DE QUOI MEDIAPART EST-IL LE NOM ? EP #2 - LE SIONISME DE GAUCHE - SIMON ASSOUN, THIERRY LABICA...

0:40Hello everyone , and welcome to Parole

0:42d’honneur . It has been almost 3 years

0:45since Israel began its genocide in Gaza

0:48. 3 years during which the boundaries

0:50of cruelty , sadism , and barbarism have

0:52been constantly pushed back . For 3

0:54years , the so-called most moral army

0:55has led an industrial-scale massacre

0:57unseen in the 21st century . 3 years

1:00since every man , woman , and child has

1:02lived with the hanging threat of

1:03certain death , mowed down by a sniper ,

1:05crushed by bombs , or succumbing to

1:07starvation . 3 years since the

1:09mainstream media has been determined to

1:11defend the indefensible , to minimize ,

1:13euphemize , and sometimes even excuse a

1:15mass crime . Everyone has repeated

1:17Israel’s unwavering right to defend

1:19itself , to respond to terrorism , and to

1:22live in security . For their part ,

1:24activists and supporters of the

1:26Palestinian cause have been bayonetted ,

1:27censored , intimidated by the police ,

1:29and persecuted by the courts . The

1:32political parties that have stood up to

1:34defend the martyrdom of the Palestinian

1:36people , first and foremost La France

1:37Insoumise , have suffered the wrath of

1:39an unbridled and radicalized media

1:41system . Only a few independent media

1:43outlets have stood firm against all

1:45odds to continue to inform and provide

1:47the voice of a Palestinian people who

1:49will never resolve to disappear . In

1:53such a context , how can we describe

1:54Mediapart's coverage of the Palestinian

1:56issue , particularly since October 7 ,

1:582023 ? Let's say from the outset that in

2:02terms of shedding light on the causes

2:03of the war , collecting testimonies , and

2:05exposing the criminal practices and

2:07logic of the State of Israel , the

2:09newspaper has generally done its job .

2:11This is important but not enough ,

2:13because Media Park is not just a simple

2:16news outlet . He takes a stand , defends

2:18principles , and supports or rejects

2:20strategic and political orientations .

2:22The newspaper's orientation has a name :

2:24left-wing Zionism . Hegemonic in its

2:27columns , it consists in particular of

2:29defending the idea that Israel embodies

2:31a promise of equality and justice .

2:33Values flouted and trampled by a

2:35far-right government led by Benjamin

2:37Netanyahu . A very convenient picture ,

2:39but one that does not stand up to the

2:41facts and ignores the profoundly

2:42colonial , racist and therefore

2:44exterminating nature of the Zionist

2:45project . A symbol of this egalitarian

2:48utopia , the kibwes appear in many

2:50reports as oases of peace and refuges

2:52of brotherhood , regardless of whether

2:54their creation was based on the

2:56expulsion and plundering of Palestinian

2:58lands . Thus , far from waging an

3:01anti-colonialist and internationalist

3:03fight as he likes to proclaim , Maispart

3:04defends a line that could easily be

3:06described as Camusian . Yesterday in

3:09Algeria , today in Palestine , this

3:11policy makes morality and incantatory

3:12calls for peace its standard . It

3:15denounces the excesses , the drifts , the

3:17extremism and sometimes the crimes of

3:19an army and government to better save

3:21the essentials , the colonial system's

3:23life . Ultimately , it advocates a

3:25colonialism with a human face . It

3:27protests against the inequalities and

3:29injustices suffered by the oppressed .

3:31But it is implacable against them when

3:33they take up arms and use the

3:34legitimate and liberating violence

3:36available to any people crushed by

3:38colonial domination . Many may now be

3:40familiar with this illuminating and

3:42just and true phrase from our brother

3:44Youssef Bousuma . The proof is Palestine

3:46. Once again , Palestine has indeed

3:49served as a revelation . To accompany me

3:52today , to discuss all these questions

3:54with me , I am pleased to welcome

3:56Thierry Labica . Good morning .

3:58Good morning .

4:00Uh , you teach British studies at the

4:01University of Lanterre and are also a

4:03member of the editorial staff of

4:04Contetemps . Simon Assun , hello .

4:07Hello .

4:08Uh , you are an activist for colonialism

4:10and a member of TEDEC . And finally

4:12Yazid Arifi , from colonialism , a member

4:15of Parole d'honneur .

4:17Uh , so gentlemen , as you know , this

4:19round table , and I repeat , I remind you

4:22, is part of a larger program , uh ,

4:24soberly entitled " What is Mediapart the

4:27name of ? " where we will also discuss

4:30Mediapart's treatment of La France

4:33Insoumise , Mediapart's Atlanticism and

4:35other topics . But before going into the

4:40details of the topic that interests us

4:42today , I would like you to tell me

4:44briefly how you would describe , from a

4:46general point of view , in a few words ,

4:48Médiapart's treatment of the

4:50Palestinian question , Zionism , and

4:52anti-Semitism , and what place does this

4:54approach of Médiapart occupy in the

4:56global media system ?

5:01Simon , do you want to start ? That's it .

5:04Well ,

5:05listen , thank you for the invitation .

5:08Well , you have already answered this

5:10question in part anyway , because how

5:12can we describe Médiapart's political

5:14line on the question of the

5:15Israeli-Palestinian conflict ? It is

5:18that of left-wing Zionism , indeed . And

5:20to put it another way and try to

5:22develop a little bit what we can put

5:24behind it , what is a left-wing Zionist

5:26line ? Uh , I would say that , uh , the

5:29media coverage of this issue by the

5:31media is the progressive and biased

5:34erasure of the Palestinian as a

5:36political subject , and in favor of

5:38another discourse , uh , which is that of

5:40left-wing Zionism . So , what does this

5:44mean ? It translates into several rather

5:47heavy trends , and perhaps I'll digress

5:50a bit on the method we're going to use

5:52to try to read , dissect , and criticize

5:55the political line of the media part .

5:58Well , you did mention that we weren't

6:00criticizing the part in its entirety ,

6:02etc. , and that it's not a monolithic

6:04bloc . There are people who sometimes

6:06write good articles , good

6:07investigations , and there's room for

6:09maneuver internally . There are also

6:10internal divisions on this issue . But

6:13for us , it's mainly about criticizing

6:16one of the editorial choices , a

6:18political line , because it has

6:19implications , direct effects on

6:21political debate , public discussion in

6:24France . And for us , as activists , as

6:26political stakeholders , it obviously

6:28has effects on how we can intervene , on

6:30the balance of power , and so on . So

6:33that's the basis on which we're going

6:35to try to criticize Mediapart because

6:36it actually counts politically in what

6:38we're trying to push through by

6:39intervening politically . And the method

6:43is to identify the major trends , the

6:45things that come up regularly in

6:47editorial choices , in the choice of

6:49guests , in the orientations of articles

6:51, in what it will or will not share ,

6:53and to fully understand what it will

6:55choose to highlight . Well , there you

6:57have it , several things that come up a

6:59lot and that make me say that the

7:01Palestinian subject is being erased as

7:02a political subject . The first thing is

7:06the comparison of Palestinians and

7:08Israelis . This is something that comes

7:12up a lot in Médiaart's production ,

7:14including in Edoui Plénelv's speech : a

7:16form of " nini " ( ni ... Netaniaahu ) that is

7:18given to us as a framework for

7:20analyzing what is currently happening ,

7:22and then , behind this , and more

7:24problematically , a rejection of

7:25equality in the legitimacy of the

7:27Zionist project and the legitimacy of

7:29Palestinian national rights . This comes

7:32up a lot . We will perhaps clarify this

7:34later in the various articles and so on

7:36, but there is this aspect where the

7:38question would be to find the right

7:40balance between the legitimacy of the

7:42Israeli project , the Zionist project ,

7:44and the legitimacy of Palestinian

7:46national rights . That's the first thing

7:48we can criticize . The second thing is

7:50the predominance of the humanitarian

7:53issue in addressing what's happening in

7:55Gaza . Yes , what's happening in Gaza is

7:59terrible , but it's not enough as a

8:01political analysis . The third thing is

8:06the framing of the debate and the

8:08relegation of a Palestinian point of

8:11view , according to which Israel in its

8:14entirety is a colonial fact , in favor

8:16of a narrative that posits that there

8:22would be , then , only a recognition of

8:24the Israeli colonial fact , but which

8:26opposes a non-colonial way for Israel

8:29to continue to exist as such , and bad

8:31colonies , which would be the extremist

8:34ones , those of the Israeli messianic

8:36far right , which we will oppose to the

8:38previous colonies called the kibuds ,

8:40which are called the Mosaves , which

8:43were certainly built on a very

8:45different ideology . We were more into

8:47laborism , into something that referred

8:50to socialism and so on , but there is

8:52this thing of actually opposing the two

8:54. It was a bit better before . The

8:55colonies were better before . Today , it

8:57poses a problem because it is an

8:59extremist , religious and identity-based

9:01discourse . So that is what will

9:03actually translate into this erasure of

9:05the Palestinian narrative and the

9:06Palestinian point of view as a

9:07political subject . And so , and I will

9:10stop there for now , but what we will

9:12find a lot of is an approach that will

9:14criticize a decolonial approach . We

9:17find this explicitly in several

9:19articles in Mediapart . The decolonial

9:21approach is an approach that does not

9:23allow us to arrive at political

9:25solutions . It is a thesis that is

9:27nevertheless strong and that we find in

9:29particular in Joseph Confavreux . We

9:32will find the argument that original

9:35Zionism was above all a project aimed

9:37at building a refuge for Jews , as if it

9:40were something that had been present in

9:43the premises and origins of Zionism .

9:46While this is an idea that came much

9:47later in the history of Zionism and was

9:49mainly put forward after the Second

9:51World War or during the Second World

9:53War and especially afterwards . Thirdly ,

9:56well , the nini , I have already said it ,

10:00and then it will be after , uh , who is

10:03invited to Media Part . So , Media Part ,

10:06it is indeed going to invite

10:07Palestinian figures . It is not a

10:09question of saying that there are no

10:11Palestinian figures who are invited ,

10:13but these are figures that we can find

10:15in other newspapers , in other media

10:17organizations . Elias Sambar , the

10:20Palestinian ambassador , etc. , are

10:22figures that can be found invited to

10:24other settings . They are institutional

10:26figures . I'm not saying that their

10:27opinions aren't interesting or that

10:29they shouldn't be heard , but they are

10:30something that can be found elsewhere .

10:32Where Mediapart is supposed to have a

10:34specificity , and you've said it a bit ,

10:36is that Mediapart is a newspaper that

10:38takes a stand and opens its columns to

10:40debate , uh , between activists , to

10:41debate on the left between activists

10:43and between activists . And when we see

10:46which activists are invited alongside

10:48the major institutional figures , well ,

10:50we see a disappearance of Palestinian

10:53activists and activists , especially in

10:55the French context . An organization , a

10:58rather civil campaign like the boycott

11:00of investments , the boycott campaign is

11:02never invited by Mediapart . However , we

11:05remain within the framework of

11:06international law . And of course ,

11:08Urgence Palestine , which has been the

11:11main Palestinian activist organization

11:13since October 2023 , has also suffered

11:16not only from total invisibility , but

11:18on top of that , Médiapart relayed an

11:20op-ed before deleting it a few days

11:22later , calling for a boycott of Urgence

11:25Palestine in the midst of genocide . In

11:30addition to that , we are going to have

11:33a parable directed at activists and

11:35militants who claim either a form of

11:37left-wing Zionism or a label , a

11:39self-designation that they have made a

11:42political label , that of left-wing Jews

11:44. And we will go into more detail about

11:47that later . Uh Thierry , do you want to

11:50make a

11:51few comments because what Simon says is

11:53completely , completely , poses the

11:55problem . It seems to me that in this

11:59set of observations , we have texts from

12:03Mediapart , in particular , for example ,

12:06the treatment of the pain and anguish

12:09of an Israeli family between France ,

12:12Austria and the Kibut that was attacked

12:16and Tel Aviv . Uh , there is a kind of

12:20picture , at the same time , uh , how to

12:22say , uh , moral and compassionate , which

12:25can be justified by many aspects . I , I

12:27do not question that , but uh , in

12:29broader editorial conditions , which , uh

12:32, it seems to me , translate concretely

12:34and rhetorically what you are

12:36describing . Uh , so , we can perhaps come

12:39back to it and see what ... I do not want

12:42to be too allusive , but uh , we can go

12:44down , if you want , into the fine grain

12:47of the representation , the rhetoric ,

12:49the choice of terms to have a practical

12:51example , if you want , of what Simon is

12:54saying . Okay , the first thing is that

12:58the media are taking all the credit

12:59they can get , I don't want to deny them

13:01all of course . But anyway , we are still

13:05dealing with a general norm that is

13:07absolutely not up to the gravity of the

13:10situation . So that's where we can start

13:12. And that's the test , we could say

13:13there are several tests , but it's the

13:15Hindrajab test . How is it that all over

13:19the world this story was covered , even

13:21in the United States , even in news

13:24channels that we can't suspect of being

13:26exactly , how can I say , ardently

13:29pro-Alestinian . This issue was covered ,

13:32this story was treated with all that it

13:34implies , all the seriousness that it

13:36implies . Well , and even the mystery , we

13:38asked ourselves at that time , how come

13:39the Israeli soldiers didn't even think

13:41of carrying out a communication

13:42operation by saving this little girl ? I

13:44mean , that's good . Uh , so , we have ...

