95% of Books Fail. He Sold $100M Worth.

0:00In our third year, we were the 10th

0:01largest in the country in terms of units

0:03sold. So, we came out of nowhere.

0:05>> How How many units are that?

0:06>> 10 to 12,000 a day.

0:08>> That's going to be in the intro. That's

0:09incredible.

0:10>> Do you have a single account that's

0:12spending at least 100K a day that's

0:14fully cost capped?

0:15>> He has done it. It is just very, very,

0:17very hard.

0:18>> How much are you spending on these

0:19adsets to test? Like what's your testing

0:21budget?

0:21>> If you're going to stand up a new

0:23product, test the packaging, test the

0:25company name. There is nothing wrong

0:27with losing money testing. It's what we

0:29do. 98% of the we run doesn't work.

0:31But to ignore the learnings from that is

0:33a massive mistake. And that's where I

0:35get pissed. One of these ads got 35

0:38clicks over 7 days. What the do I know

0:40about this ad? Nothing. We got over

0:4230,000 submissions our first year. We

0:44paid like seven figures a year in

0:46royalties. A winning ad doesn't lose

0:49more than once in 3 days, twice in

0:51seven. 700 million third year. They're

0:53doing these real numbers. It's just

0:55absolutely insane. I remember I said,

0:57"Who cares if they're doing 350 million?

1:00The numbers are still so massive."

1:05>> Yo yo yo yo yo, we are on with Jason

1:09Koutasi. Needs no intro, but I'll give

1:11you an intro anyways. Legendary

1:13affiliate marketer, now legendary agency

1:16owner. Thanks for hopping on, bro.

1:18>> Yeah, of course. It's uh

1:19>> I think you you forgot the book brand,

1:22>> dude. I'm going to I'm going to get into

1:24the book brand. That was actually my

1:25first question honestly is about the

1:28book brand. Some people know the story

1:29is a crazy crazy lore. You got into kids

1:33books. You got into publishing. You

1:35exited to Scholastic. Honestly, an

1:37insane story and this is coming from a

1:39guy that started on Meta Ads and somehow

1:41ended up in books. So, give us a lowown

1:43on that.

1:45>> Oh man. Um, so first the, you know,

1:49million people ask me, they're like, I

1:51have an idea for a kids book. like

1:52should I go like should I go into this

1:55business? And I'm like I'll give you all

1:56the keys to the kingdom. I will tell you

1:58everything I have, all the vendors, all

2:00the highs, all the lows, but let me just

2:02shortcut you. Do not start a kids book

2:04business. Um, and we'll get to some of

2:07the problems with with that business.

2:09And just like a lot of the lessons that

2:10that I learned um basically the you know

2:15the way that we got into this into this

2:17business is you know we we historically

2:21ran a lot of health and beauty and a lot

2:23of lead genen too. So um even today as

2:25an agency we run stuff that has um

2:28painpoint. I need problem solution. So

2:30nothing aspirational. So I don't do

2:32clothes, watches, jewelry, um cars like

2:35that. Um, and we were getting a ton of

2:43metaf flags like all the time. Accounts

2:45were going down nonstop.

2:49And um, and so we set up a dinner with

2:52the head head of policy for Meta.

2:56And so we fly out, we have dinner with

2:58him. And you know, the the very short

3:01version of the story is like, look, Meta

3:04cares about engagement. We want happy

3:07things. We want puppy dogs, rainbows,

3:09hula hoops, like hearts, whatever. And I

3:14understand what you're doing and I

3:15understand it makes money, but you know,

3:17by pushing on the bruise and leading

3:20with a lot of of pain, you know, that I

3:23mean, it's, you know, problem solution.

3:24Find the bruise and then just push on

3:26it. And at the end of the day, if that

3:29alienates customers from using our

3:31platform, then you don't have anybody to

3:33market to. It was obviously a longer

3:36conversation over dinner. And me and my

3:38right hand at the time, we uh we exit

3:42the dinner. We uh we go to the bar

3:46across the street after we're like back

3:48at Meta's offices, right? So like say

3:50good night, whatever. And we go back uh

3:52to this bar across the street and I'm

3:54like head in hand. I'm like, dude, like,

3:58what are we gonna do? Because the bands

4:00were so bad. It was very different than

4:02it is now. Like, I feel like anything

4:04can run now, which is wild to me. Um,

4:06Meta Policy is like out the door.

4:09>> So, hold on. What do you mean by that?

4:11Because you think you think it'll be

4:13like even less strict at the beginning

4:16or back then?

4:17>> You would. So, you have like 28,200 when

4:20guys are starting on meta. It was wild

4:22west. you could run whatever you wanted

4:25to run, right? Like all of it was just

4:28new. And then as it just sort of grew,

4:32policy got tighter and tighter and meta

4:34got more and more scrutiny, Facebook,

4:36right? More and more scrutiny.

4:39And so you would just get these autobans

4:42and um and then one of the other

4:44problems was the way we ran was like

4:46very horizontal. That was a strategy. I

4:49wish it still worked today, but I think

4:51on one of our biggest days, we ran 250

4:54ad accounts on one offer.

4:56And we were just making campaigns,

4:58creating post IDs, and moving

4:59horizontal. And so, literally me and my

5:01right-hand John at this point, cuz we

5:03were still a super small team.

5:05>> Literally, we would open it up, we split

5:07the accounts, and you're just running

5:09shift tab. You're like, shift tab, shift

5:11tab, just going through all of them, and

5:12we would do hard clips at at uh 9

5:15Pacific, noon Eastern.

5:16>> Wow. Um, it's just sort of that's like

5:18when VSSL traffic just does does the

5:21best. And that's not all we were doing,

5:22but just traffic in general does the

5:24best in the mornings.

5:25>> One of the more interesting stories you

5:26told me was about your Yahoo advertising

5:30days.

5:30>> Yeah.

5:32>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

5:33>> I was like I I was blown away by that.

5:36>> Yeah. That's um Yeah, that's a crazy

5:39story, too. So, um and I'll jump back

5:42into the book business. This is like

5:43just one of my favorite stories about

5:45marketing and just sort of my journey.

5:47So, I appreciate you popping that up.

5:48So, we were So, I started on Yahoo. So,

5:51that's where I started running

5:5210-centent desktop clicks on Yahoo. And

5:55we had figured we I had figured out this

5:58I'm solo dude had figured out a process

6:02for Yahoo. And at the end of the day, I

6:05believe at that point I was probably um

6:09I think I was the best Yahoo media buyer

6:12full stop. And you know, Yahoo would

6:15send us clients and my friends with

6:17agencies who were all on Facebook would

6:18send us client like can you handle the

6:20Yahoo side? And um and I wasn't even

6:23doing Facebook. Yahoo is where I

6:25started. Um and which also is why we're

6:29such a copyforward.

6:32um agency or just framework like I it's

6:35just copy. So it was like 10 headlines,

6:3710 images, three advertorials a day and

6:41so you're just writing writing writing

6:42writing writing and there's no AI,

6:44right? So a lot of the the kids maybe

6:46not today but tomorrow are going to be

6:48like you know all the up andcoming

6:49affiliates like you had to like

6:50literally sit down and write this like

6:53yeah we we we did we had to build the

6:56web page anyway.

6:58So, we were running this this uh um at

7:03this point we had hired a couple guys

7:05and one of the guys got this ad up and

7:08it was a rocks glass on a black

7:11background with some whiskey in it. Uh

7:14and the headline was how diabetics are

7:18having more sex. And that was getting to

7:20the number one spot on Yahoo. It was

7:24literally you go to yahoo.com and that

7:26was the first placement. So like all

7:28these moms would just see the first

7:31placement which was yours and like over

7:33what period of time was this a few

7:35months?

