Full transcript
0:01So there is also a real loss of income
0:02on the part of the State since those
0:04who are in the economy still pay taxes
0:06but they do not function . They do not
0:09function and therefore they cannot pay
0:11taxes . There is also a fact that must
0:15be noted when the Minister speaks of
0:18governance , governance not only at the
0:21government level but also at the level
0:23of these public companies themselves ,
0:26especially since you have areas where
0:28the
0:30>> government or the State , in any case ,
0:32does
0:33>> not necessarily have management
0:34autonomy . There is management autonomy .
0:37You have areas where there is not even
0:39electricity , where there has almost
0:41never been electricity , but people
0:43still pay bills . You see , you have
0:45areas where there is not even water ,
0:46the water does not flow . People still
0:48pay bills .
1:04>> Good evening everyone and welcome to
1:06Carlil's gang . Tonight , we're heading
1:10to Brazzaville to decipher the news in
1:11the Republic of Congo . And with me on
1:15this set are Guy Fimba , Maître Ben
1:17Luther Toué and Lucien Pombou . Good
1:19evening , gentlemen .
1:20>> Good evening .
1:21>> Good evening .
1:22>> Today , Congo is facing a
1:24multidimensional crisis in Brazzaville
1:26as well as in Pointe Noire . The queues
1:29are getting longer in front of gas
1:31stations . Due to a lack of kerosene ,
1:33domestic flights are canceled . Priority
1:36is being given to international flights
1:39and water and electricity cuts are
1:41punctuating the daily lives of the
1:43Congolese . On October 3 , before the
1:46political bureau of the PCT , the ruling
1:48party , Prime Minister Anatole Colinet
1:51Makoso gave his reading of the
1:53situation . Watch . Their main cause
1:57number 2 : insufficient production of
1:59petroleum products by Courf , the amount
2:02of crude oil made available to Courf ,
2:04and the limited financial capacity of
2:07SNPC , which does not allow it to import
2:09the quantities necessary to meet
2:11national demand without interruption ,
2:14in a context where information is often
2:16relayed in a biased manner to create
2:19tensions . It seems crucial to me to
2:22maintain a frank and open dialogue , to
2:24use our various channels of information
2:26feedback to detect bottlenecks early on
2:32, to discuss together the realities on
2:34the ground and to find ways to mitigate
2:36them for the well-being of our
2:37populations and the development of our
2:39country .
2:41>> So , sir , he gives the reasons for this
2:44crisis , according to him . What do you
2:47think of the Prime Minister's
2:48explanations ? I'll start with you ,
2:50Lucien Pou .
2:51>> Yes . Listening to the Prime Minister ,
2:55we were a little shocked . The
2:58impression he gives is that he has been
3:01making observations since almost his
3:03first term in 2021 and now in 2026. He
3:06makes magnificent observations ,
3:08diagnoses of the various
3:10multidimensional crises Congo is going
3:13through , but we have the impression
3:15that the way out is relatively narrow .
3:19Why is the way out relatively narrow ?
3:23Simply because we have a management
3:26that is based first and foremost on the
3:30belief that oil revenues will be the
3:33solution first . Solution to what ? Well ,
3:38a solution to pay salaries , to invest ,
3:41to repay the debt . We can clearly see
3:44that all of this at the same time is
3:45not possible . First observation . Second
3:48observation , in Congo Brazzaville , debt
3:51is indeed used as an instrument of
3:53economic policy . That is to say , we go
3:56into debt to repay the debt when
3:58normally we should go into debt in a
4:01certain way to make productive
4:03investments that will increase the
4:05gross domestic product and then make it
4:07possible to repay it . Thirdly , there is
4:10an important element . The International
4:13Monetary Fund was in Brazzaville
4:15between September 24 and October 7. Why
4:18? Why ? Well , simply because Congo
4:22requested further access to an expanded
4:25credit facility .
4:27>> Is this an expanded facility a good
4:29idea ? That can be a good thing . Debt is
4:33never inherently bad , provided that it
4:35is used to invest in productive assets
4:38which allow for job creation and ,
4:41ultimately , for the creation of value .
4:43None of that in Congo . Debt is an
4:47instrument that allows previous debts
4:49to be repaid . And here , there is the
4:53domestic debt , of course , to economic
4:56operators , and then there is the
4:58external debt . This choice for the
5:02Congo was not made by the Prime
5:04Minister alone . I think the President
5:07of the Republic made this choice about
5:10thirty years ago . What was the idea ?
5:12The idea is that oil allowed us to
5:15consolidate and secure our bases and
5:17then diversify . However , we realized
5:20along the way that in the years
5:252006-2010 , when we had access to what
5:27was called the agreement for heavily
5:30indebted poor countries , the
5:31international community was willing to
5:34reduce the debt and we know that at
5:36that time , as the price of oil had
5:38increased , it had gone from 90 to 120
5:41dollars , that the Congo had become rich
5:43and then , gradually , we gave up , we
5:46gave up and we made debt an instrument
5:48for steering the economy . While there
5:52are other factors that need to be taken
5:53into account and that we do not
5:55voluntarily take into account . For
5:57example ,
5:57>> there is the problematic
5:59diversification in agriculture . Okay ,
6:02but we talk about it , it's
6:03>> like the sect of angels , we talk about
6:05it but we never see it . And so nothing
6:07is done , that's the first thing .
6:10Secondly , the reforms that the
6:11International Monetary Fund is calling
6:13for , on what ? On the recovery of
6:16non-oil resources . Firstly , on the
6:20centralization of a single window at
6:23the Treasury , on reducing spending .
6:28There is too much spending , the quality
6:30of spending , and then on the fight
6:31against embezzlement and so on , and
6:33unnecessary spending . So there is a
6:36political choice in my opinion that
6:38does not absolutely depend on the Prime
6:40Minister , but which is a choice that
6:42was deliberately put in place . So for
6:45political reasons , that's for sure , but
6:47not really for economic reasons since
6:49we can clearly see that there is no
6:51guiding principle , there is no strategy
6:53, there is no economic model that would
6:55allow us to say this is where we are
6:57going . We want to do everything at once
7:00, but do nothing .
