Full transcript
0:00Hi and welcome to the org dev podcast.
0:03So most organization development work
0:05focuses on what we can see structures,
0:08behavior, processes, strategy. But a lot
0:11of what actually shapes it and changes
0:13organizations sits beneath that in
0:15relationships, in patterns, in things
0:17people feel but don't or can't always
0:20name. Today we're joined by someone who
0:22spent the last 30 years understanding
0:24how individuals, teams, and
0:26organizations shift the patterns that
0:28keep them stuck. particularly in complex
0:30or difficult situations. Dr. Ty Frances
0:33is founder and director of MIAS, a
0:36consultancy focused on cultural
0:37transformation. Tai's highly developed
0:40approach focuses on a rich array of
0:42approaches from gestat to systemic
0:44experiential approaches. Tai is a
0:46pioneer in applying systemic
0:47constellations within its organizational
0:49settings, even using film to explore how
0:52individuals and organizations develop
0:54and transform. His work draws on his own
0:56rich experiences from education, brand
0:59strategy, IT and corporate
1:00communications and his doctoral research
1:03focused on the experience of
1:04breakthrough in individuals and systems.
1:06So Ty is a published author and his work
1:09includes contact and context new
1:11directions in gestalt coaching and his
1:14latest book which been absolutely
1:15devoured by Danny. So for those audio
1:18people you can't see this is a new
1:19record for the podcast in terms of
1:21bookmarks. uh his new book, Mapping the
1:23Invisible, which I think we've all
1:24thoroughly enjoyed reading. Um and
1:26interestingly, Tai works
1:27internationally, but is based in
1:29wonderful Cardiff in South Wales. So, so
1:31thank you for making time for us, Ty. We
1:33really appreciate it.
1:47[music]
1:49Thank you. We're really excited to have
1:50you with us and just a big thank you for
1:52writing the book. So, I've really really
1:54enjoyed kind of devouring that in the
1:56run-up to this conversation. It's um
1:57it's been brilliant at making me me
1:59think a bit and articulated some things
2:00I kind of intuitively feel or sense but
2:03haven't named them as art articulately
2:04as you have in the book.
2:06>> My pleasure. I love making people think
2:07as kind of the core of my work, right?
2:09>> Definitely did that. Yeah, definitely
2:10did that. Um so, just to kick us off,
2:13can you just paint a picture of the work
2:14that you're doing currently, what that
2:16involves?
2:17>> Sure. Um so as Garren has said I'm the
2:20founder and one of two directors of MIS
2:22and as a micro business obviously we
2:25share responsibility for sales and
2:27operations and finance and IT and so on
2:30but my own bias in in my work kind of
2:33more broadly in the business is towards
2:36the development of our kind of
2:37philosophy of transformation because MI
2:40is a consultancy really deeply
2:42interested in cultural transformation
2:44and what does that mean in organizations
2:46so I'm really uh fascinated by
2:49developing that philosophy of
2:51transformation. I put more of the
2:53purpose and strategic focus into the
2:55business. Create our narrative um about
2:59OD and the services that um get
3:02communicated externally. Uh love
3:05innovation that's been a strong theme in
3:08my work and in the work of our company
3:10forever. Um so innovation in terms of
3:13film making which um Karen has mentioned
3:16constellations which I've been involved
3:18in for 25 to 30 years and um particular
3:22OD tools that we've developed like a
3:23standpoints board and I guess I've got a
3:27particular interest in the development
3:29of our coaching services the leadership
3:32development services and um learning and
3:35development generally whereas my
3:36business partner and friend John Riley
3:38who's the other half of our director
3:40team has more of a focus on uh
3:44facilitation and um corporate aes. So
3:47that's kind of a bit about us and my
3:49focus within the range of services that
3:51we present in these really interesting
3:54times right where there's massive
3:55organization disruption and um I think
3:58like most of my colleagues and the
4:00people I supervise we're kind of
4:01teetering on the edge of seeing what
4:04direction OD takes going forwards. So,
4:07who knows?
4:07>> And I was thinking as you were talking
4:09there about cultural transformation,
4:10there's probably a lot of consultancies
4:12and practices out there that that say
4:14they do that. So, how would you say that
4:16your your approach to that differs maybe
4:18from the usual?
4:19>> Yeah. I mean, I don't know if there are
4:21that many companies out there who
4:23genuinely focus on cultural
4:26transformation. Um, how does ours
4:29differ? I guess that comes back to what
4:31I said about the philosophy. So I guess
4:33I would describe our difference in this
4:36field as um systemic co-creative really
4:42important um enabling breakthroughs and
4:46um enabling breakthroughs through a deep
4:48attention to relationships and patterns
4:50in organizations. So those are kind of
4:52real buzzwords for me personally and and
4:55for us within our business, you know,
4:57systemic co-creative breakthrough and
5:00hard to name it without sounding flaky,
5:03but love.
5:04>> Okay,
5:05>> I mean love is really important not as
5:07some fluffy concept, but I love like
5:10what Bert Helinger, the founder of
5:12Constellation says about love. He says
5:14that love is um about uh distance and
5:19seeing minus judgment. And that's a very
5:23practical view of love. But the other
5:25one that I really um is central to how
5:27we try to work is by the evolutionary
5:31biologist Alberto Materana and he says
5:34that most problems in companies are not
5:36solved through competition and they're
5:38not solved through fighting and they're
5:40not solved through authority. they are
5:42solved through the only emotion that
5:45brings about creative thinking. Um there
5:49the expansion of creativity is only
5:52enabled through love and that as a
5:56statement of difference for the way that
5:59we approach OD has lasted for a long
6:02time. So it isn't that we go in and you
6:04know want to love our clients in a flaky
6:06way, but we're deeply interested in a
6:08question such as what does it take to
6:11love this team to life? What does it
6:13take to love this organization to life?
6:16And that as an enabling framework and an
6:19underpinning philosophy of our work, I
6:21think gives us a real a real difference.
6:23It's not easy to articulate that so
6:26directly to clients, but it's something
6:27that we we bring as part of the uh the
6:31invisible package of goodies, I guess,
6:33that um we share with our clients in
6:36that co-creative space.
6:37>> Yeah, that using that word love in a
6:38kind of an organizational context is
6:41probably really counterultural for a lot
6:42of lot of organizations and leaders. So,
6:45>> well, I mean, it's um you mentioned uh
6:49Gary my interest in constellations work,
6:51systemic constellations work, but
6:53originally it wasn't called
6:55constellations work, of course, it was
6:56called the orders of love work. And
6:58because I have a real passion for
7:01poetry, the the poetry of that name
7:04really grabbed me uh nearly 30 years
7:06ago. And the constellation was the
7:09methodology for enabling the
7:11practitioner to see how to make love
7:13flow through family and organizational
7:15systems. So how do you how does love put
7:18things in order I guess was behind
7:21constellations work more generally and I
7:23think I kind of picked up on that
7:24somehow and kind of connected some dots
7:26in a practical way in our OD practice
7:28>> just because our audience is really
7:30varied. Some people might be brand new
7:31to the idea of constellation work. So
7:34can you just articulate that just for
7:35people who might be going I don't know
7:37what that is. What does does that look
7:38like? What do you mean?
7:39>> Yeah. So systemic constellations work is
7:43a way of physically mapping um say
7:47physically but it could be virtual or
7:48it's physically mapping the issues that
7:51a client has by using the the bodies of
7:55representatives. So people sit in a
7:57circle typically and a client comes
8:00forward with an issue that they want to
8:01dis uh discuss and describe and explore.
8:04I have a brief conversation as a
8:05facilitator with them and based on that
8:07conversation I would invite them
8:09intuitively to look around the circle of
8:11people um in the workshop and select
8:15somebody to represent the organizational
8:18culture, somebody to represent the chief
8:20executive officer, somebody to represent
8:22themselves as a player in that system.