7:36>> No, no, no. So I'll go through this is a

7:37three-day story by the way. So this ad

7:41goes up and it is crushing. We see this

7:44spike in traffic. Budgets are burning.

7:46We're putting more stuff in. And I was

7:47like, we never ran ED as a vertical

7:50mostly because um erectile dysfunction

7:54is one of those like verticals that just

7:56get gets flagged. So like this is the

7:58only time ever we've ever run it. And so

8:02I was like, I need a link. So like I

8:04called a bunch of guys I knew with

8:05affiliate networks and I was like, get

8:06me an ED link. We got one. We dropped it

8:08in and we ran it and we made like 30,000

8:11bucks and a couple hours profit and then

8:14the ad went down. Now what we realized

8:17about the Yahoo Gemini algorithm at the

8:20time is they would pick an ad and it

8:22like it was a very immature algo. So if

8:25you have 10 ads

8:27um if you have 10 ads like your ad just

8:30dies over like 3 days. It's kind of the

8:32way that like Tik Tok and Instagram are.

8:34So like you just don't stay at the top

8:36forever. Like it burns out really quick.

8:39And what we would also do is we would

8:41bulk upload and bank campaigns. So when

8:44we would make a campaign, we would make

8:47three of them because when that ad died,

8:49I would literally just turn it off and I

8:51would turn the next one on.

8:52>> What year was this?

8:54>> Uh 20

8:572015,

8:592016, something like that. Something

9:01like that. And um so anyway, so that ad

9:05goes down, made like 30 grand. I was

9:07like, "All right, let's go again

9:08tomorrow morning." So we do. And so the

9:10first day was a Thursday, second day was

9:12a Friday. Ad goes up, we make like

9:14another 30 or 50 grand, I can't

9:16remember. The numbers were massive. We

9:18knew it would go down really quick. And

9:19then it goes down. Saturday rolls

9:22around, we do it again, right? Cuz we

9:24had bank of three. Ad takes off,

9:26whatever. And I'm sitting at the

9:28computer working. I was just this

9:29workaholic and my phone rings and it

9:32says Yahoo. And I'm like, like whatever.

9:34I generally don't answer uh phone calls

9:37when I don't know somebody, but I

9:38answered this one. And so I was like,

9:40"Hey, this is Jason." And I can't

9:42remember the guy's name. It was like

9:43Mike or something like that. I don't

9:45remember. And he goes, "Hey Jason, this

9:47is uh Mike calling from Yahoo." And I

9:49was like, "Hey, Mike. Thanks for

9:50calling. Um, you know, we already have a

9:52rep. Uh, we spend a lot with you guys."

9:54And no, that's not why I'm calling. And

9:57I was like, "Oh." He goes, "Yeah, so let

9:59me tell you how my morning went." So I

10:02woke up this morning with a phone call

10:04from Marissa Mayor, who was the CEO at

10:06the time. and she goes, "What is this uh

10:10Viagra diabetic ad doing at the top of

10:14Yahoo for three days in a row?" And he

10:17didn't know about it. And he's like,

10:20"Oh, well, you know, whatever. I I

10:22didn't know about it." And she goes,

10:24"Huh?" She goes, "Do you know who Jason

10:25is?" And he goes, "No." She goes, "You

10:28don't know who Jason is?" And he goes,

10:29"No." And she goes, "He's been our

10:32largest advertiser on platform for two

10:34years in a row. And you don't know who

10:35the this guy is? get him on the phone

10:38now and get this to stop. And I was

10:41like, "Oh, well, let me walk you through

10:43what happened, how it works, how we like

10:46I knew more about their algo than he

10:48did." And so I started explaining and

10:49he's like, "Look, man, at the end of the

10:51day, I don't really care. I just know

10:53that you can't run Viagra at the top of

10:56our uh homepage anymore." And I was

10:59like, "Okay." And then I hung up and

11:01it's become one of my favorite stories.

11:02Um, he was so mad. He was so mad. He

11:06must have gotten his ass just beat that

11:08morning by her. Um, but anyway, so then

11:12back to the so back to the bookers, we

11:13go to the bar and so he was talking

11:16about all this like rainbows and hula

11:18hoops and all these happy things. So

11:21John and I are sitting there, we're

11:22like, what is the happiest thing we ever

11:24kids books? Let's make a kids book. So

11:26we did. So we made this kids book. It

11:29was called From A to Z a Life of Glee.

11:31Side note, I read it to I got two young

11:33kids. I read it for the first time in

11:35years to my daughter who was like 8

11:38months old at the time to her and the

11:40book kind of sucks. It's it's an okay

11:43book. It's an alphabet book. Everybody's

11:44got a different name and whatever. So,

11:47we took this book, we put it up on Meta

11:49on Facebook and I had bought I think it

11:53was about 4,500 copies and we sold

11:55through all the inventory in 11 days and

11:57with allocated overhead we lost seven

11:59grand for me. I was like, we just broke

12:01even. Like, let's double down on this

12:03thing.

12:04>> So, on the timeline, so 2015, you're a

12:07Yahoo doing offers

12:09>> and then the book came when?

12:11>> 2017. We launched in November of 2017.

12:14At this point, we'd already jumped on to

12:16onto Facebook. So, you know, we had

12:19started learning Facebook because Yahoo

12:21only has so much traffic. So, like the

12:24audience is only so big and frankly it's

12:27shrinking, right? like people aren't

12:28getting yahoo.com emails. Um, you know,

12:31they're just not they're just not going

12:33there. It's it's great for older demos,

12:34but it's Anyway, so we had already

12:37learned and figured out uh, you know,

12:39Facebook and we're doing some serious

12:41numbers on on Facebook at the time. And

12:44so we, you know, we had this book and I

12:47was like, well, what do we like, what do

12:49we do from here? And so one of the

12:52things that's fascinating about the book

12:54business is I was like, "Oh, well, let's

12:55just build this like API through a

12:58distributor where we can drop ship

12:59thirdparty books." And I could at that

13:02point I could sell a book from Oprah,

13:04Dr. Seuss,

13:06uh Clive Kustler, like pick a pick a ver

13:09you could drop ship all of it. This is

13:11crazy about books. The average margin

13:14for books is 40 points. And you're like,

13:16hm, 40 points. Like that's pretty nice

13:18actually, right? like on a on a

13:21distributor. I like 40 points on most

13:22businesses unless that book is $10. So I

13:26make four bucks and so to sell a bundle

13:29of books or to email it like you just

13:32don't make any money

13:34anyway. So it's on a margin percentage

13:37it's it's great business, but on

13:39absolute metrics it's terrible. It's

13:41like the opposite of supplements and

13:42jewelry, right? Or or you know the guys

13:46from True Classic or something like

13:47that, right? you just have a a big it's

13:49really hard to push the receipt out.

13:51>> You still you still scaled and

13:52ultimately you found this drop ship

13:55tactic to fund all that fast growth as

13:57well.

13:58>> No, uh kind of so we

14:03so I'll tell you what we did and then

14:04where we ended up. And so this was one

14:06of the big lessons in terms of testing

14:08and sort of what really separated us and

14:10set us apart uh from the other

14:12publishers.

14:14Um, so first that we realized that model

14:19didn't work to drop ship these other

14:20books. There's no margin. So I know that

14:22people buy systems. So we made a

14:24workbook like first grade reading and

14:26writing system. And it was the the

14:30quality of the content was excellent.