13:47And how ... And when we look at how this

13:49story wasn't covered in France until

13:51the film came out ... Well , in this

13:53setting , if I take this example here —

13:56but the people listening to us can

13:58choose their own examples , but it's ...

14:00if we take this example here as a

14:02paradigm , where is Médiapart situated

14:04in this ... in this ... in this ... in this

14:06setting here , in this ... in this

14:08landscape here ? So , it seems to me that

14:13there are all sorts of effects that I

14:15consider to be screen effects , where ,

14:17ultimately , the foundation of the story

14:20, which governs the story that we hear ,

14:22which is like this , which is broadcast

14:25through this channel , remains an

14:27eminently moral foundation . And by the

14:30way , there is a text by Plenel , which

14:33is somewhat of an inaugural statement ,

14:35the day after October 7 , in which he

14:37himself highlights the moral issue

14:39first . And then , we are on the

14:42post-Raelian front , so in this logic of

14:48Israel's right to defend itself , which

14:50is an absolutely ignominious capture of

14:51the Palestinians ' right to defend

14:53themselves . When does this formula

14:56become almost provocative ? It has been

14:59enshrined in international law for

15:01decades , and so on and so forth . And if

15:04we just look at the situation in the

15:06occupied territories , which includes

15:08Gaza , of course , not even since 1948 or

15:101967 but since 2000 to 2021 , from

15:12Shirjara to the bombings that took

15:14place , the number of deaths and

15:16children killed in the occupied

15:18territories up to October 6 , 2023 , was

15:20the highest since the second intifada .

15:23At what point do we talk about that ? At

15:25what point do we , well , obviously , the

15:28other basic element is that October 7th

15:30is the beginning of everything , and I

15:32don't see any interesting renegotiation

15:35of this element of language , this

15:37element of representation and this

15:39sequencing . So at times we can say , " Oh

15:42yes , the occupation is . " No , no , we

15:46have to talk about things precisely , as

15:48precisely as we do for an Israeli

15:50family who experienced a terrible

15:52trauma with October 7th . And then , we

15:56have the element of Israel , the only

15:58democracy in the region , and this is

16:00what Simon says : basically before ,

16:01before Netanyahu — but when was it ,

16:03before Netanyahu ? In fact , it goes back

16:0630 years before Netanyahu , and even in

16:08the 80s , Netanyahu was , if my memory

16:10serves me correctly , Israel's

16:12ambassador to the UN and was already

16:14drafting these first programmatic texts

16:16for the fight against terrorism that

16:18form the roadmap for what we have

16:19before us . So there is a great deal of

16:22consistency in the policy of this

16:24central figure in Israeli power , not

16:27since 2023 , not for about forty years .

16:30So the whole idea that October 7th

16:32would be a threshold , yes , it is a

16:34threshold given what happened

16:36afterwards , given that we have the

16:38impression that the wars of 2009 , 2012 ,

16:402014 in comparison were quite appalling

16:42affairs . Now , we have changed , we have

16:45changed the order of magnitude . And

16:48there is this idea , this recurring

16:50thing that yes , we can criticize Israel

16:52. Yes , that's fine . If we say that

16:54Netanyahu and his government , Smotrich

16:56Ben Gevir , are the most right-wing in

16:58history , then ... We know all that . I'm

17:01listing it . I know that between us and

17:03the people listening are familiar , but

17:05it seems to me from what I've seen . So

17:08if someone tells me I'm wrong , well ,

17:10I'll gladly accept it . But it seems to

17:13me that we have the basic elements of

17:15language that in no way differentiate

17:17this media , which is positioned on the

17:19left for many people , from the

17:20narrative , from the general consensus

17:22narrative . However , it's all these

17:24elements that need to be radically

17:25challenged . If I just take this last

17:28example , the last example of Netanyahu ,

17:29the most right-wing government in its

17:31history . A few years ago , Aeledet

17:34Shaked and Miri Regef wrote such

17:36abominable things . Members of the

17:40Netanyahu government , during the

17:42Israeli institutional confusion of the

17:44entire recent period , said things , to

17:46take just these examples , which were

17:49just as appalling as what's happening

17:51here . So obviously , each step prepares

17:55the ground and creates the conditions

17:58for , how to say , the exacerbation of

18:00what will happen next , in words and in

18:02deeds . But we can go back in the

18:05history of the State of Israel without

18:07any problem . And I just want to say ,

18:09even on the issue of genocide , there

18:12are episodes that go completely under

18:15the radar , but there was a genocide in

18:17Guatemala in the 80s under the aegis of

18:20the fanatical evangelical president

18:23RioMch . Uh ,

18:25Israel ,

18:26who supplied the weapons , who supplied

18:28the advisers , who supplied the

18:29logistics , huh , who did that ? So the

18:32experience of genocide itself is not a

18:34born one . Not only do we say , " Oh okay ,

18:36maybe there was a genocide , " even

18:38Delphineviller said , " Oh , if Grosman

18:39says it , then maybe I should say it too

18:41. " Okay , but as if it were not a state

18:44that , in its history , with or without

18:47Labor in power , supported the South

18:49African party when there was an almost

18:52global consensus for the genocide of

18:54indigenous people in Guatemala . I mean ,

18:57we're in a long history . Netanyahu is

18:59not the most right-wing . So when I hear

19:02that , if you like , it becomes almost

19:04instinctive because I think we're in a

19:07logic of denial , we're in a grammar of

19:09negationism . And if we don't question

19:12these terms with historical factual

19:14elements , I'll go through a character

19:16like Fab Sar who is doing his

19:17investigation on Sarkozy , or very well ,

19:19very well , very well . He prides himself

19:23on being rigorous about the facts and

19:25having journalistic ethics . So less

19:27when they cross the threshold on the

19:29register of concern if they say it and

19:31so on , we will surely come back to it

19:33but suddenly the facts seem less

19:35important . Well , the whole Barbara

19:37episode that we will talk about is

19:39really the quite glaring example of

19:41this story . But uh , but there you have

19:44it , if we do not have a serious factual

19:46historical approach , well we remain in

19:49a framework of , in a story with these

19:51basic elements and references that

19:53govern it , uh , which uh , prevent , uh ,

19:55afterwards , we can have all the

19:57rhetorical and compassionate

19:58arrangements to say : " Ah the

20:00Palestinians , I mean well , they are

20:02dying in droves , it's terrible , but as

20:04long as they continue .

20:07As long as they continue to die in

20:08droves in truth . " Well , I might say it

20:10a bit cruelly , but that's exactly how

20:12it happens in truth .

20:14And how do you analyze , how do you see

20:18the positioning of Media Part ? I was

20:21talking about the overall media system ,

20:22but particularly on the left with other

20:24media outlets like Libération , which

20:25sometimes also write articles

20:27denouncing Lesiaou . What difference ,

20:29what nuance do you see with this type

20:32of media ? So actually , well , following

20:34on from what you've already said ,

20:36Thierry and Simon , I think it's

20:37important to say that overall ,

20:39especially because of the contrast

20:40effect when you compare it to what's

20:42produced

20:43by the entire French journalistic scene

20:45, which is still relatively unrelated ,

20:47right ?

20:48Uh , because of the contrast effect , I

20:49sometimes read a lot of interesting

20:51things at Media Part on economics , for

20:52example , Martine Orange : she produced

20:54analysts who are interesting on lots of

20:55specific situations . Sometimes , in

20:57addition , they have a network of logo

20:59partners who allow to also read

21:01interesting things about the situations

21:03in Africa and the Maghreb . And so , in

21:06terms of the seriousness and

21:07credibility of what is produced , we can

21:09learn good things about Mediapart . I

21:12read and listen carefully . Having said

21:16that , I still like to come back to it .

21:19Maybe I'll take a little detour , I

21:20won't talk specifically about the issue

21:21of Shiiteism and Israel more generally .

21:23Anyway , we'll have time to talk about

21:24it . Yeah , yeah ,

21:25yeah , of course . But anyway , we'll get

21:26to that with what I'm going to say .

21:27What is Mediapart's historical DNA ? It

21:31was to want to build a media adventure

21:34that was outside the constraints of

21:36billionaire shareholders of the

21:38bourgeoisie . They're not afraid of that

21:40, you know , that's how they put

21:41themselves forward . And I think that in

21:43the The media landscape that we would

21:45describe as independent in the sense

21:47that it does not depend on a Boloré or

21:50a Saadé or people like that , in my

21:52opinion , it is certainly the most

21:54visible body . I may be wrong , but it

21:57seems to me that in any case in the

21:58landscape , whether it is the written

22:00press or even the audiovisual press , uh

22:02, the media that has the most

22:03visibility and therefore the most

22:05impact — we will probably come to that ,

22:07huh , on the real debates that we can

22:09have , particularly on the left — is —

22:11mediapart , and they clearly assume this

22:12position . And objectively , it ... it's

22:14true , I mean , there is no lie in saying

22:16that there is no major owner of

22:17mediapart , there are no major

22:19shareholders who are going to do what ,

22:20do what , and who are going to tell them

22:22that they have to appoint such and such

22:24a person . It is not an angle that we

22:25can use to attack them , for example , as

22:27like others . Absolutely , absolutely .

22:29But then , you have to take them at

22:30their word . That is to say , they are

22:32telling you that they , how can I put it

22:33, they consider themselves to be an

22:35independent newspaper and so they are

22:36going to take a position , I think they

22:38assume it , which is against power ,

22:40against power , against hegemony , and so

22:41on . And that will also give rise to

22:44what you were saying earlier , that is

22:45to say that you are going to have a

22:46Fabricarfi that will be able to produce

22:48very in-depth investigations . I think

22:49that they are the only ones who have

22:50really done this in-depth work

22:52on the Sarkozy affair , for example .

22:53There are others , and there have been

22:55many other affairs . I think that in

22:58fact , their positioning and the fact of

23:01wanting , how can I put it , to highlight

23:04, their independence from the powers of

23:06money must necessarily be associated

23:09with a bias that is undoubtedly

23:11philosophical and which is the

23:14provocative one , but which is

23:16practically the one used by liberals

23:18like Friedrichek . That is to say , it is

23:21really the question of methodological

23:22individualism . And so they will explain

23:24a certain number of things , they will

23:26explain social phenomena by the

23:27behavior of individuals , by the

23:29morality of people . And this is

23:31precisely what causes them , on a whole

23:33host of subjects , to have a tendency to

23:35focus their attention primarily on

23:37those behaviors that are deviant . For

23:40example , on the case of sexist and

23:42sexual violence , it's obvious , you see :

23:44they will write you , they will write

23:47you 35 articles , 60 articles on Patrick

23:49Bruel , Gard Perdu , to explain to you in

23:51great detail how these people , these

23:53people , uh , behave in a way of

23:55domination , of predation towards ,

23:57towards the women who accuse them . It

23:59will be the same for Sarkozy , it will

24:01be the same overall for all the cases

24:02of probity . This systematic desire , you

24:06see , to analyze the political landscape

24:08and behaviors as individual phenomena ,

24:11as faults that can be corrected .

24:15Corrected how ? Thanks to the

24:16investigative work done by Méiapart in

24:18particular and therefore thanks to the

24:19defense of probity . And so what does

24:21that do ? What is the immediate

24:22consequence at the political level ?

24:24That in fact you take for granted the

24:26structures in which people move , the

24:29rules of the game that will make people

24:31do what they do and you will simply

24:33find it unfortunate and sad that some

24:36people are really far right and really

24:38mean . But we must not forget that on

24:40the other hand , there are also other

24:42people who are far left and who will be

24:44very mean and very violent . And that is

24:46what will make it difficult for you ,

24:48for example , to discern the qualitative

24:50difference that there can be between

24:51liberation organizations , in this case

24:53Palestinian or Lebanese , and the

24:57Zionist power , you see , and its Western

24:59support , you see . That is to say , there

25:01are qualitative differences that you

25:02cannot ignore if you are going to see a

25:03political analysis of the thing . It

25:05will be the same . So , it will be

25:06addressed in another program . It will

25:09be the same on the issues of

25:10Atlanticism , you see . And not

25:11perceiving the qualitative difference

25:13that there is in the organization of

25:15power on a global scale between , uh ,

25:18the American pole and the rest of the

25:20world . And so in this case , the people

25:22that Média part does not like , the

25:23Russians , the Syrians , the Venezuelans

25:25and so on and so forth , not perceiving ,

25:26you see , that there is a qualitative

25:28difference that means that you cannot

25:29analyze them on the same level . It

25:32prevents you , you see , from moving the

25:34debate forward in the right direction

25:36and from asking yourself questions

25:37about the causes that cause the

25:39terrible effects that we are talking

25:41about today to occur . There are , you

25:44see , the The effects we're talking

25:45about here have causes . So , I think

25:48that's really the starting point for an

25:50in-depth analysis of what mediapart is .

25:53It's this question , you see , from this

25:58point of view that you're going to

25:59think about how they're going to deal

26:01with all the subjects .