8:25and then they um stand behind those
8:28people who are representing aspects of
8:30their system and they position them in
8:33the circle. It's not like psycho drama
8:35because the only things that matter in
8:37setting up a constellation is how close
8:39together or far apart these
8:41representatives bodies are and which
8:43direction they're facing. And then
8:45through this remarkable and um
8:48mysterious process, the representatives
8:51start to describe experiences of what
8:55it's like in the system that they are
8:56not a part of. And uh through a series
9:00of movements and and and offered
9:02sentences, what a client sees from a
9:05kind of objective fly on the wall
9:06position is what is really causing the
9:10snarlup in their system. What what's
9:11creating the drag factor in their
9:13system? and what can be done about it.
9:16So in a way a constellation is a living
9:19map of an issue in three-dimensional
9:22space that enables a client to see the
9:24essence of a problem and to take a
9:27couple of first steps in resolving that
9:29problem. So it's a really cool and very
9:31practical methodology. Originally it was
9:34used in physical um settings but
9:37increasingly there are virtual
9:38applications because you can move uh
9:40post-its on a whiteboard around for
9:42example in virtual space
9:44>> and I think you know one of the things
9:45that struck me as I was reading your
9:46book was that phrase systemic seeing and
9:48the importance of the role of the
9:50practitioner to help people see what's
9:52there and see what the system
9:54>> is in front of them and that kind of
9:55being that seeing that and acknowledging
9:57that being the first step in doing
9:59something different. Most of us live in
10:01a culture that um doesn't support us
10:05seeing systemically.
10:06>> That is it doesn't support us looking at
10:09historical patterns and connections and
10:12relationship systems. You know we live
10:14in a culture of individualism really
10:17where the assumption is that uh if I
10:19make a personal development or a
10:21personal performance plan at the end of
10:22the year and I just you know with will
10:24and skill
10:26>> pass it through I develop a strategy and
10:28we execute that strategy we'll get a
10:29result but what that doesn't show and
10:32what a constellation shows are the
10:34invisible dynamics that get in the way
10:36or that support change and
10:38transformation in organizations. But the
10:41the shift from looking from an
10:44individualist paradigm to a relational
10:47or systemic paradigm is quite a thing to
10:50achieve. But once you get it, you know,
10:51once the penny dropped, you start to see
10:53connections everywhere. And and it
10:55really it's like looking at a system and
10:58an organizational culture through X-ray
11:00eyes, you don't just see what's on the
11:02choppy surface, but you see actually
11:04kind of what's on the ocean floor as
11:06well. It's really fascinating.
11:08>> Garen, I know you've probably got a
11:09thousand questions. I I do. Yeah. No,
11:12it's absolutely fascinating, is it?
11:13Because I guess, you know, the
11:14organization chart only goes far to
11:16represent how an organization actually
11:17is. And this is a way of sort of
11:19representing sort of the hidden
11:20structures and patterns cuz cuz often
11:22there will be instances where people may
11:25not feel like they're in the right
11:26place. So, for example, we work with
11:28lots of founder organizations and
11:30>> as organizations go into Second Life,
11:32it's often it can be difficult for those
11:33founders to find their place, can't
11:35they? I don't know if I understand your
11:38question because I don't think in my
11:39experience it's difficult for founders
11:42to find their place um within the theory
11:45base of constellations work the founders
11:48place is singular and unique and super
11:50important um because without the founder
11:54setting up a business nobody else gets
11:57employment and customers don't get
11:59served. So the role of a founder in
12:01systemic constellations work is actually
12:03a really important and central one and
12:06in family businesses as well of course
12:08as in non-family businesses. So uh what
12:11might happen what you might be referring
12:13to is the fact that the uh the weight
12:17and gravity and importance of the
12:19founders place isn't fully acknowledged
12:20by others. You know there might be
12:23competition among uh those people who
12:26were first in developing the business. I
12:28mean my my belief is that there is only
12:31ever one founder. They sometimes my
12:33clients say, "Well, the two of us are
12:35founders." Well, no, no, no. I don't
12:37think that's possible because the idea
12:38for the business didn't simultaneously
12:40drop into two or three people's heads at
12:42the same time. No, somebody had the
12:45spark. Somebody carried the torch.
12:47Somebody was the inspiration. And so
12:50while for me the founders's place is
12:52unarguably primary
12:55um it's true that in the development of
12:58a business the first follower or first
13:01followers have a different but equally
13:04important place. I mean within my own uh
13:06business for example MIS um I I'm I'm
13:09the founder but the development of the
13:12business really accelerated when John
13:15Riley came on board because he brought
13:16different things different skills and
13:19his support of my kind of vision and
13:21sense of what the organization was for
13:23has really made it thrive for for for
13:25many years but uh we're fortunate in
13:28that there's no argument over who comes
13:30first in a sense in terms of founding
13:32position in our business I've worked for
13:35um organizations like small but but high
13:38worth startups, high-tech startups where
13:42the place of who is the founder and who
13:44is the first follower is contested and
13:46what happens is that the the director
13:49team can't settle and that there are
13:52problems downstream,
13:54right? Because until the place of the
13:56founder is acknowledged as the person
13:58without whom nobody else would have a
14:00job, things can't flow.
14:02>> Yeah. No, that's a lovely answer. Thanks
14:03for taking my um question on to another
14:05level. Yeah, cuz I think someone we see
14:07in organizations quite a lot. We work
14:08with quite a few where an organization
14:10has grown quite quickly and the founder
14:12now is wondering where do I go from
14:14here? I need to bring in professional
14:16staff to to lead the organization and
14:18often they go into chair.
14:20>> Um and it's it's that kind of transition
14:22phase, isn't it? Where things like this
14:23can they go beyond the sort of the
14:25delves of what language can do, can't
14:27they? And a restructure to help people
14:28sort of find their place in the
14:30organization.
14:31>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Um and and
14:34[clears throat] you've described one of
14:35several kind of transitional times in
14:37the life of a business. You know, there
14:39are mergers and acquisitions which uh
14:40represent another really important
14:42transitional time. But any period of
14:45growth in an organization holds
14:48tensions, right? um uh tensions that are
14:52to do with um who's acknowledged, who's
14:55seen to be more important, who's
14:56bringing more sales in, who's carrying
14:58the responsibility for people
15:00development in the organization. And so
15:02getting alignment around those things
15:04can take a little bit of time and can
15:06can be tricky. I mean, this is
15:08breadandbut work to most organizational
15:10development consultants and and coaches,
15:12of course. Um, and I guess um I guess
15:18until a director team of a relatively
15:21new business, which I think is what
15:22you're referring to, until a director
15:23team sits down and really identifies,
15:26you know, what is my place, then there's
15:29going to be competition and snalup and
15:32and hidden dynamics. But I think it's
15:34not only about finding your place,
15:37finding your unique contribution,
15:39finding the purpose that enliven your
15:41part of the organization. Um, I think
15:44it's also about fully inhabiting your
15:46place. So I work with lots of
15:49organizations that have teams that are
15:52suboptimal in terms of their
15:53performance. And the reason is often
15:55because people don't perform to the
15:57extent of the authority that's given by
15:59their place in the system. But then I
16:02think there's another dynamic relating
16:04to place um Garin which isn't to do with
16:08the structural place you know the the
16:11role that somebody has and their place
16:13in the organizational hierarchy it has
16:16to do with the time spent in the
16:18organization. So there's another level
16:20of hierarchy because somebody who spent
16:2320 years in an organization and has
16:25given their best in that time these days
16:28might suddenly feel upstaged by some
16:30young buck who's come in and knows all
16:31about AI um and has skills that are
16:34necessary for the next stage in the life
16:36of the business. And so I think there
16:39can be some jostling until the relative
16:43seniority in terms of time spent and
16:46loyalty to the business is acknowledged
16:48relative to those skills that will
16:50enable the business to move into the
16:52future. Well, so you know there are
16:54hidden hierarchies that are relative to
16:57place and and time spent as well as
17:00those structural ones that you
17:01mentioned. I think yeah, I was going to
17:03say the time spent was one of the things
17:04that resonated as I was reading the book
17:06and I was looking back to kind of my
17:08experiences in organizations that were
17:09going through transitions and the damage
17:11that was done by not acknowledging what
17:14had come before and the history and the
17:16the legacy and the importance of kind of
17:19naming that and owning it,
17:21>> recognizing it before you kind of move
17:23forward. And
17:24>> yeah,
17:25>> you know, the idea of, you know, we'll
17:27often hear particularly CEOs, I think,
17:29oh, I need somebody to come in and
17:30disrupt. I need disruption. Um, and it's
17:33actually got to be skillful disruption
17:35because you need to to honor what's come
17:37before before you can move forward.