14:33Excellent. AOVs had moved up to 120

14:36bucks or something like that. But the

14:39problem we realized was that by

14:41introducing education at a first grade

14:44reading level, you just introduce

14:46consideration into a vertical that just

14:48doesn't need consideration. If I suggest

14:51a book to you guys around whatever, and

14:53you're into that thing, a business book,

14:54I was like, "Oh, there's this business

14:56book by John Smith called XYZ. You

14:58should buy it." You probably just go

14:59there, it's $10. You're like, "I'm going

15:00to buy it. If I read it, I read it. I

15:02don't. I don't." There's no

15:03consideration around efficacy. Well, you

15:06have that in workbooks now. And not only

15:09that, but a lot of our traffic was

15:11grandma traffic. So that's a big

15:13misconception. People are like, "You

15:15sold the moms." I was like, "I didn't

15:16sell the moms. I sold the grandmas." And

15:18the reason you sell the grandmas is they

15:20have more time, more money, and multiple

15:22grandkids.

15:24And so that was obvious in hindsight. It

15:26just kind of wasn't strategy, but like

15:28grandmas just spend more time on meta.

15:31And um and so anyway, like if you have a

15:34first grade reader, Timmy, so Timmy's a

15:37first grade reader, but like maybe is

15:39Timmy actually a second grade reader or

15:42is Timmy a little dumb and Timmy's

15:45behind? Well, the grandma doesn't know

15:46and so on and so forth. So you just

15:48introduced consideration into a product

15:50line or a vertical that is just a click

15:54buy that doesn't have it. So what we

15:56ended up doing was we started making

15:58more books and the next series that we

16:00went into was Christian books. And the

16:03reason is is we know the conservative

16:05Republican audience buys feverishly. If

16:08you've ever seen Fox News Yeah.

16:10>> by the way like our we have an agency

16:13that works with a lot of conservative

16:15media businesses as their post-prouction

16:18>> and I think they're like by far the

16:19easiest and most profitable media

16:21businesses to start in the market. It's

16:23amazing. like you never see that kind of

16:25behavior on the other side, but for

16:27whatever reason, conservatives just buy

16:29anything they see from people they trust

16:31online. It's like on another level.

16:33>> So when it when it comes to books, are a

16:35lot of them a lot of these sales

16:36happening online? Like it sounds like

16:38you're saying margins on DTOC is just

16:41kind of tough after shipping or like

16:43people buying them at like Barnes &

16:44Noble like back then or today? So the so

16:49when we went through the sales process

16:51we learned a lot about um the publishing

16:54business and one of the statistics uh

16:57broadly speaking that and it varies by

16:59publisher but broadly speaking 80% of

17:02all books are sold on Amazon and so we

17:05looked at Target and Costco and all of

17:07these and there were some gaps some real

17:10struggles in that business. Um,

17:14uh, one, we wouldn't put the price on

17:16the books. They're like, "We're not

17:18going to take a book without a price." I

17:19was like, "Well, I price test." So, what

17:22do you want me to do?

17:24>> It's very old school thinking.

17:25Basically,

17:26>> it's a very very old business. And so,

17:29in our third year, we were the 10th

17:31largest in the country in terms of units

17:33sold. So, we came out of nowhere.

17:35>> How How many units are that?

17:37>> Uh, 10 to 12,000 a day.

17:39>> That That's the clip that's going in the

17:41intro. It's incredible.

17:43>> Um, and what happened was is is in most

17:47industries and particularly in the

17:49publishing industry, if you're in the

17:51publishing game, you go work for Penguin

17:53Random House and then you go to

17:54Scholastic and then you go to McMillan

17:56and then maybe you go back to Penguin

17:57and right but like you're you're just in

17:59that ecosystem.

18:01Nobody knew who we were and so we I

18:05started getting these inbounds from the

18:06seauite of these large publishers. It

18:08was like who are you? because we were

18:11reporting our sales to to NPD Neielson

18:14publisher data which is now called

18:16Sirana. Um so like those were our

18:19orders.

18:20>> So so timeline wise 2015 Yahoo now 2017

18:24books what year is this?

18:26>> This is in 2019 uh so I 2018 was our

18:31first full year 2019 second 2020 was the

18:34year that we were the the 10th. I mean D

18:37TOC co I mean come on kids books like

18:41come on I mean I was like what are we

18:43going to name the plane we were printing

18:46um and then iOS 14 came out

18:50>> and that was like a light switch um very

18:53similar to what we're seeing in iOS 26

18:55today which is just brutal.

18:58>> Are you talking about Andromeda?

19:00>> Not Andromeda specifically the updates

19:02that have happened in 26. um talking

19:04about the which are ironically to combat

19:07the iOS 26

19:10um uh Apple update

19:12>> and it's just been super super rocky. So

19:15anyway, these these publishers are

19:16calling us up and they're like, "Who are

19:17you? Like we've never heard of you?

19:19Where did you come from?" And so like

19:21one of my uh favorite stories about this

19:23business, I I won't say who the

19:25publisher was. Um massive publicly

19:27traded publisher. I'm on with the

19:29seauite

19:31and I spent 45 minutes and I basically

19:34walked them through what we were doing

19:36and how we were doing it. And the CEO is

19:38like really really engaged, like really

19:40engaged.

19:42And we get to the end and he goes, "Does

19:44anybody have any questions?" And nobody

19:47has any questions. I was probably

19:49speaking Chinese to them, frankly. So he

19:51kicks to the CMO, I can't remember her

19:53name, and he goes, "Susie, do you have

19:56any questions for Jason?" And she goes,

19:58"Uh, yeah. Are you guys doing any

20:01social?" And I'm like, "Yeah, basically

20:05we're only doing social." And she's

20:08like, "Is it paid or organic?" And I was

20:10like, "Did you hear a thing I said the

20:12last 45 minutes? I just walked through

20:14our whole strategy and how we're doing

20:15this thing." And she's like, "Well, I

20:17just didn't know." Like, it's just they

20:19have no clue. It's

20:21>> That is crazy. Zay, are you hearing

20:23this, Z?

20:24>> Yeah, dude. It's wild. I feel like the

20:25the business is just so old school that

20:28like you were coming in and doing this

20:30crazy stuff with Meta um and like they

20:33had such such trouble understanding it.

20:35What was the like impetus where you just

20:37like okay the margins are kind of tough

20:39where you know you're cuz I think back

20:41then like you could get a CAC low enough

20:42that like if you're making like a few

20:44dollars per each book like maybe it

20:45works and then uh Facebook got more

20:47expensive. Was there a point where you

20:49were like, "Okay, I'm ready to exit this

20:51business." And that's when led me to

20:52have a conversation with Scholastic.

20:55>> Um, it was there was, this was in May of

20:59April or May, I think it was May. May of

21:012025. In my adult life, I've cried four

21:04times. And in May, I couldn't take the

21:09pressure anymore. My wife said something

21:11to me and I broke down in tears and laid

21:13on the the floor. And we were dating at

21:15the time. And I was like, "Get the out

21:16of my house." like she didn't take a

21:19shot of me, but she like took an

21:20indirect like this business is so hard.

21:22I don't ever see it scaling and I had

21:25put blood, sweat, and tears and years

21:27into this thing. And um and I was like,

21:31I'm done. Like, I'm finished. So, and

21:35there's obviously more to the journey

21:37and other things that we did. And I went

21:39down the list of the top 10 publishers

21:41and I was like, "Make me an offer for

21:43more than a dollar." And they're like,

21:45"A dollar?" I was like, "Don't offer me

21:46a dollar, but this business is getting

21:49sold."