26:02Exactly . And I think that's how it

26:04comes across very well in the

26:05individual positions , particularly on

26:07social networks , of someone like Plenel

26:08because in fact he's speaking his own

26:10mind . But how can he be media ?

26:14As the creator and founder of

26:15Mediaapart , you see , he has an

26:17important role in defining Mediaapart's

26:19DNA and its positions . You were talking

26:22about it earlier in Barbara Bouch's

26:24club , uh , it's systematically — and

26:26this is what strikes me — it's

26:27systematically positions of righting

26:29wrongs , you see , of righting wrongs . of

26:31, of referee , you see , we count the

26:33points , of refereeing elegance even in

26:34fact , you see . And it's a trend that we

26:36see at work quite recurrently , whatever

26:39the cases , you see . And I think that

26:41it's from there that we can really have

26:43an analysis of what is produced as work

26:45by media , by journalistic work and of

26:47these objective political limits , you

26:49know .

26:50Listen Yas , you've laid the foundations

26:52. I would like us to go back , if you

26:54don't mind . I talked , we talked earlier

26:57about being revealing , and what could

26:59be more revealing than the way in which

27:01the media in general , but Médiart in

27:03particular , treated October 7 , how they

27:05positioned themselves vis - à - vis the

27:07event of October 7. And it's true that

27:09when I went back to the articles

27:11written in the first few days after

27:13October 7 , I noticed that , to describe

27:15the events , uh — and I thought that was

27:17important for a newspaper that likes to

27:19present oneself as extremely rigorous ,

27:21ethical , and so on — beyond the

27:25positions taken , beyond the terms that

27:27we will analyze later , there is already

27:29the fact of using sources , of quoting

27:31statements from people or organizations

27:33that can legitimately be considered

27:35very problematic . For example , we

27:38quoted Media Partite , for example , a

27:40journalist from the I24 News channel

27:42Maë Belloniel . Now , I don't know much

27:45about this type of journalism , but the

27:46organization I work for , I24 News ,

27:48still rings a bell . He quotes a major

27:52general , Ita Virof , or the words of the

27:54ineffable Colonel Olivier Afovic , who

27:56quotes him : " What is currently

27:58happening in Israel , so it was on

28:00October 8 or 9 , is the discovery of the

28:02atrocity of the massacre committed over

28:05two days by the Islamist terrorists of

28:07Hamas in the carnage of the Kibou de

28:09Berry . Hundreds of men , women and

28:12children were killed . massacred , torn

28:13to pieces , beheaded by men mad with

28:15hatred . " This was repeated in about ten

28:17places in Israel . Three sources that

28:19had , we remember , taken up and

28:21broadcast the famous story , you

28:22remember , of babies , dismembered , put

28:23in ovens and so on and so forth . How do

28:27you explain , or how , gentlemen , that a

28:30newspaper , as I was saying , making an

28:32effort , uh , to question the ethics of

28:34journalistic rigor and so on , could

28:36take up such sources , including those

28:39emanating from the army , an institution

28:41known for its repeated lies , its

28:43cynical and grotesque manipulations . I

28:47would like to refer to an article that

28:49Le Monde published a few days ago on

28:51precisely the way in which the Israeli

28:53army uses propaganda and so on to each

28:55time describe all the Palestinian dead

28:58as Hamas terrorists or relatives of

29:00Hamas terrorists . How do you perceive

29:03this , Thierry ? Perhaps to start ,

29:07how do I perceive it ? Listen , uh , there

29:12is a practice of journalistic work that

29:14I am not familiar with and its

29:16conditions and rhythm . So , there are ...

29:19I had a few things to say about what

29:21you were saying about the quality that

29:23can be that of media work ; it was

29:25important that you mention it and that

29:27creates the conditions for which we

29:29consider it necessary , well , that I , to

29:31have this discussion here . We are not

29:35talking about the JDD or current values

29:37. Yes , everything . Or even liberation

29:39or you see people like that .

29:40Yes . Yes .

29:42Uh well , uh but not so I don't want to ,

29:44I want to , I want to , I'm going to try

29:46to say a few words about your question

29:48and then I might say all this again ,

29:50the return of the question of left-wing

29:52Zionism . Uh but listen to me , I just

29:54read the three episodes of what Ar sur

29:57image produced on the Barbara Bouche

30:00episode . And what do I say , what does

30:02this analysis say , which is really

30:04essential ? I think you really need to

30:06read what Product Stop Image wrote

30:08about this case . Well , if I understood

30:11correctly , the analysis of Méia Part ,

30:14to say just that , Méia Part's analysis

30:17is based on police sources , the city

30:20hall and Barbara Bouch herself . And so ,

30:26and so , we are immersed in a moment of

30:29absolutely terrible hysteria and , as if

30:31we had learned nothing from what was

30:34happening , the episodes that you

30:36mentioned , I mean : the way Israel

30:38communicated , how it was linked after

30:40October 7 with the deluge of lies .

30:44Things were serious enough as it was .

30:46So obviously , we add to it because the

30:48absolutization of the enemy and the

30:50preparation for its systematic

30:51elimination requires this type of

30:53escalation . But when we , when we

30:56reproduce that , well , we are in a logic

30:59of absolutization of the adversary . And

31:02when we are called Mediapart , having

31:04several years of experience in creating

31:06moral panic , whether it was around Rima

31:08Hassan , whether it was — I mean , we

31:10have plenty of examples — whether it

31:12was around the Amsterdam episode , the

31:14Makabi football in Amsterdam , la la la ,

31:16the torrent of gossip that was poured

31:18out about it and that was debunked , as

31:20they say , very , very quickly , huh ... I

31:22think that only France Culture didn't

31:24notice . Well , it's not just France

31:27Culture , but France Culture , in

31:28particular , among apparently

31:30respectable organizations , that's what

31:31sets a precedent . There are 2000 ,

31:33there are an absolutely considerable

31:35number of precedents

31:36on the Israeli army , I mean . So , if you

31:38like , in the way I see it , I see it as

31:41a form of abandonment of critical

31:45vigilance . The fact of relying on

31:49official sources that become the

31:51sources , and in fact , the fact of

31:53contesting them being established as

31:55the norm almost universally , Disputing

31:57them becomes almost a conspiracy theory

32:00position , when in fact it is a

32:02fact-checking position . Just read the

32:06three investigative episodes of Arrêt

32:07sur image which are absolutely ... I

32:09regret not being able to mention the

32:10name of the author of this who did an

32:12absolutely magnificent job . But so we

32:17are still in the realm of ...

32:19Safaris .

32:20Yes .

32:20Elodie Safaris .

32:21Absolutely . There you go . Thank you .

32:22Thank you . And thank you especially

32:24because it is a huge , huge job . Uh uh

32:26so we are in this logic of following

32:41suit where we can't say that on this

32:46issue , uh uh mediapartne , uh ... Well , I

32:54don't wear any . It turns out that I

32:57don't live there , so I prefer not to

32:59say that they should have acted like

33:00that . But that said , we are in these

33:03conditions and so when we move into the

33:05type of narrative that you described in

33:07the case of Israel and Palestine , we

33:09are in a logic and a narrative of

33:11absolutization of the enemy . And when

33:13we are in the French national context ,

33:15we are in the consensus of

33:17absolutization of the political

33:19adversary who are called girls

33:21and with the effects , so we will talk

33:23about it , but it is not just an aspect

33:25of the political debate , it is that it

33:27produces concrete effects . It produces

33:29concrete effects . I will give the

33:30specific examples that I am thinking of

33:32in a moment .

33:33Yeah , because I will come back to what

33:35you just said and the way in which he

33:37used these sources . But it is not only

33:40that and I will ask you about it , Simon

33:42, it is that not only do they use

33:43sources but they will also using terms .

33:47Uh , I'm thinking of an extremely

33:48serious term , extremely loaded

33:50symbolically , historically , the term

33:52pogrom . Uh , or for example also , uh , in

33:55one of Rashida Lazouzi's articles where

33:58the term , we use the term 9/11 in

34:00Israel . What is quite , uh , with the

34:03words " gu " and " gu " in

34:04quotation marks , what is quite

34:05interesting , is that these are often

34:07terms that are used in quotation marks

34:09but which are not attributed to anyone

34:11but which are ultimately used by

34:12putting them in the body of the article

34:14. So it's quite perverse , it must be

34:16said , in the way that there is

34:17a source .

34:18Yes . But except that the source is not

34:19cited ,

34:20where is it ?

34:20There you go . In short , but by using

34:22them in the body of the text , it's as

34:23if they have been validated . Okay , on

34:25these terms , Simon and then Yazi ,

34:28you'll come back to that . Just before ,

34:32three things to answer your first

34:34question , to understand how it is that

34:36Méapar can use tacit agreement , etc. ,

34:38etc. Uh , in three points , the first

34:40thing is that Israel-Palestine , the

34:42Israeli-Palestinian issue in France is

34:45not just any political issue . What I

34:48mean is that in terms of the political

34:50implications , in terms of the place

34:52that this issue occupies in political

34:54relations in France , well , Israel and

34:57Palestine are not the same issue as

34:59Taiwan and China , for example , which do

35:01not have the same effects on political

35:03debate in France . Following that ,

35:06Médiapart is not a newspaper without

35:08political pretensions , and they have

35:10every right and it is legitimate to

35:12have a political pretension when you

35:14are a newspaper . I think that there are

35:16no newspapers that do not have a

35:17political pretension in reality .

35:20Médiapart claims to frame the debate

35:22in a certain way , at least on the left ,

35:24and to be the reference for the left in

35:26political debate in France . And the

35:29third point , three points that must be

35:31taken together , is that the line

35:33Mediapart's policy , there is one , and

35:35that is peace . Peace without extremists

35:38, but also peace without decolonization

35:41. Why ? Because , uh , in what emerges

35:44from the major articles or major

35:46interventions that we can read on

35:48Mediapart , uh , it is that defending , uh

35:51, this is a quote from an article by

35:54Joseph Confavreux and Caroline Foutau ,

35:56I think . uh , Karine Futo , sorry , uh , it

36:01is that defending the end of the State

36:04of Israel is not realistic , that a

36:07colonial approach is an approach that

36:10prevents any political outcome . And

36:14just from the comparison with Algeria

36:15to say that it will be , well , indeed ,

36:17which are also based on , in my opinion

36:19in any case , historical errors , uh ,

36:20like the one saying that the French

36:22colonists were expelled manu militarily

36:24, uh , I quote the article , which is

36:25already historically false , which does

36:27not mean that there is There was no

36:31flight , no departure under external

36:34pressure . There is no problem , but

36:36there was no expulsion of a state

36:38policy or of the FLN

36:39or does it refer to the

36:41same thing , on the contrary , in fact ,

36:43in reality , it is even the opposite

36:45that occurred in the agreements of the

36:47viant , there is even , it is even

36:49planned in fact , so here is the line in

36:51fact of M ... I quoted this article by de

36:53Confavé , by Karine Futo , because it is

36:55a fairly pure example in fact , well ,

36:57and what is interesting is that there

36:59is no contradiction in seeing this

37:00political line there while recognizing

37:02that Israel is inferior to colonialism .

37:05There is even an article where Eddie

37:07Plenel Edw Plenel recognizes that Hamas

37:10is a component of the Palestinian

37:11national movement . Uh , so , that does

37:14not prevent him from referring back to

37:16back , but there are ... We find , in fact ,

37:18elements like that , but which are put

37:20to the service of a political

37:21perspective which is that of the

37:23two-state solution , which must go

37:24through the mediation of international

37:26organizations , as if it were a neutral

37:28field , a field that will be somewhat

37:30outside of history , a somewhat separate

37:32body . So that's why , in my opinion , we

37:36find this type of contradiction , this

37:39type of reference in Mediapart . And as

37:43you said , Yazid , it does indeed pose a

37:45serious problem for us , as activists ,

37:47because Mediapart , by virtue of its

37:49position , by virtue of its function ,

37:51actually impacts the conditions in

37:53which we intervene , the conditions in

37:55which we campaign . As for Mediapart , we

37:59give the floor to a discourse that aims

38:02to say that being anti-Zionist is more

38:04or less a form of anti-Semitism by

38:06giving the floor to a Jonas Pardo , an

38:08Arialmi or almost , well , we could even

38:10put Vincent Lemire in the basket . And

38:13well , it has effects on us when we

38:15intervene politically . It has effects

38:18when we are faced with bans on public

38:20meetings and demonstrations . For

38:26anti-Semitism , it has an effect , so it

38:28is indeed a huge problem and we need to

38:30be able to confront it . MediaPart

38:32thinks that it is a deliberate effect

38:34on those who , I think , have an assumed

38:36political line . I am not saying that

38:38MediaPart or the big pens of MediaPart

38:40are not aware of what they are doing or

38:43that it would be something that would

38:44have almost no political meaning . I

38:46take them seriously . I think that they

38:48are trained people . They are people who

38:49know what they are doing . They have

38:51every right to have their ideas , there

38:52is no problem . But they have this

38:54political line and we must be able to

38:56have the right to criticize them on

38:57that basis and to take them seriously

38:59on that

38:59because it does involve censorship .