17:39>> Well, any disruption that isn't matched
17:41by at least an equal amount of support
17:44for the disruption is going to cause
17:46problems. and and you know that's an old
17:48Gestalt maxim of course is that change
17:51requires an equivalent level of support
17:53to enable that change. Um but part of
17:57the blind spot in organizational
17:59strategy I think Danny is that
18:02organizational executives assume that
18:04strategy is all about looking to the
18:06future whereas you know people like
18:09Rupert Sheldrake have said talked about
18:11the presence of the past as an influence
18:13in the organization now and in our
18:15social lives now and therefore if you're
18:19setting strategy that's only future
18:21facing and you're not looking at the
18:23lessons learned from the past in your
18:25particular organization and in your
18:27market. I think that can compromise
18:30strategy sometimes and it can challenge
18:34people who've been with the business for
18:35a little bit of time. You know, who've
18:37who've learned to live through different
18:39time periods and seen change come and go
18:41and they think, "Oh, here's another
18:43one." So change is often not given its
18:46place and not contextualized
18:48and yet teams are still expected to
18:50execute change. Right.
18:52>> And that's tricky.
18:53>> Yeah. And I this is such an interesting
18:55area because I think nothing creates
18:57more chaos in an organization than a
18:59senior appointment that goes bad in
19:01terms of just the sheer amount of
19:02disruption and whatnot too. Um but it's
19:05often not as simple as the person coming
19:06on board, is it? Sometimes it can be a
19:09case where um they're coming in and
19:12maybe there's been a trauma in the
19:13organization past and people else
19:15haven't worked out and they might be car
19:17How does your work sort of support
19:19transitions to kind of sort of give
19:21people, you know, stack the odds of
19:23probability that they may work out more
19:24than others?
19:25>> Um that's a good question. Um well I I
19:29think that we we work best in MIS when
19:33we can create a relationship with an
19:36important internal team. It might just
19:39be one or one or two people on on the
19:41inside um who are sensitive and aware
19:44and interested in what we're doing kind
19:46of act as brokers with some of the more
19:48senior clients. Um that kind of
19:51co-creative relationship is really
19:53important and of course we absolutely
19:56must have access to senior clients. Very
19:58often senior people don't want to talk
20:00to externals. They want to pass it
20:03downstream and not be bothered with it.
20:05But I think our insistence on developing
20:08at least a familiarity with a senior
20:10team is part of makes work successful.
20:15Really getting their clarity on it and
20:16challenging their thinking in a
20:18constructive way. working co-creatively
20:20with an internal team um who can make us
20:24aware and sensitize us to some nuances
20:26inside the organizational culture we
20:28might not be aware of. Those are two
20:30kind of really critically important
20:32ingredients. You mentioned trauma in
20:35there as well and that's been um a
20:37really fascinating field of study for me
20:40for a number of years because I realized
20:43as a result of being invited to run a
20:45workshop on organizational trauma and
20:47constellations many years ago. Um the
20:49workshop went disastrously wrong because
20:52I realized after the event that one of
20:54the participants
20:56was being triggered his own personal
20:58trauma was being triggered and it had a
21:00massively disrupting effect on the
21:01workshop. I didn't understand it. So I
21:04went away and gave a lot of thought to
21:05what happened. And I I believe that
21:09organizational trauma, also called
21:12cultural trauma, is a huge impediment to
21:15the success of many organizational
21:17strategies. But it's like um it's like
21:20it's hiding in plain sight, right? It's
21:23it's obvious when you know what you're
21:24looking for that there are signs and
21:26symptoms of a traumatized culture, but
21:28there's not enough awareness of it. And
21:30so change agents internal and external
21:33might be working to bring about some
21:35shift, some transformation in the
21:37organization. And they keep hitting upon
21:39different kinds of resistance. And not
21:41often enough do we put the this
21:43resistance down to some event or a
21:46series of events in the past that has
21:48really damaged the culture. and and so a
21:51lot of change initiatives I think are
21:53compromised by not acknowledging that
21:56it's not just resistance per se that is
21:58a problem in terms of uh drag factors to
22:01change but there could be something
22:03bigger and deeper and more important to
22:04focus on
22:06>> that's such an interesting area isn't it
22:08and and I guess just two questions on
22:09that so what what defines what is a
22:11trauma for an organization um and how do
22:14you go about helping an organization
22:16process trauma
22:17>> yeah there's no single easy pat
22:22definition of organizational trauma I
22:25think except that it's um it's evidenced
22:29by a profound stuckness in the
22:32relational and operational fabric of the
22:35organization.
22:36And um of course loads of organizations
22:40that are not traumatized can feel stuck
22:44and have relationship breakdowns and
22:46operational hiccups. But what's
22:48interesting about organizational trauma
22:50for me from the research that we've been
22:52doing in MIS is that it's identified not
22:55by one thing but by um a um an
22:59arrangement an assortment a collection
23:01if you like a constellation of different
23:03symptoms. So a stuckness uh there could
23:06be examples of suicide in the
23:08organization. Uh there's probably going
23:11to be some kind of corporate merger at
23:14some point in the recent history. I mean
23:17co
23:18created cultural trauma for some
23:20organizations which went out of business
23:21and some managed to to survive. But the
23:24difficult thing about diagnosing
23:26organizational trauma is that um there's
23:28no one indicator that says therefore
23:31this is a traumatized culture. You have
23:33to look at a system of different
23:36symptoms and connect the dots. And um uh
23:40the interesting thing then is that
23:42trauma is not about a precipitating
23:45event that happens. Okay? Because the
23:48same event, take COVID more recently,
23:51the same event that can traumatize one
23:53organizational culture and grind things
23:55to a halt doesn't seem to affect a
23:57different organization even in the same
23:59market. So trauma is not about the
24:02event. It's about the um the capacity to
24:07uh have some resilience in the face of
24:10difficult circumstances.
24:12And um so the connection between your
24:15stress and resilience and trauma is an
24:16interesting one.
24:17>> Yeah. No, I love that. It's almost like
24:19everything is relative, isn't it? For
24:21some people, this is a huge crisis. For
24:23other companies, it's it's Tuesday.
24:25>> Yeah.
24:26>> But it's it's all how people do it. So
24:29if you like start to as a practitioner
24:31start to get a hint that there might be
24:33trauma in the organization, like how as
24:35a practitioner can you in a safe enough
24:37way, if there is such a way to sort of
24:39surface it and start getting people to
24:40work through that? Yeah. So, a couple of
24:42principles and firstly I have not found
24:45it helpful to name the fact to a
24:48director team or a management team that
24:50this team or this organization is
24:52traumatized.
24:54That's just not helpful. It can be
24:56pathizing. It slaps a label on that, you
24:59know, gets in the way of of change. Um,
25:02so I I almost never name it. It's not
25:06necessary. I think what has to happen is
25:09firstly that the leadership team needs
25:13to be sensitized to the need to slow
25:16interventions down which that's not
25:18easy. Every leadership team I've worked
25:20with wants to put their foot on the
25:21accelerator and kind of rip away you
25:23know but you you have to go more slowly
25:26with organizational trauma. Um, you have
25:30to work at the level of leadership and
25:31very often what that means is that you
25:34have to re-energize the quality of
25:36leadership in that organization because
25:38leaders are uh carriers of trauma
25:43symptoms, but they're also the ones who
25:46have the power and the ability to do
25:48something about it. So being able to
25:50work with a leadership team and get them
25:53to look at the history of the
25:54organization at particular events that
25:56might be causing difficulty, whether
25:59there would be what I would call, you
26:00know, stroke of fate events like big
26:02disruptions, external disruptions or
26:04whether there are persistent examples of
26:08bullying in the organization over
26:10generations of management for example.