21:51And um you know, and in hindsight, I I

21:54think this is a lesson for a lot of

21:55people that are listening. In hindsight,

21:59I should have gotten out of that

22:00business earlier. It was too hard. And I

22:04came from this this

22:06mindset that just give me hard and I

22:09will fix it and I'm never going to give

22:11up. at my low point when we were trying

22:13to scale and get it going. So, we were

22:15profitable at the front, but then we hit

22:16some and like we were trying to figure

22:18stuff out. I was 1.26 million in the

22:21hole. Um, and we had shut down the

22:25agency. Uh, basically rolled it into the

22:28I burned the ships. So, the agency

22:30wasn't thrown off cash. I'd moved

22:31everybody over and my dad's like, "You

22:33got to you get rid of this. This doesn't

22:35make any money." My dad's a serial

22:36entrepreneur, too. And I was like, "I'll

22:38I'll burn this thing into the ground

22:39before I give up." I think like normal

22:42like for those listening founders might

22:44understand this or they haven't

22:46encountered this moment yet where of

22:47extreme stress of just extreme extreme

22:50stress was it your family your

22:52girlfriend your dad that kind of made

22:54you wake up to it or was it like did you

22:56know you also had to get out of it would

22:58you have known if it wasn't for them

23:00>> yeah so I so that's a great question I

23:03haven't had that one before I the answer

23:06is maybe but probably not I probably

23:10would I probably would have kept going.

23:12And I think what my my now wife did was

23:14she held up a mirror.

23:17And

23:18and I I just think that like there are

23:20these people that's like don't be a

23:22Like don't give up, keep going.

23:25But sometimes you have to make a

23:27decision that

23:29um is the right is the right decision. I

23:32mean, if I look at what we're doing

23:33today on the agency side, how, you know,

23:35how profitable we are now, doing things

23:38that we love without the amount of

23:40pressure and still doing excellent work

23:42for our clients compared to the stress

23:44of the book business, it is night and

23:47day. And I think that it's important

23:50that sometimes

23:52if you have a business, you have to

23:54figure out where the line in the sand is

23:57because there is a line in the sand

23:58because I don't know, look, at that

24:00point, I wasn't married. I didn't have

24:02kids. There's no mortgage. There's no

24:03toys or private schools or whatever,

24:06right? And so I could commit that type

24:09of that type of cash and time. But it

24:12was I knew for a long time it was a bad

24:14business. And so the the takeaways that

24:16I learned is when you go into a

24:18business, don't go don't pick a product

24:20that has a fixed perceived value. I

24:22cannot charge $100 for a book. It's

24:26impossible.

24:28So signed to buy Oprah maybe, right?

24:31Like but I but you can't you can't do

24:33that. The other one is it's inherently a

24:36gifting product. And so one of the

24:38arguments that I would have with my

24:40buddy's wives when I would uh bring up

24:42this example I was like would you do

24:44anything for your kids? They're like

24:45anything. I was like anything. They're

24:46like anything. I'm like okay cool. So

24:49your kids in the street about to get hit

24:50by a bus. You would run in the street,

24:53push the kid out of the way, get hit by

24:54the bus, you die. They're like yep.

24:56Like, cool. Um,

24:59would you buy your kid a $300 pair of

25:01jeans? Well, no. Why? They're the best.

25:04Well, these are design kids. All right,

25:06fine. Uh, what about like suntan lotion?

25:09Like an expensive, you know, my mom used

25:12to buy suntan lotion from like Barney or

25:15Neimann's or some It's not even

25:16waterproof,

25:18you know? And I'm just with the spray on

25:20and it's like, are you going to buy that

25:21for your kids? No, they don't need that.

25:22Well, if you're doing a skin care

25:24routine because you don't want to get

25:26wrinkles, do you start putting it on

25:27your child at 10, so they don't have

25:29wrinkles when they're 30? Well, no. And

25:31so, like, there's this dichotomy around

25:33this, would you really do anything? And

25:35what's the gifting? And so if you took

25:38your kids to the bookstore on Wednesday

25:41after school and you bought them a bunch

25:43of books, you bought them five books,

25:45100 books, doesn't really matter, and

25:46you bought yourself some books, and

25:48Saturday you go back to the mall and you

25:50walk past that bookstore on the way to

25:52the movies and your kid goes, "Dad, I

25:55want that book I see in the window."

25:57You're like, "No, I just bought you five

25:58books yesterday." But if you see a book

26:01in the window that just came out that

26:03you want and you also got some books on

26:04Wednesday, you walk in and you buy them.

26:08>> It's so interesting like the spending

26:09habits. Like it makes sense now why

26:11you're saying like grandmas and

26:12grandparents on Facebook cuz

26:14grandparents are the type to really like

26:16spoil their grandkids, right? Like

26:17parents will be like, "No, they don't

26:18need that. We just bought them a toy

26:20last week." I think you mentioned to me

26:22before it's like they're usually making

26:23these purchases like Christmas or

26:24something like Christmas, birthday,

26:26they're going to buy their kid a book.

26:28But otherwise, they're like, "No, like I

26:29already spend enough money on this kid."

26:31And then the grandparents are ones like

26:32every time they come to visit, like

26:33they're going to come with gifts. Um, so

26:35that makes a lot of sense. I also really

26:36like your point on you can't really

26:38brand books as luxury, right? Like a lot

26:40of these um brands are killing it. Like

26:43look like Ridge Wallet. They can sell

26:45you like a wallet for like 100 bucks.

26:47Maybe they're making it for like 10 20.

26:49I don't know what their margins are, but

26:50they're probably pretty pretty strong

26:51margins. Like 70 80% margins. To your

26:53point, like I can't go even if I write a

26:56really good book, right? and I can't

26:57sell the book for like 60 bucks. Uh like

26:59you're saying like there's just like a

27:01cap almost. Um so that's really

27:02interesting cuz like as Meta gets more

27:04expensive where a lot of these like

27:06luxury brands or these like really high

27:08LTV brands like you got brands like

27:09Grunes where they're like you're going

27:11to come back and you're going to buy and

27:12you're buy and buy. They can make meta

27:14work now because it's getting more

27:15expensive for books unless it's like a

27:17series and you're like putting out which

27:18I think maybe you have done too where

27:20you're like you're putting out a new

27:21book like every 3 months and you're

27:22getting the LTV that way. It see it just

27:24seems really challenging from what from

27:26what you're saying.

27:26>> We released a book a week, a new book a

27:30week. So like constantly new and it went

27:32through a whole process and and

27:34whatever. And

27:35>> did you have a giant product team? Like

27:37who was

27:38>> how are you doing that?

27:38>> So here's what we did. Um and I think

27:41this speaks to anybody that's listening

27:43that has a DTOC business. I bet most of

27:45you aren't doing this and you guys are

27:47dumb. Let me fix this for you.

27:50So what we would do is this is where we

27:53ended up not where we started. So we

27:55moved into publishing by the way. That's

27:56how we grew and we paid a royalty to the

27:58author so that we could get more

27:59content. We ran a lead genen funnel on

28:01it. We got over 30,000 submissions our

28:04first year. There is some garbage out

28:05there by the way. But what we ended up

28:08doing was we would take um and then we

28:10paid like seven figures a year in

28:12royalties. Like the numbers were really

28:14big. And I was like we're doing all this

28:15work. We would take a book, we would do

28:17the cover testing. So a cover has three

28:19pieces that matter. The image, the

28:20title, and the subtitle, which is the

28:22why. And so we would do this and we

28:24built a process for it and so on and so

28:26forth. And then I was like, you know

28:28what, like we can just basically stand

28:31up our own books now and recapture that

28:33margin. That's a lot of margin. And then

28:35we own the IP and it just the

28:37transitions user and whatever. So we

28:38would come up with an idea. We would do

28:41multivariant cover testing on that. And

28:44we knew where we had to be. We knew that

28:46a book had to be under $3 a lead. We

28:48literally just ran Facebook.