7:00>> And so the population is going round in
7:02circles .
7:02>> So the population is not just going in
7:04circles , it is the population that
7:05suffers . It suffers in terms of wages .
7:07So wages are not paid . The civil
7:10service , of course , is not getting paid
7:13since most of the people who are paid ,
7:15especially the military , some civil
7:18servants . So there is a category of
7:21people who are paid but not everyone
7:23and so we are in a situation where we
7:25have the impression that we have to
7:27wait for the next increase in the price
7:30of a barrel of oil to revive the
7:32economy . So we are living in a
7:34completely vicious cycle .
7:36>> H gufimba . So , uh , it is an
7:40understatement to say that there is a
7:42multidimensional crisis . No , the
7:45country is bankrupt in fact . Uh ,
7:48>> if you see , he was there in front of
7:50the ruling party .
7:51>> Yes .
7:52>> The Prime Minister in front of the
7:54ruling party to try to make a diagnosis
7:57as Lucien said and , uh , how do you say
8:00it ? Propose solutions . But in reality ,
8:04I repeat , the country is bankrupt . What
8:09I am saying is still weak , madam .
8:12People need to understand one thing . In
8:14this country today , there is no water ,
8:16there is no electricity . Hospitals are
8:18on strike . The education system is
8:21broken because there are students who
8:22have not returned to school , simply
8:24because their parents are not being
8:25paid . Our retired parents hit over 50
8:28months . Some town halls exceed 100
8:30months now . The country is in limbo .
8:32When I say this , it is not a political
8:34slogan , it is an observation .
8:37>> Now , the question we must ask ourselves
8:39during this program is whether this is
8:41a cyclical or a structural crisis . The
8:44crisis is structural and it is a crisis
8:46of governance . Mr. Denis Sass has been
8:49here for more than 30 years . He offered
8:52us , I don't know how many , five or six
8:55programs , and we had a historic
8:58opportunity in the 2010s when we erased
9:00Congo's debt through the heavily
9:03indebted poor country program . The
9:07counters reached zero , and strangely
9:10enough , but in reality it was
9:12incompetence , corruption , and theft
9:15from the public . We found ourselves
9:18once again one of the most indebted
9:20countries per capita . Now , for the last
9:2310 years , it's been the Prime Minister ,
9:26Colinet Makoso .
9:28>> Yes .
9:29>> Taking the case of , he spoke about fuel
9:32and I heard him say , the SNPC is facing
9:37a cash flow problem .
9:39>> Yes , the SNPC's finances are limited .
9:42>> But I am outraged .
9:43>> Yes , it's
9:44>> our oil company . That's all we have as
9:47resources . But what did the SNPC
9:50actually do to find itself
9:52>> in this current cash flow situation ? An
9:56oil-producing country
9:58>> that has difficulty refining oil and at
10:01the same time serving consumers . But in
10:05reality , it's a problem with the
10:07governance of the SNP . Let's just focus
10:09on fuel . A governance problem because
10:13there has been a whole , economists will
10:16say it better than I can , there have
10:19been all sorts of opaque circuits that
10:22have been set up where crude oil is
10:24taken and sent through a screen . This
10:29crude oil is sent abroad to be refined
10:32and resold in Congo . And it is the
10:36lenders , the oligarchs in power who
10:38benefit . First thing . Second thing , the
10:42management of our country's oil is
10:44opaque because this oil has been used
10:46to pledge and obtain loans .
10:50>> While in the 2010s , we were programming
10:53with the IMF , it had been prohibited .
10:56We had to stop this government's
10:58pre-pledges . Both , both , the two
11:01successive terms of the Prime Minister ,
11:04as Lucien said , we have used debt now
11:07as a public policy in order to restart
11:10the economic machine . But in reality
11:13>> today , the SNC , the SNPC , sorry ,
11:16continues to export barrels of oil .
11:19>> Yes , but often it is oil that is
11:21pledged
11:23>> because we are hungry for debt , we live
11:25on anticipation , but what is the worst
11:27thing ? I think that the IMF , as early
11:33as 2021 , had requested in its program
11:36the audit of a certain number of
11:38structures in the SNPC , but the audit
11:41was never , was never
11:44>> done . Why ? And Lucien says it and says
11:47it again in such clear terms because
11:49they want to attack the Prime Minister ,
11:51they want to attack the boss of the
11:54SNPC or the Minister of Hydrocarbons .
11:57For me , in reality , it's a policy that
11:59Mr. Denis Sasou Ngesso has validated
12:02and that he , uh , at a pinch , turns a
12:04blind eye to everything that's
12:06happening , hence ... Today , this country
12:08is bankrupt , but the Congolese people
12:13are living in hell , particularly on the
12:15issue of fuel and other sectors . We
12:18will certainly come back to that .
12:20>> Mr. Ben Luther . So , uh , I think it's
12:23the same observation that we can , we
12:26can , we can , we can . And , uh , I just
12:29have a simple question . How can an
12:33oil-producing country experience fuel
12:35shortages ? Fuel ? Well , it's like
12:39>> you would say , how can a country that
12:42produces a lot of cocoa , for example ,
12:45not produce enough chocolate , for
12:48example . Hm ,
12:49>> hm . You see ? So that's not really the
12:52question . We can be an oil-producing
12:55country but we don't have the means to
12:58refine it . The problem is this , it's at
13:01the refining level . This is mainly
13:04because we know that our oil is
13:06exploited by multinationals and so on .
13:10Congo doesn't really have the same
13:11stake in oil . To be convinced , you just
13:15have to look at a certain number of
13:18documentaries on the practices of ELF
13:21and now Totally Energy and this
13:23exploitation .
13:25>> Well , I couldn't tell you where the
13:26money from this exploitation goes ,
13:28madam , I'm not in the arcades of that .