39:01That is not insignificant .

39:02It involves censorship because it will

39:04cause political positions to retreat .

39:06Finally , we know that on the left , one

39:08of the discussions is whether it is

39:10Zionism or anti-Zionism , for example ?

39:12Is it legitimate to be anti-Zionist ? Do

39:14we have the right not to be in favor of

39:16the two-state solution but in favor of

39:18other types of solutions , etc. ? It has

39:20an impact . These are things that are

39:22important to us . These are things that

39:23we want to push politically because the

39:28lives of millions of people depend on

39:29them in some way . Well , not on us , I

39:31mean , on this subject . And so , yes , it

39:34has an impact , it goes beyond the scope

39:36of legitimate debate , of positions that

39:39we find legitimate , and that's where

39:41Média starts , the boundary between

39:43Média Part and other media outlets

39:45like Le Monde , Libération , etc. Well ,

39:48it's blurred . I mean , I found some

39:52excellent articles in Le Monde or in

39:54Libération on the subject recently on

39:56Jordan or Gaza and so on . Yeah .

39:59There you go . So what's the difference ?

40:01There you go . You just wanted to , and

40:03I'll go ahead , I'll let you do it

40:06because it's based on what Simon said .

40:08Do you remember what Simon started

40:11saying at the very beginning about this

40:15story of the erasure of Jewish

40:17plurality ? Well , political plurality ,

40:21moral plurality , cultural plurality .

40:24Whatever you want . Well , I'm talking

40:26about the question of left-wing Zionism

40:28because it makes me want to go back a

40:30little bit , but in connection with the

40:32discussion we're having right now .

40:35First , there's a tradition of left-wing

40:37Zionism . So often we say , " Oh , but that

40:39doesn't count because they were , they

40:40were , these were very minority

40:41traditions . Well , they existed , they

40:43can be considered when you're in very

40:45minority political organizations , you

40:47don't want to be told , well , actually ,

40:49you don't count . " Well , fortunately ,

40:50there are people who defend positions

40:52even in a very minority way . Well , uh ,

40:54the Schlomo there in a state for people

40:57recently , the recent book made a

40:59beautiful story of that where on

41:01Zionism was to humanism is a very

41:03beautiful book . It refers to moral and

41:07political traditions that reached a

41:09point of impasse and ultimately

41:11encountered failure . But what I think

41:14is that it seems to me — and I'm not an

41:17expert on this subject , but I can still

41:20suggest this — that in some very

41:22minority Zionist orientations of the

41:25past , we have the ingredients of

41:27contemporary anti-Zionism , that is to

41:29say , people who felt completely

41:31betrayed by an initial project that was

41:34a project of socialist cohabitation or

41:37whatever . Today , we find this among

41:40people like those who were Zionists ,

41:42who sometimes wore the uniform , Anthony

41:44Lerman , Aubert Bartov and so on . Well ,

41:46and who today paint the picture they

41:48paint of Israel , which is quite a

41:50damning picture in truth . Well , and

41:53which also refers to personal histories

41:56of ideals . So from an outside

41:58perspective , we can say that from the

42:00start the project looked bad . Okay , but

42:03we can consider that people were

42:05sincere at a given time and a period

42:08after 1945 when colonialism was not

42:10really a problem for a large part of

42:13the left . So , you could say that

42:17today's left-wing Zionism could claim

42:19ancient heritages that were minority

42:22but honorable , and so on . I don't hear

42:25any of that , having read a lot of the

42:27prose of Golem and JR and others to

42:31talk about the most radical ones . I

42:34don't see any reference to any aspect

42:36of that tradition . A political

42:40organization will generally possess a

42:42program , a heritage , and it also

42:44maintains specific internal procedures .

42:46Well , on the question of heritage , I

42:48don't see anything at all . So , uh , on

42:51the subject of erasure , what is

42:53interesting is the way in which , uh ,

42:55Plenel , Louis Plenel and others , uh ,

42:57denounce the essentialization , uh , the

42:59essentialization of Jews , the

43:01essentialization of Barbara Bouch as ,

43:03uh , for her physical appearance , for

43:06her , uh , her sexual orientation , for

43:08her , for her , for her religious or

43:10cultural affiliation , and so on and so

43:12forth . Now , when we do this kind of

43:16sorting , you talked about erasure or

43:18sorting , uh , well , we produce , uh , a

43:20completely artificial and politically

43:22homogenized image of what the audible

43:24point of view on Israel and the Jews is

43:26. But it turns out that , uh , Jews have

43:29as much right , well , it seems to me , as

43:32much right , it seems to me , I am quite

43:34convinced , to political diversity as

43:36anyone else . But this diversity simply

43:39disappears or has the greatest

43:41difficulty existing . Uh , I think at the

43:44beginning on Mediapart , where there was

43:46a representative of Cédec facing three

43:49people who were not identified properly

43:51, or not at all , and that was the only

43:53concession made to a point of view that

43:56would be Jewish , colonial , etc. , etc.

43:58And so in fact we have a de facto logic

44:00of essentialization of what the audible

44:03and valid position of what the Jewish

44:05point of view is on Jewish issues ,

44:07Israel , etc. , etc. So it's difficult to

44:11denounce the essentializations that the

44:13left and the anti-Zionist left would

44:14proceed to , while practicing this kind

44:16of erasure , this kind of sorting . In

44:19fact , I'm not in favor of sorting

44:21anyone , really . Uh , well , that's what

44:25we see here , that's the type of

44:27operation that we see when we put

44:29forward a whole series of characters

44:32that Simon mentioned , to the detriment

44:34of a diversity of points of view that

44:37corresponds to the diversity of points

44:39of view in society in general . On this

44:44issue , Israel , Palestine , the Middle

44:47East , anti-Semitism , it seems that

44:49there is a position that is destined to

44:51saturate the debate .

44:55Yazil , I was just speaking earlier

44:57about the specific terms used by

45:01Médiapart to characterize the events

45:03of October 7th . I was talking about the

45:06term " pogrom " , which has a very fraught

45:09history . I was talking about the term "

45:12Israeli September 11th " . So it's also a

45:13way of positioning oneself in a form of

45:15clash of civilizations . Uh , sometimes

45:18even in certain articles , I see this

45:19turning point in history where the

45:21Jewish people understood that they were

45:23no longer safe in Israel . So as if

45:26October 7 was an attack against the

45:27Jewish people in their entirety . How do

45:30you analyze this kind of reference

45:33taken up by Media Part ?

45:36So , I'm going to pick up on what I was

45:39saying earlier about , you know , Media

45:41Part as the main independent left-wing

45:44media outlet , okay ? Which claims to be

45:49such , to which we must associate what I

45:51was saying earlier about its

45:53philosophical creed , which is really

45:55that of methodological individualism ,

45:57you have this creed of righting wrongs ,

46:00of arbitrating elegance and therefore ,

46:02in the last resort , of accepting the

46:04French and world order as it is ; an

46:06order that is considered legitimate and

46:08in which , in fact , people have a

46:10vocation to behave in a moral and good

46:12manner . Okay ? That's the general

46:16position . These two elements of the

46:18equation , when you put them against the

46:20state of the world , which is a state of

46:22the world that is now clearly untenable

46:24due to its injustices and the

46:25atrocities it can cause . Of course ,

46:28we're talking about Israel and

46:29Palestine , but more generally . I mean ,

46:31it could be Iran , the looming financial

46:34crisis , the exploding inequalities , and

46:37so on . A world that is relatively

46:42overheated . When you put individual and

46:46methodological independence in the face

46:48of this world and ultimately position

46:50yourself as an actor who has no

46:52vocation to think of another way of

46:54living , another way of organizing

46:56social relations , it will put you in

46:58the position , whether you like it or

47:00not , of opposition that we will

47:02describe as moderating , controlling and

47:04, therefore , in situations of very

47:06acute conflict , you will find yourself

47:08on the side of the dominant , you see .

47:12And that is what will explain ...

47:14Something that strikes me a lot , you

47:15see , in the positions taken by the Plen

47:17but also by a certain number of fairly

47:19important figures at Mediapart , is the

47:20speed with which , in certain situations

47:22, they will embrace the official

47:24discourse ,

47:26whereas on the other hand , you see ,

47:28they are also capable of contesting it

47:30quite virulently . The Sarkozy case is

47:32emblematic , you see . How is it that ,

47:35for example , after October 7th or in

47:37the case of the Barbarabouche affair ,

47:39how is it that he is so

47:41quick and nimble , you see , to jump on

47:43the official version , you see , because

47:45that's another subject ... Can you

47:46imagine Média embracing the police

47:48version of the prefecture with so much

47:50enthusiasm and writing an article about

47:51other subjects , whatever they may be ,

47:53you see , the mega-baskets ?

47:56Police violence , anything ? It's

47:58not possible . So , you see , in fact , as

48:01you , as Simon was saying , I think that

48:03here we are on a subject that is

48:04particularly sensitive in France and on

48:07which we are going to reach degrees of

48:09hysteria in the debate that make it

48:11difficult to remain in this position of

48:13arbiter and you will find yourself at

48:15some point having to take a position

48:17one way or another . And when the

48:21position is to say that the order in

48:23which people are agitating is

48:24ultimately legitimate and that people

48:26simply have to behave well , well when

48:28you find yourself in moments of intense

48:30protest , you know , of that kind ? You're

48:33going to

48:34find yourself on the wrong side , you

48:35know . Well , because of the dominant

48:37side . And that's what explains , in my

48:39opinion , the way in which they embrace

48:43the official versions , you know , in a

48:45way that's almost , you know ,

48:46a

48:47Pavlovian way , not sometimes . Whereas

48:48on subjects that are , let's say , less

48:50controversial and less dangerous from a

48:52political point of view , they're going

48:54to be able , you know , to take a step

48:55back . That's what we expect after all

48:57from a newspaper or a journalist ,

48:58especially a journalist who claims to

48:59be left-wing and especially a

49:00journalist who claims to be independent

49:01and so on . It means taking a step back

49:04from the official versions , which are

49:05well-known in France and elsewhere to

49:07be full of lies , you know . It seems to

49:11me that this is a basic reflex of

49:13journalistic ethics . The fact that you

49:16are not able to do this in situations

49:18like this , where the debate is

49:20hysterical , for me , is indicative of

49:22the fact that , ultimately , you are one

49:24of the components of the legitimate

49:26media order ,

49:28you know .

49:29Yeah . No , I was just going to ask you ,

49:33and sorry , to follow up on what you

49:35were saying and to return to the terms

49:37that were used , is there a form of ,

49:40when the media uses these terms — a

49:42form of embarking on a form of sacred

49:44union , of , of using the terms " like

49:46Beaugrom " , of using the terms like "

49:48Sacred Union " , uh , like " September 11 " ,

49:51of participating in a form of sacred

49:53union , uh ...

49:56behind Israel , there are , how can I say

49:59, it's , sorry , but it's

50:01not a simple condemnation of terrorism ,

50:03you see , of course , a

50:04mobilization of emotions that is very

50:05strong .

50:06Yes . They are still

50:07words that carry expressions , that's

50:10why they have

50:11emotional charges with which it's not

50:13discussed or or or it's or

50:16in any case it creates conditions for

50:17entering into

50:20an informed discussion that is more

50:22difficult than easier . And the fact of

50:25using these expressions in quotation

50:27marks as you pointed out without citing

50:29the source is also a way of pushing the

50:30limits . So , I made a small catalog of

50:34the basic expressions that govern

50:38October 7 , the right to defend oneself ,

50:41democracy or Netanyahu , that's the

50:43problem . But hey , but then there's that

50:47and once we start mobilizing 9/11 in

50:50Israel or the other example that you

50:52have pogroms and so on , you push the

50:55limits of the perimeter inside which

50:58are sort of green zones , I'm

51:02thinking of Iraq , where no one enters

51:04except authorized persons .

51:06There you go . So that's what it seems

51:08to me to be for . So after the question ,

51:11I'll just finish with that and then we

51:13can maybe come back later . But the

51:15question that concerns us or , how can I

51:21say , that works on us in the long term

51:23is , well , how does this disposition to

51:26jump to the version crystallize ? That's

51:29what you were describing . Why is that ?

51:32So if you want to give my most concise

51:34answer that I came up with , it's that

51:36on the question of Israel , because you

51:38said it's Israel , it's not an innocent

51:40debate , or like another one , we could

51:42say Yemen . Yemen , there was an

51:45absolutely appalling situation of

51:48gigantic destruction from 2015 to 2022 ,

51:522023. Yemen wasn't an issue , you know .

