, 2:00 in the morning, whatever.
33:35And the rule that um rule is not the
33:37right word, too strong. But the deal
33:39that my wife and I made is she knows who
33:41she married. Um I'm this way. The whole
33:45time we dated, this was my work
33:47behavior. And it was like, I need you
33:49off by 8. And so every day at 8:00, I
33:52know that I'm off. And I think the thing
33:55that I struggle with the most right now
33:58is I don't have the freedom on the
34:00weekends that I used to have, which was
34:01my favorite time to work. And it's very
34:03tough. We don't have a nanny on the
34:05weekends by choice. And
34:08you know, you try to be present as a
34:10husband and a father and to just
34:11decompress for yourself. sit outside, go
34:13in the pool, have a beer, have a
34:14whiskey, go for a walk, whatever it is.
34:17And
34:19the weekends are when now I have barely
34:23any inbound
34:25Telegram messages. Um, you know, email
34:28is pretty much dead on the weekends,
34:30right? So it allows me to catch up
34:33because as you run a business in a team,
34:35you know, Monday through Friday, you
34:37know, 9 to 6 or whatever it is, I work
34:39for the company or I work for the team.
34:42So like I don't have the opportunity to
34:45do a lot of my own work that I need to
34:47do, which most of it is typically
34:52uh I don't say like deeper work, larger
34:55projects if you will. And so you need
34:58longer durations of uninterrupted
35:00periods of time. And so the weekends
35:01have been have that's my current
35:03struggle today.
35:05>> And I don't know how we I don't know how
35:06we solve it. But um
35:09>> yeah, and then I think you have this
35:10whole risk piece, right? So it's just
35:13like I want constant cash flow. I want
35:15to be able to plan and I've been
35:18investing way more aggressively. And I
35:21don't mean VC Um, you know, I've
35:24taken some deals will move across my
35:26desk time to time and I throw a couple
35:28bucks in mostly because I want to go for
35:29a ride. Um, like the guys like the
35:31thesis, if it hits, it hits, if it
35:33doesn't, it doesn't. Call with a guy
35:35yesterday I invested in early on. We
35:38were client and um great team, great
35:43just whole team's awesome. And they in
35:46the last couple years have tripled their
35:49ARR from when I did my first investment.
35:51I was like, "Oh, that's nice. I'll get
35:52some money out of that. Um,
35:56yeah, I think the pace of life has
35:59slowed down. Probably more work life
36:01balance, I guess, which I hate. Like if
36:03I interview people and they're like, I
36:05really care about work life balance. I
36:06was like, you're 25. Your job is work.
36:09Like work and learning. Like there is no
36:12>> there is no work life balance. Um,
36:14controversial, I know, but it's
36:17>> No, I saw something on LinkedIn the
36:18other It was a recruiter posting and a
36:20someone from an HR company uh at a
36:22company and they were talking about how
36:25one of the people that they might hire
36:27they were like well what's important to
36:28you um at a company what's a dealbreaker
36:31what's a no all this kind of stuff and
36:32yeah someone in their 20s said work life
36:34balance and
36:37I like what I agree completely because
36:40what I always say to people is like your
36:4220s and your 30s too but like that's the
36:45time where you
36:47>> have the energy
36:48have the testosterone to like really hit
36:52it and be unforgiving and unrelenting in
36:55all of your effort to to something,
36:57right? And I'm not saying I'm coasting
36:59now by any means, but like that effort
37:02in years 22 to 30, like those eight
37:07years set up everything else that's
37:10going to come down the line.
37:13And I think in our world, people do
37:16maybe realize that and they overwork
37:18might not be the right term, but they go
37:21hard, you know, they they go hard when
37:23they're younger. Um,
37:25but yeah, I agree. It's wild. It's a
37:28wild thought.
37:29>> Yeah. So, it's look, it's it's a
37:31struggle and it's a dynamic and um yeah,
37:35and so it changed me, but I also think
37:37I'm at a different point in life. So,
37:39you know, I've never thought of it this
37:40way, but your job in your 20s is to
37:43learn. Your job in your 30s is to work
37:46hard and and execute. And I think your
37:49job in your 40s is to build. And look,
37:52those windows change for different
37:54people, right? Some people are slower,
37:56some people are faster. But I think
37:58those are the three building blocks. And
38:00depending on where you are, like look,
38:03if you know my kids when they're 10
38:05years old and I go, "Yeah, I need work
38:07life balance." like you of all people.
38:09I'm like, look, I'm at this point. I
38:11want to coach softball. I want to take
38:13my daughter to dance class. Like, I want
38:15to write a book, right? I've I've
38:18already done the the the work really
38:21hard, which is separate, by the way,
38:24from c from curiosity. So, I'm
38:26constantly curious and like always like
38:29in the chats, you know, all the
38:30affiliate chats. I'm in most of them, I
38:32suspect. Um, what are you doing? What's
38:35working? like like you see stuff and
38:37you're just curious and um the curiosity
38:40doesn't go away. But I think now you
38:43have at least for me now you have a
38:45couple bucks and you can hire and train
38:47people to execute on your vision rather
38:49than not having a couple bucks and you
38:51have to do it yourself. That's the only
38:53way.