13:33So if I tell you , and since it is
13:34indicated here that our main source is
13:36oil , then I would say that the money
13:38goes to the public treasury . Now , if
13:41the money is in the public treasury ,
13:42what do we do with it ? That's the
13:44question . That's
13:44>> the question . Is the money that goes to
13:47the public treasury used to serve the
13:49needs of the Congolese people ? So , I'm
13:52not , I'm not , well , I am going to let
13:55>> you have the floor now . So , I'm not
13:58privy to God's secrets to tell you
14:00exactly where the money is going . But
14:02is there a real problem ? There is a
14:05real problem because we can't
14:07understand , and it didn't start today ,
14:09these fuel shortage problems . We're
14:11just talking about Prime Minister
14:13Nathan , Colonel Makoso , but I remember
14:16that at the time of Clément Moamba ,
14:18this problem was ongoing all the time ,
14:20all the time , all the time , and even
14:23the debt , the debt had also taken on
14:25enormous dimensions under the former
14:28Prime Minister , the late Clément
14:30Clément Moimba . But in my opinion , we
14:33can't use the pretext of debt to
14:36explain the lack of fuel . That's it , to
14:40explain the lack of fuel . Because we
14:41just have to realize the reality . These
14:44people , those who are in government and
14:46so on , well , they're running . How do
14:48they drive ? What do they use , water in
14:50their vehicles ? No ,
14:52>> they have fuel already supplied . So
14:54it's the people who are partly
14:56suffering . It's a fact , it's a fact . I
14:59think we are all here for the Congolese
15:02people . We are all here for the
15:03Congolese . And I welcome the fact that
15:07the Prime Minister and the Don also
15:09said that the fuel problem could also
15:11be linked to the electricity , water and
15:14so on problem . And I have the
15:18impression today that the government is
15:21really becoming aware of the situation .
15:24Awareness of the situation . The
15:26government realizes that it risks being
15:28on the verge of implosion , in fact . Yes
15:33.
15:33>> Social , you see ?
15:37>> Finally , when he realizes what the
15:39government is doing , well , we are
15:41talking about debt , over-indebtedness ,
15:44to try to think about the PLA and so on
15:46, but here again , it is to push the
15:49country further into improbable ,
15:51improbable situations . But we cannot
15:54say that the government has folded its
15:56arms while watching the Congolese
15:58suffer . No. I hold P.
16:00>> So regarding this question raised by GU
16:02and raised by the master , there are two
16:04problems . There is the technical
16:06problem and the refining problem . We
16:09have a refinery , the Coraf , whose
16:11refining capacity , sorry , is relatively
16:14low compared to economic demand , social
16:18demand . So we are forced to import what
16:24in energy terms are called white
16:27products , that is to say refined oil
16:29that becomes gas or diesel . Well ,
16:32except that , uh , there is a small
16:35problem in , uh , the implementation and ,
16:39how shall I say , of this refining ,
16:42Congo does not have control over , uh ,
16:46its policy . So recently , discussions
16:49have been held with one of the
16:51wealthiest businessmen in Africa , Mr.
16:53Dangote , in order to import some oil
16:55simultaneously . Now , what Mr. Doté
17:00wants is not simply to sell oil to the
17:03Congo , but to import Congolese oil ,
17:06refine it and then resell it and
17:09implement a strategic policy with a
17:12strong condition . We have to pay , the
17:15coffers are empty , we can't pay . So
17:17>> where does the over-indebtedness come
17:18from ?
17:18>> So there you have it . So first , first
17:20difficulty . Second difficulty , earlier ,
17:23we said that Congo was living on debt .
17:25Yes . What does
17:26>> that mean ? There is not just debt on
17:28international markets , there is also
17:30what is called pre-financing , as
17:32mentioned earlier , secured debts . A
17:34very simple example : Congo needs 500
17:37million euros . Well , I don't have them ,
17:41but I'll go see the traders , that is ,
17:43those who are the intermediaries in the
17:45oil sector . Glencor for example , and
17:49Orion for example . Then I say , " I need
17:52Etrafigoura , I need 500 million . " Very
17:55well . We give them to you in cash and
17:59you pay them back after 3 years in
18:02barrels of oil plus 7 or 8 % interest
18:05plus the discount on the price . This
18:10means that not only if the price of oil
18:12drops , you have to pay back what you
18:15owe with an interest rate , but you also
18:17have to provide , how shall I say ,
18:19additional cargoes . So you can clearly
18:23see that this policy aims to finally
18:26neutralize any economic horizon in
18:28terms of financing , but it is a choice .
18:31The false monetary system rejects this .
18:35It wants it no more , yet still wants it
18:37. So it is a bit complicated , but the
18:39Congo is still in the NAS
18:42>> very quickly , very quickly , uh , sorry ,
18:44my dean . Uh , uh , I think there is a
18:48solution . The solution that I can
18:51recommend is , uh , the simple
18:53privatization , for example , of the CNPC
18:56, as they did with
18:58>> the privatization of the SNPC , or or
19:00even , uh , uh , that things are done
19:02within the framework of a public
19:04service delegation , public service . So ,
19:08to ensure that we can make this company
19:10autonomous because I have the
19:12impression that , uh , the State is
19:14helping itself enormously , uh , in fact ,
19:17in the coffers of this company , you see
19:20. So , I want this to be privatized as
19:23part of a public service delegation , in
19:26order to make it autonomous , to make it
19:28autonomous and to ensure that … you
19:30mentioned Dongoté , for example , well ,
19:32he can buy back , for example , not buy
19:35back , but he can be entrusted with the
19:37management of the CPC with the
19:39obligation to improve , uh , the
19:40distribution of oil , fuel , etc. , and
19:43therefore to improve the living
19:44conditions of the Congolese people . Why
19:48? Because in the case of a public
19:50service delegation , well , we would talk
19:52for example about renting , well , Dongé
19:54, for example , would simply draw his
19:57remuneration directly from the users of
19:59the company . So he has a legal
20:02obligation to be able to improve the
20:05conditions of the users . I
20:08>> was just going to get to Guimumba , do
20:10you think this privatization would be a
20:12potential solution ?
20:13>> No , I have the cards in my hand . Uh ,
20:17that's it . That doesn't make sense .
20:18>> Why doesn't it make sense ? I'll come
20:20back to that .
20:20>> I'll start with this corruption story .
20:22Let's be honest . I don't mince words
20:25about a
20:25>> country plundered by its own leaders .