51:55But it was an absolutely international

51:57situation . Well , France sold a package

51:59of weapons ,

52:00including Western weapons , to the

52:01Emirates and so on , or Sudan . Okay , so

52:04when we see this , we say , well , yes ,

52:06but it's because through the question

52:08of Israel and Zionism , Europe , how can

52:11I put it , has reinvented its innocence ,

52:13post - 45 . And so the question is , how

52:16does Europe continue to figure , and

52:18France in particular , or Great Britain ,

52:20continue to figure as a kind of

52:22benchmark of liberal democracy in the

52:24face of North Korea ? Well , the usual

52:27line-up , the North Sea , Iran , Russia ,

52:29China . Well , how does Europe continue

52:33to constitute itself as a universe , a

52:35universe of moral , political ,

52:37institutional , parliamentary

52:39universality , by reinventing itself ,

52:42and by ensuring the preservation of its

52:45untouchable innocence ? Okay , and this

52:49operation is being conducted through a

52:52defense that is becoming increasingly

52:54crazy , increasingly , uh , it's been

52:56going on for a while , well , but in the

52:58last three years , it's , we've reached a

53:00peak , that's for sure , it's done

53:02through the question of , uh , Israel and

53:04the reference to the chal , well , well ,

53:06that's another discussion , but in the

53:08end , Israel , in the very terms of its

53:10initial justification , is a terminal

53:12failure . Well , terminal is a failure .

53:15We see , we see both in demographic

53:17terms , in terms of there are more

53:19people leaving now over the last four

53:21years . Well , that's another discussion ,

53:23we can put that aside . It's an annex to

53:24what I just said . But when I say that ,

53:27it's because ... it's ... is that right ?

53:29That's what I say , I think , and maybe

53:32I'm on the wrong track , but I wonder if

53:34there is a foundation , uh , prior and

53:36implicit , even preconscious , of this —

53:38I don't want to speculate too much on

53:41this dimension — but of this entire

53:43discussion . It's that we have , at

53:46Medéiapart as elsewhere in , in a left

53:49— we define it as we want , that's it ,

53:51but in the French media and political

53:54left — we have a foundation of , how to

53:57say , we could say instinctively ... it's

53:59not the right expression , but

54:02instinctively , colonially instinctively

54:04and of a discourse of innocent

54:07universality that is embodied through

54:09this question , the question we're

54:12talking about . And that's why , when

54:14we're asked the question : " But why are

54:15you interested in Israel and not ... uh

54:17... uh ? " But of course we're interested

54:18in the rest . So , maybe I know ... I know

54:21less about the situation in Congo than

54:23about the situation , well ... uh ... where

54:25we never know enough , but it's true ,

54:26it's true ... uh ... but it's not for

54:28nothing that ... and I don't think it's

54:30any less serious or anything , but it's

54:32that in Europe we , there's this vital

54:34need to produce innocence that allows

54:36us ... to continue to say : " Look at the

54:38bad guys here , look at the bad guys

54:40there " , and behind that is a whole

54:42debate on campism which is difficult ,

54:43but one of the driving forces is that .

54:47So I would like to follow up on what

54:48you were saying about the question of

54:50sacred union , because in fact , there

54:51are elements of language that are also

54:53very present in the rhetoric of Media

54:54Part . Beyond the Louis He , beyond the

54:57Louis Plel that you can also find a lot

54:58in Fabrice Sarfi's investigations on

55:00Sarkozy , it's , you know , all the

55:02rhetoric of democracies against

55:03dictatorships .

55:06The way the Sarkozy affair is presented

55:08, it's that Mr. Sarkozy had his 2007

55:11campaign financed by the Libyan

55:13dictatorship . The implication , in fact ,

55:18is the aggravating factor in all this ,

55:19is that in fact it was a dictatorship

55:21that financed Sarkozy , and so there are

55:23countries that are statutorily

55:24dictatorships and others that would be

55:26statutorily democracies . And I think

55:31that there is indeed something in the

55:33way Méia Parte positions himself on

55:35very sensitive subjects that resembles

55:37this way of wanting to defend democracy

55:40as it is understood . In any case , the

55:43word has never been questioned in its

55:46etymological and theoretical depth , I

55:48think . On one side , there are the

55:50democracies , of which France would a

55:51priori be a part , but also Western

55:53Europe , the United States , and so on ,

55:54and on the other side , you have the

55:55countries , well , as you were saying

55:57earlier , I don't know , Russia , Syria ,

55:58all the bad people there . And so , if

56:01you like , I think that this will

56:03structure all their journalistic work

56:04and in fact the entire direction that

56:06their editorial line will take . You see

56:10, where they see democracies and

56:11dictatorships , I would tend to see , you

56:13see , the dividing line between whites

56:15and others , you see ? Because in fact ,

56:18that's often what we find . Besides ,

56:20what is said here about Israel and

56:22Palestine is true on a whole bunch of

56:23other subjects . You see , for example ,

56:28the way they cover the Ukrainian issue ,

56:31which is exactly the same subject , you

56:34see , the confrontation between European

56:37democracy and dictatorship , Russia ,

56:40which wants to take over Ukraine , etc.

56:43And so that puts them in a position , as

56:46you were saying earlier , where when we

56:49say , the global order , which is

56:53effectively based today , is based on

56:55the hegemony of the Western camp ,

56:57embodied by Western Europe , embodied by

57:00the United States . When that order is ,

57:02you see , threatened , contested for more

57:04or less good reasons , that's not the

57:06issue , you know , they will

57:07systematically find themselves in this

57:10position of , well , we're among

57:11ourselves , we are democracies . I would

57:14say that it is important to preserve ,

57:18you know , this area

57:21of democratic peace against adversaries

57:23, you know , dictatorships , savages ,

57:24violent people , etc. And I think that

57:26there is something in this explanation

57:31that can also help us understand why

57:31they tend , in certain contexts , to jump

57:31on the official versions in an

57:31extremely — you know — prompt manner ,

57:31whereas sometimes , on the other hand ,

57:31they are also capable of , you know ,

57:42taking more measures , you know . Because

57:43it really brings to mind the

57:45very categorical call from the mouth

57:46after September 1. It was with us

57:46against us . Because it truly brings to

57:47mind the very categorical appeal made

57:48by Bush after September 11 , that being

57:49either with us or against us ,

57:52and I have the impression that it

57:54reminds me of what I mentioned

57:57regarding Bush when he said with us or

58:00against us , establishing a stark

58:02political division between an us and a

58:05them , with a civilizational dimension .

58:09And in this specific instance ,

58:10regarding Edwy

58:11Plenel on September 11 ,

58:13what does he actually say ? We're all

58:14Americans , you see . Well , the headlines

58:16of the world at the time were Plenel ,

58:17Colombia , and so on . Well , we're all

58:19Americans . So , you see , they had chosen

58:20their side .

58:22Uh , to come back to that a little bit

58:25and then we'll move on to France and

58:27the left-wing Zionists in France . Uh ,

58:31in Mediapart's defense of Zionism , and

58:33in particular , uh , Plenel , I'd like to

58:35show you this quote where , at one point

58:37, he says : " Driven by the Zionist

58:38movement that had obtained the creation

58:40of a Jewish national homeland in

58:42Palestine , the creation of the State of

58:43Israel in '48 was unanimously approved

58:45by the powers that had victorious over

58:47Nazism . " The incommensurability of the

58:50crime against humanity , up to and

58:51including the extermination by genocide

58:53committed against the Jews of Europe ,

58:54legitimized the new state . An

58:56abominable wrong should be repaired by

58:58offering Jews throughout the world a

59:00refuge where they can live in peace ,

59:02safety and freedom from persecution . Is

59:05this not a plea in some way for Zionism

59:09, or is it not justified by its way of

59:12twisting the facts and dating the birth

59:16of Zionism to the aftermath of the

59:19Second World War and completely

59:22ignoring the genealogy of Zionism and

59:26its history ? For example , I'm saying

59:29that Blén is quite cultured and I

59:31think he knows the history of Zionism ,

59:33that it is a nationalist colonialist

59:35movement . He knows about it , I'm sure

59:37he's already read Herzel and so on .

59:39He probably knows about the Jewish

59:40opposition .

59:41The Jewish opposition . So , what exactly

59:44is this ? How is it that you see things ?

59:46Is it intellectual dishonesty or is it

59:48frankly a way of defending these

59:50positions ? I'll

59:51reread the quote .

59:52Yes ,

59:53but I would like you to repeat it too .

59:54Yeah , I'll repeat it . There's no

59:56problem . Driven by the Zionist movement

59:58that had obtained the creation of a

59:59Jewish national homeland in Palestine ,

1:00:01the creation of the State of Israel in

1:00:031948 was unanimously approved by the

1:00:04powers that victorious over Nazism . The

1:00:07immense scale of the crime against

1:00:08humanity , including the genocide

1:00:10committed against the Jews of Europe ,

1:00:11legitimized the new state . An

1:00:13abominable mistake had to be repaired

1:00:15by offering Jews from all over the

1:00:17world a refuge where they could live in

1:00:19peace and security , free from

1:00:20persecution . We'll put the article and

1:00:23all the sources in the thing anyway .

1:00:26The problem with this quote refers to

1:00:28what I was thinking about at the

1:00:30beginning , namely the question of the

1:00:32erasure of the Palestinian as a

1:00:34political subject , of the Palestinian

1:00:36as a political subject with a point of

1:00:38view on history . Because what Edwou

1:00:41Plenel says here is not necessarily

1:00:43false , factually . The powers that

1:00:45victorious over Nazism approved the

1:00:47creation of the Israeli state ,

1:00:49including the USSR . And I think that in

1:00:51the spirit of the times there was an

1:00:53obvious connection with the

1:00:55extermination of the Jews of Europe ,

1:00:57with the destruction of the European

1:00:59Jewish world . In any case , taking this

1:01:03as a framework , as a starting point for

1:01:05thinking about the Palestinian question

1:01:07, about what is happening in Palestine

1:01:09today , is twofold : to erase everything

1:01:11with one stroke of a pen . The

1:01:16Palestinian point of view , which can be

1:01:18summed up very simply , is to say that

1:01:20the choice was not ours , and we did not

1:01:22make it , and it is an injustice to ask

1:01:24the Palestinian people to pay by

1:01:26accepting to have a Jewish state , a

1:01:28state , well , it is not a Jewish state ,

1:01:30it is a state built on a form of Jewish

1:01:32supremacy . And I insist on the fact

1:01:35that it is not ... it is not ... Jewish

1:01:37supremacy was not born with the

1:01:39hegemony of the Jewish messianic or

1:01:41identity ideology , and that we

1:01:43currently have with the far right . Even

1:01:46in Labor , in socialism , in Israeli

1:01:47partisanship , even if it is not

1:01:49formulated in the terms of the far

1:01:50right , and so on , it remains a form of

1:01:52supremism . That is to say , the day

1:01:54after the creation of Israel , uh , I'm

1:01:56not even talking about the expulsion of

1:01:58the Palestinians , but the remaining

1:02:00Palestinians were subjected to a

1:02:01military regime . The law of the present

1:02:04absentees and their property is a law

1:02:06which states that these assets must

1:02:08revert to future Jewish immigrants , the

1:02:11law of return , and so on . So Jewish

1:02:13supremacy did not begin in the 90s or

1:02:17because , for example , when he talks

1:02:18about 48 , he uses " pour " to refer to it

1:02:20because where it is also a bit

1:02:21pernicious , is that he will still

1:02:22recognize that there was an injustice

1:02:24that was done to the Palestinians ,

1:02:25there is no problem . But there is

1:02:28always this balancing act between the

1:02:30injustice that was inflicted and the

1:02:32fact that there was a need for a refuge

1:02:34. And in another quote that we will

1:02:38also include , he does not talk about

1:02:40Zionists , he talks about Zionist

1:02:41extremists or the most extreme fringes

1:02:44of Zionists . In his article , which we

1:02:47quoted earlier on the moral question ,

1:02:49at one point , he actually says that the

1:02:51problem is Israeli extremism and so on

1:02:53— and I don't have the exact quote ,

1:02:55but — that things would have been much

1:02:57better with Rabin , Israin , a major

1:02:59figure in left-wing Zionism . And this

1:03:01will give me the opportunity to remind

1:03:03you that Rabin , even in the aftermath

1:03:06of the Oslo Accords , continued to

1:03:08colonize Palestine , to continue to

1:03:11formalize new settlements , to expel

1:03:13hundreds of Palestinian homes . This is

1:03:16in 1994 , a year after the Oslo Accords ,

1:03:18and we are in the continuity of the

1:03:20Oslo Accords of the great man of peace

1:03:23Itraakrabin . So in fact , this

1:03:24opposition between Israeli extremism or

1:03:27the Israeli far right , which is

1:03:29supposedly colonial , and the Israeli

1:03:31left or center or whatever , which is

1:03:34supposed to be the solution to peace .

1:03:36In fact , two things are : it excludes

1:03:38the Palestinian point of view from the

1:03:40debate , which is to say , " Whether it's

1:03:42Rabin or Netanyahu or , uh , or so-and-so

1:03:44, the consequences for us are the same .

1:03:47" That is to say , we have expulsion

1:03:49orders , our homes are destroyed , our

1:03:50family members are imprisoned , and we

1:03:51are asked to leave . And in concrete

1:03:54terms , when Mediapart , from the height

1:03:56of its authority — because for me

1:03:57that's the problem , we wouldn't care if

1:04:00Mediapart was a fanzine or something ,

1:04:01something anecdotal — but Miaapart has

1:04:04an important place and , from the height

1:04:06of this important place , when it frames

1:04:08the debate in this way , it's a huge

1:04:10political problem and , indeed , the

1:04:11words " pogrom " and so on act . You're

1:04:13right Yazid , they're like markers . It's

1:04:15a marker that allows us to almost use a

1:04:18dog whistle in fact . Almost a dog

1:04:20whistle . We understand each other .