38:54>> Yeah. And you, someone that's
38:56transitioned a bunch of times and have
38:59have thought about when it's time to
39:04maybe wrap up or close the doors of a
39:06project and move on. I know we talked
39:08about like
39:10>> a media buyer testing over eight weeks
39:12if they're not getting anything to work
39:13in time. But like for for you like the
39:16from a you know bigger picture point
39:18like
39:19yeah when is when is enough enough? like
39:23not just for your own personal career
39:26and brand and and and building now and
39:28and
39:29>> being curious, but like
39:32>> when is it time to say, you know what,
39:34I've hit my limit on this and it's time
39:36to
39:37>> Yeah, that's a good great question. So,
39:39I think there's two things to consider.
39:41So, generally for this audience, I
39:44suspect one is enough enough. It's like
39:45what's that number
39:47>> cash? That's what people are thinking
39:48of.
39:49>> Yeah. And really it depends on the
39:52individual. So what is the right amount
39:56of cash for me? So I'm not into fast
40:00cars. Like I have nice cars, but like I
40:03don't need a bunch of Porsches and
40:04Lambos and all of these things. Um I
40:08don't need to fly private. I mean it'd
40:10be nice, right? I mean I have but like
40:12it's not like I don't need a plane
40:14unless I need the tax write off which
40:16you know maybe one day I do. Um, I think
40:19it comes down to how can you get to a
40:21point where you have enough passive
40:22income to live your life. There was a
40:25guy that uh, you know, I won't mention
40:27his name on this podcast, but he's kind
40:29of stepped away from affiliate
40:31marketing. And the guy is a big dog, one
40:33of the biggest media buyers I know. A
40:36few of you listening uh, who've been
40:37around for a minute probably know who
40:39the guy is.
40:41And he started investing a lot in real
40:44estate. And when I saw him a few weeks
40:46ago, he told me how much money he's
40:48making passively off this real estate.
40:52Dude doesn't have to work, by the way.
40:54He makes enough money on the yield from
40:57the apartment buildings and and houses
41:00and condo, whatever else he has that he
41:02doesn't have to work. And he's like,
41:03"Dude, this is crazy actually." And so
41:07he made his money in affiliate and then
41:10turned it into the ability to have a
41:12passive income. And I think for me,
41:14that's what I'm the most interested in.
41:16Um, you know, on my vision board is a
41:18house on Lake Austin. Like, if I could
41:20literally walk out my back door and get
41:22in a boat, my wife would never see me,
41:24by the way. She'd be like, "Where the
41:25kids are dogs?"
41:26>> at any time of day.
41:27>> Yeah. Yeah. See you later.
41:30>> Yeah. And I I think the the the harder
41:33thing to consider is when is it time to
41:35actually give up on a business idea, a
41:37career choice. Maybe you're struggling
41:39as an affiliate and maybe you're
41:41struggling standing up your own brand
41:44and when is it time to quit? Um that's
41:46different for everybody, but I'll share
41:49my story. Um cuz the decision to
41:52basically exit the book business was not
41:54an easy one. It was um it was a very
41:57hard one. But you know, we ran that
42:00business for six years and we had a
42:02desire desirable outcome. It was not the
42:06outcome that I had hoped for, but you
42:08know, we got acquired by Scholastic and
42:10that was that was great,
42:12but it was a long journey and there were
42:15many ups and downs. You know, it was,
42:19you know, for listeners who've heard me
42:20on other P podcasts, I've told the
42:22longer version of the story, but at the
42:24low in the beginning, I was 1.26 million
42:26in the whole of my own cash and just
42:28going and whatever. And then we were at
42:30a point we were printing money, printing
42:32money. COVID kids books pre iOS 14, come
42:36on. And then iOS 14 hit. And then we had
42:39a couple other things. And it was just
42:41it was I was tired. And I when we were
42:45when I was a million bucks in the hole
42:47on this business, I was like, I'll run
42:48the into the ground. I'm never
42:50going to give up. Nobody tells me no.
42:51Like I persevere. I push through. Like
42:52that's just who I am. And then I hit
42:55this point where I was like, it's time.
42:57And in hindsight,
43:00that time was probably earlier I hung on
43:03too long because the opportunity cost
43:05was very high to do something else.
43:08And so there's this challenge I think
43:11around when do you give up and do you
43:14give up too soon which just makes you a
43:16right? Like you just gave up like
43:18you're you're a You spent $1,000
43:20on affiliate over the course of three
43:22weeks and it didn't work.
43:25You've spent not even as related to
43:27cash, but hours. You spent hours and
43:30hours and hours doing this and you're
43:32just like constantly like just break
43:35even and it just doesn't come naturally
43:37to you and like
43:39it's probably not for you and that's
43:41okay. I could practice a,000 hours a day
43:44and I am never getting into the NBA.