28:50>> You were basically like thumbnail

28:51testing, like static image testing, like

28:53about it. Like the covers are basically

28:54that, right?

28:55>> Bingo. And so if a book hit, we would

28:59make two more books. And so we'd have a

29:01threebook series and then we would have

29:03it written and illustrated. And then to

29:05rip a page out of a supplement guys, we

29:07would attach a domain expert as the

29:09ghostriter to that book.

29:10>> Smart.

29:11>> And it was just supplement 101. skin

29:14cream doctor a tap like whatever. And

29:17then when and then we transitioned the

29:19publishing business was if you wanted a

29:21book um you had to pay us to cover test

29:24it against our audience which was

29:26massive. Um you know we had over a

29:28million customers and this is kind of

29:32funny. They're like so you want me to

29:33pay like $500 to cover test this book?

29:35And I was like yeah like it cost us 300

29:37media. We make 200 bucks. Doesn't move

29:39the needle at all. Maybe it buys an

29:41office launch. may probably doesn't even

29:43cover that.

29:45And they're like, "Well, what if the

29:47book doesn't hit?" And so I'm like,

29:49"Well, that's the best part for you

29:52because if the book doesn't hit, then

29:54you retain all the IP and the rights in

29:56the book. If we don't cover test, cuz we

29:58had this. There were books that were um

30:02that we liked. We didn't test them

30:04first. We, you know, tried to get them

30:05going, but at the end of the day, it

30:07moved to the backlist. It wasn't a big

30:09mover." And so you're like, "Why isn't

30:10this book moving?" And I was like, it's

30:12on our email, on our SMS, on a listical,

30:15on the website, but it's not moving, and

30:17I'm not going to put my paid traffic

30:19dollars on this to push a book that

30:21isn't a winner. I need to focus on the

30:23winning categories. And um and so now

30:27you're not trapped with us. You can do

30:29what you want with your own IP. So

30:32for you,

30:34>> well, say again,

30:35>> you save them money, you save them time.

30:36I think they're just in such an old

30:38school methodology. I mean, we're

30:39thinking like like almost like drop

30:41shippers like we're going to test a

30:42bunch of products, the winner is what

30:44we're going to scale. They're thinking

30:45like every single, you know, product can

30:47be like forced into a winner or

30:48something.

30:49>> Yeah. Yeah.

30:51>> And so the lesson for marketers is if

30:53you're going to stand up a new product,

30:55test the name, test the packaging, test

30:58the company name. We just did, we have a

31:01existing client and they came out with a

31:03new line and he had a couple different

31:04names for this product and I was like,

31:07"Did you test them?" He's like, "I

31:08really like this one." I was like,

31:09"Okay, cool. Well, we're just going to

31:11take our book cover testing process and

31:12we do the same thing for your product

31:14images and names." And it's very simple.

31:16Facebook ad, new product coming soon.

31:18Sign up to get notified and get 20% off.

31:21It's literally it. And um but templated

31:26standard, right? So like you change the

31:28image, you change the headline was the

31:30name of the product and that was it. And

31:31the ad text was the scent. And the

31:34winner that um he has gone with is the

31:37one that won almost every single day in

31:41the cost per lead. And so like it just

31:44won. And we dupe the ads. We put them in

31:46multiple adsets cuz you have one that'll

31:48be at a dollar, one's a 10. Like that's

31:50just the way the adsets work in Meta. So

31:53um but it just won. And then I think

31:55gosh, isn't that better than sitting on

31:58a hundred,000 or a half a million

31:59dollars worth of inventory with the

32:01wrong name?

32:03I don't know why more people don't test

32:05that that stuff. I literally don't

32:06understand.

32:07>> Jason, you said that it's not a good

32:10business

32:12that people should get into today.

32:13>> Yeah.

32:14>> So, you know, I discovered something

32:16interesting last year after tariffs came

32:19up, which was probably the worst three

32:20months of my career after those I dude I

32:23remember I had to go to Yellowstone for

32:24a break and just unplug.

32:26>> I was like throwing up from stress.

32:29>> But been there. Been there. Um, you

32:31know, I discovered a lot about tariffs

32:33and one of the things I learned about

32:34tariffs is

32:36like books like media is not tariffed.

32:39It's exempt.

32:41So, I know brands like tales.com

32:45where they will sell like a card deck or

32:48an activity book or whatever and they

32:50can actually still remain like a a

32:52glimpse of like pre-tariff margin

32:55>> and it's like a very big unfair

32:56advantage. Do you still think it's such

32:59an industry despite all that?

33:01>> It's interesting. So, um, so I'm friends

33:03with him. I saw him at an event in

33:05Austin and he ran me through his numbers

33:06and I think a lot of what he's achieved

33:08is, um, incredible actually. It's a

33:12great product and he's a good he's a

33:14good marketer and he's a good dude. I

33:16really really like him. Can't speak

33:18highly enough about him.

33:20But what was interesting is is that like

33:21in hindsight,

33:24I think one of the things that I take a

33:26look at too is we didn't lean into Tik

33:28Tok. We tried, but I think Tik Tok was

33:31too early when we took a swing at it. At

33:34that point,

33:35>> take a swing at it. What year was that?

33:38>> 202

33:41maybe 21.

33:42>> We took a swing at Tik Tok in 21.

33:44>> You had to wait till Tik Tok shop came

33:46out. Man, those tails guys crush it on

33:48Tik Tok. I know. And so like we would

33:50get So it was all CPM, right? It was

33:53like I think that I should be like

33:56$1,000 for to like make some content and

34:01totally like random and whatever. And so

34:04um you know, I think if I went into

34:07advertising today, I would be I would

34:09cut my teeth on Tik Tok, not on Meta.

34:11>> So hold on, Zane. Those guys on Tales,

34:14they do a lot of volume on Tik Tok shop.

34:15Yeah, they do crazy numbers on Tik Tok

34:17shop. I think they started very early as

34:19well. So I want to say like they have

34:21hundreds of thousands of units sold or

34:23something. A lot of it is the card game.

34:24So kind of you're talking about like all

34:26those card game guys got to use that

34:28kind of media exception. So like when

34:30tariffs hit they were like they were

34:31chilling. Um it is the tough part of

34:34that business is it's very seasonal as

34:36well. Um, but like if you ever seen

34:38those videos, they get millions of views

34:40where it's like you're going up to your

34:41parent or something and you're asking

34:43them a question about their life and

34:45you're reading off the card and getting

34:47more of their story. So, it's a very

34:48high emotional appeal, has a really good

34:50hook. It seems super organic. It doesn't

34:52seem like you're pushing the product.

34:54So, very good for Tik Tok shop. Uh, but

34:56yeah, those businesses crusher in Q4 is

34:58just it's just about that inventory

34:59management and that cash flow

35:00management. It feels like every six

35:02months there's like a business that

35:03makes the waves that just breaks me.

35:06Like it just destroys me because like

35:07they're doing something that's like,

35:08"Oh, of course that's working." Like

35:10last year was it was Gruns, you know,

35:12like Grunza was Q1, Q2.