20:29When you talk about where the money
20:31from the SNPC goes , it's been plundered
20:33. The money was stolen through opaque
20:37channels . When Congo hits the headlines
20:42in the media , it's either the
20:44Malakiquis or tax havens . What do you
20:47call them ? Yeah , the havens . That's it ,
20:49right ? Secondly , still on the subject
20:52of corruption ,
20:53>> Congo , I'm
20:55>> not the one who said it , the Minister
20:57of Finance at the time , Mr. Gilbert
20:59Wondongo , spoke of 14 billion CFA
21:00francs . 14,000 billion CFA francs of
21:04future generations that we had that we
21:06would have put into an account , what do
21:08you call it ? The BAC has disappeared
21:12until today . When we ask President
21:15Denis Sasou Ngeso , he has difficulty
21:17even pronouncing the word , so they are
21:19thieves . I don't mince my words . They
21:23are thieves , sooner or later these
21:25people will have to answer to the SNPC .
21:28There is no question of privatization ,
21:30we must not invent the wheel , opposite
21:32there is Angola , and then it is a
21:34question of sovereignty .
21:36>> How did we come to create the Gulf
21:38country ? Because there were visionaries
21:40and competent people . The Gulf
21:43countries used oil , as we can call it ,
21:47a locomotive to diversify their economy
21:50. And I even say something because this
21:54is where I resent the PCT power , Mr.
21:56Denis Sasoues . The idea of the SNPC
21:59came from President Pascal Lisoua when
22:01he imposed the production sharing
22:03contract . That way , we will recover a
22:07good portion of oil production and we
22:09will create a development tool like the
22:12Gulf countries had to do . Angola , next
22:16door , gained independence well after us
22:18today . It is thanks to Angola that
22:20Angola already has a certain amount of
22:22infrastructure today . I will end on the
22:25technical issues that he has to talk
22:27about to say to what extent this
22:28government is a government -
22:30>> not to be pejorative but it must be
22:31said - a government of assemblers . Look ,
22:35in 2025 , Congo Brazzaville acquired a
22:37second refinery in Fouta near Point
22:39Noires , supported by the company
22:40Beijing Fortune , a Chinese company .
22:43>> Yes . At a cost of around 600 million
22:46dollars . In 2025 , there was , as usual ,
22:50a big demonstration , the entire
22:52diplomatic corps , everyone was there . A
22:56year later , where is this refinery that
22:59was supposed to produce 2.5 million
23:02tons of hydrocarbons per year ? There's
23:07nothing . What does that mean ? We have a
23:10refinery , but a state is a prospective .
23:14We have our oil , we have to build two
23:16or three refineries . Otherwise , we do
23:19what is called pooling intelligence and
23:22resources . We can work with neighboring
23:25countries like Gabon to say let's join
23:28forces to build a refinery that will
23:30serve the region . So it's a problem of
23:34incompetence , bad governance , lack of
23:36vision and in particular , and
23:38unfortunately , I've always said that
23:41this system is like a feudal system .
23:44Congo has become a feudal system where
23:46there is a king , there are lords .
23:47President Dice Sasou became king . By
23:49the way , the term “ lucier ” is very ,
23:52very good
23:54>> because if we were to stop this affair ,
23:56we should have stopped it a long time
23:58ago . Oil revenues are currently being
24:02used to enrich the oligarchy , to enrich
24:04families , and it is the Congolese
24:06people who are paying the heavy price
24:09for this mismanagement .
24:11>> But what exactly could the Congolese
24:13people do ? To get out of this situation
24:15and stop paying the price every time .
24:17>> But you know , earlier we talked about
24:19the risk of social implosion . Earlier I
24:21talked about hell .
24:23>> I told you there is no water , there is
24:24no electricity . The system is us , with
24:27the little means we have , we are now
24:29forced to pay for the children’s
24:31schooling there . There are no hospitals
24:34on strike . Our retired parents are on
24:38almost 50 months . Let’s not even talk
24:40about decentralization . So here we are
24:42and that is the risk and I am delighted
24:45that the ruling party has interviewed
24:47the Prime Minister . I am delighted
24:50because that is the role of a ruling
24:51party . As the ... the ... the
24:53parliamentarians have failed , they have
24:55not had ... both in the Assembly and in
24:57the Senate , even in the Senate from
24:59time to time it works , and so there is
25:01a risk , but a real risk today of social
25:04implosion , because even a sheep ...
25:07>> when it is afraid when it is against
25:09the wall it will jump on you today
25:12madam I will end with this
25:14>> when the Congolese tell you
25:17>> that there are at least 150 bodies
25:19leaving a morgue like the morgue of the
25:22Brazzaville University Hospital every
25:24day . You can imagine the darkness that
25:28has taken hold of this country
25:31>> and all this risks pushing the
25:33Congolese people one day to say we do
25:36not want it . But we who are political
25:38executives , I am a political executive ,
25:40we have stopped appealing to President
25:43Denis Sasou Ngeso for a historic
25:44political compromise . He is at an
25:46impasse , both politically and otherwise
25:48. But in reality , I have the impression
25:51, and this is my conviction , that the
25:54president no longer has the authority
25:56to try to throw out thieves and robbers
25:58like this . He spoke about it at the
26:01time , the rot is in the fruit , but he
26:02struggles to punish them and the
26:04country is adrift . And we are almost
26:07heading towards an implosion that does
26:09not say its name .
26:11>> Just a clarification in 30 seconds .