43:47Turns out some dude who is 510 is not
43:50getting into the into the NBA at my age,
43:53right? And so I think it's about finding
43:56the right fit. It's you know you want
43:59square peg square hole and when you find
44:03that like it's unreal and for me that
44:06journey was from finance to marketing. I
44:09had a really good career, like I said
44:10earlier, in finance. I a great career to
44:14be honest. But when I found this, it
44:18just was easy for me and I loved it. And
44:21so I think if you stand up a brand and
44:24you think like, dude, I'm running
44:26traffic and the advertisers making all
44:28this money and like if I just stood this
44:30brand up, I would recapture all this
44:32margin. I'm like, you have no idea how
44:34much more work you made for yourself.
44:36You have no idea. I did it. It is not
44:38easy. is very very hard. Um, yeah, it's
44:42just very very hard. And so I think
44:44there's a thing around being honest with
44:46yourself around when is it time and it
44:49doesn't have to just be in careers. When
44:51is it time to stop trying to make this
44:54offer work that you know other guys are
44:56working on and scaling. By the way, half
44:58the guys who are telling you they're
45:00scaling are probably lying to you,
45:03right? And so like we went to affiliate
45:05summit west this year and I told my team
45:08most of whom had never been. I'm like
45:09yeah so when you go work the bar at the
45:11Cosmo and you just go meet people and
45:13you ask like how how's traffic like ah
45:16it's crushing. Everything's
45:18great. All arrows are up and to the
45:19right. Walk away. That guy's lying. You
45:22want the guy who's like we're crushing
45:24right now but holy hell. Last quarter,
45:27dude. Last quarter I rolled back uh from
45:30sushi to, you know, to ramen, right?
45:32like I I just I thought we were going
45:34out of business. Those are the guys that
45:35you want to hang out with. Um so don't
45:38fall in love with offers and most
45:40importantly don't fall in love with your
45:41ads.
45:43We still see this on varying levels is
45:44like dude but this ad it had one good
45:47day. I'm like we look at it this way.
45:52A winner on meta specifically which is
45:54the concentration of our traffic right
45:56now. Um, but on meta, a winner doesn't
46:00lose more than once in 3 days and it
46:04doesn't lose more than twice in seven.
46:06And so what ends up happening is people
46:08remember that day where it crushed. So
46:10for example, we had a campaign that I
46:12was following closely today. Um, the CPA
46:15targets roughly 100 bucks. Today we're
46:17at 128. Yesterday we were at 67. But
46:21people are going to remember that that
46:22ad was at 67 yesterday. But then just go
46:25look day by day. It had a couple super
46:28hot days, but in the aggregate it's a
46:29loser. That thing's run too long. And
46:31that was my message back to the chat.
46:33Like it's amazing that you hit
46:35yesterday.
46:36>> But like that is not a winner.
46:39Um that just hits some days, right? And
46:43so when you think about campaigns and
46:46angles, if you think
46:48>> I hope today it hits,
46:51it's not a good ad or it's not a good
46:53offer. you need to be thinking, I hope
46:55it hits hard today.
46:58Otherwise, it's just gambling and you're
46:59probably better off going to Vegas.
47:01>> Well, yeah, that's kind of I was going
47:03to loop it back into the finance
47:04conversation. It's like you don't invest
47:06with your heart, you invest with your
47:08head. And sometimes you invest with your
47:09heart and it works out for you. But, you
47:11know, it's kind of the luck of the draw
47:14sometimes. But the best are,
47:17you know, they they have the mindset to
47:18not get overly attached to to certain
47:21things. So, thousand%. And I mean to the
47:26end of that question, when is it time to
47:28quit? When's it time to wrap up? We've
47:29been jamming for 45 minutes. I feel like
47:32>> I feel like that's a good I feel like
47:34that's a good segue into it. Um,
47:36>> but yeah, I mean, this was awesome. I
47:39don't know if you want to leave anybody
47:40with thoughts for the future or your um
47:44reactivated X account or
47:48>> any parting ways, but yeah, feel free.
47:50No, if you guys have questions or
47:52whatever, uh, hit me up on on Twitter,
47:54that's kind of my that's kind of my jam.
47:56It's my full name, Jason Katasi. Uh, I
47:58have no courses to sell, no newsletters
48:00to sign up, um, no offers to pitch. Um,
48:04but, you know, if if you like having a
48:06whiskey and talking about traffic, I'm
48:08probably your guy.
48:10>> Yeah, just a good wisdom and whiskey.
48:12Maybe you should start a Twitter spaces.
48:14I know those fell out of favor since uh,
48:16>> wisdom and whiskey
48:17>> since, but yeah, wisdom and whiskey. And
48:19I wish there was another W that was for
48:22traffic and performance marketing. Maybe
48:24winning. I don't know.
48:25>> Yeah,
48:26>> I'm not the marketing guy.
48:28>> Well, I appreciate I appreciate you
48:30having me, Joe.
48:31>> Yeah. Thank you so much.
48:33>> All right.
48:36[Music]