26:12You that kind of drip feed can also um
26:14look at trauma. So getting the leaders
26:16to be aware of what might be below the
26:18surface that is causing a reaction in
26:22change and in strategy development is
26:24and re-energizing the quality of
26:26leadership. That's central. Lots of
26:28leadership teams in organizational
26:30cultures that we've worked with feel
26:32flat. They feel stuck. They don't know
26:35where to go. And so it's going to take a
26:37year or so just, you know, bit by bit to
26:39get them to feel like we can connect
26:41here. We have hope here. We believe that
26:44what we're doing can impact the future
26:46in a positive way. I mean, those are
26:47really important things for a leadership
26:49team to believe in. But beyond that, the
26:53way that we work is to create dialogic
26:55spaces to create spaces for connection
26:57between people. The first of those
26:59spaces is that the that teams need
27:02spaces where they can acknowledge the
27:04reality of the situation. They can
27:07acknowledge what is causing the
27:08stuckness. they can acknowledge
27:10disjunctions in relationships without
27:12having to do anything about them. But
27:14just naming the elephants in the room is
27:17a really helpful and healing thing to
27:18do. Um, coincidentally, I think that was
27:21done many years ago in South Africa with
27:23the dismantling of apartheid and and um
27:25when Bishop Tutu started to have those
27:28truth and reconciliation commissions,
27:30you know, those were spaces where the
27:32gravity of the situation was
27:35acknowledged and there were no
27:36consequences for telling the truth. I
27:38mean that's a really important thing.
27:40>> I think uh a couple of other dialogic
27:42spaces that are important uh are not
27:45just a space for acknowledging what is
27:47but a space for meaning making a space
27:50for reframing the organizational reality
27:53a space for finding what is it that we
27:56can believe in and what is precious
27:58still about our organizational culture.
28:00So a space for different kinds of
28:02meaning making which involves challenge
28:05from externals. Of course it involves
28:06challenge to people's thinking. It
28:08involves challenge to the ways that
28:10they're holding their belief system
28:12about the organization or the team. And
28:15then there's another space where so
28:17acknowledge acknowledging what is is
28:19really important and foundational I
28:21would say um holding spaces where
28:23different meaning can be made of the
28:25current situation and the historical
28:27situation but then spaces where capacity
28:31is built in terms of skills and
28:33capabilities that teams have because
28:36many director teams think well we've
28:38articulated the strategy now they should
28:40get on with it and if there's a need for
28:42skills up um development then go on a
28:45training course. But actually there are
28:47different kinds of capabilities that
28:49need to be installed and that takes
28:50time. It's not just a case of importing
28:52new people. If you do that into a
28:54traumatized culture, they will become
28:56symptom bearers, right? But building
28:58capacity in a structured way towards the
29:01future is important. And then once teams
29:04believe that truth is told here and I'm
29:07seeing things differently and we as a
29:09team have the capacity and capability to
29:12do something and to use our agency then
29:15the team and the organization is ready
29:17to co-create the future. And that's the
29:18fourth of the kinds of spaces. And very
29:21often in traumatized organizations, the
29:24director team doesn't have the energy to
29:28support change. Um, even though they
29:30really want it and they've articulated
29:32it and they've named the change that's
29:33required and they leap to wanting teams
29:36to co-create the future, just get on
29:38with it, but they can't. So in a way the
29:43development of these dialogic spaces and
29:46the importance of re-energizing
29:48leadership that's no different in my
29:51books than really good quality OD work.
29:53I mean I think we should all be doing
29:54that all of the time. Yeah.
29:56>> And therefore, it is the sensitivity and
29:58awareness of the practitioner that is
30:01one of the critical ingredients in
30:03knowing what's going on and knowing how
30:05to hold ourselves in relation to
30:07difficult cultures, traumatized cultures
30:10and the change that those organization
30:11leaders want to see in their businesses.
30:13>> Yeah, I'm just going to draw on one of
30:14the threads you mentioned that you
30:16mentioned the symptom bearers. The idea
30:17that you have people who have become
30:19symptom bears, you can change the the
30:21individual but there, you know, the role
30:22will still be carrying the symptoms. Can
30:24you say more about that because I think
30:25that's something organizations don't
30:27recognize enough.
30:29>> Yeah. Um this idea of symptombearers
30:32comes directly through systemic
30:33constellations work where there was a
30:36recognition that um well if you think of
30:39a body let's approach it from a
30:40different angle. If you think of of the
30:42body and you've got back ache, right?
30:46You go to the doctor and you get treated
30:47for backachche. Um, whatever you get
30:50some tablets or you get some physio, but
30:52actually if you go to a chiropractor,
30:54the chiropractor will tell you that the
30:56pain in your back has to do with the way
30:59that your feet are turned out. Right? So
31:01we know from uh uh complimentary
31:04therapies and from medical practice that
31:06pain in one part of the body is actually
31:08caused by a symptom somewhere else in
31:11the body. It's the same in
31:13organizational cultures that um there
31:16are people who are called symptombearers
31:19who show the dysfunction but the
31:22dysfunction might belong to others at
31:25somewhere else in the system. I mean in
31:27very prosaic terms for example it could
31:30be that the marketing team gets
31:32criticized because none of the marketing
31:34materials and the marketing
31:35communications work is getting any any
31:37clients. Well actually the problem
31:40becomes one of the fact that the
31:42publishing company hasn't produced the
31:44marketing materials quickly enough for
31:45the salesforce to use. So you know where
31:47do you put the acupuncture needle is a
31:50metaphor that I use. Where do you put
31:51the acupuncture needle if you look at
31:53things systemically? Do you put it in
31:55the back of the patient with a
31:57backachche or do you stick it in their
31:59foot in organizational development work?
32:02Do you do the intervention at the place
32:05of the symptombearers, you know, the
32:07marketing team? Or do you start to look
32:10more broadly and deeply and systemically
32:12and realize, well, actually perhaps
32:14they're the wrong marketing materials
32:16and we need to be reooking at marketing
32:18strategy at the executive level. So
32:22these decisions are really important
32:24discriminations that I think systemic
32:26practitioners are becoming more
32:28sensitized and aware of making that
32:30symptom bearers might show you what's
32:33wrong but they the cause of those
32:35symptoms might be somewhere else in the
32:36organizational body. I just
32:41>> laughing Gary just D and I have been
32:43circling a work problem for about a week
32:45or so and you see I've just worked it
32:47out.
32:48>> [laughter]
32:50>> Thank you, Ty.
32:52>> Well done. Thank you. [laughter]
32:54>> Real story here. You know, a few years
32:55ago, I lived in in I lived near
32:57Manchester and um a real good friend of
33:00mine had to go to a hospital clinic in
33:02Manchester. And when he went there um on
33:06time for his appointment, the clinic was
33:08running 3 hours behind. And he was like
33:11really fed up and a bit angry and he
33:14grumbled when he got home and I saw him
33:15again and he had another appointment a
33:17week later, same day, went along same
33:20time, another 3-hour wait. Now, what's
33:23the problem there? because he thought
33:26that the problem had to do with a
33:28hospital's um waiting list and
33:31appointment system. But actually when
33:33you start to look systemically, you know
33:35what? If it's not about the hospital,
33:36let let's let's draw back. Let's see
33:39what other systems are involved. What we
33:41started to realize was that they were
33:43giving him appointments to get to the
33:46hospital early in the morning when over
33:48that period of time there were road
33:49works happening on an important arterial
33:52road into Manchester. the symptoms were
33:55the hospital waiting list but the cause
33:58had nothing to do with the hospital. You
34:00know, that's what you see when you start
34:01to look systemically, when you look,
34:03well, actually, we're talking polyistic
34:06theory here, right? We're looking at
34:07multiple overlapping systems. So, you
34:10could waste a lot of time if you were
34:12the head of OD in that hospital trying
34:14to fix the appointment system. It
34:17wouldn't work because the real problem
34:20has to do with the social context and
34:23the geographic context and the motorway
34:25network.
34:26>> Yeah, that's it's an important part of
34:28the practitioner's work, isn't it? I'm
34:29gonna just use my high school French
34:31here. You said a really lovely thing
34:32which is uh to complend to pard.