26:14>> Regarding what my doyer mentioned , when
26:16I was talking about privatization , the
26:19possibility of a public service
26:21delegation , Sonagol for example , the
26:23company that Mendoyer mentioned until
26:252000 , in 2019 it was , uh , a
26:27concessionaire public service
26:29delegation . It was a public service
26:33delegation until 2019. There was a
26:35presidential decree that made it
26:36possible to withdraw this public
26:38service delegation , but now entrusted
26:40the management of its agool to an
26:42independent public administrative
26:44authority , which gave it management
26:46autonomy within the framework of
26:48functional decentralization . So this is
26:51the real solution in my opinion , which
26:53could correspond to the case of
26:55privatization , because I heard
26:57privatization , I said or there
26:58privatization is a possibility but
27:00public service delegation . Yes , I am , I
27:03am ... I think that it is a , there is a ,
27:05a possibility . Because I think , I think
27:08, and the dean said it , and I think we
27:11are all unanimous on this : the State is
27:14simply helping itself to the SNPC
27:16coffers , which is in fact simply
27:18stifling this company , which is
27:21preventing this company , functionally
27:23speaking , from being able to function
27:26normally , from being able to refine oil
27:29, etc. , through Korea . So we will
27:31always be in the same difficulty as
27:34long as the State - uh , I have an
27:36economist here next door , he knows the
27:38principle of prohibition , State
27:40interventionism .
27:42>> You see , the State should not intervene
27:44in economic areas in serious countries .
27:47The economic sphere ,
27:48>> again , no , no , no , it shouldn't , it
27:52shouldn't ,
27:53>> the problem is that we are not in
27:54serious countries . No , I should finish .
27:57That's why I say that in serious
27:59countries , state interventionism in all
28:02aspects of the economy will inevitably
28:04cause problems in terms of management .
28:07Let me take the example of France . Why
28:09were independent administrative
28:11authorities created in France , for
28:13example ? Why were they created ? Because
28:15we prevented the government from
28:17interfering , the state from interfering
28:20, in areas that should not normally
28:22fall under its jurisdiction , because
28:25when the state intervenes , the state
28:27intervenes with all PPPs , what we call
28:30the prerogatives of public authority ,
28:32and can therefore be voracious , in fact
28:35, on a certain number of projects . I'm
28:40trying to qualify this , I want to
28:42clarify why the state , the strategic
28:44state , exists .
28:47>> In China , it is the power of the state
28:50that has made the country what it has
28:52ultimately become today . They gradually
28:56began to delegate . But in the Gulf
29:00countries , it is mostly the private
29:02sector that , now ... but at the beginning
29:04, Ding Ping asked the state to become a
29:07strategic state , and then , they began
29:09to liberalize gradually . But comparison
29:14is not reason : a state of 6 million
29:16inhabitants with so much potential , we
29:19are not going to turn to the private
29:21sector for that . How did it happen
29:24yesterday with Marian Guabi with
29:26Massamba de BA ? It was the state that
29:28created the state . Under Massamba de BA
29:32, under Marian , Guabi Yombi , see Sasou
29:341 first term , finally Sasou one , it was
29:36the state that allowed us to have an
29:38industrial fabric that allowed ... I have
29:40never known my parents not to be paid
29:42at the end of the month , but we were in
29:43a strong state that has nothing to do
29:45with today . It is a human problem today
29:49. We have to say things in our country ,
29:51madam : it's a human problem . The PCT
29:54State failed because you can see that
29:56for 30 years , the same ministers have
29:59remained in their positions . Someone
30:02can be a minister for 30 years and
30:04Denis Sassouesso , it's the same ones
30:06who keep them . And unfortunately , there
30:09is also a clientelist , let's say even
30:11tribalist side that doesn't say its
30:13name . And I say this without hesitation
30:16. We can't understand that all the
30:19financial authorities of a country can
30:21be managed by men from a single region .
30:27Tell me , is it in this region that
30:28there are only people who are the most
30:30intelligent to manage financial
30:31authorities . It might be good to
30:34emphasize something important :
30:37>> tribalism ,
30:38>> tribalism . And secondly , is Congo
30:40internally made up of regions , do these
30:42regions want to develop Congo ? No , that
30:45would be , they would do it . But why
30:47don't they do it ? Are we still taking
30:50this approach ? I'm moving away from
30:52economics to this sociological and
30:55political approach . The more you starve
30:59a population , the better you dominate
31:01it and the more you create a kind of
31:03hope that you never fulfill and so
31:05you're still in power . And so the
31:09problem of privatization , as the master
31:11said , will not arise because you are
31:14actually taking the plate away from who
31:17? To the governance , to the President
31:20of the Republic and his cronies . That's
31:23the problem with Congo . Despite the
31:26speeches , Congo does not want competent
31:29people . This could hurt
31:31>> Congolese leaders , not the population .
31:33>> Yes . Congolese leaders do not need
31:35competence . It would be because they
31:38have the impression that competent
31:40people would come and take their place ,
31:43but no , you simply open the debate and
31:45then we work together . It's not a nod
31:49that I'm making , but I'm noticing what
31:50I'm saying .
31:51>> But you don't have to be ashamed about
31:54that . You're a Congolese citizen . If
31:57you have skills to show off as a doctor
31:59like myself , you don't have to be
32:01ashamed to say that there are
32:02incompetences that need to be addressed
32:04, that's exactly what I'm saying .
32:06That's what I'm saying , but I'll
32:08clarify the thought anyway . So the real
32:11problem is that when we look at the
32:13Prime Minister , well , I have nothing
32:15against people who haven't done any
32:17economics , that's not the problem , but
32:19we get the impression that through
32:21slogans and formulas , he only pleases
32:24the president . He pleases the president
32:29. And who is the economy run by ? The
32:31economy is run by traders . The economy
32:33is run by international organizations .
32:35The economy is not driven by the
32:38Congolese themselves , but by the
32:40Congolese who use it as a means not of
32:42diversification but of acquiring income
32:45. Income is linked to debt . It becomes
32:49a natural resource . A curse , I'll end
32:51there . A curse of oil-producing
32:53countries . If you look at Gabon , you
32:54look at Congo , these are the two
32:56countries that are doing very badly in
32:58the CAC zone and that have a relatively
33:01high debt ratio , or rather debt-to-GDP
33:03ratio , and we are in the lead by 20
33:05points . So we are the worst of the
33:07worst performers in the CMAC zone .
33:10>> Very well , gentlemen . Now let's move on
33:12to water and electricity . So according
33:15to the Minister of Energy and
33:17Hydraulics , Mr. Bruno Jeanry Chari ,
33:19everything is failing in the Republic
33:21of Congo . Production , transport and
33:24distribution . The country only has
33:28about 600 MW , whereas it needs 3,000 .