35:14>> This year too,

35:15>> I guess this year too, but like it's

35:17like of course like meta the arbitrage

35:19is gone, but if you can break even and

35:22you can focus on LTV to CAC, of course

35:24you went on meta, right? Right. And

35:25that's why you're seeing so many people

35:26like a bunch of people are launching

35:28Grun's copycats left and right because

35:30like it just works.

35:31>> I mean single skew single skew

35:33subscription like that's the that's the

35:36thing.

35:36>> Hyper optimized inventory too. Like it's

35:38a single skew. You can predict that it's

35:40clean but then like there's brands like

35:42comfort which is like for me that's this

35:44year

35:44>> wild.

35:46>> And I'm just like what? Like that's even

35:48crazier than Grun's like 700 million's

35:50third year and like they're doing these

35:52real numbers you know. It's just abs

35:54absolutely insane.

35:56>> It is one of my favorite stories that uh

35:58I told several people um after we were

36:00at that conference and I remember we're

36:02standing at the crosswalk and one of you

36:05guys I can't remember who it was but one

36:06of them was like I don't know if they're

36:08really doing 700 million. The other

36:10guy's like I heard that they are. And I

36:12remember I said who cares if they're

36:14doing 350 million. The numbers are still

36:17so massive. It does it's wild. It's one

36:21of those stories you hear about it and

36:22you're like,

36:24>> "Is that real?" That's the most

36:25incredible story I've ever heard.

36:27>> It's really the growth rate. The growth

36:28rate has been like 10x or something like

36:30it'd be different if like this brand has

36:32been around for like 50 years or going

36:34by like maybe like 2xing every year.

36:36>> Not even so much like the dollar amount,

36:37just how fast they've grown without

36:39taking I think they I think they have

36:41like a PE um something investor, but

36:43it's just like it's not like they're

36:45raising tons of money that we can see

36:46publicly. It's not like the products are

36:49like super expensive, super high margin,

36:51like it's super reasonably priced um

36:53type stuff. So, it's and I think if you

36:56if you're in that Target demo, you can

36:57probably understand a lot better. If

36:59you're like kind of the Gen Z millennial

37:00market that they're serving for us,

37:02they're like we're almost like ans like

37:03we're seeing this and we're like, who's

37:04buying this? But we're not the target

37:06demo.

37:06>> Don't do that.

37:08>> Just mean that.

37:08>> Don't call me ank.

37:10>> I mean, maybe I'm 48 years old, but I

37:13was talking to my wife about it. I was

37:14like, do you know this this brand uh

37:16comfort? So, I'd heard of them, like

37:17they're in my ethos, but I didn't know

37:20what they were achieving. And she's

37:22like, "Oh, yeah, they just came out with

37:23a pajama line." I'm like, "How the hell

37:26do you know about that?" Well, my wife's

37:27in her 30s, right? And so, like, she's

37:30on TikTok. I'm never on Tik Tok. I

37:32haven't opened up Tik Tok in forever.

37:34And uh yeah, it's just a different It's

37:36just a different a very different demo.

37:38>> It's just crazy because I think Skims

37:41does like a billion dollars a year in

37:42revenue.

37:43>> Yeah. And it took scams way longer to

37:45get there with Kim Kardashian. So like

37:47>> y

37:47>> again confer just destroys my brain. Um

37:50but the theme of our pod is we're

37:52calling it what's working right and you

37:55have an amazing story but you also run

37:56an incredible agency business where you

37:58deploy tactics that are actively working

38:00today.

38:01>> Yeah.

38:01>> And I think Z and I would love to kind

38:03of dig into that and figure out what's

38:05working today for brands and

38:06entrepreneurs etc.

38:08>> Yeah. Yeah, I think one thing Jason even

38:10something like super basic like you were

38:13talking about ABOS's lately doing better

38:15than CBOS's. We constantly see like the

38:17cost cap debates. You had a lot of

38:19experience in meta and now and just like

38:21running your own stuff doing affiliate

38:23now you're running an agency where

38:24you're seeing across so many different

38:26accounts. What kind of structures are

38:27working like right now for you guys?

38:29What was the thought process between you

38:32know around running ABOS's? Why do you

38:34think they're working a little bit

38:35better? Just give us like the download.

38:37Um, yeah, happy to. Um, so I think the

38:41most important thing that I'll I'll

38:42start with is the foundation that most

38:44people on this on this that are

38:46listening will know. What worked

38:48yesterday

38:50will not work today, but it might work

38:52tomorrow or what's working today will

38:54not work tomorrow. It just happens. So,

38:57you know, dynamic ads didn't work for us

38:59on Meta and then they did and that's all

39:01we ran and then they stopped working.

39:02Wide horizontal scale structure, all of

39:04these things. And so for us, CBO uh was

39:09working pretty well and it's still in

39:11the mix and scale, but specific to your

39:14question, Zane, this is around testing.

39:16And so here's kind of what I what I saw

39:20and how I think about it and you know,

39:22I'm very active in the campaign. It's

39:24probably too active for my role in the

39:26organization, but it's my gym and

39:29whatever.

39:30So, we would come up with um you know uh

39:34we have a client, let's say that sells

39:36fruit baskets. And so, how are you going

39:39to launch a fruit basket client? Well,

39:40we're going to put in uh 10 or 12 avatar

39:43test. And I'm going to go apples,

39:45bananas, oranges, etc. You run down the

39:47list, you run them all, and you just

39:49kind of see what works to a very uh

39:51vanilla broad landing page. And, you

39:55know, our testing is very methodical in

39:57terms of those those steps. you know,

39:59it's not this affiliate mindset, uh,

40:01which I had for most of my life, which

40:03like, give me a link, moonshot, let's

40:05go. Which is super fun, by the way. I'm

40:07not knocking it at all. Most my friends

40:09are reformed affiliates or probably

40:11still are.

40:13And so that was working. That was

40:14working really great.

40:16>> And you just said you just said reformed

40:18affiliate.

40:19>> Yeah.

40:20>> Um, what do you would you would you say

40:23like you shouldn't start as an affiliate

40:25marketer today at all or

40:26>> 100% start that way? Start that way

40:29>> 100%.

40:32Because if you think about the the

40:36what's the most important role in any

40:38business?

40:39>> Marketing.

40:41>> Yeah. Sales guy. Sales and marketing.

40:43That's it. Who's the highest paid guy in

40:45any business? The marketer. And so like

40:48a great sales guy can sell a product. A

40:51bad sales guy cannot sell an amazing

40:53product. And so when you think about

40:56like the best marketers I know were just

40:58they all came up as affiliates and why

41:00is that? They didn't have to focus on

41:02anything else other than uh driving

41:05traffic and the reps and the cycles are

41:08so so high. Who's leading the charge in

41:11AI? Affiliates.

41:14I know guys with brands who are doing

41:16crazy stuff crazy stuff. But the

41:19affiliates don't eat unless they figure

41:21this out, right? I also think that

41:25affiliates depending on the vertical you

41:26go into like will run more aggressive

41:30and so and when you hit you make more

41:32margin than an agency like when we

41:33flipped to agency um we ran affiliate

41:36postbook business for for a minute and

41:38then I was like let's just go into

41:39agency I want smoother cash flow I don't

41:42want the ups and downs and a lot of my

41:43boys were like dude you you can't make

41:44as much money and I was like I know but

41:47I don't lose I wake up in the morning

41:50and if we have a bad day it still

41:52stresses me out. I'm am not the guy to

41:55just spend like I don't like that it

41:57>> I also think agencies are just

41:58underrated. Like I think especially with

42:00AI like and agency business is a new SAS

42:04like we're just not seeing the capital

42:05catch up to that fact yet. But like

42:07>> SAS is dead. I can go program a web app

42:10in like a day and I have

42:11>> but like a services business with

42:13specialized knowledge that can optimize

42:15its cost and deliverables and get better

42:17and better and better with its

42:19verticalized knowledge. That's the new

42:20SAS

42:21>> for for sure. I mean, I I look at

42:23copywriting and so anybody can write

42:26some copy to sell a thing, but I was

42:28like, what we know from the past and the

42:31reps that we have and the breath of

42:33client mix that we have, we're just

42:35going to learn faster than you. So, our

42:37prompts, our markdown files are better

42:40than yours, right? Because you just have

42:42shared learning. Like, you just have

42:43multiple people hitting it. Creating the

42:47video ain't that big a deal. Neither's

42:49writing the copy, but like it's that

42:51additional 5% of knowledge that just,

42:54you know, creates that lift. You're

42:56what's that line? You're one split test

42:57away from doubling your revenue.