34:37So to to understand everything is to
34:40forgive everything. And that's a it's a
34:42lovely saying you have about systemic
34:43sight. Could you just open that up a
34:45little bit for us?
34:48>> Um yeah it it it is if it um it it comes
34:53back to this underpinning philosophy of
34:54love um in the non-flaky sense that I
34:57mentioned earlier. So there are
34:59different aspects of love at work in
35:01organizational um systems. Um respect is
35:05an aspect of love. Um and um
35:08acknowledgement is an aspect of love.
35:10You know, fairness in dealing with
35:13people is an aspect of love and and um
35:16compassionate regard for one another and
35:18for the difficulties that teams are
35:20having when they're trying hard is
35:22another aspect of love. So for a
35:24systemic practitioner, if you have to
35:28try to rise above and beyond blame and
35:31educate your client system to get beyond
35:34blame because if you're really looking
35:36at the balance of issues systemically,
35:40it's hard to say he or she or they or it
35:43is to blame because we're looking at the
35:45inter relationship between very complex
35:48dynamics of multiple overlapping
35:50systems. You know, it's a plate of
35:52spaghetti. The plate of spaghetti
35:55doesn't taste so good. Tell me which
35:56strand of spaghetti is to blame. I mean,
35:58it just doesn't work. So when you start
36:01to see systemically, when you get this
36:03meta perspective and you really tune in
36:06to the interrelated nature of things,
36:09you kind of start to see that blame is a
36:12worthless task and that um understanding
36:17something is akin to just um well it's
36:22it's related to helping the system
36:23relax.
36:24>> Love that. So I think that's what I mean
36:26by my rendition of that that beautiful
36:29kind of French expression.
36:30>> Yeah. And I think that's one of the
36:31things that struck me the idea of
36:33attending without judging. Um which you
36:35know I've I've picked up from the book.
36:37I think the other thing there were two
36:38other things I particularly wanted to
36:40ask you about. One was around creative
36:41indifference. So the idea that we're not
36:43we're not tied to outcomes and what we
36:45think should happen that we're just
36:47willing to kind of suspend that and just
36:50let happen what needs to happen rather
36:52than driving things in a particular way.
36:54I think that can be challenging for some
36:56practitioners, I think, to let go of
36:58that.
36:58>> It's hugely challenging for some
37:00practitioners, not only to let go of it.
37:03I mean, I mean, I think I've I've let go
37:05of it, but it's very challenging for all
37:08practitioners in the contracting phase
37:10of any piece of OD work. You know, a
37:13client says, "We need X, Y, and Zed to
37:15happen." And it's really hard to say,
37:17well, I there are no guarantees. Sorry.
37:19You know, yeah, we'll do our best, but
37:21we'll see. I mean, that just doesn't
37:23work as a sales line, okay? It doesn't
37:25engender trust, but that's actually what
37:27we're talking about. And so, you have to
37:29develop a facility for um engaging the
37:33client without overpromising and
37:35engaging the client in a way that keeps
37:38the elbow room for your intervention
37:40spacious and open. You know, it's too
37:43easy to get tied down in a transactional
37:46form of delivery when we're interested
37:48in in transformational work rather than
37:51transactional work. So, we do what we
37:54can in the contracting phase to kind of
37:56open the brief up a little bit more and
37:59to talk to different people at different
38:00levels of the system to try to get a
38:03deeper understanding from people within
38:05the client organization of what the real
38:07issues are before we begin work. And
38:10then we can start to redirect the path
38:14of attention of the client. But you know
38:17creating a storyline, creating a
38:19narrative that helps the client see that
38:22they can get probably more than what
38:25they they want and what they expect
38:28but in a different way. That's um that's
38:32important I think for external
38:34consultancies to be able to develop that
38:35facility. So creative indifference. So
38:38that that's that's creative indifference
38:40at the entry point in terms of selling
38:42an approach that fundamentally says
38:44sorry you can't guarantee the results.
38:45Nobody can. Um and I think the results
38:48can be guaranteed in some fields. By the
38:50way, if you're looking at technical
38:52systems, you know, IT systems, that kind
38:54of thing, fine. If you're looking at
38:56culture transformation, leadership
38:58development, team development, it's not
39:00so fine. It it it's just it's a myth.
39:04So that's um creative indifference in
39:07the contracting phase. But then as you
39:10go along, I think what I've learned
39:12through my Gestalt background and
39:15through my constellations background is
39:17the folly of trying to set too rigid a
39:20goal and and the folly of being invested
39:24in that goal as externals because it's
39:27the client's job to keep reframing and
39:31reorienting and renavigating where they
39:33want to get to. and and um I'm a real
39:36believer in the fact of um kind of
39:40emergent change that you might have a
39:42declared direction. I mean this is
39:44classical Henry Minsburg strategy stuff,
39:47right? You might well have a declared
39:49strategic direction and an end point and
39:52a great plan to get there, but then
39:55happens. You know, the winds of change
39:57blow. So, you have to keep adapting as
40:00you go along. And I think most senior
40:03teams that I've come across um that
40:06makes good sense to them. So there is a
40:08trick to delivering concrete tangible
40:13client expectations and results that
40:16might be a little beyond or a little bit
40:18different than those initially
40:19contracted. But communicating with a
40:22client and keeping the client involved
40:23and co-creating things as they go
40:25forward, that's the key. And I think a
40:28lot of the bigger consultancies who do a
40:30great job, but they kind of they sell an
40:32outcome, they sell a process, they
40:34execute the process, take the money and
40:36run a lot of the time to be frank, you
40:37know, and and and there are some
40:40benefits to organizations sometimes from
40:43those approaches. We often get called in
40:46to do a bit of kind of tidying up and a
40:48bit of relational repair work. Relaxing
40:51people again by helping them see what is
40:54really needed for change to happen but
40:57not taking on the task of making the
40:59change happen ourselves. That would be
41:01in my opinion an inflation of our role
41:05as externals. Hi, we're just pausing
41:07this interview for a moment. Have you
41:09ever finished an episode of the org dev
41:11podcast and wish you had a cheat sheet
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41:16Us too? So, we made [music] one. It's
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41:48think. We'd love to get your feedback.
41:49>> Um, a lot of our audience cuz one of the
41:52sort of the drivers is to inspire the
41:53next generation of practitioners.
41:55>> Yeah.
41:55>> And as you're entering a system, you've
41:57mentioned some of the things already. So
41:58you see blame and people trying to
42:00recruit you to their story as you're
42:03going in and you're listening and and we
42:05we can easily become entangled in
42:06things, can't we? As well for for those
42:09that are becoming practitioners, how do
42:12they stand on solid ground? How like you
42:14know you you're clearly someone who's
42:16developed a lot in themselves over the
42:18years like how do you help someone sort
42:19of because we talk about self as
42:21instrument. How do you sort of stand on
42:23solid ground and keep a good place in
42:25relation to the system? I think there's
42:28not a lot of really new stuff that I can
42:32say about that question specifically
42:35Garin because um yes self as instrument
42:39is important you know like you are the
42:42primary instrument of change in the work
42:45that that you do and so um getting great
42:49supervision looking at your own patterns
42:52looking at your own blind spots um
42:54making sure that you are grounded ed and
42:57resourced for the work that you do. All
42:59of those every even rookie OD
43:02practitioner knows. And I think
43:05establishing
43:07your authority um and your weight at a
43:10senior level with the client so that
43:13you're not just ridden rough shot over,
43:15but that you can stand your ground, you
43:17can articulate
43:19your philosophy and your views, that you
43:22can be honest, you know. So establishing
43:24good relationships covers all of that
43:26stuff. Again, that's not new. Um, the
43:30thing that interests me about your
43:31question is how becoming practitioners
43:35today are making sense of OD, right?