1:04:21We're in the same legitimate framework

1:04:22of the debate . But , uh , and in fact the

1:04:25word pogrom to describe what happened

1:04:27on October 7th is indeed the word used

1:04:29by the Israeli authorities who came to

1:04:31the UN with a yellow star sewn on their

1:04:33shirts , but it's also the word used by

1:04:35the opposition to Netanyahu . Al-Media

1:04:39also made a bit of a reference to all

1:04:41the anti-Bahrain demonstrations and so

1:04:43on that took place , but without ever

1:04:46saying , it seems to me ( my mistake ) ,

1:04:48without ever saying that , within these

1:04:50demonstrations , the anti-colonialists ,

1:04:52who were like a pot of sorrow , took a

1:04:55hit in terms of hostility from the

1:04:57demonstrators themselves ; that the

1:04:59figures who were put forward in these

1:05:01demonstrations , these demonstrations of

1:05:03Israeli democracy , were military

1:05:06figures from the Israeli army . There is

1:05:09a very strong militarism . The consensus

1:05:12between the anti-Netania and the

1:05:14pre-Netania is the treatment of the

1:05:16Palestinians and the fact that the

1:05:17basic Zionist project , the Israeli

1:05:19state as a state for the Jews , must be

1:05:21maintained . What they disagree on is

1:05:24how far it goes . Should we be nice or

1:05:26mean to the Palestinians ? Should we put

1:05:29crocodiles around Israeli prisons or

1:05:31not ? That is the internal debate . I'm

1:05:34exaggerating , but that's the debate . By

1:05:36the way , we also saw it during the

1:05:38famous demonstrations that were

1:05:39presented to us after 2023 with the

1:05:41hostages . They said , look at the

1:05:43vibrant , great Israeli democracy , these

1:05:45people who are mobilizing for the

1:05:47hostages and so on . In short , these

1:05:49people were mobilizing for the hostages

1:05:50, they didn't give a damn . And the

1:05:52slogan was , let's bring back the

1:05:53hostages and then we'll go back

1:05:55and then we'll go back and then we'll

1:05:56have our hands free to bomb everyone .

1:05:58That was the kind of demonstration that

1:06:00was hegemonic in the demonstrations .

1:06:02Then there's a small sector of Israeli

1:06:04society that , uh , that's exactly it ,

1:06:07but in fact what's not said is that in

1:06:10these demonstrations , the

1:06:12anti-occupation bloc is extremely

1:06:14marginal .

1:06:15Oh yes , yes . There you go .

1:06:17Uh , you wanted to come back to

1:06:18Yeah . I saw images of Israeli activists

1:06:22demonstrating in front of UN buildings

1:06:26against the occupation . There were 12

1:06:29of them . Well , the quote here , it is ,

1:06:35listen , it raises many , many problems .

1:06:39Well , I can identify at least four of

1:06:41them , if only on the historical

1:06:42implicitness of what it says . Well , so

1:06:44I recognize here , if you like , what the

1:06:46impression is often heard from PL , he

1:06:48is a cultured , refined man who knows

1:06:51how to position himself on the left ,

1:06:53even on the far left . Well , in a way

1:06:55that is credible for many people . Well ,

1:06:59uh , but there is a rhetorical and

1:07:01ethical inflation that is quite typical

1:07:04of ... and which is the counterpoint , in

1:07:06fact , which refers to what you say

1:07:09about the opposition between

1:07:11individualism and methodology , moral

1:07:13position and systemic understanding of

1:07:16problems and ... And there , the ... all the

1:07:19Pleinelian inflation is also the ... the

1:07:21function of discursive compensation .

1:07:24Okay , but in 1948 , how many members

1:07:29were there in the UN ? How many before

1:07:32decolonization had taken place ?

1:07:34So , who was unanimous ? Let's

1:07:38start there . I mean , in the space of 20

1:07:41years , I don't know , I have the figures

1:07:43somewhere but I haven't memorized them ,

1:07:45but there were something like 120 or

1:07:47150 more nations between 48 and 66 in

1:07:4948. Who decided ? And who decided in 48

1:07:52was Truman . It was Truman's decision to

1:07:55impose the thing , partly for domestic

1:07:58political considerations in New York in

1:08:01view of his candidacy in the American

1:08:03presidential elections . Well , there was

1:08:07also a reason for this unanimity , which

1:08:09was against the British Empire . In

1:08:11truth , the support of the Soviet Union

1:08:14did not , it did , it did , weaken British

1:08:19hegemony throughout the Middle East ,

1:08:22Asia , Western Asia , the Persian Gulf ,

1:08:26where historically the British have

1:08:29been hegemonic for at least a century

1:08:32and a half . You can trace the entire

1:08:36region with your finger and there you

1:08:38have it , you understand , and the global

1:08:40economy has demonstrated this crucial

1:08:42resource , which is ocean oil , on which

1:08:44the world economy will sail until today

1:08:46. So the whole thing , the moral

1:08:49considerations around Ah , the other

1:08:51thing is the British and the United

1:08:53States . But what did they do about

1:08:55their immigration rules and their

1:08:57immigration law at that time ? Did they

1:08:59tell the Jews who wanted to leave

1:09:01Poland , who wanted to " Come on , let's

1:09:03make amends and show solidarity ? " Of

1:09:06course not , they took restrictive

1:09:08measures on immigration , particularly

1:09:10concerning these populations who had

1:09:12just suffered hell . So , this way of

1:09:16formulating it , in , with this moral

1:09:18emphasis , is still very , very difficult

1:09:21to accept , and for historical reasons

1:09:23and even for the state itself . Rachid

1:09:27Ralidi , in a book that has not been

1:09:28translated into French , called " The

1:09:30Iron Cage " , shows very well how , under

1:09:31the British Mandate , the British

1:09:33established all the pre-state

1:09:34institutions of the State of Israel . So

1:09:37this conquest did not just happen in

1:09:391948. It had been underway for at least

1:09:41twenty years . So there is a way of

1:09:43framing this in terms of a moral

1:09:45imperative that would not even be

1:09:47debatable given the enormity of the

1:09:49crime , and no one here is disputing the

1:09:51enormity of the crime , of course . The

1:09:55way of formulating this , and so with

1:09:57what Simon is saying , is that how are

1:09:59we going to continue to say : " Yes , yes ,

1:10:01the fate experienced by the

1:10:03Palestinians at the time of the

1:10:04creation of the State of Israel is

1:10:06terrible , because ... " , but anyway ... And

1:10:08there , you know , you , you , we know this

1:10:10image of two castaways clinging to a

1:10:12plank in the middle of the sea to

1:10:14survive and one of them has to push the

1:10:16other a little , and that's the thing ...

1:10:17Well , there you have it , this way of

1:10:19telling things , because the implicit

1:10:21image of this type of story is , that's

1:10:24it . Okay , there you have it . Well , all

1:10:28of this is extremely , uh , assuring , to

1:10:31say the least , about the erasure and

1:10:35invisibility of the Palestinians . And I

1:10:39come back to what you were saying , I

1:10:41come back to the beginning of our

1:10:43discussion , which is that when we talk ,

1:10:45we have another one in our baggage of

1:10:48expressions and formulations and

1:10:49implicit representations . The

1:10:52Palestinian national movement is in its

1:10:55armed dimension . But how is it

1:10:57constantly presented ? But as

1:10:58manipulated by Teran , even manipulated

1:11:00by Israel itself . How many times have

1:11:02we heard , Ah , Hamas , in truth it's an

1:11:04Israeli production . It's a kind of

1:11:05thing that explodes in the face of

1:11:07Israel , which has been manipulated by

1:11:08Israel .

1:11:09Autonomy . It's

1:11:10another way of saying , exonerating the

1:11:12Palestinians in a certain way . Say , oh

1:11:14that was random . Ah , it's like we would

1:11:17have said it's Moscow in another era ,

1:11:18huh , when it's Israel itself that pays

1:11:20for its mistakes . So it's always Israel

1:11:23with itself . You see , when we talk

1:11:24about Israel , Israel's crimes and so on

1:11:26, the problem is the Palestinians . It's

1:11:28not the Palestinians , it's the harm

1:11:30that Israel does to itself and that's a

1:11:32problem and it's going to cause us a

1:11:33reputation problem . Oh well , but I'm

1:11:36just saying that on one of the ways in

1:11:38which this erasure is taking place , I

1:11:41just wanted to add this thing and I

1:11:43won't stop myself , it's this idea that

1:11:45the Palestinians fundamentally have no

1:11:47capacity for action . They are a

1:11:49population that has the right to our

1:11:52compassion , that has the right to be

1:11:54homeless , to which we respond with

1:11:56humanitarian aid , which is a gift about

1:11:59which there would be a lot to say . But

1:12:02as soon as it comes to the political

1:12:03aspect , well , we ask Mahmoud Abbas to

1:12:05act as Israel's security subcontractor .

1:12:07There you go . And as long as we don't

1:12:09cause any problems , in fact . In the

1:12:13introduction , I was speaking about

1:12:15Albert Camus and his ultimate

1:12:16preference for that left-wing

1:12:18colonialism , a specific way of

1:12:20apprehending the phenomenon of

1:12:22colonialism from a perspective that is

1:12:24profoundly humanitarian . When we erase

1:12:30the protagonism of the Palestinians ,

1:12:32when we resort to morality and a form

1:12:34of paternalism , when we look closely ,

1:12:36because far from saying that the

1:12:43oppressed must display a morality that

1:12:45is superior to that of the oppressor ,

1:12:47isn't that precisely the quintessence

1:12:49of Camus ' line of deploring the

1:12:53oppression of the colonized but above

1:12:56all of calling them to order when they

1:12:58use something we detest , namely

1:13:00violence and liberating violence ? Well ,

1:13:06on this issue of violence , because it's

1:13:08true that when there are Palestinian

1:13:10demonstrations that are protesting

1:13:12against Palestinians , my side can very

1:13:14well support it . And when there is

1:13:16recourse to violence , there is

1:13:17immediately a ready blow that falls and

1:13:22the idea that it would ultimately be

1:13:23illegitimate .

1:13:24Yeah . Well , listen , that's really what

1:13:27is at the heart of the moral stance

1:13:30that we can find on Mediapart with this

1:13:32kind of distancing from history and

1:13:35from the subject in question . And from

1:13:40this distancing to assess the degree of

1:13:43morality of one from the other by

1:13:46completely disconnecting the means and

1:13:49the end . In the article that was

1:13:53published , uh , 3 weeks later , on

1:13:55October 7 , the moral question , Pared

1:13:58Plenel's October , that's

1:14:00exactly what he's doing . First , he says

1:14:04that there should be no unconditional

1:14:06support for any cause because if we

1:14:08unconditionally support a people or a

1:14:10cause , that people could become

1:14:12barbarians and so on . Now , the question

1:14:17would not be primarily about the

1:14:18unconditionality of support , but about

1:14:20who supports what ?

1:14:23Is there a kind of parallel equation

1:14:25between ultimately supporting the

1:14:26Zionist project or supporting the

1:14:28Palestinian people's struggle for

1:14:30national liberation ? They are

1:14:32equivalent , but what is most important

1:14:34is that it be moderate . Okay ? So there

1:14:36is still this departure from history ,

1:14:38in fact . There you have it . The second

1:14:40thing he says is that the end never

1:14:41justifies the means . I think that's his

1:14:43second or third point in this article .

1:14:46But the question we would like to ask

1:14:48is , at that point , what justifies the

1:14:49means if it is not an end ? And in fact ,

1:14:52behind this sentence , which can be

1:14:54misleading , or rather common sense , and

1:14:56that's what can be effective with Edw

1:14:59Lenex , is that yes , indeed , of course ,

1:15:01we can all say that . But it's when we

1:15:03think a little more politically about

1:15:05the thing that , that's it , that it

1:15:06becomes a little strange . There is this

1:15:11claim in fact to want to embody a sort

1:15:13of morality , a standard that would be

1:15:16external to history and from which we

1:15:18could judge in a neutral and objective

1:15:21way the actions of some and the actions

1:15:23of others . Well , my political training

1:15:28tells me that Leon Trotsky already

1:15:31settled this discussion in a little

1:15:33book called " Their Morality and Ours " ,

1:15:36where he states , on the contrary , that ,

1:15:39uh , neither a conception , either a

1:15:41religious conception , an ancient

1:15:43conception of morality , that it is

1:15:46something that ... a discourse that

1:15:48ultimately allows an existing order to

1:15:51maintain itself by getting out of it ,

1:15:53in fact , these questions of history ,

1:15:58where we would rather have as a

1:16:00discourse that , uh , the end determines

1:16:02the means . That is to say , and this is

1:16:06Tropy's position , which is to say : in

1:16:08fact , depending on the end you are

1:16:09pursuing , you will necessarily go for

1:16:11certain means or other means , but that

1:16:13in none of them — well , it is absurd in

1:16:15fact to put on the same level the

1:16:17violence of the master and the violence

1:16:19of the slave . Uh , I think he uses this

1:16:22image a bit , but if the master , in his

1:16:24relationship with the slave , uses

1:16:26trickery and violence to , uh , maintain

1:16:28this relationship of slavery , uh , well ,

1:16:30that can't be put on the same level as ,

1:16:32uh , the slave who uses trickery and

1:16:34violence to escape , in fact , this

1:16:36condition , uh , of slavery . And there

1:16:39you have it , we can , in fact , quite

1:16:41easily ... well , easily criticize this

1:16:43question of putting forms of violence

1:16:46on an equal footing : when one aims to

1:16:48maintain a colonial fact , a colonial

1:16:50political fact , a system of domination

1:16:53and structural violence , and the

1:16:55violence of the colonized , this form of

1:16:57counter-volition that aims , in fact , to

1:16:59escape this state . And I would like to

1:17:02point out that , in saying this , I am

1:17:04not saying that there is more ... well ,

1:17:07that everything is permitted , we have

1:17:09no critical relationship with it , etc.