33:31He also acknowledges governance
33:33problems at all levels . Gentlemen , once
33:36again , it feels like he is only making
33:38observations . Mr. Ben Luther ,
33:42>> we should congratulate ourselves on the
33:44fact that it is the minister
33:45responsible for the sector himself who
33:47can simply acknowledge the failure . It
33:50is a fact , it is an observation . We
33:53cannot deny this difficulty . You know ,
33:57madam , regarding water cuts and the
33:59neglect of electricity in Congo ,
34:01especially regarding the neglect of
34:03electricity , we have the impression
34:05that in certain areas darkness gathers
34:07every night . You see , whether it is in
34:10Brazzaville or in Pointe Noire , you see
34:12, one gets the impression that every
34:14single night the darkness meets up ,
34:16right there . Uh , that's true , the
34:20public response should be this , that is
34:22to say , first acknowledge the failure
34:25in governance , then find , find ,
34:27solutions , seek solutions . And so , uh ,
34:30that's where I welcome the fact that
34:32the Minister of Human Rights did not
34:35minimize this . So , uh , we have to
34:40realize something very important , which
34:42is that when there are power cuts , when
34:44there are power cuts , well , there are
34:46consequences on the daily lives of the
34:48Congolese people and on the economy .
34:52Those who have , for example , stocked up
34:54on provisions and so on will not be
34:56able to store their food . We are
34:59already in a country where the crisis
35:01is , uh , blatant , let's put it that way .
35:03Someone who managed to get their 2,000
35:06francs bought provisions . Because of
35:09the lack of electricity , he cannot
35:11store his food . Those who are in the
35:14economy , for example , those who run
35:17bakeries , hair salons , etc. , and those
35:19who also make pastries . So there is
35:22also a real loss of income on the part
35:24of the State since those who are in the
35:26economy still pay taxes , but they do
35:29not operate . They do not operate and
35:31therefore they cannot pay taxes . There
35:35is also a fact that must be noted when
35:38the Minister speaks of governance ,
35:40governance not only at the government
35:43level but also at the level of these
35:45public companies themselves , especially
35:48since you have areas where the
35:51>> government or the State , in any case ,
35:53does
35:54>> not necessarily have management
35:55autonomy . There is management autonomy .
35:59You have areas where there is not even
36:01electricity , where there has almost
36:02never been electricity , but people
36:04still pay bills . You see , you have
36:06areas where there is no water , the
36:08water does not flow , people still pay
36:10bills . You see ? So that is a problem ,
36:13it is a problem . I am pleased that the
36:15minister has become aware of all this .
36:17It is a problem that really needs to be
36:19corrected . But above all , it is a
36:22problem . And here again , the Prime
36:25Minister was right to want to authorize
36:28the lease of Earcé , for example . You
36:32see ? We saw the demonstrations . Oh yes ,
36:35they want to sell , uh , the company is
36:36public . We want to sell , we want to
36:38sell , we want to sell , we want to sell .
36:39There are people who have raised the
36:41argument of national sovereignty and so
36:43on and so forth . Okay . But this is done
36:46in all serious countries , in fact .
36:48Seriously . In France , for example , DF
36:50does not belong to the State . Arriva
36:53does not belong to the State . You see ,
36:55it is a delegation of public service .
36:58Even the SNCF , in terms of transport ,
37:00does not belong to the State . It is a
37:01public service delegation . So that was
37:04the idea of the Prime Minister . But hey
37:08, faced with the protesters and so on ,
37:11he agreed to reimburse the cost of the
37:14journey . But today , the situation is
37:17still not resolved , still not resolved .
37:20So , there is the production , the
37:22construction of infrastructure and so
37:24on that allows enough electricity to be
37:26produced , but there is also a problem
37:29with the transport of electricity . The
37:32problem is not only production , but
37:34also the transport and transformation
37:37of electricity into distribution ,
37:38according to him , because there is the
37:43>> construction of infrastructure that is
37:45underway , the Sunda and Kiteke dams , or
37:47even a cooperation , a binational
37:49project between Congo Brazzaville and
37:52the DRC on the construction of a
37:54hydroelectric power plant on the Congo
37:56River . These are projects that are
38:00underway . But will it be enough ? What
38:03the Congolese people expect is for
38:04electricity to reach their homes , quite
38:06simply , in their households . That's
38:08really it . However , when we look at
38:10cities like Brazzaville and Pointe
38:12Noire , there is still this problem of
38:14dilapidated infrastructure and
38:15facilities . I went to Congo . I visited
38:19almost all the departments , all the
38:21departments in March , in March during
38:23the presidential elections . I saw that
38:26in other cities , apart from Brazzaville
38:29and Pointe Noire , there were no
38:31problems . There was electricity . Some
38:34will tell me that it was perhaps just
38:36for the occasion , but even for the
38:37occasion , even for the occasion in
38:38Brazzaville , there were always power
38:40cuts .
38:41>> So there are fewer problems in the
38:42small towns . That's it .
38:44>> Well , there are fewer problems in small
38:45towns , in fact , where there is
38:46electricity 24 hours a day . That is a
38:49reality .
38:50>> That is a reality . If I am told that it
38:52was for the occasion , but in
38:53Brazzaville there was also the occasion
38:54of elections , there were still power
38:56cuts . So you see , that is what I
38:58observed , but I am even more pleased
39:00that the minister of the sector himself
39:03was able to identify this flaw in
39:05governance and I hope that he will be
39:07able to correct all of this .
39:09>> Disfimba .
39:10>> So here is a country that recently gave
39:12itself the slogan for its term of
39:16office of Mr. Denis Sasoueso : We must
39:18accelerate development . Well , I have
39:20never seen how we can accelerate
39:21development when we do not have
39:22electricity . Ridicule does not kill in
39:25our country . It must be emphasized .