43:38because I I think that there's a debate
43:43that we need to have as OD practitioners
43:45about the relevance and the positioning
43:46and the framing of OD these days because
43:50there's been a massive shift from um
43:53expert consulting to internal capability
43:57development like loads of clients uh
43:59pretty damn good at their own coaching
44:01now thanks very much lots of HR teams
44:04are pretty damn good thanks very much at
44:05developing people strategies and change
44:08strategies
44:09And uh there's also a fragmentation into
44:13different fields of what used to be
44:15classic OD practice. So HR and people
44:17teams on the one hand and you know
44:19culture teams and agile working people
44:22analytics that so there's a
44:23fragmentation of the field of OD and the
44:27old story of OD you know classical OD
44:29assumed planned linear change uh it
44:33looked at the organization as a very
44:35boundaried system. We made rational
44:37interventions even though in the old
44:39days of sociotechnical redesign you know
44:41we had the technical stuff and the
44:42social stuff it's all very very rational
44:45but now that doesn't hold anymore I mean
44:49organizations are messy and complex
44:52constantly shifting socially constructed
44:54systems AI enabled management is having
44:57a huge impact in organizations these
45:00days and um you know and in that context
45:05what helps keep a new as well as us um
45:09older in the tooth practitioners
45:10grounded and useful. I think that's a
45:13really important question. Um my own
45:16view is of um an emerging OD focus on
45:21enabling AI and human interaction and
45:24collaboration of looking at the ethical
45:27and the cultural implications of
45:29automation because every client system
45:31is doing that and I think OD is becoming
45:33a meta discipline these days which has
45:36to do with the discipline of bringing
45:39coherence to organizations
45:42um navigating complex lexity, not just
45:45change. Um, designing adaptive and
45:48emergent systems, rehumanizing
45:50organizations, you know, looking at
45:52issues like well-being and identity and
45:54meaning making in organizations,
45:57those are those are big tasks. So to
46:01come back to your question, even for
46:03experienced practitioners, you know, we
46:05have to rethink our role. So how do
46:08becoming OD practitioners get grounded
46:10in all of that? Well, they have to know
46:13themselves. They have to know their
46:15capabilities. They have to get a
46:17different kind of education than, you
46:19know, certainly than I had, I mean, 30,
46:2140 years ago when I was getting my teeth
46:23into OD. Um, and they have to be looking
46:27at at the interaction of systems over
46:30time. I mean, I was never told that
46:32until I started looking at
46:33constellations work. Well, I think the
46:36education of newer OD practitioners and
46:39the grounding of their practice in deep
46:42self insight and the psychology of
46:44change is becoming ever more critical.
46:47>> Yeah, it's it's a really big discussion,
46:49isn't it? And I guess one of the things
46:50I'm enjoying about um the way in which
46:52you articulate things is you feel
46:54comfortable in a number of worlds.
46:55That's my understanding of this. So, you
46:57know, you're comfortable talking about
46:58Gestalt or the constellations, but
47:00you're also really comfortable and
47:01articulate in the commercial world as
47:03well. How how important do you think it
47:05is for modern practitioners to be
47:06comfortable and sit literate in those
47:09different areas?
47:10>> Um you h I think you have to be similar
47:14enough to fit in to an organization and
47:18different enough to stand out as an
47:21external perhaps as an internal as well.
47:24Um so um you you've to be seen to have a
47:30grounded and strategic perspective.
47:34You've got to be able to constructively
47:37challenge and tell the truth to very
47:40senior stakeholders. You've got to
47:41credentialize yourself. You've got to
47:43establish your your authority really
47:45early on. I think those are really
47:47important things. Um but at the same
47:50time you have to bring something
47:52different and new to the party because
47:53as I said organizations these days they
47:55they can do their own OD thanks very
47:57much you know and so bringing fresh
48:00perspectives bringing innovative
48:02processes to the party as well as
48:05establishing the fact that you're
48:07grounded commercially aware and
48:10experienced is really important. So Ty,
48:13you talked about like emotions and one
48:16of the things we talked about is like a
48:17leadership as well and um and I think
48:20one of the videos I watch you talked
48:21about, you know, sort of things like
48:23passion and rage in organizations and
48:27the fact that things like passion
48:28actually really positive for
48:29organizations because from passion comes
48:32innovation and even things like rage
48:35comes I think you talk about connection
48:37and and things like that. So healthy
48:38boundaries and whatnot too. So um the
48:41modern manager has many challenges ahead
48:42of them, don't they? How can they sort
48:45of work more comfortably with their
48:47emotions and sort of tap into things
48:48like passion and to encourage that in
48:50their people um and in in healthy ways?
48:54>> I I I wish I could give you a formula,
48:56you know, if you like drink this snake
48:58all over, you'll be able to tap into
49:00your own and your team's passions and
49:02rage. Um I I don't know that I can do
49:06that. Um let me sit with your question
49:08for a minute. So organizations
49:12are not supportive of emotion generally
49:15right they tend to you know the purpose
49:18of a body and a heart is just to you
49:20know purpose of the body is to carry the
49:21brain around from A to B all of those
49:23sorts of old cliches um and yet um
49:27emotions are always the thing that are
49:29bubbling below the surface. So I think
49:33as practitioners we have to develop the
49:35ability to name emotions that aren't
49:38even obvious behaviorally sometimes and
49:42to be able to work with those emotions
49:44sometimes directly sometimes indirectly.
49:46That's why a mix of you know one-to-one
49:48coaching work for example is really
49:50effective as well as team coaching as
49:52well as putting both of those
49:54interventions in the bigger context of
49:55an organizational change um initiative.
49:58So working at multiple levels where
50:01emotions can be dealt with and named
50:02easily and where we can get into
50:05different depths of emotion through
50:07different kinds of relationships and
50:09structures and OD interventions. I think
50:11all of that's kind of part of um the
50:15recipe. Um but I think um you know the
50:19rage and passion work that you've you've
50:21referenced which I started some time ago
50:24with a a dear friend and colleague of
50:25mine Barbara Morgan who's a um a gestalt
50:28psychotherapist originally in our family
50:30systems constellator. We dance together
50:33sometimes in in in some of our work
50:36because I locate my work kind of on the
50:39boundary of personal and organizational
50:41narratives. I'm really deeply interested
50:43in the personal and professional change
50:45of leaders and managers in the context
50:48of organizations. I don't do therapy and
50:51I get really bored by the purely
50:53strategic cognitive stuff. I really love
50:56that balance of people and process and
50:59strategy kind of coming together. So,
51:01Barbara and I, we dance together in
51:03these kinds of areas. And um the rage
51:06and passion workshop was a and and the
51:08the video that we've done about it which
51:10you referenced earlier I think Danny
51:12that's a very particular and perhaps
51:14slightly extreme slant on what you're
51:17talking about for me if I can get teams
51:20to name emotions without acting out
51:25those emotions that's really helpful.
51:28You know, a lot of conflict arises
51:29either because of poorly expressed and
51:31uncontained emotion if you just splash
51:34it all over the place or where emotion
51:36is denied.
51:38So finding ways where emotion and
51:41feelings can be named, they can be
51:43contained, they can be held, they can be
51:45articulated
51:46without attacking. Um that's a really
51:49central skill in more and more OD work I
51:52think these days in in team development
51:53work anyway.
51:54>> Yeah. So just shifting gears slightly.
51:56So, what do you enjoy most about the
51:58work that you do?
51:59>> What I enjoy most, what I love most is
52:02designing creative interventions,
52:03creative interventions that bring people
52:07together and help them think of things
52:09they've never thought of before and take
52:11action they never dreamed is possible.