1:17:10Of course that's not it . And the last

1:17:13thing in this article , in fact , about

1:17:15PL , well , this is what I was saying a

1:17:18little bit earlier , but in the end ,

1:17:20what political perspective does all

1:17:22this discourse serve ? Which serves the

1:17:26political perspective , which is that of

1:17:28wanting a two-state solution , which

1:17:30will be the only solution , which is in

1:17:32fact the only solution that allows

1:17:34Israel to be preserved from a state of

1:17:37civil war , in fact , because it is , well

1:17:39, because in fact , otherwise , Israel is

1:17:41necessarily heading towards civil war ,

1:17:43uh , or , uh , wait , how do I put it , uh ,

1:17:46and which is the one that allows Israel

1:17:48to maintain a Jewish-majority state ,

1:17:51which allows it to remain within the

1:17:52framework of Israel must be a

1:17:54democratic and Jewish state . And for

1:17:55Israel to be a democratic and Jewish

1:17:57state , there must be a Jewish majority .

1:18:00And for there to be a Jewish majority ,

1:18:02it must be set in stone that the

1:18:03Palestinians must give up the part on

1:18:05which the Israeli state is established ,

1:18:07hence the two-state solution to

1:18:09actually freeze the current status quo .

1:18:13So , all this to say that we must always

1:18:14come back to my opinion on the fact

1:18:16that there is a political line at

1:18:17Mediapart which is that of left-wing

1:18:19Sunism . This line is assumed and it is

1:18:21what we criticize as such . Just to

1:18:24follow up , I will ask you the question

1:18:26and give you the floor . Yazid , you

1:18:28spoke precisely about W. Plenel and it

1:18:31is true that in one of his columns ,

1:18:33what he also likes to do , I found , is

1:18:36to quote moral figures , or rather

1:18:38intellectual figures . And , for example ,

1:18:41he will quote one of the columns

1:18:43written in 1973 during the Yom Kippur

1:18:45War , in which Pierre Vidalnque is in it

1:18:47, who raises the question of morality ,

1:18:51and so on , and he will reappropriate it

1:18:5350 years later to make it his own and ,

1:18:55ultimately , to use it and , uh ,

1:18:56ultimately support his argument and his

1:18:58condemnation of violence . And in fact ,

1:19:00what is very interesting , and I am

1:19:02going to ask you the question , is :

1:19:03beyond the question of his relationship

1:19:05to reality and politics , I have the

1:19:06impression that there is also a

1:19:08relationship to history that must be

1:19:09considered in the writings of de

1:19:10Médiapart and in the writings of

1:19:12Pleinel . Namely , we have the impression

1:19:15that we are simultaneously calling on

1:19:17history to support our arguments and at

1:19:19the same time we are always outside of

1:19:22history in a completely overarching

1:19:24vision where we have totally intangible

1:19:26principles and without thinking about

1:19:28reality each time , with regard to these

1:19:31developments , with regard to these

1:19:33transformations and the way in which we

1:19:35must systematically adapt a position in

1:19:37a strategic and political manner . Yazid

1:19:41, do you

1:19:42think that to finally , how to say , to

1:19:45analyze what you are describing here ,

1:19:48we must return , if you will , to the

1:19:50axiomatic , methodological , and

1:19:52philosophical starting point of

1:19:55MediaPart and WNL , which is that

1:19:57centrism is good , balance is good , you

1:20:00see , moderation is good ,

1:20:03alliance , courage , and so on . It's

1:20:06funny because at first glance these are

1:20:08things that we would have ... these are

1:20:10things that you can also read on the

1:20:11right , you see the nuance and so on ,

1:20:12but really ,

1:20:14this position is horrible , you really

1:20:15see the clothes , the elegance and so on

1:20:17, but I think he really got it into his

1:20:19body , you know . And indeed , it's

1:20:22through this prism that he's going to

1:20:24have an analysis , you see the facts ,

1:20:26the historical facts , their balancing ,

1:20:28highlighting some over others and so on

1:20:30. " I

1:20:31hold all the ends , " is your favorite

1:20:33expression . So , here it is : I have here

1:20:36, while we're talking , I was doing

1:20:38research on the Média Part website , I

1:20:40tried to find analyses from Média Part

1:20:43. You know , the survey conducted by

1:20:47academics in Pennsylvania showed that

1:20:5082 % of Israeli Jews support the genocide

1:20:52or ethnic cleansing in Gaza . And 56 %

1:20:56also support the expulsion of

1:20:58Palestinians from Israel , what we call

1:21:01Israeli Jews , Israeli Arabs . So ,

1:21:06there's an article dated October 7 ,

1:21:092025 , by the way , by Gene de Noir ,

1:21:12which details a number of things about

1:21:15the situation , the alarming situation .

1:21:19Obviously , it has already been two

1:21:20years since the genocide first began .

1:21:25It talks about the lack of perspective

1:21:27of the radicalization of the Israeli

1:21:28population . It quotes Ilan Papé's work

1:21:33on the Nakba extensively . Finally , I

1:21:35mean , everything is there . Everything

1:21:36is in this article , it's relevant . I

1:21:38skimmed through it quickly while we

1:21:40were talking . Everything that Ilan

1:21:42Papé explains in his book , The Ethnic

1:21:45Cleansing of Palestine , Plan D , David

1:21:48Ben-Gurion's remarks on the need to

1:21:51expel the Arabs , it's all there . The

1:21:54title of the article , I'll give it to

1:21:57you in the beginning . How the Israeli

1:21:59right seized on October 7 to erase the

1:22:01Palestinians . So in fact , how to put it

1:22:04, the article would tend to present a

1:22:06reality that is widely shared , you see ,

1:22:09a position that is widely shared by the

1:22:11political field as a whole as well as

1:22:13the population . But

1:22:15they insist on the fact that the

1:22:17problem is the Israeli right . So , in

1:22:18fact , you see , sometimes we even end up

1:22:20in situations of willful blindness . In

1:22:22fact , you see , despite the fact that a

1:22:25colonial position , uh , radicalized , uh ,

1:22:27uh , with genocidal tendencies and in

1:22:30favor of ethnic cleansing , is widely

1:22:32shared and hegemonic , the problem

1:22:34remains Netanyahu and the right who

1:22:36have radicalized the population . It is ,

1:22:40it is also one of the people quoted in

1:22:42the article who indicates that the

1:22:43turning point is really the fact that

1:22:45for several decades now , the Israeli

1:22:47population and public opinion have been

1:22:48, you see , somewhat pushed towards

1:22:50radical positions . But , but it is , but

1:22:53it is still them who are the problems ,

1:22:55if you like , it is not the , the , it is

1:22:57not the project as a whole that is

1:22:58finally achieving a certain coherence

1:23:00with what is happening in Gaza and

1:23:02Jordan today , you see . So it is , it is

1:23:04still a bit funny this way of ...

1:23:06Despite the obvious , you see that they

1:23:08describe in the article , it is good to

1:23:10systematically return to positions that

1:23:12are centrist positions . You see , there

1:23:13really is something that is , uh , yes .

1:23:15like DNA , you know . You can't reach the

1:23:18point where

1:23:18nature returns . It's

1:23:20nature that comes back to you . Exactly .

1:23:22Uh , in relation to the history of armed

1:23:24resistance , it's interesting because in

1:23:26fact , there are elements that I also

1:23:28find in the way the articles are

1:23:30written . Uh , when subjects are a bit

1:23:34thorny or when they don't want to give

1:23:36too much weight to people like us , they

1:23:38tend to take refuge behind what other

1:23:40people say . So in this case , for

1:23:43example , on the question of armed

1:23:45struggle , uh , I'm reading an article

1:23:46that dates from 2024 , so it's been a

1:23:48while . Joseph Confavoreux gives the

1:23:50floor to a Lebanese essayist named

1:23:53Dominique . What does Dominique say ?

1:23:56I'll just quote an excerpt that is

1:23:58included in the article . Resistance is

1:24:00not a right to massacre . In fact , he

1:24:03gives the floor to a person who will be

1:24:05able to say frankly what they think .

1:24:07You see , the general framework is that

1:24:09armed resistance in absolute terms is

1:24:11indeed complicated to be against on

1:24:13principle because it is enshrined in

1:24:15international law . But it must be

1:24:16limited . It must be limited and above

1:24:19all , the actors involved in the

1:24:21national liberation movements in

1:24:23Palestine , in Free Palestine , must know

1:24:25that , in fact , their strategy must be

1:24:28strictly limited to , as you were saying

1:24:30earlier , a form of moralism that must

1:24:32be even superior to that of the armies

1:24:35they are facing , without taking into

1:24:37account the fact that , you see , the

1:24:39general framework of the fight and the

1:24:42struggle is not set by the people who

1:24:44are resisting , you see , it is set by

1:24:46the people who are facing it .

1:24:48And I am , you see , it is the famous

1:24:50story of the bombers and the planes .

1:24:52You see , I mean if the Lebanese and

1:24:55Palestinian resistance fighters had the

1:24:58sophisticated tools and technologies

1:25:00that would allow them to achieve their

1:25:03ends , I think that is what

1:25:05the FLNLNL was saying , new weapons .

1:25:07That's it . Well , that's

1:25:08exactly it .

1:25:09This way of systematically hiding

1:25:11behind non-political positions by

1:25:13saying , " Violence is bad , we have to be

1:25:15careful , be careful in a good way . "

1:25:18And it amounts to placing part of the

1:25:19colonialism they are suffering on the

1:25:21shoulders of the Palestinians

1:25:22themselves , because it is also Hamas's

1:25:24fault . Yes .

1:25:26And that is something that comes up in

1:25:28several interventions on Médiapart ,

1:25:30the fact that there is a shared

1:25:31responsibility , I think it was in

1:25:33particular in an interview with

1:25:34Jean-Pierre Filu , but not only that ,

1:25:36that Leas is also ultimately shared

1:25:38responsibility for the genocidal war

1:25:40that followed October 7. Which makes it

1:25:42come out in one stroke of the pen . Well

1:25:48, everything , the whole historical

1:25:50aspect , as if somewhere everything had

1:25:52only started on October 7 and that if

1:25:54Leas had not , uh , done that on October

1:25:567 , uh , there would have been no bombing

1:25:58. As if there were ... but you mentioned

1:25:59it earlier , as if there had been no

1:26:01bombing before , as if ... well , there

1:26:02really is this thing of making the FLN

1:26:04bear the brunt of the , well , the war ,

1:26:05in fact , of the liberation of

1:26:08Algeria , it seems to me that in Joseph

1:26:10Confavreux's article , there is also

1:26:12this , there is also a form of making

1:26:14the FLN bear the brunt of the , well ,

1:26:17the war of liberation of Algeria with

1:26:19tropes , well , historical errors , which

1:26:21come back to the question of the

1:26:23departure of the colonists , well , the

1:26:26pieds noirs , and so on . So , there you

1:26:29have it , it's just to bounce back on

1:26:30what

1:26:30you want to resume and then we'll head

1:26:32slowly towards the end . Yeah , yeah , yes

1:26:34,

1:26:34yes . To go along with what you're

1:26:37saying , something that when you said

1:26:39there crossed my mind and that came out

1:26:40of it , but perhaps fortunately . But , uh

1:26:45, well , the idea that , if we come back

1:26:47to this , this initial theme of , of the

1:26:49erasure of the Palestinians and their

1:26:51ability to act politically , well , it

1:26:54has consequences . And one of the

1:26:57consequences is the , a kind of general

1:26:59essentialization of , of , of , of the

1:27:01situation with all the shortcuts that

1:27:03it involves , and a mirror

1:27:04essentialization of all the Jews who

1:27:06would have a vocation to support Israel

1:27:08. And it's not us who say it , it's not

1:27:11the FI who say it , it's an official ,

1:27:13state , international discourse that we

1:27:15find at the level of Europe , the French

1:27:17State and so on and so forth . Okay ,

1:27:19we'll finish soon , sir , gentlemen ,

1:27:21let's dwell on it for another 10 , 10 ,

1:27:2310 minutes . I would like us to end on a

1:27:27subject that has been at the heart of

1:27:30the news this summer , which has

1:27:32mobilized a lot of media attention . Uh ,

1:27:37we saw a whole political and media

1:27:38frenzy , it's the famous Barbara Bouch

1:27:40affair . Uh , so the name of this DJ who

1:27:44appeared in Grenoble and who , uh ,

1:27:47received protests here and there from

1:27:51activists in favor of Palestine , uh ,

1:27:54cups and so on . Anyway , it took a

1:27:57pretty dramatic turn in France this

1:28:00summer . Well , it really stirred up

1:28:03politics this summer in France . Uh ,

1:28:07Mediapart has obviously taken a

1:28:09position , clearly in favor of the

1:28:12version not only of Barbara Bouch , the

1:28:15version not only of the police but also

1:28:18the version that they relied heavily on

1:28:21and Yazi , you were talking about it a

1:28:24little earlier , the way that Media also

1:28:27starts by retweeting , of using without

1:28:30openly stating it , but by using columns

1:28:33by Jonas Pardo and so on . and so on .