43:00>> Yeah. I think I think all of us have

43:02agency businesses. So, we all understand

43:04this. Like for us, it's like an example

43:06is in post-prouction. Like knowing how

43:08to edit a video with taste that's really

43:09really good. Everyone notices when a

43:11video is edited well. Everyone ignore

43:14video that's not edited well basically,

43:16>> right? An AI can't edit videos very well

43:18because the file size are like this pot

43:20is going to be like 100 gigs or

43:22something.

43:25>> Yeah, I think what you said was was

43:27true, Isaac, is like the SAS is really

43:29getting cooked right now. Like so many

43:30guys are vibe coding like there's just

43:33not a whole lot of edge to be had and I

43:35just feel like it's so hard to like

43:37price on like spend or something crazy

43:39on like a tool that like they can

43:41in-house build really quickly. There's

43:43obviously pros and cons. Like for

43:44affiliate, like you were saying,

43:45Kadashi, you can make a lot more money

43:47in like one day. Like you're going to

43:48hit one day records and like making 20

43:5030 grand, but then like the next day you

43:51could be

43:52>> six figures a day. Like

43:54>> we have we have those days like

43:58>> Well, yeah.

43:59>> Agency is a lot more smoothed out. Like

44:01it's you're not going to be making like

44:02100 grand in a day, but you're like in

44:04the course of a month, you're less

44:05likely to lose money, right? You kind of

44:07have the downside protection. you don't

44:08have as much upside maybe depending on

44:10if it reps you or not as as being an

44:12affiliate. Uh but yeah, I think I think

44:14that's that's super interesting. You got

44:16you got people like Holiday talking

44:17about like Sean's like software enabled

44:19agencies. I think he I think he has

44:21something there where it's like, hey,

44:23you're going to have tools that agencies

44:25are going to build. they're going to

44:27really have that specialized knowledge

44:28where they know how to, you know, make

44:31100 AI videos, but they're actually good

44:33versus a brand is like, yeah, they have

44:34the tools to make 180 videos every day,

44:36but like they don't have the specialized

44:38knowledge to like make sure that that's

44:39actually quality.

44:40>> I'm just seeing such an interesting mix

44:41of businesses. Like I've talked to a

44:43staffing company where they're thinking

44:45of building like specialized open claw

44:48for like account for their for their

44:50partners that they have like a lot of

44:51dentist offices for some reason.

44:53>> Yeah. they staff VAS and it's like well

44:55we can automate appointments and like

44:57everything with like a little AI right

44:59so like we're seeing a lot of that I'm

45:00also talking to brands that are like

45:02trying to for create their own

45:03proprietary like like and that lives in

45:06their Slack and like there's agencies

45:08helping them with that so like I don't I

45:10don't know man Jason are you seeing

45:12anything interesting

45:14yeah I I think one of the things that um

45:19I think about a lot is the world that

45:22you live in is an echo chamber. So, I'm

45:24living in a world of cracked AI

45:27marketers.

45:28Um, I'm in this group. It's like 50

45:31people. And when I wake up in the

45:33morning, I last I look is at like 9:00

45:36p.m. there are like a thousand unread

45:39messages. Like literally a thousand. And

45:41so I scroll through them because I don't

45:43want to miss anything. And then I

45:44finally hooked up uh Telegram through an

45:46API so that I could like scroll through

45:48and summarize and whatever because I

45:49just can't do it. Um, but when I think

45:53about AI, the basics, to your point,

45:55Isaac, have been done and they're just

45:57getting better. The video quality is

45:58going to get better. The lip sync's

45:59going to get better. The um, you know,

46:02the models for writing copy are going to

46:03get better. Like, all of that is

46:05going to get better. The thesis I have

46:08though is I have two pieces to it. One

46:11is

46:13how do you go after the dentist's office

46:15and the lawyers who don't live in the

46:17echo chamber? I do, and you do. And they

46:20got money too. Like selling to a legal

46:22firm versus selling to like an SMB ecom

46:25brand is like two completely different

46:28>> That's right.

46:30>> Ecom is very very broke. I think we all

46:32>> Yeah. Yeah. It is. I I Yes. And I I

46:36think the other thing that I think about

46:37a lot um like a lot a lot is around the

46:41data side of things. And so how do you

46:46basically if I can make a,000 ads a day

46:49or more, how do I become efficient with

46:52those budgets and how do I um look at

46:55statistical modeling to be efficient

46:57with budget? That is my big focus and I

47:00think that's the moat that we're going

47:01to build around um our agency and where

47:05I'm not going to give it to anybody

47:06else. I'm not going to turn into SAS.

47:07Like this is our thing because the

47:11there's only two pieces. Isaac hit one

47:14which was specialized knowledge. So, you

47:16know, I I have more historical knowledge

47:19than a lot of people. And we have a

47:23portfolio that allows us to test a lot

47:25all the time and take the winners, you

47:26know, sort of cross client. And the last

47:28one is really just sort of on the the

47:30data side of things. And so, um, if if

47:35we go back to the original question

47:36around like what's working now, this is

47:38a great segue back to it was we had

47:41these CBOS because we throw up all these

47:42ads, right? And you let Facebook figure

47:45stuff out and then, you know, and maybe

47:48you're running cost controls, maybe

47:50you're running big caps, cost cases,

47:52whatever else. And I'm only talking

47:53about testing here. I think there's a

47:56couple things that I noticed and it was

47:59a nice refresh.

48:01Uh, but I looked at these CBOS and so

48:04you have 10 adsets and one of these

48:05adsets, this is a true story, got 35

48:08clicks over seven days.

48:12What do I know about this ad? Nothing. I

48:15know nothing. And then you think, does

48:19Meta go, I know more, so I'm going to

48:22put all my traffic over here. Well, let

48:25me tell you what Meta cares about. Meta

48:27cares about two things. They care about

48:29engagement. The more engagement on

48:31platform, the more ad inventory, the

48:33more ad space they have to sell, and

48:35they care about eCPM. Raise your hand if

48:38you care about either of those two. We

48:41don't I don't care. And if you took like

48:45a sexy woman and you put her on a a

48:47Ferrari holding a bag of cash, I don't

48:50care what you're selling. That shit's

48:51going to click. Are those bid caps going

48:54to catch that? No, they're not. And so I

48:59so now we switch back to adset budgets

49:01and the guys are like what are we going

49:03to do if we have 10 of them and I was

49:05like well what you have that AI doesn't

49:07is you have to be more discerning in the

49:09quality of the output that you make

49:11right and so like to Isaac's point

49:13around the editing on the back you're

49:16like I'm just telling you I don't like

49:17the quality of this and so even though

49:19you made 10 of these and we can spray

49:20and pray that's not what we're going to

49:22do. We're going to go edit three of them

49:24and we're going to take bigger bets. And

49:27in line with that, we're going to run

49:29ads set budgets and we're going to run

49:30them for 3 days, maybe two. And we focus

49:33on the initiate checkout metric. We do

49:35not focus on the purchase metric. And

49:38here's what I can tell you. A winning ad

49:41doesn't lose more than uh once in 3

49:44days, twice in seven.