52:14um creative interventions and and a kind
52:17of example of what what I mean by that
52:19actually not just the creative
52:21interventions but it was postcoid and a
52:23really senior team in one of our client
52:25organizations said we haven't met in
52:27person ties a director team for the last
52:30three years this is our first in-person
52:33offsite it's been a tough time we need
52:36belly laughs that was her expression we
52:39need belly laughs well John and I went
52:41off and we spent a week thinking oh my
52:42goodness you know like we're
52:44We're not comedians. We got a good sense
52:46of humor. Oh, can we give them belly
52:48laughs? And we thought about it and we
52:49tried and we ended up having to go back
52:51to the client and say, "I'm really
52:53sorry, but um can't guarantee that." But
52:57but um what we can offer is a space
53:01where people are real with one another
53:04and where belly laughs could happen and
53:07where tears could happen and where real
53:09connection could happen. Would you buy
53:11that? She said yes straight away. And
53:14then that was the brief. So okay, how do
53:17we allow a space for um tears and
53:20connection and um all the rest of it and
53:25she said over to you. We trust you. Go
53:27for it. So what we designed was um a
53:29session called five experiments that
53:31could change your world. And we designed
53:34a series of kind of apparently different
53:37and diverse experiments
53:41in connection and in contact and in
53:43relating. And within the first 10
53:45minutes of the session, the first
53:46experiment was a simple kind of gestalt
53:48thing, which is where we said, so you
53:49haven't really connected in over 3
53:51years. Some of you have never connected
53:53in person before because you were
53:54recruited during COVID. So we want you
53:57to do this. We just invite you now to
53:58stand up and in a moment walk around and
54:03silently just make eye contact with your
54:06colleagues, but don't do a quick kind of
54:09eye spin and run away. Pause, breathe,
54:13stay connected and try to see the beauty
54:16in the other and allow your beauty to be
54:19seen. So they all looked at me and they
54:22were terrified.
54:24And within minutes of them doing this
54:26very first exercise, you know, in the
54:28first 20 minutes or so of the workshop,
54:29I mean, half of them were in tears
54:30already, but they were tears of relief
54:32and connection. And then, you know, we
54:34up the ante. We got them to do a bit of
54:36painting later on by doing um some um
54:39Chinese brush stroke kind of work and
54:41making making their mark. What does your
54:44physical mark say about the mark you
54:45want to make in the organization? They
54:47loved it. So, you know, these are spaces
54:50where we try to bring people together as
54:53as I said around a series of creative
54:55interventions that open hearts and
54:57minds, help them think of things and
54:59take action they've never done before.
55:01Um, and that's what I most enjoy about
55:03the role is the design and the
55:07enablement
55:08um the and the enlivening of those sorts
55:10of spaces.
55:11>> And I just want to pick up you said we
55:13said in the intro that you use film in
55:15some of your work. Can you just we can't
55:17we can't go away without knowing what
55:18that looks like.
55:19>> About nine or 10 years ago now, I got to
55:22a point where I was bored with my
55:23practice. I mean, I love what I do, but
55:26you get to a place of sort of effortless
55:28competence after a while, and I really
55:31feel uncomfortable with that. So, I
55:33promised myself that I would take three
55:35one- month sbaticals away from client
55:37delivery. and the the first of the and
55:39and I had to find something that would
55:42be creative, something that I had never
55:44done before and something that had no
55:47direct connection to my business. So, it
55:50was a kind of reimagining of my my
55:52offer. And by chance, a friend that I
55:56was telling this to who's in uh is in
55:59the US, she said, "Oh, you need to come
56:01to the US and um go to Sedona Arts
56:04College. They'll do fun things there."
56:06I'd never heard of it, but I looked them
56:08up online and lo and behold, they had a
56:104-w week intensive documentary
56:13filmmaking program and it coincided with
56:16the first four weeks that I had no
56:18client delivery work. So, I got on a
56:19plane, I went to Sedona and I learned
56:21the dark arts of documentary film
56:23making. Um, and it it has become um
56:27central to our practice. It's moved away
56:30from being a side hustle and a kind of
56:32interest because I never wanted to be a
56:34um you know the next Steven Spielberg
56:36kind of film director. It's become
56:38central to our practice and we use it in
56:40a number of different ways. Firstly by
56:43doing up close and personal we call them
56:45soul biographies after the work of Nick
56:47Ascu. We do up close and personal um
56:50soul biographies of key people key
56:53leaders and managers in organizations.
56:55We just sit them down. Dark space camera
56:57is, you know, head and shoulders only.
57:00And those conversations are emergent
57:02dialogic conversations. They start with
57:05a kind of zen-like coan question. So,
57:09one of my favorites is so um Danny,
57:13what's your uniqueness? And that kind of
57:15question sends the person inside their
57:18heads. And the camera of course is a
57:21completely non-judging reference point.
57:24and it captures micro expressions and
57:26the dance of thought and you can see
57:28things happening in the client's face
57:30and the conversation takes off from
57:32there and they they end up being very
57:33emotional biographies about things that
57:36are fundamentally important to people.
57:38So that's one version of it. And you
57:41know, we've also run two-day team
57:44development workshops where we've
57:46designed a a process where from the
57:48afternoon of day one, we can take
57:50individual team members out, put them
57:53into a different room with a filmmaker
57:55and a camera uh and ask them a question
57:58about their uniqueness in their job. You
58:00know, what's what what's your leadership
58:02look like in this team right now? So,
58:04they have those conversations. We edit
58:06overnight and the next morning we play
58:09the backtoback confessions of the team
58:12members if you like to one another and
58:16that gives them a real basis for seeing
58:18something they've never seen about their
58:20colleagues before and for looking at how
58:22collective leadership could really be
58:24inspired in their neck of the woods. Um
58:28we've developed virtual applications for
58:30film making through uh what's called a
58:32standpoints board where we go into an
58:34organization. We um find a subject that
58:38is strategically important and we talk
58:40to eight or 10 very senior people from
58:43different parts of the organization and
58:44one or two external experts and we use
58:48it to kind of break up what they're
58:50saying on a on a board like a mural
58:52board or a mirror board where teams can
58:55interrogate the views the standpoints of
58:58senior people in the process of making
59:01up their own opinion about strategic
59:03direction or about strategy
59:04implementation.
59:06So, you know, we use film really uh I
59:08think kind of imaginatively but very
59:10practically in the OD work that we do.
59:12>> Wow. That's real breakthrough work,
59:14isn't it?
59:15>> Brilliant.
59:16>> Yeah, it's exciting work and and you
59:18know, sometimes it's not cheap work, but
59:20it's invaluable work. The clients who
59:22buy this kind of uh work, I think they
59:25get a lot out of it.
59:27>> Obviously, we'd highly recommend your
59:28book. Are there any other books or
59:30podcasts or resources you'd recommend
59:32that people kind of follow up that
59:35>> real confession? Well, I'm on your
59:37podcast and I'm honestly really
59:38privileged to be there. I'm not a
59:40podcast lover. I don't listen to
59:41podcasts cuz I I don't um I don't take
59:44in information that way, but I'm a
59:46reader and I guess books that I love
59:50that have inspired my practice are not
59:52always OD books. They're not always
59:54business books. Um, there's an amazing
59:57children's story book called The
59:59Mountain That Loved the Bird, and I
1:00:01recommend that to loads of clients.
1:00:02That's a beautiful book. The Velvetine
1:00:05Rabbit, um, which is another children's
1:00:08book, is stunningly awesome. It's about
1:00:12what love really means in the nursery,
1:00:15um, slashboardroom.
1:00:17Um there's a great book called The Atlas
1:00:21of Experience, which um is a I love
1:00:25mapping, right? A constellation, as I
1:00:27said, is a living map. And I'm really
1:00:28interested in in mapping. It's not just
1:00:30a way of getting from A to B. But this
1:00:33book called the Atlas of Experience is
1:00:35um a kind of cgraphy of different kinds
1:00:38of human experiences expressed in
1:00:41topographic form. That's a really
1:00:43fascinating book. Um things that are
1:00:46moving more in the direction of my
1:00:49practice is the present moment of course
1:00:52by Daniel Stern which I love. Um the the
1:00:55practice of presence is fundamental I
1:00:58think to the kind of work that that we
1:01:00do and that we advocate. Um ah Almas the
1:01:04founder of the Ridwan School. I've been
1:01:06a student of the Ridwan School for about
1:01:0718 years. Um and Almas's work is
1:01:10exceptional. So he's got a book called
1:01:12The Unfolding. Now you'll see a theme
1:01:16here. OD books about leadership. One of
1:01:19my favorites is a bit old now and
1:01:20probably about 15 20 years old, but it's
1:01:22by um a guy called Ronald Hyitz called
1:01:26Leadership Without Easy Answers. Um
1:01:29that's a fantastic book and a bit more
1:01:33therapeutic but oriented towards
1:01:34constellations. One of my teachers who
1:01:37sadly um passed away some years ago is a
1:01:39guy called Hunter Bowmont. And Hunter
1:01:42wrote a book called towards a spiritual
1:01:44psychotherapy.