39:27Secondly , the largest river runs
39:30through our necks , everything you can
39:32imagine . Ecuador passes through Maa . So
39:39we have two options : hydroelectricity
39:43or voltage or solar energy . And we woke
39:48up one morning , today , I don't know , 60
39:50years after independence . Listen to the
39:53minister : " Ah , we're waiting for Ma Ti
39:55to come and help us , oh the funds , I
39:57don't know what , the World Bank , oh
39:59this . " Well , he's an intelligent man ,
40:03he's a big brother whom I respect , but
40:05I want him to understand one thing at
40:08some point : he's been there as minister
40:10for almost 30 years , I think , otherwise
40:12he was already there as minister for 7
40:15years . Madam , there are three poles for
40:19electricity , the production pole . He
40:22himself said that it poses a problem ,
40:23but it's not us . They built the Mukou
40:28dam , built since Mathieu Mathieu Zalem
40:3174 MW . The Wesso dam that they just
40:37built there by Bouya , uh , 19 MW , Imbou ,
40:41120 MW . But this dam , it must be
40:45emphasized , has three turbines with an
40:48installed capacity of 100 MW . Since
40:52then , the two turbines have been out of
40:55order and the government has no
40:57capacity to plan . And finally , a gas
41:01plant , a real gas plant , that they had
41:03to build in 2010 there in Pila , which
41:06cost the Congo billions and it fell
41:09flat on its face . So , you can see that
41:12at the level of the production division
41:15, uh , when he talks about building
41:17infrastructure ,
41:18>> we always come back to corruption . And
41:20there , I am referring to a man . Mr.
41:21Buya who had promised that Imbou or
41:24Congo would no longer lack electricity ,
41:27that we would even sell electricity . So
41:29he sold false information to President
41:32Denis Sasou Ngesso and the Congolese
41:34people . But what is it really ? This is
41:37yet another fool's bargain where people
41:38have enriched themselves , and I'll go
41:40even further .
41:41>> And so these constructions are
41:43ultimately useless . But it is because
41:46they are useful , but the question is ...
41:49>> Because Imbou Mbou , it's not me who
41:52says it , there was one of the German
41:54experts who had demonstrated that Imbou
41:57should not be built there . The Sunda
42:01dam should be preferred , which had a
42:03much denser capacity , and there were
42:05already feasibility studies , what do
42:07you call them . But for reasons that are
42:11almost political , we would say , Imbolo
42:15was preferred to Sunda , and today they
42:18want to build , uh , Sunda . But better
42:23still , this Imboula dam was built by a
42:25Chinese company that did not have the
42:28expertise , so today out of three
42:30turbines , only two are working , you see
42:32. So there is a real political
42:35responsibility . And what about
42:38transport ? How much money has not been
42:40injected into transport issues ? I was
42:42in Brazav for 5 years . I saw the cables
42:44running from left to right . As usual ,
42:49they took money .
42:51>> So we always come back to corruption ,
42:53corruption and distribution . Master , I
42:55agree to the statement , but you must
42:57make your own . You don't have
42:59electricity , you're going to sell what
43:01you're going to sell , and what is the
43:03private sector that's going to come to
43:05a country where 80 % of the population
43:07lives on the threshold of above the
43:09only one .
43:12>> How are they going to pay for
43:14investment ? No , yes , but he's going to
43:17manage all that . An investor , it seems
43:20to me , he's going to first do a
43:22feasibility study , a market study to
43:25see if I can , can I find my way through
43:28my investments ? No , let's be serious ,
43:30let's be serious , all that's because
43:32he's
43:32>> not going to invest in a country where
43:34the electricity works well , that's a
43:35load of
43:35>> rubbish , but no , who's going to pay for
43:37his electricity ? No , no , no . But I'll
43:39go further . It's about the best , you
43:41know ,
43:42>> which is a
43:43>> hybrid company . EC is here , it's the
43:47oligarchs , the oligarchs in power who
43:49paid for the shares . I'll give you a
43:53name , Mr. Onzambe , who was the head of
43:55the portfolio at the Ministry of
43:57Finance . Conflict of interest , he went
44:00to buy shares in a company that was in
44:03the process of privatizing . You can see
44:05that we're back to total corruption . So
44:10the electricity system , or rather the
44:13electricity sector , for me , is in this
44:17state due to a lack of vision ,
44:20incompetence , poor governance and truly
44:23, uh , leaders whose sole objective is
44:27to pick their own pockets .
44:31>> That's what I'm finding . Yes . So in a
44:33single sentence , corruption is the
44:35basis of this crisis :
44:36>> corruption , poor governance and lack of
44:38vision . For example , in Sunda ,
44:41>> if Mr. Denis Sasou Ngesso was serious ,
44:43I'm sorry to say , he wasn't serious ,
44:45the day after Congo found itself with
44:47billions , we could have built the Sunda
44:49dam .
44:50>> And why didn't we do it ? We didn't . But
44:53we didn't do it because of choices , I'm
44:54telling you the truth , because of very
44:56good choices , that's
44:57>> all . It's for tribal choices simply
45:00because we are in the Cuilou region and
45:03in the imagination or simply in the
45:05Congolese subconscious , this part , uh ,
45:08benefited too much during colonization
45:11and after colonization . It was
45:13necessary and normal to develop other
45:16regions like the North region . The
45:18problem is , are these
45:20>> theories or is it really proven ? These
45:23are theories , wait , they are theories
45:25but they are often supported by
45:26practices . Otherwise , as Guy says ,
45:29there had been money , the project was
45:32feasible , achievable . Why wasn't it
45:34done ? Okay , that's the first reason .
45:36The second reason is the problem , which
45:38is linked to what ? It's linked , we're
45:42told , to clothing , transportation ,
45:44electricity , etc. But let's be serious .
45:48We've been independent for 66 years .
45:50We're only now realizing that there's a
45:53problem like this . And we've continued
45:56to live with what ? But with the
45:59materials left by whom ? By the settlers
46:01. And these are the same settlers that
46:03we criticize . These are the same
46:05settlers that we attack . Fortunately ,
46:06they're there . I want to say in a very
46:09provocative way that they're coming to
46:11give us a hand because we're incapable .