1:28:38For example , Plenel republished an

1:28:40article from Libération that also

1:28:42collected the testimony of Barbara

1:28:44Bouch , and I would like to ask you

1:28:46about this because it is also very

1:28:48interesting how you are treated about

1:28:50anti-Semitism . In the article from

1:28:55Libération , it says that for all

1:28:56discrimination and racism , the correct

1:28:58criterion is what those directly

1:29:00concerned feel and what the artist

1:29:01experienced , which is anti-Semitism . So

1:29:06with this primacy of feelings over

1:29:08facts , while , well , Plenel and Médiar

1:29:11are known for being extremely attached

1:29:13to it . By the way , Yazid , how exactly

1:29:17did you receive this injunction to

1:29:20align yourself with what is felt and ,

1:29:22from that point on , simply keep your

1:29:25silence ? It's the cancellation of the

1:29:29very principle of journalism , you see ,

1:29:32that strikes me . That is to say , we're

1:29:35no longer going to be , even though

1:29:37we're talking about a media outlet

1:29:39that's talking about investigations ,

1:29:41you see , that's going to try , you see ,

1:29:43to uncover the reality by going to look

1:29:45,

1:29:45you see , the Twitter of the PL . In fact

1:29:48, all that is useless . In the end ,

1:29:50we're going to listen to people and

1:29:52then they're going to say how they feel

1:29:53, how they interpreted such and such .

1:29:55And then , ultimately , with this

1:29:57reasoning , we could even ask Marine Le

1:29:59Pen to come on set and ask her if she's

1:30:03guilty or not , you see , of the facts

1:30:04that the justice system is accusing her

1:30:06of . She tells us , she's cut off . I say

1:30:08that because in fact , there was a

1:30:09deputy Eren who said that ,

1:30:11Jean-Philippe Tangi ,

1:30:12he was , he was , he was on the radio , he

1:30:14said that in fact he had a

1:30:15huge sense of humor .

1:30:16Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , him especially . Yeah ,

1:30:18I think

1:30:18Tangi , he said on the radio a few weeks

1:30:20ago that in fact

1:30:23she was the best placed to know if she

1:30:24was guilty or not .

1:30:25Because he was asked if it would be her

1:30:26or Bardella who would be the candidate ,

1:30:27who would be better placed to be the

1:30:28candidate , and so there you have it , in

1:30:30the case of the discussion , he said

1:30:31that she was the one who was best

1:30:32placed to know . But in the end , it's a

1:30:33bit ... it's a bit the same , that is to

1:30:35say , you see , it's really a priority to

1:30:37feelings and so on . In short , it was

1:30:40for ... it was a little joke to laugh at ,

1:30:42but in fact , I think that PLel's

1:30:44position on Boch , in the end , you see ,

1:30:46it really allows you to identify what

1:30:48the priority is , you see , on an

1:30:50intellectual and philosophical level

1:30:52for him . And that , and I come back to

1:30:56what I was saying earlier , this

1:30:58question of methodological

1:30:59individualism , the priorities given to

1:31:00individuals , to their behavior , to

1:31:01their quirks and to their feelings , you

1:31:03see . And so from this point of view ,

1:31:07Media Part can also sometimes transform

1:31:09itself into a platform whose purpose is

1:31:12, you see , to highlight progressive

1:31:14struggles . By the way , I think there

1:31:17will be a sequence on this progressive

1:31:19movement ,

1:31:20but in its most liberal form , the most

1:31:22disheartening and compatible with the

1:31:25exercise of power in the style of

1:31:27Macron , Trudo , Renzi , and Obama , all

1:31:30these figures who are somewhat extreme

1:31:32centrists . It is obviously disastrous

1:31:36from an intellectual point of view , you

1:31:38see , to arrive at the point , after 50

1:31:40years of journalistic work , of saying

1:31:41that priority should be given to the

1:31:43feelings of others because , well , that

1:31:45would be the cancellation of political

1:31:46discussion . We must not

1:31:49take into account the feelings of one

1:31:50person , that is not

1:31:51an element , you see , that will

1:31:53constitute a more profound political

1:31:54analysis . I think that Simon might have

1:31:57some interesting things to say about

1:31:59the fact that the feelings of a person

1:32:01who hears hostile remarks about Israel

1:32:03and who interprets them as anti-Semitic

1:32:04are something that deserves to be

1:32:06analyzed . You see , from one point of

1:32:08view , but you've

1:32:09already had a format before . There are

1:32:10things . I think that Sédec , who has a

1:32:13job , by the way , when we had IE here to

1:32:14talk about Barbara About on the subject

1:32:15, he said some very pertinent things

1:32:16about it . It can be part of an analysis

1:32:19, a political analysis , you see , to

1:32:21take into account people's feelings and

1:32:24try to understand why it is that when

1:32:26we denounce , you see , the support — in

1:32:28this case , that's what was denounced ,

1:32:30it was Barbarabouch's support in

1:32:32particular , through her signing of the

1:32:34platform in support , played in having

1:32:36played the role of ambassador to

1:32:37genocide . You see , that's what she's

1:32:39being criticized for . It is this

1:32:40support which is not , in fact , the most

1:32:42robust form of backing , but it remains

1:32:45a de facto support nonetheless . How can

1:32:48we explain the fact that on the one

1:32:50hand , she is being criticized for this

1:32:51and on the other hand , what she hears

1:32:53is that she is being targeted because

1:32:55she is Jewish . You see , this deserves a

1:32:57discussion , but we can't stop there .

1:32:59This is not a serious discussion .

1:33:01Finally , at some point , we must also

1:33:04analyze the facts , try to understand

1:33:06what really happened , not simply rely

1:33:08on the prefectural version , and then

1:33:09try to , you see , hold a speech that is

1:33:11at least a little serious from a

1:33:12journalistic point of view and then

1:33:14from a political point of view because

1:33:16inevitably there are implications

1:33:17behind it because we can clearly see

1:33:19that behind it there is also an issue

1:33:21of positioning oneself vis - à - vis La

1:33:22France Insoumise . By the way , just

1:33:24after that , it was by chance , they

1:33:25posted , or rather , they published

1:33:28and retweeted an editorial from Le

1:33:29Monde entitled " Anti-Semitism : LFI's

1:33:30management must take responsibility " ,

1:33:32and it was this editorial that said the

1:33:34following : " If the boycott can be

1:33:35justified when it comes to institutions

1:33:36or companies taking an active part in

1:33:38the destruction of Gaza , it cannot

1:33:39target artists who keep their distance

1:33:41from the powers that be , whose freedom

1:33:42of expression must be defended . " So

1:33:46it's Le Monde's editorial that what

1:33:47deserves discussion because of Israel

1:33:49is permitted . As long as we never do it

1:33:52. That's exactly it . That's exactly it

1:33:54because in this case , you see , it could

1:33:55put

1:33:56Exactly . That's exactly it . Whereas , in

1:33:59my opinion , the definition they are

1:34:00describing justifies that we can

1:34:02boycott someone , as opposed to calling

1:34:04for a boycott of someone , which is part

1:34:06of a political debate that we can have

1:34:08if you want .

1:34:09But here , we are

1:34:11moving away from that , we are in the

1:34:12realm of feeling , well , she considers

1:34:14that she has been targeted by what I

1:34:15mean , well , it is the truth and we

1:34:17leave it at that . And for me , it is

1:34:19still problematic when you call

1:34:21yourself a journalist , you know , a

1:34:22left-wing investigative journalist ,

1:34:23etcetera . But what is interesting , and

1:34:27we will end on this , I will give you

1:34:29the floor , Simon , is that , he , he , he ,

1:34:32he takes into consideration the primacy

1:34:35of feeling . Uh , he's going to denounce

1:34:38the cultural boycott and what's very

1:34:40interesting is his ability , it must be

1:34:41said , of Plenel to always come out on

1:34:43top in a form of balancing act that is

1:34:44expressed in the following way : At

1:34:46Mediapart , principles are not divided .

1:34:49Barbara BCH was supposed to play in

1:34:51Grenoble just as Médine must be able

1:34:52to sing without being deprogrammed in

1:34:54the name of her commitments to

1:34:55Palestine . There is a side , so the ball

1:34:58is in the center everywhere .

1:35:00But that's me , it reminds me of the

1:35:01phrase : " The road to hell is paved with

1:35:03good intentions . " Because in fact , what

1:35:05is it about ? I saw it a little like

1:35:08that , because Barbara Bouch was the

1:35:10victim of a wave of lesbophobic ,

1:35:12fatphobic , anti-Semitic harassment ,

1:35:14following her participation in GO 24

1:35:16and the ... very violent far-right .

1:35:18Very violent far-right . In the name of

1:35:20that and in the name of , indeed , I'm

1:35:22not going to go back over what you

1:35:24explained very well about this aspect

1:35:26of methodological individualism and so

1:35:28on , but in the name of that , uh ,

1:35:29Barbara Bch is necessarily innocent of

1:35:31everything she has , well as if Barbara

1:35:33Bch wasn't herself , in fact , an adult

1:35:35person , a political subject who , well ,

1:35:37who knows what she's doing when she

1:35:39signs an op-ed , uh , for a major

1:35:41newspaper on a subject as important as ,

1:35:43well , I mean , no one will make me

1:35:45believe that she signed it like that ,

1:35:46without reading a text , she who is a

1:35:49public figure . That is to say that when

1:35:52you are selected to do the ADA

1:35:54all-nighter in Paris , when you are

1:35:55selected to be at the opening of the

1:35:57gos , it's because you're not just

1:35:58anyone . You're not just anyone . So when

1:36:02you're called after all that and asked

1:36:04to sign an op-ed , it's an act , it's a

1:36:05public stance . And I think that Barbara

1:36:08Bouch is a great person who knows what

1:36:11she's doing . And besides , if she had

1:36:14changed her mind , she could have said

1:36:16so . If she had admitted a mistake or

1:36:18something , she didn't say it . She said

1:36:19she regretted it . But without ever

1:36:21saying why she regretted it . In my

1:36:22opinion , she regrets it because it

1:36:23caused controversy . Well , since there

1:36:25was no explanation given , I think if

1:36:27she regrets it , it's because it's

1:36:29coming back to bite her today . So , the

1:36:31road to hell is paved with good

1:36:31intentions . Because in the name of

1:36:34wanting — I'm pretending to be naive ,

1:36:36huh — in the name of wanting to

1:36:38recognize Barbara BCH's status as a

1:36:40victim in relation to these waves of

1:36:42harassment , well , we're going to

1:36:44essentialize her , we're going to take

1:36:46away her ability to act and we're

1:36:48ultimately going to replay a form of

1:36:50essentialization of Jews as necessarily

1:36:52being victims , and in turn , a form of

1:36:54instrumentalization of the fight

1:36:56against anti-Semitism . I'm pretending

1:37:00to be naive because I think that Edoui

1:37:02Plenel is not at all into this thing ,

1:37:05not knowing what he's doing , and that

1:37:07to me is anti-Elfism . If it hadn't been

1:37:11La France Insoumise that had been

1:37:13involved , because by the way , it's not

1:37:15just La France Insoumise but also

1:37:17involved in this boycott , I don't think

1:37:19that Médiapart and Penel would have

1:37:21taken such a position . I may be wrong ,

1:37:24but I honestly don't think so . And that

1:37:28goes back to the fact that there's

1:37:29another program that will be devoted to

1:37:31Média Part's relationship with France

1:37:32Insoumise , but I think it makes sense

1:37:34in that context . For a number of years ,

1:37:38Média Part has been taking a very

1:37:39clear political line regarding French

1:37:41politics , which is to be against France

1:37:43Insoumise , not as such , but against a

1:37:45France Insoumise that is managing to

1:37:47dominate the left today . We come back

1:37:50to the fact that we must never forget

1:37:52to consider Média Part as a political

1:37:54actor , including as a left-wing media

1:37:56outlet . I think that's what's happening

1:37:58behind the Barbara Budch lighthouse .

1:38:00Finally , I mean , it's so , I don't know

1:38:02how else to say it , but stupid what

1:38:03Plenel said when he said , " Ah , but if

1:38:04she feels it , it's anti-Semitism , then

1:38:06there's no question to ask . " I don't

1:38:08think he himself even thinks so . It's

1:38:11such a stupid statement , and it so

1:38:13demeans the debate , that I think

1:38:15there's a very clear objective behind

1:38:18it , which is that we are against France

1:38:20Insoumise and we must undermine its