1:01:46And the subtitle is what gets me soul as
1:01:49a dimension of experience. And you know
1:01:51soul is one of those words that like
1:01:54love it's not very organizationally
1:01:56compatible.
1:01:57But I I kind of believe in using
1:01:59language like that, you know, depth
1:02:01charge language in organizations um
1:02:03sometimes because uh the language of OD,
1:02:08the language of strategy is often too
1:02:12restrictive and too cold for the kinds
1:02:15of changes that organizations are asking
1:02:17of from their people. So, you know, I
1:02:20love using words like soul and love in
1:02:22organizations. And I remember some years
1:02:24ago I was coaching a chief executive and
1:02:27he said, "I don't know why we can't
1:02:29develop a strategy for European
1:02:31expansion in our market and I I I knew
1:02:34that he was a 50% shareholder with a
1:02:36Chinese founder of his business and I
1:02:40said um have you have you asked your
1:02:42founder have you asked your co-irector
1:02:45for his blessing on your strategy?" Like
1:02:47blessing, what kind of a word is that to
1:02:49use with the chief executive? He went
1:02:52away the following week to China, had a
1:02:54conversation, and when I saw him a month
1:02:56later, he said, "I used exactly that
1:02:58word because in his culture, he really
1:03:00understood it, and he came back and
1:03:01things were freed up." So, you know, I
1:03:04refer back to Hunter's book where um
1:03:08soul as a dimension of experience is a
1:03:10really important and undervalued part of
1:03:14uh working in the ways that certainly
1:03:16John and I work in Mus.
1:03:17>> Wow, that's a really fantastic reading
1:03:19list. That's me and Dan. Denny's reading
1:03:21done to the end of the year. Thank you.
1:03:24>> Sorry. Sorry. There no podcasts I can
1:03:25recommend.
1:03:26>> No, not at all. We We love a good book
1:03:28reference actually and audience do as
1:03:30well. So, um, last question from us. One
1:03:32of the original missions of the podcast
1:03:34is to inspire the next generation of OD
1:03:36practitioners coming through. What
1:03:38advice would you give someone who's
1:03:39either just at the very beginning or,
1:03:42you know, they're just looking in going,
1:03:43there has to be another way to sort of
1:03:45lead change or create culture
1:03:46transformation in the organization.
1:03:48>> I hate giving advice. Um, but all right,
1:03:51let me let me rise to your question.
1:03:53What advice would I give? Cherish your
1:03:56mistakes. Like when you're starting out
1:03:58in this field, you are going to make
1:04:00mistakes. I mean, I have made some
1:04:01howlers, absolutely dreadful mistakes,
1:04:05and I've fallen onto my sword, kissed
1:04:09the carpet, walked out with egg on my
1:04:12face, and I thought, "Oh god, what did I
1:04:14do there?" You know? Um, but the
1:04:16learning that you get if you cherish
1:04:18your mistakes is absolutely invaluable
1:04:21and you know, learn from them. I've
1:04:23never made the same mistakes twice. I
1:04:26think I'm just checking. I think that's
1:04:27probably true. But, uh, yeah, cherish
1:04:30your mistakes.
1:04:32>> That is really rich advice. And after
1:04:34hundred and god knows how many episodes,
1:04:35we've never had that advice, but it's so
1:04:37important, isn't it? It's it's just so
1:04:39rich.
1:04:40>> Get rid of the inner critic. You know,
1:04:42the inner critic is what holds us back
1:04:43all of the time. And if you develop a
1:04:45philosophy of just cherishing your
1:04:47mistakes and learning from them and
1:04:49being kind to yourself as you reflect on
1:04:51what you could have done better, I think
1:04:52that's transformational of anyone's
1:04:54practice.
1:04:55>> Wonderful. Well, what an enlightening,
1:04:57fabulous conversation to to finish our
1:04:59week. Anyway, Terry, want to say a huge
1:05:01thank you. It's been absolutely
1:05:03brilliant. Um Danny, what are you taking
1:05:04away from today's conversation?
1:05:06>> It's been a delight so much. I'm going
1:05:07to be nagging you to get the edit done
1:05:09really quickly because I want to listen
1:05:10back.
1:05:11>> [laughter]
1:05:12>> Um, I think I've just really enjoyed all
1:05:14of it. I love the the kind of
1:05:15exploration of culture and
1:05:17organizational trauma. I love the way
1:05:19you articulated about the importance of
1:05:20different dialogic spaces. Um, and the
1:05:23the idea of symptom bears. I I think
1:05:25Garren and I are thinking about the same
1:05:26client situation. Spark.
1:05:28>> Good. Well, I wasn't sure where you were
1:05:29coming from next. I used to love it when
1:05:31he said, "Oh, should we ask question
1:05:32eight or question 17 now?" [laughter]
1:05:35>> Oh my goodness.
1:05:35>> It's like an exam from hell.
1:05:38>> It's worse than my PhD viviveror.
1:05:41>> [laughter]
1:05:43>> I hope it sounded reasonably articulate.
1:05:45I know I'm going to listen to this and
1:05:47think, "Oh I wish I'd have said X
1:05:48and Y, but hope it was okay enough."
1:05:51>> Oh, no, definitely. Well, I think we had
1:05:52uh Dr. Louise Van Rein, what was it that
1:05:55she said after hers and God, what was
1:05:57it? A vulnerability hangover she said
1:05:59that she had. Absolutely. And then on
1:06:01the second listen, then she started to
1:06:03love it. So, and since then, it's been
1:06:04transformational. Um, I just couple of
1:06:06things I I echo what Danny said, but I
1:06:08think some might say what I really
1:06:11really liked was how love comes in
1:06:13different flavors and manifests itself
1:06:15as in like it shows itself in respect
1:06:18and so it doesn't have to be something
1:06:20that creates gives allergic reaction to
1:06:21people. It manifests itself and I just
1:06:24think just the you know the system site
1:06:26all those things just so rich. So
1:06:27anybody watching this we really reckon
1:06:29watching it again and really leveraging
1:06:31um Tai's brilliant insights. Um T, if
1:06:33people want to follow your work, if they
1:06:34want to obviously read your brilliant
1:06:36book, which we have, and the link to
1:06:37that will be in the show notes, what's
1:06:39the best place for people to to follow
1:06:40your work?
1:06:41>> Well, you can um follow me on LinkedIn,
1:06:43of course, and uh you can hit our um
1:06:47organizational website, www.mmeas.co.uk
1:06:52and uh I guess LinkedIn and our website
1:06:55should enable you to track me down and
1:06:57stalk me if you want.
1:06:59>> Amazing. So, all of Tai's links will be
1:07:01in the show notes with this episode,
1:07:02whether you listen to this on audio or
1:07:04on video. Um, but we want to say a huge
1:07:06thank you, Ty. If you are watching this
1:07:08video and you think you know someone
1:07:10who's stuck or in an organization that
1:07:12might have unprocessed trauma or is
1:07:14looking for a cultural transformation,
1:07:16then please do share it. Um, every week
1:07:18we so impressed with the stats of people
1:07:20actually sharing this video with others.
1:07:22Um, the more people that can actually
1:07:23have Tai's book in their hands, the
1:07:25better. It's a really rich source of
1:07:26information. So, Danny and I hardly
1:07:28recommend it. Um, and if you do watch
1:07:30this, please hit the like button and
1:07:31subscribe as well. But most importantly,
1:07:33Ty, thank you so much for making time.
1:07:35We know how busy you are. Thank you for
1:07:36being for so generous with your insights
1:07:38and your experiences. It's been a real
1:07:39joy. So, thank you.
1:07:41>> Real pleasure, Darren Danny. Thanks
1:07:43[music] for having me.
1:07:50[music]
1:07:55Heat. Heat.
1:08:05[music]
1:08:16>> [music]