46:14We're incapable for the reasons that
46:16Guy highlighted . Corruption , theft ,
46:19bribery , and the idea that in fact the
46:24State , sorry , the general interest ,
46:26doesn't exist . It's
46:27>> primarily a private interest . So ,
46:29there's political talk about the
46:31general interest , but in practice it's
46:34a private interest . And this is a
46:37special interest , and I'll say it again
46:40today : there were hardly any
46:42entrepreneurs in these fields , in these
46:45technologies . Why is that ? Because
46:47everyone wants to get involved in
46:48politics . And why do we want to do
46:50politics ? It's the only place one gets
46:52rich in Congo . It's the only place
46:54where you have millionaire civil
46:56servants . That's the country as it is .
46:59So , I'll end by saying , we've
47:02electrified the Malou special economic
47:05zone . The head of state has visited ,
47:09and we've opened bottles of champagne .
47:11Let's be serious . But really , do you
47:13realize ? It's like when we have a kind
47:16of extended facility with the
47:17International Monetary Fund . That is to
47:20say , they give us money , they lend us
47:22money , they open bottles of champagne ,
47:24they're not being serious .
47:27>> Yes , very quickly . In Angola , the Loca
47:30dam with an installed capacity of 2,070
47:33MW and the Calculto Cabasa dam with an
47:36installed capacity of 2,172 MW . They
47:39gained independence 75 years later than
47:41us . They experienced I don't know how
47:44many years of war when there is
47:46political will and when there is
47:47governance , things get done . So in our
47:51country , we have stuck to rhetoric ,
47:53slogans and that's it . Gentlemen , very
47:57quickly before we end this program , it
47:59has been more than 100 days since the
48:01government formed in April 2026 has
48:03been in place . What is the assessment
48:05in your opinion ? I will start with you ,
48:07Mr. Ben Luther .
48:09>> So taking stock now , I think it would
48:11be perhaps to anticipate things ,
48:14perhaps to make observations .
48:16>> Yes , go ahead . An observation if you
48:18like .
48:18>> Well , an observation is the one we just
48:20made here . We are currently facing a
48:22situation where things are not working ,
48:24such as fuel , electricity , and water
48:26supplies . There are other areas as well
48:28.
48:29>> Especially with regard to basic needs ,
48:32i.e. electricity , water , fuel , and in
48:34the area of health itself , we have
48:36simply observed that there are huge
48:38shortcomings , that there is , in my
48:41opinion , a failure , quite simply . What
48:44we can see so far is that we cannot yet
48:46draw up a balance sheet . Drawing up a
48:49balance sheet simply means that the
48:51government has sat on its hands and
48:53done nothing . In truth , this is a
48:55halfway assessment .
48:56>> There you have it . Exactly . Well , if
48:57this is a halfway assessment , for the
48:59moment it means that we are not really
49:01in the process of accelerating .
49:02>> For the moment , we are not really in
49:03the process of accelerating . So , I
49:06think that there are a certain number
49:08of priorities that will have to be
49:10resolved ; in particular , I would like
49:13to say , first of all , rethink the
49:15social issue , the social issues of the
49:17Congolese , in fact , put the social
49:19issues of the Congolese at the heart of
49:21political priorities . At the heart of
49:24political priorities . The social issues
49:27of the Congolese people mean being able
49:30to have electricity , water , food , a
49:33salary , healthcare , etc. I think that
49:35is the first priority . The priority .
49:38And today , we can also note that it is
49:41not always possible to cast anathemas
49:43and so on . Today , the diversification
49:47of the economy , particularly with
49:49regard to agriculture , is becoming , all
49:52things considered , a reality . Recently ,
49:57we have seen with the opening up of the
49:59agricultural faith , we have seen that
50:01the Congolese have the capacity to be
50:03able to produce , to be able to produce .
50:06But here again , we need to redouble our
50:09efforts , because — and this is where I
50:11salute the Minister of Agriculture ,
50:14Professor Ngoubo , who is a man in the
50:17field — he is always in the field , and
50:19we are beginning to see the fruits of
50:22his policy at the head of this
50:24department . But there is still a lot of
50:27work to be done .
50:28>> Of course . Guim Mafimba ,
50:31>> well , I would like to have the same
50:33optimism as my younger brother , Dr.
50:36Teré , but unfortunately he is the
50:38Minister of Ngombo , the Minister of
50:40Soda and Corn , but you never see him on
50:43the market in Brazzaville . It's all
50:46about the slogans . But to answer your
50:48question ,
50:49>> in fact , I turn the question around and
50:51I prefer to look the Prime Minister in
50:53the eye , who is a brother . I know he is
50:55fighting , he has the will . But the
50:58situation is unfortunate . What is the
51:00question ? What sector can he name in
51:02Congo where it works ? He won't find the
51:05answer . He can fight as much as he
51:09wants , but in reality it's the impasse
51:11of a single-party PCT system . The only
51:16observation that can be made , to come
51:18to the conclusion : Congo has managed to
51:21cross the threshold of 9,000 billion
51:23CFA francs of criminal debt , for which
51:28those who are in charge today will be
51:30held accountable . And they should
51:32understand one thing : if they are not
51:34careful , social implosion will catch up
51:35with this country . Because a people ,
51:38you can excuse the term , dribble it
51:40once , twice , three times , but at some
51:42point they will say , well , that's
51:44enough .
51:45>> Very well . Lucien Pou ,
51:46>> the long-term prospects of the national
51:49development plan 26 31 but that's the
51:51long term .
51:53>> What interests the Congolese is their
51:55daily lives , but of course this daily
51:57life must be financed . So social
52:00mastery is very good , but social issues
52:03cannot be financed simply with debt .
52:06The observation is that at one point ,
52:09the GDP-to-GDP ratio had actually
52:12fallen more or less . Now , it has
52:15increased again . Why ? Because we are
52:17making no effort to diversify the
52:19economy . Diversifying the economy is
52:22all well and good , but we need to
52:24create an entire ecosystem , create
52:27skills , create productive structures ,
52:30and create jobs in order to generate
52:33real GDP and prevent financing from
52:36going solely through debt . Yes , for
52:39debt , but for productive investments
52:41and not for champagne . Thank you . Thank
52:44you , gentlemen . That's
52:46>> the end of this program . Thank you for
52:48watching . Enjoy the rest of our show on
52:51Global Africa Télésud .