49:46And so if you have five adsets and after

49:50two days you're over the initiated

49:52checkout target, whatever threshold

49:53you've set, let's assume you have a $100

49:56CPA target. You're looking for 33 bucks,

49:583 to1 ratio, whatever.

49:59>> How much are you spending on these

50:00adsets to test? Like what's your testing

50:02budget?

50:02>> I need um four initiate checkout budget

50:08a day. So if if I'm looking for 30

50:11bucks, I'm at like 120. and we day part.

50:14Um particularly when we're testing

50:16because the morning does the best and

50:18most of our stuff is off by one o'clock

50:20Eastern. Guys are like, "Oh, you can run

50:22all day." I was like, "Yeah, but this is

50:24the best part of the day." And then it

50:26dips and then you get a little bit of a

50:28rise in the evening. But if you're not

50:30fire in the morning, that dip is very

50:32painful and you won't make it back. And

50:35so I it's just be more aggressive with

50:38your clips and don't fall in love with

50:40your ads. And so that's what we're doing

50:43now. And the other thing is is that that

50:46I also found was when you have too many

50:48ads. So you have like all these ads and

50:50all these adets.

50:52There is nothing wrong with losing money

50:54testing.

50:56It's what we do. 98% of we run doesn't

50:59work or doesn't have the desired

51:01outcome. But to ignore the learnings

51:03from that is a massive mistake. And

51:05that's where I get pissed. So, like I

51:08had a guy used to work for me a while

51:10back and he goes um he was running like

51:1430 campaigns and I was like, "Dude, how

51:15are you running 30 campaigns?" He's

51:16like, "Super easy. I get there like 9:00

51:18in the morning Pacific." And I was like,

51:19"Out of budget." And I was or out of

51:20Target. I was like, "Clip clip clip clip

51:22clip." I was like, "Yeah, I got that.

51:23Takes like five minutes." Uh, how are

51:26you analyzing 30 campaigns with, you

51:30know, 300 ad sets and uh what is another

51:34hundred? I don't know, thousands of ads.

51:37Oh, dude. I'm not doing that. I was

51:38like, right. That's the difference

51:41between special ops and spray and prey.

51:45And we are not a spray and prey person.

51:47So anyway, that was the big move to

51:49adset budgets so that I actually can

51:51force the data. And then you got guys,

51:53what about min spend? Min spend doesn't

51:55dictate when that spend comes through.

51:58And if your min spend is high enough to

52:01get that, well then just run outside

52:04budgets.

52:05and then just literally control it. And

52:08so, you know, and you're looking for

52:10those winners. And now related to cost

52:12controls and stuff, we had a big trend

52:14in our agency recently where like

52:16everything was cost controls. Bid caps

52:18do not guarantee that your campaign is

52:21successful

52:22>> and they break all the time.

52:25>> What's up?

52:25>> They break all the time. Like sometimes

52:27you have the bid cap, it overspends.

52:29You're trying to get a refund from at a

52:31>> Yeah. So, you have some of that, but it

52:33doesn't always hit the target. And so

52:35like you know Andre Lunv who's a friend

52:37of mine it's his birthday today so I

52:39shot him a message who speaks about bid

52:40caps and whatever but it is not a

52:42guarantee and you still have to prune

52:44those losers.

52:46Um because you can inadvertently screw

52:48with the algorithm by sending stuff that

52:50has like a a ton of engagement.

52:53And I will say this very you know Jordan

52:56Manard coined this thing which I had

52:59never heard before and I thought about

53:00it but like

53:01>> what's up so

53:02>> he's a boss. Shout out

53:04>> natural CAC.

53:06The natural CAC. And so what I told my

53:09team uh last week is I'm like, a good ad

53:12doesn't need cost controls.

53:14>> Yeah,

53:15>> it doesn't. And so one of the guys I was

53:17like, you have all these cost controls.

53:19He's been with me for years. And I'm

53:21like, you made a lot of money last year.

53:26And if you look at your biggest month in

53:28January, how many of last year? How many

53:31of those campaigns had cost controls?

53:33Zero. And then your second biggest month

53:36was October of this year. How many of

53:38those campaigns had cost controls? Two.

53:43And they worked because they were

53:44winners. And so, like, put down the the

53:48alley, you know, lanes at the bowling

53:50alley. And at least for me, I bowl

53:53better if I'm not distracted. I actually

53:54b I'm not a good bowler at all, but I

53:56bowl worse when you like have that

53:58distraction in the gutters.

54:01And so that's that's really the the big

54:04change in strategy. I think the on the

54:07scaling side the goal is still the same.

54:10What is the goal of an ad campaign? It

54:11is to build a large CBO and there's some

54:14different structures around it. But

54:15macro level you the goal is to build a

54:18large CBO or CBOS. So video and static

54:21we don't put them together but like of

54:24all the winners. the more winners you

54:26get, the bigger the CBO gets and then

54:27you have to break them out because you

54:29do run into the same issue and um you

54:32know there you go. And so and then

54:35really paying attention to

54:39what's losing why and learn from it. If

54:42you don't you were wasting money and

54:45that's gambling.

54:46>> What I really like about what you said

54:47is that is just like the you know you're

54:49you're putting up these control like

54:51everything works in theory, right? Like

54:52bedcap sounds amazing in theory. Coscap

54:54sounds amazing to like great you're

54:56going to spend and you're going to get

54:57me at like this ideal CPA and like days

54:59when days when it's doing really well

55:01you're going to spend 100k and I'm going

55:02to be super profitable and I'm never

55:03going to spend on days where I'm not

55:04profit like everything works in theory

55:06in practice like that's not working. I

55:08heard Manard say in an interview, he

55:10asked the interviewer like who was

55:12really into cost caps and he was like,

55:14"Do you have a sing?" They were also an

55:15agency operator. Do you have a single

55:17account that's spending at least 100k a

55:20day that's fully cost cap and the

55:22interviewer hadn't had it. Menard's

55:25never had it. Like no one's ever spent

55:27at scale. Maybe not ever, but it's very

55:29rare that you spend at scale. 100% cost

55:32cap and kept it at 100K plus per day.

55:34And with lowest cost you can do that

55:36with with cost cap. I've yet to I've yet

55:38to see it.

55:39>> Andre Andre to Andre's thing he did put

55:42up a screenshot. He has done it. It is

55:44just very very very hard.

55:46>> It's very hard. It's very rare. I I'm

55:49not convinced that you can sustain it

55:50for like more than a month of just like

55:52100k per day. Uh but boys, we're running

55:54up on time. Koutasi, my last question

55:56for you. If people want to find you,

55:58they want to find you on socials. If

56:00people want to find the agency, where

56:01can they go? Where are the website?

56:03Where are the handles? Drop it on us,

56:04baby.

56:05>> Uh, yeah, just hit me on Twitter is by

56:07far the best. Um, Jason Katasi, my full

56:10name. Uh, Telegram. Whiskeyatx, um, is

56:13another way. I'm pretty active on on

56:15Telegram. That's where all my boys are.

56:17Um, and, uh, yeah, that's the that's the

56:20best way to to to do it.

56:22>> Thank you, Jason. Thank you, brother.

56:25>> Thanks. Thanks um